Afternoon session with resident Emma O'Connor and Corinne Jones, detailing lack of fire safety information, mobility concerns ignored, absence of evacuation planning for disabled residents, and failures to provide personal emergency evacuation plans.
00:00:25 yes mr robert now have we got another witness we do mr chairman our next witness is emma o'connor thank you
00:00:45 is emma o'connor thank you good afternoon mr connor you're going to make the affirmation i think yes could you then read the words on the screen yes um i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i
00:00:56 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much indeed now you sit down and make yourself comfortable take your time
00:01:15 [Music]
00:01:23 sorry no it's right it's no rush
00:01:29 yeah okay you're right yes okay now before we before i invite mr robert to start putting questions can i just say that um
00:01:40 putting questions can i just say that um the sister fan hasn't got the transcript running
00:01:43 running um do you want me to get something in to look at it can you
00:01:52 okay um mr art mr stefan's transcript for some reason isn't running but she tells me she can manage without it for the time being so should we go on and we'll see how we
00:02:03 so should we go on and we'll see how we get on maybe sorted out at the next break
00:02:06 break yes thank you mr shem thank you i'm sorry about that
00:02:11 good afternoon it's o'connor yeah hi um can i start first of all by um expressing our thanks to you for coming uh to give evidence today
00:02:22 today your help and assistance for the inquiry is much appreciated what i want to do today is ask you some additional questions about your experience of living in grenfell
00:02:33 your experience of living in grenfell tower hopefully i will keep my questions short and simple but if at any time you don't understand a question or you'd like me to repeat it or put it in a
00:02:44 like me to repeat it or put it in a different way all you have to do is to tell me yeah can i also ask you just to try and keep your voice up yes i know it's a bit of a big room um but it's important that we hear you
00:02:56 but it's important that we hear you and it's especially important that the transcriber who's just sitting at your right can record your answers clearly and accurately so keep your voice up and try and speak slowly
00:03:09 you have given two witness statements to the inquiry i just want to take you to the first of those iws
00:03:17 those iws zeros please
00:03:21 this is the statement ms o'connor that you made for phase one of the inquiries proceedings and it's already part of the inquiry record so i don't need you to deal with any formalities
00:03:33 you to deal with any formalities in relation to that statement but we do need to do that for your second phase two statement yeah we bring that up
00:03:41 up that said iws401699 that's the first page of the statement if we go to the last page which is page eight
00:03:53 eight can you confirm for me that that's your signature there yes that's my signature and we can see that it's uh
00:04:00 it's uh dated the 25th of february 2020. have you had a chance to go through this statement recently uh sadly i haven't but is it is it do you remember making that statement yes and can you confirm that its
00:04:13 yes and can you confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes they are thank you well let's start off by going back to your first statement iws50121 please
00:04:26 statement iws50121 please which is page one of that as i said that's your phase one um statement but at the top you um set out in paragraph one some background
00:04:37 set out in paragraph one some background um and i just want to ask you a little bit about that so the position is that you and your partner luke towner lived in flat 171 in grenfell tower under a joint
00:04:51 171 in grenfell tower under a joint tenancy is that right yes and the flat was on the 17th floor wasn't it
00:04:55 wasn't it originally yes and was it in july 2012 that you moved into the tower i believe so yes and as you say there
00:05:06 i believe so yes and as you say there luke was your full-time carer is that right yes okay um if you look at paragraph three you've explained there that um
00:05:20 you say i am disabled and when luke and i moved into grenfell tower i needed to lean on a trolley for support and balance in order to walk now before you
00:05:32 walk now before you moved into tower did you sign a tenancy agreement uh yes we did and did you meet with someone from the tmo to sign that agreement uh yes could we have on the screen please
00:05:44 please tmo 406021
00:06:04 so i may have given the wrong reference it's tmoh406021 please
00:06:21 it's tmoh406021 please thank you um
00:06:25 this is um headed secure tenancy agreement
00:06:28 agreement mr connor if we go to page five please or page seven let's see
00:06:36 if we can make that as big as possible you can see there that it's uh carries doesn't it that's your signature and also luke's signature isn't it yes
00:06:47 also luke's signature isn't it yes could we go back to page five please
00:06:57 um now if you see one point one two it says the disability discrimination act 1995 defines disability as a physical or mental impairment which
00:07:08 as a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities and the question was asked do you consider yourself to have a disability now it's been blanked out on this but i
00:07:20 now it's been blanked out on this but i hope you'll take it from me that in relation to the you can you see the
00:07:25 the box applied to you and in relation to that you had ticked yes yes i i remember that now when you were completing this form
00:07:36 now when you were completing this form was it
00:07:36 was it were you sitting down with someone from the tmo and going through it um i can't remember whether it was actually done in the flat on um or in the office that used to be
00:07:48 um or in the office that used to be downstairs but did you did you and luke fill it by yourselves and then return it to the tmo or did someone from the tmo go through the form with you um i think it was done
00:08:02 um i think it was done in the presence of janice and you say janice
00:08:05 janice what's janice's surname i believe it maybe
00:08:09 maybe janice ray she was the um one of them to show us around the flat on the viewing date so it was someone called janice who showed you the
00:08:21 someone called janice who showed you the flat
00:08:21 flat yes okay um now when you were looking at this form was it ever explained to you why the
00:08:32 was it ever explained to you why the question was being asked um
00:08:37 personally i do not remember whether it was explained of why it was on the um form
00:08:47 um form um but you've obviously ticked yes as you told us um yes at that time was there any discussion between you and anybody from the tmo about providing support
00:08:58 about providing support for you because of your mobility issues um
00:09:02 um no not that i remember
00:09:06 and this is obviously in july to when you are
00:09:09 you are 2012 when you're moving into the flat yes
00:09:13 yes do you remember whether there was any discussion about how you would evacuate absolutely none
00:09:20 and when you moved in were you given any other advice about fire safety um no
00:09:29 um no i just remember seeing the signs on the um in the left area um can i come back to the signs at the moment please yeah um just um i asked you about
00:09:42 yeah um just um i asked you about whether there was um any discussion about evacuation and your answer was absolutely numb um is that is that something that did you actually raise that with anybody
00:09:53 you actually raise that with anybody at that time at the time no um i didn't uh sorry trying to put it in a way to understand it at the time we
00:10:06 in a way to understand it at the time we moved in
00:10:07 moved in i felt that the building was safe so it wouldn't need discussion at that point moment in time of just signing it
00:10:18 point moment in time of just signing it because we hadn't actually moved in yet at the moment of signing the document can i show you another document please it's
00:10:30 show you another document please it's tmo two zeros eight seven zero six six five
00:10:44 now this um miss o'connor if i explain it it's not a letter that was it's addressed to you it's a draft letter
00:10:52 letter a headed dear resident and you can see the heading is re-fire safety i don't want to or need to read out any bits of it to you it contains obviously advice on fire
00:11:04 it contains obviously advice on fire safety
00:11:05 safety um what my question is and it goes to the time that you and luke moved into your flat that at that time do you remember receiving a letter like
00:11:16 do you remember receiving a letter like this or similar to it no i've only seen this since yesterday when it was shown um on the inquiry thank you
00:11:28 um on the inquiry thank you um do you remember at that time receiving any documents concerning fire safety no that says that you don't remember or we
00:11:39 that says that you don't remember or we didn't receive any apart from the um the refurbishment uh newsletters well can i come back suppose in a moment
00:11:50 well can i come back suppose in a moment that's right um but just so that we are clear at the time that um you moved in did you have any documents
00:12:01 have any documents handed to you that contained advice about fire safety not regarding fire safety no now i told you we would come back to the question of the the fire notice because
00:12:13 question of the the fire notice because you mentioned that a few moments ago could we have please um iws
00:12:22 nine 401699
00:12:28 and can we go to page three
00:12:37 if we could um expand paragraph 15 please
00:12:45 i'm just going to read this out to you ms o'connor if i may yeah under the heading fire safety signage your statement says there was a fire safety sign by the lift
00:12:56 safety sign by the lift the sign told us to stay put in the event of a fire i always thought that i would not stay put as i could only exit the building by the lift due to my mobility issues if we go down
00:13:08 due to my mobility issues if we go down to the next page and look at paragraph 23
00:13:16 what you say there is the only fire safety advice i was aware of was stay put i was aware of this because of the sign next to the lift and janice also
00:13:28 next to the lift and janice also informed us and janice was the person who showed you the view is that right yes i'm sorry i didn't remember that bit that
00:13:37 that janice had informed us that it was a stay put policy okay and if i also draw your attention to paragraph 26 once we've got it on the screen what you say
00:13:47 you say is i did not think what would happen if there was a fire in the building i always assumed i would be able to use the lift there was no emergency evacuation procedure discussed with us
00:13:58 evacuation procedure discussed with us and no one from the tmo visited us about it
00:14:03 it um going back to the notice um can we have i just want to show you a a
00:14:10 a a photograph could we have iron cue
00:14:15 six zeros 93 on the screen please
00:14:23 now does that look like the fire notice that you saw by the lift the sign that you saw by the lift yes um it was only put there uh once the
00:14:34 yes um it was only put there uh once the refurbishment took place so before that were there any signs not in the left lobbies on the individual floors just in the um i believe the
00:14:48 just in the um i believe the notice board when you come through the first door before you get into the lift area so if we can break that down a little bit sorry the
00:14:59 sorry the so before the refurbishment there was a notice board yes and there was a sign on that notice board is that right and then after the refurbishment these signs appeared by the lift
00:15:10 signs appeared by the lift yes which flaws did you see these signs on
00:15:14 on um mostly ours which was originally the 17th but then changed to the 20th
00:15:25 changed to the 20th and if i accidentally got out of uh at the wrong floor then i would see them
00:15:31 them because i'd have to press the button and they were where the button was to cool the lifts thank you now you've made clear in your statements that you were aware of the staple
00:15:42 that you were aware of the staple policy yes why was it your plan to leave by the lift in the event of an emergency um well we um thinking of it and i know
00:15:55 well we um thinking of it and i know it's um
00:15:56 it's um not smart idea to use the lift um in that situation uh but it would have been
00:16:04 been my only means of escape because um traveling downstairs when everyone's panicking uh it's not really
00:16:15 uh it's not really it wouldn't it would it would usually take me um about half an hour to get down the stairs and maybe even longer to get up
00:16:26 but in both of your statements and i can take you to the paragraphs if you want you mention that that will make mention of the lift being broken and making complaints about the lifts so
00:16:38 and making complaints about the lifts so if there had been an emergency the lift wasn't working how were you how did you think you were going to be able to leave the building it would depend on whether
00:16:50 it would depend on whether i was out at present when the lift broke down
00:16:55 down for example one of the times i had to i was visiting my mum's place and the lift was broken
00:17:07 my mum's place and the lift was broken so i had to stay with her until they sorted to their left arm thank you can i show you another document please could we have
00:17:19 another document please could we have iws 401762
00:17:25 and page two of that document
00:17:37 it's upside down yep that's been sorted for us um this is the document headed as you can see miss o'connor tendency handbook
00:17:47 handbook and it's from the tmo and if i explain how it came to the inquiry it's been provided to us as a
00:17:55 a it's an exhibit to the phase two witness statement of another grenfell tower resident called mohamed rasool now when you moved into your flat in 2012 do you remember being given a
00:18:07 in 2012 do you remember being given a tenancy handbook no do you remember receiving a tenancy handbook at any time after moving in no this is the first time
00:18:19 no this is the first time that i've seen it so um just so that we're clear again
00:18:25 is it that at no point from the time moving in
00:18:30 moving in onwards were you given a tenancy handbook
00:18:33 handbook no no handbook was given to us at this um of this one no form of a handbook was ever given to
00:18:44 no form of a handbook was ever given to us
00:18:44 us thank you um did you know that the tmo had a website uh yes did you ever visit the website or use it in any way constantly to make complaints
00:18:58 um when you were using the the website did you notice whether or not it had advice about fire safety on it no there was um no links to
00:19:09 no there was um no links to view fire safety it was just their home page that with i believe it said make a complaint and it had other options to
00:19:23 it had other options to click on it whether to pay your rent online as well but never anything um regarding fire safety
00:19:30 safety um you say there were no links on it um did you actually go and visit the website to see if there was any fire safety advice on it um no because i wasn't informed that there was any
00:19:41 was any fire safety advice on their website so nobody had told you that you could find fire safety advice on that website no no they haven't they hadn't and when you visited it
00:19:52 you visited it it didn't appear to you couldn't see any links to that advice yes i saw zero links to any fire safety advice
00:20:01 advice um i want to just show you um just another document please cst 406
00:20:10 cst 406 750.
00:20:19 um if i just explain what this is miss o'conny can you see at the bottom that there's a
00:20:24 there's a an lfb logo yeah the page and the page is titled home fire safety guide for purpose-built flats and maisonettes and what it says you can see the heading if you have a fire do you
00:20:36 if you have a fire do you know your plan um
00:20:41 did you ever receive a copy of this leaflet posted through your flat door no
00:20:48 door no um did you ever come across leaflets like this in the communal areas of grenfell tower not that i remember um
00:20:58 you may have um if you were following the inquiries evidence uh yesterday um you may have um heard of of link magazine
00:21:09 um heard of of link magazine did you know about link magazine when you were living in grenfell tower um only because my um my mom lives in sheltered accommodation run by tmo
00:21:20 accommodation run by tmo so i saw the link magazines only there never in the tower so no link magazines came through your front door no um
00:21:32 front door no um when you visited your mother and saw the magazine there did you ever read it um not always
00:21:44 um not always it's mainly um from what i understood link magazine to have was just about their um their more elderly residents
00:21:56 um their more elderly residents and the associate associations the parties that they used to do so they would sometimes put pictures in of the residents
00:22:07 of the residents and people that were on the residence association would sometimes have pictures in there
00:22:14 did anybody tell you that you could find fire safety advice in link magazine no
00:22:25 um can we have on the screen please a rt402606
00:22:40 a rt402606 now um this is an example uh from july 2014
00:22:45 2014 of the grenfell tower regeneration newsletter and you can see that it's got the logo for the tmo and the logo for ryden on it yes
00:22:54 yes um so this newsletter was distributed to residents during the course of the refurbishment do you remember receiving leaflets
00:23:06 do you remember receiving leaflets headed grenfell tower regeneration newsletter sadly yes and and how did they how did they come to to to reach you uh they just uh pushed it to read the letterbox
00:23:17 it to read the letterbox and when they dropped through the letterbox would you read them um occasionally it would take a few days to
00:23:27 read it fully but we'd always glance through it
00:23:33 and what was your understanding of the purpose of these newsletters um for them to supposedly keep everyone updated on
00:23:44 supposedly keep everyone updated on um certain aspects of the refurbishment only the bits that they wanted to share with us well if we go to page two of this
00:23:55 well if we go to page two of this document please
00:23:58 and if we uh under the bottom there under the last sub the last heading we have is emergency fire arrangements if we just accept one second um could could is there any
00:24:10 one second um could could is there any chance we could um blank out um one of the pictures well if we i have a lot of anger towards um okay well um what uh well i don't think we need to
00:24:21 um what uh well i don't think we need to show it to you what i i just wanted to say about your attention no not at all i just wanted to draw your attention to the heading emergency fire arrangements yes now that newsletter which was in july 2014
00:24:34 is one of um two such newsletters that contained fire safety advice i'm just going to bring up the second one for you yes if you feel uncomfortable looking at
00:24:45 yes if you feel uncomfortable looking at it
00:24:46 it just tell me and we'll deal with it in a different way all right yes but let's bring up jrp six zeros 28 please
00:25:02 [Music] now this is headed may 2016. if we could go to page four please
00:25:13 um and just can you see that there's an arrow pointing to the stay put policy yes um
00:25:21 and it says the smoke detection systems have been upgraded and extended the fire brigade has asked us to reinforce the message
00:25:27 message that if there is a fire which is not inside your own home you're generally safest to stay put in your home to begin with
00:25:33 with the fire brigade will arrive very quickly for fire as reported don't think i need to read anymore but you've got two newsletters there one from 2014 one
00:25:44 two newsletters there one from 2014 one from 2016. were you aware that the newsletters did contain advice about fire safety um i probably skipped that bit um because i
00:25:58 skipped that bit um because i i was aware that it was it was this uh it was always put in there but it never it was just um it felt
00:26:09 it was just um it felt a copy and paste situation um that they would always put that in the um the uh the guy um
00:26:20 the uh the guy um the newsletter um would it be fair to say that for you miss o'connor your understanding about what the policy
00:26:31 your understanding about what the policy was in
00:26:32 was in if there was a fire in the tower came from those notices by the on the notice board and by the lifts yes and so that it was that source of information that made you aware of the state but policy
00:26:44 made you aware of the state but policy yes okay well can i move to a different topic but just take you back to your witness statement please it's your first witness statement we're going to look at
00:26:55 witness statement we're going to look at iws60121 please
00:27:06 iws60121 please and can we go to the next page and look at paragraph nine
00:27:18 sorry if i could just have a moment [Music]
00:27:38 um sorry i'm i'm i think i've i've given the wrong reference but it's there's a part of your um statement where you discuss visits um by the firefighters coming to
00:27:50 visits um by the firefighters coming to check your smoke alarms do you remember that yes
00:27:57 um now what you said um and we'll bring it up if you if you want me to but it said that you said london fire brigade came to our flat a few times
00:28:08 brigade came to our flat a few times over the period i lived at grenfell to check that our smoke alarms were working i think they were just doing their rounds we didn't call and ask them to come
00:28:17 come from what i can remember they only came round before the refurbishment not afterwards now can you remember how many times the firefighters turned up outside your door
00:28:29 door it must have been uh once or twice
00:28:35 and um did they was it did they limit themselves to just checking your smoke alarms or did they ask you about anything else uh it was
00:28:46 ask you about anything else uh it was mainly just limited to these smoke alarms [Music]
00:28:53 [Music] because when they came around my crotches weren't visible so they weren't aware of my disabilities and i didn't see fit seeing it fit to
00:29:04 it fit to explain to them
00:29:08 was there any reason why you didn't see fit to explain to the firefighters about your disability because this was before the refurbishment and i felt that it was safe because it was bricks
00:29:22 and your recollection is that after the refurbishment happened there wasn't one of these visits no not that i remember um let's just move on to a different
00:29:34 um let's just move on to a different topic in your two statements you refer both to rbkc and the tmo did you know that they were two separate organizations yes and what did you understand that
00:29:47 yes and what did you understand that the role of the tmo was in relation to grenfell tower that they took our rent and was aware sorry uh was the people to go to for repairs and
00:30:01 people to go to for repairs and complaints and what was the responsibility of rbkc then uh to put put us in touch with tier mode to be housed under them
00:30:15 um did anyone ever explain to you or luke how the tmo operated um not that i can remember so either at the
00:30:26 not that i can remember so either at the time that you moved in or subsequently did you ever were you ever given information that the tmo was managed by a board
00:30:34 a board which included tenants and leaseholders um
00:30:37 um with uh because the tower wasn't our first property with uh tmo no no one explained that the first time um and and did you ever get any
00:30:49 um and and did you ever get any information coming through your door explaining um how you could become involved in the tmo uh no only uh in the tower and what was that information then uh it was that i could uh join the
00:31:03 uh it was that i could uh join the um the um
00:31:06 um the um be a member of tmi um did you in fact join the tmo no was there any reason why you didn't want to become involved i felt that i
00:31:18 want to become involved i felt that i wouldn't have been taken seriously well why didn't you think you would be taken seriously um because of when when i put in complaints they wouldn't
00:31:31 when i put in complaints they wouldn't take him
00:31:32 take him seriously and it was a lot i was more i was still shy of joining i'd like to keep myself to
00:31:44 myself you mentioned that when you put in complaints they wouldn't take them seriously yes um could you expand on that a little
00:31:55 yes um could you expand on that a little please
00:31:56 please in what way were your complaints not being taken seriously it was always
00:32:03 on occasions when you had antisocial behavior complaints or noise complaints they would always say
00:32:14 noise complaints they would always say write this down on a piece of paper
00:32:19 and i will send you
00:32:23 incident diaries
00:32:27 and uh they they didn't really like coming out to you
00:32:33 you um and uh
00:32:37 um and uh on the phone as well they they were quite rude sometimes um i even got accused of being luke's grandmother because i needed to
00:32:49 luke's grandmother because i needed to have i needed to know when the lift would be fixed so i could get back up up to the house
00:32:59 um can i ask you one question some questions
00:33:02 questions about your something you've written in your police statement so can we have uh met four zeros seven three five seven please on the screen
00:33:20 so this is uh miss o'connor a statement that you've made to the police and if we go to the second page please
00:33:32 and we look at the second to last paragraph
00:33:36 paragraph what you say is no one from tmo updated us with regards to the renovations and i recall receiving letters from the residents association expressing concern over the works both
00:33:47 expressing concern over the works both at the beginning and during but neither i nor luke attended any of the meetings so you said that no one from tmo updated
00:33:58 so you said that no one from tmo updated you with regards to the renovations
00:34:03 were you aware of meetings that the tmo were holding with residents um [Music]
00:34:11 [Music] only the ones that were put in the regeneration newsletters and did you attend any of those meetings
00:34:22 and did you attend any of those meetings no because um i was far too shy and with other difficulties in attending were you ever asked to complete a questionnaire about
00:34:34 complete a questionnaire about the refurbishment um i think on their workmanship but that that was about it
00:34:45 the tmo held a number of drop-in sessions during the course of the refurbishment did you ever attend those drop-in sessions
00:34:53 sessions um i only knew about the ones in the meeting room and the show flat but no we didn't attend um did anybody ever come and visit you
00:35:06 um did anybody ever come and visit you from the tmo to discuss the refurbishment with just you and luke in your flat no um did you ever ask if someone could come along and speak to you um no not with the regeneration
00:35:22 not before that but they they did come a lot of the time unannounced it was like they would come and knock on your door
00:35:33 your door and check if everything was all right which
00:35:37 which i felt was a bit um
00:35:43 i don't know how to explain it it's it wasn't exactly nice for people that don't like to be disturbed
00:35:52 disturbed like we just wanted to um if a problem arose then we would bring it up with them but to just be disturbed
00:36:04 disturbed um on the off chance that we've written was a bit rude and um a bit needy
00:36:14 did anyone from the tmo ever ask you um what your preferred way of being consulted was no now you also mentioned in the passage
00:36:25 no now you also mentioned in the passage i read out about getting letters from the residents association which residents association are you referring to there um i believe that was the one
00:36:38 um i believe that was the one that was created by ed so is that the grenfell compact um i think so i remember him coming to our door to
00:36:49 i remember him coming to our door to raise a few issues and get our opinion of the issues raised [Applause] um there was a residence association
00:37:02 um there was a residence association called the lancaster west residents association did you ever hear of them um not to my knowledge when we were in the tower but it's recently come to light of
00:37:13 tower but it's recently come to light of like hearing about the groups or through the
00:37:17 the inquiry but at the time that you were living there that they weren't a group that that you knew of no we didn't really go out or socialize much we had um we just
00:37:28 just uh socialized with people with um dogs because we uh used to take our dog for a walk so um
00:37:44 if we go back then um to your uh first inquiry statement iws five zeros one two one please and page three
00:37:56 if we look at paragraph fifteen um five lines down there's a sentence that begins um accessing the building and you you say
00:38:07 accessing the building and you you say there miss o'connor accessing the building was more difficult for us during the refurbishment the builders built a temporary entrance near the ambulance loading bay which was accessible only via stairs
00:38:20 which was accessible only via stairs that temporary entrance was in place for nearly three years i complained to the tmo but they said they couldn't do anything about it it concerned me given my health and mobility problems because in the event
00:38:31 mobility problems because in the event of an emergency it would be more difficult for me to get in and out of the building to the ambulance loading bay now you mentioned then that access
00:38:42 now you mentioned then that access was was um only via stairs yes given your health difficulties how were you able to manage or were you able to manage those stairs uh very difficultly um i was
00:38:56 uh very difficultly um i was i'd have to go step by step and when you've got patient transport waiting
00:39:04 waiting down in the base it's not very helpful because occasionally they
00:39:12 they some drivers are calm and relaxed and others are really really pushed to the limits and want you there immediately
00:39:25 and that was the reason why because uh the need to to um make sure you were down in time for the driver was that the reason why you were
00:39:34 you were needing to get down to the ambulance loading bay yes now you explain in that paragraph that you you complained to the tmo who did you complain to
00:39:45 to the tmo who did you complain to um i believe it was their um their complaint system um i did it i did do phone calls as well as
00:39:57 did it i did do phone calls as well as completing the online form so was that the two ways you used to make a complaint either a phone call or an online form yes
00:40:08 um sticking with this um statement can we just go back a page and look at paragraph 12 please
00:40:20 can you see paragraph 12 because what you say there miss o'connor is our front door was not changed in the time that we lived in the flat it did not close automatically
00:40:31 it did not close automatically just so that we're clear from the time that you moved in to the flat in july 2012 was your door always like that did it did not close automatically yes
00:40:42 did it did not close automatically yes it was uh always like that um did anyone from the tmo or elsewhere tell you that your front door should be able to close automatically
00:40:53 able to close automatically no not that i'm not that i can remember and did you know at the time that is before the fire that your front door was supposed to have a device so that it would shut
00:41:05 have a device so that it would shut automatically no i wasn't aware of those um details and so the fact that your door
00:41:15 did anyone tell you that if your door didn't shut automatically it was something you had to report to the tmo no um
00:41:25 did anyone ever come to your flat and ask to access your flat so that they could inspect the flat front door no there was never an inspection of the
00:41:36 no there was never an inspection of the front door so did anybody ever knock on your door and introduce themselves as a fire risk assessor
00:41:42 assessor no never
00:41:46 mr chairman um those are all the questions i want to put to miss o'connor but if i could ask for a short break so that you can see if there are any other questions please yes well mr connor mr rama thinks he's
00:42:00 yes well mr connor mr rama thinks he's reached the end of his questions but he needs a chance just to check that and we also need to provide an opportunity for other people who are not here to suggest questions so we will take a break now we'll
00:42:12 break now we'll we'll come back at five to three if that's all right yes that's fine and then at that stage we'll see whether there are any more questions we would like to put to you okay all right so if you go with the archer you can
00:42:23 so if you go with the archer you can take your time there's no rush and um we'll see you at five to three okay
00:42:28 okay thank you
00:42:40 and while we're out of the room could i put in the plea to someone on the technical side please to get
00:42:47 get resistance
00:42:51 transcript running good thank you five to three minutes
00:56:07 yes would you ask mr connor to come back in please
00:56:28 so
00:56:35 all right yes let's see if there's any more questions for you yes mr robert two short matters i hope mr chairman um could we have on the screen please
00:56:45 iws401707
00:56:55 okay if we could go to the next page please
00:56:58 please um ms o'connor this is a letter that you've exhibited to your witness statement it's dated the 11th of january 2012 and it's headed housing application
00:57:10 and it's headed housing application health and disability assessments so it's before you moved in to grenfell tower if we go to the bottom what it says is your case has been referred to senior manager in relation
00:57:22 referred to senior manager in relation to the current level of support needs presenting your total housing points will be confirmed when your case has been discussed in full by a senior manager
00:57:30 manager and then you're told if you have any questions to contact the common housing register team by calling and you're given a number now in relation to this i asked you earlier about the support that tmo might
00:57:42 earlier about the support that tmo might have given you because of your disability um looking at that did off the back of this letter was there any did any senior manager come back to
00:57:53 any did any senior manager come back to you or was there any change in the level of support that you were given um once we'd accepted the property there was no additional support that i remember receiving
00:58:07 that i remember receiving thank you um second matter do you remember i asked you um you mentioned in your statement to janice yes and when i asked you you said you thought it might be janice ray yes is it possible that it could have
00:58:18 yes is it possible that it could have been janice jones who was a neighborhood officer at grenfell tower if there was two genesis then yes it could be a possibility but when i say janice jones does that
00:58:29 jones does that ring a bell with you at all um i just remember her as janice um i honestly cannot remember her second name that's right i know i could identify her
00:58:40 that's right i know i could identify her by a picture but that's all that i can do we can leave it there miss o'connor thank you very much and thank you again for uh coming to give evidence
00:58:52 again for uh coming to give evidence today it's been very helpful so i have no further questions and i want to thank you as well mr connor on behalf of the panel and myself for coming to give evidence making yourself
00:59:03 coming to give evidence making yourself available to do that it's been very helpful to hear from you thank you i'm grateful to you for coming um could i add one thing sorry yes um i don't think it's fair that we
00:59:16 i don't think it's fair that we uh were allowed not we that all these uh corporate companies were allowed to
00:59:28 uh corporate companies were allowed to um be given the choice to choose what price tag on our lives should be um i i just
00:59:39 should be um i i just lost the uh possessions thankfully not my life but um my heart goes out too
00:59:50 [Music]
00:59:53 my fellow neighbours and braved we fight uh we fight this together and we've got so much support and
01:00:06 and we've got so much support and thank you for the
01:00:12 the opportunity to speak
01:00:19 i've been waiting to say that for since phase one so thank you yeah well well done thank you for coming to talk to us it's been helpful as we say very
01:00:30 to us it's been helpful as we say very helpful
01:00:32 helpful and i hope you feel a little bit better for having had the opportunity to say all that
01:00:37 all that absolutely i did have more to say but i didn't want to take up much more time yeah that's right thank you very much indeed right well we don't have any more questions so you're free to go if you'd
01:00:48 questions so you're free to go if you'd like to and um thank you you go with the usher she'll look after you but you can take your
01:00:54 time you have a good day thank you very much
01:01:08 now mr rowett i i understand that you uh it would be convenient to read some more evidence into the record before we come to our last witness is that right yes we've we've got a little
01:01:19 that right yes we've we've got a little bit of time mr chairman before that the next and last witness so i'd like to find may just to continue reading and this is again um phase two evidence from uh bereaved relatives
01:01:30 from uh bereaved relatives if i could please have on the screen
01:01:36 iws401757 [Applause] this is the phase two witness statement of ahmed el gawari and if i take it to page 13
01:01:50 and if i take it to page 13 please
01:01:53 the statement is dated the 27th of february 2020. it is signed with a statement of truth and so i ask that it be admitted into the record mr chairman as you'll remember from
01:02:05 mr chairman as you'll remember from phase one uh mr el gawari's mother elsa and his
01:02:09 and his sister mariam lived in flat 196 on the 22nd floor of grenfell tower and they both died on the night of the fire
01:02:17 fire the family had lived in the tower for almost 30 years and mr el gawari's sister
01:02:22 sister was 27 years old and she'd lived there all of her life in his phase two statement mr gawari speaks of his mother's health problems and if we could look please at page seven
01:02:38 and just expand paragraphs 19 and 20 thank you
01:02:42 thank you what mr el ghuari says there is my mother esther el gawari had a complex range of health problems which resulted in difficulty walking and an inability to climb a high number
01:02:54 and an inability to climb a high number of stairs without assistance and her hands were also affected resulting in a lack of dexterity problems meant she could not carry anything but light bags
01:03:05 anything but light bags and would have to place a heavier bag on her wrist or forearm in order to carry it
01:03:10 it the difficulties my mother experienced as a result of her disability were known by the tmo and the tenancy information form dated 24th of june 2015 so just before the works got underway i believe
01:03:22 underway i believe which i exhibit here in and the exhibit reference is then given this records that my mother had a physical disability had support needs and mariam was her primary carer
01:03:34 primary carer it would have been evident that she could not climb stairs in the event of a fire
01:03:38 fire it appears that my mother was present when this form was filled in see box one on page two as i have mentioned
01:03:45 mentioned my mother was a proud woman who did not like talking about her disabilities and what she could not do she's not appear to have said that she can only get to the upper floors if there was a lift
01:03:56 there was a lift or at any rate the form has not been filled in that respect she would have needed to use the lift and i believe that must have been clear to the person completing the form
01:04:07 to the person completing the form the next paragraph continues she lived on the 22nd floor and liked doing so but relied on the lift if this was out of order she was trapped in the flat at no point did anyone talk to my mother
01:04:18 at no point did anyone talk to my mother about what she should do or where she should go in the event of a fire no plans appeared to have been made if i can stop reading there but turn now to evidence concerning
01:04:29 but turn now to evidence concerning hesham rahman um hasham rahman had moved into grenfell tower in 2012. he lived alone in flat 204 on the 23rd floor
01:04:40 floor family members live close by on the lancaster west estate his cousin noha el baghdad baghdadi provided the inquiry with a phase one witness statement and she's
01:04:51 witness statement and she's provided a second witness statement for phase two
01:04:54 phase two and i want to just read the section from that statement which deals specifically with mr rahman's vulnerabilities if i could have please iws zero zero zero
01:05:07 iws zero zero zero four zeros one five three five please
01:05:14 if we go to the last page of that statement
01:05:19 it's a fourteen page statement on the last page we see that it's dated the 17th
01:05:23 17th february 2020 it's signed and it carries a statement of truth and i ask that it be admitted into the record if i could take us back to page two and paragraph seven please
01:05:44 paragraph seven starts hesham had diabetes and he had serious mobility problems because of this this was the case before he moved into grenfell tower although it worsened over
01:05:55 grenfell tower although it worsened over the years
01:05:56 the years it would have been obvious to someone meeting him that he had mobility problems
01:06:00 problems i remember being concerned about him being on the top floor of the tower i remember he said that the flat had an amazing view from there i think he shouldn't have been offered a flat on the top floor given his health
01:06:11 flat on the top floor given his health i don't remember hisham telling me that his health had been assessed in any kind of way by rbkc before he moved into the flat
01:06:20 i don't think they asked him about his health or considered that he would be reliant on the lifts because hesham never mentioned to me that they had before he moved in and if he had told me that neither i or another family member would have been
01:06:31 another family member would have been involved with this he would always involve me or other family members in meetings like these and if a meeting with rbkc all the tmo had taken place i expect he would have asked someone from the family to attend with him
01:06:43 from the family to attend with him as far as i'm aware no one ever asked him if his flat was suitable for his health needs if we could move forward in this statement please to paragraph 10
01:06:56 that reads knowing hasham he would have been happy to talk about his health problems to rbkc or the tmo he was open about his struggles with pain and the difficulties he had walking upstairs
01:07:06 upstairs i'm sure he would have explained what his health was like had he been given the opportunity anyone meeting hesham would have been aware that he had health problems and this affected his mobility because you could see this
01:07:18 you could see this again if we could just move forward to paragraph 13 please
01:07:25 rb casey and the tmo did know or should have known that hashem had a disability that he had mobility problems some thought should have been given as to how he would get down and exit the tower from the 23rd floor in the event of an
01:07:37 from the 23rd floor in the event of an emergency
01:07:38 emergency and if we go to the next page and paragraph 14 please that paragraph reads
01:07:46 reads if the lifts in grenfell tower were both out of order which would happen on occasions then hashem would not be able to leave his flat because he found walking down the stairs was too much for him
01:07:57 stairs was too much for him if he did have to walk down the stairs he would have to do so very slowly and he would shake walking up to the 23rd floor was too much for him and he couldn't do that that is all i propose to read from that statement but could i
01:08:09 from that statement but could i um as finally just mention phase two statements um provided by other family members of hisham rahman and the first of those is at um and we don't need to bring these up but it's
01:08:20 up but it's at um iws 401 and that is the phase two statement of um
01:08:28 um uncle muhammad raghav we also have at
01:08:34 iws401937 the phase two statement of shafika ragab who is hesham's aunt and the person who raised him after the death of his own mother
01:08:43 mother at um iws401783 we find the phase two statement of karim mussoli
01:08:51 mussoli hisham's nephew who was often looked after by his uncle as a boy and finally at iws 401750 is the phase two statement of hashem's
01:09:03 is the phase two statement of hashem's cousin nashwa abdel kadeh who describes hashem as being like a brother to her those are statements of family members and i would ask at this point that they are all
01:09:12 are all admitted into the record mr chairman that's all i would propose to read at this point and i'd ask that perhaps if we could just take a break now so that we can make arrangements for the next witness that
01:09:24 arrangements for the next witness that would be a a good time to do that wouldn't it if we said um 25 past three will that that should do that shouldn't in inconvenience the next wednesday
01:09:35 wednesday yeah all right thank you well we'll rise now then and break until 25 past three thank you
01:24:49 yes mr robert now we've got our last witness for the day is it yes mr chairman our last witness is corrine jones good thank you
01:25:13 good afternoon jones you're going to make the affirmation i think is that right
01:25:16 right yeah so could you read the words on the screen please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
01:25:27 nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
01:25:37 thank you yes when you're ready mr robert thank you mr chen um good afternoon miss jones good afternoon
01:25:44 afternoon um can i start by first of all by uh thanking you for coming to the inquiry to give evidence today and for assisting us with our investigations and your contribution is very much appreciated
01:25:56 appreciated what i hope to do as i start to ask you questions is to keep my questions short and simple but if at any time you have any difficulty understanding a question
01:26:07 question or you'd like me to repeat it or rephrase it in a different way then do ask me and i will do so if you feel there's any time that you need a break please let me know okay can i also just ask you though
01:26:20 okay can i also just ask you though however just to remember to keep your voice
01:26:21 voice up and to speak slowly the reason for that is
01:26:25 that is if you can just see to your right there's the transcriber and she has to record your answers clearly and accurately okay we just need to deal with some formalities before we get into the
01:26:37 formalities before we get into the questions and the first thing i want to do is just to bring up the first page of your first witness statement to this inquiry which is at iws i think six zeros 33.
01:26:51 which is at iws i think six zeros 33. this is the statement you gave for the purpose of phase one of the inquiry um and it's already gone into the inquiry record it's been published on its
01:27:02 record it's been published on its website
01:27:03 website but if i show you now your second statement the one that you've made for phase two
01:27:08 phase two that's at iws401548 please if we could go to the last page of that which is page 23. miss jones could you confirm that
01:27:20 23. miss jones could you confirm that that is your signature please yes that's my signature and um have you had a chance to read this statement recently
01:27:27 recently yes can you confirm that its contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes it's true
01:27:35 what i would say to begin with is that everyone has had a chance to read your statements and so what i hope to do today is just to ask you some additional questions
01:27:46 to ask you some additional questions about your experience of living in grenfell tower um if we could just start perhaps with some background um in june 2017
01:27:57 um in june 2017 you were living in flat 145 of grenfell tower weren't you i was yes and what floor was that on the 17th and you had moved into that flat in july
01:28:08 and you had moved into that flat in july 2016.
01:28:09 2016. yeah correct um and you live there with your partner and your two sons i did yes now just before we can i just want to clarify one
01:28:20 before we can i just want to clarify one thing with you and that's um we will may need to refer to your two sons
01:28:25 sons but i'm i'm not going to refer to them by name
01:28:28 by name but instead as elder sun and middle son okay
01:28:32 okay now if i just bring up please um the second page of your phase two witness statement which is iws four zeros one five four eight
01:28:44 and if we look particularly at uh para six and seven please
01:28:53 now you've explained in paragraph six um how uk and seven how you came to live in grenfell tower and if we look at paragraph seven you say that you received a call on the
01:29:05 you say that you received a call on the 26th of may 2016 from nana kaku turkson a housing officer at rbkc and you were made a direct offer of a
01:29:16 and you were made a direct offer of a flat in grenfell tower now again just to be clear i'm not going to ask you about how you came to be allocated a flat in grenfell tower but what i want to do is to ask you some
01:29:28 but what i want to do is to ask you some questions about the concerns that you raised at the time about your middle son
01:29:34 if we look please now at paragraph eight and nine
01:29:41 if we look at our first line of paragraph eight you say there that you viewed the flat with someone called moira mcdonald who was from
01:29:49 was from rbkc housing and then if we go on to paragraph nine you say this at the time of this viewing my middle
01:30:00 at the time of this viewing my middle son was having mobility difficulties and his joints would swell when walking my son's consultant sent an email to the council to explain my son's difficulties i also emailed nana and the housing
01:30:12 i also emailed nana and the housing nomination teams on 30th of may 2016. i exhibit to this statement at cj1 the email i sent which confirms my son's mobility difficulties and my concerns regarding
01:30:23 difficulties and my concerns regarding the lifts
01:30:25 the lifts nana got back to me to say there are two working lifts in the building he stated there would always be a working lift available before i ask you any questions can we just look at the email that you
01:30:36 can we just look at the email that you sent in may 2016 and that is at iws 401543
01:30:48 and that is at iws 401543 okay could we just um expand the the part where that's it thank you so we can see miss jones it's stated monday the 30th of may 2016.
01:31:01 and you say um as per my telephone conversation with amy on friday the 27th of may
01:31:07 of may 2016 in support of being reconsidered for an alternative and suitable housing offer
01:31:13 offer please find attached letter from moorfield eye hospital provisionally diagnosing diagnosing my youngest son with surgeon jogren syndrome on wednesday
01:31:25 jogren syndrome on wednesday well you can correct me sjogren sjogren thank you very much on wednesday the 25th of may he was referred to a sjogren specialist at great ormond house street hospital requested by dr mann a
01:31:36 hospital requested by dr mann a pediatrician at chase farm hospital in addition we have an appointment at moorfield eye hospital you then go on in the next paragraph two symptoms you say of two symptoms of the syndrome are joint pain
01:31:47 syndrome are joint pain and muscle weakness my son has suffered with joint pain to a point of being unable to walk living in a high-rise building with the undeniable possibility of the lifts breaking down from time to time
01:31:58 breaking down from time to time and having to climb 17 would not be conducive to health and you then say this is something that we are still uncovering as and you refer to your son has only started presenting with these symptoms
01:32:09 started presenting with these symptoms since march 2016 and you say about the syndrome that is very rare in children and typically can take average of seven years to diagnose so at that time there was just a
01:32:22 so at that time there was just a provisional diagnosis yes but your son was already experiencing symptoms that meant he had difficulty walking he was yes
01:32:34 now if we go back to your statement and let's look at paragraphs um seven eight and nine again please thank you
01:32:44 you now we've seen the um what you communicated to the housing office at rbkc we've seen your email at the time that you were raising these
01:32:56 at the time that you were raising these concerns about your son's mobility did anyone at rbkc mention to you that you could ask the tmo to prepare a personal emergency evacuation plan for
01:33:07 a personal emergency evacuation plan for your middle son
01:33:10 just one point going back to moira mcdonald
01:33:14 mcdonald what was it that made you think she worked for rb casey housing i don't know to be honest um
01:33:25 i don't know to be honest um i can't actually say i don't know i think i think the information we have is that she actually worked for the tmo okay is that a possibility that yeah it's mostly just a mistake on my behalf
01:33:36 it's mostly just a mistake on my behalf thank you because i spoke sorry because i spoke with rbkc as well as tmo and obviously this was before i moved in sometimes i was confused as to who worked for who
01:33:47 worked for who so um at the time and before you moved in
01:33:52 in were you communicating your concerns about your son's mobility both to our bkc
01:33:56 bkc and to tmo no it was just rbkc now when moira mcdonald carried out the viewing
01:34:05 viewing did she at that time provide you with any documents no um
01:34:13 no um and did she have any discussion with you about um your concerns over accessed in grenfell tower no
01:34:26 if i could just show you another document and it's tmo 865
01:34:32 tmo 865 707
01:34:40 this isn't a letter that's addressed to you miss jones but it's dated may 2013 and um if we go to the it will if we just you'll see at the top
01:34:51 will if we just you'll see at the top that it's headed fire safety in your home
01:34:54 home and if we go to the next page you'll see at the bottom that it's signed off by janice ray tmo health safety and facilities manager
01:35:05 tmo health safety and facilities manager now at any time either at the time that you were moving into your flat or subsequent to that move
01:35:16 move did you ever receive a letter from the tmo about fire safety no
01:35:24 um can i show you another document please yeah tmo double0093066 please
01:35:54 sorry um i think there's a problem bringing up the the reference so i'll i'll just move on and we can come back to that point um if we could have uh miss jones's
01:36:07 um if we could have uh miss jones's statement uh back on the screen it's um can we go to page five please
01:36:19 if we just go to the bottom of the page paragraph 24 and then we'll go over to the next page as i read it out what you said and this is a now after you've about your experience after
01:36:31 you've about your experience after you've moved into the building but you say there miss jones one thing i never liked was how long it took us to get out of the tower
01:36:39 the tower the lifts were very busy in the mornings and it could take up to seven minutes to get out of the tower as most of the times
01:36:45 times the lift was packed to capacity just take it over to the next page which meant waiting for the lift to go to ground and come back up
01:36:56 to ground and come back up or wait for the other lift most of the times we would go down the stairs because it would take so long by lift i had issues living in the 17th floor because of this
01:37:07 because of this i was concerned because of the time it took us to get out of the flat given the issues of the lift and my son's conditions the joints in his leg would sometimes get stiff
01:37:17 get stiff and i would have to carry him when we use the stairs i sent an email to housing nominations at rbkc about this they did not raise this as an issue that would affect our ability to escape
01:37:28 would affect our ability to escape in a fire now again just to be clear the email that you're referring to there is that
01:37:34 is that the same as the email we just looked at a few moments ago correct yes so um the position was and correct me if i'm wrong but you your
01:37:46 and correct me if i'm wrong but you your son had been given a provisional diagnosis which affected his ability mobility um that was there when you viewed the flat yes you then moved into the flat
01:37:58 moved into the flat and you had as you set out there difficulties with the lifts i did yes did you at any time after moving in contact anyone to the tmo about the
01:38:09 contact anyone to the tmo about the difficulties your family was experiencing i did not no um did you contact anyone at rbkc
01:38:17 at rbkc no not after i moved in was there any reason that you decided not to do that i just didn't think it would make a difference to be honest
01:38:24 honest it's not that i couldn't be asked or you know just
01:38:28 know just didn't want to do it it's just that every time i spoke with the council about issues and i'd spoken to the council about many issues over the years nothing was done they seemed to be very
01:38:39 nothing was done they seemed to be very insensitive so i just didn't think that anything would change if i was to update them and let them know that i'm still having issues because i'm i'm in a tower now what is the chances of me
01:38:50 of me being rehoused in this situation in my personal opinion i think it was pretty slim and so um does it come down to you you
01:39:01 and so um does it come down to you you just
01:39:02 just did not think it was worthwhile to raise the issue
01:39:05 the issue i just didn't think that they would have responded in a way that i would have liked
01:39:10 liked so you we showed you oh we looked earlier
01:39:15 earlier at um the exchange that you had with nana the housing officer about the issues of working lifts and what the paragraphs we're looking at now is your
01:39:26 we're looking at now is your recollection of of problems with the lift so on a daily basis
01:39:31 basis given those problems how were you coping with your
01:39:34 with your middle son and his mobility issues most of the time i live in in the tower he was okay um i mean he has an autoimmune disease so he
01:39:45 he usually only presents symptoms when he's having a flare-up so majority of the time he was okay but there was a few occasions where he did have
01:39:52 have subtle stiffness in his joints um and those times you know we had to take it a bit more careful sometimes as i've put in my statement the lifts weren't working
01:40:04 the lifts weren't working so we would go down the stairs and i've just put him on my back [Music]
01:40:11 [Music] um you
01:40:15 um you said that um moira mcdonald didn't provide you with any documents but um from the time that you moved into the
01:40:26 the tower did anybody from either alby casey or the tmo come to discuss or seek to discuss with you
01:40:34 a personal evacuation plan for your son no not once
01:40:40 um can i now um take you back to your um first statement please um and that's iws i think six zeros 33
01:40:52 um and that's iws i think six zeros 33 and page two
01:41:05 um i want to just uh direct your attention to paragraph four where you speak about signing the tenancy agreement um and you described that you uh
01:41:18 um and you described that you uh signed it with janice jones on the 21st of july 2016. what you say is after signing
01:41:25 signing they simply gave us the keys in a kctmo welcome pack i remember there was information about kctmo what to do for repairs contact numbers
01:41:33 numbers i don't remember any information about what to do in case of emergency health and safety local hospitals um so the best of your recollection did that welcome pack include any information about fire
01:41:44 include any information about fire safety no
01:41:47 safety no so is it is it that you don't remember whether or not it did include any information or can you say that it didn't include information it didn't
01:41:57 um could we have on the screen please
01:42:05 tmoh406553
01:42:13 we'll see in a moment miss jones that this is your tenancy agreement um if we go to the last page which is page 16
01:42:23 and at the bottom there can you see that it's signed by yourself and you were the sole tenant weren't you i was yes and it's also signed by someone called um n bartholomew i think that's nicola
01:42:35 n bartholomew i think that's nicola bartholomew when you were completing this form which is your tenancy agreement did either nicola bartholomew or janice jones take you through it
01:42:52 i can't remember if i'm honest i remember being in the office i remember going there that day but i don't remember if they took me through it
01:43:01 there's the possibility that you could have sat down with someone and filled it in with them or just sat by yourself and filled it in by yourself well it was an appointment so it was a it's like a one-to-one appointment and i
01:43:13 it's like a one-to-one appointment and i was given forms to fill in
01:43:17 can i show you page six of this document
01:43:22 please um it's a
01:43:27 um it's a section can you see the bit that says 1.13
01:43:32 1.13 um and
01:43:36 um and it's about it refers to the equality act and asks the question do you consider yourself to have a disability now unfortunately it's been blanked out um but um
01:43:49 um but um there's a box there that says mobility difficulty getting around and that's on the original was ticked no so it seems
01:43:57 seems at the time you didn't indicate that there was a family member with a disability issue but do you remember being asked at the time about your middle son's condition when you were filling in this form no we
01:44:10 when you were filling in this form no we didn't speak about that um do you recall mentioning to either janice jones or nicola bartholomew that your middle son was experiencing difficulties with mobility no i didn't
01:44:32 um can i show you another form now please
01:44:35 please it's tmoh406560
01:44:46 this is headed tenancy information and again it relates to your um home flat 145 because if we go to page three
01:44:57 you see again that it's signed by yourself signed by um n bartholomew can you remember at all how this form came to be completed
01:45:08 came to be completed could i see the the first page yes let's go to the first page
01:45:19 i'm sorry what was the question you asked can you remember how this form came to be completed no i i can't remember do you think you would have filled it in at the same time as you were filling in that tenancy
01:45:31 as you were filling in that tenancy agreement
01:45:34 um at the bottom there can you see that there's a box under family members does the tenant or anyone in the household have additional support needs please specify and give details of
01:45:45 please specify and give details of agency and contacts in place and you've put there none that's not my handwriting but first question for me then is was the phrase
01:45:56 the phrase additional support needs explained to you do you remember i i can't remember i can't even remember this form if i'm honest well if you can't remember you must say so um
01:46:10 but if you look back and think back to kind of when you were filling in the form before you you you took over the flat aside from the email exchange we looked
01:46:21 aside from the email exchange we looked at with nana was there anybody else in rbkc that you told
01:46:26 told about your your son's difficulties no can you just help me with this you say that the word none isn't in your handwriting
01:46:36 whose handwriting is in the boxes further up the page is it yours my handwriting yeah so you filled in most of the form it looks like yeah um presumably in the course of a meeting
01:46:48 um presumably in the course of a meeting with
01:46:49 with someone from tmo yes yeah okay thank you very much
01:46:58 during the process of signing up to the tenancy
01:47:01 tenancy do you remember if you were given any verbal advice about fire safety when i signed up yes now um
01:47:13 so it's opposition you you didn't receive any documents that that covered fire safety and did anyone
01:47:21 anyone give you any advice about fire safety no
01:47:29 were you told about how you could raise concerns
01:47:32 concerns or make inquiries about fire safety no
01:47:42 were you um told about the um self-closing device on your flat door i didn't have a self-closing device so right well can we just explore that a little bit more and just tell us a bit
01:47:53 little bit more and just tell us a bit about what why what was why didn't why do you think you didn't have a self-closing device on your flat door because it didn't automatically close
01:48:07 and was that something that was it like that from the time that you took over the flat
01:48:13 the flat it was yes um did you know at the time that it was a problem with the door that it wasn't automatically closing uh i knew it was a problem because i was in temporary accommodation before i
01:48:25 in temporary accommodation before i moved into grenfell tower and in the flats that i lived in they were doing a refurb as well and they changed the doors the front doors so when i moved into
01:48:36 moved into grenfell tower the door looked exactly like the one i had in temporary accommodation but the only difference was it seemed like a cheaper version of the door and also it didn't have an automatic
01:48:47 and also it didn't have an automatic closing part on it and because i was there at the time in my temporary accommodation when they did the refurbishment i knew that they put this on for fire safety
01:48:59 this on for fire safety and did you raise that with anybody once you've moved into flight 145
01:49:11 i can't remember um
01:49:16 if you had wanted to raise it did you know how you would go about doing that
01:49:22 most probably just through the repair repairs line yeah um
01:49:30 i think we've still got the tenancy information form on the page if we could go just to um question or page two please
01:49:41 can you see at the bottom there it says tmo membership if we could expand that please
01:49:46 please um there's a tick um have the benefits of becoming a tmo member being explained to the tenant were the benefits of being a tmo
01:49:57 a tmo member explained to you no
01:50:05 i received a a booklet that had i remember at the back it may have had like um something that you could sign and send off to become a member but if anybody verbally explained it and i i
01:50:17 if anybody verbally explained it and i i don't remember that um did you look at the booklet at all at any time
01:50:23 any time yeah i did and um did you did you apply to become a tmo member no i mean i received it the day i signed the tenancy agreement i wouldn't have signed up
01:50:32 signed up on that day but subsequent to that did you think about becoming a member i did because it was the first permanent property i had lived in and thought that it might be beneficial
01:50:43 and thought that it might be beneficial um
01:50:44 um but at the time of moving in and you know
01:50:48 know it wasn't something i was going to sign up to
01:50:51 up to um were you given any information at the time about how the tmo was organized um in regards to well did anyone for example tell you that it was managed by
01:51:02 example tell you that it was managed by a board
01:51:03 a board that included tenants and leaseholders amongst its membership no um were you told that residents could be elected to be
01:51:14 residents could be elected to be members of that board um i don't know it could have said it in the leaflet where it was speaking about it but i can't remember um and did you understand that rbkc and
01:51:27 um and did you understand that rbkc and the tmo were separate organizations yes and what was your understanding of their responsibilities then in relation to
01:51:35 to grenfell town well rbkc were the people that
01:51:39 that i were in contact with in regards to moving into the property and them offering um properties so they were the landlord essentially and um
01:51:49 and um kctmo were the organization that looks after the day-to-day run-ins of the tower [Music]
01:51:58 [Music] as a tenant living in grenfell tower do you remember receiving copies of a magazine called link
01:52:10 i can't remember would it help if i showed you an example yeah let's have tmo double zero eight seven three five five one up please
01:52:40 all right so let me come up with a different example um
01:53:00 um can we have please tmo double zero eight seven
01:53:06 three five four nine now this would be um before you moved in to your flat miss jones but um we can
01:53:18 to your flat miss jones but um we can see there that it's a a magazine this one is from autumn winter 2015 but that's the front piece and it's called link does that help you at all to see i mean did you receive magazines like
01:53:30 i mean did you receive magazines like this through your letterbox um i the front of it doesn't look familiar but if the back i remember the back of the booklet if it is a booklet where it had um some
01:53:41 is a booklet where it had um some information about like repairs and how well they were doing
01:53:46 doing with repairs the response times etc i don't know if it was this booklet but i remember seeing something like that where on the back page it had that information um well did it let me put it this way
01:53:58 um well did it let me put it this way did anyone ever make you aware that link magazine would sometimes contain fire safety advice hello so in terms of the information that you had about fire
01:54:10 the information that you had about fire safety in grenfell tower where was that coming from just when i had the
01:54:17 had the conversation with the two firefighters that came to my house that was the only time
01:54:21 time i spoke to anybody about fire safety in the tower
01:54:28 um can we just look at that conversation please it's in dealt with in your first statement so iws six 6033 if we go to paragraph seven
01:54:43 [Music] and so this is a visit on saturday 10th of june 2017 by two firefighters to carry out a fire safety check and you say they said they were having a
01:54:55 and you say they said they were having a fire safety day and were going around knocking on doors to check people's alarm
01:54:59 alarm i didn't know about the inspection prior to them arriving they pressed the button on both our fire alarms to check they were working and then you continued to say that i was worried about our front door as it didn't
01:55:09 didn't automatically close which is something you've already told us about and you say i wanted to know why there wasn't an automatic shot on the door and i also asked whether the doors in our flat
01:55:20 flat were fire resistance they reassured me that they did not need to automatically close
01:55:26 close it only depended on the materials the doors were made from he tested the doors by banging on them and told me that the front door on the doors of the master bedroom the children's room the kitchen and the living room which had double sliding doors with
01:55:37 which had double sliding doors with glass were all fire resistant and would hold for 30 minutes only the toilet and bathroom doors were not resistant
01:55:46 resistant now you said that you you were aware from your previous accommodation about the importance of doors having an automatic shut um and
01:55:57 having an automatic shut um and from what we've just looked at did you raise that with those two firefighters i did yes um and you said they reassured me they did not need to automatically close
01:56:09 need to automatically close um did is that what you felt at the end of that conversation that that you you didn't need to be concerned about having an automatic shot on your door well that's that's how they kind of made it sound
01:56:22 that's how they kind of made it sound yeah and
01:56:25 yeah and why were you concerned that the flat front door wasn't fire resistant because as i said i was in a temporary accommodation before that and the doors had recently been changed
01:56:36 had recently been changed and that door was solid and felt very heavy compared to the door i had in grenfell tower so how did that door in grenfell tower feel to you then
01:56:47 feel to you then it just felt very light so for example if you open the door and close the door if you push it backwards and forwards you can you know get a feel of how heavy the door was how solid
01:57:00 feel of how heavy the door was how solid it was
01:57:03 so that visits on the 10th of june 2017 following that visit what what was your impression about the fire safety measures in your own flat
01:57:14 measures in your own flat i just thought they were ridiculous i i just thought that okay if this is what the standard is it's it's not really it's not really good um especially being so high up in a
01:57:26 good um especially being so high up in a tower
01:57:28 tower um now when you say you thought they were ridiculous who's the they you're referring to just the actual just just what the firefighters had told
01:57:39 just just what the firefighters had told me
01:57:40 me so that's the measures itself you thought yeah the measures yeah i think um 30 doors um fire resistance sorry 30 minutes um for a daughter hold a fire on the 17th floor is
01:57:53 hold a fire on the 17th floor is ridiculous because i mean it could take the firefighters 30 minutes just to get to my floor or even to the tenth floor i don't know it's not like we're on on a row on a
01:58:05 it's not like we're on on a row on a road sorry where it's a row of houses this is a tower and you've got to keep on climbing up so
01:58:11 up so 30 minutes to me just doesn't sound like enough time and what about the um what they said about the
01:58:18 about the the door not needing to be an automatic closer
01:58:22 closer yeah i just thought okay he's obviously not talking um or not giving me the best advice
01:58:32 advice yeah because as i said i came from a house where it had an automatic closure on the door and it was a new door and
01:58:40 door and grenfell tower had recently been refurbished so i would expect that if they've changed the doors i would have something equivalent
01:58:50 if you look at paragraph eight of that statement
01:58:53 statement what you say there is the fire officer said if there was ever a fire stay put don't leave your flat we will always come to you they also said to put a wet towel at the bottom of the door
01:59:04 towel at the bottom of the door now um
01:59:07 you've just described the measures as ridiculous and that you're given advice about staying put given what you thought about the measures in your flat
01:59:20 measures in your flat did that what did you think about the advice to stay put i wouldn't listen to stapler not on the 17th floor prior to moving to grenfell tower one of my worst nightmares was to be
01:59:32 my worst nightmares was to be trapped high up so if i had ever thought or you know indicated that there was a fire in in the building i'm not going to stay put and rely on anybody to
01:59:43 put and rely on anybody to to save my life or my children's life i'm going to take that into my own hands and was that a view that you held from the moment that you moved into grenfell tower
01:59:52 tower yeah so if there'd been a fire your view was that what you were going to do was going to leave yes 100 definitely and even if that meant that there wasn't a
02:00:03 even if that meant that there wasn't a lift for your son absolutely yeah
02:00:08 did you um when those firefighters came did you discuss your son's mobility issues with them at all no i didn't um
02:00:21 no i didn't um did either of the fire fighters raise with you
02:00:25 with you or mentioned to you evacuation plans
02:00:29 um in what sense well um that if you if you needed to be evacuated from for a plan so that if you needed to be evacuated from your home did either of them raise that or
02:00:40 home did either of them raise that or use the term evacuation plan no no
02:00:46 um if we look in the same statements the next page paragraph 10 please
02:00:59 um you start that paragraph uh by referring to this occasion and that's the visit of the two firefighters and you say it's the only time we've been told anything about what to do in
02:01:10 been told anything about what to do in case of fire they didn't even have signs up when we first moved in this came three or four months
02:01:15 months after we moved into the property and what you go on to say is that you saw a small
02:01:20 small sign about five fires by the lifts which that was around autumn winter 2016 and it said in the event of fire stay put call 999
02:01:32 put call 999 don't use the lifts if your house was on fire close doors and leave the building via the stairs so
02:01:40 apart from the advice you'd received from the firefighters was this the only information you had had
02:01:47 had as to what to do in a fire yes
02:01:56 can i take you to your second statement now please it's
02:02:02 iws401548
02:02:06 if we look at paragraph 15 which is on page four
02:02:15 if i just read that out to you ms jones you say during my time living in grenfell tower i'd report any problems with the flat by contacting the kctmo through their repairs line
02:02:26 repairs line my experience i did not usually have any significant issues with the tmo taking a long time to get back to me claire williams at the tm was also someone who i could contact about problems with the flat so first question is what kind of
02:02:37 so first question is what kind of problems did you report to the repairs lines
02:02:41 lines um i had an issue with the lock on the front door that would have been one of the first things i would have reported
02:02:50 reported i had a light in the passage area where the actual fitting was slightly to the left so they had to centralize it um i had issues with my bathroom as well
02:03:04 and were the responses that you had to those
02:03:08 those queries what was it was it uh whether did the responses come in good time they did yeah because i believe they told me um like within the first six weeks of me moving in if there's any
02:03:19 weeks of me moving in if there's any issues just to report them and they will sort them out um so that was within the six weeks of me moving into the property now you say the
02:03:29 say the the um there was an issue with the lock on the front door yeah that's the front door that you thought was a bit strange because it didn't have an automatic closer on it yeah so did someone come
02:03:40 closer on it yeah so did someone come along to fix the lock yeah i think they replaced the whole lock and handle it was a bit of an odd one because the actual handle looks like a like a back garden door handle
02:03:52 like a back garden door handle and yeah it was it was busted from when we viewed the property up until i reported it and they came and fixed it um did anyone mention the fact that the door wasn't closing automatically to you
02:04:03 door wasn't closing automatically to you no now you mentioned claire williams there what kind of problems did you report to claire williams uh i had um i had an issue with
02:04:15 uh i had um i had an issue with something called a mobex machine which indicated how much um i think it was electric we had like it was like an electric meter a mobile one
02:04:27 mobile one um i was supposed to be given that when i moved into the property i wasn't given that for about seven months so for seven months i wasn't sure when my electric was running out so that
02:04:38 when my electric was running out so that was an issue i had um i wish i had a problem with getting information on how i could pay my rent and for months i requested information on
02:04:48 on a sort or account number so i could pay my rent and it took a long time it took for me to get a letter from the council where they said that i'd miss my rent
02:04:59 where they said that i'd miss my rent payments
02:04:59 payments for them to actually give me the details so that i could pay my rent and were these problems you were raising in the first instance with claire williams
02:05:07 williams yes and uh what was her uh response like uh in regards to the mobex machine it just seemed to go on forever um they
02:05:18 it just seemed to go on forever um they were getting a new batch in at some point and they were going to reset the one that i had so when i moved in initially i had a mobex machine but it didn't actually work
02:05:28 work so she said that they were going to reset it um and try and reboot it and sort it out that didn't work they were going to be getting some more batches in a few weeks or a month
02:05:41 weeks or a month and i would get one of those
02:05:44 yeah it was just a lot of back and forth um mr gemini i've concluded all my questions
02:05:52 questions for miss jones um and so i'd ask for the usual short break so that we can see if there's any other questions that i may be asked to put to her yes all right well it's james that you may know this but we
02:06:04 it's james that you may know this but we when council gets to the end of his questions we need to have a break so he can just take stock make sure he has not overlooked anything yeah and also to allow other people who are not here to suggest questions that perhaps
02:06:16 suggest questions that perhaps we ought to ask you so we'll have a short break now until 20 past four please and then we'll see if there are any more questions for you at that stage all right
02:06:27 right thank you please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
02:06:32 the room we say that to all witnesses um just to make sure that um things things are in good shape all right good thank you would you like to give the usher please thanks
02:06:47 [Music]
02:06:56 right 24 hours for them please
02:24:27 yes would you ask ms james to come back
02:24:40 please
02:24:46 all right miss jones i'm sorry we kept you waiting a bit longer than i suggested but i think we are ready now to find out if there any more questions for you
02:24:54 for you yes mr robert um there are a couple of questions please um could i have um tmo double zero eight nine nine seven four eight up please um
02:25:06 four eight up please um so do you remember earlier you we took you to your statement where you said that you'd been given a kctmo welcome pack when you signed the tenancy
02:25:17 pack when you signed the tenancy and you've also spoken about a booklet which had information for example about repairs on the back of it you look at that document if you this this says welcome to your home if we go to the next page please
02:25:34 it's got information about what happens next managing your tenancy useful contacts is that a a booklet that you've seen before no it wasn't this one what did the one
02:25:46 no it wasn't this one what did the one that you
02:25:47 that you you remember looked like it definitely didn't have 11 pages it was just a very maybe about four pages maximum
02:25:57 right thank you um can i ask you if we could just have now um tmoh4065
02:26:11 this is the tenancy information form we were looking at earlier it's i'll take you to it if you want to see it but it's dated the 21st of july 2016. now do you remember i showed you
02:26:24 2016. now do you remember i showed you and we can see it at the bottom where there's um the boxes about additional support needs and somebody has written in none into the box yeah and that's not your handwriting is it
02:26:35 your handwriting is it it's not no um
02:26:39 you had emailed our bkc as we looked at earlier on the 30th of may yeah in which you've spoken about your son's health given that email
02:26:52 do you find it surprising that this information sheet dated the 21st of july 2016
02:27:00 2016 has that none written in it yes i'm surprised
02:27:05 surprised i mean the email as we discussed is addressed to our bkc do you remember at the time that you're signing up discussing your son's conditions with anyone from tmo no i didn't discuss
02:27:16 with anyone from tmo no i didn't discuss it with anybody from tmo and that was just because i was dealing with it with rbkc so i didn't involve dmo right okay um mr chairman i have no
02:27:28 right okay um mr chairman i have no further questions so um for my part all that remains is for me to once again thank ms jones for coming to give evidence to us today right thank you um mr out i wonder
02:27:39 right thank you um mr out i wonder whether
02:27:41 whether we ought to ask miss jones whether she's seen the tenant's handbook i'll just bring a reference up for it could you yes thank you um
02:27:59 could you yes thank you um yes i'll do that um no um i'm not sure i can put my hand on the reference myself
02:28:09 is that the one that's um exhibited a mr assault statement yes is
02:28:19 iws1762 exhibit mr6
02:28:28 that's the one yeah it always comes up things that's upside down
02:28:34 do you want to ask the question or should i i i can ask it if i explain to um miss um jones this is the front cover or or the first page at
02:28:47 the front cover or or the first page at least on the back page probably of a tenancy handbook and the inquiry has been provided it by mohammed rasool who is another grenfell tower resident
02:28:58 tower resident he had lived in flat 25 since 1994 and his recollection is that he was provided with this handbook in or around 2004 do you remember when
02:29:10 in or around 2004 do you remember when you moved in being given something called a tenancy handbook
02:29:15 handbook i was given something um i don't know if it was called a tendency handbook and the reason i asked that we show this to you is because you obviously seem to recall receiving
02:29:26 you obviously seem to recall receiving something yes it wasn't the last one we showed you yes i wonder whether it might be something looking like this no it didn't look like this even though there was no bold colours on there like blues no
02:29:36 blues no no it was more of a white yeah but clear yeah okay thank you very much thank you nothing else to follow up on that no wellness jones i think it only remains
02:29:48 wellness jones i think it only remains for me to thank you on behalf of the panel as a whole for coming to give your evidence this afternoon it's been very good to hear from you and very helpful to hear what you have to tell us so
02:29:57 so thank you very much indeed and you are now free to go thank you very much thank you right should i give the usher she'll look after you
02:30:19 give the usher she'll look after you thank you mr robert well that is the point at which we should be uh stopping for the day yes there will be another witness tomorrow tomorrow right well thank you very much ten o'clock tomorrow then please
02:30:49 you