British Red Cross / Cabinet Office Evidence - Wednesday 18th May 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:27 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:31 hearing today we're going to begin by hearing evidence from a member of the red cross who

00:00:36 who was involved in helping those affected by the fire and after that we're going to hear evidence from a representative of the cabinet office yes mr keating good morning mr chairman good morning members of panel can i call ms sprague

00:00:48 members of panel can i call ms sprague please

00:00:49 please thank you

00:00:59 good morning miss frank you're going to a firm i think is that right

00:01:03 right when the words are there on the screen would you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank

00:01:14 truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable

00:01:23 right thank you thank you yes mr keating thank you sir

00:01:27 you sir well good morning miss sprague first of all thank you very much for accommodating us by attending today and assisting the inquiry with its investigations just a few introductory matters and firstly if you have

00:01:38 matters and firstly if you have difficulty in understanding any of my questions please do let me know and i'm sure i can rephrase them and secondly if i could invite you to keep your voice up please and amplify it as best you can so our transcriber who sits to the right

00:01:49 our transcriber who sits to the right can capture what you say and equally in that vein if you could avoid nodding or shaking your head because that's something which isn't picked up on a transcript and finally we will take a mid-morning break

00:02:00 finally we will take a mid-morning break but at any stage if you do need a break please do let us know is that okay thank you yes

00:02:05 you yes i'm turning to your evidence first of all by way of a couple of formalities and identifying the two witness statements you've made to inquiry and firstly could we go to b or c please six

00:02:16 firstly could we go to b or c please six zeros five zero that's your first statement

00:02:19 statement we can see that's dated the 12th of june 2019

00:02:23 2019 and we could turn to page 19 of that statement please we see your name in print and the dates and could you just confirm that's your signature yes i'm turning to your second statement

00:02:34 i'm turning to your second statement please that's b or c i believe it's six zeros again 81 please thank you very much and that's dated to 20 to february 2020

00:02:45 and that's dated to 20 to february 2020 and if you go to page five of that document

00:02:47 document again could you confirm that's your signature it is yes and have you had the opportunity to read both those statements recently i have yeah thank you and can you confirm that the contents of those statements are true to the best of your knowledge and

00:02:58 true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes thank you

00:03:02 thank you and ms bragg we've already heard from your colleague mr adamson last week when he gave evidence that i'm not going to trespass on the same areas and to assist you i'm going to ask you a little bit about the role of british red

00:03:13 little bit about the role of british red cross and the london resilience framework just a short part of your evidence and then i'm going to focus upon

00:03:19 upon um your involvement in an involvement of british red cross in events on the 14th 15th and june thereafter and okay if that assists you so telling

00:03:30 and okay if that assists you so telling dealing first of all your background and your position briefly if i may and professional background mr sprague is it right that you've worked in the charity sector for over 19 years going back to february 2003.

00:03:42 2003. yes

00:03:44 yes and you set out helpfully in your statement your employment history which includes roles with the help that aided charity and then is it the case that you then joined the british red cross in january 2015. that's right yes

00:03:58 january 2015. that's right yes and since august 2016 you've held position of director for london independent living and crisis response is that correct that's true the job title is slightly different now but the role is the same yes

00:04:11 role is the same yes and the job title might have changed but is it right that you're still with british red cross yes that's true the job title just for clarity's director for health and local crisis response but it's the same as the role was at that time

00:04:21 time thank you

00:04:23 thank you and as part of that role back in june 2017 is it correct that you were responsible for the london emergency response team yes and

00:04:33 and reading from your statements i can summarize it at paragraph 21 you set out that it was a dual purpose for the london emergency response team which included providing help to people in an

00:04:44 included providing help to people in an emergency situation and secondly to work with partner organizations on plans and preparedness is that correct yes that's true yeah

00:04:52 true yeah so two aspects one in terms of pre-emergency planning and secondly actual dealing with emergency response yes and that the pre-planning would be internally as well as with partners

00:05:04 internally as well as with partners externally yes you're just dropping your voice a little bit oh sorry it's okay if you try and keep it up as best you can and at paragraph 29 of your statement again i can summarize it you say that

00:05:15 again i can summarize it you say that the work of the emergency response team during a response is perhaps understandably focused on supporting vulnerable people who are affected by matters that require emotional or practical support during or immediately

00:05:26 practical support during or immediately after emergency yes that's right in relation to how the british red cross fits into the london resilience framework let's just deal with that as a

00:05:37 framework let's just deal with that as a brief subheading is it right that british red cross is neither a category 1 or category 2 responder within the meaning of the civil contingencies act yes that's right

00:05:50 if we could go to your statement please your first statement at page seven that's brc6050

00:05:57 paragraph 33 thank you perhaps we could just focus upon your role as chair of the voluntary sector panel so you say this in my role at british

00:06:08 so you say this in my role at british red cross i'm the chair of the voluntary sector panel which is part of the partnership i've held its role since may 2017. the partnership is led by the london resilience forum which sets out a

00:06:19 resilience forum which sets out a strategy and work plan of the partnership and meets quarterly you mentioned how the laundry sector panel operates alongside a number of other sector panels which form part of the london resilience partnership and promotes collaboration across

00:06:30 promotes collaboration across organizations british red cross representatives form part of the voluntary sector panel alongside representatives from for example

00:06:38 example first

00:06:39 first aid nursing yeoman raid st john's ambulance victim support and other teams which are set out in that statement is that a fair summary yes that's right yes

00:06:50 yes that's right yes how well as of june 2017 did you consider the foundry sector panel fitted in to the london resilience framework um i'd say that we were well connected

00:07:02 um i'd say that we were well connected into the framework so um as the chair of the panel

00:07:06 the panel i had standing invites to all of the forum meetings and and various other things that were happening as a result of that partnership and we had as a panel opportunity to comment on various

00:07:17 panel opportunity to comment on various things that were coming out of the lrf so an opportunity to be involved in training and exercising so i think we were well connected yes so your view was that as chair of voluntary sector panel is that the

00:07:28 voluntary sector panel is that the voluntary sector was well connected within that framework i just want to move on to one matter sorry could may i just clarify i think the panel was well connected it's very difficult to say the sector as a whole was well connected but the panel as it

00:07:40 was well connected but the panel as it consisted of those a finite number of organizations was well connected yes as a chair you were the conduit for the voluntary sector panel did you feel that you at that stage were

00:07:51 you at that stage were connected to the wider voluntary sector it's really difficult to be connected to the wider sector so no that was the challenge that we always were aware of the members of the panel

00:08:03 the members of the panel are substantively um organizations with a pan london remit and one with emergency response in their remit so by definition that's not going to include all of the voluntary sector

00:08:14 all of the voluntary sector so that your the membership and the one the organization you would have most contact would be more formal perhaps even national voluntary yes national with regional um

00:08:26 voluntary yes national with regional um presence or london specific yes

00:08:31 i'm just going to move to paragraph 44 if i may

00:08:37 and we touched upon the role already of the british red cross you mentioned in terms of emergency response but also pre-emergency response in terms of planning and preparedness

00:08:48 planning and preparedness now it says this reference to british red cross and its role it can play are frequently included in emergency plans prepared by local authorities and also reference in lrf protocols and frameworks including the humanitarian

00:08:59 frameworks including the humanitarian assistance framework just focusing on this last matter the british red cross is often involved in reviewing plans at a borough level via the london emergency response team at local borough resilience forum and at

00:09:12 at local borough resilience forum and at pan on the level via the london resilience partnership just expanding upon that so could you assist with how often would the british red cross be evolved perhaps at a borough resilience forum level

00:09:26 borough resilience forum level um

00:09:26 um [Music]

00:09:27 [Music] so i

00:09:29 so i had have an emergency response team of five members of staff and we were trying to engage with all of the brf's the borough resilience farms across london so obviously there's quite a large number of those

00:09:41 a large number of those so our aim was and is to engage with all of the forums at least once a year um but then potentially more than that if we had the capacity so often we would attend the team not myself but the team

00:09:53 attend the team not myself but the team would attend more than one a year did you find that as of june 2017 that's the

00:10:00 the participation of of different brfs varied in other words whether they would take up your offer of assistance um

00:10:10 um so the red cross was always invited to the brfs assistance wouldn't necessarily be offered there but we always my team would always tell me that we always were given opportunity to present

00:10:22 given opportunity to present what we could offer in terms of our capabilities so that was something that was um that was something that was happened at the brfs brf recognized the red cross role could play i would say yeah so there's a representation

00:10:34 yeah so there's a representation at brfs and there was the opportunity to provide assistance or make contributions yes

00:10:43 and turning to or bkc for a moment and can you recall whether the british red cross had ever been invited to their borough resilience forum prior to 2017

00:10:55 borough resilience forum prior to 2017 i can't recall that personally there may be records that show it i would have expected that we would have had an invite before that time yes well it's not a memory test let me help you in relation to that let's go to your second

00:11:06 relation to that let's go to your second statement please which is b or c 6081 thank you very much and turn to paragraph nine first of all

00:11:22 and paragraph ten actually

00:11:26 so thank you very much paragraph 10 where the question was at paragraph 10 question 4 prior to 14 june when was the last time a brc representative attended the appropriate local authority panel borough resilience

00:11:38 local authority panel borough resilience forum

00:11:39 forum and you say this in your statement i have no recollection a record of british red cross being invited to an or bkc borough resilience forum prior to 2017. in 2017 british red cross was invited to

00:11:51 in 2017 british red cross was invited to a brf

00:11:52 a brf british borough resilience forum scheduled for the 22nd of march 2017. however our records show that this borough resilience forum meeting was subsequently cancelled and

00:12:04 meeting was subsequently cancelled and the next

00:12:05 the next meeting we were invited to was scheduled for the 18th of july 2017 but our records show that this was then postponed

00:12:13 postponed so drawing that together it appears to be no record of an invitation although

00:12:18 although in 2017 that there was an invitation but that was postponed on two occasions yeah i agree with that yes

00:12:28 would it follow from this that the british red cross didn't have any review or input into or bkc's emergency plans it does suggest that yes i mean

00:12:39 plans it does suggest that yes i mean there may have been communication through different routes say for emails um into the team but that's not normally something that would happen it would normally be discussion at the brf so yes that does seem to be the case yeah so

00:12:51 that does seem to be the case yeah so the brf from drawing together your evidence seems to be the the location where that sort of input would would come from or stem from is that fair yes yeah if we have your first step well actually

00:13:03 if we have your first step well actually i can just summarize in your first statement paragraph 41 you refer to the relationship in general terms with a local authority and the british red cross would be

00:13:14 and the british red cross would be governed by a memorandum of understanding is that correct yes that's right and at the time of the grenville town tower fire in june 2017 can you assist with whether there was a current

00:13:26 with whether there was a current memorandum of understanding between all bkc and british red cross in place no it doesn't seem as if there was a current one at that point your your evidence as you said in your

00:13:38 your your evidence as you said in your statement of paragraph 41 is that you were unable to locate one and

00:13:43 and it may

00:13:44 it may what memorandum of understanding you could locate and was dated september 2016 is that correct yes so it wouldn't have been in place at the time of the fire yeah yes well let's have a look at that document

00:13:55 well let's have a look at that document if we made very very briefly it's at brc and it is five six zeroes 55 please

00:14:06 thank you

00:14:09 and we see a covering letter with the document it's dated 11th of january 2016 sent to your colleague christina dalton please find and close a signed copy of

00:14:20 please find and close a signed copy of the memorandum owner standing we're delighted to confirm our continued commitments to this service and it confirms that there will be a donation of two thousand pounds and was that relatively standard in terms of

00:14:32 that relatively standard in terms of the agreement between or the understanding between british red cross and a local authority at that stage was that there would be a donation of that some yes the memorandum was the same and the

00:14:43 yes the memorandum was the same and the donation amount was the same across all of the

00:14:46 of the mouss and the local authority arrangements yes

00:14:51 and was it unusual that in terms of with an agreement with a local authority that this case it had lapsed and it had been out of date by nine months was that

00:15:02 been out of date by nine months was that unusual back in june 2017 with the relationships with local authorities i think

00:15:10 i think it's fair to say that yes some had lapsed they weren't um things were being renewed at different times it wasn't a constant you know everybody starts on one day and everybody finishes every other mou finishes on another so it

00:15:21 other mou finishes on another so it wasn't wholly unusual but we did have memorandums of understanding in place with the majority of local authorities at the time of the fight so i think that was just well potentially it was a bit of an admin um issue that that one

00:15:32 of an admin um issue that that one wasn't renewed but i can't i'm not i don't know for sure

00:15:37 and did the absence of a sign's current memorandum of understanding for june 2017 did that in any way affect the relationship between all bkc and

00:15:49 the relationship between all bkc and british red cross not in terms of the response no it didn't no

00:16:00 if we could turn to page seven of this document there's a couple of features perhaps you could assist us with is it right that this is a standard document which would have been used at the time for all local authorities or was it specific to british red cross

00:16:13 was it specific to british red cross it was standard yes in fact if we could page seven of the memorandum of understanding please which is b or c 6 0 is 55 thank you i think we're looking at

00:16:24 is 55 thank you i think we're looking at the statements now

00:16:28 thank you very much

00:16:31 we see service specifications and preparedness is set out there 4.1 and i'm going to focus on response if i may at 4.2 and this is what it says there

00:16:43 and this is what it says there in the standard mou a robust 24 7 on-call structure facilitates support to laps

00:16:51 laps posing there for a moment we've heard a lot of laps in this context this is a local authority pat panel

00:16:59 panel yeah in fact local authority partner is that correct partner in this

00:17:06 yes and enables british red cross deployments secondly provision of personnel at rest centers humanitarian assistance centres survivor reception centres and family and friends reception centers

00:17:18 and friends reception centers and if we could turn to overleaf please top of page 8 of this document as we look at it provision of practical and emotional support to people affected by an incident

00:17:29 incident including multilingual phrase books registration forms and equipment inflatable beds blankets hygiene packs refreshment and psychosocial care

00:17:41 refreshment and psychosocial care i'm going to ask you just to keep in your mind that reference to registration forms we're going to come back to that in in a short while and lastly in relation to this document at page nine please

00:17:53 at page nine please under

00:17:55 under the third last bullet points i think we see that actually it's in the middle of the page it says b or c personnel

00:18:04 personnel will work under the management of the local authority panel and local authority partner but without the policies and procedures but within the policies and procedures of british red cross so i'll

00:18:15 procedures of british red cross so i'll try and say that again and it's a brc personnel will work under the management of the local authority partner but within the policies and procedures of british red cross is that correct yes

00:18:29 so having that context um first question is this in an emergency situation who would have responsibility for setting up and operating a rest center if i could use a generic

00:18:40 a rest center if i could use a generic term

00:18:41 term a local authority local authority yeah

00:18:45 even if there is a member of memorandum of understanding that you would assist in relation to that yes our role as the red cross is there to support but it's the local authorities responsibility in that area to set up the center

00:18:58 and in relation to registration feature registration of those who attend a rest center again i'm going to use a generic term and who would be responsible for that

00:19:09 and who would be responsible for that process as you understood it the same local authority

00:19:15 and what was your understanding of the the process of registration in terms of an mou let's say i'm a local authority i'm new to the department explain to me how registration would

00:19:26 explain to me how registration would work if if british red cross were deployed

00:19:31 deployed um so we would expect that when the team arrives my red cross team arrives at a rest center they would be given various things to do asked to

00:19:42 given various things to do asked to perform various functions and one of those might be registration we

00:19:47 we could offer registration forms to be used

00:19:51 used and

00:19:52 and and then on the instruction of the authority to actually perform the registration we would do that and capture information as people arrived at the center

00:20:02 the thrust of your evidence would be it would on attendance it would be at the direction of the local authority yes and what would happen in a situation where there was nobody from the local authority there and the british red cross were first on the scene

00:20:14 cross were first on the scene that's very difficult because it's not our role

00:20:17 our role to register people so it's not a role that we would we would take on without that instruction and in terms of registration as of june 2017

00:20:27 2017 in the circumstances where the british red cross were were asked or directed to to to take hold of the registration process how would that take place would it be

00:20:38 how would that take place would it be electronic would it be paper uh there were paper forms um and i believe at this particular incident we were asked to use the red cross forms so there were paper triplicate forms so

00:20:50 there were paper triplicate forms so paper triplicate forms so an attendee would come they would meet somebody from british red cross their details will be taken down in

00:21:01 their details will be taken down in it by hand yes in triplicates then what would happen to those forms the forms are the responsibility because the data is the responsibility of the local authorities so they would be

00:21:12 local authorities so they would be collated and kept somewhere safe and then given over to the local authority at various intervals

00:21:21 and british red cross would keep a copy as well

00:21:23 as well we would sometimes yes we would sometimes keep a copy so that

00:21:28 so that the data was secure in two places if you like but ultimately it's not our data to keep and we would make arrangements to hand all copies over at a later point and were you aware of any process in which that paper information would ever

00:21:40 which that paper information would ever be put into an electronic format

00:21:44 at in this particular incident yes what do you mean uh i do recall that at some point later um into the response and at the westway center there was a

00:21:55 and at the westway center there was a team run by local authorities um that i think were inputting data into spreadsheets but it's not something that we were part of we were just handing the forms over

00:22:06 so in essence british red cross would be there to assist but not lead in relation to registration and it was a manual process noting paper down noting details down on paper and providing a copy to

00:22:18 down on paper and providing a copy to the local authority yes that's right thank you

00:22:23 thank you can you just help me with this um you say you would take the information down on

00:22:30 down on paper forms in triplicate what was the purpose of having two additional copies so to speak

00:22:38 i'm not sure to be honest but i think the forms um having three copies of the same thing just facilitated different people having them if that was needed so um certainly the focus of that

00:22:50 um certainly the focus of that information was for the local authority there could have been in different incidents that things that those forms are used for different agencies but you wouldn't expect the red cross people to separate the forms out

00:23:01 people to separate the forms out and distribute them to different recipients it's no because it's the local authorities responsibility to do that thank you

00:23:10 i think we'll revisit registration briefly later on when we explore um events on the 14th and 15th of june which i'm just going to turn to now let's deal with the first topic which is immediate

00:23:22 first topic which is immediate deployment of the british red cross on the 14th of june and with your assistance is a document which you've provided i'm going to turn to brc

00:23:33 to brc and it's six zeroes again 51. thank you

00:23:38 thank you it's called the british red cross emergency call receipt effectively a log is that correct what this document is yes and you've seen this before and you've obviously provided it to the inquiry

00:23:51 obviously provided it to the inquiry that's one of your documents and we can see at the top that the request time is 14th of june 0310 isn't that correct yes and that's what was noted as the

00:24:02 yes and that's what was noted as the first time that the british red cross were notified of this incident isn't that correct that's right and the panel have heard evidence that david curry was first informed by the juicy layla at o2 21

00:24:15 by the juicy layla at o2 21 of the fire at grenfell just to put that into context and this is a document you produce but it's it's done by your colleague john pewter putner which you can see in the top left

00:24:26 putner which you can see in the top left is that correct that's right yes and we see it there if you scroll down community profile numbers affected at this early stage

00:24:37 at this early stage 200 persons is noted down correct

00:24:41 correct yes and then we see rest center to be opened at blue sheets shepard's bush green

00:24:47 green i'm going to return please to

00:24:53 page 4

00:24:56 that document thank you very much there's a number of entries there and with your assistance i'm just going to draw out a few points um

00:25:05 um which will put a few matters into context

00:25:08 context and we see at o310 as we touched upon already call received from david curry or bkc and that information and the request to set up a rest center at shepherd's bush for residents isn't

00:25:19 at shepherd's bush for residents isn't that correct yes then in relation to that theme in relation to belushi's we see that and colleagues of yours were notified at 0315 at 0316

00:25:30 0315 at 0316 isn't that correct uh yes

00:25:34 uh yes and then

00:25:36 and then staying with belushi's for a moment the first official rest center at 0345 we see

00:25:43 we see those colleagues robin wheeler and you and williams arrive at belushi's and the entry is nil person's presence nil or bkc

00:25:54 person's presence nil or bkc correct yes and if we go to 4 15

00:26:01 the next entry is in relation to this it would appear spoke to robin wheeler still zero persons in attendance jb on steen on scene that must be

00:26:13 steen on scene that must be gene borlott if i'm pronouncing his name correctly is that correct yes that's right then at 4 35 jp who's the author of this log on scene

00:26:24 jp who's the author of this log on scene at belushi's zero attendance what does cl and central e e u arrive um

00:26:33 um [Music]

00:26:34 [Music] it's reference to vehicle i think cl is another volunteer person and the eu is a vehicle and at that stage it's it states

00:26:46 and at that stage it's it states um decision made to redeploy one of your colleagues to harrow club to assist correct

00:26:52 correct yes then we go to the bottom of this page we see at 5 30 checked in with robin wheeler and still nobody at the rest center this being belushi's

00:27:04 belushi's contacted beck at obkc thank you very much turning overleaf and advised nobody at the rest center suggests it's too far away community reluctant to leave area decision made by obkc to close the center

00:27:17 obkc to close the center and the british red cross team were directed to harrow club to assist and the answer the next entry is asked where or c managers that's rest center managers i think were

00:27:28 think were but did not get an answer just dealing with that so that's belushi's the first official rest center and is it normal in your experience in this area for an initial rest center to be empty almost two and a

00:27:40 rest center to be empty almost two and a half hours after it been set up at 0.310 um no especially in the night like that at the night time and the location of belushi's in

00:27:51 and the location of belushi's in shepherds bush was approximately a mile away

00:27:54 away again for an initial rest center in an urban area in your experience is that normal or good practice um i would say it's not normal no

00:28:05 um i would say it's not normal no perhaps common sense you'd want somewhere in a safe location but in proximity to the the incident yes it's obviously important that people can get there easily they know where it is and that

00:28:16 easily they know where it is and that people can get there as easily as possible so it needs to be somewhere that's relatively close by but as you say somewhere safe once we went following that theme through in relation to belushi's there was reference to the harrow club so

00:28:29 was reference to the harrow club so we're going to go back in time again and just follow through harrow club and his references to mutual aid so if we could go back to page four please and

00:28:39 and the first call was at 0310 at 0325 we have david curry so 50 minutes later called to advise a second rest center would be required a scale of incident

00:28:50 would be required a scale of incident now larger harrow club will be second res center is that correct yes and again very quickly british red cross staff were

00:29:02 cross staff were notified to be deployed and that's the reference to one of the vehicles the eu we see data then we see at 340 cara

00:29:14 cara treasure ukiya uko washida crisis response coordinator yes sakara was in the central crisis response team uk i was shorthand for uk office it

00:29:25 uk i was shorthand for uk office it tends to be shorthand for our central team okay

00:29:29 team okay um

00:29:30 um and she was was she advised or was she advising it appears that she was advised large incident possible may require mutual aid yes so this will have been as part of our notification procedure with a large

00:29:42 our notification procedure with a large incident with statutory partners involved um the london er team will inform the central crisis response team so bear in mind a second rest sensor was opened up the amount of people involved

00:29:53 opened up the amount of people involved within 30 minutes of notification the view of british red cross was there's a flashing light here that we may need to draw in greater resources is that correct yes yeah

00:30:05 that correct yes yeah and let's fast forward to 55 in relation to this

00:30:11 arrived at rest at howard center approximately 25 residents no local authority but tmo representative presence

00:30:19 presence and one of your colleagues left to encourage residents from accordance to the rest center there's other matters there regarding sky tv

00:30:27 sky tv mps metroid police assistance was requested

00:30:30 requested staff had started to make a list of who was present and provide refreshments provided tmo with british red cross rest center forms to register residents

00:30:41 residents and then in capitals full scale of incident becomes apparent and that carat treasure updated mutual aid requested

00:30:52 a lot there and we'll we'll unpack that in a moment but firstly in relation to that theme of mutual aid it was at that state was at the position then by five o'clock

00:31:03 then by five o'clock it was clear to those that british red cross at a scale of the incident was so big that greater resources from across the country and outside london were required yes very much so

00:31:16 focusing again at that entry 455 it say says at that stage there was no local authority at this second rest center but there was the tmo representative's

00:31:28 but there was the tmo representative's presence

00:31:29 presence and in terms of the registration forms they were provided to the tmo is that correct that's that's what the entry suggests yes um yes and i think that will have been because

00:31:40 that will have been because the staff at the center were trying to make lists and i think the team there were trying to be helpful and give them some proper paperwork to do that on

00:31:49 and you say it power over 59 of your statements and i can read this out rather than jumping between documents it says during this time our teams were suggesting to staff at rest centers that individuals should be registered upon

00:32:01 individuals should be registered upon arrival using registration forms yes and we were doing that because the team was doing that because um there wasn't a local authority person to make that call

00:32:11 that call so we were making that suggestion on their behalf i suppose and and

00:32:16 and and nobody from their local authority was there at that stage they were trying to assist as you say in your in your evidence and do you know what happened to those forms which were handed out at that

00:32:26 at that stage i'm afraid i don't know

00:32:33 if we go to 5 30 please

00:32:40 overleaf thank you very much and we'll just we've gone into a second statement so if we could go back to log thank you very much

00:32:48 much page five of the log thank you and we see

00:32:52 see there

00:32:54 there probably need to scroll up a little bit so everybody can see top of the page thank you

00:33:02 thank you we see that the second column or 5 30 sc arrived and a colleague directed to get people to come to the howard center it became apparent that a spontaneous rest center had opened at the portobello

00:33:14 rest center had opened at the portobello rugby trust a rugby portobello trust essie attended and assessed how many people were there approximately 50 jp returned to horror club metropolitan police service now present

00:33:26 metropolitan police service now present outside and it states here two mps dc's perhaps detective constables unclear assisting with registration

00:33:36 is that correct uh yes and i agree with your assumption about what the dc stands for then

00:33:47 and we see at 0.545

00:33:51 at 0.545 fed back above to the back and went to opt so it appears that the the information that there was a spontaneous rest center was identified

00:34:02 spontaneous rest center was identified here by the british red cross and that was notified to the back because there's nobody from or bkc at the harrow club at that stage uh yes i believe that's right i contacted beck again decision made by

00:34:14 contacted beck again decision made by all bkc to move people from the harrow center harrow club over to rugby portobello trust to be in one place and easier to provide support or bkc spoke to

00:34:25 or bkc spoke to rugby propeller trust management to greedus

00:34:30 at 0615 british red cross team now at the rugby party portobello trust 0630 most residents now at the rugby portal portobello trust

00:34:41 portal portobello trust 0645 power club now empty signage in place directing residence to the rugby portobello trust

00:34:50 and then it moves on to the third theme i just want to draw out which is and we've touched upon already is is staffing or the lack of lack of staff from or bkc

00:35:01 lack of staff from or bkc we see again an entry

00:35:03 an entry here at

00:35:05 here at 0645 contacted beck trying to locate or bkc lelo or rest center staff

00:35:14 by this stage a number of hours had passed 0310 was the first notification of the british red cross we're three and a half hours later and there is um

00:35:25 um no or bkc staff which are identifiable to the british red cross at those red centers again from your experience is that something that you would expect at that stage

00:35:37 that stage no

00:35:38 no even at night time would you exp giving every allowance is is that an acceptable period um in my experience i suppose the difference would be as well that you

00:35:49 difference would be as well that you would usually have one clearer place for local authority and residents to go to and that clearly that wasn't the case at this time it was a much bigger incident than we'd been involved in before um but even then if there was

00:36:02 um but even then if there was um one place to go to i would have thought really that the local authority would have representation there by that point yes

00:36:14 and specifically we've heard evidence regarding rest center managers that been a specific role for emma arrest center would you from the british red cross perspective

00:36:25 from the british red cross perspective expects

00:36:26 expects as part of your understanding with or bkc that they send down a rest center manager down to the scene

00:36:35 the scene yes that's part of the model that we would expect yes the

00:36:42 the evidence of david curry in in in summary is as an expectation that it would be the british red cross which would provide everything they would provide the rest center manager and

00:36:53 provide the rest center manager and really operates and

00:36:57 and the rest center is that a fair expectation as of june 2017

00:37:02 2017 no i would disagree with that my team provide training on rest center management to local authorities and it's very clear that it's not our role to be the manager we can support

00:37:14 role to be the manager we can support with that but ultimately rest centers are the responsibility of the local authority

00:37:19 authority so would be the case if i was a local authority and decided that i wanted to outsource this specific role with british red cross and make my donation to you in the expectation that you would

00:37:31 to you in the expectation that you would run the rest center would that be a a realistic expectation back in june 2017.

00:37:38 2017. um

00:37:40 um no i think if if specific requests have been made and specific arrangements for that have been put in place then we could consider it but as far as i'm aware that hadn't happened

00:37:50 happened and

00:37:51 and um rest center management is provided by a local authority and we support that and i believe that's what's in the mlu yes and the mou we looked at briefly which you provide us is

00:38:02 which you provide us is as you described a standard to mou which would be used with other local authorities in london at that time yes

00:38:10 so just returning back to this seeking

00:38:16 the location of our bkc staff we see at 0 8 15 which is at the bottom of this page if you could scroll down thank you so much chased housing and social care

00:38:28 chased housing and social care advised on way it would be fair to infer from that entry that was your colleagues chasing or bkc housing and social care and advised by the beck

00:38:39 and social care and advised by the beck that they're on the way yes the communication from the team would largely be with the beck yes 915 in similar terms chased housing and social care advised on way

00:38:51 and social care advised on way that's the bottom of the page and then if we turn over to page six please and the final entry in relation to this 10 30 chased housing and social care advised

00:39:02 advised on way

00:39:03 on way so we see an entry here five hours and 20 minutes after british red cross were first noticed notified of the incidents the incidents been some hours before then

00:39:15 been some hours before then but still nobody from all bkc at the rest center is the british red cross we're at is that correct um

00:39:22 um nobody from housing and social care and i suspect nobody from the council that's what the records have shown me yes

00:39:30 and

00:39:32 you're obviously your position at the state was oversight by by your role but are you able to say what sort of impact that would have on the operation

00:39:43 impact that would have on the operation of the british red cross and that sort of situation when there is a long period of time where there's an absence of the local authority

00:39:54 because the local authority is the lead for a centre and for centre management they provide the ultimately the coordination for what happens at that place

00:40:05 place so for my teams it's um and it was very difficult to know who who was in charge and therefore um the sorts of things that were needed the various elements

00:40:17 that were needed the various elements that that were already there or that were going to be brought into the center so that our teams could then um

00:40:23 um direct people who were arriving at the center to the right support so it was just it was just a very uncoordinated picture and that's that's the impact that it had for us we were then um the team would find it difficult to know what was information was right or

00:40:35 know what was information was right or where to send people for further help so it had an impact on us but ultimately was the impact on the residents that was the greatest

00:40:43 and we could go to your statement please your first statement that's paragraph 59.

00:40:55 that's b or c six zeros five zero thank you

00:41:00 paragraph 16 did i say 59 forgive me if i said 59 thank you

00:41:12 and this is we've touched upon and seen from the log but when the british red cross volunteers arrive at the scene of grenville fire they found that there were several separate rest centers which had spontaneously been set up in local buildings including mosques and churches

00:41:24 buildings including mosques and churches a local location for an official rest center had not been confirmed by all bkc posing there for a moment perhaps to clarify we've heard about belushi's and we've heard about the harrow club we've heard about the movement over to the

00:41:36 heard about the movement over to the rugby portobello trust was that not an identification of the official dress center

00:41:44 center i suppose

00:41:45 i suppose looking back at the call log there was a suggestion that there was an official rest sensor but it was apparent and through the reports that we were getting that i was getting through the morning that there was confusion and there were

00:41:57 that there was confusion and there were several centers so therefore which one actually was the official one and continue from your statement as a result it was very difficult for the british red cross to identify which rest center to support therefore efforts were

00:42:09 center to support therefore efforts were made to distribute our resources across all of the rest center locations we were aware of in the interim and during this time our teams were suggesting to staff as we said already at rest centers that individuals should be registered upon

00:42:20 individuals should be registered upon arrival using registration forms and it was at the position that the british red cross were were spread probably thinly at this stage amongst the rest centers they were aware of on

00:42:32 the rest centers they were aware of on the morning of the 14th of june yes and do you recall how many staff you had there i mean presumably the numbers built up over the course of some hours

00:42:43 built up over the course of some hours but it's very difficult for me to say i'm afraid i don't recall that but yes people were coming out as a result of additional calls that the duty team were making and um yes it was very difficult it did grow

00:42:54 um yes it was very difficult it did grow quite quickly over the course of that morning and that day i mean we're thinking in terms of tens 20. um if i was to guess i would say it's difficult to get but tens probably

00:43:06 it's difficult to get but tens probably no more than 20 in the early stages yes thank

00:43:10 thank you move on to the to the west way and we got your statement in front of us paragraph 60 and we're just going to deal with as you referred there to

00:43:24 reference to the west's way that there was a number of rest centers and in the middle of that document that included the west west sports and fitness center the west way

00:43:35 fitness center the west way and in terms of your attendance at scgs strategic coordination group meetings

00:43:43 meetings it's right that you attended a meeting at 8 30 through your role as chair of the voluntary sector panel is that correct yes and you also attended there after

00:43:53 after the two o'clock scg meeting as well uh 2 30 i think yes i did yes thank you very much

00:44:02 i'm going to ask to refer to your notes for that meeting please which is brc6046

00:44:12 i say notes it's an email which you created and sent it's your name at the top 1450 and it sends to your colleagues

00:44:23 1450 and it sends to your colleagues at the red cross it says re scg updates and it's

00:44:29 and it's we're going to focus really upon knowledge of rest centers that's the theme we're examining that we could scroll down please under la local authority

00:44:41 under la local authority we can see that there is highlighting and there's red text that's how the document was provided that's not done by us that's your it's it's provided by you and in that way

00:44:52 way and as a result of this meeting it appears that this is what your notes are new rest center west west sports center and clement james center brackets do we know of this

00:45:03 james center brackets do we know of this one

00:45:05 one have confirmed with back the wonders at the three below and the latimer christian center we are doing this clement jane center is the same as saint clemens church in relation to do we know of this one

00:45:16 in relation to do we know of this one was that in reference to the west way or the clements james center from recollection i think it was the clement jane center at that point yeah

00:45:29 then if we look at the last entry in that paragraph local authority management support now solved at the centers question mark in brackets

00:45:40 question mark in brackets you're the author of this is there any significance to the fact that that's in a question mark so this was an email that i was writing whilst the call was ongoing as a way of capturing that discussion and sharing it

00:45:52 capturing that discussion and sharing it quite dynamically with the my team and colleagues so i think that's reference to a report that was made on the scg call to say that management support is now sold and the question mark is mine to

00:46:04 sold and the question mark is mine to check with the team is is that true from our experience so an internal query by you to to follow up and check that yes

00:46:16 and it says what the official rest centers are rugby portobello trusts clement jane james center west way and it's between 100 to 200 each

00:46:27 100 to 200 each respond

00:46:28 respond respite centers again just helps with that terminology it's not one within the london resilience framework is it uh

00:46:36 uh no it isn't um so again i think that is probably a term that was potentially used on the scg car as in places that are providing respite and i've summarized it like that yes it's not a charisma for you it's

00:46:47 yes it's not a charisma for you it's just a clarification of the terminology yeah

00:46:50 yeah it says set up sporadically churches council trying to get information to those to direct first support to one of the three main centers

00:47:02 is it the position by

00:47:05 by as of this two o'clock seg that there still was a lack of clarity as to the rest centers what was official and where people should go

00:47:17 yes um i mean the centers were defined as those three on the scg coal so i suppose they can be defined as official but the challenge was communicating that and the the obvious confusion that was existing with all

00:47:29 confusion that was existing with all those people at all the different places and so it was it was a confusing picture and we know from your statement that at the next seg meeting at 1930 that

00:47:41 the next seg meeting at 1930 that evening you received confirmation at the westward had been established as the official rest center with the view that it was going to be consolidation is that correct yes

00:47:52 and you set out at your power 61 of your statement which perhaps i could summarize that once the westward had been established as the official rest center

00:48:00 center that's where the british red cross coordinated its its efforts from the evening of the 14th of june and you state this included helping with registration helping people to find necessities

00:48:11 necessities clothing bedding food and other items and to settle down for the night is that correct yes that's right so just exploring the helping registration at the west way from the evening of the 14th of june

00:48:23 evening of the 14th of june and we've heard evidence of wristbands being used is that something that is standard practice by the british red cross at rest centers

00:48:34 at rest centers um

00:48:36 um i don't remember the teams having worked with wristbands before but that doesn't say it had never happened

00:48:42 happened um but again it's not something that we would instigate we would do that if the local authority or the um yeah the organization who's running the rest center wanted that to happen it's not something that we would make the decision on

00:48:54 decision on so you you indicated it wasn't something that you remember being done before is that correct um yes i don't remember that but it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened before i think potentially the incident of this

00:49:05 think potentially the incident of this size meant that it was something different but i couldn't be sure on that and in the sort of hours and days which followed were you aware of any negative feedback in relation to the

00:49:18 feedback in relation to the utilization of wristbands by the british red cross at the west way

00:49:24 [Music]

00:49:28 not specifically in terms of wristbands i know there was frustration about accessing the center but i don't recall anything particular about response i could be wrong with that well we'll touch upon access in a moment

00:49:39 in a moment um

00:49:42 well that's they would ask accessibility now

00:49:45 now and

00:49:47 and your awareness of any concerns regarding accessibility did you become aware of any concerns regarding people accessing the west wing um

00:49:59 well there were the general concerns about

00:50:03 about did people know that the westway was a place to go so was the communication clear on that um and from our experience at the red cross of supporting people in incidents we know

00:50:14 supporting people in incidents we know that not everybody would access an official center that's run by authorities so that was um something that we were conscious could be an issue um

00:50:24 um i think they were the main things i would say

00:50:27 would say one of your colleagues colin brown refers to the the cordon which formed the police car which formed a perimeter around the the west way was that something that was raised with jews as

00:50:38 something that was raised with jews as an issue that the cordon was having an adverse impact on accessibility yes i do remember the team raising that with me um

00:50:48 um more from the perception how it would feel for people arriving at the center it would feel like a blocker rather than something that was enabling them to access it and you know what steps were taken to try to improve accessibility in those

00:51:01 try to improve accessibility in those early days of the response to the west wing

00:51:05 wing um

00:51:08 it's difficult for me to think of anything specific but i know there was a lot of work going on to try and um advertise the west way as a place to go to

00:51:18 to um and for the police presence to be perhaps a little dialed back i remember that's something that we were advocating for as an organisation

00:51:28 we'll touch upon communication a theme you mentioned and advertisement for want of a better word of the

00:51:35 of the of the west way and support which is available in a short moment

00:51:44 in relation to the operation of the west way perhaps we could have a look at your statement again please your first statement at page 19 please

00:51:57 these are your sort of concluding remarks it's a it's a significant statement in terms of length

00:52:04 length page 19 paragraph c

00:52:08 c paragraph 78c you say this there also appears to be a lack of leadership and coordination in the efforts in the first few days reports from my team on the ground in the first day after the fire reflect

00:52:20 the first day after the fire reflect that it was difficult to identify or bkc personnel so people did not know who's in charge or who to ask for help is that correct

00:52:31 is that correct yes

00:52:32 yes and was that an issue regarding

00:52:35 regarding identification and lack of leadership on the which existed only the first day or did it persist for longer than that as i recall it did go on for longer than

00:52:47 as i recall it did go on for longer than just the first day um it was an issue of physical identification so normally we would expect uh

00:52:57 expect uh local authority staff to be wearing tabards for example something that makes them clearly identifiable um so it made it difficult for my team to know who who to go and speak to but also then um people who are attending

00:53:10 also then um people who are attending i can't remember exactly when that changed but it was an issue that my team told me about for the first few days yes first few days and in terms of source of information you're perhaps the top of an apex from a strategic point of view

00:53:22 apex from a strategic point of view getting reports fed back from your colleagues but is it right that you also attended the west way

00:53:28 way i did yes and did you attend the west way is it right on the on the thursday i believe it was on the thursday yes and what was your impression of the westway on the thursday when you attended

00:53:42 um i mean i just remember going firstly the surrounding area was extremely busy lots of people um moving around lots of food stalls

00:53:53 um moving around lots of food stalls things boxes being moved around people standing in the streets not really know what to do on the way into the westway centre itself was where you started to see the

00:54:05 itself was where you started to see the donations being piled up

00:54:09 i do remember police presence and then i was able to access the center with the red cross id that i have um and again that was extremely busy it felt

00:54:23 a little bit well disorganized um

00:54:28 um i think by the second day

00:54:32 it's when i was there i should say it felt like things were starting to um be a bit organized in terms of there were zones for the from which the center was being used so donations were

00:54:43 was being used so donations were starting to be gathered in one particular place inside there was obviously the place where people were able to sleep in another part so you i could see a sort of a pattern emerging but it did feel still quite disorganized

00:54:54 but it did feel still quite disorganized and and people able to sort of move around quite freely within the whole space as i remember

00:55:01 your colleague colin brown was he also down there on the thursday pro possibly i can't remember to be honest i went there on my own it's a long time ago and i'm putting you on the spot but colin brown is that he's the uk

00:55:12 spot but colin brown is that he's the uk director of independent living and crisis response he was at that time he was my my boss at the time yes well let's have a look at his statement which might there's a number of british red cross statements and perhaps this might help

00:55:24 help enhance the picture b or c six zero seven zeros please five thank you very much we could turn to paragraph 64 of his statement

00:55:36 statement 64

00:55:37 64 says he personally attended the scene on the morning of the 15th of june and then we can go to paragraph 75 so we can see 75 in context

00:55:52 i would describe the manner in which the west was being operated as chaotic i saw a noticeable leadership from anyone at a senior level within the lbkc and it was clear the obkc was even with

00:56:03 and it was clear the obkc was even with support from the voluntary organizations such as the brc becoming overwhelmed by the task of running the westway and the outpouring of voluntary public support in the form of donations

00:56:15 in the form of donations pausing there that's his opinion um you were there on thursday and you had information which was fed back and would you agree with that opinion

00:56:26 and would you agree with that opinion i would yeah

00:56:29 once we have a statement open and he gives a specific example a paragraph 78 but he'd by this stage he had returned home paragraph 77 he says i was home but

00:56:40 home paragraph 77 he says i was home but acting as a crisis response team duty manager

00:56:44 manager so he was on call because of the exceptional time he wouldn't normally do that but he was stepping in he says this at around 10 pm i received a phone call from the brc judy officer

00:56:55 a phone call from the brc judy officer who was out on side of the west way leading the brc bronze effort on the ground

00:57:00 ground the judy also informed me that the brc volunteers have been unable to identify anyone from the or bkc who is seemingly in charge of running the rest center although there was number of more junior or bk members of staff on sites

00:57:13 or bk members of staff on sites and that's what he raises as something which has been escalated to him on the thursday evening was that something that you had knowledge of even then on the second day on the evening that was a lack of senior or bkc staff at the west

00:57:25 lack of senior or bkc staff at the west way

00:57:28 yes in the role that i had i would have had those things escalated to me as well

00:57:42 perhaps just once we have a statement open can we go to paragraph 101 please and it's the last matter i'm going to mention in relation to registration

00:57:56 and it's something which we've touched upon a couple times already but it just had a completeness because we've asked you a number of questions regarding registration and you're asked the question well what happens to the forms when you're completed you

00:58:07 to the forms when you're completed you say they're given to the process that would be given to the local authority and this is what colin brown your boss at the time says however i got the sense that or bkc was not discharging this

00:58:19 that or bkc was not discharging this responsibility responsibility in relation to registration i came to the view because the brc volunteer found a box containing a number of the second and third copies of the registration forms had been filled

00:58:31 the registration forms had been filled in by the brc and provided the or bkc left lying around the west way it appeared that no effort has been made by the or bkc to collate the data in any sensible manner

00:58:43 sensible manner and he asked the bronze on-site judy austin to report the presence of this box the or bkc to express concern and dissatisfaction as this state of affairs and asked for clarification as to how the data was being appropriately

00:58:55 the data was being appropriately collated

00:58:57 collated you're the first live british red cross witness we've asked specifically about this were you aware of this issue it would have been escalated to me at the time i can't recall it specifically

00:59:08 the time i can't recall it specifically can you recall now what the outcome of that escalation was with or bkc

00:59:18 i can't i'm afraid bear in mind um the matters regarding registration and british cross would be doing it on behalf of the local authority would this

00:59:29 behalf of the local authority would this be a matter of concern to you on the second day that registration forms are left lying around yes absolutely

00:59:37 [Applause]

00:59:41 i'm going to move on to a new topic please which is the provision of support at the west where you mentioned that's where the british red cross and

00:59:49 and focused

00:59:50 focused its support in those days and in terms of if we could look at your statement of paragraph 71 brc6050

01:00:02 i'm going to briefly touch upon psychosocial support psychological support forgive me psychological support and it says this that british red cross

01:00:14 and it says this that british red cross staff and volunteers are all given basic training and providing emotional help you refer to your colleagues who coordinate and make specialists psychosocial support services in emergency situation

01:00:25 emergency situation in the days immediately after fire we made sure that british red cross personnel trained in providing more specialist psychosocial support known as the psychosocial team or pst

01:00:36 known as the psychosocial team or pst we're at the west way

01:00:40 and then it goes on we've offered to support other services in this regard and teamed up with the nhs outreach teams to increase their capacity to reach people affected who are in hotels and other locations

01:00:53 so that provides an umbrella to support which was provided

01:00:58 provided and is it right that that wider support that outreach support took some days to implement

01:01:07 uh yes it will have done i can't remember exactly when it came into play but it will have taken some time yes yes perhaps we can see that from other records and we don't need to focus too much on upon it but it wasn't the case

01:01:19 much on upon it but it wasn't the case that people were going from the british red cross were going to hotels in the first few days of the response is that correct not immediately because we we didn't have the information as to where people were staying yes and in relation to information about

01:01:31 and in relation to information about where people were staying was that an issue that was causing you concern that that there wasn't that available to you um

01:01:41 um yes so

01:01:43 yes so it wouldn't always be the case that we at the red cross would be given that information but what it indicated was that there was a bigger issue that there was not a complete list of

01:01:54 that there was not a complete list of people affected and where they were because that then impacted on the support that we or anybody else could give to them

01:02:02 if we move down to next page paragraph 74

01:02:05 74 where you address catering for the needs of specific groups of people and you provide this opinion

01:02:12 opinion in the immediate aftermath of the grenfell fire i believe that there was insufficient regard given by the authority

01:02:18 authority to catering to particular needs survivors turned to local churches and mosques for support british red cross teams reported that in the westway rest center there was very little private space including for

01:02:29 little private space including for example for for use by women or people of faith or areas where people could break their ramadan fast together we push for items such as screens to provide some privacy to survivors who

01:02:40 provide some privacy to survivors who are staying at a westeros center we also arrange for furniture and furnishings to try and improve the surroundings was that the position that there was

01:02:51 was that the position that there was concerns

01:02:52 concerns identified by british red cross and as a result you pushed for changes to address those yes

01:03:01 are you able to assist now how long it took for

01:03:04 took for those changes to be implemented

01:03:12 i can't remember exactly um people were staying at the rest center for a few nights um and i know that excuse me the conditions in on the first

01:03:23 excuse me the conditions in on the first night weren't as we would have wanted them to be

01:03:28 is that is that normal it's first nights it's

01:03:31 it's it's

01:03:32 it's an emergency situation it takes some time to

01:03:36 time to bring matters together when would you expect

01:03:38 expect a rest center which is accommodating people over nights to be at a

01:03:45 at a a suitable standard an acceptable standard

01:03:48 standard um

01:03:53 it's it's really important to remember the scale of this that there were literally hundreds of um beds that we'd helped to lay out within that space to make it into a rest center it's very difficult to make a space that size

01:04:04 difficult to make a space that size comfortable um

01:04:07 um the

01:04:08 the the center that had been identified was big enough in a way but it didn't have the facilities to to make it comfortable and to create different private spaces so

01:04:17 so whilst that potentially could have been thought about in advance if the numbers had been smaller for that rest center the space could have been used differently so this is really difficult i think um ideally we would advocate for everybody's needs to be

01:04:28 advocate for everybody's needs to be considered as early as possible um

01:04:32 um but acknowledging that with a scale something like this it could be difficult to get it as a within the first night but that was that would be our hope that people would have some privacy at least can i just ask you say that you push for

01:04:44 can i just ask you say that you push for items such as screens and and later that you arranged for furnishings who are you in contact with to do that so that would have been um the team on

01:04:55 so that would have been um the team on the ground via the beck the command center

01:04:58 center um

01:04:59 um who would then be liaising with the local authority to try and access things but then also our arrangements we have corporate partners at the red cross who are offering things like furniture and furnishings and we were able to tap into

01:05:10 furnishings and we were able to tap into that a slightly later date and we've seen some photographs of the rest center at westway some days after the fire and we saw that there were armchairs and sofas and sun

01:05:23 there were armchairs and sofas and sun is that the furnishing you provided or did that come from somewhere else um it could have been there was a mixture of providers that by sort of a few days in but we certainly had some partners who were providing things yeah

01:05:34 were providing things yeah yes thank you

01:05:38 obc were responsible as a local authority up until at least um friday the 16th of june at two o'clock at that stage london local authority gold were

01:05:50 london local authority gold were responsible for the response then we heard about the grenville fire response team which mr anderson has assisted us with which was set up over that weekend

01:06:02 using that as a as a marker friday

01:06:06 friday two or three days after the incidents are you able to say in your view when the west way or if the west way improved

01:06:16 um i'd say it was a gradual improvement over

01:06:19 over several days actually um so it's difficult to pinpoint a particular day let's discuss the purpose of the west way

01:06:30 way um were there issues regarding the understanding and promotion of what type of center the westway was

01:06:39 uh yes and who who it was for so yes let's let's look at an email to assist you in relation to that and which you sent or bk triple zero three eight five nine five

01:07:00 thank you

01:07:05 i'm just going to focus on the 1819 our 619 so just in the middle we see the british red cross and an email that you sent on the friday

01:07:16 that you sent on the friday 6 19 p.m to tony andrews and sue redmond

01:07:23 and the subject is issue calms

01:07:26 calms re immediate temporary community assistance center for the weekend

01:07:34 and it says this hi tony sue regarding promotion of the center and your point below recently manager delays with police running the friends and family center at westway to ensure that above staff can support

01:07:45 to ensure that above staff can support users of the ffrc as well as the users of the cac we are picking up some issues in terms of how the westward has been promoted and what is happening on the ground

01:07:58 and it gives a link there and it says that the western sports center is now the family and friends reception and has been staffed by the police

01:08:09 police you've copied into the text that appears here that the second part there's a special center the salvation army the salvation army is open until 11 p.m so you're raising an issue regarding how the west has been promoted and you're

01:08:21 the west has been promoted and you're giving two examples which are in the body of this email yes and it states your text then friends and family are not always being allowed in as people at the wester believe it to be a rest center for displaced residence

01:08:33 a rest center for displaced residence brackets

01:08:34 brackets cac

01:08:36 cac meaning community assistance center and that the friends and family fnf are to go to the salvation army we have some anger directed towards volunteers on the reception registration

01:08:47 volunteers on the reception registration desk

01:08:48 desk can we please make sure comms is joined up and that information flow clearly to make sure everyone in distress who comes to center is able to access the support they need

01:09:01 so it's a lot in there but you've raised the concern regarding how the west way has been presented at that stage and

01:09:11 how it seems to be presented not as a community assistance center but on this information that's been presented as a family and friends reception center alone

01:09:20 alone and then it refers to a special center at the salvation army we've just seen and

01:09:26 and does it follow that as of friday friday afternoon 16th of june that

01:09:32 june that people who were seeking information were being wrongly turned away or refused entry and to the west way was that the concern you were raising um

01:09:45 was that the concern you were raising um yes it does that is the concern i'm raising there where i say describe that people weren't always being allowed in and i think this was an example of the time where perhaps the west way

01:09:55 west way um the official function was starting to transition but the communication around that wasn't wasn't joined up um the the text in black there where i refer to somebody else's email center manager to

01:10:07 somebody else's email center manager to liaise with police running the friends and family center that wasn't the way that it was being described to us on the ground so i think that just indicates that there were there was confusion about the definition and therefore who could access it

01:10:18 could access it because at this looking at those two texts which you two different references if an individual is looking for information they're being directed to two different locations one at the west where one of the

01:10:30 one at the west where one of the salvation army is that a fair summary that was where people be directed through the official communication yes yes and to assist you we've got a number

01:10:41 yes and to assist you we've got a number of sources of information one from the salvation army adrian clee in his statement c v f six zeros 59 page four of his statements and his his

01:10:53 page four of his statements and his his evidence is that the salvation army which ran the friends and family reception center that closed at latest part way through thursday the 15th of june

01:11:04 15th of june with evidence from the metropolitan police that says that friends and family reception center was moved to the west way by the evening of the 14th of june on any basis

01:11:15 on any basis on the evening of the 16th of june um

01:11:19 um salvation army was not where the friends and family reception center was okay

01:11:24 okay so drawing that together is that there was still information where people have been sent to the wrong place is that correct

01:11:30 correct yes that's how it seems yes and that's the reason why you raised this issue regarding communications and clarity of communications exactly yeah

01:11:40 yeah i'm going to move on to multi-agency information sharing which in essence is going to deal with scg meetings very briefly and

01:11:51 and humanitarian assistance steering group meetings as well okay we've touched upon already has because of your role as a voluntary sector chair that you attended those meetings as sg

01:12:03 that you attended those meetings as sg seg meetings and is it fair to say that they're an important tool in information sharing between different agencies during emergency response yes and

01:12:14 and it follows that very important in building

01:12:17 building a sort of global situational awareness yes that's right and from your experience is it right that you've been on multiple scgs in the past

01:12:26 past yes that's true

01:12:29 we've had sight of the minutes and i'm not going to invite you to look at the minutes now some years later but did you have any general observations as to how the scg's operated on the 14th or 15th of june in

01:12:42 operated on the 14th or 15th of june in fulfilling that objective of sharing information and building situational awareness

01:12:50 i i don't recall anything that was particularly different so um i remember them

01:12:57 them being organized well chaired um an opportunity for all of the partners to feed in their information so it as far as i can remember it they fulfilled the purpose

01:13:08 remember it they fulfilled the purpose of building that situational update and they followed the same structure and agenda as i've been used to before and was a theme from your recollection those meetings the desire for greater

01:13:19 those meetings the desire for greater clarity as the numbers and identity of people who've been affected by the fire yes i think that was a theme through the first day of those meetings certainly yes

01:13:40 just going to move on to the humanitarian assistance staring group and again that was another specific but important forum for information sharing isn't that correct

01:13:51 information sharing isn't that correct yes that's right and you outline in your statement a power of 62 we don't need to turn to it but the main purpose of that steering group is to oversee and coordinate to support providers in

01:14:02 coordinate to support providers in response

01:14:03 response to the needs of people affected by the grenville fire and lead towards recovery a fair summary yes and we know that the first meeting was held on thursday the 15th of june at 2 o'clock

01:14:15 the 15th of june at 2 o'clock in relation to that from your experience of being on these meetings in the past would you have expected a steering group meeting to have taken place before two o'clock

01:14:26 have taken place before two o'clock on the second day of an incident um

01:14:32 there isn't a particular um timing specified for hasg as far as i'm aware um i think for something this scale i wasn't too surprised that it was happening the next

01:14:44 surprised that it was happening the next day

01:14:45 day because the situational awareness was still building yes and you say correctly that there isn't any particular time specified is that right that you're referring to the

01:14:56 right that you're referring to the london resilience documents humanitarian assistance framework that's right yes and to assist everybody at paragraph 4.17 it says that hsgs are expected to meet frequently in

01:15:07 hsgs are expected to meet frequently in the immediate aftermath of an instance but less often later stages in the initial stages meetings should be at least daily but it doesn't say in in the guidance

01:15:18 but it doesn't say in in the guidance that it should be held within the first 12 hours or 18 hours or 24 hours it's not

01:15:23 not um prescriptive in that sense is that correct i believe so yes

01:15:29 and in relation to that first meeting on the 15th of june at 2 o'clock it's right that you attended that meeting i did yes and let's turn to paragraph 63 of your statement please in

01:15:41 paragraph 63 of your statement please in relation to that

01:15:48 we see at the bottom of the page the meeting took place it was attended by several members of orbkc plus representatives from the nhs

01:15:59 and crews bereavement care and victim support amongst others sue redmond who we've heard evidence from shared a meeting

01:16:08 meeting the main purpose was to identify immediate and urgent needs and establish a structure for meeting those needs this is the part i'm inviting you to focus on my impression of this meeting was that it could be perhaps being better organized although i understand

01:16:20 better organized although i understand extremely stressful and distressing situation everyone was involved in especially the council staff we can move down to paragraph 65 there

01:16:31 we can move down to paragraph 65 there was discussion about the provision of support

01:16:33 support and the role as different organizations at the site performing in an attempt to identify gaps in their services being provided

01:16:40 provided topics raised include numbers of households affected accommodation welfare needs at this stage there is still no confirmation of numbers affected or confirmation of where all the survivors were located whether in temporary

01:16:52 were located whether in temporary accommodation or rest centers and that last part was that a matter of concern that there was still no confirmation of numbers affected or where survivors were located

01:17:05 yes because it meant that um without knowing how many and and where people were it was difficult to know what support was needed and where it was needed and was anything done in that meeting or

01:17:17 and was anything done in that meeting or suggested by you to address that lack of detail as the numbers of people affected in their location i

01:17:27 i don't

01:17:28 don't recall i don't think i would have said anything particularly about that because it's just an issue that everybody was aware of and we would be responding once that detail was available we would be able to do something with it but i don't think

01:17:39 do something with it but i don't think it's something that i would particularly have been able to contribute to

01:17:44 mr chairman we don't have a huge amount left but and we will go in go past the after and the mid-morning break it may be a natural break now yes all right well we can stop at that point thank you

01:17:56 at that point thank you this frag we have a break during the morning as i think you were told and this looks as is a good time to take it so we'll stop there we'll resume teas at 25 to 12

01:18:05 25 to 12 and i have to ask you while you're out of the room not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it all right stand yet thank you thank you very much would you go with the usher please

01:18:24 thank you 25 to 12.

01:37:06 would you like to spread to come back in please

01:37:22 all right mr sprague ready to carry on thank you thank you very much yes thank you keaton well welcome back mr practice the last few questions and we're dealing with a humanitarian assistant steering group order h a s g how would you

01:37:34 group order h a s g how would you pronounce that acronym h a sg has is the alternative we use sometimes

01:37:41 sometimes so i'll ask you about the hazak then and you'd

01:37:45 and you'd already have reduced by your statement your impressions of that initial meeting on the 15th of june i wanted to turn to a document which if we we just have in front of us now which you provided if you look at

01:37:57 now which you provided if you look at the second page please

01:38:02 and we see there that it's a humanitarian assistance steering group impact assessments now we know from the records and your your evidence on

01:38:13 the records and your your evidence on your two statements is that this was prepared in advance of the meeting on the 15th of june and then it was updated as a result of the meeting so quite a current document prepared on the 14th and then updated on

01:38:25 prepared on the 14th and then updated on the 15th of june and in relation to what

01:38:29 what humanitarian assistance impact assessment is perhaps the first paragraph assists emergencies affect communities in a wide variety of ways to understand what humanitarian assistance is required

01:38:42 humanitarian assistance is required one first needs to map out who is affected and how the emergency has affected them is that correct yes and we've seen the third paragraph to understand how emergencies affect individuals in our communities and those

01:38:54 individuals in our communities and those prioritize and scope the humanitarian assistance effort it's important to understand how emergencies impact upon the environment they live and work in and with that sort of background for an

01:39:05 and with that sort of background for an impact assessment and we can turn to the next page page three please

01:39:14 we can see it's 21 27 14 to june then updated post this meeting on the 16th of june

01:39:23 what i'm going to ask you to do is you can see at the bottom that page recommendations so these are recommendations which you prepared in this document and fed into the steering group

01:39:35 the steering group we could turn to the next page page 4.

01:39:40 so this documents set out the views of the british red cross as what needed to be done to meet the needs of those affected

01:39:48 affected number one engage community to identify what support they feel they need would be helpful is that correct yes

01:39:56 yes establishment of hac are similar a humanitarian assistance center and what would the benefit of having a hac what would that serve

01:40:06 the function of a center like that is to bring together a wider variety of support that's available for people who attend the centre so it's about a broader engagement and meeting needs in

01:40:18 broader engagement and meeting needs in a

01:40:19 a wider way

01:40:21 wider way support line providing emotional support practical support and sign posting i sign posting people to support available is that correct yes i will return that in a moment

01:40:32 i will return that in a moment support to injured and believe families and friends and i'm just going to deal with the last matter management of information and signposting to those displaced particularly over the next 24-48

01:40:45 particularly over the next 24-48 hours

01:40:46 hours and in relation to that matter the fact that it was emphasized particularly over the next 24 48 hours was there an identified need to manage information and signpost that

01:40:57 to manage information and signpost that support to those of uh displaced in the short term i think at the time that this was put together

01:41:06 together um

01:41:07 um was the time when it was quite confused about what support was available where and where people should go and also where people had been moved to or where people were resting and staying so i think that was

01:41:19 resting and staying so i think that was reflecting of that time and that's why we were emphasizing particularly over 24 48 hours as in it needs to be done as quickly as possible so those are the key matters in your mind in the british red cross's mind

01:41:30 mind in the british red cross's mind that needed to be addressed to that early stage as of the evening of the 14th of june uh yes but i think this one was the version that was updated on the 16th as well so that's that's a fair point thank

01:41:41 well so that's that's a fair point thank you

01:41:44 like you to turn to another email please which is obk triple zero two two seven two zero

01:41:52 and we look at the middle of page one please

01:41:57 we see an email from sue redmond which we've seen once before sue redmond and you are copied in we could scroll down thank you very much at sue redmond 20 to june

01:42:09 at sue redmond 20 to june 2234 you're copied in and sue redmond's to carolyn downs and it says carolyn the community engagement has been missing from everything and we've been

01:42:20 everything and we've been saying that from the start and yes everything in a support strand has got to be about what the community wants and recognizing what the community are already

01:42:28 already doing

01:42:30 doing and then overleaf at the next page please page two it says this not a criticism just a plea i ceased in emma from red cross so we had this conversation a lot

01:42:43 had this conversation a lot this is the 20th of june so almost a week after the incident we know by this stage that and the grenville fire response team london gold had now taken over their response

01:42:55 over their response and sue redmond was still involved and her

01:42:58 and her comment there that community engagement has been missing from everything we've been saying is from the start and had your conversations with her as this email suggests you did um i do remember talking with sue not

01:43:09 um i do remember talking with sue not specifically but i do um particularly at the response team in victoria yeah and what was there concerns

01:43:16 concerns expressed in your discussions regarding the lack of community engagement

01:43:22 yes yes okay can you recall now what what that issue was we're talking very global terms can you give any more details as to what the sort of what was lacking

01:43:38 um i think it was it's very difficult to recall specifics from that time but um in my role as part of the humanitarian assistance group

01:43:49 group i was on behalf of the red cross and von secret is trying to put forward the points that to provide the right sort of support means you need to understand better the people who who need the support

01:44:00 people who who need the support and hopefully have ideally have that shaped by the people and by the community

01:44:05 community um

01:44:06 um because that makes the support as appropriate as possible and right for them as individuals and as a community and

01:44:16 by that time as i remember and looking at these emails the structures weren't there to do that properly what sort of structure would you need for that to take place

01:44:30 as an example from my perspective at the red cross

01:44:33 red cross and one thing we've learned from this is to put roles in place that specifically focus on community engagement for example but that would need to be part of a bigger structure bigger infrastructure with representatives from

01:44:44 infrastructure with representatives from the local authority and others potentially getting involved because it's all about building a shared picture so i think really it's it's about roles that's focused specifically on community engagement and having that as a channel

01:44:55 engagement and having that as a channel to feed into the humanitarian assistance group

01:44:58 group and that those roles and that structure would that be something which should be pre-existing rather than being set up post-incident um

01:45:08 um ideally i suppose in my experience and what i would hope would be that yes there would be already existing connections with with communities understanding of communities and their likely needs in an emergency situation

01:45:21 likely needs in an emergency situation where they may go what sort of places might open their doors it's all part of that so yes ideally at least some of that information would be in place before yes final topic is public communication and perhaps we could open up your statement

01:45:33 perhaps we could open up your statement please uh paragraph 78 a please that's b or c six zeros five zero

01:45:49 i'm going to look at some of your closing remarks in your first statement in a moment

01:45:57 thank you

01:46:02 you said it's clear accessible information should have been provided to survivors earlier including on where to go for help that's something you've told us this morning quote there was a delay in providing information and it heightens the

01:46:14 information and it heightens the difficulties for the survivors in their ability to obtain the emotional and practical support they needed is that correct yes

01:46:24 yes and what we're going to do is we're just going to explore the other

01:46:28 the other changes in terms of the avenues as to communication one is the support line and then we'll touch upon um leaflets and newsletters very briefly and this sister recollection i'm going to touch upon some of the documentation

01:46:40 to touch upon some of the documentation you provide us and brought by british red cross

01:46:43 red cross so

01:46:44 so the last of two items is the telephone support line and we can take this relatively quickly and

01:46:51 and touched upon in your statement and in documents we've seen already before the panel

01:46:55 panel and is it correct that one of the areas the british red cross was involved in providing information to those effect effector was through a support line yes and again is it right from an early stage on the 14th of june you suggested

01:47:08 stage on the 14th of june you suggested opening

01:47:09 opening um the british red cross support telephone support line i did yes and that was a suggestion you made at an scg level at a strategic coordinating group level that's right

01:47:20 coordinating group level that's right yeah and we know that

01:47:24 that a british red cross support line had already been opened um in relation to the manchester arena incidents which had taken place on the 22nd of may and a few weeks before this incident in

01:47:36 and a few weeks before this incident in north kensington is that correct yes that's right

01:47:41 and again it's right and we've seen in documentation to support us that you raised at the humanitarian assistant steering group meeting on the 15th of june again using

01:47:52 meeting on the 15th of june again using the the television support line uh yes

01:47:57 uh yes and after that meeting is it right that you received confirmation that british red cross should use the helpline to assist grenville survivors it is right but i'm not

01:48:08 it is right but i'm not it wasn't immediately following that meeting i think following that meeting is potentially a few days later than that

01:48:14 that well

01:48:15 well from records and we it appears that um it was operational from the 16th of june friday the 16th of june does that sound about right uh

01:48:26 about right uh yes it could be if that's what the records show yes well let's have a look at it to assist you as brc six zeros eight seven and this is a b or c operational update

01:48:42 and if we could go to update nine which is at the bottom of page 25. again documents you've helpfully provided the inquiry

01:48:53 and these update or reviews is it right this is a process that british red cross circulates to key members and operational update overview sometimes on a daily daily basis if not

01:49:05 sometimes on a daily daily basis if not more than that yes so this is something that the central crisis response team pulled together based on all the different information that's coming together so yes that's right and it stays there under the date

01:49:17 and it stays there under the date operational updates the 17th of june which is the saturday please find updated information in red and then go to the bottom of the page we see under

01:49:27 see under support line right at the bottom in red

01:49:33 in red 13 calls relating to grenville yesterday four further calls today brc will be the only agency operating a support line for grenville tower fire piecing it together if there was cold

01:49:45 piecing it together if there was cold yesterday

01:49:46 yesterday to the line support line that means it was operational on friday the 16th of june does that sound about right um it must have been i mean i i honestly can't remember exactly when the agreement was

01:49:57 remember exactly when the agreement was made for it to be the only telephone line but given that it was already operational um

01:50:04 um it wouldn't surprise me that people were starting to ring a red cross support line relating to the grenfell fire as well as the other incidents that it was there for

01:50:12 there for was there any reluctance that you sensed or was expressed to you about using the british red cross support line

01:50:22 reluctance from who sorry reluctance forgive me reluctance from the local authority and accepting that offer um

01:50:30 um i don't know if it was reluctance but that there was a delay in accepting the offer yes

01:50:37 and was any reason why there was expressed to you that there was a delay in accepting the offer

01:50:44 offer i don't remember a specific reason i know that the local authority had other telephone lines um that were available but i don't know whether that was the reason they didn't accept our offer we've seen reference to

01:50:55 accept our offer we've seen reference to uh housing line being used initially as a

01:50:59 a conduit for support is that what you're referring to yes and i remember i do remember um that my team being asked to sort of sign post people

01:51:10 being asked to sort of sign post people on to that line but then i believe it was quite quickly overwhelmed okay

01:51:15 okay so you were aware at an early stage that the bkc housing line was was was not coping with the volume of calls

01:51:22 calls that's my memory yes yes okay and let's touch upon another email or bk triple zero two one zero seven three which deals with the subject of the operation of the support line

01:51:35 it's an email from tony andrews on the 17th of june at 1728. it's addressed to you amongst other people

01:51:43 people on the sprague and the third line of the email under key points and actions tony to reinforce message from frontline staff that help line number needs to be

01:51:54 staff that help line number needs to be published immediately so this is on the 17th of june in the in the

01:52:00 the evening late afternoon early evening were you aware of any issues in relation to the public publicizing of the pressure red cross helpline number

01:52:14 um yes and i think that email reflects it yes

01:52:19 it yes so there was a support line it was set up you said there was a delay in setting up and there appears to be a delay in publicizing the fact that there was a support line yes which um

01:52:30 yes which um i think reflects this confusion around is it going to be the red cross and if so what's the number and how do we promote that on behalf of the response team and the local authority yes

01:52:41 local authority yes and were any provisions made on the british red cross support line for individuals who are non-english speakers

01:52:50 it's always something that we try to address

01:52:54 address we

01:52:56 we as the red cross use facilities like language line for example and we will use those as part of our usual capability it's not always something that is able to put in place really quickly depending on languages and range of

01:53:08 depending on languages and range of languages that are needed but we always do try to do that so a feature that you're alive to but there can be um difficulties in putting in place that capacity yes i think that's fair yeah

01:53:20 capacity yes i think that's fair yeah well let's have a look at some records again to assist you if we return back to the operational update documents brc6087 we can fast forward to page 36.

01:53:33 we've already seen one of these documents this is the 21st of june 2017.

01:53:40 and we turn we go down to support line and we turn over to page the next page please

01:53:46 please thank you so we've identified the date and

01:53:50 and you see the paragraph there support line

01:53:56 and it says that the amount of calls that received support line operating from norway just in red text so that's new and then

01:54:04 and then the bottom section currently securing a process for providing interpreter services on a support line the number will then be advertised in multiple languages

01:54:15 languages so the position would be on the 21st of june

01:54:18 june it had been set up it appears on the 16th of june but there was still no facility at that stage to provide support for non-english speakers is that correct

01:54:29 speakers is that correct it does look that way yes and you mentioned it's something that you're aware of this indicates that there was an identification of that need and it was an effort to secure that process

01:54:41 an effort to secure that process let's look to the last document we go please

01:54:44 please actually we can go to page 38 of this document

01:54:48 document thank you this is the 24th of june three days later and if we turn to page 39 of that document

01:55:01 we see support line right down at the bottom

01:55:06 so three days later 24 to june we see the entry i just read out a moment ago currently screwing a process and then in red text indicating it's new this has been arranged and leaflets have

01:55:17 this has been arranged and leaflets have been translated into key languages identified so drawing that together support lines set up on the 16th of june it appears delay in setting up delay in advertising

01:55:32 delay in setting up delay in advertising then we see that 21st of june still no

01:55:36 still no ability to provide language translation for non-english speakers and then the 24th of june is the first time there is that availability of it in of the support line to facilitate those

01:55:48 of the support line to facilitate those who don't speak english uh it from the date of that report it does suggest that's the first time i'm not sure if there was one in an intervening period but that's the update on that report i think as well

01:55:59 update on that report i think as well the other thing to say is um it was quite difficult to know all the languages that were needed because that needs assessment wasn't something that was available so um

01:56:11 something that was available so um we needed to make sure that the right languages are provided but there were points at which we didn't know what they were okay

01:56:19 there may be reasons why but from a from a public-facing perspective for the difficulty was if from in an ethically diverse area if a person would speak english that wouldn't be able to utilize

01:56:31 be able to utilize themselves individually the support line for a number of days is that correct um

01:56:36 um yes and it's something that we were very well aware of as a red cross we were trying to

01:56:40 trying to address it through the support line and also having things translated into different languages at the scene um and at the various rest centers as well so yes i think that's that's fair to say it was a challenge yeah

01:56:51 to say it was a challenge yeah and in relation to the operation of the support line in english was there issues that you were aware of in those early days as to his operation

01:57:04 um there was there were challenges around um

01:57:09 um the information that was available for us to brief the support line with yes that i think um i think i've seen some evidence about as well

01:57:17 well sorry i think i've seen some evidence about that as well about some specific instances yeah and perhaps i could deal with it shortly is that there was emails which were sent to you on the 20th of june

01:57:27 june indicating that they were testing the line effectively and the experience and it's described that the person that spoke to was warm and friendly positive

01:57:37 positive but the negative was that they were vague in their response and the only thing was that that person who called up was referred to the west way which touches upon your concern that there was

01:57:47 there was that sort of lack of information to forward on and is it right then on the 21st of june and brc staff would then provide us with a guidance pack to ensure that they had

01:57:59 a guidance pack to ensure that they had further details to to deal with queries is that correct yes i think that's right we were

01:58:05 we were provided with basically a briefing document that was the place that pulled together all that information that was available

01:58:11 available and it's

01:58:12 and it's again from under documentation it would appear that it took a few more days at least up to 24 to june for

01:58:18 for those teething problems to be ironed out is that a fair summary um yes i think it is i think it's also fair to say that um

01:58:27 um it was still a very dynamic picture there was still lots of information to be collated and pulled together in one place

01:58:33 place so the briefing document will have been updated at various points i can remember in that time so having everything in one place that was a constant picture to brief support line teams and others on was quite difficult but yeah

01:58:46 was quite difficult but yeah no more support line we're going to turn to flyers

01:58:50 to flyers leaflets and newsletters and you've previously mentioned that and we've seen that there was flyers or leaflets created to advertise a support line which we touched upon um

01:59:03 which we touched upon um were you aware prior to the 16th of june whether there was any leaflets or flyers distributed in the community by the british red cross or any other formal agency

01:59:16 i'm not aware of anything that was formal but i i could be wrong because i wasn't always there on the scene the information probably suggested wasn't but i just wonder if you had any independent recollection

01:59:27 independent recollection and we saw at your statement when we were looking at paragraph 78 a that there was an improvement in relation to communication made by the grenville fire response team when they instructed the british red

01:59:38 when they instructed the british red cross to compile and produce daily newsletters to provide information to survivors and to make sure this information was distributed in relation to newsletters was that something

01:59:49 something later in the timeline which was created can you recall when that was um not exactly but i do remember it was a few days after the fire itself yes and it was at the response team that happened

02:00:08 you say this at your statement 78 paragraph 78b is that once a decision had been taken to provide information by way of newsletters these are initially only produced in english the brc ensured that these letters were

02:00:19 the brc ensured that these letters were translated into multiple languages to try and reach as many people as possible at the request of the bec supported delivery of the newsletter to a number of hotels where survivors were known to have been located

02:00:31 have been located so nessen's newsletters initially in english bjorci then facilitated their translation and then in due course there was a request that they would be delivered to hotels

02:00:42 that they would be delivered to hotels is that correct yes that's the sort of sequencing you can't really help us with the fine detail as to dates really sorry i wish i could but i can't remember those

02:00:53 remember those well miss prague i'm very grateful for your time today and the information the hard copy information you provide us which has allowed me to draw out those points today and would the chairman's leave perhaps

02:01:04 and would the chairman's leave perhaps we could have a short break yes um well mr sprague keating thinks he's asked all the questions he needs to ask but we always have a

02:01:14 have a short break at this stage to give him a chance to check that he's not left anything out and also to allow others who are following the proceedings but not from within the room to suggest questions that perhaps we ought to ask

02:01:25 questions that perhaps we ought to ask you

02:01:26 you so we'll break now um mr keating if i said 10 past 12 would that give you enough time do you think that should be ample time well we'll see how we go if you need more time you can indicate

02:01:36 indicate we'll say

02:01:37 we'll say that we'll break now come back at 10 past 12

02:01:40 past 12 and then we'll see if there's any more questions for you fine all right thank you would you give the usher please

02:01:55 all right mr keating well we'll say 10 past 12. if it turns out that you need more time just get the usher to come tell us thank you very much

02:10:45 would you ask the spreadsheet come back in please

02:10:59 thanks sprague we'll see if there's any more questions for you yes thank you thank you mr chairman there is a number of questions and it can distill to three relatively brief areas perhaps you could assist us with mr sprague

02:11:11 assist us with mr sprague first of all the west way so we know the westward became the consolidated rest center the first question did you think that the westway was appropriate for the in hindsight as the location of

02:11:23 for the in hindsight as the location of the consolidated rest center

02:11:29 i think in terms of location it was quite appropriate because it was near and it was like it was a place that people could get to people who were directly affected um as a building it had its challenges but many rest

02:11:41 it had its challenges but many rest centres do

02:11:44 and in terms of challenges what would you say what are the challenges of the building the fact that it was a big space um particularly for a rest center with lots of people who were needing therefore to be together in that in that

02:11:56 therefore to be together in that in that space so lots of mattresses together so that's where it potentially wasn't ideal you mentioned a lack of privacy being one of the features westway transitioned to a community

02:12:09 westway transitioned to a community assistance center so the next question is in in hindsight do you consider that the west way was appropriate as a community assistance center or humanitarian assistance center

02:12:23 [Music] i mean it was big enough to house all of the different agencies that needed to come together to provide support and big enough well it was of a good size to

02:12:34 well it was of a good size to accommodate lots of people at once so that's that was a positive but again the space itself needed some adjustments to make it um

02:12:44 um appropriate in terms of division of space and things like that and to make it more comfortable for people so in terms of size accessibility good but it's actually utilizing the space

02:12:55 but it's actually utilizing the space within better yes

02:13:00 we know that the west way by the evening of the 14th of june was the official consolidated rest center we've heard a number of other rest centers

02:13:09 centers spontaneous rest centers remained open within the community such as the rugby portobello trust the clement james center and they continued to be utilized by the community on the

02:13:21 to be utilized by the community on the 15th 16th to june and thereafter was that something that you were aware of that

02:13:27 that members of the community were utilizing other other locations uh yes we were aware of that and in terms of the support british red cross provided am i right in your understanding your

02:13:39 am i right in your understanding your evidence that that support was solely focused in those early days within

02:13:45 within the the west way that's where we when the west wave was defined as the main center that's where we focused our efforts but we weren't solely there because we knew there were people in

02:13:56 because we knew there were people in different places so we had um people operating almost in outreach roles or

02:14:03 roles or engagement roles if you like to to try and build the picture of where people were but predominantly we were focused out the west way and in relation to outreach work is it right that took place a number of days

02:14:15 right that took place a number of days later it wasn't immediate uh

02:14:18 uh not immediate um i i think over the weekend we had people who were going out and and trying to find um going to the various hotels and places where we we've been told or we believed people were and

02:14:30 been told or we believed people were and trying to understand their needs but it immediately was focused on the centers and do you think in retrospect the british cross should have perhaps provided more support on the 15 16 and 17 to june as example at those

02:14:44 15 16 and 17 to june as example at those other locations such as the rugby portobello trust the clement james center

02:14:50 i think ideally and it's something we've definitely learned from as an organisation that to have people whose role it is to engage with different places in a community and and

02:15:01 different places in a community and and talk to different community leaders and different organizations that's something that that would have been beneficial it's not

02:15:07 it's not only our role to do that and i would say that was the point at the time that there could have been a number of organizations involved in that and some of that information could have been known sooner as we've discussed but it's definitely something we've learned that

02:15:18 definitely something we've learned that community engagement is something that and we are investing more in that because it's just so vital and it was wonderful that those centers opened up and necessary that they did so um and we want to kind of be closer to

02:15:30 um and we want to kind of be closer to that and understand it and help to connect it all together as part of a coordinated response and the final point and the discrete points which flows from the support line we're discussing and the difficulties and the delay in relation

02:15:42 difficulties and the delay in relation to

02:15:43 to um having that facility for language support to be available on the line you described one of the difficulties was getting information as to the different

02:15:54 information as to the different languages which may be required just to follow up on that can you recall what efforts if any you made to try to get that information as to the languages of those who were affected

02:16:08 my role in that would have been through the humanitarian assistance groups to keep flagging the issue that we would believe there's a number of languages and we need to know what they are to be able to provide the right support in

02:16:19 able to provide the right support in those languages and do you have a recollection of raising that within those steering group meetings i don't have a specific report recollection of that i'm afraid

02:16:32 very grateful for your time today there are all the questions i have was there anything else that you considered was relevant to the inquiries investigation that you wanted to raise which i haven't covered

02:16:43 um no i think you've covered everything thank you thank you well it just remains for me to say on behalf of inquiry team thank you so much for attending today and providing that documentation prior to today

02:16:54 to today and i should like to thank you as well on behalf of the panel all three members of the panel who've i think found it very interesting to hear what you have to tell us and very useful as well so thank you very much for coming to give your evidence

02:17:06 much for coming to give your evidence and you're now free to go thank you and thank you for everything you're doing as well thank you very much

02:17:23 well mr keating we're going to have another witness in the moment but there's also a change of cost amongst the council i think there is yes so uh for the usual reasons we'll rise for a couple of minutes while that happens thank you and

02:17:34 minutes while that happens thank you and perhaps you'd ask the usher to come and find us as soon as we're ready to continue of course thank you very much

02:22:30 yes just a minute it's good morning mr chairman or good afternoon i should say good afternoon members of the panel i now call miss catherine hammond please thank you

02:22:46 good afternoon miss hammond i gather your game to affirm i am the words are there on the screen would you read them out please certainly i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be

02:22:57 that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down and make yourself comfortable

02:23:06 right yes mr miller thank you mr chairman uh ms hammond good afternoon can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you my pleasure uh

02:23:18 extremely grateful to you my pleasure uh a few points by way of um by way of introduction if you could keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right over there can get your words down very clearly on the transcript uh that would be very good

02:23:30 transcript uh that would be very good please also avoid nodding or shaking your head you have to say yes or no as the case may be otherwise it doesn't come out on the transcript i'll be asking you a number of questions if at any point you want me to repeat

02:23:41 if at any point you want me to repeat the question or you don't understand it i can either repeat it or ask it in a different way we'll be taking breaks apart from lunchtime today mid-afternoon today and during the course of tomorrow in

02:23:52 during the course of tomorrow in accordance with the usual schedule but if you need a break at any other time please just let us know now you've made three statements to the inquiry and i'm going to show them to you first they will appear as will all documents that we're going to look at

02:24:04 documents that we're going to look at together on your screen the first is dated the 5th of march 2019 and that's at cab 30s 14764 please is that the first page of your first

02:24:15 is that the first page of your first witness statement yes it is uh and can we please go to page seven page 25

02:24:22 page 25 and you'll see above the date of the third of march 2019 is a signature is that your signature yes it is and if we go please to your second witness statement cab 3014799

02:24:35 there's the first page bearing the date 10th of july 2020. is that the first page of your statement second statement yes and if we go please to page 20 you'll see a signature above the date

02:24:48 you'll see a signature above the date or next to the date is that your signature yes it is and your third statement is that cab 30 is 14816 that's dated the 30th of august

02:24:59 that's dated the 30th of august 2020 is that the first page of your third statement yes and if we go please to page 35 you'll see a signature above the date is that your signature yes have you read

02:25:10 that your signature yes have you read each of these three statements recently i have yes and can you confirm for us that the contents of each of these three statements is true it is thank you now you've also

02:25:21 now you've also produced 96 exhibits marked a kh-1 to kh-96 which form part of your evidence is that right correct now um i want to start if i may please with some background at the time of the

02:25:33 with some background at the time of the fire at grenfell tower on the 14th of june 2017 you were i think director of the civil content contingencies secretariat or ccs within the cabinet office is that right that's right

02:25:45 office is that right that's right how long were you in that role before june 2017

02:25:49 june 2017 i had joined the previous summer august of

02:25:53 of the previous year and i think you had in that role is this right overall responsibility for ccs and you reported to the deputy national security adviser

02:26:04 security adviser who was i think paddy mcguinness at the time that's right yes and i think his full

02:26:09 full title was deputy national security advisor for intelligence security and resilience is that right that's right

02:26:17 and

02:26:19 before that i don't think we have uh anything in your statement by way of a run-up could you give us a thumbnail sketch of your academic background and your qualifications

02:26:31 your qualifications um

02:26:32 um so my academic background is i'm a graduate in english literature and in public policy i spent most of my career working in and around the home office in the criminal justice system

02:26:43 the criminal justice system and prior to joining ccs i had worked for sir john chilcott on his inquiry into the iraq war now i'm going to ask you about the policies procedures and plans that were put in place by central government to

02:26:54 put in place by central government to deal with an emergency a major emergency and i'm going to ask first about the statutory framework i'm not to be clear i'm not asking you to interpret it i'm

02:27:05 i'm not asking you to interpret it i'm asking for your contemporaneous understanding of of how it worked now is it right uh that you understood at the time that the framework for emergency planning and response arrangements in the united kingdom was

02:27:17 arrangements in the united kingdom was governed and is still governed by the civil contingencies act 2004 that's right and and also the subordinate legislation the civil contingencies act 2004 contingency

02:27:29 civil contingencies act 2004 contingency planning regulations 2005. correct yes and there were i think uh statutory and non-statutory sets of guidance emergency preparedness being the statutory set and

02:27:40 preparedness being the statutory set and emergency response and recovery being the non-statutory set is that right yes i think that's right and uh section one of the act did you understand introduce the concept of an emergency including an

02:27:51 the concept of an emergency including an event or situation which threatens serious damage to human welfare in a place in the uk yes yes and is it right that the grenfell tower fire satisfied that definition yes

02:28:02 yes now part one of the act i think also focuses on local arrangements for civil protection and and establishes a statutory framework of roles and responsibilities for what are designated

02:28:13 responsibilities for what are designated as category 1 and category 2 responders is that correct that's right yes and that's how you understood it at the time yes

02:28:20 yes now can i ask you to look at please at section 5 1 of the act it's and we find that at c a b four zeros four six one six page seven

02:28:31 four zeros four six one six page seven we'll have we'll have page one to start with so we can be sure we're looking at the right thing there it is there's the civil contingencies act 2004 and you can see on the first page under

02:28:43 and you can see on the first page under section one meaning of emergency and the definition is there as i put to you now if we go please to page seven

02:28:52 you can see a heading civil protection section five general measures and it says this under subsection one a minister of the crown may by order

02:29:03 minister of the crown may by order require a personal body listed in part one of schedule one to perform a function of that person or body for the purpose of a preventing the occurrence of an emergency b reducing controlling

02:29:15 of an emergency b reducing controlling or mitigating the effects of an emergency or c taking other action in connection with an emergency what was your understanding of the powers available

02:29:26 powers available to ministers under that section in general terms at the time of the grenfell tower fire i i think that is the section of the legislation that gives ministers power which has given effect

02:29:39 ministers power which has given effect through the regulations to designate category 1 and 2 responders if we go to page 9 you can see under general section 7 urgency this section applies

02:29:51 section 7 urgency this section applies where there is an urgent need to make provision of a kind that could be made by an order under section 5 subsection 1 or by regulations under section 6 subsection 1 but there is insufficient time for the order or regulations to be

02:30:03 time for the order or regulations to be made

02:30:04 made did you have an understanding of were you conscious of that power at the time of the grenfell tower of fire um i was familiar with the with the act yes right

02:30:15 yes right um my question is first was any consideration given during the days after the fire in which you were involved

02:30:27 in which you were involved so far as you know to invoking or exercising the powers i've just shown you both under section set 5.1 or or and or under section 7.

02:30:39 or and or under section 7. i don't recall any consideration of invoking powers under section 7. section 5 i think refers to the regulations which were already in existence

02:30:50 existence right so just to be clear and just get back to

02:30:53 back to page

02:30:54 page seven please subsection one of section five is it the case as a fact that no consideration was given by any minister during the days after the fire

02:31:05 the fire to making an order under that subsection not that i recollect no was the topic raised at all to your to the best of your recollection

02:31:16 your recollection not to the best of my recollection

02:31:19 now it's also right to think that part two of the act makes provision for emergency powers for example specific legislative measures that might be necessary to deal with the effects of the most extreme emergencies am i right

02:31:31 the most extreme emergencies am i right in thinking that as a fact those powers were not used in relation to the grenfell tower fire that's correct yes uh it's also right i think and just confirm for us if you would that the cabinet office and other government

02:31:43 cabinet office and other government departments are not responders for the purposes of the act that's correct yes now i want to ask you next about the cabinet office and the uh and its role in the broader policy framework

02:31:55 in the broader policy framework first is it right that the cabinet office is responsible for formulating the policy framework within which emergency response arrangements in england and wales are delivered that's correct the cabinet office is

02:32:07 that's correct the cabinet office is responsible for the civil contingencies act and for the regulations and a number of pieces of the guidance that sit beneath it although not all and within the cabinet office is it right that the civil contingency

02:32:19 right that the civil contingency secretariat the ccs leads the work on emergency response and resilience that's correct um particularly in relation to civil emergencies there are

02:32:30 relation to civil emergencies there are other responsibilities in relation to different kinds of risks particularly threat based risks yes and just drawing that out a little further could we please go to your first statement

02:32:40 statement page 9 paragraph 29

02:32:50 and there you say in the last sentence ccs is primarily a coordinating body in the planning response and recovery phases and has no direct operational role in the local response to an

02:33:01 role in the local response to an emergency that's right is it you confirm that that's correct yes and i think it's right also that the ccs itself is responsible for the guidance which accompanies the 2004 act

02:33:12 which accompanies the 2004 act uh including emergency preparedness and emergency response and recovery that's correct now we'll come back to those guidance documents later um

02:33:23 um if you go please to page six of your statement paragraph 21 you say

02:33:31 you say uh

02:33:32 uh having confirmed the point that i've just put to you uh in the second sentence it does not however have an inspectorate role that is it is not the role of ccs to make sure that local responders fulfill their

02:33:43 sure that local responders fulfill their duties under the act

02:33:47 and then you continue in the same paragraph

02:33:49 paragraph and you say ccs this is in the last sentence

02:33:55 ccs has also developed resilience standards and is piloting an approach which allows lrfs to assess themselves against them um now given that the ccs does not have

02:34:07 um now given that the ccs does not have an inspectorate role um

02:34:11 um can you just explain what is meant when you say a non-statutory assurance role it means um a role working in supportive local responders to help them understand

02:34:24 local responders to help them understand their own level of preparedness particularly through their resilience capabilities survey which i think is also described in my statement

02:34:35 also described in my statement and

02:34:36 and some work subsequent to the grenfell tower of fire to to enhance that particularly through the creation of resilience standards against which local areas can assess themselves right so you do refer to it in your

02:34:48 right so you do refer to it in your statement let's go to page six please paragraph well we're in the paragraph itself um you say we draw together a picture of the level of resilience capabilities in

02:34:59 the level of resilience capabilities in place across england and wales through the resilience capabilities survey

02:35:03 survey i'll come back to that if i need to in due course but turning to the role of dclg if we go please to page seven of your statement paragraph 25 you say this

02:35:16 as explained above at paragraph 21 responsibility for oversight of the local response capability is shared between ccs and the dclg resilience and emergencies division dclg red with ccs

02:35:28 emergencies division dclg red with ccs leading on policy development and red on lrf engagement dclg red's role is to interact directly with lrfs and provide central government representation at lrf meetings during the planning phase and

02:35:40 meetings during the planning phase and staff the government liaison officer role during emergencies to provide ministers government departments of the local area with situational awareness act as a critical friend and to help identify and resolve any issues

02:35:51 identify and resolve any issues outstanding now and assuming that's correct um and focusing particularly on where you say

02:36:00 you say shared between ccs and the dclg resilience and emergencies division red before the fire in june 2017 did you yourself ever experience any problems or

02:36:12 yourself ever experience any problems or hear of any problems arising from that division of responsibilities between ccs on the one hand the dclg red on the other for overseeing local response capability

02:36:23 response capability um

02:36:24 um not to my recollection i think it's a fairly clear division of responsibilities and teams that worked very closely together to to resolve any shared

02:36:36 to resolve any shared issues

02:36:43 if we go to page 10 of your statement then paragraph 32 you provide an overview i think there of the role of the ccs uh and give us five instances there um

02:36:55 uh and give us five instances there um of of the basic role uh and then in paragraph 33 uh you say the ccs's work is focused on three key areas risk assessment one two preparation and planning

02:37:06 one two preparation and planning including building capability and training and three response and recovery now i'm going to examine each of those topics

02:37:13 topics in detail with you and i want first please then to turn to risk assessment is it right that the ccs as part of this role is responsible for producing a national risk assessment or

02:37:25 producing a national risk assessment or nra

02:37:27 nra that's correct yes and that happens once every two years does it correct and does did at the time of the fire that's right yes now is it right that the deputy director was paul mclachly under

02:37:40 deputy director was paul mclachly under your leadership at the time of the fire that's correct and i think he is this right he was responsible for national risks and infrastructure which would include producing the nra yes that's right

02:37:51 producing the nra yes that's right and and uh if we look at his statement please cab 3014798

02:37:59 and go please to page three paragraph eleven

02:38:03 eleven paul mcclockery says

02:38:06 says the nra is a classified document it identifies what the government considers to be the most serious types of risks facing the united kingdom over the next five years in order for a risk to be

02:38:17 five years in order for a risk to be included in the nra it must constitute a civil emergency within the meaning of the civil contingencies act 2004 the 2004 act be an event that could plausibly happen within the next five years

02:38:28 years and exceed a minimum impact threshold there are usually between 70 and 100 risks detailed in the nra now i'm assuming that well first of all do you agree with that

02:38:40 well first of all do you agree with that yes yes

02:38:42 yes yes on that basis is it right that the nra informs capability development and provides a basis for allocating resources to particular capabilities

02:38:53 capabilities that's right both the um risk assessment and the set of planning assumptions generated from it and they're an important and second part of the picture are used to inform capability

02:39:05 are used to inform capability development

02:39:08 can i ask you please to keep your voice up a little bit of course sorry that's right um

02:39:13 right um they informed capability development and does that in turn inform the allocation of resources to particular capabilities it's certainly part of the evidence base

02:39:24 it's certainly part of the evidence base which is used to do that yes yes now um uh the most is this right the most recent edition of the national risk assessment nra before the grenfell tower fire was the

02:39:35 before the grenfell tower fire was the 2016 nra is that right that's right and i think that was released in the in the february of 2017 yes correct yes now if we turn back to your statement please your second statement this time

02:39:46 please your second statement this time page two

02:39:47 page two paragraph six

02:39:52 you say it's and it's at the foot of your screen the 2016 nra provided information that departments agencies and local planners stroke responders could use to determine one the scale duration and severity of

02:40:04 one the scale duration and severity of the consequences of emergencies which can be used to inform generic planning and capability building and two risks which may merit additional specific planning and or capability building

02:40:16 planning and or capability building to supplement those generic plans and capabilities so is it right that the nra is the basis from which resilience forums should develop their own local risk assessments adapted to local

02:40:29 risk assessments adapted to local circumstances yes the nra and the planning assumptions i think also um

02:40:35 um play into that process right

02:40:38 right and in relation to the preparation of the 2016 nra um

02:40:43 um is it right and i think you confirmed this um let's go to paragraph 10 where we see this on page four if we go to the top of page four

02:40:54 four you say for each risk within the 2016 nra there was a designated risk owner the designated risk owner was a government department or agency designated risk owners have a range of responsibilities for the risks that they

02:41:05 responsibilities for the risks that they own

02:41:08 and and

02:41:12 is it right that the designated risk owner

02:41:14 owner was fixed as a particular government department or agency in each nra yes that's right usually the department or agency with the greatest expertise in

02:41:25 or agency with the greatest expertise in relation to that particular risk right so for fire is it was the risk owner the dc-lg until it moved to the home office as those responsibilities moved between departments yes the ownership would have

02:41:37 departments yes the ownership would have moved with it so in 2017 it was with the home office right and did that involve a move of staff within um one department familiar with

02:41:49 um one department familiar with contingency planning in respect of the risks owned by that department to another department um my recollection and apology this is some years ago is that the the teams responsible for um policy in relation to

02:42:02 responsible for um policy in relation to fire moved between the two departments so moved from dclg to the home office i see and you say responsible for policy did that include policy and planning for civil

02:42:13 policy and planning for civil contingencies as part of the nra exercise it would include ownership of that risk in the nra yes thank you now let's then get back to paul mcglocker's first statement

02:42:25 nine cab3014798

02:42:26 this time page four paragraph thirteen

02:42:31 he says here the relevant department for each risk

02:42:35 each risk is responsible for collecting evidence to inform the risk assessment process that may have been done internally or by consulting external experts either in other departments or in academia stroke

02:42:46 other departments or in academia stroke industry

02:42:47 industry and then he goes on the relevant department is then required to use that evidence to identify for each risk type the reasonable worst case scenario rwc the likelihood of the rwc occurring and

02:42:59 the likelihood of the rwc occurring and the potential impact if it does is that right do you agree with that yes now the rwc is the reasonable worst case scenario

02:43:09 scenario um

02:43:10 um does that mean just expanding it the worst outcome in terms of disruption casualties and other relevant factors that can reasonably be expected to occur if the risk transpires

02:43:23 risk transpires i think the the way we usually describe it is um

02:43:26 it is um a plausible but challenging manifestation of the risk so not the absolute worst version but something which would be extremely difficult but is also reasonably likely within the

02:43:38 but is also reasonably likely within the next five years

02:43:44 and what is the yardstick or objective standard for reasonably

02:43:52 in relation to reasonable worst case scenario yes um so there is a there is a plausibility um yardstick which is used in the risk assessment but there's an awful lot of professional judgment and expertise

02:44:04 professional judgment and expertise which is used in creating these scenarios

02:44:08 scenarios and then making a judgment about which one is the reasonable worst case and does worst case encompass um the nature of the of the

02:44:20 um the nature of the of the risk

02:44:23 but does it also encompass scale of outcome yes it relates to the the impacts of the risk should it occur right but in addressing the

02:44:34 right but in addressing the reasonableness of the worst case scenario are those impacts focused on kinds of impacts categories of outcomes if you like or are they focused on the scale

02:44:46 or are they focused on the scale of outcomes in each category identified as as reasonable both both then

02:44:54 then i think you say well mclaughlin says if we can just pick this up at page 10 in his statement please paragraph 36

02:45:06 assessment this is under the heading assessments of fire risk prior to grenfell tower fire the 2016 nra did include a significant fire as one of its risk types but the specific scenario

02:45:17 its risk types but the specific scenario considered to be the reasonable worst case fire was a rural wildfire rather than an urban or tower block fire is that correct that's correct yes and

02:45:28 is that correct that's correct yes and uh he

02:45:29 uh he um says

02:45:30 um says um that is not to say that an urban fire was not considered as part of the process of preparing the nra but rather that such a fire was not considered to be the reasonable worst case scenario

02:45:42 be the reasonable worst case scenario and then over the page the assessment if we go over the page the assessment of the relevant department home office was that a wildfire was the risk that was likely to lead to the most severe consequences

02:45:54 severe consequences based on the information available at that time the assessment was that an urban fire was unlikely to lead to the level of casualties and fatalities that sadly resulted from the grenfell tower fire

02:46:06 fire now it's right to think isn't it that there was no mention of an urban or tower block fire within the 2016 nra there was there was no distinct risk labelled as an uh a tower block fire but

02:46:18 labelled as an uh a tower block fire but some of the consequences of such a fire were captured in the scenarios of other risks

02:46:25 risks some of the consequences all of all of the consequences actually i think

02:46:33 did the home office as the owner of the risk at the time or the ccs perform any actual analysis of an urban or tower block fire to lead it

02:46:43 it or

02:46:44 or or you perhaps to consider that such a fire was not a reasonable worst case scenario

02:46:50 scenario and i'm afraid i can't give you evidence on the analysis performed by the home office at the time um

02:46:58 um i don't think we have been able to find specific evidence of that in the ccs files to my recollection yes i mean my question was whether it was considered and discounted or whether it wasn't considered at all can you help

02:47:10 it wasn't considered at all can you help i would have to go away and look again at the paperwork it's not to my recollection

02:47:18 can you not have one or more than one kind of fire which would meet the reasonable worst case scenario that is possible but there is um

02:47:29 but there is um a strong incentive to make the nra a usable document so as mr mclaughlin's statement says that there are between 70 and 100 risks already

02:47:41 already um on the risk assessment so there's always a consideration where if the impacts of a risk are already captured in other scenarios we would try

02:47:53 captured in other scenarios we would try to keep the overall set number of scenarios at a manageable level for local responders right so if somebody maybe you maybe not you perhaps you can help was asked well

02:48:06 you perhaps you can help was asked well where do i find a risk assessment which covers the outcomes of a an urban fire or a tower block fire a tall

02:48:17 fire or a tower block fire a tall residential building in a densely populated

02:48:21 populated area the urban area where do i find it is it right that the people who compile the nra would not point to the wildfire risk but would point to another

02:48:32 wildfire risk but would point to another kind of risk and say

02:48:35 and say the outcomes are all captured there is that how it worked so so

02:48:39 so with the benefit of hindsight when we did add a tower block risk to the fire to the nra forgive me it did not move the planning assumptions that it generated because we found that

02:48:51 that it generated because we found that the impact of that fire had already been captured

02:48:56 captured so if you are if you're a local responder perhaps thinking about your own um planning needs and use the planning assumptions in the nra

02:49:08 in the nra you would have covered those impacts in relation to a specific description of a tower block fire that may have appeared on local risk registers um

02:49:20 risk registers um across the country but it didn't appear in the nra um we'll come to look at this in intercourse but in light of that answer would there be a problem in ownership of

02:49:32 would there be a problem in ownership of the risk by which i mean this if the outcomes of the grenfell tower fire would not be found under any fire related risk but found under a different kind of risk for which

02:49:44 kind of risk for which another government department had responsibility

02:49:49 then who would own the which government department would own the risk or no it knew it owned the risk so the

02:49:56 so the the home office would continue to own the assessment of the risk for most risks in the nra they responding to them engages capabilities for which responsibility is spread

02:50:08 for which responsibility is spread across a number of departments so the ownership of the overall risk would not affect the deployment of the capabilities needed let me see if i can understand that supposing and it may not

02:50:19 understand that supposing and it may not be the case that when those compiling the nra considered that all the risks making up the reasonable worst case uh scenario the rwc reasonable worst

02:50:32 uh scenario the rwc reasonable worst case

02:50:34 case uh

02:50:35 uh what for an incident like grenfell tower will not be found in the wildfires section for obvious reasons but could be found

02:50:42 found under let's assume structural collapse of a tall building yep um the ownership of that risk would not rest with the home office would it it would rest with presumably dclg

02:50:53 would rest with presumably dclg um i i think that's correct but i'd have to check

02:50:57 to check but the capabilities you would deploy to deal with that you would nonetheless expect to be in place because of the existence of that risk right

02:51:06 right was there a system whereby each government department would know that when it owned a risk it might be looking at a a cause which didn't necessarily always fit

02:51:18 which didn't necessarily always fit within its ownership for example the dc lg might be might might have to deal

02:51:25 deal uh with a structural building collapse but the home office would also have to deal with the same reasonable worst case when considering a tower block fire so that the process of creating the risk assessment is a cross-government one led

02:51:36 assessment is a cross-government one led by ccs but with um all departments with relevant responsibilities involved and i think it is described in either my

02:51:47 and i think it is described in either my statement or mr mclaughly statement the layers of scrutiny and clearance that the risk assessment goes through so there is there should be good visibility of both the risks and their

02:51:59 visibility of both the risks and their consequences as set out in the planning assumptions let's um continue with mr mcglocker's statement please page four we go back to paragraph 14.

02:52:14 he says my team conducts a policy and assurance role in relation to the rwc's return from other department we ask awkward questions and critically challenge their assessments do you remember whether any concerns were

02:52:25 remember whether any concerns were raised by the ccs about the absence of a significant urban fire in the 2016 nra or the process of compiling it not to my knowledge

02:52:37 and i think you say if you go to your second

02:52:40 second statement page 18 paragraph 59

02:52:51 your second statement at cab 30 is 1479. page 18.

02:53:05 paragraph 59 as to whether there was any concerns on the part of ccs about the absence of a significant urban fire including a tower block fire in the 2016 nra i would again be surprised had issue

02:53:17 nra i would again be surprised had issue been taken with that as i've explained above most if not all of the outcomes that would arise in relation to such a risk have been generated by other rwcs and have been incorporated into the 2016

02:53:28 and have been incorporated into the 2016 nras as a result and our pas you think as a result the pas there is planning assumptions is it correct right that being so you go on the emission

02:53:41 that being so you go on the emission from the 2016 nra of an urban fire rwcs reasonable worst case scenario would not have given rise to any obvious gaps in the risk assessment and response framework in those circumstances there

02:53:52 framework in those circumstances there would have been no basis to take issue with the home office's assessment as to the need to include an urban fire risk in the nra and to the best of my knowledge ccs did not do so

02:54:03 now um do you know for a fact just circling back to the point whether actually the exercise had been done consciously that there was no need to include a an urban

02:54:15 there was no need to include a an urban fire or tower block fire as a specific risk because the outcomes which needed to be planned for had been catered for under other risks so i think in the

02:54:26 so i think in the the paragraph below the one you just referred to um it does say we've not been able to find evidence in the documents of that consideration taking place so i don't

02:54:38 consideration taking place so i don't think i can assist further than that unfortunately right but am i do i understand your evidence before from before but it would have been normal to do so it would be normal to consider that and discount it because it was covered by

02:54:50 discount it because it was covered by another another risk so

02:54:53 so yes it would and the way the the um process of compiling the risk assessment works is that often we would start with a much larger number of scenarios and they would be

02:55:04 they would be reduced to a core which formed the risk assessment so it would be it would be perfectly possible that that consideration took place we just don't have evidence for it

02:55:15 place we just don't have evidence for it i'm afraid can you help me with this i get the impression from what you've just been describing that actually what you're

02:55:22 you're concentrating on is outcomes rather than events is that fair what you should be concentrating on is outcomes rather than events i yes so

02:55:34 outcomes rather than events i yes so this is a very capability led approach which means the planning assumptions are a really crucial tool with the theory being if you plan to be ready to deal with all of the

02:55:45 ready to deal with all of the consequences set out in the planning assumptions in whatever configuration they appear and from whatever cause you should be in a good position to deal with them i mean

02:55:57 a good position to deal with them i mean i it strikes me that um the urban

02:56:01 the urban tower block fire the

02:56:04 the large building collapse and just to suggest another potential risk an aircraft crash into a tall building

02:56:13 building would all generate very similar outcomes effects if you like but the planning of the system seems to start with the event and then look at the outcomes rather than seeking to

02:56:25 the outcomes rather than seeking to stand back and say no what what are we likely to have to deal with for one or other or any unforeseen reason i think the system is intended to do both which is why we have both the risk

02:56:36 which is why we have both the risk assessment and the planning assumptions because

02:56:40 because um the nature of the risk obviously gives you some indications as to which

02:56:45 which [Music]

02:56:46 [Music] consequences may occur together um which obviously you would want to think about in planning a response all right thank you yes

02:56:57 yes now if we go to your second statement

02:57:04 please at page 19 let's look together at paragraph 63. you say there it's not feasible for the nra or any document to describe all possible risk

02:57:15 document to describe all possible risk scenarios

02:57:16 scenarios local responders are expected to adapt the assumptions made in the nra and nrpa to their local areas and particular context

02:57:24 context clearly a local resilience forum based in a rural area will be more likely to face a wildfire than one based in a city center

02:57:33 was it the case did you understand it to be the case that the omission of an urban fire reasonable worst case scenario in the 2016 nra affected the ability of category 1 and

02:57:45 affected the ability of category 1 and category 2 respondents to make a fully informed local risk assessment i i think the presence of the consequences in the planning assumptions should should have meant it did not have

02:57:57 should should have meant it did not have that effect but would that not mean or would they not require those responsible for contingency planning in local areas would have to operate on the same basis

02:58:09 would have to operate on the same basis as

02:58:10 as the ccs

02:58:11 the ccs namely that when looking at the risks which are events rather than outcomes they would have to understand that that there may be other events which covered the same outcomes

02:58:22 events which covered the same outcomes yes and i would expect in compiling local risk registers and have seen examples of this that a good degree of local judgment is applied

02:58:33 applied to

02:58:34 to what might be the most plausible manifestation in that particular geographic area so that expertise that judgment is important right

02:58:44 right well the expertise and judgment is important but what is it specifically that a local resilience forum responsible for compiling the local risk register apt

02:58:57 compiling the local risk register apt for its area would look at to know that they shouldn't simply look at the register and work from that but actually would need to look into the

02:59:09 but actually would need to look into the individual risks in the register and search for outcomes to make sure that they were covered well two things i think um firstly the planning assumptions which as i said are a really key part of this process

02:59:22 a really key part of this process and then secondly the the guidance referred to in here which sets out how to go about using a product which is national and making it of best utility for your local area

02:59:37 it of best utility for your local area now in your second statement again we can go back to page five please paragraph 14.

02:59:47 you say the latest version of the nra could be amended or updated if there was a justification for doing so a designated risk owner could propose a new risk or an amendment to an existing risk on the basis of new evidence

02:59:58 risk on the basis of new evidence emerging since the last nra review cycle new evidence could include one lessons from uk or international emergencies or exercises two new research analysis and

03:00:09 exercises two new research analysis and or data

03:00:11 or data three a change in circumstance which potentially affects the uk's vulnerability to the risk and attackers capability intent etc so i i i

03:00:22 so i i i is it right that uh well perhaps you can explain you i mean it's the case i think that even following the lack of house fire in july 2009 the shirley towers fire in

03:00:33 2009 the shirley towers fire in southampton in 2010 or the adair tower fire in october 2015 within rbkc itself um

03:00:42 um no consideration was given centrally by the ccs to whether an urban tower block fire should be included in the nra

03:00:51 the nra it's correct that one was not added to the nra

03:00:54 the nra i think as um i alluded to before i'm afraid we we couldn't find evidence of of consideration of it so i can't be definitive to say that that consideration didn't happen

03:01:08 right but but if

03:01:11 if on the assumption that no consideration was given to the inclusion of an urban tower block fire after those events which would lead to lessons from the uk new research analysis or data can you

03:01:24 new research analysis or data can you explain why no consideration was given to including an urban tower block fire as a specific risk i i think in the in the absence of evidence of consideration or otherwise i

03:01:35 evidence of consideration or otherwise i i can't really assist on that point that discussion may have taken place but we just could not find evidence for it no well is it not likely that if there'd been a serious consideration of it there

03:01:47 been a serious consideration of it there would be some evidence of it um i think it depends what form that consideration took it could have been a lengthy conversation or it could have been

03:01:59 or it could have been on paper i'm afraid i'm in some difficulty at diagnosing things i don't have evidence for well what i'm suggesting was that the absence of evidence might lead to an inference

03:02:12 an inference i i think

03:02:13 i i think one might infer that but i can't be definitive i'm afraid all right thank you

03:02:22 um mr chairman it's just gone one o'clock i've got i've got two main questions to cover before i get to a new section well go on there just a minute um well may i i mean it's yes we've only been going yes um can we stick with the second

03:02:35 yes um can we stick with the second statement please and go to page 18 next and the paragraph 61 you say in the foot of the screen it is important to acknowledge that the impacts described in the wildfire rwcs were at a level

03:02:47 in the wildfire rwcs were at a level broadly equivalent to almost more severe than the impacts experienced in the lack of house fire and were therefore appropriate for contingency planning and capability building purposes was that a view do you know consciously

03:02:59 was that a view do you know consciously adopted by the

03:03:03 the the home office at the time and the ccs at the time that the 2016 nra was compiled

03:03:11 so i i think again this is this is i'm in the same difficulty as with your last question that i don't have evidence of that consideration or that view being taken right so

03:03:22 right so this is your opinion about appropriateness rather than your statement that it was considered appropriate this is an analysis of um the document and the impact as they

03:03:35 the document and the impact as they stood so it's certainly a plausible rationale but i'm afraid i don't have the documents which describe it now in terms of outcomes whether it's

03:03:47 outcomes whether it's a tower block fire or whether it's a

03:03:50 a building collapse structural collapse or whether it's an an aircraft flying into a tall building different risks do you know whether anybody ever performed a comparison of the

03:04:01 performed a comparison of the differences in the types of community that displaced by these different incidents

03:04:09 incidents i i think it's unlikely we would have done that at a national level it's the sort of consideration i would expect to happen

03:04:16 happen in relation to local risk assessment now it's right to think and correct me if i'm wrong about this uh miss hammond but robert mcfarlane was another deputy director under your leadership at the

03:04:27 director under your leadership at the time of the fire correct yes and he was responsible was he for uk resilience training doctrine and standards within the ccs correct let's look at his statement

03:04:37 statement um please it's at cab3014794 page 10.

03:04:44 page 10. i just want to look at paragraph 35 with you and he says my team also works in partnership with the jezib team on joint organizational learning or jol this is a system for recording and disseminating

03:04:55 system for recording and disseminating lessons learned the core part of the project is an online database jl online which acts as a single repository for the capture and collation of multi-agency lessons arising from incident training testing and other

03:05:07 incident training testing and other external resource and sources inputs into the system are obtained from a variety of sources including reports from responder agencies recommendations from public inquiries prevention of

03:05:18 from public inquiries prevention of future death reports and health and safety executive recommendations and in his second statement which i don't think we need to go to he says

03:05:28 he says at the time of the grenfell tower fire no lessons learned from incidents such as the lack of house or treaded tower fires had been recorded on jol now can you explain why that would be the case

03:05:41 um

03:05:44 with some difficulty i think i mean my assumption would be that

03:05:51 that um

03:05:54 no lesson had been distilled and recorded

03:05:58 recorded on that system um by local responders that is not to say that those lessons hadn't been learned and disseminated through other means

03:06:10 through other means but um

03:06:12 but um i i it's difficult for me to explain otherwise i think why they had not chosen to do so and would you accept that the absence of previous incidents such as lack of law or ad air from the

03:06:23 such as lack of law or ad air from the jol system would suggest that urban fires as a risk category was simply not on ccs's radar at all

03:06:31 um i think it's evidence that they were not on the jol system obviously wider consideration of fire certainly did take place as part of the nra process i don't

03:06:42 place as part of the nra process i don't think i can say much further than that but but the absence from the jol system would not indicate that they had been not have been considered but consciously rejected as relevant material no i think that is

03:06:54 relevant material no i think that is only one of a very wide range of sources that

03:06:58 that would be used in the compilation of the risk assessment so its absence there is not definitive i think do you know whether

03:07:05 whether that incident lachenal and other later fires and the grenfell tower fire were added later to the jol system

03:07:12 system i don't i'm afraid but very happy to go and ask that question and come back to you

03:07:17 you mr chairman is that a convenient moment i think it is mr millet um we've slightly overrun but no matter we're gonna break now so we can all get some lunch with seven we'll resume these

03:07:28 some lunch with seven we'll resume these at five past two and i have to ask you as everybody else uh while you're out of the room please don't discuss your evidence or anything relating to it within of course all right thank you very much would you go with the usher please thank you

03:07:49 thank you five for two thank you