Bereaved, Survivors and Residents (BSR) testimony from Flat 133 resident detailing stay-put policy failure, smoke ingress, and multiple failed escape attempts.
00:08:53 you
00:16:10 you
00:18:45 yes I'm Sir Robert good afternoon mr. chairman may I now call please Senna Majid thank you yes
00:19:15 and if you'd like to repeat after me I swear by Allah I fear by Allah that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be
00:19:26 I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you thank you very much mr. Nagi do sit down make yourself comfortable
00:19:40 yes mr. Ali Thank You mr. chairman can you give the inquiry your full name please my name is Chanel Majid mr. magic first of all
00:19:52 Chanel Majid mr. magic first of all thank you very much for coming to give evidence today your willingness to continue to help the inquiry with its work is very much appreciated as I hope
00:20:04 work is very much appreciated as I hope you already know the majority of the questions that I'm going to ask you today will concern the night of the fire itself and we all appreciate that it is difficult to ask someone to go back over
00:20:16 difficult to ask someone to go back over those events again so please take your time and if you need a break at any time just let me know and we can stop I aim to try and keep my questions short
00:20:29 I aim to try and keep my questions short and straightforward sometimes that doesn't always happen so if I do ask you a question that you don't understand please tell me and I'll ask it in a different way the first thing we have to
00:20:42 different way the first thing we have to do is to put your statements formally into the record and you've made two statements to the inquiry so we have the the first statement please the first page which is and it's iws six zeros six
00:20:55 page which is and it's iws six zeros six nine eight one it's a message if I explain this is the first page of your first statement inquiry you can see it on the monitor that's on the desk in front of you if you prefer paper that
00:21:07 front of you if you prefer paper that bundle that you've opened up will also have a copy there okay right if we can go please the last page of the statement which is page 23
00:21:32 we can see that the last sentence on that read I believe that the facts stated in this witness statements are true and the statement is dated the 12th of April 2018 there's a signature there
00:21:46 of April 2018 there's a signature there can you confirm that that is your signature that is my signature have you had an opportunity to read that statement recently I did
00:21:57 statement recently I did there's just perhaps one small point that we ought to clarify and if we go back to page one please and just look at
00:22:10 back to page one please and just look at paragraph four and the last sentence you say there my solicitors transcribed these calls and these are recordings of
00:22:21 these calls and these are recordings of calls that you made to the emergency services and you've read the transcript it's right that when the reference to transcribes of these calls are to notes that your solicitor made at the time is
00:22:32 that your solicitor made at the time is that right that's correct yes but you've also seen haven't you transcripts of the calls themselves I have seen them so subject to that clarification are the contents of this statement true truth
00:22:45 mr. chairman if I formally just explained that there are five exhibits accompanying the statement they are sm1 to sm5 and they are also part of the
00:22:57 to sm5 and they are also part of the same reference which is iws 6-0 69 and they're at pages 20s m1 is at page 25 sm2 at 27 sm-3 at 29 sm4 at 31 and sm5
00:23:14 sm2 at 27 sm-3 at 29 sm4 at 31 and sm5 at 33 and they comprise firstly a diagram of the South facade of the tower a floor plan for mr. Senate's home a floor plan for the floor where he lived
00:23:26 floor plan for the floor where he lived and three photographs of the tower taken on the night itself so I'd ask that those exhibits are put into the record mrs. magic the next statement is your
00:23:39 mrs. magic the next statement is your supplementary statement we have iws four zeros one one five six on screen please
00:23:54 that's your supplementary statement if we go to the last page page six again we
00:24:06 we go to the last page page six again we have the statement of truth it's dated the 17th of October 2018 and can you confirm that that is your signature that is my signature can we go back please to
00:24:17 is my signature can we go back please to the first page of that statement in paragraph two you just make you mention
00:24:32 paragraph two you just make you mention that you hadn't had an opportunity yet to listen to audio recordings of the 999 calls that you made can you confirm mr. magic that you have had an opportunity now to listen to all the audio recordings that are available I've had
00:24:44 recordings that are available I've had opportunity to listen to all calls except one which is missing I think I'll come back to that inje of course if I may anger but and
00:24:55 inje of course if I may anger but and have you had an opportunity to go through this statement recently I have so due to the clarification that you have had an opportunity to listen to all available audios or the contents of this
00:25:07 available audios or the contents of this statement true true could we start if I may just with a little bit of background if I could take you to your first
00:25:18 if I could take you to your first statement I WS six zero six nine page two please
00:25:30 at the time of the fire you were living in flat 133 on the 16th floor of Granville Tower is that right does correct and when did you first move into
00:25:42 correct and when did you first move into flat 133 I think I moved in there in 1992
00:25:50 1992 that's just a month after my son was born which is yes 1992 so that flat was
00:26:01 born which is yes 1992 so that flat was where you bought up your three children was it both correct and then now all grown up are the hill no Karuna so in June 2017 who was living in the flat it was me and my wife only and did
00:26:16 flat it was me and my wife only and did you rent the flat I did rent the flood who did you rent it from I rented from RB Casey but TMO was the people who was
00:26:28 RB Casey but TMO was the people who was in charge so as far as you can remember did you pay your rent to RB Casey I think I paid my rent to a team oh thank
00:26:39 think I paid my rent to a team oh thank you and for the next set of questions we may jump around your statement a little bit but I just want to ask you a few questions just about various aspects of
00:26:53 questions just about various aspects of your flat and if we could go to page 7 at this statement please
00:27:08 and could we just this is before we expand any parts of it this is the part of your statement mr. magic where you deal with the refurbishment and if we
00:27:19 deal with the refurbishment and if we expand please paragraph 39 down
00:27:30 in paragraph 39 you say that as you believe that as part of the refurbishment the front door to flat 133 was replaced and you had a new door
00:27:42 was replaced and you had a new door fitted may I say that yes the whole Granville Tower
00:27:53 Granville Tower they had the the new doors fitted and do you remember yourself that as part of that your flat got a new door yes I do and can you remember when when your door
00:28:04 and can you remember when when your door was replaced that I can't remember but what you explained in these paragraphs
00:28:15 what you explained in these paragraphs is that a few months after the door been fitted it developed a problem yes it did and so a workman came and you say in
00:28:32 and so a workman came and you say in paragraph 40 he was there within a few hours he looked at the door he took out a mechanism from within the door he told me that this was the automatic closing
00:28:44 me that this was the automatic closing mechanism he said this was what was causing my door to jam correct and he didn't replace the mechanism is
00:28:56 and he didn't replace the mechanism is that right yes he said the whole door should be replaced today they they did not replace the mechanism on his own so
00:29:10 not replace the mechanism on his own so he said you can only replace the whole door so he also told me that a lot of people they locked themselves out while
00:29:23 people they locked themselves out while they go to put the rubbish out in the truth so he said well a lot of people don't bother with this self closing mechanism so I I thought he is the
00:29:34 mechanism so I I thought he is the expert he is the handyman from the tour company so I took her I took his advice and it was left like that and can you remember what he actually remove it just removed from the back of
00:29:47 remove it just removed from the back of the door as kind of a spring self closing mechanism that would push the door too close and that place you know
00:30:00 door too close and that place you know was at the back of the door and what was a weight would you be able to see when you opened and shut the door yes a
00:30:12 you opened and shut the door yes a little bit of it if it was like a chain Plus a spring remembered and you tell us that this workman told you that a lot of
00:30:26 that this workman told you that a lot of people didn't bother with it but did he explain to you what that mechanism was full mmm I can't remember him explaining that to me now the reason that he turned
00:30:41 that to me now the reason that he turned up was because you had a problem with the door does correct now before that problem arose and you found that your door couldn't close properly was it
00:30:52 door couldn't close properly was it closing automatically before before that it was closing automatically before it got jammed and just so that we can be
00:31:03 got jammed and just so that we can be clear it was it was still without a closing mechanism by the time of the fire was it not correct just another
00:31:15 fire was it not correct just another question about your door please you said that you know the workman told you a lot of people didn't bother with the mechanism once that mechanism had been removed from your door if you went out
00:31:28 removed from your door if you went out and it shut behind you would you be able to push the door open or would you need a key to open it I think we would need a key to open it so even if it wasn't
00:31:40 key to open it so even if it wasn't locked at all somebody couldn't just push it open from the outside and come into your flat no it it once you close the door it it would close and you would have to open it with the key
00:31:53 were there any gaps between the door your front door and the frame at all I would say minimal it it wasn't
00:32:08 did you ever feel a draft coming through the front door a little bit I mean if if I open if I if I open the windows you know what here here's a draft coming was
00:32:22 know what here here's a draft coming was that coming in from the window ah or from well I suppose the air air ventilation would be causing it but if you just imagine yourself standing in
00:32:33 you just imagine yourself standing in front of your closed front door and you're inside your flat and in your hallway
00:32:39 hallway looking at the front door would you feel a draft coming through then not very strong though a little bit so nothing that made you feel uncomfortable no if
00:32:53 that made you feel uncomfortable no if we look at the next page please and just look up if we go to page 9 please and look at paragraphs 48
00:33:11 in paragraph 48 you you begin that paragraph was saying all the windows in our flat were replaced did you any
00:33:22 our flat were replaced did you any experience any problems of the windows after they were replaced no I didn't have any problems at all and I was really pleased with the new windows because they looked nice and did you
00:33:33 because they looked nice and did you notice for example any gaps around the windows no I didn't notice any gaps around the windows I told you we jump around the statements
00:33:45 I told you we jump around the statements now I want to go back a little bit in the statement to paragraph 44 which is on page 8 please
00:34:02 in paragraph 44 you say during the refurbishment I recall that smoke extractor fans were fitted into the walls of the corridors upon each floor by this I mean the communal area outside
00:34:13 by this I mean the communal area outside the flats I saw workmen testing them during the refurbishment when they tested them you could hear this noise coming from them that sounded like the air was being sucked out through them
00:34:25 air was being sucked out through them I'd like to show you a couple of photographs are you there photographs they're not distressing but they were taken of the interior of the tower after the fire are you comfortable with me
00:34:37 the fire are you comfortable with me showing you the photographs don't comfortable luckily well mr. chairman these are photographs we've shown a number of witnesses yes I hope that my explanation of insufficient time for
00:34:49 explanation of insufficient time for anyone to look away or step how do they need to do distressing no they're not so can I have side by side please be la four zeros to five one three and B la
00:35:00 four zeros to five one three and B la four zeros to five one for mr. magic if I explain these are photographs that aren't taken on your floor as the chairman mentioned their photographs taken on floor six and they've been
00:35:11 taken on floor six and they've been taken by one of the inquiries experts if we look at the photograph that's on the left-hand side of the screen can you see on the far wall they appear to be some a grille you see those and that's at the
00:35:22 grille you see those and that's at the top of the wall and then if you look on the other photograph that's looking in the other direction and we now see a grille at the bottom of the war when you
00:35:37 grille at the bottom of the war when you say when you refer to smoke extractor fans being fitted into the walls is that what you're referring to there are the ones I'm most referring to
00:35:48 ones I'm most referring to and with these will call them vents were they something that you only noticed after the refurbishment I think I noticed them after the refurbishment do
00:36:01 noticed them after the refurbishment do you have a memory of seeing square grilles like that before the refurbishment on your to them and what you've described them as in your statement is smoke extractor
00:36:12 as in your statement is smoke extractor fans how did you know they were smoke extractor fans well I saw the Walkman testing them once and they they was
00:36:23 testing them once and they they was making a loud noise as well much more than a full working who were that's what
00:36:38 than a full working who were that's what what that's what made me believe that there this smoke extractor once to click click clean the smoke if there was any said nobody told you nobody told me and
00:36:52 said nobody told you nobody told me and when you say you saw workmen testing them and during the refurbishment was that on your floor that you saw these workmen yes there was on my floor I think there was chicken every floor I'm
00:37:04 think there was chicken every floor I'm not sure but I saw them on my floor briefly and did you see anyone sticking to your floor did you ever see anyone testing these smoke extractor fans at
00:37:17 testing these smoke extractor fans at any time after the refurbishment yes I I saw them after the refurbishment I say you actually saw someone come along and work on them I've never wished just as
00:37:29 work on them I've never wished just as they've been installed all put there that's the time I saw them testing them say it was just the one time that you
00:37:40 say it was just the one time that you saw the dust one time that's one time
00:37:45 you've described a moment ago that the the noise was was was much louder than than that of a full working Hoover yes
00:37:56 than that of a full working Hoover yes so it says that a Hoover on full power and the noise was still louder than that is that all you men but correct
00:38:12 when you were coming and going from your flat after once once these had been installed after the refurbishment and when you were going and coming from your flat did you ever see any noise from
00:38:24 flat did you ever see any noise from these mofos extractor fans I think there was little noise but it wasn't to the extent that it would bother you I think it's kind of also done a job of
00:38:35 it's kind of also done a job of ventilation in my in my opinion and were there particular was the nature of your job did that would that mean you worked flexible hours yes I did and were there
00:38:50 flexible hours yes I did and were there particular times of the day or the night that you'd hear a noise from these fans know that I think the noise level was always same thang doing the best you can
00:39:01 always same thang doing the best you can can you can you describe how loud it was oh it's just it was just minimal I think it was just enough to ventilate the
00:39:12 it was just enough to ventilate the corridor and you say it was just enough to ventilate the corridor which did you ever feel the movement of air no I didn't feel that but I heard little
00:39:24 didn't feel that but I heard little little noise I heard that it was on and can you and I mean what can you compare what that something that noise to something at the moment I can hear
00:39:39 something at the moment I can hear something working but I'm not sure what it is this is similar to that sound the whirring of a fan would you happy what he put yes
00:39:52 [Music]
00:39:57 and you've said that you youth your view was that it might have something to do with ventilation so what was the temperature like on your floor in the communal area is this at normal time old
00:40:12 communal area is this at normal time old I think it was okay it wasn't it wasn't humid or it wasn't hurt but the communal area where the the lifts and that
00:40:25 area where the the lifts and that rubbish chute sort of you know they day they day there was no windows so obviously it had to be ventilated but
00:40:36 obviously it had to be ventilated but you didn't find the temperature in the communal area on the floor your floor to be uncomfortable not not really
00:40:56 um can I again go a little back into your seventh paragraph 29 which is on page five
00:41:17 what you say I recall that they used to be fire alarms in the communal areas of Grenville's Howard and juked here when there was a fire I remember times in the
00:41:29 there was a fire I remember times in the past when the fire alarms went off in the building do you remember where the was this before the refurbishment that the oh you remember these going off I
00:41:41 the oh you remember these going off I think this was before the the tower had a stay put policy put put on the day
00:41:55 a stay put policy put put on the day they changed they did I think that that was before the stay-put policy I remember that but do remember for
00:42:09 remember that but do remember for example whether you're hearing of firearms going off was before you for example had your flak door changed well before they started putting windows in I
00:42:21 before they started putting windows in I think it might be during the during the refurbishment but I'm not 100% sure can
00:42:32 refurbishment but I'm not 100% sure can you remember where those fire alarms were located yes there was on the the wall above not directly aware what sides both sides of the lifts and with was
00:42:46 both sides of the lifts and with was there an alarm like that on your floor yes there was and tell me if you if you can't remember this but were you aware of a similar alarm on other floors yes I
00:42:57 of a similar alarm on other floors yes I was other floors and when that alarm went off what did it sound like it was
00:43:08 went off what did it sound like it was well it was as fire alarm ringtone like ring ring ringing like it had a kind of hammer to that to the metal kind of
00:43:21 hammer to that to the metal kind of effect that kind of Allah you describe it as being located just above the lift I mean birth group and having a hammer yeah hitting it can you tell us a little
00:43:32 yeah hitting it can you tell us a little bit more about what the alarm looked like it was round and red and it was like and you know what happened to the
00:43:45 like and you know what happened to the communal alarm after the refurbishment I think I think they took them away they just didn't have them anymore so my
00:44:00 just didn't have them anymore so my understanding was because they also put notices as to you know the in case of a fire the building has a staple policy so
00:44:12 fire the building has a staple policy so with the stay-put policy they didn't meet the fire alarms anymore and was that something that you understood at the time that's what I you know I put two and two together and came to that
00:44:24 two and two together and came to that conclusion and well you've mentioned stay put to policy can I take you to paragraph 33 in your stone which is on
00:44:36 paragraph 33 in your stone which is on page six
00:44:45 I can expand 13-3 please
00:44:53 you begin this sentence with mr. Majid with the fire policy in Grandville towers displayed in writing around the building can you remember what how it
00:45:05 building can you remember what how it was displayed it was kind of written on a piece of I won't say paper but just
00:45:18 a piece of I won't say paper but just like it you know plastic or cardboard something from some you know and it was displayed on the walls and whereabouts
00:45:32 displayed on the walls and whereabouts were was was they placed I'm not 100% sure but I think it was on the side of the lift on the wall
00:45:58 can I show you please an image and it's inq six zeroes nine three again it's not a distressing image for those who may
00:46:10 a distressing image for those who may need to call this is a photograph of a sign that and again it's photograph taken by one of our experts and it's of
00:46:22 taken by one of our experts and it's of a sign that was sighted between the lifts on floor three is this something that you remember seeing is just a fire this is something that I remember soon before the fire and is that what you had
00:46:34 before the fire and is that what you had in mind as saying the fire policy was this that was displayed in writing around the building yes and do you remember a sign like that by the lifts
00:46:45 remember a sign like that by the lifts on your floor as I say not percent I'm not hundred percent sure whether it was on the side of the lift but I just
00:46:56 on the side of the lift but I just remember seeing the sign on the floor and how much attend a time before June 2070 how much attention had you paid to that sign I read the sign and I
00:47:08 that sign I read the sign and I understood that if the fire wasn't immediately on my floor or next next to my flood so I should stay in my flat
00:47:20 my flood so I should stay in my flat till till I'm advised otherwise we see right at the top just below that the label that says fire action Granville
00:47:31 label that says fire action Granville Tower it reads there is a state policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat kurosu so did the phrase stay put mean something to you before June 2017 yes it
00:47:43 something to you before June 2017 yes it did because a lot of fires happened in Granville tower before and there was
00:47:55 Granville tower before and there was contained in this flat that it started and the compartment ation has not failed it would start in in a flood and the
00:48:07 it would start in in a flood and the firemen would come and put it put it out easily
00:48:13 so that that for that reason you know we we we was we was not alarmed and we thought that yeah they you know if a
00:48:27 thought that yeah they you know if a fire starts in in a flood staved in in in the same flat or some same same room at this one hour before it kind of breaks flow to the next flood or next
00:48:39 breaks flow to the next flood or next floor and so before June 2017 you understood what the policy that applied to ground for town it was yes and you
00:48:50 to ground for town it was yes and you also had had experience of other fires where which had not gone beyond the flat themselves correct correct
00:49:04 I'd like now please mister Majid is just to turn to the events of the 13th and 14th of June if I may on the night of
00:49:18 14th of June if I may on the night of the 13th of June can you tell us who was in flat 133 it was me and my wife
00:49:35 could I have up on please pages two pages of mr. magic statement I WS 69
00:49:47 pages of mr. magic statement I WS 69 page 10 and I WS 69 page 11 and if we could expand paragraphs 57 to 60 on those two pages please
00:50:18 in these paragraphs mr. magic you've explained that it was Ramadan as we all know and you know you'd actually broken
00:50:30 know and you know you'd actually broken your fast that evening with your family at around 9:30 and then by one o'clock it was yourself and your wife at home correct and you saying that that at that
00:50:44 correct and you saying that that at that time you were still awake and your wife was on the phone to her sister and your wife then told you that her sister could see fire engines at the bottom of Grenfell Tower and just so that we can
00:50:55 Grenfell Tower and just so that we can understand you your wife sister lives not too far away from the tower doesn't she she lives abut well opposite Kensington leisure center which is about 100 150 yards away and say you got given
00:51:13 100 150 yards away and say you got given this piece of information and you say and if we look at paragraph 60 you'll see this that you then opened the living room window and looked out and you give
00:51:25 room window and looked out and you give a time for doing this as at around 110 a.m. correct how do you estimate that time I tell you
00:51:38 how do you estimate that time I tell you and if I haven't looked at the clock or the watch but I I feel that was about that time because I was watching
00:51:49 that time because I was watching something on the telly and it started the but I think five minutes before that time so that I calculated that it would
00:52:02 time so that I calculated that it would be 110 it's working on what on the basis of what you were watching on the TV at the time I mean but it's clear in your mind that if we go that if we look at 57
00:52:13 mind that if we go that if we look at 57 that the time of one o'clock is something that's in your mind is it yes something like one o'clock and if we look at focus on page 11 now and
00:52:25 look at focus on page 11 now and paragraph 61 to 63 or 62 63 sorry and
00:52:38 paragraph 61 to 63 or 62 63 sorry and you explain your wife honey fate all also looked down out of the window and you can describe you you could see a number of fire engines and then if you look at 61 you begin that paragraph by
00:52:52 look at 61 you begin that paragraph by saying I remember not feeling concerned about this and then you return to watching television but then if we look at 63 you say a few minutes later I left
00:53:06 at 63 you say a few minutes later I left flat 133 and walked into the corridor area to see if I could hear anything happening you hadn't seen anything from the window you'd gone back to watching television what was it that made you
00:53:20 television what was it that made you decide to go out into the community really was any commotion or if there's any noise or if there was any smell just
00:53:31 any noise or if there was any smell just curiosity as to say why are these firemen dead and I think also the fire
00:53:43 firemen dead and I think also the fire engines the pumps increased that's what made me think well is it something serious that's why I went to the corridor to check if I could hear some
00:53:56 corridor to check if I could hear some noise or commotion or someone shouting fire or or any smells then obviously I would be ready to leave the flat before
00:54:08 would be ready to leave the flat before you went out to check could you hear any noise coming from the communal area at all
00:54:12 all no nothing and when you went out at that time what did you see nothing at all I even opened the open the door to the
00:54:26 even opened the open the door to the stairwells fire accepted and and couldn't hear nothing or there was no smell no smoke so saying nothing in the
00:54:37 smell no smoke so saying nothing in the communal area and laughing in the style of English the world and did you see any of your neighbors around us I know I heard that
00:54:48 neighbors around us I know I heard that the fans that we were talking about a few moments ago need smoke what you've described as a smoke extractor fans could you hear any noise from them no good doesn't come on so even the faint
00:55:00 good doesn't come on so even the faint sound that you sound was always that was said it was standard it was always there right but you didn't hear any loud annoying on usual none from the fans no
00:55:13 annoying on usual none from the fans no do you remember where your wife was at this time she was still at the living room her recollection in the statement
00:55:26 room her recollection in the statement that she's given to this inquiry it is that she went first she was the first of the two of you to go to the door of the flat and when she did do that she could smell burning and when she went to the
00:55:39 smell burning and when she went to the door of the stairwell and opened that door the burning smell was even stronger do you remember your wife opening the flat door I do but that was after I
00:55:53 flat door I do but that was after I first investigated they came back I think that happened I would say 5 5 10
00:56:05 think that happened I would say 5 5 10 minutes after well can I come back to that yeah sure ok so when when you did this first investigation your wife
00:56:18 this first investigation your wife wasn't with you is that right no we look at the bottom of this page please at paragraph 64
00:56:33 in this paragraph the magic you're setting out that that you received a photograph from your brother-in-law Abdullah and you give a time of that for
00:56:45 Abdullah and you give a time of that for as around 135 a.m. that's great how sure are you of that time I am very sure of that because I had there was up
00:56:56 sure of that because I had there was up pictures and I had the time it was sent to me on top of that picture and he actually sent me two pictures but I had bought correct times but unfortunately I
00:57:09 bought correct times but unfortunately I deleted the pictures by mistake almost always deleting some stuff on the what's up but I think the Inquirer still have
00:57:22 up but I think the Inquirer still have two exhibits what they're the the pictures that you were sent are exhibited to your state and at the time that you made your your statement to
00:57:33 that you made your your statement to seeing this first statement did you still have the whatsapp message or had you already too accidentally deleted it no no I had I had I had there what's up messages yes and we're going to talk
00:57:48 messages yes and we're going to talk about this in a moment but we know that you opened your flat door on a second occasion you say that in your statement but just so that we can get the chronology correct are you in your mind
00:58:04 chronology correct are you in your mind clear that you receive this what's that message from Abdullah before you opened your flat door for a second time yes correct
00:58:16 correct I won't put up the image but if you want to quickly look at it yourself it's at
00:58:31 to quickly look at it yourself it's at page 31 in your statement
00:58:54 have you found the page can I ask you this then firstly when you got the whatsapp message from Abdullah did you look at it there and then I looked at it
00:59:06 look at it there and then I looked at it and I was shocked I thought what this is this grand felt hour and I thought oh this is serious I thought no I'm just as
00:59:19 this is serious I thought no I'm just as this is this is very serious than I thought
00:59:25 thought and at that time I started panicking
00:59:33 mr. Chen before I continue I just just for the record so that we have it up the image that mr. Majid is referring to is iw s60 69 31 yes we have that on the
00:59:47 iw s60 69 31 yes we have that on the record but I don't think there's a need for us to put the image up can I go then to the next page in your statements to match it all to page 12 and look at
01:00:02 match it all to page 12 and look at paragraph 65 68 please
01:00:15 at 65 you tell us mr. magic that Abdullah then called you and you spoke to him and he told you he could see a large fire in Grenville tower and he told you to leave for that you needed to
01:00:27 told you to leave for that you needed to leave the building yes and you then looked out of the living room window and you couldn't see any sign of a fire does correct but you then as you say in 67
01:00:40 correct but you then as you say in 67 went to the front door walked out onto the landing were you still on the phone to Abdullah at the time when I put the phone down on him and did you go after putting the phone ending the call with
01:00:51 putting the phone ending the call with your brother-in-law or did you go straight out to the landing no I I went to look out of the window briefly about 10 seconds and I couldn't see any fire then I came and opened it open the front
01:01:03 then I came and opened it open the front door that's the time and what you tell us in in in power success that your your wife came with you should it and you say that you saw some of your neighbors and
01:01:16 that you saw some of your neighbors and can I just bring up please the plan that's attached to your statement which is a plan of your floor it's iws 69 page
01:01:27 is a plan of your floor it's iws 69 page 29 please
01:01:45 this is a plan that and is it marketing your handwriting mr. Majid yes that's correct and you've signed this in the bottom left hand corner
01:01:56 this in the bottom left hand corner haven't I did and this is the layout of your floor floor 16 and we can you see where there is at the bottom of the page
01:02:07 where there is at the bottom of the page there it's marked EF for extractor fan so there was an extra extractor fan its Jets so the left of that would be your front door wouldn't it does correct can
01:02:23 front door wouldn't it does correct can you say when you went out the second half how far out did you go from your front door I think I just opened the door and I was standing by it by the
01:02:34 door and I was standing by it by the door and I thought my neighbor's escaping and I also saw some people
01:02:51 escaping and I also saw some people opening that the fire the dist fire does it to the stairs to the stairwell and shouting at us there's a fire there's a
01:03:03 shouting at us there's a fire there's a fire get out can I take that in stages please sure when you say the fire door that are you referring to the door that leads from York the communal area into
01:03:14 leads from York the communal area into the stairway does correct and if if you were standing on in the doorway of your front door would you have a clear view of that door I would have Clery of data
01:03:27 and when you told us that you could see your neighbors leaving was that were these people who lived on the 16th floor as well I should have put in different
01:03:39 as well I should have put in different context when I said neighbors I called the whole ground fault our neighbors so I think there was like coming down from upper floors and briefly some of them
01:03:50 upper floors and briefly some of them opened the door and shouted there's fire there's fire in in the building but I can remember who they were so these were people coming
01:04:02 they were so these were people coming down from yes higher from the higher floors and how many somewhat would some of them open up the out into your floor yes just just what one couple of them a
01:04:16 yes just just what one couple of them a couple lady shot at the fire of their fire in the building did you see that time what was the lighting like in the
01:04:28 time what was the lighting like in the communal area the lighting was was okay but I could start to see in some smoke and did you
01:04:39 start to see in some smoke and did you recognize anyone who lived in another flat on the 16th floor at this time do you remember seeing anybody from one of the other flats I didn't but my wife did and did she tell you at the time that
01:04:52 and did she tell you at the time that she'd seen someone no should the children told me at the time let's leave that there we're going to be reading your wife statement in June so true what
01:05:07 your wife statement in June so true what about when the stairwell door was opened did you see what the lighting was like in the stairwell I could see some smoke there but the lighting was okay you
01:05:19 there but the lighting was okay you could still see and so there were lights on in the stairwell was and all that you described smoke but was there anything was your visibility good from the door
01:05:31 was your visibility good from the door it was it was visibility was okay we could see people's faces like if you were standing there I could see you but III noticed the smoke at that time
01:05:44 III noticed the smoke at that time that's the only time I noticed the smoke can you describe the smoke that you saw that it was light smoke but kind of how
01:05:58 that it was light smoke but kind of how shall I say it wasn't a dense smoke it was just
01:06:02 was just you could see the smoke that's it and where was it coming from it was coming from from the stairwell
01:06:18 [Music]
01:06:26 other than seeing the smoke was there anything else that you noticed about the condition on the stairwell I mean they're in the communal area at the time no - Brianna fight I didn't I quickly
01:06:37 no - Brianna fight I didn't I quickly Mae made up my mind that you know we needed to escape and I just went back inside to put my clothes on
01:06:57 and at that time you hadn't seen anybody else who lived we lived on floor 16 no I Holland you've told us that that you've
01:07:11 Holland you've told us that that you've made up your mind that you that you needed to escape and you went back to get changed did you think that that the smoke would
01:07:26 did you think that that the smoke would have prevented you from leaving smoke that you saw at that time no that smoke didn't scare me at all because it was very light smoke it was just you know I
01:07:40 can't describe it to you but it was just like if you've set a paper lights there that if that much smoke give me a moment
01:07:54 that if that much smoke give me a moment please sure
01:08:07 thank you and once you were back in the flat and you were getting changed did
01:08:18 flat and you were getting changed did you hear any knocking on your door at all no I don't know knocking at all did you hear any noises coming from the communal area at this no I didn't hear
01:08:31 communal area at this no I didn't hear any noise
01:08:38 and let's go to your plan of your flat so I've got mr. Oh what can I say because I closed his front door and I also went into my bedroom and closed the
01:08:49 also went into my bedroom and closed the bedroom door sigh I wouldn't hear any any noise already knocking at all well Lowe's dressing up let's just confirm where your or your bedroom was if we
01:09:00 where your or your bedroom was if we look at an I WS 69 27 please
01:09:13 I mean your front door would be between your bathroom which is labeled BA and your storage room and then you've got
01:09:24 your storage room and then you've got two bedrooms labeled B 1 and B 2 which bedroom was yours I was in the b2 and that's where you went obviously to get change yes and as you've told us you
01:09:35 change yes and as you've told us you would have had your front door shut and your bedroom door shut yes if someone had banged or knocked on your door would you have been able to hear them from your bedroom if it was if it was loud
01:09:48 your bedroom if it was if it was loud enough I would yes we go back to page 13 of your statement please
01:10:07 and let's look at paragraph 72 to 74
01:10:23 in these paragraphs mr. magic what you're discussing now you and your wife are now got ready to leave and you then
01:10:41 are now got ready to leave and you then describe opening the front door and being confronted by the landing area being filled with smoke and you describe the smoke as the thick hot and black so
01:10:54 the smoke as the thick hot and black so how much time do you think and I appreciate that estimating times is difficult but in between that you're returning shutting the front door to go and get changed and
01:11:05 the front door to go and get changed and now getting ready to leave how much time do you think had passed I would estimate like four minutes of maybe five minutes
01:11:19 yes something like that
01:11:25 and it just gives us a sense of what confronted you what were the conditions like now on the landing area right so they open the door this hot smoke hit my face and I was
01:11:40 this hot smoke hit my face and I was surprised and shocked I thought well in this short time where did this smoke come from you know I I wasn't expecting
01:11:53 come from you know I I wasn't expecting that to happen and the smoke was hot and
01:12:00 and also I couldn't see anything that was another shock if you were standing this much in front of me I couldn't see you and in terms of filling the height
01:12:16 you and in terms of filling the height of the communal area how whereabouts was the smoke in the communal area it was filled everywhere it was filled everywhere did the whole community area
01:12:29 everywhere did the whole community area was filled with smoke when you'd open up the door when your wife was with you
01:12:41 the door when your wife was with you were you aware that the lighting was on in the communal area Severinus III I wasn't I wasn't sure whether the light was on or not but to me it was
01:12:55 was on or not but to me it was pitch-black and as soon as I took a cup of that smoke in my throat started hurting it it was like someone is
01:13:07 hurting it it was like someone is stopping me in there in the fraud and my eyes started hurting and even inside my nostrils felt it the hot smoke and I
01:13:19 nostrils felt it the hot smoke and I thought no this is this is this is terrible shall I tell me exactly how I felt I thought oh god
01:13:31 you know I thought this is this is not good and I run back inside straight away this is your the third
01:13:43 straight away this is your the third time that you've opened your flat door isn't it yes so I just take you back to that second time when you're you you talk that you spoke about hearing neighbors getting down the stairwell seeing neighbors getting down the stairwell on that occasion were you
01:13:57 stairwell on that occasion were you aware of whether there were lights on in the communal area on your floor yes there was a little and now they're on this time just so that we can be clear this is the third time you've opened the
01:14:09 this is the third time you've opened the door you've described the conditions that you saw and in on this is it right you couldn't tell whether the lights were on
01:14:17 were on no I could until they might have been on but there was so much dense smoke that you wouldn't notice if their lives was on and how far were you able to get on
01:14:32 on and how far were you able to get on this occasion how far were you able to get from your front door no I didn't even have the courage to walk step out of my flat I just saw the smoke and I
01:14:43 of my flat I just saw the smoke and I thought no this is not good I just panicked and run back inside and closed the door and told my wife that we can't
01:14:55 the door and told my wife that we can't leave we need to form the fire brigade
01:15:00 mr. magic has been going through most an hour I think but and I'm going on to a new topic which is the cause it would be for a short break but I think we would
01:15:13 for a short break but I think we would all benefit from a short break as much it takes so I can ask you when we go from the run please don't talk to anyone about terrestris if you go in the our show will resume at 20 past 3:00 thank
01:15:25 show will resume at 20 past 3:00 thank you sir all right thank you very much
01:15:36 right 25 Sweetland please
01:33:13 huh
01:33:22 yes you ask mr. match to come in please
01:33:43 this notion I'm sorry we kept you waiting no problem we had to sort out right
01:33:49 right yes mr. Rowland Thank You mr. chairman it's magic before the break I said I would turn to the first 999 call that you made not Emma we have that at inq
01:34:03 you made not Emma we have that at inq five zeroes to eight zero one please
01:34:16 you can see at the top that the the time of the call is given at one as one thirty seven and twenty one thirty seven twenty seven seconds but if I could
01:34:27 twenty seven seconds but if I could explain just for the the record I think this is something that you know about mr. moto this is a a call where you first as we can see speak to a police
01:34:39 first as we can see speak to a police operator so identified as MPs operator and then that operator speaks to the London Fire Brigade and then connects you to an operator from the fire brigade
01:34:50 you to an operator from the fire brigade I think that when you made your first statement what was available at the time was a transcript of the conversation with the fire brigade rather than with the police as well so we're going to use
01:35:03 the police as well so we're going to use this transcript because it gives us a complete picture of the of the discussions that followed your call but our starting point is it was at 137 but
01:35:14 our starting point is it was at 137 but I don't want to go through it all I just want to aren't pick specific
01:35:20 bits of information that you provided at the time and just to ask you about it so if we see in the middle of it where the
01:35:33 if we see in the middle of it where the operator asks you where's the fire and you say it's underneath I can't see but because we went and then the operator says is it underneath you and you say no
01:35:44 says is it underneath you and you say no no not underneath but I'm not exactly sure I'm not sure exactly where but there's so much smoke we can't even go out and then if we go to the next page
01:35:58 out and then if we go to the next page page two we see seven lines down do you think you could have this expanded as question I'm sorry if we expand this I'm
01:36:10 question I'm sorry if we expand this I'm sorry
01:36:11 sorry it's Geoff if we go seven lines down we should be get the response from missus mr. Majid which begins the fire escape and just look above that you say I
01:36:25 and just look above that you say I didn't go out of the flat but I tried I tried to get into the stairs the operator acknowledges you and then you say the fire skate but there was so much smoke in the corridor we just ran
01:36:36 much smoke in the corridor we just ran back inside and closed the door and a few lines down the operator asks did you say you try to get through the stairs
01:36:48 say you try to get through the stairs and you say yes but there was so much smoke we were scared we ran back inside our flat it's dark as well there is no light just so that we can understand
01:37:00 light just so that we can understand that that the sequence of what was going on what smoke are you referring to there does smoke I'm referring to is is the smoke that got inside while we kept the
01:37:13 smoke that got inside while we kept the door open for briefly and also the smoke that's pouring in from from underneath from underneath the door this death I would say you know half and half
01:37:29 would say you know half and half centimeters of gap underneath the door front door to the to the lobby area so that the smoke was pouring in by this time from the door say we talked just
01:37:44 time from the door say we talked just before the short break about that third attempt or that third occasion on which you opened your door when you and you described the conditions so was that the smoke that was then coming into your
01:37:55 smoke that was then coming into your flat through the open door its I kept the door open for something like matter of 5 to 7 seconds maybe maybe maximum 10
01:38:07 of 5 to 7 seconds maybe maybe maximum 10 before I realized this is something that
01:38:15 I'm not going to be able to escape this is something that you know too much so I decided to shut the door and run back
01:38:27 decided to shut the door and run back inside and that's 10 seconds that was enough smoke went went inside my flat and also the smoke continued coming in from underneath the door and how quickly
01:38:39 from underneath the door and how quickly was it coming in underneath as it was it was coming in kind of can't
01:38:52 as it was it was coming in kind of can't I can't measure it in any way but it was feeling it was feeling the the corridor of my inside inside my flat what you
01:39:04 of my inside inside my flat what you also mentioned in that in the part that I've just read out you you said it's dark as well there is no light where was there no light oh it's in in the landing
01:39:16 there no light oh it's in in the landing area the the when we open the door and do you think you're you're discussing there that third occasion
01:39:27 discussing there that third occasion when you recall opening your door yes
01:39:33 and the smoke that was now coming into your flat what did it look like it was black and it kind of had the plastic
01:39:47 black and it kind of had the plastic burning smell and it had some other smells to it but it was disgusting and it was terrible and as I say it burns
01:40:03 it was terrible and as I say it burns burns people thought it burnt my eyes straight away and it's like it made a bad taste in my mouth and also is it was
01:40:16 bad taste in my mouth and also is it was like my fraud started hurting straightaway was was this that effect still happening even in your own flat
01:40:28 still happening even in your own flat once you you've got back into it yes it was but not not as much as when I was standing by the door could we get a page for of this
01:40:40 could we get a page for of this transcript please
01:40:47 and expand the top section just to call concluded that that's fine they're just to put this into context mr. budget what
01:40:58 to put this into context mr. budget what the NPS operator says is that they are going to get someone from the fire service and but as they're explaining
01:41:11 service and but as they're explaining that to you and she says the operator says I'm going to call I'm going to call you back okay literally two minutes but in between you say stuff is coming in
01:41:22 in between you say stuff is coming in what stuff were you referring to of referring to the smoke again
01:41:36 if we go to page six in the transcript
01:41:47 and just expand the top half of it please
01:42:03 like just before we do that can can I go back to page 4 please just to help you just with time please mr. magic but page 4 is that part of the transfer where
01:42:15 4 is that part of the transfer where you're now being or you're now being football the call is being connected to the London Fire Brigades we're now at 1:45 so a few minutes have gone on and
01:42:27 1:45 so a few minutes have gone on and then if we go through to page 6 you're now speaking to an lfb operator and you say at the top I'm on the 16th floor there's smoke coming in more now more
01:42:39 there's smoke coming in more now more now you're asked where's the smoke coming from and your answer is underneath the door and we tried to go out into the stairs the fire escape but there was pitch black and there was so
01:42:51 there was pitch black and there was so much smoke run and when you're which door are you referring to when you're saying underneath the door my front door to my flood
01:43:08 the advice that you're given is you're probably best to stay in your flat and then you're told can you put something against the door some black blankets cushions anything to stop the smoke
01:43:20 cushions anything to stop the smoke coming in and you say okay and then you're told to shut your windows do you remember doing that at the time yes I
01:43:31 remember doing that at the time yes I was on the phone to the operator but I at the same time I instructed my wife to do it and did you also try to block up the door at this time no I didn't do it
01:43:43 the door at this time no I didn't do it myself she should have done it because I was busy talking to the operator and I had the phone in my hand so you passed on the instructions to your wife I did
01:43:54 on the instructions to your wife I did if you just scroll down slightly what the lfb operates does is to ask you what
01:44:05 the lfb operates does is to ask you what flat number you're in and then to say okay if it gets worse bring us back or just try and stop the smoke coming in and just stay where you are for now but we are dealing with the fire and the
01:44:16 we are dealing with the fire and the full floor during bus being told that there was a fire on the fourth floor yes I've been told that remember that and you still have a memory of being told
01:44:27 you still have a memory of being told that yes so you've now been put through to an lfb operator and you've been given some advice what effect did that advice have on what you decided to do next that
01:44:43 advice did not satisfy me at all I had question marks my head as to if this fires on the fourth floor
01:44:55 this fires on the fourth floor how come the smoke came to 16th floor because that that that was a kind of
01:45:06 because that that that was a kind of exclamation not mark and question mark know what we'll call it but and also I talk to myself is that done anything that they're going to do for me just
01:45:19 that they're going to do for me just stay in your flat and this is something serious I talk to myself know if we can't live in this smoke-filled
01:45:31 can't live in this smoke-filled corridors they need to bring us breathing sets so that we can leave that's that's what was going through my mind if you get page seven
01:45:54 again we could just expand the text please
01:46:04 you'll you're now back with the MPS operator and so the MPS operate so the
01:46:16 operator and so the MPS operate so the fire is coming from the full floor have you got where's your duvet in your and blankets and that make sure you put them through the door like under the door you say okay and then there's the sound of an alarm in the background if we scroll
01:46:29 an alarm in the background if we scroll down a little bit more as the conversation continues the transcript recalls that there's a sound of an alarm in the background do you remember an
01:46:41 in the background do you remember an alarm being triggered in your flat yes and what alarm was that it was too smoke alone and I was it a particularly in will I'll take you back to it if you
01:46:52 will I'll take you back to it if you want to but on your plan or one of the plans you Mark that you had three alarms in your flat was it an alarm in a particular location that was set off it was all three of
01:47:05 that was set off it was all three of them
01:47:16 um can I just if we go back to first page of this transcript please wonder if
01:47:28 page of this transcript please wonder if you could just help with the sequence of events and sennen I appreciate that it's it's difficult to put it all together but you told us that you have a message
01:47:39 but you told us that you have a message from Abdullah or what's that message which all clear it was at 1:35 a.m. after that you've opened your front door twice you've come back
01:47:50 twice you've come back you've got changed which you said took you four or five minutes and then you've tried to leave and it's after that you first ring 999 now the time for that
01:48:03 first ring 999 now the time for that call is 137 which would just be two minutes after that what's that message from Abdullah true do you think you might have got the sequence wrong in
01:48:14 might have got the sequence wrong in your recollection no I think I didn't get the sequence wrong at all and so would you have been able to have done everything in two minutes between the whatsapp message from Abdullah 135
01:48:26 whatsapp message from Abdullah 135 physical I could have been I'm sure I did everything right after after after that message straight away I dialed
01:48:37 that message straight away I dialed thine own name but do you think in between that what's that message you would have had time to go to your front door twice come back and get changed and go back to your front door between
01:48:49 go back to your front door between widget would just say that again the evidence that you've given us so far is that Abdullah sends your what's that message at 1:35 yes after that you go to
01:49:00 message at 1:35 yes after that you go to your door front door and then you you come back and you get changed right and you told us that takes you four to five minutes and then you go
01:49:13 four to five minutes and then you go back again with your wife and that's when you notice there's black smoke and then you then tell us you call 999 okay but taking the times taking Abdullah's
01:49:27 but taking the times taking Abdullah's what's that message is a starting point and
01:49:29 and time of this call as a starting point it's only two minutes sure my question is whether the sequence could be wrong I understand what you asking me because
01:49:40 understand what you asking me because there's when I said four to five minutes there's only cap of two minutes between the message and at the time I called to
01:49:52 the message and at the time I called to the left we are the police okay in that case I can't remember correctly but I told you it was four to five minutes that it took us to change
01:50:03 five minutes that it took us to change but is it possible that you might have received the whatsapp message from Abdullah after you had already decided
01:50:14 Abdullah after you had already decided to leave or got changed and after you'd notice what the conditions were like on the lobby that there was already black smoke in the lobby area good I'll give
01:50:26 smoke in the lobby area good I'll give my honest answer I can't remember that that's what we want an honest answer so thank you very much thank you sir can I
01:50:39 thank you very much thank you sir can I turn now however to the second 999 call that you make and if I could go back to your statement please and if we go to
01:50:50 your statement please and if we go to page can we have pages 14 and 15 side-by-side I'd like to have paragraphs 83 and 85 to 85 which spans those two
01:51:01 83 and 85 to 85 which spans those two pages
01:51:12 [Music]
01:51:19 in paragraph 83 if you if you see that mr. Majid this is an another whatsapp message from Abdullah and you then say
01:51:35 message from Abdullah and you then say in 84 that he called you on the phone and he told you to get out of the building and if we look in paragraph 85 you then say soon after the call from
01:51:47 you then say soon after the call from Abdullah ended hanifa and I tried to leave the building again we left the flat and I close the front door behind me which locked the door there was so much smoke in the corridor that I
01:51:58 much smoke in the corridor that I couldn't see what was in front of me the smoke again was hot and black and it hurt my eyes and my throat can I show you if we could have lfb five zeros five
01:52:11 you if we could have lfb five zeros five to zero please
01:52:21 this is the first page of a transcript of a second 999 call and if you see there's a row of numbers and letters at the back on the top can you see that the
01:52:33 the back on the top can you see that the last letters in the sequencer or nwf see yes which stands for Northwest fire control and the numbers just before that Oh - 1033 and that gives us the time 10
01:52:48 Oh - 1033 and that gives us the time 10 past 2:00 in the morning doing the best that you can I've just shown you that part of your statement where you described your honey phone yourself making that trying to leave again do you
01:53:00 making that trying to leave again do you think that you made this call before or after you try to leave no this is the after we had a second attempt to escape
01:53:19 and just I want to ask you a few questions about the content of this call it's actually a long haul it lasts for just over 27 minutes so it would have
01:53:32 just over 27 minutes so it would have taken you to about 237 if we go to page two
01:53:48 can you see that on this the the operator will be the Northwest fire control operator but there's a reference at the top to operator 2 which says
01:53:59 at the top to operator 2 which says Glasgow connecting mobile the call was originally for London fire but we've been asked to redirect it because all their lines are busy and do remember speaking to someone from Glasgow and
01:54:11 speaking to someone from Glasgow and being connect them being connected to the fire brigade yes I do remember that and I thought I was connected to Glasgow
01:54:22 and I thought I was connected to Glasgow call centre and I I thought this is odd the fire is happening in London why I'm not being connected to London Fire Brigades but that's what went through my
01:54:34 Brigades but that's what went through my mind that's obviously at that time there was overwhelmed with so many calls and
01:54:48 if we go to page three please in this and just look at the bottom of the page
01:55:05 if we could expand the bottom of the page of page 3 of this transcript please
01:55:17 what you tell the operator and this is the Northwest fire control operators that you're in the living room of your flat do you remember being in the living
01:55:30 flat do you remember being in the living room for the for the duration of this call yes during this call and I'll take you to the specific pages if you want me
01:55:41 you to the specific pages if you want me if you to help you by showing you that but you you talk about smoke and smoke coming in do you remember at the time that you were making this call smoke coming into your flat yes I do and where
01:55:54 coming into your flat yes I do and where was the smoke coming from it was mainly coming underneath the door to my front door of the of my flat but on couple of
01:56:09 door of the of my flat but on couple of occasions I think my wife opened the windows to see what was happening downstairs and smoke came in fro fro
01:56:21 downstairs and smoke came in fro fro that through the fro through the windows again did you yourself look out of the windows during this call briefly about five to ten seconds but I was looking I
01:56:33 five to ten seconds but I was looking I was looking out of the windows all the time without opening them can we just quickly bring up your plan of your flat
01:56:44 quickly bring up your plan of your flat which is I WS 69 27
01:56:55 we can see that the arrow marks your lounge and there are windows in the lounge facing south and west can you
01:57:07 lounge facing south and west can you tell us which windows the the smoke was coming in from I think we opened the corner window of where I marked on the
01:57:19 corner window of where I marked on the front front of the tower would you mind if you just show us on the lot so that's
01:57:30 if you just show us on the lot so that's the the most the most southwesterly window yes and with the windows closed was there any smoke coming into the
01:57:41 was there any smoke coming into the lounge no there wasn't aside from the front door which you've already given evidence about was there smoke coming in through any other window
01:57:52 smoke coming in through any other window in your property at that time I'll be quite honest I I did not notice smoke coming in for the windows if they did I
01:58:03 coming in for the windows if they did I would have probably I would I would have missed it or I wouldn't notice it and you'd been told in the earlier quarter to block up the door yes and I had that
01:58:17 to block up the door yes and I had that stopped had that how active had that been in stopping his most coming did not really with some towels and put it underneath we blocked the door from
01:58:28 underneath we blocked the door from underneath but from the sides there was still some smoke coming in even if it was little it was still pouring in a more effective that have on you and your wife really started coughing and the
01:58:42 wife really started coughing and the conditions in the corridor which is
01:58:48 worse than conditions in the living room and so did you stay in the living room with their living year and door shut yes we did and was it still black smoke
01:59:00 yes we did and was it still black smoke that was coming in at this time it was let's go back to the transcript and let's look at lfb five zeros four to zero and page eight please
01:59:21 could we expand from the second where it says the second time off the operator speaks the beginning no I don't know what your policy would be what the
01:59:40 operator said asked you is whether you've touched the back of the door with the back of your hand quickly can you feel any heat and you say I'm just going to do that I'm just going to the door
01:59:51 to do that I'm just going to the door now did you actually go and check the heat on the front door yes I did and what was it like it was to a point it
02:00:04 what was it like it was to a point it was hot but it did not do that to that degree it did not burn my hand but it's it did it was hot and I can you compare
02:00:15 it did it was hot and I can you compare the heat to anything to be honest I really don't know I like say you bought
02:00:28 really don't know I like say you bought a hot bread from the you know bakers it's not just came out of the oven immediately but it was left on the side
02:00:41 immediately but it was left on the side for about two minutes it was still hot that that kind of heat so that's the only way I could describe it and what about for example if you touch of a freshly boiled kettle like
02:00:53 touch of a freshly boiled kettle like your hand
02:00:54 your hand no it wasn't as as to the extent of no
02:01:01 before we leave that page could you just scroll up a little bit
02:01:07 what if you pause there you're the cop the person identified does call her mr. magic but you go say we did everything we can to block it I'm not sure where
02:01:18 we can to block it I'm not sure where the fire is and I'm not sure whether we should run outside we don't want to burn alive here and the operator then says no I I don't know what your policy would be but we're just trying to keep you as safe as possible
02:01:30 safe as possible did that phrase that sentence I don't know what your policy would be did that register with you with you at all at the time
02:01:41 time well when window press it just said that
02:01:48 it kind of didn't register with me as to as to what what what the hell is it talking about like what am I to do if you don't know what advice to give me
02:02:00 you don't know what advice to give me how am I supposed to know what I what I'm supposed to do that's the only message I got from that you told us
02:02:11 message I got from that you told us already that you're your smoke alarm your alarms had gone off in your flat yes were they still active during this call yes there was still active during
02:02:22 call yes there was still active during this call and I normally if if I if I said smoke alarms ever if I was cooking
02:02:34 said smoke alarms ever if I was cooking her or burn the pan or something what burnt oil we would just get a stick and press it and turn turn it off manually but at that time I couldn't give a damn if there was going off because you know
02:02:46 if there was going off because you know that was the last thing I in the back of my mind and we're all free to still going off yes can we go to the next page please
02:03:00 and just expand the top third of it you see that the operator must see who
02:03:11 see that the operator must see who blocked up the doorway and you say we did we did with their smokes or coming in then the operator asks and you can't open the window because there's fire outside as well is that correct and you
02:03:23 outside as well is that correct and you say yeah yeah yeah that's correct um what could you see you're in the lounge and in the sitting room you've told us but what could you see from from
02:03:34 told us but what could you see from from the windows of the lounge at this time we could we could see we could see smoke going up on the side of the window coming from underneath and could you see
02:03:47 coming from underneath and could you see any flames at that time at that time no I I can't remember seen any flames
02:03:56 but I have to be correct I didn't look out of the window at that time I just didn't open the window
02:04:07 time I just didn't open the window I just saw the smoke traveling up it did that give you any sense of how close the fire was to your flat yes it did
02:04:18 fire was to your flat yes it did it's like I thought God we are in trouble here maybe someone has to do something and get us out of here could
02:04:31 something and get us out of here could you at that time see anything falling past your windows not that time not that time
02:04:42 now in this call and I'll take you to specific pages if that will help you but otherwise I'll summarize it the advice that you're given is you're told to block doors not to open windows to get
02:04:56 block doors not to open windows to get low to the floor cover your nose and mouth with a wet towel and to keep calm did you follow that advice I did I immediately went to the bathroom and wet
02:05:09 immediately went to the bathroom and wet a towel and put it through my mouth and nose too much white for my face and I was trying to keep low on the floor as much as I could but my wife was
02:05:22 much as I could but my wife was panicking from from this and she was running from room to room and she was also on the phone to her sister well can
02:05:34 also on the phone to her sister well can I take you to pages where you refer to those phone calls if we have side by side please l FB 5 2 0 18 and l FB v 2 0 20
02:05:52 if we have reminding to expand it but if we expand the bottom part of their left be 18 just from okay the operator has asked your names and so she although
02:06:03 asked your names and so she although that I think of a a typographical error the operator asks is is honey for okay you say yes she is but she's on the phone to the relatives and then on the
02:06:14 phone to the relatives and then on the next page if we go again to the bottom of page 20
02:06:24 you refer to honey if a panicking the operator says she's got her face blow to the floor she's still on the telephone and you reply yes years my relatives keep ringing well actually her relatives
02:06:36 keep ringing well actually her relatives keep ringing and also my daughter rang as well what we your relatives telling you about what was going on outside well there was there was telling us that
02:06:49 well there was there was telling us that there's there's big fire and we needed to get out and and we kept telling them we can't that the smoke is preventing us
02:07:02 we can't that the smoke is preventing us from getting outside because I said to them I'm not sure whether my breath is gonna be enough to come down all the way down to the ground through the through
02:07:15 down to the ground through the through the stairwell because I knew I couldn't use the lift anyway and also I wasn't sure whether I was not gonna be
02:07:28 sure whether I was not gonna be confronted by fire as I was coming down the stairs that that was another question mark in the back of my head that was another fair I should say can
02:07:42 that was another fair I should say can we bring up please page 23 of this transcript
02:07:54 and and just if we the second answer for mr. magic down if we expand from there
02:08:05 mr. magic down if we expand from there just down to the bottom of the page and where it begins we don't whether there is some what you're saying there mr. magic we pick up the last part of that sentences of that response we just don't
02:08:19 sentences of that response we just don't know where the fire is the operator says we don't we don't know where it is at the moment okay Center keep calm and if we scroll down the operator is recorded as saying
02:08:36 down the operator is recorded as saying at the very bottom there can we try and get an update from London and if you go over to the next page please
02:08:52 what the operator lays tells you is Sena Sena we think that the firefighters now working their way up from the 14th floor so they should be on the 16th floor very very soon that's what we think is the
02:09:03 very soon that's what we think is the situation so keep calm keep doing what we've just explained for you to do through shallow if shallowly if you can and make sure Hanifa does the same what
02:09:15 and make sure Hanifa does the same what did you think when you were told that the firefighters or that they thought the firefighters were working their way up from the 14th floor good I taught at last they're coming to save us and it
02:09:29 last they're coming to save us and it kind of made me relieved a little to say that if there's some help on the way I
02:09:42 was still scared but I was assured that help is coming it's on the way and I thought they would know how to get us out of here
02:09:57 if we go please to page 28 in the transcript
02:10:09 and again bottom third of the page please expand that
02:10:24 scroll down a little bit please
02:10:34 the operator can we see where it says right we've just has a message to pass on to you and see that mr. Majid so the operators we've just had a message
02:10:45 operators we've just had a message passed on to you if we can if you can get the towels that you've got and you say yeah get them as wet as you possibly can wet them through and then it
02:10:56 can wet them through and then it continues cover yourselves and towels and if we go to the next page cover yourself with the wet towels as much as you possibly can and you are we are we
02:11:07 you possibly can and you are we are we are being instructed to ask you to leave your flat like you've just said you were going to do and we scroll down to the bottom of that page
02:11:28 you say yeah yeah we're going gonna do that we're gonna do that so the firemen can't come here you ask and overleaf page 30 please at the top there the
02:11:46 page 30 please at the top there the operator says that's what they've told me to ask you to do that will be the safest option at the that should be moment so I want you and hernia to do that and you say I'm going to run
02:11:58 that and you say I'm going to run downstairs yeah and the operator says tried to run yes try to run out so the advice you're now given is is changed and what was your reaction to that
02:12:10 and what was your reaction to that change of advice because knowing how smoky it was out there it was a challenge it was I thought god am I
02:12:25 challenge it was I thought god am I gonna be able to do it that was that's what was going through back of my mind I was given the instruction to run down
02:12:36 was given the instruction to run down the stairs but I didn't know what my chances were whether it was 50/50 you know like that's that's what was when I
02:12:47 know like that's that's what was when I said Oh God that's what was going through my mind but we could see why we could live through that or we could make it downstairs or our breath would be
02:12:58 it downstairs or our breath would be enough to go down you know at that time I didn't know
02:13:10 can we go back then to your statement please papa page 15 of ISW 69 and look at paragraphs 85 to 89
02:13:30 this is rather than just actually opening a door it's actually an attempt to try and leave your flat and leave the building now when you made this second
02:13:43 building now when you made this second attempt do you recall whether you and your wife
02:13:47 your wife used wet towels at all yes we did and when you opened your door your front door how far could you see I think we
02:14:00 door how far could you see I think we couldn't even see this much like say 10 centimeters did you have any sense of what had happened to the light lighting in the lobby area no I didn't have any
02:14:14 in the lobby area no I didn't have any sense of what's happened to the lighting I wasn't even sure whether there was on or switched off or whether it was pitch black because of the smoke and what you
02:14:28 black because of the smoke and what you say if we look at paragraph 86 is we walk slowly across the coil to where the fire doors to the stairwell were just
02:14:39 fire doors to the stairwell were just tell us how how are you trying to navigate your way from your friends that stairwell door like put yourself in a blind persons condition and just close
02:14:52 blind persons condition and just close your eyes and try to find the door there you know with your hands that's whenever the fire door was because we believed
02:15:03 the fire door was because we believed there for so long and we just aimed for that angle and try to find it fire fire
02:15:14 that angle and try to find it fire fire door which with our hands and with the lights in your hallway working at the time in our hallway it was working so was there was there light coming from
02:15:25 was there was there light coming from your hallway into but it wouldn't help us at all did you have anything like a torch on your mobile.phone to light your way no I didn't use that
02:15:37 to light your way no I didn't use that at all and as I was holding that a towel and at the same time I will try I was trying to feel the fire escape in
02:15:52 I was trying to feel the fire escape in your statement and it we're looking again at paragraph 86 but you you described getting to the stairwell door and pushing it open and and that there was smoke in the stairwell yes
02:16:04 was smoke in the stairwell yes was there any difference if any between the smoke that you were encountering in the lobby area and the smoke in the stairwell there was exactly the same and
02:16:15 stairwell there was exactly the same and did you have any sense of what the lighting was like in the stairwell it was exactly the same again that you couldn't see nothing
02:16:26 couldn't see nothing when you were and you explained or well let's ask you this but just tell us what was it that prevented you from beginning to go down the stairs I was already out
02:16:38 to go down the stairs I was already out of breath and I started panicking and when I saw that the stairwell full of smoke as well they let me tell you first well when I
02:16:51 they let me tell you first well when I walked out of my flat I didn't know the conditions in the stairwell so I was hoping if I could get to the sterile and if it was smoke-free then I would have
02:17:04 if it was smoke-free then I would have made it I would have been able to come down and run down but as soon as I saw that there was smoke in the stairwells as well I thought no I'm already out of
02:17:17 as well I thought no I'm already out of breath we're not going to make it and it was hot the conditions was hot and it was to the point the hot like air was
02:17:34 was to the point the hot like air was hitting my face and it scared me I thought I'm not gonna do it I'm not gonna have enough breath to run down and
02:17:46 gonna have enough breath to run down and that's what made me decide not to continue with the escape and I turned back and you made your way back to your flat
02:17:55 flat I did um and I think you explained because of the way your door work do you had to hide closed it behind me as I was
02:18:06 had to hide closed it behind me as I was escaping and then I had to open the door again but this time I couldn't see the keyhole so I just took the keys out of my pocket and I was trying to feel the
02:18:18 my pocket and I was trying to feel the keyhole on the door and it while I was doing that honey fool was panicking and she was saying to me oh my god quick
02:18:30 she was saying to me oh my god quick quick
02:18:30 quick Shen or open the door open the door we're gonna die here we're gonna collapse here and and I was panicking as well I was thinking cause what if I can't open the door and I managed to
02:18:41 can't open the door and I managed to find the keyhole and I managed to put the key fruit fruit to the keyhole and I tell you that that was a mission I I did
02:18:53 tell you that that was a mission I I did manage to open the door and we just run back inside um you described in MEMS go that it was hot when you left your flattened and moved out into the the lobby area what
02:19:06 moved out into the the lobby area what was the heat like in that part of Erle well I think it was hotter than a you know sauna in a Turkish bath and much
02:19:17 know sauna in a Turkish bath and much water I would say you know the hate hate is unbearable it's like sticking your head in the into an oven and when you
02:19:31 head in the into an oven and when you got to the stairwell what was the heat like there it was the same said there was no difference in technology difference no difference at all but I did not venture fully into this terrible
02:19:44 did not venture fully into this terrible I just kept the door open and throw the conditions and as was one foot was in the in in the stairwell and I quickly
02:19:57 the in in the stairwell and I quickly decided to run back and so again doing the best that you can but can you estimate how much time you spent out in that landing area the time
02:20:08 spent out in that landing area the time it took to go to the door a stairwell door and come back to your own flat I'm not 100% accurate on that but it seemed ages and it might have been one minute
02:20:22 ages and it might have been one minute maybe one and a half two minutes um was there any difference in visibility between the the lobby area and the stairwell no it was as you described but
02:20:37 stairwell no it was as you described but being a public pitch-black a blind man trying to find a door yes what you say about the stairwell though is that it
02:20:49 about the stairwell though is that it felt like there was no oxygen and I couldn't breathe had it been it was it easier to breathe when you were in the lobby or was it because your breath if I think it's the
02:21:00 because your breath if I think it's the same conditions in the stairwell or in the in the lobby if we look at the bottom of the the part of your stating that we've got up on screen we you say
02:21:12 that we've got up on screen we you say that when you got back into the flat you went into the living room close to the door of the living room to try and get away from the smoke there was thick back smoke pouring into the flat and closing the door of the living room didn't stop
02:21:23 the door of the living room didn't stop it from coming in so how was this thick black smoke getting into your flat well it was traveling all the way from the lobby area where the lifts are
02:21:36 lobby area where the lifts are underneath the door to our corridor and from corridor it was filling with the smoke and the smoke was pushing into into our living room from underneath the
02:21:48 into our living room from underneath the living room doors and what did you do to try and stop that smoke coming in again we put towels underneath the living room
02:21:59 we put towels underneath the living room doors as well but it didn't stop it either because there was gaps between the doors and there was already enough smoke poured in
02:22:13 so that the where we've got to now mr. Majid is that you you've had your your second 999 call which which took just under half an hour you've now made your second attempt to
02:22:26 you've now made your second attempt to leave and you've come back to your flat there was then you then made a number of calls to 999 all of which went to the London Fire Brigade do you have a
02:22:37 London Fire Brigade do you have a recollection of making those calls I do can I won't I'll take you to them briefly just to ask some additional questions but can I take you to a number
02:22:50 questions but can I take you to a number of those calls and I'll take you to them in time sequence the first one is lfb 5-0 372
02:23:09 as I explained before the the reference at the top gives us the time and this is a call that's at 241 and 31 seconds can
02:23:21 a call that's at 241 and 31 seconds can you help us how soon after you had made that second attempt to get out that you then rang that the 999 again yes I think
02:23:33 then rang that the 999 again yes I think it would be immediately after I got back into the living room because I was in a desperate position and the only people could who could help me was the fire for
02:23:45 could who could help me was the fire for fire brigade if we go to page 3 of this
02:24:11 so if you get a page five sorry
02:24:28 so let's go back to page three my apologies for health budget if we take the bottom of page three please if you
02:24:40 the bottom of page three please if you see at the bottom there the the operator asks whether you're able to get yourself out for the property safely and you say no no they tried ran back and if we go
02:24:53 no no they tried ran back and if we go to the next page at the top please top half operator says right you can't get out
02:25:02 out okay listen and you say there's so much black smoke and the operators and said advises you to get some towels make them damp and put them and you say we did it
02:25:14 damp and put them and you say we did it already and the operator then says yeah put them around you as well okay or some sheets or something like that put them around you as well and if it's not not definitely not safe
02:25:25 and if it's not not definitely not safe to get out and then if we scroll down to the bottom of the page a bit further down was there what would the operator
02:25:36 down was there what would the operator also says is well I'm gonna tell them on the radio so the operator asks whether it's safe to get out and you say no and
02:25:47 it's safe to get out and you say no and then the operator tells you to put damp towels around you what did you take from the fact that the operator was going to pass a message on the radio that we
02:25:58 pass a message on the radio that we tried a second time it was second attempt and we couldn't leave and we were still trapped in there and what I
02:26:11 were still trapped in there and what I thought that the operator was gonna tell tell the fire brigade that we are still trapped in our flat and also it might
02:26:23 trapped in our flat and also it might have been that I requested at that time I refer to it as oxygen masks like breathing approaches raising sets
02:26:38 and can I take you to the next call that you made sure which is at 2:49 and five seconds and it's at lfb five zeroes
02:26:51 seconds and it's at lfb five zeroes three eight two please page one of that
02:26:58 this is only a few minutes after that call that we've just been looking at was it was there anything that made you call 999 again good I used to be honest I
02:27:09 999 again good I used to be honest I really can't remember why I made the second call I suppose now I can't remember why I made the second call if
02:27:21 remember why I made the second call if we go to the bottom of page two please
02:27:33 and
02:27:37 well the operator says is right listen to what I'm going to say you need to try and get yourself outside the property I know there's a lot of smoke so what you need to do is you need to put towels and
02:27:48 need to do is you need to put towels and some sheets around your head and around your body put a damp towel around your face and you need to try and get out of the property together safely and you ask to the stairs and if you go over to the next page the operator says to the
02:28:02 next page the operator says to the stairs you then ask if is there smoking the stairs and the operator says I don't know I can't see but you need to try and get away from where you are safely to try and get outside and you say okay and
02:28:15 try and get outside and you say okay and then if we scroll down a little bit well the operator also tells you there's a lot of firemen about and they're all on different floors scroll up a bit please so you should be able to once you
02:28:26 please so you should be able to once you get outside safely and you should be able to see a fireman and they'll help you down the stairs this is 249 as I told you did you at that time try to open the flat door to
02:28:40 that time try to open the flat door to go out
02:28:47 that's I can't recall that to be honest
02:28:55 if we go to and the next call in the sequence that you made which is at lfb five zeros three nine eight please
02:29:19 that's a call at 3:02 and 27 seconds if we go to the next page
02:29:32 it's just the bottom half from where the operator says okay what we're advising people to do operator says what we're
02:29:45 people to do operator says what we're advising to do people to do is leave the building and you explained you couldn't went back inside and the operator says so you try to leave and now you're back inside and you say yeah yeah it's and
02:29:57 inside and you say yeah yeah it's and then the operator says why couldn't you leave was the smoke too bad or was it a fire and you say too bad too bad and what what you're being told is that it
02:30:09 what what you're being told is that it you have to leave but you say you've tried now this is a few minutes after that call that I showed you of 249 does that help you at all whether you off to
02:30:22 that help you at all whether you off to that 249 call you might have tried to leave again I still can't remember so you could could you be referring to your
02:30:33 you could could you be referring to your earlier attempt to try and leave it could be
02:30:44 if we go to the next page please bottom half again
02:30:57 the operator having confirmed your flat says his smoke or a fire coming inside your flat and you say smoke coming inside this is now just after 3 o'clock
02:31:08 inside this is now just after 3 o'clock in the morning do you have a recollection of where the smoke was coming into your flat at this time yes it was this time it was coming through
02:31:19 still coming for underneath it and underneath the doors so even at that time that there wasn't smoke coming through the windows that I'm not sure
02:31:31 through the windows that I'm not sure 100%
02:31:32 100% where were you still in your living room yes I was still in the living room and do you have any memory of smoke coming through the windows of the living room no I don't have any memory of smoke
02:31:45 no I don't have any memory of smoke coming in through the windows at that time but don't get me wrong today that it could have been coming through the
02:31:56 it could have been coming through the windows or I didn't notice it because I was I was in such a shock that I was so concerned about my my my me and my my
02:32:09 concerned about my my my me and my my wife's life so so I couldn't give you accurate accurate information on that I
02:32:21 accurate accurate information on that I know it's it's hard to know back but asking you to go back was was your primary concern smoke coming through the front door yes can I just look at page 4 of that
02:32:34 can I just look at page 4 of that transcript please the operator says and you're sure you can't make a run for it you're sure you can't go and you say we tried we tried twice we couldn't breathe
02:32:47 tried we tried twice we couldn't breathe and we couldn't see anything that would suggest that that you'd only made two attempts that's Beluga you hadn't gone out again well yes that's correct
02:33:03 can I ask you just look at the the next call that you made and that's at lfb four one six please
02:33:14 now that's at 312 and 56 seconds now again so that's about ten minutes after
02:33:25 again so that's about ten minutes after your last 999 call had anything changed that had now prompted you to make another 999 call well we we was taught
02:33:43 another 999 call well we we was taught that the fireman was coming and there was like on the 14th floor and I was constantly asking where they are or you know whether they're gonna come or
02:33:54 know whether they're gonna come or whether they continue and I was thinking to myself that I'm not going to be able to make it downstairs without the breathing apparatus they need to come and say what's with the breathing
02:34:05 and say what's with the breathing apparatus that's that's what I was hoping
02:34:08 hoping it's you've been told now in calls to get out yes it was it was stopping you from getting out I think I didn't have the courage to come out I was still
02:34:20 the courage to come out I was still scared because I would I was thinking that I'm not gonna be able to make it if we look at page 2 of this transcript the
02:34:33 we look at page 2 of this transcript the bottom there
02:34:39 and you say you're a star you bet are you able to get out through the door with the wet towels and you say no I'm nearly fainting I don't think I can make
02:34:50 nearly fainting I don't think I can make it the reference to nearly fainting what was happening to you at that time I felt dizzy I felt that I was having difficult
02:35:09 dizzy I felt that I was having difficult to breathe breathing and also I was coughing constantly and I thought I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pass out any minute
02:35:20 minute does does that's why I said I'm I'm I'm nearly fainting because I thought that the whole energy is drained out of my
02:35:33 the whole energy is drained out of my body
02:35:34 body and what were the smoke conditions like in your flat at that time it was becoming like very densely that the
02:35:47 becoming like very densely that the smoke was getting very fake say for example I was on the floor trying to get
02:35:59 example I was on the floor trying to get more oxygen and sometimes my wife would be standing up and I couldn't see her face it was to the point not much and with that were you still
02:36:11 not much and with that were you still always in your living room yes did you have the lights on in your living room we had the lights on in the living room so even with the lights you you couldn't see your wife's face yes if I was on oh if I was law downstairs and
02:36:24 I was on oh if I was law downstairs and log down on the floor and she was standing and 2 meters away in front of me she was standing up I couldn't see her face mr. Chen and I've still got
02:36:36 her face mr. Chen and I've still got quite a few more questions I'm afraid but well I was going to I'd say about I
02:36:48 but well I was going to I'd say about I suppose I think realistically we'll will go to five if we were to continue well I think yes mr. Majan how you feeling so
02:37:01 think yes mr. Majan how you feeling so afternoon are you so I'm feeling fine I I think I can go on you can yes I can I mean mr. Owen thinks he might want to ask you questions for as much as half an hour could you do that
02:37:12 hour could you do that that's not problem so if you are comfortable they're uncomfortable we will carry on but if you get to a point when it's becoming a bit too much will
02:37:23 when it's becoming a bit too much will you make sure I'm aware of that thank you sir thank you very much from then thank you mr. magic the transcribers and
02:37:37 thank you mr. magic the transcribers and the document managers that know all right to keep going and the ashes to
02:37:45 thank you to everyone can I go to the last call for which we have a transcript mr. magician that sir LF b50 is 14/3
02:37:56 mr. magician that sir LF b50 is 14/3 please
02:38:04 this is a call timed at 3:33 and 46 the last call for which we have a transcript and if you go to the third
02:38:16 transcript and if you go to the third page please in fact I won't take you to but it in in this call you're again told
02:38:27 but it in in this call you're again told by the operator to get out but if we look at the bottom half of that page if that's expanded what you've the operators later are see so are you sure
02:38:40 operators later are see so are you sure you can't and that's a reference to getting out I mean honestly that's what they're telling everybody now and you say no no you're asked whether you tried and you said we did we did three times and we run back inside so there's a
02:38:53 and we run back inside so there's a reference there to three times and that would suggest that between the last call at 3:12 and this call which is some twenty minutes you had made an attempt to leave yes we did what happened during
02:39:04 to leave yes we did what happened during that attempt as same again I think my courage wasn't there again I just couldn't do it I just run back inside
02:39:22 the
02:39:31 how far did you get from your flat door do you remember again to the to the to the stairwell and as soon as I saw the black smoke was still there I just don't know it's not going to be
02:39:44 I just don't know it's not going to be possible because what I was hoping I was hoping that by the time I get to the stairwells the smoke would have been cleared from there that's what I was
02:39:56 cleared from there that's what I was hoping the were the conditions on this third attempt to leave any different from on the previous one the second one
02:40:07 from on the previous one the second one exactly the same exactly the same and what we I've taken you through is a series of sequence of 999 calls which go over about 45 minutes so we're now at
02:40:21 over about 45 minutes so we're now at 333 if you go back an hour how had the conditions changed in the preceding hour in your flat oh I think it it's that the
02:40:34 in your flat oh I think it it's that the conditions was almost almost same as the corridor not the court of the Dead lobby area where the lifts are but it was
02:40:47 area where the lifts are but it was still bearable very bearable in my flat in in the living room just just barely
02:40:58 know it's right that your recollection is after this cord you made another call to 999 how soon after this call do you think you made that that final call I
02:41:13 can't remember and but do you remember anything about that final call at all
02:41:22 yes I do I I think that that transcript or did that call it is missing from from but the lady said to me what floor are
02:41:39 but the lady said to me what floor are you I said I'm on the 60th floor sixteenth floor and she said you're still there I said yes sir - waiting for you know for help
02:41:53 yes sir - waiting for you know for help she said now you have to run downstairs and I'm going to tell you this you're on your own your only option is to run downstairs she said you have to run
02:42:09 downstairs she said you have to run downstairs there's nobody coming to save you and I said look I'm 56 and my wife is the same age and I you know we bought not fit people we're not gonna make it
02:42:22 not fit people we're not gonna make it we're gonna we're gonna drown in the smoke he said I'm afraid you're on your own if you don't run down the stairs I'm afraid you know you're not gonna make it
02:42:34 afraid you know you're not gonna make it that's what she said to us and what decision will give you then faced with well at that time there was already debris falling from the top and there
02:42:48 debris falling from the top and there was cracking sounds of my windows and I saw that Mike Mike
02:42:59 saw that Mike Mike Curtin's was on fire and I opened that did the living room door to collect something from the Wardrobe a brief
02:43:12 something from the Wardrobe a brief couple of seconds maybe you know it's like you open the door you just have a glance and you just register as much as you can you know then close the door
02:43:26 you can you know then close the door because I saw there was paint melting and dripping from the ceiling in that two seconds that's what I so and my curtains was on fire my bed was on fire
02:43:37 curtains was on fire my bed was on fire my wardrobe was on fire and say this was in your bedroom yes and the heat of the fire hit my face and I quickly shut shut the door and that's when I came back and
02:43:52 the door and that's when I came back and I said God is we're gonna have to do it we're gonna have to run on the stairs because we don't want to burn alive here I said then I thought we
02:44:03 burn alive here I said then I thought we have to wet ourselves it to to to resist against a fire so I put three buckets of
02:44:14 against a fire so I put three buckets of water on my wife's head we don't start off with water and we put wet towels around our faces and I said to her no
02:44:26 around our faces and I said to her no matter what happens we're gonna have to run out of this door and this time we're not coming back ever and don't answer
02:44:37 not coming back ever and don't answer any phone calls concentrate on getting downstairs I said we're gonna have to try it we're gonna have to try it and don't stop for anything I said till we
02:44:50 don't stop for anything I said till we get downstairs we have to try we have to run and that was the last attempt could I take you just to the plan that's of
02:45:02 I take you just to the plan that's of your flat plains which is iws 69 page 29 please
02:45:17 so I think um 27 yep
02:45:35 in your statement when you're dealing with this you you describe that you saw the glass of the windows in the living room crack and shatter like the explosion which windows are that though
02:45:47 explosion which windows are that though the ones on the on the south of ones on the west I can't remember not it would be that because yeah it would be the
02:46:00 be that because yeah it would be the front of the building I'll show you I think this side so the ones on the on the south side yes and then you you say
02:46:14 the south side yes and then you you say in your statement that you saw the curtains catch fire yes were you already getting ready to leave by there if it was already getting ready to live and I think we only picked up
02:46:27 to live and I think we only picked up our passport facts and you know identity cards and this and that you know things like that mobile phone and nothing else it was just concerned about you know our
02:46:39 it was just concerned about you know our identity and the the one you checked what you you the bedroom that you when you open the door of was your bedroom was that is that B 2 or B 1 B 2 and and
02:46:52 was that is that B 2 or B 1 B 2 and and that was the only bedroom any room other room you went oh my wife already seen this fire and the b1 already seen the fire and the b1 so and was this all as about the same time that you saw that
02:47:03 about the same time that you saw that the window shattering there now look all at the same time but I didn't go into the b1 by just like briefly open the door to the B to see you've already told
02:47:16 door to the B to see you've already told us that you then left the flat yes and what you told your wife about what you both needed to do now what were the conditions like compared to your
02:47:28 conditions like compared to your previous attempts when you went out into the communal area this time I remember it was exactly the same condition
02:47:39 what was the heat like it was very hot it was very hot by this time I could
02:47:50 it was very hot by this time I could feel that my eyebrows like getting like how shall I not burnt but like it's kind
02:48:01 how shall I not burnt but like it's kind of not burnt completely but I could feel that there was there was affected a little and you compared the heat earlier
02:48:17 little and you compared the heat earlier said to worse than a Turkish sauna what was it like now good it was exactly the same as a result of this my wife's eyes
02:48:28 same as a result of this my wife's eyes stuck and she couldn't open them for three days she had some I dropped treatments and was there any difference
02:48:40 treatments and was there any difference with the conditions that you encountered in the stairwell the the conditions on the stairwell was same but as we was
02:48:51 the stairwell was same but as we was coming down I had noticed as we was descending it it became bearable it became much better can you remember what
02:49:02 became much better can you remember what how far you had descended before it became much better I think on the eighth floor we could see something if it was in front of us on the floor you
02:49:16 in front of us on the floor you described the smokers toxic and tasting poisonous didn't have an immediate effect on you yes I was coughing constantly and I couldn't breathe even
02:49:30 constantly and I couldn't breathe even when we was taken to the Lattimore road trip station where they you know assembled all the survivors we
02:49:41 you know assembled all the survivors we was given oxygen masks to breathe and I couldn't breathe and I I was thinking why can't I breathe and then I realized that I had some stuff in the in my nose
02:49:54 that I had some stuff in the in my nose and in my throat and I coughed and I excused my thing but III had to clean my throat with the water and some black
02:50:05 throat with the water and some black stuff came out of my mouth it was blocking my nostrils it was blocking my fraud that's why I wasn't able to get some oxygen so I told my wife to do the same and she washed her mouth she was
02:50:19 same and she washed her mouth she was she washed her nose that was the only way we could breathe and just just remind us when when you left your view you just described earlier that you doused yourselves with with water
02:50:32 how were you covered up when you left your flat oh I was wearing a suit and my wife was wearing a blouse and did you have any towels around you or just a
02:50:44 have any towels around you or just a towel around my face my my wife tried to let some dressing gowns and put put them on but I'd so I said to myself no this is this is gonna be too heavy if you're
02:50:56 is this is gonna be too heavy if you're not gonna be able to escape with this so I took them off instead of I put three buckets of water on on each of us and at that time it was and this is the
02:51:10 that time it was and this is the bathroom
02:51:11 bathroom sorry yes this is the bathroom we were standing on the corridor house as I poured she she was in such a shock she
02:51:22 poured she she was in such a shock she she said what do you mean you making the carpet wet
02:51:30 and so did you both go out with a with a towel covering your mouth and your nose and as far as you can remember mr. magic as you went down the stairwell were you able to keep that over your mouth I was
02:51:43 able to keep that over your mouth I was able to keep that over my mouth all the way done you said a while ago that about the 8th floor it began to to get light
02:51:55 as you on your descent and it was there any time in which you you notice that the smoke was less or the temperature got better I think after the 10th floor it was getting a bit better now one of
02:52:09 it was getting a bit better now one of the features of your statement is that you're able you were able to identify specific floors in relation to that descent I won't take you today's paragraphs but how did you identify the
02:52:21 paragraphs but how did you identify the floors I was as I was descending I was subtracting how many floors I came down in my mind so as I was coming down from 16th floor to 15th floor I was saying
02:52:34 16th floor to 15th floor I was saying okay that's one gone to the 14th floor I was saying okay I'm on 14th floor now that's how that's how I was you know counting them in my in my mind as I as I
02:52:47 counting them in my in my mind as I as I turned and come to the base of the base of the fire doors said all the questions
02:52:59 of the fire doors said all the questions I have quick five minutes if I may just try to do here as you heard mr. Robert
02:53:11 try to do here as you heard mr. Robert thinks he's asked all the questions he needs to ask you but he needs a moment to check that that's the case so we're going to break for five minutes give him a chance to do sure and we'll come back
02:53:22 a chance to do sure and we'll come back at 10:00 to 5:00 and see are any more questions really nice sir thank you very much nice together the option piece right ten to five in please
03:00:42 you
03:01:09 yes well a few questions no doubt is to very few it's jammed thank you all right thank you
03:01:30 [Music] no mr. mention I think just a few questions yes mister thank you very much mr. magic it's one point just to ask for
03:01:44 mr. magic it's one point just to ask for your help with and it's this do you remember that I took you to the transcript of that long 999 call you had the 27 minute one which began at 2:10
03:01:55 the 27 minute one which began at 2:10 just that we're going to do you remember that call making that call before or after your second attempt to leave right
03:02:07 after your second attempt to leave right I'll be quite clear sir I I can't remember it so I won't give you a wrong answer um well there's only one matter more for me to ask you and it's this and
03:02:19 more for me to ask you and it's this and before I do that and I thank you for your patience and the way in which you've answered my questions thank you but it's this putting aside your two
03:02:31 but it's this putting aside your two statements and putting aside the answers that you've given to all my questions today is there anything else that you saw or heard on the night of the fire
03:02:44 saw or heard on the night of the fire that you think it's important to draw to the attention of the Chairman well I have seen helicopter hovering up and I didn't know what it was doing whether it
03:02:58 didn't know what it was doing whether it was trying to help the survivors and that's that's one thing we see I saw a lot of people shouting from outside get
03:03:13 lot of people shouting from outside get out get out and some people was also I do remember this some people was also I just remembered now shining a torch at
03:03:25 just remembered now shining a torch at at the windows as to say get out get out I do remember that now that's that's
03:03:36 I do remember that now that's that's about it
03:03:37 about it well thank you very much again thank you well mr. mansion thank you very much indeed for coming to give us your evidence your experience must have been
03:03:48 evidence your experience must have been completely terrifying and you you've told us you were very frightened and I can't imagine anyone not being as frightened as you were it was very dreadful experience and I'm sorry in a
03:04:01 dreadful experience and I'm sorry in a way that we've had to ask you to relive it and tell us all about it but it's very helpful to us to hear about conditions inside the tower at different places at different times and so I'm really I'm very grateful than your
03:04:12 really I'm very grateful than your evidence we're very helpful thank you thank you very much for coming to give it - all right well now you're free to go if you'd like to give you the ushers you learned may I just say a couple of
03:04:24 you learned may I just say a couple of things say yes yes of course in the first place may offer my condolences to everyone who lost relatives in this tragic fire I
03:04:38 lost relatives in this tragic fire I hope they're at peace and because of this fire my immediate family suffered a lot and I hope that we find answers and
03:04:58 also I hope that this kind of tragic things doesn't happen to other families the lessons are learned from this that's
03:05:09 the lessons are learned from this that's all I can say sir well that's thank you very much indeed thank you sir thank you again for coming
03:05:29 yes mr. Rowland mr. chairman that that is the evidence for today yes so will and in terms of witnesses we will be resuming with witnesses on Monday right
03:05:42 resuming with witnesses on Monday right thank you very much well at that point we will break and on Monday morning at 10 o'clock we will look forward to hearing from some more witnesses yes
03:05:54 hearing from some more witnesses yes thank you