Testimony from Mahmoud Al-Karad and Mohammed Rasoul, survivors of Grenfell Tower, describing their experiences on the night of the fire and the response in the immediate aftermath.
00:00:20 [Music]
00:00:26 yes mr keating good afternoon sir could we call mr al carrad please
00:00:44 good afternoon mr alkara now i think you know we've arranged for mr interpreter to be here to assist you should you find that necessary yes um on the other hand if
00:00:55 necessary yes um on the other hand if you feel comfortable with questions being put to you in english and if you feel comfortable with answering in english then
00:01:04 then i'm quite happy for you to do that if you need help from the interpreter perhaps you just indicate and then we'll do things in the ordinary way in which case the interpreter will then
00:01:16 case the interpreter will then interpret the question and your answer all right yeah thank you now the first thank you now the first thing we have to do is to swear the interpreter or at least he's going to affirm i think so right
00:01:27 right would you mind please reading the words on the screen sure i do solomon sincerely and truly declare and affirm that i will well and faithfully interpret and to explanation make of all such matters and things
00:01:39 make of all such matters and things shall be required of me according to the best of my skill and understanding thank you very much the language is arabic sir my name is basil thank you very much now uh mr al qarad uh do you would you
00:01:50 now uh mr al qarad uh do you would you want the interpreter to interpret the earth for you you're i understand you're going to make the earth on the quran is that right yes no the words are on the screen would you like the interpreter to translate them
00:02:02 like the interpreter to translate them for you or can you read them without his assistant
00:02:04 assistant i thought you might be able to would you read them out then please okay i swear by allah that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth sorry have you got the quran oh sorry sorry would you shall
00:02:15 the quran oh sorry sorry would you shall i hold it yes please i swear by allah that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much thank you now mr inter please sit
00:02:26 much thank you now mr inter please sit down both of you thank you um
00:02:30 um mr interpreter i i hope we can work this all right in the way that i indicated sure i think we'll wait for um mr al-kharad to indicate whether he wants your assistance and if he does then we'll do things in
00:02:41 and if he does then we'll do things in the ordinary way
00:02:47 okay all right yeah can i just say the only thing i would like you to avoid if possible is having a private conversation otherwise none of us know what you're talking about okay all right thank you
00:02:59 talking about okay all right thank you very much thank you yes mr keith good afternoon mr alcarat good afternoon thank you so much for attending today and to give evidence and assist inquiry with its investigations just a few words
00:03:10 with its investigations just a few words by introduction you've heard everything a few moments ago regarding the interpreter which is there to assist you at any stage if you do need that assistance do let us know but i understand at this stage you're content
00:03:21 understand at this stage you're content to proceed in english is that correct that's correct um a few other things please just in relation to those um if you could keep your voice up as well as best you can so the describer who's the transcriber who sits to your right is able to hear and
00:03:34 sits to your right is able to hear and record what you say okay it also helps not to nod or shake your head as understandable as it may be but say yes or no to some of the questions okay thank you
00:03:44 thank you um
00:03:44 um if you feel you need a break at any stage do let us know and i'm sure we can accommodate that okay thank you just want to deal first of all with your statements you've made two statements to inquiry the first was dated to 26 to
00:03:56 inquiry the first was dated to 26 to june 2018 and the second was dated the 18th of february 2020. i'm just going to turn ask you to be turned to those documents for a moment if we could look
00:04:07 documents for a moment if we could look at iws50821
00:04:11 please and that's your first statement we see on the 26th of june 2018 and if you could go to page 12 please mr alkarade could you just confirm that
00:04:22 mr alkarade could you just confirm that that's your signature please yes i can confirm that's my thinking thank you and i'm going to ask you to be shown your second statement please which is iws
00:04:33 iws and that's four zeros one five four one please
00:04:37 please and we can see that your second statement is dated the 18th of february 2020 and if you could turn to page 25 please in relation to that
00:04:46 and again the same question could you confirm that's your signature please i can't confirm that and have you had the opportunity to read both of those witness statements recently uh i've read them two weeks ago okay
00:04:58 uh i've read them two weeks ago okay yeah well if need be i can refresh your memory as we go through it in relation to statements okay and the final question in relation to those statements is can you confirm that the contents of those statements are true to the best of your knowledge yes i can confirm that
00:05:10 your knowledge yes i can confirm that all right
00:05:12 all right i want to briefly deal with some important background to assist everybody who's listening to understand your connection to grenville tower okay okay at the time of the fire you were living
00:05:23 at the time of the fire you were living at flight at flats 112 in grenville tower on the 14th floor isn't that correct that's correct and you had lived there since 2016. yes that's correct
00:05:35 yes that's correct and is it right that you lived with your childhood friends from syria omar and muhammad al-hajjali that's correct so you lived together as a 3-0 in that
00:05:46 so you lived together as a 3-0 in that flat yes
00:05:48 flat yes and is it also right that you went in syria to the same primary school together
00:05:52 together so this is not uh sam primary school it's um we played we know each other from primary school and i mentioned that last
00:06:02 last few weeks
00:06:04 few weeks we went we know each other from primary school but we went um uh and what do you call it before high street uh year 10 we went together same school but i know
00:06:17 we went together same school but i know them like since primary school and like especially omaha he used to play handball with me and we went to some university as well yes yeah close connections between you
00:06:29 yes yeah close connections between you omar and mahatma yes and you mentioned that you went to the same university as omar yes
00:06:35 omar yes and that's where you completed three years of a four-year degree in nursing in syria is that correct yes and because of this deteriorating situation in syria and you had to cut short your studies
00:06:48 and you had to cut short your studies and leave syria for safety reasons is that correct yeah it was a safe city
00:06:54 city wasn't fighting there but start to have like some problems was risky for us because we were from a city where
00:07:06 we are opponent of the our president so it's like they don't like us so start to be like
00:07:14 be like a little bit from
00:07:16 from problematic yes yes sorry not at all and that's how you found yourself to come to the uk
00:07:23 the uk um you've previously given a commemoration to the inquiry in relation to muhammad and you've described the impact of the loss of hit of his life in the fire and how he was like a brother to you isn't
00:07:34 how he was like a brother to you isn't that correct yes that's correct and we'll remember that the moving things you said on his behalf at those commemorations yeah i want to turn now please to the 14th of june okay
00:07:45 june okay and briefly i'm just going to set the scene and then ask you some questions really from a little bit later down to chronology but is it right that about 10 past one on the morning or the
00:07:57 about 10 past one on the morning or the 14th of june you had been working in edgewood road and i just finished work yes
00:08:01 yes i wasn't i didn't finish work but i was going to finish so it was like about 10 past something yes and it's at that time is when you learned of the of the fire which is
00:08:14 learned of the of the fire which is taking away
00:08:16 and when you receive that information you rushed back towards the tower isn't that correct that's correct and you mentioned your statement how you were on the phone speaking to muhammad at the time as you're traveling back yes
00:08:28 at the time as you're traveling back yes that's correct and mohammed of course was and omar at this stage were inside um the tower in your home as they were inside
00:08:38 inside and you arrive back at about quarter to two that morning yeah i went back uh quarter um i went back i was five to two when i took the
00:08:49 back i was five to two when i took the first picture i i can't remember that yes and was like packed of people outside and yeah they were there were a lot of people there
00:09:01 there were a lot of people there a lot of people outside you've mentioned in your
00:09:04 in your first statement the series of calls you made with with muhammad and and
00:09:11 and and perhaps i could deal with this way the last time you spoke to muhammad who was inside a tower was about um 319 is what you said in your statement uh sorry what's happening it was absent
00:09:22 uh sorry what's happening it was absent 20 minutes past 3 o'clock in the morning was the last time you spoke to mohammed i think so yes and you set those calls out in some detail in your statements and again you
00:09:33 detail in your statements and again you spoke in moving terms about your last call to muhammad which we've which we've heard already about yes
00:09:41 yes and after 10 minutes after that last call you had with muhammad and you learned when you were outside the tower that omar was also outside is that rise that's correct
00:09:54 that rise that's correct so just i've got question uh so is it brief what happened or shall we um is it yes
00:10:02 yes is
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00:10:14 is this an open question you would like me to elaborate on or you just want me to say yes or no i i was dealing with in a short way but is there anything else you wanted to add in relation to that part of the evidence mr alkara
00:10:29 okay um
00:10:32 um okay just uh i would like to take you back if that's possible of course you know
00:10:38 know so was you know in the morning i wake up to go to work i i used to work long shifts and i used to you know
00:10:49 i used to you know we have two single bits in the same room where muhammad was and we said goodbye to each other and i went to my job
00:10:58 to my job and um you know when i learned there's a fire in the shop so before that i i wanted to leave home uh at eight o'clock evening because i was tired and
00:11:13 o'clock evening because i was tired and almost my chef should supposed to finish but
00:11:17 but my friend he told me you need to support me and you need to you know give me a hand at work so i stayed longer and then we learned there's a fire in
00:11:28 and then we learned there's a fire in grenfell tower and was um you know we rushed like directly to go
00:11:34 go and um
00:11:36 and um you know was like it was like um you know nightmare to go and to see um you know the fire from a40 to see you know it's it's picking up the fire very
00:11:49 it's it's picking up the fire very quickly
00:11:51 quickly so um
00:11:53 so um so i went there and i spoke to him about uh you know he he he were asking me about uh getting help and he was like very scared and shouting and begging me
00:12:05 very scared and shouting and begging me to
00:12:07 to to get help um
00:12:11 um so um
00:12:12 so um i get the and um
00:12:17 um so i get that at uh about a quarter to two and it was like packed of people and they were like all of them shouting and we were trying to go inside the building
00:12:28 we were trying to go inside the building to help
00:12:30 to help my friend
00:12:31 my friend and the the police didn't allow us to go inside because you know was not safe to do so yes um yeah just you know i wanted to let you
00:12:43 yeah just you know i wanted to let you know that um you know it was like tough night because i wasn't sleeping for long and um you know the night of the fire started after 12 o'clock
00:12:54 started after 12 o'clock so i had to stay long all the day yeah we said stay long today all day we need to bear that in mind because you obviously hadn't probably eaten you hadn't sleep slept and then throughout
00:13:06 hadn't sleep slept and then throughout the 14th of june which we'll move on to yeah i was fasting in that day and was ramadan it was like already ramadan and you know like after you fast like few
00:13:17 you know like after you fast like few days
00:13:18 days your body start to be like um you know you feel tired and i do long shifts so it was like um you know it was nightmare like to stand
00:13:29 like to stand the whole night until the morning yes
00:13:33 yes and in relation to that i was just on the point where you would realize that omar had been had come out of the tower yes and muhammad had not and you've mentioned that in your
00:13:44 and you've mentioned that in your statements and you remained at the scene outside the tower until about nine o'clock that morning hoping for more news in relation to muhammad is that correct that's correct we i i was running from side to side of
00:13:57 we i i was running from side to side of the tower to to see if there is you know any news or anything about you know if they if they are out or not so i went to the other side when i heard from my friend
00:14:09 other side when i heard from my friend uh he said like omar he's out he was like
00:14:12 like you know
00:14:13 you know his face was full of smoke and he was crying and you know was asking about muhammad and where he is and i asked him where
00:14:26 and i asked him where muhammad do you did you see him because i i had a call with muhammad and he said to me i couldn't see omar at all yes and he i just told him just try to shout maybe
00:14:39 i just told him just try to shout maybe he's he's like somewhere and it's dark inside
00:14:43 inside so um
00:14:45 so um after that he went uh he started to call them called muhammad and he was shouting like
00:14:52 like you can leave you can try to leave the building it's like it's not that difficult it's hard little bit about you can't make it he was like shouting all the time he was like
00:15:03 the time he was like you know very angry he wanted him to leave like directly
00:15:11 and we know that omar after you saw him was taken to king's college hospital isn't that correct yes that's correct and whilst you're waiting outside the tower for information in relation to muhammad was there any
00:15:23 relation to muhammad was there any assistance being provided any information being provided by anybody in authority to you to be honest no because you know the the thing is
00:15:33 thing is we used to speak with the bullies and you know i when i was calling muhammad so he was telling me we are in that flat
00:15:44 so he was telling me we are in that flat or what what they were doing and you know the only thing i asked the police about you know they were hosting a flat 113.
00:15:55 a flat 113. so i was
00:15:56 so i was telling man telling them like to keep hosting water because he was there and that's it but no assistance no nothing just they were like uh you know police
00:16:09 just they were like uh you know police police keeping pushing people to go further and further back
00:16:15 so after those hours you spent outside the tower and communicating initially with muhammad and then not having communication muhammad did it come to a
00:16:26 communication muhammad did it come to a stage that you decided to search the local hospitals for muhammad that's correct
00:16:31 correct and
00:16:32 and we know that you visited five holiday hospitals looking for muhammad including the westminster and chelsea hospital the hammersmith hospital and another and sharing cross but unfortunately doesn't appear to that
00:16:43 but unfortunately doesn't appear to that he was admitted as a patient is that correct so
00:16:48 so after we
00:16:49 after we you know i'm i finished speaking with muhammad last call so it was like five o'clock in the morning and the sunrise started and i was like uh asking around so i asked
00:17:03 i was like uh asking around so i asked the influence uh you know uh like uh um important stuff so about where where do you keep uh people like they are injured or they are out of the
00:17:15 they are injured or they are out of the tower so they they were telling me about five uh hospitals they you could go and see uh if their names there or
00:17:25 there or sure so
00:17:26 sure so uh we kept we stayed there until nine o'clock in the morning so we decided to go
00:17:33 go so i decided to go with his cousin asam and his fiance aman to see
00:17:41 to see those hospitals the the five names of the hospitals so we went around and they were not helping with any information they said we don't know that
00:17:52 know that that name
00:17:54 that name okay
00:17:56 okay and how did you feel going from those hospitals from one to the other not getting any any information regarding muhammad it was disappointing uh disappointing um you know like i was
00:18:07 disappointing um you know like i was like very disappointed because you know i don't have to go like leave the building and i don't know muhammad what happened what's going on with him and
00:18:18 happened what's going on with him and i had to go between hospitals and it's um
00:18:23 it's um you know we could have like a number to call not to go around and i haven't slept
00:18:30 slept that time like for 40 hours and i was going there and after we finished searching for muhammad i remember asking he was like driving and at traffic light he just slept and
00:18:43 and at traffic light he just slept and he couldn't you know stay awake so we
00:18:48 so we i told him just you know take a quick nap and we need to leave and it's not safe like to to drive like that and he just slept there for five ten minutes and
00:18:58 and i tried to wake him up like quickly and i almost slept you know i don't know if i slept or not i was like unconscious because i was almost you know collapsing
00:19:09 because i was almost you know collapsing because not sleeping not eating so a traumatic event you're exhausted you're trying to get information from the hospitals and it's is it right then that you went to
00:19:21 that you went to the rugby portobello club on the morning at the 14th of june that's correct and why did you go there i heard some people they said they were saying they have names or list of names
00:19:33 saying they have names or list of names for people who left the building so i went there and i can remember i went somewhere else i cannot remember the name of the
00:19:44 name of the center was around latimer road somewhere around there i'm not sure what's called i forgot well let me deal with um the rugby portobello club first
00:19:55 with um the rugby portobello club first of all when you said you heard information was that from an official individual or was it from just somebody in the street who's trying to assist just i where i was asking people about
00:20:07 just i where i was asking people about you know
00:20:08 you know survivors and you know they were saying you have to go to portugal to check their names okay
00:20:17 when you were at the rugby portobello club do you recall seeing anybody from the the local council or the tmo there i haven't seen anyone just they were i believe they were working there as
00:20:29 believe they were working there as volunteers
00:20:33 and did you find the the rugby port bella club helpful when you attend it so on the first day no um first week but after that they they provide some help and um but you know it's just i checked
00:20:46 and um but you know it's just i checked their
00:20:47 their if muhammad's name was on the list or not
00:20:51 not that's all what i when i get from there and what was the information you received when you were just they i i believe they had like a list
00:21:02 like a list and if they know any information and they couldn't provide anything about muhammad in that time were you aware of any other sources of information a central sort of information such as a friends and family
00:21:15 information such as a friends and family assistance center uh i would like to yes do you please would you like me to say it again so i'm sorry i suggest council repeats the question and then you can try okay sir i got it but yes by all means i was
00:21:27 sir i got it but yes by all means i was gonna say were you aware of any other form of sort of information essential source of information such as a friends and family assistance center
00:21:52 did you know where to go it's maybe obvious did you know where to go to look for information to be honest no but uh i was i was going with awesome as i told you so he slept let me continue
00:22:05 i told you so he slept let me continue with that
00:22:06 with that if i may
00:22:07 if i may so uh we went after he wake up from you know
00:22:13 know where we parked yes and we went back to his flat so it was about evening about seven o'clock or six o'clock evening so i cannot remember i was like
00:22:25 so i cannot remember i was like almost two days without sleeping so i felt asleep and i remember like i was you know sleeping not sleeping i'm not sure i was like dreaming
00:22:38 sure i was like dreaming i was like i had the nightmares so i heard something about you know they found muhammad and just i heard like they are talking about
00:22:49 just i heard like they are talking about he's on facebook he's got pictures so i just woke up and i was shocked about
00:22:56 about you know when when i saw his pictures they
00:22:58 they there was a guy and he's wearing not appropriate clothing and he was like playing around his body and i was really shocked i was really
00:23:09 i was really shocked i was really shocked like where's everyone like uh where where they keep him so i know there is a building next to us and so i told my friends
00:23:20 so i told my friends they keep him that building shall we go and find out what's what's gonna you know what's gonna happen or why they keep him like that yes so we went back to the building around the building
00:23:33 to the building around the building to just deposit for a moment so what you're describing to us is the circumstances in which you found out that muhammad had had died in the fire yes and you when you were woken up
00:23:44 yes and you when you were woken up and
00:23:45 and omar and those who else who were with you had found out on social media because there was a picture posted on facebook yeah it was shocking yes to see that honestly
00:23:56 that honestly and you recognized the building where yeah
00:24:01 yeah before the fire i i know a friend he used to live there for a short of time when i moved to london so i went once with him
00:24:12 i went once with him so
00:24:13 so i saw the building how they designed the floor
00:24:17 floor so they have different colors so i know it's it's in that building
00:24:24 and at paragraph 53 of your second statement you say this i had no communication from all bkc the tmo or any official body to inform me whether muhammad died or to help me find the
00:24:35 muhammad died or to help me find the body is that is that correct no there was no information about it i'm going to move on if you're content i'm going to move on to the 15th of june is that okay that's okay
00:24:49 so we know that on that night you were at um muhammad and omar's cousin's flat yes and the following day on the 15th of june you went to visit
00:25:00 on the 15th of june you went to visit omar who of course was still at king's college hospital is that right that's correct
00:25:06 correct and the position is is this correct that two police officers who were there with omar at the hospital who was then discharged from the hospital then drove both of you to the westway sports center
00:25:17 both of you to the westway sports center so uh after i slept like few few hours a few may let me continue that of course a missing period so i went back to the
00:25:28 missing period so i went back to the um
00:25:29 um to next to the tower so i went to that building to see muhammad's maybe like ask about muhammad and there were there was a police officer he
00:25:41 there were there was a police officer he told me like you are not allowed to go in because it's
00:25:46 it's unsafe or it's not authorized to go and i said to him i explained to him like i saw my friend what do you mean it's not authorized just tell me he's my friend you have to give me information about
00:25:59 you have to give me information about if he's here where is he where are you taking him was like was no information at all like they were keeping secret everything and like uh you know
00:26:11 uh you know it's like he you know he said i cannot provide any information we went out and we were speaking with other people
00:26:18 people some people they were crying some people they were you know shouting you know swearing and
00:26:25 and like why why we don't get any any information from anywhere there was nobody there like to explain what's going on it was like completely you know chaos it's like
00:26:37 chaos it's like you don't know what's going on so it was like so after after that i went back to omar uh to assam's flat and
00:26:48 uh to assam's flat and i wake up in the morning i think and i received a call from police officers and i cannot remember if i spoke to oma in the morning or not but they said to me you have to come to that
00:27:01 me you have to come to that hospital yes so i went to the hospital and
00:27:05 and i met omar he was in bad situation he was crying he hugged me and i didn't know what to say i was like really i didn't know what to say it was very hard
00:27:17 very hard it's like
00:27:18 it's like you know i never been in this situation before it's like somebody his brother and our you know it's like my brother and he died what to say it's it hurts me
00:27:30 it hurts me uh mo you know like it hurts me more because you know i don't know to what to say to my friend and that's his brother and
00:27:39 and it's like suddenly he he passed away it was really hard you know and then after that they took us to buy their car and they
00:27:49 they give us a left to westway center and they said
00:27:55 they said they took us to two tables they were in front and they said they can provide your help the police officers took you to the two tables yeah i i i can't remember that
00:28:07 tables yeah i i i can't remember that yeah they they left us there and they said they can help you so they can you know support you after that sure okay pausing there for a moment and really continuing from what what you
00:28:18 and really continuing from what what you were just saying you've mentioned in your statement that you were pretty much you had nothing else you had nothing except what you were wearing yeah that morning when you went to the west way is that nice yes
00:28:31 to the west way is that nice yes and you
00:28:32 and you mentioned
00:28:34 mentioned two people at a table was this inside the west way or outside the west west it was outside the west way and did you speak to those people yes and and what happened when you spoke to them so
00:28:46 what happened when you spoke to them so firstly i spoke to them about uh they said i believe they said they are rbkc or
00:28:53 or red cross i cannot remember hundred percent but i think they were from rbkc for sure and i asked them where to go
00:29:04 and i asked them where to go where where supposed to go and they said you can go to see check the you know westway center from inside if you need anything or
00:29:16 after that i said to them okay where shall i sleep shall i stay in the street or where shall i sleep so they said um we'll we'll give you a call i will give me your information
00:29:28 call i will give me your information we'll give you a call so we provide you a hotel i said okay that's fine so i went inside to check the westway center after that yes and perhaps you could
00:29:40 after that yes and perhaps you could help us by just describing the the westway sports center when you went inside on the 15th of june so uh sportway center was you know was big big place was like mattresses on
00:29:53 was big big place was like mattresses on the tennis court
00:29:56 court and
00:29:57 and i saw one person who was sleeping there and
00:30:02 and a lot of mattresses uh sheets and stuff like that and there was like one corner there's a lot of clothes yes
00:30:11 yes and to be honest i had no clothes no nothing to do you know with me so i said okay i was like uh you know 40 hours or more or i cannot remember i cannot count
00:30:23 more or i cannot remember i cannot count them
00:30:24 them without changing my clothes i need to change my clothes so i was digging between you know to find something i was like not not that great to to do that so i just left
00:30:36 that great to to do that so i just left them
00:30:37 them and was food like on the side and was like
00:30:42 like i don't know i call it kyo's place because you know i didn't feel well even omaha didn't feel well he said to me we need to go out said omar let's go out it's not
00:30:54 go out it's not it's not nice to stay here because honesty was not nothing was like as good as i know it's like people giving donations but wasn't organized nobody can help you to
00:31:07 organized nobody can help you to to deal with the you know like what what you need
00:31:11 you need and i suppose you know like when i saw the mattresses i thought we are going to end up like sleeping there or something of course you said it wasn't organized and people weren't there to help you was
00:31:22 people weren't there to help you was there was there any support available when you were in the west way on the 15th
00:31:27 15th i cannot remember this there was any support there but i saw that outside i asked them about the hotel
00:31:37 the hotel and we waited there a few hours to get to get a call from a lady she said to us to go to the hotel in earl's court
00:31:48 to go to the hotel in earl's court and i asked about if i could bring my family here to you know i think maybe home office or red cross i'm not sure so they said it's uh just you know
00:32:00 so they said it's uh just you know because you haven't lost anyone um you cannot bring your family i said i lost my you know my close friend he's like my brother what do you mean i haven't lost anyone yes you mentioned
00:32:12 haven't lost anyone yes you mentioned that your
00:32:13 that your it was a red cross you spoke to but your family
00:32:16 family were in holland and you were hoping to get some support for them to come over because the bereavements because i lost all my documentations from the uk from uh syria so i don't
00:32:29 from the uk from uh syria so i don't have anything to prove that i'm syrian or
00:32:33 or i have like residency here i was like i was worried about that as well well it's if it wasn't obvious already your your evidence is that you lost everything yeah i lost all my
00:32:45 everything yeah i lost all my documentation everything
00:32:48 um you mentioned you received a call back from or bkc in relation to the accommodation which was booked for you about two hours later you received a call back and that was the holiday inn
00:33:00 call back and that was the holiday inn express at earl's court yes in relation to that were you given any information as to how long and that room was going to be booked for you in that hotel no they said
00:33:12 they said you have to go there and stay there that's it but you know they even didn't provide any transportation to there so they said make your way there and
00:33:23 so they said make your way there and go to the hotel and how did you get to the hotel uh we are lucky you know we are lucky lucky
00:33:32 lucky there was
00:33:34 there was a lady from syria i think she gave us a ride me and omar so she was like going around offering some help
00:33:42 some help she had the car she dropped us there and we
00:33:47 we went there okay
00:33:50 okay so in moving on to when you arrived at a hotel was there anybody there to meet you or support you when you arrived no nobody though and in terms of your room how would you describe your room
00:34:01 room how would you describe your room when you were at that hotel so the room was really small was like two single beds and you have like um uh 30 uh centimeters in between
00:34:12 uh centimeters in between okay and on the sides as well and in terms of other areas of forgiving have spoken oh sorry and there was like a
00:34:20 a bathroom
00:34:21 bathroom and a little bit of space like this table in front of the um
00:34:26 um of the
00:34:27 of the beds that's all so you've described it quite a compact room was there other areas in a hotel that perhaps you could have gone to uh for so i tried to go uh to the
00:34:38 so i tried to go uh to the uh log is it lobby lobby that's correct lobby yeah so i went there and was like a lot of people it was like holiday was in june
00:34:47 in june so a lot of people they were drinking and laughing and i was not feeling well to stay there to be honest and so i just
00:34:56 so i just you know went back to my room i understand and in relation to the location we heard is in earl's court did that cause you any difficulties the fact that it was in earl's court it was
00:35:07 fact that it was in earl's court it was new area for me i was far away from everywhere and i need to use transport to
00:35:14 to to go around or to go back to the area to
00:35:18 to to grab some more information from people not from anyone else because i was not you know the first one week
00:35:26 week like i had just information from people so i was like lost i was trying to go and come back to that area yes so no information provided about muhammad or anything else
00:35:39 muhammad or anything else i wonder if we perhaps could assist you if you bring up paragraph 62 of your um second statement please
00:35:47 that's iws 401541
00:35:51 401541 i believe
00:35:52 i believe i'll just start the book perhaps i'll read this out and then we can
00:35:56 can it's
00:35:59 it's at page 62. you say this and you refer to holiday inn
00:36:05 inn and you say i did not know the area and i was far away from everything i knew i felt isolated from my friends and community perhaps we could turn over relief before the fire my main support in uk came from omar and
00:36:17 my main support in uk came from omar and muhammad i had other friends in the uk from the syrian community but they were not friends that i knew well now muhammad had died and i was not staying close to omar it was hard to spend time by myself although other people from the tower
00:36:29 although other people from the tower were staying at the holly and i did not know anyone else from the tower very well
00:36:33 well did that sort of describe how you were feeling at that time in that
00:36:38 in that sense the next day after omar um left the hospital omar moved to asam's
00:36:48 asam's flat his cousin yes so
00:36:51 so and i stayed by myself in the hotel because his aunt came from scotland so i was staying there and
00:37:04 i remember like i was there for the whole time and when his
00:37:10 when his family came
00:37:13 they moved to holly um what they called in holland bag helton hotel yes so
00:37:23 yes so i was staying there for three weeks there by myself and
00:37:30 i asked to move to that hotel and they said
00:37:34 said you are not allowed to it's not possible to move there the key worker said that i'm going to just stay with the holly in for a moment and just ask a few
00:37:46 for a moment and just ask a few questions regarding some of the provisions such as food and were you made aware of any arrangements to pay for your travel or other expenses during your stay at a
00:37:57 other expenses during your stay at a hotel i was using my money and from transportation and food so i i wasn't aware of those money or anything
00:38:08 anything at all at the beginning and when did you become aware i'm not sure but i think maybe after one week or ten days so um
00:38:19 so um i hit from people from when omar moved to helton i remember like a lady she was talking about there's
00:38:27 there's money for you know like for food there because you have to buy food from outside and so i was aware of that after
00:38:38 so i was aware of that after and
00:38:38 and i did not use them because i wasn't staying in the hotel the whole time
00:38:45 and is it right that you difficulty finding food where you were which sort of met your halal dietary requirements yes that's correct i found one uh restaurant wasn't that great and i didn't i did not like the food and my
00:38:57 i didn't i did not like the food and my appetite was not that good so and initially you had to do your laundry your friend's house because you weren't aware you could have done it at the hotel is that correct that's correct so
00:39:08 hotel is that correct that's correct so i know um my friend amma he offered me to
00:39:13 to you know like he does my um laundry so um i take i took them to his flat so i washed them there
00:39:24 i washed them there and whilst you're at the at the hotel in those initial days in that first couple of weeks did anybody official come to see you to give you any information or support i remember
00:39:35 information or support i remember right across they came to me and they asked me a few questions how you feel and things like that they grabbed information and they went
00:39:45 they went back
00:39:46 back yeah can you recall when that was i cannot remember to be honest so they came to my room and i
00:39:54 i might remember like a lady and a man sure yeah
00:39:57 sure yeah anybody from the council or bkc no but i remember like uh somebody from housing from westminster he came paul john
00:40:08 paul john he was very serious man he was like um you know you have to when he offered us a flat me and omar
00:40:19 me and omar near the tower was like old flat and wasn't nice he said you have to accept moving there and you know because it's hard like to find
00:40:30 you know because it's hard like to find uh a flat and he was like very very serious he wasn't like you know flexible at all when you say seriously strict strict yeah did you feel under pressure yes that's correct okay
00:40:43 that's correct okay i'm gonna move on to a different topic if that's okay which is we know that you're in a hotel but there was a number of times you went back to the west way isn't that correct yes um
00:40:56 and you described the the west way on the 15th of june how how was it on those subsequent days you attended the west way
00:41:07 i think i i was you know going there but there's no meaning to go there to be honest i was just going to grab some information ask about
00:41:18 ask about you know what's going to happen to to us or
00:41:21 to us or you know just speaking with the other people to know if there's something or any update so and i was trying to go and ask for
00:41:32 so and i was trying to go and ask for you know my family to get a visa or you know get a renewal of my driving license and things like that or my our posts yes let's if we could bring up we got the statement in front of perhaps
00:41:43 the statement in front of perhaps paragraph 76 please
00:41:51 thank you so much so you mentioned this although i was reliant on the west way in the weeks following the fire i did not find the people there very helpful no one at the west way ever explained to me about what assistance financial or
00:42:03 me about what assistance financial or otherwise was available for survivors of the fire i had to find out everything on my own
00:42:08 my own or bkc should have made this information easily available as it was i had to travel to the west whenever i needed something and check what was available and i've got i would have to go there
00:42:19 and i've got i would have to go there even for basic supplies such as bread and cereal as i was not aware of the hotel food allowance i found it difficult to have to travel there so often as i was not near my hotel it was always very chaotic and full of people
00:42:33 always very chaotic and full of people yes was
00:42:35 yes was you know full of people was chaotic place and
00:42:41 they have offered you know food but i don't eat i don't normally eat uh those you know cans and stuff like that is not my type of
00:42:52 my type of you know
00:42:53 you know i eat differently things and i was you know if you take them where shall you go with them because i was spending all days like at omars
00:43:04 spending all days like at omars and then go sleep there so i don't want to hold anything with me and and
00:43:10 and you know one day i remember like i spoke with nhs uh people like about uh you know if they could uh help us me and omar and they said just you know leave your information
00:43:23 you know leave your information and we left our information and nobody called us back so so he said there's you know it's waste of time to go there to be honest we can
00:43:34 we can we could deal with that now if you like so that was one of my headings which is psychological supports and you you have anticipated a question i was going to ask you which was in relation to one of those occasions where you spoke to
00:43:45 those occasions where you spoke to someone at the west way from the nhs and seeking support and
00:43:50 and you asked for them to help and they said that we'll call you back and your evidence was you received no callback no callback and can you recall approximately when that was was that in the first week or two or was it first
00:44:02 the first week or two or was it first week definitely first week i remember like they had you know it's like a place they covered with um
00:44:11 with um can i use the enterprises
00:44:18 plastic sheets plastics plastic sheets okay
00:44:22 okay so they had like plastic sheets covering the place like nhs so and we spoke when with one when the and the
00:44:33 when the and the um
00:44:34 um i think we spoke with the manager there as well he said to us we're gonna call you back i provided my phone number and omar he provided his phone number they haven't called back
00:44:47 they haven't called back and can i ask when was the first time if at all you received counselling through the nhs i don't remember 100 when was it but definitely like
00:44:58 definitely like maybe in first two weeks i had time to talk and i said to them i need an arabic speaker yes because i don't understand and i never been an problem
00:45:10 understand and i never been an problem like that and that guy he was explaining to me on the board and putting some drawers and he was explaining things about the
00:45:21 he was explaining things about the praying and things like that was you know what what he's talking about i'm getting crazy or what it's not you know he was giving me a lecture i said
00:45:31 said i don't want to continue with that it's not the right time to to go on lectures
00:45:37 lectures so would this be a fair summary that the initial support you had in relation to psychological support was was poor yeah definitely did that improve in the coming weeks and
00:45:49 did that improve in the coming weeks and months
00:45:50 months so after that i went to after i cannot remember how many months i went to
00:45:57 somewhere um and the curve
00:46:02 the curve yes the curve yes yeah so i told them about arabic speaker so it was
00:46:08 arranged by maybe mary she's secretary of neck heard
00:46:16 called mary or something so
00:46:18 so she told me somebody will speak your own language and you know arabic speaker yes so i went like few sessions was
00:46:29 few sessions was was helpful but i could not speak in arabic and she was saying okay speak in arabic and i wasn't sure she was understanding me in arabic because i was getting
00:46:41 in arabic because i was getting sometimes different information or following up question was like not linked to what i was saying different perhaps regional variations yeah it's like dialect is completely
00:46:53 yeah it's like dialect is completely different to i think
00:46:56 i think morocco
00:46:58 morocco and some words they are similar but other words it's hard and she was born here it's more harder maybe i just want to return back if i may to back to the westway sports center
00:47:11 back to the westway sports center you described how it was and difficulties you had there did the services which you experienced in those first few days that they improve over the course of time
00:47:24 improve over the course of time to be honest i had no trust with that to go
00:47:28 to go i asked them a few times about my family visa yes and nobody you know
00:47:35 you know told me they could help so they said just for next of kin and another thing we had like 500 of
00:47:45 500 of money from rbkc but they haven't provided any time we could
00:47:50 we could get more money sure and that's all and maybe i replaced my driving license uh through that time but i was you know was hard like
00:48:01 you know was hard like uh to go there and i'm not getting any information or any support so i
00:48:07 so i um
00:48:08 um i'm 100 sure i went there for at least four first two weeks and wasn't that very helpful okay just
00:48:18 just move on
00:48:19 move on on the topics you mentioned which is sort of financial supports yeah and perhaps we could have a look at paragraph 89 of your second statement if we could scroll down a little
00:48:34 and it's really in relation to your financial circumstances after the fire i could not work i was in need of financial assistance but i did not know where to go for this initially it was very difficult for me
00:48:46 initially it was very difficult for me as i did not have enough money to live on no one from obkc or central government ever contacted me in the immediate aftermath of the fire to let me know the financial support was available
00:48:57 available no outreach workers came to the hotel to offer me financial help or information about financial help all the help i received in the weeks after the fire was through attending the release centers where i heard about
00:49:09 release centers where i heard about through word of mouth is that is that correct that's correct and what effects did this lack of information regarding financial assistance have on you at that time
00:49:21 assistance have on you at that time so i was not knowing what what's gonna happen in the future and i was uh totally confused and you know i had like um
00:49:31 like um um
00:49:35 it's hard but just one sec sorry
00:49:49 can i go back for the previous paragraph yes please i read something and yes
00:49:56 yes is this paragraph 89 you want to have a look at it was a paragraph 90 89 yes
00:50:06 and the one after please
00:50:20 so definitely i have a key worker and she came to my uh she came to the hotel but she didn't not offer any support financially support financial support
00:50:32 financially support financial support and
00:50:32 and [Music]
00:50:33 [Music] i could remember she just she had helped me to complete my travel document because i wanted to visit my family because they haven't offered any visa
00:50:44 because they haven't offered any visa for them
00:50:46 for them and
00:50:48 in that time i asked her about moving to omar's
00:50:52 omar's hotel and she did not help with that no perhaps
00:51:00 paragraph 90 sets out the impact it had on you the financial difficulties you say it's the difficulties you had in accessing financial support really added to the stress
00:51:11 to the stress that i was under at the time and i needed money to live on but it was not easy to get help i had to push to get support with things so if i ask some uh about something like in general the
00:51:23 uh about something like in general the first uh few months was like you need to fight for it you have to ask once twice maybe 20 times even you have to you know be like you know
00:51:36 you have to you know be like you know ask them with like
00:51:39 like i don't know you have to push a lot to get what you ask and
00:51:45 and it was like very hard you know they added stress you know i i say the tragedy was equal with with the stress they caused us to be honest was like equal
00:51:56 be honest was like equal was maybe more they they caused a lot of stress and i was like living by myself and you know was like um
00:52:05 um i don't know where to go you know yes in that time
00:52:08 that time well you mentioned you're isolated in the hotel and the difficulties you're having if you could go back to paragraph 75 in that statement please
00:52:18 if that's okay paragraph 75 is that okay i'll correct yes that's good excellence um
00:52:26 um i'm gonna read this in it in its entirety if that's okay because it deals with one specific matter and then the general impacts so i remember i spoke to red cross on one occasion as they said they had money from donations to give
00:52:38 they had money from donations to give out i asked them about this and they said i was not entitled to any money as i was not bereaved i became very stressed about this i had no money at the times i had stopped work since the fire
00:52:49 since the fire because i was finding it hard to cope and i was completely ignorant as to what to do about money i had lost everything i couldn't work this added a stress i was under after seeing the fire the death of my friends and now living on my
00:53:02 death of my friends and now living on my own in an unfamiliar part of london and we know from the earlier part of your statement this is this is an occasion when you're in the west way and you say then a lady came and
00:53:13 and you say then a lady came and introduced herself as being from an islamic care organization she spoke arabic she asked me what was the problem and brought me over to her desk she told me she had money from donations as well
00:53:24 me she had money from donations as well i think she offered me a donation of 500 pounds
00:53:29 is that correct that's correct and you know
00:53:33 you know that's one of the things i remember like i was
00:53:36 i was you know
00:53:37 you know i started to cry in that moment and i was very angry so was like
00:53:44 was like not supported at all was like where to go if i don't have like papers nobody contacted us from you know
00:53:53 you know from rbkco so they provided 500 pounds but how long you can you know uh you know use them for it's not you have
00:54:04 you know use them for it's not you have to travel you have to eat you have to you know like at least i want to wear a clothes i have to buy clothes you know it's not enough it's like you know they were saying you are not
00:54:15 you know they were saying you are not you haven't lost anyone so it's we cannot provide you i said to them
00:54:21 them it's not fair you know at least like you could help people with that at the beginning you don't have to give them a lot of money just you know support them or offer vouchers or anything like
00:54:33 offer vouchers or anything like they they could support us and in relation to money you directly receive from all bkc you did receive some money initially yes correct that's great i think you've touched upon
00:54:44 great i think you've touched upon already in your evidence that you received 500 pounds yes that was probably in the first week or two is that right first week yeah and then you went back the following week to the westway center you set out your statement and you asked for that
00:54:57 your statement and you asked for that you ran out of money that you needed another 500 pounds yes that's what you received yes and were they the only two cash payments you received from all bkc in australia i think so yeah but if i cannot remember i remember
00:55:10 but if i cannot remember i remember something but i'm not sure um was you you registered for that was like department of work and pension but i'm not sure how did we apply for
00:55:21 but i'm not sure how did we apply for that i'll touch upon that now in a moment which i hope will assist you and firstly we know that you received payments
00:55:27 payments as you say in your statement from the almanar
00:55:30 almanar mosque and saint clemens church and you believe those cash payments were in the first 10 days too and you say in your statement at paragraph 93 after two weeks after the
00:55:41 paragraph 93 after two weeks after the fire you were giving a leaflet at the west way from the department of work and pensions that told you that you could collect a payment of 5 000 pounds which was to be splits between you and omar does that help your recollection yes
00:55:54 does that help your recollection yes that's good and i think you mentioned then in your statement that you were directed to the post office and that's where you had to submit an application yes that's it does that sound right yeah it was
00:56:03 it was around that area we're coming close to the end now i'm just going to deal with another topic heading which is key workers which you've touched upon a few times
00:56:14 you've touched upon a few times i just want to sort of um address that and and deal with some residual points and you mentioned your statements that you were not given a key worker until around one week to 10 days after the
00:56:26 around one week to 10 days after the fire does that sound correct in my knowledge yes i i think so and if we perhaps could bring up paragraph 100 please
00:56:41 you say this aside from accommodation i was most stressed i was mostly stressed out about key workers i had several key workers maybe four or five they kept leaving especially at the beginning which meant i had to explain
00:56:53 beginning which meant i had to explain myself each time i met a new one it was frustrating to have to keep repeating myself when i wanted help with something i also had to keep putting pressure on my key workers before they would help with things which was
00:57:04 would help with things which was stressful
00:57:06 stressful is that correct that's correct and i can remember i had the first key worker for 10 days and then the other key work maybe for
00:57:18 maybe for a few weeks and then moved and had another one for three months and then another another so i had in total maybe seven or eight up to now
00:57:31 total maybe seven or eight up to now and
00:57:31 and the hardest thing to explain to everyone at the beginning i need to bring my family here and i was you know i was struggling to do that and
00:57:42 you know i was struggling to do that and when i asked about something about helping with the flat choosing the flat anything like that so they were just you need to keep pushing and pushing and i was very
00:57:53 keep pushing and pushing and i was very tired to do that and you know sometimes i say
00:57:57 i say i i don't push at all i don't ask so to get any supports or assistance your evidence is that you have to keep pushing forward and sometimes like i fed up i don't want any help i say okay
00:58:10 up i don't want any help i say okay if they don't want help that's okay okay and and if you didn't push or support what would happen i don't receive anything okay because you know one day they said if you don't
00:58:21 you know one day they said if you don't ask you won't receive one of my key workers okay
00:58:27 and that that's what your key worker said to you if you don't ask you won't receive yeah i'm gonna move on to um communication as a final
00:58:39 um communication as a final penultimate topic um and you've mentioned a few times about um the lack of information yes and perhaps we could look at paragraph 110 please
00:58:53 this really deals with how you got information the most effective way i obtained information was through other residents and the local community no one from orbkc or any other official
00:59:04 no one from orbkc or any other official position gave me clear advice on what help was available at first i had to find everything out myself
00:59:11 myself and then you describe and there how you got information once you got your permanent accommodation is that right yes that's correct
00:59:22 and a paragraph 108 if we could go back please
00:59:29 and this is what you express which perhaps flows from what you said a few moments ago about what the key worker said to you it seemed to me that rbkc did not want to pay money out
00:59:40 pay money out their approach seemed to me that if residents did not know about financial assistance they would not have to pay for them whenever i spoke to someone from rbkc they would only give me what i had requested nothing else they would not suggest other things i may need or
00:59:52 not suggest other things i may need or be entitled to it may be nervous to find out things from other residents that i had not i had not informed about directly by or bkc
01:00:00 bkc questioned what else i've not been told is that correct that's correct and at the beginning i was very shy to ask about support or help and
01:00:11 and you know i was like feeling uncomfortable to ask somebody and then they don't help if i ask they don't help so you have to push and push and push
01:00:22 so you have to push and push and push until you get what you are asking
01:00:26 asking and sometimes lack of communication like for example i had the key worker she was you know she was appointed and after three weeks i said who's my key worker
01:00:38 three weeks i said who's my key worker you know because one left and they don't tell me she's left until you i don't know they have number key workers help so you have i had called them and they
01:00:49 so you have i had called them and they they said okay we you had this person is is a new key work and then they don't you don't receive any call or any introduction email from them
01:01:01 introduction email from them so i i i supposed to call them not they supposed to call me introdu maybe introduce myself
01:01:11 so you said if i if i ask if i don't ask that don't help yeah if i ask they don't help you you need to push yeah
01:01:22 okay um just dealing really the final topic is this is in relation to your views as the overall response in in the aftermath and at paragraph 98 okay
01:01:35 the aftermath and at paragraph 98 okay if we could have a look at that please please
01:01:42 you say this i do not think or bkc was were helpful in the aftermath of the fire i was already traumatized after what i'd seen in the night of fire i was upset spending a lot of time by
01:01:53 i was upset spending a lot of time by myself and i was crying i couldn't believe what had happened i could not believe i'd lost such a close friend the way i was treated by officials for more bkc often made things worse for me when i asked them for help i often felt
01:02:04 when i asked them for help i often felt ignored i was told something disappointing i later found out to be wrong
01:02:09 wrong and this increased my stress and the tension i was living under
01:02:16 is that correct
01:02:20 so i had pressure in the flat i had you know lack of communication and i was spending at least five months by myself
01:02:31 at least five months by myself you know i remember like i was spending all the time by myself it was really hard to
01:02:38 hard to you know like to remember everything and you know i was not believing what happened i was you know feeling it's a dream or something it was like a
01:02:49 it's a dream or something it was like a terrible thing is there anything else you'd like to say about the impacts and how you were treated in the aftermath of the fire
01:03:00 fire so um i used to live in two bedroom flat and
01:03:04 and you know that's put more pressure on me so
01:03:07 so um we did that bidding system for to get your flat permanent flat and i bid on three so
01:03:18 so they showed me the smallest one i told them i want to bring my family here to stay with me and i used to live in two bedroom and it's like for like as you you put the
01:03:30 it's like for like as you you put the rules you know it's like for like and i would ask for two-bedroom fly because it's for long-term flood it's not like for just today i told them i want somebody to
01:03:42 today i told them i want somebody to stay with me and support me so i would you know bring my fiancee and get married have kids in the future and they were
01:03:53 and they were no it's not you are not entitled i told them okay i know omaha lost somebody and he's
01:03:59 he's more he's got more priority but why you offered him two-bedroom flat they said because he lost somebody i said okay
01:04:07 said okay but i lost somebody else you know like i i lost somebody and i need support i'm a human like him i have feelings you know you have to treat me like similar it's not like
01:04:18 not like it's not like normal life you are treating you know like if you have points and you bid on flats and you take because
01:04:27 because it's long term you know it's it's not normal it's not uh it doesn't happen every day that uh you know that fire so it was like very hard and i spent
01:04:38 so it was like very hard and i spent about one year just trying to push for that and occurs me a lot of stress and you know i was like not sleeping um was like
01:04:49 was like overthinking all the time and they weren't not helping they said no and they they were not trying to help me
01:04:58 me mr alkarade thank you there are all the questions i i wish to ask you mr chairman perhaps we should pause for a short period of time see if there's any further questions to come yes i think we need to do that mr alkara
01:05:09 think we need to do that mr alkara you may not know this but when council gets to the end of his questions we have a short break so that people who are following the proceedings from other places can suggest
01:05:22 other places can suggest further questions that perhaps we want to ask you and i think we'll so we'll break for a short time we'll combine it with the afternoon break which we take in any event all right
01:05:33 all right and um
01:05:34 and um we'll resume please half past three and a half past three we'll tell you whether there are any more questions that we need to ask you is that right that's okay good all right would you go with the usher then please
01:05:49 thank you very much thank you very much we'll see you in a moment thank you
01:06:00 i think that should give plenty of time for any questions thank you and then we'll be ready for uh to resume it over three years thank you very much
01:25:30 would you ask mr alkarad to come back in please
01:25:35 please [Music]
01:25:47 right mr akarat we'll see whether there are any more questions for you okay yes thank you for the time that there's no further questions thank you very well
01:25:56 very well and that concludes our evidence with mr al carrad so thank you very much for attending today thank you very much well no more questions so it just remains for me to thank you very much indeed for coming here to give your evidence to explain what you
01:26:09 give your evidence to explain what you experienced during those awful moments following the fire um i hope it hasn't been too disagreeable for you to describe those events it can't have been
01:26:20 describe those events it can't have been pleasant i think we all understand that but we really are very grateful to you for coming in and telling us what you know so thank you very much indeed thank you very much and
01:26:31 and now you're free to go thank you very much and i also should say thank you very much my pleasure sir we didn't need you as much as we thought we might um because mr al karad's english is actually very good but thank you for
01:26:43 actually very good but thank you for being here thank you
01:26:57 mr keating i'm told we need to have a short break i emphasize the word short so that things can be rearranged slightly before we call the next witness that's correct thank you right so we will rise and fracture darcy i should
01:27:08 will rise and fracture darcy i should come and fetch us as soon as you're ready yes thank you very much
01:31:35 [Music]
01:31:39 yes mr keating thank you mr chairman the next witness is mohamed rasool please good thank you very much
01:31:55 good afternoon mr rasool i understand you're going to take the oath so
01:32:00 oath so there's a
01:32:01 there's a quran there in the in the covering would you take that in your hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by allah that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole
01:32:12 shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now please sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
01:32:25 yes mr keating when you're ready thank you
01:32:29 you good afternoon mr russell thank you so much for attending today and thank you for your patience this afternoon i'm sorry we've kept you waiting a little bit thank you and we're very grateful for your attendance today to assist inquiry with its investigations i'm glad
01:32:40 inquiry with its investigations i'm glad there's a few i'm glad to be here thank you well just a few words by way of introduction which we say to all witnesses actually just as you get used to your surroundings is if i can invite you to keep your
01:32:51 is if i can invite you to keep your voice up as you're doing sure so that the transcriber can hear what you say and record it in evidence it also helps not to nod or shake your head okay why do we would invite you to to either say yes or no or where
01:33:03 to either say yes or no or where appropriates and if any of the questions i ask are unclear don't feel inhibited at all just ask me to rephrase it and i'm happy to do so okay thank you and at any stage you feel uncomfortable or you need a break again
01:33:15 uncomfortable or you need a break again just let us know i'm sure we can accommodate that is that all right yes excellent
01:33:20 excellent just a few formal matters dealing with your statements first of all sure what i'm going to do is is is outline that you've made two statements to inquiry the first is dated the sixth of june
01:33:31 the first is dated the sixth of june 2018 and the second is dated at 27 of february 2020 yes and what we're going to do is we're going to quickly look at those documents in turn so if we could open up the first
01:33:42 so if we could open up the first statement which is iws
01:33:46 50670 please thank you so much we can see your first statement there and if we could go to page 12 please
01:34:07 in a moment you'll see your signature and i'm going to ask you to confirm that is your signature at page 12.
01:34:15 once that's been checked
01:34:18 checked can you confirm that you've had an opportunity to read your statements before giving evidence today yes
01:34:34 there we are i'm very grateful so we see the first statement dated 6 to june 2018 and we see your signature there is that correct that's correct that's nice if you could turn to your second statement which is iws which is
01:34:47 statement which is iws which is just there very quickly thank you so much and we could turn to page 34 please
01:34:54 and again we see your second you for your second statement is that your signature yes excellent and can you confirm in relation to both those statements that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief
01:35:06 the best of your knowledge and belief uh yes
01:35:07 uh yes there might be some just spelling errors and some things like but just yeah that you think so i think spelling errors are probably all right and this is the order of something yeah but pretty much yes but you're content that the contents
01:35:18 but you're content that the contents itself are are are accurate and true to best of your knowledge yeah thank you just going to charge the background please an important background mr razul is that you were a residence in
01:35:31 is that you were a residence in at flight 25 of grenville tower yes at the time of the fire and you you lived there with your with your elderly father and your wife and two young children who were aged six and two at that time is
01:35:43 were aged six and two at that time is that correct yes and you had lived in granville tower for the whole of your life yes that's correct since i was born with my mother and father my mother passed away before the fire in
01:35:55 my mother passed away before the fire in 2014.
01:35:57 2014. yes yeah
01:35:58 yes yeah so
01:35:59 so real close connections to your home from when you were born yes and as a result you have long-standing friendships with a number of families within grenville tower that's correct yes and you set
01:36:11 tower that's correct yes and you set those out in in with some care in your statement which we've read yes and on the early hours of the 14th of june
01:36:20 june um you were asleep in your home when the fire started or you were in your home when the fire started is that correct i would see i was at home i was lying down uh trying to sleep i was kind
01:36:32 lying down uh trying to sleep i was kind of i was awake but trying to sleep but yeah lying down and if you're content i'm going to deal with the the part where you evacuated yourself evacuated from the flats
01:36:43 yourself evacuated from the flats briefly yeah and hopefully you're content with that please do um we know from your first statement you gave to an inquiry where you referred to cctv evidence yes that you left the
01:36:55 cctv evidence yes that you left the tower at 0 1 35 yes and you mentioned in that statement you were subsequently directed by firemen to wait by kensington kensington leisure center is that
01:37:06 kensington leisure center is that correct yes and at that time when you self-evacuated and you were with your your father yeah and who has a number who had a number of
01:37:17 and who has a number who had a number of health issues isn't that correct yes and you're with your wife and your two young children my wife and two kids they left prior to me and my father yes um they went first i had to get up and get
01:37:28 they went first i had to get up and get my father ready to put his coat on you know he had dementia and he didn't and he was disabled he couldn't when we would go outside of our home he needed a wheelchair to move anything further than
01:37:41 wheelchair to move anything further than like 10 15 meters he couldn't do and he was exhausted by the time we got out and how old was he at the time he was 86 86 yeah
01:37:50 86 yeah and i'm sorry that he's he's recently passed away isn't that great away uh january this year at the age of 90. yes yeah
01:37:58 yeah i'm very sorry about your law surrender to
01:38:01 to yeah so
01:38:03 yeah so we were at the stage where you've you with your dad came out of the of the tower and
01:38:11 and perhaps you may wish or you may not wish you did you want to describe the scene how it was when you were when you were outside the tower well when we got out um
01:38:20 um it took us around 10 to 15 minutes i had to support him he was i was walking backwards down the staircase
01:38:27 staircase he was leaning on my shoulders uh you know and he after a few staircases he was just he was really tired and his weight was getting more and more of me and had to
01:38:38 getting more and more of me and had to support more and more yes um when we got out there were firefighters at the bottom of the building and they kind of directed us to go just away from the tower towards
01:38:50 just away from the tower towards grenfell road um
01:38:54 um and yeah just seeing the scene it was looking back now from what i can recall it was just very surreal you know we always we'd had fires in the tower before
01:39:05 before and
01:39:06 and we'd never had an evacuation and just for this to be happening it was just like it was wasn't real at the time so i was focused on just getting my father somewhere to sit down
01:39:17 getting my father somewhere to sit down and we saw him next to grenfell road in the
01:39:20 the uh
01:39:21 uh the low
01:39:22 the low kind of brick wall next to the green grass area subsequently to that we moved to closer towards the
01:39:31 the kensington leisure center and was there any official guidance other than the fire beginner officers you mentioned about where you should go or we didn't have an emergency evacuation or meeting point
01:39:43 evacuation or meeting point if we did
01:39:44 if we did i didn't know about it it wasn't on any of the signage in the tower yeah
01:39:50 yeah you mentioned your statement that it was probably around six o'clock so you were outside the tower for some time and around six o'clock you dropped your your father off at your wife's friend's home yes and
01:40:01 at your wife's friend's home yes and then you started looking for those that were missing with your friends yes i mean before that in the lead up to that six o'clock if i may add of course there was a lot of um
01:40:12 there was a lot of um just a lot of panic people didn't know what was going on and the police called him was again pushed further and further back to the point that where i dropped my family off
01:40:24 family off uh to her i dropped my wife and kids to her friends down the road when i came back my father wasn't you know he was behind the police cordon
01:40:35 i stayed calm and patient and just said look i told the police man or woman i was dealing with uh my father's been left there and to be honest during that time the
01:40:46 and to be honest during that time the local residents just showed some amazing solidarity they came out
01:40:51 came out and bought kind of containers of water water bottles they bought my father a chair to sit on and even i left him with some some of the local neighbors from tread gold house i believe
01:41:03 house i believe just to drop off my wife and kids and they said yeah don't worry we'll we'll look after him um and then yeah until finally friends came down
01:41:13 down and we were just there the whole time i mean until then just watching our home go up in flames
01:41:21 and there's a an important topic which you mentioned in your statement is trying to get information about those who are missing and perhaps you could bring up your statement your second statement please paragraph 91 so that's iws
01:41:32 paragraph 91 so that's iws four zeros one seven six eights please
01:41:38 so 91 yes you say this there's no one official to tell us what we should be doing or where we should go i knew that we had to find information about those who were missing but i did not know where to start
01:41:50 not know where to start and someone from the community directed us to the rugby portobello club and that's where you headed there with and you think that must be around 6 30 a.m yeah
01:42:00 a.m yeah and how would you describe the rugby portobello club when you arrived it was
01:42:06 it was they were i mean if i record correctly there were people outside lots of people inside it was very chaotic um people at that time i think were starting to drop off donations
01:42:19 starting to drop off donations um
01:42:20 um it just just it didn't seem like a place i wanted to be it didn't seem like i would be at ease there um i mean subsequently today later became like a as many other places in
01:42:33 became like a as many other places in the community came emerged into hubs that were kind of real uh sources of of security and help for us um but at that time there was no one no one
01:42:46 but at that time there was no one no one from rbkc there none from the tmo and we were just kind of left on our own yeah just trying to figure things out for ourselves so that time where you say that you were left on your own trying to
01:42:58 that you were left on your own trying to figure things out yourself you mentioned again at paragraph 91 that
01:43:04 that um you saw some of our neighbors there at the rugby portobello club but we did not stay there too long yeah but before we left someone has told you that an emergency center was being set up at the latimer christian center yeah which is
01:43:16 latimer christian center yeah which is relatively close by yeah and you headed there is that correct i went there um i think i was with my friend francis and i think mr sabha at the time if i recall correctly um
01:43:27 if i recall correctly um we went there there was one a lady
01:43:32 i believe from the tml and they'd had a board with like a chart with the list of flat numbers and the names uh my friend francis he happened to
01:43:43 uh my friend francis he happened to notice that flat 153 still had uh like my kind of lifelong friends the duffy brothers who grew up there their mother
01:43:53 mother virginia duffy who passed away a year prior to that were still registered as living there and
01:44:03 and you can imagine that kind of devastation we felt like we're here seeking a source of security and and uh
01:44:14 seeking a source of security and and uh solace with the authorities someone to guide us and kind of give us information and help us through what we're going through and they couldn't even get something right as knowing who lived in the flats
01:44:27 right as knowing who lived in the flats and especially if that that's like you know there was a young five-year-old isaac who passed away from that very same address so you'd recognize that there was that outdated information which you've just
01:44:39 outdated information which you've just explained to us and were you able to get any information or advice from the tmo person you mentioned at the white board or anybody else no no i think at that point leading up to that i mean before the
01:44:51 leading up to that i mean before the fire and
01:44:53 fire and the events on the day there was already kind of a gross mistrust in the community with regards to rbkc and the tmo
01:45:04 with regards to rbkc and the tmo and
01:45:05 and just that event in itself going there and seeing that the names weren't correct
01:45:10 correct uh
01:45:12 uh it just you know it put everything made everything i don't know i don't know how to word it
01:45:22 just made their their attitude of of and culture of neglect that we've been experiencing with them in dealing with the council and and the tml it just
01:45:33 the council and and the tml it just brought it all up to the surface and just so wow like they're not even they don't even care to have our names properly as who's living in those addresses and after that we just lost hope in in
01:45:45 after that we just lost hope in in seeking uh help from them again kind of thing it's just like we're on our own we need to do this ourselves
01:45:51 ourselves you mentioned your statement that after the latimer christian center that you went to the harrow club yep and did you find any information when you went to the harrell club so at the latimer christian center at the arrow
01:46:02 latimer christian center at the arrow club
01:46:05 i left the names of people who were like family to me um ahmed al-ghari's mother isla el guari and his sister miriam el guari
01:46:17 and his sister miriam el guari uh my wife's best friend and my friend's wife rania ibrahim and her two beautiful daughters
01:46:23 daughters fatah and haniyeh we left their names there
01:46:28 there having
01:46:28 having [Music]
01:46:30 [Music] hoping you know that they would they were still alive and that they'd managed to get out
01:46:38 but we you know we had no feedback from anyone when we were at those place so i was just
01:46:43 was just my family at least and in that sense at the time
01:46:47 the time i did what i could uh
01:46:50 uh as a father as a husband as a son with my immediate family but i wanted to help my friends who were like my family
01:47:01 my friends who were like my family you know hassan ranya's husband he wasn't in the country at the time and i felt my duty to time try and help his family and see where they are and make sure they're safe yes and see ahmed's uh mother who
01:47:13 safe yes and see ahmed's uh mother who was like a mother to me and his sister was like a sister to me uh see that they were safe and where they are and just just try and do my bit as much as i could did you feel like you had a responsibility to try to help again
01:47:24 responsibility to try to help again so definitely yes because they were like family to me i know they would do the same thing yes and throughout the whole ordeal you know i look back now and i can't
01:47:38 i got out with my father and my wife and kids
01:47:42 kids and two on either side two of the closest people to me one lost his mother and his his sister and the other lost his wife and children and
01:47:54 and does something that i couldn't how do i console them
01:48:02 yes how do i be a source of comfort for them
01:48:06 them and it's something that i looking back you know that i am grateful for for myself that i'm i'm blessed and fortunate in ways that other people haven't been to i've got out with my
01:48:18 haven't been to i've got out with my family yes but i don't know like i didn't know what to say to them at the time um
01:48:26 like um if i may had
01:48:30 the day next day you know hassan was out of the country he'd been looking after his brother for six months who you know he had his his brother had his leg legs amputated amputated in egypt because of extreme diabetes and he
01:48:43 egypt because of extreme diabetes and he was looking after him he hadn't seen his kids the wife and kids for a long time he arrived the next morning and the first place i happened to make contact with him was the el minar
01:48:55 was the el minar mosque and uh
01:49:01 uh i i just remember like i was i was there trying to make sense of things trying to find some peace in the mosque um
01:49:10 um i know the moment i saw him and he came over to me and
01:49:16 and you know i tried to do what i can to help his family um on the night we were trying to make phone calls to his wife my wife managed to call her tell her to get out and as
01:49:28 to call her tell her to get out and as soon as i saw him you know i got up embraced him um i was trying to keep it together and he he's you know i i'm the one who broke out crying and he told me just you
01:49:39 broke out crying and he told me just you know it's for his words about humbly you know
01:49:43 you know all thanks and praise be to god whatever we go through yes and i think just that kind of reflection of our the islamic tradition where
01:49:53 whatever you go for in life you deal with it you have your struggles you apply the means outwardly but inwardly there should be that we should strive for that inner inner peace
01:50:04 peace where we accept uh kind of you know god's divine decree and things that happen and for me um
01:50:15 happen and for me um i was just i was blown away just about how he how he reacted and how he kept it together and i was inspirational
01:50:25 you mentioned your sense of duty and responsibility to help those in your community and yeah and
01:50:33 and those difficulties trying to get information you mentioned going to the rest centers you set out in your statements about going to a number of hospitals and not having any
01:50:45 of hospitals and not having any any luck or any real information is that is that fair no um yeah that is correct um we first went to saint mary's hospital um we would go to the andes
01:50:57 um we would go to the andes by this time i'd met up with ahmed al gorey
01:51:01 gorey um
01:51:02 um and at that time he'd already as it says in my statement he told me that you know he'd heard his mother and sister lose consciousness and the phone he was still on the phone for like an hour and 13 minutes afterwards
01:51:15 hour and 13 minutes afterwards uh listening to the glass breaking listening to the fire spreading until the fire until the phone completely cut out
01:51:23 out i didn't know what he was going through but i was trying or i couldn't relate what he was going through but i was trying to be there for him so we went to the hospitals together some mary's first leaving the names and then we went to
01:51:36 leaving the names and then we went to chelsea westminster hospital where we ended up staying for a few hours there were other survivors there
01:51:44 and as time went on the the numbers were increasing um
01:51:50 um people were in a deep state of trauma and not knowing how to deal with it and
01:52:00 the way people kind of managed to to to uh maintain their composure with everything they were going through and everything they had been through and
01:52:11 and everything they had been through and still try and look for their loved ones and yet we were getting no no information we just got the response all uh our task force is being gathered
01:52:22 our task force is being gathered together
01:52:23 together and we're trying our best you mentioned in relation to that last points was result that you were told at that hospital that there was no point going to other
01:52:34 there was no point going to other hospitals was they were going to tell you the same thing yeah and you waited around there for some time a couple of hours yeah and then decided that perhaps there was no more
01:52:45 decided that perhaps there was no more use in doing so and in due course you went back towards the rugby portobello club is that correct yeah that's correct um
01:52:56 i think when they said that you know they're going to tell you the same thing wherever you go any other hospitals um you can imagine that would have been
01:53:07 you can imagine that would have been quite a blow to all of us um
01:53:11 um so we went back towards the area back into the area back into the immediate vicinity of the tower uh specifically the rugby club
01:53:22 uh specifically the rugby club um
01:53:24 um we've kind of want to say broken hearts but obviously people's thoughts were already broken but even
01:53:31 but even even more weight on our on our hearts uh not knowing that we couldn't you know we weren't helped or we couldn't find out any more about loved ones and so on
01:53:43 loved ones and so on by that time we went back to the rugby portobello club uh i think significant amount of donations had
01:53:50 had had at that time been gathered to put tables out with food donations clothes and there was a lot of people around they had in the basement of the rugby portobello club
01:54:01 portobello club you know blankets and and i think mattresses even laid out for people
01:54:07 people and to be honest what we didn't find in the response of the authorities we find we found
01:54:14 we found in the response of the public and out of the british public and in particular the the local community i mean there's two sides to this coin of of the
01:54:22 of the grenfell tragedy is kind of the how do authorities let us down um
01:54:29 um and
01:54:30 and the the positive side is the beauty that came out of it of how it brought our community together and um i think without the faith communities without the
01:54:42 the faith communities without the volunteers you know it just it would have been horrific for all of us and they really just played a kind of integral role in in cushioning us in
01:54:56 in supporting us through our trauma our grieving in helping us practically get the right information we needed because there was no one from the authorities on the ground and at the rugby club at that time tell us do this
01:55:08 rugby club at that time tell us do this you need to leave your numbers here or do that and we just it was mainly volunteered and helped by the public can i ask you a little bit about one aspect of rugby portobello club it's in relation to
01:55:20 it's in relation to your needs to get some emergency accommodation because you had no home to return to yeah and did you make some efforts to try to get accommodation on the 14th of june it
01:55:33 it from what i can recollect it was just very surreal like the fact that we were homeless all been made homeless i'll be honest it didn't even
01:55:44 i'll be honest it didn't even sink thinking at the time even maybe up until we spent 19 months in hotels and i think up until only when we moved out of the hotel did we realize
01:55:56 hotel did we realize um
01:55:57 um that we were kind of essentially homeless
01:56:01 homeless we lived in the immediate aftermath i know we're focusing on the seven days but we lived in that immediate aftermath for that the whole of that 19 months me my wife my disabled father with dementia and my my two kids
01:56:13 and my my two kids my baby daughter who've had sickle blood disease as well and on the day um my main focus was trying to just uh just find uh
01:56:25 just find uh you know the neighbors find our neighbours and family yes the whole thing about finding accommodation came later
01:56:36 came later through my contact with shaheen he told me they were taking a list down at the rugby portobello club this was much later during the day and i think i left i left my name and then someone called me later that evening but again
01:56:47 called me later that evening but again no
01:56:48 no no like physical presence on behalf of the tml with the council no one there you know saying can we help you let's take your details down and i didn't see any of that no human side to them present there
01:57:01 no human side to them present there you make that clear in your statement that it was much later in a day yeah that you spoke to a volunteer at the rugby portobello club regarding accommodation and you received a call that evening from the council
01:57:12 a call that evening from the council confirming that they had booked a room for you and your family at this stage at the premier inn hotel in hammersmith for one one night yeah and you mentioned and we've discussed
01:57:23 and you mentioned and we've discussed your your father's health issues yeah um which included the use of a wheelchair and a need for a wheelchair yeah and when you spoke to the person on on the
01:57:34 when you spoke to the person on on the on the line from our bkc regarding your needs yeah was there did you mention that your dad had
01:57:42 had um
01:57:43 um physical impairment it meant that he required a wheelchair from what if i from my recall yes i did mention that he was disabled i didn't really i don't think i'm not
01:57:54 i didn't really i don't think i'm not sure if i went into the details and mentioned his dementia i probably i believe i did but um
01:58:00 um but they said just you know we'll just have you there for the night and then we'll make better arrangements uh the next day and it was me my my wife and kids uh two kids on a
01:58:13 my my wife and kids uh two kids on a double bed five-year-old son and a year and a half old baby girl myself and my wife and i sink on that double bed not like a king sized up with a small double bed and my father was on a single uh bed
01:58:26 a single uh bed a small single bed like the one you extend out not a proper one yeah and in relation to actually getting there that that evening on the 14th of june
01:58:36 june your family was there any arrangements made or offered to you about being transported to the hotel no none on the evening we were dropped off to the hotel by a friend
01:58:47 to the hotel by a friend and when you had the conversation on the phone to somebody from our bkc was there any other
01:58:52 any other assistance offered or information given to you about financial support or any other support that could not be available no to the best of my recollection
01:59:03 to the best of my recollection and we know that the next morning but you helpfully set it out on your statement you received a call again from somebody at rbkc telling you that they had arranged transport this time
01:59:14 had arranged transport this time to take you and your family to the earl's court premier inn yeah and you were told that there was a room with disability access yes and you mentioned your statement that
01:59:25 and you mentioned your statement that this hotel there was two rooms allocated one was on the second floor and this the second room was on the fourth floor um okay a slight correction there um
01:59:37 um okay a slight correction there um this is me yeah now the uh the one that was on the second floor was actually the ground floor okay um which was well my wife and kids stayed there and my father's so-called disabled
01:59:51 there and my father's so-called disabled room was only on the second or third floor with elevator access i mean it didn't really have any kind of disability facilities it was just a slightly bigger
02:00:03 facilities it was just a slightly bigger room
02:00:04 room it didn't have like a walk-in shower and
02:00:08 and you know my father he had along with his vascular dementia he had angina he had he was incontinent he had to wear like uh both types of incontinence so he had to
02:00:19 both types of incontinence so he had to wear like adult nappies or incontinence pads and so we didn't have a proper way or proper place to exchange him and wash him properly
02:00:30 him properly we changed and washed him of course um but usually you know a proper disabled facility would have like a walking shower with uh with a chair for him to sit down and
02:00:42 with a chair for him to sit down and watch him and change him in that and so on uh but he didn't we didn't have that and
02:00:46 and the fact that
02:00:49 and i understand the exceptional circumstances but what exacerbates the trauma and the the grief of everything we went through you know
02:00:59 you know we want to be together as much as possible and to put part of my family in one room and then the other part uh met my father and i had to stay with him because since he uh
02:01:12 had to stay with him because since he uh he was so familiar with his surroundings in the flat in grenfell tower since
02:01:18 since the fire and i know he didn't recall it because of his dementia which i could see that as a blessing for him
02:01:27 but he was extremely disoriented he didn't know where he was most of the time
02:01:32 time and he would continuously attempt to get out and while we were in that crim premiere in east cromwell road i was caught one you know he managed to get out one time
02:01:43 you know he managed to get out one time while i was sleeping right next to him me and my son my son walked me up he says daddy or bubba
02:01:48 bubba uh granddad's gone out where he's where is he
02:01:52 is he looked all over the hotel couldn't find him and someone managed to spot him crossing the dual carriageway in front of the hotel with his walking stick and this was a situation
02:02:03 situation we had to live for for 19 months someone had to constantly be with him uh he's my father and you know it's my duty to serve him and look after him but it it was exhausting to the point i
02:02:16 but it it was exhausting to the point i had to like i couldn't go back to work i had to get my sister from egypt to come and help look after him help us look after him if he needed nine o'clock attention
02:02:26 attention you've set out would care that the real difficult circumstances you and your family are experiencing and you mentioned the placement of the rooms meant that the effect was that your family was split up for several
02:02:37 your family was split up for several months yeah i want to just deal with a few discreet specific areas if i may sure and food provision
02:02:45 provision and were you aware that food was available to you when you were in the in the premier inn at earl's court hotel in the beginning now in the beginning there were several weeks
02:02:56 there were several weeks before
02:02:58 before we found out that we could have breakfast there and then much later like maybe two months or more before other meals were made available to us
02:03:08 to us if i'm not if i recollect correctly [Music]
02:03:13 [Music] but we were living most of the time on take away
02:03:16 take away meal deals from tesco's and obviously i had two young kids and my father and this you know it wasn't a healthy environment for me to look after them and in terms
02:03:28 for me to look after them and in terms of your religious needs was there um halal food which was available at the hotel no no
02:03:36 no take it
02:03:41 no and it was an ordeal to constantly take my father down uh
02:03:46 uh to the to the kind of dining area the breakfast hall to take him make him walk down and tie him out
02:03:52 him out have his breakfast make him walk up again no wheelchair you know it was tiring for him yes and we had to do this every day you know when
02:04:01 when when we had access to the breakfast uh and the other and the other meals later on
02:04:09 later on yeah much later um you mentioned in your statement that it was really difficult living in a hotel
02:04:15 hotel we'd no cooking or laundry facilities we'd put our laundry in black bags and suitcases
02:04:20 suitcases and then take them in a cab to laundret and then back to the hotel the whole i mean yeah when you mentioned that that whole ordeal the only way i could wear that is we felt
02:04:31 we felt you know and i think i've put this in my statement we felt like refugees in our own country we felt that it was it was hard work you know my wife was doing the laundry
02:04:43 you know my wife was doing the laundry god bless her while i was going to work uh
02:04:47 uh and into a degree it was like it was humiliating demeaning as well you know this is we were a vulnerable group of people who were trying to deal with our trauma
02:04:55 trauma trying to grieve but the whole dynamics of the situation didn't allow any of that we were in living in limbo for 19 months as long as as long as well
02:05:06 for 19 months as long as as long as well as the other survivors in and bereaved living in limbo living a stunted
02:05:14 stunted stage of our lives
02:05:17 we couldn't we weren't given the room with a capacity to heal and that was you know that was like that was
02:05:28 that was just widening our wounds even more
02:05:32 more and what added insult to injury as well that is that we the people who were
02:05:38 who were major contributors to the problem in rbkc in the tmo before the fire were still in charge after the
02:05:47 after the and fire
02:05:47 and fire charge of us essentially and from our you know our meetings with them subsequently much later you know they still haven't learned their lessons um
02:06:00 sorry there's another point i wanted to add the uh the laundry um
02:06:06 um i may be covering them in the next questions yes sorry and perhaps hopefully i will sure but if it comes back to you do do let me know sure the next heading is really basic provisions and financial assistance sure just got a
02:06:18 and financial assistance sure just got a couple of headings which hopefully will assist you and capture those areas you want to tell the panel about okay you describe going to the west west sports center in the coming days and i just wanted to check whether you
02:06:29 just wanted to check whether you attended the westwood center within the first week following the fire can you recall that i recall i think it was much later
02:06:37 later yeah a few weeks later maybe and what drew your attention to go to the west where how did you know that was a place to go to um so most of the information i had um
02:06:50 that i would receive and i like like many of the other survivors was just through word of mouth mainly from between ourselves and from volunteers um i think
02:07:02 volunteers um i think i mean i have to put to put this into context the first after the first day and so we
02:07:07 and so we and seeing that we've got no hope in getting assistance from our local authorities or central government at the time
02:07:14 time we started to group together i was going around taking people's numbers and their flat numbers yes from my you know my family of neighbors
02:07:24 and we arranged to meet up and to coordinate ourselves um and we formed a whatsapp group and via that we were passing kind of relevant
02:07:33 relevant information to each other and
02:07:36 and uh later on you know people told me that uh different kind of organizations government kind of organizations had representatives in the set up in the west way
02:07:47 west way uh to kind of help us if people had lost their passports forms of id and needed financial assistance and so on but in the beginning there was so much confusion and chaos
02:07:59 much confusion and chaos you know the area was flooded with kind of journalists and different types of officials and lawyers and stuff and we just didn't know really who to trust yes yeah
02:08:11 trust yes yeah i want to touch upon financial assistance and you mentioned in your statement at paragraph 136 in the first couple of weeks after fire as i had my wallet we lived on our own savings and cash
02:08:22 we lived on our own savings and cash yeah have been given to us by friends and family yes then you go on to say it was much later that we found out about financial assistance from the government yes um paragraph 137 i think i was yeah
02:08:35 yes um paragraph 137 i think i was yeah the last part and can you recall when when you became aware of financial assistance which was available i think about a few months later well maybe eight weeks later if i'm not mistaken if i recollect properly
02:08:47 i'm not mistaken if i recollect properly but much much later and it was always a case when i found out something that the service was available to us um
02:08:58 um you know it was it was never put out there with whoever we were dealing with from rbkc or teemo uh it was always a case where we had to chase it up and again you know looking
02:09:09 and again you know looking at such a
02:09:11 at such a the survivors at the time looking at such a vulnerable group of people they were constantly kind of just running through hoops uh
02:09:20 uh jumping over hurdles which they shouldn't have been made to do that you know people should have been reaching out to us and saying you know this service is available this is available can we help you with this
02:09:31 available can we help you with this camera and it's just it was always a case where when we were dealing with
02:09:36 rbkc um
02:09:40 they were just never proactive never proactive never thinking or putting themselves in our shoes it was just kickbox exercises and um
02:09:51 it was just kickbox exercises and um always reactive in so in those first few weeks you were dependent on your own savings and cash and the generosity of friends and other volunteer
02:10:02 of friends and other volunteer organizations yeah correct yes the amazing and i've really left him the amazing generality of volunteers and the british public which i think you know this country should be proud of
02:10:13 proud of the public's response in that tragedy was something i'll never forget for the rest of my life to me that represented represented what you know humanity should strive for that
02:10:25 you know humanity should strive for that with our differences because we had people from all over coming to help us all different ethnicities all different religious backgrounds all socioeconomic classes they came and you know they brought us donations
02:10:38 and you know they brought us donations money
02:10:39 money food of clothes they bought toys for my children and
02:10:44 the phrase which i've come said before like you know we we shed tears over all the people we lost on that night and we also shed tears me and my wife
02:10:56 and we also shed tears me and my wife over just being overwhelmed by people's uh
02:10:59 uh people's uh generosity and good um charity towards us yeah that's something i'll never forget um
02:11:10 um and it wasn't there were no barriers there were no barriers you know there were no barriers of race or anything like that everyone was proud of their identity of their diversity
02:11:21 diversity but yet it wasn't a barrier and i think that's something in that in that moment
02:11:27 moment you had something that we could all strive for in this society we should be proud of on the flip side of that the authorities were like nowhere to be seen and they were the exact opposite
02:11:40 seen and they were the exact opposite people who we you know who are meant to be in charge of our affairs and serving us are nowhere to be seen
02:11:51 and um i think it showed the true colors of
02:11:55 of as any tragic situation or any kind of disaster it brings out the real
02:12:01 the real colors of people what they really like their old proverb a friend in need as a friend indeed and i think for me it just showed what the public were like to us and how they supported
02:12:12 were like to us and how they supported us
02:12:12 us and just that we didn't really mean anything on the flip side we didn't really mean anything to the authorities who were meant to be in charge of our faith which wasn't a change from our previous interaction with them
02:12:24 previous interaction with them i want to ask you about one scheme which was there designed to give give you and those affected some support which is key workers yeah and
02:12:34 and um
02:12:35 um perhaps assist you with some of the background which you've helped me set out in your statement yes is it correct that you were not appointed a key worker until a few weeks after the fire yes we didn't see anyone until um
02:12:49 we didn't see anyone until um like a face a formal someone representing the council or the tmo for weeks after for a few weeks after it was just over the phone
02:12:59 the phone you know which was like a very inhumane way to deal with people that had been through what they'd just been through so the initial key worker contact was it
02:13:10 so the initial key worker contact was it was over the phone no this was someone the initial contact was just someone to get details of our our details okay and it and it was a reoccurring thing that constantly down
02:13:21 reoccurring thing that constantly down the line we had to keep giving information again and again and
02:13:27 and you know we were just wondering why is there not a more efficient way of
02:13:32 way of communication within your organization the tmo and rb or rbkc where you can preserve the data more efficiently rather than us have to kind of keep
02:13:45 rather than us have to kind of keep reliving
02:13:47 reliving what we've been through and giving the same information where we've come from what we're experiencing and so on and so on and it's just it yeah it just exacerbated the wounds that were already there
02:13:58 that were already there and opened them up more we mentioned your statement you had six different key workers in a space of a month including one just for a weekend yes and in terms of the impacts you've already helpfully set that out yeah
02:14:11 already helpfully set that out yeah perhaps we could turn to paragraph 120 i'll go back up to paragraph 120.
02:14:18 and you say this
02:14:21 we quickly realized that as soon as we became comfortable with a key worker from whom we sensed any sympathy and worked to develop a relationship with them the cancer would take them away and this was so disruptive in our
02:14:34 away and this was so disruptive in our already unsettled lives
02:14:37 lives yeah um
02:14:40 yeah um uh i mentioned later on that one of the best key workers we had was a lady called hannah uh and i think looking back in retrospect um
02:14:52 um you know i was trying a person in my position trying to be you know leading the family a man be a strong husband be a good father be a good son
02:15:03 good son uh and all of us dealing with our trauma and dealing with our grief at times you know in in the hotel environment we didn't have any escape or outlet
02:15:14 outlet to kind of vent any of our emotions or experiences out and that
02:15:20 and that it wasn't a healthy environment from us for us sorry um
02:15:25 the key workers
02:15:29 were meant to be kind of a bridge obviously between us and the and the council and in some ways at some in some moments in the beginning we saw them as kind of uh
02:15:42 we saw them as kind of uh you know an extended rope a hand of help for us
02:15:48 for us so we we kind of put our hope in them to a degree but each time
02:15:53 each time when they would change them it was just it was like a slap in the face um
02:16:02 you mentioned hannah was useful as a as a key worker and a positive yes and
02:16:10 and generally when you're asking a key worker one of your key workers for help what sort of kind of response would you get so with her she was i mean just in her specifically she was ver she was
02:16:21 her specifically she was ver she was very empathetic it seemed that she could she knew how to deal with us a bit better again because of her background she dealt with other survivors who kind of uh taught
02:16:32 other survivors who kind of uh taught her how to deal appropriately with people dealing with torment shock and grief and so on and loss of of loved ones
02:16:42 but generally the the other ones we dealt with you know someone coming to meet us
02:16:47 meet us they've been drafted in from another borough another council over the weekend who come in and tell us okay we're here we're just with you for the day and then tomorrow you know someone else is going
02:16:58 tomorrow you know someone else is going to be with you just again it's just all we wanted throughout the whole ordeal was just to be treated like people and it just seemed like when you were changing
02:17:07 changing these sources these were meant to be representing kind of
02:17:12 representations of help from the local authority and you just keep changing them and not listening to our needs and not listening to our concerns when we're saying you know just
02:17:23 concerns when we're saying you know just keep keep us with one with one key worker it's it's more humane
02:17:28 humane they can relate to us more but each time we had to change them we had to go through relive
02:17:36 relive the the night the trauma and explain our needs and explain our situation and it was just like you know you're hurting us again and again and again why are you doing this to us i'm just going to move on to another
02:17:49 i'm just going to move on to another if you're if you're finished in relation to that it's going to move on to another discreet area which touches upon your father who we've mentioned a few times now yeah and you
02:18:00 mentioned a few times now yeah and you shared the particular challenges and difficulties he had and you face in the aftermath you say at paragraph 142
02:18:12 second statement forgive me that we had escaped a burning building and no one offered us even a basic checkup
02:18:21 checkup no so really from that initial stage you felt unsupported in relation to the needs of your father is that correct no yeah yes and is it right in the coming
02:18:33 coming um
02:18:34 um week or two and thereafter you receive little support or any support from the tmo or obkc in relation to your father's needs no
02:18:43 needs no no one came out no no kind of medical specialist came to check us uh in that immediate week or maybe and maybe for a while after that as well um no one came to assess my father no one
02:18:56 no one came to assess my father no one came to assist my daughter who was she was only a baby at the time a year and a half old
02:19:02 half old but she had sickle she has sickle blood disease
02:19:06 disease no one came to you know to check on the children and what they'd been through or us it came much much later but no one came for the
02:19:18 much later but no one came for the physical medical no checks at all which for me was just again it's just kind of leaving us on our own two feet i chased up the pharmacy and got his medication
02:19:29 pharmacy and got his medication um he got he got a replacement wheelchair months later which meant he just kind of basically had to stay in his room with supervision of our supervision under our supervision
02:19:42 under our supervision we could turn to paragraph 168 please of your second statement thank you sure
02:19:53 and you say this the specific needs of my family were not met in the aftermath of the fire with two young children and an elderly father with disabilities my wife and i should have received more support from obkc
02:20:05 support from obkc my children and my father's needs should have been assessed more thoroughly and support that work for our family should be put in place our lives had been turned upside down we were grieving
02:20:16 we were grieving and emotionally stretched the least that rbkc could have done was to make sure that we did not have to worry about the practicalities of our living situation following the fire is that correct yes um
02:20:29 is that correct yes um if i may add of course elaborate
02:20:32 elaborate just i mean with everything that we were dealing with
02:20:37 we still had to fight for
02:20:42 for the accommodation which we eventually got
02:20:44 got we still had to inquire and apply and go by all the kind of normal avenues that someone who hasn't been through that would have to go to find out what what our rights were uh
02:20:55 to find out what what our rights were uh what was being offered to us [Music]
02:20:59 [Music] how this is going to play out in the future what's going to happen with our accommodation and again it was just all of this was it was a very cruel
02:21:09 drawn out insensitive process where it just seems we were like um guinea pigs
02:21:17 of a trial and error system that rbkcu and the central government were learning from us and learning from from our
02:21:31 our experiences
02:21:34 how to deal with this group of how to deal with a traumatized group of people in such a situation but it was it was just it was i mean for me
02:21:47 just it was i mean for me you should i shouldn't have had to have kind of been urging and fighting and struggling to arrange accommodation to to uh fight for a home for my family
02:21:58 to uh fight for a home for my family with everything that we've been through and that was that was pretty much everyone else all the survivors were in the same boat all my neighbors my family of neighbors were in the same boat
02:22:08 boat and it was just it was it there was no one there like making the process easier yes you had key workers but it was just we are so many times
02:22:19 we are so many times for the government to take over to be able to you know to put in an emergency task force because rbkc are doing such an awful job and they're not listening to our needs
02:22:31 and they're not listening to our needs and they're not treating us like human beings they're not treating us like people
02:22:35 people so many times and it was just turned out it was just turned out turned out um
02:22:42 i know i'm repeating some of the points and iterating them but yeah not at all in fact i was moving really to one of the final questions we've dealt with a number of areas yeah
02:22:55 we've dealt with a number of areas yeah and you've expressed your views and opinion as to how you were treated and your family was treated yeah adequacy of that response yeah and i just wanted to to give you the opportunity if there was anything else you wanted to say in
02:23:06 anything else you wanted to say in relation to how you were treated in those days in the immediate aftermath of the fire i mean everything everything i've said like i put this out in a statement i'm saying this knowing that
02:23:17 statement i'm saying this knowing that those were exceptional circumstances they weren't normal
02:23:21 normal and it was a new new ground for the authorities for the local government but i just would have expected a you know firmer hands on the reins in
02:23:33 a you know firmer hands on the reins in the situation better leadership from the local council from from from the government at the time you know and by the time people were coming to seed us to see us
02:23:44 coming to seed us to see us uh you know the prime minister came down uh other people came down the queen came down which was that i thought that was beautiful she did more than what rbk season than others
02:23:55 season than others but by that time we had already been survivors had already been dispersed all over the area and again it just felt like too little too late when people were coming and doing this and it was
02:24:07 were coming and doing this and it was you know they were meeting the firefighters that makes it but where were we in in the picture we weren't in the picture and it just felt like we were just out cast you know we went in the area we had to
02:24:19 you know we went in the area we had to go back
02:24:20 go back uh when we were in our hotels into the area to get any news to find out about things
02:24:26 things you know uh about services about help uh
02:24:31 uh and again it was just the local community the you had
02:24:36 you had forming
02:24:38 forming hubs from the local faith communities the mosques the churches the youth centers and they became kind of just
02:24:50 just a breath of fresh air for us just really places where we could go and and get practical advice practical help um
02:24:58 um from people we trusted because a lot of the time when we were dealing with representatives of the authorities there was just such a deep distrust there and it still is rightfully so from how
02:25:10 and it still is rightfully so from how from my experience with dealing with rbkc in the tml before
02:25:16 before during and after the fire and
02:25:19 and um
02:25:21 um yeah this is where the the british public kind of stepped up and they filled in those gaps in an amazing way but it shouldn't have been the case this should have been this should have been the responsibility of the people who are
02:25:32 the responsibility of the people who are in charge of us the people who you know the politicians the the councillors who who are in charge of the local authority who who this is their role they're meant to be the leaders looking
02:25:43 they're meant to be the leaders looking after us and kind of attending to our needs but if they were nowhere to be seen
02:25:48 seen during the whole like majority of the immediate aftermath and afterwards and
02:25:54 and repetitively for our 19-month stay in the hotels we were in meetings with them and they had to be reminded by others other survivors believed
02:26:05 other survivors believed that you know people were having meetings with and counselors and so on people from the representing the local government and they're on their mobile phone not even giving us the attention that we deserve
02:26:18 the attention that we deserve and that's that's been our experience of them and it should be the case that people are in charge of us you know they should be the people who have the most uh
02:26:28 uh the greatest moral integrity but it's the other way around we've met many of them and it seems that they they're the people who are the most detached
02:26:37 detached from what the people you know the public are going through and what we were going through um
02:26:44 um and to be honest the way i say grenfell was just
02:26:48 was just it was just a bubbling to the surface of a whole plethora of problems we've got in our society and that was just the kind of the
02:26:59 that was just the kind of the manifestation of it there's you know it was just a manifestation of the deep rooted problems we have in our society with between the government and the public that we have incompetent individuals that are running the show
02:27:11 individuals that are running the show who don't care about their constituents they can't relate to them they can't you know and i think this these this bridge needs to be gapped this gap needs to be bridged in the
02:27:22 this gap needs to be bridged in the future
02:27:23 future where people who are in government who are in local government they need to know the problems of the people that are their constituents for there to be any kind of beneficial change in the future if that gap is not bridged then it's just going to be the same thing
02:27:36 just going to be the same thing mr razor thank you so much for your evidence today thank you and they're all the questions i wish to ask you at this stage but our normal process is to
02:27:46 is to invite a brief pause perhaps for five minutes mr chairman if we can to see if there's any further questions from those who are watching remotely or within the room
02:27:55 room right thank you very much well mr azul you may know this but at this point we we have to have a short break so that people who are following partly from this room and partly from elsewhere can suggest further questions
02:28:07 elsewhere can suggest further questions so
02:28:08 so i i think i'm going to say five minutes but if you need more you can ask the usher to come and tell us and we'll accommodate you we'll break for five minutes we'll come back at 20 to five and then we'll see if
02:28:19 back at 20 to five and then we'll see if there are any more questions at that point all right okay thank you thank you very much would you go with the usher then please [Music]
02:28:35 [Applause] thank you mr keating to 5 unless you need more time thank you
02:34:51 would you ask mr russell to come back in please
02:35:06 all right mr russell well we'll see if there any more questions mr keating well mr chairman thank you so much for the time there's no further questions and that concludes the evidence in relation to this witness thank you very
02:35:17 relation to this witness thank you very much indeed well no more questions mr razor but it's right that i should thank you very much on behalf of the panel for coming to describe your experiences if i may say so most eloquently i think we were all
02:35:29 so most eloquently i think we were all very affected by what you told us and it's shown quite a powerful light on your experiences and no doubt the experiences of many other people so
02:35:40 experiences of many other people so we're very grateful to you for coming to give your evidence and now you're free to go thank you thank you very much thank you for listening
02:35:48 listening thank you
02:35:50 thank you all right
02:36:05 mr chairman thank you for sitting late thank you and the story well straight into thanks are really due not just to us but more to the others who keep the keep the show on the road so to speak
02:36:16 keep the show on the road so to speak the stenographer and the ushers and all the other people who support our work so we thank them very much as well so that's it for today tomorrow we have more witnesses that's great yes and uh
02:36:27 more witnesses that's great yes and uh we shall therefore resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning please thank you 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you
02:36:39 you