Testimony from a bereaved, survivor, and resident (BSR) witness who was on the 14th floor with family members during the fire.
00:00:08 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin by hearing from another person who was in the tower at the time of the fire and then we shall read some of the statements of
00:00:22 shall read some of the statements of other people who were also yes mr. chairman good morning before we call our next witness I just want to say something on Monday the 8th of October
00:00:34 something on Monday the 8th of October last week I explained that we could not as we had planned read certain statements from bereaved survivor and resident witnesses into the record for the time being and I said I
00:00:46 record for the time being and I said I would provide an update as soon as possible I can now do that the reason for the pause was that a number of our LRS made representations about the redaction of personal data from be SRS
00:01:00 redaction of personal data from be SRS statements that only occurred after the inquiry had began to call BSO evidence we were rather taken by surprise by these representations given the cross
00:01:11 these representations given the cross disclosure of the statements from BSR witnesses had been ongoing for some months and the extent and the nature of the inquiries redactions would have been self-evident to the RL ours last week's
00:01:23 self-evident to the RL ours last week's pause in reading in the further BSR witness statements was necessary while the inquiry considered the representations that had been made we've now done that we've responded in writing
00:01:34 now done that we've responded in writing to the RL RS concerns and in certain cases we have made further and actions of material that witnesses originally wished to disclose or else we've removed
00:01:45 wished to disclose or else we've removed redactions of material which they now wish to disclose we've allowed an appropriate period of time for the relevant RL RS to respond to the inquiries proposed course of action in
00:01:57 inquiries proposed course of action in the absence of any further representation to date the inquiry will now resume its program of putting into the record witness statements from BSR witnesses who are not being called to
00:02:08 witnesses who are not being called to give oral evidence as I hope was clear from the approach that we intend with that we adopted we intend to do this in a manner which gives some context around the oral evidence which
00:02:20 context around the oral evidence which you are hearing good so I hope that's clear yes thank you very much I'll now turn over to mr. Rawat who will call our next witness thank you yes mr. Rohit good morning sir
00:02:32 good morning sir may I call rosemary oh yeah Wally
00:02:59 I swear by thank you very much like to
00:03:14 I swear by thank you very much like to sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:03:25 right yes thank you sir can you give the inquiry your full name please yet my name is Rose Marie or your will oh thank
00:03:37 name is Rose Marie or your will oh thank you very much for coming to give evidence today your continued assistance is very much appreciated by the inquiry before coming here you confirmed that you were willing to give evidence just in relation to phase
00:03:50 give evidence just in relation to phase one of the inquiry proceedings and that means that I won't be asking you questions today about Phase two issues but my questions rather will focus on the night of the fire I
00:04:03 will focus on the night of the fire I recognize that asking you to relive the events of the fire will be difficult and so if you need a break at any time please just say so we can stop there is
00:04:14 please just say so we can stop there is absolutely no rush my aim is to keep my questions short and simple if however I asked question that don't understand then please don't hesitate to stop me
00:04:27 then please don't hesitate to stop me and I'll pop the question in a different way
00:04:32 could we just go through the formality of putting your statement into the record miss Aria Willie it's at iws five zeroes eight five two if we could have
00:04:43 zeroes eight five two if we could have the first page of that what you'll see coming up on the screen that's on your desk is the first page of your statement that you made specifically for the inquiry if you're more comfortable with
00:04:55 inquiry if you're more comfortable with paper you'll see that there's a bundle just in front of you on the desk and it's a tab one if you need it thank you can we go please to page 28 of the
00:05:06 can we go please to page 28 of the statement see that the last part of the last paragraph we see begins I believe
00:05:17 last paragraph we see begins I believe at the facts stated in this which statements are true the witness names is dated the 20th of May 2018 and we can see a signature there can you confirm that that's your signature have you had
00:05:30 that that's your signature have you had an opportunity to go through the statement recently and can you confirm that the contents of the statement are true yes mr. chairman just for the record there are no exhibits
00:05:42 record there are no exhibits accompanying the Senate thank you
00:05:49 we start please just with a little bit of background it's right isn't it that you moved into flat one one three in
00:06:00 you moved into flat one one three in Grenville tower in about June 2013 yes and in June 2017 who was living in the flat with you just myself and how
00:06:17 the flat with you just myself and how old is your daughter at that time to choose four and the flat was on the 14th floor wasn't it yes how many bedrooms do have two bedrooms and by June 2017 is it
00:06:34 have two bedrooms and by June 2017 is it right that you'd been teaching science at a second secondary school level for some three years yes and were you working full-time yeah full-time could
00:06:47 working full-time yeah full-time could we please put up a meaty three zeroes one two five nine three please page 12 Thank You mr. Woolley if I could
00:06:59 page 12 Thank You mr. Woolley if I could just explain this is a layout plan of the fourth floor of the tower the same arrangements apply to the floors above the fourth floor and so and that
00:07:11 the fourth floor and so and that includes the floor that your flat was on so it gives us a layout of each floor I want to ask you just using this and questions about your neighbors who also lived on the 14th floor if I may we can
00:07:27 lived on the 14th floor if I may we can see that flat one which would be flat one one one if we were on the 14th floor we know that that was occupied by Dennis Murphy in your statement you described
00:07:40 Murphy in your statement you described him as a kind and gentle man and you explained that you only learned his surname after the fire how well did you know Dennis Murphy before the fire I knew Dennis remember the first day we
00:07:55 I knew Dennis remember the first day we moved in I came to him sort of view the place and I met him in the lift we went to the 14th floor together so he was one of the first people I'd say that I met that he knew I was going to be living there so we became friendly
00:08:07 to be living there so we became friendly from the first day I moved in really and so you describe him that you were on neighborly terms with him yes in flat 1
00:08:20 neighborly terms with him yes in flat 1 1 2 we know was Omar al Haj Ali and his brother Muhammad how well did you know them before the fire not very well but did you know them to say hello - yeah I
00:08:32 did you know them to say hello - yeah I just met them just just maybe a couple of months before the fire maybe six months before the fire five months ago fire and in flat one one five was saying
00:08:47 fire and in flat one one five was saying Abdeen her son how well did you know them but sadly her quite well did she move into the building after you and how
00:08:59 move into the building after you and how long had she been living there maybe a year so would it be fair to describe your relations with those who are living
00:09:10 your relations with those who are living on the 14th floor as being that of neighbors rather than friends yes if we could expand now the bottom corner flat
00:09:23 could expand now the bottom corner flat three please
00:09:32 this would match or should match the layout of your home in flat one one three and we can see that it had two bedrooms first question broadly does
00:09:44 bedrooms first question broadly does that match the layout of your flat yes we see that it has two bedrooms can you tell us which bedroom was yours and which was used by your daughter the first yes and so the bedroom closest
00:10:07 the first yes and so the bedroom closest to the lounge was the one that your daughter occupied and you occupied the other bedroom with your partner we can see that the front door we can see the
00:10:20 see that the front door we can see the front door on the plan and just beyond it in the communal areas we could see the words hydrant when you go into the flat just to the left there there is a space sort of opposite the bathroom can
00:10:34 space sort of opposite the bathroom can you tell us what that space was full at the bar forever yes if you go in if I'm if I come in through the front door on my left that appears to be a doorway that leads into a space sorry
00:10:48 that leads into a space sorry that was like a big closet thing that we turned into like a little playroom so this is a large storage area that you used as a playroom yeah if we were to
00:11:03 used as a playroom yeah if we were to assume that all the internal doors were open and the front door was also open and if a person was then standing at the front door looking into your home what
00:11:15 front door looking into your home what rooms could they see into you could see them to elevate room what about your daughter's bedroom what about the lounge
00:11:26 so if and that person standing at the front door wanted to move to look inside your daughter's bedroom through would they have to come in and go into the
00:11:37 they have to come in and go into the hallway yes and if we see you there on the work there's the word [ __ ] just on on the plan with if someone was
00:11:48 just on on the plan with if someone was standing at that point from that point could they look into your daughter's bedroom and then also begin to look into your lounge from that point they could
00:11:59 your lounge from that point they could see my into my daughter's bedroom but not into the lounge so where would you have to go to look into the lounge you'd have to walk past the toilets and she'd have to be
00:12:18 so you'd have to walk past this toilet and be standing on the edge looking in to look into the lounge at all and in June 2017 did your lounge have a door on
00:12:30 June 2017 did your lounge have a door on it yes and we see that on this plan one thing that isn't clear is whether if
00:12:41 thing that isn't clear is whether if what there was there was a partition between the kitchen and the lounge but were there any doors between kitchen and Lounge yes what kind of door was that sliding doors so once you're in the
00:12:53 sliding doors so once you're in the lounge to get into the kitchen you'd go through a straight straight through a sliding door is that right I just want
00:13:04 sliding door is that right I just want to ask a couple of general questions about the condition of your flat and the floor as of as at June 2017 I take you
00:13:15 floor as of as at June 2017 I take you back to your statement we're going to jump around the statement a little but if we go to page 21 so I wsh five to page twenty one please and just expand for us the two paragraphs that come
00:13:28 for us the two paragraphs that come under the subheading doors
00:13:36 what you say in this part of your statement is that the front door was replaced during the renovations of the tower and you've described the replacement doors thicker and heavier
00:13:48 replacement doors thicker and heavier with a draft excluder at the bottom and in letterbox which would automatically snap shut can I just clarify one detail with you please did your front door have an automatic
00:14:00 did your front door have an automatic closing mechanism on it yes and was that working in June 2017 yes one other point
00:14:12 working in June 2017 yes one other point that you make in your statement is about the stairs and we know that there's one stairwell in the tower and you would you
00:14:23 stairwell in the tower and you would you could access it fire a door on each floor one of the things you say is that you used the stairs to go up one floor to visit a friend who lived in flat 1 to
00:14:36 to visit a friend who lived in flat 1 to 6 and so that would mean you're leaving your floor via the door on to the stairwell going up two flights and then accessing the next level up wouldn't do
00:14:49 did the door from floor 14 your floor into the stairwell have a door closer on it yes and was that working at the time of the fire
00:15:00 of the fire yes now what you say in your statement is that when you went up to the next floor it's your friend Aziza who lived
00:15:11 floor it's your friend Aziza who lived in flat 1 to 6 isn't it you know see going up that the door that you would then use to get onto the 15th floor wasn't working can you just tell us in
00:15:22 wasn't working can you just tell us in what way it wasn't working please whenever I would go from the stairs to go into that door the door would already be ajar so I'd have to pull it open and
00:15:36 be ajar so I'd have to pull it open and then go in and then if I remember I remember thinking one day that what I'm trying to push it Chuck but it was the automatic door closed I was something was wrong with them
00:15:47 was wrong with them so it was quiet it was quite tired okay I just wouldn't it was hard to close the door basically say to stayed over and when you say ajar there was actually a
00:15:58 when you say ajar there was actually a gap yeah through which you could look into into the communal hallway full 15 yes before the fire itself when was the
00:16:09 yes before the fire itself when was the last time that you'd used that door to visit as either maybe three months before the fire
00:16:26 what I'd like to do now it's just I want to show you a photograph taken inside the tower and and after the fire mr.
00:16:37 the tower and and after the fire mr. chairman it's a photograph that we've seen before it's that of the fire safety notice so I think everyone here is aware of that image it's BL a four zeroes to four one six
00:16:50 it's BL a four zeroes to four one six please if I could explain please mrs. or miss Oh a wall a it's a fire safety notice that was sighted between the lips
00:17:01 notice that was sighted between the lips and this notice and this photograph was taken of the notice that was cited for the lifts at floor three do you remember seeing a notice like this between the
00:17:13 seeing a notice like this between the lifts on the ground floor possibly but I don't I wouldn't have taken much notice of that
00:17:27 do you remember seeing a notice like that on the lips that were on your floor yes if we look at the top of it what it
00:17:39 yes if we look at the top of it what it says is there is a stay policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat did that phrase stay put mean anything to you before the 14th
00:17:51 put mean anything to you before the 14th of June 2017 I've never looked I never seen that on never read down on that so it wasn't something that had registered with you at all no aside from this
00:18:07 with you at all no aside from this notice were you aware of any information from any organization or individual about what you should do if there was a fire in Graham coal town well we've profession whenever we have
00:18:22 well we've profession whenever we have we have lots of fire drills and whenever we have a fire drill it's always you know I'm the one in control saying to students leave your things enough we go so it's always registered in my mind
00:18:33 so it's always registered in my mind that whenever there's a fire we're off you know I'm not taking anything with me I'm just leaving the building was that something that influenced what you did
00:18:45 something that influenced what you did on the night of the fire yes
00:18:54 um can we turn now please to the events of that night and let's take you back to your statement I WS age 585 to page 5
00:19:06 your statement I WS age 585 to page 5 please and can we look at paragraphs 13 to 14 I won't read them out but I'll
00:19:18 to 14 I won't read them out but I'll summarize them for you you've explained in these paragraphs that we've got up on the screen that on the 13th of June you collected your daughter from the child minder and then you came home and you
00:19:32 minder and then you came home and you thought you've got home between 5:00 and 5:30 p.m. and then your partner got back a little bit later when you got back that evening were the lights working in
00:19:44 that evening were the lights working in the communal area yes so you have a clear recollection that they were on yes
00:19:52 you say that that you you watch TV and then went to bed at about 11:30 p.m. and you if we pick up the first line of paragraph 14 and say before we went to
00:20:05 paragraph 14 and say before we went to bed we made sure the windows in the flat were open did you leave every window open no so which windows had been left
00:20:17 open no so which windows had been left open at that time definitely the one in the kitchen and the one in our bedroom and possibly my daughter's bedroom
00:20:26 so doing the best you can the windows in the living room might have been closed yes
00:20:36 we could look on the same page please at paragraphs 15 to 16 you begin paragraph 15 by saying that your partner woke you
00:20:47 15 by saying that your partner woke you up at about 1:30 a.m. how are you able to estimate that time I think we all
00:21:04 to estimate that time I think we all appreciate that timings can be difficult is it a case of you working back in your mind yeah to a time yes and that's doing
00:21:16 mind yeah to a time yes and that's doing the best you can was that it was about 1:30 a.m. yeah
00:21:25 you've said that what you did then was you went to a window and you could hear people outside shouting and then after
00:21:38 people outside shouting and then after that you went to the front door and I'll ask you some questions about that in a moment would you remember whether you which window you would have gone to would it have been the kitchen window so
00:21:50 would it have been the kitchen window so which window did you go to from can you identify the window from which you heard people shouting our bedroom window what
00:22:03 people shouting our bedroom window what you say is that your partner went into action mode and you then went to the front door do you remember if you'd switched any lights on in your flat by
00:22:15 switched any lights on in your flat by this time definitely there would have been lights on because it was quite late so it would have been quite dark when we woke up it was quite dark in there in the room so the same probably sound on
00:22:27 the room so the same probably sound on the bedroom line and then the corridor line and you would have been able to as you showed us on the plan just step out of your bedroom window and the front door would have been in me not too far
00:22:39 door would have been in me not too far away yes
00:22:40 away yes so yes you would set out through your bedroom door yes and the front door was that would have been closed by wouldn't it yes
00:22:52 as you were approaching the front door was there any smoke coming through it into the flat and where was your
00:23:06 into the flat and where was your daughter at the time and Shawn was holding her so the three of you went to the front door together is that right yes what you say and it's the last
00:23:19 yes what you say and it's the last sentence is that your partner opened the door and we were instantly hit with thick stinking heavy smoke did your
00:23:32 thick stinking heavy smoke did your partner go out through the front door no sorry the first time no we just closed the door closed at all so it's just if
00:23:43 the door closed at all so it's just if we get the detail it was you opened the door saw the smoke and then closed it yes when you saw this smoke you
00:23:58 yes when you saw this smoke you described in paragraph 16 were you able to see through it at all no were you able to tell if the lights were on in the communal area no but does that mean
00:24:11 the communal area no but does that mean no you couldn't tell no you couldn't open the lights were on we were just it was pitch black to me and how I'm taking it from floor to
00:24:22 and how I'm taking it from floor to ceiling how far did the smoke go from floor to ceiling and was it literally just immediately outside your door as you opened it yes
00:24:35 can you say anything about the temperature in the communal area at that time not at that time it was really quick it was to you I just open the door
00:24:46 quick it was to you I just open the door we saw the smoke and then just closed the door back I wasn't really taking into account the temperature or anything
00:24:57 we look please at the next page IW i WS 8 5 2 6 and if we could have paragraphs 17 and 17 please
00:25:18 what you say here is that within seconds of the first attempt your partner walked out of the front door a second time and you say as soon as he left the front of
00:25:29 you say as soon as he left the front of the flat he disappeared into the smoke I could not see him
00:25:38 did you keep the front door open when your partners step through it yeah we all went so it's not there's not like he just sort of left and you know left me and just sort of went the idea was that
00:25:50 and just sort of went the idea was that we were all going to go out over the flat so as we got to the door and we open the door he left first so he went just in front of me and then I sort of
00:26:02 just in front of me and then I sort of spy stood at the door and yet there was smoke going inside the flap and this is now the second time that you've opened the front door can you give us any sense
00:26:16 the front door can you give us any sense of what conditions will apart from the smoke what conditions were like in the communal area it's very hot it was it
00:26:27 communal area it's very hot it was it was like it was choking it was I think I'll describe it is like a steam room so
00:26:39 I'll describe it is like a steam room so like in that small space there's just smoke everywhere you can't see look you know when it gets really really steamy you can't see like you could walk in and you'd have to look hard to see someone
00:26:50 you'd have to look hard to see someone but this you just couldn't see anything so he just disappeared into the smoke and how long was he gone I'd say like
00:27:01 and how long was he gone I'd say like five seconds wasn't long at all but within that time I just thought stood there thinking oh you know he was okay he went and I was I think was a shock of it thinking well it still it's really
00:27:13 it thinking well it still it's really smoky in the shot that he'd actually gone in front of me but then I thought if I follow him and I know that I can't see where he's gone if I go somewhere
00:27:25 see where he's gone if I go somewhere else and he comes back does that make sense sort of I didn't want us to lose each other so I fought our way I let him go and if he goes and he doesn't come
00:27:36 go and if he goes and he doesn't come back then at least I'll know that he's definitely gone in somewhere then I'll go that wasn't that was what was going on in my head and had you prior to opening the door had you heard the discussion about
00:27:48 discussion about direction you were going to go in no we just knew we were gonna go for the stairs we wouldn't you wouldn't ever use the lift in like in the case of a fire
00:28:00 if we look at paragraph 19 please
00:28:12 what you tell us the beginning of this paragraph is that your partner then came back into the flat did he tell you at that time how far he'd got once he'd
00:28:24 that time how far he'd got once he'd stepped out into the communal hallway no what did he look like when he returned
00:28:40 I'd say he looks like really shocked like
00:28:51 I'll say he looked really panicked like you came back and just looked really like you know i neva tempted to do something kalisch it's not it's not going to plan and you know I think from then I knew that we there was no escape
00:29:03 then I knew that we there was no escape route if that made sense so I think he had got that feeling when I really spend time looking at him I just took my daughter of him but I saw lucky in his face they was he was shocked so he'd
00:29:19 face they was he was shocked so he'd been carrying your daughter and then you took your daughter back and I think in your statement you say that you you then had to take her to to a window to get some air
00:29:31 because she was gasping for breath can you tell us a little bit more about what effect that smoke had had on your daughter I knew straight away that she didn't hold a lot of smoke because me
00:29:42 didn't hold a lot of smoke because me standing in that doorway just for that little moment of time I was inhaling the smoke myself but I know it wasn't as much as how much her and her dad heard him out so when she came back she just
00:29:54 him out so when she came back she just looked she was just quite frantic and she was a gasping so my first reaction was just to grab her I ran from the doll the way to the front room because I knew
00:30:06 the way to the front room because I knew that those windows are quite wide and I just stuck a head out of the window her to breathe in some oxygen did the smoke have any physical effect on you not at that time no I mean my
00:30:20 on you not at that time no I mean my throat was I felt chalky but not enough to feel like there was anything wrong with me I was just more focused on her so at that time you weren't spluttering or coughing coughing a little bit
00:30:36 and what about your partner did have any physical effect on him not that I remember
00:30:44 remember I don't know you might have I wasn't focused on him he was in a different place in there in the flat and did taking your daughter's that window help her yeah definitely I I know why I did
00:30:57 her yeah definitely I I know why I did it because I know that once you've breathed in like any sort of calm forced no or harmful spoke I know we will go into your blood so I knew that the next thing to do was to try and get some oxygen and more oxygen down her body to
00:31:09 oxygen and more oxygen down her body to try and combat that smoke that she breathed in can we look on the same page please at paragraphs 20 to 21 if we pick
00:31:25 please at paragraphs 20 to 21 if we pick it up just at the first sentence of paragraph 20 what you say there is that when your partner came back the farm in the flat went off then say the the end
00:31:38 the flat went off then say the the end of the power I was able to fan the smoke alarm just so that we can be clear is it the smoke alarm that you're referring to going off I don't know what went off I
00:31:49 going off I don't know what went off I just know that it was in the corridor and I know that it went off because of the smoke that had come in my first reaction the noise it was just too much noise and I think we were so disorientated what was going on that
00:32:01 disorientated what was going on that noise was just piercing in my head so my first we actually mystic once I brought her back just a funny stop it for making noise so I think you tell us in your statement that that you had two alarms
00:32:13 statement that that you had two alarms in the flat one in the hallway and one in the kitchen and it was the alarm in the hallway in the corridor that went off years so by this time was there
00:32:28 off years so by this time was there smoke in your flat yes and where was that smoke in the hallway so it had come through the open the door when you opened it is that right yes was there smoke anywhere else
00:32:42 right yes was there smoke anywhere else in your flat at that time no
00:32:49 again if you can help us with timing and tell me if you can't but in paragraph 21 you mentioned that after that second attempt to leave you received a call
00:33:00 attempt to leave you received a call from your daughter's child minder and you give an estimate at that time it's 1:35 a.m. or 1:40 a.m. again can you help us with what you base that time on please
00:33:11 please I'd based the time on thinking that we woke up at around 1:30 and I know obviously during the night things did happen quite quickly but I know that she was one of the first people to call me
00:33:22 was one of the first people to call me quite soon after I'd come back from that first attempt so I'd say about five to ten minutes after she called I mean the
00:33:33 ten minutes after she called I mean the chronology of events was that call from a child minder a call that you received before you rang 999
00:33:48 I would say she called me first because of the conversation that we had on the phone I didn't know at the time when she called me that the fire was supposedly
00:33:59 called me that the fire was supposedly on the fourth floor I just remember her calling me and saying there's a fire and I remember even asking her thinking in my head how did she know there was a fire because of wish they just saw where
00:34:10 fire because of wish they just saw where she lived
00:34:11 she lived I mean she lived so I remember asking her is your flat on fire I actually remember saying that to her as well use your flat on fire just thinking how would you know there's a fire in my flat so she she called me
00:34:24 fire in my flat so she she called me first I think can I turn to the know the first 999 call that we can link to you
00:34:36 first 999 call that we can link to you and I wanted to using a report that's been prepared by the lime London Fire Brigade it's lfb five zeros four seven nine oh please can we go to page 36 in
00:34:52 nine oh please can we go to page 36 in that document so zero zero the first 36 please if I could just explain a little more this this as a report has been
00:35:04 more this this as a report has been prepared by the London Fire Brigade and it sets out actions and key activities that were taken by their control room and the night of the fire and it's useful because it contains a
00:35:15 and it's useful because it contains a summary of the call that you made and if we look at the bottom at work says that's it
00:35:22 that's it now if I just take you through that CRO daddy takes a call with a female saying 1 1 3 hello CRO daddy responds with
00:35:33 1 1 3 hello CRO daddy responds with hello Fire Brigade caller sounds distressed and speaking very quickly a smoke alarm is sounding in the background and the caller states that there is smoke coming through the letterbox CRO daddy confirms that she
00:35:45 letterbox CRO daddy confirms that she was calling from Grenville tower and a switch for the callers on to which she replies the 14th CRO daddy advises the caller that the fires on the fifth floor caller says she does know what to do
00:35:57 caller says she does know what to do baby in the house she explains that the occupants have tried to run out there is smoke in the corridor and the whole corridor is black so they have run back in the house she also explains to CRO duddy there is smoke go to the next page
00:36:37 coming through the door and filling up the whole of the house cro daddy advises her to block up the doors to keep the smoke out he says he will let the crews know where she is
00:36:50 you you've seen the transcript of that call as well but we can see from that document and from the transcript that it has a time for the call of 137 and 58
00:37:04 has a time for the call of 137 and 58 seconds do you have a recollection now smoke coming through your letterbox that was after after that was when Shannon
00:37:17 was after after that was when Shannon would come back in and then we closed the door after I'd taken cause I see the front room I'd come back to the hallway and there was smoke like a lot
00:37:28 hallway and there was smoke like a lot of smoke and especially this week was covering for him that any crack in the door so the letterbox also had would have had like a little
00:37:40 also had would have had like a little crack in it and that's where smoke was coming from and also all the cracks so if we break that down a little you'd had the two attempts to leave through the front door you had taken your daughter
00:37:54 front door you had taken your daughter to the front room and then when you came back after that that's when you saw smoke still coming through yeah and it was coming through both the letterbox and around the frame yeah door
00:38:11 if you could just tell us it's just a description of your front door as well as a letterbox did you have any glass in it no so it was just solid apart from the LES box yes
00:38:30 I'll take you to the transcript of that call please lfb four zero six seven eight if we look at page one that if you
00:38:41 eight if we look at page one that if you could just expand that the top part event just so that you can orientate yourself miss or your wall a can you see that there's a long reference at the top there which ends in the letters three
00:38:54 there which ends in the letters three four three double zero P just before that there are the numbers zero one three seven five eight that's the time on the transcript of a call if we go to
00:39:06 on the transcript of a call if we go to page two however
00:39:20 and can we just expand the bit where the operator says where's the smoke coming from and then the answer thank you
00:39:31 from and then the answer thank you you're honest where's the smoke coming from and you respond it's coming from this corridor the whole corridor the whole corridor was black we tried to run out in their smoke we couldn't see far
00:39:42 out in their smoke we couldn't see far so we had to run back in the house but their smoke coming through the door as we speak like now they smoke filling up the whole of the house just so that we can be clear wait where you're referring
00:39:54 can be clear wait where you're referring here to the whole corridor what are you referring to the communal corridor so that the area where the lifts are and the bin house etc him but you're they're
00:40:09 the bin house etc him but you're they're saying that there's smoke coming through the door as we speak they smoke filling up the whole of the house which part of your flat was now being filled up with smoke the hallway
00:40:21 being filled up with smoke the hallway the bedroom just all that all that area that was smoke it wasn't as thick as what was outside but there was thick black smoke coming in through the frame through the freedom with the doorframe
00:40:32 through the freedom with the doorframe and through the letterbox um how forcibly was that smoke coming through I couldn't control him he was just coming
00:40:44 couldn't control him he was just coming through and we've seen the layout of the plan of your hallway how how much of
00:40:55 plan of your hallway how how much of that hallway was filled with smoke
00:41:05 I'd say all the way well it was at least so the boy sorry though would it help if we go back to the plan yes yes m83
00:41:16 we go back to the plan yes yes m83 zeroes one to five nine three please page 12 and let's expand the awesome
00:41:27 page 12 and let's expand the awesome southwest corner please flat three
00:41:34 so you take us from the front door when the smoke was coming in where was it going - inside your flat so it filled up
00:41:48 going - inside your flat so it filled up your entire hallway and then you described earlier going into the bedrooms we've got your bedroom and your daughter's which bedrooms were being penetrated with smoke towards our
00:41:59 penetrated with smoke towards our bedroom do you have a recollection now smoke coming into your house as you were
00:42:12 smoke coming into your house as you were making a 999 call yes now on the timings of that call was some seven or eight
00:42:23 of that call was some seven or eight minutes after your partner had first woken you up do you remember smoke coming into your home from anywhere else at this time apart from through the front door
00:42:35 we're your windows of the flat where any of them still open the ones that were open from before would have been left open so that's the kitchen window and
00:42:46 open so that's the kitchen window and then the bedroom windows yes now you told us that you had to take your daughter to a living room window to get her air he does did you remember if at that time there were any windows open in
00:42:57 that time there were any windows open in the living room no but I would have left that window open because I knew now that the house would have probably made me feel not with smoke so I remember that window I was quite wide and I left it like that and was that an attempt try
00:43:11 like that and was that an attempt try and clear the smoke yes
00:43:17 [Music] at this time I mean had you seen any signs of smoke or fire outside the building no we go back to your statement
00:43:33 building no we go back to your statement please let's look at page 7 IW s 885 to page 7 we please expand paragraph 25 at the bottom you begin by saying that your
00:43:49 the bottom you begin by saying that your partner in yourself began to make efforts to stop smoke coming into the flat when you describe using blankets up to the frame of the front door and he was filling a kitchen basin with water
00:44:00 was filling a kitchen basin with water and throwing it onto the blankets were those steps successful they were successful by just wanting to thinking like how long am I gonna keep doing this for because once I move so I think there
00:44:14 for because once I move so I think there was something at the top of the the door for it those are the full frames at the top right at the top let me put in blanket at the top then trying to hold a blanket along the bottom whilst trying
00:44:26 blanket along the bottom whilst trying to block the letterbox like the smoke come from the letterbox and that one kept dropping and that one would drop and I know once I'm holding these two once he's smoking again coming from the
00:44:37 once he's smoking again coming from the top and I try and hold the top one so it was just it was it was quite hard and how effective was it in terms of stopping smoke getting in I tried I mean
00:44:48 stopping smoke getting in I tried I mean enough not to let it fly if I wasn't doing that then the smoke would have been just billowing into the flat
00:44:58 mr. chairman I'm coming on to another topic on the night but I wonder whether this would be a convenient time just to have a short break for the witness could be certainly would you like to have a little break now yes please
00:45:09 little break now yes please right but we'll do then ten minutes will that be all right yeah okay well and we'll break now until 10 plus 12 and I
00:45:21 we'll break now until 10 plus 12 and I have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence why there are sterility
00:45:24 sterility if you go with the our sexuality
00:45:35 right ten possibilities
00:56:37 alright okay hurry on thinking yeah good picker this was great thank you sir could we please have I WS h85 to page 8
00:56:48 could we please have I WS h85 to page 8 please and expand paragraphs 27 to 29 he
00:57:00 please and expand paragraphs 27 to 29 he said oh yeah Wally if I could pick it up please at paragraph 27 you say as I was standing at the door I could not hear anything except Shaun walking around the flat I then heard a deep voice from
00:57:12 flat I then heard a deep voice from behind the front door and what sounded like radio feedback I started to bang on the door today whoever was on the other side of the door know that we were there and that there were people in our flat
00:57:23 and that there were people in our flat it was firefighters when you heard the firefighters outside and before you opened the front door what were conditions like in the hallway of your home they were less there wasn't it
00:57:37 home they were less there wasn't it wasn't as smoky as before because I'd been standing there for ages trying to block the smoke so and I think I'd done quite a decent job at stopping the smoke
00:57:48 quite a decent job at stopping the smoke from him coming in and do you remember whether the light's still on in your hallway yes
00:58:04 you say that that in parallel facilitate that you opened the door made a small gap and one firefighter was able to come through that gap into your home were you
00:58:16 through that gap into your home were you able to tell how many firefighters were there at the door no apart from the the deep voice that you mentioned behind the door did you hear any other voices at
00:58:27 door did you hear any other voices at this time and was this one firefighter the only firefighter to come to your home at this time yes how far into the
00:58:39 home at this time yes how far into the flats did he come the firefighter come he came into the home as far as the turn
00:58:50 he came into the home as far as the turn that would lead you to the round or just to way that your bedroom door was as far as the bedroom door just like just behind the door the fun dog
00:59:06 if we look at paragraph 29 and say when the firefighter came in he told me there was a fire lower down the tower and that the fire brigade were dealing putting it
00:59:17 the fire brigade were dealing putting it out
00:59:17 out he saw the wet blanket around the frame of the door and told us to keep doing what you're doing that meant to Shawn and I that we were doing the right thing and that we were in the safest place we could be the firefighter the five Hertz
00:59:31 could be the firefighter the five Hertz game did not tell us explicitly to stay or to leave he did how I tell us that more firefighters would come back I understood this to mean that we were to stay in the flat and just to try and get
00:59:43 stay in the flat and just to try and get a little bit more detail about this conversation where was your partner when this conversation happened he was there as well and you've told us that a few
00:59:55 as well and you've told us that a few moments ago how far the firefighter came into the flat so whereabouts was this conversation taking place just behind the door on the front door like just where they were given a bill away did
01:00:06 where they were given a bill away did the firefighters tell you anything about the extent of the fire lower down the tower no did the fighter fight did the firefighter tell you anything about
01:00:17 firefighter tell you anything about conditions in the communal area on your floor and what about conditions in the stairwell did the firefighter mention anything about the stairwell
01:00:32 do you remember if the firefighter asked how many people were in your flat
01:00:43 and did the firefighter have a mask on throughout yes no not I know he came in with a mask but I don't know if he took it off I'm not
01:00:56 I don't know if he took it off I'm not sure but you remember do you remember now speaking to this firefighter whilst he or she was wearing a mask he had the mask on but I know that when
01:01:08 he had the mask on but I know that when he came in I think when he first came in I remember it sounding quiet like muffled so I don't know he might have taken it off and maybe just a little bit I don't know if they could remove it but I just I think as the conversation went
01:01:21 I just I think as the conversation went on he's placed Corbitt Clara so I don't know if it's though with the masculine or if he's taking off grandma is there anything else about the firefighter that
01:01:32 anything else about the firefighter that sticks in your mind he was quite tall yeah deep voice I know that his fingers were very black like
01:01:44 that his fingers were very black like very a lot of doesn't certain child that circles on his fingers remember where was your daughter once you were having this conversation in our bedroom was the
01:01:58 this conversation in our bedroom was the your bedroom door open or closed do wide open so if someone's standing in the hall just so we can play if someone's standing by the front door can they see into your bedroom directly into the
01:02:09 into your bedroom directly into the bedroom and where was your daughter placed in the bedroom she would probably be in on the bed or maybe wandering around the bedroom and if you're standing by the front door and looking in through the open door of your bedroom can you see the bed yes did the
01:02:26 can you see the bed yes did the firefighters specifically ask if you had a child in the flat remember
01:02:38 the firefighters are then left and if we look at the next paragraph in your statement on this page we just look at beginnings of paragraph 30 which is at bottom of the page one of the things you
01:02:53 bottom of the page one of the things you mentioned here and we'll come back to it is it your partner began making him had begun to make a makeshift rope is that right yes I'll ask you questions about that in due course but can I just pick
01:03:04 that in due course but can I just pick up something that you say in this paragraph is that you then you describe receiving a call from hind' the daughter of your friend Aziza who lived in as
01:03:17 of your friend Aziza who lived in as you've told us in flat 1 to 6 and you asked about Aziza and hidden told you that as either was out of the tower
01:03:30 that as either was out of the tower did he hint tell you where she was herself no but I just presumed that she was outside around where this hell was with her ma'am did she tell you if she'd been
01:03:47 ma'am did she tell you if she'd been inside the tower when the fire started no sorry I'm just to clarify that no sorry no she didn't know she didn't tell me where she'd been we didn't speak about that ok could we look please on
01:04:01 about that ok could we look please on the next page page 8 and let's look at paragraph 31 down to 34 please
01:04:10 he's not sorry page 9 pogchamp
01:04:20 if we focus on page paragraph 31 please
01:04:27 what you explain and this is in the second sentence that you lost track of time during the evening of the fire so it's tough to estimate what time this was all happening what I think may have
01:04:40 was all happening what I think may have been around 2:00 a.m. I heard another noise outside the door similar to when the firefighters had come to the door before and what you explained was at
01:04:52 before and what you explained was at this time two firefighters came to your door can you say with any confidence how much time had passed between the first
01:05:03 much time had passed between the first firefighter leaving your flat and now two more appearing at the front door did it feel
01:05:14 appearing at the front door did it feel like seconds or minutes quite a while after
01:05:22 before we get to the conversation that you had with these two firefighters can you tell us what conditions were liking your flat by this time there was no
01:05:38 your flat by this time there was no smoke inside the flat at this time once I got that firefighter once the firefighter had left obviously when he came in there was smoke that came into the flat well that's why I just watched a little bit once he'd left
01:05:49 just watched a little bit once he'd left when he exited a little bit of smoke would have coming again but then I just carried on doing and what I was doing before trying to block the smoke out so there would have been no smoke in the
01:06:01 there would have been no smoke in the flat and at this time you put lights in your flat was still working yeah and obviously we've been you've been focused on the front door but can we just be
01:06:12 on the front door but can we just be sure there was no smoke coming in through any other windows in the flat
01:06:22 what you say it needs paragraph 31 is that there were two firefighters they both came into the flat and stood in the corridor again so we can we can go back
01:06:33 corridor again so we can we can go back to your plan if you want to the plan if you want to look at it but can you remember how far they came into the flat
01:06:41 they didn't really they're just so just where the other guy came they didn't come really deep into the flat and look around or anything like that so by reference to the front door where were
01:06:53 reference to the front door where were they standing in that in the first little space in the hallway and so from that little space in the hallway what would they have a view of the bedroom and that's your bedroom my bedroom
01:07:06 and that's your bedroom my bedroom can you remember if they were wearing masks or not yeah they did either firefighter take the mask off the one
01:07:19 firefighter take the mask off the one thing that you mentioned in your statement about the firefighter who'd come earlier was that he had a very deep voice did either these two firefighters sound like the one that had come
01:07:30 sound like the one that had come previously I can't so you now have two firefighters come to your flat and they've come inside the flat did they
01:07:41 they've come inside the flat did they ask how many people were still in the flat and where was your daughter at this time she would have still been in that
01:07:52 time she would have still been in that in their bedroom because we tried to keep her where we could see her instead of having her sort of moving around the track and with it when they came into the corridor just so we can be clear
01:08:03 the corridor just so we can be clear where were you and your partner where it were where the fire fighters were now if
01:08:15 were where the fire fighters were now if we look at paragraph 31 you say they told Sean and I that our flat was the safest flat on the floor because the other half of the building was on fire did they say anything more specific
01:08:28 did they say anything more specific about the flats on your floor no did they mention any flats by number at all
01:08:42 you continued as a result they wanted to bring some of our neighbors into our flat where they would be safer and you say that you you agreed to that the
01:08:54 say that you you agreed to that the firefighters left to get our neighbors
01:08:58 and then what happened was that if we look at paragraphs 32 to 34 you described there you identify your neighbors as they were bought into your
01:09:10 neighbors as they were bought into your property did the firefighters tell you what would happen to you and your neighbors once everyone was gathered in your flat when you opened the door to
01:09:27 your flat when you opened the door to these firefighters did you get any sense of what the conditions were like in the communal area very smooth probably worse than the first time when we went we tried to escape I couldn't see anything
01:09:38 tried to escape I couldn't see anything I could see a person like an image walk in from nowhere that make sense so when was it like the shape of a
01:09:49 so when was it like the shape of a person you could make out then they'd come into the flower whether it was like then I could see who it was and was that one of the firefighters I don't recall the firefighters come in
01:10:00 I don't recall the firefighters come in first
01:10:02 first I follow I think I think it was the way I phrased my question so so when the door opened you you could see smoke in the communal area yeah and then a shape
01:10:14 the communal area yeah and then a shape would come out from the smoke yeah did you have a can you tell us anything about whether there was any lighting in the communal area it's definitely wasn't
01:10:28 I want to ask you some questions about your neighbors in a moment but to summarize what you say in your statement is that they came into your flat in the following order so first omar and
01:10:40 following order so first omar and mohammed al hajj ali then sign above beam and her son and finally Dennis Murphy just so that we can be clear about the sequence did
01:10:51 we can be clear about the sequence did they come in as one group or in batches
01:10:58 so I didn't quite catch up they came in as a group so once again could you say yes and when they came into your flat
01:11:11 yes and when they came into your flat were you aware of any firefighters with them there would have been someone who uttered their men there definitely was a firefighter why should their men yes oh I don't think they were the person was
01:11:23 I don't think they were the person was behind was in front of them that a person came at the end and did you have a clear view of that person at all the firefighter yes yes and that person was
01:11:37 firefighter yes yes and that person was in the communal area was in my home right so just so that we can be clear a firefighter came into your hallway and then ushered your neighbors into your flat is that right here are you able to
01:11:52 flat is that right here are you able to tell whether that was one of the two firefighters that had come earlier to us can you give us any description about that firefighter no was that someone who's wearing a mask their own mask and
01:12:05 who's wearing a mask their own mask and just wearing fire men's clothes
01:12:11 we look please at page 10 of your statement and just look at paragraph 35
01:12:22 in this paragraph you're you're speaking about the brothers Omar and Mohammed Al hajjali can you just describe to us what
01:12:33 hajjali can you just describe to us what condition that they were in when they arrived in or flat they were I mean they
01:12:49 arrived in or flat they were I mean they just walked in that course going on like you know you just look at someone that's local
01:12:57 that well what's going on sort of thing and then they just walked in really they'd seemed quite panicky not frantic but it was kind of like you know not
01:13:09 but it was kind of like you know not well like what's happening because I don't know what they'd seen in their flat well that's that's the impression that I got when they were all doing did they either of them tell you anything about conditions in their flat
01:13:21 anything about conditions in their flat no where did they go in your flat I'm not sure we're not sure when Mohamed when that straightaway but when everyone
01:13:35 when that straightaway but when everyone walked in everyone sort of just dispersed around the flat and then I know that OMA went to the kitchen and he told me to follow him you went into the kitchen I don't know what he was doing that and then he came and got
01:13:47 was doing that and then he came and got called me to follow him to show me you want to show me something in the kitchen and what was it that he wanted to show you he wanted to show me he looks out of the window and said that there was smoke people see smoke coming from the back of
01:14:02 people see smoke coming from the back of the building and were you able to see smoke as well yes and can you describe that smoke at all it's very thick very dense quite
01:14:14 all it's very thick very dense quite thick smoke like a lot of it look going upwards was it below or above you in the same and if you're looking out of the
01:14:25 same and if you're looking out of the kitchen window was it to your left or to your right so I write but like it was look around the back of the building around the corner yes
01:14:40 what about Zener burn her son can you remember where they went in your flat
01:14:47 and what condition were was designed up and her son when when they came into your flat what condition were they in I
01:14:55 was quite frantic
01:15:07 - clapping take
01:15:12 do you remember having to put her son anywhere in particular or I carried her son and I put him on my bed was that where your daughter was yeah would you
01:15:23 where your daughter was yeah would you like a break
01:15:30 if we could look please at the next paragraph on the same page
01:15:40 what you say in that paragraph was that signup was on the phone a lot that evening can you remember who she was calling no I don't remember asking her
01:15:52 calling no I don't remember asking her who she's talking to you what I remember what she said
01:16:05 the another neighbor that was also bought into a project it was it was Dennis Murphy can you tell us what condition
01:16:14 condition mr. Murphy was in when he arrived in your flat
01:16:23 I didn't recognize him and it recognized that he's gonna walk them
01:16:35 did he was he able to speak to you you didn't speak was he able to move without assistance yes do you remember if he had
01:16:48 assistance yes do you remember if he had his mobile with him kierra phone and do you remember if he received any calls at all while Stephen in your flat not one who's alive right now
01:17:04 and you've told us that everyone then dispersed around the flat can you remember where and Dennis Murphy went when he arrived in your Dennis was in
01:17:16 when he arrived in your Dennis was in the front room living room yeah what's happened is that we've now had two firefighters come to your door make a
01:17:28 firefighters come to your door make a request they then come back Nate your neighbors have then come into your flat
01:17:35 by now you've already told us that that how the conditions in your flat had improved but by now you've now got eight people in the flat what were conditions
01:17:47 people in the flat what were conditions like in your flat collisions were fine there was no smoke in the flat
01:18:03 we look at page 11 iws age 5 to page 11 links and we expand paragraphs
01:18:18 links and we expand paragraphs 41 and 42 please
01:18:31 what you said is this is a occasion when firefighters come back you say I didn't answer the door on that occasion I think it was either
01:18:42 it was either Omar Shawn that answered the door two firefighters came to flap whilst I was in the bedroom we sign up children so do
01:18:56 in the bedroom we sign up children so do you have a clear memory of with this your bedroom that you were in and was the bedroom door open yes and do you have a clear memory of
01:19:08 yes and do you have a clear memory of being in there with zona Mohammed and the two children at that time yes
01:19:22 and you say that it was either Omar or Sean that answered the door but can you remember where they were so it was all
01:19:34 remember where they were so it was all you said it must have been one of them that answered the door you're not doing could be one of them and where was Dennis at the time what'd you say in
01:19:50 Dennis at the time what'd you say in this paragraph paragraph 41 is it two firefighters came into the room can you say and please tell me if you can't but
01:20:02 say and please tell me if you can't but how much time had passed between the arrival of your neighbors into your flat and these firefighters then coming back into your property I don't think it was that long not long at all not as long as
01:20:14 that long not long at all not as long as there were times is it at a time you can measure in seconds or minutes minutes
01:20:27 I was holding less than five minutes or more than five minutes or
01:20:38 you mentioned to firefighters just so that we can be clear what were these is that your recollection these were the same two firefighters that have come to
01:20:50 same two firefighters that have come to your flat earlier I'm sure it's just two people dressed as phi phi do remember them having Mars so from where you were
01:21:06 them having Mars so from where you were in the bedroom you would have a view of of these two firefighters is that right yes and again how far into the flat did
01:21:19 yes and again how far into the flat did these firefighters come I know that I took one of them to the kitchen look what to show him the smoke look
01:21:31 look what to show him the smoke look just make the that's how I told me about the smoke in the kitchen so it's one of them can you follow me and I want to show to show him something and I took him to the to the window and I said look this smoke coming from the back and he
01:21:43 this smoke coming from the back and he just said okay coming but it might say something to some other stuff but I just might even say there's knowledge in what I'd said okay well let's break that down a little please what you say is that I
01:21:57 a little please what you say is that I heard all going to that room I just could see just outside of the door that the firefighter was pointing in the bedroom we were in and before that happened it was did you take the
01:22:09 happened it was did you take the firefighters the kitchen before or after he told you to go into the bedroom and
01:22:20 did you take the fur when you will took the firefighter to the kitchen was the lounge door open at all do you remember so you tell us that you
01:22:34 do you remember so you tell us that you took the firefighter into the kitchen and showed him the smoke that you'd seen earlier did he give you any advice in relation to what to do into the bedroom
01:22:47 relation to what to do into the bedroom and so what if we go back to parallel four to one and look at the what he were told they told us to all stay in the
01:23:00 told they told us to all stay in the room and to put something under the door to stop smoke getting in they said they were going to come back
01:23:18 so you then say is that the firefighters then left and we look at paragraph 42 please when they left I immediately
01:23:29 please when they left I immediately thought about Dennis I went to the living room where he'd remained since I'd cleaned his face and I told him - he needed to come into the bedroom with the rest of us I walked with him arm in arm as he was hunched over into the bedroom
01:23:41 as he was hunched over into the bedroom he was very hesitant to come into the bedroom at first hovering by the door and reluctant to come in when he eventually came in off some encouragement from Shaun and I he did come in but he stood awkwardly just
01:23:53 come in but he stood awkwardly just inside the door I implored him to sit on the bed with the rest of us and when he did he sat on the very edge of the bed so you've described moving Dennis into
01:24:13 so you've described moving Dennis into the bedroom by then who was in the bedroom once the firefighters had left
01:24:26 bedroom once the firefighters had left that's all out of you
01:24:34 can I look now please at lfb five zeros 359 page one please
01:24:53 [Music] and this is the transcript of a second call that has been linked to you miss Loyola if we look expand again the event
01:25:04 Loyola if we look expand again the event part of it again you see the reference at the top and the penultimate set of digits is Oh two three one four nine so
01:25:15 digits is Oh two three one four nine so that tells us that time on the transcript is 231 and forty nine if we go to page two please
01:25:37 if we expand the bottom part from the operator saying I know what floor what floor are you on so the operator asked what floor are you on gets a response
01:25:48 what floor are you on gets a response 14th floor and operator says you're on the 14th floor ok are you and the caller
01:26:00 the 14th floor ok are you and the caller then says there's another fire on the top there's not now a fire on the top operator asks what at the top of the building on the top of your flat and the caller says the top the top of my flat
01:26:11 caller says the top the top of my flat top of my flat do you have a recollection of this conversation
01:26:24 slightly do you remember being aware of a fire at the top of your flat yes and when you were referring to the top of
01:26:36 when you were referring to the top of the flat
01:26:37 the flat what were you meaning I was talking about the top of the window
01:26:49 so I didn't quite catch me window in our bedroom when I looked at the window I could see fire that's the first time ice I personally saw any fire and I could
01:27:00 I personally saw any fire and I could see the fire at the top of the window so probably coming from the flat above that it was coming down towards my window
01:27:11 it was coming down towards my window could you see flames yeah and how close were those flames through your bedroom window
01:27:25 like if I start on the window so I could probably reach out and touch her
01:27:36 once just take you to page 3 of this transcript again if we could just expand
01:27:49 transcript again if we could just expand the bottom half from where the operator says hello what has it come through to your flat so that's what the operator
01:28:01 your flat so that's what the operator asks and gets the response it's coming into our flat yeah does that help you at all to tell us what was coming into your flat at this time I thought like the fire was coming
01:28:14 time I thought like the fire was coming in to our flat because it was the closed it was like it was just about to come in to our window that's how I thought that's what I could see if there wasn't actually was there actually anything coming into the flat at that not no the
01:28:30 coming into the flat at that not no the operators then asks ok are you able you aren't able to get out at all and the caller then says no they told us to stay inside there's an inaudible but now we can see fire at the top operator says
01:28:43 can see fire at the top operator says yeah are you able to get in your flat away from where the fire in the other flats is the side of your flat away from corner responds no we can't because it's just going to come into our flat that's what that's what's going to happen go to
01:28:56 what that's what's going to happen go to the next page your presser says well it's and then the caller is some inaudible where the caller says jump out of the window over speaking jump out of
01:29:07 of the window over speaking jump out of the window the operator then says I mean if you can if you can leave then try and do that but so and the caller asks shall we jump out of the window and the operator then says otherwise
01:29:19 and the operator then says otherwise just block up the exits and open any or open any windows that isn't the side where the smoke is and then it appears that the because even the bottom of the
01:29:30 that the because even the bottom of the call clears the reference to jumping out of a window is that something that you remember yeah but it wasn't in that
01:29:41 remember yeah but it wasn't in that context well let's see if we can help you with that and go to page 11 of your statement forty-four please
01:30:16 what you say at the bottom was it became apparent to us that the firefighters were less likely than ever to come back and save us it was then that Shaun told me he was going to try and use the rope to scale down the building can you just
01:30:28 to scale down the building can you just tell us how your partner had fashioned this rope
01:30:31 this rope what did he use to put it together and while I was putting the blanket putting the cloth around the drawer trying to stop the smoke from coming in Sean had
01:30:44 stop the smoke from coming in Sean had just opened up our errand carpet and all the blankets or bedding that you could see I remember it just watching him tying bedsheets together and then he
01:30:58 tying bedsheets together and then he wrapped it around when Omar and his brother came in we were all in the bedroom they had broken off the one of the windows that taking the window off
01:31:10 the windows that taking the window off its hinges so there was a big cut and then Sean had tied the rope around the middle of the window that holds the two window does that make sense yeah and
01:31:23 window does that make sense yeah and then he deferred it down can I pause that I have some more questions about that topic but mr. champ could I just ask for a short break at this point
01:31:35 ask for a short break at this point please yes all right well it might be a good idea to have a short break now is it right yes and if you go to the Usher she'll look after you and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence right
01:31:48 talk to anyone about your evidence right back at 12 o clock please thank you
01:31:58 right two o'clock Jews
01:34:37 you
01:45:36 Mourad you have to carry on yeah if you do if you would like a break at any stage don't hesitate to say sir thank you miss gem miss oh yeah Willie before
01:45:55 you miss gem miss oh yeah Willie before we had the break you were beginning to tell us about the Rope that your partner had fashioned and was using and I think
01:46:07 had fashioned and was using and I think the stage we've got to was that you'd explained that it had been tied to the frame of the bedroom window and Omar Mohamed had helped break open part of
01:46:19 Mohamed had helped break open part of the window is that right yeah you've dealt with this in detail in your statements and so no disrespect to you
01:46:30 statements and so no disrespect to you I'd like if I may just to try and take him shortly and just so that we can get the key events down once that rope had
01:46:45 the key events down once that rope had been tied and the window opened up us in the fashion that you described is it right your partner then moved to sit on the windowsill yes and at that time
01:47:01 the windowsill yes and at that time where was everyone who was in the flat were they all in the same room and we can go back to the plan if it will help but was that's your bedroom my bedroom
01:47:17 the when I showed you the transcript of the second 999 call you gave evidence
01:47:30 the second 999 call you gave evidence about seeing flames above you above the bedroom window and nearby the stage we're out now is that your partner is sat on the windowsill and can you
01:47:41 sat on the windowsill and can you remember whether there were any flames around at that time so he was sad at the window saw earlier on before I had looked at the window I don't know how long before while he was quite a while
01:47:52 long before while he was quite a while before I'd looked at the window and seen the flames at the top so just so that we can be clear about the sequence timewise the events that we're talking about now
01:48:04 the events that we're talking about now which is your partner sitting on the windowsill happened before that second call yes we just take a look at paragraph 50 of your statement it's at
01:48:16 paragraph 50 of your statement it's at page 13 please if we could expand paragraph 50
01:48:26 so I think you've just told us that this time everyone's in the bedroom and what you say in this paragraph was that saying I kept getting up and opening the bedroom door she did that three or four
01:48:37 bedroom door she did that three or four times she thought that she could hear people that had come back to help us there was a lot of smoke in the flat outside the barracks room door at this time I was shouting at her she was opening the door and I was saying don't
01:48:48 opening the door and I was saying don't open the door don't open the door she was letting smoke coming to the room where we were in we put a cloth under the door whatever was to hand there was nobody there every time she opened the door and you described saying it was
01:49:02 door and you described saying it was very scared and that you had to get forceful with her the bedroom that you could see in the flat outside the bedroom door sorry I'm put that again
01:49:13 bedroom door sorry I'm put that again that the smoke that you could see outside the bedroom door can you describe that smoke it wasn't that really smoky like how it was in the
01:49:24 really smoky like how it was in the communal area but it there was smoke because no woman that was standing by the door and clean anything to block the smoke from coming into the door so you know wisps of smoke was coming into the
01:49:35 know wisps of smoke was coming into the corridor and the door that you're referring to there is the front door so when zeyneb opened the door were you able to get a view of the front door what are we looking at here no but was
01:49:48 what are we looking at here no but was that where you thought the smoke was coming in from by this time had you
01:50:00 coming in from by this time had you closed any of the windows in the living room or the kitchen do you remember no so where there's still some windows open in the flat can you remember where those open windows might have been this ain't
01:50:12 open windows might have been this ain't the kitchen window as from before and the one in the front room that I opened that would have been it and then the ones that one in the bedroom obviously
01:50:24 were there lights on in your your hallway at that time yes and what about the lights in the
01:50:35 yes and what about the lights in the bedroom yes
01:50:45 if we look now just expand please at paragraphs 51 and 52 please I won't read them out but just to summarize them for
01:50:58 them out but just to summarize them for you
01:50:58 you what you explained in this these two paragraphs is that after 15 minutes after your partner had first sat on the windowsill he made his first attempt to
01:51:10 windowsill he made his first attempt to lower himself down and you say he told us all that he was going to go out of the window again when he said this and
01:51:21 the window again when he said this and made this attempt what what did what what was the reaction of everyone else in the bedroom to be fair was only I'd
01:51:37 in the bedroom to be fair was only I'd say Omar Mohamed and myself that probably would have commented and I just kept saying that Shawn down that we're not going because I was had no absolutely no intention of going through
01:51:49 absolutely no intention of going through the window like no intention so although he wasn't trying he wasn't like saying I'm going to differently go now he was just trying to see how hard how much
01:52:02 just trying to see how hard how much he's weight could take the room the makeshift rope that's why he lowered his self up but they don't even know Maura Mohammed wake up now you know don't do what are you doing look what was he doing what was Dennis doing at his time
01:52:19 was on the bed
01:52:22 we just sitting on the bed and what about Xena what'd you say in paragraph
01:52:39 about Xena what'd you say in paragraph 52 is that your partner then asked you to pass your daughter to him and she was
01:52:50 to pass your daughter to him and she was unwilling to to be passed to her father is that right did you see how far down the rope went we did you get a view yourself of how far down the building
01:53:02 yourself of how far down the building the Rope went did you get a sense that it was relatively close to the ground
01:53:16 you tell us if we look at paragraph 53
01:53:27 if we pick it up at the bottom of the page please we'll need to go over but that Shawn see what your daughter wouldn't wouldn't let you go your
01:53:43 wouldn't wouldn't let you go your partner had to come back into the flat can he says how he got back into the flat at this time if we look at
01:53:56 flat at this time if we look at paragraph 54 on the next page
01:54:07 what and if we take actually take 54 and 55 together
01:54:19 what you explained it in these paragraphs is that you decided that to tie your daughter to your partner's back
01:54:30 tie your daughter to your partner's back and you got a wrapper a cloth which you found in the bedroom so that you could tie her as tightly to her father's back as you could and that was you say if we
01:54:42 as you could and that was you say if we look at parallel 55 with the intention going out of the window as soon as possible I discussed it was Shawn so so you told us a few moment intention of going back out of the window what had
01:54:55 going back out of the window what had changed by now
01:55:04 I would say it was a mixture of wanting to prepare ourselves and time was just
01:55:15 to prepare ourselves and time was just going like he just felt like we had gone to the window we had screamed and shouted there were firemen downstairs they were not even looking up at us there were loads of them downstairs well you could hear from
01:55:28 them downstairs well you could hear from that side of the building was us shouting and no one was looking up so in my head I started I just lost hope at that point I just fought they said
01:55:40 that point I just fought they said they're gonna come back but no one's even acknowledging the fact that we're shouting from a window even saying it's two children in the house you know we need to get out there's eight of us in
01:55:51 need to get out there's eight of us in there I think that we've a mixture of the time that had that we'd been locked in that room made me start thinking I need to start taking other steps just so
01:56:09 need to start taking other steps just so that we can be clear which window we had you been shouting from and who was shouting from that window myself but I
01:56:28 shouting from that window myself but I know for a fact them Sheldon I was shouting out the window
01:56:39 we look please at our graph 56 down to 58
01:56:53 now
01:56:58 you've just explained why you changed your mind
01:57:04 your mind did you or Shawn tell anyone else in the in the bedroom what you were planning to do sure will save it to everyone that was there who just who was just saying you know if we have to go sort of
01:57:18 you know if we have to go sort of showing me how I would like motion you may get my hand movements ready to go down the road if he kept on saying because I have to say no I'm not going down that way even once because I was
01:57:30 down that way even once because I was back I you know saying I don't want we're not going that way but he just kept on saying if we have to if we have
01:57:42 kept on saying if we have to if we have to but he said it like so everybody in the room could her he wasn't almost bring it to me or do things like that
01:57:53 if we just look at paragraph 57 what you say there as I said Shawn let's go we were going out of the window now at that time when you'd made that decision who
01:58:05 time when you'd made that decision who else was in the bedroom everyone and do you remember anyone leaving the bedroom at about this time no do you remember
01:58:16 at about this time no do you remember the bedroom door opening at all other than when zineb was opening it and we
01:58:28 than when zineb was opening it and we just it possible to put the two parts of paragraph 58 side by side please that's thank you very much what you say and
01:58:40 thank you very much what you say and we'll take it in stages or form a is
01:58:49 before I take your power off here can I go back to paragraph 56 I just wanted something to pick up on 1.56 please on
01:59:03 something to pick up on 1.56 please on page 14 what you've said mr. Boyer will a in this step part of the paragraph is
01:59:16 a in this step part of the paragraph is I went to the window to see where I was going to have to go when I looked out of the window I saw a flash of flame above us it was bright orange in color and very close I felt as I could almost
01:59:27 very close I felt as I could almost reach out and touch it I said Shawn this place is going to explode we had to get out we're going to get out of the window and try to descend the building which ones homemade rope when you refer to a flash of flame can
01:59:39 when you refer to a flash of flame can you tell us any more information about that please that's the first time I'd seen fire I knew that there was fire in the building I had seen smoke before
01:59:50 the building I had seen smoke before that I'd seen smoke in the corridor I've seen it outside the kitchen window I'd never physically seen any fire and
02:00:04 it was just like in the movie almost like something I just didn't expect to see I just saw this wolf of flame like a
02:00:15 see I just saw this wolf of flame like a massive flames coming towards me because I was looking at it and this was from the bedroom window I don't know what made me look up I was
02:00:26 I don't know what made me look up I was looking down to see how far I'd have to go and so he just said look up and that's when I saw and by that time was the bedroom window open yeah it was open
02:00:39 the bedroom window open yeah it was open from when they'd broken open and I had Shawn been pulled back in after sitting on the way of trying to lower himself down yes that will happen before and I
02:00:50 down yes that will happen before and I saw the flame after I showed you that transcript of the 999 call a while ago can you link this paragraph to that 999 call at all as
02:01:05 paragraph to that 999 call at all as soon as I'd seen that that flame I called them could you remember at the time but then that make sense so anyway we look to that we can look at
02:01:16 so anyway we look to that we can look at the transcript again but where you were referring to fire at the top of my flash do you think that's a reference to what you say in this paragraph yes let's go back then please to paragraph 58 page 14
02:01:31 back then please to paragraph 58 page 14 thank you begin the paragraphs just as we were preparing to climb out of the window the bedroom door flew open
02:01:42 window the bedroom door flew open everyone looked up shocked that anyone had come back two firefighters ran into the room followed by a cloud of thick black smoke before the bedroom door flew
02:01:54 black smoke before the bedroom door flew open did you hear any noises outside the bedroom door and you say everyone looked up shocked that anyone had come back who
02:02:07 up shocked that anyone had come back who do you mean by everyone in the room and were the lights on in the bedroom at that time yes you say the firefighters
02:02:20 that time yes you say the firefighters ran into the room is that the bedroom
02:02:26 can you tell us what the firefighter what your recollection is of what the firefighters dead please a collection is that the door flew open I don't know who through the door and I just saw a
02:02:42 through the door and I just saw a firefighter standing by the front door and I just heard him shouting so I don't I don't recall a fly fighters coming into the bedroom or such unless
02:02:54 into the bedroom or such unless and I don't that's not why it's just so that we can prepare well it shouldn't say in parallel 58 two firefighters
02:03:05 say in parallel 58 two firefighters rounded to the run your recollection is of the the door the bedroom door opening and you're seeing a firefighter by the front door as though right will you refer that to two firefighters just so
02:03:17 refer that to two firefighters just so that we can be clear how many firefighters do you remember seeing
02:03:28 the
02:03:34 five items that was by the front door can you say whether the front door was open or closed our front doors are the type of front doors that you cannot lock
02:03:45 type of front doors that you cannot lock yourself out with so if I close the door I'm going to go for a rubbish away I can let myself back inside my front door without using the key and I'm hundred
02:03:56 without using the key and I'm hundred percent sure of that because I remember a real occasion being inside my flat coming home from work one day being inside the flat and someone another neighbor accidentally coming to my block
02:04:08 neighbor accidentally coming to my block coming into my house thinking that was his house and the door was open and that's how he was able to edit out because he doesn't lock from the outside so the door was definitely open can you
02:04:22 so the door was definitely open can you say how the firefighters have got in through your front door then I believe that they opened the door themselves because I don't recall seeing anyone run out of the bedroom to go and open the
02:04:34 out of the bedroom to go and open the front door being that it was my flat I think I would be the one to go and do that if I'd heard that before you the
02:04:45 that if I'd heard that before you the bedroom door open you haven't heard any noise at all is that right had you heard any voices outside the bedroom door no had you heard any knocking at all
02:04:59 and so the bedroom door opening and there's a firefighter can you describe that firefighter at all was it a tall
02:05:13 that firefighter at all was it a tall person or a short person could you tell whether can you remember whether that person was wearing a mask or not and you
02:05:29 person was wearing a mask or not and you say that everyone was in the bedroom can you give us a clearer idea of where everyone was in the bedroom at this time okay so you have in my bedroom and you have the bed in the middle of the
02:05:40 have the bed in the middle of the bedroom so you have space on both sides so you have Zeinab that was sat by the door on the floor Jeremiah Jeremiah and
02:05:53 door on the floor Jeremiah Jeremiah and my daughter were set on the bed and if I remember Omar and Mohammad was set on the other side of the bed and Dennis was
02:06:04 the other side of the bed and Dennis was set on this side of the bed so Dennis was so almost facing the door the front door myself shown and my daughter was standing up we would definitely not say
02:06:15 standing up we would definitely not say down
02:06:17 down so if one's looking into the room were you you're you Shawn and your daughter on the right side of the bed or the left side of the bed and you say that zeyneb
02:06:33 side of the bed and you say that zeyneb was on you remember the same Sun was on the bed is that right so of Dennis Omar Mohamed who was closest to the door
02:06:54 you say there was a cloud of thick black smoke do you still remember thick black smoke yeah I remember smoke not enough not to see he was in the corridor why I
02:07:06 not to see he was in the corridor why I definitely remember there being smoke coming into the cloud or because the door had been opened now that wide open and where was that smoke coming into your home from from the communal area
02:07:20 your home from from the communal area aside from the could you see anything beyond the firefighter that was now by the front door no could you hear any other voices behind that firefighter yes
02:07:31 other voices behind that firefighter yes believe there were people have recorded the murder we know around if we look at that paragraph 58 and the sentence that
02:07:43 that paragraph 58 and the sentence that firefighters seemed more panic and worried than they were before in light of what you just told us about seeing just one firefighter is that a sentence
02:07:54 just one firefighter is that a sentence that needs changing at all the firefighter see you open it and you don't say they said something like let's
02:08:05 don't say they said something like let's go
02:08:05 go time to go run
02:08:18 so again is that do you now have a recollection that it was one person that said something like let's go time to go or run yes can you remember anything
02:08:30 or run yes can you remember anything about the voice that that person had just remember it's thunder it was quite
02:08:38 heightened it was quite panicky and it was almost like come now if you don't come then you know that it was very it
02:08:51 come then you know that it was very it was very panicky and you say well can you could you tell from the voice whether it was a male firefighter or a female firefighter the firefighter said
02:09:05 female firefighter the firefighter said something like let's go time to go or run thinking about it today do you have a clearer recollection of what exactly a
02:09:17 a clearer recollection of what exactly a firefighter said to you no I just heard something but a new day was something that meant just you need to get out now and were the words that we use was it very very brief what the firefighter
02:09:28 very very brief what the firefighter said that's short yeah did the firefighter say is say anything else
02:09:41 firefighter say is say anything else that you remember no do you remember the firefighter asking any questions at all
02:09:56 please from where you were sat in the bedroom looking out could you did you have any sense of the conditions in the communal hallway at this time no I didn't have any senses I just in my mind
02:10:10 didn't have any senses I just in my mind I just presumed if they were now telling us to go through the communal area that the smokes must have been on they would have cleared as hard that's what I presumed they are you know must be clear
02:10:22 presumed they are you know must be clear now not completely gone but clear enough for us to go out that way clearer than it would have been from when we'd seen it the first two times well every time that if I men have come
02:10:34 well every time that if I men have come to the door and open the door
02:10:37 well you aware of the lights in the communal area um I'm going to go on and
02:10:48 communal area um I'm going to go on and then show you part of your statement Wayne you tell us what happened next to you and your family but did you ask the firefighter anything no do you remember hearing anybody else in the room ask the
02:11:00 hearing anybody else in the room ask the firefighter anything you remember anyone in the room having any kind of conversation with that firefighter no let's go to paragraphs 59 on page 15
02:11:13 let's go to paragraphs 59 on page 15 please and just expand down from 59 to 62
02:11:24 if we pick it up please 59 that's the first sentence you say as soon as I heard that and that's the what the new 13 in paragraph 58 your recollection what the five I said
02:11:35 recollection what the five I said everyone else in the room blanked out into obscurity described then turning to Shawn grabbing his left hand with your right hand and we ran and you say that
02:11:47 right hand and we ran and you say that in 61 that you ran out of your home for the last time and then the rush to leave you'd not put shoes on you ran out flat barefoot in your dressing gown if we
02:11:58 barefoot in your dressing gown if we pick it up at 62 as soon as we left I was hit with a wall of acrid black smoke so much worse than we thought its thicker and it felt more invasive so you
02:12:12 thicker and it felt more invasive so you your daughter's strapped to her father's back you're holding hands with your partner and what was it can you just take us through what what you then did when you started running out of your
02:12:23 when you started running out of your flat I just ran from the bedroom to the corridor no ran past the fire officer the fire past the fireman and I remember
02:12:41 there was smoke sort of coming in from the door was open wide so there was no no smoke coming in to the to the hallway and I just thought you might it was
02:12:55 and I just thought you might it was everything happened so quick that the first indicates in my head was just take a deep breath I don't know how long I thought I'd be able to hold the breath I just thought just take a deep breath
02:13:06 just thought just take a deep breath before you go out so that you don't have to inhale that much smoke but then the reason why I said the smoke was worse than before is because as soon as I took that deep breath I took it just before I'd stepped out but there was no point
02:13:19 I'd stepped out but there was no point in taking that deep breath because the smoke just went through my body so I knew then that it was way worse than the first time or the second time other times when the door had been open
02:13:31 other times when the door had been open and I run past the fireman holding Sean in my my arm and then I just made it into the communal area the fireman that
02:13:44 into the communal area the fireman that you ran past us so that we can be clear is that the fireman that you'd seen by the front door
02:13:52 I know that I'd run past him yes I can remember I think there may have been someone else outside the front door but remember once you were in the communal area could you see anything at all
02:14:05 area could you see anything at all nothing and was it just so how did you make your way to the stairwell well sir I was in front of Sheldon and I was
02:14:16 I was in front of Sheldon and I was holding him and we were holding each other's learning and I had a hands-free so I started I ran out and then they'd recently built this thing into the
02:14:28 recently built this thing into the corridors like in the Covino area which was a Katie comments out at you but I think I forgot that was there so I just immediately just sort of ran towards here and I started feeling thinking that
02:14:40 here and I started feeling thinking that was the wall in my head that was the wall and I knew and know where the fire exit is because I know I've been into the stairs the countless occasions but just because you couldn't see anything
02:14:52 just because you couldn't see anything as I was feeling I realized that I was going towards the chute and then I then had to film my way back towards the communal I mean so it was a fire except
02:15:05 communal I mean so it was a fire except that when I got to the fire exit I was still feeling around and my hand just touched like a body which I presume now obviously to be the fire one at the
02:15:16 obviously to be the fire one at the fireman and the when I touched him I just sort of felt a grape in space so I just presumed that was the door and I just went through the door
02:15:29 the door was the door the stairwell door was opened by that time you don't recall having to push it open you take believe he was holding an open
02:15:41 we then go to on the same page please to paragraph 64
02:15:59 this is now where you you're now in the stairwell and so yourself and your your partner and your daughter are now in the stairwell and you've come through that
02:16:12 stairwell and you've come through that smoke had that smoke had any physical effect on you yeah I was choking I couldn't breathe it was disorientated I
02:16:23 couldn't breathe it was disorientated I couldn't see slick I was just we were just right we were like just run him for our lives basically but with no no
02:16:34 our lives basically but with no no certainty of where we were food we weren't even gonna make it out but it was yeah it was very very very black very it was just choking and you
02:16:47 very it was just choking and you described in paragraph 64 that the stairwell like the corridor and when you're referring the corridor are you referring to the communal hallway was absolutely sweltering it's like walking
02:16:58 absolutely sweltering it's like walking into a furnace relentless and then stop or he unstoppable heat pounding at my face and my skint coupled with that was the smoke all consuming and stale smelling smoke so just so that we can be
02:17:11 smelling smoke so just so that we can be clear it was there smoke in the stairwell as well yes and can you describe what what smoke you encountered in the stairwell it was the same smoke that heard that was in a communal area
02:17:24 that heard that was in a communal area exactly the same was late was hot it was it was
02:17:31 it was it was just really really hard I don't think when I were in the communal area I felt I felt heat but I think my mind was probably was more focused on trying to escape that I don't think that's what
02:17:42 escape that I don't think that's what the heat to get you to consideration and when we came out through the fire exit I just remember feeling really hot that it's so hot and obviously coupled of that was wearing a dressing down as well like a
02:17:54 wearing a dressing down as well like a woolly dressing on so it was really really hot and very smoky but the same smoke I'd say from the man we're not there what you then explained in your
02:18:07 there what you then explained in your stables that you you started running down the stairwell and is it right that it wasn't until a much lower floor that you you saw any light yes if we look
02:18:19 you you saw any light yes if we look please at page 16 in paragraph 68 please
02:18:29 after what felt like a lifetime in the dark I saw a light I now understand that he was somewhere around the third floor that was like seeing a light from heaven
02:18:40 what do you base your understanding that it was somewhere around the third floor that you first saw a light I'd say I just know it was one of the it was right at the bottom I think it was before you
02:18:52 at the bottom I think it was before you get there was a couple of floors before you get to the to the main lift area and I know that they had just built him I
02:19:03 I know that they had just built him I mean sorry yeah before he was those nothing man and they're they just built in some flats there so I that's why I thought it was between the first in there and the third floor if we look in
02:19:14 there and the third floor if we look in fact at your paragraph 69 on the same page please what you say there were two or three firefighters on the third
02:19:26 or three firefighters on the third floors are picking that up would and in your recollection do you link seeing firefighters with there being light what do you think it became light before you saw any firefighters as you were making
02:19:42 saw any firefighters as you were making your way down the stairwell well you were aware of anyone other than Sean coming down behind you yeah there was the one behind us I felt they were
02:19:57 the one behind us I felt they were things on the floor there were but there was I didn't see anyone physically and I couldn't see anyone who couldn't even see Sean
02:20:11 and we don't need to go through this but it's right isn't it that when you got to the bottom a firefighter took your daughter and water outside and then you were given a hard hat and then it to go
02:20:24 were given a hard hat and then it to go out through the main entrance is that right yes now if we pick it up please at
02:20:34 page 17 and paragraphs 71 to 73
02:20:52 you say if we look at how rough in 72 that who saw someone at the triage we directed over to sit next to a tree looking up at the building from which we had just escaped a firefighter bought
02:21:05 had just escaped a firefighter bought two oxygen masks over to us Sean and I shared one and you gave your daughter the other what you've described miss or your wallet is coming down coming out of
02:21:16 your wallet is coming down coming out of your flat into a communal area of smoke and a stairwell of smoke so on immediate exit or having exits of the tower can
02:21:28 exit or having exits of the tower can you describe what physical effect that had had on you I mean it was hard to breathe like my nose was filled with
02:21:42 breathe like my nose was filled with certs my throat was sort of suit and I remember my body just naturally that I felt disgusting but I was blowing my
02:21:53 felt disgusting but I was blowing my nose and that even felt like people around me did see me and in a way that was quite embarrassing but I was blowing my nose and as I blew thick black soot was coming out of my nose it was hard to
02:22:06 was coming out of my nose it was hard to breathe
02:22:06 breathe I was disorientated I felt weak but at the same time I was shocked it's even
02:22:17 the same time I was shocked it's even real
02:22:21 and what about the effect on your daughter
02:22:35 oh my daughter was dead
02:22:41 because of that taken in that smoke into my body it's because I am and his little she is
02:22:49 she is she'd consume the same amount of smoke that I had consumed in Herring her under stairs on her dad's back behind behind
02:23:03 stairs on her dad's back behind behind me I could hear her taking what I thought that was her last breaths on the stairs and obviously when we came out
02:23:14 stairs and obviously when we came out she was just taken and taken away she was she was in a bad way
02:23:27 can I just ask you a couple more questions about your time outside the tower we know from your statement you were taken to hospital at any time
02:23:38 were taken to hospital at any time before you were taken to hospital were you asked by either firefighters police officers or paramedics which floor or flat had come from I think we might have
02:23:53 flat had come from I think we might have been asked when we came and can you remember who asked you do you recall I
02:24:07 remember who asked you do you recall I either when you encountered the firefighters on the third floor or when you were outside the tower speaking to a firefighter and telling them how many residents had been in flat one one three
02:24:24 mr. Chang those are all the questions I have but could I ask for the usual short break was just to check if there are any supplementary oh that's force thinks
02:24:37 supplementary oh that's force thinks he's finished his questions he made he needs an opportunity just to check that so we're going to have another short break now just to give him time to do that so again could you please not not
02:24:50 that so again could you please not not talk to anyone about your evidence but arrives to the room and if you'd like to go with the ocean now we'll come back at ten to one and see if any more questions all right thank you very much
02:25:08 right ten-to-one please
02:38:36 a few more questions mr. Ellis yes
02:38:56 I think mr. rabbit there's a few more questions hopefully we won't take up too much time can i my questions are
02:39:08 much time can i my questions are directed towards the last time that a firefighter kept your home and just before you and your family left to go down the stairwell could I have please Emme T three zeros
02:39:22 could I have please Emme T three zeros one two five nine three page twelve please and could we expand flat three in the southwest corner miss oh yeah Willie
02:39:38 the southwest corner miss oh yeah Willie you you may need to stand up and point things out on this plan but I just want to try and understand where firstly where everyone was when you saw this firefighters so I think the bedroom that
02:39:52 firefighters so I think the bedroom that you will that you which was your bedroom is it's the one that's farthest away from the lounge is that right yes and what you when you what you begin
02:40:05 yes and what you when you what you begin then it's paragraph 58 that we're looking at you say that the bedroom door opened at that time who was in the bedroom with you I understand that all for my collection was all of us were in
02:40:18 for my collection was all of us were in the bedroom because we were all told to stay in the bedroom
02:40:22 and did the bedroom door opened fully yeah would have would have a painfully so from that with that open door were
02:40:35 so from that with that open door were you able to get a view of your front door from the bedroom yes and the five fights Oracle said yes I'm interested in this as well can you just point out which side the door was hinged
02:41:13 Thanks so just just so that we can clarify for the transcript firstly in terms of your bedroom door opens inwards into the room yeah and it opens inwards to the right yeah and so if you're
02:41:30 to the right yeah and so if you're standing outside the bedroom door and the opening the door will open inwards to the right as you're looking in yes and and just for the transcript and we
02:41:42 and and just for the transcript and we just clarify where your bed was in relation to the window so you're the
02:41:59 relation to the window so you're the head the head of your bed was against the wall that separates your bedroom from your daughter's bedroom yes now you've told us so
02:42:11 you've told us so with the bedroom door open you could see through to the front door is that right yes
02:42:17 yes where was the firefighter that you saw the front door so in the hallway
02:42:26 this allows you to see into my bedroom and the bed was there dennis was there can we just can I pause you there and just before I'll just ask you one more
02:42:38 just before I'll just ask you one more question about so the firefighter again for the transcript was was the firefighter close to the front door and that was the only firefighter you could
02:42:49 that was the only firefighter you could see is that right so how do you believe the bedroom door opened and do you have
02:43:04 the bedroom door opened and do you have any recollection of someone in the bedroom
02:43:08 bedroom opening the bedroom door and you didn't see that firefighter at any time with his hand on the bedroom the handle of the bedroom door
02:43:25 whether it was him that came and opened it or someone from the bedroom opened it but I feel like if I was in the bedroom I would have seen some of those who think about common member at that point
02:43:39 think about common member at that point when the bedroom door opened had any of the neighbors that were sheltering in your flat left the bedroom so just we've
02:43:51 your flat left the bedroom so just we've you told us where your bed was can you just describe where you're set out your recollection of where everybody was
02:44:04 [Music] Jeremiah was on the bed by himself because my daughter was on her dad's but we were by the window myself sheryn Anthes on and over one Muhammad
02:44:22 sheryn Anthes on and over one Muhammad was set around her the bed and saying that would have been about a frontier so again from the for the transcript
02:44:35 so again from the for the transcript Denis was at the top of the bed closest to the wall between the two bedrooms but on the side of the bed is closest to the bedroom door zeyneb was on the floor but near near to
02:44:49 zeyneb was on the floor but near near to the bedroom door but on the side opposite to where it opens yourself your partner and and your daughter were by
02:45:01 partner and and your daughter were by the bedroom window and she was was she strapped to her father's back at that time yet and where do you remember Omar
02:45:12 time yet and where do you remember Omar and Mohammed
02:45:21 so they were on the side of the bed that's closest to thee to the window
02:45:32 so when you and Sean left the bedroom which of your neighbors would go but
02:46:16 which of your neighbors would go but when you left when you left or as you were leaving the bedroom were you aware of any of your neighbors being ahead of you so you were the first to leave the bedroom
02:46:35 but I just I would say you were the first to me were you aware of where your
02:46:46 first to me were you aware of where your neighbors were as you left your flat
02:46:52 [Music]
02:47:00 well you aware of any of them being in any other parts of the flat because I remember everyone being told to stay inside the bedroom so I remember quite
02:47:12 inside the bedroom so I remember quite clearly that we were all inside the bedroom thank you just one final matter for me please its first of all to thank you for your
02:47:23 first of all to thank you for your detailed witness statement and also for the patience that you've shown in answering my questions today and the final question I'd would like to ask you is is there anything further about the
02:47:34 is is there anything further about the events of that night above what you've put in your written statement and of what you've said today and that you saw and heard on that night which you think it's important for the Chairman to know
02:47:45 it's important for the Chairman to know about I would like to say that I would like to why I personally would like to
02:47:56 like to why I personally would like to thank the fireman that came back to the door whoever it was the fireman that said get out go I would like to thank him I am grateful to him for coming back
02:48:09 him I am grateful to him for coming back and doing that
02:48:12 however the my record might be my recollection of a lot of the other statements that that's not how I remember it happening I would also like
02:48:24 remember it happening I would also like to say that for anyone to say that they do not regret what happened you know or
02:48:35 do not regret what happened you know or will not change anything about what happened on that night I know for a fact that I wasn't to blame and I would definitely change certain things about what happened that night if I could and
02:48:46 what happened that night if I could and I think it's quite a slap in the face for anyone to say that they don't they wouldn't change anything about what happened that night or they have no regrets about what happened that night I would also like to say that we lost
02:49:00 would also like to say that we lost beautiful beautiful beautiful people that night innocent children every one that that passed away that night was innocent and nobody deserved that
02:49:11 nobody deserved that and if events might have happened my played out differently then I might probably wouldn't be sitting here today myself so I just think the people that
02:49:26 myself so I just think the people that came back that night or the firemen that came back that night they were you know on many occasions people came back people had the chance to see how many people were brought into after that
02:49:37 people were brought into after that people had the chance to see the states of the people that were walking to our flat and for there not to be any precautions taken into place and you
02:49:49 precautions taken into place and you know the right equipment being given to people to come and get people out of a flat I think if they did have the correct equipment then I think that I personally think that the people that
02:50:01 personally think that the people that passed away an awful lot possibly wouldn't have passed away and that's all I'd like to say thank you and thank you once again for coming to give evidence today it has been enormously helpful to
02:50:13 today it has been enormously helpful to us thank you I'd like to add to that I'm really grateful to you for coming along it was obviously a terrifying experience and one which is very distressing not just at the time but I think quite
02:50:25 just at the time but I think quite distressing for you to come and describe to us today but your evidence is really very valuable and I'm really grateful to you for coming along to give it thank you very much indeed all right
02:50:37 you very much indeed all right we're now you're free to go would you like to give the Irish to look after you thank you thank you very much
02:50:54 want me to roll it it's probably a convenient moment which suggests a this gem yes well we'll break now for lunch and resume at 10 past two that Jesus thank you very much don't force too