Ed Daffarn gives evidence about Grenfell Action Group's fire safety campaigns. Describes the 'fire trap' blog (August 2014) about closure of ground floor access during works, the prescient November 2016 blog predicting 'a catastrophic event' would expose TMO failings, and his complaint about broken perco door closers that TMO manager Madison called him 'a liar' for reporting.
00:00:12 would you ask mr defaunt to come back in please thank you
00:00:35 all right mr dufan ready to carry on indeed good thank you very much yes mr miller
00:00:39 miller um thank you very much mr chairman mr dufan um we discussed earlier this morning
00:00:44 morning uh meeting you had at the tower with ben duis
00:00:48 duis in the march of 2014 uh did you know that at that stage the lfe was conducting an investigation or inspection of the tower
00:00:59 investigation or inspection of the tower um i'm i didn't know that they weren't there on an official visit right but i i i seem to recollect there was a number of firefighters respecting them did he or any other
00:01:11 respecting them did he or any other firefighter during that meeting tell you uh that the nfb had concerns about whether the aov the smoke vent system
00:01:20 system in the tower was working properly or not no
00:01:23 no no did you know that uh only a few days later on the 24th of march 2014 the lfb had calls to issue a deficiency notice
00:01:34 had calls to issue a deficiency notice uh to the tmo in respect of fire safety matters
00:01:38 matters at the grenfell tower um can i just ask you some questions about recognition of grenfell action group can i ask you to go please to
00:01:52 iws402154
00:01:59 now this is an email date of the 12th of june 2012.
00:02:05 and if we go to page 9
00:02:10 uh in this email run
00:02:16 it's a ten page email run we need to look at page nine we can see that you uh send uh um margarita mancy of rbkc an email on the 2nd of august
00:02:29 of rbkc an email on the 2nd of august copied to various people including just note
00:02:33 note kylie christiansen janet councillor blakeman uh and janet edwards at the tmo dear margarita i've sent you today by first class post an application for the from the grenfell action group to be
00:02:44 from the grenfell action group to be added to the rbkc's resident tenants and residents associations database thank you for accepting this application and please would you be kind enough to notify the grandfather action group once our application has been officially
00:02:55 our application has been officially registered uh and then if you go up the email run to page eight
00:03:10 uh she comes back to you
00:03:14 after some intervening correspondence on the 6th
00:03:18 the 6th of september 2012
00:03:22 and says the foot of page 8 thank you for continuing to share with me the progress on this situation much appreciated i cannot remember where we left moving forward on your constitution stroke
00:03:33 forward on your constitution stroke meeting up thursday morning and friday anytime are both good for me next week if you'd like a further catch-up where i can provide any comments by email hope you're enjoying the process of starting to formally recruit and sign up membership
00:03:44 membership exclamation mark in case you haven't seen there's confirmation that you're on the council's database gag is listed on our public online listing and should help your google rank to come up as our ab rbkc site is
00:03:55 to come up as our ab rbkc site is usually indexed as well sorry usually indexed well in the meantime while you build your blog traffic
00:04:01 traffic best wishes kylie it looks from that as if
00:04:06 if gag was actually added to rbkc's database as a residence association is that right that's correct largely thanks to
00:04:17 thanks to um kylie christensen right i see so in fact
00:04:20 fact gag did become a formerly recognized residents association so far as rbkc was concerned
00:04:27 concerned yeah right and that enabled us to be invited to the camp policy consultation and stuff like that so
00:04:35 that so now i want to ask you about fire exits can i show you a gag blog post from august 2014
00:04:45 tm00831259
00:04:52 this is a blog dated 26th of august to 2014 and it's headed uh is grenfell a flower is grenfell tower a fire trap and you
00:05:03 is grenfell tower a fire trap and you can see a big picture uh in red and orange which says fire trap
00:05:09 trap and then next to that on the right it says from grenfell action group to bendu is londonfaber dot gov dot uk subject read grenfell tower ongoing concerns wednesday 20th of august 2014 and then
00:05:22 wednesday 20th of august 2014 and then you set out the text of an email there and it has at the bottom
00:05:28 bottom grenfell action group as the signatory the first question i have is did you write the email to ben dewis that you're then cutting and pasting into the blog here so i i think from the top right hand corner where i've got grenfell action
00:05:39 corner where i've got grenfell action group
00:05:40 group i think probably what i've done is that would have had my original private email address so i've taken that out
00:05:48 out and put the grenfell action group because i don't think the grenfell action group actually had a an email account like that so but i obviously wouldn't want to share my private email address so from the top right-hand corner that i can see
00:05:59 right-hand corner that i can see yes i see um now had you received a response from mr dewis to your 20th of august email before you posted this on the 26th of august
00:06:19 if i'm honest i can't remember no unless you've got we haven't seen that we haven't seen one so so if you haven't seen it i would suspect that i didn't get a uh response right had you chased mr dewis
00:06:31 response right had you chased mr dewis for a response before you posted it uh i don't think so probably right i mean is there a reason why you didn't wait for a response from ben dust before posting this blog um i would suggest
00:06:42 posting this blog um i would suggest because we just wanted to get this as a document out there looking at the detail it says i'm very sorry to trouble you again and then it goes on a number of residents of grenfell tower are very concerned
00:06:53 grenfell tower are very concerned the fact that the new improvement works to grenfell tower have turned our building into a fire trap there is only one entry and exit to the tower block itself and in the event of a fire the lfb could only gain access to
00:07:04 fire the lfb could only gain access to the entrance to the building by climbing four flights of narrow stairs on top of this the fire escape exit on the walkway level has now been sealed and then in bold residents of grenfell tower do not have any confidence
00:07:15 tower do not have any confidence that our building has been satisfactorily assessed to cope with the new improvement works and we are seeking a meeting with the chief fire officer from kensington fire station so that these concerns can be addressed
00:07:26 addressed now looking at the second and the third paragraphs of this um email reflected in this blog so leaving aside the point about the walkway level exit what was it specifically about the refurbishment
00:07:39 specifically about the refurbishment that as you put it turned the building into a fire trap right well aside from the um the the issue of
00:07:47 issue of access from by fire appliances along grenfell road um the most concerning aspects and i think what i was probably or what we
00:07:58 i think what i was probably or what we were probably most referring to here was so once the work started and the base of the tower was there was no access
00:08:08 no access um pedestrian people tend to access in through the base every tenant had to enter through the walkway
00:08:16 walkway and the only way you could get to the walkway was either through a ramp from latimer road tube station which was probably 500 yards away or up and there's another blog called stairs of shame
00:08:28 blog called stairs of shame up these very four very narrow flights of stairs
00:08:33 of stairs um and just for all the reasons i've explained to you previously about concerns about mass evacuation or just fire in general i i i could not believe
00:08:44 fire in general i i i could not believe at the time that that that had been assessed and and to this day i i it's still not all the things but there are many many things but that is one thing that i can never
00:08:56 one thing that i can never so for the whole of the period of the regeneration works while the the ground floor of grenfell was closed the only way that the emergency services would have been able to access grenfell
00:09:08 would have been able to access grenfell tower was up this narrow one flight of sorry four flights through one staircase or to come up from labret grove tube up the ramp that was what my
00:09:19 tube up the ramp that was what my concern was and that and i believe that's what ended up in council blakeman's matrix and at the end that's
00:09:28 it didn't feel safe what what made you put a prominent graphic with the word fire trap in those garish colors there on the blog
00:09:39 in those garish colors there on the blog well in fact as i explained a little bit earlier francis o'connor was normally responsible for the graphics but um look it felt like an entirely
00:09:50 but um look it felt like an entirely appropriate um uh banner heading or graphic right i mean it would you know sorry to interrupt you no no no it
00:09:58 it interrupted you know the the closure of the ground floor had turned the grenfell tower into a fire trap yes i see when did you first become aware that the fire escape exit on the walkway
00:10:09 that the fire escape exit on the walkway level
00:10:09 level would be closed so it's a little bit confusing
00:10:14 confusing and i'm i'm that so so there was so once the
00:10:18 the improvement works had closed off the the ground floor level there was the only exit from uh from grenfell towers through the walkway and there's another blog we've got pictures of
00:10:30 another blog we've got pictures of rubbish and stuff in in that hallway and then out onto the walkway and then down these stairs but but previously there had been another fire exit at the
00:10:42 another fire exit at the north side of grenfell tower that had been allowed to fall into disrepair and was removed as part of the calc works
00:10:49 works so i i'm just i mean i'm assuming here where are we now august august 14th so so so we're yeah so we're like two months into the
00:11:00 yeah so we're like two months into the grenfell tower work starting i just i just in my mind i can't quite is that when they would have closed off the downstairs if it was then i most definitely was referring to the
00:11:11 referring to the fire escape that traditionally came at the end of the emergency stairs on the walkway level that would then take you out onto the mezzanine and sorry so so i mean just in times in terms of chronology i think we can date
00:11:23 terms of chronology i think we can date this
00:11:24 this or your concern about this to the time when the enabling work started by ryden on site
00:11:29 on site which is which is late summer okay 14. yeah i'm sorry it might be more difficult for me to but those were the chronic those were the kind of chronological concerns i had the the more historic
00:11:40 concerns i had the the more historic concern about the fire escape at the back of grenfell tower on the mezzanine but then more major concern about once the
00:11:48 the ground floor was closed down um that that the only exit was out through the lifts
00:11:54 lifts if you happen to go down to the ground floor the old thing you just the lift would open and there was just like a it was like boarded up and then so you had to go back up to the walkway level
00:12:05 walkway level and then come out on the walkway so that was that was the only experience now did you discuss the concerns that you've
00:12:11 you've uh articulated in this blog here or in your email to mr duis with anyone from the tmo at the time
00:12:21 so like i'll go back to what i said earlier i think we were aware that the tmo were reading our blog for us this was this was signed to them that they needed to do something about what our concerns were
00:12:33 what our concerns were i do know that you know
00:12:37 um we were raising with councillor blakeman although that that did appear as
00:12:41 as you pointed out earlier a couple of years later in the matrix rather than right now
00:12:45 right now um i mean i think there's another blog called the stairs of shame that would be another do you have that available uh i i do not to answer your question okay so did you were you a blogger of that on
00:12:56 did you were you a blogger of that on that vlog
00:12:57 that vlog stays a shame yes in the same way that all blogs were created but in fact on that one because it starts off with a if grenfell tower was a child it would have been taken into care by
00:13:09 into care by yes which was my social work back yes i think stairs of shame appears and i've just been reminded of it but i think in fact i remember it appears actually it's part of the gag blog is that right yeah it was another it was
00:13:20 is that right yeah it was another it was it even i think it either preceded this or followed yeah this blog and it actually had a photograph of the stairs and yes gave a bit more depth to what we were talking about we can look at that if we need to um did anybody respond to this
00:13:34 um did anybody respond to this would anybody from the tma respond to this message that you put up on the blog not as far as i'm aware did mr dewis respond to the email that we've seen um not unless we've got
00:13:46 unless we've got evidence of a trail of response from him did you ever get a meeting with the chief fire officer at kensington no never did
00:13:52 never did no i can't remember meeting him and right
00:13:56 right so i don't think so now no um now
00:14:02 um now before the break we looked at the grenfell tower refurbishment newsletter from 2014
00:14:09 from 2014 and the fire safety advice in it and you um you helped us with that it appears that there was no further regeneration letter newsletter
00:14:20 further regeneration letter newsletter sent to the residents with any fire safety advice in it until may 2016. um so far as you can remember were you yourself informed of any changes to
00:14:31 yourself informed of any changes to access to the tower and the potential impact on fire safety uh no we were not were you told at any point
00:14:40 point uh the the aov which is what it's its own it stands for um automatic opening vents or the smoke
00:14:51 automatic opening vents or the smoke extract system was being repaired and would be out of action for a period uh we weren't my only recollection apart from
00:14:59 from i think there's another incident a bit later on where i i raised concerns about the the um fire alarm and and the aov at which i'm happy to talk about but my concern about the aov is i actually used to walk past it on my
00:15:11 is i actually used to walk past it on my landing and at the bottom of it there were like two wires that didn't seem to be connected to anything i think that might be one of my states it is and we'll cut we may come to that later my question is a simpler one
00:15:22 one either by the tmo or or the lfb that the aov either was completely out of action or beyond economic repair or not working properly anything like that no right
00:15:41 that no right uh now
00:15:44 uh now we've seen again uh before the break that in the spring of 2014 and again july 2014 you raised with ben duis of lfb your concerns about fire safety advice the
00:15:56 concerns about fire safety advice the state
00:15:56 state policy and the absence of a um an assembly point and you returned i think to this issue in 2016 didn't you correct um can we look at the gag blog for 20th
00:16:07 um can we look at the gag blog for 20th of november 2016. tmo.00845987 please
00:16:27 and it i think was probably familiar now to quite a lot of people in this room and beyond um i'll read the first paragraph just to remind everybody about this
00:16:40 just to remind everybody about this document
00:16:41 document 20th of november 16 it is a truly terrifying thought but the grantful action group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord the kctmo and bring an end to the dangerous living
00:16:53 and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders we believe that the kctmo are an evil unprincipled mini mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of
00:17:05 charged with the responsibility of looking
00:17:05 looking after the everyday management of a large-scale social housing estates and that their assaulted collusion with the rbkc council is a recipe for a future major disaster
00:17:16 for a future major disaster and then it goes on um if you then turn the page
00:17:20 the page that's how it starts and then there's some history previous grenfell action group blogs and then i'd like just to pick this up with you towards the end in the penultimate
00:17:31 towards the end in the penultimate paragraph where it says in the last 20 years
00:17:35 years in the last 20 years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at adair tower the residents of grenfell tower have received no proper fire safety instructions
00:17:46 instructions from the kctmo residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire
00:17:57 fire there are not and have never been any instructions posted in the grenfell tower notice board or on individual floor
00:18:04 floor as to how residents should act in the event of a fire anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at shepherd's court in nearby shepherds bush will know that the advice to remain in our properties
00:18:15 the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to reconsider the advice that they have so badly circulated the grenfell and i better read the last
00:18:26 the grenfell and i better read the last part the grenfell action group predict that it won't be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the kctma management and we will do everything in our power to ensure
00:18:35 ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the health and safety of their tenants and leaseholders they can't say that they haven't been warned
00:18:47 warned now the section i've read out the penultimate paragraph there is this right could be red perhaps was
00:18:58 is this right could be red perhaps was intended to be red as you or or gag doubting whether the stay put advice was appropriate for grenfell tower what was that the case
00:19:09 was that the case correct when you wrote this blog november 16 what did you think the right advice was and i know you're not a
00:19:21 and i know you're not a safety professional but what did you think that the right advice should have been
00:19:25 been so i don't know that we got that far with with working out what the solution was
00:19:30 was i mean it was i i walked out of shepherd's bush underground station and i saw shepard's court and the thought that i had when i saw shepard's court is we're being advised to stay in our
00:19:41 we're being advised to stay in our properties but if that had been the advice and this fire had taken place because about six flats of about above the point for a point of origin had been like totally destroyed
00:19:52 origin had been like totally destroyed so it was just like and you know i've explained to you before we you know my concerns were around communal fires gas explosions so it just didn't feel that stay put was you know it may have
00:20:05 that stay put was you know it may have been in one circumstance the right advice but in another circumstance it may not have been the right advice and it's certainly after seeing shepard's court didn't feel that stay put
00:20:15 put should just be the advice that we were given i think right now this the post also is this fair also seems to be criticizing the
00:20:26 fair also seems to be criticizing the sufficiency of fire safety advice being provided to
00:20:32 residents absolutely so you were criticizing the tmo for not adequately displaying advice that you consider to be bad advice
00:20:41 well i mean it's a little perverse but yes i mean i mean what what's interesting for me is that the fact that we you know that i like not not post fire but pre-fire
00:20:54 like not not post fire but pre-fire and what we wrote on the blog was accurate
00:20:57 accurate we didn't make things up to put on the blog there was no need for us to make things up
00:21:01 things up is that what we've written there about residents were informed by sorry go back a a thing that the residents of greenville tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the kctmo
00:21:12 instructions from the kctmo residents are informed the temporary notice so you know like that was the fact at the time yes and and it's not a memory after the fire it was like
00:21:21 was like that at that time when we wrote that blog that was a fact as it was and that's to me that's really important because it's not it's not dealing with memories or like time gone by or maybe what you
00:21:33 like time gone by or maybe what you would want to remember this is like this is a fact we didn't write any you know we didn't write anything on the blog that wasn't like factually accurate as far as we could
00:21:42 could ascertain did you and i know that yours you tell us that the blog was a means of communicating directly with the tmo rather than writing to them or using their processes but did you
00:21:53 or using their processes but did you actually
00:21:54 actually speak to anybody at the tmo or did they try to speak to you about your concerns regarding the lack of proper
00:22:00 of proper fire safety advice to residents whether it was the right advice or whether it was properly displayed so they didn't communicate with we i don't remember them communicating with us but what i do
00:22:11 communicating with us but what i do remember is shortly after this blog they put up the stay put signs right by the lift so it's a you know i mean i i'm not sure whether the um lfb had a we're doing
00:22:23 whether the um lfb had a we're doing other stuff in the background but it felt like
00:22:27 felt like to us that you know to get things done we could blog we could make a point and then action was taken if we weren't blogging about it nothing was going to get done about it we we were aware where you were aware that at
00:22:40 were aware where you were aware that at the time councillor blakeman judith blakeman had forwarded your blog to the tmo
00:22:44 tmo asking them to address the concerns in it that there were no proper fire safety instructions displayed for residents uh was i where she'd done that yes
00:22:55 uh was i where she'd done that yes if i'm really honest i i can't remember right did you discuss your concerns that you've expressed here about fire safety notices with councillor blakeman either before so
00:23:06 councillor blakeman either before so so yeah i think and i think it's included in our matrix i hate to keep going back to the matrix but it was quite a useful tool in that we were able to put our concerns into a place that is a
00:23:18 our concerns into a place that is a surviving document so so yes i mean far and then the changing of the numbers of the flaws so yes that's certainly in the matrix for may 16. but i i think also
00:23:29 for may 16. but i i think also if information is in there i could be wrong yes uh we can we can certainly look at that right okay but my question was really more specific around this time did you take this particular concern at this
00:23:40 take this particular concern at this time to judith blakeman uh yourself as well as blogging about it so i i my my memory of this blog is it wasn't particularly something that we were using to then hawk around to try
00:23:52 were using to then hawk around to try and get action done this was more of a like a kind of conclusion after a long time
00:23:58 time of how the kctml operated i think going back to the beginning uh and and i think quite what's quite interesting about this it's like wider from our own individual
00:24:09 it's like wider from our own individual concerns about fire safety affecting grenfell tower we've now after a few years of studying the kctmo
00:24:16 the kctmo we've come to understand how deficient it was and this blog is a is is a product of that understanding and
00:24:23 and look at it it says it all and is the time i mean we can see it and you've referred
00:24:28 referred higher up page two to the adef tower yeah fire in october 2015. and as we've seen the shepherd caught fire in august 2016 uh
00:24:40 2016 uh was the timing of this blog related to those two incidents
00:24:48 let me put the question a slightly different way uh we'd had the adair tire fire in october 2015 so a year before a year before and we'd had the shepherds caught fire in august 16.
00:24:59 16. so three or so months before what had prompted you to write this blog in late november 16 okay as opposed to any other time so i think the enforcement order was like a year enforcement order
00:25:10 enforcement order and we had been checking to see whether they had completed their enforcement order within the year and they hadn't completed the enforcement order within the year and i was and i think there's an email to ben jewetts i'll write a bit later on
00:25:23 to ben jewetts i'll write a bit later on confirming that the fire brigade and tmo are the the the the the lfb were monitoring this um enforcement order so i think that the reason this blog
00:25:34 reason this blog i mean it kind of wrote itself anyway but the reason it got written around this time and there is a reference to the enforcement order is because
00:25:42 because it was coming to the point in time where the uh adair the adair tower enforcement order was meant to have been completed
00:25:52 completed that was the 31st of october i think so that that
00:25:56 that that that and that notice i think was a deficiency notice yeah was it was the end of october 15. so so in this day is 20th of uh november 16. so that's we'll tell you
00:26:07 uh november 16. so that's we'll tell you what i'm saying i see okay but they're connected whether they're accurately connected or not is perhaps not a question in your mind were they connected so so so was this blog connected to the adair
00:26:18 so was this blog connected to the adair yes yes right and a wider understanding about
00:26:22 about fire safety lack of fire safety lack of control through throughout the estate rather than just in grenfell tower and on lancaster west now can i move to a topic uh in relation
00:26:33 now can i move to a topic uh in relation to which you had some um personal uh experience flat front doors
00:26:38 doors yeah um can i take you to your first statement please page 15 paragraph 47
00:26:49 you say there on my own door there was a problem with the perco self-closing device
00:26:54 device the perko was halfway up the door on the right hand side it was long three inches into the wall it looked like a chain and when you let go of the door it was supposed to ensure the door closed on its own however the perk on my door just came
00:27:06 however the perk on my door just came out one day not long after the door was fitted so i was unable to close the door i removed the purchase so i could close the door and it was still off on the night of the fire i did not have the perco for years
00:27:17 the perco for years did you report uh the fact that your perco
00:27:21 perco was broken to the tmo i can't remember whether i did or didn't right um now let's look at rbk3053524
00:27:32 um now let's look at rbk3053524 please
00:27:40 and i'm going to this mr default to see if we can
00:27:43 if we can get a time fix on this this is a record of repairs i think we have to go to the native version rbk3053524
00:28:13 [Music] uh thank you yes there it is now if we go
00:28:18 go uh to row 3705
00:28:32 there's an entry for the 12th of september 2011.
00:28:38 as you can see uh
00:28:46 uh and uh
00:28:50 it's dated 12th september 2011. and if you scroll scroll across all the way to the far side it says under repair description
00:29:01 side it says under repair description ooh and then there's a number front door will not secure did you report that your front door would not secure to the out of hours line in september 2011 do you think
00:29:17 um
00:29:22 so that's kind of like a different problem to that the problem i had with the perko
00:29:26 the perko right problem i had with the purcha was i couldn't close the door and i resolved it my i mean i resolved it there and then myself because it was a saturday morning i was going out on my flat and i had
00:29:37 i was going out on my flat and i had to in order to get out my flat i had to take the perco out um this may have been another issue with like not
00:29:44 like not like the lock or something so it's a different a different uh incident yeah and then i'm looking at that and i'm thinking is that about the door on 136 but it's not because it's 2011.
00:29:56 2011. right so no no absolutely that's a different issue no that's a separate we're going to come to okay okay very shortly but just on this one i'm just wondering whether this was the in this is an incident relating to your purchase
00:30:07 purchase on your flat but no i think you say something else um did did anybody from the tmo or or even the fire risk assessor ever tell you of the importance
00:30:20 assessor ever tell you of the importance to fire safety of the perco or a self-closing device of another brand on the front door of your flat uh no i mean i knew what perko's were there for to close doors in the event thing but no
00:30:32 to close doors in the event thing but no one explained that to me and no one ever told you that it was essential to the fire safety of all the residents in the building that your perco remained in good working
00:30:44 that your perco remained in good working order no
00:30:46 did anybody ask to inspect your front door
00:30:50 door and your self-closing device in particular while you were living in grenfell tower at any stage no now can we go to your second witness statement please p page 110
00:31:02 p page 110 paragraph 333
00:31:10 you raise a query there you say i query whether these flat front doors were suitable for grenfell tower because so many people had problems with the self-closing devices which appeared to be because they were fitted into concrete
00:31:23 before the fire in june 2017 how many people did you know personally with problems
00:31:29 problems with their self-closing devices
00:31:34 uh okay it's quite hard for me to remember specific people i remember there was like it was a concern for people and i think there was one individual i heard in particular
00:31:46 heard in particular whose door had actually like fallen the whole thing had fallen off so that raymond moses who lived so yeah i mean it was it was more like a
00:31:58 so yeah i mean it was it was more like a conversational thing rather than me going around and actually recording who had got a problem with their doors and not but i mean i think a lot of people had right problem i mean you say so many people you give
00:32:09 i mean you say so many people you give the impression here that this was a widespread problem and i'm just trying to get a feel for okay so in your experience how widespread it was yeah i mean we've i'm not i don't think i'm able to pursue to to give you a natural figure
00:32:20 pursue to to give you a natural figure because i don't think we took like a um survey of it or whatever but what i understand is it was like a widespread problem for people because the door i mean so something that we might like talk about when we
00:32:32 that we might like talk about when we talk to people is the quality of the doors and
00:32:34 doors and you know just in kind of conversation and it always felt to me that the doors were a little bit of an issue in grenfell that i wasn't entirely sure that that they the motivation for changing them had
00:32:45 the motivation for changing them had been fire safety i'd kind of suspected that there'd been another motivation and that sort of made me think that they weren't really appropriate doors for for where they've been fitted into and
00:32:56 for where they've been fitted into and then the fact that i was hearing that other people's perkos would break in door locks the the the um the actual so not the perco but the actual lock itself would become loose
00:33:07 would become loose um i mean you know there were people that were complaining about their doors and then
00:33:11 and then hearing about more kind of you know catastrophic instances instances to doors when you say there was a you thought there might have been another motivation for changing the flat front doors what was that well this is just like my
00:33:23 what was that well this is just like my own private for it's uh you know i didn't think that tmo were particularly motivated to do anything for our health and safety so when they came and said that they'd done something for our health and safety
00:33:34 done something for our health and safety it just didn't really ring true with me right why else would they change the flat front doors because there is there another reason there's a lot of lucrative contracts in uh social housing i see
00:33:46 social housing i see all right um did you report to the tf issue was a widespread one in the building
00:33:53 building i'm not sure that i did know right why is that
00:33:56 is that um for the same answers i've given you previously i didn't see it it's my responsibility particularly to do that i may not have understood the significance of the perkos and when i reported the 136 door
00:34:09 perkos and when i reported the 136 door it wasn't
00:34:10 it wasn't for fire safety issues it was for another issue so let's look at that because in both statements you refer to your complaint about your next-door neighbor's flat flat 136
00:34:21 neighbor's flat flat 136 having been left open um can we can we look at the email exchange on this at iws402220
00:34:40 i have to say this was an extremely significant um matter for me in my history with the town with the tmo so i'd just like you to understand that yes i understand
00:34:52 yes i understand well let's see how let's see how we go with this um if we start with page one second email down
00:34:59 down this is your email to uh
00:35:07 mr peter madison who has been redacted out but you can see that that's who to whom it's addressed uh copied to councillor blakeman robert black and john sweeney dear mr
00:35:20 robert black and john sweeney dear mr madison i'm writing to you to lodge a formal complaint against the tmo concerning an incident that has occurred at grenfell tower on friday night august 14th
00:35:27 14th and has still not been resolved this monday morning 17th of august last week my neighbours from redacted out
00:35:35 out grenfell tower vacated their property and returned their keys to the tmo after the subsequent days workmen from the tmos contractor ryden have entered the vacant property to carry out your so-called improvement works
00:35:46 so-called improvement works when i went to leave my property on friday evening i was very surprised to find that the front door entrance door to flat blanked out has been left wide open for the weekend see photo i have not entered the property and from
00:35:57 i have not entered the property and from the outside there does not appear to be anyone inside but i could not be sure on brief inspection the door appears to have a broken purcha and will not pull two
00:36:08 uh and uh and you go on to say um in the next paragraph that you could only assume that the damage had been done by riding contractors who then couldn't be bothered to secure the
00:36:19 then couldn't be bothered to secure the property properly over the weekend please accept my apologies if i'm incorrect in this assertion and then you go on to say that you called the tmos worker the out of hours of work at phil
00:36:30 worker the out of hours of work at phil to report it
00:36:33 and you explain there over the page page two
00:36:38 two the response second paragraph um or three lines in to what looks like the first paragraph you say phil then told me that i should go and pull the door closed if i was worried i asked her again for the tmo to help
00:36:49 i asked her again for the tmo to help secure the door which she refused and told me
00:36:52 told me that if i wanted anything to happen then i would have to call the police i asked her to call the police but she refused and told me it was my responsibility to call the police is i had the details i then reminded her that i'd just given
00:37:03 i then reminded her that i'd just given her all the details but she still refused to do anything to help resolve the situation and then you express your upset about how unhelpful the out of hours worker was and then you go on to say in the third
00:37:16 and then you go on to say in the third line as it stands the front door has remained unrepaired and open over the weekend and will have acted as a potential magnet to people looking to use the vacant property for illegal or anti-social purposes
00:37:27 purposes this is not acceptable and feels very threatening to residents and demonstrates very unprofessional conduct by the tmo stroke ryden please can you confirm that this email will be responded to as a formal complaint and answer the following questions for me
00:37:39 answer the following questions for me please come to tma explain why your contractor went away for the weekend leaving the front door to flat redacted wide open and secure and unsecured
00:37:47 unsecured please can you confirm that the front door will be closed out of wetman's hours please can you also explain why your staff at the tma were so unhelpful and rude and refused to take any action to respond to my legitimate complaint
00:38:00 respond to my legitimate complaint and you say you've copied the email to your local mp and counsellor say that they're aware of how the tmo continues to abuse the residents in grenfell tower now the nub of it
00:38:14 now the nub of it is this right is is the broken purcha the fact that it was left unrepaired you mean
00:38:22 mean in general or what happened on that evening it's a long email but the number of your complaint is here is a perco it's broken no my complaint was doors left open
00:38:32 left open i can't pull it closed and you shouldn't be leaving the door open over the weekend
00:38:38 weekend all right okay i perhaps didn't ask the question and perhaps the way i should have done but that's the basis that's the effect of your complaint um the
00:38:50 effect of your complaint um the the perco seems to have been the center of it my question is how did you know that the perco was broken um well like i say i carried out a superficial inspection i went out the door was open i saw a
00:39:03 i went out the door was open i saw a couple of like hot white hard hats on the
00:39:06 the floor so this is like i'm thinking that there's even the builders are there or they've gone probably knocked on the door to check that no one was in and then right it's a weekend i better close the
00:39:17 right it's a weekend i better close the door try pulling the door the handle was on the right hand side tried pulling the door closed couldn't pull the door closed um the blockage must have been coming from where the perco was
00:39:29 where the perco was and that was it i couldn't close the door the doors left over over the weekend and that's where i complained to the tmo i actually took a photograph of the door
00:39:37 the door um but i didn't it didn't contain the perco in it so i just i'm sorry to be picky about it and then i want to get to exactly what it was you observed so you couldn't pull the door
00:39:48 pull the door too yeah because is this right you you could perceive a problem with the perco well i i i the barrier to pulling the door to was at some point it became
00:39:59 door to was at some point it became it wouldn't pull two i see so my i mean i'm not completely illiterate of construction no so i sort of
00:40:07 of looked and saw that it wasn't anything else around the door stop it had been pulled to
00:40:11 pulled to so assumed it was a perco i see so is it right that the perco not only was not closing the door automatically but was actually obstructing the door
00:40:22 but was actually obstructing the door from being closed at all that's what i was saying right sorry and how sure are you to the best of your recollection sitting here today that the perco was broken and having those two effects you've just described
00:40:34 those two effects you've just described so today
00:40:35 so today i have to admit it would be very difficult to remember what happened that time ago
00:40:39 time ago but if i've written perco in this complaint then i was pretty damn sure it was a pokemon at that time now as far as you were aware was the door closer to this flat
00:40:51 closer to this flat and there's no secret it's flat 136 as you say in your statement inspected and repaired after the date on which you made this complaint so it was repaired but not until
00:41:04 so it was repaired but not until i'd been told by peter madison that the door wasn't broken and i could just have pulled it closed which was and i sit here under oath telling you
00:41:17 that that was a lie and it was how they treated me at that point was just to just sort of lie to me make out that i was vexatious vexatious complainant
00:41:29 vexatious complainant and yeah and you know i went out the door was open i tried to put it close it wouldn't fall close i made a complaint about it the complaint is responded to by madison
00:41:40 the complaint is responded to by madison telling me that i'm a liar and i could have pulled the door too and i'm not a liar and i couldn't pull the door too the best of your knowledge did peter madison personally come and
00:41:51 madison personally come and see the thing you had seen i don't i i so i i said i think i've received a complaint response from claire williams saying that she was aware that there was an issue
00:42:02 an issue i need to be a bit careful because uh i i i'm not sure if that email was to me or and at the time but i i believe that that claire william i think claire williams picked it up and
00:42:13 think claire williams picked it up and then
00:42:13 then emailed me to say they were aware there is a problem with door 136 and peter's away on holiday and it will be picked up with when he gets back from holiday that that's my understanding of what happens
00:42:24 that's my understanding of what happens and and we will be looking at those perhaps with other witnesses what i'm just really seeking to get from you mr defile is how sure you are in in your observations as recorded at
00:42:36 in in your observations as recorded at the time
00:42:36 the time and i think you've already given me that i think i have yeah yes thank you very much
00:42:40 much can i then turn to a completely different topic uh which is the refurbishment yeah and i want to start going back if i made to 2012 and the subject of consultation yeah um can we go please to
00:42:51 can we go please to um tmo one triple zero one four zero one
00:43:08 now this is a a document um published by rbkc and the tmo uh called an engagement statement dated august 2012.
00:43:20 august 2012. uh you're nodding are you familiar with it uh
00:43:23 it uh i have said yes i have seen it i can't i've seen it i think i don't know if i saw it before the fire but i've definitely seen it after okay now can we go please to page 14
00:43:37 and on page 14 we can see the heading grenfell tower regeneration product project
00:43:43 project and there are columns and if you look at uh
00:43:50 if you look down the left hand side you can see
00:43:53 can see 28th of february 2012 there was a road show
00:43:56 show and then on two on two down from that 29th of may 2012 another road show and lots of other events including evening consultations which continue all
00:44:07 evening consultations which continue all the way if one goes over the page [Music]
00:44:11 [Music] to august 2012. one can scroll down all the way
00:44:16 the way to 18th of august 2012.
00:44:20 and this is a document dated august 2012 so it's a history or chronology of the consultation events thus far
00:44:29 and it runs uh pretty much weekly it appears and you can see the topic of the discussions discussion with design
00:44:41 the discussions discussion with design proposals design proposals relocation design proposals design proposals
00:44:46 proposals and then 16th of august the pre-penultimate entries as an evening pre-planning presentation daytime drop-in sessions conclusion to consultation process and proposed planning application submission
00:44:57 proposed planning application submission uh and then positive response from residents who attended presentation this is the right-hand side some residents wanted to know more about provision for new bike racks etc um did you attend
00:45:11 etc um did you attend either of the road shows that i showed you on page 14 in february or maybe 2012.
00:45:18 2012. can we go back together please go back to page two so i can tell you which of these i did attend well that would actually that would be helpful yes okay so the the 28 february was a
00:45:29 the 28 february was a as far as i'm aware kind of generic tmo road show that they did periodically and they'd come to lancaster green and my understanding of that is that no one from grenfell tower had been told
00:45:41 one from grenfell tower had been told that
00:45:42 that there was going to be a consultation about grenfell at that road show and that the questionnaire that they tmo claimed that they um did at that road show
00:45:53 show um was filled out by people from around the estate rather than people from grenfell tower so so it was kind of just seemed to me quite a strange way to launch a grenfell tower regeneration
00:46:04 launch a grenfell tower regeneration consultation by talking to people that didn't live there um the estate meeting is where um uh mark come to comes comes to the emb
00:46:18 uh mark come to comes comes to the emb room and and says how do we consult what's the best way the road show is it's a further meeting at the enb rooms with a small select group of residents were you there i was
00:46:31 group of residents were you there i was at that
00:46:32 at that sec that the 29th for the fifth meeting i was there right um and i mean i don't know if there are minutes of those meetings or i think i think for that meeting the maybe minutes and an attendance list
00:46:43 minutes and an attendance list and i think there were seven grenfell tower residents there betty who was here yesterday was there right um
00:46:51 right um uh and that i think bruce was there and i think it was a kind of like these at the very beginning are like you know kind of we're thinking of coming to do some work to grenfell tower it's cladding windows it wasn't detailed stuff at all and then then how
00:47:03 detailed stuff at all and then then how i remember it progressing is a series of um of of consultation events in the emb rooms which is down the bottom of the tower
00:47:13 tower um and i attended probably so so there are like four or five of those and i don't know how many i attended but i attended a couple of those do you remember being shown any samples
00:47:24 do you remember being shown any samples of cladding options of those meetings so so i never ever saw a sample of cladding
00:47:29 cladding at any point and i i i later on after having been promised to be shown samples of cladding and the windows wrote some emails to uh i think nick padgett brown from the leader of the
00:47:40 padgett brown from the leader of the council to say we hadn't been shown what we've been told we were going to be shown right can we go to
00:47:47 tma12001401 and go to page 34.
00:47:57 this document uh includes a newsletter dated 15th july 2012. so this is after the february and may roadshows yeah and the estate meeting uh and it's
00:48:09 and the estate meeting uh and it's headed grenfell tower regeneration project as you can see and there's the background set out in the left-hand column and you can see feedback from residents i should just pointed out the date 15th
00:48:20 should just pointed out the date 15th july 2012 is on the right hand side as you can see there and uh
00:48:30 in the first column in the middle under the rubric feedback from residents and there's some bold writing what you have said
00:48:39 have said and it says you wish to be involved in the development of the proposals for grenfell tower and presumably that was true yeah i mean i think at the 15th of july so
00:48:50 i mean i think at the 15th of july so these these feedbacks have come from the the meetings with residents not really from grenfell tower but from the estates right so they're not really the residents of the tower they're people who lived on
00:49:01 who lived on land western state so so i i don't dispute
00:49:06 dispute so they you want to be yeah we wanted to be involved you're in support of the proposals
00:49:10 proposals right
00:49:14 the reason i ask is is that if you go to the second paragraph down in that column it says
00:49:18 it says there's a road show and then followed up with the issue of a questionnaire grenfell tower residence so the reason i ask the question is is it right to say that the grenfell tower residents wish to be
00:49:30 the grenfell tower residents wish to be involved in the development of the proposals for grenfell tower so i i never received i don't remember ever receiving the quest the first questionnaire that they put around and i think they said they were going to do some door knocking and i
00:49:42 going to do some door knocking and i don't remember them ever doing some door knocking i'm not sorry no that's right did you ever receive this newsletter i think i probably did yeah right yeah did you read it yeah i would have read it yeah yes
00:49:53 yeah i would have read it yeah yes definitely uh well let's look at the second page of this one page 35 and we can see that there is a call at the bottom to residence and it says
00:50:05 at the bottom to residence and it says we need your your feedback and above that it says we would welcome your input and ideas for the proposals and encourage you to come along to our evening meetings where you can view the proposals this will be a good opportunity for you
00:50:17 this will be a good opportunity for you to meet with the project team to discuss the scheme or your concerns in greater detail and then it says we need your feedback on external cladding window designs heating and hot water system external canopy
00:50:28 and hot water system external canopy and surrounding areas did you provide feedback
00:50:31 feedback on any of these proposals did i myself yes so i did yeah along with others uh so
00:50:42 along with others uh so 15th of july this is and i think that they're
00:50:46 they're i mean one this is not a good i'm not trying to be think that july and and august is like a lot of people were not around it was the school holidays um i think that i think at the one of the
00:50:57 i think that i think at the one of the first meetings it was only myself and maybe tanya dalco another resident from the tower
00:51:02 the tower who was at the drop in and then what they used to do is is they used to kind of stick a note up in the lift giving you like four or five days notice before the meetings like we had nothing better to do with
00:51:13 like we had nothing better to do with our time than attend their meetings and and it's actually this is a little bit better because you can see that this is issued on the 15th and their advertising events kind of i think starting from the 19th or whatever
00:51:25 think starting from the 19th or whatever so there was a paucity of attendance from residents because of notice and because of the fact that it was
00:51:31 it was being done in some holiday times and then
00:51:35 then the nature of the consultation was um so the cladding was barely i don't i don't
00:51:42 don't really remember cladding at any of the meetings i was at discussed in any depth at all i i do remember there was some um posters that they had i remember because one of the posters fell off the wall
00:51:53 one of the posters fell off the wall and i was thinking if they can't stick a poster on the wall how the hell are they going to do grenfell tower so that was kind of like a little bit of a thing so they had some some some examples of
00:52:05 they had some some some examples of cladding some examples of windows some examples of heating system but for for the kind of the way the consultation was it was like it was what was concerning us it wasn't really what they wanted to tell us it
00:52:16 really what they wanted to tell us it was like
00:52:17 was like so for us it was about our ability to clean the windows because we hadn't been able to clean the windows some people wanted to make sure that they could keep their windows open because if they was going to put cladding on the outside of the building
00:52:28 cladding on the outside of the building which was already a very warm building to make it even hotter and then we wanted to make sure that we could open our window so we had some ventilation and then there was like a bit of a problem with stuff falling out windows
00:52:39 problem with stuff falling out windows so there was concern that they might just
00:52:41 just like lock us in the tower with added cladding so that that was kind of that was kind of like one of the major issues another major issue was the um so around
00:52:52 another major issue was the um so around the base of the tower there was a a kind of like um uh canopy that's external canopy and everyone in the tower was really really keen that we keep the canopy canopy there because you know it was
00:53:04 canopy there because you know it was possible for things accidentally to fall out the window it was possible for things to to not accidentally fall out the window which was a big problem and we wanted to have a canopy around the base
00:53:16 the base uh the heat in was a major major problem so people so those were kind of the free things that people and then keeping the um boxing club
00:53:24 club and keeping the nursery people were very keen that they remained where they were so it was kind of like that's what was coming from us that was what was coming from the residents that were at the meetings that i was at right okay now can we um uh
00:53:40 uh look at cladding particularly um he said we need your feedback on external cladding what what did you think when you saw
00:53:51 what what did you think when you saw that
00:53:52 that you were being asked to tell the tmo so i i you know i was pretty engaged with this process but i didn't have and i'm not sure that anyone else really
00:54:03 and i'm not sure that anyone else really did have any i mean i i can't speak for meetings i wasn't at or you know but we was like the concern was about those issues that i've told you about
00:54:13 about rather than something that we had that was kind of like coming down the track it was like so you know i don't remember like a portion of any of the meetings that i attended
00:54:24 that i attended being a an in-depth description of cladding its function different types of cladding different implications of having different types of cladding and and my understanding was is that you know which was was told to me by
00:54:36 know which was was told to me by councillor blakeman further along that that the cladding had always been chosen by the planning department anyway so
00:54:43 at this time this is july august 12 do you recall whether as part of the feedback process anybody from the residents had raised a
00:54:54 anybody from the residents had raised a question or concern about fire safety or the fire safety implications of the refurbishment
00:55:04 so not in relation to as far as i'm aware because i wasn't aware that we had any conversation about the cladding and i just said a button especially about but i think if it was it was more the
00:55:15 but i think if it was it was more the historic
00:55:16 historic things that i've told you about already i see can we go to tm0084807 and go to page five now this is a document we looked at earlier together
00:55:27 document we looked at earlier together this morning mr defan uh it's the um emb meeting of the 15th of may 2012. so a little bit earlier in the year
00:55:39 year before this consultation um document we've just seen or regeneration newsletters we've just seen and on page five you'll see that at the very top of the page uh
00:55:52 that at the very top of the page uh bruce confirmed there is no damage to the tower so we'll hold the cladding well the cladding will give lots of insulation and heating loads will reduce ed stated they do not want double glazing
00:56:03 stated they do not want double glazing they want soundproof glass ds suggested triple glazing bruce stated that that is worth considering however double glazing by nature is soundproofing was there any further
00:56:14 soundproofing was there any further discussion either at this meeting or otherwise with studio e about the cladding do you remember about the cladding yes at this meeting at this meeting or otherwise i
00:56:25 otherwise i i don't remember cladding being discussed at any of the consultation meetings that i was at i don't i just it just there were these posters that they had
00:56:37 posters that they had and then it appeared on the newsletter that we had chosen zinc but i wasn't party to those discussions they weren't it wasn't like we'd spend 20 minutes talking about windows 20 minutes talking
00:56:49 talking about windows 20 minutes talking about he
00:56:49 about he in 20 minutes talking about cladding it was residents coming with their concerns putting their concerns across and the meeting would end and no one was concerned with the cladding because it was kind of like
00:57:00 it was kind of like i think there was something that came from the um uh residence forum that that and that people didn't want it to look like the academy but the academy hadn't even been clad by then so maybe it was more like there was a
00:57:11 maybe it was more like there was a concern that it would look like westfield the shopping center people didn't want it to look like westfield um can we go then forward in time but not far to june 2012 tmo one double zero
00:57:23 to june 2012 tmo one double zero three seven six six four page one
00:57:29 this is an email on the 15th of june 2012 from you to siobhan rumble at the tmo dear siobhan you say please would you be kind enough to email me and let me know if you've had
00:57:40 had an opportunity to talk with mark anderson with regards when the residents will be given a chance to interact with the architects and be allowed to influence
00:57:46 influence the designs for grenfell tower do you remember whether siobhan rumble replied to you uh i i mean if we haven't found the email then i would assume that she
00:57:57 email then i would assume that she hasn't
00:57:58 hasn't we haven't been able to okay no you don't remember did you chase the one do you remember not getting a reply and and chasing her for one
00:58:06 for one so i think so so siobhan directly i don't remember and there would have been evidence of it if i had right did you speak to mark anderson about having input into the designs or being able to influence the designs
00:58:18 or being able to influence the designs for grenfell tower so i think consultation was a bit of a kind of running source so if it wasn't mark anderson it would have been judith blakeman if it wasn't judy flakeman as you see further on i i've raised concerns with claire williams and
00:58:30 concerns with claire williams and uh nicholas paget brown yeah but did you speak to mark anderson not having had a response from siobhan siobhan rumble did you speak to mark anderson about having input or influence
00:58:43 anderson about having input or influence over the designs
00:58:48 if i'm really honest i i can't remember at that time whether i did or didn't um when you said uh that you wanted or we were asking about a chance to interact with the architects and be
00:58:59 interact with the architects and be allowed to influence the designs for grenfell tower what input into or design over in the design what input into or influence
00:59:11 the design what input into or influence over the design did you have in mind for residents
00:59:15 residents well i mean so so the issues that i've raised with you already about the canopy um about uh the heating um the windows so to be able to
00:59:26 um the windows so to be able to influence
00:59:27 influence those and we we were we would so so so that to me the consultation wasn't about coming to consult with residents it was about coming to tell the residents what you were getting
00:59:38 residents what you were getting and that they learned that from rbkc with the calp project that was exactly how we were treated when they did the kelp project they don't do things with you they just do things to you and that's
00:59:49 they just do things to you and that's why at the very beginning it didn't sit right it's like you shouldn't have to treat people they would have learned a lot from us had they included us you know we were just they were our
01:00:00 you know we were just they were our homes it was our community it was our residential amenity and then we just had these people coming in and just doing these things to us and it didn't sit right and that's why we were writing these emails
01:00:11 writing these emails well i i just wonder mr default that's a really
01:00:14 really that's really a fair criticism at least on the papers because we can see from the
01:00:18 the regeneration newsletter i've shown you that they were after your feedback um they said they were so that was insincere do you yes why do you say that because the tmo
01:00:29 yes why do you say that because the tmo were an insincere organization and i'm so sorry to have to say that but you can't trust a single word written by the tmo you can't trust the minutes written by the tmo and these newsletters to me were just a
01:00:41 and these newsletters to me were just a way of
01:00:42 way of progressing the project so they'd have a meeting
01:00:46 meeting then the next newsletter that would appear would contain what the tmo wanted to do
01:00:51 to do and it would be dressed up as consultation and to me that you know there's a form of resident participation called the ladder of participation
01:01:02 the ladder of participation and it goes from the very top of being people participating to tokenism to non-participation and we are at the bottom rung manipulation and this was what it was
01:01:13 manipulation and this was what it was about they just manipulated us and what to get what they wanted in and the process of consultation was manipulation in my mind and and the proof of it is is they didn't listen to a single word
01:01:25 is they didn't listen to a single word we said
01:01:27 we said we didn't get a canopy we didn't sorry continue we didn't we you know we never it never felt like a like a collaborative process we you know they took the canopy away the thing that
01:01:39 they took the canopy away the thing that was most important to us we weren't consulted about the windows that we got we didn't see the windows that we got until they were installed in the show flat three years later despite
01:01:49 despite us being promised that we would see the windows we never got to see the cladding despite being promised that we would see the cleaning so i i thought that there was a mock-up for residents to view which was
01:02:00 for residents to view which was set up at the foot of the tower in the june so so that cladding was set up for the planning department to come and look at not for the residents and the residents never had an opportunity to comment on that planning set up
01:02:11 comment on that planning set up and if they didn't that was set up for the planning department to come and look at and i know that because i saw jonathan ball coming down to look at it yes i see
01:02:24 yes i see as early as july 2012 there you say the the invitation to give feedback on the items we've seen was insincere and window dressing i think that's what you're telling us
01:02:35 think that's what you're telling us uh a little bit put words into your mouth but i think that's the effect of what you're telling us did you raise with the emb on whose board you still were in july 2012 the fact that you regarded
01:02:47 fact that you regarded uh the tmos and rbkc's invitation to give feedback as no more than insincere window dressing i can't remember if i did or whether i didn't it's probably quite likely that i
01:02:58 didn't it's probably quite likely that i did
01:02:59 did but as we go back to the i think that we just got to establish that the emb was not a force that could bring change so the enb would not be able to influence wouldn't be able to hold the tmo to account and make
01:03:11 tmo to account and make so that so that it would be a different experience the next time we sat down in a consultation meeting that they did the envy never had that they well well the whole time i was on the board they never had that power
01:03:22 the board they never had that power it's messy i mean i you know i think you know by writing you know i wrote a number of emails complaining about the consultation process
01:03:30 process as a way of expressing that i didn't feel that we had been consulted with i felt they were doing things to us rather than with us and that's my evidence to you
01:03:41 and that's my evidence to you let me just ask you then about um a specific
01:03:45 specific point about the cladding can we go to your second sorry your first witness statement at page 25. i want to show you paragraph 86 um you uh
01:04:00 say i think it's actually i'm sorry i've given you a bad reference it's it's um page 243 at the bottom
01:04:13 um page 243 at the bottom uh
01:04:18 uh yes that's right you say the nature of the cladding installed on grenfell tower
01:04:22 tower is a significant focus of the inquiry and so i've searched for references to cladding in my emails having done so and from memory whilst i made some requests for information about the cladding i was not provided with details
01:04:33 details as to what type of material was ultimately used and i did not recall any proper consultation with residents about the cladding which was placed on the building
01:04:40 building of all the concerns i raised about fire safety i was not aware that the cladding materials posed a risk i was not told about the cost of the cladding and how that had been reduced over time
01:04:50 over time i was never told that zinc cladding was ultimately replaced with combustible aluminium composite panels with polyethylene inside now
01:05:01 inside now just tracking through a little bit of history um before the 14th of june 2017 uh and indeed perhaps after uh
01:05:12 uh and indeed perhaps after uh were you aware of zinc cladding having originally been proposed
01:05:24 um so i know so it's difficult sometimes for me just to remember what i've seen after the fire and what i've seen before it because i know that there is a newsletter where there is like this example of zinc
01:05:35 there is like this example of zinc cladding
01:05:37 cladding um yes i'm going to show you that right let's do that okay um let's see that uh tmo one triple zero
01:05:45 zero one four zero one and i'd like to go to page 40 in that document this is uh part of the engagement statement and
01:05:58 uh part of the engagement statement and let's look at it a little bit uh more closely than we have the other parts of this document
01:06:06 it says uh on the left hand side in the in the oblong dark blue section cladding system various clouding
01:06:17 section cladding system various clouding options have been shown to residents with the composite zinc cladding system being favored by the majority uh first of all did you see this document at the time do you think
01:06:28 this document at the time do you think so so this is was included in a newsletter or uh it looks like it's a newsletter yes okay
01:06:37 okay it i should just have shown you this actually it starts on page 38 you're quite right um let me just show you 38. this is the next newsletter on from the one i showed you this is first of august 20. okay so it's right in the middle of the
01:06:48 it's right in the middle of the consultation process and you're being appears bombarded with these things and there's feedback from residents
01:06:54 residents and if you go to page 40 there you see cladding systems various clouding options have been shown to residents etc do you remember reading that in a this newsletter or a newsletter like this at the time
01:07:18 so if i'm completely honest i i can't remember whether i saw this then or i didn't i'd all right i'm sorry it may my next question
01:07:26 question but one uh self-answering but do you remember is it is it correct that various cladding options had been shown to residents with the composite zinc cladding system
01:07:37 with the composite zinc cladding system being favored by the majority is that factually correct so i would go back to my original evidence i just gave you a few minutes ago saying how how the consultation took place and
01:07:47 place and there was never a run through of what different types of cladding was there was uh
01:07:51 was uh some boards but i don't remember there was this kind of engagement of look this is rain screen this is what rain screen will do this is zinc this is the benefits of zinc you know there's a higher fire safety
01:08:03 you know there's a higher fire safety performance with this that never happened at none of the meetings that i was at so i don't know how they came to this conclusion i see so sorry i'm coming to the question then that that i suspect you won't be able to
01:08:15 that that i suspect you won't be able to answer
01:08:15 answer when you look at the middle of that page um just below the photograph of the building you can see to the right of the green
01:08:21 green box it says vmz composite is a system made up of two sheets of zinc and a high density mineral rich core combining the qualities of zinc with the rigidity and flatness of
01:08:33 with the rigidity and flatness of composite
01:08:35 composite and then on the to the right of that you can see there's a little diagram which identifies as item two polyethylene core fr fire retardancy was that on your radar at the time um
01:08:48 was that on your radar at the time um you know it wasn't and it's only become on my radar because what's happened okay did i think the answer is probably no but let me ask it anyway did that register with you did this fact register
01:08:59 register with you did this fact register with you the fire retardancy of the polyethylene core of the zinc cladding as something important to the residents at the time well as i mean my evidence to you is that we weren't involved in
01:09:10 that we weren't involved in any detailed discussion about do we know i mean i'm pretty my evidence is we were not provided with samples so we weren't able to look at something and you know see that it had a
01:09:23 something and you know see that it had a filling in it or so you know like you know be interesting to know how this got pushed forward because i don't think it was the residents pushing it forward
01:09:34 forward and and sorry would it follow from what you've just said about this that you were not aware at the time that there was a distinction certainly so far as fire performance is
01:09:46 certainly so far as fire performance is concerned between the two types of materials a zinc cladding with a fire resistant polyethylene core on the one hand and aluminium composite material
01:09:57 aluminium composite material panels with an ordinary non-fire retardant core polyethylene so my understanding about cladding at that time was
01:10:05 time was like virtually zero now in the light of that
01:10:09 that in uh
01:10:12 late 2013 so moving on about 16 months from this yeah and at any time during 2014 did anybody ask you or any other residents to your knowledge
01:10:24 other residents to your knowledge for your views about changing from zinc cladding to aluminium no and it would follow that nobody sought
01:10:36 and it would follow that nobody sought your views about whether there should be a change
01:10:38 a change from cladding with an fr core to cladding without no no one else to say
01:10:46 say now i appreciate that hindsight might make answering my next question a little bit difficult but if you went back to 2012 now how do you think that resident
01:10:57 now how do you think that resident consultation could have had an impact on the fire safety of the materials chosen for the external rain screen at grenfell how could it have done yes would have
01:11:08 how could it have done yes would have been provided with proper you know informed information and more residents have been involved rather than just giving a few days notice
01:11:17 notice um you know them talking about you know i mean i only really come to sort of understand about cladding and i mean i saw the fires in like dubai or whatever
01:11:28 like dubai or whatever but even then i didn't sort of connect that with what could happen to our but it was like i didn't get the connection and i think i mean i don't know if we're going to talk about my freedom of information requests to
01:11:39 to attend the monthly meetings because i think that would have allowed us to get the information that we wanted
01:11:46 we wanted right uh well um sorry uh the dubai fires i think are 2015 aren't they okay but so so for me there was like there was like not really a connection between what they were doing to the
01:11:57 between what they were doing to the outside of our building and fire safety but and even after the dubai fire i didn't really make that connection no so so that i guess that just demonstrates the kind of lack of
01:12:09 demonstrates the kind of lack of knowledge that we had as residents around what was being put well i can't speak for everyone but what i had about but again i mean you're not a fire safety professional so perhaps that's that's surprising but but
01:12:20 perhaps that's that's surprising but but can i just ask you going back to your point about the hot building um yeah mr anderson of the tmo and i'm summarizing his evidence i hope not unfairly when he gave evidence in module
01:12:31 unfairly when he gave evidence in module one last year said that one of the reasons that the tmo had considered overclouding the building was reports from residents that the thermal efficiency of the building was very poor was that uh was that something that you
01:12:43 was that uh was that something that you were concerned about or you heard concerns expressed about so so my understanding of that is that was more like based with the leaseholders who were paying extremely high service charges
01:12:54 charges for the loss of um stuff like uh their fuel right and and that that concern mainly came from them that they were that they were being
01:13:04 being charged this extortion amount of money and they couldn't understand how this fuel was you know how this how the service charges were so high so also i might not have explained that very well no i don't you've opened
01:13:16 very well no i don't you've opened opened up an issue which i don't think um that was that would be shah ahmed and tunde and but in relation to in relation to thermal efficiency and the connection with that
01:13:27 with that i'm not sure i understand we put the question a slightly different way to your knowledge was uh the thermal efficiency of the building a widespread concern of residents throughout the
01:13:38 concern of residents throughout the building
01:13:39 building so i don't think so because i think all of us found the building very hot right despite the fact that the windows were kind of out of date and needed replacing because there were gaps so there was some fuel poverty between
01:13:50 so there was some fuel poverty between the windows but the building still managed to retain its heat so did it did it remain warm in the winter and reasonably cool
01:14:01 warm in the winter and reasonably cool in the summer so i never i don't we had heating i don't think i ever turned my heating on almost the whole time i was there and then during the summer it would get hot so we would have to open our windows
01:14:13 open our windows and that's why opening our windows was so was quite an important thing i asked this question because i think one of the purposes of the uh over-cladding at least the insulation aspect of the cladding was to try and
01:14:25 aspect of the cladding was to try and keep the building cooler in summer and warmer in winter but you obviously didn't feel the cold in the winter didn't feel the cold in the winter no it was always puzzled me
01:14:36 was always puzzled me the reason that for the thermal efficiency of the building i mean we had like a
01:14:40 like a two inches of concrete or whatever it was that didn't seem to be i mean fixing the windows would have helped properly which they never even managed to do at the end all right thank you okay sorry um
01:14:53 okay sorry um can i then ask you some questions about the ride and tender review process yeah are we going to another tour oh and we are mr chairman quite right it just seemed to me that if you're going to know the topic this could be a
01:15:05 going to know the topic this could be a good point yes a good point yes i think it's time we had a bit of a break just to define so we'll take that now we'll come back please at 25 to 4. okay and again please don't
01:15:16 25 to 4. okay and again please don't discuss your evidence with anyone while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much
01:15:32 good 25 to 4 please
01:31:08 yes would you ask mr de farm to come back in please
01:31:29 all right mr stefan yes thank you ready to carry on good yes thank you very much yes
01:31:34 yes thank you mr chairman uh mr defon two things before i get back to my track um the first is a correction uh to what i put
01:31:41 i put to you before um can i ask you please to go to
01:31:44 go to tmo one double zero three seven six six six please
01:31:55 uh i put to you under a different reference
01:31:59 reference of the email that you sent to siobhan rumble on the 15th of june do you see that as the second email down there
01:32:08 there about mark about having an opportunity to talk with mark anderson about uh influencing the designs for grenfell tower and i suggested to you i think that you've had no response
01:32:20 you've had no response to that email from siobhan rumble in fact i was wrong about it okay and if you look at the top you can see that she does respond to you the same day and says good morning eddie
01:32:31 the same day and says good morning eddie mark emailed me yesterday to say he was busy but would call last night i'm guessing he was still busy as he didn't call
01:32:36 call i'm about 10 minutes from the hub so we'll pop into his office and have a word with him if he's in um so i that was the response there was one do you remember whether
01:32:47 one do you remember whether that issue question was taken any further
01:32:50 further i can't remember i'm sorry the second thing i wanted to show you uh was the stairs of shame yep um that's at iws402230
01:33:01 at iws402230 just to put that into the record um it's part of the what it is it is a uh a blog post
01:33:10 blog post um put up uh on the 13th of august 2014. it's only about a week before the one we were looking at before and there's a photograph there uh are those the stairs of shame
01:33:23 uh are those the stairs of shame as it were indeed and uh there's a message
01:33:27 message uh in relation to to that because um if you go to
01:33:40 uh
01:33:48 if you go to
01:33:52 uh just give me a second to see if i can find it
01:33:57 yes it's in the third paragraph down on page two in addition it says residents are very upset that the tmo and ryden's believe that they can treat us like cattle and simply hurt us around lancaster west by way by closing off our rights of way
01:34:09 by way by closing off our rights of way without providing any alternative routes a present if you happen to be a mother with push chairs and children the community elder disabled or infirm and you cannot negotiate four flights of
01:34:20 and you cannot negotiate four flights of stairs pictured above then the tma believe they have the right to force us on a half-mile detour we believe that this treatment of the vulnerable within our community is both illegal under disability legislation and it's
01:34:31 under disability legislation and it's highly disrespectful and immoral now just pausing there i i don't think this point is a point you took up directly with the tmo other than through this blog am i right
01:34:44 um i can't remember raising it in another forum right um did the tmo after seeing after you publish that come back to you or mr o'connor
01:34:55 or mr o'connor and and take this point up with you either by way of disagreement uh or by way of um giving you reassurance um i can answer for myself no right
01:35:08 um i can answer for myself no right now can we get back to where we were which is the ryden tender review process can i ask you to look at claire williams's first statement to the inquiry at
01:35:19 inquiry at tm00840364 please page eight paragraph 39 she says there residents were invited
01:35:33 in the second line residents were invited to take part in the tender review process so just pausing that that that happened in the first quarter uh february in fact 2014 just for your
01:35:46 february in fact 2014 just for your recollection residents were invited to take part in the tender review process nobody responded to the general requests for assistance and participation and so i personally contacted a number of people to invite them to participate
01:35:58 of people to invite them to participate and ultimately i persuaded two leaseholders namely pillyburton flat 165 now sadly deceased and mr barakat fled 92 to provide a view on behalf of residents and they assisted us when no one else
01:36:09 and they assisted us when no one else came forward they were involved with and looked at the part of the tender concerned with the residence consultation process and the participation with residents did claire williams invite you
01:36:22 claire williams invite you particularly to take part in the tender review process so um can i just so so the pilli burton and mr bacharach was um the pqq yes
01:36:35 um the pqq yes which was done in november 2013 30th of november is it well let me just just focus on my question first please will you where she says residents
01:36:47 please will you where she says residents were invited to take part in the tender review process were you invited to take part so so there's it's kind of i'm so sorry but there's a bit of like a long not long but there's a bit of a backstory to that and
01:36:59 backstory to that and and the fact is that we were advocating at a meeting i think in um uh august that that resident should be included
01:37:07 included and i think again in september and then there was a final meeting in november so i was part of the residents that were saying you need to include us in this process
01:37:17 process but then when it came down to the um what i thought was the 30th of november i'd had again i had a couple of things going on in my life that made it my aunt that actually passed away just at that
01:37:28 that actually passed away just at that time
01:37:28 time and uh um and i went to no no no my that's sorry that's where my aunt had her stroke around that time and then i went to australia on the 1st of december
01:37:38 december so i wasn't able to partake in in that process myself but we had been advocating for people to take part in that process are you referring to the public consultation meetings
01:37:51 consultation meetings they were still in so in so public consultation meetings for residents yes so yeah in in 14 after the so sorry in 13 after the power
01:38:02 after the so sorry in 13 after the power surges we waited a long time to meet with ryden so there was a meeting in june august and september i missed sorry yeah that's okay i'm going to come to the consultation in just a moment okay
01:38:13 just a moment okay i am going to cover i think that what you've just told us in a little bit more detail in in a moment can i just get an answer to my my question did claire williams invite you specifically to take part in
01:38:24 invite you specifically to take part in the tender review process i don't remember her did anybody else at the tmo tell you that residents were being invited to participate in the tender review process
01:38:35 tender review process as she says in this statement the reason i pause is because of the the
01:38:47 the reason i pause is because of the the problem i have in my mind and remember some of this was quite a long time ago is that from i can't the disconnect is that i have is i can't can't understand what happened between us advocating to be included
01:38:59 advocating to be included and it going ahead without of without us right
01:39:02 right and i don't i my evidence to you is that i don't know whether that was because we were excluded from that process or whether life just took over and i wasn't able to do it i followed i'm sorry for that no i followed sorry
01:39:13 sorry for that no i followed sorry just let me be clear about this you can see what she says in line three she refers to general requests for assistance and participation now do you recall any uh requests
01:39:27 now do you recall any uh requests going out to tenants generally to take part in assessment i believe they put something in one of the newsletters asking for people to take part right but you either didn't want to or weren't
01:39:39 you either didn't want to or weren't able to respond to that is that right so that that's my that's where i could yes yeah thank you that's helpful thank you okay thank you mr chairman um mr define let's just take this a little
01:39:51 mr define let's just take this a little bit in stages because we might we might be able to to get to the bottom of it a bit better that way can i ask you first to go to another part of this witness statement page 30
01:40:02 witness statement page 30 paragraph 170 and we can see what ms williams says there
01:40:09 there she says whenever there were any public meetings involving grenfell tower the meetings could become difficult with disruptive conduct from a small number of residents who took over and dominated the meetings with their
01:40:20 dominated the meetings with their comments
01:40:20 comments to the exclusion of other residents who complained to me about this as a result at the drop-in session on 12 december 2013 we undertook a survey on how people wanted to be consulted
01:40:32 wanted to be consulted which showed the majority of people did not want formal meetings this was published to residents in the january 2014 newsletter this meant that subsequent consultation was largely by drop-in sessions
01:40:43 was largely by drop-in sessions newsletters and on a one-to-one basis wherever or whenever that could be achieved now do you agree that public meetings
01:40:54 do you agree that public meetings by the end of 2014 could become difficult with disruptive conduct from a small number of residents um i would say that the meetings were difficult
01:41:06 difficult disruptive i i would say no i would say that there were there were a number of residents that were prepared to you know
01:41:17 were prepared to you know hold the people to account and i don't think they were disruptive i think
01:41:24 think they may have been challenging they may have been slightly unpleasant for the tmo but you know they weren't i wouldn't say they were disruptive i would have said
01:41:36 they were disruptive i would have said they were just they they may have been unpleasant for the tmo because they were being challenged about what they were doing
01:41:40 doing so was one of those residents you yeah right one of them was me claire williams told us
01:41:48 told us sorry i started my next question and you haven't quite finished i said one of them was me one of them but i wouldn't use the word disruptive no i would use the word that we were prepared to challenge what was being
01:41:59 prepared to challenge what was being told to us i understand now claire williams said when i asked her about that sentence uh on day 56 and for reference purposes it's
01:42:10 it's pages 50 17-25 and 51 one to six um that she said that you were one of those residents and you agree but you don't agree that
01:42:21 and you agree but you don't agree that you were disruptive i understand your evidence
01:42:26 was it your impression from being at those meetings that some residents felt unable to contribute because of the actions of other residents
01:42:38 residents no that is not my right understanding in fact quite the opposite i think that people would felt more empowered to speak out because others were speaking out to them were you aware of drop-in sessions at
01:42:49 were you aware of drop-in sessions at grenfell tower at this time late 2013. are these coffee mornings or something different drop-in sessions is what they've been called uh not really i mean i by now i i kind
01:43:02 uh not really i mean i by now i i kind of
01:43:02 of wasn't really engaging in i i was happy to write emails to them now let me show you a an email that judith blakeman sent
01:43:16 on the 11th of december 2013. so the day before the 12th of december 2013 drop in session referred to by ms williams here this is at rbk403386
01:43:43 uh now uh
01:43:47 it's quite a long email second one down and it's
01:43:51 and it's uh to rock fielding melon copy to laura johnson and nicholas padgett brown wednesday 11th december 2013 at 7 51. uh dear rock thank you very much for the
01:44:04 uh dear rock thank you very much for the clarification and she says as a ward councillor i can confirm that mr defon does not represent the general opinion on the estate tunde does represent the views of the
01:44:15 tunde does represent the views of the grenfell tower leaseholders on the issues of concern only to those leaseholders and the lady who i suspect was christine richard is the chair of the lancaster west
01:44:22 west residents association so to an extent can claim to represent some local views uh and then it goes on about the school and then halfway down the email she says this
01:44:33 this unfortunately mr dufan continues to claim that he and his colleagues represent the estate they speak very loudly indeed and their views do influence people i'm confused as to how many meetings with them have actually taken place
01:44:44 with them have actually taken place i was at the first one you held at the emb rooms you refer to a further one of which i'm also aware but i'm told that there have been at least two meetings and possibly more with the leader my personal view is that continuing to give these people so much access to put
01:44:56 give these people so much access to put their views is unhelpful as it gives them greater legitimacy which they then use in discussions with residents
01:45:01 residents mr defan keeps shouting that this is democracy and any attempt to silence him is undemocratic i would call it more bullying than democracy they are also strenuously claiming that the council wishes to cleanse the estate socially by
01:45:12 cleanse the estate socially by demolishing the finger blocks and people do tend to believe this at the moment mr dufan
01:45:18 dufan something but he has been so disruptive during the grenfell tower consultations that peter madison has suggested and i have agreed that we do not hold any more open meetings indeed while complaining loudly at the delay and obtaining planning permission
01:45:29 delay and obtaining planning permission mr defan then sought to delay it further by submitting a couple of additional objections the last open grenfell tower consultation was attended any by mr dufan and some leaseholders who as i think you're aware have a different set of access to grind
01:45:43 uh and then she goes on over the page positive side number of productive drop-in sessions and also good responses when tma staff knock on the doors of
01:45:54 when tma staff knock on the doors of grenfell tower residents this does seem now to be the preferred way forward we have a drop in tomorrow at an empty flat that has been set up to demonstrate how some of the improvements will work the difficulty i encounter on the front
01:46:05 the difficulty i encounter on the front line is that so much information becomes distorted in transmission that it becomes very difficult to counter it all i'm sure this situation will continue for some time but his last very aggressive face-to-face confrontation with me
01:46:17 face-to-face confrontation with me after the last grenfell tower consultation mr defan said we will reform the grenfell action group and we will fight but when i asked him what they were going to fight he became completely confused
01:46:27 confused and moved away um now i've read that to you because uh partly because the tmo have put it as their
01:46:34 their as part of their opening submissions and it's fair to them for me to to put that to you and ask your comments on it uh this is obviously miss miss blakeman's or councillor blakeman's
01:46:46 blakeman's or councillor blakeman's um observations uh is there anything in what i've agreed in what i've read out to you with which you would agree me put it that way round um
01:46:57 and not the main part of it no right so you don't accept that you sorry if you could go back to the top uh certainly go back to page one yes of
01:47:09 uh certainly go back to page one yes of course
01:47:15 so this this is the email that counts that was used by the tmo yes right to try and paint me as being irrelevant aggressive and stupid well i'm not sure irrelevant or well that's how rich are the words that are
01:47:29 that's how rich are the words that are used i don't think that's good that's fair
01:47:31 fair i've read it to you my question is is there anything in this with which you would agree
01:47:38 in the past that i've read to you
01:47:55 uh no
01:47:59 now it certainly looks from this that drop in sessions and then door knocks
01:48:11 drop in sessions and then door knocks were pro became preferred to consultation meetings as a fact is that what you observed um indeed they they told us they weren't
01:48:23 um indeed they they told us they weren't going to meet publicly with us anymore because they preferred to meet uh one-to-one or whatever and that that decision had been taken by a um uh survey which i always kind of doubted
01:48:35 uh survey which i always kind of doubted but
01:48:37 but now claire williams was showing you referred to a drop-in session the next day
01:48:41 day the 12th of december 2013 when there was a survey on the preferred means of consultation did you attend that drop-in session do you think i was away at the time of the i was you were in australia were you i was
01:48:53 australia were you i was right did you complete a survey about i was in australia could you not do it on did it did not did not come to you by email no right um let's then look at perhaps
01:49:06 no right um let's then look at perhaps how it
01:49:07 how it was described uh met3041714 please
01:49:17 this is the 16th of january 2014 grenfell tower regeneration newsletter that claire williams refers to and the date of that is on page two and if we look at the fourth paragraph
01:49:28 and if we look at the fourth paragraph down
01:49:30 down after the reference uh to the uh drop-in session she says we also asked those who came away okay i'm sorry i'll stop again we also asked those who came about the way we
01:49:42 asked those who came about the way we consult residents the majority said they preferred an individual letter posted to their letterbox 60 or alternatively emailed to them 25 now i don't think you received the um
01:49:55 now i don't think you received the um uh consultation document itself did you receive this newsletter
01:50:01 um so what day i got back from australia i think on the 15th of january so what what sorry what date system right the the next day as it turns out if you get it
01:50:12 next day as it turns out if you get it okay
01:50:12 okay then then i always accept that the majority of newsletters i would have received
01:50:16 received there's no reason why i shouldn't have done did you read it um sorry can we sorry can we just go back to the plane absolutely starts off dear residents
01:50:27 absolutely starts off dear residents happy new year to you all from the tmo you might remember that right so so i may have read it up right um
01:50:37 um did when you or if you did read it did you did you understand from it that there would now be no more public meetings on the subject of how consultation would happen or on the subject of the writing tender
01:50:51 um
01:50:55 so what i kind of like to say is that that wouldn't have surprised me really right but i'm not sure i would have just through that paragraph have understood the significance of what they were saying
01:51:05 saying can we go to max 401498 please
01:51:20 can we go to max 401498 please this is another newsletter from july 2014 we looked at earlier um and i showed you the part about fire safety
01:51:26 safety uh can i show you page one at the foot um coffee mornings successful coffee mornings were held on 26 june and 10th july
01:51:35 july those who came told us they found it really helpful to have their questions answered
01:51:39 answered i think you told us earlier that you didn't go to no i didn't go to coffee why didn't you go to the coffee mornings um well i may have been busy um and i mean they were held at like 11
01:51:50 um and i mean they were held at like 11 o'clock during the weekday um and then also you know by then i
01:51:55 then i there was nothing really i didn't really have anything to say in a one-to-one meeting with them right did you attend any other drop-in sessions or
01:52:06 attend any other drop-in sessions or meetings as advertised by the tmo at this time
01:52:10 this time at all during 2014.
01:52:15 uh not that i can remember
01:52:21 sorry sometimes the chronology is a bit with so much time and everything it's and such a long period of time it's a little bit hard to place everything but no i don't remember 14 being a time of
01:52:33 no i don't remember 14 being a time of of
01:52:34 of meetings right now i want to get back to uh the subject of grenfell community unite and the grenfell compact in the context of the refurbishment which takes us to the early part of
01:52:45 which takes us to the early part of 2015.
01:52:46 2015. so the following year from this newsletter right can i just say am i going to have a chance to sort of because judy flakeman said some pretty you know derogatory things about me there yes so
01:52:58 derogatory things about me there yes so i mean i have included my relationship with council blakeman in uh um my statement and i think that people should read that statement and understand the relationship that i had with councillor blakeman
01:53:10 had with councillor blakeman and why she might want to write something like that about me because i dispute what she wrote about me then yes which i think is i'm entitled to do because it's very derogatory i had a very difficult
01:53:21 derogatory i had a very difficult relationship with councillor lateman but i i was not aggressive towards her we we didn't get on with each other she particularly took a dislike to me a very vehement dislike to me and i think that kind of colored the way
01:53:34 and i think that kind of colored the way that she saw me and treated me and i'm sorry about that and we did have kind of periods where we've gotten better with each other but um yeah that's my evidence to you right is there anything you want to add
01:53:45 right is there anything you want to add to that do you know i don't really want to do it's kind of like dirty washing and i don't really want to do it in public but i i just think it's important for me to say that you know i had a very difficult relationship with with not
01:53:56 relationship with with not in fact surprisingly few of the characters i mean you know um simon lawrence i think i met once and you know so there were people saying like lots of things about me but in fact they didn't really
01:54:07 really know me or people don't need to understand the relationship that i was having with these people i mean you know council of lakeman came up you know
01:54:15 know part of the problem was is that you'd raise an issue about what was happening in the community and i felt that they would that that would be a reason for them to come after you personally rather than
01:54:26 come after you personally rather than understand that as citizens we have a right to raise concerns and if you do raise concerns or challenge policy or
01:54:33 policy or challenge how you're being treated that the default position shouldn't be to come after that person individually and i experienced that not only with councillor blakeman but i experienced it with nick padgett brown
01:54:45 with nick padgett brown many members of the council many council officers
01:54:48 officers and it's disappointing because you know i'm a social worker and i understand that you know you get all sorts in this world and you need to treat everyone fairly and and that didn't happen to me
01:54:59 fairly and and that didn't happen to me no
01:54:59 no so sorry about that thank you for thank you for sharing that with us uh one of the reasons i wanted to put the email to you is to give you a fair opportunity to say what you okay i'm happy to leave it at that as
01:55:10 okay i'm happy to leave it at that as well i think my statement explains that there were um periods when things were difficult you know like in my relationship with some of these bodies and you know i certainly you know there were
01:55:23 you know i certainly you know there were difficult times but we were going through a difficult thing and it was a there was a nasty thing happening to us it was kind of a consequence of all of that okay
01:55:32 that okay i understand and and i'm grateful for your sharing that with us thank you can i go back to the uh um the refurbishment 2015 grenfell community unite and and the
01:55:44 grenfell community unite and and the compact sure if we can go to your second statement please at page 57
01:55:53 you um identify paragraph 151 some concerns that grenfell community unite had
01:56:01 unite had about the refurbishment yeah and you've listed them in five sub-paragraphs there um cheap looking materials and shoddy workmanship
01:56:12 shoddy workmanship windows boxing and pipe work bullying and harassment by workmen including threats of legal action and unauthorized access to properties lifts being used by workmen and lifts not working now
01:56:24 not working now apart from concerns that you yourself raised
01:56:27 raised individually is it right that none of the concerns that grenfell community unite group that we see here listed by you were related to specific fire safety
01:56:38 were related to specific fire safety concerns so i i think a number were actually and the the placement of the hiu above the um electrical appliances which was something that david collins was very keen to get resolved
01:56:50 was very keen to get resolved and i think that the um uh
01:56:55 uh the changing in the floor numbers was something
01:56:59 something that we raised as a concern and i believe also the other issue that we talked about previously about access to the tower through the stairs of shame was something that we raised as a compact
01:57:10 raised as a compact i see uh i see um can we then move on uh [Applause]
01:57:22 to uh councillor blakeman's second statement met3045751 at page eight please
01:57:35 uh now this is her second witness statement
01:57:39 statement and she says at page eight second paragraph down following the refurbishment i worked with two residents mr defana mr thompson and together we drew up a matrix of
01:57:51 and together we drew up a matrix of outstanding problems this was sent to the tmo and i requested regular updates the matrix was a table highlighting some of the outstanding problems with a further column for the tmo and or ryden
01:58:02 tmo and or ryden to set up what actions they were taking to address the issues fire safety was an issue included in this matrix and the fact that the stairwell hadn't been included in the refurbishment i produces my exhibit jb-5 copies of the
01:58:13 i produces my exhibit jb-5 copies of the matrix from august 2015 and may 2016. now i'm going to show you both of those first the august 15 version m e t 3 0 is 4 5 7 6 2
01:58:30 please uh and you could see the form in which the matrix is set out there there's the number column there's the resident issue column and then
01:58:42 the resident issue column and then there's the response column tmo ryden response
01:58:45 response just looking at this it runs to just over two pages onto the third page do you recall which parts you worked on not specifically now right
01:58:56 not specifically now right uh we can see item 23 at the bottom of page two
01:58:59 page two change floor numbers back to reflect current flat numbers and find an alternative numbering system for the two new floors yeah that was an issue i think which you had raised the compact had raised right from the beginning wasn't it
01:59:10 the beginning wasn't it yeah from march 2015
01:59:15 uh and you can see the answer royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered so
01:59:19 so that the address is easily identifiable for the emergency services in the case of any
01:59:23 of any incident floors have been renumbered and temporary signage fitted until the final version is available floor levels have been altered and it is not possible to revert to the old numbering were you satisfied with that response
01:59:32 response i was so unsatisfied with that response that i carried out freedom of information requests to rbkc to obtain the correspondence they had with the royal mail
01:59:43 had with the royal mail to find out whether what they were telling us was true or not and what did you discover i think the outcome of that is it wasn't what it wasn't it hadn't come from royal mail
01:59:54 mail it would that was mine uh uh if you go to the next version in may switch 16 that's at rbk3046509
02:00:14 and again it's in the same format as you can see
02:00:20 and you can see the outstanding issues front door compensation fire alarm smoke vents lifts hiu cctv etc again do you remember which bits you worked on
02:00:31 bits you worked on and which is um we'll go back to the previous pages one yeah and then i think the fire alarm and smoke vents if that was one of yours was it
02:00:42 if that was one of yours was it well that that's when the alarm went sorry when the alarm went off and the smoke the vents went off and no far no fire fighters attended and the first
02:00:54 no fire fighters attended and the first people to attend was like the heating engineer and i thought that's a little bit strange that if you've got a fire alarm going off the first person that attends isn't the fire brigade it's a
02:01:04 a heating engineer and that's why i raised that as an issue with council blakeman at her surgery and then i believe that she put that into an email and made that into a complaint or question to um peter
02:01:16 complaint or question to um peter madison yes in early 16 i think yeah uh now and that's why it finds its way i think into this matrix yeah um how did you in general terms how did you and
02:01:25 you and uh willie thompson go about identifying the outstanding problems listed in these two
02:01:30 two matrices so by then we were part of the compact so we would hold regular meetings we had whatever it was six lead members and we would invite people to come and
02:01:41 and we would invite people to come and tell us what their problems were i think we did some door knocking around then as well some sort of you know just trying to find out what how people were feeling in the in the tower um can we then go to tm00846193
02:01:57 um can we then go to tm00846193 [Applause] this is an email from councillor blakeman to peter madison and claire williams on the 2nd of
02:02:08 and claire williams on the 2nd of october 2015. it's quite long and there are a number of issues in it but we can see from the first line the point of the email was to provide them with a list of issues raised with members of grenfell compact at a
02:02:19 with members of grenfell compact at a surgery meeting and uh first of all do you remember being at a surgery meeting with councillor blamen and indeed councillor atkinson so i think the meeting was actually just
02:02:31 so i think the meeting was actually just with councillor atkinson and uh i think that councillor atkinson then
02:02:36 then sent his concerns to councillor blakeman and she then constructed this email from that information if you look at the foot of page one have that on the screen item seven
02:02:45 seven it says they would like another independent inspection of the arrangements in the event of a fire yeah perhaps this might be better carried out at the end of the project although i think they have concerns about what would happen during the works in the event of a fire
02:02:56 in the event of a fire especially because of the floor numbering problem this request should also receive further consideration who was it who requested an independent inspection of the arrangements in the event of a fire
02:03:08 arrangements in the event of a fire so i believe this is linked to the um stairs of shame i see so so that's you know like a major issue that we've still got is that people can't get into the building if there was a fire
02:03:19 building if there was a fire um and then separate to that you have the floor numbering issues as well right was there a reason why grenfell compact considered it necessary to have an independent inspection of the
02:03:30 to have an independent inspection of the fire safety arrangements given that there was a fire risk assessor retained by the tmo
02:03:36 so like we were very very keen to have an independent inspection of what happened at grenfell through the housing property scrutiny committee and this may be some kind of legacy of that
02:03:47 this may be some kind of legacy of that of just
02:03:48 of just feeling more confident if it was someone that wasn't attached to the council or the kctmo
02:03:54 the kctmo yes you can see in this one there's there's a specific reference to the floor numbering problem yeah now we've seen reference to that in the matrix that had already been been raised in simple terms what was
02:04:07 been raised in simple terms what was what were the grenfell compacts concerns about a fire um arising from the what you call the floor numbering problem okay so it was if if you had a visitor to the flat they
02:04:20 if you had a visitor to the flat they end up getting lost the whole time because
02:04:22 because the whole numbering system just didn't make any sense and uh it would seem quite logical if our friends who even had some familiarity with the building would get lost then what would happen is the firefighters
02:04:33 what would happen is the firefighters came and how difficult it would be for them to make sense of what was going on it was it was just such an illogical great example of that someone that didn't know the building didn't know the
02:04:44 didn't know the building didn't know the community
02:04:44 community making the decision on our behalf that could have been sorted out in a completely different way in a very simple way just by renumbering the floors below but they didn't live there they didn't care about us didn't care about the
02:04:55 care about us didn't care about the impact
02:04:56 impact that read that changing the numbers of the floor would have on you so you've lived on the 13th floor for 20 years or
02:05:03 years or the 14th floor for all your life and next thing you're living on the 17th floor it's just like for no reason and and so there was that kind of concern but then that concern then transferred
02:05:14 but then that concern then transferred to how that might impact on people that didn't know the building and coming into the building sorry that's long-winded uh yeah now um turning to the topic of the refurbishment review in your statement
02:05:27 refurbishment review in your statement uh you've set out uh the efforts you made to have grenfell community unite granted recognition and explained and i'm summarizing that the tmo
02:05:38 i'm summarizing that the tmo eventually granted grenville compact recognition after lady borick victoria borick intervened in july 15 yeah
02:05:51 and after that time there was a meeting i think in december 2015 with victoria borick
02:05:56 borick did you attend that meeting do you think i did yes you did did you attend did you take
02:06:01 take the tmo attendance at the meeting as a positive commitment to working with the grenfell compact
02:06:08 so um it would have taken a lot more than just
02:06:12 than just one meeting with our mp with the tmo in the room to kind of signal the changing culture within the tmo organization uh it was a step forward because they at
02:06:24 uh it was a step forward because they at least now agreed to meet with us which they hadn't done um well they hadn't allowed us to form a group that could meet with them right so sorry right i mean there were other meetings as well there i think
02:06:36 other meetings as well there i think there was one in november and and two in uh and one in december
02:06:41 december um as well as one in october all of which i think the tmo had attended so i think by the time you get to the end of 15 there had been three meetings yeah at which uh lady boric
02:06:52 yeah at which uh lady boric uh tmo and the grenfell compact had all sat around the table yeah by the end of 2015. did you not get the sense that you might be able now at least to be able to raise residents collective concerns with the
02:07:03 residents collective concerns with the tmo and get somewhere so we we were able to sit with the tmo which hadn't like i said hadn't happened but in fact my experience is that once we'd formed as a compact we were kind of treated even worse than
02:07:15 we were kind of treated even worse than we were before by the tmo and we achieved even less and then within a matter of months the compact kind of we just couldn't take any more we just
02:07:26 any more we just it was just too much it was like so we disbanded the compact right i i i was gonna ask you you say in a nutshell actually you were saying we were kind of treated even worse than you were before
02:07:38 even worse than you were before in very brief terms can you describe what you mean by that how are you just okay being treated because how we were treated before and how we were treated then is like you know
02:07:48 know not being listened to not being respected not having people understand that these were our homes and our community um having things done to us rather than
02:07:59 um having things done to us rather than with us
02:08:00 with us um i mean if you know if you if a good organization is front-facing where they're looking towards their tenants to engage with them to listen to the tmo had their back to us the whole way through this process
02:08:13 to us the whole way through this process and that just became demoralizing and it just became and and that's kind of what led to the end of the you know our efforts to to deal with them and then within too long we had the fire and that was
02:08:24 long we had the fire and that was how it all ended right
02:08:29 i was going to ask you to give me a specific example can you give can you give me a specific concrete example of being treated worse okay so i will do so so we've been campaigning very very hard for the hiu
02:08:41 campaigning very very hard for the hiu units to be placed where they'd originally told us that they were going to place them and in fact then they just without any consultation decide to place them in the hallways and i know other other um witnesses have
02:08:52 i know other other um witnesses have given evidence about that that was like a major thing that happened to us that people did not did not like that and that's why a hundred people came to our original meeting but we were trying not just to
02:09:04 meeting but we were trying not just to have that victory of then having our own that the people who'd resisted having their hi units placed where they wanted them we were trying to get units that had been placed in the hallway for residents who didn't want
02:09:15 hallway for residents who didn't want them there moved and we had absolutely no movement with the tmo
02:09:21 the tmo about that just told it would be dealt with at the next meeting they'll be carrying out a survey if there's any money left they might do it so it's kind of like not been taken seriously that that's
02:09:32 not been taken seriously that that's you know that's kind of another example of how things didn't change for us in any meaningful way in fact i think it's right that in the end the tmo did agree to move the
02:09:43 in the end the tmo did agree to move the hiuu
02:09:44 hiuu units when you met with victoria borick and the tmo only for people that hadn't had them installed already yes indeed yeah but i think is what i'm putting to you
02:09:55 but i think is what i'm putting to you correct that in fact once victoria boracar got involved the mp had actually got involved then you saw some movement well also it took a campaign by about 40 residents putting signs on the outside of the door
02:10:06 putting signs on the outside of the door not allowing ryden into their flats so there was a concerted effort to uh to have that that upset a lot of people and in fact it was probably the tmo's greatest mistake in in their treatment
02:10:17 greatest mistake in in their treatment of us or in their ill treatment of us to do that without consulting with people because most people a lot of people just wanted to get on with their lives not have this major hassle the whole time but that was a step too far and um
02:10:30 but that was a step too far and um yeah it caused a lot of upset and a lot of
02:10:33 of you know people didn't want that in their homes but we still didn't manage to then get that for the people who had had that installed
02:10:41 installed we didn't manage to get that changed we were promised a survey by the tmo that was going to happen after the works that never happened there was lots of things can i ask you
02:10:52 there was lots of things can i ask you to go to another document iws 40224 this is an email dated third of january 2016 from you to sasha jevons at the tmo
02:11:06 and you say davis evans hope you had a nice christmas new year thank you for visiting my flat just prior to the holidays and for listening to some of my concerns regarding the relationship between residents on lancaster west and the tma
02:11:18 lancaster west and the tma if you are really serious in your offer to sit down with members of the grenfell tower residents association in order to work together to improve these relationships then i would be happy to speak to other lead representatives
02:11:29 representatives with the view of setting up a meeting early in the new year however to save everyone's time please do not agree to meeting with us unless your motives are entirely genuine and you are willing to use your power within the tma to instigate positive
02:11:41 within the tma to instigate positive change for the for our community i can assure you that most residents are totally fed up with the ill treatment and lack of meaningful resident involvement we're subjected to by the tmo
02:11:50 tmo and we'd be willing to work to find an alternative way forward i shall look forward to hearing from you in the near future regards edward de farn
02:11:59 farn now it appears from this that sasha jeffers came to you and visited you at home
02:12:04 home in december 2015. is that right that was part of
02:12:07 part of the tmo's door knocking after we'd done our door knocking prior to the housing property scrutiny committee and why so this wasn't a special visit no no she
02:12:18 so this wasn't a special visit no no she was visiting all that or her and her team
02:12:22 now it appears from this uh that she offered to work with members of the grenfell compact to improve relationships is that is that actually correct had she
02:12:33 is that is that actually correct had she offer to do that uh do you know what i i think this is an example of us the the conciliatory nature of us as residents in
02:12:40 in in i mean this this had come after like a lot of bad blood between the tmo and the residents and yet we were still willing to sit down wipe the slate clean start a new relationship with them that
02:12:53 start a new relationship with them that yes
02:12:54 yes you see i'm wondering because we'd have three meetings or you had had three meetings with the tma with lady borick present in october november and december 2015. having got that far do you know why
02:13:06 having got that far do you know why sasha jevens felt she needed to make the offer that you record here having had those meetings i'm not sure that she made the offer i think that we had a conversation and maybe
02:13:17 maybe like i made the offer to her that would she be willing to sit down with us and see if we can find a better way forward and then it doesn't come across out in that email but
02:13:28 that's that in fact that is my memory of it and that is my evidence to you right why did you think that the offer might not be genuine uh because of everything that had gone on before right so we needed we you know
02:13:40 on before right so we needed we you know if i was going to go and talk to other lead representatives and say sasha jefferson has been in my flat you know there's a chance that we can meet and
02:13:48 and i wouldn't you know i think we need some kind of concrete commitment from them that they weren't just going to be the normal tmo that they were going to actually you know try and change and do something
02:13:59 you know try and change and do something more you know resident facing did you get a response to this message so i i think that we we i think at this time so this third of january so this is like
02:14:11 so this third of january so this is like three days before the um housing property scrutiny committee meeting and i think i think that that was a very difficult meeting for us that was your speech which you say was well it wasn't my speech it was a speech
02:14:22 well it wasn't my speech it was a speech i made on behalf of the i'm sorry too
02:14:26 but it was a speech that i made on behalf of the compact yes so so i i think that we kind of decided that as compact um lead reps uh maybe we need to just
02:14:37 um lead reps uh maybe we need to just kind of
02:14:38 kind of leave things just be a little bit and let's just look at that because i was going to come to that now it's right i think that you addressed the
02:14:46 the housing and property scrutiny committee uh about the a petition that had been presented by councillor blakeman and councillor atkinson signed by 51 households so the petition
02:14:57 signed by 51 households so the petition that council of lakeman had presented enabled us to um uh have a meeting with the housing property scrutiny committee yes but there was another piece of information we took there which was our own petition
02:15:08 own petition sorry our own survey of residents yes and uh you uh
02:15:16 summarize the key issues that you raised in your second statement if we can just look at that at page 69
02:15:27 paragraph 182
02:15:34 you you say that i prepared a speech to read to the h at psc on behalf of the residents
02:15:39 residents i wanted to deliver our complaints to the council in a measured coherent cogent voice without being rushed however i wasn't even allowed to deliver the full speech as quentin marshall cut me off about two-thirds of the way through because he
02:15:51 two-thirds of the way through because he said i was taking too long the speech i was delivering was representing the views of a great number of residents who had endured years of hellish building works in and around our homes one of the first one of our first
02:16:02 one of the first one of our first residence meetings it involved around 120 residents the petition we had circulated which led to the hpsc meeting was signed by over 50 households however we were told by quentin marshall that my
02:16:14 we were told by quentin marshall that my speech that only lasted a few minutes was too long and he tried to prevent me from finishing its delivery to hpsc the minutes of the meeting are available on relativity and record a summary of my speech where amongst other things i raised a
02:16:25 raised a lack of consultation and resident engagement b threats harassment lies and intimidation from the tmo c lack of response to legitimate complaints d poor workmanship
02:16:36 complaints d poor workmanship and site management e the need for urgent scrutiny and an independent investigation and f the need for lessons to be learned for any future works and those issues are the same as those that you and david
02:16:47 are the same as those that you and david collins then raised later that year in april 2016 weren't they and you came you came to those again so so sorry in in april when did we raise
02:17:00 in in april when did we raise so this was the scrutiny committee meeting in january yes i'm sorry april 2015
02:17:05 2015 these are the same issues that in fact you had raised with um the tmo initially after the compact had been formed right okay yeah the previous year
02:17:16 okay yeah the previous year yeah yes yeah and nothing in essence as far as you were aware or you felt had changed since then
02:17:28 you felt had changed since then so i mean i think so most of the works have been completed by then um
02:17:34 then um [Music]
02:17:35 [Music] i mean i i yeah i don't know what could have changed between that then and so can we go back to the top i've got i'm on c here we could go back to the previous page yeah just so i can get a list of
02:17:47 page yeah just so i can get a list of so lack of consultation resident engagement that was an ongoing um historic issue we i don't think we'd felt that the frets harassment lies intimidation from the tmo
02:17:58 intimidation from the tmo whose survey we conducted i think in november
02:18:02 november so so i'm not sure we would have had that information for all the meetings with the
02:18:07 with the tmo and then we could go down to see you could turn the page please to page 70.
02:18:13 70. lack of response to legit was an ongoing issue poor workmanship and site management horrific need for urgent scrutiny and independent investigation which was our whole thing that we wanted someone
02:18:25 whole thing that we wanted someone not tmo to investigate themselves and of course the tmo investigating themselves and then the last one was the need for lessons um to be learned from any future works was what was called the grenfell pathway which was something that
02:18:36 which was something that david collins and judith blakeman had worked on which was a very useful document or could have been a very useful document had it been adopted
02:18:45 adopted did you have any fire safety concerns at this time of your speech so i'm not sure that fire safety concerns made it into that speech
02:18:58 safety concerns made it into that speech um right okay all right now in general terms did rbkc ever respond
02:19:09 in general terms did rbkc ever respond to the points that you made in that speech so far as you got to make it uh the rbkc responded to that speech by ensuring that our concerns listed in that speech were
02:19:21 our concerns listed in that speech were never investigated independently but were investigated by the kctmo
02:19:26 the kctmo laura johnson ensured that that happened along with robert black and i don't know what other collusion was going on inside um
02:19:34 um the housing and property scrutiny committee meeting what role i'm quentin marshall had um condon simmons a council called condon simmons
02:19:44 simmons i mean it was very abusive evening in terms of going into the room and seeing laura johnson and robert black kind of you know
02:19:52 you know kind of just like laughing at us really and then you had the whole tmo chief exec sitting down it was a you know we spent a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to get the
02:20:03 and a lot of effort trying to get the right thing done but with a power imbalance against us it was just
02:20:08 was just we we couldn't control these things we couldn't
02:20:11 couldn't we we were promised an independent uh investigation a working group at that group at that housing property scrutiny committee by the time we were out of the door they changed it into something else they
02:20:22 they changed it into something else they changed it into the well it will happen if there's time when all the other groups are finished well actually the tmo will do it and the tmo ended up marking their own homework giving peter madison top marks for doing an amazing project
02:20:34 top marks for doing an amazing project management job and the truth of it was you know we might not be sitting here if someone independent had actually come and seen what had gone on some very short questions finally about
02:20:47 some very short questions finally about um
02:20:47 um gas pipes yeah um you oh sorry i'll show you the document iws 50169
02:20:55 50169 your uh
02:20:59 your uh uh exhibit i think page 82.
02:21:07 this is an email from you to ben dewis at the lfb dated 20th of march 2017 and you afforded an email of the 7th of march
02:21:18 uh below it you can just see that and in your email of the 20th of march you say dear mr dewis i'm requesting the london fire brigade come and inspect the new gas pipework that has been installed
02:21:29 new gas pipework that has been installed in grenfell tower the vice chair of the grenfell tower leaseholders association has made the following concerns public and these health and safety fears are backed up by a number of tenants we've also been informed that the national grid will not be returning to
02:21:40 national grid will not be returning to grenfell tower to re-earth the power supply
02:21:42 supply to newly installed meters please can you keep this correspondence private and confidential between ourselves as i fear repercussions from my landlord if they discover the source of this complaint
02:21:53 complaint did you share the concerns raised by gtla about the gas pipes i showed them sorry sorry did you did you um
02:22:01 you um yourself have oh sorry did i share those concerns yes um to a degree yes yeah to a degree did the gtla ask you to
02:22:12 yeah to a degree did the gtla ask you to raise these concerns with the lfb no i think i probably offered to do that you know we work quite closely together and i think you know i was probably able to say to dundee shah or whoever
02:22:24 dundee shah or whoever look i i you know i've got this guy ben dewis's
02:22:27 dewis's email address i'd be very happy to forward that on to him i don't think they felt that they were making the progress that they felt needed to be made and i i felt that i was able to help them by
02:22:38 i i felt that i was able to help them by at least bringing benji and ben jose and the lfb into it right uh now you asked ben dewis to keep the information private at confirmation confidential because you feared repercussions from your landlord
02:22:51 repercussions from your landlord from whom did you fear repercussions
02:22:55 yeah i mean
02:23:00 i guess maybe by that stage i was just getting a bit worn down with the tmo and the kind of um you know what i would perceive as like kind of you know victimization if you put your head above the parapet
02:23:12 put your head above the parapet so you know like i was explaining the um from the hornet's nest kept themselves anonymous
02:23:17 anonymous and i felt you know i don't know maybe it was it was i didn't do that on much other correspondence but i just felt that you know i didn't expect them to come
02:23:29 expect them to come come around sort of you know threaten me or anything but i just felt that um
02:23:35 that um that yeah i just didn't want my you know i was just getting tired of sort of how i was being treated really by the end of it all and that seemed like a way of keeping my sorry keeping my name out of it
02:23:46 sorry keeping my name out of it right it wasn't like it wasn't like i made a conscious decision to to you know do that on all correspondence to happen to be in that correspondence
02:23:57 to happen to be in that correspondence um okay thank you very much i've come to the end of my prepared questions bar one i do have one question for you but i'm going to ask it right at the very end if i may do that um but mr chairman it's probably a
02:24:09 um but mr chairman it's probably a convenient moment to take the break to see if there are other questions i think there are looking at my
02:24:14 my yes well would it be sensible this time to allow a little bit more time than we have been lately say course to five that would be very good yeah if we need longer which we might i can always well then you can always let me know yes but i'm grateful
02:24:25 always let me know yes but i'm grateful to you thank you i know it's half past four but now no no that's right um well mr stefan we always have a break at this point after council thinks he's got to the end of his questions just to make sure that he has and to
02:24:36 just to make sure that he has and to give other people a chance to suggest questions that we might need to put you so we'll um have a break now we'll come back if we may at quarter to five and then we'll see if there are more questions that we need to ask you okay
02:24:48 questions that we need to ask you okay all right and the usual requests please don't talk to anyone about whatever it is when you're out of the room of course okay thank you would you go with the usher please
02:25:08 right thank you costa fives and please
02:39:36 yes would you ask mr defaunt to come back in please
02:39:56 right mr farmwell we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes mr yes mr chairman just one or two um
02:40:02 um can i start by asking you to look at tmo
02:40:08 tm00830724
02:40:13 this is the grenfell tower regeneration newsletter from february 2016 and halfway down the page you can see that it says progress
02:40:27 page you can see that it says progress you will have noticed the following progress since christmas and then there is a
02:40:31 is a list with the little arrows
02:40:36 which are identified and you can see the list of of topics and then uh
02:40:48 and then uh if you go over the page uh to 16th february drop in for new billing system for heating 22nd february drop in for new door entry system to new view homes
02:41:01 system to new view homes i take it you didn't go to those dropping sessions so i they never actually managed to i never i never let them into my flat to put the new billing system in for my heating right so i didn't have to attend that
02:41:12 right so i didn't have to attend that meeting
02:41:14 why didn't you let them into your flat to do the
02:41:18 to do the well one was a mixture of when they tried to come when they wanted to arrange to come to my flat to do it it wasn't convenient for me because i wasn't there and then it just they didn't come back
02:41:29 and then it just they didn't come back so i was just left without um the meter i just had to pay my standard um like uh debit and if you look at the very foot of page
02:41:40 and if you look at the very foot of page two now you can see that it says compact meeting the next grenfell tower compact meeting
02:41:46 meeting will take place at 6 30 pm on 23rd february of the lancaster west community rooms
02:41:52 rooms and over the page page 3 for anyone who is not sure what a compact is put simply it's an agreement between representatives of a block or estate and the tmo which sets out how residents
02:42:03 and the tmo which sets out how residents will be involved in decisions affecting their homes this is an alternative to our residents association as a means of influencing decision making but without the formalities that go with it
02:42:17 did you realize when well first of all did you see this newsletter when it came through your door do you think and um i may like i've always said i i may well have done yes
02:42:27 done yes um you could see from it that the tmo and ryden because it's a it's a joint document
02:42:33 document we're advertising to everybody in the block the fact of the compact's existence and an explanation of what it was
02:42:45 and an explanation of what it was was that not something of assistance to you
02:42:49 you um well i mean we certainly were putting our own newsletters around the estate i mean it was a step forward i guess that they um were mentioning that there was now a
02:43:00 um were mentioning that there was now a compact
02:43:01 compact i mean uh we wanted to be a residence association we had to be a compact so just reading that's a little bit upsetting in itself because we weren't allowed to be a resident's association we had to call ourselves a compact
02:43:12 we had to call ourselves a compact but if you're asking me is this a sign of
02:43:15 of of progress and um you know i mean it is a sign because previously we hadn't been allowed to form a group the fact that they're putting on their newsletter i mean
02:43:27 newsletter i mean i mean yeah whoopee well yes have you said whoopee i mean was it their idea to do that or did you push for them to include the compact in the regeneration so i think what we'd have been pushing
02:43:39 so i think what we'd have been pushing for would be for like a more like openness that that there was a compact and that we we had you know it would be good if we could kind of
02:43:50 we could kind of um work more jointly together and if this was a sign of working more jointly together then that would have been something that we would have promoted as a result of this statement in this document in february 2016
02:44:02 in this document in february 2016 do you recall whether more residents of the tower
02:44:06 the tower sought to join the compact i very much doubt it i'm not sure how many other residents i mean like i may have been a bit of you know like i was would have read pretty much everything that came through the door i'm not sure by this stage
02:44:18 the door i'm not sure by this stage what i mean what other people were reading or whether it would have influenced them we had quite a um [Music]
02:44:24 [Music] you know quite a good well say myself but we you know the compact produced a newsletter and we i think i don't think i don't i don't think residents would have not known
02:44:35 think residents would have not known about
02:44:35 about us and their opportunity to be a part of what the compact was we called ourselves the ra but they would have known who we were they would have
02:44:44 have known where to find us and hopefully we were able to sort of represent people a bit better how many members were there of the grandfather compact so i i off the top of my head i don't know we had six or seven
02:44:56 know we had six or seven leads uh um like lead representatives they were called but i i don't know if we were required to sort of have a standing list of members i i'm
02:45:08 have a standing list of members i i'm not sure it worked that way i could be wrong so it might be well to check that but i i don't think we had to kind of go and say will you be a member of the compact i think we i think we had our our lead
02:45:19 i think we i think we had our our lead reps and
02:45:21 reps and then that allowed us to be the compact but you can see from our efforts to be democratic that we were inviting everyone to come to me and let their views be known so and i do
02:45:33 let their views be known so and i do think we did i think you know like i've gone back to kind of the the meeting that we had with uh grenfell community unite where you know we broke into groups tried to facilitate this kind of information sharing
02:45:45 information sharing putting it into one place so i see can i then ask you to go to tm00831726 at page seven
02:46:01 and i'm showing you this document in light of our discussion earlier about uh being shown the cladding this is the july 2014
02:46:13 this is the july 2014 grenfell tower regeneration newsletter and you can see
02:46:23 as you rightly say at the very beginning that the metal canopy around the block had been removed um and then you could see the photographs uh and then underneath that it says
02:46:33 it says from the next month the main temporary access will be the walkway from latimer road
02:46:37 road all the stairs from grenfell road and then it says we've now put up samples of the cladding panels for the council's planners to look at and approve these panels overlook the walkway yeah
02:46:50 these panels overlook the walkway yeah um
02:46:54 did you or anybody else to your knowledge
02:46:57 knowledge use that opportunity to have a look at the sample or samples of the cladding panels yourself um look i think that's that sentence
02:47:09 um look i think that's that sentence there says it all that they were put there for the council's planners to look at we couldn't avoid looking at them because they were stuck on the side of the building but it doesn't say you know we would welcome the views of
02:47:20 you know we would welcome the views of residents once they've had a look at the cladding
02:47:22 cladding because our our views did not count that was
02:47:25 was chosen by the planet council blakeman told me that the windows and the um cladding had been chosen by the
02:47:33 the rbkc planning department so i kind of always knew it was a done deal really yes
02:47:40 yes thank you very much um mr defaunt those are my questions but for one and i have a final question for you if you could summarize if you can in a sentence what was it that the tmo
02:47:54 in a sentence what was it that the tmo didn't do or rbkc didn't do that you say they should have done
02:48:16 um they didn't treat us with us with respect
02:48:21 respect or humanity or empathy and if they had done we wouldn't be sitting here now and i i i thank you for the work you're doing but what's really really important is that the culture of the kctmo
02:48:34 is that the culture of the kctmo the lack of scrutiny by rbkc is believed i believe and i believe many residents believe is a causative factor of what happened on the night of the fire
02:48:44 fire and what led to the fire and i just ask you that you bear that in mind
02:48:50 thank you thank you very much for all of your answers the hell of your evidence extremely grateful to you and it only remains for me to say thank you to you uh and to wish you well thank you and mr
02:49:02 uh and to wish you well thank you and mr dufan on behalf of the panel and myself we i think all three of us would like to thank you very much for coming to give your evidence today
02:49:09 today we've all found it very interesting and very helpful to hear uh what you have to tell us and um i'm sorry to take a day out of your life as it were to come and give it but we are very grateful thank you very
02:49:21 but we are very grateful thank you very much okay
02:49:22 much okay all right thank you well that's that's it then okay thank you so uh if you'd like to go with the usher you can make your way home okay thank you thank you
02:49:40 okay thank you thank you well mr millet that must be uh all we have time for today it is mr chairman yes we have uh other witnesses coming tomorrow we do uh and before the first day oral
02:49:52 we do uh and before the first day oral witnesses starts um there is some further
02:49:55 further resident evidence uh to be read into the record and i should be doing that thank you very much well we'll do that at ten o'clock tomorrow ten o'clock i'm most grateful thank you thank you i'm gonna talk tomorrow then please
02:50:24 you