Testimony from Paulus Tecla, resident of Flat 153 (18th floor), describing the night of the fire, interactions with firefighters, stay-put advice, and the tragic loss of his son Isaac during evacuation.
00:06:06 you
00:18:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing in which we're going to hear more evidence from people who were in the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. Allen good morning mr. chairman
00:18:35 yes mr. Allen good morning mr. chairman may I now call Paulus Tecla thank you
00:18:57 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty if it does like you I should
00:19:09 Almighty if it does like you I should give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth rules
00:19:17 thank you very much what Stickley we'd like to sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you yes good morning
00:19:30 comfortable thank you yes good morning good morning can you give the inquiry your full name please my full name is Paulus what does Allah say totally mr.
00:19:41 Paulus what does Allah say totally mr. deklay first of all thank you very much for coming to give evidence today your willingness to continue to help the inquiries very much appreciate it the
00:19:52 inquiries very much appreciate it the core participants and their representatives will all have had the chance to read the statement that you've provided to this inquiry yeah and the purpose of today is not for us to read
00:20:03 purpose of today is not for us to read out the whole statement or to ask you questions about every part of it as with other witnesses my questions will focus on the conditions that you encountered on the night of the fire and what you
00:20:16 on the night of the fire and what you yourself saw and heard I appreciate that reliving the events of that terrible night will be difficult and so if you need a break at any time please just let
00:20:29 need a break at any time please just let me know and we will stop I'm going to try and take your evidence in time order I hope that I will keep my questions
00:20:40 I hope that I will keep my questions short and simple but sometimes they don't come out like that and if I do ask you a question that you don't understand please don't hesitate to tell me and I
00:20:52 please don't hesitate to tell me and I will then ask the question in a different way okay
00:20:57 the first thing that we need to do is to put your inquiry statement formally into the record and so can we have please the first page of that statement the references iws four zeros one zero five
00:21:11 references iws four zeros one zero five one if you look at the screen that's on the desk in front of mr. Sekulow you can see that that's the first page of your statement of the inquiry and if you need it you've already found it I
00:21:22 you need it you've already found it I think there's there's a paper copy there and if you I think turn to tab 1 you'll see that the statement is there as well if we go to page 16 of that document
00:21:46 and hopefully page six is also on the screen but it's got a statement of truth and then a signature can you confirm that that's your signature please yes it
00:21:57 that that's your signature please yes it is and it's dated as we can see the 21st of August 2018 yeah have you had a chance to go through the statement recently mr. Sedley yeah I did and can you confirm that the contents of
00:22:10 and can you confirm that the contents of the statement are true yes it is that all we also have to the statement seven exhibits which are at identified as PT 1
00:22:23 exhibits which are at identified as PT 1 2 PT 7 and they are in the same document of pages 17 to 39 we'll be looking at some of those exhibits as we go through
00:22:34 some of those exhibits as we go through your evidence but could I start please by just asking you some background questions ok if we go back to the first page of your statement in this you begin
00:22:55 page of your statement in this you begin in your statement by explaining that your partner and two boys moved into flat one five three on the 18th floor can you remember what when that was it
00:23:08 can you remember what when that was it was 1st of June but the or the obviously the council gave a week notice you know to give to move their staffs so
00:23:20 to give to move their staffs so officially they moved in the 1st of June and was that in 2016 yes and was it your partner to held the tenancy yes she did she didn't can you remember who that
00:23:32 she didn't can you remember who that tenancy was with I think was TM or
00:23:40 and it's right isn't it that whilst you didn't live in flat one five free all the time you were there virtually every day
00:23:47 day yeah every day every other day visiting my children sometimes I stay with them and anything when they need me I'm there always yourself sir and was one reason
00:24:01 always yourself sir and was one reason that you could do that was that because you had a flexible work schedule yes and so you could work around your family commitments could you oh yes yes that
00:24:13 commitments could you oh yes yes that helps me as well because my job is twenty-four hours of I level so I can do a morning evening so it that helps you know thank you
00:24:26 know thank you the next topic I want to ask you questions about is the layout of the flat in 2016 and sorry in June 2017
00:24:41 flat in 2016 and sorry in June 2017 can I just take you just to paragraph six in your statement which is on page two in this part of your statement you
00:24:54 two in this part of your statement you say that when the family moved into flat one five three there were problems with the windows and you had a lot of drafts and air coming in through the windows was that still a problem
00:25:06 was that still a problem in June 2017 yes and was it a problem with windows in a particular room in the flat all of the rooms except I don't
00:25:20 flat all of the rooms except I don't know about the kitchen but all other rooms there was a problem well um can I ask you a few more questions about that and I want to show you a plan that might
00:25:32 and I want to show you a plan that might help you if we go please to m ET three zeros one to five nine three page twelve if I explain mr. Steckler that this is a plan of the fourth floor of the tower
00:25:44 plan of the fourth floor of the tower but the layout of the flats that we see there is replicated as you go up to the higher floors so it would be the same on your floor the 18th floor if we could expand flat three in
00:25:58 floor if we could expand flat three in the southwest corner please
00:26:10 and so on the 4th floor that was flat 13 on the 18th floor it will be flat 1 5 3 and we see that it's 2 bedrooms each with a
00:26:21 see that it's 2 bedrooms each with a window facing south whilst we got the plan up there can you confirm was the bedroom that was closest to the lounge the one that was used by your children yeah and the other bedroom
00:26:35 your children yeah and the other bedroom would be next door to flat 1 5 2 wouldn't it yes and so of all the rooms that you used in the flat would it be
00:26:47 that you used in the flat would it be right to say that the lounge was the furthest room from flat 1 5 to 10 if can we show us on the on the image can we
00:27:01 we show us on the on the image can we see flat 1 5 2 & 1 5 flap 2 & 3 together please the next door flat 2 you get the
00:27:12 please the next door flat 2 you get the flat 1 5 2 it wouldn't it yes fold 1 4 3 we can see the question that I asked was if you can see that your your lounge
00:27:23 if you can see that your your lounge yeah on that plan would that be the furthest room in your that from flat 1 5 - yep now again if we expand the part of
00:27:37 - yep now again if we expand the part of the plan that's flat 3 please
00:27:43 what you've told us was that the problem with the windows was with the exception of the kitchen with it you noticed a problem with all windows so if we look
00:27:54 problem with all windows so if we look at the bedrooms they've each got a window where was the air coming in in the bedrooms can you remember from bos bedroom the from the
00:28:08 remember from bos bedroom the from the bottom of the window and when you say from the bottom was that at the windowsill level yeah it seemed to see Lavinia was it below the sill or above it I don't know I'm not sure but it's
00:28:22 it I don't know I'm not sure but it's this looks like we're about this the lounge as we can see from the plan would have windows facing south and west if we
00:28:36 have windows facing south and west if we look first of all at the windows facing south and there's two windows they're marked in blue on the plan yeah again did you notice a problem with air and
00:28:47 did you notice a problem with air and drafts in those windows I remember she used to put a towel in the window near to the bedroom and other one the audit
00:29:03 to the bedroom and other one the audit handle was not working she enabled to open it so I'm not sure if that was a leak or not but I remember there was a
00:29:14 leak or not but I remember there was a problem in the hundred so with the lounge windows you're not so sure if there was a problem with drafts no there's a draft on the one which is close to the bedroom right so that's the
00:29:26 close to the bedroom right so that's the one closest to your son's bedroom yes yes and again with that window so that's just for the record that's the south-facing lounge window closest to
00:29:37 south-facing lounge window closest to the bedroom on that again where did you notice the air coming in Samira I lack with the bedrooms the same location just she just pulls you know the weight on
00:29:49 she just pulls you know the weight on the bottom sole I think it must appear under the window and when you say she that's a Gannett your yes yes good yeah and you said and
00:30:04 your yes yes good yeah and you said and it might just be the the transcription but you said that Gannett would put wet towels down yes why was that just you see when we when my family moved at that
00:30:18 see when we when my family moved at that time it was summer so we know not his any problem because it is summer odd weather but when winter comes we start
00:30:30 weather but when winter comes we start noticing the leak the draft comes from the windows why did she make the towels wet I think you know wait I'm not sure
00:30:49 wet I think you know wait I'm not sure to be honest the way she puts a wet hour later I don't know it I'm a probably say you know when he say wait all like just like putting a towel maybe but I don't
00:31:02 like putting a towel maybe but I don't know he used to put I don't know it but it's a Ptolemy it maybe not went out to be honest have to say here I don't know she's the one who's doing it so I said
00:31:13 she's the one who's doing it so I said it's wait hour it may be like it's a common error you know saying but I remember I've seen a waiter I seen it hard
00:31:22 hard shall I shall I put it that way better way so so it's not I don't know it just so that we can be clear what you do remember is is you connect having to put
00:31:35 remember is is you connect having to put towels at the bedroom windows and at that window in the Lauer's which was closest to the bedroom in India as well as in the West
00:31:47 as in the West windows are sweaty let's go to the west side we've got three windows facing west in the lounge can you tell us which of those windows
00:31:59 can you tell us which of those windows had drafts and air coming through the one in close to the kitchen I remember she would let me correct it this time
00:32:10 she would let me correct it this time maybe without and the one in the corner I remember the handle the two corners windows the handle has a problem had the
00:32:23 windows the handle has a problem had the problem so I'm not sure if she threw the towel or not so again and correct me if I'm if I'm summarizing your evidence in the wrong way
00:32:33 way but what you remember is a problem with drafts in the lounge window that was closest to the kitchen they were having to use a towel at that window yeah I remember those and then
00:32:45 window yeah I remember those and then the other problem that you've alluded to is that the two Lounge windows in the southwest corner of the lounge there was problems there with the handle and so
00:32:56 problems there with the handle and so those couldn't open properly yes and was that still a problem for you in June 2017 with those handles yes I don't
00:33:07 2017 with those handles yes I don't think they sorted the problem I remember she told me that they were coming to fix it
00:33:14 it she reports through them but they said we'll fix that I don't think they fix it could we take the plan back to the original size please and could we just
00:33:27 original size please and could we just expand the area that the the part of the plan that takes in flat 4 flat 3 and the communal area please
00:33:44 we can see I hope you can make out mr. Sekulow from that plan your front door that opens out into the communal lobby area do you see that yeah um can you
00:33:58 area do you see that yeah um can you before we leave this plan just help us with this what could you see from the front door the front door you see a wall because that wall is the lifts no which
00:34:13 because that wall is the lifts no which takes you to the lifts of the wall there's nothing there and so in if you wanted to see the lifts themselves would you have to walk out into the lobby area yes but from if you
00:34:28 into the lobby area yes but from if you were standing on at the edge of your front door with the front door open would you be able to would you have a line of sight to the stairwell door
00:34:40 you'll be able to see it well if you stand in on the lobby but we haven't noticed to be honest there's a staircase there but hopefully according to the
00:34:52 there but hopefully according to the plan when you see you see it but do you remember being able to see the door to the stairwell from your front door I haven't tried it but is possible had you
00:35:07 haven't tried it but is possible had you yourself use the stairs before yes I did throw it once but did you mostly when when when you were coming to the flat do you know less no just because as you
00:35:20 you know less no just because as you know my job is like private her driver so we have been sitting for a long time and I take it like as an exercise and woke up all the way up to the 18th floor
00:35:34 woke up all the way up to the 18th floor and all only ones
00:35:39 it's if you use the stairs as exercise all the way up to the 18th floor do you remember whether the door that led from the stairs into the lobby area
00:35:51 led from the stairs into the lobby area of the 18th floor do you remember whether it closed automatically after you used it I have a noticed and before we leave this plant
00:36:03 noticed and before we leave this plant can I just ask one last question please and that is about the door the front door of your own flat do you remember if that closed automatically it used to be
00:36:18 to be honest I don't recall I better to say I don't remember so you can't help us with whether it was closing automatically in June 2017 I don't know
00:36:38 can I take you to page three of your statement please mr. Sekulow
00:36:44 and just let's just take a look at paragraph nine in this statement what
00:36:56 paragraph nine in this statement what you say is that prior to the fire you hadn't received any information or advice about fire safety in the tower
00:37:06 are you okay to see a photographic image yes of course mr. chairman it's an image that we've shown a number of witnesses now it isn't and and but if fathers wish
00:37:21 now it isn't and and but if fathers wish to look away or step out now is the moment whilst I give the reference can we have please be la four zeros two four one six mr Tecla if I can explain this
00:37:36 one six mr Tecla if I can explain this is a photograph taken one by one of the inquiries experts and if the photograph of a fire safety notice that was cited by at the lips on the third floor do you
00:37:51 by at the lips on the third floor do you remember seeing a notice like this between the lifts on the 18th floor no I don't remember no I don't remember do you remember seeing it at all by the
00:38:03 you remember seeing it at all by the lifts on the ground floor no I thought I don't remember what you have said in your statement to see you had family friend and you had friends in the tower
00:38:14 friend and you had friends in the tower didn't you yes and particularly as we will come to in due course you had friends who lived on the seventh floor yeah yeah when you were visiting or
00:38:25 yeah yeah when you were visiting or going to other floors in the tower did you notice sign like this on any other floor only visits their flat ones
00:38:36 other floor only visits their flat ones and I don't know this any of these signs I never believed me as a flat apart from the seventh and eighth is floor during that one year period thank you very much
00:38:50 period thank you very much can we just move on to a different topic I just want to ask you that did you have any alarms in your flat
00:39:00 yes I noticed this too I learned there's one in the kitchen and one in the front of the corridor close to the front door
00:39:13 of the corridor close to the front door I'm not sure about the one in the where the bedrooms are and the living rooms are are the remembers of it I remember these two and
00:39:24 remembers of it I remember these two and did you know what kind of alarms those worth were I don't know but I may go ahead of you you know I noticed the one on the front close to the kitchen when
00:39:41 on the front close to the kitchen when we are about to leave the floods very late because it's called the the smoke came in and I heard another it's art like a larva this it's like very very
00:39:56 like a larva this it's like very very it's not loudest it's really very neat this is not really it's a like put it this way the mobile is more louder than that or not I remember that when we get
00:40:08 that or not I remember that when we get out and that was on the night itself was it yes oh and I noticed Earth okay can I come something like that yeah because it comes Alan so you've described two alarms and you told us
00:40:20 described two alarms and you told us where they were before the night had you ever heard either alarm go off no I don't remember
00:40:32 could we now move on to the 13th and 14th of June of 2017 please and can I take you back to page three of your
00:40:44 take you back to page three of your statement and if we look paragraphs 10 down please
00:41:01 so in your statement mr. tech lay you've explained that you collected your son Isaac from Kumaon maths and you bought him home and your partner Kinect came
00:41:14 him home and your partner Kinect came back with your younger son and also the son of a of the friends who lived on the seventh floor is that right yes can you remember when
00:41:25 is that right yes can you remember when you came home that night if the lights were working in the lobby area on the 18th floor yeah there was a light and it's a normal night you know like
00:41:37 it's a normal night you know like everyone every other night so the light was there because it was evil to walk through the lobby to the flat so it
00:41:50 through the lobby to the flat so it maybe one or two may not work I'm not sure about that but definitely there was a light and it was hilarious um can I take you back slightly because obviously
00:42:01 take you back slightly because obviously if you had a flexible work schedule that meant you you came and went at different times yeah when you were either coming back to flat 1 5 3 at night and this is
00:42:14 back to flat 1 5 3 at night and this is before the fire or leaving it at night do you remember whether the lobby lights the lights in the communal area on the 18th floor were always on yes so was that no matter I cannot say
00:42:27 so was that no matter I cannot say always one but when I walk in to go to user lifts I don't I don't see any days which the light was another one off so even if were there times when you would
00:42:38 even if were there times when you would have to leave very late at night to work yeah yeah there was a light and if you were coming back very early in the morning where the lights on there was
00:42:49 morning where the lights on there was really showing the lights as far as thank you could I take you then to paragraph 16 of your statement which is
00:43:00 paragraph 16 of your statement which is on the next page please bottom of the page if that could be expanded
00:43:10 as you've explained both now in your evidence and in your statement you've described it as a normal night and and you explained how the family went to bed
00:43:21 you explained how the family went to bed that night what you say in paragraph 16 is that you were woken up by voices and noises outside the flat and you mention that you heard at least two women's
00:43:33 that you heard at least two women's voices yeah could you hear what was being said I don't remember it was like
00:43:47 there were a panicking voice can I put that way I don't know what they said but something like that did they sound as if
00:43:59 something like that did they sound as if they were having a conversation with each other or suppose mix its you know panicking that you don't pick what they said what was it that you remember about
00:44:12 said what was it that you remember about the voices that made you think they were panicking yeah the voice is a strange voice which is Lucas sounds like there's not normal it's not normal voice is there must be so probably you also
00:44:27 there must be so probably you also mention okay you say voices and the noises of people did you hear any other noises oh no I only give the attention of the tormance
00:44:38 of the tormance so I didn't hear any other voice do you remember hearing anyone knock on your front door at about this time and what
00:44:51 front door at about this time and what you've helpfully done is in your statement you you you've exhibited your phone records and you're able and we'll come back to this but you you refer in
00:45:03 come back to this but you you refer in this paragraph to calls that were made by your partner and yourself at 132 and 134 and you say I believe that I was working at some point earlier than this
00:45:15 working at some point earlier than this so at anytime before you made those court
00:45:20 court did anyone knock on your front door they did they told us but I wish we were workers at them but no so you don't have
00:45:32 workers at them but no so you don't have a recollection of anybody knocking on your door at all no if we look now a paragraph 17 which is on the next page
00:45:44 paragraph 17 which is on the next page please
00:45:53 what you say miss deklay's that you got up to investigate and then you opened the front door of the flat and and
00:46:04 the front door of the flat and and you've if we look at the first line of paragraph 17 you say we open the front door of the flat so does that mean that both you and Jeanette went to the front door together yes before you opened it
00:46:21 door together yes before you opened it did you notice if there was any smoke coming through your front door to be honest I didn't notice but even there was another small car that stage when we
00:46:34 was another small car that stage when we opened what you say is there was no light in the lobby area and given what you've told us earlier about your coming
00:46:47 you've told us earlier about your coming and going was that unusual yes it is unusual it's full of directly so it is full of dark yeah so when you
00:46:59 so it is full of dark yeah so when you opened your front door it was just completely dark in the landing area yes
00:47:06 what you described in his paragraph is seeing your neighbor from flat or 152 at the time did you know her name no have you come to know her name since
00:47:18 no have you come to know her name since yes recently even with I know she's gonna give this message this afternoon recently I know her name I don't think there's any issue about this we and we
00:47:30 there's any issue about this we and we believe that it's that's a reference to your neighbor Rob yah yah yah yah yah now aside from from her could you see any other neighbors at this time no
00:47:43 any other neighbors at this time no could you hear any noise from the other flats no could you see any smoke at all in the landing in the lobby area I
00:47:55 in the landing in the lobby area I don't notice but I don't think it was there maybe on the other side but I could not say yes or no so I'm not sure could you smell anything different
00:48:06 could you smell anything different no there's no mud so you smell anything that indicates smoke at all at that time
00:48:21 that indicates smoke at all at that time what was the temperature like on on the in the lobby area it was an autumn own I don't normally say much and you did you
00:48:36 don't normally say much and you did you did you step out into the lobby area or did you stay at your front door no we step out of the doorway that look everything and went back but we didn't
00:48:50 everything and went back but we didn't go any far you just so that we're clear you stepped out of your front door yeah but you didn't go much further into obviously flat one five - the door is in
00:49:04 obviously flat one five - the door is in the same your line is your scissors um if we look at the long sentence you say that the Gannett spoke to the neighbor
00:49:16 that the Gannett spoke to the neighbor from flat one five two who told her that there was a fire in the tower did you hear that conversation yourself no I
00:49:27 hear that conversation yourself no I went back I think she was talking but we know I just pick only a word like there's fire but she stay a little bit behind and I went back and throw try to
00:49:41 behind and I went back and throw try to call
00:49:42 call yes and I was not sure either before after a colossal can I come back to that I'm a did gonna come back into the flat
00:49:55 I'm a did gonna come back into the flat and tell you what she'd learned from the neighbor yeah yeah she told him yes well sure I've already know when I went back but she already told me and do you
00:50:08 but she already told me and do you remember if the neighbor from flat won 5-2 told Gannett we're in the building the fire was no did you see what the
00:50:25 the fire was no did you see what the neighbor from what one five two did then after having spoken to get it what were you already back in your flat oh really back wonderfully when you so the
00:50:38 back wonderfully when you so the information you had at this time was that there was a fire in the tower yeah did you make a check to try and see where the fire might be to be honest no
00:50:55 where the fire might be to be honest no only the ocean I was taken was to call to the neighbors and to see what was happening on their floor if they know anything if they woke up so you don't
00:51:09 anything if they woke up so you don't remember at that time for example looking at looking out from the windows of your flat I don't know I may probably Danny that I don't recall can we look at paragraph 19
00:51:24 don't recall can we look at paragraph 19 please bottom of the same page thank you
00:51:31 you've mentioned this before and I just want to ask couple questions and that's your contact with your neighbors at this point and in this paragraph what what you described is that yourself and
00:51:42 you described is that yourself and Gannett made calls at 1:32 a.m. and 1:30 4:00 a.m. to Abraham who is on the seventh floor is that is that Abraham a
00:51:53 seventh floor is that is that Abraham a baby yes I promise the parent died of a beam yeah yeah and did he live in flat 44 on the seventh floor
00:52:04 44 on the seventh floor yeah seventh floor yes but he didn't answer those calls did he know who didn't but then he did call you back and what'd you say in your statement is
00:52:17 and what'd you say in your statement is I told them there was a fire in the tower to wake up his family and to take action what action did you want him to take obviously when I say to take action
00:52:32 take obviously when I say to take action it means to find out what's going on and to if necessary to take action is to
00:52:43 to if necessary to take action is to escape if it is serious and to find out what was going on on the flat because this must be serious that's why I called
00:52:55 this must be serious that's why I called him on that time normally I don't call him people very little time but I found it was very serious you said that one of the things
00:53:12 serious you said that one of the things that you had in mind was that if necessary Abraham might need to escape did you think at that time yourself that you might need to leave your flat yeah
00:53:25 you might need to leave your flat yeah but we were I thought him to be honest there was no any sign of fire in our floor and the same in his floor when we
00:53:40 floor and the same in his floor when we have a conversation but later on we found out it was serious after he left the flat so the only thing different I saw at that time is the lobby is full of
00:53:53 saw at that time is the lobby is full of dark and
00:53:57 dark and so there wasn't anything about the fact did you have any information that made you think that if someone was on a lower floor it may be more serious for them yes yes well what was the information
00:54:10 yes yes well what was the information that you had that made you think it's more serious for someone on a lower floor it's not like more serious on the lower floor just at that stage we don't know which floor what was happening so
00:54:23 know which floor what was happening so to find out what was going on if I know other more people I could have called the net did the same called on 22nd floor so Hodgins family can I talk about
00:54:36 floor so Hodgins family can I talk about that because you've just explained again and you say this in your statement and Gannett rang with a Hashim Kadir family yeah and Hashim Kadir told her that he'd
00:54:48 yeah and Hashim Kadir told her that he'd spoken to the fire brigade did Gannett tell you what advice mr. Qadir had received from the fire brigade yeah sure obviously she told me that he contacted
00:55:01 obviously she told me that he contacted the fire brigade and they're gonna comment rescue them if Annie mentioned about to sit down on the floor of the flat and waiting to be rescued she told
00:55:14 flat and waiting to be rescued she told me that even she mentioned about the helicopter
00:55:23 last question on this topic that's the information you've now got through Gannett from mr. Qadir did that influence your decision about what to do
00:55:34 influence your decision about what to do at that time at all obviously we were hoping you know there is no any doubt that we're gonna be stayed that long gone that night if the fire is very
00:55:45 gone that night if the fire is very serious so I didn't even thought for a minute or a second that's gonna cause all this disaster so my hope is there is
00:55:59 all this disaster so my hope is there is no any issue of this they know this is United Kingdom so they know what's going on this is an easy you know for the firefighters to control if not we
00:56:11 firefighters to control if not we believe we are gonna discuss that was what I believe mr. chairman we've been going for 45 minutes do you feel you'd
00:56:27 going for 45 minutes do you feel you'd like a break at this stage or are you happy to keep going I'll be fine I can keep going I may need it later but I think if we go for another quarter an hour then you deserve a break okay
00:56:41 Thank You mr. chairman and can I go please
00:56:44 please later paragraph 20 in your sandwiches on on page six yep paragraph 20 internal violence very helpful thank you very much Ralph um
00:56:58 what I want to ask you now in terms of the topic is is a neighbor coming into the top of the neighbor coming into your flat yes and what you say in these two
00:57:17 flat yes and what you say in these two paragraphs is that you opened the door to see what was happening outside again when you open that door was there any change in the lighting in the lobby area
00:57:29 change in the lighting in the lobby area is the service already dark so there's no light at all we used in the light comes from the flood that was only lights so there is no any difference
00:57:41 lights so there is no any difference from the previous one and this was so it was the lights were on in your hallway at that time yeah I'm talking yes yes did you on this is the second occasion
00:57:53 did you on this is the second occasion you've opened your front door did you notice any smoke on this occasion no I don't remember did you notice anything
00:58:04 don't remember did you notice anything that indicated a fire I think before that you know before I opened the second time the door we dressed up the children
00:58:21 so you you you'd woken your children by that yeah but again when you open that door and you're looking out in that
00:58:32 door and you're looking out in that Lobby you've told us that you didn't see any smoke but did you see and did you smell anything that might have suggested to you that there was a fire no I didn't smell any smell if we focus
00:58:50 no I didn't smell any smell if we focus on paragraph 21 you described seeing there a man that you later learned was called Yahoo Lachey 10 you and he was in
00:59:04 called Yahoo Lachey 10 you and he was in the lobby you say by the lift could you see him from your front door yeah when you go out yeah he was he was a standing
00:59:15 you go out yeah he was he was a standing front of right in front of the lift so when he saw us opening the door he come towards us and asked us if we want to
00:59:26 towards us and asked us if we want to stay with us and Willie I mean so just we can be clear about what was happening you you open your front door and and do then see mr. a new coming towards you oh
00:59:37 then see mr. a new coming towards you oh yes now you've told us that the the lights were off and it was dark yeah how easy was it to see him no because as I said before the flood the
00:59:50 because as I said before the flood the light comes from all flood would be able to see right so the light is your flat illuminated the your lobby area yeah you follow thank you
01:00:07 you've because you've got light coming out of your flat into the lobby area we were you able to see the doors of any other flats I don't remember do you remember hearing any noises from
01:00:19 do you remember hearing any noises from other flats nearby no I told you may
01:00:30 other flats nearby no I told you may have answered this already but when you saw him
01:00:34 saw him what was mr. nu doing that he was standing there then when we opened the door he told us that he was standing so
01:00:47 door he told us that he was standing so it was it was standing in front of lift and in the right it was in kinetic
01:00:58 and in the right it was in kinetic ignites him have you had you seen him before
01:01:02 before you said I never seen him before I never told you know and then he as you explained he asked to come into the flat is that right yeah so even though you've
01:01:13 is that right yeah so even though you've not seen him before
01:01:16 did you know before that night that mr. nu was living in flat 155 I've never seen him never know who is living in the flat no did you know who lived in flat
01:01:30 flat no did you know who lived in flat 155 I see 12 years old and a mother we made some sometimes in the lives of seasoned occasional a few times when he
01:01:47 seasoned occasional a few times when he came into your flat did mr. N you mentioned flat 155 at all yes emission no it's not number 155 but he mentioned he's in brick tell Brooke
01:02:00 he mentioned he's in brick tell Brooke that's where he did he said they say remember um and did he say what had happened to them no he said he they went
01:02:11 happened to them no he said he they went out before me but did so he said he explained to you that and this is Berkeley half done and her son that they had left the flat before him the this
01:02:22 had left the flat before him the this thus why he was alias did he tell you where they went no hito no he didn't told me where they went but he told me that they were not in his flat at that
01:02:33 that they were not in his flat at that time and did he tell you why he wanted to come into your flat no when he came off he said that this fire and they say
01:02:45 off he said that this fire and they say the smoke is coming smoke is under flood that's why he said he's coming toward flood so um if we if I could just ask if
01:02:56 flood so um if we if I could just ask if you can remember in more detail about this conversation it will be helpful so he tells you that there's smoke coming into the flat is that the flat where he was staying yes and did he tell you did he say
01:03:08 yes and did he tell you did he say anything else about the smoke to be honest I didn't ever didn't remember what he said apart from that the main reason why he was not staying in his flat is because of this more coming in
01:03:21 flat is because of this more coming in his flat did he tell you whether there was any fire in his flat no I don't remember to say that at that time this
01:03:36 remember to say that at that time this is as we've said the second time that you've opened your flat door did you go out into the lobby area at all at this time no I didn't go anywhere out apart
01:03:49 time no I didn't go anywhere out apart from the area in front of my front door
01:04:00 um
01:04:04 just to go back to the your conversation mr. nu what language was that conversation in yeah we speak the same language and because he knows granite he
01:04:18 language and because he knows granite he saw them few occasion in the lift so we were talking in our language which is American national language thank you
01:04:33 can I go to paragraph 22 please on page 6 again and this is now the second time
01:04:48 6 again and this is now the second time that you have contact with your friend Abraham a baby and you say that you received a call from him that your you're able to time at one forty nine
01:05:00 you're able to time at one forty nine and by then he'd left the tower with his family yeah did he tell you anything about how he got out of the tower yeah he did told me
01:05:12 got out of the tower yeah he did told me first he tried he tried to escape the fire he hauled his son in with his wife but the smoke after he went a certain
01:05:25 but the smoke after he went a certain floor he went back because of the smoke he said and later on the firemen came
01:05:37 he said and later on the firemen came they locked the door and they told them to leave and at that time when after he escaped the fire he told me that they
01:05:50 escaped the fire he told me that they come in knock on our door and we skipped he said this has been no advice about wait all he said they just you have to get out and they say they said it was
01:06:03 get out and they say they said it was very difficult to get down specially on the floor because of the smoke and when he told me that as well I was hoping
01:06:15 he told me that as well I was hoping that they're gonna come in no quarter as they did to him
01:06:23 what mr. baby explained to you was that they tried to get out once before firefighters came yes did he tell you anything else about why they he had decided to leave with his family before
01:06:36 decided to leave with his family before any firefighters came to his flat iti I haven't discussed about that because morale we were more interested how he escaped so I didn't ask him away we know
01:06:48 escaped so I didn't ask him away we know that what you also say in your statement is that mr. bae bae told you to get out so at that time and you've now had been
01:07:06 so at that time and you've now had been to the flat you've opened your flat door twice mr. nu has come into your flat and you've had two contacts with mr. BAE BAE what were your thoughts about leaving
01:07:17 what were your thoughts about leaving your flat at that time my thought was I think they start evacuating people because they knocked his flat and
01:07:29 because they knocked his flat and advised them to live so I thought they may as our firefighters saying it's worth floor that was we our hope and
01:07:41 worth floor that was we our hope and haven't even thought that we've been stuck there no for long
01:07:52 could I just take you now to paragraph 23 on page 7 we are going to new topic
01:08:04 23 on page 7 we are going to new topic and actually looking at my questions that it's a topic that it may take a bit of time yes well I think we might all have a break now mr. today I'm going to ask you not to talk to anyone about your
01:08:16 ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room we'll come back at ten past eleven and if you'd like to go with Yasha now she'll look after you right
01:08:36 ten past eleven please [Music]
01:15:21 you
01:20:18 yes exhaust mr. tech need to come in please
01:20:38 all right mr. Dudley yeah more kids happy to carry on okay okay thank you very much yes mr. mr. sect a thank you very much for coming back can I just
01:20:50 very much for coming back can I just take you back to just one point that I should have covered with you and that relates to the time when mr. n you came into your flat so could we please have page seven of your statement
01:21:03 please have page seven of your statement please
01:21:03 please so I WS four zeros one zero five one seven please just sorry page six if we
01:21:19 seven please just sorry page six if we look at paragraph 20 of the statement acting and your evidence earlier when I was asking you questions about the
01:21:31 was asking you questions about the arrival of mr. n you is that you could not remember seeing smoke in the land in the lobby area at the time but we see there's this a sentence in the middle of the paragraph six lines down which reads
01:21:44 the paragraph six lines down which reads I opened the door to see what was happening outside the lobby was dark and there was some smoke my question to you
01:21:55 there was some smoke my question to you is if taking you back to opening that door and this is the second time you've done it can you remember what was making the lobby dark it was already dark from when he opened in the first time so it
01:22:09 when he opened in the first time so it was the same the one I mentioned this one it was not on our side I think thus that smoke will be talking about his the other flat so opposite the
01:22:20 about his the other flat so opposite the other side on the other side of the floor yeah and where did you where did that information come from then he already said he already said that his
01:22:32 already said he already said that his flat is wok full of smoke that's why he left his flat can I show you an image please
01:22:42 please and it's iws four zeros one double zero one and that's page five so I ask you
01:22:55 one and that's page five so I ask you questions about this image if I explain please miss it shows a different floor to yours we can see flat one one one and
01:23:07 to yours we can see flat one one one and closest to the cameras the front door a flat one one two but if we were to move that up to your floor it would be what you could see from from your flat door
01:23:18 you could see from from your flat door so that you could see flat one five two and one one one five one couldn't you and can you see that in that photograph we can see that there's a light fixture on the wall between the two flat doors
01:23:30 on the wall between the two flat doors do you see that yeah was there something like that in your floor don't notice and so is your
01:23:44 floor don't notice and so is your evidence and if we go back to page six of your statement that on both occasions that you open the door the lobby was
01:23:56 that you open the door the lobby was dark and was that because there was no lighting
01:24:00 lighting there was no low total and the reference in paragraph 22 smoke is a reference to information that mr. nu gave you yes
01:24:15 can we go now to page seven and paragraph 23 please
01:24:32 beginning of this paragraph you will explain you describe and knock at the door at about around 2 a.m. and you say that mr. nu went to open the door and you followed him and you then saw a
01:24:44 you followed him and you then saw a firefighter can you remember where Gannett was at the time I don't remember because I was no I was
01:24:57 I don't remember because I was no I was on the ledge of the window to get to see what's happening so sit in there so the dust why the man mr. Anil went and
01:25:11 dust why the man mr. Anil went and opened the door so we were have a conversation arguing each other with their nets get off from the edge of the window that's was a conversation we did look can I just pause you better because
01:25:24 look can I just pause you better because I'd like to try and take things in order so you've just mentioned being on the ledge of the window yes so was this the
01:25:36 ledge of the window yes so was this the first time that you climbed out onto the ledge of the window yes that's the first time and which window did you climb out on the whirling close to the kitchen now
01:25:48 on the whirling close to the kitchen now is in with a face and wrists and did you how far out onto the ledge did you climb out I just sit there where I see through No
01:25:57 No so we were you just so that for the record were you sitting on the ledge of the window with your legs outside yeah the legs outside but she was worried
01:26:08 the legs outside but she was worried Kenneth was worried and and I thought maybe to see what's going on because in the previous conversation with Hashem's
01:26:19 the previous conversation with Hashem's there was a hope that the helicopter may come and rescue us so it's a part of that you know to taste what's going on and to see you know the to see if it is
01:26:35 and to see you know the to see if it is possible you know to jump from there holding one of my son and the other thing to get attention how we were
01:26:49 thing to get attention how we were suffering inside to get out that's all can I ask you this place and I appreciate that giving estimates of time
01:27:02 appreciate that giving estimates of time can be difficult but you told us earlier that you had a telephone conversation with mr. Bay Bay which began at 149 yeah and in your statement you say it lasts
01:27:13 and in your statement you say it lasts for about eight minutes yeah in this statement paragraph you say that you think it was around 2 a.m. when
01:27:24 that you think it was around 2 a.m. when there was the knock on the door yes do those two times to help you to say how soon after the core with mr. a baby they climbed out onto the ledge I was
01:27:38 they climbed out onto the ledge I was saying even in my statement is the police idea 45 minutes later that's what I said
01:27:43 I said so this is like approximate the reason why I mean Abraham have been a conversation for 8 minutes is because he's trying to find the firefighter or a
01:27:56 he's trying to find the firefighter or a police officer to tell where we are he was very worried about us because the fire is fast spread all the way to the top of that stage so why he was saying
01:28:09 top of that stage so why he was saying to me is to get out as much as as soon as possible and I see as a way of getting out in case if we not get been
01:28:23 getting out in case if we not get been rescued so at that stage I was thinking that that was one of option to get out plus when I see sitting there there was
01:28:36 plus when I see sitting there there was a children playground so I might be fooled saying that that I was thinking
01:28:46 - Eliza just take take
01:29:07 yeah I couldn't go yeah so can I just take you back to the telephone conversation mr. BAE BAE first of all you said that the conversation lasted as
01:29:20 you said that the conversation lasted as long as it did because he was trying to find a firefighter or a policeman yeah while you were on the phone with him yeah did you hear him speaking to a firefighter or policeman that's well I
01:29:32 firefighter or policeman that's well I don't remember anything because there was he was holding for a while looking to get the USN hold on hold on and try to get certain they've been pushed out from the where they were at
01:29:44 pushed out from the where they were at that time and you think that it was about 45 minutes after that call you then went onto the ledge yeah that is
01:29:55 then went onto the ledge yeah that is the yeah of the so obviously you cannot be sure about this approximate time of course yeah and I'm apologize for taking you through the detail but it is
01:30:07 you through the detail but it is important to get the seat oh no go to yeah and that was the first time that you went onto the ledge yes and it was before any firefighter came to your door
01:30:18 before any firefighter came to your door yeah
01:30:19 yeah so again I don't know it's just so that we can make sure that we've understood your evidence but the the reason that you were you climbed out onto that ledge
01:30:30 you were you climbed out onto that ledge was you told us to get attention I know to do everything to try if the that is one of the option to escape the fire the second thing obviously to get
01:30:43 the second thing obviously to get attention you know anything as that I'm what you think to get out of your way to that place so it's not particularly to
01:30:54 that place so it's not particularly to get attention or all of them everything you know I cannot describe what it's all of them almost one of the things in your mind at that time is detect lay sitting
01:31:05 mind at that time is detect lay sitting on that ledge on the 18th floor was that you might need to jump from that floor yeah now
01:31:13 yeah now not by myself we'll do one of myself the you've told us what you'd noticed when you opened your front door about the
01:31:26 you opened your front door about the lobby area and you've told us about the conversation you had with mr. of Bay Bay you know did you have any other information about the progress of the fire at that time obviously he told me
01:31:39 fire at that time obviously he told me that this goes all the way up his advice continuously was to get out so Canet was making a call with the other family even
01:31:50 making a call with the other family even her friends from 90s Flo Marin she had a conversation with Marin Hewitt and their
01:32:01 conversation with Marin Hewitt and their partner so there is a lo of things going on but I cannot tell you step by step what was going on but all of them they were saying to get out did you go back
01:32:15 were saying to get out did you go back to the front door to try and find out what the conditions were like in the lobby area not at all not not urbanised at all to go that way because it has
01:32:26 at all to go that way because it has been really the darkness of the lobby and the hope that we get from our friend
01:32:37 and the hope that we get from our friend that is been rescued by a firefighter from seventh floor all that hope makes us not to open the door and
01:32:53 I'm at the time that you were on the ledge yeah what were the conditions like in your flat no smoke no nothing there's
01:33:05 in your flat no smoke no nothing there's no smoke it's a there is no any smoke or any fire it's not much I'm from where you were sitting on that ledge where you were able to say you see anything of the
01:33:17 were able to say you see anything of the progress of the fire no this was not reached in our area or that stage it was on the other side clearly after that
01:33:31 on the other side clearly after that yeah so was your information coming from the phone call so you were getting with with people yeah yes could we go back
01:33:44 with people yeah yes could we go back then to the contact with the firefighter yep so when you heard the knock on the door yeah were you still on the ledge at
01:33:55 door yeah were you still on the ledge at that time yeah the nuke was really very loud it's very loud so we run away because the man was very desperate so he ran and that makes me to get off from
01:34:08 ran and that makes me to get off from the ledge of the window I think it's that that's how I went and
01:34:18 and the helicopters as well it supported me sitting down there but it's not a lot to be washed here so it
01:34:29 it's not a lot to be washed here so it was clearly seen that they when the pilot said one five three one five three and he was also reported so we were desperate at that stage to go so I was
01:34:41 desperate at that stage to go so I was able to see the footage of the helicopter last week while I was sitting on the ledge of the window just so that we can be clear before coming to give
01:34:55 we can be clear before coming to give evidence today you've watched helicopter footage that shows you sitting on the ledge
01:35:00 ledge yes he did show me he did yes I did watch last week and the feet of a footage and I saw a fire pilots saying 1 5 3 1 5 3 and there was very stressing
01:35:14 5 3 1 5 3 and there was very stressing you know watching dirtiest few moments ago you said that the the noise of the knocking was very loud yeah did you hear a voice or voices outside
01:35:26 did you hear a voice or voices outside the flat at this time no it's totally not so that's why we run we run to the front door straight away get off from the window and straight away oh and was
01:35:37 the window and straight away oh and was mr. n you ahead of ute the doctor he's the one hoping the door by the time that you would have had to climb off the ledge back into the lounge yeah yeah by the time that you got to the front door
01:35:48 the time that you got to the front door was it already open yeah you know it was open but it's not white you know he made probably talking with him he's halfway
01:36:01 probably talking with him he's halfway but when I come let's break that down a little bit so yeah when you got to the front door yeah mr. n you was already there yes he'd opened the front door
01:36:13 there yes he'd opened the front door yeah and can you tell us how far he'd opened the front door it's like you know talking someone like this and when I come obviously cannot talk of together two of us with a little open so we make
01:36:27 two of us with a little open so we make it widely open and start conversation with a firefighter I've come back to the conversation a moment um when you opened
01:36:39 conversation a moment um when you opened the front door wide open yeah did you notice what the conditions were like in the lobby I was really desperate to live I don't notice
01:36:52 desperate to live I don't notice anything we had a conversation with the firefighter so there was no any show of smoke or smell at that stage as far as I
01:37:03 smoke or smell at that stage as far as I remember
01:37:03 remember so was it still dark in the lobby it is all dark all the time yes it was ducked worthy were your hallway lights
01:37:16 ducked worthy were your hallway lights still on yes yes and did any smoke come into your flap through the open door I'm
01:37:27 into your flap through the open door I'm not sure about that but I don't think so because there was no any frighten off about the smoke because we're a good
01:37:40 about the smoke because we're a good conversation so there was no any show of smoke because it was fine but even I don't know he said that it's not in your
01:37:51 don't know he said that it's not in your side because obviously there was no smoke at that time so aside from it being dark what were the conditions like
01:38:03 being dark what were the conditions like in the lobby area as far as you could tell
01:38:06 tell I cannot tell anything about the lobby area because I was standing in the front of the door so on that condo at that time as a one firefighter in front of me
01:38:18 time as a one firefighter in front of me and talking to him that's what I remember at that stage but in the area around where the firefighter works you have any sense of the conditions it's
01:38:31 have any sense of the conditions it's the same like the area where we were in where he was is the same there's no any difference aside from that one firefighter did you were you aware of
01:38:43 firefighter did you were you aware of any other person being in the lobby area not at all can I explain here because the door is open from left to right yeah obviously there is no any flat there is
01:38:55 obviously there is no any flat there is a wall on a left hand side when you go to the lobby yeah so if when I open the window why weren't sorry when I opened the door door I see
01:39:06 sorry when I opened the door door I see a firefighter but on their settlement on the witness she gave she says she's an left-hand side of she said on the left-hand side of him but obviously when
01:39:17 left-hand side of him but obviously when I opened the door from left to right and if she was there I could be able to see her but I didn't see anybody what's
01:39:29 see her but I didn't see anybody what's important is that we get from you what you saw and heard so you've told us your door opens that's right and when you were looking out you didn't see anybody else at all other than that one
01:39:40 else at all other than that one firefighter I never seen anybody did you hear any other voices apart from that firefighters not at all and did you go any further than your
01:39:53 and did you go any further than your front door no will be the stop there already because the firefighter is in the lobby we are on our flat so it's a conversation so there is no point me to God did the firefighter come into your
01:40:04 God did the firefighter come into your flat at all no he didn't do you remember if the firefighter had torch I don't remember to be honest what he has in his what he had in his and
01:40:21 in your statement you've you've described the firefighter who's at your door as him do you remember if this firefighter was wearing a mask no no his
01:40:32 firefighter was wearing a mask no no his face identify identify him is a mom a male firefighter because there was no mask on his face because it was no there
01:40:43 mask on his face because it was no there was no smoke on the lobby so those what nose identify what he looked like Ivan so there was nothing covering his face at all no did he have a mask that was
01:40:55 at all no did he have a mask that was pulled down at all I don't remember which has got the mask pulled down or not but I remember his face but he's got helmet
01:41:09 and could you see him clearly yeah someone like anywhere this helmet and so
01:41:20 someone like anywhere this helmet and so was it easy to hear what the firefighter had to say to you of course is we're very close he's right in front of my front door so we have a really good
01:41:31 front door so we have a really good conversation and did the firefighter appear to understand what you were saying to him yes we have a good communication and and you've said that
01:41:42 communication and and you've said that there was a good conversation was that conversation just between you and the firefighter or was mr. n you involved in the conversation be honest he may probably have a conversation with before
01:41:53 probably have a conversation with before I arrived there it's a matter of seconds it's not really that long but my one I remember my one the conversation is
01:42:04 remember my one the conversation is because I was other time I was excited when I get a knock from that door the door because we were believing that we're gonna be rescued after you had
01:42:22 we're gonna be rescued after you had arrived at the door do you remember you have a memory of mr. n you saying anything to the firefighter I don't remember but I've seen his statement what he said but I'm not referring that
01:42:33 what he said but I'm not referring that I don't remember I personnel do you remember the firefighter asked you for any information no I've already said it you know I don't remember that but I was
01:42:44 you know I don't remember that but I was saying that how many of us are we are five there are three children and I hope you listened that and he understand our conversation was really no issue of like
01:42:57 conversation was really no issue of like communication language so we were communicating without any problem even even we are trying to explain I thought
01:43:08 even we are trying to explain I thought he's going to rescue us to be honest that stage and
01:43:15 shall I continually I just want to ask if you could just keep your voice up a little bit okay okay yeah but just to break down the detail of the conversation with this firefighter
01:43:26 conversation with this firefighter please you mentioned telling him how many people were in the flat yes oh do do you specifically mention children of course not one pose many times how many
01:43:39 course not one pose many times how many times did you do you remember telling this father I remember how many tests but many times I was not I can't say - two or three times but many times I mentioned about my children even after
01:43:54 mentioned about my children even after he lived I was thinking what can we did you did you specifically say that there
01:44:06 you did you specifically say that there were two children yes many things did you tell the firefighter that you were safe in your flat that's a took I'm
01:44:20 safe in your flat that's a took I'm sorry
01:44:22 sorry and did you hear mr. nu say anything like that to the firefighter no I told how come someone coming from the ledge of the window and desperate to live and say this we're safe with that
01:44:35 live and say this we're safe with that condition I've already been told by my friend Abraham what the condition is and he's been advising me to live and how
01:44:46 he's been advising me to live and how come I was going to say him that I didn't said it is no way in media near some concedes because I was a desperate to live did the firefighter give you any
01:45:00 to live did the firefighter give you any advice yes his normal advice to cover up the blanket by showing by showing in his body just cover up a whole hog could
01:45:12 body just cover up a whole hog could please you know the tool to block the smoke coming in and
01:45:21 I say the world no I thought they were controlling the fire because the way a word they say that you are safe you know he said that I remember and I try to
01:45:35 he said that I remember and I try to talk to him there were spiders possibly not Rascals and as Adam obviously we are not disabled if we are getting advice like other to get away town is a simple
01:45:51 equipment maybe for us as a time that is if we get that with that stage no matter the circumstance of this walk on the
01:46:02 the circumstance of this walk on the stairs are but as we did manage to escape earlier we could have a very good chance he escaped the fire the fireflies
01:46:13 chance he escaped the fire the fireflies told you to cover up was he and to block against leaks was he indicating any particular part of the flat you should just say you know anywhere it's a small
01:46:27 just say you know anywhere it's a small community just try to cover up whose blanket and you are safe he was bit relaxing even when he say that I thought he is controlling the fire what did he
01:46:38 he is controlling the fire what did he tell you anything about where the fire was no there's no any conversation about where the fire was they just told me just to you are safe and then doesn't go
01:46:55 just to you are safe and then doesn't go and after describing with this body to cover with blankets and all that but I tried to talk to him many times like
01:47:06 tried to talk to him many times like children children it's like I'm not here really begging but it's kind of digging
01:47:15 did you ask the firefighter anything about the progress of the file where the fire was no I didn't ask her progress of the fire because he already said to me you are safe
01:47:26 you are safe that word is Lilia you are safe it's not in your side the fire is on the other side and when he was referre saying to you the fire is on the other side yeah what did you understand
01:47:38 other side yeah what did you understand that to mean my understand is that is not gonna be any problem in our side and obviously the pewter fire brigade are
01:47:49 obviously the pewter fire brigade are controlling the fire and even after that conversation when I spoke to Abraham and I told him that he told us this oh did he say that he will say he is a bit
01:48:01 he say that he will say he is a bit reluctant I said okay if you say that no they are professional so there is no any thing that can say because there is hope already did the firefighters tell you
01:48:13 already did the firefighters tell you anything about what the conditions in the stairwell were like at this time no we haven't been discussed about the staircase the only thing we discussed the how to block the front door and to
01:48:26 the how to block the front door and to cover the letterbox and his advice was we are safe and that's it really and then the firefighter left did the
01:48:40 and then the firefighter left did the firefighter say anything about whether he would return no you didn't say you didn't return or anything it was a relaxed that window just went even when he went it was in my mind I was about to
01:48:52 he went it was in my mind I was about to talk to him that can he take one of my child but I didn't use that but he's like misses the time after he left I thought that and I was thinking if I was
01:49:05 thought that and I was thinking if I was asking that but it's already gone by that time but that was in my mind at that time did the firefighter say whether any other firefighters would come back to your flat no there was no
01:49:16 come back to your flat no there was no any discussion about any other firefighter
01:49:24 again I know it's difficult to estimate time but doing the best you can how long did this conversation with a firefighter last approximately three
01:49:38 firefighter last approximately three minutes it could be more or less but at least this is no twenty second is because of our English we're not really quick is not our first language English
01:49:49 quick is not our first language English how come we can complete a conversation within 20 second that's not true once the front door had been closed could you
01:50:02 the front door had been closed could you hear any noises from outside from the lobby area no did you hear any voices for example no voice no I know I'm not I
01:50:15 for example no voice no I know I'm not I didn't give any additional about the lobby area after that conversation shut the front door and we started focusing to cover the blanket to avoid the smoke
01:50:26 to cover the blanket to avoid the smoke coming from - the flood can I take you to paragraph 27 of your statement which is on page 8
01:50:41 now in this paragraph mr. Sekulow you're referring to further calls that you had with Abraham a baby and you give times for them at 205 to 1 1 and 230 again so
01:50:56 for them at 205 to 1 1 and 230 again so just we can have some help from you at the time did your contact with the firefighter happen before you had spoken before these calls to Mister obeyed with
01:51:08 before these calls to Mister obeyed with mr. a baby we already start talking mr. Babur from early after he escaped the fire so I cannot say the time this time
01:51:22 fire so I cannot say the time this time I still talk to him that time I will talk to him but why I remember after we finish talking with and taking advice from the firefighter I did talk to him
01:51:34 from the firefighter I did talk to him and I say to him well he told us I hope you remember that so we've already got you had a call with mr. BAE BAE at 149 which is the call when he'd left the
01:51:46 which is the call when he'd left the tower and now what you've put in this paragraph are three more calls and you've given times for them I'm just wondering if you can't help please tell me but just whether you can use those
01:51:59 me but just whether you can use those times to say whether it was before a particular call that you had the conversation with the firefighter you know at that time it's very difficult to say after or before he said it's very
01:52:10 say after or before he said it's very hard and worried about our life so I cannot say this or that and doing the best you can do you think you had you
01:52:21 best you can do you think you had you had conversations with mr. BAE BAE after you'd spoken to the firefighter I did 100% sure I did come for have a conversation after I spoke to the firefighter because I remember I told
01:52:34 firefighter because I remember I told him what he told us and what you also say in his paragraph is that mr. BAE BAE told you that you needed to get out did
01:52:45 told you that you needed to get out did he give you any other information about the progress of the fire he always always updating me the fire is going all the way up stating you Ivan I say to you need to
01:52:56 stating you Ivan I say to you need to tell me you know you may not worried because sometimes he may worried and he would not able to tell me what was happening but he was clearly explained to me how the fire spread all the way up
01:53:09 to me how the fire spread all the way up and how it was dangerous we go to page 9 please in paragraph 29 I won't read all
01:53:24 please in paragraph 29 I won't read all this out but this is a again it's just so that we can get the sequence of events right because in this paragraph you are describing that in your
01:53:36 you are describing that in your desperation you climbed out and sat on the window ledge in the lounge was this a second time that you went out onto the ledge no the second time was when the
01:53:50 ledge no the second time was when the neighbor skim from 1/5 - well can I pause it then and I'll come back to that then ask you so is this paragraph paragraph 29 referring to that first
01:54:03 paragraph 29 referring to that first time that you climbed out onto the ledge when just before the knock on the door yes that's the ones and before the lock of the door
01:54:18 what can we deal with the arrival of the neighbor from flat one five two please and that's a paragraph 32 of your statement so if we could have 31 and 32
01:54:34 statement so if we could have 31 and 32 on the same page please if we look at paragraph 31 you say that there was a
01:54:48 paragraph 31 you say that there was a another knock on the door and this time it was our neighbor from flat one five two with her three children she asked come in and we let her in she told us that the fire had now got into her
01:54:59 that the fire had now got into her kitchen she was shaking who let your neighbor into your flat oh goodness
01:55:08 goodness were you where were you at the time that they came in I think we may probably be in the living room but I'm not hundred percent sure ish we all have been in the living room at all times so we may
01:55:21 living room at all times so we may follow her in the corridor that I'm a firefighter came along that area but I cannot assure you where I was but along those places I was you've mentioned that she told you
01:55:39 I was you've mentioned that she told you that the fire had got into the kitchen did she tell you anything else about the fire no she said to me just a fire get
01:55:50 fire no she said to me just a fire get to her kitchen that's all I remember she said do you remember her mentioning the conditions in the lobby area at all we
01:56:03 conditions in the lobby area at all we haven't discussed anything we just talked about her kitchen and we start calling and looking as wealth escaping how and what to do we're not really any
01:56:16 how and what to do we're not really any discussion about lobby or anything I don't remember maybe discussion but I do remember Janette went and opened the door to let your neighbor in
01:56:27 your neighbor in didn't I tell you whether she'd noticed anything about conditions in the lobby area I don't remember did your neighbor from flat one five two
01:56:38 did your neighbor from flat one five two tell you she'd had any contact with firefighters or a firefighter no that was really we may talk we may not talk so I better to say I do remember in
01:56:56 so I better to say I do remember in paragraph 32 you mention a call that you made at 2:32 to 999 I want to show you
01:57:08 made at 2:32 to 999 I want to show you the transcript of that are you okay to look at the transcript yeah I'm okay and what I want to do if I may is just to take you to different parts of the transcript in order to ask you some
01:57:19 transcript in order to ask you some additional questions okay if we could please go to I WS four zeros 10:51 page 25 please
01:57:45 [Music]
01:57:48 we look at page 24 first of all so I just set the context for mr. Sekulow
01:57:57 yeah yeah this is the first page of a transcript of that core which is a next door exhibited to your statement and
01:58:09 door exhibited to your statement and just so that we can see it you see it did you see at the top where it says event and the last but one set of
01:58:23 event and the last but one set of numbers that we see which is OH - 30 - 30 gives us our time so that's 2/3 to the call tells us the call was made at 2:30 - yeah can I take
01:58:36 call was made at 2:30 - yeah can I take you to page 25 now we could expand the the top half of the page yeah
01:58:47 do you see that second line down the operator asks you mr. ticular how many of you are there in there and you then
01:58:59 of you are there in there and you then say my neighbor come in as well he is now and then you say five kids and for adults so if my maths is right that means that by the time you made this
01:59:11 means that by the time you made this call there was yourself and your partner mr. n you and the neighbor from flat 152 in your flat wasn't there yeah including my children yes and then
01:59:22 yeah including my children yes and then and then your children and her three children yes by the way before this I did call at two or seven the call is missed and can I interrupt you but what
01:59:36 missed and can I interrupt you but what I'll do is I'll go back to the 207 call in a moment if I okay okay again if we have perhaps the the whole page or just scroll down a little bit on the page
01:59:50 pause there what the operator asks you is can you get out at all y'all prevent the answer is inaudible but the operator then says can you get out onto the landing and you respond no
02:00:02 out onto the landing and you respond no we cannot get out and the operator then says have you got a balcony no and you respond the balcony is inaudible smoke
02:00:14 respond the balcony is inaudible smoke and the operator responds full of smoke is it alright we'll let them know but the fires coming inside your flat yeah now when you mentioned balcony there or
02:00:26 now when you mentioned balcony there or the reference to balcony do you know what you were saying was you because your answers balcony is inaudible smoke what were you referring to when you use the word balcony does that tell me we
02:00:38 the word balcony does that tell me we were all panicked even when I remember they were when I listened the audio of this there was screaming and was saying horrible Pelt so I don't remember what try I tried to
02:00:49 so I don't remember what try I tried to say but I tried to put more important what this is like I know there are kids around how many we are so I may think that when I say balcony maybe is my
02:01:01 that when I say balcony maybe is my window you know where I sit it is they may be related with that but I don't know man I'm not sure what I said but it looks like that maybe see I can say yes
02:01:12 looks like that maybe see I can say yes or no say you think it's it's possibly a reference to the outside yes and if you were you were referring to balcony it was what it was the window ledge where
02:01:24 was what it was the window ledge where you'd sad yes
02:01:27 but do you have a memory of what of when you're sat at the window ledge of smoke no I only remember there was a Deborah's coming down from other side you know the
02:01:40 coming down from other side you know the window brought it that's what I remember that was are you talking about the second time or the first time well let's take it on the first time so if the balconies are reference to the window
02:01:52 balconies are reference to the window ledge do you remember seeing smoke when you were sitting on the window ledge for the first time no the first time there was no smoke or anything I'll come back to the second time but I
02:02:04 I'll come back to the second time but I made sure to ask you about what you saw at the time then you mentioned and if we scroll down again on the page you've
02:02:15 scroll down again on the page you've already mentioned this but you can see there where the operator says get yourselves into a room that has not got the safest room that you can go to and you then say debris is coming down
02:02:28 where were you seeing that from from through the window and but the window of which room was in that what I think you
02:02:40 which room was in that what I think you can see from from all the window side where we are in the living room all all four so the windows on the south and the windows on the west yeah but I remember
02:02:52 windows on the west yeah but I remember it is so one in the West and can you describe the debris that you were seeing coming around different sides of the breeze small kind of medium the all
02:03:05 breeze small kind of medium the all kinds of Dervis and was there anything about it that you you noticed other than its size you guys like blackish I
02:03:18 its size you guys like blackish I remember something otherwise that's already I can't really say anything can we now just put side by side then pages 24 and 25 please
02:03:54 if I take it I thinks 14 lines down but there's a on page 24 there is a point where the operator says you've just told
02:04:06 where the operator says you've just told the operator your flat number in your floor and the operator says 18th floor and what is happening and you respond the smoke is coming out on the other side and it's inaudible you're asked is
02:04:19 side and it's inaudible you're asked is it coming into your flat and you say yeah but with the window I can see the window so is it coming in the window did you say and you answer yet and then the operator says okay can you have you got
02:04:32 operator says okay can you have you got the window shut and then it's recorded that this is crying the operator says have you got the window shut have you got the window shut and you say no the window didn't shut and it's inaudible
02:04:44 window didn't shut and it's inaudible the operator says okay is it just smoke coming in hello you respond hello you're asked again is though you're then asked is it just is there any fire coming in and you say yes there's fire next door
02:04:57 and you say yes there's fire next door inaudible coming for us now and you're asked know is there any fire in your flat is there a fire in your flat and you respond yes yes in our flat yes and
02:05:08 you respond yes yes in our flat yes and the operator says this says what a fire or smoke and over the next page you say yes it's fire it's fire and if we go a
02:05:24 yes it's fire it's fire and if we go a little further down at the bottom of page 25 the operator later on call asks you where is the fire in your flat and you say the fire is in the bedroom where
02:05:36 you say the fire is in the bedroom where is it and then you say it is you know what it and there's a reference to 154 and the Opera says and 115 your flat that's on fire now and you respond no
02:05:49 that's on fire now and you respond no it's 1 5 4 is they come to us that's quite a big chunk of reading I've done there but if I can just try with keeping that all in mind just to ask you it's just some questions about what you
02:06:01 just some questions about what you remember of what was going on at the time at that time that you made this call which is 232 can you remember smoke actually coming into your flat I know at that time the our neighbor was moved to
02:06:14 that time the our neighbor was moved to our flat obviously I say there are five kids and for adults and the composition we made with her that there is a smoke
02:06:25 we made with her that there is a smoke coming to the kitchen and later on when we see the outside the windows through the door through the window of the one
02:06:39 the door through the window of the one through the window of the bedroom close to the one five two by the way one five four is I had ended by mistake I now know that is one five two but what I
02:06:51 know that is one five two but what I tried to say is like one five two it was one five three and referring one five two I know that that's what I tried to say and so when I see on the bedroom and
02:07:05 say and so when I see on the bedroom and a fire is like coming to us so that's what I was trying to refer but sometimes if you listen the voice
02:07:16 but sometimes if you listen the voice they were no ground there are a lot of things going on so all the conversation we made is like that so any
02:07:28 we made is like that so any that's very helpful can I just again just try and take it if you look down a little bit so I'll ask you about one five two in a moment was there any smoke actually coming into
02:07:41 was there any smoke actually coming into your flat at this point no I don't remember this monk do you remember any flames coming into your flat at this before the flame is not all flood but is closed so I saw while I was watching
02:07:54 closed so I saw while I was watching opening the my world where I see through the bedroom window I saw a flame coming from the 150 so you went to a bedroom
02:08:05 from the 150 so you went to a bedroom window and we can look at the plan again if you want of it is that was that the bedroom that was closest to 1/5 - yeah and you looked out of that window and what did you see what did you see was going on in 1/5 -
02:08:17 what did you see was going on in 1/5 - you know the SFM orange flame is coming and could you see smoke to be honest the smoke
02:08:28 smoke I do remember a smoke yeah it's a little bit smoke I kind of I can say yes or no so I'm not sure is better well I know record is better to say what could you
02:08:40 record is better to say what could you see if the flames what color was oranges really are still in I can see in my mind the shape of this flame is pure flame with orange you know proper orange color
02:08:51 with orange you know proper orange color it's in my mind better minutes and when you're referring there we can still see it at the bottom of page 25 the fire is in the bedroom yeah what were you
02:09:03 in the bedroom yeah what were you referring there to fire coming towards the bedroom that yeah in in your flat or to a location in flat 1/5 - yeah the location - the fire ferrets - which is
02:09:16 location - the fire ferrets - which is is getting into us anyway basically so that's why I'm the parent nothing but other time the conversation with panic you know you say anything what you want but obviously we are trying to put the
02:09:29 but obviously we are trying to put the point you know so
02:09:34 and mr. Oh forgive my interrupting but I take it you've got a few more questions I did I'm just wondering whether mr. Takei should have a break and we can do
02:09:45 Takei should have a break and we can do it now that's not a problem you can continue would you like a break now if you have issue it if you want to have a few more questions I don't mind if you want well it's up to you I'm coming to
02:10:02 want well it's up to you I'm coming to what will be I think a convenient break so if I could just ask a couple more questions or that should be I hope let me take you to page 26 which is the last
02:10:15 me take you to page 26 which is the last page of this transcript and if you see
02:10:26 page of this transcript and if you see four lines down where the operator says okay it's just coming now okay then we'll get someone to you as soon as possible okay we'll get to you as soon as possible and
02:10:37 we'll get to you as soon as possible and then the operator says ring us back if it gets worse and further down get yourself in a room where the least smoke is get to a room where the least smoke is um that was advice you were being
02:10:53 is um that was advice you were being given at the end of that call what did you do in response to that advice I
02:11:04 don't know if I'm better than I've been advised that as that then you had gone to you just told us you what you've gone
02:11:15 to you just told us you what you've gone to your bedroom to look out yeah did you after you made this call did you move anywhere else within the flat know we always on the living room just we went there to this house because to see
02:11:30 went there to this house because to see a fire coming from the side south so we were on the farthest from the fire was the living room so that's where we all
02:11:41 the living room so that's where we all are
02:11:41 are there and what I hope might be the last question on this day but when you looked out of the bedroom window yeah which is the bedroom next door to flat one five two could you have a view of the window
02:11:54 two could you have a view of the window of the next bedroom the bedroom in one five two itself I don't remember but because I don't remember but I remember we had the window of the bedroom but I
02:12:10 we had the window of the bedroom but I don't know which stage but we managed through shadow in the Bella door remember when when you were looking out could you tell which part of one five two the flames might be coming from so
02:12:21 two the flames might be coming from so only thing I saw the orange for them coming and that is in deviant point yes mister techne I think we'll have a short break okay as I said to you last time
02:12:32 break okay as I said to you last time please don't talk to anyone about your evidence you like to go to the ocean now we'll we'll come back and resume at ten past twelve that's right thank you very much
02:12:49 all right ten past twelve please
02:20:09 you
02:21:03 all right mr. tickly yeah I'm finally happy to carry on yes thank you very much thank you too mr. chairman and thank you mr. settling for coming back and killed i you referred earlier in
02:21:19 and killed i you referred earlier in your evidence to the 207 call that you made and in Venice to you I I said I would come back to it and let's do it now
02:21:27 now okay can we have please page 5 of your statement and we look at paragraph 18 please
02:21:47 this is a call that you was made to 999 but which there isn't an audio recording and therefore there isn't a transcript but you've been able to give a time for
02:21:59 but you've been able to give a time for it because it was made from geneticist phone that right yeah and if we look at the bottom you say and this was the first call that you recall making to 999
02:22:10 first call that you recall making to 999 wasn't it no what I try to say there is as depend on if I have a chance to listen that call I could have been known
02:22:22 listen that call I could have been known if I make a call earlier than this or not but unfortunately this call has not been I've been told it has not been connected to fire forget I wonder why it
02:22:38 connected to fire forget I wonder why it has a duration of 3 minutes and 49 seconds is quite long and I've been told that it's only the beat is only kept the record for 90 days on this disaster I
02:22:50 record for 90 days on this disaster I don't know why the police not kept this and I also remember when he had a meeting in Olympia with senior police
02:23:01 meeting in Olympia with senior police investigator matt bourne and the commandercool a remember the same as there has been over 600 call and they will say that those all call have been
02:23:12 will say that those all call have been hurt but I don't know this call had been included on that or not well let's can I just focus on this call okay what you've been told about the
02:23:24 okay what you've been told about the audio is that or this call the information you've been given I'm going to ask you what you remember about the call in a moment but just just to be clear the information that you've been
02:23:35 clear the information that you've been given is that the call was one that did not connect to the fire brigade that's why I've been told but I've a good me more of a conversation saying that we
02:23:48 more of a conversation saying that we are dealing with it and all the conversation the reason why I say that of before or after I have already been spoken
02:23:57 spoken with no anyone apart from this this call in English so when I was talking to Abraham over the phone it was all in
02:24:09 Abraham over the phone it was all in Amharic so that conversation is I remember it has been say that but I don't know why with this disaster at the police and the pity doesn't kept it for
02:24:20 police and the pity doesn't kept it for that look as I said just about what what your recollection of the conversation was but and what you've been told is that the the audio recording wasn't
02:24:32 that the the audio recording wasn't retained is that right yes well let's go then to your recollection of this call and you've set out some of that mâche my
02:24:44 and you've set out some of that mâche my memory was that was that I was told that the London Fire Brigade were dealing with fire at Granville Tower and for us to stay where we were I have a clear memory that the English words were dealing we clear memory that the
02:24:55 were dealing we clear memory that the English words were dealing were used as I was speaking to the emergency services in English throughout my dealings with them so just firstly do you is it your
02:25:07 them so just firstly do you is it your recollection and your evidence that you spoke to someone from the fire brigade it could be a fire brigade if it could be bt I don't know anything but I
02:25:18 be bt I don't know anything but I remember I was talking about the fire and I've been said that we're dealing I was confide oh no before that the BT is connecting to a fire brigade as far as I
02:25:30 connecting to a fire brigade as far as I know when we call nine nine you asked fire brigade you connect straight away so I don't know is fire fire gate I can't say to you which one but the only
02:25:41 can't say to you which one but the only thing I remember is we're dealing and
02:25:48 you say they're in the part that you were told for us to stay where we work and you can you remember what advice specifically you were given the fire brigades are dealing with it that's all
02:26:02 brigades are dealing with it that's all I remember well you told to lock up any windows to be honest to do even on previously when
02:26:14 be honest to do even on previously when we talk about the previous code so some of the things are not sure so I don't say that or this the only thing I remember is we're dealing and again if
02:26:33 remember is we're dealing and again if we can try and fix this call in the sequence of events that happened in your flat
02:26:38 flat was this before you climbed out onto the ledge for the first time that you made this call yeah I was thinking even
02:26:51 this call yeah I was thinking even myself when I read my statement is it before or after
02:26:57 so I cannot assure you either before or after but the only thing I'll say maybe before but I'm not hundred percent sure
02:27:08 before but I'm not hundred percent sure or after so I would say I'm not sure and was it can you help us with whether it was before or after that firefighter came to your door it must be before I
02:27:20 came to your door it must be before I don't know to be honest I try to figure out that so because there's the sequence it must be before but obviously I can't
02:27:34 it must be before but obviously I can't say 100% but it sounds like before not her possession
02:27:47 can we move on - just another topic and that's the exchange of calls that you had with Essex Fire and Rescue and in your statement you've gone through the
02:27:59 your statement you've gone through the exchange of calls with that fire service I'd like again to just look at some of the transcripts of those calls to just ask you some additional questions could we go first to page 27 in your
02:28:14 could we go first to page 27 in your statements at iws for zeroes 1050 127
02:28:27 this is the first page mr. tech layin and just to help everyone in the room we the reference at the top gives us the time of the core so just before the word
02:28:38 time of the core so just before the word essex in that reference there is the number o 251 double zero so that tells us it's a core made at 251 but if I ask you please just to go to the next page
02:29:00 if we could just expand the top part of it
02:29:09 when the operator answers you tell them that you're in flat 1 5 3 yeah you see that and then the operator says hello there you're in one fight free and you
02:29:20 there you're in one fight free and you then say yes Grenfell tower the fire is all over our house and there are then several inaudible words and what did you mean by saying fire is all over our house obviously when I say that means it
02:29:38 house obviously when I say that means it has been really very late for us what other time I was thinking and we've been surrounded by fire all our flat so I try
02:29:54 surrounded by fire all our flat so I try to explain to him the situation and that's it rainy weather at the time that you made this call whether there was any
02:30:06 you made this call whether there was any fire coming actually coming into your flat the only thing I remember is like I said to you earlier the fired orange flame comes from the one-five to the
02:30:24 flame comes from the one-five to the operator then asks you are you able to get to an emergency exit and you say no there's no it's full of smoke there's a
02:30:35 there's no it's full of smoke there's a fire you seem to be giving that answer and responsible questions to an emergency exit were you referring to an emergency exit in your answer obviously
02:30:48 emergency exit in your answer obviously the emergency exit is it's the fire exit and is that the stairwell yeah and but as Adam when I say this module sixth it
02:31:01 as Adam when I say this module sixth it could be my front robots could common sense Lee when we say emergency exit as you pointed out it's later in time it's now 251 you had you at any time gone to
02:31:13 now 251 you had you at any time gone to look to see what the conditions were like in the lobby no I have a open the door remember I'm opening the door
02:31:24 how what information did you have that the emergency exit was full of smoke I think that may be one of the conversation or make with Robbie I'm not
02:31:35 conversation or make with Robbie I'm not 100% sure see everything was miss but I must get that information somewhere so
02:31:50 so you don't have a recollection at about this time of anyone having gone out and opened your front door to look at what was going on outside I don't know to be honest but maybe
02:32:03 I don't know to be honest but maybe someone did this but I remember I do this you didn't know I didn't open the door I was only focusing how I skipped by the window I believe was Sergeant
02:32:15 by the window I believe was Sergeant Kerry ops my believe was this is impossible to get out by the lobby so I'm ever what was it that made you believe it was impossible to get out by
02:32:26 believe it was impossible to get out by the lobby obviously because of the smoke because the lady comes because of next flat was on fire
02:32:38 flat was on fire the next flat was on fire
02:32:45 and we are passing through that to the fire exit if we go down to the bottom of that page the operator say asks you have
02:32:58 that page the operator say asks you have you got anything even put in front of the door like a blanket or anything to stop the smoke coming in and you say yeah yeah but the smoke is coming in from the outside what was that a reference to yeah I think as that stage
02:33:11 reference to yeah I think as that stage I remember cannot went to the kitchen and she told us that smoke coming from the kitchen I remember that but I don't
02:33:23 the kitchen I remember that but I don't know which stage but this is I think I'm it must be that one and so did she didn't I tell you how the smoke was that
02:33:34 didn't I tell you how the smoke was that smoke was actually getting into your kitchen so that's what she said to me and how is it getting into your kitchen you see we are surrounded by fire both sides comes one Thrones house and from
02:33:47 sides comes one Thrones house and from the other side and was there any smoke as far as you are air was any smoke coming in through your closed front door
02:34:00 we were where we all were in their living room well if we go please to the
02:34:11 living room well if we go please to the next page 29
02:34:22 if we expand the bottom two-thirds of it can you see mr. tech lay that there's a
02:34:34 point where the operator says smokes coming from the windows outside is it and you say yes but next flat is full of smoke which flat were you referring to year Fulton little further down if the
02:34:51 year Fulton little further down if the operator says if their smoke coming from the window then obviously don't open that window and your front door you're unable to get out of there are you and you respond no no not at all not at all
02:35:06 and what was so we can be clear what was it about the front door that led you to think that you couldn't get out through the front door obviously if the neighbor
02:35:19 the front door obviously if the neighbor who comes to our flat because her father lattice on fire so when we go if we are trying to go to the fire exit we have to
02:35:32 trying to go to the fire exit we have to pass her flat I think that is one of the reason I won't put it up of what the
02:35:43 reason I won't put it up of what the operator from Essex Fire & Rescue says at the end of the court is that they'll pass it through to London and can I just so that we get the sequence just take you to page 31 in your statement now
02:35:59 you to page 31 in your statement now this is a transcript of a voice message left on your phone by Essex Fire & Rescue and you're able to give a time for that call at OU 254 and if we go to
02:36:14 for that call at OU 254 and if we go to the next page we can see what message is left yeah
02:36:20 we just expand the bottom please and in summary Essex fire service say they spoke to you earlier have spoken to
02:36:33 spoke to you earlier have spoken to London and you should make every effort possible to get out of the building and go to your nearest fire exit but is it right mr. Taylor you you didn't listen to that voice message until after you'd
02:36:44 to that voice message until after you'd left the tower yes if you see on previous one I got his missing call number zero one
02:36:55 I got his missing call number zero one six and I called that number and that's how I haven't had the time to listen this voicemail can I take you then to
02:37:09 this voicemail can I take you then to page 33 which is the next time that you speak to someone from Essex Fire Rescue
02:37:23 speak to someone from Essex Fire Rescue Service now on that there is a time given of it from of 213 12 hours but in your statement you've explained that
02:37:35 your statement you've explained that it's a 256 that your belief is that it's a 256 is that right yeah I think this is wrong from the transcript when they did so the time the time is corrected so I
02:37:49 so the time the time is corrected so I just take what I've been told always
02:37:54 well you must be right in that because if we look at the next page if we look at the top of page 34 the operator says
02:38:11 at the top of page 34 the operator says it's the fire service here I've spoken to London Fire and so it would make sense that it was after they had first spoken to you wouldn't it yes yes it makes sense here what the reason for us putting these two pages up on the screen
02:38:23 putting these two pages up on the screen is just to ask you again some additional questions if we look at the bottom you've said to the operator the
02:38:35 you've said to the operator the operators asked you how many people are with you and you say it's about four adults and five children so everybody's still in the flat aren't they yes and where were you all at the time of this
02:38:47 where were you all at the time of this call can you remember which one I'm in the face
02:38:52 the face this is you call it 256 we are all in the living room and after we get advice
02:39:05 the living room and after we get advice make your way to the fire exit get away tower at that time we moved we moved to the corridor close to the front door to get away thought and again just so that
02:39:20 get away thought and again just so that we can be clear at the bottom the operator asks you bottom of page to page 34 for the record as the fire calm down
02:39:33 34 for the record as the fire calm down at all or is it still entering your property now and on the next page you say it's very close now yeah my neighbor is looking for us again at that time was
02:39:48 is looking for us again at that time was there any smoke coming into your flat I mentioned it before the smoke according to Canon told me from the kitchen so we
02:40:01 to Canon told me from the kitchen so we already moved to the corridor try to get out at gate rate our service so I would say the smoke was coming earlier from the kitchen was there as any smoke
02:40:15 the kitchen was there as any smoke coming into the bedrooms from the bedroom
02:40:20 bedroom like I said is orange orange flame I remember I think that's what I remember and no flames coming into your flat at
02:40:32 and no flames coming into your flat at this time yeah I'm not sure about that remember you refer on page 35 and what
02:40:49 remember you refer on page 35 and what the operator tells you is if you can get out of the building then we would advise you to do so so if you can get everyone together stay together and just check outside your front door first just to
02:41:00 outside your front door first just to make sure you're not putting yourself and then I think you say yeah and then the operator says sorry you don't know what sorry and you respond no the front door we have it's full of smoke and fire
02:41:13 door we have it's full of smoke and fire aside from what you told us earlier about the information you think you might have got from Robbie Yahya at about this time had you checked yourself to see what the conditions were like outside your flat in the lobby area at
02:41:27 outside your flat in the lobby area at that time you know we all panic so I cannot recall anything even I was not sure like I said before talking in Sarabia but that information comes from
02:41:39 Sarabia but that information comes from her but I'm not sure to be honest but it must be somewhere because at the very bottom of the page you asked okay but
02:41:53 bottom of the page you asked okay but it's and then there's inaudible and can jump and the operator says you won't be able to jump from the floor you're on the 18th floor aren't you yeah yeah there is no chance no you respond and
02:42:06 there is no chance no you respond and then the operator on the next page says yeah so yeah do not jump from the 18th floor okay we will try and get them to you as soon as possible ok now you told
02:42:19 you as soon as possible ok now you told us that you had climbed onto the ledge once already and you're asking here about jumping from the 18th floor did
02:42:30 about jumping from the 18th floor did you go out onto the ledge a second time
02:42:35 not at that stage when I was talking I think before I spoke to a sex firefighter
02:42:45 fabricate our hours on the second time was before that
02:43:01 could I have police up on the screen I WS five zeros 847 page eight
02:43:44 thank you sorry miss mr. Tecla if I just explained that this is a page from the inquiry witness statement of Abraham a baby and that segment has already been
02:43:55 baby and that segment has already been read into the record if I draw the paragraph 22 is the first paragraph I wanted to draw your attention to and it in there mr. baby is talking about his
02:44:07 in there mr. baby is talking about his telephone contact with you and he pick it up from the bit where he says I I applaud powerless to find a firefighter
02:44:20 applaud powerless to find a firefighter assuming that there must be some firefighters by now on the 18th floor Carlos hung up telling me he would try and find a firefighter he phoned me back shortly afterwards and said that he had
02:44:31 shortly afterwards and said that he had spoken to a firefighter and that the firefighter told him to remain in their flat in other words to stay put so it would seem that that you had that call
02:44:43 would seem that that you had that call after that first contact with the firefighter that I've asked you about which isn't it yep but if we go down to the next paragraph please
02:44:58 here mr. baby says I spoke by telephone again to my friend Paulus who was stuck on the 18th floor he told me that his neighbors had come into his flat he told me that he was going to jump from the
02:45:09 me that he was going to jump from the tower with and you're that's a reference your son in his arms I begged him not to jump I pleaded with him he told me that the fire was coming from all sides and basically that their predicament was
02:45:20 basically that their predicament was hopeless I could see at this time the fire had spread around and down the sides of the tower power loss hung up the telephone I now understand from powerless his wife that he was standing
02:45:33 powerless his wife that he was standing on the window ledge of his flat preparing to jump when a firefighter knocked on the door of the flat so mr. a Beibei recalls two calls with you so the
02:45:48 Beibei recalls two calls with you so the first one is when you've told him that you've spoken to a firefighter who's told you to stay in the flat and the second one refers to you being on the ledge and preparing to jump when a
02:45:59 ledge and preparing to jump when a firefighter knocked on the door of the flat does that help you at all in firstly saying how many times you sat on the ledge how many times do you remember
02:46:10 the ledge how many times do you remember climbing onto the ledge to terms and you've already told us about the first time yeah so again looking at that power
02:46:22 time yeah so again looking at that power off does that help you to say when the second time was yeah as I said the second time we went the family from 1-5 2 moved to our flat so is mr. Bay Bay
02:46:36 2 moved to our flat so is mr. Bay Bay wrong about the reference that you were on the window ledge when a firefighter knocked on the door of the flat I think his mission about the first one
02:46:51 if we go back then to the Cana mission something here of course see our own talk lock when we've been told to leave
02:47:04 talk lock when we've been told to leave to stay the same time the floor above us 19th floor we've been they've been told the same that time you know where we are in the
02:47:16 that time you know where we are in the bins advise to stay there are the flood above us they've been rescued I think I don't know why that happened I feel like
02:47:29 don't know why that happened I feel like that is a pick and choose what was that something that you learnt about afterwards yes well can I just take you back to your transcript of your core that we
02:47:40 your transcript of your core that we were looking at because I want to you this is another core that you've had with Essex Fire & Rescue and I just want to be clear get your evidence clear as to what you did in response to that core
02:47:51 to what you did in response to that core okay so if we go please to page 13 sorry
02:48:02 okay so if we go please to page 13 sorry if we go please to paragraph page 11 in your statement and paragraph 39 please
02:48:18 good you've now had a call a natural conversation which you've put at 256 with Essex Fire & Rescue this is the transcript that we were looking at a
02:48:29 transcript that we were looking at a moment ago what did you then start to do having finished that call we start preparing our service because he told us
02:48:41 preparing our service because he told us to get a wet towel and make your way to the fire exit we know that there is no any choice so can attend me we started preparing to
02:48:52 so can attend me we started preparing to ready to get a wet hour and we moved through the bedroom which is close to the front door and she I remember she gets some thoughts from the cupboard but
02:49:08 gets some thoughts from the cupboard but I was not enough so we gets it from the page on the bed there is the storage on the bottom we lift the up masterís and
02:49:21 the bottom we lift the up masterís and you go to storage so I remember I helped her open in that bed and start getting wet out for everybody
02:49:30 the after that call from Essex Fire and Rescue there was a last call which was from an operator in the London Fire
02:49:41 from an operator in the London Fire Brigade we look at page 37 of your statement please the time of that call is 302 1503 or 2:35 forgive me and I
02:49:56 is 302 1503 or 2:35 forgive me and I don't need to go to the detail of it but in short the operator told you to get out of the flat to be honest I've already advised by a sex fire service
02:50:07 already advised by a sex fire service operator so I don't remember even I had a conversation with that because we all were panicking and preparing our service
02:50:18 were panicking and preparing our service to get away thought so I've been told later that the conversation with the at this time so I don't totally remember do you
02:50:30 so I don't totally remember do you remember receiving a call slightly but to be honest we were already preparing because the advice is already get from a 6'5 hunter but and this time I really
02:50:43 6'5 hunter but and this time I really like to thank the Russ white I now know who is green an effort to contact London Fire Brigade and to call us back he normal phone number left has
02:50:54 us back he normal phone number left has a voicemail steady really good so I think we only get help is his advices as well change life so a leg thank Russ white if you
02:51:05 life so a leg thank Russ white if you see me today thank you on the basis you can't remember this call can you using
02:51:16 can't remember this call can you using your Last Call with Essex as a reference point can you remember how soon after that call ended that you made yes I just leave your flat immediately he that will make you away so immediately after that
02:51:29 make you away so immediately after that it's no really time that's why we moved to the bedroom and the corridor can we go back then to your statement page
02:51:40 go back then to your statement page twelve and look at paragraphs 40 and 41
02:51:54 in these parts of your statement you put mr. nu at the door with a wet bed sheet and just so we can get who opened the front door after we all get wet out he
02:52:11 front door after we all get wet out he was on the front the two children from or anywhere then mom and I was behind so
02:52:23 or anywhere then mom and I was behind so the way we stand is like all of us preparing to get out so at that stage when we are about to live he was close
02:52:34 when we are about to live he was close to the front door but do you remember which one of the part which one of you opened the front door was it he's the
02:52:45 opened the front door was it he's the one who opened if you don't know even we told him not to open the window but the door and when the door was open could you see out into the the lobby area
02:52:58 you see out into the the lobby area yeah with him don't open don't open because Kenneth she didn't have weight tall honor but he was panicking and when I say tumor don't open don't
02:53:09 and when I say tumor don't open don't open he was saying he was thinking that saying which one he took which one want me to take which one will take he say to me and all of sudden we saw a fireman there and I gave Lucas my sorry my son
02:53:25 there and I gave Lucas my sorry my son they young my younger son to hold and to take it because we were panic we don't know what we're doing it was and myself my youngest son
02:53:37 it was and myself my youngest son doesn't want to go with him he cried I remember his or he say I don't want to go keep saying yeah you keep saying
02:53:51 go keep saying yeah you keep saying insisting that which one you think which wanna take is no time to think
02:54:00 I want to ask you in a moment about the firefighter that you saw yeah but can you help us at all with once that door was open what you noticed about the
02:54:11 was open what you noticed about the conditions in the lobby area it's more coming already what kind of smoke was coming I cannot say what color or anything but I remember the alarm going
02:54:23 anything but I remember the alarm going off like I say previously is there no this not allowed is like you told us you
02:54:34 this not allowed is like you told us you had two alarms one in the hallway one in the urchin which alarm was set off the one close to the front door and although
02:54:45 one close to the front door and although you you can't say very much about the smoke do you remember where they had any effect on you when it came into the flat
02:54:53 you see we were moving around to go to the bathroom get away coward no we are making get everyone to get to at all so
02:55:05 making get everyone to get to at all so I don't notice anything but the only thing the fireman was standing being on the left hand side and watching all this drama what we were doing and the best we
02:55:20 drama what we were doing and the best we didn't know if we've been told properly we could tie the weight on we just say get away thought so get away thought but because of the panic would not have time
02:55:32 because of the panic would not have time to think properly so we all get better all and with hole in the bedsheet and make our way but he was there I wonder
02:55:44 make our way but he was there I wonder whether if we show you a plan you might be able to tell us where you saw this firefighter yeah and we have a meaty triple zero one two five nine three plays and page 12
02:56:01 and weeks can we expand that that's bus with I I'd like this is a communal Lobby and flat three please
02:56:18 just before I asked you to indicate where you first saw the firefighter mr. Technic can I ask you this what had happened to the lights in your property by then there's no issues lights whole
02:56:31 by then there's no issues lights whole light was working properly until we left the flood and what was the lighting like therefore on your hallway obviously the hallways dark but we get
02:56:42 obviously the hallways dark but we get light from our flood to which I will be able to see the fireman and the lobby in front of the front door so I may have confused by the use of the word hallway
02:56:53 confused by the use of the word hallway I mean meant the hallway of your flat I'm sorry the lighting like in the hallway of your flat there was light in the flood that's what we've been using from early when we got those lights or
02:57:06 from early when we got those lights or so and when you open the the door we could see that you know you'd face as you said earlier Oh a wall yeah did you have any sense of the temperature on the
02:57:18 have any sense of the temperature on the landing be honest I don't notice any of that things I was thinking how I save my son my family and I don't really notice or temperature in the smell smoke I
02:57:31 or temperature in the smell smoke I remember as a smoke but were the smell and temperature I don't know where was the fire fight when you first saw the fruit of the flood thorald or standing
02:57:42 fruit of the flood thorald or standing in front of the front door yeah and can you describe the firefighter at all I don't know I can't describe it I don't remember what he looked like but and
02:57:54 remember what he looked like but and then the firefighter with gear was full of gear with man tall he or she told Shores is full of cool covered up so I
02:58:06 Shores is full of cool covered up so I don't know what he look like did the firefighter have anything over his or her face everything full of full of he's got the PA I learned it from here when I attended see do you have a
02:58:18 here when I attended see do you have a clear memory of the firefighter wearing British breathing apparatus yes breathing apparatus here
02:58:29 did the firefighter say anything to you no he didn't have any conversation to say anything but once we were really
02:58:40 say anything but once we were really panicking you know look us mysurvey youngest son doesn't wanna go with him he was rolling on the floor crying I don't want to go so the man is assisting
02:58:54 don't want to go so the man is assisting me which one you wanna take which one I take again I know my youngest and doesn't won't go with him so I gave my son and while he was
02:59:07 so I gave my son and while he was standing the man who heard my young old son went first then the children with
02:59:18 son went first then the children with the man behind than me after but Kenneth was slightly behind without any way thought because no time were all panic
02:59:30 thought because no time were all panic by that stage the firefighter was behind us and while we reached through the fire exist where the staircases he moved to
02:59:42 exist where the staircases he moved to the right corner to the right corner of the the right corner of the stairs and the only thing I don't remember is I
02:59:53 the only thing I don't remember is I don't know hope and fire exists but the fire exit was open if I enough line up so he showed us the torch to the
03:00:04 so he showed us the torch to the staircase and said really after that his dense smoke not see each other we don't
03:00:18 dense smoke not see each other we don't know what happened for all every of us I went out when I was holding my son Isaac while my sodomizer my younger son obviously I've got away
03:00:31 my younger son obviously I've got away tower and I hold the weight hall for him too and are holding the way you look me like this with a weight out when I walk down as after some steps I
03:00:48 when I walk down as after some steps I fall down and because I was on the wall side notes up so when I fall down I really don't want to hurt him because it
03:00:59 really don't want to hurt him because it is in his head side so I turn my shoulder to the right and I have it where I did either for a while I was
03:01:10 where I did either for a while I was unconscious when I will know myself I realize where I was and I try to get up
03:01:28 realize where I was and I try to get up but couldn't so I start walking slide so when I said I think I reached to the
03:01:40 when I said I think I reached to the landing to go to the next staircase and I turn just sliding myself go to the next and after one or two level maybe
03:01:53 next and after one or two level maybe one level I'm I need to get to the side of the hundred which really saves me to work on the side when I fall down my
03:02:05 work on the side when I fall down my weight out is for because we haven't been advised to tie after that I remember after a certain floor test the
03:02:19 remember after a certain floor test the smoke was very very dense it's like a force pushing you back so our not able to get it I attempt to
03:02:31 so our not able to get it I attempt to go up but I couldn't because I was sliding then couldn't breathe so the nearly falling back and I don't know
03:02:49 nearly falling back and I don't know where it comes from my stick told me to take Lucas's without which I kept holding it all the time so I take some relief by taking out his weight all from
03:03:02 relief by taking out his weight all from him and put it in my mouth and put it back to him and I get relief and going back I turns out a few times then I went all the way up to major in whatever I
03:03:17 all the way up to major in whatever I don't remember what floor isolate how do you myself can I just ask you just to take you back a little bit you've described that one
03:03:32 a little bit you've described that one firefighter that you saw when you coming out of your flat yes you see any other firefighters in the lobby area at all to be honest I only see one firefighter that happens in anybody we are always way behind there may be
03:03:46 we are always way behind there may be one in the fraud but like I said is very very dark you don't see anything even from early stage we've been using our flat light to be able to see the lobby
03:04:01 flat light to be able to see the lobby so I didn't see anything even when he used the torch to show us the stairs the short because of the smoke and darkness
03:04:13 short because of the smoke and darkness is not that strong the light you've explained that the the firefighter was using the torch - yeah and standing by the stairwell door yeah can you just if
03:04:26 the stairwell door yeah can you just if you stand up are you able to indicate where the firefighter was when you went through the door okay
03:04:39 this is assess who was right in the corner of where the fire door exit but the fire exit is on the coral right
03:04:50 the fire exit is on the coral right there the corner no way to go to the state was was he in the stairwell itself or still of the area who was in the lobby behind them so he was in the lobby
03:05:02 lobby behind them so he was in the lobby area just by the the door yeah by the door I'm not sure or he if he hold the door or not if do you see where it says
03:05:18 door or not if do you see where it says steps up on on the image that would be in the stairwell so I think that the the
03:05:29 in the stairwell so I think that the the door into the stairwell although it's not marked as a door is to the left of that yeah yeah I read the corner at the corner of the end of the lobby but still
03:05:41 corner of the end of the lobby but still is clear still be he hadn't got into the stairwell at all no no no he was behind us as far as I remember yeah if we could
03:05:55 us as far as I remember yeah if we could put the red dots at the the end of the war
03:06:04 just move if you move the red dot to the left please keep moving it Paul keep moving pause there and we drop a little bit that's where the stairwell door
03:06:17 bit that's where the stairwell door would be do you remember seeing the firefighter in that area yeah is what I tried to say why I remember he was
03:06:29 tried to say why I remember he was behind in my right side of the where I'm where I was so as you went through the stairwell door you had a sense of the firefighter
03:06:40 door you had a sense of the firefighter being behind you and on your right side us the position when he shows the torture and in making your way from your
03:06:51 torture and in making your way from your door to that stairwell door forget about the torch but what was the visibility like in the in the stairwell in the in the lobby area as you went from your
03:07:02 the lobby area as you went from your front door to the stairwell door I don't remember any visibility we were just walking by using his flat because he was torching it from behind once we left the
03:07:13 torching it from behind once we left the flood
03:07:21 you've described how you came down stairs and just so that I can click what was there a point when you came down from the 18th floor where the smoke on the stairwell became more dense yeah I
03:07:33 the stairwell became more dense yeah I remember yes that's how that's why I take off the weight all from my son and put it in my side because when I found it hard to breathe I use it her so and
03:07:52 it hard to breathe I use it her so and can you remember how far down you'd gone when you went there when there was any light in the stairwell I saw the lights in very button at the very bottom teachers yeah where I get a refresher
03:08:12 can I take you please to paragraph 46 in your statement page 13 please what you
03:08:25 your statement page 13 please what you begin how you begin that paragraph must detect lays we went out of the tower to the ambulance and just so that we can understand what happened after you left the tower do did you receive medical treatment straight away
03:08:36 treatment straight away yeah the emergency service was there the first they were checking myself and
03:08:52 after that they see us and they give us oxygen and they put a number they give us number for myself
03:09:04 us number for myself they say they prioritize they see his condition
03:09:09 condition and the prioritize was like a priority less priority depend on the seriousness of his so I remember the number was three so I don't know that number is
03:09:21 three so I don't know that number is priority three one or two but the number of three it I hold it in my hand at that time so the treatment to get is how sure and get a small oxygen and you tell me
03:09:35 and get a small oxygen and you tell me breathe you've explained how you know water yeah sorry to interrupt finish your finish yeah you've explained that you know your descent down down the stairwell
03:09:46 stairwell what was the physical effect on you when you came out of the tower how are you feeling once I get down to the very bottom right behind me and net which I
03:09:58 bottom right behind me and net which I couldn't stand on the mezzanine floor so I've been I can handle Lucas because of the back the
03:10:09 the back the the pain on the back so I give her to help me and I stand up holding the hundred and like line to the lobby and
03:10:24 hundred and like line to the lobby and real easily like that and I've been the realist but everyone was surprised that we managed I was about to be broken I oh
03:10:35 we managed I was about to be broken I oh they were say to me I'm lucky they said because of coming down slides all the way down in your statement and it begins
03:10:52 way down in your statement and it begins from paragraph 46 you set out the steps that you took immediately to find your son Isaac yeah after you escaped from the tower and and indeed in the hours that days and days that followed I mean
03:11:06 that days and days that followed I mean no disrespect to you or to your family when I say that I don't have any questions for you about that aspect of your evidence and of your statement at the moment I have no further questions
03:11:17 the moment I have no further questions to ask you but there may be other questions that others asked me to put to you but I'll need to pause in order for that to happen well mr. Takei it's almost the end of
03:11:30 well mr. Takei it's almost the end of your evidence I think you would probably prefer to finish it now before we break for lunch with you so we're going to have a short break now only five minutes Senate mr. Rawat and others can just
03:11:41 Senate mr. Rawat and others can just think about whether there any other questions they need to ask you yeah okay all right okay would you like to go to the usher and we'll come back there's five pass button and see whether
03:11:52 there's five pass button and see whether there are more questions for you okay thank you very much
03:12:05 ripeness relat see if you can get us back by front cause
03:12:59 you
03:13:26 you
03:16:50 yes mr. relet yes of course right thank you
03:17:19 and I think mr. Relin has one more question for you possibly more yes we will thank you miss gem mr. Sekulow before I did with the final question or
03:17:33 before I did with the final question or two can I thank you for the patient way in which you've answered my questions today we've gone through a great deal of detail and you've been very careful about giving your evidence at the
03:17:46 about giving your evidence at the beginning when I first started asking questions I explained to you that my questions were going to focus on what you yourself saw and heard and it is very important that we do make sure we
03:18:00 very important that we do make sure we have got all your evidence as to what you saw and heard on the night of the fire I'm not in asking the next question I'm not inviting you to make comments on
03:18:12 I'm not inviting you to make comments on other people's evidence and I'm not inviting you to make criticisms of other individuals that would be unfair but I want to make sure that you are able to
03:18:23 want to make sure that you are able to say that you that that anything important that you saw and heard on the night is given in evidence so if we put to one side your statement and the
03:18:35 to one side your statement and the answers that you've given today my question is this is there anything else that you saw or heard on the night of the fire that you think it's important
03:18:47 the fire that you think it's important to tell the chairman
03:18:54 that is when we get down
03:19:11 Kenneth's spoke to a police officer
03:19:18 actually he told us about that I was missing but there was misunderstanding but if that police officer could tell the firefighter
03:19:32 officer could tell the firefighter because they know they were not listeners that he was missing I think there may be more chance of to get him
03:19:45 there may be more chance of to get him if either a left or but I led and there was no any one asked us what was
03:19:58 was no any one asked us what was happening at the ground and and us and another thing I have something which I'm going to read it's very difficult but
03:20:12 going to read it's very difficult but after
03:20:16 [Music]
03:20:25 I must live with imagined thought of my little boy left a lot on stairs of horror all light but our near nightmare
03:20:38 horror all light but our near nightmare doesn't in there
03:20:43 our little little boy was trampled this is very painful to sit here in telling
03:20:54 is very painful to sit here in telling you that after because I need you to please feel and hear why I have been let down by firefighter Brigade London Fire
03:21:05 down by firefighter Brigade London Fire forget forget my son would have been alive today if we had been allowed to live earlier when they came in telling us to stay we sell which they tell the
03:21:20 us to stay we sell which they tell the other flood living one floor above us in nineteen store around the same time they've been carried in rescue which am pleased by I was asking myself why would
03:21:31 pleased by I was asking myself why would not us the other most importantly which I am very angry last week I heard up a
03:21:42 I am very angry last week I heard up a manage to get through the inquiry the man hold myself statement I don't understand why the firemen they
03:21:57 understand why the firemen they prioritized the man holding my child an adult over my son Isaac if they had held my son's hand I truly believe he would
03:22:10 my son's hand I truly believe he would have been alive today what is shocking me the man who hold my son he bends up
03:22:21 me the man who hold my son he bends up help it from all the way from top to bottom and he any statement I found it hard to say that he's been holding in one hand a fire one another and my son
03:22:33 one hand a fire one another and my son and he's lived there why is that fire do you hold my hand my sense and it's very hard to wait all this long to
03:22:46 very hard to wait all this long to listen this so this is what happened so I don't know what the London Fire Brigade said but I'm very angry and I be left out at all times except that a six
03:22:59 left out at all times except that a six fireman thank you mr. clay I can understand your anger and you've had a terrible experience you and get out and
03:23:11 terrible experience you and get out and I'm sorry that we've had to ask you to come and talk about it again today but I want you to know that your evidence is very helpful to us and so although it's painful for you it
03:23:24 and so although it's painful for you it is as I say of great value to the inquiry and can I say on my own behalf and I suspect on behalf of everyone else here how sorry we are about the terrible loss of your son Isaac and of you and
03:23:37 loss of your son Isaac and of you and Gannett our condolences as far as that can be of any help at all thank you very much for coming okay thank you and now you're free to go if you want okay
03:24:02 a mr. Rohit well that's a full morning honey and we'll sit again at 2:15 thank you 2:15 please