Brian Moore, former BBA operations director, gives evidence about certificate review processes, handling of non-responses from manufacturers, and BBA's response after Grenfell.
00:00:09 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh today we're going to start by hearing further evidence from mr brian moore so my first task is to check that he is
00:00:21 so my first task is to check that he is here with us and can see me and hear me satisfactorily good morning mr moore are you there
00:00:27 you there good morning mr chairman yes i am and i can hear you and see you clearly very good thank you well today as always i'm joined by my fellow panel members
00:00:37 members miss uh istafan and mr akbar who are with me
00:00:40 with me good morning good morning uh mr moore um i think we better run through the housekeeping just for the form's sake before we actually start
00:00:51 form's sake before we actually start taking our evidence so can i ask you to confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence i confirm that thank you can you confirm
00:01:02 i confirm that thank you can you confirm that you don't have any documents or other materials with you i confirm that thank you and finally can you confirm that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't
00:01:13 is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device with you which is capable of receiving messages
00:01:19 messages i confirm that well done thank you very much now
00:01:23 much now the procedure today will be the same as it was yesterday um i hope we shouldn't have any interruptions uh we shall on the other hand have a short break part way through the morning around
00:01:34 part way through the morning around about 11 15 and as i told you yesterday if you want additional breaks just indicate and we'll do our best to uh accommodate you all right anything you'd
00:01:45 accommodate you all right anything you'd like to raise with me at this stage no thank you all right in that case i'll invite mr millet to uh continue questioning you yes mr miller when you're ready good morning mr chairman good morning
00:01:57 good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel good morning mr moore
00:01:59 moore can i please ask uh for bba 6047 to be displayed on the screen bba 6047
00:02:18 this is the bba certificate for our conics reynabon 55 panels um issued on the 14th of january 2008 that we looked at yesterday and i want now to come on to your
00:02:29 and i want now to come on to your involvement relating to that certificate uh and ask you some questions about it in the post fire um in the post fire time but before we
00:02:40 um in the post fire time but before we do that i'd like to ask you one or two questions about the review and reissue processes in respect to that certificate starting in 2014 um i'm going to summarize what we've
00:02:52 um i'm going to summarize what we've heard so far um valentina amarozzo told us that review uh number two effectively of this certificate s1 stroke 53729
00:03:05 stroke 53729 started in october 2013 with an email from maria barbato from the bba to claude schmidt at arconic seeking information and we heard summarizing it that both
00:03:18 and we heard summarizing it that both maria barbato and then vanity morozo from december 2014 sent repeated messages of requests to our conic for supporting material on on numerous occasions
00:03:30 occasions we heard from samarozo that uh come january 2015 having not received any of the information from arconic the subject of those
00:03:40 of those repeated requests over some 16 months or so
00:03:45 so she closed the review and went ahead with what information she held in hand to draft the review report that's the summary of where we've got to now i want to show you before i come to
00:03:57 now i want to show you before i come to my question what mr nicomo told the inquiry yesterday day 107 can we please go to page 45 of day 107
00:04:18 uh and uh
00:04:25 he tells us uh that uh
00:04:31 but he would have signed off uh i'm not sure it's actually on that page doesn't matter um let me let me tell you let me put you what he told us that he would have signed off to close the review with what we have because
00:04:42 the review with what we have because that was the process that we were following and then he said if we're not getting all the information and we've been chasing chasing the instruction was you complete the review with what you
00:04:53 you complete the review with what you have
00:04:55 have do you agree that there was a standing instruction to project managers to complete the review with what you have
00:05:10 review with what you have um i i don't recall there being a standing instruction um that that in certain cases that wouldn't be appropriate would it um so i i don't believe that was the
00:05:21 um so i i don't believe that was the case a standing instruction
00:05:26 uh well you say in certain cases it wouldn't be appropriate and it wasn't a standing instruction in what cases would it not be appropriate
00:05:36 um well if if there was just completely insufficient information available for a project manager to be able to make
00:05:49 for a project manager to be able to make an assessment and a judgment and what that might look like would would depend on the facts of the case but just logically
00:05:57 logically if one can't assess then one can't assess
00:06:02 well let me show you a little bit more of what uh was said by mr nicomo can we go to the bottom of page 47 please of his transcript
00:06:20 please of his transcript uh and uh you could see that um uh mr nakomo is asked at line 12 were you aware of a decision as she puts it to go ahead with the information already
00:06:31 to go ahead with the information already in hands
00:06:32 in hands answer i think i would have been aware of that yes because the report ultimately came to myself for checking and signing off yes question at line 18 mr moore can you see
00:06:41 see would valentina amarozzi have had the authority to make that decision answer for mr nicomo not just valentina generally we would close the reviews if we were not receiving all the email we would wouldn't keep them open
00:06:53 email we would wouldn't keep them open forever you would just finish it up make conclusions with what information you have and close the job that was common practice
00:07:02 practice question i see we will come back to that answer i just want to know who was the decision maker who would have had the authority to close the review with the information already in hand answer in this case i
00:07:13 already in hand answer in this case i would have signed off to close the review with what we have because that was the process we were following at the time
00:07:19 time if we are not getting all the information and we have been chasing chasing the instruction was you complete the review with what you have and we closed the job with the decision uh obviously of what the information
00:07:32 uh obviously of what the information gives you now i've shown you quite a bit there mr nicomo's evidence uh is that something you agree with from the on the basis of your experience at
00:07:44 the on the basis of your experience at the time
00:07:50 and
00:07:53 it would be not very usual that there isn't information to be able to make a decision on generally that wouldn't be a satisfactory way to proceed
00:08:06 satisfactory way to proceed um i think i can read the sense of what mr and como is saying and i can see why you've mentioned a stanley instruction if there was sufficient information for the assessor
00:08:17 the assessor to be able to come to a view um then come to the view that you can i'm not sure i i i don't believe there's a standing instruction
00:08:29 a standing instruction uh to do this there's there's a judgment to be applied i think i can understand what mr and como
00:08:35 como is saying um but i don't think it goes as far as as being suggested it's a standing instruction was there a general policy or common practice to use his expression
00:08:49 well the common practice of course is if you have sufficient information to make a decision make it and if you don't have sufficient information to come to a judgment then then then
00:09:01 to come to a judgment then then then don't make up so i'm not being facetious but i'm just saying that that would be the approach that would be that would be applied i'm not sure certainly not an instruction a policy um
00:09:14 certainly not an instruction a policy um a common sense approach perhaps well it may or may not be a common sense approach mr moore what i'm seeking to get to the bottom of with you is was it
00:09:27 get to the bottom of with you is was it a
00:09:27 a policy or a methodology or approach generally followed by project managers that even if they hadn't had answers to
00:09:40 that even if they hadn't had answers to questions they'd raised from certificate holders
00:09:43 holders they would and could nonetheless proceed to close the review
00:09:48 um i would say if they had sufficient information if everything wasn't answered
00:09:54 answered um then sometimes you know that would that would arise they wouldn't get all the responses that they would want but if they had sufficient information to be able to reach um
00:10:05 able to reach um a decision and make a judgment then then do so
00:10:09 do so i would say would be the approach i can't describe that as a formal policy um as as a way of sensible working was there any
00:10:21 way of sensible working was there any guidance
00:10:21 guidance or any process for project managers and their line managers to follow if they were getting no response from a certificate holder to requests in
00:10:33 from a certificate holder to requests in for information they thought were necessary or relevant
00:10:41 if the information that wasn't available was so significant such as the person was not able to make an assessment and come to a judgment that then escalate that because there
00:10:53 that then escalate that because there would be decisions then about the ongoing validity of the certificate so would you have expected valentina amarozza or pranakomo to have escalated a repeated and long-standing failure by
00:11:05 a repeated and long-standing failure by a certificate holder to provide information uh that they had asked for
00:11:11 asked for valentina as the project manager at least had asked for
00:11:18 yes if the information was significant enough
00:11:21 enough that uh valentino or anybody else was not able to come to an assessment judgment then yes escalate that
00:11:30 that when you say not able to come to an assessment or judgment
00:11:37 do you mean what do you mean not able to come to an assessment or judgment if the information that they needed
00:11:46 needed was important to the continuing validity of a certificate and they didn't have that information then yes
00:11:56 then yes they should escalate that would you expect a project manager to be pressing repeatedly for information that he or she did not regard
00:12:05 regard as important to the review um i would expect them to be pressing a lot for information they thought
00:12:16 lot for information they thought appropriate and necessary sometimes if they if they were just following by wrote a list of things perhaps some of those points aren't
00:12:27 perhaps some of those points aren't essential but if they're pressing and pressing for something that they consider important and pivotal to the assessment decision and they weren't getting it then yes please escalate that
00:12:41 then yes please escalate that and would those be circumstances in which suspension of the certificate uh should have been or would have been
00:12:50 considered if if the information that was sought was important and pivotal to the ongoing validity
00:13:01 validity of the certificate and the contractual position with the client would be that they they have to provide information to us then yes that would be grounds for
00:13:13 then yes that would be grounds for discussion as to whether suspension is is appropriate mr miller you forget by interrupting i i think i would find it helpful if mr moore could be asked to put this in
00:13:24 moore could be asked to put this in context
00:13:25 context we're talking about a review certificate uh and uh the question is how should the person concerned respond
00:13:37 how should the person concerned respond if the question to which he or she is not receiving an answer is has anything changed
00:13:49 answer is has anything changed because you obviously got material already before you because it by definition it's review but what you want to know is has anything changed no how do you respond if you don't get an answer to that
00:14:02 if you don't get an answer to that has anything changed
00:14:07 well um
00:14:10 that that could be it could be significant um again it would depend on on what was known about the certificate um what was what the feedback from if
00:14:21 um what was what the feedback from if there'd been audits um of it all this didn't have to be seen in the round but it potentially it could be significant if they weren't getting response
00:14:30 response in some cases it may not be that significant significant if we knew a lot about the product so i'm i'm sorry it could be it could be significant but in some cases it could it may be less so
00:14:42 cases it could it may be less so all right thank you very much yes mr millet mr moore let me try the chairman's question again on the basis that the request was for confirmation
00:14:53 that the request was for confirmation that nothing would have changed which would affect the validity of the certificate what then if there was no answer after repeated requests
00:15:06 well if in doubt if if the assessor or their manager um feels that it is significant and they can't make cut they can't come to a
00:15:17 can't make cut they can't come to a a reasonable and fair and objective decision
00:15:20 decision escalate it if in doubt um escalate what i don't think is any harm in in in escalating something um to see if others can can assist well you say you don't think there's any
00:15:32 well you say you don't think there's any harm in escalating what i'm really putting to you is was there a system in place whereby if if project managers refused after repeated attempts to get
00:15:44 refused after repeated attempts to get confirmation that there were no changes which otherwise might undermine the validity of the certificate the project manager and their line managers would escalate that to senior management
00:15:55 management so in terms of there being a document a written policy of if after two or three attempts to get something you don't get it escalate no i don't believe that i don't believe
00:16:07 no i don't believe that i don't believe and i'm i'm more sure than not that that there is such a written policy
00:16:14 and same question was there a system in place whereby if answer is if questions such as that were repeatedly left unanswered
00:16:26 left unanswered uh whether those would be grounds for considering suspension of the certificate
00:16:33 yes if the ground was were significant um and would affect the ability to make the decisions i've been talking about that would be grounds for consideration of suspension
00:16:45 of suspension now ms amirozzo told us that the only occasion
00:16:48 occasion when the bva would threaten not to reissue a certificate is when the certificate holder would deny access to the factory that was day 106 page 82 at line six
00:17:00 that was day 106 page 82 at line six was she right about that
00:17:10 i no i i don't believe so um in my own experience um and certainly at or about after about
00:17:21 and certainly at or about after about 2016 i was dealing with a case which is not like that um where where where someone was either withholding information or presenting us with
00:17:32 information or presenting us with different information than we thought we should receive um i i threatened suspension i i did suspend so so no i don't think that that was the only
00:17:43 only criterion upon which a decision to suspend would be would be made refusal to grant access to a location i don't think that's correct because i'm aware at least one and possibly more examples
00:17:54 examples of where other grounds came into uh came into being and suspension followed right now you and ms amarezo started at the bba at more or less the same time perhaps about a month apart
00:18:05 same time perhaps about a month apart can you account for uh why she told us that in her own experience and understanding the only occasion when the bba would threaten not to reissue a certificate is
00:18:17 threaten not to reissue a certificate is when
00:18:17 when the certificate holder denied access to the factory
00:18:22 um with all due respect to miss amoroso um she may not be aware of what other parts of the bba was doing given there were a number of distinct um teams
00:18:34 distinct um teams um and there was generally um often no need to share with with individual team members what was happening elsewhere um so i don't i don't believe she's
00:18:45 um so i don't i don't believe she's correct in in her assessment and assumption there i'm aware of other examples which clearly are contrary to what she says was it not important for project managers and their immediate
00:18:56 for project managers and their immediate line managers at least to have an understanding of what the sanctions were in circumstances where the certificate holder
00:19:04 holder had not answered repeated requests for information relevant to a review
00:19:12 well i i believe it's it's it is clear that if you're not getting the information you you escalate it and there are grounds to suspend if that's not the case um
00:19:24 that's not the case um i'm surprised i'm surprised to hear that there was
00:19:28 there was any other understanding operating if that was the case for miss amoroso and indeed her manager yes and my question is can you account uh for why she had the view she did
00:19:41 no i can't um and what i can say just just
00:19:45 just apply my mind to this that um there would regularly be staff meetings where all the teams were brought together and senior managers would discuss with them
00:19:56 senior managers would discuss with them what was going on and i can say that from
00:20:01 from 20 certainly 2016 onwards um my presentations to to staff at the bba were about intelligence
00:20:12 intelligence um getting information about anything unethical going on in the organization and about risk um escalating risk and understanding the bba's position
00:20:25 and understanding the bba's position in respect of having information that maybe only we would know about and making sure that was employed and deployed properly to keep the public safe so
00:20:36 to keep the public safe so that that was um something i spoke to
00:20:41 on a number of occasions during my time at the bba can you account for why there was no or appears to have been no clear guidance or training given to
00:20:53 no clear guidance or training given to project managers and their immediate line managers about the exact circumstances in which suspension of a certificate would be considered
00:21:06 well the grounds could be numerous and varied um
00:21:10 varied um of course if if there is an issue that's stopping you being able to do your job escalate it um and and you know
00:21:21 escalate it um and and you know let your managers and others worry about this rather than the individual so i i i don't i don't know why there isn't such a such a policy as you described
00:21:33 such a policy as you described but um i'm just trying to think how how practical that would would be but i never in my time at the bba had a sense that that
00:21:43 that that people would choose to sit on and suppress
00:21:47 suppress risks for themselves rather than escalate it to to people more senior
00:21:54 now there was a further review of this certificate for reynabond 55 which began in october 2016
00:22:03 2016 and i just want to ask you about one of two aspects of that review valentina amarozzo told us that she discovered that the cassette fixed variant of raynaud 55 was not manufactured by
00:22:15 raynaud 55 was not manufactured by arconic
00:22:17 arconic and that as a consequence uh it was treated or to be treated as not covered by the certificate and eventually that led to it's being excluded when the certificate
00:22:28 it's being excluded when the certificate came to be reissued in august 2017. and that's a summary of of what she told us about the cassette uh on the basis of what i've just
00:22:39 uh on the basis of what i've just summarized to you of her evidence do you agree
00:22:42 agree that she had identified a material error in the certificate as it has existed since 2008 namely that it covered cassette fix variant of renault 155
00:22:56 cassette fix variant of renault 155 when it shouldn't have done yes that that is significant now valentina amoroso told us that there was no process by which such an error would be
00:23:08 by which such an error would be communicated to readers of the certificate unless they specifically contacted the bba and inquired she said that in her statement of paragraph 86 and
00:23:20 in her statement of paragraph 86 and also at day 106 page 111 at lines 19-24 i don't need to take you to that but is she right about that
00:23:32 yes yes there was no direct process for the bba to communicate with uh the public or users
00:23:43 uh the public or users um and and the responsibility would be upon
00:23:47 upon the client to bring that to to the attention of those who may be affected by it
00:23:55 does that tell us that certificates would
00:23:59 would or might still be circulating which had errors on it like this one and no one would know unless they asked
00:24:07 well from the bba's perspective uh the bba would not know where where that who had used it where it been used how it being the certificate i'm referring to wouldn't have that information
00:24:19 wouldn't have that information um to be able to act upon it um but the client would but i can tell the inquiry about one occasion where um literally just two days before the fire where
00:24:32 just two days before the fire where where i did um do a major escalation uh to hm government of a matter that caused me great concern so so it was it was possible for the bba
00:24:44 so so it was it was possible for the bba to
00:24:45 to communicate or report to government if something was very significant and we were aware of it can you tell us as shortly as possible what that
00:24:57 what that matter was that caused you such great concern
00:25:00 concern yes as briefly as i can and in february of 2016 and the bba became aware that insulation
00:25:11 and the bba became aware that insulation on the side of a building a tall building had fallen nobody was hurt thank the lord but it did raise significant issues because that was a certificated
00:25:23 that was a certificated product and i dispatched a team to go and inquire what had happened and as a result of what we learned
00:25:35 and as a result of what we learned i mounted to me like a 14-month inquiry because it appeared that the industry was not
00:25:43 was not very aware of wind load calculations how robust something exposed to severe weather would need to be and
00:25:55 severe weather would need to be and um that investigation reviewed lots and lots of different certificates and certificate holders and we presented our report about our findings
00:26:05 findings because i think it was out with the bba's
00:26:08 bba's control and even out with the clients um knowledge as to where this gone and we submitted this report to hm government on about the the 12th i think the 12th or the 13th of june um
00:26:21 i think the 12th or the 13th of june um 2017 some 14 months after the incident so so the bba could and would um escalate matters if if i
00:26:33 um escalate matters if if i if i knew about them
00:26:36 and as a result of that investigation uh well was it prompted first of all by anything
00:26:44 anything wrong with the certificate
00:26:49 no i don't believe it was because the responsibility within it was upon building professionals to make the right calculations
00:27:00 to make the right calculations the the issue was i was not convinced and my my scientific and engineering colleagues weren't convinced that those skills
00:27:09 skills reposed in the users of the certificate um so on that basis it was raised right so it wasn't anything about the certificate that started this investigation it was about the use of the end product is that what
00:27:21 use of the end product is that what you're telling us
00:27:26 to the um certificate to the extent of the certificate identify the responsibility with someone else
00:27:35 else i wasn't happy that was sufficiently clear
00:27:39 clear which is why i explored it and because it was about the end user and we couldn't control that i escalated that to hm government who would hm government uh to
00:27:52 who would hm government uh to the department for communities as it was an
00:27:55 an and local government um i think the gentleman's name may have been mr harrell
00:28:03 coming back to uh this one can we just look at what you said a moment ago on page 15 at line four you said the bba would not
00:28:15 would not wouldn't know uh who'd used it where it had been used and how it had been used uh but you would you would be able wouldn't you to put something up on your website
00:28:25 website to say to the world that the reynabon 55 certificate dated 14th of january 2008 had a material error in it
00:28:36 material error in it and no longer should be read as covering cassette
00:28:40 cassette why couldn't you do that
00:28:43 i i believe that there was a process whereby
00:28:46 whereby certificates which were withdrawn were posted onto the the bba website um i think it was i remember seeing it i didn't spend a lot of time
00:28:57 seeing it i didn't spend a lot of time with it but i remember looking at it that there was a withdrawn certificate page or area on on the bba website
00:29:10 right um was there a process at the bba whereby those who might have relied on an inaccurate certificate in the past were told about those inaccuracies
00:29:27 were told about those inaccuracies um the answer is that the bba wouldn't know
00:29:31 know um who had relied on or seen or used a certificate previously that therefore it was difficult other than to say a certificate had been
00:29:43 than to say a certificate had been withdrawn and placed onto the website as i've just described i wasn't aware of another process um i i can't think of another process that would answer the question that you
00:29:54 that would answer the question that you just set
00:29:55 just set well why not put on the bba's website that in relation to the 14th of january 2008 certificate of the reign of 155 it can no longer be relied upon as covering
00:30:07 covering cassette and should never have covered cassette from the start why wasn't that something you could put on your website as soon as that was discovered um
00:30:21 well just you know there could be a multitude of reasons why a certificate is withdrawn um you know going on to how much narrative does does one put around these things but the
00:30:33 does one put around these things but the fact the certificate had been withdrawn was there
00:30:36 was there and of course anyone can ask uh why why is that
00:30:39 is that um and so i think that was the approach that was taken report the fact um there could be loads of reasons around it um and then if if someone wishes to find
00:30:51 and then if if someone wishes to find out more
00:30:52 out more to contact the bba that's i believe the approach that was adopted right my question is why wasn't there a process whereby as soon as valentina amarozzo
00:31:02 amarozzo decided that the certificate should no longer cover cassette and should never have covered cassette but that fact wasn't communicated to the world at large on the bba's website whether or not the certificate was
00:31:13 whether or not the certificate was formally fully withdrawn um i i can't answer other than to say as i've answered before
00:31:24 i've answered before now we've also heard that valentina amarozzo
00:31:27 amarozzo asked arconic as part of this 2016 to 17 review
00:31:33 review for technical data sheets commercial brochures installation manuals and ce data and we've also heard that at this point late 2016 the latest fire classification
00:31:45 late 2016 the latest fire classification report on the technical file available to her was from 2005 against that background my question is was there a policy or process in place at the bba
00:31:56 at the bba at that time late 2016 where whereby project managers should routinely ask for up-to-date classification reports
00:32:06 no i don't believe that there was such an instructional requirement why not
00:32:14 why not um the the process that the bba operated against was that um the
00:32:25 um the location should be under surveillance and the obligation on the client to report anything that had changed which we've just
00:32:36 that had changed which we've just discussed
00:32:37 discussed and therefore if it's a a sealed system if you will but if nothing had changed and the attributes of the product hadn't changed then the extant information
00:32:48 information was sufficient to enable the bba to be satisfied
00:32:52 satisfied that the product was still as it was intended to be when certificated that was the concept
00:33:07 so you were entirely reliant uh on whether or not there had been anything um
00:33:15 um that had changed in the manufacturing of the product its attributes
00:33:22 yes and in my opinion um i believe that the bba
00:33:27 the bba was um and is overly reliant on the client providing information to the bba
00:33:39 information to the bba hence would you agree the critical importance of seeking and obtaining on every occasion
00:33:46 occasion of a reissue of a review or reissue a clear confirmation from the client that nothing had changed which would undermine the validity of the certificate
00:34:00 in my opinion yes but i don't think the sanctions
00:34:05 sanctions available to upon a client are sufficient to make sure that happens
00:34:12 now we know that in november 2016 the bba
00:34:16 bba offered a reissue contract to arconic and that was agreed uh i don't need to go to that with you the reference is bba 408 187 and we know that
00:34:27 408 187 and we know that a reissue process was taking place when the grenfell tower fire occurred on the 14th of june 2017. and i want to turn to uh uh some questions uh
00:34:40 to uh uh some questions uh about um about the about adb before i ask you questions about what happened after the fire within the bba in relation to this certificate so against that background
00:34:51 certificate so against that background can i show you mr albon's second witness statement please
00:34:56 please uh this is bba 3010723 and i want to go to page 36 paragraph 149
00:35:13 he says at the bottom of the page under the question at 37 please explain what steps the vba took to review and amend the bba certificate
00:35:26 to review and amend the bba certificate zero eight stroke four five one zero after the fire and what precipitated those steps and his answer is earlier in 2017 before the fire
00:35:35 the fire the bba had identified what it considered to be an ambiguity in the wording of section 12.7 insulation materials straight products of approved document b volume 2. this section reads in part if
00:35:46 volume 2. this section reads in part if we can turn the page please in a building with a story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gasket sealants gaskets and similar etc used in
00:35:58 sealants gaskets and similar etc used in the external wall construction should be of limited combustibility and if we go down to paragraph 150 he says the issue centered on what would
00:36:09 he says the issue centered on what would constitute a filler some quotes and in particular whether the polyethylene materials in acms could be so classified since the events of grenfell fire there
00:36:20 since the events of grenfell fire there has been some debate on this issue and an opinion has been expressed by an expert witness to the inquiry dr barbara elaine this is not the case however the bba felt that the existence of the etc in this section widened the definition
00:36:32 in this section widened the definition of materials covered by this requirement and that it could be concluded that the polyethylene would be required to be of limited combustibility irrespective of whether or not it constituted a filler
00:36:43 filler in a paragraph 151 he says if this was the case
00:36:47 the case as the polyethylene was not of limited combustibility the product would be restricted to use on buildings up to 18 meters in height were you aware of this view that he's
00:36:59 were you aware of this view that he's described
00:37:00 described at the bba at the time he describes
00:37:05 um i i can't remember exactly when in 2017
00:37:10 2017 my feeling is it was linked to the time of the fire shortly thereafter but mr olbern and and others were discussing this issue about about the filler um and then the
00:37:23 about about the filler um and then the the excess the etc wording so so yes i was
00:37:27 was aware of the conversation i can't i can't tie it down to a specific time i'm afraid right so are you unable to help us with exactly
00:37:38 exactly or even roughly when the bba first identified the ambiguity to which mr albon refers in paragraph 149.
00:37:51 in paragraph 149. now i can't um i've got no reason to doubt that the time scale mr alban has suggested as being in the early part of 2017 that that may that may be correct but i
00:38:03 that that may that may be correct but i can't offer a personal view it was it was certainly an extant discussion at the time of the fire and and i sense it may have been going on before then right was this discussed at
00:38:16 right was this discussed at a senior level a managerial level within the bba
00:38:20 the bba to your knowledge
00:38:25 it's it's highly likely it's it's a relatively small team the ceo is is an engineer and an enthusiastic engineer um and i i feel yes it would have been
00:38:37 i i feel yes it would have been discussed
00:38:38 discussed um at senior level were you yourself involved
00:38:42 involved in any such discussions
00:38:51 um i i i remember it being discussed um whether that was a formal uh formal media or or or being talked about um i remember it but i i can't say that
00:39:05 um i remember it but i i can't say that i was asked to make a decision or necessarily give a particular view on it
00:39:11 are you able to help us with how the bba came to
00:39:14 came to the conclusion identified by mr alvin in his statement here no i can't no i can't help you miss amaroso told the inquiry that
00:39:26 miss amaroso told the inquiry that the conversation or discussions about this question started at about about the time of the second review say late 2016. that was day 106 page 166
00:39:38 that was day 106 page 166 uh line 16 and page 167 do you agree with that i'm sorry there was an interruption in the transmission there and i lost probably a third of the sentence i think
00:39:50 probably a third of the sentence i think would you would you repeat the question please
00:39:52 please yes certainly ms amarezo told the inquiry that the conversational discussions about this question started about the time of the second review so late 2016.
00:40:03 review so late 2016. i've given some transcript references do you agree with her
00:40:09 um i i i don't know as a simple answer again
00:40:13 again um the the time that is a possible time frame but i don't personally know can we look at your evidence yesterday please at page 107 of yesterday's
00:40:24 please at page 107 of yesterday's transcript
00:40:28 sorry what uh sorry day 107 page 118 of yesterday's transcript i apologize page 118 of yesterday's transcript
00:40:43 and
00:40:47 if you look down at line 11 uh you uh say uh particularly during 2015 and into 2016 i
00:40:59 particularly during 2015 and into 2016 i began to take an interest in intelligence about the industry and making sure that anything that related to poor practice in the industry with that was coming to our attention was brought to my attention so that i could decide how best to deal
00:41:10 so that i could decide how best to deal with it
00:41:12 with it was this question about the meaning and ambit
00:41:15 ambit of section 12.7 of approved document b one of those things that was brought to your attention as a result of your interest
00:41:24 interest in intelligence about the industry you told us about um no that's not quite what i was referring to yesterday intelligence was about an ethical
00:41:36 intelligence was about an ethical practice
00:41:37 practice or malpractice that was taking place in the industry not um legitimate debates about the the meaning of the approved
00:41:48 about the the meaning of the approved documents
00:41:49 documents i think there's been an almost near constant discussion about whether uh the building regulations and the approved documents are sufficiently clear
00:41:59 clear um i think uh scientists and engineers who live and breathe this stuff talk about it a great deal so so um i don't that is not what i was
00:42:10 um i don't that is not what i was referring to in in line 11 of my yesterday's evidence valentina amarozzo told us that the bba had tried to reach out to the government on this question but without much luck
00:42:21 on this question but without much luck uh is that something you remember no i don't remember that
00:42:45 no i don't remember that uh now i want to ask you about the aftermath
00:42:49 aftermath of the grenfell tower fire the immediate aftermath in the june and the july of 2017. can i start please by taking you
00:42:57 you back to your witness statement at page two
00:43:09 and you say in page in on page two in paragraph
00:43:12 paragraph four you say i was in post on 14th june 2017 when the fire at granville tower occurred in the aftermath the bba was trying to establish what had happened
00:43:24 establish what had happened but in my opinion there was an information vacuum in the bba sought to piece together a picture from media reports and other sources we believe that reynabond pe was involved reynabond pe is certificated by the bba
00:43:37 reynabond pe is certificated by the bba can you explain what you mean there by an information vacuum
00:43:42 yes um
00:43:45 there was a massive information swirling around
00:43:50 around the media was full of reports people who may or may not have been experts on the television talking about about what had happened and what was involved uh newspaper reports social media
00:44:04 uh newspaper reports social media that there was a male strong but in the middle
00:44:09 middle you know clear facts from an authoritative and objective source uh i thought was was lacking so i you know i i didn't know what had
00:44:20 so i you know i i didn't know what had happened and it was some time after before i had a sense of what did actually happen so we like everyone else were trying to understand what had gone on
00:44:31 understand what had gone on so that's what i mean both by a vacuum but also a lot of other information flying around it was difficult to understand what the position was was there an internal
00:44:41 internal investigation at the bba in respect of this certificate at this time um an internal investigation to the extent of um understanding
00:44:53 to the extent of um understanding what had gone on and and what was certificated yes yes
00:45:00 yes yes who led that investigation would say that i would say that was me when did that start
00:45:10 um again it depends it depends what you mean by an investigation um can you suspect what you mean by by internal investigation well you've
00:45:21 by internal investigation well you've said that it was an information vacuum uh and nothing in the middle of it uh this maelstrom i asked you whether there was an internal investigation in respect of the certificate um and you said to the extent of
00:45:32 um and you said to the extent of understanding what had gone on yes um so you tell me what what steps did you take to investigate uh the bba's role uh in certifying the
00:45:44 uh the bba's role uh in certifying the product that you rightly thought was on the outside of grenfell tower well i i've set out in in this witness
00:45:56 well i i've set out in in this witness statement the steps i took to establish what had happened in terms of what was on the building and who knew what and when can i can i just say
00:46:08 and when can i can i just say and make it very clear that the purpose of this witness statement was to alert the inquiry in 2018 november
00:46:18 november that uh dr lane who was about to give evidence to the inquiry may not have had the information she needed
00:46:27 needed um so so this statement set out what i did
00:46:31 did and what i knew about in terms of what had gone on around what was on the building and the steps that the bba took so so this document in effect uh
00:46:42 so so this document in effect uh reprises what i was doing to investigate what had gone on at the building right when you started your investigation as you uh described it thus far did were you
00:46:54 uh described it thus far did were you responding to a request from more senior management at the bba
00:47:01 well with respect i think the use of the word investigation was was yours um i i i will agree to an extent um but um perhaps not as far as as as you
00:47:14 but um perhaps not as far as as as you intended to mean um at the bba the yeah um yes the chief executive of course was was fully aware um as with the governing
00:47:25 was fully aware um as with the governing board
00:47:26 board and yes i just put myself in the position of leading on behalf of the bba
00:47:35 can we look at bba 30104 please
00:47:50 now uh if if we look at the lower part of the screen uh
00:48:07 of the screen uh there's an email sorry we need to go i think back to the top of the screen there uh this is an email from you of the 20th of uh june i think i need page
00:48:22 uh yes no that's the one um and it's an email
00:48:26 email uh no i want the second i'm so sorry i want the next page down please second email in the string 938 yes thank you this is from you on the 20th of june 2017 at 9 38
00:48:40 the 20th of june 2017 at 9 38 to a variety of people uh and it starts dear board members do i take it from the introduction there that the people to whom you were sending this email were members of the bba board
00:48:52 email were members of the bba board yes please find a pendant a note regarding the fatal fire at grenfell tower
00:48:57 tower this is our current understanding based on media reports in summary we are in a reasonable position if the cladding system ie the combust the combination of cladding and insulation
00:49:08 cladding and insulation is as described in the media then the system is not certificated by the bba the insulation itself is not certificated by the vba the planning itself is the certificate is is 2008 vintage
00:49:20 is is 2008 vintage and was in the process of being reviewed and reissued just before the fire we would be in a stronger position if it stated in terms not to be used above 18 meters but as the note makes clear the certificate holder straight user
00:49:31 certificate holder straight user must comply with building regs we had not conducted any cladding related inspections at building now by 2008 vintage there what were you
00:49:42 now by 2008 vintage there what were you indicating um that the certificate was probably eight years at well it would be nine years old um at uh at the time when the
00:49:54 um at uh at the time when the cladding etc that the building had been reef and was being re reviewed well as as it says there and was being reviewed reissued before the fire
00:50:03 fire um it did not specify not to be used above 18 meters well just as a note says the certificate holder however must comply with building regulations yes i'm sorry just got off slightly off
00:50:15 yes i'm sorry just got off slightly off the point i'm just asking you about the vintage
00:50:18 vintage did the fact that you were using the expression 2008 vintage uh indicate or was it was it intended to indicate that this certificate was was old and should perhaps have been reissued since 2008
00:50:34 yes i think i think that is what i i was saying vintage means generally means that it was an older certificate that's that's for sure yes and uh you say as you see here and you
00:50:47 and uh you say as you see here and you pointed out you would be in a stronger position if it stated in terms not to be used above 18 meters
00:50:53 18 meters and was it your view at the time that the certificate should have said that
00:50:58 well i think as you alluded to earlier um sir that um the um
00:51:06 the um sort of lost my point um that um approved document b and um fillers etc
00:51:17 and um fillers etc uh were putting were causing the bba to reconsider um whether uh cladding with a with a pe core could be used above 18
00:51:29 with a pe core could be used above 18 meters
00:51:30 meters um so so to that extent it was relevant um to the bba's thinking at the time forgive me it may help if you just
00:51:41 forgive me it may help if you just repeat your question please yes my question was uh was it your view at the time that the certificate ought to have been restricted to use below 18 meters
00:51:54 to use below 18 meters it it would have been well um it would have been clearer if it specified that in in absolute terms
00:52:05 terms but back to the base upon which doing that because approved document b i think at that stage um still permitted b and class north above 18 meters
00:52:17 b and class north above 18 meters well indeed uh and that was my next question
00:52:21 question was there anything that remotely suggested on this the face of this certificate uh that reyna 155 should not be used above 18 meters um as i say to your point earlier that
00:52:33 um as i say to your point earlier that there was
00:52:34 there was discussion going on within the bba about limiting
00:52:38 limiting um the limiting the what we would certificate ie to 18 meters if the core was a filler and um was potentially therefore
00:52:49 therefore not not combustible or of limited combustibility so it was that point which which we discussed earlier i believe that again i don't remember seeing that email until
00:53:00 email until just presented so forgive me if i'm trying to recall as i'm reading now we can see the note that was attached to your email of the 20th of june
00:53:11 your email of the 20th of june uh that we've just looked at and the note itself is at bba3010486 i think in the light of the answers you've given so far i can take this document quite quickly um but let's just look at it you because
00:53:24 um but let's just look at it you because it's an a document with your name on it it starts bba position on grenfell tower as of 20th of june 2017. if we go to page five of that document
00:53:40 please
00:53:55 uh you can see your name at the bottom uh together with john albans and jordan adams's
00:53:59 adams's did you co-author this document
00:54:05 um i think probably the document came to me
00:54:08 me and i put i think any board related any board related comments about it so yes i've added my name so i am i am
00:54:19 yes i've added my name so i am i am taking responsibility for the for the document
00:54:22 document i see can we uh go to paragraphs 16 17 and 18 on page three
00:54:34 you can see that those paragraphs there 16 to 18 deal with technical matters about approved document b you see that paragraph 17 refers to diagram 40.
00:54:45 paragraph 17 refers to diagram 40. paragraph 18 refers to section section 12.7 of approved document b and paragraph 19 uh um refers to appendix a and the meaning of limited combustibility
00:54:57 of limited combustibility were those passages that i'm showing you there passages in this note that you wrote
00:55:02 wrote or were they written by the other signatories um i i would have deferred to mr alban um on this um so i did not write that
00:55:15 um on this um so i did not write that section
00:55:16 section i said i'd say all of 19 but i don't believe i would have ordered that as well
00:55:20 well i see so we can ask mr alvin about about that can we i mean would mr alvin be the better person to ask about the details of these paragraphs yes yes
00:55:34 yes yes uh then we can move on to your discussions with arconic in the june of 2017 after the fire can we start with bba 3010 769 at page
00:55:45 can we start with bba 3010 769 at page six please
00:55:52 this is simon rose email to nicholas remy at iconic copper club verlais
00:55:59 verlais valentina amarozo and you so it's two days or so after the fire at the grenfell tower and you can see there that
00:56:11 and you can see there that in the second part of the email halfway down your screen he says um if possible we would be grateful if you could confirm that our colleague architectural products sas
00:56:22 colleague architectural products sas supplied renault cladding panels to either of the above companies for this contract
00:56:26 contract and if so whether panels standard or fr grade polyester or pvdf coated in flat or cassette form thank you in advance for your help now we've seen no response from our
00:56:37 now we've seen no response from our conic to this email in our records mr moore do you know whether one was received to the best of my knowledge and belief no response was received to this email
00:56:51 do you know why a response was not chased up
00:56:56 a response was a response was chased up um colleagues mr rowe and miss amarozzo
00:57:07 and miss amarozzo were to my knowledge calling um their contacts there probably over a two week period we certainly see some correspondence in
00:57:19 we certainly see some correspondence in july but i'm not sure we've seen a a prompt email from simon wrote nicholas remy or claude verla saying please can you respond to my my email
00:57:30 please can you respond to my my email below we haven't seen something like that
00:57:33 that do you know why that was
00:57:38 um well
00:57:43 the staff members were chasing were chasing i used that word we were very keen to get information um i would imagine that the people
00:57:55 um i would imagine that the people uh at the other end were very very busy um whether they would be responding to emails or not from the bba clearly not but we did have telephone we
00:58:07 clearly not but we did have telephone we did have named people and telephone numbers
00:58:10 numbers so there was work going on to try to telephone them as well during this period
00:58:15 period to my knowledge um let's move into july can we look please at met3053158 underscore
00:58:26 look please at met3053158 underscore p18 page 174
00:58:40 uh and here we see uh an email uh second email down i think from hannah willis at bba to nicholas remy
00:58:52 remy uh on the 4th of july 2017. dear mr remy on behalf of the bba operations director brian moore please find attached a letter relating to the grenfell tower of fire
00:59:04 fire see that yes and the letter itself is uh page 181 a little bit lower down this exhibit run if we can just go to that click
00:59:12 click page 181 and here is the letter from you as you can see at the bottom of the screen addressed to mr remy uh at merczheim uh dear mr remy grenfell
00:59:23 uh at merczheim uh dear mr remy grenfell tower of fire and uh in the second paragraph uh you look the first paragraph actually i should just show you you say further to my letter of the 26th of june 2017 i
00:59:35 my letter of the 26th of june 2017 i write in closing a copy of a letter we sent to over 600 local authorities and housing associations on friday 30th june 2017.
00:59:45 and i'll come to that in a moment the background to this you say in your second paragraph is that we have been receiving inquiries from local authorities and housing associations asking for information regarding the role of certificates
00:59:56 regarding the role of certificates in particular relating to the far performance of aluminium composite cladding materials we wrote to try to help staff in these organizations understand how to use and navigate bba certificates
01:00:09 navigate bba certificates uh and i'll stop there can we look at the
01:00:12 the letter to which you're referring in the first paragraph this is a page 175 of the same exhibit run
01:00:20 run you can get back to that
01:00:24 and if you look at the next page
01:00:31 that we can see uh the actual uh letter
01:00:38 uh it starts to all the local authorities and housing associations there's a dear blank aluminium composite cladding understanding the role of bba certificates uh and then proceeds
01:00:52 uh and then proceeds um i'm showing you the first page there were you involved in the drafting of this document uh
01:01:03 probably not um if there's a significant technical element to it then then it would have been drafted on my behalf um yes let's just
01:01:15 um yes let's just let's just look at a a separate document to see if we can explore that a little bit further can we go please to bba three zero one zero three five four
01:01:31 um this is an email at the bottom of the page uh to you i think from liz male dear brian sorry for such a late
01:01:42 dear brian sorry for such a late response this evening well done on pulling together this draft writing to la's stroke has is definitely the right thing to do for all the reasons you state below and because it also supports the bba's
01:01:53 and because it also supports the bba's ongoing efforts to create dialogue build brand awareness and prompt close relationships with social landlords the longer term benefit of cast cit etc and then she says she's made quite a few
01:02:05 and then she says she's made quite a few suggestions to the text of the letter but then if you go up a little bit up the screen we can see uh uh that you like that you that you are copied in on a an email from
01:02:19 are copied in on a an email from claire curtis thomas to liz male in response
01:02:23 response liz very good john read the point about building control is there any rail here for competent person self-certification which would diminish the input of the building control you've copied in on that as is john aldon clearly that question is addressed
01:02:34 aldon clearly that question is addressed to him
01:02:36 to him it looks from that as if you were involved
01:02:40 involved yourself in the drafting of this document is that is that right sorry which which document the the q a document yeah the the yes the q a document the the 600 the letter that
01:02:53 a document the the 600 the letter that was sent to the 600 local authorities and housing associations
01:02:59 again i i don't remember this until you've just shown it to me um i haven't read the document so it's difficult for me to comment what i would say is if it contains significant
01:03:10 significant technical um information then it's unlikely i would be drafting it
01:03:20 if we well this document let's go back to it shall we um it's page 176 sorry yes page 176. uh th is this the document that you
01:03:33 uh th is this the document that you would refer to as the faq document
01:03:38 um no i saw queue and i saw q when i saw a so that's the document
01:03:45 document i was referring to this document yes surprise um well let's stick with it for a moment can we go to page 177
01:03:54 and the question there is what does the proof document be say about cladding on high-rise buildings and what fire tests are carried out it's at the top of your screen and the first few paragraphs under that heading
01:04:05 first few paragraphs under that heading set out the requirements in approved document b and also requirement b4 on external fire spread as you can see uh and at the bottom of the page just on
01:04:16 uh and at the bottom of the page just on the screen at the moment if we can have it scrolled up just a little uh it says as a consequence of the testing carried out the renault cladding product used at grenfell tower was deemed to achieve a
01:04:28 grenfell tower was deemed to achieve a class naught rating
01:04:32 did you play any part in drafting that sentence i don't believe so again looking looking
01:04:43 i don't believe so again looking looking at
01:04:44 at it's quite um i would not claim that my my knowledge of approved document b and its appendices etc um is is sufficiently adequate that i would
01:04:57 is is sufficiently adequate that i would like to draft a document going out to 600 local authorities so i i don't believe i was involved in that
01:05:05 that to the best in belief do you know who was
01:05:09 was um it would be those with the best knowledge of the bba around this um possibly mr alban possibly mr denier the
01:05:21 mr alban possibly mr denier the principal scientist um or the chief engineer um but again i'm i am not sure i don't wish to mislead the inquiry i'm not certain
01:05:35 uh i don't think we've seen john denier copied in on the email chain internally which attaches this document uh we'd say do you know who drafted the
01:05:47 uh we'd say do you know who drafted the sentence i've just shown you or can you not help us i can't help you i i
01:05:51 i i don't know are you able to tell us what the words was deemed to achieve class naught rating was there
01:06:03 so you broke up slightly the last part of your question could you repeat the question please are you able to tell us what the words was deemed to achieve class naught rating means
01:06:15 naught rating means no i can't do you agree as a fact that reyna bond p he had not been tested in accordance with bs 476 part six and seven
01:06:26 seven nor indeed uh bs four seven six part eleven
01:06:29 eleven for limited combustibility
01:06:37 i believe that is correct did you know that
01:06:41 that at the time this letter was drafted and sent out
01:06:53 um it's difficult to say i don't know exactly when when
01:07:02 this document relation to that discussion um what what i can say is is that that expression looks familiar
01:07:12 familiar and was deemed to achieve a classo rating
01:07:15 rating um i don't know where it's from but i believe i've seen that expression used before
01:07:20 before so whether it was something extracted from another document i also think it's about this um the class class naught and and the euro
01:07:31 the class class naught and and the euro class are different but they can be used they can be used uh to satisfy the requirements of the approved document so i i think i've seen that wording before but i can't say
01:07:43 seen that wording before but i can't say exactly where and i think it's about trying to suggest they're equivalent but of course they're not
01:07:48 not well of course as we've seen and we may need to go back to it if necessary but the
01:07:54 the bba certificate issued in january 2008 said that the product may be regarded as having class naught
01:08:04 uh given that you are at least passingly familiar with the certificate does that help you with your recollection of the origin of that expression deemed to achieve class naught rating
01:08:16 to achieve class naught rating well it's not exactly the same is it but uh it's it's a it's a similar theme about whether these things are equivalent but that expression does seem did seem familiar and i don't think it's
01:08:27 did seem familiar and i don't think it's that illusion that you've just made can we go back to the have the document please on the screen do you agree
01:08:39 do you agree just look at them again at the bottom of your screen there do you agree that those words might lead the reader of this letter to think that reynabond 55pe
01:08:50 to think that reynabond 55pe had actually achieved class naught
01:09:01 um well if if one reads the paragraph immediately above it and which i hadn't read a moment ago i think i think that sets the context for it
01:09:11 for it let me just read that again these two rating systems are based on different tests which are not interchangeable but the regulations accept the use of either system to achieve these ratings the whole cladding panel is fire tested
01:09:23 cladding panel is fire tested as a consequence of the testing carried out the rainer bond cladding product news that grenfell was deemed to achieve a class o rating it's possible it depends if it depends whether the
01:09:34 it depends if it depends whether the reader of this document local authorities would would have building specifiers and engineers and others engaged in this i hope it would make
01:09:45 hope it would make make sense to the informed reader but there's something about the paragraph above which i think sets the context a little
01:09:57 do you know when the bba first became aware that reyna bond pe 55 have not achieved class naught
01:10:08 i would say the only realistic time that i was sure i was sure not suspicious but sure was probably dr lane's
01:10:20 was probably dr lane's evidence and report which i think was in october 2018 now i'm going to come back to the
01:10:34 now i'm going to come back to the correspondence that you had with our conic
01:10:38 conic shortly before we do that can i look first please with you at bba3010
01:10:47 this is about the ucas visit that took place in july 2012.
01:11:02 uh and it's an email chain between you and claire curtis thomas relating to that visit uh if we go to the third email down which i think you will find on page three of this exhibit
01:11:17 uh yes uh you'll see there that there's an email from you to claire curtis thomas at 10 40. and you say claire a
01:11:29 40. and you say claire a you see that at this morning's coordination forum you see do you see the document yes yes we just we recommended that a message is placed on the intranet accurately but
01:11:40 placed on the intranet accurately but positively describing yesterday's visit by ucas
01:11:44 by ucas our reasons are and then you can see that the reasons um set out the second one we have at least one
01:11:51 one member of staff who has vigorously challenged our position straight handling and then the third bullet point one newspaper contacted us about an employee whistleblower
01:12:03 what was the nature of the challenge by the member of staff referred to
01:12:10 i think we touched on this yesterday sir um
01:12:15 um as i said yesterday i can't remember exactly what the nature of the challenge was other than it was very exercised about this and i was concerned that following that we knew that an employee
01:12:28 following that we knew that an employee had uh contacted a newspaper so i assumed it was the same person as peter said i can't remember exactly what it was about it was it was quite soon after the fire
01:12:40 it was it was quite soon after the fire and therefore it must relate to the fire but i don't know i don't think i ever was so closely involved in it that i knew the detail of of what he was so anxious
01:12:51 the detail of of what he was so anxious about
01:12:53 about uh yes and you did mention this yesterday uh day 107 page one four eight line
01:12:58 line two no need to go back to what you said let's go to a document see if this uh helps your recollection and can we please go to bba four zeros nine five nine six
01:13:19 uh and you can see that this is an email from richard beale to you and john albaum and simon rowe on the 6th of july 2017. and it starts one of our employees has
01:13:31 and it starts one of our employees has raised some concerns relating to faqs relying grenville tower i'd like the team to look at the detail and offer a response against each of the points raised for me to directly liaise with the employee points raised and then
01:13:43 employee points raised and then you can see there are three uh one certificate is subject to regular three yearly reviews is correct but misleading a reissues that should have been carried out have not been undertaken so
01:13:54 out have not been undertaken so certificate is out of date ie certificate refers to building regulations and nhbc regulations which are out of data does not refer in any way to updated regulations two no significant regulatory change
01:14:05 two no significant regulatory change which leads to certificate change false a there have been a number of regulatory changes since 2008 which would have led to a change in the certificate in i think that should be certificate
01:14:16 in i think that should be certificate being updated and changed for example following review of report s153729 in 2014 in which the bba sent report and contract which highlights regulatory changes
01:14:27 regulatory changes the contract was not followed up and thus certificate was not updated web statement gives the impression that the certificate is up to date three statement regard referring to the fact that bba certified rayner bond
01:14:38 fact that bba certified rayner bond product has fit for purpose on high-rise buildings
01:14:41 buildings as per manufacturers definitions hey bba certifies that the product can be used in high-rise applications bba choose to use building regulations as applicable fire standards despite high-profile failures of related
01:14:52 high-profile failures of related products
01:14:53 products in areas of fire safety particular ali bond
01:14:57 bond faq statement implies that bba must use building regulations for certification this is incorrect because bba choose the standards the bba wish to apply certification to bba is an independent body but not bound
01:15:09 bba is an independent body but not bound by government regulations in any area bba adopted these regulations despite concerns from industry about the appropriateness of the regulations in essence statement is inaccurate were
01:15:20 in essence statement is inaccurate were these the
01:15:21 these the complaints about the bba's handling of the situation after the grenfell tower fire made by the employee who you believed contacted ucas and the press
01:15:32 yes i believe that is the case
01:15:36 now you said yesterday that you didn't remember the specifics of the complaint um it seems to be that the complaint was in fact about uh the faqs in in respect to which you
01:15:47 uh the faqs in in respect to which you had a hand in the drafting
01:15:54 all right and we the faq is referred to just now
01:16:04 yes
01:16:10 um well so could you just tell me your questions please sorry i was reading the document again forgive me it is of course yes of course
01:16:21 it is of course yes of course do you accept that the complaint that was made by the employee identified by this email was about
01:16:32 this email was about the faqs authorities and housing associations which you had a hand in drafting um i'm not sure because there were some
01:16:44 um i'm not sure because there were some other faqs um which were on on the website so i think the faqs you just referred to were specifically to local authorities
01:16:55 were specifically to local authorities um who of course had high-rise blocks etc
01:16:59 etc for a specific audience but i think there were some other faqs on the bba website because of course there was lots of contact from other people coming to the bba
01:17:10 bba and it was hoped that the faqs would um help them but also save you know resource within the eba so i'm not sure whether this relates to the faqs to the local authority
01:17:22 the faqs to the local authority or to any other faqs that were on the website
01:17:27 website do you agree let's assume for the moment that these the faqs on the website uh and let's assume for the moment uh that the state that the statements referred to are correct do you agree that the faq
01:17:39 that the faq was misleading for the reason set out in this email
01:17:52 but of course at this time which the date of the sixth of july the 4th of august
01:18:01 august certificate for rayna bond was almost certainly its final approved draft
01:18:07 draft stage and about to be published which i think dealt with
01:18:15 many of the issues described there um it's not quite asked to my question mr law i'll ask it again do you agree
01:18:26 again do you agree on the basis of this email that the faqs on the website were misleading
01:18:33 um no i can't i can't readily agree with that
01:18:37 that um which which faq which faqs are referring to are not and are they ones that i've seen are they the ones you showed to me earlier well
01:18:49 earlier well uh okay let's just take this a little more granularly then item one certificate is subject to regular
01:18:56 regular three early reviews is correct but misleading and then mr bill has put in underneath why in his view it's misleading he says reissue that should have been carried out have not been undertaken so certificate is out of date
01:19:09 certificate is out of date now do you write about that
01:19:15 um
01:19:19 no no because at this time the certificate at this time the certificate for reynabon if that's what we're talking about
01:19:28 about is actually being um updated and and made correct reviews that should have been carried out have not been undertaken so certificate is out of date
01:19:40 certificate is out of date um
01:19:44 i'm not i'm not necessarily sure i i agree with that well you may not have known this but as a fact the certificate wasn't reissued until
01:19:55 the certificate wasn't reissued until the 4th of august 2017. so it had not been reissued okay it would be right to say that in saying that the certificate is subject to regular three early reviews
01:20:07 subject to regular three early reviews is correct that is right but it was misleading because reissues that should have been carried out haven't been undertaken say the certificate is out of date do you accept that
01:20:20 well well if what you've just said is correct then then yes i'm sure what you said is correct yes well just on that then can you explain why the bba's website contained misleading statements
01:20:33 website contained misleading statements well for the reason the reason i've just explained at this time the the the the fourth of august draft um is in f must have been a final
01:20:44 um is in f must have been a final approved draft stage it's been been agreed by the the um the the client and i don't think the faqs went into any granular details it's describing the process
01:20:56 describing the process um again i've seen this document a couple of minutes ago so so forgive me if i don't have all the detail in it in my hand i'm talking about the impression it creates for me i don't think it went into great
01:21:08 i don't think it went into great granular details intended to explain the process
01:21:11 process i believe and help people understand navigate the navigate the uh the certification process i think is actually written somewhere
01:21:19 somewhere mr millett i'm not sure we've actually established that the information on the website was as you're suggesting um the impression i
01:21:30 as you're suggesting um the impression i have
01:21:30 have i hadn't checked the transcript is that you invited mr moore to assume that this was correct that is the that is the basis on which we're proceeding well of course if if we assume it's correct then it's
01:21:41 if we assume it's correct then it's correct but the point is that um uh it may well my question is is it fair to put to him that uh the information on the website was
01:21:51 was uh incorrect if we don't know uh what was actually there well there it is
01:21:59 is it's probably a convenient moment for a break i'll review whatever other questions i've got on this document and maybe we could take them before you have a look at that over the break but it seemed to me that the questions were in danger of becoming circular because
01:22:10 in danger of becoming circular because we were assuming the answer to the question yes i i think the i think the premise of my original question was the document we looked at with him was the faqs but clearly if that's not right then
01:22:21 then we can move on perhaps i'll have a look over the break this may be a convenient moment
01:22:25 moment yes i'm sorry to have interrupted you but since i have then this probably is a good point so we will take um a break now mr moore we'll
01:22:33 we'll we'll come back at 2012 please and as i said to you yesterday please remember not to speak to anyone about poor evidence or anything relating to it over the break
01:22:45 anything relating to it over the break i understand thank you very much 20 to 12 please
01:39:50 welcome back everyone we're going to continue now uh hearing evidence from mr moore i'm just going to check that the communications have been established again hello mr moore
01:40:01 again hello mr moore are you there yes mr chairman i am and you can see me and hear me i hope i can see and hear you clearly thank you very much and uh ready to go on then i hope
01:40:12 to go on then i hope yes right thank you but then i shall invite mr millet to put some more questions to you yes thank you mr chairman mr moore i'd like to ask you now about the um
01:40:23 i'd like to ask you now about the um topic of the suspension of the rhino bond certificate after the fire in july 2017. can we go to bba three zeros one zero four two eight
01:40:45 now this is an email from claire curtis thomas to you and if we can have it blown up on your screen you'll see it more clearly um on the 10th of july 2017 at 7 53
01:40:56 um on the 10th of july 2017 at 7 53 uh uh also to john alvin and simon rowe uh subject rene suggested q a attachments reynabon suspension questions doc and the text says i
01:41:07 questions doc and the text says i apologize if you've already received this
01:41:10 this i am in double email world and wanted to make sure
01:41:14 make sure let's look at the attachment it's a bba 3010
01:41:26 now this is a q a as you can see [Music]
01:41:31 [Music] and uh it
01:41:34 and uh it uh starts with the first question why has the bba suspended the reign of on certificates
01:41:42 uh do you know who the intended audience was
01:41:45 was for this document
01:41:55 i i i'm not sure i would imagine this would be outward facing um so to people outside the bba um but but i'm not certain there was a a
01:42:07 um but but i'm not certain there was a a lot happening at this time but i suspect it was what would be our position if we suspended the reyna bond certificate i see so the public
01:42:19 public anyone who asked anyone who was interested yes yeah let's look at the first q a q why has the bba suspended the rainy bond certificate
01:42:30 bond certificate a we've been attempting to contact the certificate holders since the grenfell tower fire to establish certain facts we provided a date by which we expected a response and that date has passed in the absence of receiving the information we require
01:42:42 of receiving the information we require the bba but believes it that it has necessary and proportionate to suspend this certificate and let's go down also to the third question relating to the implications of suspension
01:42:54 suspension which says uh what are the implications of the rene bond certificate being suspended
01:43:00 suspended and then if you go down to the answer it says uh
01:43:03 says uh it means that the manufacturer cannot claim that this product is set certificated by the bba further that building and construction product professionals such as architects and designers
01:43:13 designers will not have the independent assurance afforded by the bba certification as the product's performance however the suspension of the reynobon certificate does not mean that all previous
01:43:24 does not mean that all previous installations of the raynor bond product are
01:43:26 are quotes at risk close quotes provided that previous installations were executed in accordance with the requirements of the certificate and undertaken by a suitably qualified and experienced
01:43:39 do you agree just looking at that that in fact
01:43:42 in fact previous installations would be at risk if the claims regarding fire performance made in the certificate were not accurate and had never been accurate
01:43:54 yes i would agree with you and similarly if statements in the certificate relating to building certification were out of date
01:44:06 were out of date um sorry say that question again please i'm sorry
01:44:11 i'm sorry yes i tried differently would you agree that in fact installations would be at risk if statements uh made in the certificate about compliance with the building regulations
01:44:23 compliance with the building regulations have become out of date or wrong if if they were out of date um possibly less so but certainly if they were wrong as a result of any
01:44:35 they were wrong as a result of any changes to building regulations that that yes i would agree with you yes so would you also agree that executing installations in accordance with the requirements of the
01:44:46 accordance with the requirements of the certificate where that certificate overstated the products
01:44:51 products fire performance or misstated the products fire performance would be no guarantee at all that the installation was safe
01:45:03 installation was safe yes that that follows yes
01:45:09 at this stage is it right that you haven't yet got to the bottom of the accuracy of the claims made in the bba certificate uh relating to
01:45:20 to compliance with the the building regulations so far as regards far performance
01:45:32 had got to the bottom of what do you mean uh is it right that at this stage the bba had not completed its investigation so as to satisfy itself that the claims made in the certificate for fire performance
01:45:44 in the certificate for fire performance of reigning bond 55 pe were correct that is correct so if that is correct why are you making the statement that we
01:45:55 why are you making the statement that we we see in the second half of the answer that i've just read to you well i i don't know the provenance of this document at all i can't remember
01:46:06 document at all i can't remember seeing it before but i'm sure it's just been produced before me i i don't think it was ever used um and i'm just not sure
01:46:18 ever used um and i'm just not sure why and how it's been constructed and what the purpose of it is clearly at this stage as we discussed earlier the bba was uh trying to make contact with
01:46:31 was uh trying to make contact with rayna bond to establish the position and yet suspension was likely to follow if there was no follow-up but beyond that i don't know who has written
01:46:42 who has written these responses and whether they were fully cited on all the facts and circumstances i don't believe this document was ever employed or deployed
01:46:53 employed or deployed to anybody we can see that you saw it at the time because i took you to the email can we take it that you did see it at the time
01:47:02 the time well i yes if it's copy to me whether i examined it or not in detail i i don't know this this does not seem to be a document that featured in anything subsequently right perhaps
01:47:14 in anything subsequently right perhaps you could help me with this do you can you explain why the bba was preparing
01:47:19 preparing to give assurances such as we see in the second half of that answer uh without yet having heard anything from our comic or investigated the fire performance
01:47:30 or investigated the fire performance statement on the certificate
01:47:34 um well again i think if there's a timeline we'd see where this fitted into contact with arconic
01:47:42 arconic um it would be not unreasonable to project ahead um but this this document is is not authoritative at all and
01:47:53 is not authoritative at all and i'm sure there was various pieces of thinking going on at the time it was a very um busy time and i certainly don't
01:48:04 busy time and i certainly don't i took no i took no regard to this document
01:48:07 document um at the time probably certainly subsequently it hasn't influenced me um as far as i can tell in any way so i i don't really recall it wasn't
01:48:19 so i i don't really recall it wasn't significant were you still the operations director at this time or had you yet become uh a deputy ceo um on the 10th what was the day if the day the day was
01:48:30 what was the day if the day the day was on about the 10th of july no i was i was the ops director were you in that capacity were you not interested in understanding exactly what it was
01:48:41 in understanding exactly what it was that the bba was going to tell the public about the suspension of the bba certificate yes of course um yes there wouldn't be a suspension of a
01:48:53 there wouldn't be a suspension of a certificate in these circumstances without me being closely involved and making sure everything was correct this this seems to have come from claire
01:49:04 this this seems to have come from claire curtis thomas if i'm right um and claire was not very very closely involved in in this um so her understanding and
01:49:15 in this um so her understanding and knowledge of the detail i i with all due respect to her was was not very precise at that time and no doubt as a conscientious
01:49:26 and no doubt as a conscientious operations director you would have wanted to make sure uh that whatever was going to be set to the public by way of explanation of the suspension of the bba that was
01:49:37 of the suspension of the bba that was entirely accurate and correct is that right to the best of my ability the bba
01:49:42 the bba would not mislead uh the public or indeed anybody and and i wouldn't allow anything to go out to the public realm if i could that would uh would lead to
01:49:53 if i could that would uh would lead to that
01:49:54 that outcome so no i don't think this document was was significant well uh did you think at the time when you received it on the morning of the 10th of july 2017
01:50:06 on the morning of the 10th of july 2017 that it was an insignificant document that didn't warrant your attention well it's difficult i can't i can't actually recall reading it um what what are the
01:50:18 reading it um what what are the messages either side of it was there any indication as to what happened to it um i i don't i literally do not recall this um so that's why i don't feel great weight was attached to it by
01:50:31 feel great weight was attached to it by me or anyone else uh well let me just try the question again can you explain why the vba on the face of this document was preparing to give assurances
01:50:43 preparing to give assurances like this without as at the 10th of july having heard back in full from our comic in response to the vba's questions
01:50:54 questions or investigated the truth of the claims about fire performance made in the certificate
01:51:01 um i can't explain why that would be other than if it was if it was written by claire
01:51:07 by claire curtis thomas she wasn't blessed with all of the facts and um the sentence uh however suspended the rainbow does not mean that all previous installations
01:51:18 not mean that all previous installations the rain bomb are at risk um provided that previous installation again at this stage i didn't know what was on that building um and whether um personally
01:51:29 um and whether um personally i didn't know what was on there and whether that statement um was was correct or not um so it's it's very difficult and this document couldn't have gone anywhere
01:51:40 document couldn't have gone anywhere because i don't think anyone truly understood the position at the time it's clearly uh for discussion but as i say i don't believe it went anywhere and i don't believe any member of that team
01:51:51 i don't believe any member of that team would have allowed an inaccurate document to to go out into the public realm if if we could be avoided and to the best of our knowledge i'm bound to suggest to you mr moore
01:52:03 i'm bound to suggest to you mr moore that
01:52:04 that it was irresponsibly risky for the bba to make a statement like this in circumstances where it had not yet fully satisfied itself but the accuracy of the statements made
01:52:15 but the accuracy of the statements made about fire performance in the certificate do you accept that well well no i don't think necessarily i do um agree with that um
01:52:28 this this document i don't believe went anywhere at all i don't believe it is particularly accurate um i don't believe it it's sufficiently nuanced
01:52:38 nuanced it's in the middle of um in the middle of our attempts to contact rayna bond so so it's a no claire curtis thomas made us have been simply mistaken um the
01:52:51 made us have been simply mistaken um the key the key thing is that nothing to the best of my knowledge happened to this document it clearly wasn't right so it didn't go anywhere to the best of my knowledge
01:53:03 so i don't think i agree with with the assertion
01:53:10 your knowledge did anybody tell any of the recipients of this document or claire thomas that the statement made in the second half of that answer was one that the bba could not and should not make
01:53:23 again can i see the circulation list again please yes uh if you can we need to go back to uh
01:53:34 we need to go back to uh bba four three zero is one zero four two eight
01:53:40 two eight [Applause]
01:53:46 and it's on the screen in front of you mr moore does that help
01:53:51 i'm so of those names mr alban knew a lot of the detail mr rowe knew a lot of the detail mr webb and mr beale didn't know the
01:54:03 mr webb and mr beale didn't know the detail of this they wouldn't entertain doing anything with the document and claire curtis thomas again uh wouldn't know great detail so i am sure because i'm sure you'll tell
01:54:16 i am sure because i'm sure you'll tell me if it's the case that this document wasn't circulated i don't remember the detail of telling claire to curtis thomas this is wrong or incorrect but it wasn't it wasn't a
01:54:27 or incorrect but it wasn't it wasn't a you know it wasn't an authoritative position uh piece for the bba at that time
01:54:34 time so the answer your question no i don't remember telling claire curtis thomas is wrong
01:54:39 wrong but i can say it didn't have any weight or significance
01:54:45 let's turn to a different topic i'd like to
01:54:49 to ask you to cast your mind back to a little bit a little bit later in the story january 2018. can we go to your statement at bba 50159 page four let's look together at
01:55:02 page four let's look together at paragraph 11. you say on monday the 29th of january 2018
01:55:09 2018 i met tom simons a bbc journalist at our offices and was informed by him that the bbc had information which suggested that a change had been made to the core of the reynabon pe product in
01:55:20 the core of the reynabon pe product in 2015
01:55:22 2015 and mr simons was inquiring about whether the bba was aware of this i said that we would look into the matter in the days following that meeting my inquiries at the bba indicated that we had no record of being informed
01:55:33 informed of any change to the reynabon 55 pe corp in 2015
01:55:37 in 2015 or thereafter
01:55:41 were you told by the bbc what change or changes had been made to the core of the raynor bond pe product yes
01:55:53 what mr simon had with him um an email document which he was carefully uh stewarding in my presence
01:56:06 carefully uh stewarding in my presence it had uh the large black felt tip pen through identifying details of the sender
01:56:13 sender and either he he allowed me to read it or he put it down and i read that there was a change from a translucent color
01:56:25 from a translucent color to a black color but but i read that at speed but i and but mr simons did say that was the the central matter that he was investigating
01:56:38 matter that he was investigating at the meeting did mr simon tell you anything else of his discoveries he said that he was also investigating um the fire classification
01:56:51 um the fire classification data relating to the product which i assumed meant the rainer bond pe product
01:56:59 product i wasn't clear whether he was talking about the changed core or the panels that were used at grenfell and i'm not sure he was
01:57:11 at grenfell and i'm not sure he was entirely
01:57:12 entirely clear himself at a fairly early stage what he was investigating in relation to the
01:57:18 the uh fire classification data but but i may be
01:57:21 may be mistaken as to what he believed were you at that stage concerned that mr simons
01:57:29 simons a bbc journalist had discovered something
01:57:32 something uh about reynabond panel panels that you should have known but did not know yes i was concerned let's move on uh if we go to bba 408363
01:57:51 this is an email string
01:57:57 and it's it starts on page three with the email of the 30th of january from toms diamonds to you can you see that second half of the screen and he says dear brian
01:58:10 screen and he says dear brian thanks again for the meeting yesterday i wanted to make sure that you had the url of the document which was publicly available
01:58:16 available the 2015 test result i found it here and then there's a looks like a link to something on the internet i've been looking at
01:58:27 looking at i have been looking further at it today and have realized the significance of the fact
01:58:31 the fact that this report sets out test results for both the black and grey version of the product this shows the company specifically tested both versions presumably having changed the color the result overall was c
01:58:42 result overall was c but there was the differentiation between the two versions i believe the black did better than the grave though i'm relying on basic web research on the relevant measurements of fire development so i'm checking this with an expert
01:58:53 expert however given the c rating and the fact that this was a test after a change i would assume that if the bba was not notified of a lower rating
01:59:02 rating that that that would be highly relevant regardless of the other evidence hope this helps tom
01:59:10 had tom simons referred to the 2015 test results
01:59:14 results at your meeting the previous day 29th of january
01:59:23 i can't remember um whether he i don't think he went through in detail
01:59:30 detail fire classification reports um other than that he was in possession of some
01:59:37 some i see when you see here as we've just read together i found it here colon report underlined in blue which indicates that there's a web link what was that what was the report
01:59:51 what was that what was the report what was the site he found the document
01:59:56 in i'm not entirely clear what what what that is referring to but he's sending you the url of the document that was publicly available he
02:00:07 document that was publicly available he said which is the 2015 test result which and he's telling you where he found it my question to you is what is that
02:00:13 that where did he find it um overall um if i just say where where mr simons
02:00:22 simons and i um end up he he was not able to provide to me nor was i able to get my hands on provenanced
02:00:34 get my hands on provenanced material either from arconic so directly from our iconic or directly from the cstb um this this is one of the issues i think mr simons was relying upon
02:00:47 think mr simons was relying upon a well-placed source one of his uh i think a customer and i don't believe i was ever able to go to a location and find material with
02:00:58 and find material with a provenance linking it directly to arconic
02:01:02 arconic or to the cstb when you got this email did you click on the word report that you can see
02:01:12 i must have done yes what report um did that reveal
02:01:19 um as i say i can't remember specifically what it was but i it was not something directly from archonic or cstb
02:01:30 directly from archonic or cstb is the is my best recollection it was it was
02:01:35 was not from one of those two sources to the best of my recollection can you remember what it was from or who it was from
02:01:46 no i think no i can't um subsequently mr simon sent me cstb what appeared to be cstb
02:01:54 cstb reports with a whole litany of different email addresses and and attached them and i couldn't root anything back definitively to cstb or to arconic
02:02:07 definitively to cstb or to arconic and i think this was in that category but but i can't specifically tell you what the
02:02:12 what the email address was at the other end of it believe
02:02:15 believe believe me can i can i make it clear to the inquiry i was very keen to provenance material back to arconic or to to cstb
02:02:28 back to arconic or to to cstb looking a little lower down the email you can see that you're told there by mr simons that reynabon pe was classified a c after this change did you understand
02:02:39 a c after this change did you understand uh that to have been a classification in accordance with the european testing regime that was the assumption yes
02:02:48 yes was that your assumption yes that was my forgive me that was my assumption um and did you understand in that moment that that classification
02:02:59 in that moment that that classification c was inconsistent with the claim that the standard reynabond product had achieved a class b as set out in both the first
02:03:10 b as set out in both the first and the second issues of the reyna bond bba certificate yes is that something that you found troubling
02:03:18 troubling yes did you ask yourself i wonder how mr simon's abc journalists could have found this out and the bba had not
02:03:29 found this out and the bba had not well if i can go to the point i made yesterday
02:03:32 yesterday just the absolute importance of of whistleblowers um and you know the act the lack of a good system in this industry to collate
02:03:43 good system in this industry to collate this intelligence um so i think mr simons had that the advantage of of having well-placed sources available to him where whereas i didn't i was keen to
02:03:55 where whereas i didn't i was keen to explore
02:03:56 explore what mr simons was providing to me um but
02:03:59 but the key issue as i say was provenance and and i i never got to a point where i really understood that these documents emanated from um
02:04:10 emanated from um arconic or cstb but as you know in the inquiry knows separately i was trying to pursue these issues directly with arconic to give me the material that they had
02:04:21 to give me the material that they had which would be route 1 to to getting the information i needed
02:04:26 needed well you say that mr simons had the advantage of having well-placed sources available to to him whereas you didn't does that tell us
02:04:35 us that there was something structurally wrong with the bba such that it couldn't get hold of underlying test data but someone like tom simons could
02:04:47 but someone like tom simons could well again i i am not sure that mr simons ever got his hand or certainly when i was speaking to him got his hands on providence material
02:04:59 providence material from uh arconic or from cstb i may be wrong that he did but i do not remember receiving anything that had that provenance um so to that
02:05:11 that had that provenance um so to that extent
02:05:12 extent we were equally in difficulty but um he he had the benefit of of more about the balance of probabilities for media and publishing
02:05:23 for media and publishing uh purposes than i had in terms of contract
02:05:28 contract requirement with with arconic so so he could do more with what he had whereas i i felt i needed um a bit more substantive evidence about
02:05:39 um a bit more substantive evidence about the link to arconic and to cstb again i assure the inquiry that i was trying to find this out directly
02:05:47 directly from from iconic as as you know i'm not sure that's an answer to my question mr moore but maybe we'll revisit it again in due course um can we look at your response to his
02:05:58 um can we look at your response to his email which you sent on the uh 1st of february 2018 which you'll find on page 2 of this email run
02:06:11 you say
02:06:15 hello tom thank you for coming to see us can you see that there uh it's copper to john alvin hello tom thank you for coming to see us about this sensitive matter i'm grateful that you shared the background with us and we've undertaken to preserve
02:06:26 and we've undertaken to preserve reasonable confidentiality as i explained the bba has to balance its contractual obligations to our clients with our obligations as the uk's leading certification body we've checked our records and as a result of doing so we would
02:06:38 and as a result of doing so we would wish to discuss the matters you raised with us with our client i cannot be more specific right now as it is right that we speak to our client to seek their views however i've noticed that the pe product
02:06:49 however i've noticed that the pe product has been withdrawn from the market there is not an immediate and pressing need for us to engage with them but we need to do so as soon as possible i'll give you a call to discuss when you are proposing to approach the companies say that as far as possible we ensure
02:07:01 say that as far as possible we ensure our comms with them do not avoidably threaten your story can you suggest a good time later today to discuss the timing issue please
02:07:11 what contractual obligations were you referring to there in respect of iconic um that uh disclosing info
02:07:22 that uh disclosing info disclosing information about them and their products and our engagement with them without their knowledge or consent
02:07:34 knowledge or consent was potentially a contractual problem why because of confidentiality concerns contractual complications of competition because of confidentiality
02:07:45 competition because of confidentiality now you say that there was no pressing need for you to engage with arconic because they'd withdrawn pe from the market
02:07:52 market uh that's what you say in the um pre-penultimate paragraph did it not occur to you at the time that that the product reynabon 55 pe um had been on the market
02:08:04 reynabon 55 pe um had been on the market for many years uh accompanied by an inaccurate and misleading certificate so far as regards fire performance
02:08:13 um of course it had been on the market for
02:08:17 for for for a long time but the immediate and pressing need you know the public safety criteria because it had been withdrawn um yeah yes so i think i think what i've
02:08:28 um yeah yes so i think i think what i've said there is is technically accurate um and i didn't want mr um mr simon's time scales to be mine um but we did make the point want to
02:08:41 um but we did make the point want to want to do deal with them as soon as possible so um yeah that that statement is is is my thinking at the time
02:08:52 is is my thinking at the time um yes my question really is why wasn't there an immediate and pressing need for you to engage with arconic given that it for some 10 years previous
02:09:06 that it for some 10 years previous uh reynabond 55pe had been sold with a certificate that was inaccurate and misleading so far as regards fire performance
02:09:18 so far as regards fire performance um at this stage of course i didn't know exactly what was on the building and we were trying to establish this um uh from the we've been trying to establish this from
02:09:29 we've been trying to establish this from the uh from from the company we'd had some um contact with them um and i yes i was keen to very keen to understand what had been on on the
02:09:40 to understand what had been on on the building uh at that time that there was active discussions um going on with um with uh with mr simons to try and get to
02:09:54 with uh with mr simons to try and get to the bottom of all this so um yeah there was a there was a pressing need i don't think it was immediate because there was nothing on the market
02:10:06 there was nothing on the market because it was drawn the certificate but i did want to get to the bottom of this as soon as possible as i've said what did you mean by ensuring your comms didn't threaten the story bbc's story he was
02:10:18 the story bbc's story he was extremely concerned and this is really the point of this email though though i couldn't i couldn't tell him that
02:10:27 him that we didn't know about this black core it wasn't appropriate to tell him um i didn't want he was very worried about his story being spiked by the bba um rushing to
02:10:39 by the bba um rushing to to to arconic and okay well thank you i wanted to keep reasonable um cooperation with him because he seemed to have good
02:10:50 because he seemed to have good intelligence that i wanted um so i wanted to make sure that as far as possible our needs did not conflict with his and as you know within a few days of
02:11:01 and as you know within a few days of this i was um contacting narcotic but i wanted to clear with him first that i could i could do so in a way that would not
02:11:09 would not alienate him from us let's then look at how you approach the matter with arconic can we look at uh the email of the 6th of february 2018
02:11:20 of february 2018 it was sent to claude verlet and his follow-up
02:11:24 follow-up that we'll find at bba3010769 and i'll need to go to page 22 in that document
02:11:37 uh you'll see this is your email of the 6th of february 2 claude verlay timed at 1727 and it's entitled information from the bbc confidential
02:11:48 bbc confidential and it reads diverse to verde the bba has been contacted by bbc television about a program they are planning to broadcast in respect of the fatal fire at grenfell tower in london in june 2017. the bbc has
02:12:01 in london in june 2017. the bbc has informed us that in 2015 iconic may have made some changes to the pe material in the core of the reynabond pe product and which may not have been communicated to the bba we've not commented on this to the bbc
02:12:14 we've not commented on this to the bbc but would we would like to understand whether or not any changes to the core of the pe product occurred in 2015 and whether or not you say that this was communicated to the bba i'd be grateful for your response by the close of business on
02:12:25 response by the close of business on monday the 12th of february 2018 please now we've seen no response from our connect to this email and neither in the bba records nor in any of the iconic records
02:12:36 any of the iconic records uh do you does that accord with your recollection that you never actually got an answer to this email um that that's
02:12:47 um that that's that's correct though of course i kept on at this for weeks and months afterwards but but specifically to this email on that day or in the days immediately no i didn't get a response
02:12:59 immediately no i didn't get a response indeed and let's go to bba zero one zero seven six nine page twenty four too late two two pages on we can see that you sent a further email to claude schmidt
02:13:09 schmidt uh uh on the 14th of february 2018 as you can see there affording uh your email information from the bbc confidential confidential
02:13:21 confidential uh and you say in the first line you're trying to gain a response and perspective from our conic this is sent to mr schmidt and you've sent him the email you'd sent to mr verle on the 6th of february
02:13:34 verle on the 6th of february um we can see from this email and indeed the email we've just looked at that you didn't ask mr verlay about the 2015 classification reports and the class
02:13:44 class c for pe did you no why is that well first of all to establish whether there was there was any substance in this
02:13:56 any substance in this at all um i suspected there was but i wanted to hear without putting giving away more than was prudent at that stage i wanted to hear what they had to say about it
02:14:08 about it had you agreed with mr simons not to mention it so that mr simons would be able to continue with his investigations no i didn't i didn't
02:14:20 investigations no i didn't i didn't agree
02:14:20 agree anything in detail like that with mr simons at all um no why did you not tell the archonic
02:14:31 no why did you not tell the archonic that you had learnt about the existence of some 2015 classification reports which had class c and demand an explanation
02:14:42 explanation for why you have not been provided with that information or the test reports and an explanation as about why the certificate still said be
02:14:54 all that was to come um this as we know um this went on for quite a period of time uh trying to elicit this information at this stage
02:15:07 elicit this information at this stage what did they have to say did they even accept
02:15:11 accept i think there could have been a perfectly missing explanation i wasn't sure it would be it was trying to draw them out to to tell me what they had to say about this issue
02:15:20 issue why the softly softly approached mr moore why not just tell them what you knew um well i not not the way i chose to approach this
02:15:31 approach this get the dialogue going um what do they have to tell me did they agree did they not agree did they have anything to say at all about this
02:15:40 this that was my starting point mr simons may not necessarily have been completely correct
02:15:45 correct as i say he didn't have provenance as far as i could see other than the email about the pe core and my
02:15:52 and my my approach my strategy was to draw out iconic to tell me what they wanted to tell me initially and of course i would be following it up why didn't you send them the link to the report of the url
02:16:06 the link to the report of the url uh that mr simons had sent you and asked for an explanation no um i i didn't think that was appropriate um they they would have information
02:16:18 um they they would have information they would send me information directly that they had there are so many documents swirling around
02:16:26 around without provenance at this time as i said before on the internet even the journalists and media know this was potentially really quite confusing
02:16:36 confusing iconic here's the issue what do you know and then follow up that with what have you got was the approach i thought was was best now we know from your statement of paragraphs 14 and 15 that you
02:16:48 of paragraphs 14 and 15 that you received no response in writing to this email but you did get a phone call from mr verley
02:16:53 mr verley and i think the 19th of oh i think the 19th of february 2018 uh can we go to page five of your witness statement please
02:17:12 and that you uh see there uh
02:17:20 that in paragraph 50 i'm so sorry it's escaped from my screen i've not got it you say on monday the 19th of february 2018
02:17:28 2018 at about 10 30 a.m i received a telephone call from mr verde he explained that there had been a change of color in of the pe core from translucent to black this had occurred in may 2015 and was
02:17:40 this had occurred in may 2015 and was because of the market finding the black color aesthetically more pleasing where the edges of the cladding were visible when i asked him whether the bba had been informed of this change was to very explain that in quotes august 2015 the bba had visited
02:17:53 quotes august 2015 the bba had visited their manufacturing location and had been advised of this change of color but no action had been taken by the bba
02:17:59 the bba mr very undertook at my request to email me to this effect i made a brief note of this conversation in my day book at the time of the call and i produced a copy of this note as my exhibit bm2 now bm2 is that bba
02:18:11 as my exhibit bm2 now bm2 is that bba three zeros one zero seven seven zero if we can look at that please page three of that document you can find the note on the on the right hand side if you look right on the
02:18:24 right hand side if you look right on the right hand side you can see it says claude verlet 10 30 am and then below that and correct me if i get this wrong it says um
02:18:33 says um change for translucent to black does not affect fire and is an aesthetic issue you can see the edges which is not good for the market so our clients
02:18:44 for the market so our clients asked us to change to black which we did we just go down to the next page please
02:18:54 which we did can you see top left of the screen
02:18:57 screen we had a visit in august 2015 and they did not and they i think that says did not tell us about it
02:19:09 about it the order and then it says the order to something can you just read what that says please yeah the auditor did not
02:19:17 did not take enough about it right and then underneath that changes fire regulations question mark flat or cassette
02:19:28 cassette nothing to do
02:19:31 now in your statement as we've just seen it you you say that you had a visit in august 2015 and this is him telling you this yes they did not tell us
02:19:42 us um could you clarify what it is that mr verlet actually said to you did he say they did not tell us or did he say
02:19:54 they did not tell us or did he say they did not take enough about it he he said both of these things mr verlet's english was not
02:20:05 mr verlet's english was not um the very best um he paused over his words and some of his phrases were not possibly the way you and i would would
02:20:16 the way you and i would would describe things um his his meaning and what i took from it was
02:20:23 was the auditor they raised with the auditor that that there was material in binders and folders we understand now and they had told the auditor about this relating to the change of color
02:20:36 relating to the change of color uh from translucent to black and the fire test that went with it and the order didn't tell us to do anything about it and the order did not take the material did not take enough information about
02:20:48 did not take enough information about it away with him at the time of the audit
02:20:52 audit that is what uh mr verla um conveyed to me
02:20:58 me mr verla was confirming to you in that conversation at the least that there had indeed been a change in the composition of the product yes yes were you concerned about the accuracy of
02:21:10 were you concerned about the accuracy of the claims in respect of rayna bond pe that had been on the bba certificate in the light of what mr verlo was now telling you
02:21:20 yes yes did you discuss the classification of the pe product with mr verley
02:21:26 verley no
02:21:29 now you say in your statement that mr verley undertook to send you an email in relation to the discussion you'd had with him is it right to say that he did not in fact email you as he had indicated he would that's correct
02:21:41 indicated he would that's correct did you press him to do so um
02:21:48 no i think the next the next i remember is contact from his boss mr schmidt
02:21:58 can we then move on to the story with mr simons again i say move on we move sideways same day bba three's bba 4-0 is 9147.
02:22:10 bba 4-0 is 9147. um there's a further email chain between you and tom simons of the bbc on that day 19th of february 2018.
02:22:18 2018. if we go to page two we can see that he writes to you uh on that day at 1205 uh re-cladding brahi bryant as promised
02:22:30 uh re-cladding brahi bryant as promised we've uncovered a series of classification reports resulting from tests commissioned by our colleague stroke alcoa between 2011 and 2015. these are attached the testing was done by the french cstb but are not currently
02:22:42 by the french cstb but are not currently available through the cstb website as you'll see in only one test in february 2011 does rainer bond pe achieve the b european rating as detailed on the product's bba certificate
02:22:53 product's bba certificate following that there were two tests in which the product was rated e possibly because of incomplete tests and two where the rating was c we do not believe the bba was notified about these tests but obviously this is
02:23:04 about these tests but obviously this is something you're investigating we've had some contact with the company though arconic has yet to give us an on the record statement because we have said we are carrying out additional research which produced the attachment
02:23:15 research which produced the attachment our feeling is that for now we'll wait to see how the company responds to you it would be helpful if you could let me know what happens your end best wishes tom
02:23:23 tom and if we go up the page to page one at the exhibit rather to page one we can see that you forwarded this email on it won please
02:23:36 you forwarded this email on to valentina amarozzo
02:23:39 amarozzo at the same day in fact five minutes later 12 10
02:23:47 and you attach a raft of what look like cstb reports and you say can we have pl we have that back on the screen please
02:24:02 documents i'm so sorry mr mall the documents disappeared you'll need to have it back
02:24:16 bba four zero is nine one four seven page one
02:24:31 what if something's happened uh mr miller have we got a problem with uh putting up documents it hasn't appeared
02:24:44 and i'm assuming the witness can't see it either mr moore am i right you can't see the documents i can't i can't see documents right well um it may just be that reference then
02:24:57 um it may just be that reference then but it was there now it's disappeared i don't know whether there's a general problem
02:25:04 i don't want to continue to ask questions mr chairman without the document even though in fact um
02:25:21 i'll recite the document reference again it was correct because we had it on the screen oh there it is very good um right good uh now you can see from that that there is a rast of what looked like reports attached to
02:25:32 what looked like reports attached to your email to valentino amarozo yes um do i take it you got those it must be the case
02:25:39 the case uh from uh tom simons yes yes and you say v another coincidence bbc just forwarded all of these these there would seem to be quite a few that we're unaware of there are some seven
02:25:53 we're unaware of there are some seven cstb classification reports attached uh and they include uh four in particular and i'll just i'll just recite them there's ra 13033
02:26:06 there's ra 13033 classification report for rayna bond p e cassette
02:26:09 cassette 4th december 2014 showing class e and that's at bba four zeros nine one five one
02:26:16 five one there was ra 140339 classification report for reign of 155 pe riveted system
02:26:22 system issued same day 4th december 2014 classification c s 2 d naught b a 4 0 is 9 1 5
02:26:29 9 1 5 2. there was ra 15 0 double zero classification report for rayner bond 55 p e riveted system 22nd of september 2015 also showing cs2
02:26:41 22nd of september 2015 also showing cs2 d naught bb840 is 9153 and also ra 15020 classification report for ray nobody 55 pe cassette system
02:26:52 for ray nobody 55 pe cassette system uh also issued 22nd december of september 2015 also showing classification e a pba four zeros nine one five four
02:27:03 a pba four zeros nine one five four and you say in your email there would be there would seem to be quite a few that we are unaware of do you agree uh looking at this that on the 19th of february you were told in both the email and the attachments
02:27:16 in both the email and the attachments that following uh 2011 reynabond pe had achieved only an e-classification in relation to its rivet form and an e in respect of cassette
02:27:29 and then later a c in respect of rivet well um as i said before if you if you read again what mr simons has said these are not
02:27:39 are not documents that are necessarily sourced from
02:27:44 from cstb these these are open source documents
02:27:48 documents and at the same time i had i think miss amarozo and maybe someone else doing a similar exercise of what is out on on the media uh what is out in the in in the uh on the internet that has
02:28:01 in in the uh on the internet that has provenance to arconic or to cstb um there is no doubt that that i had suspicions um that we had not been given the
02:28:13 um that we had not been given the correct the full picture um but but this was not conclusive in its own right my approach and my strategy was only if it comes from arconic or only if
02:28:24 only if it comes from arconic or only if it comes from cstb would it be solid but these are cstb reports aren't they um they update appear to be um but again
02:28:36 um they update appear to be um but again if you look at mr simon's um comments he has acquired them from i i know not where okay let's take this in stages did you read these reports when you received
02:28:48 read these reports when you received them
02:28:49 them and me immediately then no um i i didn't i think i can't remember what else i was doing more pressing but i refer i forwarded them on to um
02:29:00 but i refer i forwarded them on to um valent
02:29:01 valent well as at the name the the named people there who who are familiar with this with this case for them to look at them did you not sit down with them at least
02:29:13 down with them at least just briefly and compare what said on these these reports with what was said on the certificate um certainly not then but i am sure at some point that that i did and and it is clear
02:29:27 that that i did and and it is clear that what these documents were saying if correct
02:29:30 correct was at odds with uh the bba's understanding of of class b for the rainer bond product but as you know i couldn't come back to it i was still pushing
02:29:42 it i was still pushing and continue to push arconic at the same time
02:29:46 time to provide us with information which it had
02:29:49 had it was the important uh factor and player in this uh with all due respect to mr simons in the bbc
02:29:56 the bbc not necessarily uh information that he wanted to provide to us it was great intelligence valuable intelligence but the most important thing was what did arconic have to say about this
02:30:08 did arconic have to say about this did you see from these reports that both rivet and cassette had achieved classifications different from the
02:30:15 from the bba certificate yes yes
02:30:22 did that trouble you yes yes
02:30:27 did the bba consider at that point suspending our conics bba certificate but the the certificate in respect of uh
02:30:38 but the the certificate in respect of uh pe had had been withdrawn i believe at this stage um because it was no longer in use for high-rise or for
02:30:50 high-rise or for or for other use so there was no bba certificate for pe uh in respect of fr there still was
02:31:01 uh in respect of fr there still was but what i can tell the inquiry at this stage is that the bba was taking extensive legal advice about the handling of the bb the bbc
02:31:13 about the handling of the bb the bbc requirement to
02:31:17 get information from us um our contractual obligations to our conic at that stage and also um making disclosures to public so our
02:31:28 um making disclosures to public so our lawyers and our council were involved in assisting
02:31:32 assisting me and us at uh at this stage did you or anybody at the bba contact the cstb directly to verify these reports and ask them whether there were any others
02:31:44 whether there were any others that related to reynabon 55 pe that they had
02:31:47 had yes i asked mr rowe and or mr alban to contact cstb at quite an early stage
02:31:58 cstb at quite an early stage because that was the other route there were two channels of provenance one from arconic
02:32:02 arconic and one from cstb and we had been making inquiries i believe through miss amarozo or mr mr alban of the cstb website which now no longer had material on it
02:32:15 now no longer had material on it and i understood that either mr or mr old but maybe both had had contacts at cstb which i didn't have
02:32:22 have and and to see if csdb would be really willing to release information to us and and the response that i got back was for various commercial reasons
02:32:34 for various commercial reasons that they weren't willing to assist us which left archonic as the primary source of provenance for me
02:32:41 me which i continue to pursue did it not come as something of a shock to you to discover that there were all these reports showing dramatically worse classification for rayner bond pe
02:32:54 worse classification for rayner bond pe than the certificate had done um i was i was i was very concerned um and the potential for the bba having
02:33:05 um and the potential for the bba having been been
02:33:06 been been misled um i did that that was certainly in my mind now well how could this happen and also of course that the bba had misled or could be misleading
02:33:18 misled or could be misleading users of the certificates were yeah weighing on my mind at this time so i had two things to investigate at this stage
02:33:26 stage the change of color from pe uh from uh translucent to black and also the the fire classification of the products
02:33:36 products that had been used at the grenfell tower
02:33:42 let's go to bba 409746 please
02:33:54 this is an email
02:33:58 that you sent to john alban and valentina amarozzo on the 23rd of february 2018 at 12 10 if you can
02:34:08 something's gone wrong wrong um did not come back
02:34:12 come back um bba 4-0 is 9746
02:34:21 bba four zero is nine seven four six i'm sorry mr moore about about this
02:34:46 bba four zeros 9746
02:34:53 not met
02:34:56 bba
02:35:10 yes here it comes right this is an email from you to john alban and valentia tina amarozzo uh on the 23rd of february 2018. i
02:35:21 uh on the 23rd of february 2018. i received a call you say from mr schmidt at arconic re-reina bombed see my response below in summary he was more interested in the bbc and how we were going to handle inquiries than the substantive matter
02:35:33 inquiries than the substantive matter of whether the bba had provided had been provided with current data about the fire rating of reyna bond pe i felt that he was somewhat invasive having referred to matters to his board
02:35:45 having referred to matters to his board so i've given him a week to respond as to what the cstb fire ratings were and why we weren't told why we were not told if they were different to our
02:35:56 different to our cert value we'll say if there could be issues with any other cert i think reina bond fr is still certificated if we get no or no satisfactory answer i would like to discuss our options
02:36:08 would like to discuss our options did you tell mr schmidt in that call that you're referring to there that you had seen a series of reports generated by the cstb showing
02:36:22 generated by the cstb showing materially worse classifications to reinaborn pe than the certificate has historically claimed
02:36:32 um i i i don't think at any point um i i put to mr mr schmidt what we had from the bbc
02:36:45 from the bbc um my strategy was for him to provide me with information whilst it may sound fanciful my experience if you forewarn people
02:36:59 my experience if you forewarn people you know just bad things can happen so try i.e hiding destruction uh changing of documents um
02:37:10 uh changing of documents um it's very simple iconic tell me what you've got show me what you've got about the rayner bond pe product so so no i
02:37:22 pe product so so no i i wasn't and i was still troubled by the fact that
02:37:26 fact that they claimed that all this had been shown to it to an auditor um i wasn't convinced that was true and there was therefore the potential for
02:37:37 for for dishonesty you know i'm not i'm not making allegations that they were this on it's just what i was thinking of at the time so no i wasn't going to alert um mr schmidt or his people by this day
02:37:50 um mr schmidt or his people by this day there was no real reason why they could not afford it to me the material that i had asked for so no i wasn't going to alert him and i wanted to
02:37:59 wanted to him to provide information to me that was my
02:38:03 was my uh thinking my approach which of course dragged on for some time after this as as well
02:38:10 as well and you can see i hope that i began to reel them in around this to the point where well they were deliberately choosing not to provide me with information
02:38:22 provide me with information about the pe product in my opinion they were deliberately choosing not to tell me about material they had i see so you made a is it right you made
02:38:34 i see so you made a is it right you made a positive strategic decision not to confront mr schmidt with the reports that you'd had the materially different classifications
02:38:45 the materially different classifications that they
02:38:45 that they showed and demand full open draws disclosure of all fire test data from him at that time that's correct because i also knew that with such a terrible
02:38:57 with such a terrible um tragedy that had unfolded there would be the police and there would be this inquiry coming very soon
02:39:05 very soon and i was not going to affirmatively alert mr schmidt and co about stuff that they may use to their potential to their advantage
02:39:17 potential to their advantage so yes this this was my conscious approach it was either going to be from cstb
02:39:22 cstb or from conic and this other this other information was helpful intelligence but it was not definitive unless it come from archonic given what you told us earlier that you began to suspect
02:39:35 began to suspect uh that archonic we're misleading you or stringing you along or being evasive what reason did you have to think that what they did tell you
02:39:45 you that pursuant to your strategy would be true or reliable well step one was to hear what they had to say and get my hands on the material they claimed to have
02:39:56 they claimed to have so recover and retain was was the approach that i preferred to take but i was not going to affirmatively alert them of other inquiries the bbc is a very
02:40:07 of other inquiries the bbc is a very capable investigative body it had its own means and methods to bring information to the public realm i wasn't going to interfere with that unduly but i wasn't going to positively
02:40:19 unduly but i wasn't going to positively alert
02:40:20 alert our conic
02:40:23 now well you can see below this email uh an email
02:40:27 an email that you uh sent to mr schmidt relating to the call it's quite a long document if we can just uh scroll down to page two you'll see it that same day 23rd of february uh at 13
02:40:39 that same day 23rd of february uh at 13 20
02:40:40 20 and you say
02:40:43 uh you say mr dear mr schmidt thank you for your telephone call today clarifying that you would not be commenting to the bbc about matters related to grenfell and that the bbc would be undertaking further inquiries before releasing
02:40:55 further inquiries before releasing a program but your request i indicated that the bba does not discuss commercially sensitive information with the media
02:41:02 the media and then if we go to the next paragraph you say from the bba's perspective i explained that we had not received a written response from our colleagues with a question i posted in my email of sixth february to mr verlais about the fire test data related to pe
02:41:14 about the fire test data related to pe we've been told that the cstb has provided a number of reports about the fire performance of the pe product and if that if his information is correct the bba does not believe that it has seen this information this would be particularly significant
02:41:26 this would be particularly significant if the ratings were was were different to that which appeared in our certificate i'm sure that our conic will have investigated thoroughly the timeline of this product and so i believe that the required information is
02:41:37 believe that the required information is readily available although reynabon pe is no longer certificated other products are and we need to understand whether we have included the most accurate available information in them to ensure that our certificates do not
02:41:48 to ensure that our certificates do not mislead any user i also explained if there have been historical issues then provided that they're made known to us we will work with you to address them where possible and then you say this in summary the bba
02:41:59 and then you say this in summary the bba requires of our comic that you clarify to us the position in respect of the fire rating provided by the various cstb fire reports if they exist that relate to rain upon pe and whether there are issues that may
02:42:10 and whether there are issues that may affect other products or systems that are currently certificated by the bba
02:42:15 bba then you give a deadline of 5 pm on friday the 2nd of march 2018. then you say if it is not provided or without good explanation the bba will have to consider
02:42:26 have to consider whether we continue to have confidence in other certificated products stroke systems uh now uh you set that deadline uh is that your that was your demand
02:42:39 uh is that your that was your demand wasn't it
02:42:40 wasn't it for disclosure um it was it was a demand for disclosure yes
02:42:47 yes and then if you go on uh to the next document you can see claude schmidt's response
02:42:54 response if we go to bba three zeroes one zero seven six nine bba three zeros one zero seven six nine
02:43:05 page twenty nine
02:43:14 this is an email from claude schmidt on the 28th of february 2018. thank you for your email the csdb does indeed have a number of classification reports to the renault bond pe which has been made publicly available on the cstb
02:43:26 been made publicly available on the cstb website
02:43:27 website when the bba carried out its last audit on site in september 2017 we provided binders with those classification reports and underlying tests data for both reynabond pe and fr
02:43:39 tests data for both reynabond pe and fr to the auditor who indicated to us that for the purposes of this of his audit he was not interested in them those documents were kept in house at our merkstein facility and would have been available to the bba during prior
02:43:50 been available to the bba during prior audits
02:43:50 audits i'm happy to send those documents to you now if you'd like and then he answers some other questions uh and then at the end says uh to avoid any problems i therefore
02:44:01 uh to avoid any problems i therefore think it would be best for you to speak to our lawyer teresa hitchcock at the law firm dla piper cc'd here she will be in a better position to answer any questions that you have now you deal with this email in your
02:44:12 now you deal with this email in your witness statement to paragraph 17. can we can we look at that page five of your statement please
02:44:32 your statement please and you say there uh you recite the statement
02:44:35 statement uh and what's in it and then in the middle of the paragraph you say mr schmidt appeared to be suggesting that the bba had been provided with the opportunity and means to become aware of changes to the renault pe core
02:44:47 changes to the renault pe core but he stopped short of saying that we had been informed in the same email mr schmidt also advised that we should deal with his lawyer mrs teresa hitchcock at dna piper llp if you go to the next page of your
02:44:59 llp if you go to the next page of your statement
02:45:00 statement paragraph 18 you say this by way of uh extra i was concerned about the implication of mr schmidt's email as it inferred
02:45:12 of mr schmidt's email as it inferred that the bba should have been made aware should have been aware of a change to the pe core but it was my understanding that we were not aware there is an obligation on our clients to inform us of changes to a product not simply to generally direct us
02:45:25 not simply to generally direct us towards binders for example now to your knowledge mr moore would technical assessors such as sean o'neill look at fire classification reports during an audit
02:45:37 classification reports during an audit or ask for them to be produced for inspection um
02:45:47 i i'm not certain whether it would apply in every case or in some cases
02:45:54 um but but particularly if if it was said here that given this very important case that this company had drawn our
02:46:05 that this company had drawn our attention to to material and it hadn't been looked at then
02:46:10 then then that is very significant
02:46:16 did you receive the files or binders which mr schmidt offered to send you no i never received um these these
02:46:27 no i never received um these these files and i don't know if we'll cover it off but you you'll see from the subsequent email chain i spent a lot of time trying to get my hands on what he had
02:46:37 had almost promised in that email yes i think the next thing that happens is it is that you were invited to meet a representative of dla piper iconic
02:46:48 a representative of dla piper iconic solicitors for a coffee and a chat yes yes and that meat meeting happened on the 5th of march 2018 didn't it
02:46:59 the 5th of march 2018 didn't it it did it happened i think at a meeting at a cafe away from your office that's correct uh do you know why that meeting took place at a cafe away from your office
02:47:12 place at a cafe away from your office and not at your office miss uh hitchcock politely declined to me to our officers right um yeah did she give you a reason
02:47:26 right um yeah did she give you a reason no um she didn't yeah there was some confusion about where we would meet um but wherever we were going to end up in her view was going to be somewhere outside a
02:47:39 was going to be somewhere outside a formal building either hers or mine and it was going to be for a coffee and a chat why why would i have to be away from your offices
02:47:50 your offices and for such an informal setting or occasion well um i was concerned about this and i was suspicious
02:48:01 suspicious about why this would be so my concerns and suspicions were that this would look like some attempt to cooperate with the bba
02:48:12 cooperate with the bba and and and by time but i was also concerned
02:48:17 concerned if there was misleading to be done um that that kind of informal environment would be more conducive so i was concerned about this
02:48:31 concerned about this now you tell us in your statement of paragraph 24 on it i don't think there's a need to go to it that it was during this meeting you were told by ms hitchcock that mr schmidt was preparing a file for
02:48:42 that mr schmidt was preparing a file for you of
02:48:42 you of all fire test reports is that right that is correct and is it right summarizing what happened after that 5th of march 2018 that despite further
02:48:53 5th of march 2018 that despite further requests from you in march and april 2018 neither are conic nor dna piper its solicitors ever sent you the full suite of test
02:49:04 ever sent you the full suite of test reports or classification reports for pe or fr reyna bond 55 they they i certainly saw nothing about pe and i did receive
02:49:17 about pe and i did receive um a bundle of fr having chased and chased and chased which is what i then sent off to to the inquiry because i understood the inquiry hadn't seen those
02:49:28 hadn't seen those so i did see some more fr material i don't know if it was everything that they had but i did see it receive some more
02:49:37 some more did there come a time when you wondered why it was that you received fr but no pe
02:49:42 pe material well as as time went on my suspicions were aroused there was something
02:49:50 something seriously amiss about the pe and the fire classifications that was the only conclusion i could draw about this
02:50:02 i could draw about this the other hypothesis i had was that if there was nothing wrong with them and
02:50:10 archonic was just going to make disclosure to the public inquiry and didn't want the embarrassment of disclosure you know potentially happening to us when it should be to us they should have told us this in clear terms or clearer
02:50:22 terms or clearer terms um but i i was running more about my suspicion that there was something awry here then there was a legitimate reason for not disclosing it i may be wrong but that those were my suspicions
02:50:36 that those were my suspicions given your suspicions why did you not write a formal letter to arconic demanding that in compliance with their contractual obligations they turned over to you
02:50:47 to you all relevant test data and classification data for rainer bond 55 in pae and in fr uh right the way back to 2008
02:51:00 and in fr uh right the way back to 2008 and
02:51:00 and before that when the certificate was being drafted well by by this stage into april i had made
02:51:08 made numerous requests i don't think it could have been
02:51:11 have been clearer what i was looking for and i was taking legal advice about how to seed
02:51:18 to seed and then it got to the point in in april where i was pleased when we were contacted
02:51:23 contacted by the metropolitan police service the first
02:51:27 first authority or agency that approached us and i i made i made my disclosure about my suspicions uh to to the detective who came to came to see us and and expected the
02:51:39 came to see us and and expected the metropolitan police to take this forward i i was really quite seriously concerned about what may be going on in the background and i think it required a more formal
02:51:50 and i think it required a more formal investigation than i think the bba could sustain
02:51:58 now on the basis that you've given our conic ample opportunity to provide the documents requested and you were aware that they'd made no full disclosure of
02:52:09 full disclosure of the fire classification reports in respect of pe why did the bba not take action
02:52:18 what action the the pe corps had been removed uh sorry the p had been removed from the certificate and the fr certificate was still extant and i was taking legal advice
02:52:30 and i was taking legal advice about that position as to whether that should continue and when is only when
02:52:40 dr lane's report uh showed that she had other material that we hadn't seen and we had material that she hadn't seen
02:52:49 seen that that the advice i was acting to meant we should we should move and what did you do which was to
02:53:00 and what did you do which was to suspend and withdraw the certificate for fr
02:53:05 fr indeed and why didn't you do that at a much earlier time before the publication or rather the provision of access to the bba of uh to barbara lane's
02:53:17 to the bba of uh to barbara lane's report
02:53:18 report on the 2nd of november 2018. um personally i would have uh liked to have done that sooner
02:53:29 done that sooner well you say personally i would have liked to have done that sooner you were i think by this time uh deputy chief executive officer of the bba weren't you yes i was um but as i say i was
02:53:42 yes i was um but as i say i was taking legal advice um about the situation so does it come to this that even though you had been aware from as early as
02:53:55 aware from as early as february 2018 mr simons that there were cstb reports showing a materially lower classification
02:54:07 classification for pe and for fr than the certificate stated you didn't act to suspend or withdraw that certificate until after the 2nd of november 2018
02:54:21 until after the 2nd of november 2018 when you saw dr barbara lane's report
02:54:25 when it got to so this we've dealt with the cstp
02:54:29 the cstp uh the mr simon's position which which i did discuss with the with our lawyers about um
02:54:35 about um providence etc um that they were not they were not they were
02:54:42 were intelligence but they weren't evidence um
02:54:45 um and it was not yes it's a fact it wasn't until
02:54:49 until dr lane's report came through um that the bba moved to suspend and withdraw the fr certificate that that is a fact do you accept that
02:55:02 that that is a fact do you accept that you could and should have done it far earlier in 2018 uh at the latest at the time when you realized
02:55:10 realized that the certificate uh and the fire test data didn't match well the the only point where the bba had evidence of that
02:55:23 had evidence of that evidence not intelligence or not information that was all over the internet the only authoritative time when the bba was aware of that was dr lane's
02:55:35 aware of that was dr lane's report metropolitan police hadn't been able to help us before that because they were
02:55:40 were very new into this and the only authoritative position about what was on the building what wasn't and and um all those factors
02:55:51 and and um all those factors came into place when when dr lane's report
02:55:54 report came to the attention of the bba before you saw dr lane's report well you did there come a time when you were satisfied that arconic had given you full disclosure of all
02:56:05 given you full disclosure of all relevant test data and classification reports for rayner bond 55 did they come when i was satisfied yes and well because they hadn't produced
02:56:16 and well because they hadn't produced the pe material to me then then no um but the people but the pe product was was not certificated um at that time only the fr
02:56:27 um at that time only the fr and and fr material had been provided to the bba
02:56:32 the bba given that there never came a time when you were fully satisfied that arconic had provided you with all the documents that you had been after for so many months as you've told us why didn't you act
02:56:43 as you've told us why didn't you act then at a much earlier stage to suspend and then withdraw the certificate rather than waiting to see what dr lane had to say about it um well i i again would involve the
02:56:56 um well i i again would involve the metropolitan police um in this um who are getting up to speed
02:57:02 speed and the only time i was absolutely fully sure about what was on the building and the situation with the fire test report was dr lane
02:57:13 report was dr lane it was at that point that the legal advice was was absolutely clear that we could and we could act to suspend the certificate well do you accept uh that in acting
02:57:27 well do you accept uh that in acting only to suspend the certificate after the 2nd of november 2018 the bba acted in a way that was supine and lead and footage
02:57:38 no i don't accept that at all i don't think that's a fair description um i i spent a great deal of time trying to put pressure on arconic to the
02:57:49 trying to put pressure on arconic to the best i could to to acquire this information i don't think it is fair or accurate to describe the bba's approach in that way we had taken legal advice from the time the dba
02:58:01 taken legal advice from the time the dba contacted us and we're trying to be proportionate but i never ever was supine or lead and footed well leading footed is a matter of opinion i never felt
02:58:13 is a matter of opinion i never felt supine
02:58:14 supine towards trying to get information from our conic that i thought we needed so what was it that you were waiting for before taking the decision to suspend or
02:58:25 before taking the decision to suspend or withdraw the certificate um specifically i was very interested in um mr
02:58:36 in um mr o'neal and the the auditor who had been to mercktime and was not shown these documents that to me would have
02:58:48 these documents that to me would have been very significant if he said no i i was never i was never shown
02:58:53 shown these documents now you'll see my statement
02:58:57 statement i press the met to try to get to this stage quite soon i thought he was a very significant witness
02:59:05 witness but my ability to interview or to investigate would probably entail that i needed to travel to murksheim and interview a number of people who allegedly
02:59:15 allegedly saw these documents that was something i wasn't capable of doing and it wasn't appropriate because i think that's a matter for formal investigation so you'll see in my statement that i
02:59:26 so you'll see in my statement that i raised
02:59:27 raised in may i believe may 2018 um that i thought this would be very an important thing for the police service to undertake and around that point
02:59:39 to undertake and around that point i was willing to have i've interceded because i think that would have dropped another element into the equation about whether we were being misled or not but i wanted the police service involved in that and i think it was only september 2018
02:59:54 and i think it was only september 2018 that um the the metropolitan police began to engage with with with with mr o'neill and i never saw the outcome of that uh which was regrettable um one of the
03:00:05 uh which was regrettable um one of the things i should have done was insisted that a member of the bba be present during that meeting between the metropolitan police and mr o'neill when a statement was taken from him
03:00:16 a statement was taken from him so i i didn't do that because i wanted mr o'neill to not feel under any pressure from the organization at all if if we had been there um
03:00:27 if if we had been there um and had that confirmed then maybe that would have been in my view sufficient but that was september october and it just coincided pretty much with
03:00:38 just coincided pretty much with with mrs um dr lane's report so um yeah there were a couple of things going on that would have helped me come to that determination a little sooner now that miss amarozzo
03:00:52 a little sooner now that miss amarozzo mr chairman i know at the time this is my last question or a pair of questions perhaps
03:00:56 perhaps miss amarosa and mr nicomo both told the inquiry that it wasn't mr o'neal's job as auditor technical assessor to collect these sorts of documents
03:01:07 collect these sorts of documents so why why would you have thought that he would have he would have had them other than or mr schmidt well exactly if if their defense i like again forgive me
03:01:18 if their defense i like again forgive me i i'm not making allegations i hope unfairly against sarconic but if their defense was that they had made a disclosure to the bba of fire test reports to mr o'neal
03:01:33 of fire test reports to mr o'neal at that location and and having offered i don't know what going on having offered the milk pushed him towards them and that wasn't true
03:01:42 true that was very significant and if mr o'neal
03:01:46 o'neal had had these things pushed towards him well that was something that the bba would would be accountable for so i think it was very important that this very specific thing that they were
03:01:57 this very specific thing that they were potentially hiding behind or could you know help their case should be dealt with and that's why i thought mr o'neill was was very important
03:02:07 important mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions and it's just gone one o'clock yeah immediate moment it would um is this the point at which
03:02:18 it would um is this the point at which we would normally have a break for um other people to consider questions as well
03:02:22 well yes it is and i was going to suggest that we allied the lunch break with the um with any with my examination of my own notes
03:02:29 own notes and giving the opportunity to others to survive so was i but i think it's fair just to explain to mr moore where we've got to mr moore as you just heard mr millet thinks he's reached the end of the questions he wants to put to
03:02:41 end of the questions he wants to put to you
03:02:42 you that normally we would have a break at this stage uh just to give him a chance to check that and also to give other people who are following the inquiry the opportunity to suggest
03:02:53 inquiry the opportunity to suggest additional questions um i think you were hoping to get away this side of lunch but would it be a great inconvenience i hope it wouldn't for you to come back at
03:03:04 for you to come back at let's say uh five past two and then to field any
03:03:09 field any further questions that may arise at that stage
03:03:14 thank you mr chairman i will be here at five past two all right and then we'll see then if there are any further questions and as i've said to you before please don't discuss your evidence or anything to do with
03:03:25 with anyone over the break i understand lovely thank you very much five possible please
03:03:31 please thank you
03:03:44 you