Testimony from Karim Mussilhy, whose uncle Hesham Rahman died in Grenfell Tower, about the chaotic aftermath, complete abandonment by authorities, and desperate search for missing relatives.
00:00:22 so
00:00:31 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:35 hearing today we're going to begin hearing evidence from those who were directly affected by the fire but before we do that i'm going to invite mr keating to make one or two observations yes mr
00:00:46 make one or two observations yes mr keating good morning mr chairman good morning members of panel and before turning to hearing evidence today we thought it would assist you and the members of the public if we have a short and visual presentation of
00:00:59 have a short and visual presentation of the locality yes and to that end we have a presentation which has been prepared by the metropolitan police service it's it's it's labeled accordance presentation it focuses on the cordons which were in place at the time but also
00:01:11 which were in place at the time but also will assist us at looking at the locality and looking at those areas which were evacuated to evacuate the premises
00:01:18 premises and also um rest centers so i use the umbrella term as well so without further ado if i could invite our document presenter to bring up met triple zero 808.26
00:01:31 and what i'm going to do mr chairman your leave is we'll play it and from time to time i will pause and perhaps draw out and amplify some points which we hope will assist
00:01:42 which we hope will assist so we could press play please
00:01:46 we'll see in a moment that there will be a written text setting out to sources of information which the metropolitan police have used for these cordons doing their best
00:01:58 the reference to inspector thatcher who you'll have heard evidence from in phase one
00:02:05 and reference to 13 centers which we've asked to be included in this presentation
00:02:24 so we could press pause there just for a moment just to familiarize ourselves with the legend and the
00:02:31 and the red circles are the cordon points which obviously does a corn which is connected there and you'll see in green text a number of the umbrella terms we use are rest centers we'll see a better view in
00:02:43 rest centers we'll see a better view in a moment of both the locality and the rest centers but i'm going to ask if we could press play from now on please thank you
00:03:02 this is the same chord and points but with an overlay on an aerial image
00:03:13 and this is the initial chord we're about to see
00:03:20 and pausing there for a moment just in relation to that it's evacuated premises we're about to see a huge amount of people were displaced following the fire on the 14th of june and and what we're going to see in a
00:03:32 and and what we're going to see in a moment doesn't include bramley house it's and the reasons are set out there includes those which do with a full evacuation for so we can press play please
00:03:48 and we'll pause there thank you so to assist i'm sure that the panel is very familiar now with the locality but it perhaps would assist everybody we're going to hear a number of addresses
00:04:00 going to hear a number of addresses we see grenville tower obviously there in the center where there is the square and underneath that we see grenville walk and
00:04:10 and there is three blocks which flow from grenville walk termed the walkways so sometimes the finger blocks and we can see from the left hearst way
00:04:21 and we can see from the left hearst way walk
00:04:23 walk and we see then in the middle tested and walk
00:04:26 walk and then on the right barred and walk and then to the right of grenville road there is treadguild house treadgold house which was also evacuated and just whilst we're there we can see
00:04:37 and just whilst we're there we can see some of the rest centers which were used especially the clemens james center and i'll return to the garden bar in a moment so you can press play please
00:04:57 and we press pause again please
00:05:01 so in relation to um this map it's labeled a rest center map but it's probably fair to say that as a generic umbrella term there's a number of specific types of rest center which
00:05:13 of specific types of rest center which we perhaps don't need to trouble and the panel with just now and also it's right to mention that this does not refer to every locality which open its doors it's
00:05:24 every locality which open its doors it's it's evidence that a number of
00:05:27 of premises opened their doors in the morning on the 14th of june giving aid and helping people what we have is we've focused on a number of addresses which we think
00:05:36 we think and will assist you and members of public and witnesses going forward so if perhaps if i could just talk trudeau's addresses to assists if we look at the bottom left we see belushi's
00:05:48 we see belushi's and blue season is in shepherd's bush it's the furthest of all the addresses we're really looking at in relation to belushi's this was the first location of an official rest center where david curry from obkc dispatched
00:06:02 where david curry from obkc dispatched british red cross staff to on the morning of the 14th of june and british red cross did attend there the setup arrest center the next address i'd like to turn to is
00:06:14 the next address i'd like to turn to is harold club which again is a it's the center of the page on the left and this was one of a number addresses in a community which opened its doors spontaneously to assist
00:06:26 spontaneously to assist in due course british red cross staff were
00:06:30 were sent to that address to assist and people from the howard club were then moved very early on the morning of the 14th of june perhaps between six and seven am to portobello rugby trust
00:06:44 and seven am to portobello rugby trust and portable rogue trust can be seen in the center of the page and that was a premises which again opened its doors spontaneously early on the morning the 14th of june and was
00:06:55 the morning the 14th of june and was significantly involved in providing support on the 14th of june and the following day days and we'll hear evidence from mark sims during module 4 and from portobello rugby trust
00:07:08 and from portobello rugby trust we then have in the top left the westway sports center the west west sports center is a dress which we perhaps are very familiar with we've heard a lot about and it too opened its doors
00:07:20 and it too opened its doors spontaneously on the morning of the 14th of june it later became decided to consolidate at rest center and the official rest center by the evening night of the 14th of june and thereafter
00:07:32 night of the 14th of june and thereafter it was the single official rest center if we then look at the clements james center and the saint clemens church they are on the same site
00:07:43 are on the same site again addresses which perhaps we are familiar with and they were active in providing support again opening their doors
00:07:50 doors spontaneously on the morning of the 14th of june and thereafter providing support and again
00:07:56 and again that
00:07:57 that we will hear evidence from claire richards during module four saint clemens together with a number of other faith centers we see the latimer christian center
00:08:08 christian center at the top left of the page beside that we have the notting hill methodist church we have saint francis of assisi church down towards the bottom of the page
00:08:20 down towards the bottom of the page the almanar muslim cultural heritage center at the top of the page near towards labor grove all provided support and we're to focus for donations on the 14th of june and coming days
00:08:33 on the 14th of june and coming days and and
00:08:34 and and the inquiry is grateful we've we've received evidence from the vast majority of those locations and that assist us in our work so far i mentioned the garden bar i was going
00:08:46 i mentioned the garden bar i was going to refer back to that the garden bar is not a rest center as such this is an address which is mentioned and it appears in the evidence that this was a location which was initially where casualties may have been taken to a
00:08:58 casualties may have been taken to a clearing station so to speak but it is a dress which you will hear from witnesses in passing and in giving evidence about two other addresses
00:09:09 evidence about two other addresses remaining
00:09:10 remaining saint mark's close children's resource center
00:09:14 center not a
00:09:15 not a a principal address but it's referred to in an early strategic coordination meeting as a principal rest center and where other rest centers were going to be consolidated into and that's an
00:09:28 to be consolidated into and that's an area of evidence which we will have to examine why that was mentioned at an early meeting as the principal area where there's going to be consolidated at rest centers that saint mark's close
00:09:39 mark's close and finally just to the right is the salvation army and the salvation army again were involved
00:09:46 involved and they
00:09:47 and they were the location of the initial friends and family reception center before it appears any evidence that was transferred over to the west west sports centre
00:09:56 centre by the 15th of june which then became those activities were contained within the westway sports center
00:10:06 so if i could press play please
00:10:19 we're now going to see that the traffic cord which is wider than the corner we've looked at so this is not as not to be confused with the cord we were looking at initially
00:10:30 the red is references for police serial numbers and perhaps it needs to trouble us and this is a close-up of those traffic cordons
00:10:52 huh
00:11:04 we're about to see a visual aid of perhaps the same point but just really those those dots are joined and that shows the established according points as of 10 o'clock on the 14th of june
00:11:15 as of 10 o'clock on the 14th of june and perhaps an indication of the amount of displaced people that would have been at that time in the area including all the walkways and gravel tower
00:11:30 there's perhaps about a minute left of the presentation
00:11:34 perhaps not too much of material which is
00:11:37 is pertinent to our initial inquiries but what i'm going to do is just going to let it play and perhaps leave no more commentary
00:12:11 perhaps the final point to make is that obviously the cordon changed from the 14th of june and in due course it it it reduced in size the metro metropolitan police have tried
00:12:22 the metro metropolitan police have tried to assist us with the iterations in relation to that but um in terms of the first seven days the evidence is limited as to the reduction of the cordon
00:12:47 and we can we can stop that there thank you
00:12:49 you mr chairman just just to thank the metronome police and their officers for their assistance in relation to that and ms winfield who has been very helpful in accommodating our requests in relation to that yes thank you very much i think
00:13:01 to that yes thank you very much i think the next stage now is is mr willett mr millett's forgive me is going to that is called our first witness right thank you very much indeed
00:13:12 [Music]
00:13:37 [Music]
00:13:50 morning members of the panel um we thought it was better not to uh
00:13:55 uh take up your time rising
00:13:58 rising and we could just get straight on yes of course um mr chairman um our first uh oral witness for this module in phase two is mr karim musulhi
00:14:09 two is mr karim musulhi whom i would now like please to call yes thank you very much
00:14:23 good morning mr miss lee good morning i understand you're going to take the oath yes there should be a copy of the quran there in a in a folder in in a bag have you got that yeah yeah would you take it
00:14:34 you got that yeah yeah would you take it in your right hand please and then read the words on the screen thank you uh i swear by allah that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much no do sit down
00:14:45 truth thank you very much no do sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
00:14:49 thank you
00:14:52 all right yes yes thank you mr chairman and mr muthilhi thank you very much for coming today and assisting us with our investigations in this part of the inquiry we're extremely grateful to you
00:15:04 inquiry we're extremely grateful to you um by way of introduction just a few comments if i can can i ask you please first to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right behind the screen there can get down everything you
00:15:15 screen there can get down everything you say clearly and accurately also and i they've heard this mention to other witnesses previously but don't shake your head or nod your head you have to say no or yes the case
00:15:26 head you have to say no or yes the case may be okay uh if my any of my questions are unclear or you'd like me to repeat them i can do that sure not a problem at all uh we will take a break at some point during our evidence uh probably
00:15:38 point during our evidence uh probably around about an hour's time but if you need a break at any earlier time or any other time just just let us know and we could take a break thank you now you've made one uh statement to the inquiry and that is at
00:15:53 eight iws401783 it will come up on the screen in front of you um you can see from the top right hand corner that it's dated the 27th of february 2020. can i just ask you to confirm that that is the first page of
00:16:05 confirm that that is the first page of your witness statement to the inquiry in this module yes that's the first page of my statement yes now if we go to page 18 you can see that there's a signature there
00:16:32 it still hasn't come up no it hasn't sometimes it's a little slow but uh it will come in due course
00:16:43 yes there it is um you'll see there's a statement of truth
00:16:47 truth and a signature and a date below it of the 27th of february 2020. is that your signature yes that is my signature have you had the opportunity to read this statement recently yes i have and can you confirm that the contents are true
00:16:58 you confirm that the contents are true yes i can thank you now i'm going to turn to some background matters first of all um is it right that you had a very close connection to grenfell tower uh because a number of
00:17:09 grenfell tower uh because a number of the members of your family had lived there
00:17:11 there yes um
00:17:13 yes um i did have a very close connection to greenville tower my uncle my great uncle uncle muhammad along with my grandmother and her husband at the time and my mom and my auntie noah
00:17:25 time and my mom and my auntie noah all lived together um in grenfell tower for a period of time i believe flat number was 171. um and then when i was born
00:17:36 when i was born i i lived in egypt for a small period of time and then i returned and was brought up by my grandmother and grandad
00:17:44 grandad because unfortunately my parents weren't around and i spent a lot of time playing around grenfell tower around the walkways
00:17:51 walkways um
00:17:52 um just underneath the tower as well there were before they built the the academy they had football pitches there and we spent a lot of time there as well so a lot of my childhood was spent in and around grenfell tower
00:18:05 around grenfell tower now your uncle hesham uh and forgive me if i've mispronounced it is it hashem yeah it's necessary your uncle rahman moved into flat 204 i think in 2012. is that right that's correct
00:18:16 in 2012. is that right that's correct yes and you say i think in your statement of paragraph six that he was a big part of your life could you just expand on that a little yeah um sorry so like i mentioned uh i grew up
00:18:28 sorry so like i mentioned uh i grew up with without my parents unfortunately my dad wasn't around and my mom not so much so
00:18:34 so my grandparents became my parents um and we all lived together in in on the lancaster west estate and when my grandfather died when i was around 12 or 13 years old um
00:18:47 around 12 or 13 years old um uncle hisham very quickly took that that father figure role um he saw how upset i was and i i knew it had made him upset as well but he could see how much it had affected me and he quickly sort of
00:19:00 affected me and he quickly sort of put his arm around me and and and took care of me um and as i as i grew up and sort of went through my my my teenage years he was a massive part of that in terms of you know football
00:19:11 of that in terms of you know football and and telling me uh
00:19:15 uh teaching me how to read and write arabic teaching me about my religion and was just the only sort of predominant male figure in my life
00:19:26 in my life growing up and even after you had your own family is it right he had an important role to play yeah i mean i didn't i didn't see him as much as i would i've liked to i i met my
00:19:38 much as i would i've liked to i i met my wife and
00:19:39 wife and we moved in together and we started a family but we we stayed in contact he always made an effort to send presents for my kids birthdays um and speak to us on birthdays and stuff
00:19:50 and speak to us on birthdays and stuff like that and and when he moved into his flight in 2012 and my daughter had uh had just been born um you know he saw her quite a bit and uh he
00:20:02 and uh he would always like i mentioned sent her presents and i was i was around him quite a bit during that time because he just moved into his flat um
00:20:12 um but yes
00:20:14 but yes up until he passed away he was a massive part of my life i'd like to ask you next about the night of the fire and i'm going to use your your witness statement to try to keep as near as possible to the the
00:20:25 near as possible to the the chronological order of events as the night progressed uh so first i think it's right is it that you became aware first of the fire from your wife
00:20:37 from your wife yes that's correct at about 6 a.m yes
00:20:40 yes i was living in feltham at the time and i was working in a city in mayfair so i was waking up really early to to get ready for work um and i woke up at around 6 a.m
00:20:51 um and i woke up at around 6 a.m and my routine was you know wake up and get in the shower and get ready and have a coffee and my wife would wake up with me
00:20:59 me um to help me and i remember being in the in the bathroom and hearing this
00:21:05 this this scream i'd never heard my wife scream like this before
00:21:10 before and it scared me i i it felt like somebody had you know broke into the house
00:21:15 house and she quickly rushed into the bathroom and showed me i don't remember whether it was a picture or video but of grandfather completely engulfed in flames and
00:21:26 in flames and i was just shocked and quickly got out i tried to call uncle hisham the phone just kept ringing so at that time i didn't really think
00:21:38 so at that time i didn't really think that
00:21:39 that or believe at least that he was in any sort of
00:21:42 sort of serious condition or in trouble or anything like that because i heard the phone ringing i called my grandmother and she had said to me that she'd spoken
00:21:53 and she had said to me that she'd spoken to him
00:21:54 to him earlier in the night but hadn't been able to speak to him for the past few hours
00:22:02 i think i left a message for my boss to say that something had happened but i was going to be in work a little bit late so again not realizing the severity of the situation even then
00:22:13 situation even then and um
00:22:15 and um i made my way i made my way down and during my journey all i kept doing was calling kept calling him and it just kept ringing and then i was calling everyone else in my family my great uncle my my
00:22:27 my family my great uncle my my grandmother again my brother my sister um i'm just trying to see if anyone had any sort of more information about speaking to him or anything like that and um
00:22:39 and um and that's how i found out basically sorry if i've gone a bit too far no it's helpful and you arrived i think you say
00:22:46 say at about 7 20. yes um yeah around i would say yeah about quarter past 20 past seven in the morning there was a lot of traffic as you came closer into the area so it was really hard to try to
00:22:58 the area so it was really hard to try to get in and i remember i came in through sort of near where the san clemente james center is and i was able to park my car somewhere not far from there but again there were a lot of
00:23:10 but again there were a lot of you know people around there was police uh at certain um places sort of stopping random people from coming in i guess but that that didn't work very well um
00:23:23 that that didn't work very well um and
00:23:24 and yeah that's when i that's when i first got to the area i was around them and how would you describe the scene that you saw when you arrived
00:23:32 i mean it was just utter
00:23:35 utter madness and chaos and
00:23:38 and it was just so surreal
00:23:42 surreal and when i got there and i looked up at the tower
00:23:45 the tower the top floor had flames still coming out of it you know thick black smoke flames coming out of it from that part of the area where i was i couldn't see
00:23:56 the area where i was i couldn't see directly into uncle's flat until i sort of got closer towards my nan's house but you could tell that the whole top floor was completely engulfed in flames and then
00:24:06 then a couple of floors below it and i just remember thinking like oh my gosh like this is crazy but surely everyone had been rescued people had been saved you know with the amount
00:24:19 had been saved you know with the amount of
00:24:19 of firefighters that i saw and i remember i saw a group of them crying um crying and crying together and that's sort of like my initial thought was i understand this
00:24:31 my initial thought was i understand this is you know quite a crazy situation but shouldn't you guys be inside saving people um and that's what i i'd initially thought i had initially thought that people had been rescued that uncle hashem was one
00:24:43 been rescued that uncle hashem was one of the people that had been saved i i couldn't believe what i was looking up at it was
00:24:49 at it was like something from a horror film you know um or a disaster film it was just it was just crazy and the smell i can still remember the smell of this burning
00:25:01 of this burning plasticky
00:25:03 plasticky i mean i've never smelled anything like this before in my life and i can i still remember the smell to this day
00:25:11 this day and then later on you know i had some of the stuff all over me um but again sorry if i've gone too far i know and um i think at that stage you went to your
00:25:22 at that stage you went to your grandmother's house yes so my grandmother lives on uh the laura clarendon walk uh which is part of the lancaster west estate um i mean you can practically see grenfell
00:25:33 mean you can practically see grenfell from from
00:25:34 from from every part of nan's place really except if you're at the back garden and um
00:25:39 and um i went there that's where nan was my great uncle muhammad was there too and
00:25:46 and shortly afterwards my my brother my sister turned up and
00:25:52 and just in front of where my nan lives she has a front garden and also sort of like this green area um where people sort of come through to get to verity close or different parts of the estate
00:26:03 different parts of the estate and
00:26:05 and it was
00:26:06 it was almost completely full with you know unrecognizable people whether they were journalists or you know just volunteers i i don't know and we went there and
00:26:17 we went there and my grandmother's neighbor and also really close family friends um her daughter jamie and her husband mahad were also my friends and they were one of the first to escape
00:26:28 of the first to escape from the tower so i was initially speaking to them you know did you see uncle they knew uncle they knew what he looked like they knew he lived in the tower so i was asking him did you see uncle did you did you speak to him do you know what happened
00:26:39 speak to him do you know what happened to him
00:26:40 to him and they didn't and
00:26:43 and but they did say to me that some people who had made it out have ended up at the rugby portobello club so it was at that moment i quickly realized right that's where i need to go
00:26:55 realized right that's where i need to go i mean i think it's important for the inquiry to remember that during this time and with everything that was happening and going on and seeing the despair in my family
00:27:07 seeing the despair in my family you go into this as they say this fight or
00:27:10 or flight modes if i'm even saying it right and
00:27:14 and all i was thinking about was i need to find uncle hisham i need to find out what's going on with uncle hisham so i remember at that moment um once they said to me that the rugby
00:27:25 once they said to me that the rugby portobello club had opened and i know the rugby portobello club you know it's one of the the places in the community that i'd spent a lot of time as a as a as a kid you know going to discos and doing all sorts of you know silly things
00:27:38 doing all sorts of you know silly things as a kid growing up and and playing around with friends so so i knew the place very well i even knew some of the staff that worked there so
00:27:45 that's where i went and
00:27:48 and yeah
00:27:49 yeah yeah did you have any understanding at that stage about the official status of the rugby portobello location or any other rest centers or
00:28:00 or sorry what do you mean well were you just told that's a place to go you were given no further information no all i was told was some of the survivors some of the people that had escaped the fire had gone to the rugby portobello
00:28:13 fire had gone to the rugby portobello club and were in there right and then you went there i think i went there straight away directly right um roughly what time was that
00:28:24 i mean after i i got there and i'd spent a little bit of time at man's place maybe between sort of nine and ten in the morning something like that i don't remember exactly off the top of my
00:28:35 don't remember exactly off the top of my head but
00:28:37 head but around that time um and i mean even just the journey to get to the rugby portobello club was was a difficult journey it was a short walk from nan's place but i mean it was like i mentioned earlier the
00:28:48 it was like i mentioned earlier the place was just engulfed with people from all over the place and i think i say in my statement that it was like carnival when actually it wasn't like carnival it was it was
00:28:59 it wasn't like carnival it was it was more busier than carnival because usually carnival was busier towards labor grove and portobello and in these type of areas you know not so much but with this i mean it was just overwhelming with the amount of people
00:29:10 overwhelming with the amount of people you really had to sort of you know almost like push your way through to try to get to some of these places um and because i wasn't a
00:29:18 a survivor or somebody that lived in the tower it was very difficult for me to try to convince people to
00:29:24 to to let me in or find anything out from my uncle
00:29:28 my uncle naturally people were sort of trying to protect themselves because there were massive safeguarding issues i mean just
00:29:36 mean just outside of nan's house what we experienced personally you know the amount of journalists that came into the area were secretly filming people recording people i mean they were just absolute parasites just trying to
00:29:49 absolute parasites just trying to feed and attach themselves to to vulnerable people um and you know i was was told things about people turning up to hospitals and and hotels but this is
00:30:01 to hospitals and and hotels but this is later on during the week where where some of the survivors and the families were you know trying to leach on to to vulnerable people and and you know turning up with cameras and stuff like that and it was just it was
00:30:12 stuff like that and it was just it was just wrong um so so this so this this was a a a massive issue and and i feel that somebody
00:30:20 somebody in authority whether it be the council or the police or the government should have protected us there was no protection for us these people came from from anywhere i mean a lot of great people came and
00:30:32 mean a lot of great people came and helped the community organized themselves and sort of um led uh the donations and volunteers etc and and and it was fantastic but there are also a lot of people that came
00:30:44 lot of people that came from outside the community who
00:30:47 who weren't directly involved that were trying to
00:30:53 trying to leach onto vulnerable survivors and bereaved and this is a you know this is a big safeguarding issue you know the families weren't protected at the time when they were going through the worst you know
00:31:06 the worst you know you mentioned the conditions in the streets can we and your statement let's look at what you say can we go please to page six of your statement
00:31:14 statement paragraph 26 uh at the bottom of the screen and you say there the streets were full of local residents and the media and there was a lot of people outside the
00:31:25 there was a lot of people outside the rugby club it was chaos on the street there were so many people and everyone was moving around it felt as crowded and busy as the area feels during carnival my question on that is do you remember
00:31:38 my question on that is do you remember seeing anybody from authorities such as rbkc or perhaps the tmo or anybody else in a position of governmental or um other kind of
00:31:49 governmental or um other kind of authority like that signposting or providing information i i saw absolutely nobody um and it's crazy to think about it now with all of the chaos and all of the
00:32:00 with all of the chaos and all of the madness that was going on and i remember very vividly you know who i spoke to who i saw what i saw and i i every time i turned a corner i would expect to see somebody i don't
00:32:12 would expect to see somebody i don't know in a high vis and a clipboard but i never did it was either people that i had knew that lived in the area that came to help or people that had just volunteered
00:32:24 or people that had just volunteered their time and those were the only people that i was speaking to i i not at any stage during any of this that i see anybody from the council the government
00:32:37 from the council the government or anything like that just police it seemed it seemed that they were more concerned about
00:32:47 about an uprising or
00:32:50 or unrest than they were about looking after
00:32:53 after the families there was more concern about riots and stuff like that than there was about looking after us running around
00:33:04 running around with
00:33:05 with this burnt material all over our clothes not knowing anything and speaking to random strangers trying to get any any any bit of information and were you well did you get any any
00:33:17 and were you well did you get any any other information there in that busy street at the time about where you might be able to so i was able to i got to the rugby portobello club um and i spoke to
00:33:28 rugby portobello club um and i spoke to a a couple of people outside um asking them if they'd seen uncle um i believe it was turafat and her husband abraham and i also spoke to zoe and and her
00:33:41 and i also spoke to zoe and and her partner david at the time um and then i was able to convince them to let me into the rugby portobello club because like i mentioned earlier um because i i hadn't escaped the tower it
00:33:53 because i i hadn't escaped the tower it was hard to convince people to to let me into these centers to look for uncle but because i knew um a couple of people that worked there and and i was a familiar face they they trusted me to go inside
00:34:05 inside i went inside um mahad and jamie were also there and that's where i first saw ed and and willie um and and amongst other survivors i think hamid
00:34:17 amongst other survivors i think hamid was there as well a turf and abraham were there also and i could see that they were organizing themselves because they'd pretty much been left alone to do so
00:34:28 pretty much been left alone to do so so they were putting together lists of people that they knew that had made it out and was sort of hanging them on the walls
00:34:35 walls um
00:34:36 um and were just really sort of putting their arms around each other to try to help themselves you know find basics like clothes and food and a phone and you know how to get
00:34:47 food and a phone and you know how to get your driver's license sorted and stuff like that
00:34:50 like that and then it was at that moment where i realized okay you know this isn't what uncle is uh this isn't where i need to be i'm not you know obviously i spoke to a few people and i saw the
00:35:02 i spoke to a few people and i saw the lists of the names that they believed had made it out and uncle sham wasn't on any of these lists so i felt that i needed to to leave and continue my search
00:35:14 and again was anybody in in an official capacity there hi-vis clipboard no no um
00:35:21 no no um what was did you know what system they were operating to
00:35:27 to tell people apart so as to be able to let them in or not what were the criteria that they were using to allow people entry um
00:35:38 um so at first i believed that they were every person that had made it out of the tower
00:35:44 tower i don't i don't think that there was a a system where they checked whether you was a you know you you just escaped or not
00:35:51 not i think that you could quite easily tell you know some people in their pajamas and stuff like that but then once they were in they you know that they take their name down and and what flat they flat number they were from and then they they knew who was in
00:36:04 from and then they they knew who was in um
00:36:06 um and that was that was really i mean there wasn't anything complicated about it but
00:36:10 it but it was important that they kept it as sort of tight-knit as possible because of all of the chaos that was going on and like i mentioned earlier people trying to to
00:36:21 mentioned earlier people trying to to get inside and get close and whatever um but there wasn't any sort of a uh so
00:36:28 a uh so like particular operating system if you will it was quite
00:36:33 quite you know basic and did you um
00:36:38 um did you get any kind of understanding and i know it must have been that's been very difficult but any kind of understanding about what they were doing with the information what those the rugby portobello trust were doing
00:36:49 rugby portobello trust were doing with the information about who had come in into the building into there from the building um i think at that time they were just sort of keeping it to themselves when i say to themselves i
00:37:00 themselves when i say to themselves i mean like you know keeping it to the people that were running or looking after the the rugby portable club with the rest center if you will um in order just to know that who who'd
00:37:11 in order just to know that who who'd come in
00:37:12 come in who's here who's inside and it was just more for for themselves and and for the survivors really because
00:37:19 because that's how people were trying to keep track of who'd made it out and who hadn't but so far as you could see is this right they weren't then disseminating
00:37:30 right they weren't then disseminating that information to any central or official
00:37:33 official hub well there was nowhere to send it to there was no information about you know
00:37:39 you know if you gather information if you have information on on people that had made it out or people that were still missing send it to this to this email address for example there wasn't any of that
00:37:51 wasn't any of that so
00:37:52 so were you were you surprised at the time do you remember that there was nobody in rp with an official status from rbkc or central government perhaps
00:38:04 from rbkc or central government perhaps or or the tmo yeah of course i i i i like i mentioned earlier every every time i was out and about running around that every turn i would take i would be
00:38:15 that every turn i would take i would be thinking okay i'm going to see someone i'm okay i'm gonna see someone now i'm gonna see someone now and it just never happened i never saw anybody and it and it shocked me it surprised me but i
00:38:26 it shocked me it surprised me but i guess i wasn't thinking about it so much at the time um when i was running around just trying to find uncle but i started thinking about it more and more once i was becoming even more
00:38:38 more once i was becoming even more frustrated because i wasn't allowed in some of these places i wasn't able to find out who was inside and and the list of people that they had there and i just wish that there had been
00:38:49 been somebody that i could go to whether it be from rbkc or the tmo to sort of say look this is my uncle this is who he was this is where he lived they're not letting me into these places they're not letting me
00:39:01 into these places they're not letting me find out
00:39:02 find out what happened to him can you help you know where else do i need to go what else do i need to do maybe you can go inside and find out these things for me and it just never happened and as the days went on it just became
00:39:14 and as the days went on it just became more and more apparent and and more and more frustrating that the realization of you know we were completely left alone we were we were abandoned we were abandoned we're
00:39:25 abandoned we were abandoned we're abandoned in the worst way possible um while
00:39:31 while we were looking for our relatives and they could have helped you know we were in such a dark limbo for a long time you know
00:39:41 you know we'll probably talk about this later but we didn't find out that uncle was officially dead until august you know and the fire happened in in june of course
00:39:52 june of course um
00:39:53 um and even to this day i don't think anybody from the council or the tml has ever contacted my family about the death of my uncle or my uncle being missing i think the only time we
00:40:04 being missing i think the only time we we got contacted was my great uncle muhammad was asked by the tmo to be a translator for them
00:40:12 for them that was the only time that they contacted us and as we
00:40:17 and as we speak more later this morning we'll find out more about the severity of their their abandonment towards my family personally but
00:40:28 towards my family personally but we were left alone we were we were left to suffer publicly
00:40:34 uh now let's just go back to as we'll we'll take it in slow stages but let's go back to your statement at the foot of the page six paragraph 26 you can see you say that when i got to the entrance of the club i spoke to people who were
00:40:45 of the club i spoke to people who were volunteering there and i told them i was looking for uncle hesham who lived on the 23rd floor of the tower and was now missing they let me inside and then you say i
00:40:56 they let me inside and then you say i saw that the volunteers had made a written list of people who were recorded as having survived i checked the list and uncle hesham's name wasn't written down
00:41:05 down did you did you find out what the process was for collating that list who was in charge of it where they were getting the information from did you did you find that out um so why what i
00:41:18 did you find that out um so why what i knew was that there were a couple of volunteers sitting at the entrance or sitting by the entrance of the rugby portobello club and they had these big i don't know if it's a1 pieces
00:41:31 these big i don't know if it's a1 pieces of of paper that
00:41:34 that they were just writing writing on using colored highlighters and
00:41:39 and i assumed their process was they were writing down the names of the people that had had came in right so for example ed's name was was on there and and and willie's name was
00:41:50 on there and and and willie's name was on there because they were they were already inside um and i could see that uncle's name wasn't on there but i just hoped that you know they'd missed his name or thought he was somebody else or whatever
00:42:03 thought he was somebody else or whatever and i just had to just go in and see for myself but there was no again it was just simple as a piece of paper a pen we need to try to find out who had made
00:42:14 we need to try to find out who had made it out
00:42:15 it out um who was here with us and who do we still need to be looking for
00:42:20 for on that last point did you was there a system in place i mean did they say to you well
00:42:27 well he's not here your uncle's not here but what's his name what are his details what flat number yeah yeah yeah but yeah so what happened was uh i believe i
00:42:36 believe i wrote his name down uh on on the on the paper i think there was a paper of people that um
00:42:44 um was still
00:42:46 was still like
00:42:47 like was still missing i guess i mean i don't remember if it was just a list of people that were missing but i do remember putting uncle shane's name on the paper and his flat number
00:42:59 on the paper and his flat number and i think even my mobile number so that if anyone heard or said anything while i was somewhere else you know they knew how to get hold of me and how long roughly do you recall
00:43:10 and how long roughly do you recall spending at the rugby portobello rest center i mean it was no more than 15-20 minutes
00:43:18 minutes and after you left what did you do next after i left the rugby portobello club i think i
00:43:27 i think i started heading towards the clement james center if i remember correctly and and even that was really chaotic i mean i couldn't get
00:43:38 really chaotic i mean i couldn't get anywhere close to the tournament jane center
00:43:41 center but i had this sense that uncle wasn't there that that there weren't there wasn't a lot of talk about lots of loads of lots of survivors being there the same way they were at the rugby portobello club so
00:43:52 portobello club so um i very quickly realized and and had this sense that uh uncle hisham uh wasn't there and again you know from the rugby portobello club to clement danger it's not it's not a very long walk but
00:44:04 it's not it's not a very long walk but because of the chaos in the streets you almost had to sort of shove your way through through people and
00:44:11 and again i just remember you know that the cloud was still smoking the smell was very potent and nobody
00:44:23 nobody with an official status inside apart from you know volunteers people from the community trying to lead and organize and
00:44:32 and help with donations there was nobody from the council the tmo from the government directing or helping or
00:44:43 directing or helping or giving out bits of nothing now you went to some clements church and i think you say in your statement uh paragraph 29 we turn
00:44:54 we turn if we scroll down that it was you couldn't get in because it was too busy
00:44:59 busy um roughly what time was that i know it's difficult to be anything like precise but roughly what time of the morning was that i mean i would probably say it was between
00:45:11 probably say it was between 10 and 11 in the morning sorry i can't be any more exact but and when you got to the tucson clements did you
00:45:21 did you could you tell who was running things there
00:45:24 there no
00:45:25 no no
00:45:26 no i couldn't tell because again it was just loads of people around everywhere i couldn't even sort of get a glimpse inside um
00:45:35 inside um and
00:45:36 and it was it was frustrating because i really wanted to be able to to go inside and physically see for myself whether uncle hisham was there or not
00:45:48 there or not but i i i couldn't i and i and i i just had this feeling that he wasn't he wasn't here he's not here um i didn't know what was going on in sights and who was inside and who was running things
00:46:00 was inside and who was running things but again i didn't see any that there was never a feeling where you could see where somebody was not necessarily taking control but leading people even showing them where an entrance of the place could be
00:46:11 an entrance of the place could be there was there wasn't any of that
00:46:16 and and i think you then went to the westway center as you say in paragraph 30 as you can see in the middle of your screen there
00:46:25 there and you say um when you got there this is the third line you say i saw it was rammed with people it was absolute chaos with so many people trying to get inside uh
00:46:36 uh again was that was that similar to the clement
00:46:40 clement church scene that you'd seen just earlier on um
00:46:45 um yes i think it was a little bit more busier because uh the west way is a slightly bigger place the wastewater sports center is a slightly bigger place and there's um a bit of a walk um to do before you get to the
00:46:58 walk um to do before you get to the entrance of the center uh and and just that walk within itself was just flooded with people uh again nobody in a high vis or a clipboard or anything like that sort of
00:47:08 sort of pushing your away past people um and there were a team of people from the red cross there as well talking to to to people as well i remember seeing them and then the police uh were heavily
00:47:21 and then the police uh were heavily guarding the west bay center and then i thought you know i knew that there were survivors that had made it out and and been inside they wouldn't let me in
00:47:32 they wouldn't let me in they wouldn't let me find out whether uncle had made it in there or not i don't think there was uh any list or anything like that that like they did in the rugby portobello club at the westway center that they put
00:47:44 the westway center that they put together that i could check whether he'd made it in or not um so it was just no sorry you can't come in and
00:47:52 in and i gave them uncle hisham's name i said could you at least go and see if this is talking to a police officer i gave him my uncle's name and i said could you at least go and check me assuming that they had a list inside or
00:48:04 assuming that they had a list inside or something along the lines of being able to know
00:48:07 to know who from the tower they had inside um and the police officer went in very quickly came back out and said sorry uncle's not in here i i didn't feel that he even checked
00:48:18 he even checked and what was the role of the red cross at that point uh i think i mean i i don't know right i'm sorry i i i don't think i spoke to them
00:48:29 i i don't think i spoke to them i think they were just there to help uh
00:48:32 help uh to
00:48:34 to get details of people i i really don't know i i
00:48:37 know i i i didn't speak to them i don't think
00:48:41 did you did you leave your details did you like your mobile and your name at the west way at the west side yes i i did but again um uh you know i wrote my number on a piece of
00:48:52 you know i wrote my number on a piece of paper and gave it to him and i just it felt like he'd put it in his pocket or you know threw it away or whatever um i i later went back um and we can talk about this a little bit later but i i
00:49:03 about this a little bit later but i i did go back with a poster and stuff you say in the middle of that paragraph there if you were not a resident then you weren't getting inside was there
00:49:14 was there were you actually barred from entry yes yes
00:49:17 yes that was exactly what they said to me if you you weren't a resident you never made it out of of the of the tower so you can't come in it's only for people that had had made it out and i remember arguing saying okay well my uncle hadn't
00:49:30 arguing saying okay well my uncle hadn't made it out i'm looking for him we are his family we are his only family that that that will be looking for him how do i find out how do i tell how do i know
00:49:41 know and it just sort of shrugged me off and as this kept happening it just became increasingly more and more frustrating and then you just became more and more angry it's just like so
00:49:52 so who is going to help me who's going to help me find uncle hisham because i'm not being allowed into any of these places
00:49:59 places even and the same thing was happening in hospitals um but i guess we'll talk about later later as well and and it was just you know the sinking feeling that
00:50:10 feeling that we'd been we'd been abandoned but not only been abandoned but we've almost sort of been like kicked aside move along
00:50:16 along you know there's there's there's nothing here for you and that's and that's what it felt like and it was just it was just horrible um because i felt that it was up to me
00:50:28 um because i felt that it was up to me to go and find out what had happened to to uncle hisham i i couldn't go back and face my grandmother and my family because
00:50:39 and my family because i mean i'm sure you can imagine but you know my house my aunt's house was
00:50:45 it was just horrible absolutely horrible my grandmother has always been the rock of our family and seeing her like that was very difficult for me even now just talking about it is extremely difficult
00:50:57 talking about it is extremely difficult to
00:50:58 to to see her like that i mean you know to witness
00:51:01 witness the death of your son in such a way is horrible no mother should have to bury her son and
00:51:08 and i couldn't face i couldn't face that because
00:51:11 because i felt that i i needed to go and find out
00:51:15 out what happened to him i needed to go and find out where he was and was just hoping that
00:51:23 that he was unconscious somewhere and nobody knew who he was and he didn't have anything with him and and
00:51:31 and i had to i i that's why i spent so much time just running around the streets like a like a hopeless idiot because i didn't know what else to do and i couldn't face my family and i and i i had to it was up to
00:51:44 family and i and i i had to it was up to me to find out and i didn't know what to you know i couldn't go and comfort my nan and say everything was going to be okay because i didn't know i didn't know what was going on and
00:51:58 you know thinking about it now
00:52:02 five years later you know these these crooks these criminals the government the local authorities they've not learned their lessons they've
00:52:12 they've they they let people die in the most horrific and public way and don't even help their families to lay them to rest or to find them
00:52:24 or to find them or to understand anything about what happened to them they just
00:52:29 they just dug their head in the sands and tried to portray that we were some type of criminals or crooks or were going to form a mob
00:52:40 or crooks or were going to form a mob and
00:52:41 and like i mentioned earlier that that seems to be
00:52:45 to be their main sort of interest not helping us or looking after the families or the people that survived the people that were in commas and hospitals that were being uh
00:52:55 uh sort of
00:52:57 sort of preyed upon by these parasites that had nothing to do with us they
00:53:03 they were more concerned about an uprising or you know and there was and there was there was times during you know the first week that there were massive tensions in the area of course people
00:53:14 tensions in the area of course people were angry but none of us and i know this for a fact nobody from the families none of us wanted craziness around the streets we wanted the police and whoever it is to focus on
00:53:26 the police and whoever it is to focus on helping us not focus on looking after idiots trying to vandalize stuff and whatever it was that they were trying to do and i remember there was a time where these group of guys just ran
00:53:37 time where these group of guys just ran towards
00:53:38 towards where the police called him was at the bottom of the tower and i was there talking to somebody and wearing buttercloths and stuff and remember my wife took the kids and she ran inside and she was scared and my sister ran
00:53:49 and she was scared and my sister ran inside she was there at the time as well with her kids and i was like no i stood there and i i was a few other people with me and i'm pulling these guys balaclavas off and pulling their mask off it's like
00:54:01 off and pulling their mask off it's like we don't want this like we don't want you coming in here causing madness taking the police and whoever else is attention away from looking for our families
00:54:12 from looking for our families but that's how we were that's the picture that the the council and the government and the media you know painted of us that we were these these crooks these mindless
00:54:24 mindless you know fools that were going to ruin our community and riot and whatever it was and and that wasn't the case
00:54:35 and that wasn't the case and i and and and i i i there are many reasons why i believe they didn't come and help us whether they were scared or whether they did really believe within themselves that an
00:54:46 really believe within themselves that an uprising was going to happen or that we were going to write and it just tells you that you know detachment and disconnect from the actual people that that were
00:54:56 that were living in this area and and they had the duty of care to look after but sorry i've rambled on a little bit but i am
00:55:09 i did my best to try to get into these places i did my best to try to get any bit of information through anybody and and everybody and through desperation i i probably
00:55:21 through desperation i i probably you know
00:55:21 you know did things that wasn't the best but
00:55:27 but i was desperate and how did you how did you feel about having to shoulder
00:55:34 shoulder as it sounds from what you're telling us on your own the responsibility personal responsibility of looking for your uncle
00:55:44 um i i don't know i guess it's something that i'm coming to terms with now it's been so full on for the past five years since the first day
00:55:55 the first day up until today it's this has been my life and um i don't know the actual answer to that question mr millet because i'm still
00:56:06 question mr millet because i'm still coming to terms with that but i did have my my siblings with me my brother and my sister you know during the the first initial stages and sort of they helped coordinate the search so
00:56:19 they helped coordinate the search so while i was running around the streets my my younger brother was going from hospital to hospital with my great uncle to try to find out and then my sister would stay at home to comfort my land
00:56:32 would stay at home to comfort my land and stuff like that i mean i wasn't just me by myself but i mean like
00:56:39 i was you know i was the oldest of my siblings i was the the
00:56:45 the the the person that you know it was my duty um
00:56:50 and i feel like you know i didn't i didn't i didn't fulfill it because i couldn't tell them anything
00:57:01 anything and then i was i was so upset and angry because
00:57:05 because i wish that had somebody called me i wish that i was told when the fire started
00:57:14 i wish i was there but
00:57:19 but the more i think about that i probably wouldn't be here today because there would have been no force that would have stopped me from going in that tower nothing nobody would have been able to stop me and i would have i would have you know i
00:57:31 and i would have i would have you know i was quite fit and healthy then i would have put my uncle over my shoulders and ran down the stairs of him
00:57:42 let's go back to paragraph 13 of your statement um you say
00:57:49 towards the bottom of the screen you gave uncle hesham's name at the door to a police officer and i explained he was missing and i wanted to come inside the center to see if he was there
00:58:00 to see if he was there an officer left the entrance and came back and said to me he'd been inside and checked for uncle hesham and he wasn't there
00:58:06 there but i didn't get the sense that he'd actually done this the officer gave me no assurance i've turned the page there was any kind of list of residents accounted for that they were making there that there was a list of those that were
00:58:17 that there was a list of those that were missing
00:58:19 missing were you given any information at all to help you in your personal search that you had taken on your own shoulders no so
00:58:29 no so when i was told for in this example by the police officer that uncle wasn't here
00:58:35 here it was like he's not here move along not
00:58:39 not he's not here but maybe try over there or maybe try and contact this number so even from the police there wasn't any of that you know it was like they were there almost like ready for a fight
00:58:53 there almost like ready for a fight and anyone that wasn't where they were supposed to be move along you know that that was sort of their attitude and that's that's that's that's what i felt that's how i felt that i was i was being moved along all the time
00:59:06 i was being moved along all the time because i i didn't make it up out at the tower and
00:59:10 tower and at no point in time going from any of these places did anybody say to me try here try there call this number call that number you know speak to this
00:59:21 that number you know speak to this person none of that happened all of the information that i was being given um about
00:59:29 um about you know where to go or where to check uh or or
00:59:33 uh or or meetings that were happening in the first sort of week or two was through either
00:59:38 either people that i knew or through the media
00:59:45 um and then at paragraph 32 you say that you began walking around the area speaking to people asking them if they knew uncle hesham people shared information about the different centers which had opened up
00:59:58 different centers which had opened up now when you say people there do you mean members of the community or just people in the street you didn't know uh it would have been members of the of the community so people that i would have um i would have
01:00:09 people that i would have um i would have known or or recognized uh would have said to me oh karim by the way you know almanac is had also taken in people and and etc so
01:00:20 had also taken in people and and etc so it was through people that i that i knew um in the area uh that i had seen i mean obviously there were a lot of people from the community in the area helping
01:00:29 helping and a lot of them a lot of them i knew because i'd grown up in in area and and that's pretty much how we were getting information
01:00:40 getting information because again there was nobody in a clipboard or a high vis or or anything like that or you know they could have at least tried to you know give out a statement or give us give us something to work with
01:00:52 give us give us something to work with but
01:00:53 but no
01:00:54 no nothing
01:00:56 nothing and those rest centers that you'd heard about were they were they community-led did you get the sense at the time or did you get the sense that at last they were being opened up by our bkc officials or people from
01:01:08 our bkc officials or people from the tmo perhaps or or more centrally these these centers i mean the ones that i went to were all led by the community and i think you went to the methodist
01:01:19 and i think you went to the methodist church next correct yes but you say you weren't let in because it was too full yes again full of full of who full of escapees from the tower i mean when i was outstanding outside there i
01:01:30 when i was outstanding outside there i and i'm guessing this is because they the the people that had escaped from the tower they they were sort of inside or downstairs or somewhere where people outside couldn't see them all i saw was either members of the
01:01:42 all i saw was either members of the community or volunteers um that had come down to help some of them i didn't recognize and
01:01:52 and again it was you know the methodist church isn't it isn't a big place um and there was a lot of people outside anyway because that's where the police had their cordon uh cordoned off the um
01:02:04 uh cordoned off the um the entrance to the tower and the and the academy so as so so there were throughout the whole time there were always a lot of people there anyway shouting and talking and doing all sorts of stuff and
01:02:17 talking and doing all sorts of stuff and um donations and what have you uh but the methodist church wouldn't let me in because it was full again similar sort of
01:02:26 sort of um thing but they were uh i i think i did was able to speak to um uh mike um mike long uh who um i'm not sure what what his role is um
01:02:39 um i'm not sure what what his role is um but yeah i've i've i know of him and i spoke to him and i said to him i'm looking for uncle and stuff like that and uh he sort of said to me i'll try and go
01:02:50 sort of said to me i'll try and go inside and find out but he was pretty sure that he wasn't in there
01:02:54 there and then i was i was just told that i couldn't go inside and i did i mean i stopped trying to to push my way into these places i i i also appreciated that there were survivors in there and i didn't want to upset anybody
01:03:06 there and i didn't want to upset anybody and everyone was going through whatever they were going through you know i mean i can't even comprehend what they were going through and um so i i didn't want to sort of like be forceful and and cause any type of like
01:03:20 forceful and and cause any type of like um
01:03:21 um you know
01:03:23 you know fight or anything like that right um and that's how it was outside the methodist church just like it was everywhere else you know you could tell that that you know there were people
01:03:34 that that you know there were people from the community um along with survivor volunteers who had come to help that were organizing you know themselves and and what was going on with donations and helping
01:03:46 going on with donations and helping people and and and you know it's just as basic as giving someone a bottle of water in a a blanket because like i said some people you know came out in just their pajamas and um and uh and that and that's
01:03:59 and uh and that and that's all i could see in terms of help or visual assistance there wasn't anything else or anybody else
01:04:09 else and i think you next went to the almanah mosque yes um now that's quite a way as we've seen the map this morning yeah up towards labyrinth grove to the northeast um did that take long to get to did you
01:04:21 um did that take long to get to did you walk i did yeah yeah so i was walking the whole time and yeah i mean i was was a little bit more of a walk but as i as i got towards um towards labret grove and then further
01:04:32 um towards labret grove and then further up towards almanac portobello and goulburn it wasn't as busy as it was in and around grenfell lancaster road
01:04:43 in and around grenfell lancaster road the methodist church and stuff like that it wasn't as busy so um the walk didn't take that long um and i again just thinking about it now i i don't even know why i went to amino you
01:04:54 don't even know why i went to amino you know it just seemed like it would be such a long way for him to walk if he'd made it out of the tower but again just through desperation and through not knowing anything you know was willing to walk anywhere if
01:05:06 you know was willing to walk anywhere if it meant that i could find uncle sham did you find anything out when you got there no was there a system in place for disseminating any kind of information when you got there
01:05:19 i mean i remember there being a lot of people there i don't think there were any survivors there i could be wrong um but i don't remember seeing anybody there i just remember speaking to a few people outside um
01:05:31 people outside um [Music]
01:05:32 [Music] a couple of my friends and and one person i didn't know and you know they were sort of saying to me have you tried here and have you tried there and have you tried them i was like yes i've tried all these places and um
01:05:43 yes i've tried all these places and um and i think you know your best bet is kind of really being closer to to the tower and and your place than being up here i was like yeah i just i came here because i didn't know where else to go um but there wasn't
01:05:55 um but there wasn't it was all again them it was you know people who had either worked at almanar or
01:06:02 or people from the local community um who go and use the master pray on a regular basis
01:06:10 now this i think by this point you'd we've counted i think five centres that you've visited but had found no information about where uncle hashem might be this is what mid-morning
01:06:22 this is what mid-morning yeah i know this would have been about mid-morning and how are you feeling by that point um
01:06:30 um so i i just remember during the time obviously i you know was
01:06:36 working or moving on adrenaline um i was i was still i had my shirt my work shirt and my my trousers um it was really hot
01:06:48 really hot um and i remember my white just my white shirt being covered in this this mess that was coming off the tower i didn't even know what cladding was or even heard of cladding
01:06:59 even heard of cladding and um
01:07:03 we all know now what what planning is sorry i
01:07:07 sorry i forgot your question mr well no i mean it's a bother and open question but let me try a narrow one who did you think was in charge in charge of giving you information about
01:07:17 about about where your uncle might be
01:07:24 that's a good question mr miller and you know even to this day i don't know if anyone ever was i don't know i i i it was always down to us
01:07:37 i i i it was always down to us even to this day it's all it's always been down to us you know i'll i'll i'll i'll tell you something how how we were able to get
01:07:48 how we were able to get information and this was probably later on during the week um
01:07:53 um and i was bringing to my friend ahmed who i've known pretty much all my life and
01:07:59 and unfortunately he lost his mom and his sister and um i we we got we were talking on a regular basis and
01:08:08 basis and he was also talking to other bari family members through doing similar things that i was doing sort of going around speaking to people seeing them
01:08:17 them wherever and we were able to well he was able to put together a watertight group which didn't exist until probably a month later but the basis of it was
01:08:30 month later but the basis of it was there we were in communication with with a lot of bereaved families and that's how we were getting information in terms of right they've started to identify people on the top floor that
01:08:41 identify people on the top floor that means we might be next in the next few weeks we might get some information they've started to go through this process or that process and and that's how
01:08:51 how we were able to find out key bits of information about our loved ones and then the whatsapp group came and it was a very watertight group still to this day
01:09:02 to this day where we shared communicated so we were able to do this in days yet still to this day the council have not been able to give us a list of who
01:09:13 not been able to give us a list of who was in that building still to this day the landlords or the so-called landlords or the people that have been put in charge to look after our families our vulnerable families
01:09:27 our families our vulnerable families they still couldn't do that but yet we were able to do that within days because we were determined to find out what was going on what the plans were what the next moves were and that's how
01:09:40 and that's how that's how we found things out
01:09:46 in paragraph 33 there just coming back to the statement for a moment you say that you spoke to someone from the red cross i think at the uh at the almanac mosque and
01:09:57 and you gave them their details um
01:10:01 um you gave them your details did you ever hear back from them with any information about uncle hesham no no i never heard back from anybody from the red cross or
01:10:13 anybody from the red cross or like i said earlier never from anybody from rbkc or the tmo um
01:10:20 um i only got phone calls from people and this was after we we put up posters and my number was on these posters and people just you know i wouldn't call them prank calls you
01:10:31 i wouldn't call them prank calls you know maybe these people believed they saw my uncle in certain parts of london i knew that wasn't true but that's the only time i i got phone calls about uncle sham
01:10:42 i got phone calls about uncle sham and you then say at paragraph 34 just at the very foot of the screen in front of you there um that that's in the middle i went back to my nan's house so we could put together a plan of where to visit
01:10:54 put together a plan of where to visit my brother said he would go to the local hospitals and see if uncle hasham had been taken there as we had found out from other people in the area that some survivors had been taken to hospitals
01:11:06 you you put i think you then put a plan of action together but did your
01:11:11 did your did your brother get any information was he able to get in any information from the hospital visit no no so um he was being told that in the he wasn't allowed in the a e and
01:11:24 in the he wasn't allowed in the a e and they weren't giving him any information in terms of who was in the a e because there was an issue of journalists turning up to these hospitals and pretending to be family members
01:11:36 pretending to be family members so they had um basically made it really strict to
01:11:43 to give out any bit of any any bit of information as to who was there from the grenfell tower fire um and i mean i just even you know i found that quite you know it was crazy that
01:11:54 that quite you know it was crazy that because of these these so-called journalists we weren't able to identify our loved ones if they were in hospital um so because of them we we had to continue searching like mindless fools
01:12:05 continue searching like mindless fools because they wanted to get a story or leech onto vulnerable people when they're in hospital in their hospital bed in commerce
01:12:14 and from hospital to hospital that was the same story and i mean he visited pretty much every hospital
01:12:24 hospital in london
01:12:25 in london along with my great uncle and it was almost the same thing nope we can't tell you who's here no you can't go inside because of the issues are you saying for
01:12:36 because of the issues are you saying for paragraph 35 that you spoke to your aunt noha
01:12:39 noha on the phone and you say that she told me she had been in contact with someone from sky news and that they would get in contact with me to help us in the search for uncle hesham
01:12:50 hesham did your aunt call skye or did sky call her
01:12:55 um i think she reached out to them i think they during the time they had sort of maybe put out a message on one of the on them on the news or
01:13:07 on one of the on them on the news or something like that that if you're if you're looking for somebody get in touch you know we can maybe try to help that's what i think right from what i remember had happened um
01:13:19 from what i remember had happened um and and again this was just through desperation my auntie was um what was it wasn't there on the day and she lived
01:13:26 she lived quite far but obviously saw everything unfold on on tv and on social media um and and i and i i think she remember her telling me that you know she'd seen obviously on the news and and somewhere
01:13:38 obviously on the news and and somewhere on sky news it said that you know you can get in touch and we can try to help and just out of desperation and and knowing what what i was doing going around it because i was talking to her quite a lot um
01:13:49 um she'd reached out to them to try to get their help and you go on to say they called you and said they wanted to help yes and
01:13:58 yes and they said they put up posters and would cover your their search for your uncle did you accept that offer i did i did accept that offer um
01:14:10 and it probably wasn't the best thing to do uh i mean i'm not taking anything away from from the guys at sky uh you know charlotte and you know they've been
01:14:21 you know they've been they've been great but you know i just didn't know what else to do i i was so desperate i i i and from running around from all of these places that i i've known from
01:14:32 these places that i i've known from childhood and speaking to people that i've i've known since i was a kid and i'm still not not getting any closer to where i was when i first got to the area
01:14:43 where i was when i first got to the area on the 14th of june i was i was desperate i just thought that maybe by using the media someone that i haven't seen will see it and will
01:14:52 and will like will know me from the area or will get in touch because my number's there i just i i i was just doing whatever it took
01:15:00 took to try to get any ounce of information about uncle hisham because no one was telling us anything and we were left alone to find this information out
01:15:11 out so had somebody again in a high visa or clipboard said to me
01:15:16 to me maybe you know we can try to help you with this we're trying to help you that we we wouldn't have reached out to mainstream media to put up posters and look for uncle did it lead in it did it lead to
01:15:27 did it lead in it did it lead to anything your contact with sky
01:15:31 anything helpful i mean it was helpful because yeah it did it did get the message out um and and i think there were also other family members that were putting up posters
01:15:43 members that were putting up posters the same way we was um and it just it brought it to people's attention that there were obviously we knew people didn't make it out but who it was who these people were you
01:15:56 who it was who these people were you know you were able to put faces on them because the families like myself were looking around um spoken to their family members earlier in the night and and then stopped i hadn't been able to speak to
01:16:07 stopped i hadn't been able to speak to them and and they and i haven't been able to find them so but other than that i mean apart from you know phone calls and and and stuff like that people telling me that he's in primrose hill and hyde park
01:16:19 that he's in primrose hill and hyde park or whatever which obviously wasn't true um
01:16:23 um it didn't
01:16:24 it didn't it
01:16:26 it it didn't help no and as the day progressed um from the morning into the afternoon did you get any further information that you were looking for
01:16:38 on the first day um yes
01:16:42 no no during the course of that day did you see anybody at all from rbkc or the tmo or
01:16:53 the tmo or or central government i kept
01:16:56 i kept waiting
01:16:58 waiting i said this earlier every time i turned the corner i would think i'd see somebody maybe it's here maybe it's there i saw and i i covered every part of that area and i you know i
01:17:09 every part of that area and i you know i kept doing the same loop over and over again thinking maybe this time maybe this time i'll see someone who might know something maybe this time and i i never
01:17:20 and i i never saw
01:17:21 saw anybody
01:17:23 anybody from the council from the tmo um
01:17:28 um or from any sort of authority i did later see
01:17:32 later see somebody who i i've known for a very very long time who used to be my grandmother's neighbor and used to work for the tml i'm not sure when this was but i
01:17:44 i'm not sure when this was but i remember him telling me that he went into work the next day in the tml and was told to
01:17:51 to not go into the area and if he is going to go into the area to not wear his uniform and to not wear his badge and he was really angry and upset about this and i
01:18:02 really angry and upset about this and i remember him saying to his senior that i'm from this community they all know me i
01:18:09 i i'm not hiding you should be ashamed of yourselves and and i think you quit his job
01:18:16 now going back to your statement we can go to page nine please um you
01:18:22 you say
01:18:23 say in paragraph this is after paragraph 37 i was constantly walking around the area uh you say in paragraph 37 you spoke to jon snow who was covering the fire
01:18:35 jon snow who was covering the fire and
01:18:36 and saw all the cladding and burnt material on the ground near the tower and it was in my nan's garden and then at paragraph 38 you say i went back to my nan's home and watched the news because this was
01:18:47 and watched the news because this was where the information was coming from about the number of fatalities it was really frustrating that this is how i was learning about the facts rather than from a police officer or a person in authority
01:18:58 person in authority the news were reporting that there was a dedicated helpline you could call i rang this number several times but i wasn't put through to an operator i think the line was so busy with calls no just a couple of things about that
01:19:09 no just a couple of things about that paragraph
01:19:10 paragraph do you remember roughly what time it was when you went back to your nan's house um
01:19:18 um between late morning and midday i would say probably closer to midday um i think it's important for the inquiry to understand that
01:19:29 inquiry to understand that i'd never
01:19:30 i'd never and a lot of us had never heard the word cladding didn't know what it was but it was everywhere it was
01:19:39 it was flying off the building it was all over my nan's garden i remember there was this this this particular piece it was a page a burnt out page of a book
01:19:50 a burnt out page of a book in in italian i think it was and i remember thinking oh you know wonder whose book this is and um and i think my wife complained to the
01:20:01 and i think my wife complained to the police because there was a lot of it in my nan's front garden
01:20:06 garden and complained and said you know somebody should come and clean this up and i
01:20:09 and i as i mentioned earlier the smell was very potent um
01:20:15 um i i could still smell it now and i had to
01:20:19 i had to take this stuff off off my shirt and it was
01:20:22 was you know
01:20:23 you know cladding and any of these type we didn't know what what this was we didn't know you know as far as we were concerned the
01:20:30 the you know
01:20:31 you know the building was made of concrete i don't know you know we we never knew what this what this stuff was now today we all know how dangerous and flammable this
01:20:43 how dangerous and flammable this material is and we all know that it was the main cause of the spread of the fire and it was when i met jon snow when i started to realize
01:20:54 when i started to realize that
01:20:55 that there could be something a little bit more sinister here about what what had happened with
01:21:01 with the tower and the refurbishment et cetera et cetera and that was the first was the first moment i realized um that
01:21:10 um that there was something there was something very wrong about how things had had played out and it then made me start to realize well maybe this is why i'm not seeing
01:21:21 well maybe this is why i'm not seeing anybody from the council or the tmr or anything like that because
01:21:26 because they were scared
01:21:31 now the just the question about the helpline was that the first time you'd help you'd heard about the helpline um yes it was the first time i'd i'd heard about the helpline through what we saw on tv
01:21:42 helpline through what we saw on tv um we did ring the number many times and all it did was just ring and ring and ring
01:21:48 ring no
01:21:49 no was there a was there like an answering machine or no just ring it would just ring and then eventually it would just cut off
01:21:59 so you weren't able to you know to speak to anybody or there wasn't an automated voicemail or sorry an automated um person you know saying hang up and try again there wasn't a way to leave any contact
01:22:12 wasn't a way to leave any contact details or anything like that it just rang
01:22:15 rang and after a certain amount of rings it just completely cut you off and that that happened all the time and i remember it was the bbc i believe that had posted that number initially on
01:22:26 that had posted that number initially on on one of their their media sort of broadcasts um
01:22:30 um and i know whilst i was whilst i was away somebody from the family was was constantly calling that number um to try to you know because we knew it would be busy so we knew that we'd need
01:22:41 would be busy so we knew that we'd need to you know we weren't going to going to get through somebody straight away but we'd keep trying and we did and we were never able to speak to anybody
01:22:51 um mr chairman is that a convenient moment
01:22:53 moment i think it is i think it's time we had a break mr muslim um so we'll stop there we'll resume please at 20 to 12.
01:23:03 20 to 12. and as i think you know i've said this to every witness who's come please don't talk to anyone about your evidence when you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much would you like to give the usher please okay
01:23:24 thank you very much mr billet 20-12
01:42:24 would you ask mr mr heat to come back in please
01:42:33 [Music] all right mr mister here are you ready to carry on yes good thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman um you then i think tell us in your statement mr
01:42:45 think tell us in your statement mr muslih that that was the end of that day and we moved to the 15th of june the next morning um
01:42:52 um is it right that at that stage more of your family members arrived into the area to search for your uncle uh yes i believe um so my my brother and my sister came just
01:43:03 so my my brother and my sister came just after i did and then later on in the day my my mum um and
01:43:12 and other um sort of family friends that lived in the area had had come to nan's house to
01:43:17 house to to try to help and if you go please to back your statement
01:43:23 statement page 10 paragraph 42 you say
01:43:27 you say there
01:43:32 that and i want to pick this up if i can at
01:43:36 at um
01:43:37 um the second line um you'd met a friend of uncle heshams with a photograph and you say i was surprised you'd done this because but but because there was a lack of a coordinated response from the
01:43:48 coordinated response from the authorities so people in the community were taking it upon themselves to do things to help and get information about missing people um did you ask her where she'd been searching
01:43:59 searching uh
01:44:00 uh no i didn't i think her initial plan was to
01:44:05 to create these these posters uh she she she she had this a photo of him printed some posters and then to come and meet with us because i think she'd seen or heard that
01:44:17 i think she'd seen or heard that we were we were out looking for him so she so that was sort of her way of of coming to try to help with us but absolutely this is what people were doing um
01:44:26 doing um you know not not only just from the community but from all over because they could see how chaotic everything was um especially for us the families looking for
01:44:38 the families looking for our missing loved ones you know they they wanted to help and they and and they did whatever they could
01:44:44 could to help even if it meant just printing off a picture of the person who was missing
01:44:49 missing because there was nothing else what time did you arrive back at the area
01:44:55 the area on the morning of the 15th um
01:45:00 it would have been quite early because i remember i left and my wife was getting the kids ready to go to school um and then i came
01:45:12 um and then i came i don't remember if i came first or
01:45:15 or and then and then my brother bought her or whether she came with me i'm i'm not but but the to answer your question uh probably between eight and nine a.m in the morning i was there and i think your wife uh also came yes
01:45:28 and i think your wife uh also came yes after dropping the children off yes my wife came to help me um that day with putting up posters yes um from that point in the morning when
01:45:39 um from that point in the morning when it whenever it was you arrived was there any detectable improvement in the flow of information or in the organization systems that you could see
01:45:50 organization systems that you could see no it was exactly the same if not it was worse because um
01:45:56 um emotions and tensions were rising people
01:46:02 people weren't being told anything and when you're not receiving any sort of communication from leaders or whoever um you know your mind runs with all
01:46:14 um you know your mind runs with all sorts of
01:46:15 sorts of scenarios and theories of what's going on and what's happening um so it felt if it felt worse and again when i got there the the
01:46:26 and again when i got there the the amount of people um
01:46:29 um that were trying to
01:46:33 record what was going on whether they were journalists or not i don't know i mean i just remember and i think i mentioned this slightly but just outside of nan's house there's like a green area um and then a place
01:46:45 like a green area um and then a place where you could sit and people would walk through to get to different parts of the estate there were people sitting on that green area with laptops and writing stuff and walking up and down with their phones in their pockets on
01:46:57 with their phones in their pockets on their shirts and in their jeans secretly trying to record my family and and jamie's family and you know there are a few arguments
01:47:08 and you know there are a few arguments and stuff to you know to get these people to give us a little bit of privacy but it felt it felt the same if not more chaotic the next day and you go on a paragraph 42
01:47:20 and you go on a paragraph 42 two-thirds of the way through you say there was no sense of anyone being in charge or there being a central place you could go to get information about what was happening i decided that if anyone should be handing out posters out
01:47:32 anyone should be handing out posters out about hesham it should be his family so i asked her for the posters and i wrote my contact details on each of them
01:47:41 first of all were you aware of anything called a friends and family assistance center
01:47:46 center being set up to provide information to people in your position no no not at all and it wasn't like i was trying to find
01:47:57 and it wasn't like i was trying to find um
01:47:58 um you know i i was actively consistently trying to find out anything you know i i i when i say in these type of situations the smallest bit of information was
01:48:12 the smallest bit of information was you know it felt like you know the biggest sort of i wouldn't say relief but it was like a weight lifted off your shoulder calf i found something in terms okay this is a place i haven't checked
01:48:24 this is a place i haven't checked and then you have that little bit of hope
01:48:26 hope that this little bit of information is going to get you closer to finding out what happened to to uncle sham so i was actively looking for this consistently
01:48:37 consistently and
01:48:38 and i i never got it
01:48:44 you say i think you put up posters of your your uncle in the local area and
01:48:50 and skye were of help he said that at a paragraph 43. um
01:48:55 um was there a focal point for friends and family even though not an official one but you've obviously used sky and and your friends posters on your own initiative but was there a more was there a more general focal
01:49:07 more was there a more general focal point for people to feed into no
01:49:11 no i mean it was just people in the streets people outside community centers um like the rugby portobello clement james uh methodist church the west way
01:49:24 james uh methodist church the west way there
01:49:24 there i was never aware of a friends and family
01:49:29 family place or center or a point of place that you would go to find out bits of information like i said earlier everything from my personal experience that i found
01:49:40 from my personal experience that i found out was due to going out and speaking to people that's how i got every bit of information and through stuff that was sometimes um
01:49:51 sometimes um put out in the media
01:49:54 sorry sorry yeah so it was through through for anything that that that had been put out in the media um i'll say here in a statement so charlotte from from sky news she was the the
01:50:05 news she was the the the person that was um sort of coordinating and i know i said what i said about the journalists earlier but i mean i i i used
01:50:15 i used i used them to try to gain any bit of information about uncle sham and that was just through desperation and you know they i i they
01:50:26 desperation and you know they i i they didn't make me feel like they were there for a story or to you know to try to show me and my family's trauma you know for me it felt like they were there to actively just you do
01:50:38 they were there to actively just you do what you need to do to find your uncle we'll help you and we'll film it so that people can hopefully get in touch with you about about seeing anything if they've heard or seen anything
01:50:50 if they've heard or seen anything and
01:50:51 and it was literally me and my wife putting up posters on lamp posts on bits of the wall you know and people would walk past and take pictures of it and make videos of
01:51:02 take pictures of it and make videos of it and and stuff like that and um and i'd hand written my number on pretty much every single one of them um which probably wasn't the smartest thing to do to put my number out in the media
01:51:13 to do to put my number out in the media but
01:51:14 but i didn't care i i wanted i wanted i needed to find out anything about uncle hashem so we spent the majority of the day doing that
01:51:26 doing that did you have any do you have any thoughts at the time about why it was that
01:51:32 that it was sky news giving you this assistance uh and not anybody from
01:51:39 from uh or in a position of authority
01:51:44 um i mean
01:51:46 i mean at the time no i i
01:51:50 i mean of course it crossed my mind that there should be somebody here to help whoever that person was whether it was somebody from rbk ctmo police
01:52:03 somebody from rbk ctmo police government whatever i i i i knew and i thought that somebody should be here or be in contact with us or tell us where we needed to to be we needed to go but that that that never happened it
01:52:15 but that that that never happened it never came and wasn't going to wait around for it to happen either um and i mean even even even having sky news with us you know it
01:52:26 news with us you know it it helped but i felt like it
01:52:31 it it kind of made things a little bit worse at times walking around in the community obviously there were people with cameras and like i mentioned earlier you know parasites
01:52:42 i mentioned earlier you know parasites that were coming in trying to leech and pray on the vulnerable um and you know the community didn't take very well to that and some of them were being very intrusive so naturally whenever they're seeing
01:52:53 so naturally whenever they're seeing these type of cameras they
01:52:55 they felt some type of way towards them um and i think they were physical uh that there were times you know they the cameras had to be pushed away because they were really sort of being intrusive sky weren't like that but
01:53:07 sky weren't like that but just having them around you know it made people at times feel uneasy and also
01:53:16 and also it drew
01:53:17 it drew other
01:53:18 other camera crew towards them because it felt like something was happening here there's a story here let's go there and i think um skye had a range for security to walk around with us to stop this from
01:53:29 to walk around with us to stop this from happening because a couple of times we got mobbed and surrounded by by people and cameras and and stuff like that and and you know so right in your face but
01:53:38 face but i i i i i
01:53:40 i i i i i i always waited for somebody from authority to to to come and take over but in a way i i mean it never happened and and i kind of knew that it wasn't going to happen
01:53:51 of knew that it wasn't going to happen and i didn't wait for it to happen um and because of this and out of sheer desperation i i use sky news i think it's right as you say in your in
01:54:02 i think it's right as you say in your in your statement of paragraph 45 that um mahad and jamie helped you by going to different rest centers to check the list of people who were there was there by this time this is morning
01:54:13 was there by this time this is morning of the 15th of june a list at least of rest centers that you could you could check um the rest centers were pretty much the same um the main ones that had
01:54:25 same um the main ones that had sort of um taken in the vast majority of the survivors were the rugby portobello the west way clement james etc i mean i i i'm still not certain to understand how
01:54:37 i'm still not certain to understand how many
01:54:38 many people stayed at clement james but i know the vast majority were went into the rugby portobello and and and westway so nothing had changed in terms of there was this new place that you could go
01:54:49 was this new place that you could go that could have any new bits of information it was still it was still the same um and i think it's also important for the choir the inquiry to understand that
01:55:01 inquiry to understand that the building was still smoking quite heavily and
01:55:06 and there were still flames not like the first day
01:55:10 first day but still flames coming out of the top floor
01:55:13 floor and
01:55:15 and a couple of floors below it flames coming out of of the windows and i remember seeing uncle hisham's flats and there was smoking flames coming out
01:55:26 and there was smoking flames coming out of his flat and just convincing myself that he wasn't in there there's you know there's no way that i am standing here watching
01:55:38 am standing here watching my uncle smoking and burning i just wouldn't allow myself to believe that
01:55:43 that i would then just stick my head down and continue marching wherever i was marching to try to find out i was you know and i and i knew at the time
01:55:55 at the time um
01:55:57 um that was probably in denial a little bit but i i didn't want to lose hope i just kept feeling and thinking that he was unconscious somewhere maybe in someone's house and
01:56:07 house and he was asleep or nobody knew who he was you didn't have anything and that's i i i held on to that so tightly because
01:56:15 because i couldn't believe that still the second day that
01:56:17 day that the building was still burning the way it was on the top floor and i knew
01:56:23 i knew that
01:56:24 that there is no way he would have made it out by himself there were times where i was worried about uncle hisham because he spent a lot of time in his flat and
01:56:36 and i later then found out that the reasons why
01:56:39 why because he would go to leave his flat and the lifts wouldn't be working and if the lifts weren't working he just turned straight back into his flat and stayed because you know he had he had a
01:56:50 you know he had he had a problem walking and most of the time he used a walking stick he had a
01:56:55 he had a disability he had a disability car under the multiplicity scheme he had a disability parking badge from rbkc i also believe that when he first moved in he had a a disability
01:57:07 first moved in he had a a disability a
01:57:09 a shower and toilet so the counter were aware of his condition they were aware that my uncle was disabled they were aware that if anything was to happen if the lifts weren't working that
01:57:20 weren't working that he would need help to get out of the building
01:57:25 building so i i was i was worried about him at times because i knew that you know he spent a lot of time up there and i knew later that that was why so when i was looking up at the tower and it was
01:57:36 looking up at the tower and it was smoking
01:57:37 smoking and burning and it was coming out of his flat
01:57:40 flat and i was saying to myself
01:57:43 they must have rescued him he must have been rescued because that's the only way he would have been able to make it out
01:57:57 now you say in paragraph 45 that there wasn't a central list it seemed like each center was keeping its own list uh
01:58:07 uh how did you form that impression
01:58:11 so let's go to paragraph 45 on page 11 next page
01:58:19 um you say in the last sentence there there wasn't a central list it seemed like each center was keeping its own list
01:58:27 list um can you help us how you formed that impression yeah so um i knew um i mean mahad himself was putting together a list and and and i think that list had started
01:58:39 think that list had started in the first day when i was at the rugby portobello club um where where everybody was sort of trying to you know look after each other and organize themselves and that's you know kind of pretty much how grandfather united
01:58:51 pretty much how grandfather united started and um i know that mahad was putting a lot of effort into putting together a list which was on paper and then eventually he transferred it into
01:59:02 then eventually he transferred it into some type of document or spreadsheet on a computer or a laptop um and i knew that that others were trying to do the same because it seemed that it was the only way for people to know
01:59:16 only way for people to know who'd made it out who still needed to be looked for and also because of the lack of communication from authorities especially from
01:59:25 from from the police there are a lot of talks about the number of people that had died in the fire and you know hundreds of people dead and missing and stuff like that and and
01:59:36 stuff like that and and when you're not communicating with people and in these type of sort of situations you know your minds are going to run wild of all sorts of theories um so i remember uh i mean i thought it was a good idea and
01:59:48 i mean i thought it was a good idea and in every list that i saw or people trying to put together i put uncle's name on it and i put my details so that if anyone saw him i made it clear that this person didn't make it um as far as
02:00:00 this person didn't make it um as far as i know didn't make it out the tower or um if he has for somebody to contact me and um
02:00:07 and um and i mean it's quite sad really when you think about it that
02:00:15 the survivors were trying to piece together where their missing neighbors were by putting together their own lists or yet their landlord was nowhere to be seen
02:00:26 seen we should have been able to access or have this information very easily
02:00:32 so you'd think
02:00:35 sorry
02:00:38 um can we just look down at the towards the bottom of page 11 to paragraph 48 and you say in paragraph 48
02:00:49 in paragraph 48 i remember that when i walked back to the front of the tower by latimer road station
02:00:53 station i saw red london fire brigade t-shirts that had been placed there that had notes on them written from firefighters one of them stood out to me to always on the 21st floor and above we
02:01:05 to always on the 21st floor and above we are sorry
02:01:06 are sorry we couldn't get to you this was a really surreal moment where i began to realize the truth that the firefighters hadn't made it to him and that it was really bad for those on the top floors
02:01:17 on the top floors that to me was the first communication from an official about the extent of the fire and what it was like inside on the night
02:01:29 um now i'm
02:01:32 now i'm sorry to ask you this question but do you remember roughly what time that that was
02:01:43 i don't remember the exact time
02:01:47 the top of my head probably sometime in the afternoon um
02:01:54 um i'd
02:01:56 i'd actively
02:01:57 actively spoken or tried to speak to a lot of firefighters in my moving around and i think sky captured it one time um saw someone in the fire engine and i'll
02:02:09 saw someone in the fire engine and i'll just
02:02:11 just would go and approach them and say you know could you tell me anything about who you rescued did you get to the top floor
02:02:19 floor and
02:02:21 and they were obviously told to to not say anything
02:02:24 anything and i could see it in their face they wanted to but they couldn't and that was frustrating
02:02:31 but that moment
02:02:35 where i saw that when i saw the t-shirt it was um
02:02:44 sorry
02:02:52 the moment when i saw that t-shirt it was the first time i realized that uncle was probably dead and
02:03:04 and we watched him burn
02:03:10 it was just i mean i'm sure you can imagine what that was like
02:03:16 like seeing that t-shirt sort of hang hanged sideways from the railing somewhere i can't remember where the railings were whether it was the methodist church or somewhere near maxilla or the clement
02:03:27 somewhere near maxilla or the clement james
02:03:29 james and i remember there was a lot of talks about
02:03:32 about firefighters not being able to make it to the top because it was the hottest and it burnt the longest and again i i didn't know too much of the details in terms of
02:03:45 the firefighters whereabouts and what they were doing and then you know their ladders not reaching and the
02:03:52 and the the water not reaching i didn't know any of this stuff right all we was hearing was rumors that it was really bad at the top of the tower
02:04:01 tower and when i saw that t-shirt and
02:04:04 and that being the first time like i've said in my statement anybody from authority given us any sort of detail about what they had done to try to rescue some
02:04:15 what they had done to try to rescue some of the
02:04:17 of the the people
02:04:20 it was just a heart sinking sinking moment i still feel it today
02:04:28 you know not just my uncle for everybody that was on the top floors
02:04:35 you know they they were doomed
02:04:40 there was no way they were going to survive
02:04:43 survive they were left
02:04:51 you you say in paragraph 49 at the start of the paragraph um despite becoming increasingly sure that uncle hesham had not made it out i still wanted to carry on
02:05:03 still wanted to carry on and i didn't want to stop until i'd done everything i could to find answers
02:05:13 i i i held on to that as for as long as i could
02:05:17 i could even seeing that t-shirt i i couldn't go back and say to nan i'm sorry nan the firefighters never made it to the top floor your son is dead you watched him burn
02:05:27 burn with the rest of the world i i couldn't i held on
02:05:31 i held on you know maybe he got out sooner and made it down to the lower floors and someone grabbed him and took him out you know i i i i was creating these
02:05:43 you know i i i i was creating these scenarios in my head where he was still alive
02:05:45 alive because i didn't want to let go to the fact that
02:05:49 fact that uncle was gone i didn't want to go home until until nan that her son was gone i you know i saw any any in any way that i could hold on to that hope
02:06:00 that i could hold on to that hope i did and i carried on for as long as i could
02:06:05 and you went back to the rugby club you said as you go on to say where it was very stressful and chaotic um what was happening there
02:06:19 i mean similar uh
02:06:22 uh to what was sort of happening on the first day um i know that there were still some people inside i'm not sure whether they spent the night there or not most likely they did because they had nowhere else to go and
02:06:33 because they had nowhere else to go and the the council would not offer them any anywhere to stay um
02:06:39 um and i remember i i was allowed inside again
02:06:42 again saw the same people just really sort of being busy talking to each others organizing themselves putting their arms around each other
02:06:53 putting their arms around each other i think there was a couple of people really upset as well and again i just realized that obviously once i checked to see whether uncle hisham's name was been put on any
02:07:04 uncle hisham's name was been put on any of these pieces of the paper or anything like that i then realized that you know i i need to be back on on the street again um but it it there was there was it was a similar group of people same people
02:07:16 a similar group of people same people that were there you know the the residents from the tower and they were you know just trying to do whatever they could to not only help each other but like try to
02:07:28 not only help each other but like try to get back pieces of their lives whether it was you know getting your driver's license or a passport or a watch or a phone or some pair of shoes or you know wherever it
02:07:39 pair of shoes or you know wherever it was and they were just helping each other sort of organize all of this but again there was nobody in there with a clipboard or a high vis or whatever from the council or any authority
02:07:50 authority to say to them where they where they were going to sleep that night
02:07:55 night you know
02:07:56 you know where their next sort of meal was going to come from there was it was nothing like that it was just the people doing it all themselves you know
02:08:05 you know grandfather united's exist
02:08:09 exist because of their non-existence they
02:08:14 they purposely left people to
02:08:20 i don't know what the right terminology is fiend for themselves you know piece back their lives together everything had been taken away from them you know there wasn't just people that survived there were people that survived but also lost family members
02:08:34 but also lost family members now in that moment at rugby portobello club you had seen this red t-shirt with this news on it did you have thoughts at the time about how you could verify check out that
02:08:46 how you could verify check out that information that might or might not be true
02:08:49 true with somebody who might know the truth and tell you
02:08:55 um i think that's where it initially sort of came from anyway from some of the people that i spoke to that that had got out
02:09:05 out and were saying to me how bad it was inside inside the tower how thick
02:09:11 how thick the smoke was like visibility was was almost non-existent um
02:09:18 um and
02:09:19 and some of them who lived in in the lower floors like but the fourth floor where the fire had started and and and even up until i think like the eighth or ninth floor
02:09:29 floor how bad it was so i think it all started from from them anyway sort of saying to me like i don't don't think they even got to the top and that's why i when i was running around
02:09:41 when i was running around whenever i i met a firefighter i would ask him did you guys make it to the top floors not just the top the top floors and
02:09:49 and you know they were never able to answer my question so it's it's it came from from them anyway um i don't know if i'd spoken to anybody about the t-shirt that i saw um i might
02:10:02 about the t-shirt that i saw um i might have done i i don't remember if i'm being honest well i think you you say that you we were able to see the accounted for list but uncle hashem's name was not not on that list correct yes
02:10:14 on that list correct yes and then i think you left the rugby club and went back to westway um and again just trying to piece together the timings do you remember what time that was
02:10:24 again um i would have probably late morning midday and then around that time um
02:10:32 um it was just as busy going to westway um not only just outside of it but you know the main road just after maxilla nursery
02:10:46 and you know people everywhere and stuff like that
02:10:51 like that but again nobody from authority nobody sort of directing people where to go what to do um i had posters this time so i put up a lot of posters there on the on the
02:11:02 lot of posters there on the on the football cages and on the railings and on the lamp posts and i think i gave a poster to somebody from the red cross because they sort of had like a station there with like a desk and stuff um and
02:11:13 there with like a desk and stuff um and then again police wouldn't let me into the westway center um i had to get i had to have a wristband i didn't know where this wristband came from where to
02:11:24 where this wristband came from where to get the wristband from or what i had to to do in order to to qualify for this wristband and i explained this to the police officer and again he was very adamant that he wouldn't let me in he wasn't going to help me to try to see if
02:11:35 wasn't going to help me to try to see if uncle hisham was inside but he agreed to let me put up a poster on the window um which is what i did yeah this wristband um
02:11:46 yeah this wristband um did you saw people wearing them did you i i don't remember seeing anybody wearing these wristbands i was just told at the door um when i got there and i was obviously trying to explain who i was and what i
02:11:57 trying to explain who i was and what i was trying to achieve and he was like well you need a wristband and i was like where do i get these wristbands from i don't know well where did where did these guys get their wristbands from i don't know you need to get a wristband
02:12:09 need to get a wristband and what did it signify uh well it's just for me it signified that if you had this wristband you were allowed in you were considered somebody who was allowed to be
02:12:21 who was allowed to be around the people that escaped the fire that's that's what it felt like was there another rest center that you came across during the course of that day which was operating a wristband entry scheme
02:12:31 scheme no
02:12:32 no no there weren't any other centers that were operating on any type of wristband or pass scheme that you had to come in i mean they were extremely difficult to get in anyway because of everything that was going on and all the
02:12:43 everything that was going on and all the people outside and stuff like that and i think people knew that there were survivors inside and whether there were friends or volunteers from the community
02:12:54 friends or volunteers from the community or maybe even journalists i don't know hanging around these areas so i can understand why you would you know make sure that you're you're letting the right people into
02:13:05 you're letting the right people into these places but you know
02:13:09 you know you could clearly see that you know i was distressed and wasn't trying to make things up to get into these places but the west way was the only place that was operating on any type of sort of entry
02:13:20 operating on any type of sort of entry pass right if you will
02:13:24 and did they have a system in place even if they wouldn't let you in at least for allowing you to obtain information about where to go next what to do next where to find out any information if
02:13:35 where to find out any information if they weren't going to provide you with any no there was nothing of the sort it was like i mentioned earlier
02:13:43 sorry can't help you move along anybody there from the council or the tma or no i i you know i thought about this a lot because
02:13:54 because obviously a lot was going on and i was moving around a lot and i i i thought about this a lot because i don't want to say that there wasn't anybody there when there was
02:14:05 there was but i went everywhere all day
02:14:09 all day every day
02:14:10 every day and i don't even know for how long for so long
02:14:13 so long and
02:14:15 and i've run this over and over in my head and i remember everything so vividly to the point where i can still smell the snow so potently today there was nobody from any
02:14:27 from any type of authority to help
02:14:32 to help coordinate disgust there was there was none of that the only
02:14:38 the only presence of authority that i saw was the police and it didn't feel like the police were there to help us
02:14:48 and was that the similar experience that you had at the other rest centers during the course of the day pretty much yes i think the rugby portobello club was
02:15:00 i think the rugby portobello club was the only place that i was really able to get inside i was never allowed in the west way the methodist church um i don't think i ever went inside until
02:15:12 i don't think i ever went inside until sort of
02:15:13 sort of after all the chaos had calmed down and
02:15:17 and almana
02:15:19 almana it was
02:15:20 it was it was a similar experience everywhere really um
02:15:24 really um so then you know you sort of put in this place where okay i can't get into any of these places i've walked around everywhere i'm putting up pulses everywhere i've got this camera crew behind me
02:15:35 behind me broadcasting to the nation or whatever what else can i do where else can i go and
02:15:43 and that was where my my mind was at the time
02:15:48 you say in paragraph um 51. if we just scroll down to that please at page 12
02:15:54 page 12 towards the foot of the page that
02:15:58 that the centers were overwhelmed with people and donations was that causing a problem yes it was causing a problem because um because of the the amount of of
02:16:10 the amount of of things that were being donated whether they were food or clothes or whatever and there wasn't anyone helping coordinate with these donations the the arrest centers got very full
02:16:21 the the arrest centers got very full very quickly um
02:16:23 um and to the point where you know things were being piled outside and boxes and all sorts of stuff and and i feel like had there been somebody sort of coordinating
02:16:34 coordinating knowing
02:16:35 knowing right this this this bit of clothes needs to go to to to this family or these people in this rest center at least then it would have maybe freed up a lot more space um for us to be able to go in and find
02:16:47 um for us to be able to go in and find out bits of information or um to try to maybe uh help with people who were looking for their families to try to come in to you know
02:16:59 families to try to come in to you know make whether it was one by one whatever to see if their families were inside or anyone inside knew of the whereabouts of their family so it was just so chaotic and unorganized and you could
02:17:10 chaotic and unorganized and you could see volunteers and people from the community trying to orchestrate and organize um excuse me what to do with all of this stuff and where to put it but
02:17:21 stuff and where to put it but and they did an amazing job obviously but i felt that it
02:17:26 it there was so much and there was no one to
02:17:29 to from authority to to to coordinate this that it was a little bit chaotic and and it it
02:17:35 it it it probably prevented at times people from getting in and finding out key bits of information about their loved ones so now we get to the end of
02:17:46 so now we get to the end of the 15th of june the thursday and uh apart from the message written on the red lfb t-shirt that you'd seen at the foot of the tower
02:17:58 the foot of the tower this is now two almost two full days after the night in question did you have any hard facts about uncle hesham
02:18:11 hard facts about uncle hesham no
02:18:11 no the only facts that i knew was that my grandmother spoke to him
02:18:18 between 2 and 3 a.m i knew that he'd called the lfb
02:18:27 the lfb and that
02:18:29 and that they told him to stay where he was and i knew that um
02:18:39 sorry i've just lost my uh my trainer for i
02:18:42 for i i knew that um his phone
02:18:47 his phone was still ringing up into early hours of the morning i think i'm not sure if it was still ringing on the 15th but
02:18:56 but those were the only facts that i knew that there was i mean even through what was being what was coming out in the mainstream media about i mean there was nothing about the amount of people that were missing or had passed or anything like that who
02:19:08 or had passed or anything like that who had got out there was there was there was no facts that any of us knew um about what had happened on the 5th on the 14th of june on the 15th um we were still in the same sort of
02:19:21 um we were still in the same sort of position
02:19:22 position as we were the first the first day and
02:19:26 and it wasn't until i think that friday in the afternoon we got our family liaison officers and even then all they were interested in was just taking
02:19:37 taking details about uncle there was never any right this is what's happened or this is what we think has happened or this is what is going on the only facts that i knew was that nan spoke to him and his phone was still
02:19:48 spoke to him and his phone was still ringing and he called the lfb and they told him to stay that was all i knew now
02:19:53 now we'll come to the the afternoon of the 16th or friday afternoon in a moment with the
02:19:58 with the fla's visit but between the thursday afternoon the 15th and
02:20:05 and the afternoon of the 16th of friday do you remember learning any more from all the efforts that you've described in your statement no
02:20:15 no no
02:20:16 no we've learned nothing new about
02:20:20 about what had happened at grenfell we'd learned nothing new about where uncle hisham was or what happened to him on the night um
02:20:29 um absolutely nothing
02:20:33 nothing now if we go then to paragraph 56 of your statement on page 13 at the foot of page 13
02:20:39 page 13 you say
02:20:40 you say on 16th of june we were assigned family liaison officers flos called graham and tom they came to my nan's house in the afternoon and met with the family our fellows took down
02:20:51 with the family our fellows took down details from us about uncle hesham that's all they really did before they left again did how did they know where to come did they explain
02:21:02 did they explain uh
02:21:03 uh i'm just trying to remember now um i think through
02:21:10 i'm not too sure mr miller if i'm being honest uh either they uh got in contact with my great uncle muhammad or whether he got in contact with them
02:21:21 got in contact with them to report
02:21:23 to report that um
02:21:26 that um uncle hisham was missing and i think we he'd given them details of where to come um i
02:21:34 um i i i think that's how they knew where to come and i think you say that uh at paragraph 63 we don't need to go to it unless you you want to but they took statements
02:21:45 you want to but they took statements from family members about your uncle and they put together a family tree correct yes that's that's what happens um and also i think asked for details of who should be contacted if there was any
02:21:56 who should be contacted if there was any news correct yes did they give you any news any information about what the system was no no did you ask yeah of course we asked um
02:22:06 asked um what happens from now um what i mean even even then we didn't know the process um until a later meeting i believe was
02:22:17 um until a later meeting i believe was on the 19th with the police and the lfb and the ambulance and i think that was the first initial meeting we didn't know then that the process would be that
02:22:28 they would be technically missing until they were identified as being dead so and and and the flows didn't explain that to us
02:22:39 that to us um
02:22:39 um that we didn't even talk about that it was just more who uncle ishan was who we were a family tree was put together a couple of statements and and and that was it whenever we
02:22:51 and and and that was it whenever we asked we were told that they didn't know anything they weren't being told information by their seniors so they didn't they they couldn't tell us anything anyway um
02:23:01 um and that's that's pretty much the
02:23:06 how it went for a while really with the family liaison officers i mean nothing against graham and tom they were they were good people but it's just i it felt like whether they were keeping things from us on purpose or whether they just didn't know and weren't being told
02:23:18 didn't know and weren't being told i don't know but it was a constant battle
02:23:22 battle to try to get information understand what the process was i and i think i i spoke about this publicly
02:23:30 publicly during the time just saying that you know the even if they don't have anything to tell us still tell us that you're going through some type of process to be able to get us information you
02:23:41 to be able to get us information you know we'd be able to understand that but the lack of communication or all the non-existent communication just made things worse um and that was
02:23:53 um and that was increasingly frustrating because these meetings these were taking place inside my grandmother's house and obviously everything was being said to my grandmother she speaks english and understands english but it's not perfect
02:24:05 understands english but it's not perfect so yeah at times you'd have to translate stuff to her and you know and she's she's getting you know frustrated because i'm saying to her they're not they can't tell us anything they're not telling us anything well what happened
02:24:17 telling us anything well what happened where is he i don't know man well what's going on
02:24:19 going on how that when are we gonna know i don't know then because they're not telling us they're not telling us so it was just this really sort of horrible experience that we were you know going back and forth and we felt like was in the middle between the
02:24:30 like was in the middle between the police and and my grandmother and some of my family members sometime and it was just
02:24:37 just frustrating
02:24:43 and and you say in paragraph 64 that you were showing photographs by the flas of what uncle hesham's flat looked like after the fire and you describe what what those photographs showed why
02:24:54 what what those photographs showed why did they why did they show you photographs i don't think that was until a bit later right um i see
02:25:03 i see yes that that wasn't uh you know they they hadn't uh i mean i know well they hadn't got to the top floor at that time or they i don't think they've even gone into the tower at that time i
02:25:14 even gone into the tower at that time i do know that commander candy did go in um early on but i don't think it was then and i believe that the photos we were showed a number of photos first the photos of my
02:25:26 number of photos first the photos of my uncle's flat before they had searched it and then um [Music]
02:25:31 [Music] photos of of it afterwards and all the and then i there was a point where i'd actually physically gone up and and gone inside his flat myself and i wasn't able and still to this day
02:25:43 and i wasn't able and still to this day not able to bring myself to look at the pictures that the coroner has of him when he had been found in his flats
02:25:52 flats but to answer your question mr miller i don't believe it was at that time when we saw the pictures so it's a later time correct yes and what was the purpose of showing you
02:26:03 and what was the purpose of showing you the photographs then i think it was then that they were trying to explain the process of identifying um somebody because obviously we kept
02:26:14 um somebody because obviously we kept going on about them about you know what's
02:26:16 what's where is he is he dead is he not dead what's going on and they were explaining that you know there was a lot of debris and they had to go through you know inch by inch and do all of
02:26:28 you know inch by inch and do all of these different sorts of processes and and to try to give us an understanding of the severity of the job by showing us the state of his flats
02:26:39 his flats um so that we could i guess understand that this is not going to be an easy quick process did you find that explanation they gave you at that time helpful to your
02:26:51 you at that time helpful to your understanding of that particular process
02:26:57 not really because i couldn't understand it
02:27:00 it you know they weren't very clear about it was just this is the state of this flat here is a picture of it um and we have to go in and sift through all of these different types of debris before
02:27:12 these different types of debris before we even get to trying to find out where your uncle was but i couldn't i couldn't understa sort of understand how are you you know is somebody going going in
02:27:24 you know is somebody going going in there picking things up with a shovel is you using your hands you know i didn't fully understand or maybe i just wasn't in the right state of mind
02:27:33 of mind to understand what the process was
02:27:36 was but also it was during that time as well that um
02:27:40 that um you know we were hearing a lot of i wouldn't call them rumors because i had a friend somebody who i had spoken to who lived um just
02:27:52 just closer to grandpa than my name was and where his flat was in his window you could see
02:27:58 could see where everything had been sort of cornered off right underneath the tower so the guys in their suits and putting together the tents and stuff like that and he was telling me that they were going up and down the tower and having
02:28:09 going up and down the tower and having these meetings with these dogs and saying
02:28:12 saying make sure you the dogs don't uh by any human remains so i was just confused as to what the actual process was because i'm i'm hearing one thing from the police and
02:28:24 hearing one thing from the police and then i'm i'm kind of sort of hearing another thing from people that were living right where all of this was going on and it was all happening at night because i didn't want people to see during the day um
02:28:34 um so i
02:28:36 so i i don't really understand um so to answer your question no it wasn't helpful if anything it just raised more questions uh created more frustration um and
02:28:49 um and more upset you know
02:28:52 still to this day i mean i understand it a little bit more now um i mean i you know i haven't seen what they were doing but it must have been tough
02:29:03 it must have been tough difficult um a difficult job to to sit through all of the debris and try to find people out of interest i mean has anybody ever explained to you the process of
02:29:14 explained to you the process of identification that was undertaken
02:29:19 you know they might have done mr millet um and i'm probably leaning more towards uh dr fiona wilcox um because
02:29:30 um because she
02:29:32 she communicated very well to our families uh very well to my family in terms of the processes and really tried to
02:29:44 really tried to make you understand the significance of what had to happen in order to get these people's remains and i remember i remember this because i remember when we found out about uncle
02:29:56 remember when we found out about uncle hisham being identified and he was identified
02:30:02 complete right so he was was his remains were all found together and
02:30:11 and i remember us being
02:30:14 us being really happy about that almost feeling lucky
02:30:17 lucky that
02:30:19 that we were able to to get him all back i mean this wasn't until september but um
02:30:27 but um just to answer your question yes i i think i it more more from her because because of that feeling of relief of finding uncle hashem because i know that other
02:30:39 know that other others weren't as lucky yeah now moving back a little bit in your statement uh paragraph 57 um you
02:30:48 um you you say that page 14 you say um by 16th of june there was a lot of anger in the community and tension i think communications from officials to the community was really bad
02:30:59 community was really bad and this led to false information being spread and a feeling that the authorities were trying to cover something up and you go on to say the rumors got out of control and i blame this on the lack of information and communication from
02:31:10 of information and communication from those in authority and the absence of any leadership from them um that
02:31:16 um that that's right is that you stand by that yeah i mean it's it's in my statement i i i
02:31:27 i mean i still i still um
02:31:32 i still believe to this day and we've learned
02:31:35 learned or and also through what we've learned through the inquiry that there were officials
02:31:43 officials or
02:31:46 organizations if you want to call them that and i'm referring to the local authority and the government where actively trying to
02:31:57 trying to go against what was coming out was trying to make us out to be some type of you know
02:32:10 you know crazy people who are going to be writing and causing havoc on the streets and all of this type of stuff fine you know we've not we now know that they were they were
02:32:18 they were the government and the local authorities weren't actively trying to to help us they were actively trying to um
02:32:28 um suppress
02:32:29 suppress uh any sort of uprising but also to try to control the narrative that um there was something wrong with the tower or the refurbishment or these materials or whatever it may be
02:32:41 materials or whatever it may be you know better than myself mr miller you've been questioning these crooks directly yourself um so i still believe that
02:32:49 that a cover-up was taking place in terms of the amount of people that died i mean yeah i believed for a long time that there were there were a lot more people than 72 people that died um
02:33:00 than 72 people that died um but that was because you know like i say in my statement there were one there wasn't there was a lack of communication um
02:33:08 um and there was a lot of anger in the community and everyone people had people had the right to be angry um we were angry but
02:33:15 angry but i i i can say this with confidence we you know the community and especially the families didn't want any sort of crazy stuff going around in in the community
02:33:28 going around in in the community um
02:33:29 um and if the and if that was happening and and and and it kind of almost did you know we were stopping it
02:33:37 and at the time you know it's difficult to cast your mind back to those days but though in those days immediately after the fire 14th 15th 16th of of june
02:33:49 of of june what expectations did you have at that time
02:33:52 time about what was supposed to be in place by way of community public communication for
02:34:00 for people in your position looking for loved ones
02:34:04 i mean obviously i've never experienced anything like this before in my life and i i i don't know anybody that has so there wasn't a sort of guideline of expectations
02:34:17 a sort of guideline of expectations but
02:34:19 but living in london living in the royal borough of kennedy chelsea in
02:34:25 in 2017
02:34:28 you'd think or i believed that it was just a matter of time for
02:34:35 for you know these heroes to show up and tell us that everything was going to be okay and take care of everything and it never happened
02:34:46 happened i don't know what these heroes look like whether they were government police i i don't know it could have been you know but
02:34:55 but and as i won't even say as each day went on at each hour as each minute went on it was
02:35:03 it was more and more of a realization that they were never coming they were never planning to come
02:35:10 well then that takes us to those days the saturday sunday the 17th 18th of june and you say in your statement paragraph 59 that you continue doing the
02:35:22 paragraph 59 that you continue doing the same thing before and you still had no contact from rbkc or the tmo about uncle hesham the police hadn't told you about what they believed had happened to him and that's now five days since the fire
02:35:33 and that's now five days since the fire uh
02:35:34 uh at that stage i think you probably answered the question but at that stage what were your thoughts about what were your expectations about getting any of the information you were after
02:35:45 of the information you were after um
02:35:46 um i mean like i said i
02:35:49 was holding on to the hope with with everything i can that uncle hashem was still somewhere and as long as i had that hope then i had the means
02:36:00 as i had that hope then i had the means and the adrenaline and the motivation to keep running around and try to
02:36:06 try to speak to someone i mean this is how silly i was thinking that even if i saw the same person and i asked him the same question maybe today he'll remember something he didn't yesterday you know it was that type of desperation
02:36:18 it was that type of desperation um
02:36:20 um but nothing changed you then describe a meeting at paragraph 60 of your statement just at the foot of the screen there on the 19th of june
02:36:32 on the 19th of june which was the monday uh at the harrow club with police uh and you say it wasn't a community center there were about 100 people there
02:36:44 center there were about 100 people there the ambulance service was also there and i think someone from the london fire brigade was there too but you don't know who and you have a 17-minute video of that meeting um
02:36:53 um was anyone from central government or the rbkc or tmo at that meeting absolutely not no i remember quite vividly um who was there and even where they were seated
02:37:04 they were seated um
02:37:05 um and you had commander candy and then next to him i believe you had um somebody from the fire brigades and then the ambulance um guys were sitting all the way towards
02:37:17 um guys were sitting all the way towards the left and i remember um at the beginning they'd all sort of like introduce themselves and what they did and and when it came to the ambulance guys everybody sort of applauded and it
02:37:29 guys everybody sort of applauded and it was this unified sort of um feeling of um gratefulness um but everybody else it was like you know we didn't believe a word that
02:37:40 you know we didn't believe a word that was coming out of their mouths you know the five i think somebody from the fire brigade had said that um they'd make they'd got to the top floors and we believed them i now know that
02:37:51 and we believed them i now know that that was a lie he was lying to us because they never did go they never got to the top floors the firefighters and he'd stood there and it was the first meeting i'm not sure remember who it was um and the first meeting you had with us
02:38:03 um and the first meeting you had with us he lied
02:38:05 he lied um
02:38:06 um commander candy i could see was
02:38:10 was or i felt was a little bit shaken up i think he just been in the tower um
02:38:18 um i mean if you're a human being and you walk in
02:38:23 walk in you walk into the tower i mean and see what what he saw i'm sure would affect you um so i could see that in him but again as he was talking you know we were all frustrated we didn't believe
02:38:34 were all frustrated we didn't believe what they were saying we felt that they were
02:38:37 were hiding information from us or they weren't telling us things because they were worried that we were going to get upset and angry and people were there crying and it was a really hot day as well it was really hot in there
02:38:50 and i definitely remember not seeing anybody from local government central government from rbkc or the tmo it was just the police the fire brigade
02:39:03 it was just the police the fire brigade the ambulance um
02:39:07 um and
02:39:08 and some volunteers and stuff like that there were lots of police standing outside standing inside um i remember there was a moment where i got up and i was really frustrated and
02:39:20 i got up and i was really frustrated and i was talking to this police officer and just saying why are you guys not telling us the truth why you're not helping us and
02:39:26 and he just grabbed me and started crying um
02:39:30 um and i was just thrown back by this and i remember just thinking wow you know if if he's crying like
02:39:39 like how bad
02:39:41 how bad things really you know how bad are they really you know and this is this is why people kept feeling that they were they weren't being told things and that was the worst thing you can do in these type of situations to to us is is is make us
02:39:54 of situations to to us is is is make us feel like you weren't you weren't telling us anything so even if you could see that we're feeling like this try to reassure us and they didn't you know all they told us was that was when we found out that people
02:40:06 that was when we found out that people um whoever was um was missing was was going to be technically missing until they were identified that was the first that we'd had heard that or that was the process um
02:40:17 um and
02:40:18 and that he believed uh 79 people uh were missing and also he they had only identified
02:40:29 they had only identified three or five people but they had 37 bodies um i remember that quite quite vividly and it was just a very emotional meeting a very angry
02:40:40 a very emotional meeting a very angry meeting people were shouting people uh i mean unnaturally people were upset people were crying i remember my auntie noah was there with me and the guys from the ambulance had to come and help her because she got really upset
02:40:51 upset um
02:40:53 um after
02:40:54 after commander candy told her about the the process of uncle hisham being technically missing until he would be identified and yeah that's what i remember from that meeting but definitely
02:41:06 that meeting but definitely nobody
02:41:07 nobody from government or the council was any any information any support services even signposted no
02:41:18 no no there was no bits of information that they were given out there was no sort of phone line or helpline or this is where to go it was just they gathered us together they
02:41:31 gathered us together they told us what they wanted to tell us and that
02:41:35 and that uh we should all have uh
02:41:38 uh for the families who have uh relatives that are missing we should all have family liaison officers by then or soon and they would be giving us information as to um the processes and the next
02:41:49 as to um the processes and the next steps
02:41:50 steps in terms of identifying our relatives now in the end as i think you say in your
02:41:56 your statement of paragraph 65 it wasn't until august 2017 that uncle hesham's remains have been found in his flat do you remember who gave you that information
02:42:07 um it would have been the family liaison officers
02:42:10 officers either
02:42:13 and do they explain that the the lapse of time
02:42:20 sorry mr miller what do you mean well i was going to use the word delay but that might be the wrong word but the lapse of the period of time that would have taken to identify the information no so i mean
02:42:33 no so i mean we
02:42:34 we i knew
02:42:35 i knew before the family liaison officers that uncle hisham was about to be identified and this was through like i was saying earlier
02:42:42 earlier the
02:42:43 the the group that um ahmed had created um and i was
02:42:49 and i was i remember my family convinced me to go away for a period of time take my wife and the kids away to poland
02:42:57 to poland um
02:42:59 um just to get away for a little bit and i just i just i really didn't want to go i felt that i was abandoning my grandmother and i was abandoning my family but i i felt that i needed to do this for the kids because
02:43:10 needed to do this for the kids because they'd seen everything um and i was in constant communication with with ahmed and i remember ahmed had called me and said to me this was in the middle of
02:43:21 and said to me this was in the middle of july and said to me that they've started to now
02:43:24 to now identify people in the top floor i think he even knew what flat they had gone into
02:43:32 gone into and it was so we knew that we were next in the next few weeks
02:43:38 few weeks we were going to be told that uncle hashem had been identified i think by then we'd sort of
02:43:46 come to terms with starting to come to terms that he had passed and
02:43:50 and um
02:43:51 um and it was through that so one when the family liaison officers came and and spoke spoke to the family we
02:44:00 we kind of anticipated it because of the communication we had with ahmed and his communication with the other family members
02:44:07 members um
02:44:08 um they didn't explain what the delay was apart from that it was this very big job that they had to get people in from abroad
02:44:16 abroad to sieve through this stuff i think they even
02:44:20 even mentioned archaeologists and stuff like this so i had to go through all of this stuff bit by bit inch by inch and that's why it took so long and i i understood that and i think i had this argument with them one time i said well you know
02:44:32 with them one time i said well you know you guys must have known that this was the process from the beginning had you have said this to us then we could have anticipated okay we're not going to hear anything from you for the next few weeks because this is what you're doing
02:44:43 because this is what you're doing whereas you're not telling us anything and leaving us in this sort of dark limbo um
02:44:49 um you know
02:44:50 you know which naturally just makes things worse but so
02:44:54 but so i i wasn't so surprised and i i think by then i kind of knew the process
02:45:03 for identifying unquestioned remains
02:45:07 yeah now i just want to ask you one or two questions about key worker support you pick it up at paragraph 70 at the foot of page 16 of your statement
02:45:17 and you say you were allocated a key worker called jackie but don't believe this happened within the first seven days of the fire i believe that she worked for rbkc do you remember when she was
02:45:28 rbkc do you remember when she was allocated to you
02:45:31 um
02:45:35 i really don't right um it wasn't it wasn't until a lot later okay was she useful
02:45:46 not really not because
02:45:50 she just there wasn't anything that she offered we needed
02:45:55 we needed you know all we wanted was uncle hisham where is he can we have him back and
02:46:02 and we weren't interested in any other support
02:46:06 support that rbkc were offering i mean they were they were you know throwing money around like it was nothing and i remember me and my family sort of saying we don't want any of your blood money we don't want anything
02:46:19 money we don't want anything just give us back our uncle um and
02:46:23 um and so i mean maybe the help would have been it's just
02:46:29 it's just it's not what we needed at the time we were very fixated on one thing and one thing only um and you know it seemed like they'd allocated these people to try to you know
02:46:41 try to you know whether it helped you or calm you down or make you feel a little bit better about the the council i don't know um but i do know i've had many a key workers i also remember in the time in the beginning they were
02:46:53 the beginning they were they were using um foreign exchange students with no experience to be key workers some of which didn't speak very good english i was hearing from some of the families um
02:47:03 um and they were just putting people in in this place probably just to tick the box and say that we're supporting these families
02:47:12 now if you go to paragraph 71 on page 17 of your statement you uh say in january 2018 you were assigned a new key worker called wendy she wasn't as good as
02:47:24 called wendy she wasn't as good as jackie in terms of supporting you and as she tended to just point me in the direction of grenfell united gu who were helping survivors and the bereaved gu had set themselves up early on and
02:47:35 gu had set themselves up early on and i've described how i saw them forming at the rugby club on 14th of june they stepped in and helped organize the bereaved and survivors when there was no leadership and help from government to try and support one another in the
02:47:47 try and support one another in the months after the fire they continued to offer support and to make sure the bereaved and survivors knew of what support they were entitled to as some people had key workers who were not as good as others and the system rbkc had put in place clearly wasn't working
02:47:59 put in place clearly wasn't working i wasn't aware until i started becoming involved with gu of the different types of support i could receive to help me after the loss of uncle hesham and what we had been through in the aftermath now um
02:48:10 now um i'm interested in the immediate um a few days after the after the fire um
02:48:17 um and you say that you saw them forming at the rugby club on the 14th of june who was it who was who was organizing grenfell united at that stage um so i think it was mainly
02:48:29 that stage um so i think it was mainly uh
02:48:30 uh sort of ed um willie
02:48:34 um willie uh they were the ones that were sort of like uh standing at the top and and talking
02:48:39 talking to everybody but it i mean like i'm almost making it sound like it was like this big sort of it just happened organically you know they were people that knew each other
02:48:51 that knew each other and some some of which we also now have learned that they were um i wouldn't say campaigning but were
02:49:01 were discussing the issues and concerns that they had during the refurbishment so they'd so you know and obviously we know about ed and and and the blog that that he wrote with um with
02:49:13 the blog that that he wrote with um with francis
02:49:14 francis so
02:49:16 so i didn't know any of this then but when i was there you could see obviously they knew each other they they had a history together of of of being together and and and i guess um um talking about the the the council
02:49:31 um um talking about the the the council and the lack of support that they were getting or whatever whatever that was but it was just an organic thing where the these these these neighbors that had escaped this horrific disaster together
02:49:42 together were sort of like saying right this is what we need to do we need to now do this and we need to now do that and in order to get this we're going to do that and they just just you know just switched on and and
02:49:53 just you know just switched on and and and
02:49:54 and became this humanitarian group um
02:49:58 um and there wasn't so much you know a lot of bereaved there at the time because a lot of them were probably doing what i was doing running around and stuff like that but it was mainly for all of the guys that that were able
02:50:10 for all of the guys that that were able to to get out of the fire um that weren't in hospitals and and they were just
02:50:15 just organizing themselves because they knew that no one was coming you know i was still naive enough to think that this this
02:50:23 this hero was going to turn up at some stage and i think through their experiences and through knowing rbkc they knew nobody was coming to help them or save them or or to
02:50:35 or save them or or to even i mean you know
02:50:38 you know when when did they when did they have somewhere to stay for the first time you know how long did that take how long did the council take to to give these people a roof over their heads so i i i this is
02:50:49 a roof over their heads so i i i this is what i saw happening organically but i very quickly realized that this isn't my path um i need to find uncle but then i i later got involved with
02:51:01 but then i i later got involved with grenfell united in november that year i was co-opted onto the committee in november 2017.
02:51:08 we've been through a lot of evidence today
02:51:10 today together with your statement um but my last question for you before we take the standard break is
02:51:17 is in general uh mr missile how
02:51:20 how did the absence of any of any presence of authority and leadership as you saw it as you've told us
02:51:26 us in the immediate aftermath of the fire affect you and your family
02:51:34 i mean naturally it's affected us really badly mr minute like i mentioned earlier for me personally
02:51:46 for me personally grenfell has completely changed my life
02:51:51 my life my family's life and the life we had before grenfell is almost non-existent and
02:52:00 and i thought
02:52:02 i thought we lived
02:52:04 we lived in a country where
02:52:06 where the people we vote for and the people that are put in place to look after its people its most vulnerable people
02:52:17 its people its most vulnerable people would help would
02:52:21 would come swooping in and
02:52:25 and it never happened the sad part about that mr miller is that
02:52:31 that they never plan to they don't care about us
02:52:38 they care more about themselves their pockets and i won't go into detail because
02:52:45 because you questioned these crooks you sat here and spoke to these criminals who acted so fraudully and with this constant detachment i mean how many more
02:52:56 detachment i mean how many more politicians ministers and lords are going to insult our dead families before something is done about what happened to us
02:53:07 us and
02:53:08 and it's sad
02:53:10 it's sad i've almost completely lost faith in humanity
02:53:14 humanity i've almost completely lost faith in the world because
02:53:20 because it's always the same thing everywhere we suffer and they prosper and i've said this before the system isn't broken
02:53:31 isn't broken it was built this way specifically to benefit them our families died in the most public and horrific way possible and here we are five years later with no arrests no accountability
02:53:45 with no arrests no accountability but yet the ones who were put in charge or the ones who were involved have been able to prosper since the fire
02:53:55 the fire and
02:53:58 how can we allow this to happen and i feel like as time goes on the general public have forgotten about us or every time they hear about us they're fed up
02:54:09 fed up and this is the problem people need to see themselves in us people need to understand that what's happened to us and what's happening to us
02:54:18 us is also happening to them putting aside these corporates that behave the way they behave because it's in their nature it's what they do but the government
02:54:31 it's what they do but the government the government's duties to protect us to look after its people but yet only last week a lord was sitting here calling our families nameless
02:54:43 calling our families nameless getting the numbers mixed with hillsborough and couldn't even say grenfell said grembo
02:54:49 grembo and these are the people put in place mr millet to look after us the government we elect and we pay our taxes to and they can't even get our family's
02:55:01 and they can't even get our family's name right they can't even get the name of where our families remain still live to this day
02:55:11 and it's sad i've given up on the world think it's completely messed up and i almost want to just create a bubble for me and my family
02:55:22 for me and my family and live in it i i don't do what i do with grandfather united because i want to be an activist because
02:55:31 because it's a battle we're never going to win
02:55:35 the government will do whatever they can to try to keep us quiet swoop this under the carpet and continue to make money the way they have been doing for decades and
02:55:48 either we we change it or we accept it i don't know what changing it looks like all i know is my uncle's gone
02:56:00 all i know is my uncle's gone we're never going to get him back our families are broken and they will never be fixed
02:56:10 that's what i have to say thank you very much um well mr lee what i'm going to do is ask the chairman to rise for a few minutes to see if there are any questions that i've
02:56:21 questions that i've failed to ask you which i should have done or whether others outside this room or even within this room would like me to put other questions to you mr chairman
02:56:31 chairman it's four minutes to one i know that we normally break at one but i'm in your hands as to what we do well um i think it would be sensible to try and finish mr muslin's evidence before we break for lunch i think you'd prefer
02:56:42 break for lunch i think you'd prefer that wouldn't you yes please um we have to have a short break at this point so i think you know because there are other people following the proceedings who may want to suggest
02:56:53 the proceedings who may want to suggest questions that should be put to you um
02:56:56 um do you think five past one is going to give you long enough for that uh
02:57:01 uh yes
02:57:02 yes right
02:57:03 right we'll break until five past one and then when you come back we'll see if there are any more questions okay all right
02:57:10 right as i asked you before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence so i don't think you'll have much chance to do it sure all right thank you would you give us
02:57:27 uh we'll say five past one mr miller but if it turns out that you do need more time you know how to contact yes thank you mr chairman thank you very much
03:05:05 would you ask mr wesley to come back in please
03:05:11 [Music]
03:05:16 all right mr earnestly we'll see if there are any more questions for you okay all right thank you yes yes mr chairman thank you mr mr league just just one short question during the seven day seven days after the the fire at
03:05:27 day seven days after the the fire at grenfell tower did you actually get into the westway center at all not once no i was never able to get into any of the other centers really apart from the rugby portobello club
03:05:38 rugby portobello club um and that was because uh i was able to get in there on the first day and obviously some of the people had seen me so it was easy for me to get back into there but i was never able to get into the west way or any of the other other
03:05:50 the west way or any of the other other places
03:05:52 places but the west way like i said earlier was the only place that was only letting people in with the wristbands yes thank you very much well mr busan it's been very useful to hear your
03:06:03 it's been very useful to hear your evidence and we're extremely grateful to you for coming here and assisting us with our our investigation so thank you very much indeed thank you and it's right that i should add to thanks on behalf of all members of the panel it's
03:06:15 behalf of all members of the panel it's really been very interesting and very helpful to us to hear what you have to tell us because you were there and obviously we weren't and we need to know what things were going on on the ground shortly after the
03:06:26 going on on the ground shortly after the fire so thank you very much indeed and i know it's been difficult for you um to go over this ground yet again but it really has helped us a lot so thank you very much indeed thank you i'm glad
03:06:39 you very much indeed thank you i'm glad i
03:06:39 i i came certainly yes thank you very much well no you're free to go thank you very much thank you goodbye goodbye
03:06:55 good well thank you very much mr elliott yeah um thank you mr chairman uh it's just short of ten past two attempt one um
03:07:03 um uh now the next thing that's going to happen to after the break and for the rest of the day i think is that mrs islam of council will will read to you and the public
03:07:14 read to you and the public uh
03:07:15 uh extracts from a large number of written witness statements that the inquiry has received under some group headings on themes and so she'll be here in my place when we come back yes thank you very
03:07:27 when we come back yes thank you very much well i'm going to suggest we come back at the time past two very good and at that point we'll look forward to uh hearing the sizzler thank you very much thank you all very much we
03:07:38 you very much thank you all very much we break the five past two please
03:07:55 you