C S Stokes and Associates Ltd Evidence - Tuesday 1st June 2021 (2/3)

Full transcript

00:00:19 well welcome back everyone i'm sorry about that interruption but i'm told that the fault's been cured and we're ready to continue so could you ask mr states to come back in please

00:00:43 all right mr stokes apologies for the delay that we are now ready to continue and hope won't happen again so all right when you're ready mr clear thanks sir uh mr stokes i think before the

00:00:54 uh mr stokes i think before the interruption we were about to uh turn to a concern expressed by gary mitchell

00:01:00 mitchell who's the contracts manager assets and regeneration in february 2013. and if i could ask to turn up an email correspondence tm01202165

00:01:11 correspondence tm01202165 forward slash two

00:01:15 and we see in the bottom half of uh sort of the top half of that page sorry

00:01:23 you see this is an email address to from gary mitchell to peter madison opening nine says this we have rge coming in to see us on monday with a full two years maintenance service reports and we'll interrogate the information they provide

00:01:35 interrogate the information they provide the problem we have is we've been given records that indicate rg are maintaining their plan program but don and i have questioned the validity

00:01:42 validity of the information produced did anyone report to you these concerns regarding the validity of the information produced by rge no again is that something you'd have

00:01:53 no again is that something you'd have expected the tmo to have provided to you that information about the concerns

00:02:01 i can't answer that question because i don't i wouldn't know what they would want to provide me with but i would like to think that they would have provided me with some information if

00:02:12 provided me with some information if they thought there was a problem now can we turn to forward in time now to

00:02:17 to march 2014 and just to give you some idea

00:02:21 idea of the context that the lfb visited the tower on the 12th of march 2014 and thereafter there was some email correspondence and discussion of the various points that had been raised by matthew ramsey

00:02:34 that had been raised by matthew ramsey of the lfb during the course of that visit

00:02:36 visit and can i first ask you to look at an email of the 13th of march which contains some notes of the discussions on that day that can be found at tm01205515

00:02:48 that can be found at tm01205515 forward slash 4. so can i just make an observation on that email please it says that they didn't realize that there were any failings until they were highlighted to us in it

00:03:00 until they were highlighted to us in it like in the fras yes thank you if we could now turn to the email correspondence of march 2014 and tmo

00:03:11 2014 and tmo there we go one trouble zero double five one five forward slash four and we see the email chain starts at the bottom of that page with an email from claire williams sent at 1543

00:03:23 email from claire williams sent at 1543 sent to janus ray but also copied to yourself and bruce soon's of studio e if we could turn over the page to page five and point two where claire williams's email deals with

00:03:34 where claire williams's email deals with the aov and she states this and i quote matthew that's matthew ramsey the lfb was very unhappy about the existing state of the smoke vent suite lobby of those looked at about 30 were

00:03:45 lobby of those looked at about 30 were not

00:03:46 not in the right position i've been chasing rge for two months now on their servicing records and had nothing back janice do you want to chase simon coleman or dill on this as i'm obviously getting nowhere

00:03:57 as i'm obviously getting nowhere matthew said about issuing us with a notice to confirm fully functional in six weeks

00:04:02 six weeks but maybe i can deal with daniel on this assuming

00:04:05 assuming we do have some servicing records now if i can

00:04:08 i can ask you now to turn to the bottom of page two of this email chain and we see that the very bottom the response from mr soon's

00:04:21 and if we can turn over the page to page three and it's roughly halfway down that page

00:04:27 page and below the bullet point that refers to a bike chained to a dry riser

00:04:46 so if we go further down that email

00:04:52 there we go and you'll see under the heading visit to lobby floor 5 you look down that list of dash points you'll see bike fan chain to dry riser the point immediately below that says this and i

00:05:03 immediately below that says this and i quote vents open and closed existing situation not working and it says below that matthew ramsey very unhappy with fact dampers do not appear to be functional risk of four-week

00:05:15 to be functional risk of four-week enforcement notice a demonstration would be required this is urgent

00:05:20 is urgent now did you understand from this email correspondence into which you were copied that the aov was not functional

00:05:34 no because the sorry first of all i the rge had a record that it was serviced and functional apart from i

00:05:45 serviced and functional apart from i think one item looking at the date and it says very unhappy with fact dampers do not appear to be functional um vents open and close but the system

00:05:58 um vents open and close but the system my understanding it's a mechanical system

00:06:02 system the system is also a ventilation system for the lift lobby areas so vents would be open or closed until the activation of the fire alarm system which would

00:06:14 system which would open the vents only on the fire floor where it activated and closed all the rest they could be in their open and closed position it was just a shaft up and down the building given that the lfb has identified that

00:06:27 given that the lfb has identified that the dampers do not appear to be functional and there's a risk of enforcement action being taken at the very least did that give rise to a concern in your mind about the functionality of the aov

00:06:40 no because if the fire service were going to ask for that that's within their remit they can ask for that and they would then be justified in asking and also the requirements that would come back to

00:06:52 requirements that would come back to satisfy themselves that it was working correctly

00:06:55 correctly now if we can turn to a letter which you wrote on the 18th of march 2014 prompted by this correspondence that can be found at tmo1200572

00:07:21 there you go and the date of the 18th of march opening line thank you for asking me to comment on the questions raised by the lfb officers during their visit to the above buildings which included grenfell on 12th of march

00:07:33 grenfell on 12th of march now if you could ask us to go to the top of the second page of this letter

00:07:39 you say this and i quote the emergency smoke control extract panel was showing healthy

00:07:45 healthy when looked at yesterday with the switch in the auto position the flat lift lobby extraction system is activated by the automatic fire detection device on each of the flat lift lobby area ceilings the extraction

00:07:56 lift lobby area ceilings the extraction system works by the vents on one side of the flat

00:07:59 the flat lift lobby area expelling the smoke with inflow air coming in through the vents on the other side of the lobby area and then if we look at the very end of this page in the final sentence

00:08:13 end of this page in the final sentence in which you say this i am assuming that as rge have serviced the smoke extraction system of grenfell tower that all parts of the system were checked

00:08:23 checked now first of all did you yourself inspect any element of the aov system before writing this letter only as it's said there i would and taken the photographs

00:08:34 taken the photographs that it was healthy and showing green so you looked at the panel yes so you didn't inspect the inlet dampers you would have to take the inlet dampers

00:08:45 you would have to take the inlet dampers are we talking about the louvers well did you inspect the inlet dampers any element of that element of the system

00:08:54 system so the terminology do you mean louvered vents or the dampness which could be internally within the shafts which would be fire dampeners or the louvered vents that cover each

00:09:06 louvered vents that cover each opening on each floor-lift lobby area did you inspect any of those aspects of the system which you've just identified the ones that were visually available yes now you in your letter um you didn't

00:09:18 now you in your letter um you didn't refer

00:09:19 refer there to the concerns that claire williams or bruce soon had raised and their email corresponds to the 13th of march

00:09:25 march can you help us as to why you didn't refer expressly to those concerns which concerns me the ones in the email correspondence i've just taken you to mr stokes so i can't remember what they

00:09:36 stokes so i can't remember what they were sorry do you want to get back to them please perhaps you should do that yes um can we go back to tmo one trouble zero double five one five forward slash four

00:09:56 and there we go claire williams's email 12th of march you're copied in turn over the page to page five

00:10:07 point two

00:10:12 is the extract i quoted to you

00:10:31 if we go to page two in this chain

00:10:36 you'll see the bottom and response from bruce soon to claire williams copying you in

00:10:42 you in do you have that yes okay let's turn over the page to page three it's until the 13th of march if we can scroll down this email remember i identified the heading visit

00:10:54 remember i identified the heading visit to lobby floor 5 so and then look down at the dash points do you see something which says vent open and closed existing situation not working below that matthew ramsey

00:11:07 not working below that matthew ramsey very unhappy of fact dampers do not appear to be functional risk of four week enforcement notice a demonstration would be required this is urgent now my question was a simple one

00:11:18 urgent now my question was a simple one was why didn't you refer to those concerns and address the substance of those concerns in your letter of the 18th of march 2014 i think i did answer those questions sir

00:11:34 can i now ask you to go back to your letter

00:11:38 letter of the 18th of march is that tmo trouble zero double

00:11:45 and go to page two and if we could go to the top of this page and you'll see there

00:11:52 see there in the second paragraph you said this the smoke extraction system is on a planned preventative maintenance program with rge this contractor last serviced the system according to their on-site log book on

00:12:03 according to their on-site log book on the 15th

00:12:04 the 15th uh 15th 13th sixth uh please see appendix a below the previous loose page in the log book was full and the service before this one was in september 2013 so i'm assuming that the 15th month is a

00:12:15 so i'm assuming that the 15th month is a mistake in the engineer month of the 12th month as can be seen the engineer checked all of the items in the quarterly checklist and the only fault recorded was the 19th floor relay as the next quarterly service is imminently due on the smoke extraction

00:12:27 imminently due on the smoke extraction system

00:12:28 system i would recommend the contractors asked to service the system and any findings etc

00:12:32 etc made are actioned now in your fras you'd specify that there should be monthly testing of the aov but here you've noticed that they are undertaking quarterly

00:12:44 undertaking quarterly servicing why did you not say in this advice letter that the aov should be tested monthly

00:12:57 so the monthly we could be an occupiers check

00:13:01 check quarterly is a service contractors check which is slightly different and that's the reason why you didn't refer express

00:13:12 the reason why you didn't refer express you didn't correct them in your letter of advice of the 18th of march okay now can i turn to a separate question

00:13:19 question which is that of interim measures and the meeting that was held on the 16th of september 2014. now in paragraph 107 of your first witness statement and we can find that

00:13:30 witness statement and we can find that at cst

00:13:32 at cst quadruple three zero six three forward slash thirty seven

00:13:40 and if we could just amplify paragraph one zero seven you say in the opening sentence and i quote prior to receipt of this deficiency notice on 18th of august 2014

00:13:51 2014 i was asked by ms ray to undertake the 2014

00:13:54 2014 fra close quotes now you can take it from me that your 2014 fra was carried out on the 17th of october

00:14:03 october 2014. now was the deficiency notice there you were referring to the one which had been served on the 24th of march 2014. i'm going to say yes then sir thank you

00:14:15 i'm going to say yes then sir thank you so by the time you're instructed in august 2014 to carry out your fra of grenfell

00:14:20 grenfell um which you did in october 2014 you had been aware for some months of the contents of the deficiency notice which had been served in march 2014. so thank you now you go on to say in

00:14:31 so thank you now you go on to say in paragraph 107 this and i quote second line onwards as usual i sought various information in advance of inspecting the tower and on the 12th of september 2014 open

00:14:42 and on the 12th of september 2014 open bracket zero eight five three close brackets i received an email from this ray saying that claire has asked ryden's to investigate the current state of the ventilation extraction system uh with

00:14:53 extraction system uh with uh js wright and inviting me to a meeting to discuss this now can we turn to that email which can be found at cst quadruple zero three one seven eight forward slash

00:15:04 forward slash one

00:15:11 now it says at the very top of that chain claire has asked ryden's to investigate the current state of the ventilation and extraction system of grenfell

00:15:21 grenfell and claire has set up a meeting to discuss and see whether it is necessary to instigate any interim measures in advance of the system being replaced and she asks you to attend now you're the addressee there

00:15:33 to attend now you're the addressee there although it's redacted now the subsequent meeting was held on the 16th of september 2014 first of all do you remember attending that meeting

00:15:44 that meeting not specifically no can you remember a meeting at which simon lawrence attended to discuss the aov so i'm trying to think who simon

00:15:56 so i'm trying to think who simon lawrence is uh from writing

00:16:00 i can't it's does not specific no now in his witness statement and the reference is we don't need to go to it but is ryd triple zero nine four double two zero forward slash 14 paragraph 68

00:16:13 14 paragraph 68 he says that the meeting was held on the 16th of september 2014 with you him claire williams and possibly janice ray to discuss the fact that the aov was not working

00:16:23 working does that ring any bells now no he doesn't sir

00:16:29 do you recall any meeting where interim measures to be applied to the aov were discussed

00:16:34 discussed with anyone from ryden no you don't remember any discussion at all on that subject no i don't so now let's see if we can um help you

00:16:48 now let's see if we can um help you and that you wrote a letter to january after that meeting on the 23rd of september

00:16:53 september 2014 so that's a week later and that can be found at cst 003 0043

00:17:05 003 0043 now as you'll see from the bottom center it is a 10-page letter now the aov is discussed at page nine

00:17:16 the aov is discussed at page nine at questions 27 and 28 and if we go to that

00:17:20 that and just amplify

00:17:24 those if i just invite you to refresh your memory of what you wrote there at

00:17:30 27-28

00:17:46 yep now having refreshed your memory do you have any recollection now meeting on the 16th of september 2014

00:17:56 no i think this is me walking around the building this isn't i didn't i can't remember a meeting but this is me walking around the building

00:18:07 well if you have no recollection of it let's move on and let's move on to the 2014 fire risk assessment itself when you conducted the preparatory work for that fra would you

00:18:20 preparatory work for that fra would you or did you routinely look at the aov maintenance contractors records yes and can i ask a document to be put up on the screen

00:18:34 tm00879757 which is a report from rge who are the maintenance contractors and it's dated the 11th of october 2013. and it's hand written there we go so i'll just let you

00:18:45 i'll just let you have a quick scan of the the front page

00:18:54 now if we could turn to page three

00:18:59 and you'll see midway down that page and a sentence interrupted with three asterisks which says in case of an emergency we cannot guarantee

00:19:10 emergency we cannot guarantee these events working correctly asterix poor system needs attention asterix do you recall

00:19:21 needs attention asterix do you recall reading

00:19:22 reading that advice and warning in ige's report as you carried out the work for your 2014 fra

00:19:32 i can't remember seeing this particular document no i i had seen one and i quote one in the fra but the one i quote

00:19:44 quote one in the fra but the one i quote had a relay damaged i can't remember seeing this one but the message there is blunt stark and clear would you agree agreed if i'd just seen it always given

00:19:56 agreed if i'd just seen it always given this one yes now can we turn to an email conversation into which you were copied which is initiated by alex bosman on the 9th of october 2014 so that's eight days before you

00:20:09 so that's eight days before you conducted you you completed your fra and that can be found at cst quadruple zero one six two eight forward slash one

00:20:24 and if i could look at the bottom of page one

00:20:29 you see that the email from mr bosman 9th of october center 11 57 addressed to hi janice claire and carl please see email below for reference i've attached

00:20:41 email below for reference i've attached the fire alarm service cert from 26 6 2014 which is valid i'll forward all certs asap thanks alex and if we go to page two

00:20:56 you'll see there a further email 9th of october 1153 again sent by alex bosman and the opening

00:21:04 opening salutation is hi carl matthew and greg now in fairness i should say it's not clear whether you're the carl who is carl sperry but the redacted block clearly shows you can

00:21:17 the redacted block clearly shows you can take it from me that you were copied in to this email and the email says this material and i quote i have an lfb inspection of the blocks above which includes grenfell and urgently

00:21:29 which includes grenfell and urgently need to have the attached assets serviced

00:21:31 serviced rectified moving on smoke extract you'll see

00:21:36 see roughly halfway down the email i understand a visit was carried out on 6th of october 2014. this system has been confirmed as beyond repair

00:21:46 repair and is scheduled for replacement shortly no further action required

00:21:53 and then if we go to the top of page two the very top we can

00:22:03 move this apologies from page three you probably

00:22:12 probably can't come on to a particular extract i'm looking for but bearing in mind what advice had been given by alex bosman there about the system being confirmed as beyond repair

00:22:23 system being confirmed as beyond repair can we now turn to your fra at the 17th of october 2014 which is at cst quadruple zero three one five seven forward slash twenty six

00:22:37 and this is uh section 19 and if we go just below halfway on this page you'll see a sentence which starts

00:22:46 starts there is an automatic opening smoke ventilation system and it says this located on each flat lift lobby area there are two sets of vents

00:22:55 vents each of two vents and opposite walls on the flat lift lobby areas there is a smoke detector located on each flat lift lobby area which upon activation opens the vents on that floor level two vents are for inflow

00:23:06 vents are for inflow air the other two are extraction the mechanical extraction units and the control panels for these vents are located in the roof level plant room on the wall

00:23:13 the wall there is a manual override facility located in the ground floor lift lobby area for use by the fire service please see section 17 above means of giving a warning case will fire for more information on the lift lobby error

00:23:25 information on the lift lobby error detectors

00:23:26 detectors and then it goes on to say this as part of the building's refurbishment this smoke extraction system is being upgraded

00:23:33 upgraded this currently installed system was serviced by rg services on the 11th of october 2013 the smoke extraction system incorporates dampers within the ductwork

00:23:44 dampers within the ductwork now why didn't you include in that section the information which had been set out in alex bosman's email

00:23:53 email about the system not working because it says there it's being refurbished as part of the upgrade but wasn't it necessary and relevant

00:24:03 relevant to include the most up-to-date information that as at the date of your fra the advice from alex bosman was that the system wasn't working

00:24:15 the system is being upgraded fire brigade

00:24:18 brigade no have the same information as i have i was ccd and it was copied to them

00:24:26 they are the information authority and i now know that the system here is being upgraded as part of the refurbishment can we look at this slightly differently

00:24:38 can we look at this slightly differently isn't the fact that the aov was quotes beyond repair closed quotes a relevant factor when you came to determine the risk rating for the tower

00:24:52 a consideration what's the difference between a relevant factor and a consideration was a staple policy so the people wouldn't necessarily would only evacuate if they their

00:25:04 would only evacuate if they their fire was in their flat let's look at this slightly differently would you agree

00:25:09 agree that a non-functioning aov would have heightened the risks facing residents if a fire broke out in the tower

00:25:22 it would heighten the risk slightly but because there is a stay put policy it is only the smoke control system is to

00:25:33 make certain that the lift lobby areas are clear of smoke even if it had elevated the risk slightly

00:25:41 slightly that is a relevant factor that ought to have been made explicitly in your fra shouldn't it but it is covered there by saying that the smoke extraction system is being upgraded

00:25:53 extraction system is being upgraded at the risk of being unduly loyally mr stokes

00:25:57 stokes the prospect of the system being upgraded is wholly different to the system not working properly or indeed being beyond repair isn't it cheers and that should have been set out

00:26:08 cheers and that should have been set out in your referee shouldn't it um again it's a staple policy so the only thing that's if as long as the dampness or sorry as long as the vents are shut on that floor level

00:26:21 are shut on that floor level the system would not allow smoke to permeate

00:26:25 permeate elsewhere in the building the lift the sustainable policy therefore the any fire shield or smoke should not get out to the lift lobby areas

00:26:35 areas because the fire door of the flat should hold it shut

00:26:40 let's look at this again slightly differently would you agree that by not recording the fact that the aov

00:26:47 aov wasn't working you gave rise to the incorrect assumption that the aov would work in the event of a fire but the aov was working it wasn't working a hundred percent where do you say that

00:26:59 a hundred percent where do you say that in the end i don't know and the information and the remote control system the aovs is automatically opening vents is just an event that will open and shut

00:27:10 is just an event that will open and shut on an activator but the information you've been provided with by alex bosman was that the system was beyond repair wasn't it

00:27:19 that's a terminology in wording beyond repair

00:27:23 repair it's not working if the system was not there

00:27:26 there per se on the lyft lobby area the system is still

00:27:30 is still in the staircase is still working because that's a natural ventilation system

00:27:34 system let's move on to a separate topic which is the uh your description of the notification deficiencies issued by the lfb now in october 2014

00:27:45 lfb now in october 2014 and your sub fra and your subsequent fras you include a summary of the notice of deficiencies that have been issued by matthew ramsey on the 24th of march 2014

00:27:56 on the 24th of march 2014 and it's probably useful to look at page 8 of your october fra which can be found at cst quadruple zero three one five seven forward slash eight

00:28:14 there we go if we that just be slightly amplified

00:28:19 it says an audit under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 was undertaken in this building fight fire safety inspecting officer matthew ramsey of the london fire brigade with a notification of fire safety deficiencies being issued

00:28:31 deficiencies being issued this notification of fire safety deficiencies was issued by london fire and emergency planning authority elfipa on the 24th of march 2014 the alfi per reference is set out and you go on say a copy of this

00:28:43 set out and you go on say a copy of this deficiency notice is held by the tmo health and safety team based on the network

00:28:46 network hub there were three requirements on this notice these are one a system of monitoring should be implemented for the smoke ventilation system

00:28:54 system installed on the flat lift areas and a maintenance shuttle put in place so the system is kept in good working order two a maintenance schedule should be put in place for the emergency lighting system installed in this building

00:29:05 system installed in this building and the system kept in good working order three training on fire issues should be given to staff who work in the ground floor level reception area of grenfell tower

00:29:16 reception area of grenfell tower and then the three deficiencies highlight in the notification of fire safety deficiencies as issued by the fire officer are covered in this fire risk assessment and on significant finding sheets that accompany this fra

00:29:28 accompany this fra now can you help us why did you set out that information in this fra and the subsequent fras

00:29:36 for overall continuity of the building so anyone looking at this could see a history of the building and that there was a deficiency

00:29:47 was a deficiency issue notice issued to it now can we turn to the notice deficiencies itself which can be found at lfb triple zero three two one zero

00:29:58 triple zero three two one zero one forward slash one

00:30:05 there we go premises grandfather and if we can turn to page three it sets out the deficiencies identified there are three columns the article of the order is said to have

00:30:18 the article of the order is said to have not been said to have been contravened second error of concern thirdly steps considered necessary to remedy the contravention now my first question is this you have

00:30:30 now my first question is this you have not included in your fra the information set out in the middle column name the area of concern would you agree with that

00:30:42 i think i have covered it in there well let's put both documents side by side mr stokes

00:30:48 stokes and if we could keep this page open and if we could put up page eight of your 2014 fra

00:30:54 2014 fra which is at cst quadruple zero three one five

00:30:57 five seven forward slash eight

00:31:09 now the question was would you agree that you haven't included the substance of the information set out in the area of concern column in your paraphrase of the content of the

00:31:21 in your paraphrase of the content of the order set out in the fra because it says there are three requirements so the requirements of the notice are the three items there not the areas of

00:31:31 of as you call it the areas of concern or the letter calls it the areas of concern and you haven't set out in your fra uh the steps that the lfb considered necessary to remedy the contravention have you

00:31:42 have you no but it says on my document that the copy of the notice can be found at the hub please go there if you want it

00:31:50 want it can you help us as to why you paraphrased the substance of the lfb's concerns rather than setting them out clearly and verbatim so everyone could know in precise terms

00:32:01 know in precise terms what was concerning the lfb because the requirements the actions of the document are set out there

00:32:09 there if they wanted a full copy of the notice the notice is held at the hub as it says now bearing in mind uh the preceding history uh with the aov

00:32:20 uh with the aov can we look at the error the summary of areas of concern in relation to article 11

00:32:25 11 1 and it says there and i quote failure in the effective monitoring of preventive and protective measures for example a significant number open brackets approx 25

00:32:36 brackets approx 25 to close brackets of automatically opening vents within the common parts of the premises were found not to be in working order no suitable system of monitoring was in evidence to identify deficiencies

00:32:47 evidence to identify deficiencies with the smoke ventilation system that substance is to be found nowhere in the summary of the notice deficiencies in the fra would you agree with that proposition

00:33:03 as i said that i've put the requirements down not

00:33:07 down not that item looking at that how would they know

00:33:11 know that 25 of the automatic opening events were not in working order unless they tested the system at that time when they were on site well

00:33:22 at that time when they were on site well isn't the reality of the situation mr stokes that the lfb has set out what it is set out in relation to the errors of concern and my question was do you accept that you have not quoted that

00:33:33 accept that you have not quoted that in this section of the fra i have only quoted the requirements but i have put down that the full notice can be found

00:33:40 be found at the hub rather than copy out verbatim the whole of the lfb's note issue would you accept that by not setting out the substance of the lfb's concerns in

00:33:51 substance of the lfb's concerns in relation to the aovs you've given the impression of downplaying the gravity and seriousness of the problem no

00:34:01 now if we can stay with your october 2014 fra and put down the notice of deficiency for the moment uh can we look 25

00:34:14 uh can we look 25 okay make it so the this is march

00:34:19 14 yep is the deficiency and my fra is october 14. yep um

00:34:30 six months later so this is with hindsight because the work

00:34:39 work in the notice should have been completed within

00:34:43 four weeks i think you said earlier on or six weeks well we'll come on to that later

00:34:50 later uh but the questions are that in your fra

00:34:53 fra uh can you identify for us where you uh were satisfied that the works had been carried out

00:35:09 perhaps it will come clearer when we go with other questions respect of your fra now if we can as i asked put down the notice of deficiencies and turn to page 29 in the frame

00:35:40 there we go thank you now you'll see this is section 23 dealing with testing and maintenance mr stokes if we look at the

00:35:48 the fifth box down from the top it asks is there a monthly testing and annual servicing and maintenance of any automatic opening vents along with any associated equipment devices with records kept you've ticked no

00:36:01 records kept you've ticked no and there's no further detail provided in the commentary box below and just so you can satisfy yourself of the latter part of what i've just said if that page could be de-amplified

00:36:19 now can we take it from that that by the time of your assessment in october 2014 the issue highlighted by the lfb in march of that year namely that there was no suitable system of monitoring to identify deficiencies

00:36:32 of monitoring to identify deficiencies remained an unresolved problem six months later so the no could really mean that there is no monthly testing or there's no annual testing on

00:36:45 or there's no annual testing on the section for the ao for the smoke control

00:36:49 control um is there a date in there so it's not there's not a date here but where it says no that could mean

00:37:00 but where it says no that could mean there is no monthly testing being undertaken or no annual service

00:37:06 given that there is a virtue in clarity mr stokes it lay upon you didn't it as the fire risk assessor to make that clear and yet there is no clarity in the commentary box below

00:37:17 commentary box below can you help us explain understand why you gave no detail or raise no further questions

00:37:22 questions without seeing what does the f sorry the question i would have would be the what does the significant finding say on this issue well can we just look at this box mr

00:37:34 well can we just look at this box mr stokes that was the question that was asked

00:37:35 asked yes you've said you've ticked no to the question regarding uh is there a monthly testing annual servicing along with records kept you accept that

00:37:46 along with records kept you accept that yes

00:37:47 yes looking at the commentary box below there's no further explanation or commentary on that answer is there no and my question was a straightforward one

00:37:57 one mr stokes can we take it that the problem that had been identified six months earlier by the lfb i.e there were no records in broad terms remained a problem at

00:38:08 in broad terms remained a problem at this stage but there were records were provided to me that it was being serviced

00:38:16 serviced it's if there is a no tick there there would be

00:38:20 would be a comment in the significant findings sheet

00:38:28 now just to follow up this point can we just move on in time to your fra of april 2016 which can be found at cst quadruple zero

00:38:39 which can be found at cst quadruple zero three one

00:38:39 three one six one forward slash eight so this is 18 months plus after the event

00:38:51 event and you'll see at the foot of the page number one

00:38:57 again you referred there to the deficiency notice of march 2014 you say a copy is available at the hub you identify the requirements of the notice and you say a system of

00:39:08 notice and you say a system of monitoring should be implemented for the smoke ventilation system installed on the flat lift areas in a maintenance shuttle put in place so the system is kept

00:39:16 kept in good working order and then you go on to say this which seems to be new as part of the construction work a new automatic opening ventilation system has been installed in this building

00:39:28 has been installed in this building now we can go to if needs be but you didn't update either section 17 or 19 of this fra with the information about the new aov can you help us understand why you

00:39:40 can you help us understand why you didn't update those relevant sections of the fra

00:39:43 the fra because probably at this time on the april i wouldn't have that information being what the new system because i don't think it had been

00:39:54 system because i don't think it had been commissioned as yet so you just knew of the well what it says here

00:39:59 says here as part of the construction work a new automatic opening ventilation ventilation system has been installed correct

00:40:06 correct so are you saying that you knew the fact of the installation but nothing more so it's been installed but is it in working order yet commissioned and had you what

00:40:17 commissioned and had you what information when you completed the april 2016 fra what information had you sought about the operating procedures of the system itself

00:40:29 system itself i can't remember the exact dates but i actually

00:40:33 actually went to a testing of the system along with lfb crews undertaken by the

00:40:44 undertaken by the installer and i believe there was emails in the meantime and from building control that i was copied into and london fibregate i think their fire

00:40:57 and london fibregate i think their fire engineering department were actually designing and helping to commission sorry

00:41:03 sorry helping to design the new system now you've just said the system had been installed

00:41:09 installed there is nothing in this fra that says whether the system was operational or not

00:41:15 not that was relevant information wasn't it for the purposes of the fra it's ongoing at the moment this fra is under being undertaken just before all the systems are being handed over

00:41:30 sorry to interrupt you but just cutting to the chase folks it was relevant and necessary to set out in this fra whether the system was working or not so i agree with that it

00:41:42 i agree with that it agreed why didn't you put it in then i would like to think it is in there somewhere if i've put it is installed i in the significant findings or in one of the boxes it would say the system is to

00:41:54 the boxes it would say the system is to be commissioned and i would ask for items like that the whole system should be commissioned commissioning certificates provided um

00:42:05 commissioning certificates provided um operators instructions manuals could be provided kept on site how it works et cetera et cetera well let's deal with what you did do and justin

00:42:15 justin yes fairness to you go to section 23 of the fra and this can be found at page 30 3 0 in this document and if we go to the bottom of that page

00:42:26 and if we go to the bottom of that page you'll see that the box with which the fifth box with which we're now familiar is there a monthly testing and annual servicing and maintenance of any automatic opening events along with any associated equipment devices

00:42:37 equipment devices with records kept now you've ticked the not applicable

00:42:42 box and if we could turn over the pages for the sake of completeness

00:42:49 and sorry if we could de-amplify and actually look at the comments and observations box for moving on and i'll just invite you to refresh your memory looking at what's set out there

00:43:22 now there's nothing in that commentary box which says that the system is operational or not is there by ticking not applicable i'm thinking that it's not applicable as i said it's installed but not working

00:43:34 i said it's installed but not working that's not correct an answer is the question i asked correct there's no reference there to me no there isn't no now there's no reference there to the documents that you would have liked or you were

00:43:45 you would have liked or you were expecting ought to be provided in due course once it was operational is there not in this one i haven't seen the significant finally so i can't answer that

00:43:54 that um did you know at this stage who was going to maintain the aov system no not definitively it would be on a contract

00:44:02 contract maintenance contract first year had you been informed of the identity of the contractor at this stage only that as it was earlier on j s right or i knew there was a contractor

00:44:15 s right or i knew there was a contractor in place

00:44:17 in place now can we turn to the significant finding schedule which is at cst quadruple zero three zero nine eight forward slash eight

00:44:31 and if we could look at item 23g you see penultimate one from the bottom of the page

00:44:37 page the identified risk is said to be are the weekly occupiers test of buildings automatic smoke ventilation system being undertaken in the actions to be taken column it says this weekly occupy inspection of

00:44:48 says this weekly occupy inspection of the building smoke ventilation system should be undertaken with the results recorded as proof of the inspections having been undertaken there is no reference there is there to whether the system's

00:44:59 is there to whether the system's operational or not yep there's no information there as to the types of records and documents you'd be expecting to see once it had become operational is there

00:45:10 once it had become operational is there uh these not covered so this is just testing is it not covered further up the page under section 17. well let's have a look if you want to

00:45:30 that could be amplified so we go 17 starts at the bottom nothing there is there no let's turn over page

00:45:46 19b so

00:45:50 is that what you're wanting to identify so thank you now can we turn to the design of the new system

00:45:56 system and if i could ask you to put down that document and turn up the first statement of yours which is a paragraph 111 which can be found at cst quadruple

00:46:12 0-3063

00:46:16 and

00:46:19 there we go thank you

00:46:23 and then just to sort of fix you in the statement you refer to a letter you received on the letter date of the 10th of april 2015 and if we turn over the page you say i

00:46:35 and if we turn over the page you say i met with the ventilation consultant who is designing the new flat lift lobby area

00:46:40 area and staircase ventilation systems for the tower

00:46:44 the tower full details these systems are to be provided but according to the consultant the systems have been agreed in principle with both the rbkc building control department and the lfb fire engineering team close

00:46:55 and the lfb fire engineering team close quotes

00:46:55 quotes you then say in your statement i also then suggested that written confirmation was sought from the consultant to confirm what he had told me verbally now

00:47:06 what he had told me verbally now if we could just explore this element of what you say in your statement first of all

00:47:10 all who was the ventilation consultant i've got no name sorry can you remember whether they were from psb or from another outfit i was just there as an observer i wasn't

00:47:22 i was just there as an observer i wasn't even meant to be there because i was in working that day i was just asked do you want to go along i think was the i understand that but can you remember whether they were from

00:47:33 can you remember whether they were from ps no i can't remember can you remember the gist of what you were told

00:47:39 were told about the design of the system i was given

00:47:44 given afterwards some information and it was a mechanical system to be um

00:47:54 from the top of my head i can't remember but i had information given to me on like a user's guide

00:48:02 were you actually given a physical copy of the user's guide to keep for your own records i'm going to say

00:48:11 to say a guide yes i was given a copy you were i believe so because that's where i would have got information from was there any discussion of the extent to which the new system complied with

00:48:23 to which the new system complied with relevant british standards or any other applicable guidance

00:48:28 off the top of my head i can't remember but if it's not in that guidance my understanding was that building could obviously building control were overseeing here along with the lfb's engineering development

00:48:41 lfb's engineering development can you remember whether there was any discussion of the um the system being a depressurization system and the implications of it being a depressurization system

00:48:53 that would not have bring to mind depressurization pressurization yes i would have understood but depressurization no no can you remember looking at maybe slightly differently to jog and your memory was there

00:49:05 jog and your memory was there was there any mention of the fact that the effect of a depressurized common lobby would have of drawing in smoke from the flat which was on fire that's why i'm was hesitant when you ask

00:49:16 that's why i'm was hesitant when you ask that question because depressurization is a very very um complicated system to use and the shafts in the building were

00:49:30 and the shafts in the building were existing and have been around for a long time so to do something like that to a system would be far beyond what i would think would be undertaken um

00:49:41 um i don't mean this rudely but would the uh the detail the minutiae of how the system operated be outside the scope of your knowledge and expertise yes i would understand the basic

00:49:53 yes i would understand the basic principles how it worked but i wouldn't have any calculation or knowledge would you have had a handle on the the relevant sections of the relevant guidance i'm thinking of british standard one two one zero one that's it

00:50:06 standard one two one zero one that's it no

00:50:06 no okay and would you have been aware of broad terms even if not the specifics of the guidance that the depressurized system would provide no protection of any part of an escape

00:50:18 no protection of any part of an escape route within the depressurized space itself

00:50:20 itself which may be entirely filled with smoke or may even be fully involved in the fire

00:50:24 fire well that's why i was kind of like when you said to me a depressurized system because it's not something you would well i would have thought you would put in and they're not common did you raise that reservation at the

00:50:35 did you raise that reservation at the time when you were when you were attending this discussion i never heard anything about a depressurized system

00:50:45 was there any discussion of the the effect of the operation of the aov on escape routes or indeed for firefighters my understanding was that the system was

00:50:57 my understanding was that the system was being designed as a site specific system because of the way i'm this the shafts are already there and they

00:51:09 the shafts are already there and they were being extended just turning back to your statement looking back on the screen you'll see the final sentence of paragraph 111 said i also then suggested that written confirmation was sought from the consultant

00:51:20 consultant to confirm what he told me verbally can you remember whether the tmo ever provided to you the written confirmation that you'd advise they should take no no

00:51:35 can we take it from your previous answers that before you completed your fra

00:51:39 fra in june 2016 you did not know who was responsible for servicing and maintaining the aov system oh correct i wouldn't have known the name of a company did you ask at any

00:51:51 name of a company did you ask at any stage before as you were carrying out the preparatory work for your june 2016 fra i would know that if you when you any system is guaranteed for the first year and you would sign a contract that's a standard

00:52:03 standard for any system did you ask for example what their regime was for maintenance of records and where they'd be kept etc maintenance of records would be at the hub i would expect

00:52:14 hub i would expect that to happen um i knew that the the new room had been created on the ground floor for that system

00:52:25 on the ground floor for that system along with secondary power supplies etcetera etcetera are all in that room now can i turn onto this of the next topic logically which is the commissioning

00:52:36 commissioning of the aov system itself and its demonstration now if we can stay in your statement which is on the screen but go to paragraph 134 which is at page 46.

00:52:53 now you say there that you attended the commissioning of the new aov at grenfell can you remember when that took place now

00:53:04 no not an exact date no there's a date here

00:53:07 here that i couldn't remember what that date was okay

00:53:11 was okay can you remember what was demonstrated to you

00:53:15 to you uh the system on the wall the by that do you mean the side of the path there's two panel might so as you went into the lift lobby area through the main doors it was open

00:53:28 through the main doors it was open before you got to the lifts at the back this panel was on the wall on the left next to a door that went through to i believe was going to be a meeting room but there was a disabled toilet in there

00:53:41 but there was a disabled toilet in there it was on the wall there and then there was a replica panel of with all the backup systems in a room on the other side of that wall okay now was there any discussion that you can

00:53:53 was there any discussion that you can remember was the word depressurization used

00:53:56 used i can't that's something i would have picked up on but that was not used you refer there to a service engineer being present can you remember his name or her name uh

00:54:09 his name or her name uh mail mail can you remember who else was there

00:54:15 i'm gonna say it was one of many undertaken and i was with a fire crew local fire crew

00:54:25 crew do you remember the identity of the crew manager

00:54:29 can you remember whether there were any questions asked about compliance of the system with applicable british standards or any other guidance no was that an assumption that it did at least on your part

00:54:40 least on your part well it shouldn't have been installed if it didn't comply with some sort of stuff right um you refer there to an email of the 5th of august 2016 from janus ray and we can find that

00:54:52 2016 from janus ray and we can find that at cst

00:54:53 at cst quadruple zero two nine zero five

00:55:04 and just let you

00:55:09 and it's entitled we don't need to go through it the header is the the key for the question here it says explanation of how the enviro environmental system works

00:55:20 environmental system works now did as far as you can remember now um were you only provided with details of how the environmental aspects of the system worked and not the smoke extraction element of

00:55:32 and not the smoke extraction element of that system i think i was provided with documentation maybe not at this time but subsequently documentation for both i can remember asking for each lift

00:55:44 i can remember asking for each lift lobby area had a manual override box i can remember asking then how was this going to work where were the keys kept and how was the operating instructions

00:55:57 and how was the operating instructions can you remember whether you were provided with the commissioning report i'm going to say that i got that a very much

00:56:05 much later date after this fra there was certificates were provided to me now one of the points which you refer to in your statement is reliance on

00:56:16 in your statement is reliance on building control and if we could go back to your

00:56:18 to your second or sorry if we could go to your second statement which is at cst triple zero three zero one eight six forward slash three six

00:56:30 six forward slash three six and it's paragraph 131

00:56:34 and if that could be amplified at all times however i was relying on building control's assessment of the aov in terms of compliance with the functional requirements of the building regulations i was aware that this would have been this would have been based on its

00:56:46 this would have been based on its officer's own expertise in conjunction with information submissions made to it by the various construction professionals involved in the refurbishment of the tower did building control ever provide you

00:56:57 did building control ever provide you with a final assessment of the aov system or copies of their final certification

00:57:04 building control wouldn't would only have

00:57:07 have site i'd start again the assessments from building control they would rely on from the contractor i believe i got a commissioning certificate from the contractor but

00:57:19 contractor but nothing via building control it all came from the tmo so it came in directly from the tmo i'd never i had no direct contact with building control can you remember receiving anything was

00:57:30 can you remember receiving anything was it simply the certificates and nothing more formal any other formal documentation beyond that that you were provided with i was yes correct that's the documentation certificates

00:57:41 certificates i never had any um see um computer generated

00:57:48 data or anything okay can i now turn to the question of weekly testing and if we could go to css mr can you mind if i just interrupt you for a moment because we've been running for

00:57:59 moment because we've been running for nearly an hour the plan i think you may be warned mr stokes is that we should run

00:58:03 run through without a break until one o'clock but if you'd like a break now would be the time to have it i'm quite happy sir you're happy yes sir very good and shorthand writer

00:58:14 very good and shorthand writer right i'm sorry thanks sir um if we could go to cst quadruple zero zero one double nine forward slash eleven

00:58:35 and this is uh your letter to janice ray let me see it's 13 page letter you see at the top there item 23g high identified risk or hazard are the

00:58:46 high identified risk or hazard are the weekly occupiers test the building's automatic smoke ventilation system being taken into action to be taken weekly occupier inspections of the building's smoke ventilation system should be undertaken

00:58:57 system should be undertaken the results recorded as proof of inspections having been undertaken now do you know what testing had been taking place to this point no sir

00:59:08 to this point no sir anything about frequency no thank you now can we turn to a separate topic which is the external facade and could we go back for this purpose to

00:59:19 and could we go back for this purpose to your first statement at cst quadruple zero three zero six three forward slash four zero and hopefully it'll be paragraphs hundred fourteen hundred fifteen

00:59:33 hundred fourteen hundred fifteen and starting under the heading the external walls of the tower paragraph 114 says this and i quote i've been asked about one my awareness of the facade design

00:59:44 of the facade design to my awareness of the properties of the acm panels and insulation used as part of the tower facade

00:59:50 facade and three my views on the compliance of the design with building regulations paragraph 115 says this and i quote i cannot remember when i first became aware that the tower was to be overclad

01:00:03 aware that the tower was to be overclad as already pointed out the external walls of the building are not in my view part of the common parts covered by the fras

01:00:11 fras the external walls of the building not being covered by the fso now having regards what you've said there

01:00:20 there i now want to go through past 79 and then also the lga guide and then see having reflected on what they say whether your view changes are set out here now first of all can i

01:00:31 are set out here now first of all can i look at past 79 and particularly the competence standard at appendix d which is entitled behavior of fire in buildings

01:00:38 buildings and that can be found at cta quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash 69

01:00:50 three forward slash 69 i really want to look at the fourth paragraph on page 69. and it's the one that starts with the words accordingly and it says this and i

01:01:01 words accordingly and it says this and i quote

01:01:02 quote accordingly the fire risk assessor should be able to generally determine how fires can start and

01:01:08 and how the spread of fire and products of combustion can impact on components of the building identify failures and or changes to the building

01:01:16 building that could change the way a fire and products of combustion travel through the building and scrolling down to enable

01:01:28 to fire risk assessor spelling is correct to carry out the above the fire risk assessor should have and going down an awareness of how different construction materials behave in the

01:01:39 construction materials behave in the fire

01:01:40 fire and awareness of of how different structural designs of buildings behave in the fire and going slightly further down and awareness of how to identify that the subsequent use or alteration of the building can

01:01:53 use or alteration of the building can invalidate pre-existing fire safety precautions and or strategies now my first question is were you aware of the substance of that advice yes now if we can look at appendix h

01:02:06 yes now if we can look at appendix h which i think mr millett took you to earlier in your examination and that could be found in this same document but at pages 73 through to 74. and if we look on the right hand side

01:02:18 and if we look on the right hand side appendix

01:02:19 appendix h and it states under the heading passive

01:02:22 passive fire protection this and i quote the fire risk assessor should have a knowledge

01:02:28 knowledge and understanding of the role in the provision of fire safety and if we could go over the page to page 74

01:02:37 74 and the left hand side if we scroll down i'm afraid a bit more

01:02:46 you see there in the very bottom left hand corner the heading in red the building envelope eg fire resisting external walls curtain walls it says this the significance of their role in protecting escape routes at

01:02:57 in protecting escape routes at boundaries were you aware of that principle as well yes

01:03:02 yes now if i could put that document down for the moment and turn back to your first statement which is at cst quadruple 0 3063 forward slash 42

01:03:17 forward slash 42 and paragraph 118

01:03:22 now you say in that last sentence and i quote i was also aware that the issue of external cladding is raised in paragraph 72 and 85

01:03:30 72 and 85 of the lga guidance although neither paragraph relates directly to fras now for the sake of completeness let's look at those relevant paragraphs of the lga guide

01:03:41 lga guide and if we could go first of all to paragraph 72 which can be found at h o m triple zero four five nine six four forward slash

01:03:53 five nine six four forward slash one one one

01:04:02 we see below the diagram under the heading in green i think it is external fire spread it says this at 72.1 and i quote external facades of blocks

01:04:13 and i quote external facades of blocks of flats should not provide potential for extensive fire spread when assessing existing blocks of flats particular attention should be given to any rain screen or other external cladding system that has

01:04:25 other external cladding system that has been applied and to facades that have been replaced 72.2

01:04:29 72.2 the use of combustible cladding materials and extensive cavities can present a risk particularly in high-rise blocks restrictions are normally applied to the nature of such materials

01:04:40 nature of such materials and in particular their surface spread of flame characteristics cavity barriers are also required in some circumstances assistance from specialists may be required to determine

01:04:51 required to determine if the external surfaces of walls are satisfactory and whether there is adequate provision of cavity barriers if now we could turn to paragraph 85 which is at page 129

01:05:08 which is at page 129 and 85 says this under the heading controlling alterations so that they are not detrimental to fire safety 85.1 says this and i quote alterations and improvements to blocks of flats can

01:05:19 and improvements to blocks of flats can be detrimental to fire safety if careful thought is not given to the possible

01:05:24 possible impact they might have problems can arise

01:05:27 arise not only when large-scale refurbishment programs are carried out but also during minor work that residents themselves might undertake and 85.2 says this processes should be in place for

01:05:39 processes should be in place for landlords and other responsible persons to scrutinize alterations and building work within common parts that could have an effect on fire safety in the block it is important that building regulations approval

01:05:51 building regulations approval is obtained where relevant and if we go just turn over the page to 130

01:05:59 we can see various examples are given and if we can look at the third one from the bottom of the box it says this and i quote that landlord undertaking a project to fit rain screen cladding to an existing

01:06:11 fit rain screen cladding to an existing block of flats without considering the potential for a fire from a flat to travel upwards through the cavity behind the cladding to spread into the flats above

01:06:23 now having taken you through those various bits of power 79 and also the lga guide do you still maintain your essential

01:06:34 do you still maintain your essential view

01:06:35 view that the external facade does not fall within the scope of an fra yes sir and is that for the reasons you gave

01:06:43 gave an answer to questions posed by mr millet yes sir now if we can go back to paragraph 72.2 of the lga guide so back to page 111.

01:07:01 of the lga guide so back to page 111. it says in the last three lines of that paragraph

01:07:06 paragraph assistance from specialists may be required

01:07:11 in respect of grenfell was it your view that assistance from specialists was required to advise the tmo

01:07:21 yes did you communicate that view to anyone at the tmo yes in this new confining sheets so i didn't catch that so in the significant finding sheets i made a

01:07:32 significant finding sheets i made a comment

01:07:33 comment now can we turn to the 2014 fra following on from that answer

01:07:42 answer and if we can turn back to your witness the first witness statement which can be found at cst quadruple zero three zero six three four forty one

01:07:55 and paragraph 117

01:07:59 and i think this is what you were referring to is that right mr stokes um the reference to significant finding schedule and your recommendation

01:08:15 yes sir

01:08:26 so is the central position this that although you considered the external facade to be outside the scope of your remit nonetheless you chose as evidenced here to make

01:08:39 chose as evidenced here to make recommendations in relation to it yes sir because as you highlighted earlier on i should take it into account at the time of your the fire risk assessment was carried out in 2014

01:08:51 assessment was carried out in 2014 did you ask anyone about the type of cladding that was being put on the building

01:08:56 building no why not because i don't think i knew aimed 14 i don't think i knew that until i'd seen the um example on the outside i didn't even

01:09:09 um example on the outside i didn't even know it was being clad were you aware that uh the mock-up that you were shown um was what was proposed for external walls it wasn't the actual cladding system

01:09:19 system itself i wasn't showing anything so i just happened to be walking by and looked up and there was this on the wall well it was on the wall above me i think there was more than one

01:09:31 style or type so you're aware that it wasn't the actual cladding system can i take it from that answer yes

01:09:42 did you ask prospectively about whether the cladding wars class zero and in as much as what it says there i asked the questions as the

01:09:53 i asked the questions as the consideration that i should undertake and your questions were limited to the substance that set out there so

01:10:05 now can i turn to the later fras so turn to april 2016 fras for the purposes of preparing that

01:10:16 fras for the purposes of preparing that assessment did you receive any further information about the cladding itself only in as much as i asked when i was on site were they compliant

01:10:27 when i was on site were they compliant from

01:10:27 from ryden's and i had i was told there was a building controls letter of comfort being issued to say it was compliant and was your question

01:10:41 it was compliant and was your question were these compliant is that the gist the question you actually asked when you're on site for the purposes of carrying out the april 2016 fra all the way through they were the questions i asked is this compliant

01:10:53 questions i asked is this compliant is it fixed compliant and are building control happy with everything that's there so is your evidence that you looking at the screen now looking at the

01:11:04 looking at the screen now looking at the recommendations you made there that you actively chased up answers to each of those questions yes and of whom did you ask those questions was it janice ray

01:11:15 was it janice ray no i well i asked ryden's

01:11:20 why wouldn't you ask janice ray as being the person to whom you were immediately responsible at the tma i think i probably did ask through well this is

01:11:29 this is i am asking janice ray by putting this document to her and the tmo okay but this is 2014 i'm asking you questions but events two years later

01:11:40 years later can you remember now in april june 2016 whether you asked janice ray the direct question whether she'd had satisfactory answers to each of those questions you posed in 2014.

01:11:54 questions you posed in 2014. directly answering that asking that question no

01:12:01 and so is the reality therefore that you were content with the informal information given to you by representatives of ryden whilst you're carrying out your various visits

01:12:12 you're carrying out your various visits for the preparation of the 2016 fras i was uh given assurances that building control had had a letter of comfort and therefore

01:12:24 had a letter of comfort and therefore they were happy with the overcladding or the cladding that was being used and it was fully compliant

01:12:31 compliant did you ask given what is recommended in the lga guide given what's recommended in past 79 did you ask janice ray to secure written confirmation of the information you'd

01:12:42 confirmation of the information you'd received informally from ryden during your tours on site yes you did

01:12:47 you did that would be part of the regulation 38 information which was asked for in the significant findings

01:12:55 now can we turn staying in your statement to paragraph 120 which is at page 42 so just over the page

01:13:04 page and it's just following on from the answers you've just given you say this at the start of that paragraph

01:13:11 paragraph when inspecting the tarot in april 2016 i spoke to various people including representatives from writing however i cannot now remember exactly who i spoke to on this occasion

01:13:21 occasion i asked about how the cladding had eventually been fixed to the tower now can you now remember

01:13:31 who the various people were that you asked these questions of no i

01:13:39 asked the questions of the people that were showing me around at that time or who presented to me to answer questions i had can you remember whether

01:13:50 questions i had can you remember whether simon lawrence was showing you around remember what level of seniority of individual was showing you around the

01:13:58 site dave hughes is a name that springs to mind and you can mind the panel what was his role in so far as you know onsite

01:14:09 to be honest i don't know his actual job title he was tasked with showing me around so he must have been someone senior or wet management of site management

01:14:20 management was he able to answer satisfactorily the questions you asked of him as you went around the site

01:14:26 yes

01:14:31 during the course of those discussions with mr hughes or however it was um was it during those discussions that you asked them questions about the cladding and the rest of it yes

01:14:46 and it's from those individuals that you obtained the information about a letter of comfort from building control that's and i also believe i was told that it was a letter of comfort from

01:14:58 that it was a letter of comfort from the tmo told me that as well i believe now

01:15:02 now you say in paragraph 120 that you ask questions

01:15:07 questions of fairest people including representatives from ryden did you ask questions of anyone for example from the cladding contractors themselves about what was being put on

01:15:18 themselves about what was being put on the building no why not hey i was never introduced to any of them and if they were there they would have been on the outside of the building and i was on

01:15:28 i was on internal at any stage did you ask to speak to anyone from harley no

01:15:39 harley no you give the impression in paragraph 120 that you spoke to various people who weren't involved in writing who else did you speak to who wasn't involved or didn't work for ryden the

01:15:51 involved or didn't work for ryden the gmo

01:15:53 gmo and is that it well unless they i was speaking to people who were with ryden

01:15:59 ryden on site if i wouldn't know whether they were working for ryden i was with those people at that time and were these on-site conversations the

01:16:11 and were these on-site conversations the only time you investigated or assessed the risk posed by the facade that was being rather the cladding that was being put on on the building apart from asking uh in writing in the real part of the

01:16:23 uh in writing in the real part of the risk

01:16:23 risk assessment process to for it to be confirmed it would be fully compliant with building control yes so the information gathering process was confined to the conversations you had on site and

01:16:35 the conversations you had on site and with the dmo

01:16:38 now staying with paragraph 120 you say this as can be seen from my handwritten notes

01:16:49 can be seen from my handwritten notes following discussions with representatives ryden i recorded ok fr no timber and quotes cladding external non-combustible metal fixing signed off by

01:17:00 signed off by bc

01:17:06 can you remember now was it dave hughes who gave you that information or was it someone else i can't remember actually who gave it whoever i was talking to at the time looking at the phrase ok fr

01:17:19 looking at the phrase ok fr what did you understand that abbreviation to mean fire rated

01:17:27 do you recall during these discussions in april 2016 any detail being given as to the type of panels that were to be used no we've given any information regarding

01:17:38 no we've given any information regarding the manufacturer no did you ask for that information no why because the it was overseen by building control did you uh were you told about the type

01:17:49 did you uh were you told about the type of insulation that would be used no or the manufacturer no and you didn't ask about it for the self same reason building control were involved did you ask about the performance or

01:18:01 ask about the performance or certification of the external war construction no and again for the same reason you've just given it's been overseen by building control it's a refurbishment

01:18:12 it's a refurbishment now you referred in your previous answers to the fras themselves and if we could turn to uh the fras i'm using april 2016 as an example here that can be found at cst quadruple zero

01:18:24 that can be found at cst quadruple zero three one six one and if we could look at page four on the top of that page

01:18:37 it says this and i quote new external cladding has been fitted to this building as part of the project of refurbishment construction work being carried be sorry been undertaken on and within this building the original

01:18:50 on and within this building the original external face of this building has been overclad

01:18:52 overclad the new fire rated cladding has fixed the out face of the building by metal fixings

01:18:57 fixings and the whole process has been overseen by the rbkc building control department and officers they have approved and accepted the fixing system and the cladding used

01:19:09 and the cladding used now did the term fire rated in your view apply to the cladding or to the fixings or to both both

01:19:20 what did you understand the phrase fire rated to me acceptable and approved by good in control and compliant with the

01:19:33 standard required which i'm going to say is 135

01:19:39 now when you wrote this is the april 2016

01:19:43 2016 fra remember when you say in the final sentence of the paragraph we've just looked at

01:19:49 looked at they have approved and accepted the fixing system and cladding used it's right that you haven't received any documentation from building control isn't it

01:19:59 isn't it correct because you received the letter of comfort on the 20th of june 2016 is that right yep that's correct yes now can we look i knew about that letter

01:20:10 now can we look i knew about that letter but i knew that that was coming as a result of the discussions you'd had on site yes now can we look at that letter of comfort which is at cst quadruple zero three one two six

01:20:28 now i'll just invite you to if that could be de-amplified sorry

01:20:35 i'll just ask you to have a speed read of that

01:20:49 when you're finished if you invite the document manager to turn over the page as it were

01:20:58 yes sir thank you

01:21:10 now looking at certainly looking at that letter of fresh and with coming at it uh objectively there doesn't appear to be anything in it that would give you any reassurance

01:21:22 it that would give you any reassurance that building control had quotes accepted and approved close quotes uh the cladding system was there there's no adverse comments and the cladding would not have been on the building

01:21:32 building if it hadn't been approved by them there is nothing expressed there that could give solid ground for comfort that building control had approved and accepted this

01:21:43 control had approved and accepted this cutting system was there there is only negatives on here work that needs to be undertaken otherwise it's all signed off as compliant

01:21:54 compliant now would you accept that you were sent a copy of the completion certificate in july 2016.

01:22:02 the full completions are due yes if you said yes so after you've written and submitted the 20th of june 2016 fra you didn't ask for any other

01:22:11 any other information or receive any other information concerning building control's approval of the system i've got a completion certificate i wouldn't have expected to have anything

01:22:22 wouldn't have expected to have anything else from building control right and that was and you were satisfied with that yes

01:22:30 so is the reality therefore that uh when you say that building control has approved and accepted the fixing system cladding news that was based solely on the informal conversations you've had on site no it was based on these documents

01:22:43 no it was based on these documents because there is yeah but sorry to interrupt mistakes that these documents were sent after sorry yes that i knew that these documents they were coming

01:23:03 given what path 79 advised given what the relevant paragraphs the lga guide

01:23:11 lga guide had advised wouldn't it have been sensible and prudent by including the information you had regarding the cladding system in the april and june 2016 fras

01:23:24 in the april and june 2016 fras but i didn't have any information at that time well that's the point but i wouldn't expect to have any information on those systems and the f safety order doesn't

01:23:37 and the f safety order doesn't have the external facade of the building

01:23:43 and so the consequence was that neither fra

01:23:47 fra could be said to have assessed the fired hazard posed by the cladding system could they because there's not parts in common but we've taken you through past 79

01:23:59 but we've taken you through past 79 agreed and i said if you just wait for the question it's probably easier for you

01:24:04 you sorry you've gone through we've taken you through the various appendices which you accepted you're aware of i've taken you through the relevant paragraphs of the lga guide all of which encourage in broad terms the risk assessor to have regard

01:24:16 the risk assessor to have regard to the external facade of the building here

01:24:20 here you have no substantive information about what is on the building when you completed your april and june 2016 fras wouldn't it have been prudent to have said that

01:24:31 said that given the purpose of a fire risk assessment and given the substance advice set out in power 79 and the lga guide it was covered in the statement that building control had overseen it

01:24:43 building control had overseen it it was covered that the regulation 38 information was required any subsequent fras of this building once i had that information

01:24:54 information could have been included in that those fras

01:24:57 fras but at this time this information hadn't been passed on now following on from that can ask us to go back to past 79 and appendix a mr stokes

01:25:06 stokes and that can be found at cta quadruple zero

01:25:10 zero treble 0 3 forward slash 65 and really the first paragraph on that page

01:25:25 and it says in the second sentence and i quote the competent fire risk assessor must be able to make a subjective judgment albeit based largely on objective evidence of the overall risk to life from fire in

01:25:37 of the overall risk to life from fire in the building for which a fire risk assessment is carried out close quotes

01:25:45 what objective evidence objective evidence

01:25:51 evidence did you have about the cladding panels when you wrote the april and june 2016 fras i was assured by building control that the cladding was compliant

01:26:03 that the cladding was compliant because they were issuing a building regulations completion certificate if it hadn't been compliant they should never have issued the certificate now let's take that one said you said you were assured by building control

01:26:16 you were assured by building control as should by the tmo and rydens that building control was signing those off and so the information you received from ryden's was via informal conversations on site that's right isn't it

01:26:27 on site that's right isn't it correct and the information you'd received was via conversations the tmo that's right isn't it correct you had nothing from the building control itself i was relying on building they

01:26:38 i was relying on building they knowing that building control was signing it off so in answer to the question

01:26:43 question you had no information directly from building control did you no information direct from building control nor would i ever expect to because i would only have had it from the gemma

01:26:54 the gemma so and would you accept therefore that you have no objective evidence from building controls that they'd approved effectively signed off the external cladding system

01:27:06 i have had

01:27:09 because if it had not been comply and building control wouldn't have signed a completion certificate or were had told the tmo if they were going to sign off a compliance i'm sorry to be difficult

01:27:20 a compliance i'm sorry to be difficult about this mistakes but the letter of comfort from building control the completion certificate came after the june 2016 fra agreed

01:27:32 after the june 2016 fra agreed right so would you accept this that you had for the purposes of the april and june 2016 fras you had no objective evidence upon which

01:27:44 you had no objective evidence upon which to rely

01:27:45 to rely that building control had approved and signed off the external cladding system would you accept that i had nothing in writing from building control correct

01:27:56 writing from building control correct you had nothing from building control did you all you had was informal assurances from ryden and tiemoue correct

01:28:04 can you is the burden of the point you're really putting to mr stokes that he should not have made those statements in the letter because in the end he was right in the

01:28:15 because in the end he was right in the building control had signed off the cladding uh yeah we did sign off the cladding

01:28:21 cladding well the burden of the point is that looking at what is set out in appendix a and the emphasis placed on the burden on the competent fire risk assessor that at the time uh when he made the

01:28:32 that at the time uh when he made the express statement that building control had proven accepted he had no objective evidence upon which to rely and i think that's what i've tried to put repeatedly to mr stokes yes well that's why i sought to clarify

01:28:46 yes well that's why i sought to clarify that your point is that he should not have made the statement yes not that he should have done something different that's right apart from not make statement yes all right you want to comment on that mistakes but

01:28:58 you want to comment on that mistakes but i always

01:28:59 i always understand the point that yes being put because you wrote that you didn't have anything from building control that's the point correct but i was reliant on them and was told

01:29:10 was told that it was coming and therefore i've put it down as the risk assessor because i know that document's coming well you i think the suggestion might be

01:29:22 well you i think the suggestion might be that mr kinnear will correct me if i'm wrong

01:29:25 wrong that you'd have been wiser and maybe more accurate to say i expect it to be approved by building control

01:29:32 control so yes yes sir but then i would argue the point that

01:29:40 that if it was to be declined by building control it should never have been on the building in the first place that's a fair point so can i turn to something linked to but different to the

01:29:52 something linked to but different to the point we've been discussing and that's an email you sent to yourself on the third of may 2016 which can be found at cst quadruple zero one double four nine

01:30:04 quadruple zero one double four nine an email is entitled quotes cladding grenfell close quotes and it attached a photo of grenfell tower and the photo we don't need to go to it but is it cst

01:30:15 we don't need to go to it but is it cst quadruple zero one four five zero can you remember now why you sent a photo of the cladding to yourself in may 2016.

01:30:26 just so i had it as a reference

01:30:30 nothing more yes can i now turn to a separate topic which is the 20th of june 2016 fra um first of all why were you asked to carry out an fra in june when one had been carried out in

01:30:43 in june when one had been carried out in april 2016.

01:30:47 one was just before handover and one was after handover as far as i'm aware can you remember whether you were given any particular instructions in relation to the 20th of june fra

01:31:01 i would i'm guessing the one i don't guess

01:31:04 guess i'm sorry the one of the instructions would have been um have any items from the april one now been signed off or have been completed now we've just been discussing when

01:31:16 we've just been discussing when practical completion took place and had not yet taken place as at the 20th of june 2016. wouldn't it have been more sensible to have awaited practical completion before carrying out

01:31:27 practical completion before carrying out the fra

01:31:28 the fra i would as instructed did you raise fossil did you have that reservation at the time

01:31:35 the time i've nothing i thought about i just undertook it as instructed so you didn't raise any concern with janice ray say listen it might be better if we wait until practical completion before i carry this out well

01:31:48 before i carry this out well when i took out undertook the june one still the lower floor levels still hadn't been completed so the boxing club the nursery was still

01:32:00 the nursery was still under refurbishment we noted that the invoice you submitted for this fra described it i think i'm writing saying as an fra

01:32:08 as an fra review would it be fair to describe the june fra as a review of the april fra they were all put down as reviews sir because they weren't initials so on the pricing it was only ever

01:32:21 so on the pricing it was only ever the first time you ever went to the building was the first one everything else was a review after that thank you

01:32:29 thank you now can i turn to a separate and distinct topic which is advice on tall buildings

01:32:33 buildings and in particular a letter sent on the 6th of april 2017 by the lfb now just to give you um some proper context here on the 19th

01:32:44 um some proper context here on the 19th of april 2017 you received an email from janice ray which forwarded a letter from the lfb the 6th of april 2017 letter entitled tall buildings external fire spread

01:32:56 tall buildings external fire spread now if we can look at that letter which is rbk

01:32:59 is rbk triple zero two six triple

01:33:06 eight

01:33:17 and i'm sorry rather hoping for the letter itself

01:33:28 there we go thank you and if we look at the third paragraph could i invite you rather than everyone having to listen to me could i invite you to read from the third paragraph down

01:33:41 from the third paragraph down until the paragraph which starts with the words and ends it starts with words i would therefore strongly urge you so the five paragraphs from the third one

01:33:52 and if you could shout when you've done

01:34:02 that

01:34:30 um to the bottom of the page uh it's to the fifth five paragraphs flowing from that one it's the one then to the one finish the one which starts i would

01:34:41 finish the one which starts i would therefore strongly uh say yes i think you need to go over the page to page two thank you

01:34:55 yes now if we can go back to the covering email that under which this letter was sent to you that's cst quadruple zero three one two three forward slash one we look

01:35:16 forward slash one we look the second email down from the top

01:35:19 janice rowe forwarded that to you at 11 04 pm

01:35:27 11 04 pm and if we look at the top you responded to her

01:35:31 to her the same night at 23 16

01:35:36 so some 12 minutes later and you said this and i quote noted that is why i asked ryden's for the information and compliance for the cladding and will dowsing or grantful ryden's provided all

01:35:48 dowsing or grantful ryden's provided all the information and stated compliance with the requirements of the building regs close quotes

01:35:56 quotes now you responded 12 minutes later at 23 16 in the evening did you look at any documents or records before sending this response

01:36:12 can we just scroll down of course please

01:36:19 yep um no i knew what they were talking about so if we go to the top of the page again in your email

01:36:29 email the phrase in the first line will dowsing presumably that should mean windows windows now to clarify the information that you're referring to there in the opening

01:36:40 referring to there in the opening sentence

01:36:41 sentence is that the one or two conversations you had on site plus such conversations you had with the tmo this is to do with this letter isn't it yeah so

01:36:51 yeah so i know the building in shepherd's bush there is no cladding on that building it's a brick building and i knew immediately that having seen the building having seen the fire

01:37:03 the building having seen the fire it was to do with spandrels and a fire in one flat then going up the building

01:37:11 building from where the windows had been infilled at the bottom with newer panels

01:37:22 okay so to answer the question i asked

01:37:26 that is what i was asking a question in relation to the email you sent at 2316. yes we said that is why i asked ryden for the information the information referred to there is that the information that was listed via

01:37:37 information that was listed via informal conversations on site and such conversations you had with the tmo and in relation to the letter that i was asked about there

01:37:48 asked about there that doesn't say that does it no so i'm full of reflection is that what you're referring to there both yes although you didn't refer to the to the lfb's letter or the facts of

01:37:59 lfb's letter or the facts of uh so initially this as you quite rightly say though sir that this is i ask for the information and compliance of cladding and windows

01:38:11 were you sent all relevant information about any replacement window and facade schemes as the lfb advised or should be obtained no because that's external facade

01:38:27 notwithstanding past 79 the lga guide that's the line you took for not seeking further information notwithstanding the prompt having read the letter that you were talking about sir the

01:38:39 talking about sir the um i can't remember the title um tall buildings tall buildings that externals fire spread so that letter once i had read it

01:38:50 so that letter once i had read it was to do with spandau panels the building of shepard bush is a brick for outer facade and it was purely to do with infill panels in windows and on the second page of that letter

01:39:04 and on the second page of that letter because it's to do with the

01:39:10 so i can't remember the actual phrasing for the scheme where you don't have to go through building control yes he says you must go through building control and it has to be signed off by building control

01:39:25 now if we can go to a separate document which is cst quadruple zero three double one two forward slash one which is an email from janice ray on the

01:39:37 which is an email from janice ray on the 24th of

01:39:38 24th of april so some five days later at nine zero nine thirty four in the morning and if it's at the foot of this page

01:39:48 carl my understanding is that we do not have any blocks of external cladding of this nature are you able to confirm please

01:39:55 please i need to write back to the director of housing and i think you're probably best placed to advise me on the construction of our blocks please advise and then over the page says thanks janice now you your reply thank you

01:40:09 you your reply thank you you replied immediately above the email sent at 12 20 so less than three hours later says grenfell

01:40:17 grenfell as far as i know that is correct grandfather was clad but the cladding complied with the requirements of the building regulations lots of questions asked of writings and answers

01:40:26 answers received back from them

01:40:32 now had janice ray ever asked you before for advice regarding the cladding or the external facade

01:40:39 facade no

01:40:43 at this stage did you before replying to janus ray

01:40:48 janus ray go back to your records to ascertain the information you were giving to her was correct

01:40:53 correct the letter doesn't ask for he's not talking about cladding he's talking about spandau panels and infills and windows

01:41:01 windows but the letter talks about tall buildings

01:41:05 buildings yes it talks about external fire spread yes

01:41:08 yes janice ray had never previously asked for your advice it was clearly a matter of concern yes given that background my question was a simple one mr stokes

01:41:20 simple one mr stokes did you go back and check your records before responding to miss ray's email i never had any information on the cladding at grenfell anyway so i had no records to check

01:41:36 did you think that you were best placed to advise her in relation to the issues raised by the lfb's letter of april 2017.

01:41:51 she was i would i'm guessing i'm sorry i'm thinking here i am one of my other people were asked the same question for my

01:42:02 question for my information i was answered answering from my knowledge this letter did not apply to grenville because it does not apply to cl cladding this letter applied to spandrel

01:42:14 cladding this letter applied to spandrel panels

01:42:15 panels and was site-specific to shepherd's bush and on the second page it says about the requirements of building regulations and

01:42:26 regulations and the building control officer had signed off

01:42:30 off grenfell tower anyway so much my question

01:42:33 question again was a simple one mr stakes

01:42:37 did you think that you were best place to advise

01:42:41 to advise miss ray in relation to the matters raised by the lfb in their letter given your particular expertise and background i did not even think of that answering

01:42:53 i did not even think of that answering that at the answer to that question i would answer the question i was asked by miss ray whether i was the best person or not or if she asked anyone else you'd have to ask her i just answered the question i was posed

01:43:06 i just answered the question i was posed now you said earlier in evidence that i think you assumed

01:43:13 assumed that she'd be asking other people this question

01:43:16 question just looking at this email she's only asking you at this stage isn't she she could have asked other people i mean i'm only answering the question i'm being asked here in front of me

01:43:27 being asked here in front of me why did you assume she could have been asking other people on what basis because i would ask other people i would have asked um anyone else who was around her at the

01:43:38 anyone else who was around her at the time

01:43:40 time wouldn't it have been prudent to have directed miss ray towards ryden or harley facades of the asset management team to give her more informed advice on the risk of external fire spread presented by the

01:43:52 external fire spread presented by the cladding system that had been put on grenfell

01:43:54 grenfell that could be additional information but it would be covered by the building regulations and regulation 38 information that the tmo should have at this time

01:44:06 the tmo should have at this time now earlier in your evidence i think in answer to a question mr millet put you last week uh you accepted that a fire risk assessor must quote have an ex an exp awareness of the

01:44:18 have an ex an exp awareness of the limitations of the fire risk assessor's own experience and knowledge and i quote a willingness and ability to supplement existing experience and knowledge where necessary by obtaining external

01:44:29 where necessary by obtaining external help and advice now that's from pas 79 clause 7 commentary and indeed

01:44:37 you said that the assessment of clouding was a matter for specialists now having regard to that acceptance you say in paragraph 177 of

01:44:48 acceptance you say in paragraph 177 of your witness statement and if we can go to this it's the first one which is cst quadruple zero three zero six three forward slash fifty seven

01:45:00 and you say it 177 and it's in the middle of this paragraph prior to the fire so starting on the end

01:45:11 prior to the fire so starting on the end of the fourth line your own knowledge of the existence and properties of the materials installed at the tower was limited close quotes

01:45:20 quotes given that limited knowledge why did you proceed to advise ms ray at all about whether the cladding on the tower

01:45:28 tower was of the same nature as that covered by

01:45:31 by the lfb's letter of the 6th of april 2017.

01:45:34 2017. because the lfb's letter was about spandrels not about cladding shepherd's bush is not over clad with any other matic with no material it's a brick building but i go back to

01:45:46 it's a brick building but i go back to the question i put to earlier on mr stokes it was clearly a source of concern to miss ray correct she was seeking advice

01:45:56 advice given all of that given the fact you weren't a specialist why didn't you simply direct her to ask the question of someone who was a specialist advisor in relation to the cladding sorry i'm

01:46:08 in relation to the cladding sorry i'm being stupid but the the letter refers to a brick building and it refers to infill panels not claddy

01:46:22 would you accept that by advising miss ray in the manner you did in your email

01:46:28 email of the 24th of april

01:46:32 and it may well be useful to go back to that cst quadruple zero three double one two forward slash one

01:46:43 you said grandpa was clad but the cladding complied with requirements building regulations lots of questions asked the writers and answers received back from them in giving that advice weren't you acting

01:46:55 in giving that advice weren't you acting beyond

01:46:56 beyond your knowledge and expertise and you ought not to have expressed yourself in such unqualified terms

01:47:04 terms but the question i was asked carl my understanding is do we my understanding is that we do not have any blocks with external cladding of this nature

01:47:15 of this nature shepherd's bush didn't have external cladding on so therefore the tmo the grenfell tower or any other tmo block didn't have any external cladding of the same nature as shepard's bush can i now turn to a

01:47:27 as shepard's bush can i now turn to a separate

01:47:28 separate topic mr stokes and that's gas if we go to cst quadruple zero two seven three one

01:47:40 and if we could start really at page three of this chain

01:47:49 and just see you'll see at the bottom of the page there this is uh an email from the grenfell town leaseholders association sent by tonde hawadero to peter madison

01:48:00 sent by tonde hawadero to peter madison about exposed gas lines running through the staircase and if we go up the chain to page one

01:48:07 and we'll hopefully see then email you sent there we go at the top of the page on the 8th of march at 1408 and you say to janice ray

01:48:20 and you say to janice ray second line from the photos that you have sent appears that far stopping around the pipes has been undertaken can you help us what photos had you seen at this stage

01:48:52 so this is dated the 8th of march 17 yes i'd gone to the building in the january

01:49:03 and you think that's the basis on which you express the view there i understand they had been boxed in

01:49:16 and were you satisfied that what you had seen

01:49:20 was representative of all pipe work and appropriate fire stopping had been comprehensively carried out so i've got no context of whether this is fire stopping in to the staircase enclosure

01:49:33 in to the staircase enclosure or fire stopping from the lift lobby areas into the flats

01:49:40 so you can't help us now as to on what basis beyond the photos so satisfied in giving the advice you did there in the second line of the email on the 8th of march she says my letter dated to 30 to john

01:49:54 she says my letter dated to 30 to john 17 attached were there any answers given to the questions raised

01:50:03 so i went there to look at this pipe work

01:50:07 work and told them immediately that they should fire stop all the holes that the gas engineers had put into the building i cannot remember going back and the

01:50:18 i cannot remember going back and the photos from the photos that you have sent so without seeing those photographs that i've been sent i can't comment

01:50:30 can you remember whether at the time you were satisfied that those photos indicated the work had been carried out comprehensively looking at this from the photos that i had been sent i'm only commenting on that photo

01:50:42 that photo that's why i've commented at the bottom my letter dated the 30th jan are there any answers to the questions raised okay thank you right can we now turn on to a separate topic so i'm mindful that we are

01:50:55 topic so i'm mindful that we are four minutes to one yes is this next topic going to take a little while it it'll probably take longer than four minutes so in the circumstances

01:51:06 four minutes so in the circumstances might i invite you to rise until five to two

01:51:09 two because i think it's only four minutes to one we might as well rise until two o'clock

01:51:13 o'clock obviously but i'm assuming that you're not

01:51:16 not doing too badly given the loss of time earlier on we're not doing too badly at all mr stokes's evidence will be finished today we'll do ah that's really sure mr stakes i think we'll stop now for some lunch then please

01:51:27 then please um please remember what i said to you earlier about the importance of not talking about your evidence or anything relating to it to anyone over over the break all right

01:51:38 to anyone over over the break all right thank you so we'll resume at two o'clock please and if you'd like to give the usher that will be sir helpful thank you

01:51:57 thank you two o'clock

01:52:38 you