Carl Stokes of CS Stokes and Associates concludes his evidence on fire risk assessments, discussing FRA action backlogs, fire safety information dissemination to residents, and TMO concerns about the validity of FRA recommendations.
00:00:21 would you ask mr stokes to come back in
00:00:28 please
00:00:37 yes right mr stokes ready to carry on sir
00:00:41 sir thank you very much yes mr kennedy thanks sir mr stokes can we now turn to a separate topic which is fire safety information given to residents now if i could take you first of all to an email chain of the 14th of april 2016
00:00:54 an email chain of the 14th of april 2016 and that can be found at six five tm008657
00:00:58 tm008657 eight zero and pages and page two
00:01:08 and we see the very bottom of page two an email
00:01:11 an email from barbara matthews to janice ray fire safety information if we can go to the top of page three it says janus please could you provide a list of where the information is held
00:01:22 list of where the information is held that's fire safety information and how we provide it to residents existing and new and how often we do reminders
00:01:30 reminders and if we could uh go to the bottom of page one of this chain
00:01:35 you'll see janice ray's response starts there
00:01:39 there 14th of april if we turn to the top of page two
00:01:45 you see the penultimate line of the email carl also often posts copies of the lfp leaflet through doors first of all is that something you did post leaflets through doors yes do you know what particular leaflet
00:01:59 yes do you know what particular leaflet janice ray is referring to here um i can't remember the title it is two pages of a4 and on one side it looks like a lego
00:02:11 and on one side it looks like a lego block of flats and it was the fire services lfb's leaflet from their website so home fire safety guide for homeowners does that sound familiar without seeing it well let's have a look
00:02:22 without seeing it well let's have a look cst trouble 0-16719
00:02:35 that's not it if i could ask cst treble017272
00:02:59 yes that this should be a second page i believe
00:03:09 but does that look familiar yes it does who'd give those leaflets to you i think that was copied down off their website
00:03:16 website initially who copied who downloaded it from the website was it you or janice ray
00:03:22 ray um i'm gonna i i'm gonna say myself they were initially were printed copies and i believe we they couldn't get any more from the lfb so it was downloaded off the website
00:03:33 lfb so it was downloaded off the website and you did that at the request of janice ray is that right the posting of these leaflets was it something you spontaneously did i think it was something that they when they ran out of the leaflets it was a case of
00:03:44 it was a case of it was photocopied and put through the doors but did you put the leaflets through doors at the request of janice ray
00:03:51 ray i can't say whether it was requested january or it happened how often would you do that i can't say every time mostly it was for
00:04:04 i can't say every time mostly it was for the smaller premises rather than the bigger blocks because in the bigger blocks they're caretakers at one point um i can an example would be at the world's end complex
00:04:16 complex on the desk there the concierge they had boxes provided by the lfb and people could just pick them up so it was the smaller ones predominantly where i would drop them through can you remember whether you
00:04:27 through can you remember whether you posted these in uh in flats at grenfell i would say no because there was a dedicated caretaker and it was part of the
00:04:36 the lancaster west estate so the caretakers would have done it all the psas would have done it what other steps would you take to disseminate fire safety information to residents
00:04:45 residents personally yes none just this yes now can i turn to a separate topic which is your involvement and knowledge of the fra backlog on significant actions um now were you
00:04:58 on significant actions um now were you made aware by janice ray or anyone else that
00:05:00 that fra actions were challenging to resolve i knew that there some were yes when were you first made aware of that i can't give a specific date um i can't
00:05:13 i can't give a specific date um i can't no sorry
00:05:14 no sorry can you remember for example that there was this there was a problem regarding a backlog
00:05:19 backlog as early as january 2012 does that ring any bells with you there was a i'm going to say it was a com
00:05:28 com a software changeover and it started then so it would have been
00:05:34 been a long time ago and did janice ray ever seek practical advice from you as to how best to
00:05:40 best to resolve fra significant action backlogs as quickly as possible no
00:05:48 were you ever asked to carry out a system-wide review or audit of the tmos fire risk management system no do you recall a meeting with michael lyons a health and safety manager of repairs direct
00:05:59 repairs direct in january 2014 once he had started at repairsdirect to bring him up to speed with your fire risk assessment program it's not something that jumps to mind but we there were some meetings where
00:06:13 but we there were some meetings where repairs direct people were involved and on the agenda items at some point if we had an item that was consistently being brought up we would discuss it now let's see if i
00:06:24 we would discuss it now let's see if i can help your memory there you can go to cst
00:06:27 cst triple zero two one six seven five
00:06:38 now there you go that's an email from janice ray to you organizing a meeting
00:06:46 okay don't ring any bells no
00:06:52 can you remember anything specific that was discussed at that meeting no not without seeing any minutes no can you remember at any stage having any
00:07:03 can you remember at any stage having any discussion involving you janice ray michael lyons about how best to clear the backlog of fra actions
00:07:13 again without me minutes no sorry were you aware of even in broad terms the volume of back of the backlog at any particular time
00:07:23 time not uh i knew there was a backlog and i could see sometimes when i went ask for the w-2 sheet they would still be out and
00:07:34 w-2 sheet they would still be out and outstanding so i knew there was but not how big the backlog was now so when you were preparing your fras of grenfell can you help us what
00:07:46 fras of grenfell can you help us what particular information would you have about the scale of the backlog of significant actions well i would ask for the
00:07:54 for the previous fra
00:07:57 the ww2 um a printout print out and that would be about it
00:08:04 about it and then i would work on what was on that piece of paper in front of me did you ever have cause to emphasize to janice ray or indeed anyone else at the tmo
00:08:12 tmo the importance of closing out outstanding significant fra actions i think that was had more than once that conversation with janice ray it would have been yes and yes the sales
00:08:24 it would have been yes and yes the sales their health and safety team and those conversations would have been outside the fourth square of the fire risk assessment itself we where we had a meeting or where i had to go into the office yes
00:08:36 to go into the office yes what was the the gist of the views you express about the importance of closing out such actions can you help the panel i i i can only um it would be along the
00:08:48 i can only um it would be along the lines that work has to be undertaken if it's highlighted it has to be undertaken could follow could i um ask you to turn to an email of 13th of november november 2015 and that's at cst quadruple zero double
00:09:01 and that's at cst quadruple zero double two
00:09:02 two one two and there's an email as i said from alex bosman to you hi carl i've been working through completing a number of fra actions and i've identified a number of queries
00:09:14 identified a number of queries please could you review the attach and provide a response against each action now pausing there in the text which we'll come back to he attached a spreadsheet and we can find that at
00:09:25 that at cst quadruple zero double two one three
00:09:56 thank you and we can see um column a set out various uh properties and it's got
00:10:07 uh properties and it's got in column k fra action reading from left to right
00:10:13 to right and then it may be useful if we look at row nine so scroll down slightly to penbridge square
00:10:23 thank you there we go
00:10:26 and just reading across that we can see that the fra was complete on the 28th of february 2014. we read along to column h that it was a
00:10:38 we read along to column h that it was a high priority the action itself was external steps up to the building engine store is slightly damaged
00:10:45 damaged and then column q reading all the way across
00:10:50 across we've got pass to rd awaiting update and then in the very final column column s
00:10:58 s we see the question please justify the fire risk and why this has been listed as high risk
00:11:07 would you ever be given an explanation say looking at the pembroke square example of why an fra significant action had been outstanding for 20 months now this is
00:11:18 20 months now this is serious unusual to get something like this now did you discuss the content of this spreadsheet with alex bosman that you can remember
00:11:30 i don't know if i went back to alice bosman or went to janus valley with this and did you discuss the the apparently slow rate
00:11:39 slow rate of closing off significant actions with janus on the basis of this spreadsheet and the information in it i can't say for definite i went and said why haven't these been closed out but as you can see there
00:11:51 you can see there they're asking the question why are the steps of a building a fire risk well it's the means of escape coming out so that's the question i would have that's something i wanted to ask you
00:12:02 that's something i wanted to ask you next you're seeing column s it's a repeated question for you to justify the fire risk was that something that alex bosman or indeed anyone else at the tmo persisted in asking you i think this is
00:12:15 persisted in asking you i think this is again i can't remember for definite but this was i think the first or only i think this is the first time this happened i can't remember for definite i had been asked questions previously
00:12:27 i had been asked questions previously why do you consider this a fire risk that the one that you've highlighted at pembroke square is because it's on the means of escape you out of the building therefore is a risk now you say this
00:12:39 therefore is a risk now you say this hadn't been that question had not been raised with you in the past was it a question that was asked
00:12:44 was asked thereafter so from november 2015 onwards i cannot remember now if we could go back
00:12:51 back to the emails or are interrupted by taking a spreadsheet
00:12:57 thank you and turning to the second paragraph of that email alex bosman said this i am keen to reduce the number of actions we receive and ensure that those that are raised are proportionate to the risk
00:13:08 are proportionate to the risk that is present on site at the time i understand that you may wish to highlight concerns in addition to formal fra actions however it would be helpful to raise these outside of the fra process to ensure the process is manageable did
00:13:20 to ensure the process is manageable did you discuss that uh request with him i think i discussed this with janice ray and said these are in the fras because they are to do with fire
00:13:31 to do with fire did alex bosman or indeed janice ray invite you to change your practice in terms of identification of the risk or the classification of priority of the action that was required
00:13:42 action that was required i can't remember specifically that being asked but i wouldn't have done anyway you wouldn't have changed your practice these are here because like i said but the steps at pem bridge it's on the means of escape
00:13:55 bridge it's on the means of escape routes so therefore it's to do with fire i was asked questions a lot like why do you need why is the carpet damaged on the staircase a fire risk or because someone could trip down the threads as they
00:14:06 threads as they fell down the stairs as they went down the stairs now you responded three days later on the 16th of november 2015 and if i could take you first of all to the e covering email which is at cst
00:14:17 the e covering email which is at cst quadruple zero two four eight two
00:14:24 i show you this just to sort of remind you mr stokes yes
00:14:51 there you go halfway down the page janice with my comments added would you like to read first before i fall down to alex then if i could take you to the spreadsheet on which you put your comments which is at cst
00:15:02 put your comments which is at cst quadruple zero two four eight three
00:15:17 that's probably quite useful so if we go to row nine that dealt with pembridge square
00:15:24 this
00:15:28 and then it's just to flesh out the answer you gave the comments at column t effectively replicate what you've just told the panel would you accept that yes thank you now do you know if janet
00:15:39 yes thank you now do you know if janet ray read
00:15:41 ray read and took on board your comments to use that an elegant phrase i can't so you'd have to ask that question i can't remember can you remember whether she made any comments on your comments
00:15:54 comments on your comments i can't remember can you remember whether you forwarded uh your spreadsheet to alex bosman in the end
00:16:02 that's what the email said before i forward it on so i would have forwarded it on if janice would have i mean imagine janice would have come back to me and i would afford it on do you remember any subsequent conversation with alex bosman about
00:16:15 conversation with alex bosman about the substance of your comments on this spreadsheet no now apologies it's difficult trying to remember things more than a few years ago
00:16:26 things more than a few years ago but there seems to have been a meeting held sometime around the 20th of november 2015. and if we can go to it it's cst trouble zero
00:16:34 zero two six one zero six forward slash
00:16:48 three
00:16:52 okay back a page
00:17:01 now that seemed to be a meeting on the 20th of november just go on to the first page
00:17:18 go on to the first page apologies it doesn't seem to be quite there we go hang on instructed 20th of november 2015.
00:17:29 20th of november 2015. see roughly halfway down we took it from that there'd been a meeting on that date but i don't know whether that helps you no sorry don't worry
00:17:43 now could i turn to page two of this email
00:17:49 and it's the final email which starts hi janus at the bottom of that page sent by exposement 1655. it says further to our meeting and carl's advice that f4 actions could be closed once we can give evidence
00:18:01 closed once we can give evidence contractors have been engaged investigation has begun can you confirm if w-2 actions can be closed if this evidence is concluded
00:18:10 concluded now you can just see right above that that
00:18:14 that janice ray ford did that to you
00:18:23 now did you agree or disagree with alex bosman's suggestion as to the evidence that was required
00:18:34 without seeing it i can't remember this email
00:18:37 email but my understanding reading this would be that you should have it should be complete if it's going to be closed out it my work must be completed
00:18:47 completed you could put down you can start the work on a set date but then there must be evidence that is being completed because the the impression here is that
00:18:58 because the the impression here is that alex bosman is trying to expedite closing of significant actions can you remember any further discussions with him
00:19:07 with him about the evidence that would be required
00:19:10 required satisfactorily to close off outstanding signal of connections not specifically but i'm going to say that i would have said you have to have evidence that the work has been completed
00:19:21 completed to the correct standard can you remember from late 2015 onwards whether alex bosman's recommendation was accepted or not accepted in terms of the evidence required to
00:19:33 in terms of the evidence required to close out outstanding actions i can't i wouldn't know that but i would know that when i went back to do the risk assessment next time if the w2 said it was closed out
00:19:44 said it was closed out and i got there and it wasn't i would be really really raising questions on why and when you did do subsequent fors do you remember that being a problem
00:19:55 remember that being a problem that w-2 indicated that an action had been closed off when it hadn't no it doesn't it's not one of those ones that says springs to mind that says that was a problem thank you now um the next topic i'd like
00:20:08 thank you now um the next topic i'd like to
00:20:09 to raise with you is um your knowledge of concerns that have been raised about the fire risk assessments by others with the tmo now during your time as a fire risk assessor
00:20:20 during your time as a fire risk assessor for the tmo did janice ray ever raise any issues with you
00:20:25 with you about your competency or suitability of your
00:20:28 your fire risk assessments no did she ever raise with you any concerns that had been raised by the lfb
00:20:39 about your competence or the suitability of of your assessments no because the document would have been given to lfb at the initial stage and they'd looked at them all the way through
00:20:50 all the way through did she ever raise with you any specific concerns raised by rebecca burton of the lfb regarding competence and the suitability of your fire risk assessments uh the name rings a bell and it's to do
00:21:03 the name rings a bell and it's to do with a
00:21:03 with a comment made by senior officers at a meeting and she says without evidence of minutes you shouldn't be saying that in the document and was that passed on to you by janice
00:21:15 and was that passed on to you by janice ray at the time it would have been because i would i've never met rebecca rebecca burton yeah but to the best of your knowledge recollection rather janice ray never
00:21:27 recollection rather janice ray never raised any concerns or reservations about you or your fras at any time no no
00:21:36 now the final topic that i'd like to discuss with you is a report completed by matt hodgson in september 2013 entitled safety management review
00:21:47 management review first of all can you recall that reporter indeed mr hodgson at all no it doesn't it's not a familiar name could we turn to tm00873398
00:22:01 could we turn to tm00873398 [Applause]
00:22:09 that's the front page and if i could ask you to turn to page 31
00:22:18 now one of the things that mr hodgson focused on was the fra program and completion rates of fra actions
00:22:26 actions documented between the 28th of february 2013
00:22:29 2013 and the 17th of july 2013. you'll see that from the final sentence at the bottom of the page now if we turn over to page 32 and look at the top of the page you'll
00:22:41 and look at the top of the page you'll see fourth and fifth down the number and percentage of actions that have been completed respectively by assets and regeneration surveying and assets and regeneration building
00:22:54 and assets and regeneration building services and it was 39 and 34 respectively now stopping there
00:22:59 there were those statistics something about which you were aware at the time
00:23:06 no now just below that summary table of statistics mr hodgson said this assets and regeneration have expressed
00:23:17 assets and regeneration have expressed some concern regarding the validity and practicality of some of the remedial works raised in the fra reports the issue was raised at meeting of
00:23:25 of 15th of august and has been investigated in more detail in consultation with the contractor then if we go to the bottom of this page
00:23:36 bottom of this page recommendations 23 investigate the assets and regeneration concerns in relation to the recommendations raised in the fra reports
00:23:44 reports and seek opportunities to simplify and streamline the process it was understood that a consultation with carl stakes and associates was to be arranged now do you recall a meeting being arranged with you to
00:23:56 meeting being arranged with you to discuss
00:23:57 discuss the hodgson report and his recommendation it doesn't spring to mind no do you have any recollection of the substance of this issue
00:24:09 substance of this issue it's a concern to simplify and streamline the fra process do you remember that being raised with you in late 2013 or indeed at all during the time you worked for the tmo no we as i said we'd have meetings where
00:24:21 no we as i said we'd have meetings where if a specific item come up and it could be dealt with as an item on an agenda for instance as i explained before like fire extinguishers
00:24:32 fire extinguishers that was an issue that could be trying to be raised but this does not spring to mind as an item mistakes thank you for the moment so we've reached the point where i'd be grateful for a break to see if there are
00:24:43 grateful for a break to see if there are any questions i've not asked which i ought to yes and no doubt pick up others yes well mr stokes
00:24:50 stokes um mr kanina thinks he's reached the end of his questions but he needs to have a short time in order to check that there's nothing he's omitted
00:24:59 omitted and we also need to allow time for those who are following the proceedings but not in this room to suggest questions which they think perhaps ought to be asked so we'll break now is quarter not going
00:25:10 so we'll break now is quarter not going to be enough just a minute um uh 20 minutes i'd ask for 20 minutes all right
00:25:15 all right we'll break now until quarter to three then please so usual rules please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while they're out of the room and if you come back at quarter to three
00:25:26 and if you come back at quarter to three we'll see if there are still a few questions we need to ask you so all right thank you like to go the usher please
00:25:42 usher please there you go all right let's get across the street
00:44:56 [Music] yes would you ask mr states to come back in please
00:45:07 [Applause]
00:45:14 right mr stakes well we'll see if there's any more questions for you sir yes mr sir thank you i just have one more question for you mr stokes with the benefit of having given evidence over these past four days and
00:45:25 evidence over these past four days and with the benefit of fuller reflection is there anything you would have done differently it's a question i've reflected on or an
00:45:36 it's a question i've reflected on or an issue i reflected on constantly um i believe that i undertook the risk assessments to the best of my ability and within the requirements of the fire
00:45:49 and within the requirements of the fire safety order but i'm dreadfully sad because of the people that lost their lives and were injured and also how it's affected their family and friends
00:46:02 mr thank you and it leaves me to thank you for attending to give evidence to the inquiry awesome well mr stokes it's right that i should thank you as well on behalf of all all the members of the panel you've
00:46:15 all all the members of the panel you've been giving evidence the best part of four days it must have been quite an ordeal
00:46:19 ordeal and we're very conscious of the fact that people do find it difficult to come and do this but i'd like you to know we do find it very helpful to hear what you and others come to tell us it's very
00:46:30 you and others come to tell us it's very valuable to us and we're very grateful to you for coming along and now the ordeal's over and you're able to go thank you sir thank you mom thank you very much i would like to go to the usher then please
00:46:52 well mr cleo thank you very much that concludes mr stoke's evidence obviously yes uh our next witness is going to be janice ray is that right next monday and
00:47:03 janice ray is that right next monday and she's going to come on monday of next week
00:47:05 week that's right if anyone who's watching for the reasons that i explained earlier were not able to call janice ray this week whom we're going to start her evidence on monday of next week at 10 o'clock so we
00:47:17 monday of next week at 10 o'clock so we break now until 10 o'clock next monday thanks sir thank you very much indeed
00:47:46 you