Nicholas Burton gives evidence - survivor from flat 165 (floor 19) with his wife Maria del Pilar (Pili) who had dementia. Describes old fire safety plaque disappearing, confusing floor renumbering after refurbishment, new fire panel with 'little red box', and his two 999 calls before being rescued.
00:00:05 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing before we begin I need to say something the inquiry is aware of the offensive video that was posted online
00:00:18 offensive video that was posted online yesterday it must be shocking and distressing to all those involved whatever way their involvement whatever form their involvement - whether as the
00:00:30 form their involvement - whether as the read survivors or indeed members of the wider community I'm very pleased to hear that the authorities are taking the matter very seriously and that investigation is underway thank you now
00:00:44 investigation is underway thank you now just a minute yes Thank You mr. chairman mr. chairman our next witness is mr. Nicholas Burton good thank you
00:01:17 I swear by almighty doors I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I should be that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth whole truth and nothing but
00:01:28 whole truth whole truth and nothing but the truth nothing but the charge thank you thank you very much just sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:40 [Music] yes mr. Burton good morning good morning can I ask you please to give the enquiry your full name my name is Nicholas trevannion Burton and can I start by
00:01:53 trevannion Burton and can I start by thanking you very much for coming here and giving evidence to the inquiry it's an immensely appreciated your and you your contribution is very valuable to us
00:02:04 your contribution is very valuable to us it will not be easy for you to relive the events of that terrible night so if at any time you feel you need a break we want me to stop for a few minutes I'm
00:02:15 want me to stop for a few minutes I'm very happy to do that we will aim to sit for no longer than an hour at a time to give you a proper chance to have a break and to relax for a moment thank you um I should just all say say this sometimes
00:02:26 should just all say say this sometimes when you're answering my questions it may look as if I'm not listening to you because I'm looking at the screen or my notes I am very much listening to what you're saying and it's just that I have to follow it sometimes on the screen now
00:02:39 to follow it sometimes on the screen now you've done a witness statement for the inquiry which is iws 64 and can I please ask that we put on the screen in front
00:02:50 ask that we put on the screen in front of you you'll have it in two places either in the the paper folder in front of you there on the desk or on the monitor on your desk to the right whichever is easiest for you to follow in we can go with that and my first
00:03:03 in we can go with that and my first question is is that the first page of your witness statement um yes this can I ask you please to turn to page 22 you'll see a statement of
00:03:16 to page 22 you'll see a statement of truth of the signature underneath it over the date at the bottom of the 24th of April 2000 is that your signature correct that's my signature have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently um yes I
00:03:28 read this statement recently um yes I have and can you confirm that its contents are true yes I can thank you now there are two exhibits to it the first which is nt be one with an inquiry
00:03:39 first which is nt be one with an inquiry reference of iw s63 there's a floor plan of flat 165 if we can just have that on the screen please is that your first exhibit yes it is that's flat 165 yeah
00:03:52 exhibit yes it is that's flat 165 yeah and the second is nt B 2 which is I WS 65 which I think is your la s record from the 14th of June 2017
00:04:04 from the 14th of June 2017 yeah the ambulance record yes exactly thank you now can I start by asking you a number of background questions on page 1 of your statement you say and I'm summarizing in June well as at June 2017
00:04:19 summarizing in June well as at June 2017 you lived at flat 165 grenfell tower with your wife Maria del Pilar Burton yes I did
00:04:25 yes I did and as I think you tell us at paragraph 2 she was the original tenant of flat 165 yes nobody else have ever lived in that flat she moved in I don't under
00:04:37 that flat she moved in I don't under date but early when the flats were were built yes you say in your statement about 1975 yeah that's a s when she told me that she was the first person in that
00:04:48 me that she was the first person in that flat when it was new right and I think you both purchased the flat as lease holders in 1994 yeah that's correct yes and as a lease holder were you a member
00:05:00 and as a lease holder were you a member of the grand felt our lease holders Association yes I was we made an association to you know communicate between ourselves and to help each other yes as at June 2017
00:05:13 yes as at June 2017 mr. Burton were you yourself in good health and was your wife in in good health at the time not at the time my
00:05:25 health at the time not at the time my wife was was sick for a few years and so suffering with dementia now can I ask you about some aspects of fire safety
00:05:37 you about some aspects of fire safety awareness now you cover these in your statement of paragraph 59 which is on page 16 of your statement at
00:05:48 which is on page 16 of your statement at subparagraph 7 just towards the top of the page and you say I remember that there were notices regarding fire safety
00:06:00 there were notices regarding fire safety when I moved in in the 1980s there was a plaque next to the notice board which was a safety notice and said do not use the lifts in the event of a fire just
00:06:11 the lifts in the event of a fire just pausing there can I ask you to be shown iws quad of quadruple zero 500
00:06:25 No do you recognize this I do yes is that the note the plaque that you're referring to that is definitely the plaque das referred to yes right and do
00:06:36 plaque das referred to yes right and do you remember where that plaque was situated yes is in the main lobby area opposite the lifts on them on the back wall was it anywhere else in the tower
00:06:48 wall was it anywhere else in the tower not that I noticed remember just remember it being on that wall on all the floors and how long was
00:06:59 wall on all the floors and how long was it there for let let me try that oh where did it disappear he probably just it put he disappeared when they I don't know what year they they decorated the lobby area and they'd put a metal
00:07:14 the lobby area and they'd put a metal plastic information board was never had any information on it and that was kind of a bolted on top or they may have removed that and then put that against the wall so just facing you know the
00:07:26 the wall so just facing you know the doors of the lift was that before the most recent refurbishment oh yeah this is years no I see right it's when they
00:07:37 is years no I see right it's when they tiled the lobby area so a refurbishment prior to the most recent one yeah they did some work years ago and just made
00:07:49 did some work years ago and just made nice lion-o and and color tiles do you remember what this plaque was replaced with so far as fire safety information is um no it wasn't actually
00:08:01 information is um no it wasn't actually place was just the board was just put on top of it right so remembering any other fire safety aspects after that was there a time then or a period during which
00:08:13 a time then or a period during which there was no fire safety information posted publicly in Grantville tower yeah I didn't notice any any more information there may have been
00:08:27 the only other one maybe they may have been a little red plaque maybe they said maybe it's a dry rise out on one one end but I can't believe we saw that ok can I
00:08:40 but I can't believe we saw that ok can I ask you please to be shown inq six zeros 93 and have you ever seen this sign before in Granville town yeah I've seen
00:08:52 before in Granville town yeah I've seen this sign where it was on if I was looking under at the lifts both the lifts doors it was on the left hand side there's a new sticker they put maybe a few months before they stuck it on the
00:09:04 few months before they stuck it on the wall
00:09:05 wall after the refurbishment was it on your floor it was on my floor on other floors oh yeah absolutely what about in the lobby I figured in the
00:09:20 what about in the lobby I figured in the main might be weathered wood it lifts on the ground floor I mean it may have been there as well I can't you know say a hundred said but I guess it would be there if they've they put on all the
00:09:32 there if they've they put on all the floors to give people information over there or it may have been on the board there was a board on the ground floor where the lifts are there was a information board there was information
00:09:44 information board there was information there and it may have been on there as well
00:09:47 well and you say that it was a new sticker that they put maybe a few months before yeah on the wall can we put some timing
00:09:58 yeah on the wall can we put some timing on that you say a few months before a few months before what but definitely improve in 2017 during 2000 17 years now before during default 2017 was there any
00:10:11 before during default 2017 was there any fire safety information publicly posted in grenfell tower that you can remember not that I can remember it may have put something on the board down on the ground floor but I can't necessarily see
00:10:25 ground floor but I can't necessarily see anything that was in the the communal area especially when they built the new cupboards to house the the pipes or the water did you ever read this notice yes already else I'm quite curious about
00:10:38 already else I'm quite curious about things
00:10:38 things all right what was your takeaway message from it um it's just about you know the fire safety notice to say there's a fire to stay put in in your flat and you know
00:10:52 to stay put in in your flat and you know so you know there's nothing telling us you know stay put really right now what what to do in the if there was a fire so
00:11:03 what to do in the if there was a fire so there's a bit that says leave the building please apart from this notice were you aware of any information from any organization or any individual about what you should do
00:11:14 any individual about what you should do if there was a fire anywhere in the block I can't remember Pacific kind of conversations I've had conversations with fire officers in the past there's
00:11:28 with fire officers in the past there's been fires there's been a fire on my floor honest the old 60 floor them to the 19th floor there's been a fire on my actual floor so I've got I had a conversation and they may of give us an
00:11:41 conversation and they may of give us an information pack they did not may offer they gave us an information pack one time the TMO and they had little booklets and everything in there but that please just got put in the cupboard
00:11:52 that please just got put in the cupboard and never to reveal itself again but my understanding is that I would stay in my in my flat because there was no way that
00:12:07 in my flat because there was no way that a fire to get to the flatness is in your place at the time now you mentioned a moment ago you said
00:12:20 moment ago you said old sixteenth floor the 19th floor I could take this question out of order but let me do it anyway do you remember whether after the refurbishment when the
00:12:31 whether after the refurbishment when the floor numbers were changed the numbering in the stairwell changed yes it did yeah they put I think this was dodgy stencils
00:12:42 they put I think this was dodgy stencils and some of them were over the top of of other numbers they you'd think that you'd had million pound refurbishment that you would you know make sure that
00:12:54 that you would you know make sure that the stairs have been painted and nice but they'd left all of that and then just put I was very confusing for everybody you know especially maybe for the fire department on the night of the
00:13:05 the fire department on the night of the fire the confusion was because in the old days it was like my flat was 165 so that means 60 floor flat five year it's simple the the numbers but then to be
00:13:16 simple the the numbers but then to be told that you're now on the 19th floor was was very confusing for for everybody and did the stencils on the wall of the
00:13:30 and did the stencils on the wall of the stairwell on each floor accurately identify the floor number as at the night of the fire I think so
00:13:43 night of the fire I think so I mean I think I've actually because I've walked up and down those stairs a lot you know the lifts are out you've got shopping and she's pretty cursing on the old way up to the 19th floor and I
00:13:56 the old way up to the 19th floor and I may remember that some of them fraud maybe didn't even have numbers or they didn't do it correctly well I think mine had 19 for yours had 19 yeah I believe
00:14:07 had 19 for yours had 19 yeah I believe so
00:14:07 so right and you refer to the stencils as dodgy why do you say that because it's you know I believed if they just had this major refurbishment they could have
00:14:20 this major refurbishment they could have decorated the the stairwell it was just you know in a must they didn't do nothing to the stairwell and I figured it just looked very tacky on the wall it wasn't
00:14:31 wasn't you know a clear sign you know saying this is the 19th floor it was it was just a kind of black stencil so made just sprayed on right yeah it wasn't
00:14:42 just sprayed on right yeah it wasn't very they were that creative did you have any trouble seeing it they knotless no no
00:15:02 apparent page 16 of your statement while we're still on it can I ask you to look at paragraph 10 you you say they're in the second line we used to have an old
00:15:14 the second line we used to have an old fire panel which would show which flat the fire alarm was coming from and we used to have a concierge downstairs the new fire panel didn't show where the fire was or where the alarm is coming from this was a concern and you also go
00:15:31 from this was a concern and you also go on to say that you observe the fire brigade having problems accessing the tower had to let them in to the town several - okay yes now just on that
00:15:44 several - okay yes now just on that where was the old panel located yeah reason on the ground floor and there was a big fire panel of just the old light so if an alarm went off in the tower if
00:15:56 so if an alarm went off in the tower if I okay could just come in see which floor and then go straight to the - deal where the alarm was going off after the refurbishment they moved that panel to
00:16:07 refurbishment they moved that panel to the second floor where the walkways where you get out to the walkway before they blocked that off and then then they took it all all away and then there was this as you go into the atrium of the
00:16:21 this as you go into the atrium of the building on the left-hand side before the second door to get to the lift there was a little a little red box panel which nobody knew what it was so the couple of times that the fire brigade
00:16:34 couple of times that the fire brigade arrived at the tower when I was down walking my dog I had to give him entrance to the tower and they asked one time they asked me where's the fire panel and I said this is the box and I
00:16:47 panel and I said this is the box and I said no that's not it and then went through to the next door and there we were they're like trying to look where the fire panel was where the drive eyes are was and where the you know it was
00:17:00 are was and where the you know it was very difficult for the fire brigade to understand and as I was talking to my they said that they actually weren't from North Kensington or low they were from another I don't know
00:17:11 they were from another I don't know where and I know one of the fire offices during this inquiry hinted about he was one of the officers there but I don't know what station was from it and um yeah just didn't know where if the fire
00:17:24 yeah just didn't know where if the fire officers wanted to know information straight away of where the alarm was going off
00:17:28 going off I just remember them sending somebody up the stairs so they probably have to go to every floor will you've heard refer to the old girl I was at a general all building alarm or was the alarm limited to the floor or flat where the fire was
00:17:41 to the floor or flat where the fire was I'm not too sure because I don t remember the alarm less he going off so he was looking for the alarm but I don't remember being downstairs and the alarm actually going off like that could hear
00:17:54 actually going off like that could hear okay
00:18:00 and this is just a few months you know before the fire right and the new panel I think you were saying was located when they moved it to the second floor now
00:18:12 they moved it to the second floor now it's just what general refurbishment so they did the paint reham and then I remember them moving it to this the second floor before they built a flat there remember it it being there one day
00:18:24 there remember it it being there one day and then of course I had to build a new flat they built nine new flats on the first three levels and then they had to take it away so I don't know where did
00:18:36 take it away so I don't know where did it end up well I just figures that little box that was next to this second door as you go into the into the tower right but it was it was a complete different system the old boxes are was a
00:18:49 different system the old boxes are was a massive box with lots of lights and everything and but this was just a little red box with no indication of of anything I didn't know what it's for really when you say a little red box do
00:19:01 really when you say a little red box do you mean that do you mean a box on the wall neck to the right of the door leading into the community room yes there's there was a community room with big yeah big plaque saying community
00:19:15 big yeah big plaque saying community room right and just right of that there was a little red box I did how will it all look it and but I couldn't make it out myself no okay um can I then just go back to
00:19:26 no okay um can I then just go back to the question of fire safety advice do you remember receiving a newsletter from the TMO and ridin during the
00:19:37 from the TMO and ridin during the refurbishment which contained advice about fire safety you see if I can let me see if I can drug your recollection and can the witness please be shown a RT quadruple
00:19:50 witness please be shown a RT quadruple zero two six zero six
00:20:15 that's a arty quadruple zero two six zero six
00:20:33 well maybe we've got them we may not have funds which I'm somewhat alright well we'll come back to that after the break it could be taken as it stands can I ask you there to turn to page 18 and look at the top of that page
00:20:49 and look at the top of that page subparagraph 16 where you discuss the question of doors and you say there we had to close the front door it was not self closing it was a good front door
00:21:01 self closing it was a good front door did you ever change the door after you'd moved in no was the door ever self closing did the TMO or RB Casey
00:21:15 closing did the TMO or RB Casey ever tell you that your front door had to be self closing I see their mail may have had a discussion I think that was
00:21:26 have had a discussion I think that was when they when I went and asked about the doors because they didn't actually give us they did the first of all the doors before we fought a major refurbishment and and I went down to the
00:21:39 refurbishment and and I went down to the office and said excuse me you haven't you know come to us and give us a door so but there may have been a discussion
00:21:50 so but there may have been a discussion that when I asked him why I'm not wise I wasn't getting the door they said your lease hold on you have to buy your own door and it may have been the discussion
00:22:01 door and it may have been the discussion about maybe the five regulations and then our door was not the right the right door but our doors were much more slowly than Stern than the doors that
00:22:12 slowly than Stern than the doors that they were replaced with so there may have been it there were I think there may be in the discussion I'm not too sure about them telling me it has to be a self closing door right yeah do you
00:22:23 a self closing door right yeah do you remember how the discussion was with I
00:22:28 know who was in charge then I don't know it is far more painful Siobhan and I'm not I'm not too sure any
00:22:41 and I'm not I'm not too sure any discussions was weird there's actually horn rumble so yeah we had many rumbles yeah yeah
00:22:56 now they would they wanted to charge myself my wife and I a thousand pounds they said we can have a door but we charged a thousand pounds so I just
00:23:08 charged a thousand pounds so I just declined now you also say in the next paragraph that your old front door was a fire door as three lines up from the
00:23:20 fire door as three lines up from the bottom yeah it's a paragraph how did you how did you know it was a fire door because it was a sturdy heavy free hinged door right so it was your assumption it was a fire door did you
00:23:32 assumption it was a fire door did you see any documents saying it's a fire door no no I didn't see no documents at all now in subparagraph 19 a little bit lower down the page middle of the page
00:23:43 lower down the page middle of the page in fact you say the dog did not have a draft seal on it already but I had put on a little strip to zine it myself but where did you put this trip just some on the base on the base yeah so why did you
00:23:54 the base on the base yeah so why did you need to do that I see that was that was the long time ago just to make any saw
00:24:06 the long time ago just to make any saw that any air coming through the base well that I saw that came off when I put wooden flooring on in the corridor right then having done that did the door have
00:24:19 then having done that did the door have any gaps around it no no gaps no drafts coming in no drops coming in I even even remember there's a draft coming in where I put the strip sticking with page 18
00:24:35 I put the strip sticking with page 18 you say at paragraph 59 as the bottom sorry at paragraph 5921 at the bottom
00:24:46 sorry at paragraph 5921 at the bottom extractor fans and you discuss the extractor fan in the bathroom and and the one in the kitchen which came at the time of the refurbishment yeah did you ever have any trouble with the extractor
00:24:58 ever have any trouble with the extractor fan the one in the bathroom no trouble there was no kind of extraction it was just on the ceiling and I just pulled out the old one pop a new one and it never really sucked in
00:25:12 a new one and it never really sucked in any in the in the air or anything the one in the kitchen a lot of a lot of problems first of all they'd they ever ate yeah
00:25:21 ate yeah they they came they put the extractor fan or all the electrics because it wasn't automatic you had to press a little button and and but it just made
00:25:35 little button and and but it just made so much noise there was I think nearly everybody had the problem of when the wind came up it just it was this crazy noise and they had to come and make a
00:25:46 noise and they had to come and make a solution to a widget or something in to stop the the the fan making that noise and it was very loud is very nice going
00:26:01 and it was very loud is very nice going over the page to page 19 at subparagraph 22 you deal with the question of smell and noise and five lines up from the
00:26:14 and noise and five lines up from the bottom of that paragraph you say it was cold after the refurbishment even though we were told that the flats would be much warmer I had to buy slippers for the first time the flats were very hot before the refurbishment however once
00:26:26 before the refurbishment however once the new radiator system was installed and they took down the floor heating away it was very different and cold do you could you identify a source for the
00:26:38 you could you identify a source for the cold well it was in two parts the around the windows it was it was colder but also before we used to have underfloor
00:26:51 also before we used to have underfloor heating so you know a lot of the winter that didn't even put the radiators on because you know the heat comes up through the tower and our flats was always very very warm so when they put
00:27:03 always very very warm so when they put new radiators in and new windows and everything the flat was much colder you know and I had to gone buy a pair of slippers but it was it was much colder there was no none of that nice warm heat
00:27:15 there was no none of that nice warm heat always have like in the living room in the kitchen corridor where the hot water pipes used to be they didn't take out the old hot-water pipes just stop filling and water because they don't want to drill into the concrete
00:27:26 the concrete so yeah the flat was was cold just focusing on your the windows in that last answer can you just tell me a
00:27:38 last answer can you just tell me a little bit more about how the windows after the refurbishment were a source of cold in your flat yeah it's just the way they put the windows in there was cheap UV you cheap plastic and and it's they
00:27:55 UV you cheap plastic and and it's they just did everything in a hurry and just around the window it's just it just felt much much cooler the old windows weren't that great they were like single pane and they still have little tiny vents and I said
00:28:07 still have little tiny vents and I said put like but paper in there during the winter to stop it the wind coming through but I thought that this new double glazing will be better but it wasn't wasn't gonna see better well just
00:28:19 wasn't wasn't gonna see better well just focusing a bit more on that at the bottom of page 19 in paragraph 25 on that page subparagraph 25 you say windows I remember that there was a small draft that would come through the
00:28:30 small draft that would come through the windows before the refurbishment the old windows had a defense and the wind would whistle through the new windows had better seals but I remember the keys would always fall out of a lock barrel which was an issue and he'd go on to
00:28:42 which was an issue and he'd go on to discuss the plastic after the refurbishment was there any brizel air that you felt coming through all around the windows
00:28:53 coming through all around the windows not necessary breeze but it was just it was just cooler he was just you know the the touch the plastic and it will be if we call her and I have to tell that I
00:29:04 we call her and I have to tell that I was thinking in my mind that these are brand new windows and there must be the cheapest ones because you know we had kind of the barrel where the locks they
00:29:15 kind of the barrel where the locks they that came out I've had to go down ask the people to come widen to come and fix the bowels of the window and I was thinking the old windows lasted like 40 years or more and then these windows you
00:29:28 years or more and then these windows you know five minutes the barrels already fallen out and and that the how cheap I mean the it looked it looked okay look the looked but it was just cheap plastic and I knew
00:29:39 but it was just cheap plastic and I knew that the day one of my friends had a cigarette and dropped him a bit of ash from a cigarette and it left a brown mark so that kind of self or one's her alarm bells whilst thinking this is this is nice it's not gonna last
00:29:51 is nice it's not gonna last yeah but my focus of my question is really whether you could feel air coming in not Leslie brains of the windows I couldn't actually feel any kind of breezes coming through on my windows
00:30:04 breezes coming through on my windows okay can I then turn to the events of the night of 13th and 14th of June 2017
00:30:18 the night of 13th and 14th of June 2017 now just in general terms on that night I think it was just you and pili in the flat um yes pret and my dog and the dog and I think you say on page two of your statement of paragraph nine we don't
00:30:30 statement of paragraph nine we don't need to go to it that you'd fallen asleep on the sofa in your living room watching a film yes yes it was pili asleep as well yeah pity was on a steep on a sofa and I was actually just
00:30:42 on a sofa and I was actually just resting against the sofa on the floor right and then at page three of your statement paragraph eleven if you could just be shown that you say I was woken
00:30:54 just be shown that you say I was woken by a loud banging at my door it was just bang bang bang yeah and you go on to say
00:31:05 bang bang bang yeah and you go on to say later indeed within a very short time as to which see below I assumed that it was a neighbor who banged on my door trying to make sure I was awaking you about the fire was that your assumption at the time when you were woken up by the banging but a banging had to go
00:31:18 banging but a banging had to go investigate what right well the banging was
00:31:23 and at that point when you woke up you
00:31:32 could you smell anything particular okay now I mean there was a yeah you know because I got up quickly you know just jump up god I don't know
00:31:44 you know just jump up god I don't know whether there was no smell of burning or anything like you know calm him a nap and he went straight to your front door did you yes and you opened it and the
00:31:57 did you yes and you opened it and the Helen get mascot was there was she I'm sorry
00:32:00 sorry who was there nobody was there nobody was there nobody was there it was also spur fronted by a war of accurate black smoke not a firefighter at any rate no
00:32:14 smoke not a firefighter at any rate no now a page 3 of your statement paragraph 10 you say I cannot recall what time I was woken and first became aware of the fire I say you don't recall it knew your
00:32:27 fire I say you don't recall it knew your watch I've recently become aware the first of my two 999 calls was at about 1:50 6:00 a.m. and we'll come to that and then you piece it together and you say I don't think less than 25 minutes
00:32:38 say I don't think less than 25 minutes or more than 35 minutes passed by so I think I was working between 120 a.m. but not later than about 1:30 a.m. yeah now why do you think that time range is 25
00:32:51 why do you think that time range is 25 to 35 minutes I'm just I'm not too sure I did I didn't look at my watch at any time since I woke up even though I had my watch on I didn't I didn't look at I
00:33:04 my watch on I didn't I didn't look at I guess I didn't know exactly what the time was you know I was just guessing that that was the range of times that was you know until I found out what time
00:33:18 was you know until I found out what time life call was to the fire brigade so you have no timelines of anything you asked me this minute at that minute I don't know anything okay
00:33:29 know anything okay now you you say you went to the front door and there was nobody there
00:33:36 then you opened it yes I did and you noticed a burning smell at that stage ah well I was I was in shock when I opened the door because I couldn't see anything I have a there's a
00:33:48 couldn't see anything I have a there's a wall just a meat or meat in a harbor in front of so easily a white wall which like it's the encasing of the lift and I couldn't even see that it was just total
00:33:59 couldn't even see that it was just total darkness and the the smokiest came rushing into the flat before you open the front door and as you tell us I think in paragraph 12 you'd noticed a
00:34:11 think in paragraph 12 you'd noticed a burning smells you arrived in the corridor of your flat yeah it smelt well you say it was not more serious than the smell of burning toast what did it actually smell like at that stage just
00:34:26 actually smell like at that stage just um it was burning I mean I can actually say that I was a chemical or was plastic or it's just a burn smell you knew that if something was burning but I couldn't
00:34:37 if something was burning but I couldn't actually you know tell you exactly what well it smelled like and you say in the next paragraph you were met when you open the door by what I can only
00:34:48 open the door by what I can only describe as a thick black wall of smoke it was in the corridor and the smoke immediately started to come in from the corridor inside the entrance way of my flat yeah this mate would say thick I
00:35:00 flat yeah this mate would say thick I couldn't see the wall opposite my front door which is only about a metre away
00:35:08 did you hear anything in the lobby in the lobby not not at that time I remember the noise afters when we went
00:35:21 remember the noise afters when we went out into the corridor and that without such a whining noise it wasn't like the like a fire alarm you'd figure the fire would would wake everybody up and did that traditional
00:35:33 everybody up and did that traditional sound of dinging and anything no it wasn't like that it was more of a wailing whining noise but that was afterwards I remember that I don't remember any noise in particular but for
00:35:49 remember any noise in particular but for the first time so the wailing whining noise put her interested in you didn't hear at this stage but you did hear later did you hear it when you eventually evacuated I heard that was yeah I didn't register
00:36:02 heard that was yeah I didn't register initially the first time right did you call out into the lobby yeah hello because someone just banged on my
00:36:13 hello because someone just banged on my door so yes hello I think their response no response no that's difficult but did you get any kind of impression about
00:36:24 you get any kind of impression about where the smoke was coming from shellshock but kind of fully maybe registered in my mind that it might been next door or something because the smoke
00:36:35 next door or something because the smoke was there yeah and I had no initial reasoning to why I smoke will come from any other part of the building did you
00:36:46 any other part of the building did you were you able to smell the smoke yeah I suppose it has it has a smell what was that what was the smell just saw burning you know it was there was smoke so I
00:36:59 you know it was there was smoke so I couldn't say is a plastic or as an organic smell or yeah just it that didn't necessarily my nostrils so you know what it was it just knew that
00:37:10 know what it was it just knew that something was burning and it's in a smoke so your senses are just telling you that now I didn't kind of analyze what the sit-down analyzer this
00:37:21 analyze what the sit-down analyzer this smells like this or smells like that hmm okay I've made no general impression on you about what it might be that it was smoked no not not initially had those
00:37:32 smoked no not not initially had those bit more confused why was there rather than what was burning in that short time did you notice any anything about the temperature in the lobby not not honestly then no now at
00:37:48 not not honestly then no now at paragraph 14 at the bottom of page three of your statement you say I noticed no kind of light in my cockpit in the corridor or any sound of an alarm all I
00:37:59 corridor or any sound of an alarm all I remember hearing was a faint whirring noise almost a background noise now in your statement you said you were you can hear a whirring noise yeah looking back
00:38:10 hear a whirring noise yeah looking back on it now is that right I guess so yeah okay say so the noise some some sort of whirring noise did register with you at the time at least in your statement well
00:38:22 the time at least in your statement well I did my statement here so if I remember but but to truly register my in my in my brain I just remember when when we came out into the smoke that was much more
00:38:33 out into the smoke that was much more evidence in my recollection yet going back to the first sentence of that paragraph you say I noticed no kind of light in the corridor with the lights in
00:38:46 light in the corridor with the lights in the corridor normally be on in the middle of the night yeah absolutely very bright
00:38:52 bright there's also be emergency lighting there was the mostly lighting next to my next to my dear yes and they they move they're mostly lighted and put one extra
00:39:03 they're mostly lighted and put one extra door and they would have been bright and light but that I just saw nothing it was just intense black smoke like you said
00:39:15 just intense black smoke like you said tile and fire
00:39:19 at page four if you just go over the page and you say at the top of that page at paragraph 15 I do not believe it that I open the door for more than a
00:39:30 that I open the door for more than a couple of seconds and after I slammed the door shut I noticed there was a haze of smoke left in the entranceway of the flat and some of it had got into the corridor leading to the living room it
00:39:41 corridor leading to the living room it was quite a thin haze of smoke and then you go on to describe the density of this make by reference to the pictures that we provided the enquiry I provided to you did the smoke continue to come in
00:39:56 to you did the smoke continue to come in to the flat after you closed the door
00:40:01 and again did you get a certificate and a chance of smelling the smoke at that stage um yeah because even SMED it is there was you know it was now like hovering on the ceiling so you had a
00:40:14 hovering on the ceiling so you had a inkling that though there was no smoke and in that moment when you saw that there was smoke which should come into your flat from the lobby outside did you
00:40:25 your flat from the lobby outside did you have any thoughts about what you should do next not not necessary that that time like
00:40:38 I just fooled impossible something's happened and then I made the decision to you know wake my wife up to tell her and
00:40:52 you know wake my wife up to tell her and you didn't attempt to leave the flat at that stage um no no and can you just tell us why you didn't think at that
00:41:03 tell us why you didn't think at that stage I must leave because we must leave yeah just full that arm you know over all the years you know before the
00:41:15 all the years you know before the refurbishment that the the flash will be okay a compartment and we'll be safe and we'll have fire doors and you know they're meant to be for 60 minutes and
00:41:26 they're meant to be for 60 minutes and the fire brigade will come and deal with the initial fire that was my thought was on my floor at the beginning I need after several phone calls from friends
00:41:37 after several phone calls from friends from a friend that I realized it was something different I just thought we'll be safe in our in our flat because it's solid concrete
00:41:50 and then you go on to explain what measures you you took to protect yourselves paragraphs nineteen onwards
00:42:03 during that period going back and waking up hilly and getting towels there's any more smoke coming in not that I remember
00:42:14 more smoke coming in not that I remember no but I did get some towels I did that's nice straight away before I actually went and what my wife I just went to the bathroom put a the bath on just threw some towels in there and then
00:42:26 just threw some towels in there and then put one across the bottom of the of the main door and when you put one of them across the bottom of the main door was there any smoke beginning to come in at
00:42:38 there any smoke beginning to come in at that stage not that I noticed no just a question about the running the bath did you notice any change in the water pressure that you paragraph 24 of your
00:42:56 pressure that you paragraph 24 of your statement on page 5 when we explained the process you you you say wakin up pili and took her back to the living room and you say this process was not
00:43:07 room and you say this process was not hurried as I knew that we would have to wait some time for rescue can I just ask you why did you think that um because I
00:43:20 you why did you think that um because I started getting phone calls from my own for my friend Simon and he was this asked me to leave the flat but on consideration I thought it was too
00:43:32 consideration I thought it was too dangerous to to go into the into the main lobby with my wife because she was very frail
00:43:41 and you hadn't called 999 by that point no what made you believe that the lfb would be coming to your flat to rescue you and pinnacles I didn't in the
00:43:53 you and pinnacles I didn't in the beginning I didn't know the extent of what was actually happening to us or to everybody so I just thought if there's a someone will come up before officers a deal with where with the smoke walls or the fire and they'll knock on our door
00:44:06 the fire and they'll knock on our door and say are you okay that was my did you form any impression your in mind at that time as to how long that might take yeah I thought that take
00:44:23 that might take yeah I thought that take a short time you know usually the the local fire brigade are very close close by and they're in if the files on my floor then I would get a knock saying
00:44:35 floor then I would get a knock saying are you okay we've sorry we've dealt with with the fire the paragraph 24
00:44:46 with with the fire the paragraph 24 continuing with it you go on to say it was obvious that I could not leave on my own with pilly because she was simply too frail for me to be able to manage getting her down and out of the town on my own then you say I was aware we would
00:45:00 my own then you say I was aware we would not be able to use the lifts in the tower and I just could not be confident about getting her out safely on my own via the stairs particularly due to the thickness of the smoke and her frailty I just want to ask you about the thickness
00:45:12 just want to ask you about the thickness of the smoke in that part of your sentence there what did you know at that time about the smoke conditions in the stairs I did not anything say the smoke
00:45:26 stairs I did not anything say the smoke thickness of the smoke because that the things of this making the lobby in the lobby the live Nazi yeah I may have registered in the back of my mind that we can get to the stairwell that will be okay but it was just so
00:45:39 that will be okay but it was just so thick you know who it'll panic my wife no I understand now you referred a minute ago to contacts from telephone calls from your friend
00:45:51 friend that Simon jolly Simon jolly yes and he lived nearby I think in Barrington walk now you had a number of calls with him I think before you called 999 yes I did
00:46:02 think before you called 999 yes I did yes during those calls did Simon jolly pass any advice on to you initially said the there's a fire in a tower and then
00:46:13 the there's a fire in a tower and then the the calls got more and more you know distressed and he was like screaming at me like you need to leave now why you need like you need to leave get out as I
00:46:27 need like you need to leave get out as I said no you know I don't think I can I don't think but he was just panicking he was really in a distraught and these calls all proceeded to there your first
00:46:38 calls all proceeded to there your first 999 call which we have at 156 yes yes he may have even said that he's phone the fire brigade and have I phoned the fire
00:46:49 fire brigade and have I phoned the fire brigade
00:46:49 brigade right now he said as you've told us you need to leave now yeah get out we know that you didn't act
00:47:03 yeah get out we know that you didn't act on that advice at least straight away why is that because I thought that you know some all the compromise I didn't want to put my wife at risk if I was
00:47:14 want to put my wife at risk if I was there by myself I put him just left but my wife was very frail very delicate and and I didn't want to put her life at risk I drove it into the into the smoke
00:47:27 risk I drove it into the into the smoke did
00:47:31 let's just see paragraph 29 on page six you say at the start of that paragraph
00:47:42 you say at the start of that paragraph there may have been a third call from him before I called the fire brigade myself but I think it was after he told me that he had called the fire brigade on my behalf he said that he had told
00:47:53 on my behalf he said that he had told them what flat pilly and I were in by this point he was sounding quite panicked did he pass on any advice that
00:48:06 panicked did he pass on any advice that he had got from the fire brigade to you during that call do you remember what I remember just asked me to leave now please do no did he tell you do you remember whether he told you that
00:48:18 do you remember whether he told you that the fire brigade with told him to tell you to stay put the first call that you make is at Oh 150 620 and the transcript
00:48:34 make is at Oh 150 620 and the transcript reference for that is lfb three four four if we can just have that please up on the screen you can see it's the birth
00:48:47 on the screen you can see it's the birth room that from the first page of this transcript at the time of the call
00:48:57 you're quite right you're quite right to mine this reference it's
00:49:06 I have it it's three three Forks
00:49:19 and you can see from the top strap line of blue letters that in the group of numbers second from the right it says oh
00:49:31 numbers second from the right it says oh one five six to zero that's Oh 150 620 yes once is the time of the call a paragraph 30 of your statement we don't need to go to it you say you were you made this call when you were standing in
00:49:42 made this call when you were standing in your kitchen yes right yes in the kitchen and that faces West yes it does and we can see that if we need to from the layout of your flat but it faces West my question is could you see
00:49:54 West my question is could you see anything out of your window at the time you made this call yeah put he'd already been to the window I didn't look at the kitchen window because there's a tie
00:50:06 kitchen window because there's a tie it's a tight space and we had a fridge in that area but the the next window long in the living room I looked at the window there now if you look at the
00:50:18 window there now if you look at the first page of the trial I looked at several windows though okay and did you see anything else out of those windows
00:50:30 see anything else out of those windows yeah so people downstairs I saw blue flashing lights see people shouting well let's see here what they will they'll
00:50:42 let's see here what they will they'll see and I'll see people congregate in down the other station when I was looking out that way and when I went and looked on the other window I'm seeing traffic congregating on the a40 elevated
00:50:56 traffic congregating on the a40 elevated section there and then yeah did you see any signs of fire or smoke afterwards yes so when I looked further out the window
00:51:06 window nowit's time afterwards to my right when I was looking north and also I could see the reflection against the school against the that a big glass atrium in a
00:51:18 against the that a big glass atrium in a school sort of reflection of the fire was actually against that so you could actually see I'm not perfect but you know the glow and also I could see
00:51:30 know the glow and also I could see and our stage the flames or the glow coming towards my part of the building can I can I just ask you to get back to
00:51:42 can I can I just ask you to get back to your layout of your flat this one follows something up if I can which is I WS 63
00:51:59 the kitchen is to the bottom right hand corner of this um yes that's correct this diagram so so we've got the West face of the building at the bottom and
00:52:10 face of the building at the bottom and the north to the left as its presented on the screen in front of us yes between the kitchen in the living room that there appears to be a wall to the right of the round table
00:52:21 of the round table yes is that a wall or a set of sliding sliding doors on the night of the fire was that door open or closed yeah we always had it opened never tend to close them so when you were making your call
00:52:34 them so when you were making your call in the kitchen you could see out of the kitchen window to the west could you also see out of the living room windows to the north if I looked yeah I was quite near with I was probably standing
00:52:45 quite near with I was probably standing where did the washing machine was so but if I move this step or two you have to see out to the west and probably out to the north but you probably won't have to see anything unless you look go go
00:52:59 see anything unless you look go go towards the window and look down because we were we were very high up focusing back on the question I asked you earlier on when you looked out of the kitchen window could you see any signs of smoke
00:53:10 window could you see any signs of smoke or fire oh oh not a man window no you couldn't yeah I didn't actually have kids who I went to the next window I see and and looked so the next one being the one opposite the dining room table yes
00:53:22 one opposite the dining room table yes next to it now going to the call you say on page 2 if we can just go back to the transcript
00:53:44 you say oh hi good evening this is the caller I think you know about it already we're in Grenville tower the whole towers on fire and we're on the 19th floor just pausing there when you've
00:53:55 floor just pausing there when you've said the whole towers on fire how did you know that well I didn't Nestle know the whole towels on fire is the what Simon was so I'm just repeating what my
00:54:06 Simon was so I'm just repeating what my friend told me said the whole towers in fire I mean I didn't actually know the severity of the what was actually happening yes I see so I'll just repeat in what what he told me yeah and then
00:54:20 in what what he told me yeah and then you go on to say after the operator says you're on the 19th floor are you yeah we can't go outside because there's too much smoke and everything too much smoke don't know don't go outside what flat are you in please 165 and then you go on
00:54:36 are you in please 165 and then you go on to say towards the bottom of the page the fire alarms gone off and the fire brigade are on site and everything else but I just wanted to yeah no that's all
00:54:47 but I just wanted to yeah no that's all right what I'll do I'll let them know where you are they'll be coming door-to-door to make sure everyone's safe the fire is actually on the fourth floor okay so okay now number of
00:54:59 floor okay so okay now number of questions just about that passage which I've just read to you first of all when you refer to a fire alarm what are you referring to um default the the smoke alarm in my flap smoke alarm on your flat how long
00:55:11 flap smoke alarm on your flat how long before this call did the smoke alarm go off Oh straight away when I opened the front door I just ripped the battery out right now when you go back to page 2 if
00:55:23 right now when you go back to page 2 if you just go back to page 2 of the transcript towards the bottom of the page after the reference to the fire alarm you say but I just wanted to know it's difficult to try and piece this
00:55:36 it's difficult to try and piece this together but do you have any idea or recollection of what you were trying to tell the operator I just wanted to make sure that they know that we're here and they knew that there was a fire and you
00:55:49 they knew that there was a fire and you know and I think about it well what I saw out the window I'm sure hundreds of people must have phone so I know that they knew that we were I just wanted to say that we are we're
00:56:01 just wanted to say that we are we're still here we're we're waiting or we you know and then at page 3 of the transcript you you say just before
00:56:12 transcript you you say just before halfway down yeah there's it's there's it's only it's only smoke because I open the front door and so smoke came in I've closed the front door it's just in the corridor does that mean that at that point there
00:56:25 does that mean that at that point there was no more smoke coming into your flat there was no more smoke coming to my flight and she then goes on to advise you to put towels and blankets around the door only the window is closed you
00:56:37 the door only the window is closed you can see on the rest of that page I think you'd already taken those steps by that stage yes I did yes I had like fire safety training that work yes and then she says bleep three quarters of
00:56:52 then she says bleep three quarters of the way down the page put that's it put them all around the door leave the windows closed because I know there's a lot of smoke outside as well and they'll make their way up to you okay if anything changes give us a call back okay but yes stay where you are
00:57:04 okay but yes stay where you are all right then thank you thank you very much bye-bye did you feel reassured by the advice that the operator had given you to stay in your flat yes I mean yeah
00:57:18 you to stay in your flat yes I mean yeah in my mind I was still thinking that and I was gonna get a knock on the doors I know the fire has gone out and everything I know my friends line was showered down the phone I still
00:57:30 showered down the phone I still registered that it's safer to be in my in my flat hmm that's why - if I was by myself I will you know just left and gone attempted to
00:57:42 you know just left and gone attempted to go down a stairwell now we know from the call that you weren't asked by the operator about the age of your age or
00:57:53 operator about the age of your age or your Pili's age or whether you or pili had any mobility issues didn't we know that they didn't ask that question is
00:58:04 that they didn't ask that question is there any reason why you didn't volunteer that information to the operator why didn't you say my wife's got mobility difficulties no I didn't
00:58:15 got mobility difficulties no I didn't know at the time I was whatever came to my mind then to make sure that they knew that we were there that was my main hunch that you know that we're here you
00:58:27 hunch that you know that we're here you know I didn't think about ask about my wife was way frail and can't walk or hardly walk point free yeah it wasn't I
00:58:40 hardly walk point free yeah it wasn't I just don't know why I just said what I did sent okay mr. chairman we'd be going for exactly an hour mr. Berg is a
00:58:52 for exactly an hour mr. Berg is a convenient to you yeah absolutely well mr. Burton I have a short break please they need to talk to anyone about your evidence we'll start again at em
00:59:03 your evidence we'll start again at em pastor thank you very much
00:59:17 like 10%
01:08:42 you
01:10:06 you
01:10:35 mr. chat if could you ask mr. bird him to come back please thank you
01:11:01 Brett Burton absolutely carry on mr. Burton thank you for coming back to us I want to show you a document that I was going to show you before does the
01:11:13 going to show you before does the newsletter the newsletter absolutely no before I do I should just explain to you and everybody else of this document is in the public domain it's available on the internet if one wants to find it but it also has a relativity reference AR T
01:11:25 it also has a relativity reference AR T quadruple zero two six zero six we can just have that up now that's the first page of it we can see that it's a TMO Ryden Grenfell tire regeneration
01:11:37 Ryden Grenfell tire regeneration newsletter July 2014 what's been happening and various things and then over the page if you go please to page two you can see at the very bottom of
01:11:49 two you can see at the very bottom of the page we can just have that blown up please emergency fire arrangements our long-standing statehood policy stays in force until you are told otherwise
01:12:00 force until you are told otherwise this means that unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat you should stay inside your flat this is because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous fire safety standards also the new front
01:12:11 safety standards also the new front doors for each flat could withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive my question is do you remember ever seeing this newsletter with this
01:12:22 ever seeing this newsletter with this advice in it we have many newsletters over the refurbishment so they did keep us up today we have things but I mean I can't Pacific Lee say I saw that actual one
01:12:34 Pacific Lee say I saw that actual one and every but I did tend to read read through them to get an update yes right whether it was this one or another one do you remember seeing this advice or
01:12:46 do you remember seeing this advice or advice like oh I mean iconic is it cool that paragraph you know it's there so I may have read it I can't recall mean
01:13:00 may have read it I can't recall mean we've got quite a few of these these updates over the course of two years or so
01:13:06 so do you remember when you got these updates whether this fire safety advice was repeated there was a regular feature of these newsletters no no I know I was
01:13:19 of these newsletters no no I know I was talking about the surroundings or what was going to happen you know the wave some timelines but that that part I don't remember come and then to get back
01:13:32 don't remember come and then to get back to where we were just before the break yes your 999 called your first one which we've had at 3:34 after this 999 call
01:13:43 we've had at 3:34 after this 999 call finished where were you in the flat were you still in the kitchen I'm still in the kitchen yes and where was pili on the sofa now at paragraph 33 of your
01:13:54 the sofa now at paragraph 33 of your statement if you could just please turn to that you'll find on page 8 you say all the windows in the flat were closed I decided to move us into the bathroom
01:14:07 I decided to move us into the bathroom in the flat I think between the two 999 calls though it's possible that I went back to the kitchen to make a second 999 call so as not to panic pili why did you move to the bathroom I figured the
01:14:22 move to the bathroom I figured the desperation of Simon on the phone so I thought if anything was going to happen we'll wait in the in the bathroom so the fire did come to the bedrooms or the
01:14:34 fire did come to the bedrooms or the living room I for the safest place would be in the in the bathroom so I just + in the bathrooms that peeling on the side of the of the valve right and why the
01:14:48 of the of the valve right and why the bathroom particularly because the bathroom there was access to water maybe and also it was near the front door if we had to leave that be the place to go for right and
01:15:04 place to go for right and now a paragraph 34 you say I remember exiting the bedroom closing the door behind me and going to get pili and
01:15:15 behind me and going to get pili and moving her into the bathroom just pausing there you say you exited the bedroom
01:15:22 bedroom why did you again at what point did you go into the bedroom I went to the bedroom when I took my wife because it all happened quite slowly and calmly it wasn't a panic but I think so I decided
01:15:35 wasn't a panic but I think so I decided that I thought if we have to go my wife leave we need to get dressed so I quickly weddings and got dressed jeans and you know to Geoffrey because it was a very warm still night and then I
01:15:49 a very warm still night and then I slowly got my wife up took her to the bedroom you know put you know trousers salt shoes top cardigan just got her dressed on the bed and and then before
01:16:04 dressed on the bed and and then before let me you know I think I may be taking it back to the living room then we were just very calm and relaxed and then I thought go back to the bedroom because I
01:16:17 thought go back to the bedroom because I might need some ID so I went and picked up my or our passports and just put them in my back pocket and then they'd have
01:16:29 in my back pocket and then they'd have to make some phone calls from Simon I decided maybe it's time to now just picking up on the phone calls from Simon
01:16:40 picking up on the phone calls from Simon at paragraph 34 of your statement you go on to say during this time I got a further call from Simon who was telling me to go into the kitchen which is more on the west side of the tower he thought
01:16:51 on the west side of the tower he thought it was probably safest if we were in there did he explain why he thought it was safest probably and I feel actually maybe more phone calls might you know
01:17:04 maybe more phone calls might you know move from the bedroom go to the living room and go to the living room to the kitchen and then I decided that maybe we were going to leave to go to the to the bathroom
01:17:15 leave to go to the to the bathroom he was probably seen the the wall of fire coming across and he Polly you said and I've you're in your bedroom that's going to be the first on that Northside
01:17:27 going to be the first on that Northside to to come in contact with the fire did he say that no I'm just right that's what I'm speculating about didn't
01:17:39 what I'm speculating about didn't actually say okay you know he's just saying you know get out of the murder more you know go to the kitchen so as I spectating that if I'm gonna be somewhere in the flat it's gonna be
01:17:50 somewhere in the flat it's gonna be further so point the furthest point away from whatever the fire was coming from and it was coming from that that another east los point did you move to the
01:18:02 east los point did you move to the kitchen as per his advice um yeah I've made the phone calls in the kitchen but even then I still wasn't really over panel anything but I just for then we
01:18:13 panel anything but I just for then we just moved to the bathroom best we've got a water supply there there's you know I didn't know what was gonna be in zooming what was gonna happen even though he was you know saying like get
01:18:25 though he was you know saying like get out or move right now you say that you moved from the bedroom and went to the living room for the living room to the kitchen where was pili during this oh yeah that's when I've kind of moved her like around with me right during
01:18:39 her like around with me right during that period of as it were touring the flat before you ended up in the bathroom did you did you look out of the windows of the flat oh yes I probably looked out several times and the window looked out the bedroom window when it looked out to
01:18:51 the bedroom window when it looked out to the the north-facing window near the corner looked out the is more kind of you know to see what was going on there was a lot of now there's lots of blue
01:19:03 was a lot of now there's lots of blue lights click inform every corner you can you can think of like maybe on the Bramley road near the near the tube station and and I we can't see the
01:19:18 station and and I we can't see the like the the south east corner so I don't know what was done on that side of the building but but full you know maybe I'll seal Chester Road was another road there so it's more more fascination
01:19:31 there so it's more more fascination that's not but I think as inquisitive about the things and also the aid for T was I think traffic was now stopping on the a forty to look at the the buildings
01:19:46 the a forty to look at the the buildings during that period of going around the flat did you notice when he looked out of the windows and he signs a smoke or fire no I said except when I looked so I do apologize once I looked out the the
01:20:00 do apologize once I looked out the the north-facing window there not to see the the reflection and the fire and the you know that wall of glow coming along you know because asking if there was a
01:20:13 you know because asking if there was a bit more easier where we had the the single concrete column you could stick your head out before T C said Mary's Hospital in the distance and you know the post office tower we looked at but
01:20:24 the post office tower we looked at but now with the new kind of cladding squared off it was a little bit more difficult but I could see that glow coming up coming across right could you see the actual glow itself or was it reflected in the walls of you must
01:20:35 reflected in the walls of you must received Academy paper I could actually see the glow itself now it was coming in you know but as I said maybe my statement I'm not too sure but I never saw the the fire entering my flatmate
01:20:48 saw the the fire entering my flatmate now moving then to your second 999 call and that is lfp three four four you made that call at 13 and three
01:21:01 you made that call at 13 and three seconds we have that on the screen you can see it there mr. Burton if you look at the transcript for that on the first page this second group of numbers from
01:21:12 page this second group of numbers from the right o to one 303 to thirteen and three seconds
01:21:26 and before we look at the detail of the call do you remember where you were when you made this call again in the kitchen it back to the kitchen so they clearly couldn't hear you
01:21:37 couldn't hear you um yeah didn't want to alarm her okay and what motivated this cool probably from what I'm seeing that the window and and Simon's call I just wanted to be
01:21:50 and Simon's call I just wanted to be reassured a little bit that they were coming for us that they know that we were there
01:22:07 now on page two you start the call by saying oh hi this is something from 165 Granville tower 165 year Grenville tower
01:22:20 Granville tower 165 year Grenville tower our tower block is on fire yeah and then you say and were trapped in the 19th floor but nobody's coming and the flames next door's getting very close to our windows now and the smokes in the houses
01:22:32 windows now and the smokes in the houses just on that little passage why did you say nobody's coming because I've still thought they would have come to our flat
01:22:45 thought they would have come to our flat you know there was lots of fire engines around and I was just kind of I mean I can't speak on behalf of the fire brigade
01:22:54 brigade I just thought there's so many fire says you'd do a floor-by-floor search too to come and they'd know that we were there Simon informed them that we were there I
01:23:05 Simon informed them that we were there I told him I thought you know should be here by now as I didn't know the difficulties that they were having and I fought is just a methodical way of doing things like send
01:23:17 methodical way of doing things like send a group of guys to you know floor one for two for three or four you know and there will be a team just coming for us and and just has caught us out that's what you expected is it that's why
01:23:29 what you expected is it that's why that's why I expected yes and what had led you to expect that probably you know fires that have happened in the tower
01:23:41 fires that have happened in the tower before know that this scale you know I said there was a fire opposite us in our neighbor's house at one time and the
01:23:52 neighbor's house at one time and the fire brigade came put the fire out and it was very very you know quickly done so that was my expectation that you know there's a tower block and someone would
01:24:03 there's a tower block and someone would come methodically to go through every single floor and just move us out it wasn't even though I was getting food in my ear from Simon that you need to go now the whole towels on fire leave now please please you know it still kind of
01:24:16 please please you know it still kind of didn't register that what happened I thought you know I'm not unless our house was on fire and and and that moment of fight/flight you know I
01:24:28 moment of fight/flight you know I wouldn't be it'd be difficult I would have left I mean I wouldn't even want to left my wife never but we would have gone in the end if the the fire would have come into our and I will have
01:24:40 would have come into our and I will have to say let's go now well I wasn't taking that chance because you know what it wasn't such a panic I wasn't I wasn't panicked myself enough of course this is
01:24:53 panicked myself enough of course this is your second 999 call yeah senior first 999 call was there anything in the first nine nine nine call that you took away from that call which had led to the expectation that the fire brigade would
01:25:05 expectation that the fire brigade would be with you by now yeah I just thought if they know that we're here that they will come for us
01:25:16 I just full okay they know that we're here so I'll get a knock on the door now just focusing on paragraph or passage we're on just above the middle
01:25:27 passage we're on just above the middle of that page on page two you say and the flames next is getting very close to our windows now yeah it's just just on that where could you see flames so I looked
01:25:39 where could you see flames so I looked out the north side to the north side roll it out so I looked out quite far there and they were coming from the north east of the building so it was just this wall of fire so but even then
01:25:54 just this wall of fire so but even then I still didn't register that it was going to you know be in our flat very shortly
01:26:01 shortly I've looked at the the evidence and I know what time I came out I've looked at the other evidence that has been given to us and it seemed that I came out the
01:26:13 to us and it seemed that I came out the tower maybe 233 or was downstairs but on the other evidence maybe from forensic architects or some other thing our flat was already on fire at 2:30
01:26:25 our flat was already on fire at 2:30 so I didn't have enough time but I didn't know the scale of what was gonna be happening just just teasing something out to the last answer you say you saw a wall of fire was that wall of fire at
01:26:37 wall of fire was that wall of fire at the level of your flat and I'll figures maybe even higher I think it was just a horizontal to my right just as I was on to a wall of fire coming coming across
01:26:49 to a wall of fire coming coming across that may be an angle I'm not too sure I couldn't there was a angle this but it just seemed that it was probably hired there my my flat did you get any sense of how fast it was moving laterally
01:27:01 of how fast it was moving laterally towards you no now you go on to say and the smokes in the houses and I noticed over speaking what did you mean by that
01:27:16 mid Oh smoke in our house when when I open the door a couple of times open door think but yeah it was I didn't see like smoke I mean some of our people
01:27:27 like smoke I mean some of our people stainless saying that they had smoke coming through the windows coming through you know holes and but I didn't kind of registered that it's just a something I said I don't know you say
01:27:41 something I said I don't know you say just moving ahead in the call to pay to page four at the top of that page
01:27:50 that there's smoke in the whole house yeah question is as you see from the second item down is the smoke okay at
01:28:01 second item down is the smoke okay at the moment over and then you say something over speaking smoke in the whole house okay not bad smoke we've got something but you're okay did you have
01:28:15 something but you're okay did you have smoking the whole hat in the whole flat well it was the smoke from the opening and closing the doors that was that that was the old smoke there wasn't an is our smoke coming in from from from the
01:28:29 smoke coming in from from from the window seals or anything else like that and then after time that smoke dissipates into other rooms but then afterwards when I went to put my wife into the bathroom then I closed the
01:28:41 into the bathroom then I closed the bedroom doors the living room door the kitchen door so I just closed all the doors so at the time of this second call is this right that you hadn't you'd only opened the front door into the lobby
01:28:53 opened the front door into the lobby once I may I may have opened it again sorry I just but the enemy smoke that had come into the flat was from the was from the lobby yes okay now at that stage was that
01:29:08 yes okay now at that stage was that smoke having any physical effect on you no not really no what about Billy no no just going back a page slightly there
01:29:23 just going back a page slightly there was topic on the same call but back straight to page three towards the bottom of the page the operator says yeah we are trying to get to you but we've got yeah numerous people trapped
01:29:36 we've got yeah numerous people trapped in the flats so yeah I understand and then the operator says we just want to sort of try and assess how bad it is but do you are you okay
01:29:48 did you when she said we just want to sort of try and assess how bad it is what did you think the fire brigade was up to what was he doing I thought that
01:30:02 up to what was he doing I thought that they were just checking every single floor and they'll get to us at sums at some stage you know the you know I could see now flames coming up the side that
01:30:14 see now flames coming up the side that are building the phone calls from Simon the reflection from the that the school you know I knew that's you know but I was still a little bit confident that
01:30:26 was still a little bit confident that they'll come and knock on the door and just you know and if he could be all right maybe they just put the fire out I just I didn't comprehend the scale of things right and yeah the call then ends
01:30:39 things right and yeah the call then ends on page five any with the top of the page any worse bring us back yeah but we are trying to get to you when the operator told you we are trying to get
01:30:51 operator told you we are trying to get to you did you what did you think they were doing yeah well they were going to come off police it's my wife don't worry look they're coming for us now did you
01:31:03 look they're coming for us now did you get any kind of impression as to whether the lfp were prioritizing other rescues ahead of you by the kind of analytical thing of seeing the wall of fire think
01:31:14 thing of seeing the wall of fire think they you know they must been going to other flats on that right-hand side I didn't I mean I didn't know or see any fire on the the west side on my flats
01:31:27 fire on the the west side on my flats below us or anything else like this so I just thought they were just going on on that side so they'll have to do floor by floor but the fire was there so I was
01:31:38 floor but the fire was there so I was confident that they were coming for us you were confident they would come for you did you have any thoughts at the time about how long that might now take no I just made the thing that they come
01:31:50 no I just made the thing that they come in and reassured my wife that they will on their way now again on that call and I haven't showed it all to you but it is right you weren't asked whether either
01:32:02 right you weren't asked whether either of you or pili had any mobility difficulties no and again you didn't volunteer that information on that call and one question remains the same question I asked you before is there any reason why you didn't tell the operator
01:32:14 reason why you didn't tell the operator that that your wife had mobility difficulties I don't know don't know why I didn't come to mind
01:32:23 now can I and take you back to your witness statement ago please to page nine you say in paragraph 40 on that
01:32:43 nine you say in paragraph 40 on that page when I heard the noise outside our front door I immediately went to the front door and shouted out from the inside and repeatedly struck the door with the palm of my hand I was shouting
01:32:55 with the palm of my hand I was shouting hello and we're here now I know you in paragraph 38 disah's look at 38 you say in the second part of that paragraph it
01:33:06 in the second part of that paragraph it felt like an age before anything happened between the time of that second call and when I heard noises outside in the corridor but I now realize that it cannot have been for more than 10 minutes or so how do you calculate or
01:33:20 minutes or so how do you calculate or estimate the 10 minutes that's not to analyze from the timelines are very sketchy in my head about everything that
01:33:32 sketchy in my head about everything that happens so just kind of estimate and I don't know the exact times I don't know actually how long were you in a flat I don't know what at the time with a bang on the door I just it just seemed that
01:33:45 on the door I just it just seemed that we were doing things calmly get my wife dress in down taking the calls you know it wasn't like a panic or rush and I can't I'm just trying to figure out that
01:33:58 can't I'm just trying to figure out that by the
01:34:00 by the the picture of myself being downstairs and that the time of the call so that's where I've got that kind of right so you
01:34:13 where I've got that kind of right so you know that kind of number yeah so would it be fair to summarize your estimation process or saying well you start with 213 as the time of the second call you know 33 is your exit time yes and I
01:34:24 know 33 is your exit time yes and I think about the time that it takes to come down the stairs I don't even know I don't even know how long that took and so that's the analyzation of of how
01:34:36 and so that's the analyzation of of how working that out yeah okay now it where were you when you heard the bang at that all noise at the door yeah so I was in the just wife was sitting on the bath
01:34:48 the just wife was sitting on the bath when I was just standing about holding her hand and I just heard a little noise or something at the door so I thought oh maybe the fire brigade here so I was just when I'm sort of just opening door
01:34:59 just when I'm sort of just opening door I just started banging on the door what was the noise you heard at the door I don't know maybe somebody talking or voice or something like that
01:35:13 was it easy to hear the noises from the bathroom um no I'm not really video just I don't know what it was that triggered me to I suppose something so I just
01:35:26 me to I suppose something so I just acted do you think you would have heard those noises if you've been somewhere else in the flat like your living room no with the noises at the door directed at you or where they just I just heard a
01:35:37 at you or where they just I just heard a noise and I just started banging right
01:35:44 now you went to the front door you say and shout it out from the from the inside sorry this is my girl 40 just have that back up on the screen you say
01:35:58 have that back up on the screen you say when I heard the noise outside our front door I immediately went to the front door and shouted out from the inside and repeatedly struck the door with the palm of my hand I was shouting hello we're here I think I repeated this several times I believe I heard a response
01:36:09 times I believe I heard a response saying something like they knew I was there but they wanted to check the neighbors I heard a bang on Fatima's door which is flat 160 400 I just
01:36:20 door which is flat 160 400 I just thought he was Fatima store because the bang was loud I said I was checking your neighbor and then I heard a normal almighty bang several times boom so I
01:36:31 almighty bang several times boom so I just thought he was off he was so loud as its what was just a flat to the soot from our front door to the right one six four because it was loud right and the
01:36:42 four because it was loud right and the front door to one six four is adjacent to yours
01:36:45 to yours yes to your right I think you might as well right yes but I found out it was my friend or our friend at one six one Debbie now you then described at
01:36:59 Debbie now you then described at paragraphs 41 a voice I heard a voice from outside telling us to be prepared to come out and then we should get towels that were completely wet and then
01:37:10 towels that were completely wet and then you go on to describe the preparations that you made to get you and Billy and your dog out of the
01:37:21 you and Billy and your dog out of the flat
01:37:25 do you remember whether at that stage when you were making these preparations the firefighters well let me just ask you this where were the firefighters at that stage when you were making these
01:37:36 that stage when you were making these preparations I'm not too sure they des told us to you know we know you're there what's gonna come checked your neighbor then I heard an almighty bang and
01:37:47 then I heard an almighty bang and several bangs and then we just waited so I just made sure that the towers are just one put some more water on the on the towels that were in the bath and then I tried to get my wife to stand up
01:37:59 then I tried to get my wife to stand up and go to like near the front door and then I try to put a towel on her she was just like get away don't put that on me
01:38:10 just like get away don't put that on me put one on my dog Luis and I did and we just waited and today today returns and
01:38:23 just waited and today today returns and when they return to then bang on the door again yeah yeah there's a kick or bang or something like this Yeah right deed anybody any of those firefighters
01:38:36 deed anybody any of those firefighters ask you whether you or pilly had any mobility or other issues know how many firefighters did you see all sense were there I did at that point I didn't know
01:38:48 there I did at that point I didn't know how many were outside but once we open the door I didn't know how many were there but I just said that somebody who had my wife somebody grabbed me yeah
01:39:01 had my wife somebody grabbed me yeah I didn't see them I mean I didn't register well they looked like it was just like an arm coming out of this of the smoke the smoke just rushed into the
01:39:14 the smoke the smoke just rushed into the flat and
01:39:17 flat and and then I didn't even see properly the fire offices to see an arm one cup of my wife someday they'll feel the officer mess stepped in but another one another
01:39:28 mess stepped in but another one another arm came from me and that was because I they said be prepared get ready we're coming open the door now so and you opened the door to them yes and and
01:39:41 you opened the door to them yes and and then at that moment smoke rushed in yeah that's my crush diamond and I said also I've got my dog here but if I said I'm
01:39:52 I've got my dog here but if I said I'm really sorry we've got to go now was it when do you think or do when do you recall that the firefighters first realized that Pilli had mobility difficulties I don't think David they'd
01:40:07 difficulties I don't think David they'd ever knew you know I think the fire officer once PD went out into the you know we went out into the darkness and
01:40:19 know we went out into the darkness and it was completely completely dark and I think then I I had my my hand around my wife's waist and then we went into the
01:40:31 wife's waist and then we went into the darkness then I lost her so I was just started screaming where's my wife where's my wife and somebody said look I've got her
01:40:44 and then you cross the lobby yeah with the firefighter with the firefighters yes and when you got to the stair door
01:40:55 yes and when you got to the stair door who opened the door to the stairs do you remember it was dark I never saw anything I didn't see you see the door open didn't see when how we got into the
01:41:07 open didn't see when how we got into the stairwell
01:41:09 stairwell we were just shuffling along the gentleman had me very tightly on my left arm and I fought that the fire officer
01:41:24 arm and I fought that the fire officer myself went first I believe I've read otherwise that we did in but I just thought that we went first and by the instant I thought my dog will come you
01:41:35 instant I thought my dog will come you know afterwards take a moment take every day thank you I'm not on fine thank you
01:41:50 yeah so we just remembered the stairwell door opening or closing because it was just dark of course I've
01:42:02 because it was just dark of course I've got a tower of my head my eyes are open my eyes are closed my eyes open my eyes are closed tell but there was no light
01:42:14 just some questions on the lobby how long it's very much an estimate of course do you think it took it for you to cross the lobby from your front door
01:42:26 to cross the lobby from your front door to the stairwell be 10 seconds so shuffled along we weren't dragged we just shuffled along and there's a far and during that
01:42:37 along and there's a far and during that that's probably from where I'm sitting to where you're standing just a little bit more during that period you said earlier in your evidence this morning that you heard you registered the sound
01:42:48 that you heard you registered the sound or whirring or whining sound yeah a whining sound that was that was going on so it wasn't alarm bells or anything else it's just this
01:43:00 else it's just this sound how loud was it is audible it wasn't like super loud it was just constant whining I don't know why it was
01:43:14 constant whining I don't know why it was but had you ever heard it before not in that capacity I mean I don't know whether it was the extractor system was I've heard that going off and making
01:43:25 I've heard that going off and making noise but it was just just a mixture yeah just this this this is whining noise I don't I don't know I don't know where it was coming from right you say
01:43:38 where it was coming from right you say you heard heard the extractor system going off before that's before the fire well that's before the fire that used to make noise I remember coming I mean the x-axis has always been there but I
01:43:51 x-axis has always been there but I remember then upgrading it and cleaning it one day they had the panel two front panels off and it was nice and shiny and clean in there but the vents were always
01:44:02 clean in there but the vents were always been there that's the fabric of the building so but one day I saw they took the grid off and it was all nice clean
01:44:13 the grid off and it was all nice clean shiny metal inside so they upgraded it all or just cleaned out and these noises that you heard the extractor fan making was that after the refurbishment after
01:44:26 was that after the refurbishment after before I never used to know hiss I mean I probably knew what they were for but it was more after the refurbishment that that that noise
01:44:37 that that noise is mainly on the on the ground floor like whether the lift lobby is here then right okay did you ever talk to anybody at the TMO about personally no did you
01:44:51 at the TMO about personally no did you hear it from when you were inside your flat at any time no so you heard it and you say it wasn't loud could you compare it with a vacuum cleaner now they're all
01:45:04 it with a vacuum cleaner now they're all softer than a vacuum cleaner they put it been I mean there's a lot going on is not as
01:45:10 not as and I'll probably vacuum-cleaner ich ich yeah but I couldn't I wasn't registering I just know that there was a whining
01:45:21 I just know that there was a whining noise and but I was more concerned about where my wife was and and what was was happening to to all of us the smoke that
01:45:33 happening to to all of us the smoke that you saw when he went out into the lobby was that thicker than or the same as the smoke that you first saw when you first opened your door no it was it was the same use just accurate lapse mode looked
01:45:46 same use just accurate lapse mode looked like someone had set fire to a tire in our lobby and that just that jet black smoke that we were you know having to breathe in but wasn't set fire to a tire
01:45:58 breathe in but wasn't set fire to a tire and then sticking your face in and and staying there that's that's how how it felt didn't have any physical effect on you yeah afterwards yes absolutely
01:46:09 afterwards yes absolutely I was I was sick for I was sick for a long time I collapsed several times I had to go back to a hospital I had to cut across you're over the jerk during
01:46:21 cut across you're over the jerk during your progress across the the lobby to do have any amino physical effect on you just the just effects of taking the gulp of that you know that there's no clean
01:46:32 of that you know that there's no clean fresh air to take in so you've had to take that that's a queer black smoke into your lungs and though and your next breath would be another one and then
01:46:43 breath would be another one and then another one and another one for there's no there's no clean air so you just have to you know take it in do the towels not
01:46:54 to you know take it in do the towels not not help when I was going down the stairwell I found myself that I couldn't breathe so I just thought to myself looked because I I used to do scuba
01:47:08 looked because I I used to do scuba diving so I fall you don't have to breathe every nanosecond I've ever go scuba diving the first 10 or 15 dives you you run out of oxygen very quickly because you just panic to breathe but afterwards just take your breathing much
01:47:21 afterwards just take your breathing much slower and I decided that even though we're going around and around and around and around and around and I just thought what just kind of control my breathing but then it
01:47:32 kind of control my breathing but then it was just so hot that I got the corner of the towel and twisted it around and stuck as far back into my throat as possible because it was just hot on the
01:47:45 possible because it was just hot on the back of my throat he was just burning so I just couldn't and the towel was moist and so that kind of maybe alleviate it a little bit but of course you got take a breath so
01:47:58 of course you got take a breath so there's in the darkness and even going down the stairs you know I don't know how many stairs maybe eight stairs so you've got to run down eight there's a flat bit again flat bit again in the
01:48:10 flat bit again flat bit again in the dark it's like asking me to go to platform one on Tori Lane tube station it's hard to fathom where you are you know you don't want to run downstairs but you know it's stairs and you know
01:48:23 but you know it's stairs and you know that you've got to move and it's just the bravery and the strength of the fire officer running along the wall while I was going on the inside of the where the railings were okay I'm gonna come to the
01:48:36 railings were okay I'm gonna come to the stair conditions and a bit more detail in just a moment before we before I do can we let us ask you still in the lobby did you notice any change in temperature in the lobby when you'd have between
01:48:47 in the lobby when you'd have between leaving on flat and going into the law yeah the temperature changed it was much hotter right I mean not if there was a buckle a whoosh like I could feel the
01:48:59 buckle a whoosh like I could feel the that the temperature changed but I think them the biggest temperature change was in this stairwell that was they wasn't it was just that initial shock that was in right out of my flat and there was an atmospheric
01:49:12 my flat and there was an atmospheric change of course and but the member more
01:49:20 more heat in the stairwell to stay with the lobby for the moment could you give us some impression about how hot it was in the in the lobby comparing it with something like hot English summer's day
01:49:32 something like hot English summer's day or a sauna in the lobby not necess I think this song a bit was - stairwell more at the summer's day kind of tepid
01:49:44 more at the summer's day kind of tepid there was a temperature change right so it's not that was registered the differential but that the stairwell was that's like that vacuum of I was over
01:49:56 that's like that vacuum of I was over like walking into a sauna Dennis Danna that's a different atmosphere okay at that that's my next question when you get into the stairs was that change in temperature immediate notnot as I went
01:50:07 temperature immediate notnot as I went further down the stairwell it got it got hotter okay and then I was holding onto the rail and and then I don't know what
01:50:19 the rail and and then I don't know what happened the heat was just unbearable I didn't see any fire I didn't see anything but I just know that I was holding on to the rail it got hotter and hotter and then I could not touch it it
01:50:30 hotter and then I could not touch it it was like maybe opening my card touching the energy and straight after it's just be turned off you you wouldn't want to touch the metal and then I couldn't I couldn't touch the and I
01:50:43 couldn't I couldn't touch the and I don't know where we were in the stairwell what floor anyway I just understood that maybe this is it maybe there's a fire is gonna come now or maybe there's been a gas explosion in
01:50:55 maybe there's been a gas explosion in the stairwell because there was a gas pipe running the whole length of this I mean we you know my friends shall we discuss that with the TMO with the
01:51:06 discuss that with the TMO with the council why you know an after fall of we just had this 10 million pound refurbishment you put all new Fork ceilings we and now your secondary fault
01:51:17 ceilings we and now your secondary fault is that
01:51:17 is that oh we forgot the gas so we're going to now put more pipes and more things into your houses and change things around and and maybe for that one the the gas pipes
01:51:28 and maybe for that one the the gas pipes would burn because the heat was very intense
01:51:31 intense was that a thought you had while you were descending the stairs oh yeah I think because I couldn't register why there would be so much heat in the this the that permeated the area that you're
01:51:44 the that permeated the area that you're meant to be the safe is in so the stairs are meant to be the protection the shell that inner core where people should be safe to get out of the tower and I just
01:51:55 safe to get out of the tower and I just didn't comprehend or how that much he was in that in that thing did it come from out of flats into the stairwell or was it produced in the stairwell and
01:52:07 was it produced in the stairwell and maybe the the gas had ruptured and been on fire I mean I didn't see any any fire then there wasn't like a panic where you know most of my thoughts about breathing
01:52:18 know most of my thoughts about breathing and like where is my wife that was like if I'm suffering like now what she going through you know I didn't I didn't know
01:52:29 through you know I didn't I didn't know that she had already collapsed and if he goes like this but I just my mind was like I'm not gonna make this so you know where's my wife I understand I just want
01:52:40 where's my wife I understand I just want to see if I can and I know it's very difficult but you see if I can unpick a little bit of the temperature changes as you come down so when you leave the lobby and you enter the stairs for the
01:52:51 lobby and you enter the stairs for the first time put your foot on the stairs you know you're in the stairs yes did you notice a change in temperature at that point no not from from the lobby sleep of coming out of the you know my
01:53:03 sleep of coming out of the you know my feet my mind was resting on okay this is the stairs you know so now got to we're gonna go down the stairs in pitch black we came down the stairs a bit and then I
01:53:16 we came down the stairs a bit and then I as I feel I stepped on somebody there was a body but in the stairwell so I was like well
01:53:28 but in the stairwell so I was like well when I went to registered say that that felt funny you know cuz I looked down I couldn't see my feet and my colors fall that can't be maybe maybe it's a fire
01:53:40 that can't be maybe maybe it's a fire hose or something like that just trying to but then we continued down there's none of those things in the way in the stairs but that initial of me stepping a
01:53:51 stairs but that initial of me stepping a force I stepped on somebody and that happened quite quickly I think before that experience did you notice a change in the temperature in the stairs no not necessarily from the lobby into that stairs but once
01:54:04 from the lobby into that stairs but once we were in the stairs there was a differential change to the atmosphere and the heat right once once you were into the stairs and how big was the change in temperature once you got into
01:54:15 change in temperature once you got into the size as we went further down it got hotter and hotter hotter yeah at what point again it's difficult I know to be precise about these things but at what point after how many flights also do you
01:54:26 point after how many flights also do you think you began to notice it getting hotter
01:54:29 hotter couldn't I just to mate about I just didn't know where I was or anything else is there a point when it began to and
01:54:40 is there a point when it began to and you've described the hot handrail and the heat yeah it was there a point during your descent when he began to cool down a bit more talk the the problem is that I can remember that he I
01:54:56 problem is that I can remember that he I can remember the railing but I have a total I know said some things in my statement but I have a total blackout of how I when I came into or got handed
01:55:11 how I when I came into or got handed over I don't remember anything of the bottom part of the stairs I tried in my mind to you know
01:55:21 see what happened but there was a point where I thought I was I was finished I was buckling I can't breathe I don't believe that I passed out I don't
01:55:33 believe that I passed out I don't believe I think that the four officers statement would have said that disguise passed out or something like this so I don't believe I posit but I don't have in my mind now the recollection of the bottom half of coming out or meeting
01:55:48 bottom half of coming out or meeting anybody or being handed over I got nothing in my brain about that at all my next realization my next awakening was being in the atrium and I think I've
01:56:02 was being in the atrium and I think I've already had a discussion with somebody that I wasn't leaving the tower so there's a lot of things that I just I know I know I read my statements that
01:56:13 know I know I read my statements that there's a hand over there but I in my head now I've got nothing at all recollection of what happened that those bottom stairs coming into the light or
01:56:24 bottom stairs coming into the light or into fresh air or or anything I got nothing at all in my brain I've tried to
01:56:32 to search but I don't have nothing at all so you don't remember at what point the smoke began to boil you first all night no I'd the next view it was a
01:56:45 night no I'd the next view it was a realization in my mind is standing next to a green door to the boxing ring so I must had a discussion that I was not leaving the tower until I know where my
01:56:58 leaving the tower until I know where my wife is and I'm sorry I just don't have that that visual in my head at all okay
01:57:09 that that visual in my head at all okay before that blank period is there a point you do remember when you registered the heat being at peak intensity oh yeah when I was having to
01:57:20 intensity oh yeah when I was having to take my hand off the rail that's very helpful but just trying one more thing if I can get a bit more out of this roughly how many flights do you think
01:57:31 roughly how many flights do you think you've gone down when I got I couldn't I couldn't tell you I couldn't I couldn't tell you whether it's on the third floor the tenth floor or even the 16th floor I
01:57:42 the tenth floor or even the 16th floor I couldn't I just won a sixteenth floor less than sixty books you've been going around and around right I could not tell you exactly the point of I don't pick up
01:57:54 you exactly the point of I don't pick up blacked out or collapsed or fell over I just don't know I have no recollection of coming into fresh air coming into maybe being handed over or maybe
01:58:07 maybe being handed over or maybe somebody else taking me I I don't know what happened you you say we less than the sixteenth floor because we've been
01:58:18 the sixteenth floor because we've been going round and round yeah so we've been going round and around for a bit and then I don't know where the the heat was coming from and it was just hotter and hotter and then I just vaguely
01:58:31 hotter and then I just vaguely remembered just the heat of the Bannister and I was just intense about the the brave fire officer he was I remember him reassuring me you can do it
01:58:42 remember him reassuring me you can do it we're nearly dead let's go you can do it we're nearly there let's go you know you know you're gonna make it so he I could hear that ringing in my head even though
01:58:53 hear that ringing in my head even though I never even saw that the gentleman but I just yeah I just I don't I don't remember anything in that kind of
01:59:04 remember anything in that kind of section now outside the tower you were treated I think by the paramedics but before there was before I
01:59:20 paramedics but before there was before I was i must had this some discussion because I was at the the gym door and then time just stopped it just seemed forever and ever and ever and I was
01:59:34 forever and ever and ever and I was panicking because mother like I didn't know where my wife was out first of all she was behind me because you know I didn't I didn't know what was happening
01:59:45 didn't I didn't know what was happening I knew that I was standing my ground and I wasn't gonna leave that tower until I knew where my wife wasn't and then boom the door bursts opened and you know for
01:59:59 the door bursts opened and you know for fire officers had my my wife one on each limb you see so they were holding their backwards apart from her her little top
02:00:11 backwards apart from her her little top she had no clothes on no sauce no shoes no underwear no trousers no cardigan and I just thought she was dead I thought
02:00:22 I just thought she was dead I thought maybe she got bird or something's happened in that stairwell and you know she had no clothes on so to stand there in total disarray in shock there what
02:00:35 in total disarray in shock there what happens is she's dead and they just just bringing her out and then they they come past me and I just they didn't even stop to look at me really but I had the towel so I just flew over over her and they
02:00:50 so I just flew over over her and they just they just continued but I think we waited I don't know how long it was in the at the bottom because we had to wait for fire officers or police officers
02:01:03 for fire officers or police officers with riot shields because now the debris outside the front main door was raining I mean there was coming down so we had to have a shelter so they officers have
02:01:16 to have a shelter so they officers have my wife still like this and and then we waited to be rushed out of the tower under where the the the garages are and then then led
02:01:30 the the garages are and then then led away and did you see pili being treated outside what happened was so to make my
02:01:43 outside what happened was so to make my way across the green and there was a commotion with people coming to us and and everything else I turned around once
02:01:54 and everything else I turned around once and saw the whole of the building totally ablaze and now sticking my head forever that just that one snapshot and
02:02:06 forever that just that one snapshot and then I'm and then I got I think there was near Bommel road there laughing it
02:02:17 was near Bommel road there laughing it was free mats so there was maybe a red man a yellow mat and a green mat our triage mats big big ones and I think
02:02:28 triage mats big big ones and I think they're speeding to like four as well and I think I just got taken over to the green mat and I sat down against the wall and tried to catch my breath cuz i
02:02:42 wall and tried to catch my breath cuz i was a total disarray I think I saw some people that I knew that's where my husband they will sit in their tree just kind of but then I was in total panic
02:02:54 kind of but then I was in total panic because I looked over and I saw somebody having CPR
02:03:11 so I fool you know of to see my wife coming out with no clothes on and an eyeful she was dead so I just I tried to get up and there's people around the UK
02:03:23 get up and there's people around the UK but I'm just saying where's my wife I need to get my wife and then all of a sudden somebody just said is this your wife and she just come walking over so
02:03:34 wife and she just come walking over so after a little bit more investigation I'm free
02:03:37 I'm free it was a gentleman that was having CPR and I don't think he made it and so we embraced s' and then I tried to get up but then I think I collapsed
02:03:49 to get up but then I think I collapsed and then they brought me over to the the yellow mat and started putting oxygen mask
02:03:57 mask over me and giving me oxygen and then and then I was like trying to get back to my wife clothes I wasn't really being
02:04:08 to my wife clothes I wasn't really being a good patient so I wanted to get up and and then somebody said well your wife is gone gone where and then I said they've
02:04:19 gone gone where and then I said they've taken I said where so they went off I said Gold find out where they taking her and they come back and says I think they're going to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital so when some more paramedics
02:04:34 Hospital so when some more paramedics and people come from me I was demanding I need diverted because I figure our local hospital for their areas like that marries well Charing Cross Charing Cross
02:04:47 marries well Charing Cross Charing Cross I think is our local for that area so you automatically get taken but I wasn't saying I'm not going nowhere unless you take me to Chelsea and Westminster my wife is there just
02:05:01 wife is there just do you have a number of other questions you have about I have three or four on the same sort of topic and then yes we
02:05:17 the same sort of topic and then yes we will take a break anyway at the end of these questions mr. chairman in the usual take the customer break if the witnesses can miss content to continue for another five minutes thank you Thank
02:05:31 for another five minutes thank you Thank You mr. chairman now I think we know that you were taken in an ambulance and then you you couldn't find her and it took 12 hours to find out where she was and it turned out that she'd gone to the
02:05:43 and it turned out that she'd gone to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead yeah taken to the in the ambulance that the light the particular stretcher but once I was in the ambulance the mood got a lighter with the ambulance people they
02:05:57 lighter with the ambulance people they are kind of try and still catch my breath and so it was coming out everywhere and coughing you've got I've got lights well I'm gonna go to be reunited when I got to Chelsea and
02:06:10 reunited when I got to Chelsea and Westminster soon she wasn't there and I saw a friend of mine the company I used to work for he was running it like working a knee so I told him to please
02:06:21 working a knee so I told him to please go find my wife she's here she's here I was very emotional in the hospital because he was telling me that I can't find her you say in your statement that I think it took till 6 p.m. or say the
02:06:32 I think it took till 6 p.m. or say the next evening 6 or 3 I'm not sure sort of time on adjusting how do you oh no wasn't 6 is maybe how are you able in
02:06:43 wasn't 6 is maybe how are you able in the end to discover where she was it is actually a phone call that came in to me I only spoke to my sister so my sister was on the case other people people were phoning me if one of
02:06:54 people people were phoning me if one of my first phone calls was actually from New Zealand's what my friend was lost in there they like from New Zealand other people were phoning because I did actually when I was in the triage took time to just
02:07:07 was in the triage took time to just detect my mother my sister my son-in-law and my grandson but don't worry we will okay or something like this I just lift it like that were you aware of any system in place for finding out where
02:07:20 system in place for finding out where pili had been taken or was it just a question of ringing around trying potluck I don't know about the systems but there was a just because I've worked in hospitals like for 12 years you know
02:07:32 in hospitals like for 12 years you know I was always worked in hospitals but when there's major incident there's a and the information closed down so it's even difficult for families and press
02:07:44 even difficult for families and press and other people to to find out they don't even put your name on on your band as mi
02:07:51 as mi 0:01 or whatever so something like this so it was very difficult and I actually got a phone call maybe from the hospital to say that she's here
02:08:10 Gamze paragraph 63 just for a second on page 21 you say it took me a full 12
02:08:24 page 21 you say it took me a full 12 hours to finally find out where pili was you've been taken to the Royal Free Hospital after hours an accident an emergency and then transferred to a ward
02:08:36 emergency and then transferred to a ward I phoned around people that I knew at different hospitals asking him if they could look out for pili eventually I received a call from the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead yeah to tell me that pili was there and was safe so
02:08:47 that pili was there and was safe so before you first of all you are na ne at Chelsea Westminster Westminster yes and did you ask the staff there to find pili
02:09:00 did you ask the staff there to find pili yes I did
02:09:01 yes I did and what did they tell you I asked the nurses the doctors everybody that would listen where's my wife she's been brought here I was quite adamant that she's here and then I met my friend Paulo and I told
02:09:15 then I met my friend Paulo and I told him to go and look so you have access to you know you know my wife's face so you know my wife right so I'll go and look for her please were the services at
02:09:26 for her please were the services at Chelsea Westminster Hospital able to tell you at least how to go about finding her um no and then you received a call from Royal Free did they tell you
02:09:41 a call from Royal Free did they tell you how they got hold of you know so it was a call out of the blue was it there's a pull out of the blue saying that your wife is here at the Royal Free Hospital so I decided that I'm not gonna stay
02:09:54 so I decided that I'm not gonna stay there anymore right and I'll get out and go
02:09:59 mr. Burton I've come to the end of my questions and I think now may be the time for our customary break so I can check my notes to see if there's anything else I need to ask you or with other people have things they would like me to ask you mr. mr.
02:10:10 would like me to ask you mr. mr. chairman if you can we can rise for a short time we'll have a short break at this point mr. until 20 past 12:00 as I said before please don't talk about their evidence to anyone when they're
02:10:21 their evidence to anyone when they're out of the room and give the ocean national the crafty thank you thank you
02:10:41 right 25:12 please
02:17:12 you
02:17:27 you
02:20:08 a few questions was unit mr. chairman yes thank you
02:20:33 well mr. millet has a few questions he says so we'll see you'll be good yes thank you mr. Bevin really just a few thank you very much for coming back to us now this is really just to treble check something you told us that the
02:20:46 check something you told us that the smoke came into the flat as a result of opening that the door the front door to the lobby once perhaps twice yes once the front door was closed and you had wet towels put in place yes did you see
02:20:58 wet towels put in place yes did you see any smoke coming through either the bottom or the top or the sides of the door no I never right different different question you've told us that you worked in hospitals it also right
02:21:10 you worked in hospitals it also right that you're your wife pilly had also worked in hospitals yeah that's correct for many years so in that respect would it be right that you and she knew the hospital system if I can put it that way
02:21:21 hospital system if I can put it that way you knew your way around a London hospital system quite well yeah I mean my wife was a contract manager the facilities were catering and the mess
02:21:34 facilities were catering and the mess isn't cleaning and I was I've had several different job roles like I still run the Katori in that Charing Cross hospitals a big major Hospital 500 plus beds at Mary's on kateryna's and Mary's
02:21:47 beds at Mary's on kateryna's and Mary's I've run private hospitals so I had an idea of you know because I do training for staff for on health and safety and I've had five training but I mean I
02:22:00 I've had five training but I mean I think you'll probably get around the system how communications to maybe find no families to find you know the loved
02:22:11 no families to find you know the loved ones in hospital but I've had lots of kind of training I mean in a major hospital you know if you know office and the fire alarm goes off you're you go down the stairwell and you go congregate
02:22:23 down the stairwell and you go congregate in areas if the fire isn't on the ward for the patients you don't evacuate the patients you decant them from one wall to another so it's a decanting system
02:22:35 to another so it's a decanting system and other people go way in car parks and everything else and we've we've had many of those in in in the hospital system but my question is really well meant by Henry Lee asked her yet but were you
02:22:46 Henry Lee asked her yet but were you able as a result of your and deep ILI's experience and career working in in the hospital in distributed environment we
02:22:57 hospital in distributed environment we did that enable you to draw on the help of friends and and colleagues or ex colleagues to be able to find pili yeah because people were phoning me yeah
02:23:11 yeah because people were phoning me yeah I understand you know yeah actually I think one of my directors called during the night as well so but he I mean they would they
02:23:25 well so but he I mean they would they run he runs Chelsea in Westminster Hospital and some other people my phone was I didn't I think I'm that much sleep you know they were the nursery staff
02:23:37 you know they were the nursery staff were very adamant that I just sit there quietly and taking oxygen but I was a bit more vocal about you know I need to to find and people were phoning me even
02:23:50 to find and people were phoning me even though it was very late and early into the morning people knew about it very very quickly and but at that stage I think it was just my colleague Paolo that I was kind of begging when I first
02:24:02 that I was kind of begging when I first arrived at Chelsea and Westminster to go and try and find you know I knew a lot of people already in the hospital in the domestics and catering services at
02:24:14 domestics and catering services at Chelsea and Westminster but yeah but I was kind of we were kind of shut off to the world you know we're put into a ward and you know I mean we're going visiting
02:24:26 and you know I mean we're going visiting my wife on the ward and they they had armed police officers there I was talking people coming in people were saying that their friends or their you
02:24:38 saying that their friends or their you know even people saying they were related and still trying to get in onto the ward so when I went to absent perhaps that hospital yeah there was
02:24:52 perhaps that hospital yeah there was police officers everything their God in my wife and Rebecca were you ever told
02:25:03 my wife and Rebecca were you ever told of the selection process that was used to decide which hospital people from Grenfell were sent to no I was never
02:25:14 Grenfell were sent to no I was never usually I've been from the tower catchment area I think Charing Cross is the local hospital so this body doesn't take very long to to get there and
02:25:26 take very long to to get there and she'll say Westminster's also said Mary's Paddington so I mean it's just to do with catchment areas I think it's body there most with operating system for the ambulance to
02:25:38 operating system for the ambulance to say would go into this I didn't know about the the the why this girl because I mean I know I know I mean I was I was at Saint Mary's Hospital during the 7/7
02:25:49 at Saint Mary's Hospital during the 7/7 bombings and and I know that they locked down the hospitals and stuff like this and people come from different parts of the of what was happening in London that
02:26:00 the of what was happening in London that made me to do the speciality of the hospital so we found so on we were heart attack where they were in in Russell Square there might take them to UCL or they might take the Samaria so
02:26:13 to UCL or they might take the Samaria so it's all I'm not too sure exactly how their sisters work to have an understanding of what happened
02:26:24 understanding of what happened mr. Burton I've got one final question for you and it's this is there anything over and above your written witness statement and over and above what you've told us today about the events of the
02:26:37 told us today about the events of the night what you heard you saw you smelt what you felt that you think it's important for the Chairman to know
02:26:47 I'll be deliberating about this question as well said many times and thought advisable gonna write something down or
02:26:58 advisable gonna write something down or a major speech or something but I just know that and I'll just keep it so it's this is how an historic event you know consciousness of the nation is
02:27:10 you know consciousness of the nation is is looking at all of us you know how this inquiry how the police investigation is going and but this this
02:27:22 investigation is going and but this this has this is so important they it has to stop here we've seen failings and fade I've been felled so many times you know failings and failings of failings with other fires and other things lessons not
02:27:37 other fires and other things lessons not learn so grateful has to stand for something and it's a stop here about how people are treated and how the the loopholes in the system need to be
02:27:48 loopholes in the system need to be closed you know with we as survivors no fee we're dealing with multi-billion power corporations we're fighting against a system that is broken and they
02:28:01 against a system that is broken and they know it's broken but you know they're just used to put sticking-plaster over it and then move on and they kind of you know no disrespect with inquiries but I think that's just as a system initially
02:28:13 think that's just as a system initially to save the government of the day and the embarrassment oh we're gonna have an inquiry to find out the truth and then time lapses we do get hopefully we get to the bottom of this and to find out
02:28:24 to the bottom of this and to find out the truth but it's over long period of time we've spent times with the Hillsborough families in spend times with other people during Lawrence respective time I've been going around
02:28:36 respective time I've been going around the country myself going off to Manchester Plymouth from Portsmouth talking to people and they are absolutely scared of living in tower blocks with that cladding still on so
02:28:48 blocks with that cladding still on so the system is not working we meet up with I mean with the Prime Minister downwards you know all the housing ministers they they talked
02:28:59 ministers they they talked but you know this is that this has to be the one where it stops and justice for me that you know this never happens again you know we have a fair system you know we've got a lot to deal with
02:29:10 know we've got a lot to deal with especially in this environment at the moment but it has to stop here it can't go on and then we'll be talking about another major incident where's the fire a lot of life and then we're talking
02:29:22 a lot of life and then we're talking about did we learn any lessons from grenfell did we learn anything from heals what did we learn anything from anything it has to mean serious stuff I mean we've all been through a lot I mean
02:29:33 mean we've all been through a lot I mean we've got families here now that have lost you know multiple people in and it's been very very challenging so you know the weight of responsibility is yourself you know to to make
02:29:47 yourself you know to to make recommendations now and put them into place now not just wait for a report and then the government say yes we've got the report and now we're going to think about another consultation process to go through fits it has to stop here boot
02:30:00 through fits it has to stop here boot Grenfell and grateful I believe will mean something you know changes in regulations changes in attitudes social housing all these big things that
02:30:11 housing all these big things that previous governments have been just you know it's been wiping away because it's not their concern at the moment and and and that's why the lives are lost so the
02:30:22 and that's why the lives are lost so the lessons has to be learned here and now and stop here mr. Burke thank you and thank you for that in particular you're welcome and I just want to say thank you
02:30:33 welcome and I just want to say thank you to you for coming here today and giving us evidence it's not easy and your assistant with our investigations has been immensely helpful so thank you very much good morning welcome thank you
02:30:45 much good morning welcome thank you heard my thanks mr. Burton knew right keys draw attention to the importance of the inquiry and you've played your part in it
02:30:54 in it coming to give you our evidence and talking about what must been a dreadful experience and it must have taken a lot of courage to do it I'm well aware of that yeah a loss happened on this on
02:31:05 that yeah a loss happened on this on this journey you know I'm doing the journey had a mostly open heart surgery as well and other things of haplin's along the way and you know yeah it's
02:31:17 along the way and you know yeah it's this is another step on your long journey yeah and we're all very grateful to you for taking it and coming to tell us all about your experience thank you very much thank you well now you're free
02:31:28 very much thank you well now you're free to go would you like to go over the actual shoe look after you wonderful thank you very much
02:31:49 yes it's minute mr. chairman it is now 25 to 1 and I would like if I may to use the next 25 minutes by yes doing a little bit of the
02:32:02 minutes by yes doing a little bit of the reading in of witness statements that I was proposing to do this afternoon I hope that doesn't no no that's a good idea let's make use of the toast room there are a number of statements I'm
02:32:16 there are a number of statements I'm planning to read you won't get to them all by the time one o'clock comes and say what I'm hoping to do is to finish the reading off after the next oral witness yes don't come at 10 o'clock
02:32:28 witness yes don't come at 10 o'clock that's perfectly all right can I start then with the statement of mr. Mustafa Abdul referenced iws
02:32:41 mr. Mustafa Abdul referenced iws quadruple 0 3 0 7 and his exhibit ma 1 2 ma 3 by WS 3 0 8 he was a resident of
02:32:55 ma 3 by WS 3 0 8 he was a resident of flat 184 on the foot 21st floor with an exit time of 128 a.m. this statement is dated the 17th of
02:33:07 a.m. this statement is dated the 17th of May 2018 and it stands under a statement of truth on page 5 of the statement he
02:33:18 of truth on page 5 of the statement he lived alone at flat 184 before the fire and had lived there for 27 years having moved there in 1990 and he lived with his brother Abdul Abdul Qadeer Abdul
02:33:30 his brother Abdul Abdul Qadeer Abdul until 2012 when he lived he left to live with his wife and children very nearby and they can see each other in fact frog
02:33:41 and they can see each other in fact frog who could from the windows and his statement is written in English although his first language as he explains is is to grinia yes he covers his experience
02:33:53 to grinia yes he covers his experience of the fire itself at paragraphs 9 17 and I should just pick out one or two
02:34:06 17 and I should just pick out one or two paragraphs in that and section he says paragraph 9 on the 14th of June 2017 I was woken at 1:10 by a phone call
02:34:18 2017 I was woken at 1:10 by a phone call from my brother I know that this was the time because I checked my phone afterward my brother told me that the tower was on fire he said he could see the fire and smell the smoke he pushed me to leave quickly to telling me to run
02:34:31 me to leave quickly to telling me to run for your life I could not see any sir fire or smoke in my flat but there was a slight smell of smoke I put on my tracksuit and trainers took my phone wallet and car keys and left my flat closing the front door behind me the
02:34:44 closing the front door behind me the front door did not close automatically and then he explains about the fire alarms in his flat and then he says at 11:00 as I entered the landing in front of my flat I could smell smoke I was only on the landing for a matter of
02:34:55 only on the landing for a matter of seconds but I could see the smoke getting thicker I could still see through the smoke and it appeared normal black-ish in color and not particularly hot or cold the lights on the landing were on I believed that there was a fire
02:35:07 were on I believed that there was a fire alarm on the landing but this did not sound on the night of the fire all the other doors on the floor was shut and there was no one else on the landing
02:35:13 landing I remember hearing the ventilation which was unusual I assumed this was because the motor was moving faster to try to extract the smoke I pushed the door that leads from the landing to the stairway
02:35:25 leads from the landing to the stairway and made my way down the stairs this shut this door shut automatically as I went down the stairs the smoke was getting thicker it was thick and black and the smell was getting stronger it forced me to cover my face with my hood
02:35:36 forced me to cover my face with my hood by the time I reached the tenth floor I began to tannic panic I had lost visibility due to the smoke and I became worried that the fire had spread inside the building but I couldn't see it
02:35:47 the building but I couldn't see it because of the smoke the smoke was hot and had a horrible strong smell which is difficult to define it seemed to be coming from the lower floors I entered the landing on the tenth floor and
02:35:58 the landing on the tenth floor and couldn't see anything to you to the smoke the lights on where on the landing were off and the door between the landing and the stairwell was shut I press the button to call the lift but the lifts had stopped working I
02:36:09 the lifts had stopped working I reentered the stairwell and thought about going back up to my flat but something told me to carry on going down the stairs as I went down from the tenth floor the smoke got thicker and thicker
02:36:20 floor the smoke got thicker and thicker I passed people going down the stairs everyone was rushing to get out but I was able to pass people and move between floors easily I had my mouth covered and was holding my breath trying not to inhale the smoke I can't remember
02:36:32 inhale the smoke I can't remember whether other people were coughing I passed a man who I later realized to be a resident going up the stairs I passed another man helping his elderly father to escape and two other people a lady and a man I would not be able to
02:36:44 a lady and a man I would not be able to name them that they were people I recognized from the tower I cannot remember if the doors leading from the stairway to the landing on other floors were open it was dark and I was just concentrating on getting out I
02:36:55 was just concentrating on getting out I was familiar with the stairs and so I was able to judge where to place my feet there was little congestion on the stairs at this point on the way down I passed a firefighter who was going up the stairs he slowed down to let me pass
02:37:07 the stairs he slowed down to let me pass and told me to carry on going down the stairs I don't think he had a hose with him I believe that this happened at around the seventh floor I reached the ground floor and left the tower through the main door others were leaving at the
02:37:19 the main door others were leaving at the same time that I was able to walk straight out it took me about seven minutes to get down the stairs normally it wouldn't take more than five minutes I left the building at oh one twenty
02:37:30 I left the building at oh one twenty five and like all other statements that are being read into the record mr. chairman his statement will be in the record in its entirety and taken into account in its entirety by the inquiry
02:37:41 account in its entirety by the inquiry the next statement I would wish to read into the record as the statement of sameera Hamden and she is a relative of
02:37:52 sameera Hamden and she is a relative of the Hamden and belle cardi family residents of flat 175 four of whom died in the fire this statement is dated the 20th or 21st of
02:38:03 statement is dated the 20th or 21st of September 2018 there's a statement of truth in the first paragraph at the in this in the final sentence and the signature pages page 15 of this
02:38:14 signature pages page 15 of this statement
02:38:16 a paragraph to the paragraph - she says and she describes her family relationships and I'll read them aloud my sister Farah Hamden her husband Omar
02:38:28 my sister Farah Hamden her husband Omar bell cardi her children Malik Bell cardi Tasnim bell cardi and Alena bell cardi lived in 175 grand felt our Tasnim was the only member of the family to survive
02:38:40 the only member of the family to survive the fire
02:38:45 she Samira lived herself on Clarence and walk which is close to Grenfell tower as we know with her husband and her children and they had moved to Clarendon walk in 2004 she describes the night of
02:39:00 walk in 2004 she describes the night of the fire
02:39:00 the fire from paragraph 8 onwards and at paragraphs 11 on what she describes how she first became aware of the fire and
02:39:11 she first became aware of the fire and she says that around 1:00 a.m. my phone started ringing and I saw her it was Farah I knew immediately that something was wrong I answered the phone and she sounded panicked I asked her what was wrong and she explained that there was a
02:39:22 wrong and she explained that there was a fire in Grenville tower I asked her if it was near to her and she said she thought it was lever down the building I told her that she need not worry if the fire was not near her I was not concerned at this point I was just
02:39:34 concerned at this point I was just relieved that the fire was not near her I told her that if she was told to leave she should come around to our house rather than wait outside the tower she seemed calm and knowing that she could come to mine the call ended after
02:39:45 could come to mine the call ended after a few minutes and then at paragraph 13 and following she describes how she leaves the flat and goes out and looks at the fire and she says at 17 I left
02:40:02 at the fire and she says at 17 I left our block of flats and walked out onto land onto a road I wanted to take the usual route to grenfell tower via that road and then past ka school as I got
02:40:13 road and then past ka school as I got closer to the tower I noticed there were lots more people out than usual at that time some were distressed some were on their phones I wanted to get closer to the tower that I reached the police cordon just by the school I was not allowed to pass I could hear sirens and
02:40:26 allowed to pass I could hear sirens and knew the emergency services were all I felt panic but I reassured myself by telling myself that everyone who needed to be there was there I saw one of my neighbors holding a man back and trying to calm him down I saw a police officer
02:40:38 to calm him down I saw a police officer and told him that my sister and her family were in the tower I think that this was around 1:30 a.m. I'd used up all my data so I couldn't contact Farrah by whatsapp I tried to call her instead
02:40:50 by whatsapp I tried to call her instead but was unable to get through I kept looking up at her window and thinking that the fire was not there and repeating to myself that everyone was there who needed to be there and then at
02:41:01 there who needed to be there and then at paragraphs 26 to 29 after the time mark of about 2 a.m. which she identifies the paragraph 25 she describes speaking with Farrah again on the phone and then
02:41:15 Farrah again on the phone and then walking or and walking around the tower from different angles at 27 she says I did not want to panic her I asked where they were and if they were ok she told me that they were still in the flat
02:41:26 me that they were still in the flat I felt very afraid but I did not want to panic her I asked if the girls were ok and if they were awake and she told me that they were she told me that in order for them not to be afraid they were
02:41:37 for them not to be afraid they were playing a game I asked if they were coming out and she told me that the 9 9 9 operator had told them to stay put and help was coming I said are you all right and she said yes we're ok well there she
02:41:49 and she said yes we're ok well there she sounded fearful she seemed reassured that the operator had told them that help was on the way and knowing my sister and no she would not have wanted to alarm the girls we ended the conversation as I did not want to
02:42:01 conversation as I did not want to monopolize her time the reality of the situation was hitting me I turned to ty even asked him what is this what's going on I was starting to feel fearful Taibbi tried to reassure me
02:42:14 feel fearful Taibbi tried to reassure me he said that they would be okay and that everyone who needed to be there was there he told me that he thought that the tower would go but that they would be able to get everyone out I kept watching the tower the flames were
02:42:26 watching the tower the flames were rising but they were not at Ferris flat yet I think it was now approximately 2 a.m. and then she describes how the fire gets closer to Ferris window and then at 31 she says I kept asking tibe to call
02:42:39 31 she says I kept asking tibe to call home
02:42:39 home I was in a state of panic and shock and trying to comprehend what I was seeing tibe kept trying but the phone was engaged I remember thinking that other people would be calling them so he was probably on the phone to someone else
02:42:51 probably on the phone to someone else eventually tally was able to get through that I spoke to Farah this was approximately 10 minutes after our last conversation I tried not to sound panicked I asked if they had been told to leave yet and what was going on she
02:43:03 to leave yet and what was going on she said no they'd not been asked to leave they've been told to stay put and to put damp towels at the bottom of the door I checked that they'd done this and that the towels were wet she relayed to me that they had done that already I told
02:43:15 that they had done that already I told her to make sure they were ready when they were told to leave she told me they were ready and she had Lina tied to her in a sling she asked if I could see the fire I told her that I could she asked
02:43:27 fire I told her that I could she asked where it was and if it was bad I did not want her to be afraid and I was mindful that the children were with her I said it would be okay and did everybody who needed to be there was there she told me
02:43:38 needed to be there was there she told me that the girls were with her I could tell that she was fearful that she was talking in a calm manner in order not to scare the girls I think it was working as I could not hear any commotion or panic from the girls this was our last
02:43:50 panic from the girls this was our last conversation and then she describes a paragraph 38 to 14 particular what she saw when she got to warmer Road outside
02:44:04 saw when she got to warmer Road outside the building and in pair of 40 she says I saw there were hardly family crying so I went over and we embraced each other I saw Hannah and Wahhabi who lived on
02:44:15 I saw Hannah and Wahhabi who lived on the ninth floor I was relieved to see that she was out she told me that her other family members were on the 21st floor and she thought she could see them banging on the windows I did not want to look that closely and see people trapped
02:44:27 look that closely and see people trapped inside and then a paragraph 44 she describes Taibbi trying to call OMA but not being able to get through
02:44:39 and then the experience is she endured when trying to find her family which she explains from paragraph 53 onwards a
02:44:55 explains from paragraph 53 onwards a particular 56 66 to 68 on page 14 she says when we finally arrived at the Pediatrics intensive care unit when we got to the bed I saw that it was Tasnim
02:45:07 got to the bed I saw that it was Tasnim she was covered in black soot the staff quickly reassured me that she was stable and not in any immediate danger they explained that she had come in conscious but they put her in an induced coma to get rid of all the toxins that were in
02:45:18 get rid of all the toxins that were in her body I was struggling to absorb all the information and then it hit me where was everyone else I said to the nurse she has a baby sister and an older sister the nurse said that no babies had
02:45:29 sister the nurse said that no babies had been admitted but there was a little girl aged around 10 who was unaccompanied I turned around I saw the child and I knew immediately that it was Malik the nurse told me she was very poorly she was on the bed nearest the
02:45:40 poorly she was on the bed nearest the window mr. chairman the rest of that statement although I'm not reading at all will of course stands as evidence in the record they're fully taken into
02:45:52 the record they're fully taken into account
02:46:04 the next statement I wish to read mr. Chanin is L the statement of mr. L alarm e Hamden another member of the bereaved family with the Hamden Belk Rd family
02:46:16 family with the Hamden Belk Rd family he's the father of Farah who state who's the sister of Samira whose statement we've just read that and of course off Samira herself and his statement I don't
02:46:27 Samira herself and his statement I don't think I need to read any particular part of it into the record it will stand in its entirety as evidence in the record there's a statement of truth on page three yes maybe a signature and it's a
02:46:39 three yes maybe a signature and it's a statement which is dated the 18th of May 2018 the next statement I would wish to read into the record is the statement of
02:46:50 read into the record is the statement of mr. Ambrose Mende dated the 12th of September 2018 it's a statement which has a statement of truth at page three
02:47:02 has a statement of truth at page three over the signature on that page and I will just read one or two paragraphs of the statement into it into the record he says a paragraph - I am the cousin to
02:47:15 says a paragraph - I am the cousin to marry Mindy and her daughter Khadija say who lived on the 20th floor the flat 173 of grenfell tower I was granted corps participant status and I've been present every day of the oral hearings I've been
02:47:27 every day of the oral hearings I've been actively involved in the family and community events with my cousin Mary and her daughter Khadija since their untimely passing I'm now undertaking it as my priority in life to proactively engage in the inquiry process we have a
02:47:40 engage in the inquiry process we have a huge family that has not accepted what has become of Mary and Khadija they simply do not believe that this can happen in the Western world and that my dear cousin Denise succumb to such cruel and inhumane deaths and there are some
02:47:53 and inhumane deaths and there are some questions that he raises at paragraphs 6 7 8 and 9 and the paragraph 10 says I wait await the answers in the hope that one day I can explain the truth to my
02:48:05 one day I can explain the truth to my extended family and my family and begin the healing process
02:48:11 and it ends by saying I wish for my barristers to fight for justice and retribution until the very end the next
02:48:22 retribution until the very end the next statement that I would wish to read into the record is that of Luna L or Barney and she was a resident of flat 85 on the
02:48:34 and she was a resident of flat 85 on the 11th floor it's a statement date at the 15th of May 2018 with a statement of truth over a signature on page 11 and
02:48:50 she exited the tower at 1:28 a.m. in summary mr. Lloyd Barney had been a resident of the tower since March 2006
02:49:01 resident of the tower since March 2006 she lived there with her husband Yousef khalood and her three children on the evening of the 13th of June 2017 miss
02:49:13 evening of the 13th of June 2017 miss Ella Barney was at home with their children mr. Kelly returned to the flat about half past midnight on the 14th of June a paragraph nine of the statement
02:49:25 June a paragraph nine of the statement she says this under the title of refurbishments which starts just above paragraph seven no one gave us any information about the cladding all the work being carried out they never showed
02:49:37 work being carried out they never showed us anything about it being safe the far doors and the communal areas were always shut and were painted during the refurbishment we never received any fire safety talk and I've always been told to get out of the flat not stay in it in
02:49:49 get out of the flat not stay in it in the event of a fire we have no notice in our flat saying anything in the event of a fire we does not have anyone come around to do any safety checks apart from the gas check every year
02:50:04 and she explains a paragraph 12 how she was unhappy with the work done by the contractors because of the pipes and the gas were and the gas work being done
02:50:15 gas were and the gas work being done outside the tower she says a paragraph 13 also as he walked down the stairs they used to be floor numbers on the wall so you knew which floor you were on but they were removed since the refurbishment and the lights were put up
02:50:28 refurbishment and the lights were put up the paragraph 15 onwards she describes her experiences of the night of the fire itself I'm just picking it up if I can at paragraph 17 she says this at about
02:50:40 at paragraph 17 she says this at about 12:30 p.m. Yousef returned returned from the mosque we had a chat and he made tea to drink he received a phone call and
02:50:52 to drink he received a phone call and said that he had to go out he left quickly and didn't finish his tea and didn't say where he was going he didn't close the front door properly so I assumed he was just seeing a friend and could come back up I closed the door and went back to the sitting-room to wait
02:51:04 went back to the sitting-room to wait and see what it was I thought I could smell a little bit of gas at this point I initially thought it might be my phone overheating I went to the kitchen to check the cooker but I couldn't smell anything in the kitchen I think Yosef left the flat at about
02:51:16 I think Yosef left the flat at about 1:20 a.m. I then went to my bedroom and a friend of mine phoned me at about 125 arian Amina who lives nearby she asked if I was asleep I said no but I was just
02:51:29 if I was asleep I said no but I was just about to go to bed she was speaking with a raised voice and sounded alarmed she sounded frightened and like she was panicking she said that the building was on fire and she could see that the fire is approaching my floor she asked if we
02:51:40 is approaching my floor she asked if we could get out what she said and how she said it alarmed me I told her okay okay I'm going
02:51:46 I'm going Yosef had returned while I was on the phone to Amina I went to see him in the living room he was on the phone now as well Yosef was standing by the table on the west side of the room I waited for a couple of moments for him to finish his
02:51:57 couple of moments for him to finish his conversation I then told him what I meana had said he told me that Hashem told him the same thing I asked him what we were going to do he said let's get the children up and go out I listened to him but I was
02:52:10 out I listened to him but I was panicking I went to wake up the children I told them we needed to get up to leave the flat a child wanted to put on his tracksuit bottoms but I said we had no time and we just have to leave he was
02:52:22 time and we just have to leave he was wearing the green shorts and the shirt he was sleeping in I went into my bedroom to pick up a jacket behind the door and my scarf that was on top of the chest of drawers we'd seen nothing of the fire and had not smelt anything in the flat apart from the gas that I
02:52:33 the flat apart from the gas that I thought I'd smelled earlier Yosef picked up a child who was sleeping in our bed we have shelves for the shoes by the door I got to the door and another child said he wanted to put on his trainers
02:52:44 said he wanted to put on his trainers but I told him we didn't have time for that either initially as I was first at the door on the others were behind me I opened the door and as I tried to step out I saw that the communal area by the lifts was black with thick smoke I could
02:52:56 lifts was black with thick smoke I could see no lights there like really panicked and started to cry I closed the door Yosef spoke sternly and told me to stop crying and that we had to try again after a short while I opened the door
02:53:07 after a short while I opened the door the second time the communal area was still black with smoke but a firefighter had opened the stair door and I saw the light to the stairwell I saw the light through the smoke the smoke was
02:53:18 through the smoke the smoke was ceiling-to-floor the smoke was thick and smelt very strongly it smelt gassy my neighbor Ali was standing between the lifts we didn't speak my focus was on getting to the
02:53:29 speak my focus was on getting to the stairs and getting out Yosef was at the back he told me later that he was locking the door while carrying a child there was one male firefighter on our floor by the stairs I don't remember what he was carrying or wearing he told
02:53:41 what he was carrying or wearing he told us to leave but we didn't discuss anything else I then headed fast down the stairs to get out of the building I was at the front holding a child's hand and another child was just behind me there were lights in the stairwell and
02:53:52 there were lights in the stairwell and from what I can remember the air was normal and there was no smoke on the stairs on the stairs I saw Mohammad Rasool with an older relative he was helping the elderly gentleman down step by step I think this was about half way
02:54:05 by step I think this was about half way done when and we passed him also there was another neighbor Khadija Khalifa's husband in front of us I saw him after we passed Mohammad Reza he is also quite
02:54:16 we passed Mohammad Reza he is also quite an elderly gentleman who wasn't moving so fast and we passed him I think we passed some other men and women as we went down but can't remember them I apologized to Mohammed Raziel as we passed him as it
02:54:28 Mohammed Raziel as we passed him as it felt rude or wrong somehow to pass someone in an emergency I didn't say anything to catjs husband he looked frightened we were going really quickly down the stairs we were running down a
02:54:39 down the stairs we were running down a 125 we got the call from my friend and the police photo time if accurate indicates that we were exiting the building at 1:28 a.m. I saw some firefighters coming up the stairs as I
02:54:51 firefighters coming up the stairs as I was going down but I can't tell you how many I also saw firefighters enter the building as I was leaving the building mr. chairman that is all I think I need to read it aloud for Batum from MS of
02:55:04 to read it aloud for Batum from MS of Barney's witness statement into the record it was down in its entirety of course and be taking us into consideration in its entirety I think that the last statement I can read
02:55:15 that the last statement I can read before the lunch break is mr. use of kelud statement that's iws 473 I should I think have said that the reference up
02:55:28 I think have said that the reference up to miss of Barney's statement is by LWS 844 his is a iws 473 and stated the 23rd of May 2018 he was also a resident of
02:55:43 of May 2018 he was also a resident of flat 85 on the 11th floor and his statement is quite lengthy and the signature page is page 17 standing under
02:55:54 signature page is page 17 standing under a statement of truth on that page as I said I think before he is the husband of muna al albani whose witness statement we've just read from there are one or two further paragraphs from his statement that I should just read into
02:56:06 statement that I should just read into the record paragraphs 7 under the rubric fire safety which starts just above paragraph 5 he says on my floor there was a fire alarm detector or a smoke alarm detector on the ceiling in the
02:56:18 alarm detector on the ceiling in the middle of the floor outside the lifts I'm sure of this to my knowledge this detected heat and smoke however it cannot have been working on the night of the fire as it did not go off when the hallway was filled with smoke and then
02:56:31 hallway was filled with smoke and then at para 9 he says I believe there were two silver vents on opposite sides of the common hallway there was one next to my front door I believe these are supposed to be for sucking smoke or heat from the
02:56:43 for sucking smoke or heat from the corridors and out of the building I cannot remember ever noticing these work and never made any noises to suggest they were working if there had been working on the night of the fire then they would have been sucking smoke from the hallway which they clearly were
02:56:54 from the hallway which they clearly were not doing and then at paragraph 10 to 13 up to 14 he covers the advice on fire safety and he says in particular at
02:57:10 safety and he says in particular at paragraph 10 of that passage no one has ever explained to me what to do if there is a fire we were never given any advice on what to do in the case of a fire when we signed our tenancy agreement and moved into Grenville tower we were not
02:57:21 moved into Grenville tower we were not given a pack of papers on any leaflets on this subject we were also given no verbal advice on this I had never seen any notices in the hallway as to what to do in the case of a fire I have never seen such any such sign in any floors
02:57:33 seen such any such sign in any floors before the 14th of June 2017 my belief was that I would have to go out of the building for the safety of me and my family in the event of a fire even if someone had told me to stay in put I would leave and then he describes his
02:57:47 would leave and then he describes his experiences on the night of the fire itself from paragraphs 26 onwards and I would draw particular attention to his passage from paragraph
02:58:01 attention to his passage from paragraph 40 on page 11 dealing with his exit from his flat going across the lobby down the stairs and out of the building which runs down to paragraph 47 he says a pair
02:58:13 runs down to paragraph 47 he says a pair of 40 I chose the front door immediately after opening it smoke had already come into the flat from when I opened the front door which set off the smoke alarm in the corridor of my flat I think it only set off the one smoke alarm in the
02:58:24 only set off the one smoke alarm in the corridor but I'm not sure munna was panicking after we opened the front door and saw smoke the kids were also worried my daughter looked like she was about to start crying I was also panicking at the sight of the
02:58:35 I was also panicking at the sight of the smoke but I tried to hide my panic for the sake of my family I needed everyone to be focused on getting out of the tower
02:58:41 tower I spoke to muna and the kids to prepare them I told them to be calm to focus and not to panic or scream I said we needed to go straight to the stairs on the other side of the lobby and not
02:58:52 on the other side of the lobby and not to look back I asked muda to pass our youngest child to me and I told her to take the two kids to the stairs I would be able to run from behind with a child in my arms I opened the door the front
02:59:04 in my arms I opened the door the front door again about two to three minutes after opening it the first time the smoke in the hallway had become noticeably thicker than when I first opened the door smoke now cover the whole hallway halfway down to the floor
02:59:15 whole hallway halfway down to the floor and I could not see more than one or two meters into the smoke it had a strong smell as if it was sponge that was burning I can't remember if I could taste it I let muna and the kids go out
02:59:26 taste it I let muna and the kids go out of the flat first and I locked the door behind me using my key I turned around towards the stairs and saw a light coming through from that direction muna and the kids were already walking towards the stairs and I followed them
02:59:37 towards the stairs and I followed them and the light they walked straight to the stairs and I ran straight after them locking up it was very difficult to breathe until we got to the stairs I thought that if it was a long distance away we would not make it we didn't have
02:59:49 away we would not make it we didn't have masks or anything over our faces and I was holding a child with both hands I did not see mr. Aly or anyone else in the hallway at that point when I got to the stairs the door was held open by a
03:00:00 the stairs the door was held open by a farman with an oxygen mask on muna and the kids were already going down the stairs the fireman took off his mask and was shouting for people to get out hurry up there were people already coming down
03:00:11 up there were people already coming down the stairs from above I cannot remember who these people were as I was entirely focused on getting out the smoke made me scared but they did not want to show this to my family who were all in front of me they were shouting at them things
03:00:23 of me they were shouting at them things like go down go down don't stop carry on I was running down the stairs as fast as I could the stairs were clear I do not remember seeing any blockages of people and they were quite clean there was not much
03:00:35 were quite clean there was not much smoke in the stairwell there was only a thin layer of smoke on the ceiling of the stairs as the door to the hallway had been opened you could smell this however I was able to start breathing properly in the stairs there were people
03:00:47 properly in the stairs there were people already on their way down in front of us but I don't remember who they were muna told me later that she'd seen a man helping his father down in front of us but I do not remember what happened to them I was so focused on making sure my family got out that I do not remember
03:00:59 family got out that I do not remember who
03:00:59 who who we passed there were maybe people coming into the stairs from the floors below but the stairs were not much busier I did not see any firefighters as I was coming down the stairs other than
03:01:10 I was coming down the stairs other than the one we had seen holding the door open for us on our floor we had no problems running down the stairs shortly before arriving at the metonym floor I believe I saw two Farman in the corridors telling people on the floor to
03:01:23 corridors telling people on the floor to get out and we reached the mezzanine floor of the tower we came out of the stairwell onto the landing of the mezzanine floor and turned left to go down the last vital stairs before the exit there was not much smoke on the
03:01:34 exit there was not much smoke on the mezzanine floor maybe just a little bit that you could smell on the last flight of stairs there was a big glass window in the stairwell I saw that there were lots of people outside watching what was happening at this stage I started to feel safer as I could see the ground I
03:01:46 feel safer as I could see the ground I could see there were police officers and firefighters who were calling people to get out and directing which way the people had to go I felt much safer when I saw them
03:02:07 and that is I think all I need to read from run from mr. kelud statement and again like like all the other statements mr. chairman it will stand in its entirety he has evidence to the inquiry
03:02:18 entirety he has evidence to the inquiry and be taken into account accordingly that I think leaves me three witness statements left to read into the record today and I hope I'll be able to do this at some point before the close of evidence yes good thank you very much
03:02:31 evidence yes good thank you very much mr. general I just been handed a note I just want to oh I understand there's been a technical error with ambras Mendez witness statement that I do need
03:02:44 Mendez witness statement that I do need to correct it's an important matter as all these statements are important what I think I'm told this happened in my afraid I didn't notice it was that when I took you to mr. Mindi statement
03:02:58 I took you to mr. Mindi statement munna al-albani statement was shown on the screen instead I apologize to mr. Mindy and everybody else let me put mr. Ambrose Mindy's statement
03:03:09 let me put mr. Ambrose Mindy's statement back on the screen with the reference iws 1 0 7 5 I suspect this may be my fault as I'm not sure I read the reference into the record so can we just
03:03:21 reference into the record so can we just cover that iw s107 5
03:03:41 [Music]
03:03:50 we got that
03:04:24 no I don't think we could do this afternoon well I think it well mr. Mende is here and untilled has come specifically to hear his statement read into the record it's immensely important
03:04:35 into the record it's immensely important to him and to understand why it's not available so I'm afraid we can I would have to take that course much well you have raters I have no mr. Mindy has heard it read it's true that he's
03:04:48 heard it read it's true that he's obviously aware that other people have not been able to follow on the screen those parts that you've read if it's not possible to get it up now and I gather
03:05:00 possible to get it up now and I gather it's not then I'm not sure we can do anything other than offer to get it up at a later stage but I'd rather do it to say he's aware of what we're doing
03:05:11 say he's aware of what we're doing thanks mummy do it at five past two as soon as we come back it won't take very long will it be done fast to it yes but before we rise I think it's right that I should express my gratitude to
03:05:22 that I should express my gratitude to all those who've taken the time and trouble to make these statements it must have taken a lot of a lot of effort on their part yet and they should know that we're very grateful for the trouble
03:05:34 we're very grateful for the trouble they've taken and that the whole of those statements will be taken into account as part of the evidence before the inquiry mr. chairman that's been Natan I'm grateful yes let's see if we can overcome the technical hitch over
03:05:47 can overcome the technical hitch over the adjournment and we'll sit again at ten past - right right thank you thank you