Grenfell Tower Inquiry - C S Stokes and Associates Ltd Evidence - Tuesday 1st June 2021 (1/3)
00:00:20 Good morning everyone. Welcome to today's hearing. Uh before we begin, there's something I need to say about the proceedings for the rest of this week. I'm sorry to say that a member of the council team has suffered a
00:00:33 the council team has suffered a bereavement and that's going to require some adjustment to our program for this week. What we intend to do is to complete taking Mr. Stokes's evidence today. We
00:00:45 taking Mr. Stokes's evidence today. We expect to finish that within the course of the day. Uh we shall then not sit tomorrow or Thursday, but we shall begin Janice Ray's evidence on Monday of next
00:00:57 Janice Ray's evidence on Monday of next week and uh Mr. Canoir is going to take over for the remainder of Mr. Stakes evidence this morning. Is that right, Mr. Caner? That's right, sir. Thank you. Good. Thank you very much. So, would you ask Mr. mistakes to come back in,
00:01:08 ask Mr. mistakes to come back in, please.
00:01:24 Good morning, Mr. Stakes. Good morning, sir. Uh, you ready to carry on? Now, you'll see facing you across the room not Mr. Millet this morning, but uh Mr. Caner and he's going to ask you uh some
00:01:35 and he's going to ask you uh some questions today. All right. Good. Thank you very much. When you're ready, Mr. Kir. Thanks, sir. Good morning, Mr. Stokes. Um before we turn to questions about the AOV, could I ask you one further question respect of leaseholder doors?
00:01:47 question respect of leaseholder doors? Now, paragraph 28 of her first witness statement. Janice Ray uh says that you would have been asked to look at an individual lease holders door on request. Um were you ever asked by the
00:01:58 request. Um were you ever asked by the TMO to inspect a leaseolder's door? Um that would have been for the TMO. Sorry. Um as an individual going to look
00:02:10 Sorry. Um as an individual going to look at them.
00:02:11 at them. Yes.
00:02:11 Yes. For the lease holders. Yes. Yes.
00:02:14 Yes. That was correct. So yes. Uh were you ever asked by a lease holder directly to inspect uh their doors? It doesn't spring to mind. I would only ever come through uh the TMO. The GMO
00:02:26 ever come through uh the TMO. The GMO did put a letter out to say that if a lease holder wanted to um contact, I could look at them and then write a report.
00:02:36 report. And did anyone follow up on that invitation? Yes, I think yes, they did, but it was done via the TMO through their letters. Uh now, may I turn to uh the operation
00:02:48 Uh now, may I turn to uh the operation and functionality of the AOV at Grenell Tower? Now, in your fire risk assessments at section 17, you typically recorded your observations about the AOV. And if we could turn first of all
00:03:00 AOV. And if we could turn first of all to the 2012 FRA as an example, which can be found at CST quadruple03084
00:03:10 slash23.
00:03:17 Now you'll see there's section 17 below the midway point on that page um under the heading means of giving warning in case of fire and you'll see there's a box beneath the uh questions giving
00:03:31 box beneath the uh questions giving opportunity for further comments or observations to be made and you say there this there is an automatic smoke detector located in each flat lift lobby area on every residential floor level of this building and a full fire alarm and
00:03:43 this building and a full fire alarm and warning system installed in the office areas of the building. And if we could turn two pages further to page 25 and section 19, uh we see there another
00:03:54 section 19, uh we see there another comment box. And if we can look at the second paragraph from the bottom of that box, it says this, and I quote, "There is an automatic opening ventilation system located on each lift lobby
00:04:05 system located on each lift lobby landing area. The vents are opened on the activation of the fire alarm detector for that floor level. There is a manual override facility located in the main entrance lobby. Please see the
00:04:16 the main entrance lobby. Please see the section 17 above means of giving a warning in case of fire for more information of the lift flat lobby area detectors. Now did you ever test or witness the testing of the system uh for
00:04:29 witness the testing of the system uh for prep for the purposes of preparing your FRA of Grenful Tower? No.
00:04:35 No. In those circumstances, how could you reliably verify that the system was functioning correctly? uh looked at the contractor's service sheets and I made certain that I had one
00:04:47 sheets and I made certain that I had one that would be in date. Did you ever ask Janice Ray if there were any issues affecting the operation of the system before you started the preparatory work for your FRAAS?
00:04:59 preparatory work for your FRAAS? I think if I did it would have been covered at the beginning. Um but I would I would rely on the each because obviously this was ongoing. So I
00:05:10 because obviously this was ongoing. So I would rely on the service this service sheet from the engineer who serviced the system and the company that was responsible for maintaining it to get me accurate up to-ate information.
00:05:21 accurate up to-ate information. So you relied upon the provision of information from others rather than actively interrogating Miss Ray as to whether there are any issues with the OV.
00:05:30 OV. Yes. And I'm going to say because Miss Ray would have only have gone to the same place I would have gone to get that information. And when you said in answer to an earlier question um you would have asked that question at the beginning. Do
00:05:42 asked that question at the beginning. Do you by those words do you mean when you first started work for the TMO? Yes sir.
00:05:48 Yes sir. Now um can I uh now turn to uh the question of the April 2010 fire and the operation of the AOV. And for that purpose, could I turn to your December 2010 FRA, which can be found at CST
00:06:01 2010 FRA, which can be found at CST quadrupal03181
00:06:05 SL18.
00:06:10 And here again, we have section 17, means of giving warning in case of a fire. And you say in the top of that text box, there is an automatic smoke detector located in each lift lobby area
00:06:21 detector located in each lift lobby area on every floor level of the residential part of the building and a full fire alarm and warning system installed in the office areas of the building. And then again, if we can go forward one page to page 19 and section 19. The last
00:06:35 page to page 19 and section 19. The last paragraph in the comment box says this. There is an automatic opening ventilation system located on each lift lobby landing area. The vents are opened on the activation of the fire alarm
00:06:46 on the activation of the fire alarm detector for that floor level. There is a manual override facility located in the main entrance lobby. And just for further context, if we go to page five in this document
00:06:59 and you see there in the last paragraph on that page,
00:07:07 as far as it's known, having asked the person named 12, apart from the arson incident in July of this year, 2010,
00:07:15 there have been no other fires in this building within the last two years. Now, did you ask for more detail from Janice Ray about the uh so-called arson incident in July of 2010?
00:07:27 incident in July of 2010? I had some information. Yes. It was uh bags of rubbish outside a flat door. Now, were you aware that the incident in fact took place in April 2010?
00:07:39 fact took place in April 2010? No. No. And were you aware that there hadd been a spillage leakage of smoke from the extraction system on the lobbies of floors 7, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18,
00:07:53 lobbies of floors 7, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20, which had led a number of residents to believe that the lift lobby was smoke logged and they were trapped in their homes? No.
00:08:01 No. Was that the type of information you would have expected Miss Ray to have given you? Yes. I would also expect it to be in the service reports that I was looking at. Uh if I could ask you now to turn to IWS
00:08:15 Uh if I could ask you now to turn to IWS quadruple 01463.
00:08:22 Now this is the LFB's uh report in relation to that fire date of the 22nd of December 2010. And if you turn to page five
00:08:34 and you'll see there
00:08:39 two questions up from the bottom. Number of persons injured three. Were you aware of that?
00:08:44 of that? No.
00:08:45 No. Again, is that the type of information you would be dependent upon Miss Ray to provide you with? Yes.
00:08:51 Yes. Could
00:08:52 Could I now turn to a separate document which is a report prepared by RG and dated May 2010.
00:09:00 2010. Now before you completed your FRA in December 2010, were you aware of a maintenance report prepared by RGE in relation to the AOV system at Grenful? So what was the date please?
00:09:12 So what was the date please? Uh the date of the report was the 12th of May 2010. And if I take you to it, RBK
00:09:19 RBK trip013637.
00:09:30 I recognize it's 11 years ago now, but do you recall seeing that report at the time?
00:09:36 time? I can't remember seeing it now. Do you have any memory of RGE raising any concerns regarding the inlet dampers of the AOV?
00:09:47 of the AOV? No. The the report that if I remember correctly was for the 2014 FRA there was
00:09:58 there was I think it was a relay on one floor that was the only defect that was noted in their report. Now let's look at this even though um you don't remember it. Let's turn to
00:10:09 you don't remember it. Let's turn to page seven within it.
00:10:14 And you'll see here comments and recommendations. And you see there the third paragraph on that page says this. Due to the spring force on the inlet dampers, the actuators are not reliable
00:10:25 dampers, the actuators are not reliable and may not operate on every active sorry activation. The outlet damper have very little force and are reliable. Apart from the above and its age, the
00:10:36 Apart from the above and its age, the system is generally in good operational order and is capable of being maintained for the next 5 years apart from the inlet dampers. Now, having taken you through that, do you still have no
00:10:47 through that, do you still have no recollection of this report or its conclusions? No, because if I had seen this, I would have put something in the significant findings. Has the work been undertaken? And again, is this the type of information that you would have been
00:10:58 information that you would have been reliant upon, Miss Ray, to provide you with when preparing your FRA or the TMO in general? Yes.
00:11:06 And if you had been aware of it, you would have included it in your FRA. Is that a fair assumption? Yes. The same as I would have done the relay
00:11:14 relay that was in the later one. Well, we'll come on to the later workings of the AOV. Now putting that document to one side, could I um ask us to turn to the Salvis 2009 FRA and that
00:11:27 to turn to the Salvis 2009 FRA and that was the FRA you completed whilst working with Salvis and that was dated the 30th of September 2009. That could be found at CST quadruple03128.
00:11:40 And if we go to page 14 within that document and paragraph 9.2 two.
00:11:47 Now you see there if you look at the uh far left the fire hazard identified as smoke ventilation system installed in the building. And if you could read across to the middle column [snorts] uh
00:11:59 across to the middle column [snorts] uh it says this and I quote, "A manually operated smoke ventilation system has been installed in the building. The vents for the system are on the lift lobby areas at each floor level. The control panel for the system is located
00:12:10 control panel for the system is located in the reception area with the equipment installed in the roof plan room, roof plant room, I should say. It could not be confirmed at the time of fire risk assessment if the smoke ventilation
00:12:21 assessment if the smoke ventilation system had been subject to maintenance and testing in line with current guidance and British standards. The receptionist could not explain fully the policy or procedure for when or how to operate the system. And you'll see uh
00:12:34 operate the system. And you'll see uh under the risk category with controls it's said to be medium high and further action is required. Now bearing in mind what is said there, could we now turn on to the 2010 FRA
00:12:46 could we now turn on to the 2010 FRA that you completed in respect to Grenful and in particular the significant finding schedule that can be found at CST quadruple 03083
00:12:56 slash5.
00:13:05 Now, if we go to the uh box at the very bottom of that page, item 23C,
00:13:13 you wrote in respect of the AOV, and I quote, "There are automatic opening vents on each flat lift lobby area. It is not known if this system is serviced and maintained, and you asked in the
00:13:24 and maintained, and you asked in the next box to the right for confirmation of the servicing and maintenance routine."
00:13:29 routine." Now, my first question is is this. Did you at the time can you remember did you ask for records in respect of servicing and maintenance as the followup to this document I would
00:13:40 as the followup to this document I would have asked for it for the next time and I went yes uh but for the purposes of this FRA did you ask for the documents relating to the service and maintenance regime of the AOV
00:13:50 the AOV this is me asking for it now but yeah my question is did you ask beforehand and didn't receive it I can't say I asked beforehand but this is my confirmation that I hadn't got any
00:14:01 is my confirmation that I hadn't got any documentation at that time. Uh when completing this schedule, did you compare and contrast uh the situation with the 2009 schedule uh where the problem had been identified
00:14:13 where the problem had been identified previously that no one was able to explain how it was worked or the maintenance regime? It it would been in the 10 one uh before this, wouldn't it, sir? No, 2009. It's the one I took you to the
00:14:24 No, 2009. It's the one I took you to the Salvis 2009 one. I can take you back to it, Mr. Stokes, if that helps. But had I not done another risk assessment in 2010? Well, you did your December 2010.
00:14:35 Well, you did your December 2010. So, I would have asked then for the is there a does it does it know how it works then? And now this one I would have asked for
00:14:46 And now this one I would have asked for confirmation on servicing because I still haven't got that. Put differently, did you check the Salv 2009 FRA before you carried out the work for the December two uh 2010 FRA? it.
00:14:58 for the December two uh 2010 FRA? it. Yes, I would always check. Would did you Well, it was just what I did. Yes, sir. Okay. And wouldn't it have been obvious if you'd done that that you'd have seen
00:15:10 if you'd done that that you'd have seen that uh you'd said in 2009 that it could not be confirmed at the time the fire risk assessment of the smoke ventilation system had been subject to maintenance and testing in line with current guidance.
00:15:21 guidance. But I would have been given that assurance. it had have been by being provided with a service sheet. Uh but it's clear in 2010 looking at 22 23C at the bottom of this page that you
00:15:33 23C at the bottom of this page that you were still seeking for confirmation of the service and maintenance records, weren't you? But that the service and maintenance is undertaken on an annual basis.
00:15:45 I cannot answer the question definitively but if I didn't have I could have had the 2011 and it now to date I am now asking for an inate one at this point can it be
00:15:57 an inate one at this point can it be confirmed right if we can now turn to the um following this point through and bearing in mind there that you were seeking for confirmation of service and maintenance records let's turn to the
00:16:09 maintenance records let's turn to the 2012 FRA and that is dated the 30th of December 2012 it can be found at cs ST quadruple03083
00:16:20 slash5
00:16:24 and again looking at the bottom of the page Mr. Stokes. Again, item 23 C deals with the AOV and then we look in the middle column.
00:16:37 Sorry, if we look in the far left hand column, it says there are automatic opening vents on each FAT lift lobby area. It is not known if this system is serviced and maintained. And then looking at actions to be taken, again,
00:16:48 looking at actions to be taken, again, the same formula that you'd use back in 2010. Can it be confirmed that the automatic opening vents on each flat lift lobby area are serviced and maintained in accordance to the manufacturer's instructions? Now, can
00:17:01 manufacturer's instructions? Now, can you remember when you prepared this FRA December 2012 that you recognize that you are seeking exactly the same action you'd sought in 2010 and indeed 2009?
00:17:15 Sorry. Um, this is the same document as we've just it didn't change at the top. I don't think this is the 12. It is a different document. Okay, sir.
00:17:26 Okay, sir. Yes, I'm still asking for the same information. But my question is, did you not recognize at the time
00:17:35 that you were in fact asking for the same confirmation you'd asked for in 2010 and indeed in 2009? Probably. Yes, sir. But not sufficient to actually say anything here.
00:17:46 anything here. I'm asking the question. Um I'm I can only do look at it at this stage. I can only look for what or write down what I haven't seen. Doing the best.
00:17:57 what I haven't seen. Doing the best. Sorry. Can I just tell I I think the point you're being asked to comment on Mr. Stakes is this in 2009 and 2010 and now it looked it appears
00:18:08 and 2010 and now it looked it appears 2012.
00:18:10 2012. You don't appear to have had maintenance records which would demonstrate that the lift had sorry that the opening vents had been serviced and maintained in
00:18:22 had been serviced and maintained in accordance with instructions because on each occasion you're asking someone else to confirm that that's happened. Correct, sir. And the question I think that you're being asked to comment on is
00:18:33 that you're being asked to comment on is did you realize each time that the situation had not been remedied and that you still hadn't gotten the maintenance records?
00:18:42 records? Yes, sir. I did because that's why I'm writing it down again. And then I think the question that follows from that is what did you do about it?
00:18:49 about it? At
00:18:49 At this particular point, sir, I had no access to their maintenance records. I literally had to ask each time I went to the building, can I have maintenance records? Later on, I was given some
00:19:03 records? Later on, I was given some access to their online system. But at this point, it was literally asking after I'd been to the uh a building, can
00:19:14 after I'd been to the uh a building, can I now have those maintenance records? I would ask if I didn't receive the maintenance records, I would write that statement in. I haven't seen them. That's my observation.
00:19:25 That's my observation. All right. Thank you. Thanks, sir. Following on from that, um would you have put or why didn't you put in say for example the 2012 FRA that you'd been asking for this information
00:19:37 you'd been asking for this information consistently and it had not been provided
00:19:42 because it's in the documents every time. Is it I suppose my point is you've been asking now this is the third FRA where you've asked the same thing. Uh why didn't you
00:19:53 asked the same thing. Uh why didn't you say this is the third time I've asked for that and I'm still not getting it. This is important. I need it. It would be covered. We had meetings and sometimes when the same item was coming up time and again, it would be covered
00:20:05 up time and again, it would be covered in our meetings with Miss Ray and these sort of things um were there as an agenda item. Now, can I um turn to the FRA itself for
00:20:18 Now, can I um turn to the FRA itself for 2012 and the section on testing and maintenance and that can be found at CST quadruple 03084 slash28.
00:20:32 And you'll see the fifth question down from the top is this. Um, is there a monthly testing and annual servicing and maintenance of any automatic opening vents along with any associated
00:20:43 vents along with any associated equipment devices with records kept? You've tick no. Um, if we zoom out
00:20:52 zoom out of that page, we can see that there's no uh comment thereafter in the comment box at the bottom. Wouldn't that have been a useful place in which to record that you'd been
00:21:04 in which to record that you'd been asking for these records over the course of 3 years and they still hadn't been provided so as to flag up the issue explicitly with the TMO. This is the snapshot at the time. I
00:21:18 This is the snapshot at the time. I don't have these records here and now. Um, it would have been covered by an agenda item as an item that was ongoing if you want to call it like that where
00:21:29 if you want to call it like that where we had issu if it was an ongoing issue uh of whatever I'm trying to think of an example.
00:21:37 example. Um, fire extinguishers was an example where the
00:21:44 where the service maintenance company was writing condemned on them. I was commenting more than once and then it was raised as an item as an agenda item with myself and Mrs. Ray at the time.
00:21:55 Mrs. Ray at the time. Okay. You said that you were given access eventually to the service maintenance records. Can you remember when you were given access? specifically. No, but it took a long time even once they agreed to have
00:22:08 time even once they agreed to have access for me to then get access to that system. And [snorts] then I was only reliant on how good the person who had inputed that information onto the system.
00:22:19 system. Now, were you told in February 2013 or thereabouts? Um, I'm very sorry to interrupt you. I've got a message saying that the transcript may not be working for those
00:22:30 transcript may not be working for those who are not present in the room. Um
00:22:34 Um yes sir I'm in your hands as to whether you want to rise for a few moments see whether it could be rectified or whether wellow I think it's very unsatisfactory for those who are not actually present
00:22:45 for those who are not actually present uh to follow it without the transcript. So I think we probably should just um rise for a short time. I hope it won't be a lengthy interruption. Mr. Stokes
00:22:56 be a lengthy interruption. Mr. Stokes you follow what I was saying. We there's a real time transcript going on for the benefit of not just the panel but others as well and it seems that there may be a problem with it. So we're going to break
00:23:07 problem with it. So we're going to break for a shorter time as we can manage. Sir.
00:23:10 Sir. All right. Um so would you like to give the usher please? Thank you.
00:23:23 Mr. Cle, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Um, best thing is you you ask the usher to come and find us when things have been sorted out. We'll do so. Thanks so much.