Evidence from Carl Stokes of C S Stokes and Associates regarding fire risk assessments conducted at Grenfell Tower. Testimony covers FRA reports, statutory breaches, and procedures for follow-up actions.
00:00:35 would you ask mr stokes to come back in
00:00:42 please
00:00:56 so all right mr stokes are you ready to carry on yes sir thank you thank you very much yes yes mr chairman thank you mr text can i ask you please to be shown
00:01:10 cst403061
00:01:18 yes this is a letter you wrote to janice ray of the tmo dated the 27th of september 2010 as you can see and in the first paragraph it says after our meeting on friday 24th
00:01:29 after our meeting on friday 24th september 2010 at the hub 300 kensel road north kensington i would like to put in writing
00:01:35 writing the management procedures topics and issues etc we discussed so that when completing any fire risk assessments for residential buildings under the control of the tenants management organization tmo
00:01:46 management organization tmo of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea in future these standards and observations will apply and then you go on to set out some details which we're going to return to just pausing there for a moment it looks
00:01:58 just pausing there for a moment it looks as if
00:01:59 as if you had a meeting with janice ray on the 24th of september 2010 correct yes and that was was it not the day
00:02:08 day after the she had written to you with a letter of intent confirming that you were the successful tenderer yes yes yes uh and that was about three weeks or
00:02:19 yes uh and that was about three weeks or so before you would officially do to start your contract which is i think on the 18th of october as you remember it yes um did you set up that meeting or was that meeting set up
00:02:31 was that meeting set up before you were made aware that you had been the successful tenderer i've got no idea i wouldn't have thought so no and can you help us with why you were attending a meeting with her before your contract
00:02:42 meeting with her before your contract officially commenced
00:02:46 to put it if i'd have been told but in place the criteria for any of these items
00:02:55 right when you say i'd like to put in writing the management procedures etc we discussed
00:03:02 discussed uh did you intend to add that information to your fire risk assessments and then use that information in your subsequent fire risk assessments
00:03:13 assessments that's what it looks like again right uh why were you meeting her in september 2010 when you'd already met her a few months earlier in june 22nd of june 2010 as well as we've seen from the
00:03:24 june 2010 as well as we've seen from the earlier correspondence do you know no i do right
00:03:31 now after the meetings with janet ray on the 22nd of june and 24th september 2010 did you ever meet her again specifically to discuss information to go into your fraser yes
00:03:47 information to go into your fraser yes you mean did i meet us after this date yes
00:03:50 yes yes did you meet her frequently um did you meet her annually for example
00:03:58 i would say three two three times a year four times a year and did you specifically meet her in order
00:04:06 order to discuss the information to go in to to the sections of the fra which you can see set out on page one of this letter for example employee fire training foreign emergency
00:04:19 employee fire training foreign emergency information for residents the for my memories correct her gender would be
00:04:25 would be provided beforehand she would say this is what we want to discuss have you got anything you want to add to the agenda then we'd have the meeting i follow now can i ask you then about
00:04:36 can i ask you then about how you would go about cl undertaking a fire risk assessment um can we start with the competence standard
00:04:45 standard in pas 79 2012 at cta 703 page 65.
00:05:01 this is appendix a to pas79 and it's entitled the assessment of risk
00:05:09 of risk from fire and it starts the first paragraph it is innate in the to the process of carrying out a fire risk assessment that there be an assessment of fire risk the competent
00:05:20 an assessment of fire risk the competent fire risk assessor must be able to make a subjective judgment albeit based largely on objective evidence of the overall risk to life from fire
00:05:28 from fire in the building for which a fire risk assessment is carried out now just i want to focus your mind on the words
00:05:36 the words albeit based largely on objective evidence
00:05:40 evidence would you agree that the approach set out here
00:05:43 out here uh was uh the approach that you would have sought or did seek to adopt yes
00:05:50 yes now if we go to your statement we'll come back to this but if we can go to your witness statement your first statement to page 17 paragraph 51 please you say this
00:06:03 initially in the november of each calendar year the kctma would send me a list of properties to inspect in the next calendar year the higher the risk category of a particular building the more frequently
00:06:15 particular building the more frequently it would be assessed following receipt of the list i would then carry out fras on the identified buildings
00:06:20 buildings throughout the following year liaising with miss ray with regards to the practicalities of so doing arranging access to the building provision of relevant documents etc see further paris 67 below
00:06:32 see further paris 67 below so it's right is it that janice ray would send you a list of fras or or buildings for which to complete an fra yes and how would you schedule the fras to be carried out
00:06:45 for memory they would usually come
00:06:49 by month so i would i wouldn't know how many to do each month and that would be from the previous fra so
00:06:57 so they were at three and five year intervals if they were undertaken in the june
00:07:01 june they would be undertaken in the june of that the year that was allocated how would you decide the order in which each building should be assessed if it as a group together i would try
00:07:13 if it as a group together i would try and do it
00:07:14 and do it geographically because it was less traveling around right so she's did she send you a list saying in november you've got to do these buildings in december these buildings january etc
00:07:25 buildings january etc yes for so many months in advance yes yes and how many months in advance on average it depended um it was always flexible because
00:07:36 flexible because if work was to be undertaken in a building or a question was asked this would always be added to the list or even sometimes some would drop out of the list right so can we take it then in summary that the basis on which
00:07:48 then in summary that the basis on which you prioritized your inspections was the list
00:07:51 list provided to you by janice ray and then within
00:07:54 within that list you would decide on priorities based on geography yes right information gathering when she instructed you to carry out an fra of a particular building what
00:08:05 fra of a particular building what information would she normally give you about that building
00:08:11 um most of the times now i've been around most of the buildings myself so i would have a general idea of the building
00:08:19 building i would then ask for any updates of dry riser testing any other services in the building which i would be provided to me plus
00:08:31 be provided to me plus the in-house
00:08:34 fra that was undertaken since my last visit
00:08:38 visit but if there'd be no a previous fra or non-available what would you what would she give you i'd go from the start so it'd be um i would initial building look at
00:08:50 i would initial building look at i would ask what's in the building uh the list you showed me at the beginning has a list of all the um assets within that building so i would know before i went whether it
00:09:01 so i would know before i went whether it had a dry rise height of the building etc etc now can we go to your first witness statement on the next page please page 18 and look at paragraph 55 roman 1. and there you say the general
00:09:14 roman 1. and there you say the general approach i took to carrying out an fra was as follows one i would receive certain information from the client as to the nature of the common parts being assessed as well as certain information on the active and passive fire safety
00:09:25 on the active and passive fire safety measures in place uh and how would that information come to you would it be be by email or email and is the information that you identify there in general terms more
00:09:37 you identify there in general terms more specifically what you've just identified to me
00:09:39 to me yes right and page 22 if you go on to that please paragraph 67 you set out the available information sources there from which you also obtain information yourself
00:09:51 yourself um and you say it roman one there's a list and summarizing it you say you
00:09:57 say you um you say kctmo's online document storage space was that the keystone kiosk i believe so yes or was it a shared drive do you know no keystone right and how
00:10:09 do you know no keystone right and how would you access keystone um i was given access to it as a icon on my
00:10:14 my desktop right was that always the case did you get the access to keystone as soon as you started doing fras when did you first get access to keystone well i've just looked here it would have
00:10:25 well i've just looked here it would have been about 2014. yes it took a while for the it to set up to right before uh you got access to keystone how would you
00:10:36 you got access to keystone how would you access
00:10:36 access information two ways i would either i could go into the hub and ask the um maintenance department and say i'm going to these buildings in the next
00:10:49 i'm going to these buildings in the next two months please provide me with all this documentation they would either print it off or i would try and do it building by building on the week before i went right where would you get the
00:11:00 i went right where would you get the information building by building from well i'd ask jenna's right first i see
00:11:04 see and in this statement as you say uh you were given access sometime in 2014 to keystone keystone in fact might that have been a little bit later
00:11:15 little bit later october 2015 possibly it possibly could i know it took a long time to set up yes um
00:11:23 um so to get that access and then even when i did get the access sometimes i could never sometimes couldn't log on
00:11:32 right the reason i ask you that or suggest it to you is is because we've seen a document can we look at it tmo double zero eight five nine three one eight
00:11:41 eight please this is an email
00:11:47 tm00859318 email 11th of october 2015
00:11:55 uh in which janice ray asks john parsons within the tmo uh to brief you on keystone servicing information so might it be in fact
00:12:07 might it be in fact not not until october 2015 that you eventually got access to keystone possibly because it took a long time to get it accessed right and we have other documents as well um
00:12:18 well um and as i think you say before that date you would normally physically have to retrieve them from the maintenance team at the hub right yes or get them from janice ray um now
00:12:30 yes or get them from janice ray um now um dr lane one of the experts to the inquiry has examined the keystone system and she's concluded and just for the record this is at paragraph 11.2.56 of chapter 7
00:12:45 blarp25033 at page 220 that keystone did not contain
00:12:50 contain a maintenance and servicing record for the smoke control system or the dry fire main or emergency lighting
00:12:58 lighting do you agree with that off the top of my head i can't answer that question i got information on off the systems if i did if it wasn't
00:13:09 on off the systems if i did if it wasn't on keystone i then rang and asked i see so on the footing that she's correct uh you access that information in relation to for example the smoke control system by
00:13:20 for example the smoke control system by going into the hub and asking the maintenance people there or asking janice ray direct yes
00:13:27 sorry to interrupt if i couldn't get that information i would then highlight it on the significant findings that i didn't have that information right was there a consistent means by which the tma provided records of maintenance to you or was it provided on an ad hoc
00:13:38 to you or was it provided on an ad hoc basis
00:13:39 basis when you were as as and when you asked for it
00:13:44 once i had access to keystone i had access to most of it but a lot of buildings didn't have systems in them anyway so they were only talking the high-rise
00:14:00 buildings did you always ask for complete up-to-date information from janice ray before completing each fra or fra review yes i tried to
00:14:12 or fra review yes i tried to you tried to now paragraph 67 3 and 4 of your statement on page 22 if we can get back to that you say that you would rely on third-party confirmations it's at the
00:14:24 third-party confirmations it's at the foot of your screen and at roman four uh if we can just scroll up
00:14:29 scroll up you say contractors you'd also rely on contractors um just just focusing on on those for the moment would your reliance
00:14:39 reliance uh on third-party confirmations and contractors be based on conversations with
00:14:43 with them or it was a more formal way of getting information from those third parties
00:14:48 parties well contractors um so it could be verbally but i wouldn't have access to a contractor but it could be contractors labels so for lift maintenance
00:15:00 for lift maintenance there's a lift record log book kept in the lift motor room i would always look at that but every time i went to a building that had a lift in it
00:15:11 i see so when you refer to in roman 3 uh an example mance masterdoor's confirmation that doors installed with 30 minute rated
00:15:22 doors installed with 30 minute rated fire doors that was by looking at the labels on the doors was it rather than speaking to somebody at man's grade i would not have spoken to anyone i see so third party confirmations isn't actually
00:15:33 third party confirmations isn't actually a confirmation by a third party in response to a request by you it's you looking at the labels and the instructions sorry for or lower information provided by them
00:15:44 or lower information provided by them certification right so document it's a documents exercise yes what about contractors would you speak to contractors so like in the case of the refurbishment
00:15:55 so like in the case of the refurbishment of the tower yes right yeah and would those confirmations from contractors be recorded anywhere only if i was making notes as i was going around the building why would you
00:16:06 going around the building why would you not make notes of you as if as you went around the building i was saying on my notes that would be the only place i wouldn't take minutes or anything right there's no formal meetings and such i see on the topic of arranging access
00:16:20 i see on the topic of arranging access in your first statement at page 17 if we can please scroll back to that you say paragraph 51
00:16:31 as i've shown you uh that janice ray would assist you with the practicalities of arranging access uh
00:16:45 of arranging access uh for inspecting flat entrance doors i think you said earlier that you would take it upon yourself to knock if you if you there were signs of life within is that right yes did you ever ask janice ray
00:16:56 janice ray to i did to arrange access with a particular tenant or leaseholder in respect of any flat where you wanted specifically to have access sometimes it could be arranged
00:17:07 access sometimes it could be arranged yes
00:17:07 yes do you remember occasions when it happened leaseholder doors was one if i needed to
00:17:12 needed to have access she would arrange it
00:17:16 and if we stick with the statement and go to page 20 look at paragraph 59 you say
00:17:25 i did not pre-arrange access to the flats as this would be extremely time consuming and intrusive and in many cases not possible my visits to the time would happen in the day when many people were at work or otherwise engaged i would however knock
00:17:37 otherwise engaged i would however knock on some of the flat doors while visiting to see whether i could carry out some limited
00:17:41 limited internal inspections of the doors correct uh if you didn't pre-arrange access how could you ensure that you could carry out a sufficient sample a sufficiently representative
00:17:53 sample a sufficiently representative sample of flat entrance doors i couldn't but it was a sample if one door if every door was the same throughout the building i would sample some doors as i said
00:18:06 i would sample some doors as i said before
00:18:07 before if they were all different doors i would uh could didn't get access i would highlight them on the risk assessment then come back all get access at a later date through ms ray right so right no pre-arranged access so you've
00:18:19 right no pre-arranged access so you've essentially left it to chance to see who was in
00:18:22 was in and if you got lucky then that was good and if you didn't you would note it on the action plan agreed right now the the
00:18:30 yes and how would you know whether your sample on any given occasion was adequate
00:18:37 adequate i wouldn't no am i right in thinking that there was no guidance or benchmarking on what is a rep properly representative sample of flat entrance doors concise on my way no right
00:18:48 right can we go to paragraph 72 of your second statement please second statement to page 18.
00:19:03 uh if we look at paragraph 72 you say you refer to a document document cst402861 was a standard letter posted to residents in 2010 the year in
00:19:15 posted to residents in 2010 the year in which i began undertaking fras for the kctmo as c.s stokes this letter refers to me knocking on doors during fra inspections not to the kctma arranging certain inspections in advance
00:19:26 inspections in advance as far as i can recall this was the only year such a letter was distributed at no point was i aware of any prior arrangements or appointments being made neither would i expect them to have been made and let's look at the letter
00:19:38 made and let's look at the letter it's at cst uh three zero four zero is two eight six one
00:19:44 one as cited in your paragraph and it says dear resident fire risk
00:19:55 and it says dear resident fire risk assessment within the communal areas of your block this is to advise you that cs stakes and associates have been limited have been appointed by the tmo to carry out a fire risk assessment in the communal areas of your block
00:20:07 the communal areas of your block these assessments are a legal requirement and our appointment has been made following consultation with the council
00:20:12 council and the london fire brigades local fire safety team specifically we will be inspecting the communal areas of your block and assessing all the fire safety measures including the means of escape fire doors emergency lighting
00:20:23 escape fire doors emergency lighting etc as part of this assessment we will need to inspect a number of the flat entrance doors and so we may call on you and request your permission to inspect and assess your front entrance door they should only take a short time and
00:20:35 they should only take a short time and we would be grateful if you felt able to allow access for this the consultant will carry a tmo id badge so please do ask for sight of this before you allow access the consultant will be in your block in the week commencing
00:20:46 block in the week commencing 18th of october 2010 which is i think the first
00:20:49 the first week you started on the medium risk program
00:20:53 program um as it turns out now do you know if this letter was sent out to residents at all
00:20:59 all i'm assuming so yes so how did it work you provided this as a a template to janice ray and she's you expected her to send it out memories correct this was
00:21:12 between the two of us and then this would be
00:21:16 would be distributed by the caretakers in the blocks i follow
00:21:22 did it help you gain access to flats to inspect flat entrance doors i don't know because i would have knocked on doors anyway this is when i first started so i had no idea what the
00:21:33 first started so i had no idea what the doors were i was learning the um
00:21:38 the type of doors they had within their buildings at that time so this is the fourth quarter of 2010 which when we know you produced a an fra on the 29th
00:21:49 on the 29th of december 2010 do you remember when you did that we'll come back to this later on but do you remember when you did that you were helped in managing to obtain inspection of the
00:22:00 in managing to obtain inspection of the flat entrance doors um by this letter i've got no idea because there's never any follow-up undertaken do you know whether a letter simulator such as this was sent after 2010 by the
00:22:13 such as this was sent after 2010 by the tma
00:22:13 tma i don't think so i think it was a kind of one-off because i was trying to get a perspective on what the doors what standard of doors was involved right in the buildings so
00:22:25 was involved right in the buildings so you say it was a one-off i believe as far as i know i never saw these letters again or had much right not block-wise right going back to your first witness
00:22:36 right going back to your first witness statement page 18 paragraph 55 roman 2 visits you say at that paragraph i would ins then inspect the common parts where
00:22:48 ins then inspect the common parts where necessary and or possible i would speak to those i met whilst inspecting the building i.e any residents or during the refurbishment contractors when you met residents in the common
00:22:59 when you met residents in the common parts did you ask whether you could inspect their flat front door yes i would always you know is it possible could i please have a look and when you walked around a high-rise building undertaking your assessment what kind of
00:23:10 what kind of proportion of front doors would you knock on in order to gain access would you try all of them where you could hear somebody in or or ignore some the former
00:23:23 ignore some the former if i could try and get access i would but
00:23:26 but in a lot of cases depending on the building how many doors in the building if there was five doors and they were all exactly the same and i could get access to one and how would you document uh what you
00:23:38 and how would you document uh what you found
00:23:39 found on your tour of the building where you did manage to get access uh on the notes i
00:23:43 i uh i always used to write over well draw up a
00:23:47 up a drawing of the building on my notes and then i would put down if i got into one build flat flat three door flush timber
00:23:59 three door flush timber self closer perco overhead strips and seals yes no where you couldn't get access to a sample of entrance doors sufficiently
00:24:11 sufficiently representative sample of flat entrance doors did you note that dan
00:24:17 yes well i would have noted down in the body of the document because i couldn't actually say whether what type of closes they were so i would put in significant findings further action is
00:24:29 significant findings further action is needed
00:24:30 needed to come back and have a look did you ever raise with janice ray as a point of concern
00:24:34 concern that you couldn't access a sample of flat front doors or did you just leave it to the action plan it would go at significant fines on the action plan but we did have meetings where things
00:24:46 but we did have meetings where things were discussed like common uh i'm not say faults but common uh items that were cropping up time and time again and then if we stick with paragraph 55 and look at romans 3 and 4 roman 3 is at
00:24:58 and look at romans 3 and 4 roman 3 is at the foot of page 18 you say after my inspection i might request additional information although this was not strictly necessary as where information was not available this could always be flagged in the fra stroke the appended
00:25:10 in the fra stroke the appended significant finding schedule that's the action plan yes and then over the page page 19 you say roman 4 i would then prepare the fra and significant finding schedule the latter containing the matters which
00:25:21 the latter containing the matters which needed to be addressed in traffic light designations based on priority see further paragraph 68 below
00:25:32 would you discuss your findings with janice ray before issuing an fra and the significant action plan if it was um
00:25:45 work it was immediate action required yes i would do that before i left site but otherwise if it was just a routine um door not shutting properly or something like that no you would go on these significant
00:25:56 no you would go on these significant findings was there any reason why if you couldn't get access to a suitable sample of flat entrance doors on any particular visit you didn't note that in the fra itself
00:26:08 that in the fra itself as opposed to leaving it to the significant uh findings and action plan document which was separate it probably would be noted in the body of the significant finance because it i would be or couldn't say in the body
00:26:21 i would be or couldn't say in the body that the doors were self-closing or yes see i i i i misunderstood it but i thought that the significant finding schedule as you call it i think or significant
00:26:33 as you call it i think or significant findings and action plan document was was reserved for um identifying the concerns that you had and then grading them is that that's right
00:26:44 right yes yes so why would you if you couldn't complete an inspection because you couldn't get access to a suitable sample of flat entrance doors why not raise that in the body of the report itself
00:26:55 itself so as to be able to say i can't judge uh the condition of the flat entrance doors in this particular building i think most of the time i could always
00:27:06 i think most of the time i could always get at least access to a few or comment on it right so does that tell us that it was only a very rare occasion when you would actually not be satisfied that you'd had sufficient access
00:27:17 access yes right going to paragraph 68 of your first statement on page 23 please you just move forward four pages you say where there were identifiable
00:27:30 you say where there were identifiable concerns however these would be raised in the significant finding schedule this identified the risk or hazard and specified actions to be taken these were given priorities low medium or high and the schedule was set up in
00:27:42 or high and the schedule was set up in such a way that it could act as a checklist for the kctma to ensure that each of the items were dealt with when it came to carrying out a new fra i would use the previous significant findings schedule as a
00:27:53 significant findings schedule as a starting point to ensure that all points raised had been dealt with see paragraph 119 for an example of how this works in practice now you say that when it came to
00:28:04 now you say that when it came to carrying out a new fra i would use the previous significant finding schedule as a starting point was that only for new fras for when i went back to any building i
00:28:15 for when i went back to any building i would use the previous one so it did include fra reviews yes so just for an example when you went back to grenfell tower in the october of 2014 you used the significant finding
00:28:27 2014 you used the significant finding schedule from your december 2012. yes fra is that correct they were the dates yes they are the dates um yes i see and when you undertook your visit i think you said you took you took notes did you
00:28:39 you said you took you took notes did you have a particular notebook or what did you make your notes on usually a4 plain paper or if i had a drawing of the building i would make them on those right i mean other than the notes we've
00:28:51 right i mean other than the notes we've uh seen you made on your visit in april 2016 on the 2014 version of the significant action plan the inquiry has never seen any manuscript notes of your visits
00:29:03 manuscript notes of your visits um can you explain why that is because normally after the
00:29:10 under one i'd undertaken i would destroy the old
00:29:13 the old notes so i only ever kept one copy back i see
00:29:22 can we go to page 17 of your statement again please and look at paragraph 52 and also paragraph 53 on page 18 but 52 says
00:29:33 says initially if i carried out an fra in a given year for a particular high-risk building
00:29:38 building including the tower it was intended that the fra would be reviewed in-house by the kctma the next year and i would then undertake a fresh fra the year after that and then if you continue over the pages
00:29:49 and then if you continue over the pages can be seen from his raise email dated 12 may
00:29:53 12 may 2015 in 2015 the kctma decided that fra should be carried out on high-risk buildings every three years with fras or medium and low-risk buildings to be carried out at least
00:30:04 buildings to be carried out at least every four years reviews would then be carried out in-house by the kct mo annually in thosios when an fra was not undertaken in relation to the tower however the april and june 2016 fras were requested
00:30:17 april and june 2016 fras were requested outside of this proposed regime due to the refurbishment uh now just just help us with the in-house
00:30:25 in-house fra review when you say reviews would be carried out in-house by the tmo annually in those years when an fra was not undertaken who would
00:30:36 undertaken who would who would undertake that in-house fra the health and safety team did they produce a document building by building
00:30:48 produce a document building by building sometimes because i would get copies
00:30:54 and and who within the in-house health and safety team would carry out these in-house fras um it would be janet ray adrian bowman
00:31:05 um it would be janet ray adrian bowman and there was uh later stages they employed
00:31:08 employed at least one or two other people right and and
00:31:15 what what did these these documents you've just referred to look like you say sometimes because i would get copies what did you get it was more it was a tick sheet
00:31:27 it was more it was a tick sheet like i had like a health and safety teacher i think i did forward one on
00:31:34 i can't remember do you know what that in-house review entailed
00:31:43 i would like to think going over the previous significant findings and then walking around the building and looking to see if there was any damage or any other items within the building right were you
00:31:55 items within the building right were you ever asked to advise on the appropriateness of any in-house review as you call it in other words whether it was a good review or a bad review or you just sent
00:32:06 review or you just sent the tick sheets as you call them for information tick sheets for information right what would what did you understand the tmo wanted you to do with those tick sheets
00:32:16 sheets i suppose nothing really i asked for them to see that something uh an in-house one that had been undertaken right it sounds as if from what you're saying that that the pre the in-house review
00:32:28 that that the pre the in-house review was was simply a monitoring exercise on the progress of closing out fra actions is that right or was it any more profound than that
00:32:39 more profound than that i can't comment i don't know right
00:32:47 um
00:32:51 at any rate did when you say that in-house reviews were carried out you i i detect from your evidence that you don't mean a an fra review of the kind you would do
00:33:02 a an fra review of the kind you would do no i see now um let's look next at the tmos fire safety strategy please at tm00830598
00:33:17 now what i'm going to show you is a document dated november 2013 signed by janice rayne if you go to page 15 in that document
00:33:28 you go to page 15 in that document you'll see her name at the bottom and the date
00:33:31 the date page 15 there it is november 2013.
00:33:36 uh is this a document with which you are familiar i've had seen this document and commented on it yes uh now if we go to page 10
00:33:47 yes uh now if we go to page 10 paragraph 14.3.3 it says this specifically as thorough fras have been undertaken in all our beauty kc locations in blocks
00:33:58 all our beauty kc locations in blocks where criteria two to four above do not apply
00:34:01 apply it's our intention to carry out a shorter review exercise on a regular basis
00:34:06 basis with a more fundamental new fra completed at less regular intervals it is anticipated that the shorter more regular reviews which will tend to concentrate primarily on progress with previous action plan and
00:34:18 with previous action plan and identification of any changes will be carried out in-house by the tmo health and safety team however where completely new fros are required either because of some cri summer criteria two to four reply on an
00:34:30 summer criteria two to four reply on an or
00:34:30 or on a recurring basis the services of a specialist fire risk assessor will be used
00:34:38 now uh i i'm assuming you were aware of that
00:34:41 that approach yes yes in january 2013 now this is before november 2013 and the production of this document
00:34:51 document it's right isn't it that you were asked by janice ray to review a draft of the tmo's draft fire safety strategy yes yes and the document is at cst402046
00:35:06 yes yes and the document is at cst402046 let's just have a and just have that up just to
00:35:10 just to pin it into the record
00:35:15 this is the draft document and it's got um as you can see from the key at the top
00:35:22 top green your comments yellow your deletions and blew your questions is that right yes the book i always ask for comments so these would have been my comments
00:35:31 comments to be taken yesterday by them in indeed and we'll come back to some of those in in in due course uh if you go please to paragraph 14.3 14.3.3
00:35:46 please to paragraph 14.3 14.3.3 about 14.3 at the bottom of page eight and onto page nine you can see that the fourth paragraph uh down
00:36:00 on the screen it's now two thirds of the way down your screen says specifically as thorough fras have been undertaken et cetera et cetera et cetera
00:36:10 cetera you've seen this in its early draft form and made no deletions or comments on it apart from an astray on uh you say is it right can we take it that you had known about this proposed
00:36:21 you had known about this proposed procedure from january 2013. yes yes it was this procedure that is referred to here in place as of january 2013
00:36:33 in place as of january 2013 do you know i have no idea i just asked a comment on this did you ask her about it did you or rather did you did you ask her or did you assume that um the process that she's referring to in that
00:36:44 that she's referring to in that paragraph
00:36:45 paragraph applied and was in in uh in place as of january 2013 i can't uh i can't remember but i would
00:36:56 i can't uh i can't remember but i would assume it was in place because otherwise how would they undertake the in-house reviews there must have been some document in place right and now going to your second witness statement at paragraph 46 on page 12
00:37:11 on this subject you say there that uh
00:37:19 in the second sentence to the best of my recollection i was not provided with copies of any reviews undertaken by the kctmo did you ever ask for them
00:37:34 so which but which one yes i'm going to say sorry paragraph 46 oh sorry the second sentence paragraph 46 i'll repeat i'll repeat what you say to the best of my recollection i was not provided with copies of any reviews
00:37:46 provided with copies of any reviews undertaken by the kctmo and my question was did you ever ask for them
00:37:53 to be honest i can't say i did or i didn't now you refer to getting tick sheets or copies of documents earlier on if you were getting copies of tick sheets which you explained earlier with the result of the
00:38:04 explained earlier with the result of the in-house reviews done by the by the tmo what are you referring to here
00:38:09 here when you say i was not provided with copies of any reviews
00:38:14 i was from my recollection i was i saw tick sheets of like a health and safety document walking around the building
00:38:25 walking around the building whether they i sorry i can't answer the question because looking at this now no i don't know right i'm just trying to reconcile what you said earlier with your statement you say i was not provided with copies
00:38:36 you say i was not provided with copies of any reviews undertaken but you do say you were provided with tick sheets on fra actions which were they had an in-house system which would tick off um actions from the
00:38:48 which would tick off um actions from the risk assessment and i cannot remember what their system in-house system was called
00:38:52 called right but that's the limit of the in-house review you saw is that right you didn't see any reviews which which actually exercised in the fra kind of judgment no i follow now um if we
00:39:03 no i follow now um if we um uh move on to the question of minuted meetings uh if we go to the consultant's brief we
00:39:14 if we go to the consultant's brief we and that's at cst 5 cst 705 page 7 paragraph 1.8 this is the consultants brief july 2010
00:39:25 this is the consultants brief july 2010 you can see that there's a heading client meetings and it says regular meetings we'll leave it blown up please if we can thank you regular meetings will be held
00:39:36 thank you regular meetings will be held between the project manager the hns advisor
00:39:39 advisor and the consultant to discuss possible issues monitor progress and review the service provided the meetings will be held monthly and will be chaired by the tmo project manager and minuted by the tmo h
00:39:50 manager and minuted by the tmo h advisor and the consultant will be expected to attend at no additional cost did those monthly meetings actually take place
00:39:58 place wherever they were meeting was required i attended it whether that was monthly i can't remember well it says regular meetings and then to be held monthly did they happen monthly i would say no not monthly
00:40:09 monthly i would say no not monthly right did you not insist that you should have monthly meetings with the tmo as provided for here no i was in regular contact with them if
00:40:22 no i was in regular contact with them if they had a problem they would contact me straight away i was always available on the phone and emails
00:40:29 emails when you started uh working for the tmo uh or with the tmo as it were who was the tmo project manager as contemplated by this provision i'm going to say janice ray who was the
00:40:42 i'm going to say janice ray who was the health and safety advisor
00:40:46 janice ray i see so she held both roles as contemplated by this clause i can't think of a project manager
00:40:54 manager was there anybody else other than janice ray that you would meet regularly or irregularly no
00:41:04 when you did meet regularly or irregularly were there minutes of the meetings yes and who took those minutes
00:41:12 minutes and did you see them after the meetings she would always send a copy on yes right and who else was at these meetings um i'm just trying to think
00:41:24 um i'm just trying to think whoever was there would be minuted into the meetings but i don't think there was anyone
00:41:28 anyone regularly you will that attended the meetings with us right the reason i'm curious about this mr stakes
00:41:35 mr stakes is that we have as i understand it never seen
00:41:38 seen minutes of meetings like this monthly meetings or irregular meetings held pursuant to clause 1.8 of the
00:41:47 the contract well we had there was there would have been minutes but they would have been emailed to me or i would pick a hard copy up from janice
00:41:56 janice next time i was in the office but majority of the time as far as i remember they were emailed right i wouldn't have printed those off right well let's
00:42:08 right well let's park that can i then turn to a different topic which is other work that you carried out for the tmo in the course of your contract
00:42:17 contract or contracts
00:42:22 can we go please first first to your first statement page 10.
00:42:29 let's look together at paragraphs 28 to 30 on pages 10 and 11. and summarizing what you say there
00:42:40 between 2010 and 2017 during which time cs stakes was carrying out fras for the kctm across their portfolio properties i was at various points requested and then there's a list of
00:42:53 requested and then there's a list of things
00:42:54 things that you're asked to do and you set those out
00:42:58 those out over the page onto page 11 let's just do that
00:43:01 that very quickly uh now going back to uh uh
00:43:09 the um going back to page 10 please paragraph 28 um you say i was at various points requested
00:43:17 requested to do those things there uh did you charge extra for those yes you did and how would you bill did you build
00:43:26 you build right and what was the agree what was the rate
00:43:29 the rate that you build that they in the initial contract if it was an fra it was pre-determined whether it was a new one or a review
00:43:40 new one or a review um then there was letters were a set rate or if it was visits to a building or a survey if you want to call it that sort of uh
00:43:51 if you want to call it that sort of uh that
00:43:52 that um undertaking it was a reasonable rate and if you uh go to
00:44:04 if you uh go to uh your statement at paragraph 24 please on page nine just back a page we can see that you cover this subject on uh in little roman four of paragraph 24.
00:44:19 you've quoted it and what you say there you're quoting section 1.9 and you say i was required to offer fire safety help advice and support to the tma managers employees and as
00:44:30 employees and as and when requested
00:44:33 or as and when uh that's right is it yes yes um that did that include commenting on the tmos fire safety strategy uh in january or february 2013
00:44:46 uh in january or february 2013 which we've seen i think that was done as a favor that was done as a favor was it right
00:44:51 it right uh why did you do a favor why not charge for that i i cannot remember who was charged for or not but i would think it would be done as a favor
00:45:01 favor to look could you look at this but please you would have to check my invoice and i would not know fair enough were you ever asked to comment on the tmo's june 2017 fire safety strategy
00:45:15 should i show it to you yes please tma double zero eight four seven three two four
00:45:26 this i should tell you was still in draft at the time of the grenfell tower of fire
00:45:30 of fire okay it's by my facial expression i'm just on the workout dates yes yeah i i just understand that um just looking at page one uh is that a document just looking at it
00:45:41 uh is that a document just looking at it you think you've ever seen before
00:45:50 it could be i'm i've had that thing i could be confusing with the other one but i'm going to say probably i could have seen it
00:46:01 have seen it um now you were i think involved in the fire safety training of esa's estate services assistance weren't you
00:46:09 you yes and you've set out in your second witness statement page nine paragraphs 28 to 33 no need to look at them the details about the training that you gave uh or rather that you provided to
00:46:22 gave uh or rather that you provided to janice
00:46:23 janice provided with janice ray to the esa's in early december 2016. did did you ever provide any other training to esa's other than
00:46:34 to esa's other than on that one occasion there was two occasions one though right you say two occasions i think so one was
00:46:41 one was yeah so two different locations i'm sure there was
00:46:45 there was other than those were there any other occasions when you provided training no to esa's can i then ask you about your role in relation to the refurbishment
00:46:56 relation to the refurbishment uh first statement page 11 paragraph 30.4
00:47:00 30.4 roman four you say there
00:47:08 we'll pick it up in the second line i was not at any time contracted retained or appointed either on behalf of salvos or cs stokes in relation to the tower or any other tmo property then roman four to undertake any ongoing consultancy and
00:47:21 to undertake any ongoing consultancy and or supervisory role in relation to the refurbishment but it's right isn't it though notwithstanding what you say there that that you would advise those involved in the refurbishment
00:47:32 the refurbishment on discrete fire safety issues if you were asked by the tmo but by the tmo if you were asked by the tmo you would nonetheless advise
00:47:41 advise if yes because that was part of my contract yes
00:47:47 and there's one example of that i'll show it to you your advice to steve blake of ryden about fire compartmentation which you cover in your second witness statement
00:48:01 perhaps that's an unfair question without showing you your statement can we look at your second witness statement please page 43
00:48:14 uh look at paragraph 167 under the heading discussion with simon blake his name is actually stephen but not to worry item 220 of progress
00:48:25 but not to worry item 220 of progress meeting number 20 notes would appear to relate to item 3.10.2 of progress meeting number 19. that item states sb noted that the inspector had identified areas of existing fire compartmentation which
00:48:36 existing fire compartmentation which needed addressing it was discussed and agreed that although these works were not required under the current contract it may be beneficial to the tmo to carry out these works
00:48:45 works to improve the condition of the building sb
00:48:48 sb and steve blake to drop a proposal identifying scope cost and program implications of undertaking this additional work to be issued to cw and artelia cw will then review the necessary review
00:49:00 cw will then review the necessary review the necessity of these works with tmo fire risk assessor and instructor accordingly i believe this relates to a question raised with me about electrical rises located on either side of the two lifts at each level because there was an
00:49:12 at each level because there was an unbroken concrete floor slab in place i.e no holes or gaps and i was not made aware of any intended works i advised simon blake that no further work was required
00:49:25 did you know what why you were being asked to advise ryden on matters such as fire compartmentation during the refurbishment did he not come from the minutes of the building control officer
00:49:36 building control officer well i'm asking you what's your recollection what's your evidence about why
00:49:40 why you were being asked to advise ryden on matters such as far compartmentation you'd have to ask the tmo who instructed me to do it but that's the understanding of where the location
00:49:52 the understanding of where the location was is part of the risk assessment because that was the floor slab within those
00:49:57 those sealed risers and no work was needed i see
00:50:03 see is that is that a good example of you providing
00:50:08 providing self-contained advice on particular issues to ryden during the refurbishment what that yes were there other occasions on which you did say
00:50:20 nothing doesn't spring tomorrow and what's up with claire williams the person who had generated the request uh for you to give this advice to ryden nor did it come from ryden
00:50:32 nor did it come from ryden it would only have come through janice ray and he ever worked she instructed me because
00:50:36 because that was a point of contact okay and what about claire williams did you ever speak to claire williams yes did she ever give you instructions if she did ask anything it always went back through janice ray because
00:50:48 back through janice ray because that's where my invoices went i see do you remember what circumstances claire williams would ask you to give advice
00:50:57 advice in relation to matters arising in the refurbishment none spring to mind but i'm sure there would there was some over the time
00:51:04 the time let's turn to the subject of fire safety management and particularly the salvus fire risk management report that you may remember from september 2010 uh to 2009. um do you remember advising
00:51:17 uh to 2009. um do you remember advising the tmo on fire safety management generally
00:51:19 generally no because that was not undertake um it was undertaken by salvis and i was never there
00:51:24 there so it was not part of your rematch no do you want do you agree that you would be required to assess the tma's fire safety management even as a fire risk assessor yes and hence the letter
00:51:35 hence the letter we talked about earlier and to take it shortly you were familiar with the principal enshrined in pas 79
00:51:43 pas 79 which would make that clear that that was part of your role yes yes and just for the record that's clause 16
00:51:51 clause 16 romans 1 and 2 on page 50 of cta 703
00:51:58 how did you assess the tmos fire safety management systems reading the service letter asking the questions in the letter that i asked for
00:52:11 questions in the letter that i asked for [Music]
00:52:12 [Music] and practically asking people what would happen
00:52:16 happen did you do that frequently or just once at the start of your uh relationship with the tmo in 2010 well as cs stakes limited
00:52:27 well as cs stakes limited it would be ongoing right it would be ongoing with it well i'd like to think it they would tell me if there was anything that they changed in their policies or procedures now let's dig a bit further into the
00:52:39 now let's dig a bit further into the detail can we go to sal6013 please this is a copy of the fire risk assessment management report uh completed by steve wayne of
00:52:51 uh completed by steve wayne of salvas on the 22nd of september 2009
00:52:58 and we can see that
00:53:03 uh at the end of the document which i won't go to for present purposes
00:53:13 is it right that you had no role in preparing this report correct do you remember seeing this report
00:53:20 report uh before now i think i must have asked for this or had looked at this when i won the contract for the medium right
00:53:31 won the contract for the medium right because i would have asked for it what was the
00:53:33 was the in place who gave it to you did salvas give it to you or did janice ray give it to you
00:53:39 to you i'm going to say janice ray because i wouldn't have thought salvos would no do you remember seeing it when you carried out your fra force elvis uh or as part of salvas
00:53:50 force elvis uh or as part of salvas on grenfell tower on 30th of september 2009
00:53:55 2009 no it had been produced the week before so i needs me to ask you whether you'd seen it i wouldn't no what about when you started work for the
00:54:07 what about when you started work for the tmo in autumn 2010 october 2010 well i would probably have asked for it then right and at that time did you read it yes i'd like to thought so let's look at
00:54:18 yes i'd like to thought so let's look at page 13.
00:54:24 page 13. this is the start of the action plan and you can see the date on the top right hand corner uh 22nd september 09 that's the date of the assessment
00:54:36 assessment and just looking at the scheme of the document it's entitled safety management and training action plan and
00:54:47 the uh uh and and the document is divided into columns paragraph number priority rating action required to reduce risk
00:54:58 action required to reduce risk and then a traffic light system down the middle and then action by name action required by date reassessed by and revised risk category
00:55:08 um you can see that the items marked in red are those that indicate that they're in a statutory breach can't you i don't know what the traffic lights mean right well let me help you with that if you go down to the end of the document
00:55:19 you go down to the end of the document please at page 19 you will see key to color coding on the right hand side red statutory
00:55:30 on the right hand side red statutory breach amber best practice strict guidance green consultant recommendation additional life risk
00:55:36 life risk protection and while we're on that page cast your right to the left hand side and see also key to priority rating and the five
00:55:43 the five levels there one is immediate action required within 24 hours two short-term action required within one week three undertake action within one month four action within three months or agreed plan within six months five
00:55:56 or agreed plan within six months five review as part of business plan now going back to the to page 13 items in red marked are marked as such where there is a statutory breach that's what's intended
00:56:07 statutory breach that's what's intended all right yes
00:56:11 you would therefore have been aware that looking at this document if you scroll down from 13 slowly through to 19
00:56:20 if you scroll down you can see the red ones as we go you don't have to count them up i've already done that if you go to the pages 15 16 17 18
00:56:34 17 18 and then 19. i have counted and double counted again and arrived at a total of 19 red areas where the tma was considered
00:56:45 red areas where the tma was considered by salvas to be in statutory breach
00:56:52 and if you look at the second column
00:56:56 which is the priority rating column uh you can see that the majority of those items flagged red have a priority rating of three or four which meant that action needed to be taken within one month
00:57:09 taken within one month or within three months or a plan agreed within six months do you agree with that yes now once you started work for the tmo as c.s stokes and associates
00:57:21 for the tmo as c.s stokes and associates limited in 2010 did you ever ask janice ray for confirmation as to whether the issues identified in this report had been addressed particularly the red ones
00:57:32 ones um looking at this didn't isn't my letter of september 2010 covering most of these items well we'll come to that
00:57:43 we'll come to that but is that your answer yes so when you sat down and wrote that letter you had this document in front of you did you no i don't think i've seen this or if i did have seen this i would have asked for
00:57:54 have seen this i would have asked for it whether i was ever given it right so when you um when you referred to your 27th of september 2010 letter a moment ago
00:58:05 you weren't intending to convey the idea that that letter was a response or a follow-up on this document just to be clear
00:58:11 clear thank you
00:58:15 is it right then that when you started working for the tmo in in reality october 2010 you didn't consider how the actions
00:58:26 2010 you didn't consider how the actions about
00:58:27 about fire safety management of the tmo had been remedied since this report had been written the previous year to be honest i can't remember seeing this report when i worked for salvos right is it right there for that you
00:58:39 right is it right there for that you when as part of your first job did not look at or know about the 19 statutory breaches that should have been actioned within six months well no because i would have asked why why wasn't they there
00:58:50 why wasn't they there if i'd have known of this right
00:58:55 and looking at your document at the bottom what you showed me earlier this says
00:58:59 says rev 8 on it as well it does this is rev eight which all that tells you is that as of the 22nd of september 2009 when this document was produced
00:59:10 produced uh it had been through eight revisions so
00:59:14 so exhaustively peer reviewed yeah as a document
00:59:18 document uh my question that follows from that is uh
00:59:21 uh did janice ray he explained to you uh the notwithstanding that salvas had produced this report with 19 statutory breaches on it in the september of 2009 some or all of those had been uh
00:59:35 2009 some or all of those had been uh cleared off by then no a question in my mind is as i was writing the documents and there was a management part in salvas why wasn't i
00:59:45 wasn't i highlighted this to me well that's what i asked you earlier it wasn't was it well no no no and and you answered this a moment ago only a week later you produced your
00:59:56 only a week later you produced your first fire risk assessment for grenfell tower
00:59:59 tower well with salvus and i take it that you didn't have this document in your hands um can we go to uh rbk3052534 please
01:00:23 this is an email from janice ray of the 12th of october 2010 to gary soto or sodu of london fire copyright to and much more and she's at rbkc
01:00:36 more and she's at rbkc housing and forwarding something called friday's meeting with the tmo and i'll just show you the first few paragraphs you don't see the email at the time so you i'm not going to proceed on the basis that you did but it says
01:00:47 on the basis that you did but it says this
01:00:48 this one cs stakes and associates limited appointed to carry out the fire risk assessments on the council's medium risk blocks assessment program likely to begin on
01:00:59 assessment program likely to begin on site week commencing 18th october 2010 and aim to complete in six months two aim to use same approach as before carl's standard pro forma to be used
01:01:11 carl's standard pro forma to be used copy provided to fire safety team at the meeting
01:01:14 meeting and no comments received at this time recommendations to be colour coded and prioritized residents to be advised in writing in advance monthly progress meetings planned with consultants etc
01:01:25 planned with consultants etc however the intention is for the consultant to do as much work in advance of the program commencing as possible to establish the extent of our fire safety planned preventative maintenance contract and
01:01:36 preventative maintenance contract and associated asset registered registers are inspection regimes fire safety training programs policy on installation of smoke alarm peeps etc
01:01:45 peeps etc we are hopeful that this will result in fewer recommendations being made and will allow us to focus our attention on the significant findings now i want to focus on the words however
01:01:56 now i want to focus on the words however onwards the intention is the consultant to do as much as as much work in advance of the program commencing as possible in respect of that advanced work did you do that
01:02:07 that advanced work did you do that advanced work this seems to be referring to most of the items in that the letter that you showed me earlier the letter of the 27th of september 2010
01:02:18 the letter of the 27th of september 2010 is that
01:02:19 is that yes i see um did you do advanced work on those items yes and what did you do to try and find out as much information as possible
01:02:31 as much information as possible to put information into the boxes and headings of the risk assessment that would cover the items right did you produce a report i have no
01:02:42 right did you produce a report i have no idea
01:02:42 idea i mean i asked that letter i can't remember
01:02:46 remember what came back from it right but whatever came back i would have put in the risk assessment i see so the idea was it your understanding that you would do all that work
01:02:55 work as proprietary work for the first risk for the risk assessments as opposed to for the purposes of a particular report yes i follow and was any of that work focusing on fire safety management of the tmo
01:03:08 fire safety management of the tmo rather than specific items in specific buildings
01:03:11 buildings um didn't it ask for the
01:03:15 fire safety training of caretakers as they were and things like that now let's uh look at cst 403061
01:03:28 cst 403061 page one again this is your 27th of september letter
01:03:36 [Music] this predates the email from janice ray to gary soto or and the uh letter says
01:03:49 uh letter says under the or in the second paragraph the following items that issue are the basis of this letter employee fire training fire and emergency information for residents routine in-house fire inspection safety
01:04:00 routine in-house fire inspection safety inspections etc was any of those to do with um fire safety management of the within the tmo or was these were these all
01:04:10 all topics for your fras well employee training is the management side of it yes
01:04:17 of it yes so some of them would cover management yes
01:04:22 any others
01:04:25 well management would cover fire and emergency information for residents which should be in their handbooks
01:04:38 and our policies contractors policies etc
01:04:42 etc and
01:04:50 yes looking at uh th that item was was that the only time when you considered the tmo's arrangements in respect to fire safety management
01:05:03 in respect to fire safety management well we undertook some training at a later date it was ongoing i mean looking at this there's another seven pages here that i haven't seen at the moment but uh it would cover management would
01:05:14 but uh it would cover management would cover most things even down to the fact that you know what the residential's the residents handbooks when a resident moved into the building what were the uh instructions what were they told
01:05:26 uh instructions what were they told things like that going back to the salvas fra management report from september 2009 sal fives sales
01:05:37 sal fives sales six zeroes 13 please and go to page five in that document you can see there at the bottom of page five
01:05:47 uh and over to page six bottom of page five it says uh at one point one uh lack of a tmo fire safety policy
01:05:59 uh lack of a tmo fire safety policy statement
01:06:01 statement and you've got lack of an anti lack or or inadequate tmo policy and arrangements lack of inadequate recording systems eg logbook and or fire safety manual
01:06:12 logbook and or fire safety manual and then over the top onto page six 1.4 lack of ineffective managerial audit of fire safety arrangements those are the hazards that are identified by salvas in that
01:06:24 are identified by salvas in that september 2009 report and you can see what is uh uh in the existing control measures columns in each case if we scroll back to page
01:06:36 in each case if we scroll back to page five in respective 1.1
01:06:40 and i want to focus on the italics it says there does not appear to be an overall tmo fire safety policy statement setting out the organization's strategic fire safety objectives including reference to achieving full
01:06:51 including reference to achieving full compliance with the requirements of the regulatory reform safety order 2005 wherever it applies to premises managed and or occupied by the tmo and which is formally endorsed by the chief executive on behalf of the
01:07:02 by the chief executive on behalf of the tmo and then on the next one 1.2 there does not appear to be an adequate policy and supporting arrangements to explain how the tma will meet the objectives set out in any future strategic policy
01:07:13 out in any future strategic policy statement
01:07:13 statement to ensure suitable and sufficient fire safety is maintained at all times throughout the tma's property portfolio no specific policy and arrangements for fire risk assessment appointing fire safety assistance fire
01:07:25 appointing fire safety assistance fire prevention general fire precautions use of dangerous substances maintenance training and cooperation and coordination all of which are required by law and then underneath
01:07:36 then underneath that in italics there does not appear to be any contingency plans in place for matters that may immediately and adversely affect fire safety arrangements such as defective fire doors fire alarms etc an up-to-date business continuity
01:07:47 etc an up-to-date business continuity plan
01:07:48 plan disaster recovery plan was not available for review at the time of the assessment and then under one point three uh folder not available at the time of assessment no fire safety manual is recommended in
01:07:59 no fire safety manual is recommended in bs
01:08:00 bs 9999 and then over the top of page six uh no i'm summarizing no senior managerial order to fire safety arrangements adopted by the tma to ensure that office fire
01:08:12 by the tma to ensure that office fire safety related policy and procedures are being carried out diligently and in accord with set standards to meet the organization's strategic
01:08:20 strategic via safety objectives now i've read that to you at some length uh when you started your role as the tmos fire risk assessor in october 2010
01:08:36 in october 2010 uh
01:08:39 uh did you know about these weaknesses in the tmos
01:08:44 the tmos fire safety management system no can i ask you to look please at cst404383
01:09:02 this is an email from janice ray to you on the 28th of september 2010 that's the day after your letter to her that we've been looking at
01:09:13 that we've been looking at which again followed on from the meeting you had with her on the 24th of september 2010 and as an attachment and the attachment is management fra action plan tmo fra management report completed
01:09:26 tmo fra management report completed 2009.
01:09:29 that is the salvus fire safety management report that we've just been looking at in some detail mr stokes so it looks as if you did receive this document from janice ray it does yes did when you received it did
01:09:42 it does yes did when you received it did you read it
01:09:46 well i would presume i would have read read it but i would have liked her i think that there would have been some actions signed off as well seems this is a year later indeed um she sent it to you do you remember what you
01:09:58 sent it to you do you remember what you did next
01:09:59 did next no do you remember whether you opened it read it were horrified rang her up and fat and asked her what had been done since september 2009. an honest answer would be no i can't remember
01:10:11 would be no i can't remember and and then and the question is is uh why would you not have done such a thing because i have no record of you doing so i would have thought i would have spoken to her on the phone but
01:10:23 to her on the phone but a lot of the ques i'm guessing here most of the
01:10:27 of the information would have been started acted
01:10:30 acted upon i would have thought right she sent this to you without any message at all
01:10:36 it contains 19 statutory breaches with as we've as we've seen did this not trigger a conversation between you and miss ray about the
01:10:47 between you and miss ray about the extent to which the tmo had cured any of those 19 statutory breaches
01:10:53 breaches in the one year and two weeks since the date of that report i would like to think it would have done and my letter to her asking for questions on items
01:11:05 to her asking for questions on items to clarify those points well your letter of course predated the day on which you received that document after you received the the report did you ask her
01:11:16 you ask her whether they had a fire safety policy statement for example to be honest i can't answer that question honestly because i can't remember
01:11:25 remember so i would like to i think i would have done so
01:11:29 done so with your same answer pertain to the question did you have a policy and arrangement to set out your statutory fire
01:11:35 fire safety obligations yes what about contingency plans in place for matters that may immediately and adversely affect fire safety arrangements if i read to you i would have the answer
01:11:47 if i read to you i would have the answer would have been what was the outcomes for all these for the year before but i can't remember did you ask her whether there were senior managerial audit arrangements now
01:11:59 senior managerial audit arrangements now in place
01:12:00 in place which had not been in place the year before in respect of fire safety arrangements i can't remember right i mean i'm puzzled by why you can't remember i know it's a long time ago but would it
01:12:11 know it's a long time ago but would it not have been extremely shocking to read to receive this document without any explanation that's why i'm puzzling because if i've had this i would have tried to have done something about it
01:12:23 something about it and i would like to think i would have had a document that said this has been actioned but i don't seem to have had that document or i can't remember and we see no record of you going back to her and
01:12:34 no record of you going back to her and asking her that very question can you explain that no i can't mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is um mr stakes we'll
01:12:45 yes i think it is um mr stakes we'll have a short break now and we'll come back
01:12:47 back resume that half of three please and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're away from the room right thank you very
01:13:02 much
01:13:06 all right i'll first three then please thank you
01:30:38 yes would you ask mr stokes to come back in please okay
01:30:56 all right mr stokes okay thank you keep going yes
01:30:59 going yes yes mr chairman thank you mr stakes i'd like now to turn to the fras themselves and first a little bit of an overview if i can um once you were appointed by the tmo
01:31:10 um once you were appointed by the tmo can you confirm that you carried out uh five in total five fire risk assessments for grenfell tower and i'll just go through the dates um 29th december 2010 yes
01:31:25 um 29th december 2010 yes 20th of november 2012 17th of october 2014. yes
01:31:34 yes yes uh 26th of april 2016 and 20th of june 2016. that sounds correct
01:31:41 correct yes were you the only fire risk assessor for the tmo between 2010 and 2017 do you think as far as i know right have you ever heard of a gentleman called
01:31:52 heard of a gentleman called leon taylor no right
01:31:56 were you aware that he completed a fire risk assessment of grenfell tower based on an inspection he conducted in june 2014 on behalf of repairs direct did you know that no well i'll be honest
01:32:09 did you know that no well i'll be honest i was given a supplementary document last night that had a name on it right but i have not read it all but i did know that there was something else that was in there right well let's see if i and this may
01:32:20 right well let's see if i and this may not be the document but can we look at psc
01:32:23 psc 701 please
01:32:31 there is a virus assessment assessment for grenfell tower done by leon taylor as you can see in the second box on the 14th of june 2014 with the suggested review date of the
01:32:43 with the suggested review date of the following uh a year later uh is this a document you've seen before no it was a summary i was given last late last night uh oh right a summary of
01:32:55 late last night uh oh right a summary of what
01:32:56 what uh from um mr todd on a supplementary um oh i see okay i see a supplementary report from mr todd
01:33:06 todd yes sorry sir yes so you don't know what this is no uh now in respect of your fire risk assessments um can you can you explain uh
01:33:19 um can you can you explain uh why you were asked to carry out a fire risk assessment of grenfell tower on the 29th of december 2010 2010 when you yourself had completed one only a year before on the 30th of september 2009.
01:33:33 on the 30th of september 2009. no and given that the tmo's approach at the time as we've seen was to carry out an fra every two years i i just as i undertook instructions as
01:33:44 i i just as i undertook instructions as always given i see you didn't second you didn't question the instructions you didn't ask janice ray why am i doing a fr risk assessment of grenfell tower i did one only last year no right was there any discussion of
01:33:57 no right was there any discussion of that at all you just carried out your instructions um i just taken over i mean it was just one of those things that i was trying to please i suppose but i didn't question can i ask you to look
01:34:10 i didn't question can i ask you to look please at your first witness statement at page 18 paragraph 54 at the bottom of page of the page paragraph 54
01:34:22 paragraph 54 and
01:34:26 first witness statement page 18
01:34:30 paragraph 54 you say there that the 2014 fra was the first fra undertaken whilst the refurbishment was underway
01:34:41 underway and the april 2016 fra and june 2016 fra were undertaken in short succession around the time the refurbishment was completed were you able to carry out a suitable and sufficient fra even though
01:34:52 suitable and sufficient fra even though the refurbishment had started yes you were and in that in respect of that
01:34:58 that fire risk assessment let's look at
01:35:05 cst3030043
01:35:11 this is the letter you wrote on the 17th of september 2014 to janice ray subject grenfell tower grenfell road janice thank you for asking me to visit
01:35:22 janice thank you for asking me to visit the above premises where refurbishment work is being undertaken i'm due to undertake a review of the building's fire risk assessment fra next tuesday the 23rd september so any answers to the following points will
01:35:34 answers to the following points will assist me
01:35:35 assist me with the fra review if the answers can be provided by monday of next week the 22nd
01:35:39 22nd i will incorporate them within the reviewed fra otherwise the questions will be asked as part of the significant findings of the fra
01:35:48 fra i have numbered the questions and they're set out on the bottom of that page and then the next page and i think there are 10 pages in all of of questions that you asked her
01:35:59 of questions that you asked her would you undertake this kind of site visit before conducting each fra or only this one this is site specific to this one why was that because the refurbishment was going i i've
01:36:11 refurbishment was going i i've been undertaken and i wouldn't ask for building regs application forms etc or the london fiber gave comments on them on a building that no work was being undertaken on did you
01:36:23 no work was being undertaken on did you visit the building because she asked you to
01:36:25 to or because you felt it was necessary to do so given that there was a refurbishment in progress isn't this a scheduled review
01:36:35 this would be 14 wouldn't this be the two-year period to schedule well a little bit before uh this is the last uh the last fra for grenfell tower you
01:36:48 uh the last fra for grenfell tower you signed off on the 29th of uh november 20 sorry 20th of november 2012.
01:36:57 and this is this is september 2014 so it's not quite two years but you shrug it's a reasonable time period
01:37:05 period so this was a scheduled review is and is this right it was because there was refurbishment in place that you felt it necessary to visit no this is a scheduled review isn't it
01:37:16 no this is a scheduled review isn't it do you visit yeah i am due to undertake a review of the building slightly across purposes would you undertake a site visit whenever you were doing a scheduled review
01:37:28 if i was to review i would always have to go to the building to undertake a review of the fra regardless of whether there was a refurbishment in place yes if he was on the program to be reviewed the time periods given i would always
01:37:40 the time periods given i would always have to visit the premises right when you completed um the risk assessments we've um we've looked at the five for grenfell tower
01:37:49 tower how long would it normally take you to complete
01:37:52 complete such a report
01:37:56 the report or the actually walk around the building well um start to finish uh take the 2012 fra for granville tower as an example
01:38:07 example justin is an example how long would it how long would it take you start to finish to walk around the building say four hours and then probably the same to write it up
01:38:18 write it up right so each each fra would take an eight hours a total of eight hours yes right give or take and and what about drafting the significant action plan yeah that includes the writing
01:38:29 yeah that includes the writing i see so eight hours in total now is it right that you charged 410 pounds plus v80 for every new fra and 320 pounds plus v80 for an fra
01:38:40 fra and 320 pounds plus v80 for an fra review
01:38:41 review if that's what it says on your document yes i it changed each year i think i was allowed to put it up by a small amount right it's that's what you say in your witness statements paragraph uh paragraph 22 your first
01:38:53 paragraph uh paragraph 22 your first witness statement so i'm taking it that that's correct yes right um it's right isn't it that whether you're undertaking a new fra or an fra review
01:39:04 undertaking a new fra or an fra review there'd be no difference in your information gathering or assessment process is that right correct so if there was no difference well let me ask you this way would it take you less time to do an fra review
01:39:16 take you less time to do an fra review than it would uh to do a new fra yes right and why is that because i'd know the layout of the building so um for instance if i'd never been to the
01:39:29 um for instance if i'd never been to the building before i'd have to work out say where a lift motor room was how do i get the ladders for it how do i get keys where if i've already been there before i would know that an fb2
01:39:40 before i would know that an fb2 key opened that locker their ladders are there if i went up i'd know with the layout inside so it'd be a lot easier and um simplified to do it that way
01:39:51 simplified to do it that way yes i see so the saving of time been doing an fra review would be on the the physical visit to the building rather than in the creation of the report or is that is that not correct that's correct and also actually access to the building
01:40:03 also actually access to the building where is the building right now i want to look at some general questions arising on the fras next if i may
01:40:10 may across all of your fire risk assessments we've seen a lot of the same text from year to year is it right that when you drafted an fra you would cut and paste text from the previous versions correct this is not because nothing has changed
01:40:23 this is not because nothing has changed right um and is it right that you would only update or change sections where you you have
01:40:29 you have obtained new information correct otherwise the same text from the previous fra would appear with it if nothing had changed i mean the the structure of the building in the for instance grandfather is still
01:40:41 instance grandfather is still a concrete building concrete floors for concrete walls unless right yeah this cutting and pasting
01:40:50 pasting uh mr todd is critical of that he says that's poor or inappropriate practice would you agree with that if nothing has changed you could change some words in it but
01:41:02 some words in it but it's still the same right would you also copy and paste material from other fras for other buildings try not to try not to but if it was a similar
01:41:16 try not to but if it was a similar um i'm just trying to think of something in one building that would be uh similar
01:41:24 to if there was that mobile t um telephone mask on the roof and i'd already written that up in one build and i would take it over to the new new one and alter it so it was site
01:41:37 new one and alter it so it was site specific to that building rather than re-drafting a whole two three four paragraphs yes let's just see if we can illustrate this with an example
01:41:48 this with an example yes um
01:41:52 if we go please to your 26th of april 2016 fra for grenfell tower that's at cst 40310 at page one [Music]
01:42:10 there's page one yes uh and if you um
01:42:18 look down page one by scrolling up a little bit please to see the next part of it lower down your screen you see it says area is not covered all the private residential apartments and
01:42:29 private residential apartments and balconies
01:42:31 balconies yes but grenfell tower didn't have any balconies did it not on the apartments no so where did they where did those words come from the balconies on there would be um there was a balcony
01:42:42 was a balcony at the lower level right uh with uh
01:42:50 if i call it the caretaker's office it went out the back and the staircase came down and there was an open balcony at the back
01:42:59 let's stick with this fra can we go to page 19.
01:43:10 page 19. uh look at um section 11 pest control question is there suitable control of any pest infestations tick yes and then halfway down the comments or observations where pigeon
01:43:22 comments or observations where pigeon netting has been erected to cover flat balconies from a visual inspection from the ground there appear to be no areas where this pigeon netting was damaged and it appeared well fitted
01:43:35 yes at the time of this assessment there was no access to each flat balcony as these are private areas
01:43:44 you see that yes yes i mean there's no pigeon netting what's there the pigeon netting was over there was some pigeon netting on that i can see where i've gone wrong there yes
01:43:54 there yes mr i mean to be fair to you mr todd picked that up in his first report okay i mean that's a slam dunk isn't it cut and paste from another building yes yes i should have altered that to balconies at the back and the root level and in fact
01:44:08 and the root level and in fact that the october 2014 fra and your june 2016 fra
01:44:13 2016 fra contained exactly the same text didn't it yes and the balconies at the lower level had gone by now it was
01:44:19 was being ripped out it was a house of dwelling
01:44:22 dwelling but you accept that oh yes that was yeah can you explain how come when you were doing your fra's full grenfell tower on three occasions you introduced the pigeon netting text
01:44:34 you introduced the pigeon netting text if i can call it that honest answer would be pest control nothing's changed and just left it in and not read it not read it yes yeah and that means and
01:44:47 not read it yes yeah and that means and includes not reading it when signing it off
01:44:49 off yes
01:44:59 now sticking with your well let's go to your 2014 fra if we can please cst 403157
01:45:11 page 3 at the top of your fra there you've listed uh if you go to page three thank you yes we've listed as the responsible person
01:45:22 we've listed as the responsible person the chief executive of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea uh why did you name the chief executive of the rbkc as the responsible person
01:45:36 they are the landlords of the building and that's the person or the name title of the person who is a responsible person and of rbkc right who are the owners of the
01:45:49 of rbkc right who are the owners of the building
01:45:50 building so that was who you thought the responsible person was did you kensington rather than the tmo my memory is correct i asked this question uh the responsible person at the time
01:46:04 uh the responsible person at the time was it the tmo as the management company or
01:46:07 or the council put that one in as being told that's the person
01:46:19 the next one doubt sorry i do apologize the next one down building owners council of the uh royal barricans in chelsea yes did nobody tell you that in fact the responsible person under the rra was the
01:46:30 responsible person under the rra was the tmo
01:46:35 janice ray never come back to you and say you've got the responsible person wrong
01:46:38 wrong nope and the london fibergate never came back and they've audited these as well did you ever tell the chief executive of the royal borough of kensington chelsea that
01:46:50 of kensington chelsea that that uh that you regarded that rbkc was the responsible person for the buildings within the tma stock no
01:46:59 no why is that for me the the owners of the building are the responsible person the management agents are responsible as
01:47:10 the management agents are responsible as well and
01:47:10 well and uh the fire safety order but the ultimate
01:47:14 ultimate responsible person who would be the owner of the building right did you ever discuss that question with janice ray well i'm going to say yes i must have done because it's in the document and
01:47:26 done because it's in the document and she's reviewed the document numerous times and in some cases actually reviewed them because of corrections that she wanted to make in the documents
01:47:37 the documents did you ever supply your fire risk assessments directly to rbkc no why's that given that they were the responsible person because my contract was with the tmo and
01:47:49 because my contract was with the tmo and my point of contact with janice ray did you ever have any direct contact with rbkc staff once you'd become appointed as far risk assessor for the tmo stock
01:48:00 as far risk assessor for the tmo stock no right so what assumptions did you make about whether and in what circumstances rbkc would
01:48:09 would excuse me get to see this document
01:48:15 my thought process if the bill they needed capital money to do undertake any work they would have to go to the landlords and owners of the building who would be the responsible person
01:48:26 who would be the responsible person to undertake major refurbishments of that building right what did you understand to be the relationship between rbkc and the tmo so far at least
01:48:39 between rbkc and the tmo so far at least as your role is concerned the tmo with the managing agents of rbkc who manage the housing stock on the own building owners behalf
01:48:56 now um if if we can stick with this fire fire risk assessment this is the 2014 fire risk assessment uh and look please
01:49:07 fire risk assessment uh and look please at
01:49:08 at page two okay back a page uh you could see that that towards the top of your screen there's a title legal statement
01:49:19 and i'll read it to you it says legal statement underlined this risk assessment has been undertaken as a requirement of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005
01:49:31 reform fire safety order 2005 the enforcing authority i.e the police in quotation marks for the fso as are sorry are the fire safe
01:49:39 safe fire and rescue authority for the area in which the premises are situated article 25 of the fso it is the local fire and rescue service who therefore have the power to undertake an audit of the fire risk
01:49:50 undertake an audit of the fire risk assessment to determine if it is suitable and sufficient or not other agencies can ask if you have completed a fire risk assessment but it is not for them to view
01:49:58 view enforce or make judgment on you do not have to give a copy of your risk assessment to anybody not even the fire authority if you do give them a copy this could be used against you at a later
01:50:09 used against you at a later date and then you cite from article nine uh
01:50:13 uh of the fsa and then underneath the citation
01:50:16 citation of subsection six and seven you say this uh towards the bottom of your screen so legally you have to record any significant findings from the risk assessment if you fall into the categories of 6a to
01:50:28 if you fall into the categories of 6a to see above and have this available to be inspected
01:50:33 now you're not a trained lawyer are you no no nor were you authorized to give legal advice by any uh uk legal regulatory body were you correct
01:50:43 correct right can we go to colin todd's report please cta six zeros 11 cta 6011 page 76 paragraph 8.15
01:50:57 paragraph 8.15 and this is underneath the title in the middle of your screen legal statement within the fire risk assessment 8.15 i find the incorporation he says i find the incorporation of the above
01:51:08 find the incorporation of the above statement very surprising not only was it unnecessary and likely to be regarded as confrontational by inspecting officers of lfb when they studied the fras at the time of any audits the statement
01:51:19 at the time of any audits the statement is in my opinion incorrect as a matter of law
01:51:21 of law uh any audit of premises by a fire and rescue authority under the fire safety order actually begins with the study of the fra
01:51:28 the fra as he is a previous inspecting officer of a fire and rescue service i find it difficult to believe that this is not known
01:51:33 known to mr stokes mr stakes on reflection would you agree with mr todd's conclusion there
01:51:45 all i was stating there was as it says in the green book which is that you must undertake an fra
01:51:52 fra and the document says you must then have the significant findings available to be inspected
01:51:59 inspected well would you agree that any audit of premises by a fire and rescue authority under the rro begins with the study of the fra
01:52:09 the fra if they ask for it
01:52:13 i think we have the witness's evidence on this but i think we may all need to remember that mr todd isn't a lawyer either no and that's certainly an obvious point
01:52:24 no and that's certainly an obvious point we can we can make uh when he comes or ask him about when he comes to give evidence um let me ask you this were you aware of
01:52:33 aware of the lga let me show you the lga guide that i'm wanting to put to you is something slightly different hom3045964 page 42
01:52:46 page 42 part d paragraph 31.2 first sentence
01:52:56 the fire and rescue authority will examine the fire risk assessment at the time of any audit of the building were you aware of that principle so which one are we looking at please paragraph 31.2 okay so yeah the fire and
01:53:09 paragraph 31.2 okay so yeah the fire and rescue authority will examine the fire risk assessment at the time of any audit of the building were you aware of that principle yes but the fire safety order says that you only have to recall the significant findings
01:53:21 have to recall the significant findings as a matter of guidance did you not think
01:53:24 think that it was important for the enforcing authority to be able to view the fra totally and if they asked for it they would have been given it and assumed
01:53:36 both documents were provided but the fire safety order only requires that you record the significant findings and have them available for inspection
01:53:51 you see you said in your statement in your legal statement you do not have to give a copy of your risk assessment to anybody not even the fire authority correct now you don't say that you do
01:54:02 correct now you don't say that you do have to give them a copy of your risk assessment if they ask for it do you please can i see it again because what you've just read out is correct you do not have to give them a copy but
01:54:13 you do not have to give them a copy but you have to have it available for them to inspect at any time reasonable they wish to do so well well we can debate the terms i'm happy to show it to you again cst403157 just wondering if this is
01:54:25 cst403157 just wondering if this is going to help very much because mr stokes has told us what he understands the position mr todd has said what he understands the position to be
01:54:36 position to be but he's a matter of law really aren't they uh i'm not i'm not asking the witness about about legal matters what i'm asking about is why the statement appears there in circumstances where the guidance
01:54:47 in circumstances where the guidance says the opposite there's a guidance there's any guidance isn't it yes uh well let's let's let me ask you this
01:54:54 this um the legal statement that you've set out in your fras and we've seen them across all your fras
01:55:01 fras were not included in the fra of grenfell tower that you did when you were at salvas on the 30th of september 2009. that's right isn't it correct nor in the
01:55:13 that's right isn't it correct nor in the fire risk assessment template in any version of pas 79
01:55:20 sorry not in any past 79 version yeah no no no no no why did you think it necessary and appropriate to include such a statement in your fras that you did for the tma
01:55:34 because that is what the fire safety order
01:55:38 order actually asks for that you only have to be called the significant findings and they have to be available to be inspected did janice ray or anybody else from the tmo ask you to put a statement
01:55:51 ask you to put a statement no like this into your mras what made you do say because that's truthfully what the i understand my understanding the fire safety order is
01:56:02 the fire safety order is can we turn to the minutes of an rbkc tmo operations committee meeting on the 25th of november 2010 at rbk30 is 52563
01:56:16 now you were not there that's the first observation to make
01:56:22 as you can uh but you can see who was there
01:56:26 no that's the wrong uh that's page one what we need is page six in fact
01:56:33 in fact page one is a in fact a later meeting um at which these minutes were approved which is why that was there page six is the minutes of the 25th of november 2010
01:56:45 of the 25th of november 2010 meeting uh you weren't there but we can see who was janice ray was and she provided an update to the committee
01:56:53 committee on page eight if we can look at that please
01:56:57 please and you can see from that page that fire risk assessments item 7 is set out and she reports if you look at the last paragraph as follows jw confirmed that as expected to
01:57:10 follows jw confirmed that as expected to date significantly fewer recommendations were being made in relation to the medium risk blocks as compared with the high risk blocks jw advised that the tmo and rbkc were still liaising closely with the london fire
01:57:22 liaising closely with the london fire brigade lfb and we still had recently met to introduce our new consultant to them however it was clear that our new consultant was willing to challenge the fire brigade on our behalf if he would consider the requirements to be excessive and beyond what they could
01:57:34 excessive and beyond what they could reasonably ask of us in particular we had managed to get an agreement from the lfb that as of now when they visit stroke orders our premises do not have any concerns that would warrant a deficiency natives etc
01:57:47 would warrant a deficiency natives etc they will write to us advising us that at that point in time the building was quotes broadly compliant close quotes jw added that she was keen to include this information in the annual
01:57:58 this information in the annual health and safety report as this would start to give a more balanced picture of fire safety activity across the stock is it right that you were quotes willing to challenge the fire brigade on the
01:58:09 to challenge the fire brigade on the tma's behalf if i was asked to yes
01:58:15 and i'd be asked to and i believed it was correct right
01:58:29 did you ever have any discussions with janice ray about taking a more uh robust perhaps more contentious approach to the lfb
01:58:40 to the lfb no not in that context no are you able to explain from your understanding why janice ray thought that it was clear that you were willing to challenge the fire brigade
01:58:51 to challenge the fire brigade if you consider their requirements to be excessive
01:58:54 excessive maybe i'm guessing please ask mr ray but maybe because i've been like fire officer and i've been through the same training
01:59:00 training i would actually understand where they were coming from and actually explain back in their language
01:59:07 that's a fair answer but did it leads to this
01:59:11 this do you recall any particular topic arising
01:59:14 arising in respect of which you you were advising
01:59:18 advising a challenge to the lfb because you thought their requirements were excessive or unreasonable one that does spring to mind as leaseholder doors when was that when did that topic arise
01:59:30 when was that when did that topic arise given that this is november 2010 virtually around that time i see
01:59:37 now going back to the 2014 fra if i can please cst 403157 page three
01:59:46 we've looked at this page a number of times but let's get back to it i want now to look at the third heading from the top person consulted during the assessment and for this one it was paul stedman of
01:59:57 and for this one it was paul stedman of the tmo
01:59:59 the tmo and the residents of the building you see that yes um what did what did the residents of the building mean who had you consulted well if i
02:00:10 mean who had you consulted well if i could see anyone within the building or i could ask to look inside look at their flat and i would ask any problem any questions do you have any problems i see
02:00:21 problems i see so this was a a informal conversation with anybody you came across on your rounds as long as they lived in the building yes yes of course
02:00:30 course absolutely how do you know how would you know that they lived in the building i would ask do you live in the building right you take them with their word well if they then said yes i would say well is it possible i could see your
02:00:42 well is it possible i could see your flat door
02:00:43 flat door is it possible i could just look inside do you have any problems with your fire alarm system within in other fras we see that you consulted claire williams that's that that is what said in the april and june 2016 fras you don't need
02:00:56 april and june 2016 fras you don't need to go to them can you explain why claire williams was it was consulted for those fras that was which one dates please uh april and june 2016. because that was the time
02:01:08 and june 2016. because that was the time of the refurbishment and she was the project manager so i would i think i asked her first if she had any updates on any minutes building rig consultation
02:01:19 minutes building rig consultation anything like that are these consultations were they formal meetings or were they were they just people points people you could ask questions of as when you had questions
02:01:31 questions of as when you had questions a bit of the latter if um knowing mostly if it was done by an email
02:01:39 an email do you have any questions for me have you got these answers but they would know janus ray would always be copied in because that was their
02:01:46 their focus at the point of contact well i was going to ask you would you not consult janice ray given that she was the health and safety manager and also the person responsible for implementing the actions that you had
02:01:57 implementing the actions that you had identified in your significant finding schedules correct but so why not have a con why not be
02:02:03 not be her make her the consultation person
02:02:08 could be but then she would get the information from someone else but i could
02:02:11 could contact her as well as and this is 2016 did you say yeah well this one is 2000. but i'm asking you about 2016. yes but that's claire williams you've explained
02:02:22 that's claire williams you've explained that
02:02:23 that but in 2016 i had access to keystone so some of the information i could get direct from their system looking at what's on the screen this is 2014 paul stedman is identified
02:02:35 this is 2014 paul stedman is identified as the person consulted during the assessment he was an esa wasn't he yeah sorry yes a caretaker if you like or estate services assistant sorry
02:02:46 or estate services assistant sorry a rather grander expression and he was the estate services assistant for grenfell tower wasn't he i believe so yes well they had a so the wider estate so they had um yes
02:03:00 so they had um yes a's for the wider estate and indeed you recall that he was the consultation individual identified in your november 2012 fra uh this fra 17th of october 2014
02:03:14 and indeed the one in in 2010 as well yes yes so those three um and is that because he was as you put it the caretaker yes i see and he was the one was he who carried
02:03:26 and he was the one was he who carried out health and safety inspections on grenfell tower from time to time i believe so yes that was and carried out various checks on the fire safety system such as the aov the lift et cetera yes whatever their
02:03:37 the lift et cetera yes whatever their caretakers checklist had whatever the caretakers checklist had and would you look at the caretaker checklist and make sure that it was complete
02:03:44 complete for the for your purposes i had looked at them
02:03:48 at them um i had that was one of the items i made certain that part of the occupiers checklist who was doing it when were they undertaking it yes and looking a little bit more deeply
02:04:00 yes and looking a little bit more deeply into that let's let's start in the right place chronologically can we please go to the 29th december 2010 fra t three three c s t four zero is three
02:04:12 t three three c s t four zero is three one six
02:04:12 one six five this is the uh significant finding schedule to your december 2010 uh ffra uh if we go please to
02:04:23 uh ffra uh if we go please to page four in that you can see that uh it says at item 20 next to the priority high identified risk or hazard
02:04:34 risk or hazard the caretaker of the building has be undertake
02:04:38 undertake daily checks as per the caretakers checklist and this document is then kept as a record of these procedures having been undertaken and then actions to be taken can it be confirmed that the caretaker is carrying
02:04:49 confirmed that the caretaker is carrying out
02:04:49 out the daily checks as per the caretakers check list now if you look down at item 23 b on the next
02:04:57 next page please second row again high red identified risk or hazard
02:05:08 some of the portable firefighting extinguishers in the building have been have condemned written on them in large black writing this seems to indicate that monthly occupier inspections are not being carried out
02:05:19 carried out as the inspections would have spotted the writing and the last service date was 2009 and then actions to be taken it should be confirmed with the caretakers if they if they have
02:05:30 caretakers if they if they have carrying out monthly occupiers inspections of the portable firefighting extinguishers as per the caretakers checklist if the monthly checks are not being undertaken they should be started immediately
02:05:43 started immediately uh and that and also note while we're on that page mr state's foot of the page 23e same point again this time relating to emergency lighting system final exit doors
02:05:57 would you agree that similar actions were repeated in your 2012 and 2014 fras and significant action schedules without looking at them i can't comment on that but if you say they're they're
02:06:09 on that but if you say they're they're they're there um right you mean did i undertake the same
02:06:13 same process or
02:06:17 yes i mean do you remember we can look at the documents that is a matter of record i can tell you that the 20th of november 2012 had something similar in it in relation to testing and maintenance
02:06:28 maintenance and in the significant finding schedule you asked again for confirmation about the monthly inspections of the portable firefighting extinguishers using exactly the same wording
02:06:37 wording warts and all the reference to that is cst403083 page five uh we can look at it again no no and similarly item 23 of that action
02:06:49 and similarly item 23 of that action plan at page six uh you asked uh well let's look at that one actually that's quite a useful one because the wording is slightly different
02:06:58 different um it's cst403083 page six this is the 2012 significant action schedule now item 23.
02:07:10 you can see 23e same risk action to be taken slightly different terms can it be confirmed that the caretakers are undertaking the monthly occupier
02:07:21 are undertaking the monthly occupier test of the installed systems and firefighting equipment straight fittings with the completed sheets kept as record it is an offence under the fire safety order not to undertake these inspections
02:07:33 order not to undertake these inspections and similar points not in not identical wording in the 2014 fra and significant finding schedule we can look at those again if you want to but uh they are at cst403157 page 30
02:07:48 to but uh they are at cst403157 page 30 and cst403177 page 9. we can look at those if you want but similar point made again different wording my question is if you consulted paul
02:07:59 consulted paul stedman who was the estate services assistant or caretaker on each occasion why didn't you know whether the caretaker's checks were being completed
02:08:11 looking at this the caretaker's checks there's no records is what i'm saying here are they undertaking them are they recording them what he could say to me to my face
02:08:24 what he could say to me to my face is yes i'm doing them but i'm challenging here that there is no records and they do not appear to be undertaken right did you did you have a conversation at any stage taking this
02:08:36 conversation at any stage taking this example
02:08:37 example did you have a conversation with paul stedman and ask him why the fire extinguisher has not had
02:08:43 not had fire extinguishers have not already been replaced no why is that well first of all i would he would only be undertaking the checks it would be up to the repairs and
02:08:54 checks it would be up to the repairs and maintenance department or the maintenance department per se to undertake and supervise external contractors coming in the esa is just the ears and eyes of them
02:09:07 esa is just the ears and eyes of them and doing no more than i am reporting what's there or not there i'm asking has he reported them it's not something i would challenge in front of him and say have you done your job probably because
02:09:18 have you done your job probably because i'm not i'm just a contractor looking at the second sentence in that box it's just an example
02:09:26 can it be confirmed that the caretakers are undertaking the monthly occupier tests of the installed systems and firefighting equipment fittings again why could you not ask him that question and interrogate that
02:09:37 question and interrogate that issue yourself i'm there as a risk assessor not to interrogate someone on the premises to whether they're actually undertaking their job as per their contract of work
02:09:50 as per their contract of work why did you have to ask for confirmation in the significant finding schedule rather than just getting the getting the the statement from the horse's mouth it's not something i would like want to
02:10:01 it's not something i would like want to challenge someone who i may not have been doing the job he should have been doing right
02:10:08 or is this an example of cutting and pasting from other versions of other documents
02:10:12 documents as you can see the wording is different so it's not cutting and pasting were you concerned that every time you completed an fra of grenfell tower you didn't have any information about
02:10:23 you didn't have any information about whether the monthly checks and tests of the installed fire safety systems and emergency lighting were taking place it seems to be a repeated theme and i am i would have asked for the
02:10:36 i am i would have asked for the checklist
02:10:40 you would have asked for the checklist did there come a point when the repeated theme
02:10:44 theme uh felt like you were asking for the same thing over and over yes and was that not something which would have led you to escalate the matter which would have been a gender item on one of the
02:10:56 gender item on one of the meetings that would have happened did you ever obtain or seek to obtain any assurances from janice ray or anybody you consulted with on that yes and what was the upshot i can't remember
02:11:10 and what was the upshot i can't remember exactly but i would have asked the question
02:11:13 question it's they quit i would have taken this back with me to the next whichever one i undertook previously go back is the same thing happening again yes
02:11:23 again yes and then i highlight it back to the tmo it's for the tmo to undertake the actions it's just for me to go around the next time which could be potentially two years later
02:11:36 can we uh look next at uh if the topic of evacuation and the strategy in your fire risk assessments you include a section on page five
02:11:49 you include a section on page five entitled evacuation strategy for this building
02:11:52 building um let's let's look at the 29th of december 2010 fra for grenfell tower for that that's at cst403181 page five please
02:12:09 and i'll read this to you although the language will become familiar to those following this as we go through it the title evacuation strategy for this building
02:12:21 building and note the words for this building and this is divided into two parts residential and employees and under the residential part at the top of your screen it says
02:12:32 at the top of your screen it says for the residents of this building there is a defending place or stay put evacuation strategy this means the the residents remain within their own dwelling during a fire incident
02:12:43 incident unless the fire is in that dwelling or it is otherwise affected in which case they should immediately evacuate the dwelling and call the fire and rescue service the fire service or royal borough of kensington or chelsea rbkc or tenant
02:12:55 kensington or chelsea rbkc or tenant management organization tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the building at any time if this is appropriate or the resident can leave at any time if they say wish
02:13:06 can leave at any time if they say wish tmo has provided information to all residents via letters and briefing sheets of what to do in the event of an emergency
02:13:12 emergency and articles on fire safety advice and emergency procedures are included in the residence magazine called link also articles are provided reminding
02:13:23 also articles are provided reminding tenants that they must not store items in communal areas nor cause obstructions to the means of escape these articles are produced in the seven major languages which have been selected as being most likely to meet the needs of the residents the
02:13:34 to meet the needs of the residents the landlord relies upon the tenants to respond to any emergency in accord with agreed emergency plans and does not facilitate any federals or other emergency evacuation exercises
02:13:47 emergency evacuation exercises and what was the purpose of this section in general what is the evacuation strategy for the residents of the building well was the per specifically was the purpose of this text here
02:13:58 purpose of this text here to set up your consideration of the fire procedures that were in place in the for evacuation in the event of a fire yes
02:14:04 yes yes and is it right that you used this section of your fras to set out the arrangements for providing fire safety information to tma residents partly yes yes now the requirement to
02:14:17 partly yes yes now the requirement to consider fire safety procedures do you agree
02:14:19 agree is set out in past 79 at clause 16.3 and i don't expect you to remember the precise provision let's look at it and then confirm what
02:14:30 let's look at it and then confirm what i've just asked you cta 703 page 54
02:14:39 16.3
02:14:44 if we can have that expanded please in the course of fire risk assessment the following matters should be considered any shortcomings in these matters should be identified in the documented fire risk assessment and
02:14:55 documented fire risk assessment and should be addressed in the action plan sequels 19.
02:15:00 uh a the five procedures including procedures for people with special responsibilities in the in the event of fire b the arrangements for summoning the fire and rescue service in the event of fire
02:15:12 and rescue service in the event of fire c the nomination of people to respond to fire using firefighting equipment if appropriate to do so d where appropriate the nomination of people to assist with evacuation
02:15:23 people to assist with evacuation e arrangements for liaison with the fire and rescue service and then skip down to i fire drills and then skip further down to m appropriate records including normally a
02:15:34 appropriate records including normally a fire safety manual would you agree with the first sentence of that
02:15:38 of that section or clause that the purpose of identifying and considering considering the fire safety procedures in place is so that you can identify any shortcomings
02:15:49 shortcomings and if any are found identify them in your fra and action plan yes now in the commentary to clause 16 and we find this at page 51
02:16:03 roman 8 left hand column
02:16:08 under fire procedures if we can scroll up a little bit you can see more of it in the course of the fire risk assessment there is need to ensure that there are
02:16:17 there are formal documented procedures for people to follow in the event of fire and that the procedures in question are adequate adequate procedures will normally address and there's a list of things do you
02:16:28 and there's a list of things do you agree that your role as a fire risk assessor
02:16:31 assessor was to assess the adequacy of the tmos fire safety procedures for people to follow in the event of a fire in their building
02:16:38 building yes yes now in your fra if we go back to page five of cst403181 this is the december 2010 fra
02:16:50 this is the december 2010 fra we've seen it says and i've pointed this out already the sections is entitled evacuation strategy for this building yes this building was it therefore your intention that
02:17:02 was it therefore your intention that this section would set out the specific evacuation strategy for grenfell tower for which you were conducting your fire risk assessment in two parts one for the residential
02:17:13 in two parts one for the residential areas one for the commercial retail areas or offices yes and without going to each fra that you did for
02:17:20 did for grenfell tower thereafter would you agree with me that each fra included the same paragraph as we've just looked at in this 2010 fra so far as the
02:17:31 in this 2010 fra so far as the residential part of the building is concerned
02:17:37 yes i'm just thinking of hesitating is because the last one as did not have any other areas apart from residential in it so i without looking at it i don't know whether there is the bottom part
02:17:49 whether there is the bottom part would be in that one right because the gym
02:17:53 gym and the nursery weren't in operation then they were still shell buildings right just focusing on the part i read out aloud to you the top part of the box do you remember where you got that information
02:18:04 information from initially the defending place they put the text the information making up the text this is
02:18:13 is predominantly from what stay put policy is as per
02:18:18 is as per uh the guidance perfect let me be clearer you've set out the evacuation strategy for grenfell
02:18:29 the evacuation strategy for grenfell tower
02:18:30 tower in this december 2010 fra and i've read you the text for the residential part of the building what was the source of the information comprised in that text
02:18:43 the history of where did it come from where did you get it from well that's the defend they stay put strategy and it would have come from the initial fra and
02:18:55 from the initial fra and the 2013 fire strategy that you showed me earlier well the 2013 strategy only came in to being a year later this is the uh
02:19:07 to being a year later this is the uh sorry three years later this is the 2010 fra
02:19:11 fra oh okay sorry so this is the 2010 one so this was this is what stay put is stay put is from documentation so yes
02:19:24 documentation so yes just look let me be more specific where did you get the specific information about the tma providing information to residents via letters briefing sheets talking to jonas
02:19:35 letters briefing sheets talking to jonas ray
02:19:35 ray and the letter we talked about earlier on so as i started this process this was part of the information right
02:19:43 right now you say the letter uh we talked about earlier on was that the letter of the 27th of september 2010 yes which was a few months before you signed off on this document
02:19:55 signed off on this document yes and that as we know followed your meeting with jan israel on the 24th of september 2010 yes yes um let's just go to that then pin this down
02:20:06 this down cst403061 please page three
02:20:12 and what i'd like to do is put that up at the same time as this text if we can
02:20:18 keep what we have on the screen at the moment and put up page three of cst-403061
02:20:50 uh that is not what i'm after
02:20:55 that is what i'm after thank you um now what we have on the right hand side is the letter a part of the 27th of september 2010 letter
02:21:06 letter and and if we can if we look at the uh and compare the texts uh you can see just casting your eye from right to left and back again
02:21:19 and it says uh on the right hand side in residential accommodation buildings there's a defend in place evacuation strategy for the residents
02:21:28 residents this means the residents remain within their own dwelling during a fire incident unless the fire is in their dwelling or it is otherwise affected in which case they they immediately evacuate the flat and call the fire and rescue service
02:21:39 rescue service the fire service or tma employees can or will arrange for a general evacuation of the building at any time if this is appropriate or resident can leave at any time
02:21:48 time if they say wish this information is provided to residents by tmo in a number of different formats newsletters the link magazine or residence meetings etc so it looks very much as if the
02:22:00 etc so it looks very much as if the source of what's on the left-hand side came from what's on the right-hand side is that right but the water on the right-hand side was intended to refer to all buildings in
02:22:12 intended to refer to all buildings in the tma stock for which you were to do fras that's right isn't it whereas what's on the left-hand side was specific to grenfell tower yes well the same management or evacuation
02:22:23 well the same management or evacuation policy is going to be the same for virtually all their buildings the only difference is going to be is there a firearm fitted in certain buildings where it would be a simultaneous evacuation policy rather
02:22:34 simultaneous evacuation policy rather than a
02:22:35 than a stay put and if we scroll up to page two in the letter
02:22:51 in the letter you see under the heading fire and emergency information for residents
02:22:58 uh in the middle of the paragraph you see it says as part of tmo's ongoing policy to keep residents informed on all emergency and safety issues articles and information is regularly published about fire safety advice
02:23:09 published about fire safety advice and emergency procedures in the link magazine also residents receive letters and briefing sheets what to do in the event of an emergency and reminding them that they must not store items in commonal areas nor cause
02:23:20 store items in commonal areas nor cause obstructions to the means of escape routes etc
02:23:25 again that generic information is the same information as you've included in the second half of the grenfell tower december 2010 fra in the lower part of the box on the left yes
02:23:35 yes so is it right in reality that in fact you obtained the information that you included in your grenfell tower december 2010 fra at the meeting on the 24th of
02:23:48 fra at the meeting on the 24th of september 2010 and as reflected in your letter in response to that on the 27th of september 2010. yes and that information was not specific to grenfell tower it was generic
02:23:59 generic generic for their buildings that were applicable to that so in other words they didn't have a fire alarm system fitted did you ever go about when you did your fra for grenfell tower in december to
02:24:11 fra for grenfell tower in december to in december 2010 did you ever go about asking yourself whether there was anything specific about grenfell tower which would lead you to
02:24:19 you to write something different when you were when you were identifying and describing the evacuation strategy for grenfell tower no so although it's not a cut and paste it's a copy across
02:24:31 not a cut and paste it's a copy across really from the generic to the the to the specific is that it's going to be virtually the same the buildings are constructed the same way the management strategy and policy is
02:24:42 the management strategy and policy is very the same this general needs blocker flats and if we look at
02:24:55 page five of the uh fire risk assessment
02:25:01 cst403181 page five in the last sentence you can see in the box there it says the landlord relies upon the tenants to respond to any emergency in accord with the agreed emergency plans
02:25:12 with the agreed emergency plans does not facilitate any fire drills or other emergency evacuation exercises did janice ray tell you that at the 24th of september 2010 meeting 2010 meeting
02:25:26 2010 meeting 2010 meeting that they don't really don't do any undertaking any fire drills yes no what sorry no she didn't where did you get that information from because there was no one in the building
02:25:38 because there was no one in the building to undertake a fire julie it would be standard policy and procedure for residential general needs block of flats
02:25:47 so what you said there is again generic is it yes
02:25:52 is it yes what were the agreed emergency plans referred to there so which line where am i looking please left yes of course left hand side of the screen
02:26:01 screen bottom last sentence in the first chunk lan would reply to respond to any emergency in accord with agreed emergency plans what were the agreed emergency plans for
02:26:12 what were the agreed emergency plans for grenfell tower stay put policy which is unless the fires of
02:26:16 fires of immediately affecting you or your flat you would stay within your dwelling otherwise you would leave the building i see so that's not an it's not an agreed evacuation plan it's
02:26:28 evacuation plan it's it's a stay put plan is it
02:26:32 are they the same
02:26:35 well that's an interesting question it's not for me to answer i think probably more your line of work are they the same stay put is a stay put is an evacuation plan the same
02:26:47 stay put is an evacuation plan the same as simultaneous evacuation is an evacuation plan is how the building's designed set up compartmented
02:26:58 set up compartmented and it is the policy or the strategy of that building
02:27:04 did you ever check to see whether the information about general evacuation was ever provided to residents by way of the tmo
02:27:11 tmo information to residents such as newsletters link magazine briefing sheets of what to do in the in the event of emergency etc yes though so i've looked in the handbook it's there was sections in the
02:27:22 handbook it's there was sections in the handbook
02:27:23 handbook there was items in the link magazine because at one point janus ray actually ran one by me to say this is what um london wide i can't remember the umbrella
02:27:34 wide i can't remember the umbrella organization of councils were going to put out and things like that so yes i do know that the information was given out did you check to see if it was provided in the seven languages that you've
02:27:46 in the seven languages that you've detailed in your fra um and the bottom so i'm trying to visualize it in the bottom of the link magazine
02:27:53 magazine actually gives you the seven languages and it says anything in this sorry i can't remember exact words but it says something like if you cannot want it in any of these languages please
02:28:06 yes ask you are right it does do that uh but it but the the uh invitation is in english isn't it isn't all the information in the
02:28:17 isn't all the information in the languages as well in the boxes on the document well we can look at that in due course did you ever uh ask her about whether that information ever
02:28:30 about whether that information ever included
02:28:31 included advice for vulnerable residents about evacuation planning or how to apply for a peep yes i think that was discussed at points but we'll come back to that tomorrow mr chairman is that a convenient moment
02:28:43 mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is just a minute thank you very much well mr stokes i think it's time we close for the day okay thank you sir um i'm going to have to ask you to come back tomorrow to give further evidence i'm afraid but i think
02:28:54 further evidence i'm afraid but i think you were expecting that so so all it remains to me to say is we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break
02:29:05 over the break okay thank you very much let's give the usher please
02:29:26 thank you ten o'clock more of it mr
02:29:34 chairman
02:30:03 you