Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Evidence from BSRs (7 November 2018 Pt 1 of 2)
00:07:32 you
00:18:33 you
00:19:19 you
00:25:41 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing I'm sorry we've kept you waiting a few minutes I'm afraid there are one or two administrative matters we had to sort out but we're ready to start now so
00:25:53 sort out but we're ready to start now so yes mister Robert good morning mr. chairman before I call our first witness can I make just a short announcement in relation to the witness order for today
00:26:04 relation to the witness order for today we were scheduled to have a witness in the afternoon Rebecca Ross she is unfortunately unavailable today and so once we've dealt with the witness this
00:26:15 once we've dealt with the witness this morning we will use the rest of the time to read statements into the record yes sir oh thank you mr. chairman may I now call Elizabeth sub yes check yes thank
00:26:29 call Elizabeth sub yes check yes thank you very much
00:26:53 [Music]
00:27:07 thank you very much yes thank you sir
00:27:18 thank you very much yes thank you sir good morning can you give the inquiry your full name please mrs. Elizabeth abuse took mrs. Saab yes check thank you for coming to give evidence to the
00:27:31 for coming to give evidence to the inquiry today your help is very much appreciated my questions today are going to focus on the night of the fire itself and we all understand that that can be
00:27:43 and we all understand that that can be difficult to ask you to go back and try and relive the events of that night and so what I would ask is that if at any time you need a break please just let me know and we will stop
00:27:55 please just let me know and we will stop I'm going to try hopefully to keep my questions short and simple if at any time I ask you a question that you don't understand please do tell me and I'll put it in a different way for you the
00:28:09 put it in a different way for you the first thing that we need to do is to formally put your statement into the record could we have please iws four zeros one one zero five page one what
00:28:20 zeros one one zero five page one what you can see on the screen that's on the witness desk mrs. OBS check is the first page of your statement to this inquiry if you want a paper version there's a bundle on the
00:28:31 paper version there's a bundle on the desk in front of you what we need now to do is just go to page seven of the statement please
00:28:41 this is the last page of the statement and it's got a segment of truth that reads I believe that the facts stated in his statement are true and then it's dated the 26th of September 2018
00:28:54 dated the 26th of September 2018 and carries a signature can you confirm that that's your signature it is and have you had a chance to read the statement recently yes and are the
00:29:05 statement recently yes and are the contents of the statement true true so there are no exhibits put into the records I figure if we go back to the first page please can I just begin by
00:29:21 first page please can I just begin by asking you some background questions in June 2017 you were living in flat 43 on the seventh floor of Grenville towers that's wrecked and how long by that time
00:29:33 that's wrecked and how long by that time had you lived in Granville Tower since 1985 so it's 32 years and is it right that flat 43 was a two-bedroom flat
00:29:45 that flat 43 was a two-bedroom flat that's correct and in June 2017 who was living in that flat with you my husband and my daughter
00:29:59 I want now to show you an image mr. chairman it's an image one of the ones that we've shown to other witnesses before and so it's not although it's a
00:30:10 before and so it's not although it's a mr. so BS check it's a photograph taken of the inside of the tower after the fire but it's in no way distressing so but could I have please up on screen I in q93 please if I explain mr. subject
00:30:27 in q93 please if I explain mr. subject this is a photograph and it was taken by one of the inquiries experts and it's of a sign that was by the lifts on floor three do you remember seeing a sign like
00:30:38 three do you remember seeing a sign like this on your floor yes I have by the lift only do you remember seeing it on
00:30:49 lift only do you remember seeing it on any other floors on the ground floor also did you ever take a chance to read that sign
00:30:58 that sign yes sir and what did you understand what information did you get from the sign in case of fire just stay in your flat
00:31:09 case of fire just stay in your flat until somebody tells you or Fire Brigade otherwise and aside from this notice were you aware or were you given any
00:31:22 were you aware or were you given any information by any organization or individual as to what you should do if there was a fire in the tower not really and so in June 2017 what was your
00:31:36 and so in June 2017 what was your understanding of what you should do if there was a fire in the tower my understanding are just common sense and
00:31:51 an instinct what can I come back to that surely when I asked you about the night itself how many could I just ask you some questions
00:32:03 many could I just ask you some questions just about the layout of your flat and I'd like to show you a plan please can we have em et three zeros one two five nine three page twelve please if I could
00:32:16 nine three page twelve please if I could explain mrs. Sabich this is a plan of the layout of the fourth floor shows the various flats but it's the same layout as you go up the tower so it would be
00:32:27 as you go up the tower so it would be the same layout for your floor floor seven and if we could expand just flat three so this would be the layout of
00:32:43 three so this would be the layout of your flat and we can see the two bedrooms
00:32:46 bedrooms can you confirm which bedroom was your bedroom and which one was your daughter's my bedroom it was the first one the second next to lunch it was my
00:33:00 one the second next to lunch it was my daughter's 13 so you had the bedroom closest to flat 2 your daughter had the bedroom closest to the lounge that's Eric did you have any smoke
00:33:13 that's Eric did you have any smoke alarms in your flat yes we did you under hall so one in the hall with just one in the home just one in the hall and you
00:33:25 the home just one in the hall and you know if that smoke alarm was working in June 2000 it was it was working
00:33:35 could I take you to your statement please and let's look at page two of the statement in paragraph five you're here
00:33:49 statement in paragraph five you're here discussing the refurbishment and specifically the windows and you say at the second half of the statement of ivory of the paragraphs I read that out
00:34:00 ivory of the paragraphs I read that out when I saw the end result the window looked nice and pretty there were when they were putting on the installation and cladding I could see that was very badly done there were gaps everywhere but they just covered up the bad
00:34:11 but they just covered up the bad workmanship everything was plastic you could put your finger inside the gaps between the cladding even after they had finished especially at the corners by the kitchen window there was an even
00:34:22 the kitchen window there was an even bigger back gap and they simply covered it with black duct tape so you refer there to gaps after the refurbishment
00:34:33 there to gaps after the refurbishment have been completed were there visible gaps in your windows
00:34:39 yes they were if we go back to the plan please m ET three zeros one two five
00:34:50 please m ET three zeros one two five nine three page twelve
00:35:06 thank you
00:35:10 you can see if you look at the blue lines that are on that base they denote the windows and you've got a window in each bedroom facing south two windows in
00:35:21 each bedroom facing south two windows in the lounge facing south and then windows facing west in the again in the lounge and also in the kitchen which windows
00:35:33 and also in the kitchen which windows had gaps in them after the refurbishment have finished we had the problem with the lunch were one window which is next
00:35:46 the lunch were one window which is next to the kitchen let's call it middle window and we had problem also in our
00:35:57 window and we had problem also in our bedroom with the window which later on the claim and the fixed sets so if we take you to June 2017 you said that that
00:36:11 take you to June 2017 you said that that something had been fixed in your bedroom window but were there still gaps in any windows there were gaps in the cladding outside and especially like in the
00:36:23 outside and especially like in the kitchen corner well can I come back to the cladding band yes if we look you you you say that you didn't think very much
00:36:34 you say that you didn't think very much of the work that was done on the windows did you experience any problems with the windows as a result of the work that was done later on when they fixed it
00:36:46 done later on when they fixed it properly I had no problems whatsoever did you have any problem with drafts at all at any time no
00:36:58 you'd say there were gaps in the cladding can I try and help you with that by just showing you a photograph please and again mr. chairman it's it's a photograph was shown a witness already
00:37:09 a photograph was shown a witness already but for those who will find any images of themselves distressing this may be the moment to look away it's B la are
00:37:19 seven zeros three and then page 47 of that document
00:37:49 thank you can we expand the top photograph there please work thank you this is I hope to help you a
00:38:00 thank you this is I hope to help you a little bit mrs. sub yes check but it's it's not going to be a photograph of necessary of the window from your flat but it's of a window and it shows the exterior and the cladding does that help
00:38:11 exterior and the cladding does that help you to show us where there were gaps in the cladding yes there was a big gap covered by the black duct tape by the
00:38:23 covered by the black duct tape by the end of the window the smaller part would it if you don't understand which could you stand up and just point it out on on there so on the image it sits by the
00:38:41 there so on the image it sits by the smaller window the the part of the cladding running flat out from the window and that was outside which window did you of which of your windows feature in at all and was that in your statement
00:38:55 in at all and was that in your statement you say that you could put your finger inside the gaps was was that the gap that you could put your finger inside that's correct and I think you signaled
00:39:08 that's correct and I think you signaled that it was your small finger that you could put in yes it was and how was that fixed it wasn't I could still see it the
00:39:21 fixed it wasn't I could still see it the gap
00:39:22 gap you mentioned the use of black duct tape that's right so did someone come put black duct tape over the gap and then go away there were kind of elevators when
00:39:35 away there were kind of elevators when they were putting the cloud cladding outside so they were like traveling up and just masking whatever it had to be done and was when in June 2017 was the
00:39:50 done and was when in June 2017 was the black duct tape still there yes until the night of the fire thank you could I take you now please to the night of the fire itself and if we
00:40:06 the night of the fire itself and if we go please page two of your statement in your statement you explained that on
00:40:17 your statement you explained that on that night you couldn't sleep properly and so you were moving around the flat but do you remember if your bedroom window was open it was open it was
00:40:28 window was open it was open it was always open all year round and you tell us that your daughter arrived back at around half past twelve that's correct how do you estimate that time I just
00:40:42 how do you estimate that time I just look at the clock and did you speak to your daughter when she got back home that oh yes yes because the reason I
00:40:53 that oh yes yes because the reason I asked about time was she your daughter flan Tina has made a statement of inquiry and she thought she says that it was about 12:15 when she actually got into bed and do you think it's possible
00:41:04 into bed and do you think it's possible that she may have arrived back a little earlier
00:41:11 probably I'm sorry I don't remember exact time but it was around half past twelve and do you have a recollection of looking at the time when she got back I
00:41:24 looking at the time when she got back I kind of got looked but he's just very foggy at the moment I'm not sure if it's different 5-10 minutes either way I
00:41:36 different 5-10 minutes either way I think we all appreciate estimating time as it's difficult but can I draw your attention if we look at paragraph six and seven if we could expand that please
00:41:50 and seven if we could expand that please and just draw your attention to the last line of your paragraph six very soon afterwards I could hear the ventilation shaft downstairs beginning to work so my
00:42:01 shaft downstairs beginning to work so my first question is what what do you mean by downstairs it means about the main door downstairs entrance to the building
00:42:13 door downstairs entrance to the building well can I show you please a photograph then can we have se a five zero three
00:42:24 then can we have se a five zero three nine four please
00:42:31 and this is subject race of the photograph that I think was taken at about the time of the refurbishment and we can see the lobby entrance with the green cover and if we slightly could you
00:42:45 green cover and if we slightly could you might be able to see it if not we can expand it for you but can you see there's a there's to be a grill above at the just below the the or just above where it says Granville Tower does that
00:42:58 where it says Granville Tower does that help you to tell us what you meant by downstairs that's exactly what it was so if the ventilation shaft about that
00:43:10 so if the ventilation shaft about that so Ralph if you could just put your red dot on that just on the grills that are above there so that's what you're indicating is it that's a so much and so
00:43:22 indicating is it that's a so much and so for the record mr. Soviet Shack is identifying on the picture looks like two grills that are in the image immediately above the words Granville Tower when did you learn that this was a
00:43:37 Tower when did you learn that this was a when did you learn that it was a ventilation shaft I was coming home and
00:43:49 ventilation shaft I was coming home and I could hate like juvenal's loud and I've seen on the side one of the managers and I asked him what is that
00:44:02 managers and I asked him what is that sound about and he said that there are checking the ventilation shaft if it's working properly now this was during the
00:44:15 working properly now this was during the refurbishment can you remember what year it was
00:44:19 it was that was 2016
00:44:26 and you say you spoke to a manager and you just confirm web the name of that manager I can't I don't know his name there was quite a few managers in there
00:44:40 there was quite a few managers in there on the site in your statement and I'll take you to the paragraph if you want you refer to someone called Simon that's correct
00:44:47 correct what was that the person it wasn't that person and do you know who which company the person you spoke to worked for rydym
00:45:05 so this manager tells you that they're checking to see if the ventilation shaft is working properly and did the person X was it was it a male person yes it was
00:45:19 was it was it a male person yes it was and did he tell you what the system was supposed before he said that this is the ventilation shaft that they are checking
00:45:30 ventilation shaft that they are checking but did he tell you if he described to the shaft did he tell you how far it ran in the building no and did he tell you what what job it was supposed to be
00:45:41 what what job it was supposed to be doing no
00:45:48 and did you what did you think it was there for for the ventilation shaft it means that you circulate of the
00:45:59 means that you circulate of the uncirculated we're inside the building and does that mean on all floors no because in the lift lobby downstairs on
00:46:13 because in the lift lobby downstairs on the ground floor there was another ventilation shaft which quite often automatically was opening and closing
00:46:26 automatically was opening and closing and was making enemies can I come so I don't know what the connection it was between the two ventilation shafts can I come back to
00:46:39 ventilation shafts can I come back to that in a moment if I may
00:46:52 so focusing on on this one that you described it as a a Hoover noise and was
00:47:04 described it as a a Hoover noise and was that the same noise that you heard on the night of the fire that's correct and between those two occasions 2016 when you're coming home and they're testing
00:47:15 you're coming home and they're testing and the night of the fire had you heard that noise on any other occasion
00:47:23 so after the refurbishment have been completed when you were on a normal day coming back and forth to your home and using that front entrance did you ever
00:47:34 using that front entrance did you ever hear a noise from the the grills that we see above the we're going for tower no
00:47:47 and just so that we can be clear that you've described the noise as a Hoover noise can you give us going back to the
00:47:59 noise can you give us going back to the time when you first heard it so it's during the refurbishment how far away were you from the entrance when you first heard the noise I was just coming
00:48:10 first heard the noise I was just coming around the corner the walkway which you can see it now on the picture it was closed so we have to go around the tower
00:48:27 closed so we have to go around the tower to the main entrance by the school academy
00:48:36 and how loud was it it was quite loud than I mean if you were using a Hoover
00:48:49 than I mean if you were using a Hoover yes you maximum power and was it the same as a Hoover on maximum attack power yes it was quite clear out on the night
00:49:00 yes it was quite clear out on the night itself so you've got two occasions obviously during the refurbishment you're hearing it when you're at the front entrance on the night itself that
00:49:13 front entrance on the night itself that you you hear the same sound when you're on the seventh floor was there any difference between the volume of the sound you heard on the first occasion and the sound that you were hearing on
00:49:24 and the sound that you were hearing on the night of the fire obviously I was in the flat so the volume was slightly down it wasn't that very loud as when I before standing next to the dome and how
00:49:41 before standing next to the dome and how sure are you that what you heard on the night of the fire was the same sound that you'd heard on that earlier Akane right sure and at the time that you heard the sound on the night of the fire
00:49:53 heard the sound on the night of the fire did you look out of your window yes I did and when you looked out did you notice anything happening outside yes then when my daughter arrived both of us
00:50:05 then when my daughter arrived both of us actually
00:50:05 actually we looked through the window and because my daughter is taller so she could see more than me and she seen it coming
00:50:17 more than me and she seen it coming first white smoke and minutes later a black smoke and did you but did you see the smoke at the same time that you
00:50:28 the smoke at the same time that you heard this sound or did you hear the sound I sanded before yes I heard before the sound of yes I think you told us that when you heard the sound you looked out of the window that's correct
00:50:40 out of the window that's correct and when you looked out did you see anything going on outside at that point just we've I've seen the word smoke but I
00:50:48 I it open the front door and I could smell kind of it was chemical smell but there
00:51:01 kind of it was chemical smell but there was no smoke coming but I knew that there is straightaway I knew that there is a fire in the building can I come back to that but before I want to just
00:51:13 back to that but before I want to just show you before we move on to the more detail of the night itself just an image about just to pick up your point that you said that there was another vent on
00:51:24 you said that there was another vent on the ground floor so can I show you another image please and mr. chairman this is a CCTV image taken on the night itself but again it's not a distressing
00:51:38 itself but again it's not a distressing image and it's one that we've I think shown to a witness before could we have please iron q6 0-62 please
00:51:49 [Music]
00:51:54 sorry no I've given the wrong reference can I have an q500 for please
00:52:12 it may be that you recognize the people who are in that picture because they're their fellow residents of the tower but just to explain it's an image taken on the night itself
00:52:23 the night itself mr. Soviet attack but my reason for showing it to you is because it just shows that the lobby area so this is what you would come in to once you've gone through the front entrance now you described that when you use the
00:52:38 now you described that when you use the front entrance you would hear there would be another ventilation system there does that help you to tell us where that was just was in the lift lobby so was that in the area beyond
00:52:49 lobby so was that in the area beyond that open doors correct and did you know what that was for because the space was
00:53:01 what that was for because the space was closed completely had no windows so the ventilation shaft was flowing there inside it's like regulating and and that's inside the area of the lift lobby
00:53:13 that's inside the area of the lift lobby that's correct and what sound did that make you just make the sound like you opened the shutters up and down was it a loud sound
00:53:26 shutters up and down was it a loud sound of quiet I could hear it quite clearly on the night of the fight self had you had you been out at all that day on the 13th of June yes sir and when you came
00:53:40 13th of June yes sir and when you came back home did you use the lifts oh yes and so you would have gone through the and it's mrs. Alves that's holding the door open but you would have gone through that door wouldn't you together
00:53:52 through that door wouldn't you together and you remember hearing that ventilation system when you were waiting for the ground floor lifts from time to time not all the time and what about on that night itself no I haven't and so
00:54:08 that night itself no I haven't and so just so that I can be clear is it that no you did not hear it because there was no sound or that you can't remember hearing some when I was waiting for the lift I didn't
00:54:20 when I was waiting for the lift I didn't hear the ventilation that it was on and what time did you can you remember what time you got back home that night it was
00:54:32 time you got back home that night it was a night it was seemed afternoon late afternoon and then evening the night I was at home so taking five I mean late
00:54:44 was at home so taking five I mean late afternoon is it can you give us a time that you might have got back home between four or five finger after thank you let's go back then to the night
00:55:00 you let's go back then to the night itself into the the subsequent events that you started describing to us and if I take you please to page four of your statement and we'll look at paragraphs
00:55:12 14 and 15 so just to get get the
00:55:23 14 and 15 so just to get get the sequence right for you mrs. subjects don't you've told us about the ventilation shaft and this is the part of your statement where you talk about going to the front door and you say that
00:55:34 going to the front door and you say that you decided to have a look out of your front door do you remember actually going out into the communal area yes yes I went outside
00:55:45 the communal area yes yes I went outside and was there lighting in the communal area see it was and was that usual that you would always have a light on in the communal area yes and what you tell us
00:55:57 communal area yes and what you tell us is that you could smell smoke could you see any smoke I haven't seen any smoke I could smell it and were you able to tell where that smell was coming from it
00:56:10 tell where that smell was coming from it was difficult to say I wasn't sure it was upstairs or downstairs how far did you go out from your front door before you began to smell it oh just when you
00:56:22 you began to smell it oh just when you open the front door you could smell it you described it in your statement as an irritating kind of choking smell that's cool did it have any physical effect on you at that time
00:56:34 any physical effect on you at that time I had to cover my mouth wouldn't work on me the dance thirst when we evacuate it can I take you to I'll take you back to
00:56:45 can I take you to I'll take you back to that debt but this is this is your first time when you opened the door you've smelled irritating smoke yes did it have enough do you remember it having an effect on you at that time not really I just closed the door and went
00:56:58 really I just closed the door and went inside and talked to my daughter and then I went again and open the front door and then when I saw my neighbor
00:57:11 door and then when I saw my neighbor Betty on the landing if we go to that second occasion that you've opened your front door and you and you meet your neighbor and that's Betty Kasota a isn't
00:57:24 neighbor and that's Betty Kasota a isn't it on that second occasion do you remember seeing smoke on the landing then on the communal area not heavy smoke but you could see that it was like
00:57:36 smoke but you could see that it was like coming slightly foggy and could you tell where the smoke was coming from no and
00:57:47 where the smoke was coming from no and what could you smell at that time again that chemical smoke and you say it's a chemical smell the smell is there anything that you can compare it to it
00:58:04 anything that you can compare it to it was just like kind of irritating itchy choking smell at that time then this is the second time you've gone out and
00:58:15 the second time you've gone out and you've met Betty um what was the temperature like in the communal area warm as usual and you say warm as usual was that something that you'd noticed
00:58:26 was that something that you'd noticed about the temperature in the in the communal area no it was always because it's closed space so it's always warm in there
00:58:37 there in the temperature I didn't feel that it rised it in normal times when you're coming back and forth to the flat 43 did
00:58:48 coming back and forth to the flat 43 did you ever face a sensor or find the temperature in the communal area to be uncomfortable it was kind of stuffy and
00:59:01 uncomfortable it was kind of stuffy and what was that always the case or weather particularly times of year when it was kind of stuffing yeah usually every day
00:59:15 you've gone out into the communal area twice now on either occasion do you remember hearing the sound of any alarms
00:59:27 remember hearing the sound of any alarms from anywhere else what you also tell us is your statement is the Florentina your
00:59:39 is your statement is the Florentina your daughter goes to Betty's flat and then comes back into your home and then a decision is made to leave and this is taking you back to that notice that we looked at a while ago my question is
00:59:50 looked at a while ago my question is this what was it that made you decide to leave that's what my daughter said we have to leave she was insisted that we have to leave now and did that
01:00:03 have to leave now and did that notice that we looked at and you told us that you'd read it which told you to stay in your flat did that come into your thinking at all no not at all
01:00:13 you also explained that your husband Michael had by now woken up and then and before you left the flat you closed the windows and you closed the internal
01:00:25 windows and you closed the internal doors so our bedrooms so you left did you leave the sitting-room and kitchen door open yes with it was there a we thought that we'll be
01:00:38 was there a we thought that we'll be back in 10 minutes was there any reason you shut the windows yes we didn't know exactly what the fire was coming from so we just shut
01:00:50 the fire was coming from so we just shut the windows just in case in case oh so the the fire won't be won't penetrate our our bedrooms our flat was it fire
01:01:06 our our bedrooms our flat was it fire you were worried about penetrating or smoke we're at the fire
01:01:14 when you went out of the flat did the front door closed behind you am i from your front door yes was it a door that closed automatically
01:01:26 was it a door that closed automatically no you we could still leave it open if we if you wanted so do you can you remember whether the door had a closing mechanism on it that would make it close
01:01:38 mechanism on it that would make it close automatically no no it didn't did it ever have such a mechanism probably is you say probably I mean do you remember
01:01:50 you say probably I mean do you remember whether anything happened to the mechanism yes it was removed when was it removed by the person who put it the door by the person who was putting the
01:02:03 door by the person who was putting the new door inside let's break that down a little bit when was when was when did you get a new door on flat 43 remember exactly what
01:02:15 door on flat 43 remember exactly what yeah it was was it during the refurbish oh no that was done before that and you say the person who fitted the door removed the mechanism yes did you actually see that
01:02:27 mechanism yes did you actually see that happen eh yes sir and did you ask why that was necessary it was just for us for to have a easy access to open the door and sometimes
01:02:40 access to open the door and sometimes when when I was coming home with shopping I had difficulties to open the door because they were closing on me all the time so who decided that that should
01:02:53 the time so who decided that that should be removed well the man decided that to make it easy he will remove it and had you told him I have a problem with this door because it shuts yes and then he offered to that's right did the person
01:03:06 offered to that's right did the person who who removed it it give you any explanation of what that mechanism was for I knew that it was just to keep it safe from fire were you happy that it
01:03:20 safe from fire were you happy that it was removed actually I was happy yes because we still could close the door and it was your door the sort that
01:03:32 door and it was your door the sort that if it was shut if you went out and shut the door behind you yes did it need to be locked or would it would it be locked automatically it it was locked
01:03:43 automatically it it was locked automatically you need the key to open it so someone's sending us I couldn't just push it open again no it wouldn't before you left your flats I'm taking you back to the night again
01:03:54 you back to the night again do you remember anybody banging on your front door at all before you left not only I don't know and we're not sorry God my daughter went when she went
01:04:05 sorry God my daughter went when she went outside to Betty's flat to see it because but betty was saying come and see what is going on outside when the fire was on her side then my daughter
01:04:17 fire was on her side then my daughter came out and she start banging or on our night at all and which flat was that that she that was flat 42 and when you
01:04:28 that she that was flat 42 and when you left the flat that night do you remember seeing a firefighter in my communal area at all I haven't if I take you back so
01:04:40 at all I haven't if I take you back so you're stating just forward and yours down to page five please and we just look at the land paragraph 19
01:04:53 you say on landing on our way our neighbors opposite we're outside their flat can you just which flat are you referring to here 46
01:05:07 what'd you say at this point and this is now that you're getting ready to leave completely is that when you left you describe the smoke at this point as more
01:05:18 describe the smoke at this point as more irritating did the smoke have any effect on you at that time yes that was on the staircase which it was small power of a powering that I have to cover my mouth
01:05:31 powering that I have to cover my mouth and nose and did you have to do that when once you got into the stairwell itself yes before we take you to the
01:05:43 itself yes before we take you to the stairwell could I just show you two images and these again mr. chairman are photographs we've shown previous witnesses there the floor six photographs can I have side-by-side please be la
01:05:56 can I have side-by-side please be la four zeros two five one four and B la four zero two five one three
01:06:03 mrs. sabi extract just to explain two photographs taken by one of the inquiries experts there after the fire but there are floor six but if we look
01:06:16 but there are floor six but if we look at I think the photograph on the left as we look at it is two five one four and it shows it's looking in the direction
01:06:30 it shows it's looking in the direction of flats one two and three so towards the north side of the building two five one three looks in the opposite direction four flats four five and six it was a South Side so someone getting
01:06:43 it was a South Side so someone getting out of the lift would need to turn right if this was on your floor they turn right to get to your flat what we can see is in the image on the left you've got a grill at least one grill on and
01:06:55 got a grill at least one grill on and there's two spaces to you at the bottom of the far wall and then on the other side there at the top do you remember seeing those kind of those vents on your glove and did you
01:07:08 those vents on your glove and did you know what they were for apparently they're supposed to be the ventilation shafts but I never heard them working
01:07:20 when you say you you never heard them working was that at any point at all in any point at all and specifically on the
01:07:31 any point at all and specifically on the night did you hear them no I haven't I just want you to clear up something for me because Florentina has made a statement as you know to the inquiry she
01:07:42 statement as you know to the inquiry she said that you you told her that you'd noticed that the air vents on the right hand side by our door had switched on and you'd never heard this before so
01:07:53 and you'd never heard this before so that could be that could be that could mean that it's those vents was that what you were referring to no I was referring
01:08:04 you were referring to no I was referring to the one outside the building by the main doors that I heard the ventilation in that probably she assumed that I was talking about the ventilation inside and
01:08:21 talking about the ventilation inside and you're quite clear you've never heard a single sound coming out of those grills or all those no when you left for the stairwell that night did said there's
01:08:35 stairwell that night did said there's yourself
01:08:36 yourself there's florentine and there's your husband did you all leave together yes with it I came down as first my daughter followed me and on the auntie does my husband appreciate he's he's coming last
01:08:52 husband appreciate he's he's coming last which there's a door that leads into the stairwell isn't there that's if you went first do you remember having to open the door yes I did have to open it
01:09:03 door yes I did have to open it and do you remember if it closed behind your husband Michael oh yes yes he did and as far as you can remember how often
01:09:14 and as far as you can remember how often did you use the stairs anyway no not so many times but usually the door for to
01:09:27 many times but usually the door for to the staircase was closed and it's just automatically if anybody was coming or going like like the postman
01:09:38 going like like the postman it was just shutting um you know by itself afterwards so on the night of by June 2013 the door on floor tear a floor
01:09:50 June 2013 the door on floor tear a floor seven just was working fine was it yes in your statement you described there being some smoke on the stairs on the stairwell is yes how far were when you
01:10:01 stairwell is yes how far were when you first got into the stairwell from your floor how far were you able to see I could see it quite enough yes it wasn't very heavy smoke it was just like
01:10:14 very heavy smoke it was just like slightly foggy but I could still see it clearly was there less smoke in the stairwell when you got into it compared to the lot the communal area was more on
01:10:26 to the lot the communal area was more on the stairwell on the staircase than are on the in the lobby so you've described both conditioners as foggy so was it was there more fog in the stairwell that's
01:10:38 there more fog in the stairwell that's right yes and were the lights on in the stairwell yes it when you got into the stairwell so you've left floor seven but
01:10:49 stairwell so you've left floor seven but you're you're on the stairwell at floor seven did you notice any change in temperature between the communal area and the stairwell I don't remember I think it was the same did you feel any
01:11:02 think it was the same did you feel any movement of air on your face at all where to work I mean downstairs yes I could I could feel it the more air coming did you hear the sound of a fan
01:11:15 coming did you hear the sound of a fan or anything like that no what color was the smoke that you saw white could you tell where it was coming from
01:11:24 from no again you've described the smoke as having a chemical smell was it the same smell as you'd noticed earlier when
01:11:36 smell as you'd noticed earlier when you'd opened your front door
01:11:39 it was the same bad more intense smell on the stairway you and just I should
01:11:56 on the stairway you and just I should have asked you this earlier you described the the smoke in the stairwell as being white in color what color was the smoke that you noticed in the communal area by the lifts in the lobby
01:12:09 communal area by the lifts in the lobby yeah it was it was the same family white you've described the smell in the stairwell of the smokers being more intense didn't have any effect on you
01:12:21 intense didn't have any effect on you well I had to cover it as I said before my nose and and my mouth before I will start coughing you then make your way
01:12:36 start coughing you then make your way down the stairs did this did the smell change at all as you went downstairs yes he did towards the ground floor towards
01:12:49 he did towards the ground floor towards the stairs staircase downstairs on the first floor we yes II it was more
01:13:00 first floor we yes II it was more clearly Moakley and so did the smell get less intense yes and you say was it was
01:13:11 less intense yes and you say was it was clearer air so what happened to the smoke conditions as you went down sorry you just said as you went down it became clearer so what were the smoke
01:13:22 clearer so what were the smoke conditions like as you went down it was better it was better you could see better and the smell wasn't overpowering
01:13:33 you tell us in your statement that on the way down you passed a lady who is walking slowly did you have any difficulty getting past her on this no I haven't one last point what what you
01:13:50 haven't one last point what what you also said you told us in your state how you left the tower but that your daughter Florentina stayed behind and was that was directing people can I just show you an image please again for that
01:14:02 show you an image please again for that those who are either watching or in in the hearing room this is a CCTV still taken on the night itself but it doesn't show anything distressing could we have please I in queue for 35 if we see if
01:14:21 please I in queue for 35 if we see if you see in the far right corner on the image there's a young woman in a dressing gown is that Florentina your dad's my daughter Thank You mr. Saab yes check and those are all the questions
01:14:33 check and those are all the questions I've got for you mr. chairman could I would have asked for a break in any event but can we have the usual break so that I can use the time also to see if there's any slightly longer break at
01:14:47 there's any slightly longer break at this stage yes please yes well some of you will have a break now probably you'd quite like breaking any event I'm going to ask you in a minute to go in the air
01:14:59 to ask you in a minute to go in the air shut up please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and we'll come back at 20 past 11:00 and we'll see then whether there any more questions for you thank you
01:15:14 any more questions for you thank you very much thank you guys the action okay
01:15:31 well mr. robot will say 20 past and give you plenty of time to sort out your questions thank you thank you very much 21st
01:27:11 you
01:29:06 yes mr. Robert my I take it why don't you test it there are yes we off the witness to come back
01:29:34 and this is severe shock I think there are one or two questions together mr. Robert Kaname yes mr. Allen Thank You mr. chairman so vs check thank
01:29:45 Thank You mr. chairman so vs check thank you for coming back just one small point remember I just before we have the break I showed you a CCTV still in which you identified your daughter Florentina and
01:29:56 identified your daughter Florentina and just so that we can be absolutely clear obviously there are two women showing in that image the Florentines the one who's not wearing the headscarf isn't she yes three tonight he's the one who is
01:30:07 three tonight he's the one who is standing by the staircase in fact that person has identified herself already anyway
01:30:15 anyway can I just take you back place to this noise that you heard during the refurbishment I want to show an image which was taken during the refurbishment
01:30:28 which was taken during the refurbishment we have please be la 4 zeros 4 5 3 1 please I showed you a photograph which
01:30:44 please I showed you a photograph which showed us the the main front entrance and and the green canopy that we can see in there I'm grateful to the representative of PSB who put in this smoke extraction system for correcting
01:30:57 smoke extraction system for correcting me on this but the the image that I showed you is not vents for a ventilation shaft but if you see on there can you see that there's some scaffolding above the green canopy and
01:31:08 scaffolding above the green canopy and then we could see some windows and above can you see a gril there where the red dot is now in helpfully pointed out if
01:31:21 dot is now in helpfully pointed out if that's the extractor for the ventilation system so if I take with that x-ray first I take you back to that time when during the refurbishment you're hearing this noise do you remember that being
01:31:34 this noise do you remember that being drawn to your attention the noise I I thought that it is from
01:31:44 the ventilation about the door but I could be mistaken and maybe it was that one but what are you clearing your mind that it was a sound that was coming from
01:31:55 that it was a sound that was coming from that you heard as from outside that's right on that side exactly yes and if I
01:32:09 right on that side exactly yes and if I just said we're absolutely clear about your evidence you heard that sound when you were outside the building yes and you heard it you and you also heard a
01:32:21 you heard it you and you also heard a sound from a ventilation system when you were in the ground floor by the lift Lobby is that right yes from time to time it is like as I
01:32:32 yes from time to time it is like as I said because there was closed space there was no windows so they put it like ventilation and a grid when it was opening and shouting and shouting you could you could hear the noise it was
01:32:44 could you could hear the noise it was made and did you actually see it open and shutting yes and was it was it a grill in the wall or was it above you when you were by the list in the wall I mean under one but what you never heard
01:32:59 mean under one but what you never heard was the sound of a system operating on your floor no and you never heard it on that certainly on the night of the fire definitely not can I just now take you
01:33:12 definitely not can I just now take you please to page four of your statements we look at paragraph 13
01:33:25 in this part of your your statements give it some context missus wh attack you're speaking about the statements you've given to the police and you pointed out some corrections and you
01:33:37 pointed out some corrections and you refer there to a meeting in the police state when you talk about a meeting which you attended at which someone called Simon was present and what what you say is that this is a mix-up not
01:33:51 you say is that this is a mix-up not quite correct I did know Simon and did know that he was a manager of the project from for Ryden he later got another job and left but whilst he was there he was one of the more helpful people and would actually explain things
01:34:02 people and would actually explain things to us he was the one who told me that they were testing the ventilation system that I had heard this is how I knew the sound and recognized it but the explanation was not at the showroom meeting so do you remember Simon being
01:34:20 meeting so do you remember Simon being the person who explained the ventilation system to you no it was the another manager who told me what was happening that they're checking the ventilation system but then a few days later when
01:34:35 system but then a few days later when I've seen Simon the manager one of the managers I mention it and he said that yes the head that they have been checking the ventilation system and did
01:34:48 checking the ventilation system and did you
01:34:49 you sorry Thank You Felicia that's okay did he tell you anything else about the ventilation system no not really no so just so we're clear well you weren't given an explanation at a public meeting
01:35:02 given an explanation at a public meeting no the public meeting it was in the showroom one of the floods that it was done already for residents to see what
01:35:13 done already for residents to see what to expect after after the refurbishment then you windows were the new central and hot water system would be can I take
01:35:29 and hot water system would be can I take you now back to page - and paragraph five do you may remember to remember I was asking you questions about your the problems you noticed him in the cladding one of the things you
01:35:41 in the cladding one of the things you mentioned was that the workmen used a an elevator on the outside of the building [Music]
01:35:48 [Music] is it right that they didn't have scaffolding going all the way up the building they just used an elevator that's correct and you've refer in this
01:35:59 that's correct and you've refer in this statement to the use of black duct tape did you see someone covering the gap that you noticed with black duct tape or did you just see the duct tape there I
01:36:11 did you just see the duct tape there I just seen it I haven't seen anybody put in it
01:36:15 in it I just seen it afterwards that it was covered and once it you saw it covered did you open your kitchen window and have a look at it
01:36:26 have a look at it oh yes and did anybody explain to you why this this problem was being fixed in this way nobody did you ever raise it
01:36:39 this way nobody did you ever raise it with anyone nobody wanted to talk to us but did you actually does that mean that you actually went and raised it with someone and they didn't want to talk to you or you just didn't feel able to
01:36:51 you or you just didn't feel able to raise himself I didn't know whom to approach to say it because the TMO they
01:37:04 approach to say it because the TMO they were just like ignoring us and whatever work should be done it was taken ages
01:37:15 work should be done it was taken ages after reporting
01:37:21 those are all questions additional questions I have for you mrs. Shelby air show just got one last question to put to you and it's this and aside from what
01:37:32 to you and it's this and aside from what you've told the inquiring your witness statement and the answers that you've given me today is there anything else that you saw or heard on the night of
01:37:44 that you saw or heard on the night of the fire that you think it important to draw to the attention of the Chairman i
01:37:53 I've got nothing actually to add except that we never had as long as I have been living there for
01:38:04 as long as I have been living there for 32 years any fire drills which we should have there was no meetings explaining
01:38:18 have there was no meetings explaining where should be in case of fire the meeting point outside it was nothing whatsoever there was like lack of communication between the PMO and the
01:38:31 communication between the PMO and the residents who are always ignored thank you for that and I thank you once again for coming to give evidence today very
01:38:43 for coming to give evidence today very well mrs. the VA check I'd like to add my thanks to those that mr. Rawat it's really important to us to hear about conditions inside the tower at different levels at different times and although
01:38:56 levels at different times and although it can be difficult for people to come and talk about it it does help us enormously and I'm very grateful indeed to you for coming along to tell us what you saw and heard and smells and so on
01:39:09 you saw and heard and smells and so on that's very great help thank you very much thank you right would you like to go to the option thank
01:39:28 yes mr. Wrather no well mr. Jim can I we've got some obviously some time left and I'd like to use that to give some statements into the record following on
01:39:40 statements into the record following on from the evidence that you've just heard the first statement I would like to put into the record now is that a Florentina sabe s check Elizabeth's daughter yes
01:39:51 sabe s check Elizabeth's daughter yes the reference for that is iws five zeros eight three one if we go please to page
01:40:06 eight three one if we go please to page six of the statement it's dated the 29th of June 2018 and signed with a statement of truth the on there are no exhibits to
01:40:20 of truth the on there are no exhibits to a covering the statement in the statement if we go back to page one please florentine explains that she
01:40:31 please florentine explains that she lived in Granville Tower for all of her life except for a couple of years when she was at university and she finished university in 2014 and then in her last year returned to live with her parents
01:40:42 year returned to live with her parents and stayed living there after she's graduated if I could just turn to her account of the evening of the night of the fire itself and that begins at page
01:40:53 the fire itself and that begins at page two on power a paragraph seven on the night of the fire been out with a friend we have quite a few drinks and I got back I washed my face got into my
01:41:04 back I washed my face got into my pajamas and got into bed it was about 12:15 a.m. a short time later I suddenly heard lots of sirens outside and so I got up I looked outside my bedroom
01:41:15 got up I looked outside my bedroom window which faced south I saw a firefighter rushing around getting a hose pipe connected and I could see thin white smoke emerging from the east side of the tower I went to my parents
01:41:26 of the tower I went to my parents bedroom to wake them up but my mum was already awake and was looking out of their window which faced the same direction as my own we were discussing what was happening when my mum said that she could smell smoke and so she went and opened our
01:41:37 smoke and so she went and opened our front door I remember her saying to me that she noticed the air vents on the right hand side by our door had switched on and that she had never heard this before I don't remember hearing this myself as I was standing
01:41:50 hearing this myself as I was standing with my mother at the front door our neighbors across the landing were in the process of leaving their flats I think they looked more panicked than we were at that time we saw another neighbor who lived in flat 41 she came from her flat
01:42:04 lived in flat 41 she came from her flat and said she was surprised by what was going on she said that there was heavy smoke in her flat and she could see flames from her window I went into her flat and the whole place was full of heavy white smoke it was thick enough
01:42:16 heavy white smoke it was thick enough for me to realize I needed to cover my mouth so I put my robe across my face to stop breathing in the smoke I went to her kitchen window because he flames to the left side that were level with the
01:42:27 the left side that were level with the window and were going up I could tell that the fire was already higher than our floor it was an utter shock to see flames at the window and I realized that we needed to get out of the building quickly at that time it was about 45
01:42:40 quickly at that time it was about 45 minutes after I had arrived home I think it was probably about one o'clock in the morning I went back to our flat again tell my parents that we needed to get ready to leave I felt that we needed to
01:42:51 ready to leave I felt that we needed to leave but I was not panicking and did not feel any major danger at the time I knew there were firefighters downstairs and thought that they would just deal with it at the time I didn't know the fire was spreading in the way that it
01:43:02 fire was spreading in the way that it was I woke my dad who was still sleeping and soon after I remembered that a firefighter knocked on our door he had no mask or breathing apparatus and simply said do you guys want to
01:43:13 and simply said do you guys want to start coming down I was very calm and thought I just should just do what he said I work as cabin crew and with my job I think I went into work mode we got
01:43:24 job I think I went into work mode we got ready quickly and we left it took me only a few moments to get ready to go I simply put my robe on and didn't take anything else with me I remember looking back just before we left and my dad was
01:43:35 back just before we left and my dad was shutting our bedroom doors he also shut all of the windows and air vents
01:43:39 vents on the way to on the way to the stairs I realized that I had seen all of our neighbors except for our neighbors in flat 42 so I banged on their door until they woke up and then I told them there
01:43:50 they woke up and then I told them there was a fire they need to get up they knew nothing about it and seemed to have just woken up from me banging on their door my mum dad and I then started to go down the stairs at that stage there was an
01:44:02 the stairs at that stage there was an increasing sense of panic but I remain calm and think this is probably because of my training at work we're trained to deal calmly with emergency situations you could hear people walking and
01:44:13 you could hear people walking and talking there was smoke in the stairway that was thick enough for people to be covering their mouths but the smoke was thin enough for me jail to see the person in front of me and where I was going on the stairs there were people behind us and I could
01:44:26 there were people behind us and I could hear them shuffling but I was not sure how many people there were at the bottom of the stairs there were two exits the tower there was a main exit that people used every day that face south and a
01:44:37 used every day that face south and a secondary exit on the east side facing the leisure center I remember as we were reaching the bottom of the stairs I could see burning cladding a metal falling close to the secondary exit and immediate realized that as this was the
01:44:49 immediate realized that as this was the closest to the stairs it might be people's first choice of route I realized how dangerous this would be in that others might not have noticed so when I arrived at the bottom of the stairs I stood for a time facing people
01:45:00 stairs I stood for a time facing people coming down and made sure that people use the main exit instead as that route was safer my parents left the tower whilst I stayed and did this I remember shouting that the exit was
01:45:11 I remember shouting that the exit was blocked and that people needed to go the other way
01:45:13 other way I think I redirected about 30 people before my mum and dad came back inside to grab me their faces showed sheer panic in a way I had never seen before my dad yelled at me that we needed to
01:45:25 my dad yelled at me that we needed to get out of the tower block as the tower block was going to collapse he grabbed me by the hood of the robe I was wearing and dragged me out
01:45:35 mr. Chairman Saul I proposed to read from that statement you can turn now to the statement of Florentine his father Michael shall be a check and that statement is at iws four zeros one one
01:45:47 statement is at iws four zeros one one one one
01:45:54 if we go please to the last page the statement is dated the 10th of August 2018 and it is signed with a statement of truth now there are no accompanying
01:46:07 of truth now there are no accompanying exhibits to go into the record if I could take you mr. chairman back to the first page please in this statement mr.
01:46:21 first page please in this statement mr. shabbiha Shack explains grep at paragraph 3 Grenfell tower had been my family's home for 32 years originally my wife Elizabeth and I have moved to flat
01:46:32 wife Elizabeth and I have moved to flat 191 a one-bedroom flat when Florentina was born we became entitled to a large flat and so we moved to flat 43 on the seventh floor when she was three years old if I now turn to paragraph 8 on the
01:46:44 old if I now turn to paragraph 8 on the next page pick it up with mr. sabi a chef's recollection of the night of the fire itself begins on the day of the fire I was working part-time until 4:00
01:46:57 fire I was working part-time until 4:00 p.m. I went to bed as usual at about 10 or 11 o'clock I was woken up by a commotion between my daughter and wife it was at about 1:10 a.m. it was a loud
01:47:09 it was at about 1:10 a.m. it was a loud exchange of words I could hear no noise from outside of that stage I became more and more alert very quickly the commotion continued getting louder I heard them opening the outside door to
01:47:21 I heard them opening the outside door to the corridor it's difficult to remember exactly what happened at that stage as I had been sleeping but I think Florentina came to tell me that I needed to get up this time there was no suggestion that
01:47:32 this time there was no suggestion that we needed to leave the flat two or three minutes later flan Tina came back and she was very clear and persuasive she said daddy we need to get out now get out now I got up and I got dressed I
01:47:45 out now I got up and I got dressed I remember two things particularly first Florentina being really alert and knocking on doors outside talking to my wife I put my head outside from the flat out of the front door I could already
01:47:56 out of the front door I could already smell the smell of smoke I remember locking our bedroom doors behind us Florentino and Elizabeth were already outside the flat I grabbed my phone and my keys and glasses
01:48:07 phone and my keys and glasses I said to myself that it was probably just to find the rubbish disposal and never crossed my mind at that time top point it would be anything more serious we went straight to the stairs I'm not
01:48:19 we went straight to the stairs I'm not sure how we went down but Elizabeth and I were together and he started going down the stairs when we opened the door to the stairwell there was a bad smell it was like a mixture of electrical and plastic smells I had to cover my mouth
01:48:32 plastic smells I had to cover my mouth and cover my nose with my clothes because of the smell it was an irritating smell at the back of the throat on the way down the stairs Florentina was ahead my recollection is
01:48:43 Florentina was ahead my recollection is that Elizabeth was next to me we arrived at the bottom of the stairs Florentine was close to the side exit which led to the Sports Center I was then horrified to see the immediate danger of the situation there
01:48:54 immediate danger of the situation there were balls of fire and flaming debris falling from the building directly where she was standing I said to Elizabeth that we needed to put Paul Florentina back and get out of the building straight away I grabbed flan Tina I
01:49:06 straight away I grabbed flan Tina I could tell she was being suffer from panic
01:49:08 panic she was disorientated on on high alert such a nerve-racking time I was shocked by the fireballs coming down and missing her by inches mr. Jim that's all I
01:49:21 her by inches mr. Jim that's all I proposed to read from that statement thank you very much I should have added at the beginning that of course as with all the other statements the states are admitted into the record in their entirety and considered as such as part
01:49:33 entirety and considered as such as part of the inquiries evidence yes that is right Erin I should also assess our thanks to those who took the time in trouble to make these statements and as you say they will form part of the evidence that will be taken into
01:49:45 evidence that will be taken into consideration
01:49:51 can I now take us back a little bit you'll remember mr. chairman that we heard evidence from mrs. Wang can Guang
01:50:04 heard evidence from mrs. Wang can Guang and what I'd like to do now is to read into the record the evidence of her former husband the van kwang-ho who's
01:50:17 former husband the van kwang-ho who's made a statement as well as the inquiry so could I have please iws five zeroes nine to five
01:50:33 and if we go please to the last page
01:50:45 we see I don't need to company my century but it is signed and each page is signed and the date of the statements the 11th of June 2018 if I could read
01:50:57 the 11th of June 2018 if I could read some parts of the statement yes I can we go back to page one please and paragraph
01:51:07 in paragraph three mr. Howe explains that before the fire AG rental tower he lived it flat 76 which was on the tenth floor of the
01:51:18 which was on the tenth floor of the tower and if we move forward to paragraph 11 of the statement please
01:51:32 he has this to say about the refurbishment after the fur-trimmed of the tower in about 2015-2016 a new front door was fitted to the flat when it was first installed the door would
01:51:43 first installed the door would automatically swings shut however after a period of time I do not know how long it would no longer automatically swing shut but would stay open until it was physically shut I would need to apply
01:51:54 physically shut I would need to apply forth in order to shut it as it was heavy I do not know if my wife ever asked for it to be fixed but I did not I think the door had three or four hinges on it the door would shut quite tight
01:52:05 on it the door would shut quite tight there were not any gaps between the door and the door frame he continues in paragraph 12 during the refurbishment of the tower in addition to a new front
01:52:17 the tower in addition to a new front door and smoke alarm I can recall that a new boiler and heater timer were fitted rewiring was only new windows windows were installed I was happy with all of the changes made I was not aware of any
01:52:28 the changes made I was not aware of any problems of the flat as a result of the refurbishment within the flat we would always leave the door between the kitchen and the hallway open we would usually leave one of the two windows in the kitchen open even when we went out
01:52:40 the kitchen open even when we went out leaving it open a little the windows in the kitchen opened outwards with the hinges on the vertical frame so that the gap would be at the side of the window there were safety devices on the window
01:52:51 there were safety devices on the window so they only opened approximately eight inches we would only open one of the windows as the fridge was in front of the other window he goes on in paragraph 15 to say this the extractor fan in the
01:53:04 15 to say this the extractor fan in the kitchen was above the cooker my wife installed this the extractor fan had a pipe which ran out of the window when it was open the pipe was about 10 centimeters in diameter before my wife installed this there was no extractor
01:53:16 installed this there was no extractor fan in the kitchen before the windows were changed they used to open wider sliding one behind the other so there was better ventilation than after they were changed well I believe the extractor fan was working on the night
01:53:28 extractor fan was working on the night of the fire it was switched off in the evening so he only used it when we were cooking if I could turn now to the events of the night itself and mr. hose account of that
01:53:39 account of that and you may recall that mrs. Quang wasn't actually aware that her former husband was was in the flat until until she was alerted to fire herself and he explained to paragraph 20 on page 4 I
01:53:52 explained to paragraph 20 on page 4 I got to my flat at about 11 p.m. on the evening of 13th of June after arriving home I had a wash and then went to bed I think I was in bed by about 11:30 p.m. I
01:54:03 think I was in bed by about 11:30 p.m. I slept in the smaller bedroom and my wife would sleep in the bigger bedroom I was asleep and I was woken by hearing my wife shouting my name and saying fire the smoke alarm was also sounding I do
01:54:15 the smoke alarm was also sounding I do not know what time this was as I did not look at a clock on my phone the lights in the bedroom was off there was no smoke in the bedroom slate and then continues I went to the bedroom door and
01:54:26 continues I went to the bedroom door and opened it when I opened the door I saw smoke in the corridor smoke came into the bedroom although the lights in the corridor were off usually I would be able to see in front of me while in the
01:54:37 able to see in front of me while in the corridor as light from outside the flat came through the open kitchen door and the window above the kitchen door had a glass panel both of which provided some light into the corridor even if all the
01:54:48 light into the corridor even if all the lights were off however when I opened my door I could not see anything due to the smoke the smoke was very thick and black I could not see where the front door was to get out if I put my hand out in front
01:55:01 to get out if I put my hand out in front of me I would not have been able to see it I could also smell the smoke I then picked up my mobile phone and my keys which were on a chest next to the door I did not see any flames in the flat
01:55:12 did not see any flames in the flat however I did see the flickering light that comes from flames this flickering light was coming from the kitchen and I saw the reflected flames because the door to the kitchen was open I never
01:55:24 door to the kitchen was open I never actually saw a physical flame so I cannot say precisely where the flames were coming from however I think they were outside the kitchen window and that the smoke was coming into the corridor from the open kitchen window but I
01:55:35 from the open kitchen window but I cannot be sure we tended to keep the other internal door shut so I think these would have been closed on the night of the fire after my wife had called for me she ran back into her
01:55:46 called for me she ran back into her bedroom to get some me longings and I opened my door I could not see her after I had grabbed the keys and mobile phone I asked where she was I was stood in front of my bedroom window I told her
01:55:58 in front of my bedroom window I told her to run to save her life everything felt confused to me and I was scared I heard my wife come out of her room although I could not see her due to the smoke I felt for her hand and I ran to where the
01:56:09 felt for her hand and I ran to where the front door was located because I could not see the door I felt around for the door handle in order to lock the front door you would lift the door handle up therefore in order to open it I pushed the handle down when I opened
01:56:22 I pushed the handle down when I opened the front door I did not see any smoke on the landing there was only smoke behind me I did not see any fire I saw firemen on the landing I cannot be sure but I think with two or three of them I
01:56:34 but I think with two or three of them I think they were male but I cannot be sure as I could not see them properly due to their protective equipment which covered their head I did not see any other people I went out of the flat
01:56:45 other people I went out of the flat did not shut the front door instead leaving it for the firemen to deal with I believe at least one of the firemen spoke to us a male but I could not understand what he was saying one of the firemen pushed me towards the door
01:56:56 firemen pushed me towards the door together with my wife there is a door from the landing to the stairs which you push and which automatically closes behind you I pushed it open and began to run down the stairs I was scared of
01:57:08 run down the stairs I was scared of dying
01:57:08 dying so I ran fast I did not see any other people on the stairs there was no smoke on the stairs I'm not sure how long it took me to run down the stairs however it would normally take me about 3 or 4
01:57:19 it would normally take me about 3 or 4 minutes to walk down the stairs so it would have been less time than that when I got to the bottom of the stairs I ran out of the main exit which faces the walkway I'm going to pause there and
01:57:32 walkway I'm going to pause there and just move to finally read paragraph 34 on page 6 of the statement which reads as follows before the fire I was aware from friends of the stay-put advice from
01:57:44 from friends of the stay-put advice from the fire brigade my understanding of what the policy meant was that in the event of a fire a fireman would come to rescue us and that we should not leave the flat as it would be too dangerous however there was black smoke and they
01:57:56 however there was black smoke and they appear to be fire in our flat so we left and that's all that mystery for mr. ho statement thank you very much thankee if I could now turn to the statement are of
01:58:07 I could now turn to the statement are of mrs. clang uh mr. hos daughter Lucy ho please that statement is at iaws five zero six five five
01:58:25 the statement if we go please - page I think it 11 it carries a statement of
01:58:41 think it 11 it carries a statement of truth he's dated the 30th of May of 2018 and is signed the same it has two
01:58:52 and is signed the same it has two exhibits miscarriage form part of the same reference and they are at pages 13 to 16 so 13 - yes 13 to 15 get me if I
01:59:08 to 16 so 13 - yes 13 to 15 get me if I could take you back to page 1 of the statement please
01:59:17 in statement Lucy begins at paragraph 3 by saying this I grew up in Granville Tower and all of my childhood memories are from that building and the area that it is in I went to ground for nursery
01:59:30 it is in I went to ground for nursery which was founded by Zoe Danes Anne's grandmother I then attended Oxford Gardens primary school in year 7 I started Holland Park secondary school and remained there until I began University and if we go through to
01:59:44 University and if we go through to paragraph 6 on the next page please
01:59:51 Lucy says I moved out of my family home in 2013 when I started renting at my uncle's house apart from a year studying at Bradford University this is the only time that I'd lived away from Greenville
02:00:02 time that I'd lived away from Greenville tower approximately a year and a half later I moved back to my mum's house between 2015 and 14th of June 2017 I lived at both my family home with my mum
02:00:13 lived at both my family home with my mum and at my boyfriend Paul Conroy is flat he lived at Behrend and walk my sister Jenny quang lived in our flat with my mum on the night of the fire she was in Manchester she studies medicine at Manchester University stateman continues
02:00:27 Manchester University stateman continues at paragraph 9 as follows I had many friends that lived in rental Tower my good friend was Maryam al-khawaja she lived on the 22nd floor in flat 196 we attended the same primary and
02:00:39 we attended the same primary and secondary schools she was in the same year as me at school she sadly passed away in the fire my other friend is Christopher uncle Otto he lived in flat 72 on the same floor as
02:00:50 he lived in flat 72 on the same floor as me he's roughly of similar aged me but we did not attend the same schools another friend is Adam in flat 73 he went to the same school as me also Bobby
02:01:01 went to the same school as me also Bobby who lived in flat one - - he's all my childhood friends who lived in Granville Tower I maintained my friendship with Miriam into our adult years mr. chairman
02:01:13 Miriam into our adult years mr. chairman I could now go through to page four and just read some extracts from Lucy's recollection of the events of the night themselves we begin at paragraph 18 on
02:01:26 themselves we begin at paragraph 18 on 13th June I worked the early shift from 7:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. I remember feeling unhappy that day for some reason my mum was also sad she'd come back from Vietnam for every 2017
02:01:37 come back from Vietnam for every 2017 and her homecare client had passed away she'd also been didn't interview she's not gone well from her perspective I suggested we both get retail therapy so we went shopping I met her at 4:30 p.m.
02:01:49 we went shopping I met her at 4:30 p.m. at Shepherds Bush and we went to Westfield Shopping Centre after buying clothes for both of us we've got a taxi to Paul's flat we arrived at Paul's house at around 7 p.m. my mum took our shopping bags back to our flat
02:02:02 shopping bags back to our flat after arriving at Paul's flatten bound and walk I had dinner with Paul we had take away and watch TV while eating I went to bed at 12:30 midnight I was supposed to be working the 1:30 shift the next day at around 1:15 a.m.
02:02:17 shift the next day at around 1:15 a.m. Paul woke me up and said there was something wrong in the ground-floor tower area he said that several fire brigade trucks were outside I did not think anything of it and tell Paul that it was probably a
02:02:28 it and tell Paul that it was probably a person stuck in the lift of Grenville Tower I think that he'd already seen the fire from the window it wanted to wake me up calmly with a serous voice he told me to get dressed and call my mum his
02:02:39 me to get dressed and call my mum his voice was trembling he said you need to check on your mum right now I got up and made my way to the window I saw a flame reflecting on tredgold house I could not
02:02:50 reflecting on tredgold house I could not see the tower but the night was lit up orange from the fire we then made our way outside to see what was happening we went through the 300s inside the block to the side of burned and walk that
02:03:01 to the side of burned and walk that leads onto Grenville walk and the face rental tower we had a fob key that gave us easy access to had exit rather than going around as he walked out of Behrend and walk like a sea Grenville tower on
02:03:13 and walk like a sea Grenville tower on fire I was confused and worried I knew that my mum would have been in there as I ran out I could see on my phone that my mum had given me three missed calls from her number we exited
02:03:26 missed calls from her number we exited Behrend and Walken stood at a raised platform just outside the door that is connected to ground for tower I stood there with Paul and three other people the fire was on the same sides are flat I was in shock and worried for my mother
02:03:39 I was in shock and worried for my mother my home was on fire when I first saw the blaze my initial thought was that this was very serious and that my mum was likely to be stuck I was worried as I know she has issues
02:03:50 I was worried as I know she has issues walking what if she couldn't get downstairs safely or quickly enough I was upset so I could always see my home on fire and I was very unsettled by the extent the fire was already at just
02:04:03 extent the fire was already at just looking at the flames made my stomach turn
02:04:05 turn I was nervous and shaken I couldn't think straight or get my head in the right mind frame to function for a long Paul had to prompt me on what I needed to do call my mum get out of the flat
02:04:17 to do call my mum get out of the flat and find her possibly we needed to go out to get her it took a while but I just think I was panicking too much in all honesty I did not think I was the panic first type I
02:04:28 not think I was the panic first type I was thought I was mentally strong enough to get myself together in situations of distress I tried to call my mom back while at platform on her number I called her two three times but she did not
02:04:39 her two three times but she did not answer I told Paul that we needed to go up and rescue my mother I thought that she was inside I knew that she would try to escape but because of her lack of English she would not call 999 but would
02:04:50 English she would not call 999 but would call me instead as we walked towards the tower
02:04:54 tower I saw Simon jolly Simon and I walk our dogs together wrong with a man named Nick I asked him if he'd seen my mother he replied that he's not he told me that Nick was inside the flat I thought that
02:05:07 Nick was inside the flat I thought that mum was still inside - I grew even more anxious I wanted to go inside however the police pushed us away when we first came outside there were no police officers while I was talking to Simon
02:05:18 officers while I was talking to Simon Johnny suddenly four police officers came to where we were standing they told us to move back the fires onto one side of the building the same side as our flat we stood outside at approximately
02:05:30 flat we stood outside at approximately 1:20 from what I could see the fire already reached the 13th floor this was past our flat on the tenth floor this realisation made me panic even more I turned to Paul and said the fires gone
02:05:43 I turned to Paul and said the fires gone past my mum's flat Paul was very calm and kept his head he could see that I was panicking and did not want to worry me he said that my mum had tried to call me which means that she must be safe he
02:05:54 me which means that she must be safe he suggested that she could already be outside and that we should look for her if I go to paragraph 29 Lucy continues it suddenly clicked to me that my dad may also have been in the building he
02:06:06 may also have been in the building he does not live with us but he pops up now and then announced I rang him and he picked up straightaway I asked him where he was and he replied the buildings on fire I asked him where mum was he says she was with him he passed the phone to
02:06:19 she was with him he passed the phone to my mum and she told me that they were outside
02:06:21 outside I was not sure she meant outside the flat but still inside the building so I kept asking her questions until I knew for sure that she was outside and away from the building I told her not to go
02:06:35 from the building I told her not to go anywhere near the flat her voice was trembling she was not quiet crying but she was unable to speak I told my mum to go to Paul's house I wanted to make sure
02:06:46 go to Paul's house I wanted to make sure that she knew it so I told her to go to the same place that the taxi had dropped her off at 7:00 p.m. last night Paul and I rushed back to bounden when we reached outside Baron of the walk I saw my mum and dad outside my mum had pajamas and
02:07:00 and dad outside my mum had pajamas and slippers on my dad did not have any shoes on
02:07:03 shoes on we weren't inside and Paul made tea for us all
02:07:06 us all Paul gave my dad a winter jacket and sandals it was a cold night so my dad definitely needed the jacket if I move now to paragraph 33 after I am made sure
02:07:19 now to paragraph 33 after I am made sure that my mum and dad were fine I went out to the balcony to smoke a cigarette I was calming down my mum was fine the flap may be on fire but my mum was fine then it suddenly hit me and I started
02:07:30 then it suddenly hit me and I started remembering all of my friends Maryam al-khawaja came to my mind first she's one of my closest friends Mariam lived in flat 196 on the 22nd floor of Granville Tower I was stressed all over
02:07:43 Granville Tower I was stressed all over again after had come down because my mum was alright at this point I thought they'd cost me it could possibly be too late but I had hope she was too young to die she would make it the flames are already reaching her
02:07:55 the flames are already reaching her house I know she's more easily stressed than me
02:07:57 than me especially because she lived much higher up in the tower I also know her mother's health particularly her walking abilities is not as good as my mother's and my mum's in a dire walking state she
02:08:08 and my mum's in a dire walking state she would never leave her mom behind she'll just trust Authority which angered me because I felt the emergency services should have told her to leave maybe given her advice on what to do but around 2:00 a.m. I rang her from the
02:08:20 around 2:00 a.m. I rang her from the balcony on her number she was crying I told her to leave and that she had plenty of time she told me that her and her mum had moved to flat 205 of Grenville Tower which is on floor 23
02:08:33 Grenville Tower which is on floor 23 she said that the emergency services knew that they were there would come for them she said that it was smoky and hot I was terrified for her not only because she was scared because I could see what
02:08:44 she was scared because I could see what the building was like on the outside her life was at more risk than I know she had thought I don't know how anyone couldn't be scared of what they saw he was so uncontrollable so ferocious and
02:08:55 was so uncontrollable so ferocious and spontaneous you couldn't tell which way the fire would spread and how quickly at first you just knew it was going up up to where Miriam was I told her that she should leave I was on the phone to her
02:09:06 should leave I was on the phone to her for proxy minutes and told her that I will call her back and speak to emergency services I went outside and saw a fireman he told me that he could not speak with me and redirected me to a
02:09:17 not speak with me and redirected me to a police officer that was standing there I spoke to the officer and told him that my friend her mum and around four other people were in flat 205 I felt like he was only collecting information generally rather than collecting information to inform the fire brigade
02:09:29 information to inform the fire brigade I called Miriam back but she did not answer I looked up to the tower and could see that the fire was now on two sides Lucy then talks about the
02:09:41 sides Lucy then talks about the evacuation of Behrendt and walk finished at that part of her statement my stepdaughters mum called Paul to inform him that the police were knocking on doors inside burned and walk and asking people to evacuate this is around 3:00
02:09:53 people to evacuate this is around 3:00 a.m. they were saying that the tower may fall I had no idea where to go I also had two dogs I told my mum that we needed to go my mum had a friend who lived in Robinson house Paul and I with
02:10:06 lived in Robinson house Paul and I with the dogs walked my mum and dad to her friend's house this was just after 3:00 a.m. Paul and I had nowhere to go and we also have two dogs with us we just started walking around the area reflecting what was what was happening
02:10:18 reflecting what was what was happening and looking at my home burn by approximately 4:00 a.m. all four sides of the tower were on fire from the intensity of the fire knew that there were going to be many casualties I saw people on the 23rd floor which is
02:10:31 I saw people on the 23rd floor which is the top floor fire met at that point I kept calling Miriam but she was not answering I thought she'd left the tower and left her phone inside I sent my boss a message early in the
02:10:43 I sent my boss a message early in the morning to tell him that my house was on fire and I would not be coming to work and that's all I proposed to read from Lucy host statement yeah thank you can I now turn to Love Lucy sister Jenny quam
02:10:56 now turn to Love Lucy sister Jenny quam which is at iws five zero seven six six
02:11:13 if we go please to the last page page eight thank you there is a statement of truth it's dated the 25th of June 2018 and signed there
02:11:27 the 25th of June 2018 and signed there are no exhibits accompanying the statement if I go back please to page of one of the statement Jenny in her
02:11:39 one of the statement Jenny in her statement explains some background if I pick it up a paragraph - I'm 23 years old I lived on the 10th floor of Grand Hotel on flat 76 with my mum hung Kwong and my sister Lucy ho my mum was a
02:11:52 and my sister Lucy ho my mum was a council tenor - moved to Grand Hotel in 1990 before I was born my dad van Hove moved out many years ago would occasionally stay at our flat I study medicine and have two years remaining of
02:12:04 medicine and have two years remaining of my course currently I'm studying for masters and tissue engineering for regenerative medicine apart from my time away at university I'd lived in Grand Hotel all of my life before the fire I attended the day
02:12:16 before the fire I attended the day nursery that was located inside the tower I then attended Oxford Gardens primary school a secondary school I went to Paul's simples girls school a private school in Hammersmith I was given a full
02:12:27 school in Hammersmith I was given a full scholarship and I remained there until the end of sixth form if I could then turn to page two please and just to read
02:12:43 turn to page two please and just to read just two paragraphs in relation to flat 76 itself jenny has this to say at paragraph 11 we had two smoke alarms one in the kitchen and the hallway these
02:12:55 in the kitchen and the hallway these were put in by the council in I think 2013 replacing the old ones I do not remember them checking the alarms after they were put in we did regular checks to make sure that they were working other than fire alarms I do not recall
02:13:08 other than fire alarms I do not recall there being any other fire safety measures front door to our flap was read it was relatively new having been replaced in the last five years once opened it would not shut by itself and
02:13:20 opened it would not shut by itself and would stay open until someone closed it I do not think it has self mechanism and I do not think it was a fire door their fire doors fitted in the student accommodation that I've stayed in and in comparison with those this
02:13:31 in and in comparison with those this door was not very good if I could now turn to page four of the statement mr. chairman will gathered both from the evidence mrs. Quang and and the
02:13:43 evidence mrs. Quang and and the statement of Lucy that Jenny was not in grateful tower on the night itself but at University in Manchester paragraph 24 I won't read this out but twenty four
02:13:55 I won't read this out but twenty four two two twenty eight she sets out how she learned about the progress of the fire through a series of text messages with her sister Lucy and if we go to the
02:14:08 with her sister Lucy and if we go to the next page and I just what I just want to read though into the record is paragraph 29 and this is sometime after 6:30 on on
02:14:23 29 and this is sometime after 6:30 on on the 14th of June itself and Lucy says Jenny says this I turned on the television and saw the fire burning my home the flames of ferocious and were bright orange burst into tears my home
02:14:36 bright orange burst into tears my home was burning and I was away from my family I felt hopeless and confused I realized then that it was all real I was initially in denial because of how unbelievable the fire looks it felt like
02:14:48 unbelievable the fire looks it felt like I was watching a movie the whole thing felt appalling Lee helpless particular as we had no idea how many people were dead or alive at the time I felt deeply saddened by the loss of my family home
02:14:59 saddened by the loss of my family home but it feels trivial compared to all the loss of life and how much this has wounded people in the whole area I strongly felt that I needed to come home and try to repair some of it but also grew more hurt and angrier about the
02:15:15 grew more hurt and angrier about the situation and that's all I propose to read from that statement for me yes thank you very much
02:15:27 could I now turn please to the statement of nagua Crossy now look Wargo first statement is iws seven zeros nine
02:15:52 if we go please to page six of the statement
02:16:05 it's the statement of truth it's dated 13th of March 2018 and it's signed the statement is accompanied by four
02:16:18 statement is accompanied by four exhibits which are NPN one two four and they're at pages 7 to 11 of the same statement we also have a supplementary statement which we ought to put into the
02:16:30 statement which we ought to put into the record and that is at I WS 4 zeros 1 1 1 8 and again if we sorry I'll wait for her to come up
02:16:54 thank you if we go to the second page of that that's again signed er the segment of truth and dated the 8th of October
02:17:05 of truth and dated the 8th of October 2018 mr. Lacroix go if we go back to her first statement so I WS seven zeroes
02:17:17 first statement so I WS seven zeroes nine at page one please
02:17:27 she explains in her statement that at the time of the fire she was living in flat 71 on the tenth floor with the tenant of that flat Lillian or WA they'd
02:17:39 tenant of that flat Lillian or WA they'd met through a mutual friend and she confirms in her supplementary statement that she was alone in the flat on the night of the fire I just want to have a
02:17:50 night of the fire I just want to have a read into the record mr. Illig waggers account of the night itself and I go to page two of this statement paragraph ten
02:18:02 page two of this statement paragraph ten please I pick it up at the last part of paragraph nine that the last sentence says I went to bed early probably around
02:18:14 says I went to bed early probably around 8:00 p.m. and then it continues in paragraph ten I do not know what time it was but I was woken by what sounded like wind going through the trees outside it
02:18:25 wind going through the trees outside it was quite loud but I thought nothing of it the kitchen window was open as it was a warm night I tried to get back to sleep by pulling my duvet over my head the noise was getting louder and stronger now Gaga got out of bed to
02:18:38 stronger now Gaga got out of bed to investigate and went into the kitchen to close the window when I went into the kitchen I was horrified to see flames to my left outside shooting up the side of the building above my head it was moving
02:18:49 the building above my head it was moving really fast as if petrol was being poured on it at this stage the fire was at the next-door flat and not by or in my flat but it was moving towards the flat I panicked and looked around for
02:19:02 flat I panicked and looked around for Lillian I went to her room but she was not there I then went back to my room to get my phone I then looked at my phone and realized I had lots of missed calls from Lillian I called Lillian I was
02:19:15 from Lillian I called Lillian I was screaming I knew I couldn't use the lift but I was not sure where the fire stairs were I'd never used them before she was trying to tell me how to get but I didn't understand what she was saying my
02:19:26 didn't understand what she was saying my brain was not really working I was just scared and in a state of complete panic well this time the fire was in the sitting room shooting up the window which had been shut behind where the
02:19:37 which had been shut behind where the television was I hung up the phone to Lillian the fire had two colors a green which I can still picture vividly in my head and a normal fire color of orange
02:19:48 head and a normal fire color of orange the fire was making a very loud cracking sound like breaking glass it was absolutely terrifying I was eating it was eating the television which was in
02:19:59 was eating the television which was in the left-hand corner of the living room and was running across the wall by the window
02:20:03 window eating the pictures Stenton continues a paragraph 16 I truly believed I was going to die I wanted to call my family
02:20:14 going to die I wanted to call my family to say goodbye I called my auntie Monica Newark in big way she's not my blood relative but she's the mum of my best friend Irene and she's like a mother to me I told auntie I was didn't die in the
02:20:26 me I told auntie I was didn't die in the flood I'd gone in the kitchen by the window and I told her I was going to jump she's talking to me trying to make me calm down she told me I had to get out I opened the door to the flat there
02:20:39 out I opened the door to the flat there was no light and it was very dark as soon as I opened the door I was hit by a wall of black smoke it was hot I couldn't see anything there was no noise in the lobby after I'd opened the door
02:20:50 in the lobby after I'd opened the door the smoke alarm which was on the ceiling by the door in the flat started to go off I do not know who fitted this alarm or how it operated I recoiled back and quickly shot the door I was still on the
02:21:02 quickly shot the door I was still on the phone to my auntie she told me that I had to try and get out she was screaming at me commanding me I did not have any clothes on I went back into my room put on a leather skirt and a striped t-shirt the fire had by this time eaten a store
02:21:15 the fire had by this time eaten a store which was to the right of the television had moved into the living room she told me to get some wet towels and cover up I had earlier so to do very ready to be washed the next day but still wet I went
02:21:27 washed the next day but still wet I went to the bathroom there was smoke there and elsewhere in the flat it was not full of smoke I put the duvet over me covering me completely I put my phone in my waistband but still connected to my
02:21:38 waistband but still connected to my auntie open the door from the flat to the landing I could not see a thing it was completely dark with very thick black smoke I felt like I was sucking in too
02:21:49 smoke I felt like I was sucking in too much smoke it was choking me I stepped forward out of the flat and almost immediately fell over what I thought was a body on the ground I stood up and moved and almost immediately fell on
02:22:00 moved and almost immediately fell on what felt like a second body it was horrific I got up and said to aunty I'm going back to the flat to Darya I tried but I do not know which way I did I tried so I read that again I tried but I
02:22:12 tried so I read that again I tried but I did not know which way I was going I was very disorientated I kept crying I'm going to die my aunty kept saying no get out I fell again over what I thought was
02:22:23 out I fell again over what I thought was a body I totally lost it I couldn't talk anymore
02:22:27 anymore it swallowed too much smoke I could hear my auntie screaming for help I stumbled around and fell over what I believe was another body I fell lengthways along the body and I felt felt my head hit
02:22:38 body and I felt felt my head hit something hard it was a door and it opens slight wither the force of my head hitting it I could see a bit of light it
02:22:49 hitting it I could see a bit of light it was the fire door exit on the stairwell I tried to stand and fell through the door it was light and there was no smoke I did not see anyone on the stairs I then literally fell and stumbled down
02:23:00 then literally fell and stumbled down about two floors I fell down and saw a fireman coming up I think I landed on his fire hose I do not remember the fireman having any breathing equipment on just his helmet my phone had fallen
02:23:12 on just his helmet my phone had fallen from my waistband his scream was broken I picked it up the firemen told me to get out get out stairwell was light and I do not remember any smoke in it I do not
02:23:23 remember any smoke in it I do not remember getting out I remember complete chaos outside but I do not recall seeing anyone in particular I had lost the duvet somewhere on the landing and
02:23:34 duvet somewhere on the landing and that's as much like a story from that statement please Jim I think there's one more statement from me to read in this moment and that is
02:23:46 me to read in this moment and that is the statement of an chance iws five zero seven eight three
02:24:03 you go plays pieced page 11 statement is dated 28th of June 2018 is signed and
02:24:16 dated 28th of June 2018 is signed and carries a statement of truths there are
02:24:22 three exhibits which are the joint reference for which is iws five zero seven eight two and again I'd like to read an extract from this statement if I
02:24:33 read an extract from this statement if I may if I could take us back to page 1 on the statement yes paragraph 2 and
02:24:45 the statement yes paragraph 2 and explains I lived in flat 73 on the 10th floor Graham tall tower with my mother to odds as well as my cousin she continues in paragraph 3 I've lived in
02:24:57 continues in paragraph 3 I've lived in West London my entire life and I have lived in rental towers since I was 10 months old it's where I grew up I have never known any other place to be my home if I turn now its challenges to
02:25:10 home if I turn now its challenges to mischance account of the night of the fire itself that begins at age three paragraph 23
02:25:21 on Tuesday 13th of June 2017 I fell asleep about 2100 hours in my room with my mum whilst who have been watching television earlier that day I
02:25:34 watching television earlier that day I had a medical appointment and so in the evening I'd gone to see a movie with my mum and two aunts I returned home with my mum one of my aunts the mother of my cousin around 7:00 p.m. my cousin was
02:25:45 cousin around 7:00 p.m. my cousin was already in the flat by this time my other aunt had not come back to the flat with us because she decided to go straight to a nearby tower to visit my uncle and her niece at about 1:00 a.m.
02:25:57 uncle and her niece at about 1:00 a.m. on Wednesday 14th of June 2017 my auntie would come home with us came into my room and woke us up she said she could smell smoke and hear noises coming from the landing area outside the flat I do
02:26:10 the landing area outside the flat I do not recall anything else she said as soon as I walked out from my bedroom I remember seeing smoke coming from underneath the front door at least at the landing area it's very thin smoke I do not remember where exactly under the
02:26:23 do not remember where exactly under the door that the smoke was coming from we went to my aunt's room but I cannot be certain whether this was as a result of advice from emergency services or whether we did this before calling nine
02:26:34 whether we did this before calling nine nine now however I think it is likely that we would have gathered there initially I do not remember smelling anything when going to my aunt's room or when we were first in there I know that
02:26:45 when we were first in there I know that I felt concerned about what was happening and that is why I called emergency services from my mobile number at around 1:40 a.m. i recall the operator operator told me that it was a
02:26:56 operator operator told me that it was a fire on the fourth floor and their explanation gave me the impression that it seemed like they had it under control i told him that there was smoke coming up and our front door was hot i'm no
02:27:07 up and our front door was hot i'm no longer able to describe the smoke that i was referring to I'm also not sure how I would have known the door was hot other than perhaps looking through the spy hole on the door to see if I could tell what was going on outside I recall that
02:27:19 what was going on outside I recall that we were worried that we should try and get out to get out the operator told us that we needed to stop the smoke coming in and so we should block the door with any blankets clothing or towels
02:27:30 any blankets clothing or towels when I asked what we should do they told me we should stay where we were and to wait for somebody to come and get us we followed the instruction and covered the door with towels at the bottom I
02:27:42 the door with towels at the bottom I remember being in my aunt's room and looking out of the window by the long radiator and another window alongside on the corner which looks out onto Latimer Road station I think it was between 1:40
02:27:53 Road station I think it was between 1:40 a.m. and 226 a.m. as I looked out of the window and saw fire engines outside block I also think that during this time I saw what looked like a tip of an orange flame or a reflection of it from
02:28:04 orange flame or a reflection of it from the left side of the building it looked like it was a few Falls below us around flat 22 or flat 33 I could see this when I was looking out of the window by the
02:28:15 I was looking out of the window by the long radiator next to an artists bed I call the emergency services again at around 2:20 8:00 a.m. because the fire started to look like it was increasing by this I mean that it like it was
02:28:28 by this I mean that it like it was breaking out of the building so it did not seem like it was contained I could see dark smoke floating around the fire and going upwards gradually but I do not think it reached as high as our windows at this stage I could hear
02:28:41 windows at this stage I could hear screaming and lots of people shouting fire and get out from the outside I think it was at this point that I saw firemen below of the tower just behind the playground and I think there were perhaps 20 they were looking upwards and
02:28:54 perhaps 20 they were looking upwards and they seemed to look helpless like they were trying to figure out what to do I explained to the operator that I was trying to find out what was going on because we previously been told to stay put on weight the operator told me that
02:29:06 put on weight the operator told me that if we were able to leave then it was up to us that their main advice was that we should block the smoke coming in coming up sorry I told them that we'd been doing that but that he was starting to get quite hot inside they advised me to
02:29:19 get quite hot inside they advised me to open a window if I could do so without smoke coming in my auntie mum and cousin made other 999 calls and possibly two other family members or friends but I do not know who called who I believe that
02:29:32 not know who called who I believe that around this time we made attempts to leave maybe once or twice however I recall as soon as we open the door unbearable heat hit us in the face and it was impossible to I think by the time I called an operator
02:29:43 I think by the time I called an operator for a third time my cousin and my aunt were also calling operators time of my third call was around 243 a.m. I told the operator that I thought the fire was
02:29:54 the operator that I thought the fire was coming up higher towards our floor I do not recall what I saw they asked me where there was any way to leave the flat but I said that I did not think so because the hall was pitch black and we were on the tenth floor and I knew that
02:30:05 were on the tenth floor and I knew that the fire was on the fourth floor below I was really worried we were trapped in the building by the fire I explained to them that when we opened the windows a lot of smoke coming in I think by this
02:30:16 lot of smoke coming in I think by this time the smoke in our flat could have been around the midpoint of my body this would have been in my arm strim the operator asked me again whether I could try and get out of my flat and whether it was possible I did not know if it was
02:30:28 it was possible I did not know if it was possible because I did not know where the fire was I asked what was going to happen if we tried to get out they seemed to suggest that we should just go downstairs and they said this this was now of their main advice they told me
02:30:40 now of their main advice they told me that we should wear towels over our heads and faces and try and get out I was worried that we will be blocked from escaping by the fire as all I knew was that it was below where we were I was
02:30:51 that it was below where we were I was scared we might come face to face with it I asked whether it was clear to get out I also said there were flames outside when I think back to this I remember just seeing flames and thinking
02:31:03 remember just seeing flames and thinking they were getting higher like the fire was spreading to higher floors in the same area of the building I was terrified we attempted again to leave the flat I was unable to recall exactly how many times whenever we tried I do
02:31:16 how many times whenever we tried I do remember that the heat was intolerable when we opened the front door and we could not persevere through it even when we had put wet towels over our heads as we remained in the flat the temperature
02:31:27 we remained in the flat the temperature started to rise then the smoke became worse causing us to cough I was scared that we were going to suffocate it began to seem like there was smoke floating everywhere whenever I looked there was
02:31:38 everywhere whenever I looked there was smoke he's also seen the smoke was thicker and it was a kind of mid gray color my mom was trying to keep us calm and asked us to stay away from the windows she later told me this is because she believed the flames had
02:31:50 because she believed the flames had reached our floor and that may spread towards the window the intensity of the fireman Tiran 999 again at about 257 a.m. spoke to an operator called Mitch I pleaded
02:32:03 to an operator called Mitch I pleaded for somebody to come and get us I told him the door was too hot and that we were suffocating I asked him where the fire was and he told me what's throughout the building which terrified me when I told him the handle was too
02:32:14 me when I told him the handle was too hot he asked me if the fire was directly outside my door and I told him that I believe there were flames outside the door this was because of the intense heat that hit us when we opened the door
02:32:25 heat that hit us when we opened the door he told me to stay in a room that was furthest away from the fire which I believe we were already doing and also to stay low with wet towels covering our heads and mouth I asked if somebody was
02:32:36 heads and mouth I asked if somebody was coming to get us and which told me they were making efforts to get through I asked if we were able to use the stairs and he told me that he could pass on my details to the fire service I believe there was no safe way out
02:32:48 I believe there was no safe way out other than a window towards the corner of our property I think this was the window by a my aunt's bed I remember my aunt and cousin being on the phone to emergency services around the same time
02:32:59 emergency services around the same time and they were being told they had to evacuate this was really bewildering so I told Mitch that I did not understand why he was advising me to stay put but somebody else was saying my aunt to evacuate Mitch said that if it was safe
02:33:12 evacuate Mitch said that if it was safe to evacuate then we should but I told him it was not safe because the HUD door handle was too hot and there was too much smoke I was really scared the fire was closed and that we did not know
02:33:23 was closed and that we did not know exactly where it might be throughout the building he said that if we could safely get to a stairwell then we should I told him I was worried that the fire could be anywhere in the stairwell I asked him if
02:33:34 anywhere in the stairwell I asked him if you could tell me where the fire was but he was unable to do so around 17 minutes into this call I was aware that another operator was advising my cousin and my aunt at the same time that we had to get
02:33:46 aunt at the same time that we had to get out and that nobody was coming to get us Mitch assured me that this was not necessarily the case however approximately 20 minutes into the call we tried to leave the flat again but it was just too hot on this occasion the
02:33:59 was just too hot on this occasion the door seemed to expand I think it expanded due to the heat and therefore we were unable to close it properly I told Mitch that I could not close it each of us tried to close it again but none of us could I recall my my cousin
02:34:12 none of us could I recall my my cousin starts a desperate shouted out out of our window for help the window by my aunt's bed I now know this would have been around twenty nine minutes into my call with Mitch and that he thought shouting for attention was a good idea I was crying
02:34:25 attention was a good idea I was crying but I was still trying to remain calm smoke was getting worse by this point because it was coming through the front door despite the fact that we had so many towels trying to block gaps I do not think the smoke was thick enough but
02:34:37 not think the smoke was thick enough but it affected my visibility of things in the apartment but it was everywhere an amid gray color it was certainly making us all cough more which is primarily what made me think it was getting worse during the
02:34:50 think it was getting worse during the call with Mitch I became aware of lots of falling debris I now know this was about 50 minutes into my call with Mitch at around the same time I could see water and I thought I could feel Jets of water outside the window behind me this would
02:35:03 outside the window behind me this would have been the window by my aunt's bed and the long radiator I thought at the time that the debris was falling from the impact of the water I stopped opening the window because I was scared of the falling debris but
02:35:16 was scared of the falling debris but then I did open it a tiny bit just so that we had some oxygen coming in it's difficult to record what the debris looked like but I think it was made up of burnt and burning material or fabric that I could see floating down past the
02:35:28 that I could see floating down past the window it was made up of all different sizes but the biggest pieces were around the size of 20 centimeters by 20 centimeters there were lots of smaller pieces around an hour into the call I
02:35:40 pieces around an hour into the call I spoke to an operator who's on the phone to my cousin they told me that we absolutely we had absolutely no other choice but to go and I told Mitch the same this operator told us cover our
02:35:51 same this operator told us cover our faces with whatever I could and make our way to the staircase I agreed with Mitch that I put my phone in my pocket whilst we try to escape after about 3 to 4 minutes of trying to leave
02:36:02 minutes of trying to leave I told Mitch that we were unable to and there was too much smoking it was hot I remember my cousin screaming it was too hot
02:36:10 hot we had got the wet towels but as soon as we opened it again the heat just hit us it was like nothing I have ever experienced my cousin and my aunt were hysterical it seemed hopeless it was so
02:36:24 hysterical it seemed hopeless it was so dark and the smoke seemed so thick I could not see anything but smoke against the pitch-black background in the hallway I think it was dark thick gray smoke it was at my face level or above
02:36:36 smoke it was at my face level or above but I do not remember looking down or noticing if it was also below around 10 minutes later I told Mitch the smoke was getting worse I remember the smoke was above my head and a low level of smoke which was more
02:36:48 and a low level of smoke which was more or less in front of my face I do not remember exactly how it might have got worse I started to believe that nobody would be coming to help us time seemed to pass very slowly and I thought this
02:37:00 to pass very slowly and I thought this was it and I was going to die and no one would come to get us out my cousin and my aunt who were very upset as I was but I was trying my best not to show it I remember asking Mitch why nobody was
02:37:12 remember asking Mitch why nobody was coming but he assured me that they were and they had to fight the fire to be able to get to us whilst I was aware of Jets of water none of the smoke subsided and I was really scared I do not recall
02:37:23 and I was really scared I do not recall smells tastes or sounds I was just concentrating on the call with Mitch to help me remain calm after I've been on the phone to Mitch for around 18 minutes firefighters made it to our apartment I
02:37:35 firefighters made it to our apartment I think my mum opened the door to them as she had been trying to hold the door shut once it had expanded I remember we had wet towels over our head and each person was partnered with a firefighter
02:37:46 person was partnered with a firefighter all I remember is that as we left the flat it looked like there were a wall of firemen between our door and the fire exit this was in addition to the firemen accompanying each of us I think the only
02:37:58 accompanying each of us I think the only other only items we all took were our passports and wallets I think it was between my first and second phone call to 999 that I put these all in my hoodie this was because I think I assumed at
02:38:09 this was because I think I assumed at this point that the only way will be we would be rescued would be via a window therefore I did not want to carry anything so I offered to put them all in my hoodie
02:38:19 my hoodie across the landing area to get to the stairwell it was pitch black other than farms lights that they had on them it was very hot and we were covered in wet towel so I did not see a lot as
02:38:30 in wet towel so I did not see a lot as we made our way down the stairs I was nearest to the rail so I could hold on to the farm and next to me this was the same for all of us I do not think I have ever run or moved so quickly in my life
02:38:42 ever run or moved so quickly in my life as we ran down the staircase I remember as we reached each floor being aware of a fireman there guiding us down I do not remember seeing any other fire doors
02:38:53 remember seeing any other fire doors open as we went down as all I really remember seeing were the stairs and the firemen we did not pass any other people on our way down I do not recall seeing hearing tasting or hearing anything
02:39:05 hearing tasting or hearing anything during this journey down by the time we reached the first or ground floor the staircase were very wet and we were led out through Nursia nursery area where the building was completely open and I
02:39:17 the building was completely open and I remember the farm and holding shields above our heads to stop falling debris hitting us as we ran from the tower remember stepping on pieces of the floor that must have come from the building I
02:39:28 that must have come from the building I fell over around the same point something hot fell on me as I ended up with a burn on my left wrist it's jam that's where I wish to end in terms of meeting in that State Road and
02:39:39 terms of meeting in that State Road and thank you very much there is one more statement that we would like to put into the record of this station if I could just hand over to us it become our own church yes Thank You mr. chairman I
02:39:54 church yes Thank You mr. chairman I propose to put into the record the statement of mr. William Thompson wrote I understand that he is also present today and at their inquiry now if we can have reference iws five zeros one five
02:40:07 have reference iws five zeros one five eight
02:40:18 this is the first page of the statement it consists of 11 pages and if we can turn to the 11th page
02:40:41 on the 11th page you can see it's signed with a statement of truth on the 21st of May 2018 and there are five exhibits to the statement WT 1 to WT 5 which are
02:40:53 the statement WT 1 to WT 5 which are from pages 12 to 18 with the same reference I WS 5 zeroes 1 5 8 no mr. Thompson grateful mr. Thompson has been a resident of Granville tower with his
02:41:05 a resident of Granville tower with his partner Mary Hanley and their two daughters since 1997 on the night of the fire mr. Thompson and his partner and one of their daughters and their dog were present mr. Thompson was also a
02:41:16 were present mr. Thompson was also a lead representative of the Granville compact and I propose to read some paragraphs from his statement yes thank you if I can refer you first to paragraph 5 on page 2
02:41:36 you know firstly paragraph 5 mr. Thompson says the renovation work to Granville tower took place over the course of about two years the work was done by Ryden and completed around May
02:41:48 done by Ryden and completed around May 2016 the changes made to my flat with installation of a new heating interface units pipe work radiators and windows to smoke alarms were also installed one in
02:41:59 smoke alarms were also installed one in the kitchen and one in the hallway I remember the London Fire Brigade coming into my flat to install them a few years before the fire they were connected to each other I think the
02:42:10 connected to each other I think the smoke alarm in the kitchen was more of a detector as I don't recall it making any noise it was one in the hallway that would go off when we were cooking if it went off I would have to go to the hallway and press the button on the
02:42:22 hallway and press the button on the alarm to turn it off I think someone checked whether we had smoke alarms after the refurbishment works were completed but he just walked in looked at them and then walked out the alarms
02:42:33 at them and then walked out the alarms didn't go off on the night of the fire but they had gone off before the fire at paragraph six he continues when they installed my windows I had an electric extractor fan fitted to one of the one
02:42:45 extractor fan fitted to one of the one in the kitchen which was still there at the time the fire I didn't have an extractor fan in the bathroom I know other people in the tower had problems with their windows but I didn't I recall
02:42:56 with their windows but I didn't I recall one young woman who sadly passed away in the 14th June Mariam algerie had raised with me a problem with her windows there were drafts coming in through her closed windows and one had also fallen off
02:43:07 windows and one had also fallen off completely she raised it with me as I was the lead representative the ground for compact and tend to provide more detailed relation to this in a later witness statement if I could now take
02:43:19 witness statement if I could now take you to page 6 of the statement and this is where mr. Thompson addresses his experience on the night of 14th June 2017
02:43:29 2017 now paragraph 36 he begins on Tuesday the 13th June 2017 at approximately 11 p.m. I was at home with my partner Mary
02:43:41 p.m. I was at home with my partner Mary and my daughter Laura was not at home as she was at University we also have a dog Kasper who escaped the fire with us I did not notice anything out of ordinary in the landing
02:43:53 anything out of ordinary in the landing or in my flat and everything was normal before I went to bed and around midnight I think my bedroom window in a window in the lounge were left open when I went to bed on Wednesday the 14th June 2017 at
02:44:08 bed on Wednesday the 14th June 2017 at approximately 1:00 a.m. I was dozing off I was awoken back to knocking at my front door I got out of bed and answered the door Tamina's nephew who lived at
02:44:19 the door Tamina's nephew who lived at flat 51 he said there was a fire and asked if we should evacuate the tower I do not see any smoke in the landing nor did I hear any alarms going off I informed him in his nephew what was
02:44:31 informed him in his nephew what was written on the placards posted on the lift walls and that we had been told to remain in our flats in the event of a fire I told him that according to the protocol it was safer to stay in there
02:44:42 protocol it was safer to stay in there and that we had been told that there was a fire in the building it would be contained within the area where it started this seemed to reassure him as he returned to his flat and I returned to bed after approximately 5 minutes I
02:44:56 to bed after approximately 5 minutes I was awoken - louder banging coming from my front door I was annoyed I got out of bed and answered the door - Mina's nephew as soon as I open the front door
02:45:07 nephew as soon as I open the front door I saw black smoke drifting into the landing from the left shaft I'm pretty sure it was coming out of the bottom of the lift door and also coming out of the bottom of the right-hand side of that door I have marked the location where
02:45:20 door I have marked the location where the smoke was coming from as one on exhibit wt1 and have also marked my own location as - I've been shown the fire and smoke descriptors provided by the inquiry and were described the smokers
02:45:33 inquiry and were described the smokers between a image a and image being they were still no alarms going off Amina's nephew had a look of concern on his face and was saying we need to get
02:45:44 his face and was saying we need to get out as soon as I saw the smoke I realized the fire was serious and that we had to get out quickly when I saw it I had a gut feeling it wasn't right because of the black color of it and I
02:45:56 because of the black color of it and I remember getting a whiff of it as well it's hard to describe but it smelled acrid Mary and his daughter's name is redacted were awake
02:46:07 daughter's name is redacted were awake in the flap Nora Nora was away at University I told them what was going on and that we needed to get out I've run back into my bedroom and
02:46:18 I've run back into my bedroom and grabbed my mobile phone and some clothes closing the front door behind us the three of us walked into the landing which is now starting to fill with black smoke the smoke was definitely up to the
02:46:29 smoke the smoke was definitely up to the ceiling at this stage so maybe between B and C on the smoke descriptors as I went to the door to the stairwell I can't recall whether most of the door other doors on my landing were open or shut
02:46:40 doors on my landing were open or shut the only one I knew was shut was Eamon's door on flat 53 because I saw Mina's nephew banging on it Amina told me that her nephew had also alerted all our
02:46:51 her nephew had also alerted all our neighbors on the eighth floor and we all started to make our way as quickly as we could down the stairs the lights were on in the communal hallway I was with Mary name redacted mr. and mrs. Patel I'm
02:47:03 name redacted mr. and mrs. Patel I'm pretty sure I also saw a man coming down behind me as well I'm fairly sure I opened the door to the emergency stairwell and there before I did that it was closed I know that the doors are
02:47:15 was closed I know that the doors are stairwell on each floor closed automatically the lights in the stairwell with dim but I could see clearly they were probably about half as bright as the lights of my living room
02:47:26 bright as the lights of my living room when we first entered the stairwell it wasn't very busy but it started to fill up with residents going down the stairs as we got to the lower floors I did feel hotter as I got down the stairs
02:47:37 did feel hotter as I got down the stairs but this maybe have been because of the number of people in close proximity or the fact that I was trying to get down the stairs quickly I cannot remember seeing any smoke in this stairway there
02:47:48 seeing any smoke in this stairway there was still no alarms going off as we got to the fourth floor we came across firemen making their way up the stairs I only saw firemen going up not any
02:47:59 I only saw firemen going up not any residents I think the firemen were carrying what looked like those hose extensions which were rolled up they were also wearing full kits including breathing equipment at that stage I had to move more slowly down the stairs
02:48:11 to move more slowly down the stairs as I tried to get past them I think they were telling us to stand to one side as they came up the stairs it took us approximately five minutes to reach the ground floor lobby as we
02:48:23 reach the ground floor lobby as we exited the stairway doors and into the lobby I saw a number of firemen and police officers coming in through the main entrance doors to avoid blocking them we ran to the side doors and exited
02:48:34 them we ran to the side doors and exited the tower at the east side facing the leisure center I couldn't ordinarily enter the building through that entrance as my fob didn't work but on this occasion we exited as
02:48:45 work but on this occasion we exited as we didn't need our fobs to get out through this exit I have shown i've been shown a photograph from a CCTV camera which I understand is marked CCTV camera two on the attached exhibit wt3 this
02:48:58 two on the attached exhibit wt3 this image is timed as at 1:25 a.m. before seeing this picture I had estimated my time of exit being about 1:20 a.m. so time I've been shown on the CCTV image
02:49:10 time I've been shown on the CCTV image is probably about right I would then propose to can pick up again at the filming page page 9 paragraph 51 a 50 rather mr. Thompson
02:49:23 paragraph 51 a 50 rather mr. Thompson continued that after he exited the building there were police and firemen directing us towards the leisure center where a number of people had congregated I got to around the green outside the
02:49:34 I got to around the green outside the Leisure Centre which I've marked as one on exhibit wt4 my first thought was to call Edward to fajn who is a good friend of mine I thought that the way the fire was spreading it would reach around to
02:49:45 was spreading it would reach around to his side of the building the west side I called him and asked where he was he told me he was in his flat I told him the building was on fire I can't remember exactly what I said to him but
02:49:57 remember exactly what I said to him but I think was something like get the out of there Eddie this place is going up like a tinderbox I can't recollect him saying anything in reply I don't recall how long after that
02:50:09 reply I don't recall how long after that but within a short time of me calling him I saw him running towards me across the green he threw his arms around me and I clearly remember his first words were you've saved my life man
02:50:20 were you've saved my life man that is all that I propose to read from the statements however I would note for the record that the entire statement is admitted and its contents have been considered carefully by the inquiry yes
02:50:31 considered carefully by the inquiry yes thank you very much well I'd like to thank mr. Thompson and all those who've made statements because it's really valuable to us it takes a lot of time and energy to describe experiences of
02:50:44 and energy to describe experiences of that kind but it's very helpful than the evidence the statements will form part of the evidence in their entirety thanks very much where do we go from here
02:50:55 very much where do we go from here that concludes the vistas on crime for the morning however we would propose to continue reading in some statements in the afternoon from two o'clock if that would be convenient yes so we can break
02:51:08 would be convenient yes so we can break now
02:51:08 now yes it's an early break well it's slightly early but I don't suppose anyone will complain too much now we're stopped now we resume at two o'clock they please okay two o'clock he is thinking