Evidence from Daniel Osgood of Osborne Berry, the cladding installers. Reveals installer was never trained or approved by panel manufacturer, never checked fire performance of materials, assumed everything supplied by Harley was compliant, and wasn't aware insulation products were combustible.
00:00:11 good yes would you like to ask mr osborne to come back in please okay
00:00:33 right mr ross born ready to carry on i'm ready thank you very much thank you very much yes that's great yes thank you mr chairman yes mr osborne just to pick up on a couple of points arising for your evidence this morning
00:00:44 evidence this morning um you talked about the red pen drawings that had the cavity barriers marked on them and where you were to put the cavity barriers was that a drawing of a a bay just one
00:00:55 was that a drawing of a a bay just one bay of grenfell tower it was the side of a side elevation of the building a side element side elevation of the building yeah okay and they were marked from top to bottom on that one right great thank you
00:01:07 great thank you so i now want to ask you some questions about the the choice of materials and the compliance of those materials just turning to page two of your first witness statement this is osb 6087 at page two
00:01:21 osb 6087 at page two and at paragraph four d you at the top of that page you're asked the question was the exterior of the building
00:01:29 building compliant with relevant building regulations fire regulations etc and you say this um i do not know the answer to this question i worked on the basis that all materials supplied to us for installation by
00:01:41 supplied to us for installation by harley were compliant and did you ever have any discussions about issues of compliance with building regulations with anybody at harley or any other person on the project
00:01:51 project not at all no
00:01:56 did you ever have any discussions with anyone on the project um including on-site about the performance of the materials you're installing and specifically their fire performance
00:02:09 performance i don't think so no okay from memory i would say no yeah did you yourself ever have reason to consider the fire performance of the products that you
00:02:21 performance of the products that you were installing
00:02:24 not at the time but hindsight yes now i do
00:02:29 do yeah had you heard ever heard of the term class class naught or national class naught at the time
00:02:38 time yes i have in what context what did you think that meant i thought that was a non-burnable product and did you ever have uh did you ever have any discussions with anyone or did
00:02:49 have any discussions with anyone or did you ever come across the term class naught on the grenfell project i believe the installation was supposed to be a class naught yeah did you ever discuss that specifically with anybody
00:03:00 specifically with anybody no not at all but if i'd asked you at the time
00:03:04 the time about the five properties of the insulation would you have said it's a class naught product probably not no okay probably not but that was your belief was it that's my belief yeah
00:03:16 belief was it that's my belief yeah now the aluminium composite material panels
00:03:21 panels um if we can go back to the bill of quants that you were sent um this is osb 7051 at page two
00:03:39 and if we look on that page yes page two what we see under each of the headings there is well we see the headings are zinc rain screen to columns
00:03:53 headings are zinc rain screen to columns and rip zinc rain screen to crown screen zinc rain screen to walls and then underneath each of those headings we see it says
00:04:01 it says proteus rain screen system kme that's correct yeah and we know also that there's a there's
00:04:12 we know also that there's a there's reference to h92 in brackets we know that's a reference to the cladding section of the nbs specification on the project
00:04:22 now we know from the documents and from speaking to other witnesses that by august 2014 a decision had been made to seek planning approval to change from
00:04:33 seek planning approval to change from zinc
00:04:34 zinc to acm aluminium cladding material
00:04:39 were you ever told that acm panels were going to be used in place of zinc panels no we we assumed it was acm panels from day one as far as i can remember so
00:04:52 as far as i can remember so did you ever look at this document i mean you said you were involved with mr berry
00:04:56 berry in drawing up the price in response to this did you notice i didn't tie that in that process rain screen system because by that time i'm sure we were under the impression it was
00:05:07 under the impression it was a acm panel not a zinc panel i see so is it your evidence that you didn't notice that it said proteus rain screen system correct
00:05:19 rain screen system correct and that is it also your evidence that you think by the time you were pricing the project that you were aware it was acm i think it could be yes but you can't recall who might have told
00:05:31 but you can't recall who might have told you
00:05:33 you sorry i think we're having a tendency to speak you're speaking quite quickly um sometimes in response to my question and i know it's my fault too we've got to try and
00:05:43 try and separate them out so the transcriber can hear nice and clearly um so
00:05:50 um so you knew at the time you were installing these panels did you that they were acm aluminium panels and not zinc rain screen panels i knew they weren't zinc but i couldn't give you a guarantee i knew it was
00:06:01 give you a guarantee i knew it was what it was going to be all i knew it was going to be an aluminium panel yeah basically did you know that they were called rayna bond panels and that they'd been manufactured by
00:06:12 manufactured by alcoa or arconic
00:06:16 at the time no
00:06:22 did they have any kind of markings on them which would have when they arrived on site most definitely there was low-tech tape across the panels with the the name renault written on them in bold letters
00:06:36 can we just turn to a document this is bba6047
00:06:41 bba6047 this is the bba certificate for the reynabond acm panels that were installed on the tower um it's dated or was first issued in january 2008.
00:06:53 january 2008. we can see that from the bottom of the page in the pale blue box and have you ever seen this document before not at all no
00:07:04 would you ever as an installer come to look at something like a bba certificate on a project no not not that i can remember
00:07:13 remember not that i can remember you would just be told what you're going to fit basically yeah so can we take it that you didn't look at this at any time during
00:07:23 during your involvement on the grenfell project that's correct
00:07:28 now if we turn on to page three of this certificate there's a section headed general at the top of the page and in the third paragraph down it says
00:07:39 and in the third paragraph down it says this
00:07:40 this it is important for designers planners contractors and or installers to ensure that the installation of the cladding is in accordance with the certificate holders instructions and the information given in this
00:07:51 and the information given in this certificate do you see that there i do
00:07:56 did you know at the time you were fitting the panels that you had to ensure that the installation was in accordance with the certificate holders instructions and information in the bba certificate
00:08:07 and information in the bba certificate it did not were you ever provided with any separate instructions from alcoa or iconic the manufacturer of the panels which had to be followed by those installing the cladding
00:08:18 installing the cladding not at all did you ever ask to see any information from the manufacturer of the panels to check that the installation was being carried out in line with its requirements no
00:08:33 and and why not was that not information that you
00:08:37 that you needed or ought to check i took my instructions from harley i would have assumed they would have got somebody down if it was necessary to actually check it yeah does that mean that it wasn't
00:08:50 yeah does that mean that it wasn't usual for you to check manufacturer's instructions before installing materials in a rain screen cutting system that's correct
00:09:00 and then if we turn on to page six of this certificate section ten it also says there in sec in part 10.2
00:09:11 it also says there in sec in part 10.2 in the middle of that page installers must be trained and approved by the certificate holder who can provide technical assistance at the design stage and at the start of the installation
00:09:24 the installation now was osborne berry trained at any stage by our alcoa or arconic not at all was osborne berry at any stage approved by alcoa or arconic as a an installer of
00:09:37 alcoa or arconic as a an installer of its panels no
00:09:41 were you aware when you were fitting the panels on the building that the fixing for the panels deviated from the standard archonic detail for cassette systems
00:09:52 systems hung on bolts no no you weren't aware of weren't aware of that
00:10:02 what did you think was inside the core of the panels when you were installing them
00:10:07 them some kind of plastic membrane so you didn't notice that they had a core yes most definitely and is that all you knew about it that it was some kind of plastic membrane
00:10:18 it was some kind of plastic membrane correct
00:10:19 correct did you know it was polyethylene or pe i think it was probably on the panels on the actual low-tack tape on the panels i think it
00:10:30 low-tack tape on the panels i think it could have had pe written on there but i can't be sure now it's a while back
00:10:34 back how do you come across polyethylene or pe previous to the grenfell project you use
00:10:39 use the same panel on little venice but from a different manufacturer yeah did you know anything about the fire performance of pe at the time you were
00:10:50 performance of pe at the time you were installing the panels not at the time i installed it now did you ever have any discussions with anyone during the project about the fire performance of that core not that i can remember
00:11:04 were you aware that the polyethylene core of the panel was exposed around its perimeter when you were installing it and again did you ever discuss that with harley or
00:11:16 did you ever discuss that with harley or any other party on the project no
00:11:22 now if we can go to a transcript of mr hughes's evidence of ryden if we can look at day 27 page 54
00:11:39 and i want to pick up from line seven so mr hughes was asked were you aware at the time of working on the project that if a fire occurred in the building which led to significant flames being
00:11:51 which led to significant flames being ejected from the window the cladding panels would likely fail because they would melt and fall off the building
00:11:57 building was that something that you were ever made aware of and then he says this i had one conversation with taff about it but my understanding or what i got in my
00:12:08 but my understanding or what i got in my head
00:12:09 head was the actual fixings the lug system where you hooked the panel on that little bit there would fail just through heat in the same way i was told at chalcott's they warped
00:12:20 they warped so i think it was more of a warping that i expected or the plastic might lose a little bit of strength and then he's asked when you say you had one conversation with taf about it
00:12:32 conversation with taf about it yes were you then just describing the conversation you had with taf yes that's it sorry yes now do you see that there i do
00:12:44 now do you see that there i do um i had so many conversations with dave i can't remember if i did say this or not but i wouldn't deny it because i do not know or cannot remember
00:12:56 because i do not know or cannot remember so you can't have you can't recall whether you had any conversations with him about
00:13:00 him about what might happen to the panels if if significant flames were ejected from the window
00:13:04 window not off the top of my head now okay can we just look over at page
00:13:11 um the next page so i just want to check i've picked up everything i need to no that's it thank you thank you um
00:13:27 now the crown i now want to ask you just some questions about the architectural crown of the building if we look at your second witness statement at page 12 this is osb
00:13:38 statement at page 12 this is osb 6090 and i want to look at what you say at paragraph 21 a at the top of that page in your ass please explain the work
00:13:50 in your ass please explain the work involved in making top crown angle panels
00:13:54 panels please give a description of the scope of osborne berry's work in this respect and then you say this harley supplied the top crown panels these panels arrived in flat pack they needed to be angled by bending and
00:14:06 needed to be angled by bending and riveting together before installing onto the building now i just want to ask you a bit more about that work was that work in terms of bending and
00:14:18 was that work in terms of bending and riveting that these flat panels together was that done by osborne berry it was and was that done according to instructions from harley it was yeah and who gave those
00:14:29 it was yeah and who gave those instructions um it's a little bit more detailed than that
00:14:36 that the panels would come from the manufacturer yes with all the grooving in them so the panel was three mil thick there'd be a groove put in it which you
00:14:47 there'd be a groove put in it which you then folded together and then riveted the edges together basically to hold it together so the panel would come from the manufacturer pre-manufactured you just folded it up into this panel because the size of the panels
00:14:59 because the size of the panels you would have never moved them up the building if you didn't have them in flat pack
00:15:04 pack they would have been too large to carry on the mass climb so you literally took them up there built them in place bent them around and then riveted them to their rails where they needed to be i see yeah
00:15:16 so that's to create these c shapes the c-shaped channels on the building is that right yes they all just fold in and fold around and then your rails are up in the building straight up the
00:15:27 up in the building straight up the building you rivet them to the rails that holds them in place then yeah that's helpful
00:15:34 was that work done by reference to any drawings or any other installation guidance
00:15:40 guidance um it would have been done to a drawing definitely there'd been a drawing about for it somewhere yeah do you know whether any records were kept of the way in which those panels were bent and riveted
00:15:50 riveted not that i know to know you'd have to house carly for that one and then if we look at the next paragraph down on that page 21b you you go on you
00:16:03 21b you you go on you you're asked please explain the work involved in making info panels for back of crown panels on roof area please give a description of the scope of osborne berry's work in this respect and you answer osborne berry installed
00:16:15 and you answer osborne berry installed the top crown panels as specified by harley
00:16:18 harley however the building instructor did not like the gaps at the back of the panels where they came down to the parapet and therefore osborne berry were instructed by harley to infill the gaps
00:16:29 instructed by harley to infill the gaps with cladding panels now just to ask you a few things about that who was the building instructor that you're referring to there that would be the clerk of the works
00:16:42 that would be the clerk of the works right so was that john white john white and you have a clear recollection that it was john white do you i have a recollection it was john white and can you just help us as to exactly
00:16:54 and can you just help us as to exactly what he wasn't happy with about the way these panels having big gaps it aesthetically didn't look pretty and can you just help us where were those gaps if you were on the roof looking out yeah you could
00:17:06 on the roof looking out yeah you could see the gaps between the top panels and the concrete facade so he wanted the concrete facade filled up so that it covered the gap between the panel and the concrete facade
00:17:18 panel and the concrete facade so you couldn't see into the panel basically
00:17:22 basically i see so and how where were the where exactly were the gaps were they in each in each rivet in each corner around each frame of the panel it's hard to explain if you've got a
00:17:33 it's hard to explain if you've got a panel shaped like that there was a gap appeared like that around it and you wanted those gaps filled in basically so that you couldn't see into the back of the panel yeah
00:17:44 of the panel yeah and what what
00:17:49 were those panels in filled then with more acm
00:17:53 more acm yeah we're in filled with more acm as i remember yeah so more acm was applied to the arrangement to fill in the gaps at the top of the panels
00:18:03 panels where they tapered off at the that's correct that's correct
00:18:08 and who came up with that solution on site
00:18:12 site i cannot remember but i would think it's probably kevin lam right
00:18:20 do you know whether any other parties were made of that change other than harley and osborne berry do you know whether that solution was ever discussed with studio e i wouldn't know that no but i was i
00:18:32 i wouldn't know that no but i was i would be sure it was discussed with ryden's yeah okay and can you recall when this was going on on the project i can't approximately i mean it's towards the end of the
00:18:43 i mean it's towards the end of the project yeah getting very close to the project being finished basically right within the last six months of the project yeah so probably sometime in 2016 yes oh yes definitely yeah
00:18:55 definitely yeah thank you now turning to um the insulation were you aware of what the different types of insulation boards were that were being used between
00:19:06 boards were that were being used between levels 4 and 23 on the spandrels and the columns
00:19:11 columns no no did you know who had manufactured that insulation and what product it was i did know it was celatex yes how did you know it was celetex it was
00:19:23 how did you know it was celetex it was written on the boards
00:19:27 was was there a branding on all of the celetex boards we've been told by some witnesses that some of the celetex boards were unbranded could well be that doesn't surprise me that could well
00:19:38 that doesn't surprise me that could well be yeah
00:19:40 be yeah could well be is it common that sometimes that kind of boarding isn't branded yes i have seen it before
00:19:52 branded yes i have seen it before were you aware that another product was also used
00:19:55 also used um a kingspan k15 product i was and how did you when did you become aware of that can you help us when it arrived on site
00:20:06 you help us when it arrived on site yeah and i believe the reason that it was used was because celetex couldn't produce enough to keep us going so kingspan was bought in its place basically yeah
00:20:17 basically yeah and can you help us as to precisely where on the tower that kingspan product went
00:20:22 went from my memory i think most of it went on the north elevation right above the what i call the grid it's like a big metal deck fitted between the floor and the
00:20:34 fitted between the floor and the first floor above that i believe that's where the king's band was fitted was it ever fitted above level four
00:20:48 was it ever fitted above level four that i cannot remember can we just look at a photograph if we go to ryd3051704
00:21:02 if we go to ryd3051704 now this photograph it's not hugely clear but basically if we look at the third level above the mast climber we think we can see some
00:21:13 see some kingspan branding you're right you can yeah
00:21:16 yeah on the insulation so we can see where the white window infill panels are what's
00:21:23 what's above and below those there that's the acm panels isn't it that's the renault panel yeah but then we can see in a couple of locations
00:21:32 locations above that mass climber that the insulation has got and i think you can see it there's like a is it like a lion yes i think that's correct
00:21:40 correct and with kingspan across it i think you're right and we think this is either the east face or the west face because of the number of columns that we're seeing
00:21:52 the number of columns that we're seeing in the building can you take me down to the ground floor of the building again by any chance yeah we can pan out as far as this photograph goes yes if that's that'll do that is the east face of the
00:22:05 that'll do that is the east face of the building
00:22:06 building right thank you that's helpful
00:22:14 did you know at the time that celetex was a poly isocyanurate pir insulation board and kingspan was a phenolic insulation board i didn't no no
00:22:27 i didn't no no did you know that both of these products were combustible insulation boards at the time no
00:22:38 had you ever used um a product called celatex
00:22:42 celatex fr5000 before on other product projects do you ever come across that fr5000 i have a feeling we might have used it on commercial road right okay
00:22:55 right okay and what about k-15 had you ever used kingspan k15 on other high-rise buildings i've never used k15 anywhere before in my life this is the first time we use k15 right okay
00:23:11 and can you recall how long was it into the project that you were first asked to be
00:23:15 be installing the kingspan insulation instead of the celatex
00:23:24 probably late 2015 yeah early 2016. i would say late 2015 more lightly yeah and were there several batches of kingsman that were swapped in
00:23:36 batches of kingsman that were swapped in or only one knowledge i personally think there was only one load brought in okay
00:23:47 at any point on the project did you come to look at the celetex or kingspan brochures regarding guidance on installation not at all
00:24:01 were you aware that the celetex product you were installing was a new product called rs 5000 no no so you didn't know it was a new product at all not at all
00:24:13 product at all not at all no okay so i now want to move to cavity barriers and ask you some more detailed questions about the cavity barriers um if we can start by looking at page
00:24:24 um if we can start by looking at page seven of your first witness statement that's osb 6087 at page seven and i want to look at paragraph 11.
00:24:36 the question is asked what training did osborne berry give to those installing the facade and windows in particular with regard to fitting cavity barriers and you say this on-site training was
00:24:47 and you say this on-site training was provided to those who were employed to assist osborne berry in the installation process and then you say this osborne berry had no involvement in relation to the fitting of cavity
00:24:58 in relation to the fitting of cavity barriers that was a mistake by me i don't call them cavity barriers i call them fire breaks right i see and that was a total mistake by me
00:25:09 by me yeah so you agree that you were yes
00:25:16 i've always called them fire breaks always known them as fire breaks yeah okay
00:25:24 now if we can go to osborne barry's position statement and look at page 1. this is osb 7084 and i want to pick it up in paragraph 8 at the bottom of the page
00:25:42 at the bottom of the page and this position statement gives a summary of the installation process and goes through the stages and then if we go over onto page two
00:25:54 that little roman numeral nine
00:25:59 three up from the bottom we can see it says their vertical and horizontal and fire breaks were installed as per elevation drawing now where you're
00:26:10 elevation drawing now where you're referring there to fire breaks um is that what we know as cavity barriers that's what you know is cavity barriers yeah yes and just to be clear the reason why you don't describe them as cavity
00:26:21 you don't describe them as cavity barriers is that because you've always known them as fire breaks always known them as fire breaks yeah ever since i've done the job they've always been called fire breaks yeah what if you were doing fire stopping
00:26:31 stopping properly so called so far stopping to take a say a compartment floor internally out to a wall that would be a fully sealed fire system right i see whereas the cavity barriers
00:26:46 right i see whereas the cavity barriers have a gap between them with an intermission strip yeah to expand take up the gap yeah and you know that as fire breaks yes yes
00:26:57 now we saw previously that we looked at those minutes of that subcontractor meeting in april 2015 where it said that ben bailey of harley was to issue elevations showing the position of fire
00:27:08 elevations showing the position of fire breaks
00:27:11 let's just look at that for a moment so this is ryd3088923
00:27:23 so if we go within this to page three and look at item nine point zero one um here it says windows and fire breaks being fitted
00:27:34 being fitted to the north east and west elevations now do you think that's right that in april 2015 installation of fire breaks to the north
00:27:45 installation of fire breaks to the north east and west elevations had commenced i would think very much so
00:27:53 then looking back on page two and we saw this earlier item 6.03 sorry i think it must be on the next
00:28:04 sorry i think it must be on the next page yes sorry thank you page three we see there bb ben bailey to issue elevations showing positions of fire breaks on all elevations to daniel osgood can you help us as to why
00:28:19 daniel osgood can you help us as to why if the installation of the cavity berries had commenced why are we seeing only at this point that ben bailey is issuing elevation showing the positions of fire breaks on all elevations
00:28:31 breaks on all elevations i cannot answer that question yeah but i would say drawings were for fire breaks were well in advance of that because we'd done the sample panel way prior to that that's what i thought
00:28:42 way prior to that that's what i thought everything was working off or i was instructed that is how you you're going to proceed basically yeah and when you say we've done the sample panel well in advance of that can you explain what you're referring to there
00:28:53 there we did a panel on
00:28:57 north elevation 16th floor between 15 and 16 we actually did a mock-up panel we fitted a window into the actual flat yeah
00:29:07 yeah we fitted the insulation onto the wall we fitted the fire break on the wall for inspection by everybody due to what i was saying with regard to the epdm barrier yeah and can you help us as to when
00:29:21 yeah and can you help us as to when you did that mock-up
00:29:25 memory for me no yeah but my business partner would probably know that okay great we can ask him okay
00:29:36 so you already had drawings did you showing the positions of cavity barriers by this time yes and were those the red line they were the red line drawings you were
00:29:47 were the red line drawings you were talking about yes
00:29:56 now if we look back now to the schedule of quantities the bill of quantities that we looked at before osb seven zeros 51
00:30:07 and look at page two
00:30:11 under the heading zinc rain screen to columns at the top of that page
00:30:18 we can see there we've got vertical fire stops 362 meters do you see that one line up from the bottom
00:30:28 bottom and then a little bit further down the page under rain screen zinc rain screen to walls
00:30:34 to walls we have a reference to horizontal fire stops
00:30:38 stops do you see that just at the bottom of that page yeah and a quantity is given now what was your understanding of what these items were when you were pricing this up
00:30:48 this up the horizontal fire stops were the fire stops that had intermission strip on them which expanded
00:30:57 expanded the vertical fire stops sealed up to the back of the panel so there was no air gap
00:31:09 and did you understand that they were two
00:31:13 two different products as for different products the main material is the same but one has a
00:31:24 main material is the same but one has a intermission strip on it and one doesn't and one doesn't and did you understand that it was the horizontal vertical horizontal cavity barrier that had the intumescent strip
00:31:35 had the intumescent strip correct yeah and did you understand that vertical cavity barriers are solid blocks of inert material such as stone wool that sit in the in the vertical position
00:31:50 sorry what was your yes
00:31:56 now if we can just look at the nbs specification this is sea 50169
00:32:07 this is the architect nbs specification that was part of the employer's requirements for ryden and their work did you ever see this document or indeed any extracts from it do you think when
00:32:18 any extracts from it do you think when you were
00:32:18 you were on the project not at all no if we look at page
00:32:22 at page 246 within this document
00:32:27 here we can see that there's a provision for ventilated cavity barriers in this spec it said that the manufacturer has something called downer cladding systems and then we can
00:32:38 downer cladding systems and then we can see
00:32:39 see for the product reference there's um it says lambeth c w r s h 60 horizontal and then lambeth cw rs v60 vertical do you see that there i
00:32:54 do um and if we can turn then to the harley specification of products to be used on the refurbishment this is
00:33:08 har408991
00:33:13 so these are the harley specification notes that we now know were drawn up by kevin lamb and which set out in more detail the specific products that were to be used in the external wall
00:33:26 in the external wall did you ever see this set of notes on the project not as i can remember now okay
00:33:37 does that mean that the only formal ins information you had about the products which to be used came either from the drawings that you saw on site or the cost schedule the bill of
00:33:48 on site or the cost schedule the bill of quantities that we saw previously it would have come from the drawings i'd seen on site yeah so you'd look to those drawings to tell you what the products were were you yes you get
00:34:02 yes you get a little box in the top right hand corner
00:34:06 corner yeah telling you what products you were using basically right i see now we can see on the right hand side of this
00:34:14 this in the right hand column about halfway down for the refurb zones we've got fire breaks new build zones then fire
00:34:21 then fire fire breaks refurb zones and we can see that two products are specified horizontal cytoside arrives lametherm rh 25g 9030 ventilated brakes
00:34:34 25g 9030 ventilated brakes and then vertical side arrives lametherm rvg
00:34:37 rvg 9030 full fill non-ventilated brakes now so just to be clear did you appreciate at the time that the horizontal and vertical cavity barriers
00:34:49 horizontal and vertical cavity barriers were different products with different specifications i did and did you appreciate that the vertical were described as full fill non-ventilated brakes i did
00:35:01 full fill non-ventilated brakes i did and that they had different installation requirements i i was informed how to install them yes yeah
00:35:12 now if we can turn to sil 50230
00:35:24 this is some of the ciderise marketing material
00:35:27 material for those cavity barriers which was um this is actually from from october 2015 this particular piece of marketing material did you ever
00:35:38 piece of marketing material did you ever see this or anything similar at the time anything from cider eyes the manufacturer explaining how the cavity barriers were to be fitted no
00:35:50 and then if we can also pull up um sil 50227
00:36:04 again this is more manufacturers information including some installation guidance for cavity barriers for rain screen systems this time it's dated it's from november
00:36:15 this time it's dated it's from november 2013
00:36:17 2013 does do you remember seeing anything like that on the project not at all
00:36:24 did you ever ask to see any manufacturer's guidance or notes for the installation of the cavity bearings i did not
00:36:35 bearings i did not and why not because i'd done it on other jobs before and i'd seen information as i've gone along the line and been told different things of how to do it i just carried on assuming it was the same and looking at what i'm seeing here
00:36:48 same and looking at what i'm seeing here it is
00:36:49 it is no different to what was done on the tower
00:36:52 tower had you had experience of installing siderise cavity barriers before and not that i can remember not that i can remember
00:37:00 remember so did you not ever think it was important if you were installing a new cavity barrier product to check the manufacturer's instructions for how to install each product i do know but i didn't at
00:37:11 each product i do know but i didn't at the time okay thank you
00:37:16 now if we look at page two of this
00:37:20 guidance we can see there's a helpful explanation on the top right of this page about the difference between horizontal and vertical cavity barriers i just want
00:37:31 and vertical cavity barriers i just want to note this so it says on the right hand side at the very top side arrives cavity barriers for rain screen cladding horizontal incorporates a continuous bonded intumescent strip to the leading edge
00:37:43 intumescent strip to the leading edge and encapsulates in a weather resistant polymer film in the event of exposure to fire this expands and fully seals the design ventilation gap formed at the time of installation
00:37:54 formed at the time of installation between barrier and the rear of the cladding you see that i do and again was that your understanding of how the cavity barrier would operate in the event of exposure to fire
00:38:03 to fire that is correct and then underneath immediately underneath we've got side arise cavity barriers for rain screen cladding
00:38:10 cladding and it says vertical are specifically intended to fulfill the void as a fulfilled barrier system the integral intumescent strip is not required
00:38:20 required the front edge is finished as standard in a plain aluminium foil this product is available with a factory applied dbc pre-bonded to the surface
00:38:30 surface can you see that i do and again um did you understand at the time that the intention that harley's intention was to install
00:38:41 that harley's intention was to install full fill
00:38:41 full fill vertical cavity barriers with no intermediate strip i did
00:38:50 did you ever look at anything on the siderise website for example any videos or other explanations on their website about how to fit the cat the side arise cavity barriers
00:39:00 barriers correctly i did not if we can look at page six of this document
00:39:11 it has some installation recommendations there
00:39:14 there we can see at the top
00:39:18 and we can see that for the vertical cavity barrier in the second paragraph it says this cavity bar is fitted vertically under compression completely filling the
00:39:30 under compression completely filling the void
00:39:31 void the product is installed with the plain mineral fibre edge positioned against the structural wall can you see that there i can now can you help us
00:39:39 help us um were you aware at the time that the vertical
00:39:42 vertical cavity barrier had to be fitted under compression um with the system we were using to actually put it under total compression would have
00:39:53 it under total compression would have been an impossibility because of the hook on system the way the panel went on the panel would just move away from the barrier anyway yeah the barrier just had to be very
00:40:04 yeah the barrier just had to be very tight to the fire break that's all you could do basically right did you ever have any discussions with anyone on site about the fitting of vertical cavity barriers and whether or not
00:40:16 barriers and whether or not they could be fitted under compression or what was practicable on site no i did not did harley ever say to you well these barriers we were told from sideways they
00:40:28 barriers we were told from sideways they have to be fitted under compression we need to find a solution did anyone with from harley raise that with you
00:40:36 no if we just look at mr ben bailey's witness statement for a moment this is page nine uh this is h a r three zeros one zero zero
00:40:47 a r three zeros one zero zero six zero page nine i want to look at paragraph 27
00:40:59 and if we can look at the final sentence of paragraph 27 okay let's just pick it up a sentence before that he says um six lines up
00:41:12 um six lines up he says this due to the significant lean of the building cavity berries intended for the columns were ordered oversized after taff had taken on-site measurements which identified this issue
00:41:25 measurements which identified this issue it was decided that cavity barriers with the largest dimension should be ordered so they could then be measured using a panel template and trimmed to size on site in each location by osborne
00:41:36 size on site in each location by osborne berry and their installers now can you just help us um as to whether that was your understanding of what happened that was what happened basically and can you
00:41:47 was what happened basically and can you help us with with precisely what occurred then he says it was decided that cavity barriers with the largest dimension should be ordered what does that mean dimension in terms of width because
00:41:58 of width because because the columns moved up the building like for instance into a spiral yes the gap at the bottom was probably 280 mil from wall to face a
00:42:09 was probably 280 mil from wall to face a panel
00:42:10 panel and at the top was 150 mil from wall to face
00:42:13 face panel yeah so different depths were made not different widths just different depths yeah and they would be cut to suit to a template that would be hooked onto the rain screw rail system i see and then all of it
00:42:24 rail system i see and then all of it would be trimmed to that template basically
00:42:26 basically so does that mean you needed a thicker barrier in the vertical position as you went up the tower um it would have been an ideal way of doing it but the same thickness was ordered all the way up so it was it
00:42:38 ordered all the way up so it was it covered every eventuality and it was cut down basically by the fitters on site i see so does that mean that the lower levels the barrier would have been cut down because the gap was smaller exactly let's see but at the higher
00:42:49 exactly let's see but at the higher levels it would it would fit that so much yeah okay that's helpful um and the trimming to site was that
00:43:01 um and the trimming to site was that something that osborne berry would do trimming to site on site and would that be subject to instructions from harley or supervision from harley no
00:43:12 harley or supervision from harley no you just do that naturally yeah
00:43:18 but there was no reference back to the siderise installation guidance when you were doing that trimming yeah at the time did you generally understand
00:43:29 at the time did you generally understand that the purpose of cavity barriers within rain screen systems was to inhibit the passage of fire from window openings into cavities and then to inhibit the spread of fire within those cavities
00:43:42 within those cavities i i knew that you got complementalized it yeah but i didn't know that fire breaks had to go down the edges of windows okay or at the
00:43:54 the edges of windows okay or at the bottom of windows at the time
00:43:59 does that mean that you at the time understood that they were needed in the external wall to stop fire spreading up that external wall cavity yeah i did
00:44:15 and did you understand what the consequences might be of poorly fitting cavity barriers for example if there were gaps in the system i did and did you understand this might affect the performance of those barriers
00:44:27 affect the performance of those barriers in the event of fire i did did you take any steps to ensure that all
00:44:32 that all of the osborne berry fitters working on the grenfell project understood that i told them enough times yes
00:44:40 did you have to remind them sorry i reminded a few of them yes and what what did you say to them just make sure it's neat and tidy make
00:44:51 just make sure it's neat and tidy make sure it fits properly yeah but they were a good bunch of hitters basically
00:44:57 basically okay
00:45:02 now when mr bailey ben bailey gave um his oral evidence i don't think we need to pull this up this is at day 40 page 138 line 7. um he was asked whether he gave
00:45:13 line 7. um he was asked whether he gave any instructions or guidance to osborne berry
00:45:16 berry about the materials to be used or fire safety
00:45:19 safety and he said other than the cavity barriers being an important part of that i don't recall any specific conversations about topics now um so he seems to be indicating that
00:45:31 now um so he seems to be indicating that there might have been a conversation about cavity barriers being an important part of the system do you recall having that conversation i don't remember the conversation but with ben
00:45:40 ben it wouldn't surprise me if he said that because he is very very thorough on things like that yeah
00:45:50 did harley give you any guidance in respect of the cavity barrier installation in terms of fire safety no
00:46:04 did harley ever provide any specific instructions about which type of cavity barriers should be used in which location
00:46:12 we basically knew by what cavity barrows we had
00:46:16 we had what went where they were all kept separately this was for horizontal and this was for vertical they were stored in different places basically so nobody could make that mistake i see
00:46:29 so nobody could make that mistake i see now let's look at some pictures of the installation contained in dr barbara lane's phase 1 report if we can turn first to blas 608 page 48.
00:46:43 608 page 48. [Applause]
00:46:48 and if we can zoom in on that photograph so this is a siderise rh 25 cavity barrier and we can see that she's she's zoomed
00:47:01 and we can see that she's she's zoomed in on that part of the tape the the green tape on the side of the barrier and we can see that this is an rh cavity barrier horizontal cavity barrier
00:47:12 barrier horizontal cavity barrier installed in the vertical position do you agree i do and do you agree that that's not correct i do agree it's not correct can you explain how this might have happened
00:47:23 explain how this might have happened horizontal installed in the vertical position
00:47:26 position i can't answer that question it's it's bugged me for a long time the question about that because i'd looked at these things
00:47:32 things in various locations many times but i never ever saw that you can't help us as to why that wasn't picked up by osborne berry during its supervision and checking of its work
00:47:43 supervision and checking of its work and i'm afraid
00:47:48 and if you'd seen this would you have thought that that installation was acceptable and in accordance with harley's instructions no it would have been pulled out and redone did you ever see any instances of
00:48:00 did you ever see any instances of horizontal cavity barriers used in the vertical position when you were not at all on site not at all
00:48:07 all so you didn't tell anyone to pull it out and do we do never had this problem at all
00:48:13 all now when dr lane and her team went to visit the site after the fire they found in their inspections that there were no proper full fill vertical cavity barriers on
00:48:24 full fill vertical cavity barriers on site
00:48:26 site instead the vertical cavity barriers all appeared to be the rh 25 horizontal product intended for horizontal installation
00:48:38 can you help us as to why no full fill vertical barriers were found on site after the fire i can't because they would definitely
00:48:49 i can't because they would definitely that's something i know that they would definitely use to fulfill barrier because the depth of the barrier is much bigger than what the rh 25 system is
00:49:00 is it's a wider barrier
00:49:04 right the bre have also reported for the met police that they found the same thing
00:49:10 thing for the transcript that's at met3039807 at page 52 paragraph 73. um did you ever see
00:49:22 um did you ever see vertical bar cavity barriers properly so called i
00:49:26 called i fulfill barriers actually on site i did and i think you said you thought they were kept in a different they were kept in a different location yeah
00:49:37 so you can't help us as to why they don't seem to have been installed i can't
00:49:45 i'm shocked that they weren't installed we've looked at um some of the purchase orders
00:49:53 orders um and it does appear that the vertical products where ordered from side arrives and if we just look at har50484
00:50:05 and if we just look at har50484 we might need to go to the native version of this
00:50:21 can we can we get the native version up
00:50:46 no okay the native version does clearly show you can take it from me that this harley purchase order dated the 6th of october 2015 shows rvg vertical cavity barriers being
00:50:59 shows rvg vertical cavity barriers being in the purchase order from siderise so they do appear to have been ordered but you can't help us as to why we can't find those products on the tower that as far as i'm aware
00:51:12 on the tower that as far as i'm aware they were on the tower because i fitted some of them myself i see and i know i know they were on site because i unloaded them off the lorry
00:51:20 lorry yeah okay
00:51:23 yeah okay now going back to the photo we were looking at this is blas 608 at page 48 we can see that here we've also got the
00:51:35 we can see that here we've also got the intumescent strip facing into the building that's right isn't it correct yes because the intermediate strip is down the side where the green tape is that's correct so is it right that this
00:51:46 that's correct so is it right that this installation is also wrong in another respect not only has it been used in the wrong orientation but whoever's installing it has also put the intermediate strip on the inside of the building that is correct
00:52:00 inside of the building that is correct and again can you help us as to how that might have occurred i can't
00:52:06 to your knowledge we're installers given clear guidance about where the intermittent strip was located and how to position the barrier so that it faced outwards and into the cavity most definitely
00:52:18 into the cavity most definitely and did you ever see this on site no as you've probably heard from bj it's very hard to see that once the insulation has gone on the column holding the fire break in place
00:52:30 column holding the fire break in place because it would be covered over by 100 ml of insulation yeah i see and that would hide it from your view
00:52:41 your view and when you say heard from bj who do you mean by bj ben and bailey then bailey i see and is that because in practice on the same day that you would install this
00:52:53 same day that you would install this cavity barrier the insulation would be provided applied over the top correct otherwise the cavity barriers a wind would get up and just blow them straight off the building instantly yeah the cavity barriers have to go on
00:53:05 cavity barriers have to go on then the insulation up alongside them to hold them in place so does that mean that for each cavity barrier there would only be a small window of time to notice for someone to notice that that was in the wrong position or the
00:53:17 that was in the wrong position or the wrong orientation exactly exactly
00:53:23 now did you understand at the time of the install that the horizontal cavity barriers must fit tightly and precisely at their edges in order for them to be effective in a fire i did
00:53:35 fire i did can we look at another one of dr lane's photos this is blas
00:53:41 six zeros eight at 45.
00:53:53 so this is figure 8.49 of her phase one report
00:53:57 report and what we can see here she's pulled off a section of cavity barrier and she's highlighting that it's got very roughly cut edges do you see that i do
00:54:08 and then if we go over the page from 45 to 46
00:54:14 to 46 and to figure 8.50 yep hear what she's giving perhaps if we go
00:54:21 go to the top photo first and zoom in on that
00:54:29 she's explained that there's poorly fitting
00:54:32 fitting edges of those cavity barriers both of the back edge and the side edges do you agree i would agree and also that the intermediate strip on the left
00:54:43 the intermediate strip on the left top left-hand side has started to come away from the cavity barrier i can see that as well where the the one of the rails has cut into it again would you agree that
00:54:55 cut into it again would you agree that both of those are examples of poor workmanship most definitely did you ever see similar workmanship on site not at all and had you seen it what would you have done
00:55:05 done i would have ripped it off and redone it
00:55:12 probably at the time i'd have got the fitters who did it to rip it off and redo it
00:55:19 and then if we look at the photograph underneath
00:55:26 again we can see she's highlighted a poorly fitting join between the two cavity barriers in this location
00:55:35 location we can see this is on the columns because we can see the the little indentations into the concrete at the bottom so she's highlighting a poorly fitting join but she's also highlighting look that there
00:55:46 she's also highlighting look that there we've got the intermission edge facing into the other cavity barrier i have noticed that you see that yes again would you agree that these are examples of poor workmanship that's not good
00:55:59 and had you seen that kind of installation that would have been taken out and redone
00:56:05 and then if we can go to another photograph on page 44 say it's same staying with this document figure 8.48
00:56:17 figure 8.48 so at the bottom of that page
00:56:22 here we can see the the top we're looking down at the top of the cavity barrier and we can see some one panel of insulation on the top so mother's been pulled off yeah and can
00:56:33 so mother's been pulled off yeah and can you see she's highlighted there in the middle label a break in the cavity barrier at the location of the cladding rails i can
00:56:42 and so what we see is that the horizontal cavity barrier was regularly interrupted over the length of the spandrel on every level by those rails correct now did you ever notice that on
00:56:54 correct now did you ever notice that on site
00:56:55 site yes that's the only way you would have got the rails on yeah to cut into the cavity barrier did you ever discuss with anybody whether that might compromise the operation of the cavity barriers in that
00:57:06 operation of the cavity barriers in that location
00:57:07 location and therefore need some kind of remedial solution not that i can remember
00:57:15 i remember asking somebody about it and was told you've got to cut into it to put them on and that's all i can remember
00:57:20 remember yeah is it your evidence therefore that that was how it was designed to be not and this isn't an example of poor workmanship that's how it was designed to be
00:57:30 to be yeah that's the only way you get the cladding rail down yeah can we look at another document now i referred earlier to the fact there was a bre
00:57:40 a bre investigation after the fire for the met police i just want to look at one of their reports this is
00:57:52 met3039807 so this is a bre report it's dated the 20th of february 2019 and essentially it sets out their findings from their site investigation
00:58:04 findings from their site investigation work at the tower and if we go within it to page 55
00:58:13 and if we look at top top figure first figure 37 can you see there that we've got the cavity barrier cut around
00:58:25 cavity barrier cut around the rayna bond panel panel on the column again did you see instances of that on site
00:58:33 site um that picture's not telling the full tail there should be a cladding rail going down inside there right i see because if you see and you
00:58:44 right i see because if you see and you notice at the top there's a bracket on the top underneath the window yes now with the center of that bracket would be a cladding rail which would shoot straight down that gap yeah that's why that gap's cut there i see
00:58:56 see so what might have happened is someone's removed the cladding rail and that's the gap that's created exactly fair enough i understand um and then look at figure 38 below
00:59:10 can you see there what they're highlighting next to the cladding rail is is a gap where the cavity barrier doesn't go right up to the cap would you
00:59:21 doesn't go right up to the cap would you accept that that's an example of a workmanship workmanship yes
00:59:31 so you agree that's paul works that should have been tighter that should have been touching the aluminium
00:59:38 of the channel that holds the panel yeah so it should have been tightly fitted now mr ben bailey in his witness
00:59:50 now mr ben bailey in his witness statement
00:59:51 statement refers to various images from dr lane's report her phase one report and his evidence was that he was very shocked when he saw dr lane's photographs for the transcript that's at paragraph
01:00:03 for the transcript that's at paragraph 32 of har3010060 at page 10.
01:00:12 do you agree that the photographs we've seen from dr lane's report are shocking i do and that that work was unacceptable it certainly was and it was obviously work not carried out with reasonable
01:00:23 work not carried out with reasonable skill and care that's correct mr bailey also says he says through observations on site or when i conducted my text i never saw a workmanship like this
01:00:34 never saw a workmanship like this if i had i would have immediately raised this with taff and or bears of osborne berry to rectify can you help us as to why mr ben bailey says he didn't see cavity barriers installed in the manner
01:00:46 cavity barriers installed in the manner we've just discussed it's exactly the same as i never saw them you couldn't see everything on the building before it was covered basically it would even it would even be hard for building control
01:00:58 building control or clock of the works to see some of these things because they were being covered up so quickly with insulation yeah yeah did it never occur to anybody
01:01:09 yeah yeah did it never occur to anybody that
01:01:10 that it might be important to perhaps pause the work
01:01:14 the work or or have some kind of system in place for checking those cavity barriers before the insulation went on it would um
01:01:26 if this was done off a scaffold it would be a far easier project to manage yeah because you could get to every level whenever you wanted to it would also be protected from the
01:01:38 it would also be protected from the weather
01:01:39 weather because the actual scaffold would be cheated over in some respect or form on a mass climber it takes you from bottom and building the top of the building 20 minutes to
01:01:51 the top of the building 20 minutes to get up and 20 minutes to come down yeah you just couldn't be in every place you couldn't keep an eye on everything that was going on it would be an impossibility you know even if you had somebody down
01:02:02 you know even if you had somebody down on the floor with binoculars you'd never see all of it yeah just it would have been better done as i say off the scale or like you said stop the stop the job and check everything as it goes on the
01:02:13 and check everything as it goes on the building
01:02:14 building yeah the use of mass climbers was was that common practice in in your experience of installing these facades or would a scaffold have been the the norm no it is common practice to
01:02:28 the the norm no it is common practice to use a mass climber these mass climbers to me were unusual that there was eight of them normally there would have only been four right which is also a lot easier to
01:02:39 right which is also a lot easier to keep the building under control so you did have two mass climbers per face per face yeah
01:02:54 cavity barriers around the windows
01:02:59 at the time you were working on the grenfell project where you were aware that there was extensive industry guidance
01:03:04 guidance including in something called approved document b on fire safety which indicated that cavity barriers had to be installed around window openings in order to comply with the building regulations i was not aware of this now
01:03:17 i was not aware of this now had you ever heard of a pre-document be on fire safety i haven't had you ever looked at something called diagram 33 out of that not at all had you ever
01:03:29 not at all had you ever installed cavity barriers around window openings on other buildings that you'd worked on not that i can remember so in other rain screen systems that you
01:03:40 so in other rain screen systems that you installed
01:03:41 installed is it your evidence that in none of those projects were you installing cavity barriers around the windows correct
01:03:50 did you notice did it strike you at the time as
01:03:53 time as as something that was noteworthy that there were no cavity barriers around the windows at the grenfell project not at all and why can you help us as to why that
01:04:04 and why can you help us as to why that wouldn't have been something that stuck out for you um because of the carpet mentalizing i assume that cavity barriers weren't required around window frames
01:04:16 required around window frames is that because you could see there was a system of putting a square a square around around a flat basically i see did you ever have any any conversations with anybody on the
01:04:28 any conversations with anybody on the grenfell project about the lack of cavity barriers around windows i did not
01:04:43 so if we can just look at mr gary martin's evidence this is one of the ryden employees um we can go to the transcript on day 30 and i want to look at page 19.
01:05:04 and if we pick it up at line two he's asked were you aware that cavity bearers had to be provided to close the edges of cavities including around openings and then he says yes but if
01:05:15 openings and then he says yes but if you're talking about windows specifically there was a barrier a foil and tape barrier placed around the whole window opening and when i thought about it it should be a fire barrier or shouldn't be a fire
01:05:27 a fire barrier or shouldn't be a fire barrier
01:05:28 barrier i checked with the drawings and asked and i can't remember who i asked but the comment back was that there was vertical and horizontal fire is continuing the compartment out through to the exterior cladding
01:05:39 through to the exterior cladding i say i see and then the question so they weren't required around the window were you specifically told that that they weren't required yes around the window yeah can you
01:05:51 yes around the window yeah can you recall who might have told you that i don't recall but it prompted me to look at the drawings and there was nothing on the drawings to suggest they should be and if we can keep going over the page do you think it was somebody at ryden
01:06:03 do you think it was somebody at ryden that you would have spoken to i honestly can't remember is it possible that you spoke to someone outside ryden about that question it would have been three people probably taff from harley's
01:06:14 taff from harley's it would have been probably dave hughes it could have been jason north or it would have been the clerk of works it would have been one of those people now can you help us as to whether you might have ever had any conversations with gary martin
01:06:27 conversations with gary martin about cavity barriers whether they were required around windows whether it was sufficient to have them around the compartment as you've just referred to can you recall i had not had did not
01:06:39 can you recall i had not had did not have a conversation as i can remember with mr martin
01:06:44 you never had a conversation in regards with cavity barriers i see
01:06:50 [Applause]
01:07:00 now i just want to ask you about the positioning of cavity barriers
01:07:06 um and the how you measured where they should be
01:07:10 should be and i want to start by just looking at something in ben bailey's evidence if we look at day 40 page 187
01:07:25 and if we go to lines 22 and following at the bottom of that page he's asked the question did you ever measure the position of the cavity barriers as installed
01:07:36 barriers as installed so far as you did inspect them against the drawings to make sure that the as installed distances above the windows complied with the drawings if we go over the page
01:07:49 and then he says answer i'm unsure of a specific time that they were measured and then he said the the question i'm not sure i understand that answer and he gives the answer back let me ask
01:08:00 and he gives the answer back let me ask the question again during any of your inspections of the work or workmanship of the installation of the facade did you ever measure the position of the horizontal cavity barriers above the windows as installed by osborne berry
01:08:11 windows as installed by osborne berry against the drawings that you had i don't recall now can you help us as to whether you actually were measuring specifically
01:08:23 you actually were measuring specifically where the camera the horizontal cavity barriers were to go above the window we made we made a timber block that fitted onto the head angle of the window below
01:08:35 head angle of the window below yep and that was the position that the cavalry barriers went off the sample panel yeah on the 16th floor so they were all set up the same as what that
01:08:44 that that template panel was because that template panel was what everything worked off basically and was it during the time you were working on that template panel that you identified the fact that you didn't want to cut into the edps
01:08:56 you didn't want to cut into the edps exactly exactly that template panel was done so the architects the main contractor ryden's harley everybody could come and look at it and say they agreed to where everything was
01:09:07 say they agreed to where everything was before we started work fit in the fire breaks and that's therefore that template panel showed the cavity barrier higher than had been on the harley drawing it did it did and if you look back in
01:09:21 it did and if you look back in the paperwork from obi to harley we actually charge somewhere for doing that template sample panel
01:09:29 panel right so you will have a date of exactly when that was actually done that's helpful thank you let's just have a look at
01:09:35 a look at um a photograph on this this is
01:09:46 har401524 and so here we can see
01:09:52 is it right that what we can see horizontally are cavity barriers correct going through the insulation with the rainer bomb panels next to them that are labeled correct and so
01:10:05 that are labeled correct and so in in these photographs we get a sense i think is that right of how high above the windows those cavity barriers were would you agree i do yeah and so we can see there that
01:10:18 i do yeah and so we can see there that they are further away from the windows than
01:10:20 than allowed for in the drawings that's
01:10:28 correct yeah thank you now just before leaving cavity barriers um i want to turn to another email this is cel408582
01:10:45 another email this is cel408582 [Applause]
01:10:49 and
01:10:53 i want to start by looking at the bottom email on the first page
01:11:00 which is an email from mr anchor jones this is the 12th of july 2013 and it's about a different project it's the isis house project and the subject of the email is isis
01:11:11 and the subject of the email is isis house fire break visit and it's from mr anchoral jones to jonathan room and at this point he was working at a company called hilti
01:11:22 company called hilti um and mr angle jones writes and you can see at the bottom of that page he says john
01:11:27 john taff bracket's mark osborne and if we can read onto the top of the next page needs some help on site with the installation of fire breaks to make sure it's being done right and discuss and resolve any problems he
01:11:39 and discuss and resolve any problems he may be having thanks kind regards daniel now do you recall speaking to mr room or anyone else about the installation of
01:11:50 anyone else about the installation of fire breaks at isis house
01:11:58 off the top of my head no okay but it wouldn't surprise me because that was a curtain wall system yes with very very heavy panels um i can't remember it off the top of my
01:12:12 um i can't remember it off the top of my head no
01:12:12 head no okay
01:12:16 so you can't help us as to what assistance you might have got in terms of
01:12:20 of not at all installation of fire breaks not at all
01:12:25 and do you know why mr ankle james might have been contacting mr room for such guidance while he was working at hilti
01:12:33 i don't that i can't answer did you know of an individual called jonathan room that name that's the name that doesn't ring a bell okay
01:12:46 fine um the installation of the windows i want to ask you a few questions about those
01:12:52 those mr chairman this is a another topic it will probably take me more than five minutes so i'm happy to break now if that's easier or i'm happy to carry on a break after this topic
01:13:03 this topic how much how much longer do you think you're going to want in general in general yes probably between half an hour and 40 minutes so um well we are going to break now or
01:13:14 so um well we are going to break now or after this topic don't we how long did you say five minutes yeah it's i mean it's four pages of notes so it's more than a few minutes all right should we should we break now yeah right um this transform we're going
01:13:26 yeah right um this transform we're going to have a
01:13:27 to have a breakdown middle of the afternoon and we'll come back and resume the hufflepuff three please and um please don't talk to anyone that's fine while they're out of the room about your evidence or anything
01:13:39 room about your evidence or anything relating to it okay right would you like to give the ushers please
01:13:52 right thank you first three please
01:30:46 yes would you ask mr osborne to come back in please
01:31:05 all right mr osborne i'm fine thank you keep going thank you yes thank you this was cringe yes there's a few questions now about the windows and i want to look at a couple of drawings to start with if we can look at first of all sea four
01:31:17 if we can look at first of all sea four zeroes
01:31:19 zeroes 3040 or page seven
01:31:33 so this is a drawing um that was stamped by studio a studio e architect says category a conforms to design and tent
01:31:45 conforms to design and tent uh we can see there that was added on the 16th
01:31:49 the 16th of january 2015 and it's a window jam detailed drawing do you see that i do and it's looking at where the windows meet the columns
01:32:01 windows meet the columns um and what i want to do is then show that and we can see this drawing is marked approved for construction on the bottom right and if we can show side by side with
01:32:12 and if we can show side by side with that drawing a different sorry a similar drawing this is har30s 10440
01:32:28 and what we're getting on the right hand side
01:32:33 side is effectively the the same basic drawing
01:32:37 drawing we don't have a studio e stamp on this but there are some key changes as between the two perhaps we can then pull up the the second drawing make that big on the page
01:32:48 second drawing make that big on the page and just look at that
01:32:53 they both have the same drawing number but if we can zoom in to this drawing
01:33:01 when mr lam gave his evidence the inquiry at paragraph 31 of his witness statement he explained that there were some differences between the stamped version the studio e-stamp
01:33:13 stamped version the studio e-stamp version and this version the stamped version had shown local fixing straps that were to be installed behind the window frame and this this was removed on this
01:33:25 and this this was removed on this unstamped drawing in order to reflect things as they had been built and then this unstamped drawing doesn't show local fixing straps but instead a layer of adhesive foam
01:33:37 layer of adhesive foam in the cavity between the window frame and the edpm membrane so if we look right in the center we see a gray area with a label adhesive foam and that's immediately in
01:33:49 adhesive foam and that's immediately in front
01:33:49 front of the edpm membrane which i think is shown with a black dotted line do you agree
01:33:56 agree i do and we just wanted to ask you a little bit about this this window detailing can you tell us was it the first version of the drawing or this version of the drawing with adhesive
01:34:07 version of the drawing with adhesive foam that was actually built on site it was this version of the drawing yeah but i don't remember putting adhesive foam right down the joint that
01:34:19 adhesive foam right down the joint that was my next question so whether or not it was osborne berry that installed the layer of foam in the cavity
01:34:26 cavity between the window frame and the edpm membrane can you help us on that no it definitely wasn't nothing and barry as far as i'm aware no okay
01:34:39 now if we look at page nine of your second witness statement this is osb six zeros 90 page nine and look at paragraph 16 d in the middle of that page
01:34:53 d in the middle of that page you're asked describe precisely where fire framing was applied by osborne berry and you say osborne berry applied fire foam to the exterior window frame and
01:35:04 and insulation can you help us there as to where exactly fire foam was applied in relation to the windows insulation or other parts of the external facade of the building
01:35:18 external facade of the building in respect to fire foam it was put in to hold the windows in place because they weren't actually screwed in right the windows fitted on a double
01:35:29 right the windows fitted on a double angle system where the top bead was 25 mil deep on the bottom of the angle and the bottom bead was
01:35:38 bead was 15 mil deep so you lifted it up and dropped it down and packed it to suit and fire foam was used all around the perimeter of that to hold the window to the bead
01:35:46 the bead okay so you're talking about fire foam around the edge of that wheel the top and the bottom yeah not the jams you're not talking about down the jambs okay that's really helpful um who asked
01:35:57 okay that's really helpful um who asked osborne berry to apply that foam around the window frame that would be ray from harley i believe right do you know whether that instruction was reflected in any of the
01:36:08 instruction was reflected in any of the drawings
01:36:10 drawings i cannot remember can you recall whether anyone discussed the fire performance of that foam not with me now okay all i can tell you is it definitely
01:36:21 okay all i can tell you is it definitely had fire foam written on the can now with reference back to the drawings we were looking at in that jam position because the windows were positioned the
01:36:32 because the windows were positioned the new windows outside and forward of the original concrete line of the building it's right isn't it that there was a gap down the side of the windows that's correct which varied in its dimensions is that right that's
01:36:44 in its dimensions is that right that's correct
01:36:45 correct the inquiry experts have put that as between 35 and 90 millimeters that gap um sorry i beg your pardon in the harley drawings it's marked as between 35 and
01:36:57 drawings it's marked as between 35 and 90 millimeters but dr lane measured that gap as between 30 and 120 millimeters there's a bigger gap would you agree with that i would agree with dr lane 100 yeah um
01:37:11 yeah um did you ever consider given that gap whether there ought to be some form of fire barrier at the window jams and in particular between the edpm membrane and the insulation in the
01:37:22 membrane and the insulation in the column cavity well i would have thought plasterboard would have been put on the inside to stop the fire spread right i see so your expectation was it that there would be a plasterboard lining on the
01:37:34 lining on the window in interior reveals that's correct yeah that's helpful well we're going to be exploring that with mr dixon tomorrow um
01:37:45 dixon tomorrow um but you never is it right you never had any discussions about the vulnerability that was created by that gap
01:37:53 that gap not at all no
01:37:57 [Applause]
01:38:01 so supervision and training now i want to ask you some questions about the supervision of fitters um and it's right isn't it that osborne berry used self-employed fitters throughout the installation process
01:38:14 throughout the installation process correct
01:38:17 correct now we saw from the method statement let's just pull that back up this is har3010913
01:38:32 this is the method statement which i think you said you didn't look at at the time
01:38:36 time or don't remember considering we know you're described as the site foreman was that throughout the installation works you were the site foreman yes i got that task i'm afraid
01:38:48 i got that task i'm afraid and does that mean that you undertook the bulk bulk of the supervision of osborne berry's fitters no graham and i both right looked after the job
01:38:58 the job and how did you divide that between you basically whichever face we were working on we'd do the one to the opposite side of us
01:39:05 of us so we'd look after two faces so if you're working on the weight west you'd look out to the south if you're working on the north you'd look out to the east right various as you went around the building now on page three of this
01:39:16 building now on page three of this document in the very last paragraph if we can go to that it says um all operatives should read and understand the method statement and risk assessment before carrying out the works
01:39:27 works if an operative is unsure of the requirements then they should ask their line manager or site manager now i appreciate you so you didn't see this particular method statement but did osborne berry provide its operatives
01:39:39 did osborne berry provide its operatives with
01:39:41 with the method statements that were given to them by harley on the job i don't think we actually gave them a method statement we just told them how we'd want it done from the method statement i see did any fitters ever say to you that
01:39:53 did any fitters ever say to you that they were unsure about how to fit any part of the cladding system um not that i can remember but there again most of them work with me for quite a while before they went on to do it on their own
01:40:04 to do it on their own right so they'd already had a fairly good briefing into how to do it and were you satisfied that all the laborers were able to fully understand the work that had been tasked to them
01:40:15 the work that had been tasked to them yes did these fitters have access to members of harley or ryden in order to receive any assistance and advice if needed if they needed to yes both harley and ryden they're going to
01:40:26 both harley and ryden they're going to spoke with them yeah
01:40:31 and then a page seven of your first witness statement for the for the transcript this is paragraph 11 you say that on-site training was provided to those who were employed to assist osborne berry in the
01:40:42 employed to assist osborne berry in the installation process can you help us as to what type of on-site training was provided to those who were involved basically i just showed them how to do it so you would physically do it and make one physically
01:40:54 physically do it and make one physically and do the actual job that they were meant to do and stay with them for a while until they got used to it so they'd probably work on the same mass climber as me for a week or so yeah one one working to the left one
01:41:07 yeah one one working to the left one working to the right so they just follow what i was doing basically yeah and would they be provided with any separate information about how to do it such as from the drawings or any others would be available if they wanted them yes
01:41:19 yes do you think the fitters would have referred back to the drawings or is that unlikely
01:41:23 unlikely i think some of them referred back to the drawings right and can you tell us how many fitters did you have
01:41:30 you have a maximum number right at the end 14 14 yeah and did they build did the numbers build up over a period of time they did yes they did we started off with three doing
01:41:42 they did we started off with three doing the measurement work then it went to two doing all the drilling and then it just built up from there to six to eight and then at the end it built up to 14 basically
01:41:51 basically thank you
01:41:56 now within this method statement on page one
01:42:00 one um if we look in the third paragraph and the second sentence it says that all operatives undertaking manual work will hold a relevant cscs card we'll
01:42:12 will hold a relevant cscs card we'll come to that in a moment and then they say harley will ensure that regular toolbox talks are carried out with training provided where necessary
01:42:21 necessary were you ever aware of something called toolbox talks being carried out i was not aware of any toolbox talks on the job now so you don't think any fitters did have the benefit of toolbox talks not that i
01:42:32 the benefit of toolbox talks not that i can remember
01:42:37 and the reference there to they're holding a valid csc card can you help us as to what that was referring to that's the card that we allows us to work on the building site
01:42:48 allows us to work on the building site in england basically yeah and if you need references to the cards i believe ryden's would have that right yeah now turning to page six of your second witness statement
01:43:00 your second witness statement um if we look at that this is osb six zeros 90
01:43:05 zeros 90 at page six and then at the very bottom of the page you say it was you and mr berry who supervised the installation
01:43:17 supervised the installation and then over the page if we go over the page
01:43:21 page it says how is this supervision conduct and it just says by verbal communications on site and you've said thereafter that osborne berry did not keep any written documentation of the supervision
01:43:32 documentation of the supervision however osborne berry reported to harley by verbal communications the progress of the refurbishment now just pausing there were these fitters supervised by osborne berry on a
01:43:44 fitters supervised by osborne berry on a daily basis um yes and no if they had problems they'd phone us up and ask us to come and have a look but we weren't with them all the time
01:43:56 we weren't with them all the time because obviously eight mass climbers there is a lot of places on the building so
01:44:00 so not on a daily basis no how frequently were you
01:44:04 were you or mr berry on site during the period of the works me the whole job from start to finish mr berry
01:44:13 i would say between half and three quarters of the job were any records kept of the the supervision and the results of that supervision i'm afraid not what about photographs
01:44:25 i'm afraid not what about photographs would you accept that it would be common practice good practice for an installer to take photographs of the installation as it progressed in particular so that you could show
01:44:37 in particular so that you could show that to anybody who was needing to see what was underneath for example the insulation in hindsight now yes and i take so many photographs my phone can't keep up with them
01:44:49 them that is in hindsight of grenfell tower [Music]
01:44:52 [Music] does that mean that at the time of the grenfell project you weren't taking photographs i wasn't very well up with that i i believe my business partner might be able to supply you some photographs that he took on his phone or were passed
01:45:04 that he took on his phone or were passed to ryden's but i can't verify that i see but you didn't have at the time a formal system of regularly taking photographs so you could hand those over to relevant
01:45:15 so you could hand those over to relevant inspectors including building control inspectors
01:45:23 were you satisfied that a consistent approach was taken to supervision on the project
01:45:28 project i was yes
01:45:31 now if we look at page seven of your first witness statement osb6087 page seven you say it paragraph 12
01:45:41 12 you say there so you're asked to what extent did osborne bury supervise the work of those installing and you say this was done to the best of our abilities but with eight mass climbers working on this process it was not possible to watch
01:45:52 not possible to watch check every individual item installed by the people we were employed to assist us so um can you help us as to how much of the
01:46:02 the work of the individual installers would probably not be checked on site i mean how frequently would you and mr berry go up on the mass climbers and check an
01:46:13 go up on the mass climbers and check an indoor vigil fitters work um it's hard to say
01:46:23 some fitters would get checked more than others but some fitters probably wouldn't get checked for a week on basically because we knew them and trusted them basically i see
01:46:35 i see the ones i checked most of all were the ones we had from agencies yes we used agency fitters and i wasn't sure of those so they got more checks than our regular fitters that had worked on
01:46:46 our regular fitters that had worked on little venice with us and commercial road
01:46:49 road and on the job i think you've just explained that there were perhaps up to 14
01:46:52 14 fitters by the end what proportion of those were agency versus your regular fitters
01:46:58 fitters um
01:47:02 i think there was three teams of agency fitters yeah that's be fitter and mate basically right yeah
01:47:14 now if we can look at a document
01:47:20 har3011476
01:47:27 this is a document authored by harley
01:47:34 and appears to be a rescue plan to be communicated in the form of a toolbox talk by the site manager or london
01:47:42 london hoist contract supervisor do you see that there i do so to invent the event of a machine breaking down at high or any injury follow the following rescue plan and you are there as the site manager
01:47:53 are there as the site manager precisely i've just i've just been promoted
01:47:58 that changed the suit to people i think i see
01:48:01 i see so did you ever think of yourself as the site manager not at all no can you explain as to why this says you were the site manager i have not got a clue
01:48:16 but then in practice did you consider that you and mr berry were there at least in part to supervise the work and inspect the work of the fitters to make sure it had been done correctly
01:48:27 done correctly we were there to make sure they did the good quality of work yes
01:48:34 in mr ben bailey's witness statement he says at paragraph 13 for the transcript that's har3010060 at page five
01:48:44 page five he says that he says i believe that taff and bears were also inspecting the work as i remember asking them at various points and they would confirm that they were do you agree with that that you would
01:48:55 would you did confirm to mr bailey that you were inspecting the work yeah
01:49:05 do you agree and was this your understanding at the time that harley was relying on osborne berry to inspect and check the work carried out by the fitters
01:49:17 not to inspect it to make sure it was done to a standard right but not to fully inspect the work now
01:49:26 and mr osgood when he gave evidence this for the transcript this was at day 30 page 132
01:49:34 page 132 line 12. he was asked whether harley was inspecting the work and whether osborne berry were checking their own work and he replied yes absolutely we wouldn't inspect until they had done that
01:49:45 they had done that and he was asked who was doing that and he said taff being the lead fixer again would you agree with that that you were inspecting before mr osgood i i made sure i went around to
01:49:57 mr osgood i i made sure i went around to make sure everything was sealed and properly done before he looked at it yes but most of it was just a visual check
01:50:07 later on in that transcript at page 142 line 15 mr oscar was asked what checks he actually carried out and he answered again we had a specification and we went through that both myself taff and we checked
01:50:19 both myself taff and we checked everything as far as i am aware was it your practice when you were checking what your fitters had done to go back to the specification and the drawings and to check it
01:50:30 drawings and to check it not that i'm aware of no so what were you inspecting for or checking for i just made made sure everything looked neat and tidy basically and that everything was uniform yeah
01:50:48 in the position statement we looked at it earlier your osborne barry's position statement
01:50:52 statement you'd set out 11 different stages of the installation process can you help us as to whether osborne berry would inspect the work carried out by the fitters at each of those 11 stages
01:51:06 those 11 stages do you want to have a look at that it's osb 7084
01:51:11 osb 7084 and it's paragraph eight and it goes from pages one through to page two
01:51:17 [Applause] so at the bottom of that page there's a summary of the installation process
01:51:26 and then the different stages are set out and it goes on to page two
01:51:32 can you help us as to whether there would have been a check by osborne berry at each of those stages is that how it was structured
01:51:47 there would definitely be one for the shelf angles on the epdm and the windows
01:51:56 and that would probably entail the brackets been on at the same time but would there be some of these stages where you wouldn't check at the end of the day
01:52:05 the day demos definitely would you wouldn't have checked every single thing okay most of the holes that you've got down there vertical concrete columns most of the drilling that was pre-checked and
01:52:16 pre-checked and it was checked by an outside company to make sure that the pull-out tests were correct and up to standard basically yeah
01:52:29 now i want to ask you some questions about
01:52:32 about sorry just before i do that let me leave this topic did you have any feedback mechanisms where you had given feedback to a fitter so you weren't happy with something did you have an informal mechanism in place
01:52:44 informal mechanism in place to make sure any workmanship issues identified were remedied and not repeated
01:52:48 repeated i did and i as i said earlier i'd go and check that particular fitter more than i checked any other fitters basically i see so if you are giving feedback and you weren't happy with the work you would just increase the frequency
01:53:00 you would just increase the frequency with which the work was checked checked would you ever formally record in a diary or a document i probably did in my diary i see okay now inspections by others now
01:53:14 now inspections by others now and starting with harley um paragraph four of mr ben bailey's witness statement if we just bring this up this is har three zeros one zero zero
01:53:26 har three zeros one zero zero six o at page four
01:53:38 and i want to look at the very top of that page it's within paragraph 11. and
01:53:44 11. and he says this i never spoke with the fixed installers directly about work issues but would regularly speak regularly with taf and bears about all elements of the installation installation including cavity barriers
01:53:56 installation including cavity barriers i would ask them if they were happy with the installation and how it was coming along
01:54:01 along they always reported back to me that everything was okay save for the usual day-to-day site issues none of which related to fire safety do you see that there i do now do you agree
01:54:11 agree with what ben bailey said there about first of all that he would speak regularly with you about all elements including the cavity barriers he would speak about various things at
01:54:22 he would speak about various things at different times he arrived i can't remember if it was specifically character barriers whether he spoke to the fixers or not i couldn't answer that question i don't know
01:54:31 know yeah um but he would ask us how we were progressing yes yeah later in that paragraph he says i would monitor the overall progress being made in order to keep the work on schedule
01:54:41 schedule whilst i attended site about two to three times a week depending on what was going on i would not go up the mass climb as
01:54:47 climb as each time i was there as this would disrupt the work of the installers now is it your recollection that mr ben bailey would be attending site two to three times a week
01:54:59 three times a week not in the beginning but at the end yes definitely and he would go up in the mass climax because he normally go up after the installers had gone home right i see as i was aware
01:55:11 right i see as i was aware and you're drawing a distinction between what he did at the beginning and what he did by the end can you recall what what it was that resulted in him coming more frequently um i think he was asked to by ryden's
01:55:23 um i think he was asked to by ryden's right
01:55:27 and would ben bailey deal with any issues that were arising on site relating to the installation yes
01:55:35 did he ever discuss any problems with the quality of the installation with you not at all
01:55:42 how did harley inform osborne berry of any snagging issues with the cladding installation there was some paperwork um ben would raise a a form
01:55:54 ben would raise a a form with and identify with pictures various things that he wanted rectified yeah
01:56:01 yeah that's as i remember i see
01:56:05 and how did you make sure that each of those was resolved well either myself or one of the lead fitters would go round and resolve the we've resolved the problems basically and then mr bailey had to go and check it again
01:56:16 had to go and check it again yeah now in his oral evidence the inquiry
01:56:20 inquiry ben bailey recalled that he performed visual checks of levels 1 to 20 on the north
01:56:25 north west and east elevations can you recall him undertaking those kind of inspections yes yes but in terms of the south elevation it
01:56:37 but in terms of the south elevation it would appear that he didn't check the south elevation is that your recollection that i i can't answer that i do not know but i would have i would have assumed he checked the south as well
01:56:48 checked the south as well i see but do you have any memory i haven't any memory now
01:56:59 ryden now were riding also inspecting osborne berry's work so far as you were aware i believed that the
01:57:10 i believed that the building control and ryden's checked over the work yes at the same time would building control on ryden building control went with ryden's if i remember correctly
01:57:21 ryden's if i remember correctly i see were you conscious of any other more frequent inspections by ryden
01:57:28 no not really
01:57:32 when the work was inspected by ryden was that as it proceeded state by state or only after the exterior
01:57:40 exterior acm was in place as it ex as it proceeded through the job i see and were you or mr berry always present during ryden inspections not at all as i can remember
01:57:54 and can you remember any particular individuals at ryden that would actually inspect your work i can't okay sorry can you recall any problems being highlighted by ryden about the quality of the installation
01:58:05 about the quality of the installation not at all
01:58:10 was there any formal process for signing off
01:58:13 off portions of osborne berry's work by ryden
01:58:17 ryden you'd have to speak to bj because he dealt with all that signing off paperwork
01:58:21 paperwork i see and again you're referring to the evidence of ben bailey there yeah yeah [Applause] if we could look at a document this is
01:58:32 ryd3051861
01:58:41 this is a defects list for grenfell tower
01:58:46 tower and it's authored by it's a ryden generated document you recall ever receiving documents like this
01:58:54 i have seen the documents like this before
01:58:57 before on the grenfell project on the grenfell project yes so you think you did see them yes i mean item 21 for example says scratches to
01:59:08 item 21 for example says scratches to glass that would be something for osborne berry to address would it it would
01:59:15 and so can you recall being provided with defects lists like this and then remedying them i can
01:59:24 so when mr hughes david hughes of ryden gave evidence on day 27 this is page 86 perhaps we can just pull this up so it's
01:59:36 perhaps we can just pull this up so it's day 27
01:59:37 day 27 page 86 and i want to look at line 16.
01:59:50 so if we start with the question he's asked at line 16 he's asked did you identify any defects or issues with the cladding prior to this building control visit and he says no not with the cladding but
02:00:03 and he says no not with the cladding but i go back to what i told you earlier one thing i did notice that the gaps the joins on the insulation boards weren't taped i asked taff and bez this question and they said that they didn't need to
02:00:15 they said that they didn't need to and that's when i went back and referred to the celetex or had a look at the celetex brochure to see if i could see anywhere specifically it said that the joins had to be taped
02:00:26 it said that the joins had to be taped you see that there and then and then it says and i'm talking if we can go on about the joins between insulation boards
02:00:34 boards yes i was aware all joints in insulation board
02:00:38 board all fixings were taped over that would be something that bj would have checked and inspected and pulled us up on
02:00:46 up on yeah because that was a must to stop dampness or moisture getting into the system
02:00:51 system i see and just to be clear when you're talking about the joints that was together come together straight across the flat joint and did anyone ever raise with you the question of whether the edges the exposed edges of the
02:01:04 the edges the exposed edges of the insulation boards also ought to be taped um no not at all but i have something to say on that if you buy a product that all
02:01:16 if you buy a product that all edges are taped when it arrives with you yeah you would naturally assume if you cut it
02:01:21 cut it you have to re-tape the edge right these come with four open edges yeah so you never assume you have to tape it and no paperwork was provided to tell us to tape it
02:01:32 to tape it yeah did you yourself ever look at the celetex rain screen cladding guide the document that mr hughes says he looked at no no so you didn't ever check what that
02:01:44 no no so you didn't ever check what that said in terms of taping of joints i didn't
02:01:47 didn't i trusted dave and if dave said some had been missed then i would have gone out and redone the taping and told the fitters who were doing it that they meant to tape the joints basically
02:01:58 basically when we looked at the harley method statement earlier i read out to you there was a bit it was item 10 of that statement on the column cladding it said taping joints with class o adhesive foil tape do you remember that
02:02:10 adhesive foil tape do you remember that i do
02:02:11 i do now um did you ever discuss with anybody why the joints in the insulation boards were taped but the edges were not i did not and
02:02:23 but the edges were not i did not and when you saw a class naught adhesive foil tape did you think the class naught was relevant to its fire performance i did have you ever worked on a project where the edges of such insulation board
02:02:35 where the edges of such insulation board are taped they still aren't being taped to this day yeah
02:02:46 to this day yeah when mr hughes gave evidence it was slightly unclear but at one point it seemed that he thought that there hadn't been taping of insulation joints as far as you're concerned was that work
02:02:57 as far as you're concerned was that work actually carried out most definitely
02:03:02 one one answer to that one building control would have picked it up and so should the clerk of the works and so should bj because it would have been such an obvious thing you couldn't miss it yeah
02:03:17 now building control now just a few questions about them um in your first witness statement this is a page three paragraph l little l you say that the
02:03:29 paragraph l little l you say that the building inspector had oversight of the installation process um and then perhaps if we look let's look at that so osb 6087 page
02:03:41 let's look at that so osb 6087 page three so little l
02:03:50 you we can see at l after k there's the question
02:03:54 question what was the chain of decision making communication and responsibility and you say harley made all the decisions in relation to how the cladding installation and windows were to be installed osborne very installed items as directed
02:04:05 osborne very installed items as directed and you say the building inspector had oversight of the installation process and then at the bottom of that page at paragraph
02:04:14 paragraph five
02:04:19 you also say
02:04:22 that there was inspection if we pick it up in the middle you say there was an inspection carried out by ben bailey from harley facades limited
02:04:30 limited harley curtain wall ryden maintenance limited and the local council building inspector
02:04:35 inspector all confirmed that there were no issues in relation to the installation of the windows
02:04:39 windows and the cladding now were you aware at the time of the project that somebody called mr hoban was responsible for inspecting the cladding from rbkc building control
02:04:50 cladding from rbkc building control no i wasn't so you didn't ever get introduced to the building control inspectors themselves not at all the uh the only inspector i remember was the um
02:05:03 oh building control um clocker works ah okay mr right yes that's the only man i can remember and i actually took him up once in the
02:05:14 and i actually took him up once in the mass climber
02:05:18 now so you took john white up once in the math climate did you ever go up the mass climbers with mr hoban or rbkc building control not that i can remember
02:05:29 that i can remember okay were you ever present at any of the building control inspections no
02:05:40 no [Applause] mr hogan has said that a number of things were said to him on site for example that the cladding was compliant with the building regulations
02:05:51 compliant with the building regulations that it had been used in hundreds of other buildings um could it have been you that he was having any of those discussions with not that i'm aware of
02:06:04 so you don't recall telling a building control inspector anything about the compliance of the system or how frequently this system had been fitted to buildings in england and wales
02:06:15 in england and wales i don't remember having conversations with the building control to be honest great thank you
02:06:22 the clerk of works then um so mr john white did you understand him to be the clerk of works on the project i did did you understand him to be
02:06:35 i did did you understand him to be on site one day a week or more frequently i wasn't sure how many days a week he was on site i think i've only learned that today from the earlier yeah interview and i think you've just
02:06:47 yeah interview and i think you've just said that you were present when he one time i took him up once in the mouse climber yeah
02:06:59 the mouse climber yeah can you help us as to whether or not the clerk of works was inspecting the cladding so far as you were aware more free looking at everything taking photos of various things
02:07:11 taking photos of various things so you were aware that he was going up the mass climbing i was yes yes and how often were you aware of him doing that
02:07:24 good
02:07:29 i really wouldn't like to say because i cannot remember but i know he was on site and ben took him up
02:07:36 him up a few times i think he went up with dave a few times there was quite a few times he was up the building yeah quite a few were you aware of precisely what he was checking for no
02:07:48 checking for no yeah did you ever see any of his site inspection reports no
02:07:55 no a final topic that i've got now is um about some complaints and issues to do with complaints and if we can turn first to um
02:08:06 first to um this is iws501705
02:08:14 this is a witness statement of mr luke towner who was the resident of flat 171 and if we could look on page six at paragraph 27
02:08:25 paragraph 27 and i want to pick it up in the third line down
02:08:29 line down of paragraph 27 he says whilst the cladding was being installed i thought to myself that it must be necessary to use fire retardant material on buildings the height of grenfell tower i therefore asked one of the contractors
02:08:40 asked one of the contractors whether the materials being used were compliant with building regulations for high-rise buildings and whether they were using fire retardant insulation he responded that he was unsure and would need to get the manager to speak
02:08:51 would need to get the manager to speak to me
02:08:53 to me and then he says linda apprentice from ryden came to speak to me about the insulation now do you recall ever speaking to this resident or indeed any other residents of grenfell tower regarding compliance
02:09:04 of grenfell tower regarding compliance of the
02:09:04 of the materials with the building regulations not at all i i only actually spoke to one person really in the tower who is no longer with us
02:09:16 longer with us and he was on lived on the east elevation
02:09:19 elevation and that is the only person i really held deep conversations with yeah because he was also into sea fishing like i won i am
02:09:31 but as for anybody else i don't remember this
02:09:35 this can we now look at an email chain this is ryd3039173 this is an email chain between ryden and harley if we look at the bottom of page
02:09:47 harley if we look at the bottom of page one and over to page two this apprentice ryden's resident liaison officer
02:09:53 officer says to simon o'connor it's about flat 185 and if we go over the page said hi simon i just received a text from david collins in flat 185 stating that he found part of the window installation hanging loose this morning
02:10:05 installation hanging loose this morning he's taken it into his house he didn't want it to fall the 18 floors and also that there's some poly polythene on the back of one of the cladding panels blowing in the wind has nearly come off can it be taken off safely and we can
02:10:17 can it be taken off safely and we can see at the very top of page one ben bailey says back to simon o'connor yeah i'll ask taft to go and have a look can you remember this complaint about
02:10:29 can you remember this complaint about cladding panels hanging loose no the tiding panel wasn't actually loose what had happened is the low tack tape on the panel had come away from the bottom of the panel so as
02:10:40 away from the bottom of the panel so as the wind was blowing the low tactic was flapping backwards and forwards on the panel
02:10:45 panel so i just removed the low tack tape completely off the panel to open and expose the actual face of the panel basically yeah
02:10:54 can we then turn to ryd3038501
02:11:03 this is an email from simon o'connor to ben bailey of the 9th of april 2015 and he says afternoon ben i have concerns over a
02:11:14 afternoon ben i have concerns over a certain member of your staff on site bears taft's partner following a number of complaints these comprise of knocking on windows asking for tea ingest or not it's not acceptable
02:11:26 ingest or not it's not acceptable banging on people's windows to scare animals inside flats i have witnessed this on one occasion feeding the wrong information to residents saying that's all been put in the wrong way round because of ryden and hopefully it won't
02:11:37 because of ryden and hopefully it won't leak a complete lack of respect for health and safety climbing across climbers dropping material on public footpaths to mention a few
02:11:47 a few as you are aware we are tackling a difficult situation with residents as it is and these sorts of comments and behaviors only adds fuel to the fire if i have one more incident on site with this individual then i will have no
02:11:58 this individual then i will have no option but to remove him from sight permanently regards simon o'connor do you see that there i do now mr ben bailey was asked about this email and at the time we'd redacted the the beds taft's
02:12:11 we'd redacted the the beds taft's partner yeah so yeah i know all about that so we we can see now that this complaint was about graham berry your business partner yes it certainly was
02:12:22 it certainly was um i've known graham probably 35 years this is not something graham would do i asked mr o'connor for corroborative
02:12:34 i asked mr o'connor for corroborative evidence
02:12:36 evidence yes and i then asked mr o'connor why a yellow card wasn't issued when a week previous or two weeks previous he'd issued a yellow card to one of my young fitters for swearing at a
02:12:46 a resident right um and what did he say in response
02:12:50 response he didn't he walked away from me
02:12:55 right now i had a word with graham graham said he he hadn't done that i personally don't think he would have done that
02:13:06 so i let it go with that basically i see so was that your response to ryden at the time and ben bailey that you just didn't accept that this had happened
02:13:19 didn't accept that this had happened and the falling objects
02:13:22 that happened very early on in the contract
02:13:27 contract um when we were drilling the holes for the angles to hold the windows behind the insulation as you've probably seen it's a very pebbly surface
02:13:39 it's a very pebbly surface yes a very large flint's on there i asked ryden's to supply a catch net
02:13:46 to stop anything falling down onto people below because what was happening they supplied a fan
02:13:54 a fan which is a scaffold boarded fan at an angle but as you're probably aware if a pebble's not quite the right shape it doesn't need to say it's going to go inwards it could go left right or straight ahead they told me it
02:14:07 right or straight ahead they told me it wasn't within their remit to do that so i then had to make boxes that went between the mass climber and the wall but if anything fell off when the drills hit
02:14:18 anything fell off when the drills hit the pebbles they dropped straight in the boxes i see this was made by mr o'connor a big big thing basically i see so where there's reference here to a complete
02:14:29 a complete lack of respect for health and safety that reference then in in brackets to dropping material on public footpaths you're you're sure are you that that's what that's referring to i would assume that's what that's
02:14:40 that's what that's referring to because the only the only ever time we had anything come down off a mouse climber was the wind got up and blew some bits of insulation down right yeah you can't keep those
02:14:51 right yeah you can't keep those safe 100 of time even if you put them in a bag and the wind gets up they just blow out the bag and what about climbing across climbing that i did catch a catch two people doing and they were told about that and that never happened
02:15:03 told about that and that never happened again
02:15:03 again and was one of those people mr berry no it was not were you ever aware of mr berry doing that no
02:15:11 that no no i wouldn't have thought graham would have done that one thing is he doesn't like heights to do that sort of thing what about telling residents
02:15:20 residents wrong or false information about the cladding
02:15:23 cladding i don't believe that either mr ben bailey said he spoke to mr berry and said that the behavior was unacceptable were you aware that that would happen i was actually there when you spoke to
02:15:34 i was actually there when you spoke to him and what was mr berry's response when ben bailey raised this with him i didn't do it best right so is it right that you didn't put in place any steps to address this because
02:15:46 place any steps to address this because you weren't satisfied that there was anything to complain about correct
02:15:52 mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions all right thank you very much if we could have the customer break to allow me to sweep up anything further that would be great of course well mr osborne as you heard council's reached the end of
02:16:04 heard council's reached the end of the questions that she had in mind to ask you but we normally have a break at this stage just to allow council to check with there aren't any questions that have been left unasked
02:16:15 questions that have been left unasked and it sometimes occurs that people who are not here send questions in they'd like to have asked as well so we have a 10 15 minute break how long do you think you're going to need
02:16:26 you're going to need yeah i think 10 minutes should be fine um right well we'll come back at 25 fast please and see whether there are more questions
02:16:33 questions thank you very much thank you very much
02:16:42 thank you 25 faster please
02:26:47 yes would you ask mr osborne to come back in please
02:27:03 back in please right mr olsen should we see if ms grange has found some more questions for you
02:27:06 you thank you yes ms grange yes just a few short questions thank you um so just um to clarify something about the scope of osborne berry's work on the windows is it right that
02:27:18 is it right that osborne berry did not install the actual fans in the kitchen window units is that correct
02:27:25 correct we didn't install them yep the electricians put them in the panels then we installed the panel into the window with the fan fitted in it i see that's really helpful thank you
02:27:36 i see that's really helpful thank you and then you were talking before about the fact that you had made sure that the horizontal cavity barriers were stored separate from the vertical cavity barriers correct can you help us as to where exactly you
02:27:47 can you help us as to where exactly you had stored the vertical cavity barriers on site well there was a i don't know what you'd call it a garage um if you come into granville tower by the front entrance on the left-hand side
02:27:59 the front entrance on the left-hand side there was two garages yeah we used the garages as storage yeah so we had
02:28:04 so we had one garage for us we split it in half we had one lot of stuff that side and a lot of stuff that side basically right yeah that's how they were individualized i see and you split out you remember spitting out the horizontal from the vertical
02:28:15 vertical not being funny the fitters should not this is
02:28:18 this is i know after what we've seen it's bad but the fitters should not have made the mistake because one has got an intermission strip on it and it's so obviously different to the other one yeah okay you know it's chalk and cheese
02:28:30 yeah okay you know it's chalk and cheese basically
02:28:31 basically yeah it's determined that those are all just good well thank you very much well mr osborne thank you very much indeed for coming to give your evidence it really has been very useful to hear
02:28:42 it really has been very useful to hear what you've had to say and that's all we have for you so you're now free to go thank you very much
02:29:00 good thank you ms granger that's okay that's it for today yes and then tomorrow we have mr graham berry and mr mark dixon good thank you very much well we'll stop at that point and resume tomorrow
02:29:11 at that point and resume tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock please thank you very much
02:29:50 you