Testimony from Bereaved, Survivors and Residents (BSRs) describing their experiences during the Grenfell Tower fire, including escapethrough smoke-filled stairwells and interactions with emergency services.
00:09:09 you
00:09:35 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear more evidence today from those who are present in the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. chairman yes our next
00:09:47 fire yes mr. chairman yes our next witness is mr. Roy Smith can I please call mr. Smith yes thank you
00:10:10 okay I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth thank you very
00:10:24 give shall be the truth thank you very much mr. Smith would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable yes mr. millet good morning mr. Smith good morning can I please ask you to give the enquiry your full name Roy Smith thank you
00:10:35 your full name Roy Smith thank you first I want to start by thanking you very much for coming here to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations we very much appreciate it and we're extremely grateful to you I appreciate
00:10:46 extremely grateful to you I appreciate that you may be at times very difficult for you to relive the events of that night which were heartbreaking and immensely distressing if at any time
00:10:57 immensely distressing if at any time during my questions you need a break all you have to do a signal and we can take a break I'm kind of problem there's no rush at all sometimes my questions may
00:11:08 rush at all sometimes my questions may be a little difficult to understand or it may not just not be terribly good so if at any point you want me to repeat the question I'm happy to do that or put the question in a different way also sometimes when
00:11:19 in a different way also sometimes when you're answering I may be looking at my screen or at my notes but I am very much listening to what you're saying so just because I'm not looking at you doesn't doesn't mean that I'm not taking you on board what you're saying okay
00:11:30 you on board what you're saying okay okay can I start then please by asking you to look at your the first of the two the two witness statements that you've done for the inquiry and we'll look at
00:11:41 done for the inquiry and we'll look at those on the monitor on the desk on your right fronted you the first because you can use the folder if you find it more convenient but the monitor will see what
00:11:53 convenient but the monitor will see what you find this right yes the first is I WS Quinton it's very seven seven one and if you look at that on the screen okay
00:12:04 if you look at that on the screen okay this is the first page of a witness statement is it your witness statements your first statement it is and if we can go to the last page of the statement please at page 16
00:12:17 we can see that it carries a date of what looks like the 25th of June 2018 is that right that's correct and there's a signature just above the date with the name Moy Smith underneath it is that
00:12:28 name Moy Smith underneath it is that your signature it is have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yeah and can you confirm that the content of this statement is true yeah
00:12:37 yeah now there's one exhibit rs.1 and that has a reference iws Quinn tuple 0 9 3 1 if we could just have that on the screen please 9 3 1 this is a floor plan of
00:12:56 please 9 3 1 this is a floor plan of your flat which was flat 95 on the 12th floor of Grenville tower and it's a it's a plan which has been completed in manuscript is that you're writing
00:13:08 manuscript is that you're writing that's not my writing that ok but this is was this done onto your and the yes Roshan yeah it was and does that accurately set out the layout of your flat yet and the night of as at the
00:13:20 flat yet and the night of as at the night of the fire yeah it does thank you now you've also provided a supplementary statement which is iws couldn't triple 0
00:13:31 statement which is iws couldn't triple 0 1 1 6 9
00:13:38 if we're gonna just have that please that's the is that the first page of your supplemental statement it is and if we go to the last page page 3 page
00:13:50 we go to the last page page 3 page that's it it's dated the 19th of October 2018 under a signature it's that signature yours it is and have you had an opportunity to read that statement recently yeah can you please again
00:14:02 recently yeah can you please again confirm that there's the contents of our statements are true yes true yeah thank you
00:14:06 you now according to your first statement flat 95 on the 12th floor of Glenville tower was your family home since 2009 yeah that's right is it correct and can
00:14:18 yeah that's right is it correct and can you tell us who you lived with during that period I don't you don't have to use the names if you don't want to I live my partner and my two children right and as at June 2017 I think you
00:14:30 right and as at June 2017 I think you say that you were all in good health yeah when you moved in in 2009 how many bedrooms did the flat have two two and as at the night of the fire and June
00:14:42 as at the night of the fire and June 2017 how many bedrooms did the flat have three three did you make the adaptations to the flat to create a third bedroom we did and you described a little bit in your statement about that did you make
00:14:54 your statement about that did you make any other adaptations changes to the flat other than making a third bedroom we put a breakfast bar in and a shower right and if we can just go back to the
00:15:07 right and if we can just go back to the plan of the flats that we had a moment ago on the screen which is our s1 if you can just go to that that's OWS 9:31 thank you and could you just explain to
00:15:19 thank you and could you just explain to us where we could see three bedrooms could you just explain to us which the third bedroom is which you created it's the first one it should come in the
00:15:30 the first one it should come in the front door on the right I see now in your statement you describe how that third bedroom has light coming into it from the bed
00:15:42 from the bed in the top right hand corner of yet a diagram
00:15:47 diagram natural light yeah how did that come in how was there access to natural light because we left her open in for the natural light to come through the main bedroom into the third bedroom okay and was the the opening like a doorway no it
00:16:00 was the the opening like a doorway no it was like just an entrance okay I see and when you were sitting or standing in that third bedroom could you clearly see the window in the next-door bedroom which it adjoins it yeah you could yeah
00:16:19 now still on the subject of Windows can I ask you please to look at page three of your first statement we go to paragraph 10 you say there that the PMO
00:16:37 paragraph 10 you say there that the PMO installed new windows to the flat can you remember when they did that I can remember the exact date nine was that during the refurbishment oh yeah yeah
00:16:48 during the refurbishment oh yeah yeah okay
00:16:48 okay then you go on to say right and came to the flat and measured the windows and do you explain about the blinds and then you go on to explain your experience
00:17:01 you go on to explain your experience with a window falling out and that's paragraph 11 yeah um we're all the windows in your flat replaced by Righton yeah and that was that as part of the
00:17:12 yeah and that was that as part of the refurbishment yeah correct now you describe them as very much smaller than the original windows did
00:17:23 smaller than the original windows did did the size of the windows have any impact on the fitting of the frames into the wall for the blinds for the for the
00:17:34 the wall for the blinds for the for the windows themselves yeah there was yeah it was gaps everywhere right they was filled with some light white mastic or something right okay I'll come to that in a bit more detail in a moment but page three of
00:17:48 detail in a moment but page three of your statement to paragraph eleven you described in some detail an experience you've had when the window came or fell in to your flat when you came back from
00:18:02 in to your flat when you came back from work one day yeah now you say at the top of page four I went to have a look
00:18:13 and saw that the window had come out of the frame and was lying on the floor
00:18:19 first of all going back if we can to I WS 9 3 1 which is the plan of your flat mr. Smith we can just have that up again
00:18:33 can you can you show us or point to which window you were referring to the bedroom right in front of the front door
00:18:44 bedroom right in front of the front door sorry - so it helps yes we also have a red dot system and say the bedroom window thank you very much right so
00:18:56 window thank you very much right so that's the north-facing bedroom my children's bedroom the children's baby yeah well my youngest and you and your partner will have the bedroom between the lounge and that bedroom - yeah okay
00:19:09 the lounge and that bedroom - yeah okay now when you describe the window falling out of the frame as you say in paragraph 11 of your statement um did that was that only the glass or did it include
00:19:21 that only the glass or did it include the PVC frame although the surround the whole frame came out the whole frame came out yeah what was left behind the gap the window the space where the
00:19:34 gap the window the space where the window should be the space where the window should be okay and was that repaired yeah do you remember who repaired it Ryden Linda Prentiss came up the same day after I called him okay and
00:19:49 the same day after I called him okay and did she explain to you why the window had fallen in she said they're putting so many windows in this one was probably a few bolts a few rivets was not replaced not put in right which was an
00:20:01 replaced not put in right which was an easy mistake to happen and the amount of work that was doing okay and then you explained about letting the builders in
00:20:11 you then say in paragraph 15 once they'd
00:20:22 you then say in paragraph 15 once they'd fitted the cladding the gaps in the cladding were obvious yeah from the inside of the flat it was possible to put your hand out of the window to reach into the cladding and touch the foam
00:20:34 into the cladding and touch the foam inside the metal outer the metal outer Frank I was going to ask you about your frame yeah okay the edges weren't seeing um first of all was that when you described the gap there that you could
00:20:48 described the gap there that you could put your hand through which windows in the flat could you do that with mostly to my bedroom our bedroom in my partner's bedroom that's the one I pulled the foam out of in that one because he used to make a clacking noise
00:21:00 because he used to make a clacking noise every night that's right it was loose and it was a big gap and you could see the foam in its I actually pulled the farm out and then called Linda from ridin and showed
00:21:12 then called Linda from ridin and showed her the fun light poured out where abouts in the window frame this is a window and then your house I did allege
00:21:23 window and then your house I did allege a witness is holding up a Leever arch file sorry dis familiar headed around it had the cladding I mean the frames around here and like the ledge there there was a gap and here just here on the society there like a LED window sill
00:21:38 the society there like a LED window sill outside joint have a panel in here there was a gaps on either side on the outside of the WIMP on the outside okay I understand there are seven zeros and a
00:21:55 I understand there are seven zeros and a three page 47 now what I go to show you that mr. Smith is a photograph of the outside of Granville Tower and it's a
00:22:07 outside of Granville Tower and it's a window it's not necessarily flat 90 95 but it's during the construction process and we can just go to that page please
00:22:21 and we can just go to that page please it's PLA our 3 page 47
00:22:43 it's ELAR seven zeros three and then page 47
00:23:01 no that's beer they are one we won't be any r3 this is me I'm so sorry about this just I just want to make sure that we get the right page
00:23:23 yes thank you very much so this is a photograph I'm looking at figure eight point five two in dr. Barbara lanes
00:23:34 point five two in dr. Barbara lanes report mr. Smith and this is just for our reference this is under paragraph eight point ten point six and if we just have the the uppermost photograph which
00:23:47 have the the uppermost photograph which is figure eight point five two and expanded we can see that dr. Lane has identified several parts of the window structure using this photograph if you
00:23:59 structure using this photograph if you would could you point out or identify to us where the gaps were that you are able to put your hand it into right so at the
00:24:14 to put your hand it into right so at the edges of the yes I see the witness is pointing out to be the edges of the rain screen where they slip away from the
00:24:26 screen where they slip away from the window frame on the exterior below the window that's right yeah thank you very much
00:24:35 now how you said you could put your hand in in in in centimeters terms you could you get your hand in easily or or did
00:24:47 you get your hand in easily or or did you have to shove it in now I've got my hand in like this and yes I pulled a foam out which was dis long about a foot long and about two inches thick I pulled out the way I'm and report out from here
00:24:58 out the way I'm and report out from here okay
00:24:59 okay and which was the worst-affected window which had these gaps do you remember um I think our bedroom was the worst but there was gaps throughout the property
00:25:12 there was gaps throughout the property but you know in our bedroom was the worse okay um and I'll come back to what what was done about that in the moment but in your statement you go on to say the bottom of page before when it was
00:25:23 the bottom of page before when it was windy you could hear the cladding rattle yeah and then in paragraph 16 you say
00:25:39 what we were told that the cladding would keep the temperature and heat in the building when it was cold and when it was warm it would cool the building yeah taking those really together did you my question is did you feel air from the outside coming into the flat
00:25:51 from the outside coming into the flat through these windows yeah okay first of all which window is the worst offender our bedroom your bedroom yeah where did the air come through from the sides from around the whole frame the whole frame
00:26:04 around the whole frame the whole frame yeah and then when we made a complaint to Ryden two gentlemen came back up with some like said mastic and they've done it all the way round like they was like this thick all the way around right then
00:26:17 this thick all the way around right then you'd still feel the draft come through okay you say this thick I couldn't yeah probably try and estimate that they David centimeters like the gun they used and then ago like a sponge spread it
00:26:29 and then ago like a sponge spread it across it was all over a rounds I'm fortunate under my pitchers by it was in a terrible state the way they left it but we thought it would help but it didn't help at all you said didn't help in what way didn't it help there was
00:26:42 in what way didn't it help there was still air coming through where was the air coming through after I presume from the same place because they put PVC the windowsills in the flat as
00:26:53 put PVC the windowsills in the flat as well so and at the edges there where they was cut off my Percy was coming through there but you could just feel it you could put your hands in the wind and you could just fill yeah right and it was meant to be double glazing but was
00:27:08 was meant to be double glazing but was there any particular sorry I did want to finish off was there any particular part of the window which led him air in the most in the lounge the the kitchen
00:27:19 most in the lounge the the kitchen window then the first lounge window and then if one in the corner that was really draft in it you put your hand near the wind still then you could feel a really bad draft and this was after
00:27:32 a really bad draft and this was after they filled it with the mastic and did you go back to the TMO and tell them that even though someone had come to do a repair it was still letting area loads of times that's what happened
00:27:43 loads of times that's what happened nothing we ended up buying a Dyson cold and hot heater to make the serum more warmer right
00:27:57 now you've described as I've just shown you in paragraph 15 that when it was windy you could hear the cladding rattle
00:28:09 windy you could hear the cladding rattle yeah that is that the cladding on the outside of the building yeah it was like it's in like a tin yeah right
00:28:19 right and which outside which windowed our bedroom window outside your bedroom window did you actually see it did you observe it yeah definitely what is it yeah what was rattling there was a frame at the side that came down and it was
00:28:32 at the side that came down and it was this loose right when the wind blew is just just rattle okay but especially when you have a nighttime when there's no other noise that you could hear it quite loud right did you take that up
00:28:45 quite loud right did you take that up with the TM oh yeah and what happened they came back and the gentleman replaced it by um believe it or not bending it on his leg bending it back
00:28:57 bending it on his leg bending it back into shape to make it tighter and replaced it yes and you described that in your statement of paragraph 15 and quite clear turns you say three lines
00:29:08 quite clear turns you say three lines down from the top of page five he took a loose section of the metal cladding off yeah put it over his knee bent it to reshape it and then put it back on the building yeah um have detailed questions
00:29:20 building yeah um have detailed questions about that how easily how did he take the this particular planning or had like bends around this after for instance again
00:29:28 again it had like grips around it and it was loose that's what you said so I took it off I mean bent into shape needs me like that and then fixed it back on just like that just put it back into place like
00:29:39 that just put it back into place like that and that was it did it help no um how easy was it did he be tools to take it off no you just bare hands and he bent it with his knee can we just go
00:29:52 he bent it with his knee can we just go back to thank you can I just get back to to be la r3 page 47 and that photograph we looked at a minute ago figure eight point five two is the bit of cladding
00:30:03 point five two is the bit of cladding that the man took off and bent over his knee and replaced visible on that photograph on the top one no it's non there yet okay can you tell us by reference to the bottom photograph down here which is eight five eight point
00:30:15 here which is eight five eight point five three well it was on the side here [Music]
00:30:21 [Music] but here there's a panel up here I see okay so the right-hand side of your bedroom window it was on the left-hand side of the bedroom window as as as you
00:30:32 side of the bedroom window as as as you look out the right-hand side yeah sorry
00:30:40 what did he do to secure the cladding this man was a man's it it was a man yet yes what did he do to secure the cladding where he replaced it he just put it back on it had like bends around the back so just forced it back on just
00:30:53 the back so just forced it back on just wanted that wasn't it then you say still in paragraph 16 I pointed out to them the gaps in the cladding where it was joined that you could touch the foam
00:31:05 joined that you could touch the foam inside and even pull it out yeah did he say anything in response to you know no Linda Prentiss did she asked me why I took it out I pulled it out so she was there with this man okay yeah she
00:31:17 was there with this man okay yeah she was she was dear the one overseeing all the workers she was the one with the white hat she was to perform Allah suppose you could call her okay and she
00:31:28 suppose you could call her okay and she asked you why you took the foam and yeah what did you say I just saw how easy it was to take it out what does she say nothing is not she said not to take it out right it's hate for it was a meant
00:31:41 out right it's hate for it was a meant to keep the heat in and did the man who effected the repair you've described say anything about the gaps that you now pointed out
00:31:51 the paragraph 16 of your statement you say that in the third line we asked Claire Williams again and again if it was safe and we were told that it was
00:32:02 was safe and we were told that it was why did you ask her if the well first of all what was safe question the question is what were you asking her whether what were you asking her was safe our flat
00:32:14 were you asking her was safe our flat your flat generally yeah just for general yeah because we was gonna have gas pipe support through the ceiling for the front door was gonna have a boiler port by the front door right which was only way out which was gas so we didn't
00:32:27 only way out which was gas so we didn't know friendly everything was safe okay see it was your was your question at all related related to the cladding everything the whole whole job the whole works did you specifically ask Claire
00:32:38 works did you specifically ask Claire Williams of the TMO if the cladding was safe no going over the pagenty of statement to her probably off 21 you
00:32:52 statement to her probably off 21 you deal with a question of the front door there and you say ride and installed a new front door just before Christmas in 2016 yeah it had a security chain and a
00:33:03 2016 yeah it had a security chain and a spy hole it also had a self closing mechanism
00:33:05 mechanism shortly before - I was opening or closing it I heard a crack and the weight and chain snapped and fell inside the door after that the door the door will no longer self closed where was the
00:33:18 will no longer self closed where was the chain and wait can you describe that for us yeah it was um where the hinges are the top hinge the bombings in the middle you had a chain hmm on it in fact was my partner that was opening the door and
00:33:29 partner that was opening the door and the nudists he heard bang unbelievable knows and then the chain had snaps and gone into the door itself right into the door not the frame into the frame sorry
00:33:40 door not the frame into the frame sorry okay
00:33:40 okay yeah so that was it you just snapped so we just left it like that right where is where do you think I mean only a lot of expert on front doors but where
00:33:51 a lot of expert on front doors but where was the wait did you think I presumed it was in the door within the door yeah to pull it so whoever snapped it must have went in suckers it afterwards we had a round hole in the door like that yes it was the company
00:34:05 door like that yes it was the company had done the doors they was on site I think for six weeks or something and then so they was gone by then right did you report that to the TMA yeah and did they send anyone to repair it no did
00:34:18 did they send anyone to repair it no did you report it again did he press the point no London as at the night of the fire was the door still in that non self closing State yeah do you remember
00:34:29 closing State yeah do you remember whether there were any gaps around the front door no not ran the front door okay still sticking with page six of your first statement mr. Smith a
00:34:40 your first statement mr. Smith a paragraph 23 you say the bottom of the page we used to hear the dr riser going off all the time what do you mean by the dry riser well it's a there was an
00:34:52 dry riser well it's a there was an extractor fan outside the front door there was two panels and where we made the other bedroom there was a explain it like a corner of the room cut off and
00:35:07 like a corner of the room cut off and that's where this finish to go on it would be like you go off see it's like a smoke extractor my belief but downstairs where the main room was it said on the
00:35:18 where the main room was it said on the door dry riser so that's where I got dry riser from okay let's see just I'm picking that a bit like if I can just do that first of all could you go back to the plan of your flat RS one could you
00:35:30 the plan of your flat RS one could you you I think referred in your last answer to outside the front door two panels and where we made the other bedroom yeah you said that there was a corner of the room cutoff yes these two can you just point
00:35:43 cutoff yes these two can you just point them out
00:35:44 them out that and it have been our neighbors have left I see sorry to come out front and the corner cut off in the third bedroom he was blocked off it was dead already because it's used to be a cupboard I see
00:35:55 because it's used to be a cupboard I see and we open up the cupboard so then so you can hear it more now but that was already so big and the other slightly bill never decided to flex in the air and did that cut off corner run from floor to ceiling
00:36:07 floor to ceiling yeah and you also referred in that answer to a event can I show you a
00:36:22 answer to a event can I show you a photograph please mm-hmm which is BL a zero to five one three and two five one four before those go up on the screen let's just make a small warning this is
00:36:34 let's just make a small warning this is going to be a photograph of the inside of the tower taken after the fire so are you comfortable that I should show you that yeah okay but it's two five one three and two five one four these are
00:36:47 three and two five one four these are photographs we've looked at with many other witnesses this is a breeze our photographs taken from floor six mr. Smith so not not your floor can you
00:36:59 Smith so not not your floor can you identify for us the vents that you're talking about
00:37:09 and that's on the north side of the building don't be my flat just next to your front door your front door just so we've got this absolutely writer's to the left I left here right okay and now
00:37:23 the left I left here right okay and now I just want to ask you about the noise that you hear will hurt you we're describing it as a sort of yeah yeah
00:37:34 describing it as a sort of yeah yeah he's like a would would come gradually like they would because they would move they would open them these silver things here right
00:37:47 regularly window in my bed still was bedroom right how off what first of all when did you first start hearing the the
00:37:59 when did you first start hearing the the ventilation shaft making those noises
00:38:03 mostly after refurbishment after we done the bedroom because it was not there was no cupboard door - you know protrude it before it was a cupboard how close was it in there so maybe there might of just
00:38:16 it in there so maybe there might of just dampen the noise but I heard it quite regular when we done the bedroom okay often as well did you ever hear it when you were standing in the lobby the communal lobby yeah and when you did
00:38:28 communal lobby yeah and when you did hear it operating in the communal Bobby how loud was it just like a whirling noises just like that can you compare it with a vacuum cleaner louder or softer all the same um a vacuum cleaner about
00:38:40 all the same um a vacuum cleaner about the same at the same as a vacuum cleaner yeah now you how often would the ventilation system go on and work in that way after the refurbishment I heard
00:38:52 that way after the refurbishment I heard at least seven or eight times go off was there anything that you record which triggered it or any conditions which you could associate with it working and I assumed because there was people still
00:39:03 assumed because there was people still in and out to tower doing bits of work they might be testing it or sometimes overnight time I fought it was 40 right but then I just we started to live with
00:39:14 but then I just we started to live with it I fought that's how it worked before that's what's meant to do how long before the night of the fire do you remember hearing the ventilation system working a couple of weeks right
00:39:25 system working a couple of weeks right now you've referred a minute ago to the something moving on the outside of the
00:39:36 something moving on the outside of the vents when you were in the communal Lobby yeah did you actually watch them or see them move yeah when I heard the noise I went right to the grill and looked through yeah I did it to see what
00:39:47 looked through yeah I did it to see what it was and when it did operate in that way in the communal Lobby did you feel any movement of air yeah where was that coming from from the grills to st. grills here would it come in yeah yeah
00:40:02 grills here would it come in yeah yeah right have with how much force not much just like a draft a draft okay and when
00:40:14 just like a draft a draft okay and when the events were operating do you remember whether anything else happened at the same time mechanical just didn't notice what
00:40:27 mechanical just didn't notice what happened with the lifts no no without going to work and it come on delicious be still be work and it won't be our service okay then a couple of times I've got to add I came home from work and
00:40:38 got to add I came home from work and down stairs it was gentleman in that room that said dry riser working in there so I don't know if Dave was what they was doing to it because I'm on the night of the wire I actually listened for it to come on while we've made the
00:40:51 for it to come on while we've made the phone that's caught at a fire brigade I actually listen to it thinking that's gonna help a bit but it didn't come on didn't go on no
00:41:00 welcome to the motive of the fire and what you've just said it in a moment
00:41:07 did you notice any other effect when it was on none such as with your hot water no there was that there was a lot of time we lost heat in hot water right but
00:41:20 time we lost heat in hot water right but I was just I didn't pull it down to that you didn't put it out to that and all right okay
00:41:30 yes while we're still on this photograph um I asked you about the photograph on the Left which is looking to the north of the common lobby looking at the second photograph we can see similar
00:41:42 second photograph we can see similar vents towards the floor level of the south of the lobby did you ever hear the noise coming out of bays I didn't didn't look to be honest just in my ones just mine and my neighbors
00:41:53 in my ones just mine and my neighbors right well by saying coming out they didn't know such a presume they was the same okay did you ever notice the flaps on those moving no now I just want to
00:42:07 on those moving no now I just want to ask you a few questions about and your awareness of what you should do in the event of a fire before of the events of the 14th of June first can I ask that
00:42:18 the 14th of June first can I ask that the witness please be shown inq six zeros 93
00:42:40 this is a photograph way that is effective graph actually of a notice have you ever seen this before yeah where have you have you seen this before
00:42:51 where have you have you seen this before next did a lift on the war okay was and how long before the fire was this notice by the lifts on your wall on the wall
00:43:02 by the lifts on your wall on the wall I'm not unrepresented sure to be honest I've never really noticed it before like in the previous picture I was an arts as well I saw a red Phoenix to the lift which looked like a fire extinguisher is that what that was
00:43:13 extinguisher is that what that was because we never had that on our floor no I'm not sure I'm able to answer your question about that hmm but yeah address I did you see down on
00:43:24 but yeah address I did you see down on the wall yeah and did was you moved into Grenfell in 2009 was that notice there at that time anywhere in the building I can't be sure
00:43:35 can't be sure no no I can't be sure okay did you see this notice anywhere else in the building other than by the lifts on your floor it's just on my lift just yet you know when you're waiting for the lift just to see things that's in front
00:43:46 lift just to see things that's in front that's all I saw yeah okay now there's a lot of there's a lot of detailed instruction in that but just turning away from it well first question is did you ever read it I saw some of it I read some of it
00:44:01 it I saw some of it I read some of it but you didn't I didn't really we was always told by previous there was a gentleman called Tony was it before and there was a fire on a sixth floor some
00:44:14 there was a fire on a sixth floor some dust bin bags have been set of fire and the gentleman said any Tony said any fires in there it's they're all self-contained flats he said it's all solid concrete so you know once you're in there you're in there so I just
00:44:25 in there you're in there so I just presumed we were safe in now I didn't really take much nicer than that okay so I just knew you don't lose a lift in the event of a fire I knew that right right so in general terms if you could
00:44:37 so in general terms if you could encapsulate your understanding of what to do in the event of a fire on the block very simply what was it has that the nice things stay indoors stay indoors keep windows closed apart from this notice and what you just
00:44:49 apart from this notice and what you just described about your discussion with Tony did you ever get any information from any organization or any individual about what to do in the event of a fire
00:45:00 about what to do in the event of a fire anywhere in the block no can I just ask you did you understand as at the night of the fire that there was a general alarm in the block that would go off if
00:45:12 alarm in the block that would go off if there was a fire in the block no that wasn't your understanding no no mr. Smith I know I gotta turn to the events of the 13th and 14th of June 2017
00:45:24 events of the 13th and 14th of June 2017 on that on the evening of the 13th of June I think you were you were at home with your two daughters correct and I think your partner was out at work yeah and let me just summarize your evidence
00:45:37 and let me just summarize your evidence in your statement if I can and tell me if this is wrong but you had an ordinary evening at home with your daughters and with Jessica Obama mm-hmm it was a friend of one of your daughter's Georgina's friend Ian and Jessica went
00:45:53 Georgina's friend Ian and Jessica went home I think it has to go to the gym together every night Georgina and Jessica yeah right so she used to come up and go upstairs okay and you I think went to bed after about
00:46:04 and you I think went to bed after about 9:00 p.m. yeah when you went to bed do you remember where the windows in the flat open or closed closed what were they all closed yeah why was that just something I used
00:46:16 yeah why was that just something I used to do just close the windows right cuz specially from the kitchen it was a sad day for me so I was quite you'd hit him cosmic that kind of noise so maybe something we've done and I think your
00:46:28 something we've done and I think your partner returned home from work after you told on us to sleep it's all right yeah and then she you say in your statement she came to bed at about quarter past midnight yeah that's prepared Graf 30 of your
00:46:39 yeah that's prepared Graf 30 of your statement we don't need to look at it apart from your daughters and your partner was there anybody else in the flat after that time none now you've set out in your statement
00:46:51 now you've set out in your statement that the first time you noticed any signs of smoke or fire that night was when you woke up about 1:10 when you got up to go to the toilet yeah and you you say that at paragraph
00:47:09 yeah and you you say that at paragraph 31 and you say I checked my phone and that is why I know what time it was and you say all say the same paragraph that you noticed a funny smell like burning
00:47:21 you noticed a funny smell like burning plastic but quite faint yeah did you first notice the smell sorry but to ask you this did you first taters a smell when you got up out of bed or when you were in the toilet no when I saw when I
00:47:34 were in the toilet no when I saw when I got out of bed I saw on the edge of the bed first cuz I've just woken up and I straight away I smell something funny right so I went to the toilet use a toilet went to the bar from washed my hands and smell it faintly in the
00:47:45 hands and smell it faintly in the hallway so I checked around make sure every night when I've got to live anywhere else check my daughter's make sure it was okay and I went back to bed right and I said to you know of a
00:47:57 right and I said to you know of a partner up and said can't you smell it
00:48:00 you you first notice to smell he save us faint what what was it a smell off she's like black plastic plastic burning
00:48:11 she's like black plastic plastic burning plastic
00:48:11 plastic yeah did you turn any lights on at one stage of the year cuz it's melt it's like to get stronger in my bedroom in our bedroom so I presumed it was in our
00:48:23 our bedroom so I presumed it was in our flat here of what was our flat it was on fire just taking it a little bit more in stages you describe the smell and the smell be stronger in the hall and you went check the oven and then check the
00:48:36 went check the oven and then check the girls yeah and then what you say went back to bed yeah and then a paragraph 32 so I got up again and I put the light on in the bedroom yeah what made you what made you get up again because it's got
00:48:48 made you get up again because it's got stronger right in our room so at that stage I fall I first thought was it was the TV
00:48:54 the TV it was our TV because I say only electronic things in the bedroom so I presumed it was stronger in our room it was dad so stronger in your bedroom was it than in the hall the whole time to
00:49:06 it than in the hall the whole time to the better Hall in outside the front door was strong yes but in our hallway it wasn't as strong as in our bedroom I follow the communal Hall so you get up again because the smell of the smoke is
00:49:17 again because the smell of the smoke is stronger yeah I laid down I think I just laid back down and I was sniffing and I thought it's getting stronger so I looked at a TV and a fool he's got me to TV so I got back up and I
00:49:28 he's got me to TV so I got back up and I put the light on and it was like like nothing much has changed and encash I said and my partner said get the girls and I said to call the fire brigade and
00:49:39 and I said to call the fire brigade and at this stage I still thought it was our flat and fire and that's when I open the front door now you say in the same paragraph you'd
00:49:50 now you say in the same paragraph you'd put the light on and you had down like three down light is free spotlights yeah in your bedroom and you say in the second and third line you thought a bulb had gone but very
00:50:01 you thought a bulb had gone but very quickly realized the room was full of smoke it was like a fog or mist did it have the same smell yes just described yeah but that's what my for was in our
00:50:13 yeah but that's what my for was in our flat because then because they wants to put the light on off what it's got be enough flat because the smoke was in our room sighs I thought this is our flat it's on fire yes and you say you could
00:50:24 it's on fire yes and you say you could just see the lights through the smoke yeah and you describe the smoke how far away from the lights were you I was buying a bedroom door so from here to
00:50:35 buying a bedroom door so from here to say that screen the big screen 100 judge right okay now you say in your statement at parrot 32 three lines up from the end of that paragraph this was around 120
00:50:46 of that paragraph this was around 120 which would be ten minutes after you you first wake up yeah I'm assuming the time cuz I know I woke up at 110 yes I'm assume it was around that time okay where I was going to ask you how did you know it was it
00:50:58 to ask you how did you know it was it was 120 oh I just assumed I'm just going on the time that I woke I know for a fact I walk about 10 past one but the rest is just obviously things flowed that slowdown in finger events like this
00:51:11 that slowdown in finger events like this but I was just in my mind I was thinking like minutes have passed I assumed it was like 120 by even on one of my course or the fire brigade UPS it was totally a long time I presumed and you know you
00:51:23 long time I presumed and you know you don't think of the time and things like this do understand that entirely searing your bedroom and as this make off followed by again miss likes me mm-hmm
00:51:35 followed by again miss likes me mm-hmm could you see where it was coming from no could you see any signs of fire at the stage no where was the bedroom window in your bedroom still closed yeah
00:51:46 window in your bedroom still closed yeah now we had perfect fit blinds and was it pulled down so blackout blinds so but it was all closed talk place did you go
00:52:02 it was all closed talk place did you go and check any of the other rooms yeah which rooms did you check kitchen and my daughter's bedrooms was there smoking those rooms not as much as little faint but not as much in the bit that's in our
00:52:13 but not as much in the bit that's in our bedroom that's why I presume the main fire was in our bedroom and that's why come on I said to get the girls called five grade and we was gonna exit the flat right so you up in the front door and realize it wasn't wasn't my flat
00:52:27 and realize it wasn't wasn't my flat because of corridor the landing outside was just full of smoke did you get a chance to look at the front door at that stage yeah did you see any signs of
00:52:38 stage yeah did you see any signs of smoke coming from the front door no now at paragraph 36 on page 9 of your first statement you say we could hear our
00:52:51 statement you say we could hear our neighbor at flat 96 mrs. Lewis screaming out that there was a fire in her kitchen correct that it was on fire yeah um
00:53:03 could you actually sit hear her say I could hear her screaming she ran outside and I opened the front door so she opened her front door she opened the front door could hear we could hear - screaming I think at the time my partner
00:53:14 screaming I think at the time my partner was on the phone to the fire brigade and we could hear her screaming the fighter flat was on fire so I was going to say like tell us come into my flat cuz I fought at that stage maybe that's where
00:53:25 fought at that stage maybe that's where the fire must be coming from cause she's my next-door neighbor so now I realize it wasn't my flower on fire and the landing was on fire us and full of smoke outside and she's fights I put two and two together and came up with five
00:53:36 two together and came up with five because I thought it was her flat I see where were you when you first heard her scream I was in the hallway you were in the hallway so you heard her through your front door yeah I see did you look out at the front door at that point yeah thought through the
00:53:47 that point yeah thought through the keyhole no no I opened it you opened it what was what would the smoke condition is like in the darker gray a darker gray yeah then it was previously then it was previously when you'd seen
00:53:58 then it was previously when you'd seen it the first time yeah when I first opened the first time it was like gray fog light in my bedroom by little bit darker but that when I opened it again
00:54:07 again scratch it you just got darker and darker okay now let's just try to take this a little bit more in stages how long after you got up the second time is
00:54:18 long after you got up the second time is used to describe how you've got up the first time at 110 and got up the second time and turned the lights on and saw the smoke how long after that did you first hear mrs. Lewis screaming well I thought it was like 20 minutes later I
00:54:30 thought it was like 20 minutes later I thought I'd presumed but I later found out it was 50 minutes later okay when you got up for the second time what we
00:54:44 you got up for the second time what we asked you this way when was the first time that you opened the front door into the communal lobby as I presumed around 1:00 I thought it was 120 when I thought he was out flat and I thought we got get out but was that the staple advice was
00:54:56 out but was that the staple advice was if it's anywhere else you staple by presumed it was in my flat yes so we're gonna leave but then I realized it wasn't because I smoked wouldn't be more out in the communal part than it would be in our flat
00:55:07 part than it would be in our flat because our hallway and the girls room was not as full of smokers out bedroom and the communal hallway I see so I knew it wasn't our flat then and then obviously when I heard mrs. Lewis I said
00:55:20 obviously when I heard mrs. Lewis I said I thought it must be her flat because she's our neighbor did you open the front door for the first time before you heard mrs. Lewis yeah I see yeah so they
00:55:33 heard mrs. Lewis yeah I see yeah so they say when you heard mrs. Lewis you then open the second go to the front door a second time yeah I see and roughly how long between those two oak door openings do you think you last like I said I
00:55:45 do you think you last like I said I thought it was like 10 minutes but it's open the first one probably I 40 is 120 bucks a laconic remembered is that time I thought us about when we was leave gonna leave but I now know that mrs. Lewis left flat 150 no
00:56:05 can I then take you because you refer to a call to 999 that your partner made I will just show you that it's lfb 309 and
00:56:26 will just show you that it's lfb 309 and I sought to have that on the screen you also say in your statement is just to put this in some NXT at paragraph 35 you
00:56:37 put this in some NXT at paragraph 35 you say cassia said get the girls I'll call the fire brigade your partner said that and then your partner rang the fire brigade using your landline and I went to wait the girls yeah and then your partner passed the phone to you and you
00:56:49 partner passed the phone to you and you took over yeah that's how it worked I believe so yeah now if I can show you the transcript you you can see from the
00:57:03 the transcript you you can see from the number to the left of the last number on the right it says oh one two six five eight and that's the time of a call at
00:57:16 eight and that's the time of a call at oh one 26:58 okay how long into the call so your partner makes the call how long
00:57:28 so your partner makes the call how long into that call how long she on the phone call before she hands the phone to you do you think I'm not sure I'm not sure okay let's just go through the transcript a little bit page two a third
00:57:45 transcript a little bit page two a third of the way down caller we do have or do having the fire in the building we're living on the 12th floor can you please give me advice about what shall we do because we can see the fire coming through the window do you think that was
00:57:57 through the window do you think that was you or do you think that was your partner no it's my partner that was your partner and then there's discussion about Lancaster West yeah yeah we're on our way
00:58:04 our way and then caller yes when I need to know I've got a inaudible because I heard the list of floors below inaudible next door my neighbor she's saying the fire in her kitchen already I have two kids we
00:58:16 kitchen already I have two kids we really don't know what to do was that you or your partner do you think her name is my partner okay and then the bottom of the page question yeah have you got any smoke coming into
00:58:27 yeah have you got any smoke coming into your property and at the top of page three yes it's coming through the door from our main door because it's outside
00:58:41 was do you remember what was this call which your partner made before or after you looked into the communal landing for the first time after after yeah and it
00:58:54 the first time after after yeah and it looks as if your partner knows by this stage that your neighbor mrs. Lewis is saying that there was a fire in a kitchen already yeah so does can you help us time that does that mean that
00:59:06 help us time that does that mean that you'd been out onto the lock lobby the second time and seen her yeah it probably was if you check the time on the fire brigade call because the first time I open the door like I said it was smokes obviously some smoke must have come in to that property then I knew it
00:59:18 come in to that property then I knew it you know that's only we couldn't leave right
00:59:21 right and then when the neighbor screamed I think that's my time it might have took the phone from my partner then
00:59:32 the phone from my partner then okay so just trying to time that we'll just try to time it because we know this call is at 126 58 it looks from this as if you or your partner know that your
00:59:44 if you or your partner know that your neighbors saying the files in her kitchen already at that stage and it must be the stage because I know does she exit the building at 150 yeah so but just getting your recollection but do you think you heard
00:59:56 you think you heard mrs. Lewis screaming that the fire is in her kitchen before your partner made this call no I think is why she was on the phone while she was on the fair okay now you say also that smoke was coming
01:00:07 now you say also that smoke was coming through the front door this stage was it coming through the closed front door or was it coming through because the door had been opened probably because it been opened because there was no smoke coming him but while it was closing though so
01:00:19 him but while it was closing though so when you closed the door again it was stayed outside did it and that's why I was told to put towels there yeah okay when you looked into the communal landing they'll take the two looks in
01:00:34 landing they'll take the two looks in order for the first time when you looked mm-hmm did you open the door or did you go through this by not open the front door okay
01:00:40 door okay and could you describe the a the conditions in the communal lobby at that stage yeah it was a smoky smoky yeah but not not as dark as it got gradually it was it was I'd say was the
01:00:53 gradually it was it was I'd say was the same color as the bit our bedroom at that stage the first time did you notice where the smoke was coming from no was it moving or was it static it was moving it was moving yes direction was assuming it just
01:01:05 yes direction was assuming it just swirling or swelling yeah and you didn't yeah that you said earlier you didn't notice that the air vents were working no I look I said I actively listened for them because I thought that with Georgia smoke and then
01:01:17 thought that with Georgia smoke and then you know we could leave right could you hear any particular noises or sounds at that stage that first door opening no turning to the second door opening what
01:01:31 turning to the second door opening what was this make then like it was dark dark hmm and he say dark it was can you give it a give it a color or tone yeah it was like the floor right
01:01:43 or tone yeah it was like the floor right grain like that it could you smell it yeah what does it smell like it's still like plastic like plastic did it have any physical effect on you yeah what took my breath away it made you choke did you check hmm what
01:01:56 it made you choke did you check hmm what about your eyes no fires are fine we just got towels after then wet towels and breathe through no you
01:02:14 if you see if you look back at your statement paragraph 38 you say as far as I can remember the first time I opened the front door there was a Thai lady
01:02:26 the front door there was a Thai lady from flat 91 on the landing she said the fire was on the fourth floor she's already pressed the lift button I said don't go in the lift but then the lifts pinged and the doors
01:02:37 but then the lifts pinged and the doors open that she got in the lift no did you see anybody else other than the Thai lady no I saw her briefly and she said was in the fourth floor by assumed it was right on our landing now
01:02:50 assumed it was right on our landing now she's given a witness statement to the inquiry and she said that there was no smoke in the lobby at that time no comment on that
01:03:01 comment on that No well I saw smoke I don't know she missed it I'm not gonna say she's lying on the bias or smoke but you say that she told you there was a fire on the
01:03:13 she told you there was a fire on the fourth floor did she tell you how she knew that no no
01:03:19 do you remember if both lips were working I didn't look I just heard the lift door and she just disappeared okay and I didn't see her again until
01:03:30 okay and I didn't see her again until four three months later in you know the claimant some james's Church st. clement's Church sorry sorry now when
01:03:42 clement's Church sorry sorry now when she got into the lift do you remember seeing anybody else in the lift no I closed the front door I didn't go out closer friends or back
01:03:56 and where were you standing when you saw the lady from flat 91 by my front door by her front door yeah open the door and I stepped out a bit to see Guardian want to go into the
01:04:07 bit to see Guardian want to go into the smoke could you see her and quite clearly getting into the lift or no not clearly do you you know I know your flat
01:04:20 clearly do you you know I know your flat door is next to flat 96 this is Lewis's flat when you came out and saw the neighbor from 91 going into the lift do you remember whether mrs. Lewis's flat front door was open or not
01:04:33 Lewis's flat front door was open or not I don't know did you did you see it or I didn't look no you only looked in okay now in your statement to paragraph 45
01:04:44 now in your statement to paragraph 45 just moving ahead a bit you say at page 10 later that night I heard my neighbour on my floor mrs. Lewis screaming that
01:04:57 on my floor mrs. Lewis screaming that her flat was on fire first of all is that the best that's the same occasion that used knew heard her screaming that yeah yeah it's not a separate occasion no no she screamed that muffler of kitchen flat was on fire they said my
01:05:10 kitchen flat was on fire they said my flat will fly my flats on fire and they're new the reason I ask that question is because of the paragraphs before they had 41 and 43 you've covered the the later calls in 999 calls at 138 and 144 so I was just making sure that
01:05:24 and 144 so I was just making sure that there was no further or later on I just sewed no she's right now and she ran out after that okay that's clear now you've said paragraph 45 if that in the second
01:05:36 said paragraph 45 if that in the second line at about 150 I saw her run to get into the lift and that was at about 1:50 a.m. and in your second statements
01:05:47 a.m. and in your second statements that's what you say in your first day in your second statement you say that you've noted that her ex CCCT vet the exit time was 1:28 yeah and you say that
01:05:58 exit time was 1:28 yeah and you say that at paragraph four of your second statement
01:06:01 statement tying those two together trying to work out the order of events are you sure that you saw mrs. Lewis regard to the ligand at 150 I'm not sure at the time I
01:06:14 ligand at 150 I'm not sure at the time I presumed it was because the way we was the time we was in there and the time was going things was moving and he just seemed forever so I assumed it was at that time did these other young found
01:06:27 that time did these other young found actually left at 150 out the building so it could have been 145 maybe done right did you actually see mrs. Lewis yet yeah so because when she's gonna flat was on fire
01:06:36 fire I saw no I open the front door again I opened my flat door on numerous occasions as you can see from my statement all right how many times do you think you opened your front door to look out into the communal Lobby before
01:06:49 look out into the communal Lobby before you saw her leave her flat twice twice do you remember whether you saw her leave her flat before or after you saw
01:07:01 leave her flat before or after you saw the Thai lady after that 91 after after yeah
01:07:05 yeah do you remember how long after 10 minutes 15 minutes she ran out she ran okay when mrs. Lewis ran from her flat
01:07:17 okay when mrs. Lewis ran from her flat did you actually see her moving out from with Lee yeah I shouted come come in here come in here okay what did where did she go to towards the lift good that's all I know because it's by this time it was dark great it was she just disappeared and
01:07:29 great it was she just disappeared and then my partner we fall latest stays we had to find out she was alive because we she just disappeared so before duties did you see her go to the left or
01:07:41 duties did you see her go to the left or into the I said that's wards to lift entrance and that was earned in Cyr again
01:07:45 again did you notice whether when she left her flat her flat front door was open or closed I don't know I didn't like I said I was I was scared in her I closed the
01:07:58 I was I was scared in her I closed the door I was just hoping someone was gonna come and put the fire around and say was gonna you know the organ if everyone's gonna be all right I know stated I know that anywhere else was on fire and sill my partner said to
01:08:09 was on fire and sill my partner said to me it's spreading up the building at that time I was concerned about getting my partner and my children out so I fought first of all if it was my flat then I realize it wasn't then I thought
01:08:20 then I realize it wasn't then I thought was 96 but then the lady said was a 4th floor and I thought how can it be to 4th floor were to smoke up here everything was going my mind at the same time but I know we're on the top floor and I just want to get us all out to safety so
01:08:33 want to get us all out to safety so that's why my times are out I just was just seen forever yes just him forever in never yeah I understand that at the time when mrs.
01:08:44 understand that at the time when mrs. Lewis left her flat can you tell us again what those conditions in the communal Lobby will like it was like this dark gray light it's the same as before
01:08:53 before yeah
01:08:59 now we've seen your the first call to 999 at 126 which is the one made by your partner then you took over we've seen the transcript or some of the transcript
01:09:11 the transcript or some of the transcript of that form we could just go go back to that it's LFP 309 if we can just have
01:09:23 that it's LFP 309 if we can just have that on the screen
01:09:32 at the bottom of page three the caller says is it the normal the towels or the wet towels was that you asking that
01:09:44 wet towels was that you asking that question do you think no that's not me then on to page four the question is repeated and the operator says it
01:09:55 repeated and the operator says it doesn't say it's it's a flat 16 in the Grenfell towers no no no says the caller we're on floor on the floor twelve twelve operator yeah I'm telling you
01:10:06 twelve operator yeah I'm telling you listen I'm just telling you where the actual fire is okay so it's flat sixteen and the caller says it's something sixteen but it's already came to the twelfth she's saying that she's telling
01:10:17 twelfth she's saying that she's telling that she was shouting she's having fire in the kitchen operated yeah that's right in the fabricator on the scene okay
01:10:23 okay okay all right and thank you then the call then ends do you remember yourself telling the operator that the flap that the fire was on the 12th floor 96 yeah
01:10:37 the fire was on the 12th floor 96 yeah but now I'm not sure in this court right could that have been was it possible that the entirety of this call was was your partner that's possible yeah okay
01:10:49 did your partner tell you about what had happened on the call no okay after this call we know there are three further 999 calls mr. chairman I think
01:11:05 further 999 calls mr. chairman I think we've been going for just about an hour now maybe an appropriate measure break well I get to ask you the moment whether you'd reached a convenient point yes have you yes I have that is right well it's usually good for everyone to
01:11:16 well it's usually good for everyone to take a short break Hyderabad Nara so we're going to stop now for 10 minutes or so I'm going to ask you please not to talk to anyone about evidence while you're out in the room okay if you go with the actual look
01:11:29 okay if you go with the actual look after you and will receive a quarter past eleven alright thank you thank you very much
01:11:45 right 11:15
01:22:52 you
01:24:12 well I think we're ready to start so could we have a bit of passion then I'll ask the witness to come back
01:24:32 you happy to carry on yes yes I am thank you very much all right yes mr. minute yes mr. Smith thank you very much for coming back to us and where we left off was that there were
01:24:43 where we left off was that there were three further phone calls the 999 that were made from your flat I think by you is that right you three calls just for the timing so you've got them in your head the first one is at 138 37 which
01:24:57 head the first one is at 138 37 which lasted for a minute and 19 seconds say 138 the second one at 144 33 which lasted for just a bit over three minutes three and a half minutes one for two that's 144 and then the last one at 154
01:25:11 that's 144 and then the last one at 154 which was a very long one you remember that yes did 40 minutes and 50 seconds and then you're you are finally recorded on the CCTV as leaving the building at
01:25:22 on the CCTV as leaving the building at 242 with your family now that's the time frame we're looking at I want to ask you first of all about some questions some
01:25:33 first of all about some questions some questions about the time that you spent with in the flat before you left looking at the floor plan if we can which is the exhibit your statement iws 93 - you can
01:25:46 exhibit your statement iws 93 - you can just have that back up on the screen
01:25:57 now I WS 9 3 2 h2
01:26:14 let's try one this one 9:30 thank you the plan appears their whereabouts did
01:26:26 the plan appears their whereabouts did you spend most of the time in your flat after your partner had made the first of the 999 calls so the kitchen in the
01:26:38 the 999 calls so the kitchen in the lounge
01:26:47 now before you made the your first call but your family's second call like to 999 which we timed at 138 37 can you
01:27:01 999 which we timed at 138 37 can you remember what the conditions were like within your flat at that time yeah just darker gray just smoke again just more smoke more smoke in the sitting room
01:27:13 smoke more smoke in the sitting room start to get right a bit of smoking now because I closed the door in the bedroom when we left out where were you do you remember when you made your 999 call the one at 138 I was
01:27:26 made your 999 call the one at 138 I was in the kitchen near the kitchen and did you look out of the window yeah what could you see loads of people down and Department of Tower right could you
01:27:37 and Department of Tower right could you see any signs of smoke none could you save me flames no not at that time though right
01:27:45 and could you work out where the smoke in your flat was coming from at that stage my bedroom that's why I closed the door I presumed it was that was the most smoke right coming from there at the
01:27:58 smoke right coming from there at the time you made that 999 call was this smoke worse in your bedroom than it had been when you first I'm not sure because I closed the door didn't go back in time you didn't get back in now can I take you to the transcript of your 999 call
01:28:12 you to the transcript of your 999 call at 138 37 first of all which is at lfb three one eight three one eight
01:28:34 and it ought to take it take you through it all that you say in the beginning top of page - hello love there's a fire in Granville tower but it's spreading I
01:28:45 Granville tower but it's spreading I don't want to do do we stay put it's on our floor now and then you're asked what floor you say we're on the 12th
01:28:51 12th you're on 12 okay it's come through the next door kitchen now and then you're asked it's in the next door kitchen yeah well can you get some fresh air no because it started on the 16th floor and
01:29:03 because it started on the 16th floor and it's just spreading all the stuff flying out the windows when you say it started on the 16th floor what was what was in your mind you tried my of my partner had
01:29:14 your mind you tried my of my partner had received a message saying that there was a fire on the 16th floor of the block that I was living in right okay so I dismissed a bet it started on the 4th and I thought that's the way it's
01:29:25 and I thought that's the way it's happened to you yes
01:29:30 and you say on page three if you go over the page and if you can block it up in the meantime I mean I presume it's not safe to go
01:29:41 I mean I presume it's not safe to go outside and you say no it's all smoke mm-hmm
01:29:46 mm-hmm what were you referring to there are the communal Hall Glendon okay and at the end of that call is essentially you're giving the advice all you are given the
01:29:57 giving the advice all you are given the advice on page four two-thirds of the way down try and keep calm you see that you see it says they're trying to keep calm and if you can get to a window and
01:30:08 calm and if you can get to a window and get some fresh air and block up anywhere where the smokes coming okay thanks but make sure thank you make sure they check on me thank you yeah yeah when that call ended what did you expect
01:30:19 when that call ended what did you expect would happen next as expected lightened to five or ten minutes that the fireman was gonna appear right did you have any thoughts about evacuating yeah and why didn't you
01:30:32 about evacuating yeah and why didn't you it's too dark I'm losing her my wife and my children too dark we're in the the communal cooking there's no common farts yeah it just was smoky now for that but it wasn't as dark in Norway and the under
01:30:44 wasn't as dark in Norway and the under lounges it was outside the front door I still thought it was safe at that point did you smoke from the fire itself before you make this call did you look
01:30:56 before you make this call did you look again out of your front door and chair and Lobby conditions mm-hmm yeah was that before or after you think mrs. Lewis left her flat I looked again after so this is this call is made after she
01:31:08 so this is this call is made after she leaves her flat but and after you've checked again yeah yeah I just kept checking to see if anyone was coming for us and it was only lifeline to to get
01:31:19 us and it was only lifeline to to get out wasn't it so I just wanted to keep checking and it was another fire on the landing and we weren't trapped permanently so I just kept checking now
01:31:28 yeah now the next call you make is about six minutes later at 144 33 that's lfb three to four you could just have the
01:31:42 three to four you could just have the first page of that again mr. Smith at the top of the page you can see the time of this call as the second set of figures from the right as oh one 44:33
01:31:53 figures from the right as oh one 44:33 and the transcript of the call starts on page two operate a fire brigade caller we're stuck in the flat in one it in 95 okay
01:32:04 okay please help us I've got two children all right what floor are you on 12th right the 12th right you're well away from the fire that's on the 4th floor okay and then you say yeah but it's starting
01:32:16 then you say yeah but it's starting is there any smoke in your flat yeah because the bits of Ember of us have set a fire in next to number 96 it's gone next door say that again the fire embers
01:32:28 next door say that again the fire embers have started a fire in the flat next door as well the front it's come up through the windows it's gone into number 96 Greenfield Tower mm-hmm
01:32:42 and then you say
01:32:48 at the top of the next page and what's on fire next door the kitchen the kitch what flat number is that 96 this is information that you're already given to
01:33:02 information that you're already given to Lundy to the control room isn't it yeah so what were your thoughts about at that time about whether or not they'd actually really understood what you were doing what the conditions were on your floor well there was no one on the land
01:33:15 floor well there was no one on the land in putting out the fire so I just what I tell him again and obviously after my partner have got photo with a message saying that it was on 16 if I fought the embers had fell down and tilde operator told me it was actually the fourth floor
01:33:26 told me it was actually the fourth floor that's when I said it's must have come up then sobs is explaining to me something it's in the kitchen so if they do come up you know ice in the kitchen and it's you know it's close
01:33:37 the kitchen and it's you know it's close to us now it's next door now a little bit further down page 3 of the transcript just below halfway you say
01:33:49 transcript just below halfway you say all the front doors with towels as you're answering the question what have you blocked it with and you say all the front doors with towels but it's coming in please get us out yeah what was
01:34:03 in please get us out yeah what was coming in what was mine clue smoke where was smoke coming into your flat from at this stage I don't know it was just in the flat I don't know where was I presume now he might have been through the windows all right because the front
01:34:15 the windows all right because the front door was sealed up with towels and maybe when I was opening the door but it was just
01:34:18 just despite to creep in could you see any smoke coming through your windows or around your windows no you couldn't notice the whole room my eldest daughter at one stage we put her under the kitchen bought my children keep him low
01:34:30 kitchen bought my children keep him low with the towers and then she said it's more smoky down here than it was up right so smoky and lower down them higher up yeah she said underneath you
01:34:41 higher up yeah she said underneath you seen on the breakfast bar so I don't know if the smoke was getting caught against a barn and rising but there so it's had to move it from now yeah I see
01:34:50 and did you see did you notice any smoke coming from around your front door at that stage no now going back to your
01:35:02 that stage no now going back to your statement first statement a paragraph 42
01:35:12 this is before you made the call this is page 10 I had a feeling that the firefighters would not get to us and that we would have to leave why was that
01:35:24 that we would have to leave why was that why did you have that feeling at that stage because I had already told him about the kitchen
01:35:37 what made you think the firefighters wouldn't get to you well they didn't managed to get up to put the fire out and then mrs. Lewis is flat so if they have input it was getting there what how was he gonna get
01:35:49 getting there what how was he gonna get to us and plus you know they kept saying they're coming they're coming but no one came right now get back to your call you
01:36:03 came right now get back to your call you say at the bottom of page 3 of the transcript this is 3:00 to 4:00
01:36:18 it's it's coming from everywhere you see you say that it's coming from everywhere yeah I think that's a reference it's clear in the context that's a reference to the smoke yeah when you said
01:36:33 to the smoke yeah when you said everywhere what did you what did you mean well all the rooms that we was told to stay in that's what it was coming from ever it was in the lounge it was in that sitting room I mean the kitchen was in the hallway and if you go onto page 4 a little bit
01:36:47 and if you go onto page 4 a little bit later in the call the bottom of the page you can see that the operator says is there smoke coming in through the window and you say yeah and then you the top of
01:36:59 and you say yeah and then you the top of the next page she says okay right well you need to keep and and you say it's blowing it's all around and when you said that the smoke was or answer to a
01:37:11 said that the smoke was or answer to a question that the smoke was coming in through the window I presumed because that was that it was not gonna free the front door it had to be coming from somewhere and the only place we knew we had gaps was the windows right and I
01:37:23 had gaps was the windows right and I said it was swirling and so it was like it was being blown it wasn't just just wasn't just Verizon it was moving around was it moving around in the living room yeah as well as the kitchen yeah could
01:37:36 yeah as well as the kitchen yeah could you see where the smoke was being moved from when I'd rather like it was like a cloud it was just moving right because we didn't have a door or now kitchen didn't separate from the lounge because
01:37:47 didn't separate from the lounge because I said I made into a breakfast bar so almost the whole two rooms was open plan moving on in the transcript of that call to page 7
01:38:12 you are given some advice halfway down you say it's the operator says and if it gets any worse call us back okay and you say it's worse how worse can it be everyone's telling people to jump in
01:38:24 everyone's telling people to jump in that I need to get out just pausing there when you say everyone's telling people to jump in that what were you referring to well I could hear people screaming possibly saying don't jump it's unto me at the time to get out jump
01:38:36 it's unto me at the time to get out jump jump but it was probably saying don't jump the bucket here because at one stage I opened a kitchen window get some fresh air just quickly and then I could hear all the noise people then I closed
01:38:47 hear all the noise people then I closed it back and that's when I said to her and she says ain't about not to jump the 14th floor or something um she does what come to that it's exactly what she says
01:38:58 come to that it's exactly what she says but my question really is where knees with the everyone is that everyone you could hear down below on a ground level yeah not people ringing you know no no no and then the operator says okay well
01:39:09 no and then the operator says okay well you can't jump from the 14th floor just yeah yeah and you say no 12 12th 12th floor
01:39:16 floor yeah you can't jump from that no but okay we'll get somebody to you as soon as we can okay okay which I even know what floor was on us I mean so he's gonna get someone to us but she still send a 14th floor and there was it was it was mayhem a lot going on I said what
01:39:32 it was mayhem a lot going on I said what when she said four teams and you said no twelve to twelve what did you think I just fall was upset we're not gonna go and then the operator continues at the
01:39:45 and then the operator continues at the top of page aid thank thank you call us back if it gets worse okay call us someone someone do you know someone's trapped on the 11th floor now what were you referring to there another message
01:39:56 you referring to there another message dad one of our neighbors was trapped right how did you get that message someone sent a message to my partner
01:40:05 and then the operator a year we've got people all over we've got people coming to get them okay okay all right thank you good bye after that call ended
01:40:17 you good bye after that call ended what impression were you left with about what your choices were either stay or leave you know on our own and how would
01:40:29 leave you know on our own and how would you make that what but first of all who would make that decision did you think me how would you make that decision how do you go about it I made it I just said we gotta go
01:40:44 and then we have the next call which starts at 154 SLFP 3 3 2 which I'll come to in a moment before we do so did the
01:41:01 to in a moment before we do so did the smoke it conditions in your flat then get worse after this call that we've just looked at yeah worst I could feel I could actually fill the walls hot now because obviously the fire must have spread from the kitchen next door and
01:41:14 spread from the kitchen next door and where I was up and down the hallway my daughter's bedroom was there never one was behind the hallway that we've built where the extract was because I keep going in and out and I felt the thought
01:41:26 going in and out and I felt the thought the woman I could feel the heat the water's hot can I ask you to look then back at your planet I WS 9 3 1 which is
01:41:38 back at your planet I WS 9 3 1 which is the plan you exhibited as rs once your statement and just see if we can identify the hot wall yeah there's the plan on the screen can you just tell us which wall you felt getting hot so the
01:41:50 which wall you felt getting hot so the wall yeah I'm at this bedroom in here right jet adjacent to my neighbor's chases the neighbors
01:42:00 okay and when you say hot you could you put your hand on it did you yeah there's like a radio it was hot like a radiator yeah it was hot it was hot hot enough to
01:42:12 yeah it was hot it was hot hot enough to keep your hand on or to so hot that you had to take your hand away I just I touched it was hot and I knew I did I was panicking they come through the wall you know it's Donette each other know if
01:42:23 you know it's Donette each other know if it was if it the fires gonna come through I didn't know what I just touched it and then I said I don't know this it's near now this you know it's gonna be in our flat within minutes
01:42:43 and while you were in the flat prior to before this call her final call at 154 had the smoke changed at all yeah he said you got worse could you've got a
01:42:54 said you got worse could you've got a lot less I've got a lot worse it was not as dark as that but it was dark right it's darker than it was previously and what does it smell like plastic just
01:43:07 what does it smell like plastic just it's that horrible smell horrible smell did have a physical effect on you yeah it was coughing you said we've got wet towels but what about your family yes exactly the same
01:43:26 before you made this call did you see any signs of fire in your flat I'm not know at that time not in the flat of the windows that did set on fire in the end here before we it's gone
01:43:37 in the end here before we it's gone no my door was that bedroom there the flames had spread actually on the window frame outside yes did any flame come
01:43:49 frame outside yes did any flame come through the windows no and I think in your statement you say there were fire embers coming through the window that's
01:44:00 embers coming through the window that's paragraph 51 of your statement tribute perhaps we just look at that
01:44:13 it's a page page 11 of your statement you say I told him this is Jerry McCall but the fire was coming into the flats
01:44:25 but the fire was coming into the flats bits of ember were coming through the air vents yeah what do you mean when you refer to air vents there whatever air vents in the kitchen in the kitchen as
01:44:36 vents in the kitchen in the kitchen as they put vents in Owenton so that's the automatic extractor fan for nature yeah some units come into flats I didn't say alpha that's gone into flat because that's why I fall we was spread in because at one stage we
01:44:48 was spread in because at one stage we actually saw me my partner actually saw a flame go across right across the window just to out like her yes like when you light a fuse on a dynamite
01:44:59 when you light a fuse on a dynamite stick you swing right past our window right so just to be clear you didn't see any embers or flames in your Fleur not for making this long last call no no that's that's clear
01:45:15 now we then have your 999 call at oh one 5414 and that's lfb three three two and
01:45:29 5414 and that's lfb three three two and it starts on three three to page two at the top fire brigade sir please help us it's getting worse we're in the 95s people are something on
01:45:40 we're in the 95s people are something on the landings I don't know what to do I've got two young children in here right you're on the twelfth floor yes please send that's you making this call is it yeah that's me
01:45:51 call is it yeah that's me and then just picking up a few points from it still on page two you say
01:46:02 from it still on page two you say halfway down the page can you tell them to come for me now because everyone is leaving it's getting it's banging and everything it's come I can hear it on my
01:46:14 everything it's come I can hear it on my wall next door please I can hear the far on the wall next door from the kitchen mmm-hmm didn't what could you do what could you hear okay I got here roaring
01:46:25 could you hear okay I got here roaring yeah through the wall through the wall mm-hmm
01:46:38 and where could you hear that roaring in my daughter's bedroom die made
01:46:49 on page four of this transcript you say at the bottom of the page it's outside
01:47:00 at the bottom of the page it's outside please please it's outside my door please and then over the top of page five operator one says right the fire is outside your door now yes please mm-hmm
01:47:13 outside your door now yes please mm-hmm did you actually see fire in the communal table no no I presume because of the noise where my daughter's room was I made it was near the extractor fan that was next door to my neighbor's so
01:47:26 that was next door to my neighbor's so that was the walls were plasterboard yes there was the Congress was to shell so because I could hear it I presumed has come through in that vent now and it's
01:47:37 come through in that vent now and it's spread outside I see so that's when I knew I fought now we're trapped and right like I said my the children's window frames was burning so I presumed
01:47:48 window frames was burning so I presumed it's all around us now and that's when I made decision that was gonna go and that's what I was saying simply scum and ghosts cuz otherwise we're gonna be trapped
01:48:00 otherwise we're gonna be trapped shopping ahead in the call to page 26 of the transcript if we can please this is some time into the call you say at the top of the page page 26
01:48:15 what's happening there the fires been spreading on the landing and then you say over the door something I need to get out I need to get out when you say
01:48:27 get out I need to get out when you say it's spreading all you said spreading on the landing what were you referring to they're the same I said I fought it come fruit there we go and then because of the noise or so you could hear it
01:48:38 the noise or so you could hear it clearly I wasn't up in the front door I thought maybe it's on my front door right I see and that's what I'm saying I need to get I need to get out because I fought they won't get to us now yes
01:48:55 fought they won't get to us now yes going on to page 29 of the transcript
01:49:04 at the bottom of the page last third of the page you say okay are you okay love yes where are you darling they should be here now were you
01:49:17 they should be here now were you speaking to your family at that's known and assuming that you were yeah I've closed all the doors it's not helping so you're speaking to the operator of it yeah yeah yeah if the one
01:49:28 operator of it yeah yeah yeah if the one on the landing otherwise I'd run to the stairs no I can't get through that what would be burning on the landing oh all the bloody
01:49:39 when you said I can't get through that what were you referring to well I forty feet spread onto the landing then obviously there's pipes running through gas pipes so forth if we run through that then his chances are
01:49:52 run through that then his chances are getting now are still going to be thin base I don't in my mind I still said to my partner we gotta go so what do you say what would be burning on the landing were you asking the operator or asking
01:50:05 were you asking the operator or asking yourself boxing myself and all the bloody pipes and just come to me must be the pipes now see so that's a question and answer to yourself yeah because I
01:50:16 and answer to yourself yeah because I was panicking and then operator well okay what is it you can see how there can you see anything at all and you say just dark and yellow mm-hmm the dark I understand the yellow can you help me
01:50:28 understand the yellow can you help me what was yellow I no idea I look for a despite how I didn't open a door at this stage and I maybe my my mind's eye they look yellow because I could just see dark and light light bits so I just said
01:50:42 dark and light light bits so I just said it was a fire right could you see any lights coming from the communal lobby yeah you could hmm like that's what must have been the yellow light they must
01:50:53 have been the yellow light they must have been something because it was it was there was some when I looked through dust by hole there was something right but the ever seen yellow a yellow light before Denova at this point I presumed it was the fly I did presume it was the
01:51:05 it was the fly I did presume it was the fire I really did okay so you thought that was flames yeah I thought maybe she left the door when she run away this is Lois but I didn't know for sure I didn't know if it would spread I could hear the roar in so right
01:51:26 and then if I can just jump back a little bit you say at 18 paragraph 18 I'm sorry to take you
01:51:41 at 18 paragraph 18 I'm sorry to take you back in the transcript
01:51:53 you say at the bottom of the page yeah it's on the landing you see that yeah yeah Oh our windows our windows are on fire now
01:52:04 our windows our windows are on fire now mm-hmm
01:52:05 mm-hmm please the officers must be able to see this from outside I'm begging you sir it's there's no way out yeah now when you said the windows were on fire which windows were you referring to my
01:52:18 windows were you referring to my youngest daughter's bedroom window right said this stage in the call is this right that fire now starts to come through your flat windows yeah my windows is on fire look even when I
01:52:30 windows is on fire look even when I looked at it it looked like the glass was burning also which I thought was strange but the whole the whole window entrance was burning and then on page 20
01:52:43 entrance was burning and then on page 20 you say yeah flat 95 there's fire coming in the windows a couple of times mm-hmm that looks that looks like operator one but who was speaking then
01:52:58 operator one but who was speaking then can you can you help me with that who want speaking to me does give you some context the operator one says the fire is in your window can you move away from the window yeah Michelle and I think
01:53:10 the window yeah Michelle and I think you've explained in your second statement what that's about no stay down there no don't send the Pharma narc yeah flat 95 there's fire coming in the windows something a couple of times who's who is saying that
01:53:23 of times who's who is saying that there's fire coming in the windows me you right okay
01:53:30 and when you saw fire coming in the windows you said just a minute ago that was in your daughter's bedroom is that yeah that's the bedroom with the external window yeah the external window outside can you
01:53:42 yeah the external window outside can you describe for us what it looked like when fire was coming through the windows it was on fire it was just flames on fire with the flames inside your flat no no no no it
01:53:55 flames inside your flat no no no no it was turn or burn in okay but the wood the glass was burning but it looked like it so I knew as normal things glass to do it next minute it's kind of shower explode and be in the flat okay so the
01:54:07 explode and be in the flat okay so the only option to do now is close the door and then hope someone you know I'm trying to please say please please come now before it's too late all right what did the come a point when you did see fire coming through the
01:54:20 you did see fire coming through the window not into the house now learn to deflect no just to pick up where we were on this same page as a reference hit and
01:54:32 on this same page as a reference hit and Michelle
01:54:37 you've explained in your second statement to the inquiry that this is actually your sister it's called Sharon mm-hmm yeah and they've we've got a reference for that
01:54:49 they've we've got a reference for that in your statement you first calling her at 149 yeah and that's paragraph 47 of your statement we don't need to look at that how had she learned about the fire
01:55:00 that how had she learned about the fire do you know I told her mmm my partner called her parents to say goodbye if anything happens you've got to talk to your love so I called my sister to say if we don't make it out to say bye to
01:55:14 if we don't make it out to say bye to everyone now while you were on this call to 999 mr. Smith were you also on your mobile phone to Sharon mmm-hmm yeah what
01:55:28 mobile phone to Sharon mmm-hmm yeah what phone did you use to speak to the 999 operator and the landline landline right we know the first call was made on the landline see we're all the calls no no no made on your landline yeah when you
01:55:45 no made on your landline yeah when you were speaking to Sharon do you know whether she was speaking to anybody on the ground at the time yeah she spoke to someone to a couple of firemen farland
01:55:56 someone to a couple of firemen farland yeah she told she said to me they'll be coming for you did she did Sharon pass on any advice from the firefighters on the ground to you that she'd received no just to say that I was gonna come for us
01:56:07 just to say that I was gonna come for us they're coming not to give up right
01:56:15 just moving forward then in the transcript to page 39
01:56:32 halfway down the page caller says oh listen there's explosions operator one yeah what you can hear explosions yes
01:56:44 yeah what you can hear explosions yes yes can't you hear them okay and what were you what were you referring to what could you hear okay here bangs bangs yeah inside the flat or answer outside
01:57:06 now on this call we can hear repeated statements from the control room operator to the effect that the
01:57:17 operator to the effect that the firefighters will come and rescue you so just for example while we're on page 39 you can see 1/3 of the way down yeah we're gonna get you out okay we're gonna
01:57:28 we're gonna get you out okay we're gonna get you I'm gonna get to you just a second or two later at the bottom of the page the operator one says right well we are coming to you as quick as we can
01:57:39 are coming to you as quick as we can there's a lot coming towards you now okay they know exactly where you are please okay and that is the kind of thing that's repeated what did that but
01:57:55 thing that's repeated what did that but did that give influence what you did next all you did during the call and after the call yeah in what way well we we was gone it was going to
01:58:08 well we we was gone it was going to leave and then my partner didn't want us to leave she don't want us to lose our children in the stairs or if we lost one another so she said let's stay where we
01:58:20 another so she said let's stay where we are
01:58:21 are so when when when they find us eventually don't know that we're a family
01:58:31 you ripes keep going
01:58:38 if I could just take you back a little bit in the corner I'm sorry to keep tossing around in it when it covers lots of different ideas in different places if you go back please to page nine of
01:58:54 if you go back please to page nine of the statement
01:58:58 the top of the page you say so this is quite early on just to give it a time as shortly after 150 for maybe a minute or two later than that you say no no we
01:59:11 two later than that you say no no we just have to get to that staircase I need oxygen masks inaudible to put this fire out and we'll get down the stairs because it's meant to be facing the staircase they say okay but if there's smoke in the staircases well you're not
01:59:22 smoke in the staircases well you're not going to be able to see where you're going no well they can put the fire in 96 then because it's really bad
01:59:37 you did you understand that let me ask it this way what what advice at this stage did you understand that you were being given to stay to stay by 40 forgot
01:59:55 being given to stay to stay by 40 forgot to the fire staircase it will be clear I didn't clear what's the fire exit I presumed the older smoke had been gathering on the landing and the flat and then the stairs would be that's why I said fresh air off will be clear and
02:00:08 I said fresh air off will be clear and then at page 10 just picking up on that last answered you you you you say two-thirds of the way down that page are we safe in here though and the operator
02:00:20 we safe in here though and the operator says look as safe as you can be yes we're going to get to you as soon as we can what was your understanding at that
02:00:32 can what was your understanding at that stage of the call represented your only chance of survival that wasn't that was the only chance of survival for someone
02:00:43 the only chance of survival for someone to come for us to stay and be rescued hmm could we left it so long yeah because you left it too long
02:00:54 now moving at the head to the end of the call towards the end of the call
02:01:07 you we start at page 42 two-thirds of the way down the page and you say hold
02:01:19 the way down the page and you say hold on oh no my it's on fire outside on my window we've got to get out of here now we've got to get out please cath ring tell them to come got to make
02:01:32 cath ring tell them to come got to make a move
02:01:32 a move I've got to get out I know it's difficult because this is a long call but does this was there a change in the conditions fire or smoke that led to it
02:01:44 conditions fire or smoke that led to it was there was things falling now from above and loads of stuff was has fallen go and past the windows
02:01:58 and when you say it's on fire on my on my window what was outside what was on fire the window outside the window outside could you and it's difficult to be specific in this in these terrible
02:02:10 be specific in this in these terrible circumstances but could you actually see what it was that was burning outside your window to hold the whole thing right
02:02:17 right even I said ten times the glass looked like it was burning it didn't break the whole the whole thing look like it was on fire and then turning the page to
02:02:29 on fire and then turning the page to page 43 you say the third we'll just put four halfway down you're asked how can you see flames your door yeah not at the
02:02:40 you see flames your door yeah not at the door on the on the it's like a little bit maybe it's debris it's just that it's high it's high then my chest is hurting again the smoke all over this place wet the towel girls how far are they right just stay with me stay with
02:02:53 they right just stay with me stay with me okay I'm just talking with people and then you say get us out of here Michelle are they coming etc when the operator says I'm just talking with people could you hear him talking in the background
02:03:06 you hear him talking in the background to somebody else in the control room the car remember okay and then just after you say get us out of here Michelle and say what you say there do you see you
02:03:17 say what you say there do you see you say right operator one says right we're gonna tell you to leave okay but you need to and you say huh yeah and then
02:03:28 need to and you say huh yeah and then operator one says you're gonna have to leave a flat okay but you you have to stay on the phone with me was that a what did you think about that at that
02:03:39 what did you think about that at that moment I feel why they're telling me that now why didn't they say it on the first kwame to leave it's more it's hard to leave now right and that that change that we've seen with did
02:03:51 that change that we've seen with did that represent a change in your mind as to what you should do now yeah yeah if they're not coming and she said I've got a lived and I know they're not coming now so now it's just announced to time
02:04:02 now so now it's just announced to time isn't it over the top of page 44 you say we've got to leave the flat question mark why did you ask that question I don't know maybe I'll ask maybe it so
02:04:16 don't know maybe I'll ask maybe it so did not come in and it's like so did not come in so we got a live one I one great one says yeah get all the towels you can okay and you say yeah but they said the
02:04:27 okay and you say yeah but they said the man on the phone is telling them do we leave really yep operator one yeah okay you say are you sure sir yeah why were you asking him that I want
02:04:41 yeah why were you asking him that I want to make sure you knew what we was walking out into if they had reports back that it was so for us to leave because all the way through they've been telling us to stayed it was safe there
02:04:54 at that steak what influence did the change in advice from the operator have on what you would do next well like I
02:05:06 on what you would do next well like I said I wanted to go from earlier on I talked to my partner
02:05:14 I fought we should still chance it and go by the audit also took into account on my partner's said that if we if one of us makes it out and the rest don't
02:05:26 of us makes it out and the rest don't you know so I thought about all day at time like what the consequences if I you know if it was to leave and I got out and my wife that children died so it's
02:05:37 and my wife that children died so it's just it was just the time just just to stay now what would be left to be and then you see that operator one gives you
02:05:48 then you see that operator one gives you some advice about towels get your wife and children everybody holding hands and make your way to the stairwell to make your way down stairs okay and you say oh no no the man has told us to leave the
02:06:01 no no the man has told us to leave the man's told us to leave the farm in love on the phone she doesn't want to leave on the phone that was my partner they don't want to leave and then operator
02:06:13 don't want to leave and then operator says sorry and then you say oh here they are here they are what happened at that moment Flyman appeared but did they
02:06:24 moment Flyman appeared but did they knock on the door I can't remember they said they did but I can't remember I've wide open the door to look out when they said you got to leave before I opened the door to see what the conditions were but the gentleman said
02:06:36 conditions were but the gentleman said he knocks but I thought the door was open
02:06:45 mr. chairman we've got a few more questions not that much more to do but it might be having going for 4050 minutes might be appropriate now to take
02:06:58 minutes might be appropriate now to take the break yes and if everyone ever anybody's got any extra questions that they think I should it is it doesn't even touch dude it says I think it would be good fizzle to have a short break in that so if you Knight give the usher and
02:07:11 that so if you Knight give the usher and they're talking about the revenues please will resume at ten past twelve all right thank you
02:07:26 right 10 plus 12
02:10:03 you
02:14:14 you
02:17:11 this could you ask mr. Smith to come back please thank you
02:17:33 when mr. Smith yep thank you carry on thank you thank you very much mr. millet mr. Smith thank you for coming back to us thank you and can I just go back then to the transcript for the 999 call the
02:17:45 to the transcript for the 999 call the last one you made just before the firefighters arrived page 44 of the transcript please it's lfb 33 to page 44
02:17:58 [Music]
02:18:01 on that page you can see that halfway down the operator says get all the towels you can and this is after you've
02:18:15 towels you can and this is after you've been told to leave you get all the towels you can cover them in water right oh no yeah okay you need to wrap them around you okay get your wife and your children everybody holding hands and make your way to the stairwell and make
02:18:27 make your way to the stairwell and make your way downstairs okay my question is did you find that advice of assistance no in what way it was too late in terms of towels and wet towels did
02:18:40 in terms of towels and wet towels did you think that was odd the towels yeah but we've been doing it anyway from the they told us to do the beginning now
02:18:53 you then leave with the firefighters can you remember how many firefighters came into your flat one happening one when
02:19:05 into your flat one happening one when you came out with that did you go out with that firefighter no he walked in front of us I stopped by the fire exit
02:19:16 front of us I stopped by the fire exit door staircase door whether other firefighters with him no did he give you any instructions as to what you should do
02:19:26 do yeah what what instructions did he give you to take a breath of oxygen and then just keep going down maybe more firemen or no out
02:19:35 or no out take a breath of oxygen from what from him from his boss did he give each of your blast from his mask he did but you missed my partner I never found out right how did you find your way across
02:19:49 right how did you find your way across the communal Lobby once you'd left your flat how I'll feel in the wall and from knowing living in there knowing the way do you remember the world
02:20:01 do you remember the world destroy the walls he didn't hit into the walls right on the door and then you once she was past that wall you know it's just straight to the left keep going that way and you was there do you have any
02:20:13 and you was there do you have any recollection of whether when you left your flat you shut the front door behind you yeah my partner did
02:20:22 when you were travelling across the communal Lobby did the firefighter have a torch or somewhere than luminate in your passage no not I remember I think I was on his he had something on his coat
02:20:35 was on his he had something on his coat here with a light on it but not in his hand now how were you able to follow him just trotted away towards a fire exit door okay can you describe the
02:20:48 door okay can you describe the conditions in the lobby at that stage no it was black thick black smoke horrible smell how did it compare with the conditions that the last occasion that you looked out of your front door a
02:21:00 that you looked out of your front door a hundred times worse hmm did you have a wet towel over your of your face at the
02:21:13 wet towel over your of your face at the beginning I did yeah the beginning did the smoke heavily physical effect on you at that point no not not not till we got in the stairs right what about your
02:21:24 in the stairs right what about your family
02:21:25 family well we all had towels at that time until we got into the stairs do you remember anything particular about the
02:21:36 remember anything particular about the temperature in the lobby no it was hot it's hot yeah it's hot can you tell us and it's difficult but how hot compare it with something you've experienced before
02:21:47 experienced before I'm just hot really hot it's hot that I started sweating straightaway really yeah so hotter than a summers day yeah
02:21:58 yeah so hotter than a summers day yeah yeah yeah yeah you then go into the stairwell do you remember who opened the
02:22:12 stairwell do you remember who opened the stair door the fireman it was it closed before he did that yeah okay and did he hold the door open for you and your family to parcel no did he go through it
02:22:23 family to parcel no did he go through it and you followed him he went for it yeah do you remember touching the door into the stairwell and pushing it at all
02:22:34 the stairwell and pushing it at all yourself
02:22:35 yourself I forgot the name of my four foot did you notice any particular pressure back against you no now in your statement and this is paragraph sixty-seven it's on
02:22:50 this is paragraph sixty-seven it's on paper on page fourteen your first statement you describe the conditions in the stairs let's go to that
02:23:03 you is saying when we push the staircase door open it was resting it was so hot
02:23:13 was the temperature in the stairwell hotter than in the lobby yeah it seemed ha ha sir yeah because it was not narrow yeah it did seem a lot hotter yeah it seemed like you've been
02:23:24 hotter yeah it seemed like you've been hit with a force of fire just hot yeah it was hot yeah and you say you could not see anything on the stairs no was
02:23:37 not see anything on the stairs no was the towel covering your head or could you actually see like this from my front face another hand over the mouth with the towel yeah did the smoke affect your eyes in any way yeah what in what way
02:23:48 eyes in any way yeah what in what way well it's stinging because it was so hot there was a slight right could you open your eyes yeah yeah I kept em open yeah and you say it was you couldn't see anything
02:23:57 anything yeah my eldest daughter kept his clothes all away but I had mine open could you see any lights at all no could you smell
02:24:09 see any lights at all no could you smell the smoke
02:24:10 the smoke yeah but was the smoke as if I suppose if it's dark it's difficult but could you compare the darkness or thickness of the smoke that you saw in the stairwell when you first got into it with this
02:24:21 when you first got into it with this with the smoke in the lobby as you crossed it it was similar it was simply similar could you smell it yeah what does it smell of burning
02:24:33 yeah what does it smell of burning plastics same as before but this time it had an effect because eventually I lost my tell and then outside they're not good obviously I could fill my nostrils I felt like I was burning my nose mmm it
02:24:47 I felt like I was burning my nose mmm it went like it was going up the smell was burning right and what about rich in your nose whatever any any other part of your oh yeah my throat my there because I lost
02:25:00 yeah my throat my there because I lost my towel but obviously my youngest daughter she burnt her throat she wanted to go back upstairs yeah I had to lift her up from carrier so I couldn't do
02:25:13 her up from carrier so I couldn't do that with it cell she lost her towel my lost mine so it's going down blindly and obviously breathing it all in as you
02:25:27 obviously breathing it all in as you went down the stairs do you remember the order in which you went I know Honoka Georgina was at the front because I think the fireman took her and then I'm
02:25:39 think the fireman took her and then I'm not I remember at one stage I remember cash was behind me - no I mean I lifted up my daughter but then I fought she went past me but I can't remember I can remember as you went down the stairs do
02:25:52 remember as you went down the stairs do you remember whether there was any change in the smoke conditions yeah it got hot a lot hotter and a little bit brighter I got a little lower and I fought I thought there was a fire on one
02:26:04 fought I thought there was a fire on one of the landings because Wendy was coming down it got bright like a like a glow where could she see the glow coming from through one of the fire doors so in my
02:26:16 through one of the fire doors so in my mind I presume well that must be the fourth floor but maybe it wasn't I just assumed because the notifier was everywhere I presumed I must be getting we must be getting lower to the ground I
02:26:31 don't much much remember really much after I remember oxygen for oxygen and my daughter I remember getting a bit lower down I
02:26:42 I remember getting a bit lower down I remember someone taking my daughter off of me I remember her weight being lifted off of me and then I remember the fireman was he pulled war over my face and then I was in the lobby and where
02:27:01 and then I was in the lobby and where everyone was and then a police officer took them out and showed me my oldest daughter and then I swear my wife and my other child was honest I'm not leaving
02:27:14 other child was honest I'm not leaving without them and then he said they round round ever side and then he took us around there and it was it was on it was on a big green mat it was two mats a red one and a green one and then it was
02:27:28 one and a green one and then it was taken to hospital
02:27:35 when you first saw this glow coming through one of the door into the stairwell yes the door was that door open that was closed it was a glass on it by its light so I just fought i
02:27:46 it by its light so I just fought i person was on the fourth because it looked like it was it looked like a fire look orange and the rest all the way down was this dark right in my mind that a four oh it must be the fourth so I got
02:27:58 a four oh it must be the fourth so I got fired to go did the smoke conditions change as you got lower yeah god of it a little bit thinner I'd say and then it was at the beginning but by this time
02:28:10 was at the beginning but by this time I'd already breathed in so much I didn't I don't really know but it did seem a little bit not as dark did there come a
02:28:21 little bit not as dark did there come a time when the smoke thinned out that you could see the lights in the stairwell when I was dragged into the lobby there were some stairs I go to the lobby
02:28:32 were some stairs I go to the lobby I remember free fireman told me pull him help me out and I think then it was there was a light yeah it wasn't like he took a breath and it was this fresh air and it was different then
02:28:47 and it was different then then just looking at the question of temperature during your descent you say it started off and there's a lot lesser than it was in the the lobby you'd come across you know on your floor did did it
02:29:00 across you know on your floor did did it get hotter as he went down it's hard to say because I was sweating anyway and we've carry my child I was I was I was hot already so I didn't really notice to change as plus the fireman I wanted to
02:29:13 change as plus the fireman I wanted to I'm a poured water over me which calmed me down a lot mmm I can't really to say if the heat changed along now where did the firemen pour water over you in the staircase in the staircase okay as you
02:29:30 staircase in the staircase okay as you came down the stairway to stairwell did you do you remember any stair any doors to the stairs being held open or being open I don't recall down low do you
02:29:43 open I don't recall down low do you remember seeing any numbering on the on the non non stair walls at all couldn't see numbers couldn't even see in front of your face I had my daughter over my shoulder and I was trying to fill the railings - no but the railings was hot
02:29:54 railings - no but the railings was hot so I keep doing it touching it and then you know could you don't know when the stairs was gonna end did you speak at all during your descent yeah who are you speaking to I'm not
02:30:07 yeah who are you speaking to I'm not sure and someone to help my children get to give us oxygen did you find it easy to speak no
02:30:19 now you I think come out calling to the CCTV picture at you come out of the building at 2:42 17 do you remember
02:30:30 building at 2:42 17 do you remember roughly how long roughly how long it took you to come down from the 12th floor no idea and you described in your answers just a little bit ago this
02:30:43 answers just a little bit ago this morning about your treatment where did you receive treatment once he got outside the tower um brown butter kenzan new pools by the cleanser and Center
02:30:55 new pools by the cleanser and Center Health Center dared to - big mats and entreated me there and then they took a sports in an ambulance and took us to Ospital
02:31:06 Ospital Chelsea and Westminster yes and were you all taken to the same hospital yeah
02:31:24 yes and can I just go back to ask you for more general question about your flat yeah if you can please be shown the
02:31:35 flat yeah if you can please be shown the plan Rs 1 which is IM q sorry i WS 931 i
02:31:50 WS 931 and I should have asked you this earlier we looked at this before and on the right hand side of the plan you see that somebody's written smoke alarms
02:32:03 that somebody's written smoke alarms installed by Roy Smith yeah and then smoke alarm installed by riding mm-hmm can you just tell us first of all where the smoke alarms you installed were oh my one was in between the bathroom and
02:32:15 my one was in between the bathroom and the toilet it was a battery operated one between the bathroom and the toilet yeah okay but you say between those two yeah in the hall or in the know in the hope that they're very good and what about
02:32:29 that they're very good and what about the smoke alarm installed by Ryden
02:32:33 by the front door in the kitchen okay and do you remember whether you install your smoke alarm before or after writing installed that before before why did you
02:32:45 installed that before before why did you know why writing installed a smoke alarm in the hall what by the front door did you have a discussion with the London Fire Brigade about your smoke alarms no
02:32:56 Fire Brigade about your smoke alarms no did they smoke alarms go off on the night one did when we open the front door in the final time which one the one by the front door
02:33:12 mr. Smith I I'm very grateful to you for your patience in answering all my questions this morning you'll be glad to know I don't have any more questions for you there may be one with maybe being me
02:33:26 you there may be one with maybe being me and I do have a final question for you mr. Smith in addition to your two
02:33:38 mr. Smith in addition to your two ripping witness statements and in addition to everything you've told us this morning is there anything else about what you saw or heard or felt or
02:33:49 about what you saw or heard or felt or smelt yourself on the night of the fire which you think it's important for the Chairman to know well I heard screams I people screaming the noise you know you
02:34:00 people screaming the noise you know you knew there was you knew there was other people when the stairs done if there was the front in front you got behind you but you could you knew there was other people in there with you you assist
02:34:12 people in there with you you assist something that no one should ever have to go for again we went for it which we shouldn't have had to do but it was a summons can deliver me forever I'm sure
02:34:24 summons can deliver me forever I'm sure a lot of people would it was residents also
02:34:31 mr. Smith thank you very much for coming here today and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful their evidence has been very helpful to us there's must remains for me to thank
02:34:42 us there's must remains for me to thank you and your family for assisting us thank you welcome thank you very much I'd like to add my thanks to you clearly had a terrifying experience and I'm
02:34:54 had a terrifying experience and I'm sorry that we've had to ask you to relive it in such detail today but I do want you to understand that it's really very important to us to hear what you have to tell us yeah I do and I'm sorry
02:35:05 have to tell us yeah I do and I'm sorry if it's been a difficult experience for you but you have contributed very much to the investigations yeah thank you very much thank you thank you very much you're free to go now he's
02:35:16 very much you're free to go now he's going to give you the usher if you look after you
02:35:31 yes well mr. chair we now have a little bit of time before the customary lunch break yes which with your permission I would like to use if I can by catching up on some of the reading deficit right
02:35:43 up on some of the reading deficit right so if you would just allow me to do that yes I will then change files as elegantly as I can now are you planning to catch up on some of the reading you
02:35:55 to catch up on some of the reading you failed to do yesterday or the day before or to do some of the reading you'd planned to do today not the latter Oh in
02:36:07 planned to do today not the latter Oh in that case I'll have to pay particular attention since I left yesterday's reading upstairs right
02:36:19 so we are in slight deficit in the rereading that we've had because of the witnesses have come to give evidence what I want to do is to start by reading
02:36:33 what I want to do is to start by reading the rest of the Monday reads that we didn't do yes and I can start with source on shoe care and her statement if I may and this is a statement given to
02:36:52 I may and this is a statement given to us by source and shoe care dated the lead 12th of September 2018 and it's iws quadruple zero one zero eight zero
02:37:11 thank you very much was providing me but sorry I should have asked you whether you have you had it that glad you do it it's on the screen as well the statement
02:37:23 it's on the screen as well the statement of truth mr. chairman is a page at twelve of the statement over the signature of social shoe care and I should just explain for those who aren't
02:37:35 should just explain for those who aren't familiar with the relationships that sauce and shoe care is the sister of Nabil Hassan and Nadia and they share a
02:37:48 Nabil Hassan and Nadia and they share a mother or shared a mother Syria their four siblings and so you'll hear a little bit more about that relationship when we come to some more to kiss to
02:38:00 when we come to some more to kiss to care statements in a moment she gives evidence of lat flat one nine one on the 22nd floor and she says a paragraph to
02:38:11 22nd floor and she says a paragraph to and she wasn't present on the night of the fire but she says I make this statement on behalf of myself and all of my family and close friends that I lost to the fire the immediate family members who I lost in the fire when my mother
02:38:22 who I lost in the fire when my mother Syria to care who I had lived with since 2012 at flat one line one and living at flat one line three just across from us my sister Nadia Chu care her husband Bassam and their three
02:38:34 her husband Bassam and their three children me Erna Fatima and Zainab all of my family who lived in the town had died that night but I only didn't die because I was out that night otherwise they would not be here but would have
02:38:46 they would not be here but would have been burnt to death and then if I can pick it up at paragraph 17 on page 4 she
02:39:01 pick it up at paragraph 17 on page 4 she says after speaking to one of my brothers I headed to the tower I arrived no later than 3:00 a.m. but I cannot be certain of the exact time when I arrived the tower was completely
02:39:12 I arrived the tower was completely ablaze the flames were covering the whole tower and seemed to be getting worse and worse the place was full of police and firemen I was standing at the back near the church and the area was
02:39:23 back near the church and the area was sealed off so I couldn't get any closer all I could do was keep calling my family but the phones were ringing and when they did pick up I couldn't hear what they were saying as I couldn't do
02:39:35 what they were saying as I couldn't do anything I just stood there it was terrible to be standing watching the tower on fire knowing that your family are in there probably burning to death now where I was standing close to the church with my mum's friend's son next
02:39:46 church with my mum's friend's son next to the tower there was a policeman and firemen on the other side of the tape in front of us I told them my family were in there on the 22nd floor they asked me who was in there and I told them the
02:39:57 who was in there and I told them the firemen or the policemen I was talking to ask me which flat number what floor and my family's names I provided all of this information the policeman took down the details on his notepad but I didn't see him call or contact anyone it was
02:40:10 see him call or contact anyone it was sometime after 3 a.m. when I spoke to them I also told them that on the 21st floor my friend Helen Goodrem ghetto mess girl was trapped with her daughter and with her family with a pregnant woman at the same time I was telling
02:40:23 woman at the same time I was telling this information to them I was still trying to get through to my sister her phone would pick up but I could not hear what was being said or who was answering it the policeman told me not to shout I told him my whole family is in there I
02:40:35 told him my whole family is in there I was shouting down the phone to my sister to get out get to the stairs the policeman told me to tell sister to put a wet towel by the door however I couldn't hear any voice on the other end of my sister's phone but it
02:40:47 other end of my sister's phone but it had been picked up by the looks of it I was shouting then I lost the connection I kept on trying to call and it looked like it was being picked up but I couldn't hear anything the policeman wrote down my family's
02:40:59 the policeman wrote down my family's details I think my last contact with my sister was on whatsapp at 2:46 a.m. I understand that my sister Nadia was also talking to Helen on the floor below and
02:41:10 talking to Helen on the floor below and Helen was saying that they were trying to get out she was with the Portuguese family on the 21st floor the woman who was pregnant worked as a receptionist in Helens hair salon I remain near the tower throughout the early hours of the
02:41:21 tower throughout the early hours of the morning in fact until about 9:00 a.m. my brothers and their families arrived but I'm not sure at what time we were just looking at the tower on fire and my flat and my sister's flat here we knew our
02:41:34 and my sister's flat here we knew our family had been where we knew our family had been both my flat and my sisters flat were ablaze and I just prayed that my family had all got out while we were
02:41:45 my family had all got out while we were watching the fire and praying our family had escaped we were asking anyone if we could if they knew anything about our family
02:41:59 and then at page 11 of her statement she gives some additional information and I can just pick that up if I may mr. chairman at paragraph 60 she says I
02:42:12 chairman at paragraph 60 she says I never received any information nor did my mom as far as I am aware about fire safety including what to do in the event of a fire either at the time of moving in or at any time after I'm not aware of
02:42:24 in or at any time after I'm not aware of any checks carried at the tower out by London Fire Brigade at any time prior to the fire
02:42:29 the fire prior to the night of the fire I believed that if there was ever a fire in the tower we should leave the flat as soon as possible the reason for thinking this was from the fire training I received at work and I believe it is
02:42:42 received at work and I believe it is just common sense irrespective of where the fire would be my gut feeling would be to get out as soon as possible in addition to the smoke alarms in our own flat I believe that I had seen smoke alarms on the ceilings in the tower
02:42:54 alarms on the ceilings in the tower communal areas we had a smoke alarm in our own kitchen but I do not know if anyone ever came to check it as my mum was the only one home in the day and as I would be at work our front door had an
02:43:05 I would be at work our front door had an automatic closing device as far as I am aware it was not working fully including probably on the day of the fire it would pull the door to the doorframe to the frame but did not have the power to
02:43:16 frame but did not have the power to fully close it past the latch and to click shut the door was not changed during my time in the tower and no repairs or modifications had been carried out on the door during my time
02:43:27 carried out on the door during my time living in the tower I'm not aware of any electrical installations being carried out in our flat but I would be at work during the day so my mum may have known if such works and she talks about the extractor fan and the lifts as well
02:43:42 and then in paragraph 67 with regard to concerns about fire safety in the tower generally my mom and sister would deal with these things as they were home in the day and I would be at work and like
02:43:54 the day and I would be at work and like all the other statements mr. chairman saw sanju care statement would be taken will be read in full into the record and will be - yes taken into account in full as evidence to the inquiry
02:44:11 we then come to the next witness statement which is iws quadruple zero one zero seven zero which is the statement of mrs. Malik Qiu care it's
02:44:27 statement of mrs. Malik Qiu care it's dated the 12th of September 2018 and it has a statement of truth at page three just above these signature of mrs. Chui care on that page mr. chairman and again
02:44:42 care on that page mr. chairman and again just to put with the family relationships in a bit of context mrs. Malik to care is is married to mr. Nabil Chuco the eldest of the four Chu care
02:44:55 Chuco the eldest of the four Chu care siblings
02:44:56 siblings sawsan being nabeel's younger or elder sister of the two it's also known he and Nadia mrs. Chu care was also married to
02:45:08 Nadia mrs. Chu care was also married to Bassam Chu care who was Nadia's husband Nadia being the youngest of the siblings she explains in paragraph two she says I
02:45:21 she explains in paragraph two she says I was born in and then moved to the UK when I married Nabil my brother Bassam was married to Nabil sister Nadia Nabil and I have three children and she
02:45:32 and I have three children and she explains the ages they were not living in the ground field tower at the time of the fire there the paragraph three she explains a little bit about the family
02:45:44 explains a little bit about the family habits and relationships they had and they're just just three paragraphs or so from the second page of the statement she says under the title leading up to the fire the fire of 14th of June 2017
02:45:57 the fire the fire of 14th of June 2017 that night I remember the call from source M Nabil sister I was awake around five minutes before the phone call it was around 3:00 a.m. when their bill
02:46:08 was around 3:00 a.m. when their bill received the telephone call I was shocked but who would ring that at this time I remember no bill screaming and he turned the television on to watch the news he told me to look at the televisions and I knew straight away it
02:46:20 televisions and I knew straight away it was Grenville tower on he said he had to go there he was screaming and looking for his car keys the children were asleep so I could not go with him I kept calling Nadia and
02:46:32 go with him I kept calling Nadia and Bassam on their phones but they did not answer it was around 3:00 a.m. I sent them text messages and whatsapp messages but I could see they were not online I kept trying for one hour I was screaming
02:46:44 kept trying for one hour I was screaming and crying all the time and she also explains a little bit about the rest of the night and the day after and the aftermath of the fire on her and like
02:46:56 aftermath of the fire on her and like all other statements Malik shoe care statement will be read in full into the record and be fully taken into account by the inquiry as evidence to the inquiry mr. chairman the next statement
02:47:08 inquiry mr. chairman the next statement I wish to read into the record is iws quadruple zero one zero six nine that's the statement for mr. Nabil shoe care
02:47:19 the statement for mr. Nabil shoe care it's dated the 11th of September 2018 and has a statement of truth the page eight above that date and above the
02:47:30 eight above that date and above the signature
02:47:36 and as I've explained nabil shoe care is the eldest of the four siblings and he
02:47:47 as we as we've seen is married to manic I think I may have said that Malik shoe care was the brother of Bassam and that's obviously not the case she was
02:47:59 that's obviously not the case she was his sister and Bassam was Nadia shoe cares husband I think I have explained that his statement explains the family
02:48:10 that his statement explains the family history and paragraph four he explains Nadia married Malik's brother Bassam and they also stayed in southwest London they did temporarily moved to North
02:48:21 they did temporarily moved to North London but then came back to Kensington and Chelsea and moved into flat 193 on the 22nd floor of Grenville Tower with her husband and their three children my niece is me Erna Fatima and sign AB and
02:48:37 niece is me Erna Fatima and sign AB and my mother Sarah Chu care had mobility issues as she was incapacitated with arthritic pain it had also had high blood pressure she was prescribed strong painkillers for an arthritic pain as it was extremely debilitating for her she
02:48:50 was extremely debilitating for her she had acquired tenancy on the same floor in flat one nine one with my sister source and who was not at home on the night of the fire they moved in maybe three or four years after Nadia and then
02:49:03 three or four years after Nadia and then there are some further paragraphs I just wished to read into the record about the concerns about the building prior to the 14th of June 2017 picking it up if I can at that paragraph seven a few months
02:49:15 at that paragraph seven a few months before the fire Nadia had said that there were problems with the electrical equipment in the kitchen and their kitchen appliances packed in due to faulty electrical works she had had to buy a new washing machine and fridge
02:49:26 buy a new washing machine and fridge about four months prior to the fire due to these issues as electrical problems which would render the appliances unworkable I think this was something to do with the power surges after the refurbishment works I know there were
02:49:38 refurbishment works I know there were also problems with the water pressure which was very very weak in all the taps there simply wasn't enough of a flow and Nadia and my mum had to report and complain about this
02:49:50 had to report and complain about this issue eventually they had water pressure motors fitted under the bathtubs to being a Brett of flow of water through the taps this was also around the time of the refurbishment works although again I cannot narrow down the dates
02:50:02 again I cannot narrow down the dates there was a serious issue with the new windows fitted as part of the renovation works
02:50:07 works it was clearly noticeable that they had not been fitted to a satisfactory standard and I would describe that job as shabby
02:50:14 as shabby I noticed the job was not done properly and I recall seeing screws missing it looked like a rush job there were gaps in the window frames and they were very drafty you would assume that a double glazed window would keep the external
02:50:26 glazed window would keep the external noise levels down but it was so noisy you could hear the wind howling and feel the wind and the winter the heating would have been kept on for longer in order to keep the chill out through the gaps and the flats lost so much
02:50:39 gaps and the flats lost so much unnecessary heat the new front door was another issue sometimes it would just slam shut
02:50:45 slam shut such was the draught from inside and it was almost frightening again the new front door did not fit the old frame and there was a huge draft that came from under the door Bassem had to fit draft
02:50:56 under the door Bassem had to fit draft Stoppers to my mother's front door as well as their flat as it was very drafty and also because my sister had a fear of mice coming into their home that the gap was so big you could squeeze your
02:51:07 was so big you could squeeze your fingers between the bottom of the door and the floor and then he continues to deal with the real the boilers and the lifts paragraph 13 he says the hallways
02:51:23 lifts paragraph 13 he says the hallways were always extremely noisy this is due to the extractor fans whenever it was windy you could hear a howling noise in the communal areas it was like a horror movie and then at paragraph 17 we pick
02:51:38 movie and then at paragraph 17 we pick it up a paragraph into his evidence about the night of the fire itself page 5
02:51:46 5 I was asleep on the night of the 13th of June and my sister saw sin rang me to say there was a fire in the Grenville tower it was roughly somewhere between 2:30 a.m. and 2:40 a.m.
02:51:59 2:30 a.m. and 2:40 a.m. I just did not believe her so I turned on the television and the news channels were televising the inferno I tried phoning Nadia but the phone just kept ringing and ringing I called my brother
02:52:10 ringing and ringing I called my brother his Sam to tell him what had happened or to meet me at the tower I told my like to keep trying Nadia and her brother Bassam who were inside the tower then I left home and left Nadia with our three
02:52:22 left home and left Nadia with our three children at home I then rushed down to the tower coincidentally both my brother his Sam and I right both arrived at about the same point in time and I parked under the Westway Sports Center I
02:52:34 parked under the Westway Sports Center I immediately saw the tower on fire the flames had fully engulfed the upper floors my brother his Sam and I devised a plan to separate and go opposite ways
02:52:45 a plan to separate and go opposite ways around the tower in order to increase our chances of getting into the building to save our family members our plan was to go in and rescue them I think this would have been around 3:15 to 3:40 a.m.
02:52:57 would have been around 3:15 to 3:40 a.m. it was total chaos and pandemonium the fire brigade was everywhere and kept coming in everything was cordoned off and the police was shouting at everyone when I tried to get round them they threatened me with a rest we just wanted
02:53:10 threatened me with a rest we just wanted to get in and save them at the time it felt we got so close but in hindsight we must have been about a hundred meters away nevertheless you could see the fire and you could feel the heat although I
02:53:22 and you could feel the heat although I did not see my family at the time I later saw the images in the newspaper of Nadia desperately were waving a makeshift flag from her window near the top of the grenfell tower she epitomized
02:53:33 top of the grenfell tower she epitomized the indescribable desperation that residents had to be rescued on the night I did see their flat up in flames I kept ringing and ringing their phones but to no avail
02:53:44 but to no avail I did not get through to them the darkness turned into daylight and we heard that local buildings such as the Rugby Club and the Portobello Road club were opening as contact centres we
02:53:56 were opening as contact centres we searched those centres for any trace of our loved ones and when we did not find them we reported them as missing we were hopeful that they had left the building and they would be found every time we
02:54:07 and they would be found every time we heard of a new centre opening we would go and do the same we had that there was a telephone line telephone helpline so we started to call that from 9:00 a.m. although it took a while for that service to initiate we
02:54:18 while for that service to initiate we finally got through around 9:30 a.m. we registered our family members as missing once again the tower was still ablaze when we decided to go to the hospitals and in turn both my brother and I
02:54:30 and in turn both my brother and I attended all the local accident and emergency departments some Charles Chelsea Westminster Hammersmith and some Thomas's Hospital and we left then we continued to telephone the list of
02:54:41 continued to telephone the list of hospitals every couple of hours for any new admissions of the to care family we were back and searched the center and
02:54:53 were back and searched the center and like all the other statements you know mr. Chu cares will stand in its entirety as evidence to the inquiry and be taken into account in full I have two
02:55:05 into account in full I have two statements now from a walkways resident from is Nadia el booty the first one is I WS nine four seven and the second one is I
02:55:18 nine four seven and the second one is I WS 1129 the first of those is dated the 10th of July 2000 of 18 and as a statement of truth of page nine
02:55:35 and it is a as it says at paragraph two a translation into English by a translator from an original statement that was made in Arabic and she explains
02:55:47 that was made in Arabic and she explains in paragraph three that she lives that her all lived at Hurst away walk as a council tenant and had lived in her property from 2005 she explains in detail the Grenfell community at
02:56:00 detail the Grenfell community at paragraphs four through to nine and deals with the night of the fire from paragraphs ten hour onwards there one or two paragraphs I just want to read from that yes thank you paragraph eleven mr.
02:56:12 that yes thank you paragraph eleven mr. chairman that pager to Susan I heard a noise coming from outside which sounded like fizzing and crackling our living room opens out onto a balcony and I went down to the balcony to see what was going on I could see a little
02:56:24 what was going on I could see a little bit of smoke coming from behind the tower I'm not sure what time it was but I think it was about 1:30 a.m. as my daughter took a video shortly afterwards which has a time on it and it's timed at 1:38 a.m. and then she explains that she
02:56:38 1:38 a.m. and then she explains that she wasn't worried and she stayed on the balcony for a little bit the paragraph 14 she says I woke up my daughter and told her there was a fire in Grenville tower she came out onto the balcony with me and started filming the tower on her
02:56:50 me and started filming the tower on her phone which is the video I mentioned above the fire was still smaller that point compared to what it became later on but we were worried about it by then as it seemed to be growing it was shooting up the cladding in a straight line I do not speak English very well so
02:57:03 line I do not speak English very well so my daughter called the fire brigade they said the fire had already been reported and though they were on their way my daughter's best friend me on achoo care lived in the tower with her family on the 22nd floor there was also
02:57:15 family on the 22nd floor there was also good friends with her parents Nadia and Bassam after calling the fire brigade my daughter Kruk tried to call me Anna she did not pick up the calls at first she was probably asleep at this time my
02:57:27 was probably asleep at this time my daughter kept trying to call her and eventually me Anna picked up her phone me owner told my daughter that the family were asleep she said that they did not know what was happening my daughter told her friend that there was a fire in Grantville
02:57:39 that there was a fire in Grantville tower and they should get out her friend said that she needed to go to the next-door flat to help her grandmother who needed a stick to walk with I knew that her grandmother needed a walking stick and that her little sisters I know had asthma so I was
02:57:51 sisters I know had asthma so I was concerned about how they would get downstairs my daughter was extremely distressed she was worried about her friend I did not know how to comfort her as I was also very scared about what was going to
02:58:02 very scared about what was going to happen to them we were watching the fire grow and it was clearly becoming extremely dangerous my daughter made another video on her phone at 1:43 a.m. and in the video she's crying because
02:58:13 and in the video she's crying because she is so scared for her friend I could see that the fire was spreading across the building and it was starting to spread around the corner of the block I did not think that the firefighters would be able to control the fire now it
02:58:24 would be able to control the fire now it was just spreading too much at about 1:55 a.m. my daughter and I decided to go down to the tower to try to help people getting out or find people we knew who grabbed our jackets and ran out of the house and down the walkway and
02:58:37 of the house and down the walkway and then she says picking it up at paragraph 22 at that point the fire was only on one side of the tower on the north side that the fire was spreading up the building and a massive line from the
02:58:48 building and a massive line from the bottom of the tower to nearly the top which is the 23rd floor we were standing on the north side of the base of the tower on the green but first the fire went straight up and down and then it started spreading outwards and round the
02:58:59 started spreading outwards and round the corners of the tower the flames coming out of some of the flats seemed to be blue flames on the building were mainly orange I thought that the blue flames were burning gas I could feel the heat
02:59:11 were burning gas I could feel the heat from the tower my daughter was so hot she took off her jacket I could see debris falling from the tower I think it was the cladding it was landing near where we were standing I
02:59:22 landing near where we were standing I saw I think I saw a fire truck but we could not see any firefighters where we were standing I think maybe they've gone round to the entrance I could hear people screaming from the tower saying
02:59:33 people screaming from the tower saying help me help me my daughter was crying it was so upsetting to see my daughter called me owner again and tried to tell her to get out the owner said her flat was full of smoke and too hot to get out
02:59:45 was full of smoke and too hot to get out my daughter sent her a picture on whatsapp at 2:40 a.m. of the fire outside the tower says she could see what was happening she tried to tell her friend how serious the fire was and that
02:59:56 friend how serious the fire was and that she needed to try to escape
02:59:59 the paragraph 29 on page six she says there were a couple of other families we knew for example the L Wahhabi family I was trying to call them on my phone but I could not get through to them and we
03:00:11 I could not get through to them and we were running around in the dark shouting people's names and trying to see people's faces then at the foot of the same page paragraph 33 she says this my daughter spoke to me
03:00:23 she says this my daughter spoke to me Anna again at about 3:30 a.m. me and I told her that their flat was really hot and full of smoke and that she did not think they could get out when my
03:00:34 think they could get out when my daughter got off the phone to me owner she told me that the whole family was crying so much that was the last time my daughter spoke in the owner and the family the two of us were both crying uncontrollably now and the rest of the
03:00:50 uncontrollably now and the rest of the statement mr. chairman will stand as the others have you taken it to account in full
03:00:55 full the second statement had given the reference for its iws 1129 dated the 9th of October 2018 with a signature on page
03:01:06 of October 2018 with a signature on page 2 under a statement of truth and its exhibits various exhibits
03:01:19 and mr. chairman that concludes the reads that were left over from Monday this week there are a couple more I can I think manage to do without rushing
03:01:30 I think manage to do without rushing them before 1 o'clock if I may use the tick you think this should time yes I'm actually not confident about that and brother I'd rather take them as a single
03:01:42 brother I'd rather take them as a single charge relevant to a different floor you'd better do rows I think I've asked you to do that mr. chair as its said but before I do I think it right that I should express my thanks to those who have taken the time and trouble to make
03:01:53 have taken the time and trouble to make the statements that you've just been reading yes they are all value and they will all be taken into account in full as part of the evidence before the inquiry as you have made tear yes
03:02:06 inquiry as you have made tear yes Thank You mr. chairman thank you so that's probably convenient point and we'll you'll break their resume up to a clock particular yes good thank you very
03:02:19 clock particular yes good thank you very much