C S Stokes and Associates Ltd Evidence - Tuesday 25th May 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:27 hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr carl

00:00:30 mr carl stokes who carried out fire risk assessments on behalf of the tmo and the council say mr miller are you ready to call mr stokes yes good morning mr chairman good

00:00:42 stokes yes good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel i now call mr carl

00:00:44 mr carl stokes please thank you morning mr

00:00:58 stokes please thank you morning mr stokes

00:00:59 stokes i understand i understand that you're going to take the earth right have you got the testament there could you hold the testament in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god

00:01:10 i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make yourself comfortable there's uh some water there if you'd

00:01:21 there's uh some water there if you'd like it

00:01:24 and just take a moment to get yourself set up

00:01:37 thank you thank you very much yes mr miller yes mr chairman thank you mr stokes good morning can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely

00:01:49 with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they don't work out that way

00:01:54 that way so if you'd like me to repeat the question or ask it in a different way i can do that can i also ask you please to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right can get down everything you're saying fully and

00:02:06 everything you're saying fully and clearly

00:02:07 clearly also please can i advise you not to shake your head or nod because a nail or a yes as the case may be does not come out on the transcript we're going to take scheduled breaks

00:02:18 scheduled breaks one mid morning and one mid afternoon on each day that you're giving evidence but if you'd like a break at any other time please just say and we can take a break

00:02:26 break now you've made two witness statements following the fire at the tower the first uh witness statement is dated the 28th of september 2018 and that is at cst403063

00:02:40 at cst403063 can we please have that up is that the first page of your first witness statement

00:02:45 statement yes sir and can you we go please to page 58.

00:02:51 58. you'll see a date and a signature is that your signature just above the date there

00:02:55 there yes sir can we please go to cst three zeros

00:02:59 zeros three zero one eight six please is that your second witness statement yes sir

00:03:07 yes sir and if we go to page 44 we'll see a signature just above the date 13th march 2020 is that your signature yes sir did you write these statements yourself yes sir can you confirm that they are true yes

00:03:19 can you confirm that they are true yes sir

00:03:21 sir uh have you discussed your evidence with anybody before coming here today no no legal team legal team now i'm going to start substantive questions with the with an overview of

00:03:32 questions with the with an overview of your experience if i may and is it right that before you qualified as a fire risk assessor

00:03:41 yeah just forgive me a moment yes mr chairman

00:03:53 sorry there was a slight pause on the transcript we've sorted that out very well if it happens i'll keep an eye on it mr chairman and if it happens again

00:04:00 again we'll try and sort it out before you qualified as a fire risk assessor you served in the armed forces i think didn't you correct and you did that for nine years until 1986. correct and in 1986 you joined the royal

00:04:13 correct and in 1986 you joined the royal berkshire

00:04:14 berkshire fire and rescue service correct yes and you qualified as an operational firefighter i think correct and during that time you were seconded to the fire safety department

00:04:25 seconded to the fire safety department is that right it was part of the qualifying period yes and you would inspect buildings including high-rise buildings yes yes and to clarify did that include high-rise blocks of flats

00:04:37 not on a day-to-day basis because that was not uh high rise flights were not part of the fight fire safety order right what about residential buildings above 18 meters in height

00:04:49 above 18 meters in height at that time probably not on a daily basis but it would have been undertaken where

00:04:55 where at that particular time the fire service would do it as part of familiarization visits and in 1994 i think you then transferred to the oxfordshire fire and rescue

00:05:06 to the oxfordshire fire and rescue service didn't you correct and then you spent the majority of your time there in the fire safety department i think correct uh and is it right that both before and after the enactment of the regulated

00:05:17 the enactment of the regulated regulatory reform order 2005 which we call the rro or fso you were in that role yes yes uh and you i think were employed in

00:05:28 yes uh and you i think were employed in that department until you retired from it in september 2009 correct yes and is it right that since september 2009 you've been working as a fire risk assessor operating as the sole director of cs

00:05:42 operating as the sole director of cs stokes and associates limited yes and who are your associates none none it's just a name it was advised that that was the best way when i set the company up

00:05:53 way when i set the company up right on 24 september 2009 uh you started working for salvas consulting limited as a fire risk assessor

00:06:00 assessor on a six-month employment contract yes that's correct as it is yes and is it right that after you retired from oxfordshire frs but before you started work for salvas um did you undertake any independent

00:06:13 um did you undertake any independent fire risk assessments without looking back probably yes right did you do any fra which i'll use for a shorthand did you do any fra work in parallel with working for selvus

00:06:26 parallel with working for selvus yes you did what was that uh buildings as i was setting myself up as a company i see so while you were employed for at salva's you worked on the side as an f

00:06:37 salva's you worked on the side as an f as a fire risk assessor did you yes i was just sub-contracting with salvas right i see when did you stop working for selvas uh

00:06:49 when did you stop working for selvas uh i can't give you a precise date sorry right it was a six month employment contract yes uh i take it from that that it wasn't an exclusive employment contract they

00:07:00 exclusive employment contract they allowed you to do to to work as a fire risk assessor on the side is that right correct and what yes uh in what parts of your spare time well i'm sorry i i think what you said earlier was you

00:07:11 think what you said earlier was you acted as a subcontractor for salvas did did that mean they asked you to do specific jobs yes i mean i uh worked

00:07:22 i uh worked on the contract for uh i'll be kctmo i also undertook some other work force elvis

00:07:29 elvis as they required me to do exactly as when they required and when they didn't have a requirement you were free to do whatever you wanted to do

00:07:36 do yes it worked yes as i had understood it and you were actually employed by salvas but that's not right i was a subcontractor i see um did you do

00:07:45 do did you bid any uh did you bid for for any tmo work while you were subcontracted to salvas no

00:07:56 subcontracted to salvas no is it right that you were directly retained by the tmo is there fire risk assessor from the autumn of 2010 so i think when the high-rise contract came to an end

00:08:08 high-rise contract came to an end sell this high-rise contract yes yes they then asked for tender for the medium yes and that was the point when you

00:08:19 yes and that was the point when you became

00:08:20 became directly retained by the tmo yes not before that yes and when did you stop working for the tmo

00:08:30 um it would have been the end of 2017. so i'm trying to look in my mind trying to think of a date it was towards the end of 2017

00:08:41 end of 2017 november time during the period autumn 2010 to 2017 uh while you were working for or subcontracted by the tmo did you

00:08:54 for or subcontracted by the tmo did you do fras for anybody else yes you did how much of your time was spent working for the tmo on fras and how much of your time was spent working on fras for other people

00:09:05 spent working on fras for other people for organizations um hard to say really it was not as a this is one day a week or something like that sometimes it could be two days in a week sometimes it would be one

00:09:17 in a week sometimes it would be one sometimes it could be three days in a month

00:09:19 month right it just i was allocated work uh fras and then the criteria was this is when they have to be done

00:09:31 undertake the work were the tf was the tma your biggest client for a portfolio of numbers of buildings yes

00:09:39 yes in terms of your revenue i can't tell you that i don't know you don't know you don't have a feel for that do you know them no right are you still working as a fire risk assessor

00:09:50 as a fire risk assessor no uh when did you stop um so i can't remember the exact date uh 2008 in may 18 um

00:10:01 2008 in may 18 um and why did you stop my insurance company

00:10:04 company didn't renew my insurance did they tell you why

00:10:08 you why uh yes why was that i can't remember the exact words it was for financially um liabilities

00:10:24 can we then turn to your experience and training

00:10:27 training and start first with oxfordshire fire and rescue service can we go please to your first witness statement page five paragraph ten

00:10:38 and you say they're following the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 coming into force in october 2006 i spent a significant amount of my

00:10:50 2006 i spent a significant amount of my final three and a half years in the fire service

00:10:52 service auditing the significant findings of responsible persons carrying out fras far risk assessments uh when the rro came into force did you receive any

00:11:03 came into force did you receive any training on its requirements from oxfordshire fire and rescue service yes what was that training there was a suite of training at the time i can't remember the exact

00:11:14 at the time i can't remember the exact uh wording and all the courses but i think i've provided a list of all the courses for you

00:11:21 i see so that was provided for you by oxfordshire yes and and we can tell from those certificates and those details who gave that training can we yes well we'll come to that in in

00:11:32 come to that in in in detail um

00:11:36 when you say you were auditing the significant findings of the responsible persons carrying out fras what did that involve what did that auditing involve

00:11:47 auditing involve um visiting a so you would be given a premises it would come up on the computer system or the five uh the supervisory officer will tell you

00:11:58 will tell you these are the buildings we are looking at uh you will make contact arrange for a date to go to the building visit the building look at all the

00:12:09 visit the building look at all the documentation walk around the building look at the um

00:12:15 fra sorry i was going to use fire risk assessment but if it's all right to use foreign

00:12:21 foreign look at the fra significant findings from their documentation and then score it as per the scoring charts that were provided i see

00:12:33 and did you make these audit visits on a regular basis or any when there was something

00:12:40 something specific that you were told you needed to look at like a potential deficiency which might lead to an enforcement so depending how the um

00:12:51 so depending how the um criteria i think you could safely say the criteria evolved over time as because the fire safety order was new so the criteria was that if it was reported as a

00:13:04 reported as a deficiency or someone needed to look at it be

00:13:08 it be from another agency if there was one after fire incident so if there'd been a fire in the building the operational crews would then ask the fire safety team to go out there was a computer generated system

00:13:22 there was a computer generated system uh the fourth one would be as and when um

00:13:27 um the right probably not the right term to use but flavor of the month so there could be a theme um highlighted by a senior officer i want you to go and look at

00:13:38 want you to go and look at this could be done because of a national incident

00:13:41 incident other fire brigades highlighting say

00:13:47 a hotel chain that they're prosecuted you've got that hotel chain within your area please go look at that hotel but there was do i get the impression from that answer that there were specific reasons to go

00:13:59 that there were specific reasons to go and look rather than having a system of making spot checks on whether building owners or responsible persons fras were up to scratch is that right at that time that would be the way this is

00:14:11 that time that would be the way this is can we go to paragraph 11 of this statement please just below it and you say this

00:14:15 say this on december 2007 having undertaken the relevant training course i was awarded the fire risk assessment certificate by the northern ireland fire safety panel and cs todd and associates limited

00:14:28 panel and cs todd and associates limited in recognition of my demonstration of proficiency verified by examination and you go on to say that enabled me to carry out

00:14:37 carry out or audit suitable and sufficient fras under the fsa this was the standard course attended by fire safety officers in my brigade at the time now in respect of that training course did any of it focus on

00:14:48 training course did any of it focus on high-rise blocks of flats

00:14:52 to be honest i can't remember exactly there it was a five-week course so i'm going to say yes some of it would have focused on that you don't remember though without looking at the content of the course no

00:15:04 looking at the content of the course no i can't remember what about external facades did it uh did it cover external facades on residential buildings yes i would have thought not why is that because they're not covered

00:15:16 why is that because they're not covered in the

00:15:17 in the residential buildings the external facades not covered in the fire safety order

00:15:20 order external uh external walls of high-rise blocks of flats yes in multiple occupations naturally enough

00:15:29 enough yes you say not covered did anybody tell you

00:15:32 you uh that external facades were not covered under the rro it was covered on training courses yes right what about disabled persons in respect of this training did any of

00:15:43 in respect of this training did any of it focus on vulnerable occupants in residential or well in residential buildings it would be covered in residential buildings as far as the fire safety order covered

00:15:56 as far as the fire safety order covered disabled did any of the training on the fire safety guidance did you get any training on the fire safety guidance available at the time entitled fire safety risk

00:16:07 at the time entitled fire safety risk assessment sleeping accommodation published in june 2006 the sleeping guide sleeping guide yes you did did it focus on the use of pass

00:16:16 pass 79 in its 2007 edition yes before you completed the course in december 2007 have you actually carried out any fire risk assessments on your

00:16:28 out any fire risk assessments on your own

00:16:29 own no not 2007 no and after the training how often did you undertake fire risk assessments i wouldn't have undertaken them because i work for the fire service

00:16:40 i work for the fire service i see so you are in the role only of auditing other peoples yes fire risk assessments not carrying out your own correct because i worked for the fire service so you cannot work

00:16:52 for the fire service so you cannot work and do that sort of work undertake that work i'll clarify that by saying that i actually did undertake some fire risk assessments for fire stations

00:17:04 assessments for fire stations yes when you did your uh

00:17:09 work for the oxfordshire fire service after december 2007 once you'd become certified how did that assist your job at that stage

00:17:23 your job at that stage as an auditing officer it gave you better insight and as an auditing officer after december 2007 did you

00:17:34 december 2007 did you audit fras of any high-rise blocks of flats

00:17:39 flats in other words residential buildings in multiple occupation exceeding 80 meters in height i'm going to say no because in oxygen i think there's only five in the whole county and you didn't audit them they were

00:17:51 and you didn't audit them they were county council owned um i had input and i've walked around them but

00:17:56 them but i cannot remember ever auditing them because there was a specific officer who undertook liaison with the county council right the reason i ask you is because

00:18:07 right the reason i ask you is because you say well let's go to it sal seven zeros nine page two this is the page one you can see is

00:18:18 two this is the page one you can see is your cv that you sent to salvas and on page two uh you say and it's two-thirds of the way down the text in the box

00:18:30 text in the box which is entitled in blue caps in my previous role my main duties responsibilities were you say i have experience of undertaking risk assessments and audits

00:18:41 risk assessments and audits of the common parts of high-rise residential tower blocks under the fire safety order and also fire assessment of the private flat strike dwellings under section 24 of the housing act um what was the basis for that statement

00:18:54 um what was the basis for that statement as at september 2009 mr stakes because i would have walked around the council buildings in oxford the towers i see but you say you have experience of

00:19:06 but you say you have experience of undertaking risk assessments and audits so not just walking around but that would have been walking around uh ordered

00:19:15 ordered looking at there was an audit you were walking around the building well you're doing more than that weren't you you were also looking presumably at the fire risk assessors fire risk assessment of those buildings and making

00:19:26 assessment of those buildings and making sure it was compliant yes yes and when you say experience of undertaking risk assessments what was that that would be the undertaking

00:19:37 undertaking so you did you did undertake fire risk assessments of high-rise buildings while he was still at oxfordshire only as part of my role yes but but i don't understand um your role

00:19:48 but but i don't understand um your role you said was auditing other people's fras but here you're saying that you have experience of undertaking risk assessments what are we to understand from that

00:19:59 did you undertake fire risk assessments before you left oxfordshire not in my own right now so what does this mean in your cv i have experience of undertaking risk assessments

00:20:12 sorry i can't answer that question

00:20:16 but is it correct or is it incorrect well it is correct that's what i've written at the time yes but is it it was was it a correct statement of fact at the time

00:20:27 the time yes so then if it was correct at the time that you had experience of undertaking risk assessments of the common parts of high-rise residential tower blocks when was that first of all what was that

00:20:39 when was that first of all what was that experience so i'm just trying this is 2009. yes ed it was your cv you put forward as you have to get the job at salvas

00:20:50 have to get the job at salvas so it would have been going around as working with the fire service going around the buildings in oxford undertaking audits of them but looking

00:21:02 undertaking audits of them but looking at the five risk assessments doesn't say that does it it says i have experience of undertaking risk assessments and audits was it true or was it untrue that in fact you did have no experience of undertaking risk

00:21:14 have no experience of undertaking risk assessments i would have undertaken the risk assessments on the training exercises but not as per say at my own company well that's a misleading statement then isn't it because it tends to suggest

00:21:26 isn't it because it tends to suggest that you have experience of undertaking them

00:21:28 them rather than being uh trained to do so but to undertake the audit i would have undertaken the risk assessment to know what

00:21:37 what as part of the training uh criteria to know what the audit and the risk assessment had to do so i'm getting confused yeah did you ever actually

00:21:48 ever actually produce an fra before leaving oxfordshire not on a high rise no not on a high-rise page as part of as my own company know so the statement i put it to you so the statement i have experience of

00:21:59 statement i have experience of undertaking risk assessments of the common parts of high-rise residential tower blocks uh was incorrect the first part undertaking risk assessments and writing

00:22:12 undertaking risk assessments and writing them up is you are correct i undertook audits of those buildings yeah so why did you say i have experience of undertaking risk assessments when that was incorrect

00:22:25 looking at it in hindsight and the way you've just explained it i agree with what you're saying but my uh writing it i have experience of undertaking risk assessments because to undertake the audit i would have

00:22:37 to undertake the audit i would have undertaken the risk assessment that was how the way my mind was thinking

00:22:43 by the time you retired from the oxfordshire fire and rescue service would it be right to say that you'd had three years of post-training

00:22:53 well three three years of fire safety experience we put it that way very generally at least as an auditor uh in the way you've explained and less than two years experience as a certified

00:23:05 than two years experience as a certified fire risk assessor correct and while you were employed by oxfordshire fire and rescue service i think i think you've told us before but just confirmed you weren't also working independently

00:23:16 working independently as a fire risk assessor i set the company up in the february so i was in preparation yes to uh start yes but you didn't actually carry out

00:23:28 yes but you didn't actually carry out any fras yourself until you actually left

00:23:30 left oxfordshire is that right so it's a long time ago i i i did undertake some just before i left on when i was on leave that might have happened

00:23:41 happened but i can't give you a definite dates of when i actually started or the first ones let's stick with this document and go to page four please

00:23:52 document and go to page four please can we look at some of the training courses that you've set out there and qualifications technical qualifications as you describe them

00:24:06 there are those there set out running from the bottom of the page 1992 to the top of the page 2009 associate member institute of arbitrators and the grade on the right hand side you

00:24:19 and the grade on the right hand side you also set out your qualifications in your second witness statement at page 45 if we can go to that please this is appendix one of your second witness statement

00:24:31 and at 45 we can see the first page of a number of pages making up the um appendix one to your second witness statement which is your qualifications

00:24:43 is your qualifications uh and just look at those in a little bit of detail if we can um if we look at rows two and three in the table on page 45 we can see your iosh

00:24:54 iosh and nebosh qualifications your ios 2001 and nebosh 2005 in rows two and three is that correct correct

00:25:05 correct uh now mr todd colin todd who is an expert

00:25:09 expert uh in this inquiry has said in his report

00:25:12 report that those courses are not particularly relevant to fire safety training would you agree with that um at the time the knee bosch course for my

00:25:23 at the time the knee bosch course for my under for my memory the was not a sec there was not a separate fire safety element to do the fire safety element you did the nebosh course and the fire safety was a

00:25:36 the fire safety was a um sanctioned chunk of that course right let's just see what he says in his report very very specifically if you go to cta

00:25:45 to cta 6011 please and go to the to page 50 at the bottom paragraph 6.14 he says and this is under the heading as

00:25:56 he says and this is under the heading as you can see higher up your screen training of mr stokes and he says accordingly with regard to the iosh and nebosh qualifications the extent of training in fire safety

00:26:07 the extent of training in fire safety that study for the assessments or examinations would involve would not be greatly relevant to this section of my report however it would be and it goes over the page uh correct to say that

00:26:18 say that the training would be likely to have provided a basic understanding of the approach to general risk assessment albeit primarily in the context of health and safety assessments do you agree with that yes thank you now

00:26:29 do you agree with that yes thank you now going back to your cv if we can please sal 709 page four

00:26:37 uh you uh use

00:26:41 page page four you you identify the 2007 europe diploma in fire safety about halfway down your screen there you see that yes and that's the fire

00:26:54 you see that yes and that's the fire prevention association is that a reference to the course on fire prevention by the fire protection association that you say you completed on the 14th of november 2006.

00:27:09 so without let me show it to you

00:27:14 cst3030188 which is your exhibit

00:27:19 slash cst25

00:27:22 that's the certificate and it's dated as you can see 14th of november 2006 in the bottom left-hand corner you see that correct is the statement in your cv

00:27:34 your cv that uh re referring to the 2007 europe diploma in fire safety by the fpa a reference to the course covered by this certificate

00:27:46 covered by this certificate it looks like it yes right um can we then go back to mr todd's report please cta 6011 page 51 paragraph 6.18

00:27:58 paragraph 6.18 bottom of your screen he says there in the second sentence students undertake a one-week residential course on rip fire risk assessment after which they after which

00:28:10 after which they after which they undertake distance learning in eight topics each requiring approximately 15 hours of study thereafter the course is completed by undertaking a three-hour examination can you remember whether you studied

00:28:22 can you remember whether you studied each of those eight topics i would have must have done to

00:28:27 to pass the course yes right then if we go back to your cv sal 709 page three looking at page three of that you also say and this isn't the

00:28:38 say and this isn't the the i hope not familiar list in between 2005 in 2009 uh three quarters of the way down the first box on that page

00:28:49 first box on that page fire prevention association fpa national occupational standards nos courses two to twelve including fire science and engineering just keep that on the screen there for

00:29:00 just keep that on the screen there for the moment can we please go to your second witness statement the second witness statement at page 45

00:29:14 uh and we can

00:29:18 have that up as well please at the same time

00:29:24 cst3030186 page 45.

00:29:35 you can see that on the left hand side where we were a moment ago in the box on your training courses you've said that you did the nos courses 2 to 12. just focus on that

00:29:47 focus on that fire science and engineering and now if you cast your eye to the right hand part of the screen you can see um that if you scroll through those three pages 45 46 and 47

00:30:00 three pages 45 46 and 47 you haven't exhibited certificates for all of the courses two to twelve only two three four four point two

00:30:07 point two five and ten uh now that's d do you accept that just scrolling through those pages slowly yes yes does the absence of a

00:30:19 yes yes does the absence of a certificate mean that you didn't attend the

00:30:21 the one of those courses no i attended them all

00:30:25 all the number so i'm trying to remember back the numbering of some of the courses was slightly different

00:30:33 i think they changed so one of the courses might have been three but then was called 4.1 or 4.2 right as the courses evolved but i was a forester then and it was a case of these

00:30:45 forester then and it was a case of these course you started at course 2 and you went on the course as it was detected dictated to by your superior officer i see but i did all that all and all the

00:30:57 i see but i did all that all and all the courses

00:30:58 courses as they were at that time and os 2 to 12.

00:31:02 12. we don't have certificates for for example six seven eight or nine in the list that you've exhibited on the right hand side of the screen uh as appendix two to your second witness statement is that because you

00:31:14 witness statement is that because you didn't

00:31:15 didn't do those courses or uh or is there another explanation well i'm just looking quickly on so there's ns2 4.2 yes so i think some of the courses

00:31:26 yes so i think some of the courses numbers they were numbered initially courses 1 to 12. and then as the courses evolved over the years they changed so that's like 4.2 could have been course six i i mean do

00:31:39 could have been course six i i mean do you remember that happening that the numbers changed yes

00:31:48 well let me put it a different way rather than trying to force you to grub about in your memory can you explain why you haven't exhibited certificates for course 1 6 7 eight or nine one i wouldn't have

00:32:01 7 eight or nine one i wouldn't have undertaken but about six seven eight and nine without knowing the uh titles of those courses they could have been courses like 4.2 or some one of the other courses

00:32:12 4.2 or some one of the other courses right

00:32:13 right now in respect of course nos 5 you uh let's show you this let's look at the certificate for that cst 3030163

00:32:32 we have that up please that that that has

00:32:35 has uh the course date 24th 28th of april 2006

00:32:40 2006 and its title is nos5 underpinning knowledge and risk assessment of high risk

00:32:46 risk premises did that include high-rise blocks of flats

00:32:54 i can't tell you without looking at the criteria of that course sorry right i don't think you've produced that of you i don't know so was there any training

00:33:05 i don't know so was there any training do you remember on the rro and its application to high-risk premises

00:33:10 premises as part of that course but so high-risk premises as a definition is not

00:33:17 not a residential building might not necessarily be a high-risk premises a high-risk premises could be a chemical factory yes all right let me let me break it down was there any as part of this course was there any

00:33:28 as part of this course was there any training on the rro there would have been yes and is that as part of that was there any uh part of the training relating to high-risk premises without looking at the course notes or

00:33:40 without looking at the course notes or something i couldn't tell you so sorry i mean the title might give you a clue the title to the course risk assessment of high-risk premises yeah but high-risk premises is a broad category a chemical pla

00:33:51 a broad category a chemical pla factory uh chemical storage area residential buildings are not high risk but was there any training on the rro in relation to the application to high-risk high-rise

00:34:02 high-risk high-rise residential premises in this i wouldn't know without looking at this sorry sir now apart from this course the certificate for which we have in front of us

00:34:11 of us we haven't found any other evidence that you undertook any training in carrying out fire risk assessments of high-risk premises

00:34:18 premises including high-rise blocks of flats is that is that right they would be covered by other documentation as you went through the at this time

00:34:29 as you went through the at this time the sleeping guide was the only real document and you would covered that in part of the training courses

00:34:41 now the training in relation to the call the training on the course in relation to which we have this certificate also included training on fire doors didn't it

00:34:51 didn't it if you say so so yeah well that's uh yeah i i i'm asking you

00:34:57 cst3030219 if we can look at that

00:35:04 uh this is the first page of the uh of

00:35:10 uh of a powerpoint okay delivered by mike floyd an fpa trainer and it's part as you can see of nos 5 underpinning knowledge and risk

00:35:22 5 underpinning knowledge and risk assessment of high risk premises and the title is fire door repairs and upgrading period buildings and if you go so first of all just looking at that do you remember having training under nos5

00:35:37 remember having training under nos5 on fire doors yes this is a dot this is a document you've produced if we turn the page to page two you can see that in the middle of the page there's a

00:35:48 that in the middle of the page there's a picture

00:35:48 picture photograph door repair and upgrading and it says

00:35:52 it says overhead closers should meet bsen1154 door should close in less than 30 seconds and latch and there's a photograph of a door closer with bs 8214

00:36:05 of a door closer with bs 8214 1990 there do you remember having training on self-closing doors i would remember you did

00:36:12 did yes yes i don't remember it specifically but you accept that you did have it yes yes um

00:36:19 you mentioned the sleeping guide a moment ago do about you take you to at least this course addressed the fire safety guidance available at the time in this under the sleeping guide which

00:36:30 in this under the sleeping guide which was published in the june of 2006. yes yes i can't remember the dates if you say so yes um let's look at the nms 3 course then

00:36:41 um let's look at the nms 3 course then this you identify at cst 3030186 page 45 the first page of your appendix 6 which sets out the certificates we've seen before let's look at page 45 cst 3030186 page

00:36:57 let's look at page 45 cst 3030186 page 45

00:36:59 45 last entry on that page there fire protection association certificate nos3

00:37:05 nos3 evaluate design submissions against approved document b endorsed by the confederation of fire protection associations europe uh now in that course

00:37:18 now in that course uh we've seen some of the training materials that that you have given us first can we look at cst3030199

00:37:29 first can we look at cst3030199 let's have that up

00:37:34 this is external fire spread so we can take it that your nos3 training included training on external fire spread yes correct um and if you uh go please in that document to page 15

00:37:50 go please in that document to page 15 uh you can see uh that on page 15 start starting below the heading rain screen cladding

00:37:57 cladding uh there's a there's a lengthy chunk of text

00:38:01 text uh which uh refers to the the um essentially the context contents of approved document b in the second paragraph there you've got

00:38:13 in the second paragraph there you've got a reference to the provisions of diagram 40 in the first sentence for the outer cladding

00:38:18 cladding and then insulation for the external walls of a building over 18 meters in height

00:38:23 height should be composed of materials of limited combustibility uh with the exception for masonry cavity walls and then the reference at the bottom there to br 135 at that stage still in its

00:38:35 to br 135 at that stage still in its first edition 1988. uh although i questioned that actually that that's an interesting question did you know that the second edition came out in 2003.

00:38:47 out in 2003. no no this course may be a little bit out of date um never mind uh don't expect that something that you were trained on but you could see that you got training on at least those topics yes yes

00:38:58 on at least those topics yes yes uh and um

00:39:01 uh and um if you go to page 16 you can see that you actually got training on uh what was then or what what is said then to have been diagram 40

00:39:12 40 um did you pay attention to this bit of the course yes yes and you've got the key to external wall surface classification you've got class naught there in the in the in the middle box

00:39:24 the in the middle box on the right hand side and then underneath that it's not quite on your screen yet you can see the notes national classifications figure to scroll up thank you note one national classifications do not automatically equate with the

00:39:35 do not automatically equate with the equivalent european classifications therefore products cannot typically assume a european class unless they have been tested accordingly and then it says underneath that diagram 40 is fairly

00:39:46 that diagram 40 is fairly self-explanatory as long as it's remembered that it's only talking about the combustibility of the exterior wall and there's nothing to do with fire protection which is dealt with in section 14. was this all rocket science to you or did you understand it at the time do you

00:39:57 did you understand it at the time do you think

00:39:59 think i would have understood it this is uh how you compare a building construction to adb yes and if you go on then please

00:40:10 and if you go on then please to another module of the nos3 course cst 3030200

00:40:21 this is access and facilities for the fire service and if we go to page 15 in that please you remember seeing this this page insulating core panels

00:40:31 panels uh with a rather dramatic photograph

00:40:36 based on the historic experience of a fire at sun valley poultry which in which two firefighters died so bringing to your attention the need for fire safety with sandwich panels also cst3030201

00:40:54 uh which is about insulating core panels itself that you actually had a a whole section on insulating core panels

00:41:01 panels you remember that part of the training not per se every part of it but yes i wouldn't i remember the training no well let's just focus on page six if we go into that please

00:41:12 um you can see there fire behavior of insulating core panels used for internal structures uh but then it goes on underneath the photograph to say insulating core panel

00:41:25 photograph to say insulating core panel systems are used for external cladding as well as for internal structures do you remember that yes you do uh and if you look at um if you look at

00:41:37 and if you look at um if you look at page six

00:41:38 page six uh you can see in the text above the photograph uh and i'm summarizing the text there that uh

00:41:45 that uh insulating core panels promote rapid fire spread

00:41:53 you see that yes prime really one of speed

00:41:56 speed this means that the officer in charge must react quickly indeed remember i'm doing this as a fire safety officer and building control officer not as an operational fire officer

00:42:08 operational fire officer yes but you are aware of the risk to buildings presented by insulating core panels forming part of external cladding systems yes yes

00:42:23 did you understand from your training on these topics that i've shown you so far that if there was rapid external fire spread it could or would perhaps compromise compartmentation of a building correct yes yes

00:42:43 uh how did you understand that training on external cladding would apply to your practice as a fire safety officer and then a fire risk assessor so can you

00:42:55 and then a fire risk assessor so can you say

00:42:55 say again yes did you get any sense of how the training on external facades uh and the use of for example insulating

00:43:06 uh and the use of for example insulating core panel systems in external cladding was relevant to your work as a fire risk assessor you're very relevant in what way because it

00:43:17 it the external facade of a building actually

00:43:20 actually breaches or goes up they complete outside of the building therefore it would breach any compartmentation internally can we look at your first witness

00:43:31 can we look at your first witness statement

00:43:33 statement please page 49.

00:43:47 and at paragraph 145 under the fso you say this

00:43:52 say this there has been some suggestion that the scope of the fsa should be deemed to require fire risk assessors to consider the external facade of a building rather than just the common parts

00:44:01 parts albeit so far as i'm aware no evidence has been induced to date to substantiate such an interpretation and then the paragraph 146 you say i have never understood this to be the case nor was this put to me in my

00:44:13 case nor was this put to me in my training on fras which i received from colin todd who ran the northern ireland fire safety panel fra training that i attended as referred to as paragraphs 11 and 24 roman

00:44:24 roman 2.

00:44:27 and then you go on to say furthermore from my experience both in the fire service and as a fire risk assessor neither is this the understanding of the profession nor common practice in addition i do not believe the lga

00:44:38 in addition i do not believe the lga guidance suggests that the external walls are part of the common parts of a building for the purposes of the fso fra neither do any of the types of fra identified in that document suggest

00:44:49 identified in that document suggest that the external walls are common parts looking at the training that you've got under nsnos3 that we've been studying the external wall panels diagram 40

00:45:01 wall panels diagram 40 insulation being of limited combustibility the dangers of of sandwich panels and the use of external cladding i'm summarizing them is it really true to say uh that you'd

00:45:12 is it really true to say uh that you'd never understood it to be the case um that the external facade of a building uh fell within the scope of the fsa the what you just said is correct the

00:45:23 the what you just said is correct the fire safety order is to do with the residential buildings is to do with the common parts or parts in common

00:45:31 in common the external facade of a residential building

00:45:36 building falls outside of the scope of the fire safety order so what was the purpose of being trained on the external facade of a building

00:45:47 on the external facade of a building then the document you showed me in the course before was to do with building control

00:45:52 control so i had a knowledge that external facades but it was a complete i that's a building control building regulations course this is the

00:46:04 building regulations course this is the fire safety order undertaking a risk assessment of the common parts of a residential building the external facade falls outside but i have knowledge of that

00:46:15 have knowledge of that how dangerous the external facades can be and i brought that up in my risk assessment yes i see well we'll come back to the question of the scope of the rra perhaps in due course

00:46:26 in due course after you undertook training on external fast spread rain screen cladding insulation and sandwich panels or insulating core panels in march 2006 as we've seen from the nos and os3

00:46:37 and os3 in particular did you ever undertake any further training on those subjects off the top of my head i can't give you a specifics but there would have been training because

00:46:48 training because um the

00:46:51 um the i know three two five persons except two so yes there would have been other training because there is

00:47:03 training because there is oh

00:47:07 first female firefighter to die fleur i think her name was she died in a co-op store and the insulated panel um

00:47:18 the insulated panel um sandwich paneling had an effect in there so yes it would have come up in trading elsewhere right during the course of your practice as a fire risk assessor were you aware of other national and international

00:47:30 other national and international cladding fires yes you were um for example the fires in the uae in 2012. yes you were we was like the torch

00:47:43 yes you were we was like the torch those were in 2015 in fact but yes yes torch as well you were aware of that i assume

00:47:51 i assume uh and were you aware of uh cladding fires

00:47:54 fires in in europe for example in ruby in france

00:47:57 france yes you were were you aware of the dangers of um acm polyethylene called panels yes when did you first become aware do

00:48:08 yes when did you first become aware do you think of the dangers of acm polyethylene chord power well i wouldn't have known it maybe as

00:48:14 maybe as acm but i would have known it as insulated core paneling right that's not quite the same thing in fact is it well the the pan there was a fire in scotland

00:48:26 the pan there was a fire in scotland irvine is that yes late 1990s 80s and 1990s all gone at court there are two

00:48:35 two uh sorry i can't right 1999 yes right that's gone at court okay sorry sir

00:48:42 sorry sir i see and that was i said that was it that fire that brought uh the dangers of uh rain screen cladding to your attention well there's a fire so as fire safety

00:48:53 well there's a fire so as fire safety you would that these are part of training courses that would have been run right or information on training courses how did you generally keep yourself up to date with developments in the fire safety industry

00:49:05 safety industry well as a firefighter afterwards after 2010 let's pick a date um going to exhibitions looking at the news

00:49:14 news keeping up to date uh by different cpd is one method or one courses a group of courses i go on

00:49:26 i go on it twice three times a year you go to a building around the country they run three four five different topics you get to pick

00:49:38 five different topics you get to pick which ones you want to go to two different rooms so you can pick um i still get today even uh emails from them saying these are the courses

00:49:49 courses uh go to exhibitions fire exhibitions things like that keeping up to date with national news and just talking to other uh fire risk assessors

00:49:58 assessors now appendix one to your second statement has a list of courses and events you attended but none of those uh were were on external fast spread and clapping is that right without looking at that course i can't

00:50:09 without looking at that course i can't say well let's let's go there again then please

00:50:12 please appendix one to your statement is that cst

00:50:18 3030186 page 45.

00:50:24 just scroll down those over the next that page and the next two pages just look at those if you would age 45 now 46

00:50:36 cast your eye down that and then age 47 cast your eye down that is is there anything you see there which you can identify for us

00:50:47 you can identify for us as comprising a course or an event on external fire spread or cladding

00:51:03 no no is there a reason why you didn't seek out further training on that particular risk in order to keep your knowledge up to date um i kept up to date by downloading

00:51:15 um i kept up to date by downloading information and doing self

00:51:20 tpd specifically on external fast bread and

00:51:25 and loads of different topics right did that include you say loads of different topics does that is that a yes including external fast bread or cladding or loads of different topics not including external fire spread or

00:51:36 not including external fire spread or collating both but it could be both i would look at anything that was a flavor of the month or b that i thought

00:51:45 thought was relevant so right for instance one item that come was coming up very well

00:51:54 while i was still undertaking fire risk assessments is electric cars batteries lithium batteries that's a very big topic at the moment

00:52:03 moment yes so i but cladding as they were different fires around um especially in middle east i would keep up to date right so you

00:52:14 i would keep up to date right so you mentioned the torch earlier did you when you saw that fire in 2015 did you undertake any flavor of the month

00:52:23 month style training as a result of that did you go in did you examine it

00:52:31 i'm just trying to remember actually where i was in dubai is this the one in dubai yes yes i actually went to the building you went because i was i was on holiday there and we actually went past that

00:52:42 there and we actually went past that building i think yes i've seen a fire risk assessor on holiday in dubai might want to do that so you actually went to the building from the water yes i think right did you did you

00:52:55 right did you did you discover at that time what the rain screen panels were comprised of off the top of my head i can't remember no sir

00:53:04 sir right it must have been quite a striking event for you he's black all over the outside yes yeah

00:53:12 and and so just to be clear you were aware at that time this is 2015 that this was a cladding fire yes yes can i just thought did you actually see

00:53:23 can i just thought did you actually see the fire or just the aftermath it's the aftermath

00:53:27 aftermath now in respect of training about fire safety and disabled persons um we can see that you can uh well we'll have it up anyways cst 3030155

00:53:38 3030155 please this is an nos course number four and uh it it's a course entitled firefighting lifts atrium buildings and

00:53:49 firefighting lifts atrium buildings and means of escape for the disabled and the date is june 27th june 2005. uh you you you exhibited that i think it's also right that at some

00:54:01 i think it's also right that at some point you

00:54:02 point you completed a cpd seminar on fire safety for deaf and hard of hearing people the law and the solutions correct yes do you remember when roughly you undertook that course

00:54:13 undertook that course without looking at the document i provided during those no we haven't we haven't got a document you just got your your identification of it you don't know how many hours of cpd it covered offhand

00:54:25 how many hours of cpd it covered offhand or even on hand i think it was all day because if it's the course on the day out thinking of it was held at football ground

00:54:38 it was held at football ground arsenal football ground and there was a presentation on escape from the twin towers

00:54:49 right because it was relevant because of disabled people on the staircase right um how they were coping etc right

00:55:02 um if we go to uh appendix 1 of your statement please

00:55:08 and look at page 49. so cst 3030.

00:55:21 so cst 3030. uh there it is thank you uh you can see there higher up that page that on the 29th of november 2011

00:55:33 that on the 29th of november 2011 thank you 49 22nd item down 29th of november 2011 uh you uh uh uh attended a cpd day certificate of attendance at the

00:55:44 day certificate of attendance at the fire industries association fire risk assessor

00:55:47 assessor peeps issued by the fire industry association you see that yes um that dealt i'm assuming is this right with personal emergency evacuation plans

00:55:58 emergency evacuation plans didn't it yes yes and you have a certificate for that i'll just give you the reference it's cst 3030-169 there's no need to turn

00:56:07 turn turn it up was that the extent of your training on disabled persons and escape and peeps i did other cpd

00:56:19 part of as a pharisee i undertook some courses

00:56:22 courses especially evacuations from hospitals at one point i was actually a liaison officer for some new build hospitals in oxford right so part of that is uh how do you

00:56:35 right so part of that is uh how do you get

00:56:35 get disabled people or people in ict wards out right so i was quite familiar with this evacuation of people that

00:56:46 this evacuation of people that have got

00:56:49 limited control of their functions or they're sedated

00:56:56 on the subject of peeps do you remember whether during this training day any there was any training which included preparing peeps for residents of high-rise residential

00:57:07 residential blocks i can't tell you no looking at the date of this uh cpd day 29th of november 2011

00:57:18 uh cpd day 29th of november 2011 do you remember whether the training included training on the then just published lga guidance i would imagine it would have done right i can't tell you for definitely do you remember being

00:57:29 remember being taught anything one way or the other about whether you needed to prepare peeps for residents of high-rise residential blocks

00:57:40 high-rise residential blocks answer is yes i would have that would have been covered on that course i would have

00:57:43 have you remember what what was the i hate the word but let me use it what was the takeaway message in that respect

00:57:51 respect it's up to the um so that the responsible person has to undertake a peeps if one is needed or required for that person right thank you

00:58:01 thank you um now was that in 2011 was that your last training you did on peeps or with others after 2011. there would have been others but it would have been cbd

00:58:13 others but it would have been cbd so self-assessment yes right um can we go

00:58:17 go to um back to appendix one we'll stick with appendix one and stick with this page um you can see that on the top row 7th of october 2011 certificate of attendance at the fire industry

00:58:28 attendance at the fire industry association's fire risk assessor update cpd day

00:58:34 there what did that involve again can't right remember that far back sorry and then in if you look a little bit down uh you could see 12th july 2012

00:58:45 uh you could see 12th july 2012 certificate of attendance at the fire industry association's fire risk assessor the law cpd day um what did that involve from memory

00:58:56 um what did that involve from memory it was as how are prosecutions uh evolving at that time prosecution's under the rro yes any other legislation again without

00:59:08 any other legislation again without looking at any course notes or anything i can't tell you sorry but you clear you clear you're clear about the rro at any rate

00:59:13 rate yes that's why they i would have gone on the day yeah exactly because that's the primary piece of legislation relevant to yes i apologize i have talking of you

00:59:24 to yes i apologize i have talking of you yes how it would affect risk assessors um

00:59:28 um i'm just trying to remember is this roughly the time that the risk assessor was prosecuted 2012. well you would have to tell me beyonce sorry i can't remember the date right um

00:59:40 i can't remember the date right um do you remember whether that training course uh it covered fire safety matters arising from the lack of house fire

00:59:51 the lack of house fire in 2009

00:59:55 i was going to say yes if if it was a topic on the discussion at that point he would have covered that right now if you go to your second witness statement please page eight let's look together

01:00:08 page eight let's look together at paragraph 25 point roman 6.

01:00:15 roman 6. you say attending a sorted training provided by cs todd and associates uh and then you identify that and then you say in particular i recall attending a talk

01:00:24 a talk on the then new lga fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats guide 2012 which i have a document handout containing the slides presented at that talk

01:00:35 talk this is exhibited at css20 and it's at cst 3030 can we just have that up please

01:00:48 you uh have the first page there one day course

01:00:51 course cs todd fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats and if you go to the second page we can see that

01:00:59 see that it has training dates for 2013 which gives you a rough idea of the timing of this document or that that course

01:01:08 course and then if you go to page 10 of the handout um we can see that you receive some further training on

01:01:19 training on uh what is called disabled evacuation if you look at the box at the top of your screen

01:01:23 screen on the left yes and in that box it refers to personal emergency evacuation plans the fourth bullet out of five yes can you remember

01:01:34 bullet out of five yes can you remember what you were taught about peeps not put not accurately no it was a training course a long time ago right it would have covered a peeps

01:01:45 right it would have covered a peeps what's involved how um this government has a document that lays out it's one of the suite of documents under risk assessment

01:01:57 documents under risk assessment so i'm going to guess it covers most of the information in that is the person um capable of getting to a door capable of

01:02:07 of hearing seeing movement what's the mobility

01:02:11 mobility yes do you remember being told on this course that that a fire risk assessor did not have to worry about peeps because they didn't

01:02:22 about peeps because they didn't they weren't required for residence of high-rise residential blogs i doubt that would have been said sir now can i ask you to go to page 36 in this document please

01:02:35 go to page 36 in this document please page 36 uh again uh we have disabled evacuation and again personal emergency evacuation so this looks like it it was gone into

01:02:47 so this looks like it it was gone into in quite some detail you see that yes now you also see in that uh

01:02:53 that uh box the last bullet point information box

01:02:57 box what were you taught about that do you remember so this is 2011 isn't it sir

01:03:04 sorry 12 something that these uh information boxes were predominantly for

01:03:14 i'm gonna get at this time would have been for residential care homes or something

01:03:19 something along those lines right and if we look at page

01:03:22 at page 11 uh

01:03:25 11 uh i'll show you a number of pages before i ask you the question first page 11 see on the uh

01:03:39 at the top of the in the top box regular building regulations the second bullet point there is classic contraventions are internal doors and flat entrance doors

01:03:52 doors and flat entrance doors page 30.

01:04:01 uh you can see on page 30 also reference to doors under the middle box flats internal moe common issues and then the third bullet

01:04:12 common issues and then the third bullet point

01:04:13 point self-closing devices removed stroke disabled so you were clearly trained on that yes correct um and in fact that was at that time do you remember quite a prominent uh or prominently expressed

01:04:26 uh or prominently expressed part of the lga guidance yes yes yes and then at page 39 to 41

01:04:36 if you look at 39 you can see fire resisting doors you see the bottom box

01:04:47 and it says option based on risk assessment except original national fund door upgrade the door upgraded strips and seals

01:04:55 seals replace with f d 30 s door and frame and then there's handwriting just to the right of that is not

01:05:06 right of that is not an fd30s door exclamation mark will improve but exactly how something no one knows is that your

01:05:18 something no one knows is that your handwriting no it isn't right okay you can't help me decipher it um either way do you recall being trained that when you're replacing

01:05:31 being trained that when you're replacing a fire resisting door one of the options is to replace it with fd30s

01:05:37 fd30s yes yes and the s stands for spokespeople called colts

01:05:45 and if you go to page 30

01:05:48 uh sorry page 17 of this document well now let's turn the page say i'm so sorry i

01:05:53 i just stick with this section for the moment um if you turn it to page 40

01:06:00 page 45 resisting doors top box left hand side third bullet point fitted with self-closing device rising butt hinges should be changed that was a that was clear to you wasn't it yes but the old-fashioned rising butt hinges

01:06:12 the old-fashioned rising butt hinges should now be replaced with self-closing devices uh and there are other issues as well such as the glazing letter box by hole and cat flap and then if you go to page 41

01:06:24 then if you go to page 41 top box left hand side fire resisting doors uh

01:06:28 doors uh second bullet point down five to six stores upgraded 30 minute doors and then third bullet over six stories fd30s doors and frames so you had training on

01:06:39 doors and frames so you had training on that yes

01:06:40 that yes yes page 17 please uh earlier on in this document shows that you had training top left-hand box pier on pas 79 and the nine steps there

01:06:54 pier on pas 79 and the nine steps there um was was that the 12th was that the october 2012 edition of ps79 or was it still the 2007 edition do you remember i have no

01:07:05 2007 edition do you remember i have no idea so right you also if you go to page 18 you also see there that you had training on the competence standard for fire risk assessors

01:07:14 assessors you can see that there in both in all boxes

01:07:17 boxes uh as well as ucas accreditation and you look at the bottom of that you can see that there's a new competency criteria for fire risk assessors and then page 24 in this document you

01:07:30 and then page 24 in this document you could we could see that you also had training uh on fire spread

01:07:38 bottom left hand uh bottom left-hand side

01:07:43 side first bullet point the potential for fast bending both the common parts and within flats should be considered uh and the top box existing blocks the risk increases with the height size and numbers of flats in a block

01:07:56 numbers of flats in a block and six stories and above should be 60 minutes so you have training on that as well

01:08:01 well yes did that training include smoke spread as well as fast bread do you remember well i would have thought it would have done uh yes if you have fire spread would be

01:08:13 uh yes if you have fire spread would be smoke

01:08:14 smoke the seeds fire now can we go to your second witness statement page 7 paragraph 25 roman 5 please you could see there

01:08:25 please you could see there that you you say that you attended annual fire lectures given by the worshipful company of firefighters one of these lectures were titled the fire lecture 2014

01:08:34 2014 high rise not high risk and included certain aspects of firefighting in high-rise buildings as well as many fire fighting related matters i exhibit a copy of the program in my

01:08:45 i exhibit a copy of the program in my notes which record and i'll just read it off your statement timber frame is stay put appropriate fra must be building specific breaching of compartments during refurbishment work fras need to be

01:08:57 refurbishment work fras need to be better

01:08:59 better and if we go to your notes let's just look at those cst 3030142 page five please

01:09:13 um these are your notes correct um and uh you can see feb 2014 high risk generic risk assessment

01:09:24 generic risk assessment is that a reference to the february 2014 gre gre 3.2 i would have looks like it yes gra 3.2 published by the dclg at that stage

01:09:35 published by the dclg at that stage right and then timber frame is stay put appropriate and you've set out well rather there is the manuscript which you've transliterated in your statement yes um these are your notes who was the

01:09:46 yes um these are your notes who was the speaker do you know

01:09:51 are you are you recording i should ask the question are you recording what was said during the course of a lecture yes right who was the speaker do you know london fire brigade organized it wishful company of

01:10:03 organized it wishful company of firefighters and the speaker was from hong kong and i please do not even i cannot pronounce his name or cannot even think of his name

01:10:12 name was it we can see the speakers in fact on page two so that may help you uh uh and

01:10:20 one of the speakers uh is uh jones young yes right was that him so um he was the person from hong kong

01:10:32 so um he was the person from hong kong uh chief foreign he was given a very good talk

01:10:35 good talk uh because of the way the buildings hong kong has a lot of high-rise buildings

01:10:42 um and the speakers throughout as you can see there the notes i was i would have taken those notes as uh they spoke

01:10:53 uh now you've written in your notes we'll just go back to page five of this document

01:11:01 uh fras need to be better what was it about fras that needed to be better

01:11:08 better you remember not specifically um no not

01:11:17 uh can we can we take it then that from

01:11:23 may 14 and that just marked that point as a date you were aware that there was a risk that refurbishment work might present a risk to compartmentation looking at everything we've looked at knew that before yes

01:11:34 knew that before yes uh right as a result of this lecture in may 2014 you didn't change anything in your practice or did you

01:11:47 so a long time ago so do i actually ask to remember that what did what would i have changed it was a heart it highlights the specific points um the one that on here the one i've

01:12:00 um the one that on here the one i've noted is timber framed it's right construction of buildings plays an important part especially high-rise residential if you've got concrete floors concrete

01:12:12 if you've got concrete floors concrete walls around the flats and the compartmentation line flat to common part is six inches of poured concrete

01:12:23 is six inches of poured concrete and its um ability to withstand fire is higher than a timber-framed building

01:12:31 building constructed today where the only concrete compartment shaft in the building is the staircases where in older constructed buildings it

01:12:43 where in older constructed buildings it was the staircase was concrete the floors were concrete the walls of the flats onto the lift lobby area corridors were concrete where now they just stopped partitioning

01:12:55 where now they just stopped partitioning mr chairman we're going to change topics now and it may be convenient to do so i won't finish the topic before the the last minute would it be better to stop now probably would be yes yes right well mr stokes as you were told earlier we have a break during the

01:13:08 told earlier we have a break during the morning in the afternoon so we'll take a break now we'll resume half past 11 please and i'm going to say to you on this occasion and probably every other occasion you leave the room please don't to talk to anyone about

01:13:19 please don't to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much you gave the action

01:13:30 please

01:13:37 right how fast you level them please

01:32:44 would you ask mr stakes to come back in

01:32:51 [Applause] please

01:32:54 please [Music]

01:32:56 [Music] right mr stokes thank you okay ready to carry on good thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman uh mr stakes i'd like to turn to the subject of your fire

01:33:07 like to turn to the subject of your fire risk assessment work when you are at salvos please um now you started workforce elvis on the 24th of september 2009

01:33:18 the 24th of september 2009 and if you go please to your first witness statement please page six paragraph 14 you say that you were taken on as a subcontractor

01:33:30 just look at it there that's what you say

01:33:33 say you say um it was a as a subcontractor to salvage that i first became aware of the tower that's grenfell tower i'm assuming yes um but if we look please

01:33:45 um but if we look please at sal 702 i want to show you what mr furness

01:33:50 furness andrew furness says he was the director of salvas at consulting and if you look at the third paragraph of this document dated august 2019 which he has provided

01:34:02 dated august 2019 which he has provided to the inquiry he says this no contract with c.s stokes and associates would ever ever discuss and agreed as carl stokes was employed personally and he worked as a member of the salvas

01:34:13 and he worked as a member of the salvas team not as a subcontractor underlined as mr salva is mr furnis wrong

01:34:30 my understanding was i was a subcontractor look at the paragraph above it

01:34:35 above it following a meeting with carl stokes an offer of employment was made by letter copy provided this offer was accepted and he provided a p45 new employer form to salvas showing the leaving date from his last employer as being 24th of september 2009

01:34:48 employer as being 24th of september 2009 this also being the date he commenced work

01:34:50 work for salvas consulting limited did you provide a p-45 new employer form to salvas as mr furnis says i must have done if that's what he said right

01:35:00 right when you or once you joined salvas did you receive any training

01:35:06 none springs to mind who did you report to

01:35:12 um the lady in the office sorry i think it was his

01:35:17 was his other half kate kate and then um i worked with a former colleague of mine who i worked

01:35:28 a former colleague of mine who i worked in the fire service with

01:35:32 so you don't remember the name of your line manager when you were at salvas well if i needed anything i i would speak to

01:35:39 speak to say the lady in the office kate or who was who was uh um andy finesse's wife i believe and very i don't think i could ever ever

01:35:50 and very i don't think i could ever ever rang up andy per se and said uh i talked to him i would talk to the my colleague who i used to work with who's that a person called steve wayne

01:36:02 who's that a person called steve wayne steve wade wayne wayne i've seen the name we'll come back to that maybe in due course looking at uh the middle of the page here

01:36:10 here or at the foot of the page in the foot of the screen in your case all members of the salvos team receive considerable support from other members of the risk assessment team the md and support staff

01:36:21 support staff salvage consulting limited operates a quality control process for both technical and administrative areas and sign off for each assessment following appropriate levels of revision where required is undertaken by the managing director

01:36:33 is undertaken by the managing director and then he goes on to say this process took place for all fire risk assessments completed

01:36:39 completed for the kctmo please see revision number on grenfell tower fire risk assessment and emails exchanged between andrew furness and carl stokes are attached is what he says there correct yes so if

01:36:52 is what he says there correct yes so if i

01:36:52 i i undertook the work and then he reviewed then came back right so your work would be peer reviewed by andrew furness would it yes and what other support did you receive

01:37:03 and what other support did you receive while you were at salvos

01:37:08 in training wise this

01:37:15 may have been some how to fill their form in electronically

01:37:22 do you recall the quality control process governing fire risk assessments in place at salvas at the time the quality control would be a peer review by

01:37:34 a peer review by mrs alves andy salvas himself right spanish himself it's right is it that once you left salvas and were awarded the fire risk assessment contract by the tmo initially

01:37:45 assessment contract by the tmo initially for the medium risk properties uh you no longer had access to selvus's support system guidance and quality control as far as i'm aware yes yes so what's when you when you left

01:37:57 yes so what's when you when you left salvas

01:37:58 salvas and started up on your own what support or peer review or quality control systems did you have in place

01:38:08 and i was selfie um sole trader so yes i would myself that was it so the answer to my question is none i think

01:38:19 answer to my question is none i think none yes right when you work for selbus how many fire risk assessments did you carry out do you think i know it's difficult to be accurate again i would not know that's all right

01:38:31 again i would not know that's all right but was it tens or hundreds tens right and how many of those do you recall

01:38:37 recall roughly were on high-rise residential

01:38:42 buildings

01:38:46 2030s something like that i'm just trying to think it would be rbkc tmo yes did you attend any of the meetings between selvus the tmo

01:38:57 meetings between selvus the tmo and the london fire brigade no

01:39:01 were you told anything about what had been discussed and agreed in meetings between selvus the tmo and the lfb i would have been but i can't remember in their information or you know

01:39:12 information or you know it was never a sit down right did you ever look at the minutes were you ever shown the minutes or notes of those meetings doesn't nothing no now in your first

01:39:24 doesn't nothing no now in your first witness statement at page six at paragraph 15 you say this if we can have that please

01:39:36 you say the first time i visited the tower was on 30th of september 2009 for the purposes of carrying out an fra 2009 fra

01:39:47 as well as visiting the tower i was also provided with various information by the kc tmo

01:39:53 kc tmo and you give some examples for my first involvement with the tower it was apparent

01:39:57 apparent that stay put was the evacuation strategy in place for the residential floors

01:40:02 floors and that the commercial premises had a fire alarm stroke evacuation as a strategy

01:40:06 strategy which is not unusual for premises of this sort

01:40:09 this sort and you've exhibited two spreadsheets there

01:40:12 there and you've given the references let's just have them up cst403121 is a different reference but the same

01:40:23 is a different reference but the same document and also cst three four zero three one two four

01:40:30 um that that's three one two one is is can you explain what that was this looks to me to be the

01:40:43 tmos property reference building reference house number street postcode and the estate it's on yes and then various details for each

01:40:55 yes and then various details for each for each

01:40:55 for each each property yes uh and what about cst403124

01:41:01 cst403124 if you can have that have that up please what was that

01:41:23 to me that looks like a documentation for fire alarm systems within the flats right now you were working for salvas at the time these documents were given to you were you given any other information

01:41:34 you were you given any other information about the tower do you think other than spreadsheets of this kind

01:41:41 so i'm trying to remember um documentation uh on the previous one it had systems within it

01:41:50 within it i would have asked for when they were last tested and serviced and stuff like that

01:41:55 that whether that would have come through tml or salvage i've got i can't remember right and how would that information come to you would it come by email or email right did you see any previous risk assessments that had been completed

01:42:07 risk assessments that had been completed for the for grenfell tower specifically no not no did you ask for them when you did your 2009 risk assessment i would have asked for the

01:42:19 would have asked for the yes right and what were you told i can't remember

01:42:22 remember but i if i if i hadn't been given them that means they weren't available or salvaged they had the meetings before your visit what instructions were you given regarding the substance

01:42:34 you given regarding the substance of the fra that you were to carry out residential areas of the tower right and what what instructions were you given about inspecting flat entrance doors specifically do you remember common

01:42:45 specifically do you remember common members right uh well let's just look at a document sal 6040 please this is a note of a briefing meeting we

01:42:57 this is a note of a briefing meeting we just look at page one of that please to start with um it's a briefing meeting of the seventh of september 2009. you were not present

01:43:06 present janice ray was together with andrew furness and steve wayne the gentleman you referred to just earlier both of co of salvas and if you look a little bit lower down

01:43:17 and if you look a little bit lower down the page

01:43:18 the page lower down on the screen uh underneath project objectives and scope of work 2.1 fire risk assessments fras and reviews and it says the fra and fra reviews will

01:43:31 and it says the fra and fra reviews will include an individual examination of each fire door including whether it operates correctly that's in quotation marks steve saw clarification of what this would mean practically

01:43:42 practically in terms of quantity of flat entrance stores to be assessed janice advised that she expected a random sample of doors to be inspected and assessed specifically where many doors were clearly identical several should be

01:43:53 clearly identical several should be inspected and where there was a wide range of door types it would be helpful to inspect as many of the different types as possible and where possible comment on the fire safety of all do you recall being told by steve wayne

01:44:05 do you recall being told by steve wayne or perhaps janice ray that a random sample of flat entrance doors had to be inspected and assessed when it came to you doing your fra at grenfell tower at the end of that month

01:44:18 grenfell tower at the end of that month specifically no but i would have undertaken a random sample because otherwise i wouldn't have known what the doors were how they were constructed now can we go

01:44:31 how they were constructed now can we go to your first statement please page 18 paragraph 54

01:44:42 this is underneath the heading process of carrying out fras and you say though the process by which i carried out the various fras for the tower varied slightly by virtue of the circumstances

01:44:53 circumstances i.e the 2009 fra was the first fra i undertook for the tower and thus required further investigation such as an initial familiarization with the tower

01:45:02 the tower so as to understand his layout and key features

01:45:06 features how did you go about carrying out the inspection for the fra starting at the top and working my way down right floor by floor floor by floor and how long

01:45:17 how long did it last do you think

01:45:23 norm four or five hours four hours right would it have been included knocking on flats to gain entry to inspect the flat entrance doors if it was yes you did do that did you yes

01:45:35 yes and uh what

01:45:39 what differed between your visit on the 30th of september 2009 for that first fra of grenfell tower and any future visits to the tower that you later undertook

01:45:54 well follow-up visits i would have known the layout of the building afterwards after that right but the first time is to actually find your way a way around the building the layout

01:46:06 around the building the layout and more importantly where all the services and rises etc etc so did you make any notes of that visit i would have done yes do you know where they are now probably

01:46:19 do you know where they are now probably destroyed

01:46:19 destroyed right you say probably destroyed what was your document destruction policy so far as you had one when you were operating as a sole trader after 2010

01:46:29 2010 um

01:46:32 if i was to do a follow-up i would take documents yeah the risk is to have significant findings with me from the last

01:46:41 last one and anything once i'd done the new one

01:46:44 one the other documents would be destroyed right

01:46:47 right did you have a policy of destroying documents after a period of time not a specific period of time and to be honest once the pile got too big it was cold from

01:46:58 the pile got too big it was cold from the bottom upwards right where did you work from generally home

01:47:02 home home did you have a study at home yes at home right and your documents would be kept there with that yes um can we go please to cst 403128

01:47:15 cst 403128 this is the fire risk assessment dated 30th of september 2009 for grenfell tower

01:47:21 tower you can see that from page one of this document

01:47:25 document can we go to page five please within it

01:47:31 and on page five you can see under general information at the very top

01:47:38 it says landlord name rbkc and then responsible person chief executive of rbkc responsible person contact on site tenant management

01:47:50 contact on site tenant management organization warden persons consulted during assessment janice ray and just in relation to who was the responsible person looking at that it sends to suggest that both

01:48:03 sends to suggest that both and uh the tmo were the responsible persons

01:48:08 persons is that how you saw it this would have been the information i would been given to put down as a responsible person i said after the meetings that others had did you question that

01:48:23 uh i can't say definitively no right was it always your view thereafter that both are bkc and the tmo were responsible persons for the purposes of the rro

01:48:39 yes now looking at the reference persons consulted during assessment ms janice ray of the tmo

01:48:49 what did that consultation involve do you remember

01:48:55 information on the building i would have asked for

01:49:00 asked for um certificates lift um maintenance records fire and dry rises anything like that did you have a meeting with her or did you communicate with her by email

01:49:12 or did you communicate with her by email or telephone i'm going to say at this time all all everything went through salvos office right but nonetheless did you

01:49:23 right but nonetheless did you have a meeting with her where she gave you the information or did she send it all by email i'm going to say it comes with salvas's office by email i always thought so right and at the bottom of the page

01:49:34 bottom of the page um you can see uh it bottom left-hand corner do you see it says um

01:49:42 says um fire fire salt one rev four grenfell tower um does that tell us that this went

01:49:53 um does that tell us that this went through four revisions before being finalized that's what it looks like yes can you remember why this went through four revisions

01:50:04 there was backwards and forwards because of

01:50:08 of layout and information required in each part

01:50:12 part backwards and forwards between whom myself and andy finesse right

01:50:19 so does that tell us that there was in effect

01:50:22 effect a quality control process under which this fra was reviewed in fact at least twice yes

01:50:33 and is it fair to say that it would not or did not go out to the tmo as the client

01:50:40 unless and until and andrew furness was happy with it correct

01:50:46 now we'll come back to this document repeatedly during your evidence but i'm going to leave that this one there for the moment and ask you about the tender that you did for the tmo work

01:50:57 the tender that you did for the tmo work um

01:50:58 um you remember that in 2010 you submitted a tender to the tmo didn't you yes uh and as part of the exercise can we go to cst 705 please

01:51:14 as part of that exercise is it right that you were sent this document this is a consultant's brief fire risk assessments medium risk program july 2010 yes yes and do you agree that

01:51:25 july 2010 yes yes and do you agree that this

01:51:26 this document that set out the requirements and standards to be provided when carrying out fra work for the tmo under its medium risk program

01:51:37 risk program yes now if we go to page three please to start with you can see paragraph 1.1

01:51:48 paragraph 1.1 this brief specifies the requirements for fras in the communal areas of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea the council council's housing stock these properties are managed by the royal borough of

01:51:59 managed by the royal borough of kensington and chelsea tenant management organization limited the tmo this brief provides general information relevant to the commission and details the service requirements and standards to be provided

01:52:10 to be provided so you understood that this document was essentially the cornerstone of what you were going to do if you got the job yes yes um now if you go to page 25 in that document please page 25

01:52:22 in that document please page 25 halfway down the page you can see that there is a heading quotation submissions section seven and under section

01:52:34 section seven and under section 7.1 d little raymond three at the bottom of your screen bottom of the page it says uh details of professional qualifications in particular fire risk assessment qualifications and experience

01:52:46 qualifications and experience of the project leader and proposed team members who will carry out the assessments now when you saw that presumably you understood what it was you had to provide

01:52:57 provide yes yes yes um and presumably you understood that that was so that the tmo could make a proper

01:53:03 a proper and fully informed selection of um the professional who was going to carry out this uh program yes yes now we've got a pack of certificates that you sent to

01:53:14 pack of certificates that you sent to the tmo

01:53:14 the tmo and those are at tm00880581 let's just look at those

01:53:28 uh we can we can we can scroll through them

01:53:34 uh just just have a look and see what that is that is a certificate of public liability and products liability insurance with all the details redacted uh and it continues in in that

01:53:46 redacted uh and it continues in in that vein

01:53:46 vein and down to uh page six for example is where the certificates begin and we've seen one or two of these before page six page seven

01:54:00 before page six page seven uh is about shaft ventilation page eight certificate of uh completion of an fia training course page nine uh fia training course etc etc

01:54:13 page nine uh fia training course etc etc um is it right that although you sent them this pack of certificates you sent them no details of your fire risk assessment qualifications and experience that'd be great yes yes now if you go to

01:54:24 that'd be great yes yes now if you go to your first witness statement please a paragraph 50

01:54:32 um you say you say there that you also provided a sample fire risk assessment

01:54:43 and you've exhibited that if we look at that please that's at

01:54:51 cst403071

01:55:01 uh and and there it is it's for 41 high street

01:55:06 street w10 uh

01:55:10 w10 uh did you provide that to the tmo as part of the

01:55:13 of the as part of the tender yes yeah and was that in advance of your interview i can't remember whether it was in advance it would have if you're telling me i had to provide this beforehand the answer is yes

01:55:24 answer is yes you did um looking at page three if we can please we see a statement here of the qualifications that you say you had

01:55:36 and it's under the heading assessment completed by and i'll just read it to you

01:55:40 you mr c stokes aci arb fpa dip fp europe fire eng fpa nebosh fi abs 5839 system designer

01:55:52 nebosh fi abs 5839 system designer competent engineer bs4 5266 if he assessor stroke auditor fso 19 years fire safety experience with local fire authority in enforcement

01:56:03 with local fire authority in enforcement and auditing roles three years as an independent fire risk assessor member of the construction industry cpd certification service professional indemnity insurance cover provided by hiscox

01:56:14 provided by hiscox enhance crb checked

01:56:19 so that statement of qualifications is this right was to assist you in your application to become the tmos fire risk assessor for the medium program medium risk program yes

01:56:30 medium risk program yes yes now i want to look at those qualifications in a little bit of detail but before i do do you accept that that paragraph is mirrored across all of the fire risk assessments

01:56:42 the fire risk assessments that you ever did for the tmo

01:56:46 it would have been updated but yes updated

01:56:49 updated in certain respects but certainly but otherwise mirrored um if you um uh look at [Applause]

01:57:00 [Applause] if you look at the post nominals um were they included to lead the reader to think that you had these qualifications

01:57:11 think that you had these qualifications and professional body memberships

01:57:15 in hindsight looking at this this could have been worded a lot better i had to look up what what the word post nominals actually meant these were these were designed to show courses and competence

01:57:29 courses and competence and training courses passed as required by the fire safety order yes can you just answer my question were they included the post nominals means the letters

01:57:40 the post nominals means the letters after your name okay all right do you agree

01:57:44 agree that you included those says to lead the reader to think that you had the formal qualifications and professional body membership set out here

01:57:54 correct that's what they are there for and is it fair to say that you wanted to create that impression in order to improve your prospects of winning the tender

01:58:02 tender they are my courses i have attended and exams i have passed to get those courses now let's just look at the first one aci arb that indicates that you're an

01:58:15 arb that indicates that you're an associate of the chartered institute of arbitrators correct that has no bearing on your role as a fire risk assessor does it um

01:58:27 as a fire risk assessor does it um yes i think it does because it you have to negotiate between builders um the client there's the risk assessor find out information

01:58:39 find out information on the building so i think it does have a bearing on risk assessment right uh in your second witness statement

01:58:51 uh in your second witness statement let's go to that page five paragraph 21b

01:58:59 you deal here with the next post nominal fire eng fpa that i've just shown you and at page five paragraph 21b you say this designation refers to the various

01:59:11 this designation refers to the various nos courses i took the certificates for which are appended at appendix one and we've seen those um would you agree that

01:59:20 that in fact the post nominal fireang fpa doesn't actually exist it is the course nos 11 and 12. yes but the post nominal

01:59:31 post nominal fire eng fpa is not actually doesn't isn't actually a post nominal it's not like i'd never wanted to be a post nomination they were courses attended i could have worded it a lot better by saying

01:59:43 worded it a lot better by saying the following causes right yes and neither the post nominal nor the surrounding text make any mention of the nos courses

01:59:54 do they no no instead you've opted to use something called fireang fpa which is not which is a post normal which doesn't exist

02:00:05 which doesn't exist i don't say so they uh they were never meant to be post nominals they were meant to be qualifications training and experience as required by the fire safety order

02:00:16 the fire safety order um fire engineer fpa is a nos course which is 11 and 12. you're not a qualified fire engineer no way no but it get using

02:00:28 way no but it get using uh fire eng fba tends to suggest that you might be somebody who didn't know anything about it might might be led to think that you were a qualified fire engineer and i would have if they would ever ask me what i told them i wasn't yes but

02:00:40 me what i told them i wasn't yes but those who didn't ask you would have been left with

02:00:42 left with that uncorrected impression wouldn't they in hindsight say i see where you're coming from well do you agree yes yes um

02:00:55 yes yes um similarly looking at the next one nebosh we can stick with this page uh no sorry i'm so sorry let's go back to the

02:01:03 to the uh let's go back please to the

02:01:09 fire risk assessment that you sent it's page three of cst403071

02:01:20 nebosh [Applause] and then after that fia bs 5839 system designer competent engineer bs

02:01:31 system designer competent engineer bs 5266

02:01:33 5266 those aren't post nominals recognized by any professional body are they they're courses attended yes but they're not post nominals they're recognized by any professional body are they no and they the certificates

02:01:45 are they no and they the certificates for those courses don't give you any authority to use those post nominals do they

02:01:49 they they're industry standard courses but they don't give you any authority to use those post nominals do no no um going back let's keep this on the screen if we can please and go to

02:02:00 screen if we can please and go to paragraph 21c of your second witness statement at page five nebosh itself

02:02:12 second witness statement is cst 303 0 186 page five paragraph 21c we can read across nebosh you say it

02:02:24 we can read across nebosh you say it paragraph

02:02:25 paragraph 21c certificates in relation to nebosh level 3 certificate in occupational health and safety and ios managing safely course are provided he provided those

02:02:36 provided those um but the nebosh uh is this right the the the nebosh general national general certificate doesn't entitle you to use any post nominals at all does it

02:02:49 no no no and as far as iosh is concerned if we look at the irs certificate that's at cst

02:02:58 3030-167

02:03:03 it says at the very bottom if we can blow up the certificate for that course possession of this certificate does not confer exemption from professional examinations which lead to corporate membership

02:03:14 membership of the institute of occupational health and safety would you accept that in the light of that qualification you knew that you couldn't use the post-nominal ios iosh um agreed but they were never meant

02:03:27 iosh um agreed but they were never meant to be post nominals as with hindsight these were courses and qualifications passed to

02:03:33 passed to in my view at the time to say that i was a competent person to undertake a risk assessment by virtue of course training and comp

02:03:44 virtue of course training and comp uh experience and the same applies to nebosh doesn't it you weren't entitled to use the post nominal or use a post nominal nebosh

02:03:53 nebosh by virtue merely of holding that certificate you agree great yes looking at the next one then if we can go back please to um your uh pro forma 3071

02:04:05 um your uh pro forma 3071 uh the next one is uh ife assessor stroke auditor fso you see that yeah um presumably you knew that the ife

02:04:19 yeah um presumably you knew that the ife was a professional body read was a professional body with a registration scheme

02:04:24 scheme at this particular time i don't know whether the scheme was in being or not but again with hindsight this was clarified that it should have been put down in assessor order to

02:04:37 been put down in assessor order to undertake an ife course yes not as a post nominal indeed but using the post-nominal iafe assessor stroke order to fsa would

02:04:48 iafe assessor stroke order to fsa would give the impression to the uninitiated or even to the initiated that you were registered with the ife wouldn't it it could be seen like that but if you looked it up i wouldn't be on their

02:05:00 looked it up i wouldn't be on their list and if anyone had asked me i'd have told them i wasn't yes and it's right isn't it that you hadn't actually applied at that time registration and indeed looking at the certificate you received which you've exhibited

02:05:12 cst3030166

02:05:17 it says at the bottom there and you've quoted it in your second witness statement to put 21g but let's have it in the original an ife-approved course is any course that has been assessed by the institution of fire engineers

02:05:28 institution of fire engineers as not equivalent to the institutions examinations in whole or part but which is of a standard and quality that is worthy of association with the institution now that sentence does not imply that

02:05:40 now that sentence does not imply that you can use a post nominal to indicate that you are an ife assessor or auditor does it correct

02:05:46 correct and you must have been aware of that at the time surely when you when you you wrote this into the 41 high street fra and sent it to the tmo no i was uh my understanding was that i

02:05:58 no i was uh my understanding was that i was putting down courses attended i was never there was never anything else to deceive or even highlight anything else but these are courses and competencies why didn't you make that clear with

02:06:10 why didn't you make that clear with hindsight it would have been a lot easier if i hadn't made it closer you say with hindsight as you kept saying mr stakes but the reality is that you must have known at the time that these post nominals had heard and either come out of your own head or

02:06:22 and either come out of your own head or because they didn't exist or were thoroughly misleading truncations of the fact that you'd done courses but hadn't actually obtained qualifications

02:06:33 qualifications do you accept that yes

02:06:37 let's just look at what mr todd says please cta 6011 page 58.

02:06:48 mr todd says that paragraph 6.48 on that page at the very foot of your screen it is clear that either mr stokes is somewhat lacking in understanding regarding the proper use of post

02:06:59 regarding the proper use of post nominals

02:06:59 nominals or that he was at least endeavoring to overstate his qualifications in either case the manner in which he set out the supposed post nominals would in my opinion significantly mislead clients and potential clients as to his

02:07:10 potential clients as to his qualifications regardless of his level of competence now

02:07:15 now that is mr todd's conclusion as a result of a close analysis of your stated qualifications um a paragraph four 6.46 of his report at pages 55-58

02:07:27 at pages 55-58 first of all have you read those paragraphs yes for coming here today do you accept the conclusion that i've just read out to you from paragraph 6.48 yes okay

02:07:40 yes okay and do you agree that by doing so you significantly mislead any reader of your fras as to your qualifications

02:07:49 no i don't because if anyone would have asked me i'd have explained and told them and from the first one i didn't understand the use of post nominals sorry can we then go back to your fra that we

02:08:01 can we then go back to your fra that we looked at before

02:08:05 cst40403071 page three again please after the post nominals

02:08:10 nominals uh which we've looked at and i've read this to you as well

02:08:17 uh you say uh three years as an independent fire risk assessor

02:08:25 assessor in fact it's right as you told us earlier that all while you were at oxfordshire you hadn't done any independent fire risk assessor work that's right isn't it yes in fact that only started when you began to work for salvas

02:08:37 to work for salvas uh on the 24th of september 2009. yes yes correct yes so so by the 29th of december 2010 which was the date of this document

02:08:51 which was the date of this document you had at most work for 15 months as an independent fire risk assessor i'd undertaken risk assessments before that

02:08:59 that but not for money or gain and again does that suggest that you exaggerated your experience as a fire risk assessor no you hadn't been an independent fire

02:09:12 no you hadn't been an independent fire risk success risk assessor for three years as at the date of this document had you

02:09:18 had you so the date of this document is sir 29th of

02:09:22 of december 2010. no

02:09:28 uh i'm so sorry i i've misled you um page one 21st of august 2010. so even more so yeah

02:09:40 and and that also had the potential to mislead clients as to the level of your experience you accept that yes yes now um if we go back to page we'll stick with page three

02:09:51 with page three you say member of the construction industry cpd certification service now in your fras for grenfell tower and you do amend this paragraph each year to

02:10:03 you do amend this paragraph each year to show the number of years of membership um in fact it's right isn't it that that only involved attendance of training courses yes yes there was no service or body of which you were no no no no

02:10:16 you were no no no no and again by suggesting that you were a member was inaccurate and potentially misleading well as a member i received emails from them i received documentation from them

02:10:27 i received documentation from them you apply for it and get it you don't just but you don't become a member of a recognized body do you it's never meant to be that narrative and you don't have any certification after 2009 to show that you attended

02:10:38 after 2009 to show that you attended training courses run by the construction cpd certification service after which data

02:10:44 data 2009 i've been on them i used to go on them at least once twice three times a year

02:10:49 year yes you haven't i don't think you provided any certification to show that you attended those training courses after

02:10:54 after 2009 um i don't know sir right i have i've been on the mic i still get emails today

02:11:01 today was it was it right to say that you were in in some way still affiliated with that organization in 2014 when you did your october 2014 fra for granted for the cbd yes

02:11:16 fra for granted for the cbd yes right

02:11:19 can we then go back to the tender application and the consultant's brief please

02:11:23 please cst 705 and look please at page

02:11:36 five

02:11:41 uh on that page you can see quality three point naught and under that 3.1 consultants are expected to provide a consistently high quality

02:11:52 quality service and should be able to demonstrate through documentation that their organizations are capable of maintaining a quality standard that satisfies

02:11:58 satisfies all contractual requirements the tma require

02:12:01 require consultants to be able to satisfy the provisions of a quality management system set out in bsen iso 9001 and preferably be registered to a ucas certification body

02:12:14 how did you demonstrate to the tmo that you could satisfy the provisions of en iso 9001 uh i don't think it ever came up sir

02:12:25 uh i don't think it ever came up sir so they didn't ask you and you didn't uh demonstrate or or or purport to demonstrate that you could satisfy those provisions no right

02:12:38 those provisions no right during your interview were you asked about your competence my competence yes

02:12:45 were you not asked um can you satisfy the provisions of quality management under bseni iso 9001 i wouldn't remember sir

02:12:58 if we look um at page three please back to page three and look at paragraph 1.10 at the foot of the page we may have to blow that up

02:13:09 to blow that up it's a little small on the screen there the consultant's appointment will be for one year

02:13:15 one year for a one year period with a tmo only discretionary option to extend for a further one year subject to the consultant's satisfactory performance once you are appointed as the fire risk

02:13:27 once you are appointed as the fire risk assessor for the medium risk program is it right that your contract was never formally renewed that's correct just rolled along is that right yes

02:13:38 right yes right did you ever ask yourself why that was

02:13:43 was uh if they'd have what have they had a question i would have answered the question but it was never something that right ranked mine so you just let the sleeping dog lie and just kept taking the kept taking the work that's the way you interpret it but

02:13:56 that's the way you interpret it but yeah it didn't come to my mind yeah i'm not criticizing you for it i just was trying to work out what happened so so did did the tmo ever tell you that your appointment was to be treated as

02:14:07 appointment was to be treated as permanent until terminated no it just just carried on just so it was just a working assumption that you would carry on yes right um now i want to ask you about your appointment for the low risk blocks

02:14:18 your appointment for the low risk blocks it's right that you were appointed to be the first assessor of the low-risk blocks

02:14:24 blocks and you signed a contract for that on the 24th of august uh 2011. that's right isn't it yes yes i wouldn't know the date but is it right that you never had to um or application for that position or

02:14:35 um or application for that position or go through a formal procurement process in memory that's correct do you know why that is no did you you must have been happy with my work right

02:14:46 work right uh was it your understanding that the contract for the low-risk blocks included the same terms and conditions as set out in the july 2010 consultants brief that we're looking at here which governed

02:14:58 here which governed your contract for the medium risk blocks yes yes and again is it was it your understanding that your position undertaking that work was never formally renewed but continued

02:15:09 never formally renewed but continued indefinitely yes

02:15:22 indefinitely yes uh now it's also right i think as you've set out in your statement of paragraphs first statement of paragraphs 25 and 26 at pages nine and ten i don't think there's a need to go to it that you were also asked to carry out fire risk assessments on high-risk

02:15:34 fire risk assessments on high-risk buildings

02:15:35 buildings from 2010 onwards yes yes but you never signed a contract for those did you correct right and again were you never required to go through a formal procurement or application process

02:15:46 procurement or application process i was never asked no who asked you to carry out assessments on high-risk buildings from 2010 onwards do you remember

02:15:54 i'm going to say um contact uh janice ray at cmo right she was was she basically the person from whom you took your instructions and to whom you reported

02:16:05 instructions and to whom you reported yes

02:16:10 and you say and i'll just cite it the paragraph 26 of your first statement of page 10

02:16:15 page 10 that you always operated on the understanding that all the work you did or c.s stokes and associates limited did for the tmo was governed by the terms contained in the july 2010 consultants brief

02:16:26 consultants brief yes that's right yes

02:16:31 um can i then keep with that document and examine some of the terms of the contract for the medium risk program

02:16:41 and as we've established now for all the work you did if we go to page six we can see the scope of work set out and

02:16:52 the scope of work set out and it says in the subheading fire risk assessments and reviews and under paragraph 1.1 fire risk assessments will be undertaken and reviewed regularly at a frequency dictated by the degree of

02:17:03 at a frequency dictated by the degree of risk the fra and fra reviews will include an individual examination of each communal fire door including whether it operates correctly and the findings will be clearly documented in each report

02:17:15 documented in each report and then if you skip down to 1.3 i'll read it all i'll read it all to you the um fras and reviews will focus on one the compartmentation of the building

02:17:26 one the compartmentation of the building and any possible shortcomings with it two the operation and adequacy of fire doors including their fire resistance rating and smoke stroke fire seals etc three adequacy of firefighting

02:17:37 etc three adequacy of firefighting equipment

02:17:38 equipment four adequacy of automatic detection system extraction systems sprinklers dry risers wet risers etc five assessment of the means of escape

02:17:48 escape to include final exit doors and assessment of secondary means of escape where present and its appropriateness viability emergency lighting

02:17:56 lighting signage etc six fitness for purpose of the building in relation to fire safety seven fire safety management systems and their recording procedures eight marking of fire detection and fire

02:18:08 eight marking of fire detection and fire fighting equipment fire doors including their fire resistance rating and smoke straight far seals and compartmentation on floor plans provided by the client where possible

02:18:17 possible and in all other cases to be provided by the consultant symbols and other information marked up on the drawings will be the same as in the hm government guides fire safety risk assessment

02:18:30 now is it right that a new fra a new fra was the first fra that you would carry out on a building and an fra review was any subsequent review of the same building

02:18:42 review of the same building yes and in your first witness statement at page 16 paragraph 47 to 48 you say and i'll i'll i don't need to take you to it um prior to 2011 the lga guidance had not

02:18:55 prior to 2011 the lga guidance had not been published but i was effectively carrying out type 1 fras with elements of type 3

02:19:01 of type 3 as they came to be categorized when lga guidance was published in in 2011. now let's just look at the detail of what you're talking about there in the lga guidance can we go to that please hom 30 45964

02:19:15 that please hom 30 45964 page 44 paragraph 35.1

02:19:26 yes 34 scope of a fire risk assessment 34.1

02:19:33 34.1 uh i identifies

02:19:38 i'm so sorry 30 i'm i think i need 35.1 at the foot of the page thank you types of fire risk assessment and if you turn the page

02:19:51 you've got type 1 common parts only non-destructive

02:19:59 and it says in the first and second paragraphs a type one fire risk assessment is the basic fire risk assessment required for the purpose of satisfying the fso

02:20:09 the fso the inspection of a building is non-destructive but as well as considering the arrangements for means of escape and so forth the fire risk assessment includes examination of at least a sample of flat entrance doors it also considers

02:20:21 of flat entrance doors it also considers so far as reasonably practicable the separating construction between the flats and the common parts without any opening up of construction however in this type of fire risk assessment entry to flats beyond the

02:20:32 assessment entry to flats beyond the area of

02:20:32 area of the flat entrance store is not involved and then

02:20:36 and then type two you can see the common part is only destructive and then on page 46 top of page 46 type 3

02:20:45 3 common parts and flats non-destructive and it says in the first paragraph a type 3 fire risk assessment includes the work

02:20:55 work involved in the type 1 fire risk assessment but goes beyond the scope of the fso they're not the scope of the housing act this risk assessment considers the arrangements for means of escape and fire detection i.e smoke alarms

02:21:07 fire detection i.e smoke alarms within at least a sample of the flats within the flats the inspection is non-destructive but the fire resistance of doors to rooms is considered measures to prevent fire are not considered unless for example in the

02:21:19 considered unless for example in the case of maintenance of the electrical of heating installations the measures are within the control of for example the landlord now just just pausing there it's right to think that a type 1 fra inspection

02:21:31 to think that a type 1 fra inspection requires you to gain access to a sample of flats

02:21:34 of flats in order to inspect the entirety of the flat entrance door but nothing else within the flat correct the type three fra on the other hand requires you to make further inspection arrangements within the flat

02:21:45 inspection arrangements within the flat beyond the flat entrance door so that you would look at arrangements that are um within the scope of the housing act but outside the scope of the um the rro yes only to what i've said

02:21:56 um the rro yes only to what i've said yes so is it right that when you're conducting a type 1 fra you need to inspect the entirety of the flat entrance door inside and out even just as part of a sample correct

02:22:07 sample correct yes and is it right that you need to inspect the inside of a flat entrance door because you need to inspect the strips and seals which you can't see from the outside it fitted it fitted

02:22:19 fitted it fitted and also the clothes the self-closing device if fitted yes uh which unless it's an external self-closing device you can't see from the outside and in this country i think it's right

02:22:30 and in this country i think it's right isn't it that all doors open inwards and therefore the self-closure will be on the inside or within the door frame and no you can have them on there i've seen them before where they're on the outside of the flats right were there

02:22:41 outside of the flats right were there any in the tma stock you recall not they're not springs to them no no um now if we go back to page

02:22:53 um now if we go back to page 45 and look at type 1 and the second paragraph

02:23:02 uh in the third line there's a reference there to a sample of flat entrance doors um what was your understanding of what was required when the guidance here speaks

02:23:14 required when the guidance here speaks of

02:23:14 of examining a sample of flat entrance doors by which i mean what kind of percentage proportion of doors would you expect to examine to satisfy yourself that you had checked

02:23:25 satisfy yourself that you had checked a sample

02:23:29 the short answer would be if there's different types one of each type

02:23:36 if they were all the same and you knew that they were all the same throughout the whole building as long as you could sample few of those but if there was more than one type or

02:23:48 but if there was more than one type or style

02:23:48 style try and get as many samples or look at every one of those as possible

02:23:57 when you say as long as you could sample few of those what sort of percentage would you sample if you had 129 far dollars flat entrance stores all the same

02:24:07 the same how many would you sample on any fra

02:24:12 i can't say i would try and sample at least

02:24:16 least on average if i say a different way if i could hear music or something within the flat and i knew someone was in

02:24:24 in i would try and knock on that door if i could sample at least a handful you know if you said five out of every hundred that's five percent

02:24:36 hundred that's five percent i see um do you agree that the lga guy does not

02:24:40 does not caveat there's not warm that you were only required to sample to examine a sample of flat entrance doors if you could gain access it doesn't say that does it no what

02:24:51 it doesn't say that does it no what would happen if you couldn't get access i would ask are we going into the significant findings so if i found a door that was unusual different

02:25:01 different changed damaged it would go into the significant findings right now if we go to your first witness statement to page 16. let's look at paragraph 48 on this subject you say there

02:25:14 on this subject you say there paragraph 48 a type 1 fra meant that i carried out a primarily visual non-destructive inspection of the tower plus some additional inspection of the inside of front doors

02:25:25 the inside of front doors where i could gain access from a resident and was given permission to do so

02:25:31 and then you go on to say uh in those circumstances which were the elements of a type 3 fr8 which i referred i would check the self-closer and see whether there was a domestic fire alarm

02:25:42 was a domestic fire alarm system fitted in the dwelling in 2015 i was also

02:25:47 was also asked to check the heat interface units had some knowledge of this when conducting the april and june 2016 fras now this paragraph seems to suggest that you only consider that a check of the self-placing devices was required in the

02:25:59 self-placing devices was required in the case of a type 3 fra is that right well under the if i was doing a type 1 and i couldn't gain access i couldn't

02:26:11 and i couldn't gain access i couldn't then check the self-closers because i didn't have access internally so looking at that it would only be when you've got access to the flat could you check

02:26:20 check the self closer internally smoke seal if they were fitted or anything in sight so it was a type three if you could gain access that can't be right can it with a great

02:26:31 that can't be right can it with a great respect because type one requires you to sample the flat front doors

02:26:36 doors and and look at the self-closures correct

02:26:39 correct so that would then go to a type 3 because you were going inside the door because i'm looking at the type 3 would be to look at the fire alarm system fitted as well that i understand but do you accept that type

02:26:51 understand but do you accept that type three would not type three would not involve uh well rather type one would involve uh gaining access to look at the seals

02:27:02 uh gaining access to look at the seals and to look at the door closest yes that's in not only not only type three although under type three you could do that as well yes yes i see

02:27:11 i see so that that's a clarification um uh can we then look please at paragraph 42 of this statement on the previous page

02:27:22 page uh i want to address now the question of the compartmentation principle you say here when undertaking fras at the tower

02:27:30 the tower i was therefore essentially looking for anything in the common parts which would or could negatively impact the integrity of the compartments thereby undermining the compartmentation principle on which the tower was built

02:27:42 principle on which the tower was built and in turn the fire safety of the tower where i was given cause to have concern that compartmentation may be compromised i raised this in the significant finding schedules

02:27:51 schedules appended to the relevant fras now um i i want to just focus your mind there

02:27:57 there on your words anything in the common parts

02:28:01 parts that's what you say there and now i'll ask you to look please at the lga guide hom3045964 at page 26.

02:28:19 and if we look on that page at part 17 compartmentation you can see on the paragraph 17.1 it says

02:28:28 says the high degree of fire separation between flats and the common parts is achieved by making each flat a fire resisting enclosure

02:28:35 enclosure this is known as compartmentation a compartment is simply a part of a building bounded by walls and floors that will resist the passage of fire for a specified period of time the fire resistance of this construction

02:28:47 the fire resistance of this construction is such that normally a fire will burn itself out before spreading to other parts of the building and then if you look at the box at the bottom of the page it says in bold it needs to be ensured

02:28:59 it says in bold it needs to be ensured that a that the fire resisting enclosure of flats is maintained at all openings including and there are four bullet points

02:29:06 points first bullet flat entrance and other doors

02:29:10 doors second bullet any internal windows into the access corridor or any glazing above or around the flat entrance door third bullet openings in walls and floors for services such as water gas

02:29:21 floors for services such as water gas and electricity fourth bullet vents into shared air supply ducts but more commonly shared extra extract ducts from bathrooms and sometimes kitchens and then over the page

02:29:35 openings in walls and floors for communal heating systems and and then the next bullet doors and hatches in walls for access to read electricity and gas meters um were you always or at least

02:29:48 um were you always or at least after july 2011 aware of the principle i've just read to you here yes can we then look at the scope of a virus

02:29:57 virus risk assessment which is also governed by this guide at page 44 please paragraph 31 34 1 to 34 5.

02:30:09 34 governs scope of a fire risk assessment and 34 1 says as the fire risk assessment uh is concerned with fire safety within the common parts the flats themselves

02:30:21 the common parts the flats themselves are outside the scape of the fsa accordingly the scope of the fire risk assessment required by the fso does not include

02:30:28 include measures to protect residents from a fire in their own flat however it will normally be necessary to gain limited entry to at least a sample of flats

02:30:37 flats this is to examine the necessary measures to ensure when a fire occurs in a flat

02:30:41 a flat that there is not undue risk to other residents and we've we've already looked at that a little bit in the context of door closers and seals and then if you look a little bit

02:30:52 seals and then if you look a little bit lower down 34.5 bottom of your screen it says the fire risk assessment must also consider the maintenance arrangements for all measures required

02:31:03 arrangements for all measures required under the fso or in the case of equipment and facilities for the fire and rescue service under building regulations just looking at that would you agree that it was necessary for you to gain limited entry to at least a

02:31:15 to gain limited entry to at least a sample of flats in order to examine the necessary measures to ensure that when a fire occurs in a flat there is not undue risk to other residents as paragraph 34 1

02:31:26 identifies

02:31:30 yes we should be part of the type three uh you would you agree that an fra must uh must consider i'll take account of the maintenance

02:31:42 i'll take account of the maintenance arrangements for all measures required under the fso

02:31:48 all maintenance measures yes

02:31:52 so i don't understand well at 34.5 the fire risk assessment must also consider the maintenance arrangements for all measures

02:32:03 arrangements for all measures required under the fsa yes yes so and was that a principle that you were always aware of yes at least from the time of the publication of this guidance

02:32:15 the publication of this guidance yes yes now can we then look at pass 79 pas 79 2012 and appendix h of the competence

02:32:26 and appendix h of the competence standard this is cta 703

02:32:36 please uh now that is the first page of a document we're going to be looking at in some detail it's past 79 2012 and

02:32:47 it's past 79 2012 and it's entitled fire risk assessment guidance and a recommended methodology and if we go please to page 65

02:33:00 which is appendix

02:33:08 uh wait can we go to page 65. a moment

02:33:24 yes i'm so sorry page 73

02:33:36 a competent fire you can see in the second paragraph under this heading fire protection a competent fire risk assessor must have the ability to identify correctly the passive and active elements of fire

02:33:47 the passive and active elements of fire protection stroke design and their role in the provision of fire safety in the building this would include how they may interact for example if the fire alarm system triggers the door release mechanism to release held open doors to the closed

02:33:58 release held open doors to the closed position the fire risk assessor should understand the availability and value of third-party certification schemes pausing there do you agree that that was part of your job yes and further down the same page it

02:34:11 yes and further down the same page it says

02:34:13 says accordingly the fire risk assessor should be able to and you can see there are four sub paragraphs there one determine the need for fire protection systems and equipment

02:34:21 equipment two identify any major failings in the pa level of passive and or active fire protection provided by existing systems and equipment from documentation by observation and where necessary

02:34:32 by observation and where necessary inspection of the measures that are not immediately visible three within the action plan of the fire risk assessment write a brief outline requirement for new or upgraded systems and equipment four demonstrate an ability to correctly

02:34:43 four demonstrate an ability to correctly identify the purpose function and suitability of passive or active elements of fire protection and design or stroke design again do you agree that that was part of your role yes and in the in respect of the passive

02:34:55 yes and in the in respect of the passive and active elements they're listed on the right hand column of page 73 you can see them there under appendix h1 we just scroll to the top of the screen appendix h1 passive fire protection

02:35:07 appendix h1 passive fire protection and you can scroll down and see cavity barriers fire resistant ceiling systems compartment walls and floors and if we scroll

02:35:14 scroll further down fire doors and furniture and then over the page onto page 74 further items there

02:35:24 you see those there and and if you go to page 75 you can also see um the rest of the of the of the active uh fire protection measures would

02:35:35 active uh fire protection measures would you agree that you would need to have knowledge and understanding of their role of each of these different elements um in the provision of fire safety when conducting your work yes and and if we go to page 73 again

02:35:46 yes and and if we go to page 73 again please just back to that and i picked it up briefly but note the reference there uh to fire under fire doors and furniture second bullet point the importance

02:35:57 importance of suitable fire-rated iron-mongering eg self-closing devices latches so that was clear to you old times was it yes let's then turn to the subject of flat entrance doors

02:36:09 flat entrance doors can we get back to the consultant's brief july 2010 at cst 705 please page six um

02:36:18 six um and i want to pick up something i i i think picked up very briefly with you earlier

02:36:23 earlier on page six of this brief

02:36:27 which as we know contained the terms of your

02:36:31 your contract with the tmo throughout it's part two specification of services one scope of works and then under um 1.3

02:36:42 roman 2 the operation and adequacy of fire doors including their fire resistance rating and smoke stroke fire seals we looked at that earlier um you you accepted i think that that

02:36:56 um you you accepted i think that that was very much part of your work um but can we then look please at your first witness statement page 16 paragraph 44 you say there

02:37:11 pursuant to the scope of the fso as discussed at paragraph 36 above and in line with the contract siesta x was only required to assess the common parts i.e roman 2 3

02:37:23 to assess the common parts i.e roman 2 3 and 4 above as well as the lift lobby facing side of the flat entrance of the flat front doors but not the flats themselves i.e the common parts but not all of the compartments the

02:37:34 but not all of the compartments the insides of the flats and external walls of the building fell outside my room outside of my remit and in my view that of the fso again i discussed this further below at section f below now when you say

02:37:47 below now when you say the lift lobby facing side of the flat front doors you appear to be suggesting that you did not think that it was part of your role to check

02:37:55 to check the inside of flat entrance doors including the self-closing devices it doesn't sound as if that's what you're saying

02:38:05 i'm not you're not saying that no that's not it is not your evidence so to be clear it was part of your role to check the inside of flat entrance doors including self closing devices on around on the sample

02:38:18 closing devices on around on the sample yes yeah on a sample basis um that is a type 1 visual no right so when you say when you say as well as lift lobby

02:38:30 say when you say as well as lift lobby facing side of the flat front doors that's not right is it because in fact you were obliged to inspect on a sample basis the other side of the flat front doors and and and the existence of seals where

02:38:43 and and and the existence of seals where you could on a honest sample basis so we have to qualify that line do we yes yes can i ask you then about external walls

02:38:53 walls um in your first sticking with your with this statement your first witness statement can we go to page eight please and look

02:39:00 and look at paragraph 24.

02:39:05 and here you've highlighted that paragraph 24 uh the uh the fact that well you've highlighted paragraph 1.1 of part 1 of the brief and

02:39:18 of the brief and you've set it out you say this brief specifies the requirements for fire risk assessments fras in the communal areas and you've under you've underlined those

02:39:30 and you've under you've underlined those and then you go on to say at the foot of the page

02:39:37 however this definition plainly did not include the external walls of the building concerned as the fso does not either and i was not asked to approach the fras otherwise see further

02:39:48 approach the fras otherwise see further section f

02:39:50 section f now i just want to look at that a little bit more closely um can we look back please at pas79 at cta 703

02:40:01 at cta 703 page 73

02:40:04 which we looked at a moment ago under appendix h and on that page top of the right hand column if we can scroll up to it please h1 passive fire protection

02:40:19 the fire risk assessor should have a knowledge and understanding of the role in the provision of fire safety including the types of fire performance requirements load bearing capacity

02:40:30 requirements load bearing capacity integrity insulation reaction to fire performance etcetera of the following and i gave you the list before and then if you go

02:40:38 if you go down onto page 74 left-hand column let me focus you on it the very foot of the page

02:40:46 the page if you can blow that up please it says the building envelope left bottom left the building envelope eg fire resisting external walls curtain walls first bullet the

02:40:58 curtain walls first bullet the significance of their role in protecting escape routes at boundaries second bullet the significance of any immediately visible damage

02:41:05 damage third bullet the importance of remedying any immediately visible damage in sandwich panel constructions using combustible insulating core now given what's said there as i've shown

02:41:16 given what's said there as i've shown you in pas 79 would you would you agree that you were required to have knowledge and understanding of the fire resisting external walls in the provision of fire safety

02:41:27 safety yes and given that it states that you needed to know about the significance of their role in protecting escape routes at boundaries and immediately visible damage that suggests

02:41:38 immediately visible damage that suggests doesn't it that you are also required to inspect them as part of your as part of your task

02:41:49 the first one is significance of their role in protecting escape is at boundaries

02:41:57 yes so that's the boundary on the external the building so my understanding of that is the boundary as it affects a an external staircase that's coming

02:42:08 a an external staircase that's coming down the outside of the building or the building that's opposite would that also include the point at which someone leaving the building

02:42:19 which someone leaving the building in a fire would actually go out of the door

02:42:22 door that would be protected anyway sir because that's external facade of the building this here is protecting escape routes at the boundary i i would understand that to be the

02:42:34 i i would understand that to be the boundary

02:42:35 boundary because under building regulations the boundary means how close another building

02:42:40 building can be built to that construction

02:42:44 right thank you

02:42:48 and what about the significance of any immediately visible damage in the building envelope on that one it would only be out of practicality

02:42:59 it would only be out of practicality if you were say on the roof and they have a roof garden is there any physical damage

02:43:03 damage going back in because if it was an 18 floor building you would need a pair of binoculars or something to look up the building to try and find any damage further up or

02:43:15 to try and find any damage further up or how is there any visible damage on an escape route so for instance trying to put it into you know if you had an external staircase

02:43:26 had an external staircase and it was damaged around the staircase as it was coming down you would see that

02:43:34 yes did you ever read anything into what i've just read you here relating to the building envelope which would suggest that you should examine the building envelope

02:43:45 examine the building envelope with a view to seeing whether it posed a challenge

02:43:49 challenge to compartmentation in the building more generally

02:43:55 my understanding is that as i have highlighted in the risk assessment significant findings i qualified did the building envelope after the refurbishing if we're talking about this building

02:44:07 about this building did it comply with building rigs that was you know i had an understanding that the

02:44:11 the external facade could be a problem and that's my uh take was to say does it comply with building regs approval yeah my question is a slightly

02:44:22 approval yeah my question is a slightly different one which is did you ever read anything into this part of pas 79 which required you to examine the building end of the day with a view to asking the question how does this affect

02:44:35 the question how does this affect compartment the compartmentation of the building generally

02:44:39 generally as a fire risk assessor in as much as it's on the outside of the building yes what do you mean by that well because it's on the outside of the building it overlaps all the external

02:44:52 overlaps all the external um facades of the flats and

02:45:00 flats and explain the relevance of that to your job as a fire risk assessor um well it's adding something to the building that wasn't already there so if it was if we're talking about this

02:45:12 if it was if we're talking about this building and in relation to this building

02:45:16 building it was a concrete facade now they're doing something different so i highlighted that they're doing something different it must comply to building rigs yeah you're leaving aside the building regulations did you read anything into

02:45:27 regulations did you read anything into this part of pas79 that the need to consider the building envelope with a view to to asking the question how does that affect compartmentation

02:45:39 yes you did yes was that a routine did you do that routine you did right thank you we'll come back to that later um moving on then did you receive or were you aware of

02:45:50 did you receive or were you aware of letters sent by the lfb to local authorities which provided

02:45:55 provided guidance on fire safety matters to some yes

02:46:00 yes how would you get those routinely very generally

02:46:03 generally sometimes though in this particular case the tmo could pass them on to me right or you could uh the lfb have them on their website right let's look at an example

02:46:22 tm00870149

02:46:26 this is a letter from steve turek uh disclosed by the tmo although it's addressed to the london

02:46:37 although it's addressed to the london borough of brent uh let's not worry about how it comes to the tmo

02:46:42 the tmo uh it's a letter from steve chirik who was the assistant commissioner for fire safety regulation and it's dated as you can see the 17th of march 2009 and the heading is

02:46:53 of march 2009 and the heading is fire safety and social housing and if you look down the page lower down page one lower down on your screen

02:46:59 screen the second title down there is fire doors being wedged open resulting in both smoke spread and damage to self-closing devices and it goes on poor adjustment of

02:47:10 and it goes on poor adjustment of self-closing devices or inappropriate choice of closer type has been found to have caused fire doors to close very quickly and so loudly bang into their frame disturbing nearby residents

02:47:21 residents because of this residents wedged the fire doors or placed materials at the foot of the frame to stop the door fully closing and so avoiding the loud bang

02:47:29 loud bang repeated wedging of doors in this way was found to have weakened some types of door closes mainly those contained within the door structure to the extent that they failed to close fully closed even when not wedged

02:47:40 fully closed even when not wedged these circumstances have allowed smoke to easily spread through blocks of flats and ultimately to enter flats which would otherwise have been reasonably protected

02:47:48 protected from the effects of fire and smoke and then if you turn to page two you can see replacement windows and some text there

02:47:58 about replacement windows and on page three

02:48:02 three um we can see uh at the foot under conclusion he says uh as enforcing authority in the second line uh as enforcing authority for the

02:48:13 uh as enforcing authority for the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 we consider that the structure of the building and changes that have been made to it

02:48:20 to it levels of fire resistance eg fire stopping and working fire doors the availability of locations and sources of fuel for deliberate fire setting and ignition sources that are introduced to the premises are

02:48:32 that are introduced to the premises are matters that should be considered as part of a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment i'm sure that you as a responsible provider of social housing would agree that i would urge you to ensure that

02:48:43 that i would urge you to ensure that these matters are considered as part of your ongoing program of fire risk assessment and reviews of those assessments now the date of this as i've shown you is march 2009 at that time you were working at salvas

02:48:55 at that time you were working at salvas or force elvis do did you see this letter at the time do you think this letter is not familiar it's not familiar nonetheless did you think that in any case you had to inspect uh self-cleansing

02:49:07 you had to inspect uh self-cleansing devices on flat entrance stores in other words what's being said by steve turek would not have been a surprise to you had you seen the letter it's not a surprise at all

02:49:17 and what about the suggestion that the structure of the building and any changes to it should be considered as part of the fire risk assessment was that something that you understood uh from you from the time yes yes

02:49:29 from you from the time yes yes does that mean that you would expect inspect exterior panels when conducting your fra visits not per se but i wouldn't if they were

02:49:41 not per se but i wouldn't if they were a change to the building and being put on the building it would have to go through the building regulations process to start with right were you uh familiar with the fact that even though

02:49:52 familiar with the fact that even though you didn't see this letter at the time the lfb had raised these issues with providers of social housing in london in the spring of 2009. it wouldn't

02:50:03 in the spring of 2009. it wouldn't surprise me at all but did you did you know that in general they had done that not in general but it wouldn't surprise me if they had a diet why wouldn't it surprise you because i would have thought it would be part of their

02:50:14 their um five precautions work to inform you were working in the industry at the time was did do you remember any particular event that occurred which might have prompted

02:50:25 that occurred which might have prompted the lfb to write a letter uh reintroduction i think when your house was the date of latino house latino house was the third of july 2009 so it was pre-lag now

02:50:36 so it was pre-lag now um not it springs to mind as a right let's turn to a different topic um which is the appointment uh and the

02:50:47 um which is the appointment uh and the method of cap for carrying out fras that you pursued um you were notified i think this is right that you were the successful tenderer for the tmos

02:50:59 for the tmos medium risk program on the 23rd of september 2010 remember do you remember that no no if you told me that's the day that was the day

02:51:09 day well um i i can show you i can show you uh

02:51:13 uh uh a document yes uh i don't just believe in you sir yes uh well let me let me take a small run up to this do you remember meeting janice ray of the tmo

02:51:25 remember meeting janice ray of the tmo in 2010 before you were told you were the successful tenderer to discuss your appointment no what about at the moment you were told you were the winner were you did you meet her then and discuss your

02:51:36 meet her then and discuss your appointment um i don't know if it was over the phone i was told on what but i would have met her at that time right well let's go to a document cst40

02:51:58 please now this is a letter dated the 23rd of june

02:52:04 june 2010 from you to janice ray and in it it actually predates the consultant's brief document

02:52:15 consultant's brief document for the medium risk program because that's july 2010 and it says uh subject employee fire training personnel emergency and evacuation plans peeps

02:52:29 emergency and evacuation plans peeps and the lift maintenance servicing and testing policy in tmo controlled buildings dear ray after our meeting yesterday tuesday 22nd june 2010

02:52:40 tuesday 22nd june 2010 at 10 30 a.m in the hub uh kansas road north kensington i would like to excuse me clarify the following items and issues about employee induction and refresher fire

02:52:52 employee induction and refresher fire training

02:52:52 training the policies and documents covered today also have a relevant uh for fire warden training which is given to selected employees

02:53:02 you see that yes then it goes on when completing any fire risk assessments for buildings under the control of the tenants management organization tmo of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea and future and where tmo employees are present in the buildings

02:53:14 employees are present in the buildings the information in this letter will be used as the basis of the fire training and fire wardens section of the document the information on lifts will be used in the relevant section for fixed installations as well as in the section on

02:53:24 on disabled persons and their evacuation procedure when using lifts the peeps documents again will be used as evidence in the disabled persons section

02:53:35 were you were you meeting janice ray on the 22nd of june 2010 to discuss what to include in certain sections

02:53:42 sections well that's why yes yes uh why were you meeting her on that date in your in your well where are you meeting her in your capacity as fire risk assessor

02:53:53 capacity as fire risk assessor for stokes that's what it looks like yes why was that sorry i can't answer that question because this is before you had even intended for the fire risk assessment work with the tmo wasn't it i sorry i don't know the dates

02:54:07 wasn't it i sorry i don't know the dates i haven't got a um listed in front of me but let me i would be asking these questions sorry so i'd be asking these questions to fill out

02:54:16 out uh items within any risk assessment

02:54:22 uh right so you say any risk assessment well if i was undertaking a risk assessment i would

02:54:29 would these are the sort of questions if i was coming up with problems or the same type of

02:54:38 deficiencies at that point this is to clarify for all these points why were you meeting janice ray to discuss these matters in your capacity as a fire risk assessor

02:54:49 capacity as a fire risk assessor for cs stokes and associates limited i can't answer a question uh and the reason i suggest that that is before you'd even tendered for the fire risk assessment work with the tmo is because you only

02:55:01 work with the tmo is because you only submitted that tender on the 24th of august

02:55:04 august 2010.

02:55:08 i can't answer i don't know my recollection's not right i mean we have a document cst four zeros 2368 page four i just want to

02:55:19 2368 page four i just want to put that in front of you so that we can pin the date down in case it helps you that's the date of your tender okay uh so the question is why were you

02:55:31 okay uh so the question is why were you meeting with janice ray as c.s stokes an associate's limited to discuss an fra on the 22nd of june 2010 do you know no i don't

02:55:45 june 2010 do you know no i don't do you know when it was discussed and agree that you would be the tmos fire risk assessor no was it before the formal procurement process was at an end you know

02:56:04 we go back to the letter please uh cst 401887 was this for all buildings regardless of risk level

02:56:15 risk level in other words high medium and low there's no indication there for what it was for so i would say yes right right uh now we'll come back to the substance of

02:56:28 now we'll come back to the substance of the detail of the letter detail of the points in the letter later but in general was the purpose of this meeting

02:56:33 meeting to discuss how you would conduct your fire risk assessments generally or just in relation to the matters in this letter sorry i don't know do you remember whether you discussed the

02:56:45 whether you discussed the uh well the consultant's brief so far as it existed or a draft of that no i can't remember did you discuss your qualifications i would have done yes right what about the tender for the medium risk

02:56:57 the tender for the medium risk properties uh well we can see you didn't make that until later but was there any discussion about how you should go about making that tender i wouldn't have thought so i mean it wouldn't be uh

02:57:08 wouldn't be uh etiquette wouldn't right well let's go to the end of the letter please at page three you can see that you say there i would like to thank you for all the help

02:57:19 the help you gave to me yesterday because as we discussed it during our meeting the items covered in policy and procedure documents you showed me will help tremendously to reduce the question i may have needed to ask and give me and gave me a very good

02:57:31 and give me and gave me a very good understanding of tmo operating policy in relation

02:57:33 relation to health and safety issues what policy and procedure documents did janice ray show you

02:57:40 show you again i can't remember did you ask for any information about employee fire training peeps and lifts that's what it says there that's why i asked for it right was your is it your intention at the time that you would add

02:57:51 intention at the time that you would add that information to your fire risk assessments and then use that information repeatedly after that in all your fire risk assessments for the tmo unless it was updated i would just say yes yes

02:58:03 would just say yes yes and how would you get updates how would you get information that would require you to make updates generally email or telephone right on specific matters yes

02:58:16 and when you say it gave you very good understanding of the tmo operating policy in relation to health and safety issues

02:58:22 issues did that include an understanding of tma's operating policy in relation to fire safety or health and safety generally

02:58:30 generally it says health and safety there so health and safety generally i would have thought

02:58:35 thought mr chairman that that's a convenient moment it's we're in the middle of a piece of the chronology but it's a comedian yeah but if that's a good point i suggest we take a break at this point right thank you well mr stokes i think

02:58:46 right thank you well mr stokes i think we've got the point of which we will all to have a break for lunch so we're going to do that now we're going to resume

02:58:52 resume please at two o'clock and remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything

02:58:58 anything relating to it over the break all right thank you sir thank you very much we'd like to go to the usher thank you

02:59:16 thank you two o'clock please