Procedural hearing regarding reporting restrictions for witness testimony in relation to criminal proceedings, followed by evidence continuation from Dr. Grimwood of Kent Fire Rescue.
00:00:02 Yes, just a minute. Mr. Chairman, before we turn to the next matter and before we even turn to that, there's a very there's a an important very very short correction I need to make. There's a very short correction I
00:00:14 make. There's a very short correction I need to make uh to my reading of paragraph 18 of uh Mr. Nabil Chukair's witness statement that I read this morning at IWS 1069. The correction I
00:00:26 morning at IWS 1069. The correction I should make is at paragraph 18 where the statement refers in the last line of that paragraph on page five to Nadia and it should be to Malik.
00:00:37 it should be to Malik. That's a correction that needs to be made for the record and so that when people read that statement they will understand. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Chairman, there's now a matter that before uh we're able to call our next
00:00:50 before uh we're able to call our next witness, uh you need to hear about and there is, as I understand it, an application to be made to you by the Metropolitan Police. Right. Thank you. So, is someone here
00:01:01 Right. Thank you. So, is someone here the police start? I suggest you come and use this bench here. It's probably going to be more convenient. So, you can take for me to sit while I'm dressy.
00:01:11 dressy. Of course. Yes. Thank you. Um,
00:01:14 Um, no. Then, um, [clears throat] yeah. Um, Mr. Sheman, I think I ought to start by outlining the application that I've made in writing. Um, because we of course are at a public hearing. The
00:01:25 course are at a public hearing. The Metropolitan Police Service have today made a written application. We are in public. You know that. No reporting restrictions. There are no reporting restrictions. Um, the Metropolitan Police Service have
00:01:36 the Metropolitan Police Service have this afternoon made an application that I am seeking to address you, sir, about this afternoon. There are no reporting restrictions in place. The application is about an application for reporting
00:01:47 is about an application for reporting restrictions. Um and I gather, sir, that you wish to hear from me in public um before you made any determination of that application. Well, it seemed to me right that we should [clears throat] sit in public
00:01:58 should [clears throat] sit in public unless and until anyone applied for any form of restriction at all. Yes. So, if you wish to make any such application, now is the time to do it. [snorts] Um Mr. Chairman, I'm in some difficulty
00:02:10 Um Mr. Chairman, I'm in some difficulty fully articulating my application in public because of the um nature of the application itself without any reporting restrictions. The most I was thinking of was making a
00:02:21 The most I was thinking of was making a reporting restriction on the application itself on the All right. I'm grateful sir. um well that preliminary stage of requiring a
00:02:33 that preliminary stage of requiring a reporting restriction. Perhaps I can outline generically why um the what the character of the application is. Um so we are due this afternoon to hear from
00:02:44 we are due this afternoon to hear from um Miss Wahhabi who of course has important evidence to give to this inquiry.
00:02:49 inquiry. uh a a risk has arisen in respect of the timing of Miss um Wahhabi's evidence um running uh before uh criminal
00:03:00 running uh before uh criminal proceedings that are due to take place next week. Um the application is for a reporting restriction in respect of her evidence only until the conclusion of those discrete criminal proceedings. So
00:03:13 those discrete criminal proceedings. So the totality of the restriction that's proposed is until the 12th of November. Assuming
00:03:19 Assuming the trial
00:03:20 the trial Assuming the trial goes ahead as planned. Yes. Yeah.
00:03:24 Yeah. Yes.
00:03:29 Yes. Um
00:03:32 Um so if if the reporting restrictions are in place about my um I'm not quite sure where the boundaries lie about what um there may be a reporting restriction in
00:03:43 there may be a reporting restriction in place for at this particular juncture. Um
00:03:46 Um well at this juncture there are no reporting restrictions. No. Well, so I'm invited. So you've read the the content of my written application. I've seen your application. Yes. Yes. Um
00:04:01 um sir I I have to ask that before I make any further representations this matter um it is heard in private rather than in public because of the nature of
00:04:12 than in public because of the nature of the concern that the Metropolitan Police have. I can't meaningfully assist any further uh without being able to address you fully. Well, when you say sit in private, I [clears throat] I think what
00:04:24 private, I [clears throat] I think what you're really asking me to do is to direct that there be no reporting uh of the proceedings relating to this application until some date in the future which I will have to identify
00:04:37 future which I will have to identify or until further order maybe. Um
00:04:43 Um sir, may I take in May I take instruction about that? You could have your solicitor sitting somewhere nearer to you for that purpose.
00:05:34 M if you want to be heard on this matter, I might hear you, but I think at the moment you should still seat. Yes. Now, Miss Clark, where where are we going with this? Um, so I do apologize. I am I'm trying
00:05:47 Um, so I do apologize. I am I'm trying not to be evasive about what I can say um at this particular juncture and I do appreciate the last minute nature of this application. The difficulty with um reporting restrictions
00:05:58 reporting restrictions and the nature of this particular application is that the content of the application contains information that is not directly relevant to the public inquiry into and to these proceedings but relevant to the other criminal
00:06:11 but relevant to the other criminal matters and are details that are sensitive to those matters. I'm in some difficulty um Mr. determine agreeing to um simply reporting restrictions being
00:06:22 um simply reporting restrictions being imposed. Uh a and in fact I would invite you to consider whether perhaps those who have a direct interest in the application um are permitted to stay in the hearing room. Well, I need to be clear about what
00:06:34 Well, I need to be clear about what you're asking me to do. I I thought at one point as you were making those submissions that you were asking me to clear the room and sit in private in in the literal sense. Is that what you're asking me to do? Uh, so I'm I'm asking
00:06:48 asking me to do? Uh, so I'm I'm asking you to to hear the application um with a limited amount of people in the room. Limited limited to those Come on. That would be very difficult because that would mean I'd have to vet everyone in the room to decide whether
00:06:59 everyone in the room to decide whether they should go or stay. Wouldn't Well, for example, those representatives of of Ms. Wahhabi may well um wish to be in the room while I make that application.
00:07:09 Well, all right. But what what you asking me to sit in private in the conventional sense? Uh, I am, sir. All right. Um, Mr. Milit, you want to say anything
00:07:20 Mr. Milit, you want to say anything about that? Well, I don't want to get in the way and I would think just remind you of your duty of fairness under the statute, but I am concerned um about the due process here because of course, Miss Clark acts
00:07:31 here because of course, Miss Clark acts for a core participant. Uh, and it is in the interest of the inquiry to get on and hear all the evidence. And there seems seems to us to be some degree of difficulty uh in her position in being
00:07:42 difficulty uh in her position in being able to do that. That said, anything that would help anything that would help the you to determine the application as soon as possible. Um we would welcome uh if it if it if there's a case for it
00:07:55 if it if it if there's a case for it being heard in private and and that means without anybody present in the interest of fairness then so be it. But I am concerned that the application is being made in private by one core
00:08:06 being made in private by one core participant in the absence of all the others. And there are many people who don't may [clears throat] not necessarily understand what that means. Um, Mr. Ste, you're are you representing
00:08:18 Um, Mr. Ste, you're are you representing uh, Miss Wahhabi? Oh, you are. I'm so sorry. Of course, that's why you're sitting there, isn't it? [laughter] But J, may I just put if I may a marker
00:08:29 But J, may I just put if I may a marker down? We do represent an individual um, to whom this may have some relationship, the application. Yeah, I understand. We have had no sight of any application. I have though had a brief word with council who's currently
00:08:41 brief word with council who's currently before the call up before the inquiry in relation to the application. So there are issues that uh may well affect us and we would ask first of all to see the written application.
00:08:52 written application. Well I think
00:08:56 yes presumably no one else has seen this application. No sir.
00:08:59 No sir. No.
00:09:01 No. Um, [clears throat]
00:09:07 can can copies of the applica Well, you've got difficulty showing that too, haven't you? Uh,
00:09:14 Uh, well, I if I'm in less difficulty if um the legal representatives of those um who represent Miss Wahhabi wanted to see the
00:09:26 represent Miss Wahhabi wanted to see the application. Well, I don't know, Mr. man, have you seen any of this yet? No. No, we have we've had conversations about it, but we don't know exactly what's in it. And I I think I certainly
00:09:39 what's in it. And I I think I certainly on behalf of Mr. Harvey would be happy for there to be a hearing uh in which we are involved and is involved, but the public at large are not.
00:09:50 not. Right.
00:09:50 Right. Type of hearing you already have in that regard.
00:09:54 regard. Yeah.
00:09:55 Yeah. Can I can I just add to this? Of course, I don't know what the application is about. No, I stand up with [laughter] that caveat. Um, but obviously, um, Miss Mohabi has some important evidence to give in
00:10:07 some important evidence to give in relation to flat one too. And I do on behalf of B represent Javari, Baria
00:10:17 Baria who are connected to that family via the wire, the wife and mother of deceased.
00:10:24 And on behalf of I represent the chair of
00:10:32 of Yeah. All right. Does anybody else want to be heard on the question as to whether I should hear this application in private? Just know very briefly just just add that I've had no notice of this at all.
00:10:45 that I've had no notice of this at all. I I'm I'm I'm picked up from Mr. steam uh as we started, but I've had no notice about this at all about what it's about. And that that that concerns me. But be
00:10:56 And that that that concerns me. But be beyond that, I I may well be uh um in agreement with what has has been said, right?
00:11:02 right? It would help if if notice was given. What about other core participants? Does anyone Yes, Mr. Thomas. I'll make following observations. Um
00:11:13 I'll make following observations. Um what has been essentially been asked for is for you to sit in close session. Um I'm not too sure friend has properly set out within the the the boundaries of the
00:11:27 out within the the the boundaries of the public hearing um without revealing um if she's got sensitive information on behalf of the court participant that she represents. a proper legal basis for you
00:11:42 represents. a proper legal basis for you to sit in close session and the the fundamental starting point must be that this is a public inquiry
00:11:53 this is a public inquiry and I understand and I I don't mean to um um cause difficulty to the moment but that's your starting point public inquiry if there is a proper and
00:12:07 inquiry if there is a proper and legitimate need for there to be a closed session. What normally happens is firstly the core participants are given notification of that. All of us
00:12:21 notification of that. All of us um we are given an opportunity to be heard on that. Mhm. Sometimes um what what happens is um without revealing the sensitiv
00:12:34 um without revealing the sensitiv sensitive nature of the the material um just as a matter of respect um a gist of what the the issue may well be without
00:12:47 what the the issue may well be without compromising sensitivities given to participants. So none of that has happened.
00:12:53 happened. No. Well, for better or worse worse, I suppose this is all blown up at very much at the last minute. I [clears throat] I have seen the basis of the application and um it
00:13:04 the application and um it [clears throat] was for that reason that I joged Miss Clark's elbow by reminding her that we were currently sitting in public in case she wanted to apply for any other course to be taken. No. Um,
00:13:17 any other course to be taken. No. Um, she's applying for some kind of special measure and for this session for her application to be heard in close session or or all I'm saying is there was a
00:13:28 or or all I'm saying is there was a process.
00:13:29 process. Yeah. Well, the the fact of the matter may be that the process has to be telescoped for reasons which in due course you you'll discover. Um, does [clears throat] anybody else want to say
00:13:40 [clears throat] anybody else want to say anything about uh conducting this application in private? What's passing through my mind, I say this for your benefit, Mr. Clark, is that I should ask um everyone to
00:13:52 is that I should ask um everyone to leave the room other than the [clears throat] legal representatives of the BSR core participants. Would that trouble you?
00:14:03 participants. Would that trouble you? So, I will need to just turn my back briefly and take instructions.
00:14:15 So we would be entirely content for that to be happy with that. Yes. Right.
00:14:18 Right. And so can I also make it clear that I do have in mind the statutory basis for the application um for you to set people that
00:14:29 that Right. [clears throat] Well, I'm going I'm going to direct then that this application be heard uh in private subject to the attendance of the legal representatives for the BSR core
00:14:41 representatives for the BSR core participants. And I'm going to direct that the proceedings be recorded uh as they would ordinarily in terms of video and uh oral recording and a
00:14:54 video and uh oral recording and a transcript taken of the proceedings. But there there be no publication of the proceedings um all
00:15:04 um all until further order. Now before I actually make that order, one of the things that troubles me about all this is that the press ought to have a chance to be heard on any order restricting
00:15:15 to be heard on any order restricting publication. Is there any any representative of the press in the room?
00:15:22 Would you like to come forward because it's rather hard to hear you without a microphone at that distance?
00:15:41 I'm sorry. I'm having real difficulty in hearing you. It's not your fault. It's a big room and a lot of people just soak up the sound. We would request that we have one reporter in the room while proceedings are sitting.
00:15:53 are sitting. But without without reporting without any reporting until restrictions are lifted. Yeah.
00:15:58 Yeah. Well, can you argue with that? So, I think I've said all I can about that. Um, certainly my application would be be for the rep legal representatives of the BSRS.
00:16:10 of the BSRS. Anything you want to say, Mr. Well, I just wanted to know who is making the representation on behalf of the press as it were. So, J from the press association. Right. I'm content with that. Yeah. Well, I'm content for you to stay
00:16:21 Yeah. Well, I'm content for you to stay in the room. All right. Now, could I trouble everyone else then to leave the room? I'm sorry. I'm going to raise one. Oh, yes. Which is this that uh um Mr. Gomez
00:16:32 Gomez um who is the individual that we represent and who potentially may be affected by this application is with us and in the room at the moment. We would ask that he remain. We see no reason in
00:16:44 ask that he remain. We see no reason in principle why he should not um anything that is said within these rooms unless you make a very extraordinary order we would be entitled to speak to him about. I suppose the same would go for Mrs.
00:16:55 I suppose the same would go for Mrs. Wahhabi wouldn't it? Yes.
00:16:59 Could I just add one matter to that as well and that is that [snorts] Wahhabi is also in the room and may also point out this is most unfortunate because it's been known for a long time
00:17:10 it's been known for a long time and I add Mr. Vansfield. I agree with you entirely. There's not much we can do about that. Well, there is one thing and that is that uh the witness is reassured at the
00:17:21 that uh the witness is reassured at the moment because as you know she's in an adjoining room. Yeah.
00:17:25 Yeah. I think steps have been taken to explain to her what's going on. But you're quite right. She does need to be uh to be aware of what's happening. Right. Well, I'm going to say that Mr. Gomez uh and
00:17:36 I'm going to say that Mr. Gomez uh and Mrs. Wahhabi be permitted to remain. Otherwise, I'm afraid I'm going to ask everyone other than the BSR legal representatives to leave the room. Just one sentence to say that I have
00:17:48 Just one sentence to say that I have been informed by the extend family that they they apprehend what the application is about.
00:17:53 is about. I don't want to hold it up now, but I mention the names of the extended family that I may I want to address you once. Let's see how we go, shall we? Yes.
00:18:04 Yes. Yeah. All right. Thank you. But I'm very sorry to those of you sitting in in the public seating over here. I'm afraid for legal reasons I'm going to have to ask you to to leave the room.
00:18:20 Huh?