Evidence from BBA Operations Director regarding the certification process, quality control, suspension and withdrawal of certificates, and the role of competent technical managers in signing off product certificates.
00:00:07 good afternoon everyone we are now going to start hearing evidence from a new witness mr brian moore and i'm going to begin by checking that he can see me and hear me
00:00:19 checking that he can see me and hear me clearly so that we can establish communication good afternoon mr moore good afternoon mr chairman i can hear you loud and clear
00:00:26 clear very good thank you very much no um i understand that you're going to take the oath is that right
00:00:36 rather than make an affirmation so my first question is do you have the testament there yes yes i do and on your screen you should
00:00:47 yes i do and on your screen you should have the words of the oath
00:00:50 have you got those yes i have thank you and then
00:00:54 and then i must ask you then take the testament in your right hand and repeat the words on the screen please i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give
00:01:05 evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth very good thank you very much indeed uh we have one or two small housekeeping matters we have to deal with before we actually put some questions to
00:01:16 before we actually put some questions to you first of all um can you confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence yes i confirm that thank you can you confirm that you have no documents or
00:01:27 confirm that you have no documents or other materials with you yes i confirm that thank you and finally can you confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device with you capable of
00:01:39 electronic device with you capable of receiving
00:01:40 receiving messages yes i confirm that very good thank you very much well i hope we shan't have problems with sound or vision but if we do we'll probably take a short break to let the technical support team sort them out
00:01:54 technical support team sort them out um we'll have a short break during the afternoon about 3 15 or whenever it's convenient but if you need an additional break at any stage will you just please say so and we'll do our best to
00:02:06 please say so and we'll do our best to accommodate you um before we start is there anything you'd like to ask me or anything you need to talk to my attention no thank you very good this therefore
00:02:18 no thank you very good this therefore i'm going to ask mr millett if you'd like to put some questions to you when you're already mr millet thank you very much mr chairman uh good afternoon mr moore can i start by asking you whether you
00:02:29 can i start by asking you whether you can hear me and see me clearly yes i can hear you and see you clearly thank you very much thank you very much for attending this public inquiry to give your evidence
00:02:40 public inquiry to give your evidence we are extremely grateful to you uh if you have any difficulties in understanding any of the questions i'm going to put to you or you'd like me to put the question again or in another way
00:02:51 again or in another way please don't hesitate to let me know can i also please ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who's also on this call can get down your evidence very clearly can i also advise you not
00:03:04 very clearly can i also advise you not please to nod or shake your head silently but to say yes or no as the case may be because that can go onto the transcript if you need a break at any time other than the times that the chairman has
00:03:15 than the times that the chairman has indicated we're likely to take a break then again please let us know and we can take a short break uh now you've made two witness statements to the inquiry i'd like to show you the first of those
00:03:26 i'd like to show you the first of those please and that is at bba
00:03:30 50159
00:03:35 looking at the screen in front of you is that the first page of your first statement
00:03:40 statement dated the 12th of november 2012 sorry 12th of november 2018 yes can you please turn to page 14
00:03:52 they're above the date of the 12th of november 2018 below the statement of truth is a signature is that yours yes have you read that statement
00:04:04 yes have you read that statement recently
00:04:06 recently yes can you confirm that the contents of that first statement are true yes now you've provided a second statement to the inquiry and we find
00:04:17 statement to the inquiry and we find that at bba three zeros one one zero nine seven can we look at that please
00:04:28 can we look at that please and you can see that the date of that is the 18th of november 2020 can you confirm that that is the first page of your second statement yes can you go to page four please
00:04:41 you'll see on that page just above the date a signature under the statement of truth is that your signature yes can you confirm that you've uh read this statement recently
00:04:52 this statement recently yes you confirmed that its statements are true
00:04:56 are true yes have you discussed the evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming on to this call no
00:05:05 call no i'm going to start with substantive questions by asking you about your background and role uh can i begin with paragraph one page one of your first statement please
00:05:16 statement please eba 50159 page one and you say that you're an executive director of the british board of agreement bba a non-profit distributing company which
00:05:29 a non-profit distributing company which operates in the construction products assessment certification testing and auditing sector i've been with the company since october 2014
00:05:37 2014 as the operations director until 2000 june 2018
00:05:41 june 2018 when i was appointed as the deputy chief executive officer in addition to my duties as operations director
00:05:49 director is it right to say that you left the bba in january 2020 yes why did you leave
00:05:58 to take up another appointment elsewhere and where do you work now i'm a director in a security company and was that the place for which you
00:06:10 and was that the place for which you left the bba yes uh if we go to paragraph two you say i am neither an engineer nor a scientist
00:06:20 scientist and my role is to provide senior management oversight within the company where necessary i seek and act upon specialist technical advice from expert colleagues and exceptionally from suitable outside
00:06:33 and exceptionally from suitable outside sources
00:06:34 sources could you just give us a pracei if you would please of your educational background
00:06:41 um i have a bachelor of science degree in social sciences i have a master of arts degree in human rights i have a postgraduate
00:06:55 human rights i have a postgraduate diploma in criminology and i have a master's degree in business administration and i'm currently a doctoral candidate
00:07:06 and i'm currently a doctoral candidate um
00:07:07 um in respect of certain aspects of law
00:07:13 and what aspects of law to do with whistleblowers right can you um explain your career history that led to you uh going to work for the bba
00:07:25 to you uh going to work for the bba in 2014
00:07:31 in 2014 immediately before i joined the bba i was
00:07:34 was a student studying the master's degree and master of arts degree that i referred to earlier on at the same time i was
00:07:45 earlier on at the same time i was conducting some consultancy work as a as a mentor trainer
00:07:49 trainer and also for a domestic violence charity in the private sector for the 30 years preceding that i was
00:08:00 30 years preceding that i was a police officer and investigator and senior manager in the service and i was interested in experiencing the private sector
00:08:12 private sector and i was approached by a head hunting organization keen to find an operations director at the bba
00:08:22 the bba and after some discussions with them and the organization i decided to accept an appointment in october 2014.
00:08:36 yes thank you mr chairman i i've had a message that my sister fan has disappeared from the screen i don't know whether that's general um it's it's true for me it may be true for everybody else
00:08:47 be true for everybody else um that's a problem yes i just checking that she's not just moved around the display but you're right i think she has disappeared
00:08:59 you're right i think she has disappeared uh right you see mr moore i shouldn't have said that i that we wouldn't have any technical problems it looks as though we may have one straight away well i think what we better do is to have a
00:09:10 i think what we better do is to have a short break and see if we can recover miss estefan because she i know will want to uh hear your evidence and she ought to be here so that she can
00:09:21 be here so that she can see it as it's given so um i'm going to suggest we'll not back you no well we'll break for um
00:09:32 not back you no well we'll break for um as short time as we can since this is the first break in your evidence i'm going to say this now but i'll probably say it again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're off
00:09:43 anything to do with it while you're off screen so to speak all right i understand and we'll come back as soon as we can right thank you
00:17:00 welcome back everyone i'm sorry about that break in the proceedings we think we've now got mr sister fan connected
00:17:07 connected well enough to continue so we're going to go on with mr moore's evidence but uh if it transpires that uh mr stefan
00:17:15 stefan can't receive well enough in order to understand the evidence then we may have to break again but for the moment we're going to carry on mr moore i see you there you can hear me
00:17:26 mr moore i see you there you can hear me and see me i hope yes i can good thank you well i apologize for that break in service so to speak
00:17:32 to speak um we'll but we think we are back up and running so we'll carry on and i'll ask mr millett to get on with the questions yes just with it thank you very much mr chairman um mr
00:17:43 thank you very much mr chairman um mr moore i wonder if you could go back please to your first witness statement to paragraph two on page one
00:17:49 page one and have that displayed on the screen in front of you and you see there and i read to you uh that you said where necessary i seek an act upon specialist technical advice from expert colleagues
00:18:00 from expert colleagues and exceptionally from suitable outside sources and in general at your time at the bba from whom did you seek expert advice internally
00:18:12 depending upon the field um it would be the the technically qualified departmental head
00:18:23 departmental head there was also a a consultant senior scientist
00:18:28 scientist the roving commission inside the bba um those would be the principal sources of
00:18:34 of advice that i would uh consult with and who was the uh the uh consultant senior scientist with the raving commission in 2014 when you
00:18:46 raving commission in 2014 when you started
00:18:47 started do you remember um
00:18:53 forgive me i've forgotten to say her name first name is john jonathan um i can't remember his name i'm afraid right and did it change did that uh the person occupying that role change
00:19:04 role change between then and your departure from the bba
00:19:08 bba no though in approximately 2018 uh a director with responsibility for technical affairs uh very senior engineer was
00:19:20 uh very senior engineer was recruited and appointed into the bba who again was the principal source of engineering advice and direction to to the business and what was their name
00:19:32 and what was their name and that was a mr paul valentine yes now looking back at your paragraph you also say and exceptionally from suitable outside sources during your time at the bba in general
00:19:43 during your time at the bba in general again from whom would you seek uh expert specialist advice from outside the bba was something called um tac which was
00:19:55 was something called um tac which was the technical advice committee um this was a a body of of uh distinguished people from outside the organization
00:20:06 the organization who at the discretion of the chief executive officer would be invited to form a body about whom
00:20:14 whom particular issues could be discussed i didn't have a huge amount of dealing with them myself but occasionally you'd be to refer significant projects i can remember one
00:20:26 significant projects i can remember one that i did discuss with them and did tack have any um day-to-day contact
00:20:32 contact on projects as they were ongoing with individuals more junior within the bba for example project managers
00:20:43 managers no i don't believe that was the case did tack have any fire expertise on it at any time
00:20:54 um i i can't specifically recall whether it did or it didn't turning to your your role and responsibilities and as operations director to whom did
00:21:05 and as operations director to whom did you report
00:21:08 i reported to the chief executive officer
00:21:13 and at 2014 who was that that was claire curtis thomas
00:21:21 and did that reporting line change between
00:21:24 between your arrival in 2014 and your departure
00:21:28 no and how many people under you did you manage
00:21:37 it varied slightly usually more than 100 people
00:21:43 and did all 100 reports to you directly in your role as operations director no there were four um departments
00:21:54 no there were four um departments one which um managed audit one which managed inspections and two which managed assessments
00:22:05 and two which managed assessments and certification but that was effectively one department split into two
00:22:11 two there was a test area which had its own operation responsibilities those were the
00:22:18 the the principal departments which reported to me
00:22:21 to me through a technically competent term head
00:22:24 head of of profession
00:22:28 and looking particularly at the two or perhaps combined single uh assessment and certification department from 2014 october 2014 who was it
00:22:41 from 2014 october 2014 who was it from that department who reported to you um mr brian chamberlin
00:22:51 was the first person post uh probably forgive me on dates probably throughout 2015 then uh mr simon rowe
00:23:02 then uh mr simon rowe throughout 2016 into 2017 and then um in 2018 to 19 um some restructuring took place
00:23:15 um some restructuring took place um and um a lady called um ramona took over as the the manager of that
00:23:23 that team ramona donnelly what responsibilities did you have as an operations director
00:23:32 so broadly it was to two-fold um the productivity of the staff um because it's a commercial organization
00:23:43 organization there were expectations about income had to be achieved through productive activity and secondly quality um the bba
00:23:54 quality um the bba has a regulator um and is assessed against a standard called 17065 i believe which which had a so there's a
00:24:05 which which had a so there's a quantitative element and a qualitative element and then from approximately april 2015 i was appointed to the board of the bba and thereafter of course had
00:24:16 of the bba and thereafter of course had the normal fiduciary duties of a director
00:24:20 director um at a more strategic level to to you know deliver the success of the business
00:24:27 business um etc at that board level and what did your job as operations director involve on a day-to-day basis can you give us a appraisee of that
00:24:39 can you give us a appraisee of that so usually would be sort of aligning resource to demand and the the the issues of um problems or difficulties that staff
00:24:50 um problems or difficulties that staff wanted to consult me about um operationally um particularly during 2015 and into 2016 i began to take an interest in
00:25:02 i began to take an interest in intelligence about the industry and making sure that anything that related to poor practice in the industry that was coming to our attention
00:25:14 coming to our attention was um brought to my attention so i could decide how best to deal with it so summarizing that aligning resource to demand
00:25:22 demand achieving productivity problem solving trying to identify risks and and just maintain
00:25:29 maintain um an efficient and effective approach to delivering the business of the bba yes thank you now um we've heard in the evidence of prayer nakomo that when a certificate was suspended or
00:25:41 that when a certificate was suspended or withdrawn
00:25:42 withdrawn it would be passed to a team manager or head of approvals or he said operations manager for sign off
00:25:51 off and then a director for for final sign off
00:25:54 off does that accord with your recollection yes um that's that's sounds quite reasonable um during 2014
00:26:05 quite reasonable um during 2014 and 15 maybe in the 16 there was a company secretary um who's whose role was to uh to to deal with signing off the final signature if you will on behalf of the
00:26:17 signature if you will on behalf of the ceo
00:26:18 ceo um for suspended or withdrawn certificates were you ever involved in the process of signing off a suspension or
00:26:29 of signing off a suspension or withdrawal as a certificate of a certificate during your time
00:26:33 your time as operations director yes which certificate specifically can you recall
00:26:43 recall i i can't recall um which specific certificate was there one or was there more than one i would say there was more than one right
00:26:52 right were there many
00:26:55 not not many um over a four to five year period
00:27:00 period um double figures possibly not not um common but not rare in the main in your experience at
00:27:11 rare in the main in your experience at the time
00:27:12 the time what were the what would have been or what were the reasons for the bba suspending or withdrawing those certificates
00:27:22 there was a significant um deviation from the expectations what a client should be
00:27:29 should be be doing some form of potential abuse um if there was excuse me if there was intelligence about malpractice or that the certificate was no longer in
00:27:40 or that the certificate was no longer in conformity for some significant reason and that could not be remediated promptly or properly so it was normally a relatively serious thing one can imagine
00:27:53 relatively serious thing one can imagine the
00:27:53 the the commercial effects upon some companies of having their certificate suspended and withdrawn i think due process you know you suspend first
00:28:03 first um and then subsequently if matters aren't remediated move on to withdrawal i think i can't remember too many cases of a certificate being
00:28:13 being withdrawn right from the very start um yeah thank you now you became uh i think deputy chief executive officer in 2018. is that right
00:28:25 executive officer in 2018. is that right that's correct and what did that role involve and the the bba was like many organizations undertaking a change process
00:28:36 undertaking a change process um trying to restructure modernize it was opening an office in a in other parts of the country and so the the drawn time of the chief
00:28:48 and so the the drawn time of the chief executive officer um whilst we were doing all this and the normal day-to-day activities of the business
00:28:55 business meant that she needed a more substantive deputy
00:28:59 deputy and that was was my role there was just extra things going on in the company that
00:29:04 that were bearing down on the senior management team and it was decided to have
00:29:08 have a deputy to support the ceo when she was not available did you report to her yes yes and what additional responsibilities came with that role
00:29:20 came with that role um so largely about change management my role was to give particular focus to the the change of structure the modernization program
00:29:32 modernization program taking all that stuff forward it had quite a heavy an additional burden um and it also coincided um of course post post this terrible tragedy
00:29:43 tragedy that the bba was very active in trying to improve things in the industry
00:29:51 industry which required the ceo to be elsewhere quite a lot of the time did the change process begin after the grenfell tower fire
00:30:02 grenfell tower fire um no um the organization was always trying trying to change to improve
00:30:10 improve um i think the formalization of the process
00:30:14 process so oh well you might be right thinking about it um um the the actual structure you know the the plan
00:30:21 the plan was probably put into place circa 2018 but it had been run up you know the run-up to it was before that and approaching the governing board for sign
00:30:32 approaching the governing board for sign off was probably 2018 but there's quite a lot of activity going on before then were you ever involved in the actual certification of products certified by the bba
00:30:44 of products certified by the bba or was your role a purely managerial one um i i didn't do any physical um assessments of of products or systems no i wasn't qualified to do that
00:30:56 i wasn't qualified to do that were you ever asked to sign off any certificates or check any drafting yes and i was asked to do that when uh in the absence of the ceo
00:31:09 when uh in the absence of the ceo um that on behalf of the company um to take responsibility for the fact we had completed our our process to our satisfaction and to add
00:31:19 add my name um to the certificate in her absence
00:31:23 absence and when you did that did you yourself undertake any checks or spot checks of the underlying data to verify for yourself that what you were signing was true and accurate
00:31:35 was true and accurate um if i if i had any queries i would i would want to see the staff members involved
00:31:43 involved um i can't remember what used to particularly catch my eye or ear if anything
00:31:48 anything but i i could i could invite uh and seek any views that i thought appropriate based upon the certificate um usually how long what if things had
00:31:59 um usually how long what if things had taken a long time why they taking a long time
00:32:03 time etc so i i had um discretion to ask uh i did and but i i did not go and bring big bundles of documents into my
00:32:13 into my office and pour through them all um i wanted to satisfy myself that uh that our process had been followed um but i i never to the best of my
00:32:25 but i i never to the best of my recollection um got hold of core big bundles of core documents
00:32:30 documents and were the people who brought you these certificates to sign in your capacity you've described brian chamberlain simon rowe and ramona donnelly during the respective dates you've
00:32:41 the respective dates you've given us um if but not not all would be signed by any one of the three mr chamberlain um when he was no longer the head of
00:32:54 um when he was no longer the head of that department he moved into a technical advisory role um alongside the chief scientist um gentleman that i mentioned earlier so he too
00:33:04 too would um have an expert role as as as an additional head of a department because he had unique knowledge and skills so
00:33:14 skills so sometimes he would sign certificates as being the competent technical manager and it may not be mr rowe or miss donnelly who would sign those
00:33:26 or miss donnelly who would sign those who normally would bring the unsigned final certificate to the chief executive or in your case as deputy uh the operations director to sign
00:33:37 uh the operations director to sign there was a another department that that specialized in in in the preparation of these certificates um were grammar word smithing um the layout
00:33:48 were grammar word smithing um the layout the
00:33:48 the any photographs and called the publications department and they had a to and fro um
00:33:56 role between the technical team in terms of making sure that all aspects of the certificate have been covered off and they they had a checklist which i
00:34:07 and they they had a checklist which i think was called a traveler log um of things that were that were required and ticked off and who had who had approved which and and what would be delivered to me
00:34:19 would be delivered to me would via by this publication department would be
00:34:22 would be the draft certificate and this checklist called the travel log and this publications department would that get involved in the primary drafting of the certificate by the project manager
00:34:34 certificate by the project manager responsible for it i don't think the primary drafting um because quite quite a lot of the the document was in some ways templated you know there was footers and headers etc
00:34:46 know there was footers and headers etc um but but no the the project the technical people were responsible for the technical content of the document um because the publication staff were not technically qualified
00:34:57 not technically qualified um to do that that they would just make sure the formatting and then there's a fair bit of tuning and throwing to the client as well you know the client doesn't like something the photograph is the wrong
00:35:08 something the photograph is the wrong one or
00:35:09 one or somebody's names changed et cetera so that so there would be some chewing and throwing
00:35:15 throwing between the bba and clients via this publications department but they had no remit to to make technical decisions or make technical alterations to the
00:35:26 alterations to the certificates yes i want to turn next to your knowledge and experience were you required to have any knowledge of construction materials in order to be able to perform your role
00:35:37 in order to be able to perform your role either as operations director or as deputy ceo no did you have any expertise or experience in respect of the certification of building products
00:35:49 certification of building products no were you required to have any knowledge of uk building regulations
00:35:56 i wasn't required to but of course as part of my role you know every day i was coming in contact with this and of course gained um some knowledge but i i did not
00:36:07 gained um some knowledge but i i did not appear before the inquiry today claiming to have
00:36:10 to have technical knowledge um such that i could i would like to argue with a scientist or an engineer did did you become familiar with approved document b
00:36:21 approved document b uh uh forming part of the building regulations uh approved document b concerning external fire spread on buildings um could could you repeat the first part
00:36:33 um could could you repeat the first part of your question i'm sorry because i put it slightly differently did you during your time at the bba become familiar with approved document b which concerns external fire spread on buildings
00:36:44 buildings become familiar i certainly looked at it and read it
00:36:50 but i would not claim that i had a deep understanding of all its applications and implications but i i did look at it read it and and tried to assimilate it
00:37:02 tried to assimilate it where it was relevant to what to what i was being asked to consider if anything yes did you ever have any formal training on the contents of approved document b no would it
00:37:15 no would it would it follow that you didn't have any training
00:37:18 training on the uk national standard testing regime the bs 476 testing regime no i did not have formal training do you
00:37:29 no i did not have formal training do you have any
00:37:30 have any uh knowledge gained from experience about that regime as as as my previous answer it was yes i did read it i did look at it i tried to
00:37:41 it i tried to to understand it and of course it would be it would be being discussed regularly in my presence um particularly um
00:37:49 um if there was some issue of the day regarding it but i always would take the advice of those i believed had the expertise i would challenge you know my job was
00:38:02 i would challenge you know my job was was to
00:38:03 was to you know is there a risk here it's the challenges to ask those simple questions why and how um etc and elicit logical response where
00:38:14 and elicit logical response where possible
00:38:15 possible can you remember how soon after you joined the bba in october 2014 you read the british standard 476
00:38:26 you read the british standard 476 testing regime
00:38:29 um it certainly wasn't within the the first
00:38:33 first certainly wasn't in 2014 having joined there in october um certainly from say the christmas period at the end of 14 onwards um i i was yes of course trying
00:38:46 onwards um i i was yes of course trying to assimilate myself into the role right do you remember what it was that prompted you to go and look at
00:38:58 bs476
00:39:04 i can't remember anything specific i don't think there was a specific um event um or or issue um it was just you know it was it was just something i felt i should know more
00:39:15 just something i felt i should know more about
00:39:15 about um there was also other things it wasn't just about fire um the the another major area was of course
00:39:23 course um things that could fall off buildings um
00:39:29 um wind loading and various things like this which were also significant durability um so i just tried to read my my way into it but i can't remember to your question i can't remember a specific
00:39:41 question i can't remember a specific incident or event that took me to i must urgently read this document i see and does the same also apply in relation to the european fire testing and classification regime
00:39:54 fire testing and classification regime yes i think it'd be a super approach um there was the british um of forgive me not british the england and wales
00:40:01 and wales um approach uh and there was um it wasn't it wasn't the same but it was it was
00:40:08 it was acceptable um under the the euro classifications um they were different tests but but they were they they each could satisfy the requirements
00:40:19 requirements of the approved um of the approved documents
00:40:23 documents within the building regulations as i as i recall i was interested to try and understand that better yes you were interested to try and understand that better when exactly
00:40:34 understand that better when exactly to the best of your recollection did you become interested to try to understand that better
00:40:42 i i can't forgive me i can't put a date on it
00:40:45 on it but it was just part of my role um there are many there are many things about assessment testing audit inspection uh that i wanted to know more
00:40:56 inspection uh that i wanted to know more about
00:40:57 about right did you do research on the side in your own time into the uh uk national testing england wales scotland northern ireland
00:41:09 england wales scotland northern ireland and the european testing for fire i can't i i i was working at least six days a week um long days and i can't say
00:41:22 um long days and i can't say whether it was in my own time or or work time um
00:41:25 time um i was trying to assimilate this but at some period during the working week um i was just just trying to become more knowledgeable thank you now um uh
00:41:40 did you become aware looking at the european regime of the meaning of the classifications a through to f um a being at the top end of the range
00:41:51 um a being at the top end of the range and f being at the bottom yes um again forgiving quite a long time ago but yes that clearly there was there was a differentiation between them now
00:42:02 differentiation between them now i'd like to ask you one or two questions about training more specifically can we please go to
00:42:14 bba3010762
00:42:21 um this is a bundle of presentations which we understand were given at the bba and you can see that they bear the bba logo on page one uh you can see the
00:42:34 on page one uh you can see the presentation entitled fire and if we look at page five we go down to page five please we can see what appears to be a handout
00:42:45 we can see what appears to be a handout that goes with this presentation at the top you could see the date 2011. now it's very small on your screen mr moore i'd like it to be expanded so that you can see it more
00:42:56 be expanded so that you can see it more more clearly can you see at the top yes uh it says file presentation 2011 updated december 2012. yes
00:43:08 updated december 2012. yes yes yes uh just pausing here is this the document you're familiar with
00:43:18 i've got no specific recollection of it very well let's see how we go if we go to page seven we can see another presentation and you can see in
00:43:29 another presentation and you can see in the top
00:43:29 the top left hand corner a red and blue
00:43:35 logo triangle in the red part it says fire safety part b and fire presentation and in the blue part it says john denier principal scientist nisha sharma project
00:43:46 principal scientist nisha sharma project manager and tech coordinator fire 26th of april 2016. uh is that a document or the beginnings of a document that
00:43:57 of a document that ring a bell with you
00:44:00 well firstly can i just alluding to a previous answer mr denyer is that senior scientist i was referring to forgive me um i had a moment where i forgot his surname that's helpful prompt
00:44:11 surname that's helpful prompt um and i was aware that um nisha sharma had this liaison role between the bba and one of the one of the test um fire test
00:44:25 one of the one of the test um fire test establishments i think might have been x over so so this seems more familiar but but i can't be sure that i have i have seen this document before it's possible but i can't recall
00:44:38 before it's possible but i can't recall it
00:44:39 it let's go to page 15 and we can see there and we may have to have that blown up as well but page 15 you can see at the top it says
00:44:48 it says fire safety part b and fire presentation 2016
00:44:53 2016 and it's said to be part of a fundamentals training program which commenced in february 2016 all pac staff with less than three years experience at the bba
00:45:04 experience at the bba are required to attend in addition to staff working in the area under consideration
00:45:10 and then it says this presentation has been extended to include fire which was provided to all pac staff as part of the training sessions held during 2011. now mr moore i don't think you were well
00:45:22 now mr moore i don't think you were well you weren't at the bba in 2011 do you know who would have had to have attended
00:45:28 attended the presentations in 2011 and 2012.
00:45:36 um i don't know now you were operations director
00:45:41 director when the 2016 training was introduced weren't you yes yes do you know what prompted the bba to institute this training program
00:45:58 no i don't know or or i cannot remember i'm not sure which do you know what is meant in this document by pac staff yes
00:46:09 staff yes that's the so that's the assessment and certification staff product assessment and certification these are the stuff the project managers uh principally
00:46:23 the project managers uh principally that refers to yes i see do you remember whether you attended this presentation yourself um
00:46:34 i don't have a specific recollection but that front sheet um certainly miss sharma's role does look really quite familiar to me um but i can't be sure
00:46:46 um but i can't be sure uh now you say ms sharma's role you mentioned earlier on um that she was connected and maybe i misunderstood this but she was connected in some way with x over
00:46:59 in some way with x over yes um yes from from uh recollection um the bba paid a small or modest
00:47:10 um the bba paid a small or modest retainer to x over um and through so so if there are inquiries or generic
00:47:21 inquiries or generic requirements outside of of project management specifically um through ms sharma was the liaison point
00:47:29 point around that so the expectation as i as i recall it was if a project manager had had an issue generically about fire or the chief scientist um
00:47:40 scientist um ms sharma was the conduit to approach the firehouse for this generic advice it was a an ongoing um i think been going for a number of years uh a small retainer was paid for
00:47:53 uh a small retainer was paid for for advice um if you could go back please to page 12 there's just something on that page i just want to pick up with you
00:48:04 pick up with you at the foot of page uh 12 uh
00:48:12 uh 12 uh you can see that there is
00:48:18 uh forgive me a moment uh a set of details uh of fire test organizations and there you have x over warrington this is the bottom that you've got it
00:48:29 this is the bottom that you've got it there andy kim's and bre global stephen howard and then underneath that it says the bba has a consultancy agreement with warrington whereby under a monthly fee arrangement
00:48:40 whereby under a monthly fee arrangement advice is available free of individual charge
00:48:42 charge as a result warrington should always be consulted before bre although bre can carry out certain tests that warrington do not offer there is a bba stroke x over warrington query form
00:48:54 query form which is available on the intranet under technical forum tab at the reference library this document should be completed as fully as possible and sent to nisha sharma for forwarding to xavier for their opinion now that's
00:49:05 opinion now that's that's there does that does that accurately summarize the arrangements that the bba had at this time april 2016 with those two organizations that that seems what you've just read
00:49:17 that that seems what you've just read out and what i've just read it seems consists with my memory of of of that time because i think i articulated something not as concise as that but quite similar i think yes yes and was that the arrangement or
00:49:30 yes yes and was that the arrangement or those the standing arrangements uh that existed when you arrived at the bba in october 2014 do you remember
00:49:40 i'm not sure i can't be certain right and do you know what the arrangements were with the bre
00:49:54 what the arrangements were with the bre so if somebody wanted advice from the vre
00:49:58 vre what arrangements would govern the giving and taking of that advice
00:50:03 well you've noted earlier that when i relied upon my memory i didn't have reference to bre global in my memory
00:50:11 my memory um i only have a recollection of x over warrington so i am not sure about the bre club even having read it now i'm not sure whether that was part of
00:50:22 i'm not sure whether that was part of the arrangements when i joined the bba or subsequently so i'm not clear about that
00:50:31 right are you able to tell us anything about what arrangements might have existed as between the bba and the bre whereby the bba
00:50:42 the bba and the bre whereby the bba could take advice from the bre particularly stephen howard who's identified here as the contact point
00:50:52 no i mean they they were on the same um location as us but i don't i'm not aware of formal or financial um a contractual relationship
00:51:06 financial um a contractual relationship between
00:51:07 between the bba and bre regarding fire as i've stated i did remember this consultant it's better worded than i just explained but a consultancy agreement
00:51:18 but a consultancy agreement i've called it a small retainer i remember that but i'm not aware of a similar financial arrangement contractual with bre global
00:51:29 bre global now thank you more broadly on the subject of training during your time at the bba what were the
00:51:36 the were there any training requirements uh or any regime in place for project managers
00:51:43 um when a project manager so the numbers were relatively small of project managers in the teams but probably 20 or so 20 plus staff in each team
00:51:57 or so 20 plus staff in each team so we didn't have large influxes of staff and large out outgoings of of people leaving so the approach was um when someone was
00:52:08 so the approach was um when someone was inducted into the bba uh their qualifications their background their skill set and experience um as against the vacancy where it arose tried to recruit to that position
00:52:19 tried to recruit to that position and then the process was to have um hands-on side-by-side training next to a more experienced peer and manager um to assess their their
00:52:30 and manager um to assess their their progress
00:52:32 progress um now that was the position from when i don't 2014 um a more in approximately 2017 um a hr manager with a training
00:52:45 um a hr manager with a training background uh was was recruited and in 2018 or 19 an actual learning and development manager was inducted again this was to more
00:52:59 was inducted again this was to more formalize the training of staff as they're onboarded but for the bulk of my time at the bba it was um hands-on support to an individual joining i see so in
00:53:11 individual joining i see so in a word learning on the job yes largely um the first year however um the first year or so um
00:53:22 um the first year or so um was was pretty much predominantly giving over to
00:53:26 over to um learning so so over time this over year two the balance of of them understanding the background uh the norms the the way the
00:53:38 uh the norms the the way the organization worked they gradually moved into a more operational capacity so certainly the first six months and probably up to a year the balance was more towards their
00:53:49 the balance was more towards their induction understanding of of their of the environment and the products that they would be working in and what about team managers and technical heads or heads of approval did they have
00:53:59 they have ongoing or continuing professional uh educational development um the bba offered um anybody everybody um
00:54:11 anybody everybody um charterships um by that i mean affiliations to professional bodies for ongoing training and there was a budget set aside each year
00:54:22 year to pay the fees um for for staff you'll you'll you'll probably know if you've seen the email photos of bba staff normally there's a fellowship or a charter ship so so the
00:54:34 fellowship or a charter ship so so the bba was investing in their professional chartered development as as they went along um in in terms of management experience um yeah when i arrived there i was not
00:54:47 um yeah when i arrived there i was not convinced that the managers had had formal management training so an external provider of management training was was identified i think in
00:54:59 training was was identified i think in 2015
00:55:01 2015 into 2016 to provide a more structured approach to learning requirements for managers right going back to an answer you gave us
00:55:12 going back to an answer you gave us before about uh project managers people coming into the organization in a junior role yeah you you said that uh over time over year two uh
00:55:23 over time over year two uh they gradually moved into a more operational capacity but during year one that was you said pretty much predominantly given over to learning would you expect a project manager who
00:55:36 would you expect a project manager who had
00:55:36 had uh joined uh the organization in say september 2014 and the cladding department in november 2014 to be given
00:55:47 2014 to be given the job of reviewing an existing certificate uh as one of the first jobs uh in that role
00:55:56 role um again it depends it depends on the individual and their background depends upon the
00:56:03 upon the relative complexity of the case it depends how much um side-by-side support they had from someone but generally was expected to be
00:56:12 to be generally um a relatively you know induction based um easy steps approach as their knowledge grows about
00:56:24 approach as their knowledge grows about the products and the organizations so of course there are always exceptions but that was the the approach about getting people inducted and trained which was the norm would it be normal
00:56:35 which was the norm would it be normal for somebody to be given the task of project manager reviewing an outstanding certificate for a product within the first month or two of arriving at the bba
00:56:48 again it would depend upon the individual and their experience and the complexity of the project and the support that they had around with them to do
00:56:59 that they had around with them to do that but generally generally they expected that they would do simple tasks that would be to train them generally you know if there are exceptions then they would be exceptions young science graduate
00:57:12 exceptions young science graduate uh in their second job uh maybe three years out of university uh in that situation would you expect them to be given the project manager role or
00:57:21 role or reviewing a an outstanding certificate within the first few months of their arrival at the bba um well again for the reason i said that that wouldn't be ideal um but again it
00:57:34 that wouldn't be ideal um but again it will depend um it will depend on a number of circumstances but you know getting people to do things beyond their capacity or capabilities is is is not
00:57:46 capacity or capabilities is is is not what any
00:57:47 what any responsible organization would prefer to do
00:57:51 do during your tenure at the bba was there any specific training given either internally or externally to uh project management staff or team managers
00:58:01 managers on the building regulations the approved documents
00:58:04 documents fire testing or the the writing of certificates um yes
00:58:15 um yes um the as i mentioned with the the principal scientists the heads of department the team managers would
00:58:26 the team managers would would arrange training events training days for their staff as as they thought would be needed in that team
00:58:36 that team um so yeah there was a lot of time at the bba
00:58:40 the bba given over to to people doing training um a considerable amount um giving over to this
00:58:48 to this was there a formal requirement for staff to maintain cpd continuing professional development on a periodic basis such as annual um where they had um applied for and had
00:59:02 um where they had um applied for and had undertaken a charter ship or a fellowship which is the which was the route that the bba encouraged then yes what was that requirement it would vary according to the fellows
00:59:15 it would vary according to the fellows the charter ship in order it's my understanding i may be wrong and that
00:59:20 that um there are certain requirements that one has to fulfill to to maintain a charter ship or or a fellowship i see so the training that they got would depend on whether they were
00:59:32 would depend on whether they were chartered or fellows of other organizations not wholly um but that was certainly a part of
00:59:40 part of the training environment that they're working in and they say it would depend on on their skills um
00:59:48 skills um their experience the the matters they had a particular interest in or person for
00:59:54 for their managers assessment of their capabilities the head of department's view and then trying to um provide them the support the training support that they needed
01:00:05 support that they needed yes but going back to my question was there actually a formal requirement for staff to maintain cpd on an annual basis or any basis
01:00:16 um
01:00:19 well outside my answer no right now valentina amarozzo gave evidence yesterday to the inquiry and she she told us that when she started her
01:00:30 she told us that when she started her role as project manager in september 2014
01:00:33 2014 there was no formal training in respect of fire engineering it was she said primarily uh learning on the job
01:00:42 job the reference for that is day 106 of page 13
01:00:45 page 13 line 15. um do you agree with that
01:00:51 um yes i've got no reason to to doubt that so it's right is it that project managers such as valentina and maurizio were given no
01:01:02 maurizio were given no formal training in respect of fire performance uh at that time late 2014
01:01:20 i i agree with that did that change later
01:01:28 the reason why the reason why i'm pausing slightly is is that um the the bbas did not you know was not a fire
01:01:39 did not you know was not a fire test establishment um we did not claim as far as as far as i am aware that we we were this was a field of expertise
01:01:50 we were this was a field of expertise the requirement was for the client or the issue to go to a professional uh fire test laboratory and bring back evidence
01:02:01 evidence um but but i did expect that the bba project managers and their managers would be able to interpret the evidence that they received from a
01:02:12 the evidence that they received from a fire test house
01:02:18 and did you expect that bba project managers and their managers would know what to look for when assessing the truth of a claim to fire
01:02:30 assessing the truth of a claim to fire performance that the client wanted to make
01:02:33 make in its certificate
01:02:38 yes i i would expect i would expect that um that there should be a norm um and the the role of the project manager managers to assess whether the
01:02:50 manager managers to assess whether the evidence that's been offered and provided
01:02:52 provided satisfies the requirements of the norm so i would expect project managers and their managers and the scientists and the chief engineer
01:03:03 the scientists and the chief engineer um between them to be able to to come to a
01:03:06 a come to a a decision like that right yeah sorry no no sorry did you finish your answer i i cut across you i think yeah well i think i pretty much finished
01:03:17 yeah well i think i pretty much finished um finished my answer so to that extent i think we can agree that you
01:03:23 that you did expect that staff members in those roles would have fire expertise uh to that to that degree
01:03:34 fire expertise to that degree um to be able to to read a fire certificate and understand what it was saying about
01:03:45 and understand what it was saying about the product that the project manager is assessing yes yes thank you and does it follow from that
01:03:55 from that that a project manager drafting an original certificate whether it's truly original or whether it's a confirmation certificate or a project manager reviewing a certificate
01:04:07 certificate would know how to go about assessing whether a claim for fire performance to be made in that certificate
01:04:18 certificate uh was justified
01:04:23 yes yes now can i then just ask you one or two questions about the vba is it right to say the bba operates as an independent self-funding
01:04:35 an independent self-funding non-profit distributing company yes that's correct i think it's limited by guarantee isn't it yes yes did the bba rely on its income
01:04:46 yes yes did the bba rely on its income from clients entering into contracts to obtain certificates yes and also from payment of annual maintenance fees in respect to those certificates
01:04:58 certificates yes so is it right to describe the relationship between the bba on the one hand
01:05:03 hand and its clients on the other as commercial
01:05:10 yes um that's correct in your time at the bba was there a code of conduct or other set of guidelines which contained principles of impartiality and how to deal with conflicts of
01:05:22 and how to deal with conflicts of interest
01:05:25 um yes the you you cast the requirement from the uk uk accreditation service and this standard
01:05:34 standard i think i mentioned 1706 required this and the duties upon the company directors as well uh to avoid only personal conflicts of interest but also
01:05:45 interest but also conflicts of interest for the company were
01:05:49 were were part of our roles responsibilities uh something that i took particularly seriously
01:05:54 seriously yes looking at uh career progression for a moment was there any criteria for pay increases
01:06:05 was there any criteria for pay increases for
01:06:05 for staff at the project manager team leader level um
01:06:14 the combination of things it became more formalized later on 2017 no 2018 2019 but it was a combination of um their experience um
01:06:28 their experience um their the breadth of work that they could take on um were they very niche and narrow that could be a good thing or could they handle a variety of different products
01:06:39 different products so there was no bonus scheme there was nothing to incentivize in that way it tended to be experience time progression and the amount of responsibility that the person
01:06:51 responsibility that the person adopted through their experience tended to be linked to an annual review of their of their salary an assessment by their managers yes i see where individual staff members such as project managers or
01:07:03 such as project managers or or team leaders uh set uh targets of any kind
01:07:09 kind um in terms of their productive time um yes an amount of hours per year which was expected to be productive i.e
01:07:20 which was expected to be productive i.e fee earning or undertaking other important issues yeah and how many hours per year would a project manager be expected to
01:07:32 would a project manager be expected to uh clock up again it would vary according to the individual and their experience and the the kind of work that was in the team
01:07:42 team um if a new person as i said before maybe a small number of hours uh in their first year the very top-end people um seven or
01:07:53 the very top-end people um seven or eight hundred hours of productive time um for earning time per year in in a rate so in other words in a range from a small number up to
01:08:05 small number up to hundreds of hours yes and it was your job i think as you told us earlier to make sure
01:08:10 make sure that your staff were as productive as as reasonably possible yeah the word yes the operable had been reasonable um yes yes now you mentioned earlier uh
01:08:23 um yes yes now you mentioned earlier uh an interest in whistleblowing uh uh if is it if a member of staff during your time at the bba had become aware of a problem uh which they had come across during the
01:08:35 uh which they had come across during the course of their their work was there a procedure in place at the bba to be able to report that problem without fearing any repercussions and there was there was yes a formal
01:08:47 and there was there was yes a formal whistleblowing policy in the in the business um through the hr department but a range of other
01:08:56 other um approaches as well um to make sure that these kinds of things were escalated if it was causing concern to staff
01:09:05 staff and given that you were operations director would you have been involved in the reporting and investigation process arising out of such concerns would very much depend what it was if it was uh something about me
01:09:17 was uh something about me then no but it was more it was more generic than that um then then of course i
01:09:23 i i would like to be um but a judgment would be made about how best to to proceed um my but i i remember my my main concern was external whistle
01:09:34 my my main concern was external whistle blowing
01:09:35 blowing uh which i'd like to say more about if if the inquiry would would uh would allow me at some point but but uh whistleblowing would be an internal dimension as well do you remember whether any concerns
01:09:47 do you remember whether any concerns were ever raised either through the whistleblowing procedure or otherwise about the certification of acm aluminium composite material panels or insulation materials
01:10:02 panels or insulation materials um
01:10:07 yes yes i do could you tell us a little bit more about that please yes a member of the sales staff um this would have been
01:10:20 um this would have been after the the fatal fire at grenfell tower and probably into 2018 a member of the sales staff
01:10:31 2018 a member of the sales staff um raised concerns um about his understanding of of panels and and the bba's approach there too
01:10:44 there too yes i see was that in relation to a ucas visit
01:10:49 yes putting two and two together a ucas visit arose fairly shortly after the the colleague or the former colleague um raises concerns so
01:11:02 colleague um raises concerns so um i i hope i'm not jumping to conclusions say the two things were linked
01:11:06 linked but um but it was temporarily close to a new cast visit yes i see did that member of staff challenge or criticize the bba's position relating to
01:11:17 criticize the bba's position relating to the reyno bond bba certificate yes and what was the nature of that challenge um again i can't remember the the specifics of it
01:11:28 specifics of it um it was dealt with by another director um the the commercial director um and and the the head of approvals uh mr alban
01:11:41 the head of approvals uh mr alban met with this member of staff to discuss to discuss his concerns um the outcome that was fed back to me was there was a difference of view
01:11:52 was there was a difference of view um about uh the bba's approach and um yeah you know the more experienced the scientist uh mr alban
01:12:03 alban um had listened carefully and given a view
01:12:07 view the the non-technical sales person had a different view um and i i think the the outcome was that um you know the the scientist view
01:12:18 that um you know the the scientist view was reasonable um and matters matters were left there though i think matters were escalated by the colleague elsewhere possibly to the media
01:12:28 media right you say there was a difference of view very briefly can you tell us what that difference of view was i can't recall
01:12:36 recall the detail of it and i'm not sure i was ever really really closely cited on the detail
01:12:41 detail um you remember what mr album said to you
01:12:49 um i can't remember he had that they had sat down for a length of time with a with a colleague director there they had exchanged you know the concerns
01:13:01 they had exchanged you know the concerns views
01:13:02 views what the concerns were uh and mr alban you said
01:13:05 you said i can't see merit in in these concerns he felt the colleague didn't understand the um application of of the norm um to the situation
01:13:19 um to the situation can you give us even an outline the basic gist of the point i can't i'm sorry what was the topic was it far was it uh water ingress what was it um if
01:13:32 uh water ingress what was it um if if it was related to acm it must have been in relation to fire i'm i'm deducing it certainly wasn't durability it must have been something about fire but i'm not
01:13:44 but i'm not certain yes thank you mr chairman uh and then we've had a bit of an interruption but it's it's a convenient moment for a break because i'm about to go on to a reasonably lengthy single topic
01:13:55 reasonably lengthy single topic yes well it would be sensible to have a break at this point wouldn't it um mr moore i did warn you we're going to have a short break middle of the afternoon
01:14:03 afternoon we will come back and resume at 25 to 4 please
01:14:09 in the meantime i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything
01:14:14 anything relating to it all right well listen mr chairman yes see you in a moment thank you very much
01:30:05 welcome back everyone we are now ready to continue with mr moore's evidence mr moore can i just check that you can see me and hear me clearly yes i can good thank you very much well
01:30:17 yes i can good thank you very much well then
01:30:18 then i take it you're ready to continue so i'll ask mr millet to uh carry on with the questions yes mr millet yes thank you mr chairman um mr moore i would like now to turn to
01:30:29 um mr moore i would like now to turn to a different topic namely cool firm k15 insulation manufactured by kingspan and i'm going to ask you some questions
01:30:38 questions about issue one of the bba certificate number zero eight four five eight two dated the 27th of october 2008.
01:30:50 of october 2008. uh can we please have that up on the screen it's at bba
01:31:00 6038
01:31:06 now you can see what's from what's on the screen in front of you that this is that certificate uh and the date
01:31:13 date at the bot is at the bottom of the screen together with the signatures of those who approved it at the time uh just say that you and i are clear at the outset of course you only joined
01:31:26 at the outset of course you only joined the bba in october 2014 and so you can have had no involvement in any aspect of the assessment or certification of this product in 2008 or the review of this
01:31:37 in 2008 or the review of this certificate in the years that followed that must be right wasn't it that's correct yes uh when did you first see this certificate
01:31:55 um i can't remember certainly um at the time when the inquiry was requesting information uh from the bba
01:32:08 requesting information uh from the bba which would be after the inquiry was established that put them into 2019 the reason i'm asking you questions about it or i'm going to is that you've offered
01:32:19 i'm going to is that you've offered evidence about it to the inquiry in your second witness statement of the 18th of november 2020 which we're going to come to so that's why i'm asking you about it now just looking at the document on the
01:32:31 now just looking at the document on the screen you can see that it's a certificate for kingspan k15 if we scroll to the top of the page you'll see the product
01:32:42 it's kill them k15 range screen installation board and under the heading you can see that there's a blue shaded box that gives the product scope can you see that
01:32:54 that yes i can it says this certificate relates
01:32:57 relates to cool them k15 range screen insulation board
01:33:00 board a rigid phenolic board with foil composite facings for use as external thermal insulation on new and existing steel frame or masonry walls the board
01:33:11 steel frame or masonry walls the board is used in domestic and non-domestic buildings in conjunction with masonry or weather type ventilated cladding systems
01:33:20 systems does that uh description accord with your understanding of this product
01:33:27 and can i make it clear that that my knowledge of this this product is is only that which i put into
01:33:34 into my witness statement my my witness statement in november 2020 was to to act my role was to act as
01:33:45 was to to act my role was to act as the locator collater and provider to the inquiry of materially wanted in its in its requests uh that they wish to see
01:33:57 in its requests uh that they wish to see so i to the best of my knowledge i haven't expressed a technical opinion about the product at all and i'm not convinced i'm qualified to do so so if i can be clear that i understood
01:34:09 so if i can be clear that i understood my role was to make material available to the inquiry rather than to try to give a technical opinion about it
01:34:17 it i understand that and i'm grateful for that clarification and we are going to look at your statement on this subject um but i should just say that the reason i'm asking you mr moore rather than anybody else is
01:34:28 mr moore rather than anybody else is that nobody of whom we've asked detailed questions about the certificate at the bba has been able to give any uh answers at all uh apart from you uh and that the
01:34:40 uh apart from you uh and that the answers
01:34:41 answers uh that you've given uh are those that appear in your second witness statement so you can understand i hope why i'm asking you questions about it
01:34:48 about it but given the qualification you you've made of course we understand that um bear with me and see if you can answer my questions and if you can't you can't um but let's see how we go shall we um
01:35:01 um but let's see how we go shall we um uh i've shown you the scope if we look a little bit lower down page one you can see key factors assessed yes yes
01:35:10 yes yes uh and under that you can see uh as under the third bold heading uh behavior in relation to fire yes yes but it says this the boards
01:35:22 yes but it says this the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire or present a smoke or toxic hazard c-section seven have you as you sit there today any understanding
01:35:34 understanding about what that phrase means when it says
01:35:37 says the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire well without reference to section 7 taking the words as they are written
01:35:48 taking the words as they are written um the meaning appears to be clear the boards will not contribute to the development stages of fire so um that's what it appears to say that's what i understand it to me
01:36:00 that's what i understand it to me all right well we'll explore that in a little bit more detail in a moment do you know historically who had proposed that specific wording for this certificate as a result of your researches
01:36:12 um no i think the the the request from the inquiry was to identify i think everybody who'd been involved in the process um i i may i may be incorrect about that
01:36:25 um i i may i may be incorrect about that that's what i understood and therefore you know to offer from the hr department a list of the names that we think have been involved in this process so if if that process is right it it
01:36:37 so if if that process is right it it would seem it's one of the people in that list
01:36:40 that list but i can't tell the inquiry who who it was who would have put that wording in there
01:36:45 there right and does it follow that you don't know
01:36:48 know whether and if so how that language is taken from any guidance or the building regulations or any particular test
01:36:56 test standard
01:37:01 um no i don't it's not wording that i've seen before used in the context of other certificates i have seen for example
01:37:12 certificates i have seen for example right do you know what was the scientific or evidential basis for the statement that the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire
01:37:25 no i don't do you know how contribution to the development stages of a fire
01:37:33 of a fire would be measured no
01:37:38 do you understand k-15 to be a combustible phenolic insulation material
01:37:52 the extent that i i know from from what i've heard of course that um it was one of the materials that burned
01:38:04 one of the materials that burned at the tower and therefore it must have had some degree of of combustibility but i don't know any more detail than
01:38:15 but i don't know any more detail than that um
01:38:16 that um to be candid with you given that as you say
01:38:19 say it burns uh how do you know can you help us how it could be at all accurate to say that the boards will not contribute to the development stages
01:38:30 the development stages of a fire i can't help the inquiry with that can we look at chris hunt's statement please you can see his name at the bottom of the page there as the person who as
01:38:43 of the page there as the person who as head of approvals signed off this certificate his statement is at bba 3011087
01:38:52 3011087 and i'd like to show you paragraph 60 on page 13.
01:38:58 page 13. three zeros one one zero eight seven uh and there it is page uh 13 paragraph 60. uh if we go up please to the bottom of page 12
01:39:09 page 12 uh we can see that there's a set of questions
01:39:12 questions which start at para or question 26 at the foot of page 12. and mr hunt is asked this in relation to the following statement the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire
01:39:23 to the development stages of a fire found at page one of the certificate and then if we turn the page to page 13 please
01:39:28 please who provided this wording answer parrot58 i don't know b who checked and or authorized the inclusion of this wording
01:39:37 wording answer paragraph 59 i have a site of the certificate traveller log ch 5 and the individuals names are present
01:39:44 present see what is the statement intended to mean
01:39:47 mean paragraph 60 i don't know but i would refer
01:39:50 refer to my answer to question 26 e below now just pausing on the i don't know um does
01:40:01 just pausing on the i don't know um does that
01:40:01 that concern you at all
01:40:05 yes it does it does obviously a lot of time has passed uh and i don't know what mr hunt may have seen or not seen but um
01:40:16 but um that that is um an answer that is is surprising yes now looking at paragraph uh e uh which is underneath 61
01:40:29 e uh which is underneath 61 uh the question that's asked of him is what is the evidential basis for the statement please give full details of all and any material relied on to make this assertion
01:40:40 this assertion and provide references when necessary to any relevant test or standard his answer is i don't remember but i recall the page one content was intended as a summary from the sections within the body of the certificate
01:40:51 the body of the certificate the summary directs the reader to section 7 where full details are given that doesn't help does it in enlightening us as to what that expression means
01:41:06 i would agree um it it taken literally unless there's some other explanation what the reader could only interpret what is written there do you know
01:41:17 know and can you help us with whether this uh expression uh does not contribute or will not contribute uh to the development stages of the fire had come from an early letter from the
01:41:30 had come from an early letter from the lost provincial prevention council to the bba
01:41:33 the bba in 1994. does that ring a bell with you no uh well let's see how we go um can we go please to bba three zeros one one two eight seven
01:41:50 this is a letter dated the 13th of july 1994 from the lost prevention council in london to the british board of agreement
01:42:03 agreement and it's addressed to hugh jenkins you can see that the uh subject matter of the letter is called k8
01:42:10 called k8 cavity boards see that yes uh now this letter mr moore was exhibited to your witness statement to the inquiry date of the 18th of november 2020 your
01:42:21 date of the 18th of november 2020 your second statement uh and according to you this was one of the documents on which the assessment of k-15 by the bba in 2008 was based
01:42:32 bba in 2008 was based that's right isn't it um yes it was it was all the material or included in all the material that the bba was able to locate uh
01:42:44 the bba was able to locate uh around which it would only be around this material that uh that a decision would have been made so to that extent yes well let's see let's see what you say can we have your second statement up
01:42:56 can we have your second statement up please
01:42:57 please at page four i just want to look with you
01:43:00 you at paragraph 16 and 17. uh at paragraph 3m
01:43:15 uh at paragraph 3m you are asked the question any additional documents relating to technical assessment or testing of k15 provided to the bba by kingspan at any audit inspection or meeting
01:43:26 audit inspection or meeting uh and at paragraph 16 you say uh instead the classification uh for k-15 was extrapolated from a series
01:43:37 series of fire reports on similar kingston phenolic products including those of similar density and facing type copies of the fire reports are exhibited at bm4
01:43:47 at bm4 that's what you say in your statement and as part of bm4 uh you exhibited the letter that we've just been looking at from the loss prevention council can we go back to that bba three zeros
01:43:59 can we go back to that bba three zeros one one two eight seven and if we go to item one on the first page objective to evaluate the test data relating to the above system you see that
01:44:10 you see that yes and the above system is k8 cavity boards yes
01:44:15 yes yes and if we go down to page two of this letter we can scroll down there you can see that in the top half of that page um
01:44:22 page um there is a reference to the tests that the lpc were evaluating and in the
01:44:29 in the second line it says that the test method uh there was bs476 part six
01:44:37 six a sample of cool thumb k9 a cfc free phenolic frame with a glass tissue face top surface and a foil based uh foil faced base surface
01:44:48 uh foil faced base surface and it explains the results there and then underneath that test method bs 476 part 7 1987 sample of courthouse k9 uh uh got a class one
01:45:02 uh got a class one now although the assessment is said to be in relation to k8 cavity boards it seems from this that the tests under bs 47 6 part 6 and 7 were carried out on a different product
01:45:14 were carried out on a different product namely call them k9 do you see that yes i do um when you were investigating this and exhibiting this letter to your witness statement to support the
01:45:27 to your witness statement to support the extrapolation to which you were referring did you notice that fact
01:45:32 um i noticed kk8 and k9 um but i i don't think i made it the distinction that you've just made um in in as you've just explained it
01:45:45 um in in as you've just explained it uh now the section i want you to look at is at page three under heading four if we can go to that please the first paragraph there under the heading examination of draft certificate says
01:45:56 certificate says based on the examination of the content of use specified in your draft certificate we do not believe that the product will make a significant contribution to a developing fire the chances of the
01:46:07 to a developing fire the chances of the material becoming accidentally ignited during use is remote but if it does become exposed to an ignition source such as a plumber's torch fire is unlikely to be propagated etc and then it goes on to say this
01:46:19 etc and then it goes on to say this takes into account uh the name flammability characteristics of phenolic foam all say that within the cavity of a conventional wall there is unlikely to be a sufficient supply of oxygen to support combustion now
01:46:30 of oxygen to support combustion now looking at the words i emphasized in the second and third lines we do not believe that the product will make a significant contribution to a developing fire do you agree that that wording bears a
01:46:42 do you agree that that wording bears a strong similarity to the wording that we've just been looking at on page one of
01:46:46 of issue one of the bba certificate for cool therm k-15 dated the 27th of october 2008. yes it does appear to be similar
01:46:57 yes it does appear to be similar uh can i ask you what it was that prompted you to
01:47:04 exhibit this letter to your statement the second statement
01:47:12 so as i said my my my my role was to on behalf of the inquiry half
01:47:25 for the inquiry um was to was to locate collate um assess and provide responses to the inquiry who gave you
01:47:37 responses to the inquiry who gave you this letter
01:47:40 um
01:47:45 probably mr alban
01:47:54 exercise um if in respect of uh rit systems would be a um an i.t lead in respect to any hr matters hr leads
01:48:05 leads in in terms of of looking inside files mr alban
01:48:09 mr alban so i would imagine this is mr alban but i can't be 100 sure more likely than not mr alban right was the process of thinking that you need to explain the source of that
01:48:21 you need to explain the source of that phrase
01:48:23 phrase and you ask somebody to go away and find a document that might explain it mr alban found this document and brought it back to you and you exhibited it is that a fair summary of what happened
01:48:35 is that a fair summary of what happened no that's distinctly unfair and and it is unaccurate inaccurate so my job was to find any material that could help the inquiry
01:48:46 any material that could help the inquiry um a task we took very seriously and make it available to you i have no knowledge of of the the wording of the certificate i did not ask anybody to do
01:48:59 certificate i did not ask anybody to do anything
01:49:00 anything untoward at all on the contrary it's essential that the bba helps this inquiry
01:49:06 inquiry get to the bottom of some very difficult things
01:49:10 things mr moore don't get me wrong i'm not accusing the bba of obstructing the work of the inquiry and i'm sorry if my question came across to you that way what i'm seeking to establish is what is
01:49:22 what i'm seeking to establish is what is what the detective work was which led to you
01:49:24 you exhibiting this document did you instruct mr alban or anybody else uh to assist you get to the bottom of the origins of the phrase on page one of
01:49:36 the origins of the phrase on page one of the bba certificate no not at all right are you able to enlighten me as to how this document uh was found and why it was thought to be relevant
01:49:50 um anything that could help the inquiry um you know spread that spread the net as wide as possible to help the inquiry
01:50:01 help the inquiry uh what was our approach um that's what i asked them to do so it must have been in a file or somewhere close to or part of the
01:50:12 or somewhere close to or part of the cool firm files k15 or any others and we just gave the inquiry everything that we had before you exhibited this document to
01:50:23 before you exhibited this document to your second statement did you yourself look at it um yes i remember the name at the top of it uh the loss prevention council is memorable
01:50:35 council is memorable in terms of understanding um its significance um i say i want also to provide an answer um so so the explanation that it was
01:50:48 um so so the explanation that it was um that the extrapolation had come from similar uh products uh was was a deduction um a rational deduction it would appear
01:50:59 um a rational deduction it would appear as to
01:51:00 as to why because it was in it was in the same file or close to the same material as it would relate to king uh cool firm k-15s
01:51:08 k-15s uh fire classification tests did you ask yourself when you looked at this document uh why it was relevant
01:51:19 um it appeared to appear to relate to the fire classification of the cool firm k series and to that extent could be relevant
01:51:31 and to that extent could be relevant right i see did you notice that this 1994 letter specifically relates to a cavity wall insulation product and not to an insulation board for use in an external ventilated rain screen
01:51:43 in an external ventilated rain screen cladding system
01:51:46 no i no i i don't think i drew that distinction
01:51:54 uh going back if we can then to the certificate bba 6038 at page one let's look again together at key factors assessed
01:52:08 do you agree and i'm sorry i'll wait for it to come up yes now there it is do you agree with me that the uh if k-15 is indeed as i think you've
01:52:19 uh if k-15 is indeed as i think you've accepted
01:52:20 accepted a combustible material do you agree that the
01:52:23 the statement the boards will not contribute to the development stages of a fire is inaccurate and misleading
01:52:36 if if kingspan k-15 will burn and will contribute to the development stages of a fire then that that is not correct
01:52:48 then that that is not correct do you remember in your time whether the bba
01:52:51 bba ever received any queries concerns or complaints in relation to the use of that expression in this certificate
01:53:01 i have no recollection of a complaint being made as you've suggested can we look at page five of this certificate next please
01:53:17 uh this is uh section seven uh towards the bottom of the screen behavior in relation to fire can we look at 7.2 at the very bottom of the page
01:53:28 the page it says the product is classified as class naught or low risk is defined in the document supporting the national building regulations product therefore may be used in accordance with the provisions of
01:53:40 accordance with the provisions of and then if we turn the page you can see england and wales approve document b paragraph 8.4 volume 1 and paragraph 12.5 and 12.6 volume 2 c also diagram 40.
01:54:06 did you yourself when you signed your statement
01:54:09 statement see any underlying fire test data provided by kingspan to support the the claim in this certificate that k15 had achieved class
01:54:20 certificate that k15 had achieved class naught
01:54:23 naught i don't believe so anything i saw was in the material i submitted to the inquiry i don't believe
01:54:30 believe there is anything in there like that no let's then look at your statement and take this a little bit more piecemeal um this is your second statement 18th of november of 2020
01:54:42 statement 18th of november of 2020 for bba three zeros one zero one one zero nine seven can we go to page four in that and look at paragraph 3m
01:54:55 paragraph 3m is a request for any additional documents relating to technical assessment or testing of k15 provided to the bba by kingspan at any audit inspection or meeting and
01:55:06 at any audit inspection or meeting and you say it paragraph 15 certificate uh 0 8 stroke 4582 and the first issue of certificate 14 stroke 5134
01:55:19 certificate 14 stroke 5134 stated that the product was a class naught straight low risk material in order to demonstrate this test reports are required to bs 476 part 6 and bs 476 part 7 and no such reports
01:55:31 and bs 476 part 7 and no such reports are contained on any of the k-15 file folders and then you say paragraph 60
01:55:36 60 instead the classification for k-15 was extrapolated from a series of fire reports on similar kingspan phenolic products
01:55:45 products including those of similar density and facing type copies of the fire reports are exhibited at bm4
01:55:52 at bm4 first is this extrapolation exercise something that you had
01:55:59 you had discussed with mr album at any stage
01:56:05 and yes
01:56:08 when please
01:56:13 at i thought about the time and probably as a result of the request by letter from the inquiry in approximately april 20
01:56:26 in approximately april 20 2019 what's the nature of those discussions um well in say locate material collate material assess the material
01:56:38 collate material assess the material and report the material what was
01:56:44 that's the exercise um well if there are no if there are no kingspan if there are no fire reports to justify the class naught
01:56:55 to justify the class naught statement on what basis was the bba including this in a certificate was the question i
01:57:06 in a certificate was the question i asked
01:57:07 asked um and mr alban's view uh a very experienced and senior person at the bba his view was that it was
01:57:19 his view was that it was more likely than not um that it was extrapolated from a series of fire reports on similar king-span phenolic products including those of similar
01:57:30 products including those of similar density i.e the material referenced at exhibit bm4 and you will recall that at the start of my statement that i did clarify that that wording as
01:57:43 clarify that that wording as as as a deduction belief rather than an absolute there is a formula here that someone has extrapolated from a series of fire reports now
01:57:57 from a series of fire reports now mr moore in your statement you don't tell us that the classification for k-15
01:58:10 the classification for k-15 was as you were told by mr alban the product of an extrapolation you assert that it was extrapolated
01:58:21 assert that it was extrapolated why don't you tell us there that it was something that mr alban told you you know something like that i discussed with mr alban and and i came to this view now whether
01:58:32 and and i came to this view now whether i was told in terms that it happened or or that was my conclusion um but with so many of the requests from the inquiry it was necessary for for me to i say clay and then assess
01:58:43 clay and then assess um why is this as it is so it was one of numerous conversations i had
01:58:51 had when collating locating and providing material to to the inquiry from disparate sources within the bba so um it was not unusual
01:59:03 so um it was not unusual to try to contextualize information that was being given to the inquiry so i need to understand your evidence because in your statement you're making a unqualified statement of
01:59:15 you're making a unqualified statement of fact that the classification for k-15 was extrapolated now i think you're telling us that in fact
01:59:23 fact you were told by mr alban that it was more likely than not that the classification was a result of an extrapolation which is it well let's just with respect
01:59:34 which is it well let's just with respect let's be clear about the facts here um the the request i received on about the 17th of november was to tr transpose my letter
01:59:46 was to tr transpose my letter of honor about the 19th of april into a witness statement which which a very short notice i did probably overnight if you look further up that witness
01:59:57 if you look further up that witness statement
01:59:58 statement i provide an explanation uh as to belief um as to to what if you can look further up i don't know what what paragraph number it is but
02:00:10 what what paragraph number it is but it's further up that witness statement
02:00:15 might i refresh my memory from seeing yes yes of course um if you go to page two we can see paragraph five which might be what you uh uh want to refer us to
02:00:26 to refer us to is that right
02:00:32 yes so this this is the the timeline um i was asked to provide a letter
02:00:40 letter uh provide information to the inquiry came to the bba which which we did um the narrative contained in it
02:00:51 um the narrative contained in it was a composite response drafted by me on behalf
02:00:54 on behalf of the bba following consultation and discussion with a number of individuals within the organization paragraph six having left the bba in january and been asked pretty much overnight to make a
02:01:06 pretty much overnight to make a statement about something that i hadn't thought of in a long time um i i wanted to
02:01:12 to establish whether any of the underlying facts had changed i had anything been found
02:01:17 found because there's always a potential for human error in these things for things to be misfiled my short rep i said in paragraph seven i believe that my short response is is too brief i think be more
02:01:29 is is too brief i think be more appropriate to say that instead the bba believes that the classification for kingspan k-15 was extrapolated from a series of fire reports
02:01:39 reports rather than as a statement the fact now whether i was told that as a statement of fact
02:01:43 of fact or whether i concluded it was a statement of fact is what i put in the letter
02:01:48 letter when i came to make my statement in november 2020 um i hope these paragraphs explain how i came to be in the position about
02:01:59 how i came to be in the position about what was written in my letter and i included there that it was a composite response drafted following consultation discussion because you know i did i wasn't doing all the digging around and running
02:02:10 all the digging around and running around looking for all the material i was having to respond to what i was being presented with i hope that helps a little bit just explain the context well let's see how we go are you able to
02:02:21 well let's see how we go are you able to tell us what the uh process or methodology that was used for the extrapolation was um
02:02:30 was um no i can't tell you personally what it was um i understood that it was not uh it wasn't common but it was not unusual if there were
02:02:42 but it was not unusual if there were products of a similar of a very similar kind uh to to each other
02:02:48 other um and if and if the performance was was a judge to be so similar to one that we'd already assessed it was not unusual um for the bba to extrapolate
02:03:02 um for the bba to extrapolate this opinion from one product to a similar one that that was the the core of the conversation that is that something is what you've just told us something that john alban
02:03:13 just told us something that john alban told
02:03:13 told you or is it something you're telling us from your own knowledge and experience it is something that i'm i'm saying arose in my conversation with mr alban based upon his knowledge and experience
02:03:26 based upon his knowledge and experience across many many years more than me at the bba
02:03:29 the bba um to me that sounded and i think this material was actually in in the place where the fire test reports would be
02:03:37 would be in in the particular folder so it was it was far from uh it wasn't a leap of faith it was a reasonable uh deduction
02:03:48 a reasonable uh deduction to be drawn and that was the basis for the belief did the bba follow any particular guidance when carrying out these extrapolations
02:03:58 um guidance
02:04:03 not that i i'm aware of and it would be the opinion the technical opinion of of the competent individual um supported by their their peers
02:04:15 um supported by their their peers a lot of the bba workers is a technical opinion
02:04:18 opinion which we need to stand by in evidence but i'm not aware that the specific guidance
02:04:24 guidance uh in this case um that was applied in terms of making the decision about extrapolation if indeed that was the case do you consider that this extrapolation to which you swear
02:04:36 to which you swear is a process permitted by bs 476 part six and seven
02:04:41 i'm i'm not swearing that um because i don't know it's a statement of fact i am just trying to help the inquiry um understand um what happened or may have happened
02:04:55 um what happened or may have happened which was the purpose of providing information well with respect mr moore you don't say what may have happened you say in an unqualified way in paragraph 16 that the classification for
02:05:07 paragraph 16 that the classification for k-15 was extrapolated i'll ask my question again do you consider that the extrapolation to which you refer in this paragraph is a process permitted by bs 476 parts six and seven
02:05:20 permitted by bs 476 parts six and seven um i i i really should be i'm not the argumentative but but just the first part you said they can refer you to to my paragraph five and six to explain
02:05:31 to my paragraph five and six to explain and seven
02:05:32 and seven of my statement to explain the position um please yes of course we can go back to page
02:05:40 to page two what what is it in paragraph five to which you'd wish to draw our attention well just the the process like you i believe forgive me if i'm wrong at the
02:05:52 i believe forgive me if i'm wrong at the start that you were you were referring to paragraph 16 of the statement no that's paragraph 16 of the letter that i sent in april um here is my evidence clarifying paragraph 16 of of
02:06:05 evidence clarifying paragraph 16 of of of the letter but i'm going to cut across you i just all i want to know is your is your knowledge do you think that the extrapolation process which is the subject of your witness statement
02:06:17 the subject of your witness statement is a process permitted by bs 476 part six and seven or not um
02:06:24 or not um well don't you know i i don't know however
02:06:28 however um no i don't know i i i can't be certain whether that whether that is is permitted um there's a certain logic to it um but whether it's permitted or not
02:06:39 whether it's permitted or not i can't say right uh looking at paragraph 16 again please uh you you say uh that the extrapolation was from a series of file reports on similar uh kingspan phenolic
02:06:53 on similar uh kingspan phenolic products including those of similar density and facing type do you know how similar to use your word uh the different products have to be for this extrapolation
02:07:04 this extrapolation exercise to be permissible if at all
02:07:09 do you know i don't know how no i don't know how similar they need to be do you know what factors would would
02:07:20 do you know what factors would would decide
02:07:21 decide whether or not the different products were similar enough for this kind of extrapolation to be appropriate
02:07:31 no
02:07:35 to your knowledge has this concept or methodology of extrapolating from test data
02:07:40 data from one product to another product to arrive at an assertion that that other product is class naught to your knowledge has that idea ever been discussed or checked by
02:07:52 idea ever been discussed or checked by you with a fire engineer
02:07:56 and it is not it's not been checked by me
02:08:00 me with a with a fire engineer the reports that you have exhibited were those supplied to you by mr alba
02:08:10 yes did he tell you that it was on it was that
02:08:14 was that it was those fire reports which formed the basis
02:08:18 the basis of an extrapolation or as you put it more likely than not an extrapolation
02:08:25 yes um yes i believe that material was in the old uh could i just go back to paragraph five or six please yes of course
02:08:36 five or six please yes of course page 2.
02:08:41 yes forgive me you've got them off paragraph 7
02:08:48 the principal reason for this belief i.e that there was extrapolation is that the fire uh the fire reports referred to to be exhibit b m4 had been copied into the
02:09:00 exhibit b m4 had been copied into the k-15
02:09:01 k-15 folder and it is unlikely that would have happened unless someone had relied upon them
02:09:07 upon them yes i see did mr alban play any part in your using or you're exhibiting those reports
02:09:18 or you're exhibiting those reports uh or was it you who selected them from the k15 folder simply because they were there
02:09:27 um in anything um and and everything to do with k-15 that i was aware of was submitted to the inquiry
02:09:38 inquiry so yes so
02:09:41 so yes so um that was that that was that was what we were being asked to do as i understood it and so that's what i asked my team to do provide material related to k15
02:09:53 provide material related to k15 and if there was anything in that folder um
02:09:57 um that relate to k15 i hope it's been sent to the inquiry now i'm going to summarize uh the uh reports that form the exhibit which
02:10:08 uh reports that form the exhibit which you say
02:10:08 you say were the basis of the extrapolation i i am going to summarize them give the references i'm not going to read them to you
02:10:15 you the first one is august 1991 a report from a test to bs 476 part 7 on unfaced cfc3 phenolic foam laminate that's the bb a301130 a report from
02:10:28 that's the bb a301130 a report from february 1993 under bs 476 part seven on a k7 sarking board glass tissue backed nine micron aluminium facing bba three zeros one one two eight six
02:10:40 one one two eight six the next one is october 1993 reports from tests to both parts six and seven of bs476 on a product called k9 glass tissue not foil facer and that's
02:10:52 glass tissue not foil facer and that's bba three zeros eleven two eight eight and 11 to 1129 bba 11 uh two nine july 1994 an lpc letter
02:11:05 uh two nine july 1994 an lpc letter which we've seen uh october 2003 a report from a test to bs 476 part 6 on cool thumb dl2000 uh with an aluminium face of the glass tissue face
02:11:17 aluminium face of the glass tissue face and a report also under part 7 on cool thumb dl 3300 with one aluminium face and one glass tissue phase and those are at bba three zeroes
02:11:26 zeroes one one three one and one one three two and then finally a report in december 2003
02:11:32 2003 uh to bs 476 and seven on cool thumb dl 3300
02:11:37 3300 again with one aluminium face and one glass tissue face do you know from your knowledge what consideration was given during the extrapolation process as to the age of
02:11:49 extrapolation process as to the age of those reports one of which was 15 years old by 2008.
02:11:59 no i i don't know um the the process by which the extrapolation if it occurred did occur do you know what consideration was given
02:12:10 was given to the fact as we can see as i've said that none of those products appear to have had the same phaser arrangement as k-15 in use in 2008 namely foil faces on both sides
02:12:22 in 2008 namely foil faces on both sides of the phenolic core
02:12:27 um again if if if they were in the folder in in the section that related to fire then it was the assumption
02:12:40 then it was the assumption the belief that they had been considered now whether that whether they were satisfactory evidence to
02:12:47 to make the opinion that would support bs 476 in it
02:12:50 476 in it the absence of a test uh i i can't comment
02:12:55 comment um if they're not sufficiently similar then that can't be a good thing no i understand do you know who it was at the bba who had been responsible for making
02:13:05 making this technical assessment for the first issue of the k-15 certificate
02:13:12 no um again i believe we provided a list of stuff i think that was one of the requests from the inquiry in the same letter to provide a list of stuff you'll
02:13:24 to provide a list of stuff you'll correct me if i'm wrong um i believe that was the case um so i i would assume someone uh who'd been involved in that process on that list but i i
02:13:35 on that list but i i i can't be sure um and you're no you're not wrong that there was a list asked for and provided but i think you can't tell us who it was on that list who was
02:13:45 did you see during the course of your researches to prepare this statement any document demonstrating the extrapolation exercise
02:13:55 no i didn't i didn't see the document um i i remember i had i assumed there must have been one there must have something for the extrapolation which is which is why um i wanted to check that
02:14:08 which is why um i wanted to check that and there wasn't one i went back to the bba the day or two before i was required to make myself had anything else been found and the answer was no so so i didn't see and i haven't to the
02:14:19 so so i didn't see and i haven't to the states in a document based upon which any extrapolation occurred
02:14:24 occurred hence caveating it to belief and deduction
02:14:27 deduction rather than seeing a document that proved it had happened yes you agreed i think earlier and i think correct me if i'm wrong and it's apparent from your statement that uh there was no fire test
02:14:39 that uh there was no fire test data to bs 476 part six and seven provided to the bba relating to cool thumb k-15 before the issue of uh issue one of the um
02:14:50 um certificate uh in october 2008. did you agree well i think my my evidence would be that that no such evidence was found in the files
02:15:01 evidence was found in the files or any place that the bba looked um it would be my assumption that the bba wasn't provided with it by as a matter of strict factor i i can't
02:15:12 as a matter of strict factor i i can't say but it wasn't in the places where it should be
02:15:15 should be instead was something else the documents that you've just referred to whose responsibility would it have been and if you can't give me the name then maybe you can give me the role
02:15:26 maybe you can give me the role position uh to ensure that that fire test data had been received for k-15
02:15:34 for k-15 before this certificate was issued um the the responsibility would be the project manager
02:15:44 manager uh who would be who was responsible for assessing the product and coming to a an assessment and a certification decision
02:15:53 decision um plus those managing that person to quality assure that a suitable process had been followed are you able to tell us why this extrapolation exercise was carried out
02:16:05 extrapolation exercise was carried out rather than simply following up to kingspan with a specific request for fire test data under bs476 part six and seven
02:16:15 no i can't i'd be speculating as to why it does seem to me it would be easier just to ask for the the fire test
02:16:27 are you aware as you sit there today that
02:16:32 that during the whole of the life of this bba certificate uh kingspan had in fact obtained test results which showed that k15 was not able to achieve class naught
02:16:43 was not able to achieve class naught as a composite product all i've heard is is a media report uh some time ago which i inadvertently tumbled into but today is the first formal and
02:16:56 but today is the first formal and informed indication i've received that that is the case do you agree that had the bba actually asked to see any of their test data on which
02:17:06 which the assertion that the product had achieved class was based the bba would have discovered the fact that there was no such data yes um again i don't know the facts but
02:17:17 yes um again i don't know the facts but but
02:17:18 but surely if that information had been was in the
02:17:21 in the possession of a client and provided the bba it
02:17:24 bba it would and should have changed the outcome
02:17:27 outcome do you agree that the bba should have requested test data to bs 476 and 7 instead of extrapolating the data from different products and previous certificates some as old as
02:17:38 and previous certificates some as old as 15 years
02:17:40 old with without knowing without knowing why this was done
02:17:49 the best route the best route is to is to get the test data uh uh the 476 test data get it available
02:18:00 test data get it available it's the only route shortly isn't it in the absence of any other explanation i i agree yes do you accept that this is the proceeding to state class naught
02:18:13 is the proceeding to state class naught in the absence of any test data was a very basic failure of due diligence on the part of the bba
02:18:23 if there was no basis upon which to include that statement in the certificate then that can't be correct that can't be right
02:18:34 right are you able to account for why it was that the bba allowed technical statements to be printed in a certificate which would be relied upon by a wide range of construction professionals without doing
02:18:45 professionals without doing even the most basic checks to make sure that the assertions were properly founded
02:18:49 founded in evidential data and i i can't explain that
02:19:00 do you agree also i think you do looking at paragraph 10 of your statement that in fact no initial inspection of the manufacturer of k-15 was carried out yes i think the reason you give is that
02:19:12 yes i think the reason you give is that the product was very similar to others already covered by our other bba certification is that right
02:19:19 right yes
02:19:22 if we go to paragraph 11 it's probably better to see it on the screen this is on page three of your second
02:19:32 statement that you uh say there as such the level of quality control operated by the certificate holder was well established and considered to be satisfactory the details for k-15
02:19:44 be satisfactory the details for k-15 were added into the existing bba quality plan
02:19:47 plan and then covered by the ongoing surveillance regime what was the source of your knowledge that no initial inspection of the manufacturer of k-15 had been carried out
02:19:57 out um again one of my three or four lieutenants more likely than not mr alban do you know who made the decision not not to carry out such an inspection no i
02:20:09 not to carry out such an inspection no i don't
02:20:11 don't do you know what the reasoning was behind the decision to carry out no initial assessment inspection sure other other than the reason the only reason
02:20:22 reason the only reason um i was advised of was the one contained in paragraph 11 i.e that the certificate holder and the other products were
02:20:33 holder and the other products were well known well established and could be included within the existing quality plan
02:20:38 plan are you able to explain how anybody could have known that k-15 was manufactured in an identical way to similar products if there'd been no uh inspection of the manufacturer of k15 by the bba
02:20:52 of the manufacturer of k15 by the bba again i can't the underlying premise is that it's so similar to others um that the bba was already very familiar with
02:21:03 familiar with was it common practice to your knowledge in 2008 i know you weren't there at the time but
02:21:07 time but given your researches was it common practice at that time at the bba when a new product was to be certified such as k-15 that no assessment was carried out at all
02:21:18 carried out at all on the basis that the level of quality control operated by the putative certificate holder was considered to be satisfactory
02:21:29 um it's difficult a good number of years before i i joined the bba um it certainly wasn't um acceptable at the time when i was there
02:21:40 acceptable at the time when i was there and
02:21:41 and i yeah it's difficult to explain right and and what does what does satisfactory mean satisfactory by what measure
02:21:50 measure can you help um in in terms of that the ongoing quality management um the you know the non-conformances the
02:22:01 the you know the non-conformances the adherence of the certificate holder to the quality plan was considered to be reasonable are you satisfactory they were cooperative they were engaged um they were making the effort to be
02:22:13 um they were making the effort to be to adhere to the quality plan that that's
02:22:16 that's that's the my understanding of what that means
02:22:20 means and what is the source of your statements that you make here at paragraphs 10 and 11. um again in discussion with uh mr alban um explain explain this um
02:22:33 um explain explain this um to me because we're going to write to the inquiry and and and tell them what we believe uh and part of that discussion he in turn will have spoken to other colleagues in the bba um
02:22:45 spoken to other colleagues in the bba um uh to have a view and he had his own historical knowledge so that was the basis upon which um i reported this to the inquiry thank you very much
02:22:56 very much um we're now going to turn to a completely different topic but it is two minutes before 4 30 mr chairman it would be probably wise with your leave to break for the day and start that new topic
02:23:07 for the day and start that new topic tomorrow morning yes can you give me any idea how long you might be with us tomorrow tomorrow yes we've been a little longer than i would have had this afternoon i'm afraid so it
02:23:18 have had this afternoon i'm afraid so it will be the morning right right well mr mall we are going to break at this point i'm sorry that we have to ask you to come back again for more questions tomorrow but
02:23:29 tomorrow but i think and hope you've been warned that that was likely to be necessary yes mr chairman um so we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow um
02:23:41 we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow um and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it overnight and we'll hope but i can't guarantee to get you out by lunchtime
02:23:53 guarantee to get you out by lunchtime we'll see how we go anyway all right
02:23:58 see you at 10 o'clock tomorrow and that's where we break for the day thank you