Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Evidence from Hanan Will Habib, resident of Flat 66 (9th floor), describing the night of the fire, stay-put policy, her evacuation, and contact with her brother Abdul Aziz's family trapped on the 21st floor.
00:02:43 you
00:05:52 you
00:10:10 yes good afternoon mr. chairman may I now call Hernan will Harvey
00:10:42 I swear I swear by Allah the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth
00:10:55 thank you very much Bobby you sit down make yourself comfortable can I say I'm sorry that we weren't able to take your evidence last week as you've know there was a last-minute problem and we had to put
00:11:07 last-minute problem and we had to put you off and I'm glad at least we've been able to fit you in today thank you good afternoon good afternoon can you give me inquiry your full name please my name is
00:11:18 inquiry your full name please my name is Hannah and Wahhabi mrs. Wahhabi first thing to do is to I throw the chairman's thanks to you for coming to give evidence today your willingness to continue to help the inquiry is very
00:11:30 continue to help the inquiry is very very much appreciated as I hope you already know the majority of my questions this afternoon we'll focus on the night of the fire itself and I
00:11:41 the night of the fire itself and I appreciate that that is difficult so if at any time you need a break all you need to do is to just let me know all the chairmen and we'll stop okay I'm going to try and
00:11:54 we'll stop okay I'm going to try and keep the questions short and simple if sometimes that doesn't actually happen but if I asked you a question you don't understand then please tell me and I'll
00:12:05 understand then please tell me and I'll ask it in a different way okay what we need to do first of all is just formally put your statements into the inquiry into the record wide and I can I have a mrs. will have his first statement
00:12:17 mrs. will have his first statement please which is iws six zeros seventy four movies it's gonna come up in that sometimes on that comes up on that short
00:12:28 sometimes on that comes up on that short small screen that's on the witness desk if you need a paper copy that bundle that's in front of you will have one in it but can I take you please to the last
00:12:39 it but can I take you please to the last page of the statement
00:12:44 which is page 21 for the record mrs.
00:12:56 which is page 21 for the record mrs. will hobby you've signed and dated every single page of the statement but yeah and we can see that the rubric I believe that the content of this witness st. is true and under that there is a signature can you confirm that that is your
00:13:08 can you confirm that that is your signature mrs. and we see that that's dated the 18th of April 2018 there are two exhibits that go with the statement
00:13:19 two exhibits that go with the statement one is at page 22 of the same reference and the other one is at page 23 the first exhibit is a floorplan of your brother Abdul has is as is Elwha hobbies
00:13:30 brother Abdul has is as is Elwha hobbies flat and the second one's a full plan of your own home we'll come to those in a moment
00:13:35 moment have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes I have and can you confirm that the contents of the statements are true yes okay you've also more recently made
00:13:46 yes okay you've also more recently made a supplementary statement yes I did and that needs to go into the record as well we have please page one of reference I WS 4 zeros 1 1 4 6 and then if we go to
00:14:02 WS 4 zeros 1 1 4 6 and then if we go to the last page of that which is page 10 again every page has been signed and dated but can you confirm that under the line I believe the facts stated this was
00:14:14 line I believe the facts stated this was misstatement are true that that is your signature yes and we see it's dated the 22nd of October 2018 again in relation to that supplementary statement have you had an opportunity to go through it and
00:14:26 had an opportunity to go through it and can you content can you confirm that the contents of that same to true yes I can thank you very much and just for you mrs. Wahhabi and in fact for others who
00:14:38 mrs. Wahhabi and in fact for others who may in due course want me to ask a question you do not wish to be shown any images photographic images but your content to see floor plans ah yes
00:14:52 can I just begin with some background questions if I may in June 2017 your family home was at
00:15:04 in June 2017 your family home was at flat 66 on the ninth floor Grenville tower so right that's correct and when did you first move into that flat in October 2001 and in June 2017 who was
00:15:18 October 2001 and in June 2017 who was living in the flat with you myself my two children and their father and your brother Abdul Aziz lived in flat 182 on the 21st floor
00:15:29 the 21st floor yes he did and he lived there with his wife and his three children right and is it also write that in terms of your more extended family your mother lived nearby
00:15:41 extended family your mother lived nearby and you also had siblings living on the Lancaster West escape that's correct
00:15:49 can I just show you your floor plan which is iws 74 23
00:16:13 can you confirm that your flat was originally a two-bedroom flat wasn't it yes it was and that was the same with your brother's flat wasn't yes but you you both in due course decided to buy
00:16:24 you both in due course decided to buy the third bedroom we did yes if we look at your plan so this is the layout of your flat yes it seems to show if I've
00:16:38 your flat yes it seems to show if I've understood it properly that the living room had a door on it yes it did it is says that right it just it just had a door on it just had a door yeah yeah which opened and opened it yes
00:16:50 yeah yeah which opened and opened it yes yeah and in terms of what you had between kitchen and living room if you wanted to go from living room into kitchen could you act how would you could you access it directly there I didn't have the sliding doors everybody
00:17:01 didn't have the sliding doors everybody else had in this a block I had two doors however I hadn't had a couch so for in front of it so we didn't access them access the kitchen via that way I see so so you'd have to go out into the hallway
00:17:12 so you'd have to go out into the hallway around the corner yes thank you can I then take you please to your witness statement the first one and it's page
00:17:23 statement the first one and it's page two let's look at paragraph six
00:17:33 the part of this paragraph I'd like to draw your attention to mrs. sense all you say that the only signs you remember seeing were put in near the lifts after
00:17:44 seeing were put in near the lifts after the refurbishment yes appreciate I you know I don't want to show you an image but what kind of signs were these that's stay-put policy but as I've actually
00:17:57 stay-put policy but as I've actually come to inquire a few times and listen to other people and I know that char showed you one that was there many years ago and the reflection I remember that one as well when we first moved in okay
00:18:09 one as well when we first moved in okay well can I take that since anxious then yes so let's look at the one that was there at the Taft of the refurbishment so it was it a sort of permanent fixture
00:18:22 so it was it a sort of permanent fixture by the lifts yes it was and do you remember seeing a sign on your floor on my floor and my brother's floor and what about on the ground floor I can't can't remember and before I go on to ask you
00:18:38 remember and before I go on to ask you about that sign you mentioned a sign that Shah had yes produced and that's is
00:18:49 that Shah had yes produced and that's is that shahid Ahmed yes so tell us about that sign so that sign when I first moved in was opposite the lifts under the opposite the lifts you have the floor number my floor numbers originally
00:19:02 floor number my floor numbers originally six and I thought those eighteen just underneath that you had that sign that sure showed you know basically says not to use the lifts in the event of a fire
00:19:15 you say in this paragraph that his signs entrusted us to stay in our flats if there was a fire elsewhere in the building yes so before June 2017 was the phrase they
00:19:28 so before June 2017 was the phrase they put something that was in your mind it was something that was in my mind yes
00:19:35 and was that your understanding of what you should do if there was a the wife should do for two reasons one because of that sign and two because I was
00:19:46 that sign and two because I was previously present during the last five that happened on my floor and what what sort of information did you first of all let's take let's can you remember when
00:19:58 let's take let's can you remember when that fire was 2010 and you say that what did you learn from that fire during that
00:20:09 did you learn from that fire during that fire my son was with my brothers my brother's flats on the 18th have been 18th floor and I had my daughter with me who was just over one their father was
00:20:21 who was just over one their father was also with me in the flats when we learnt there was a fire on our floor Bingham um I knew I couldn't leave without my son so whilst their dad remained on the then
00:20:34 so whilst their dad remained on the then sixth floor to support the neighbors and help them get out I ran up the flights of stairs all the way to the 18th floor with my daughter in my hands and I went to my brother's flat he wasn't there he was at work but his wife his children
00:20:45 was at work but his wife his children were there we did call 999 and and what we called that that's the advice we were given to stay put because it wasn't because I was now in the 18th floor it wasn't if I wasn't there so they said
00:20:57 wasn't if I wasn't there so they said that we should stay put thank you
00:21:03 if we look at that last sentence in that paragraph see what what you say is you've got I never gave any thought to how we would be alerted if there's a
00:21:15 how we would be alerted if there's a fire elsewhere in the building or whether there was a communal fire alarm now I've read that so that you you you never gave any thought to whether there was a communal fire alarm system can you clarify what you mean by this
00:21:27 clarify what you mean by this so what I mean is I I didn't really give any thought that for example if the fire as it did began on the fourth floor that we'd be alerted through a communal siren
00:21:38 we'd be alerted through a communal siren system on the landings for example so that wasn't that was never your expectation was it no not when I know if we go now forward in your statement
00:21:50 we go now forward in your statement please and can we look at paragraphs 15 and 16 which span pages 4 and 5 of the statement
00:22:23 thank you in paragraphs 15 and 16 mrs. Watanabe yes you're discussing the front door yes your flat and you described
00:22:35 door yes your flat and you described that the your front door was replaced yes
00:22:44 and in paragraph 16 you say this about the door there were the three hinges on the door and from the third there was a pole that connected the door to the wall
00:22:55 pole that connected the door to the wall which was meant to make the door closed automatically not long after they installed the door the automatic closing system mechanism broke and the door refused to close at all can you help us
00:23:09 refused to close at all can you help us with and what you say that you you complained and someone came out to address it but they removed the pole entirely rather than fixing it so your door never closed automatically that's correct yes and can you just help you've described
00:23:24 and can you just help you've described three hinges the hinge that had the pole on it was the middle hinge was the middle hinge and and you say that the
00:23:35 middle hinge and and you say that the the pole connected the door to the wall to the door frame so that the the pole led from the door to the door for a tall frame yes that's correct and can you
00:23:47 frame yes that's correct and can you remember when this happened what so when they were installed which I think
00:23:55 think
00:23:55 was before the refurbishment nothing maybe 2012 I'm not sure exactly of the dates when they least old not long after this happened that's when this happened it wasn't long after the doors were
00:24:07 it wasn't long after the doors were changed and did you know what the mechanism was for I didn't know what the mechanism was for initially and the
00:24:19 mechanism was for initially and the reason why I called it's because the front door wouldn't close at all so as soon as that mechanism broke the front door just wouldn't close at all so the front door was slightly ajar I call KC
00:24:31 front door was slightly ajar I call KC TMO who initially refused to come round until I told them my front door is not closing at all and they eventually sends something around as an emergency call out they come out within four hours and
00:24:43 out they come out within four hours and you've just got to sit and wait and when they came they tried to fix it annoying the fix it was to actually take that loose like a long pole they literally goes through the whole door that's what they took out and were
00:24:57 door that's what they took out and were you there when this work was done on your front door I was there yes and did the person doing it explain to you what they were doing no and what difference did you notice in your door afterwards
00:25:09 did you notice in your door afterwards other than that it didn't close automatically the door was much lighter it was much lighter and like I so didn't close automatically yeah and did you after this did you did the person tell
00:25:22 after this did you did the person tell you that they would be back to replace the mechanism or yes they said they would be back and what happened would did anybody aid for first of all did anybody come back at any time
00:25:33 anybody come back at any time no came back so was that the door still in that state in June 2017 yes it was as was my brothers can I ask you about your brothers in a moment yes one more
00:25:45 brothers in a moment yes one more question about your daughter that's fine did you chase it up with anybody that I did I call KCC mo no one came and you
00:25:57 did I call KCC mo no one came and you mentioned your brother's door yes just tell us what the problem was with his flat door
00:26:02 flat door he had the same problem it was the middle hinge same same problem same space that and the same outcome his dog did close so because mine like I said it
00:26:14 did close so because mine like I said it didn't close at all but it just kind of just broke they called them and the same thing happened they just took it out and then it's no longer long closed automatically so you're in June 2017
00:26:26 automatically so you're in June 2017 your brother's dog front door was one that didn't close automatically yes that's correct and your brother's a few floors above you how often did you visit flat his
00:26:38 you how often did you visit flat his flat regularly minimum twice a week
00:26:47 if we look at the bottom of paragraph 16
00:26:53 you say about the front door that it was only ever left open if you and that's a reference to your son that's been redacted was talking with his friends on the landing yes when I was having tea on the landing with the neighbor yes
00:27:04 the landing with the neighbor yes otherwise we kept it close yes does that mean the reference of having teachers I mean that sometimes you'd sit or stand out on the line yes we would my neighbor
00:27:15 out on the line yes we would my neighbor 9 Natalie who left not long before the fire we used to sit on it sander landing with a cup of tea and just have a chat we do with your neighbors and when you did that what was the environment like
00:27:28 did that what was the environment like on the landing so Natalie had that children and so did I we'd leave our front doors open natalie stoll did close actually but she did have her door replaced after the first fire and that's why mine wasn't replace off the first
00:27:41 why mine wasn't replace off the first fire hers was and their children used to just go inside each other's mats and that's why I could keep mine open and did you ever find the the temperature on
00:27:53 did you ever find the the temperature on the landing to be uncomfortable no I'm going to show you now a plan okay and it's one that we've seen before so can
00:28:06 it's one that we've seen before so can we have please Emme t30 is one two five nine three page 12 please I think you may be familiar with this mrs. will Habib yes it's a plan we've shown other
00:28:18 Habib yes it's a plan we've shown other witnesses but it's it's a layout of the fourth floor but it mirrors what we would find as you go further up the tower yes so this would be what you'd find if we went to your floor yes and
00:28:29 find if we went to your floor yes and perhaps if we could just expand the central middle part where it says communal Hall
00:28:39 do you see there you've got the the communal Hall appears in the middle there and yes you've got the list but at
00:28:50 there and yes you've got the list but at the top of the picture and at the bottom can you see the events it smart smoke vents do you see that and do you remember and this is about your floor
00:29:02 remember and this is about your floor but do you remember seeing vents at either end of the communal yes and were those there before the refurbishment you remember scene yes they were did you ever hear any noise from those when they
00:29:15 ever hear any noise from those when they did do something I'm not sure what they did but I know that it's something some change within those events I'm not sure what it was but I remember Linda Prentice who was from riding informing
00:29:26 Prentice who was from riding informing me of that that something was going to be done to them yes with the vents I'm not sure it was so after the reverbs room what did you think those those vents were for well like I said when
00:29:39 vents were for well like I said when there was the there was the first fire I ran up to the 18th floor I did see smoke coming up through the vents so I thought maybe it was would help in future and take you out but I'm
00:29:50 help in future and take you out but I'm not I'm not sure hundred percent what it would do that was just just be guessing
00:29:55 goats going back to the best bit you ran up obviously from your floor up to the 18th yes as it then was said then was yes you say you saw smoke coming through
00:30:07 yes you say you saw smoke coming through the vents on which floor did you see that on the 18th floor I ran from yeah so the fire was on my floor then 6th by the time I'd went up to the 18th it was coming up events and taking you now to
00:30:19 coming up events and taking you now to post the refurbishment yes did you ever hear any noise from those vents I did yes and what kind of noise did you hear I mean I can't really describe it I know
00:30:36 I mean I can't really describe it I know I've heard it being compared to a who've and I'd say yes yes using the Hoover yes as the comparator yeah
00:30:48 as the comparator yeah they've got variable speeds okay full-on or halfway or I would say there are times when it's halfway there was times
00:30:59 times when it's halfway there was times when it's full-on yes a bit audible on both occasions yes you've told us you
00:31:10 both occasions yes you've told us you you would have tea on the landing yes with Natalie was Natalie still living in her flat after the refurbishment yes she was and when you were having tea on the
00:31:21 was and when you were having tea on the landing doors are open and you kids were running around um did you ever feel the movement of air on the landing no is this before before the reefer
00:31:34 no is this before before the reefer after the refurbishment no I wouldn't say so no no um you told us you'd visit your brother regularly and after the
00:31:45 your brother regularly and after the refurbishment he's on the 21st floor yes did you ever notice anything about the vents on the 21st floor they were noisier than than mine the
00:31:57 they were noisier than than mine the mind well so again using our Hoover comparison yes which setting would you put them on the highest highest yes and what
00:32:07 what and this wasn't constant now and again you'd hear then it wasn't constantly noisy but now and again it would be noisy
00:32:15 noisy yeah were there particular times of the day when you'd hear the noise not necessarily but particular times of the year I would mean I work full-time so I it would be in the evening for me or the
00:32:27 it would be in the evening for me or the weekends yeah and what about particular times of the year I couldn't comment on that I'm not sure
00:32:37 thank you can I again take you now back to your statement and I want to go to page five of the statement and look at paragraph 17 please
00:32:58 the point that you make in this paragraph is that after the refurbishment it's something you've told us already that the floors were renumber yes they were and so so you went up to
00:33:12 yes they were and so so you went up to you became floor 9 I did how was the floor number marked on your floor it was stenciled mine was change from 69 and where was the stencil it was where
00:33:23 and where was the stencil it was where the original six was on the stairs it just painted over not the whole wall was painted just the part of the where the number was and then they sent sold in black digit ninth so if someone will I decided to take the stairs up to your my
00:33:36 decided to take the stairs up to your my floor yes before they hit when they reached the stairwell door they would see ya on the wall the number nine absolutely and how big was the stencil I'd say about 15 centimeters in length
00:33:52 if we go to the next page please and can we look at paragraphs 19 to 20
00:34:03 um again this is a part of your statements Wahhabi where you're dealing with the refurbishment you explained that your windows were replaced and then
00:34:16 that your windows were replaced and then you had problems so the first question is were you experiencing problems with your windows in June 2017 yes and one of
00:34:32 your windows in June 2017 yes and one of the problems you highlight in your statement is there's the question of a draft yes so can I take you back to your plan please yes same graph iws 774
00:34:46 plan please yes same graph iws 774 please paragraph 23 if we can page 23 for him
00:34:55 so I think the on the plan was the thesaurus semicircles delayed a window yes and you've got obviously three
00:35:09 yes and you've got obviously three bedrooms yes your property yes can you use that plan to tell us which windows had a draft initially the drafts were in
00:35:25 had a draft initially the drafts were in the bedroom opposites the main door the middle bedroom the last bedroom and the kitchen I call Dryden and they came and
00:35:40 kitchen I call Dryden and they came and use mastic to try and seal the holes as it were my bedroom got better but my
00:35:51 it were my bedroom got better but my son's bedroom which was opposite the front door and my daughter's bedroom which is the the bedroom that we created we're still quite weren't sealed appropriately what about the kitchen the
00:36:02 appropriately what about the kitchen the kitchen wasn't great either but the worst ones were the children's bedrooms any draught problems in the living room so my daughter's bedroom was initially part of the living room so that worked
00:36:14 part of the living room so that worked that window right yeah so we've got what you've highlighted particular is the window in your son's bedroom in the window and your daughter's bedroom yes taking those two yes where would you
00:36:25 taking those two yes where would you where would you find the draft coming in at the bottom of the window ledge the bottom underneath yeah this is it so more to the corners though to the corners of each and under underneath the
00:36:39 corners of each and under underneath the windowsill itself underneath the windowsill itself thank you
00:36:46 can I now just turn if I may to the
00:36:57 can I now just turn if I may to the events of the 13th and 14th of June could I just add something about Windows if that's ok yes I just wanted to mention that I mean if you look at sort of that plan again sorry if you look at the living room the
00:37:10 sorry if you look at the living room the living room yes on the side one of the windows which is on the far right corner if you're looking at from there far right corner that's a window fell off
00:37:23 right corner that's a window fell off completely as in it completely fell off and I cut contact and Ryden to let them know it completely came off the hinge and they came to fix it it then happened again and then they taught us how to fix
00:37:34 again and then they taught us how to fix if it happens again so it it did happen but my son learns how to fix it so whenever it came off the hinges he'd learn how to do himself that's what it's been that's your attention and so if we
00:37:48 been that's your attention and so if we imagine that there's a frame to the win yes and there's been parts that you could own part of it that you could open yes is it that one part would come off the hinge completely yes and so was that
00:38:00 the hinge completely yes and so was that was that still a problem that yes it was and so and you would need your son to be there too yes I would do it myself no okay well thank you for that can I are
00:38:12 okay well thank you for that can I are you okay to for us to go now turn because 13th and 14th of June yes
00:38:18 well could I ask then if we go to page 10 of your statement please
00:38:32 yes now the what you set out in these parts that we pick it up but paragraph 35 but you're explaining that on the
00:38:44 35 but you're explaining that on the evening of the 30th of June you've been at home since 7:00 p.m. and you'd invited friends I think it's for the iftar meal isn't it yes that's correct
00:38:55 iftar meal isn't it yes that's correct and you say that you broke your fast that evening with your guests and with family and then your son left was that
00:39:06 family and then your son left was that to guess the moss yes and then what you continue to say and it's on if we go to page 11
00:39:16 is that your guests left not long before midnight and then your son came home
00:39:28 you've given a time of 12 38 38 that's high another time and I think you you wanted to make sure
00:39:41 and I think you you wanted to make sure he got home before you went to bed yes I can't I could never sleep unless he was home and he knew that so I actually called him to make sure he came home so I could sleep because I had work the
00:39:52 I could sleep because I had work the next day and it was only after he got home that you all then went in bed is
00:40:03 home that you all then went in bed is that right that is correct yeah yeah well if we with that we focus on paragraph 38 and 39 you then say in the
00:40:14 paragraph 38 and 39 you then say in the statement that you heard seller call your name and you remember waking up and smelling smoke and plastic described as a very strong immediate smell yes that's
00:40:26 a very strong immediate smell yes that's correct
00:40:27 correct were you still in your bedroom at this time I was yes do you remember if your bedroom door was open yes it was what about the bedroom window
00:40:37 it may have been slightly ajar I cannot understand remember if we look at paragraph 38 it could be read that you're describing two distinct smells
00:40:49 you're describing two distinct smells the smell of smoke and the smell of plastic yes is that what you meant yes it was like plastic burning that's what it's not like plastic was literally burning um were you aware of any smoke
00:41:04 burning um were you aware of any smoke in your bedroom no you at that point now and could you tell where the smoke was coming from not initially I don't you've
00:41:16 coming from not initially I don't you've described it to us now as it has like plastic burning yes and you described it in yourselves a very strong immediate smell yes can you give us a sense of how
00:41:27 smell yes can you give us a sense of how how powerful that smell was it was extremely powerful as soon as my name was called I open my eye I smelt it straightaway and panic kitten
00:41:46 is it possible for us just to put on one side of the screen paragraph 39 and 40 of this page and on the other side of it
00:41:58 the other side of it the planned misses were hobbies flat which is page 23
00:42:10 in paragraphs that you just told us when the panic started to kick in but in paragraph 39 and 40 you explained that
00:42:21 paragraph 39 and 40 you explained that you you moved ran from your bedroom yes into the hallway yes and then you your son and and and your husband were in the hallway by the
00:42:32 husband were in the hallway by the bathroom yes did seller tell you why he'd called you he thought he thought
00:42:43 he'd called you he thought he thought Zack my son had left something cooking in the oven and just and it burnt or something that happened yeah that's what he thought happened and my son thought
00:42:55 he thought happened and my son thought it was his charger that was was burnt in his he was playing he was awake he was playing PlayStation in his bedroom and and was that the country we've talked
00:43:06 and was that the country we've talked about how powerful the smell what was it comparable to sort of smell that if as charger was burning way more way more my son's bedroom was farthest away from
00:43:17 son's bedroom was farthest away from where it was coming up so and and he was the door and his door was close to my doors open his door this bedroom door was closed so he wouldn't have smelled my ice melts and just just from it
00:43:31 my ice melts and just just from it because obviously names have been redacted on this your daughter's bedroom is the bedroom closest to the living room is correct yes so and your son's bedrooms of the three bedrooms is one furthest to the left on this image that
00:43:43 furthest to the left on this image that is correct were the lights on in the hallway at this time yes they were were there any lights other lights on elsewhere in your home my son's bedroom and yeah the hallway and and my bedroom
00:44:02 and yeah the hallway and and my bedroom obviously at that point if you're standing your home can you remember where you all were in the hallway we were in between the bathroom and the
00:44:14 were in between the bathroom and the toilet just there there's a radiator just there obviously were standing there and is it right from there would you able to get a view into the kitchen No
00:44:30 in paragraph 39 if you draw your attention that you you say that you could see smoke coming from the living room area was the smoke coming into the
00:44:41 room area was the smoke coming into the hallway yes it was and from where you were standing which would I mean we can see a sort of rectangle with the words hallway on it
00:44:53 rectangle with the words hallway on it was that the sort of area in which you were standing yes from that position could you tell how smoke was getting into the living room I couldn't tell how I was kissing in no and aside from this
00:45:05 I was kissing in no and aside from this smoke that you could see coming from the living room area could you see any smoke elsewhere no it was coming from that position it would smoke yeah and ash you just described the
00:45:21 yeah and ash you just described the color of the smoke that and you've mentioned a char other than that is there anything else you remember about the smoke no what about the smell at
00:45:36 the smoke no what about the smell at that time what we're still smelling the plastic and the closer I got to it throughout the strongest moment that became and just to give us a sense of how much smoke they may have been what
00:45:47 how much smoke they may have been what was your visibility like at this point just like I could see but it was like it literally like a cloud just above like the whole ceiling that's what it was like I would say I'm thirty centimeters
00:46:02 like I would say I'm thirty centimeters from the ceiling down I estimate but the ash was was was coming down lower and
00:46:13 ash was was was coming down lower and was there was this these particles of Ashland what were they coming into the hallway where you at this point they were selling that at this point they weren't coming they were just in their living room but they were making their
00:46:24 living room but they were making their way towards the hallway yeah and how much smoke was there in the hallway at this time not much not much in the hallway at this point could you could you see more smoke in the living room yes absolutely absolutely
00:46:38 yes absolutely absolutely I'm now using the plan one of the things you send your savings that the smoke alarms haven't gone off where where were
00:46:49 alarms haven't gone off where where were your smoke alarms located one in kitchen on the ceiling and one in the hallway on the ceiling where the front door is if
00:47:02 the ceiling where the front door is if you walked as if you're going towards my son's bedroom just above there's one there and as far as you were aware were these working in June do that yes they were working they they we'd you know
00:47:15 were working they they we'd you know like I said my son would cook something and and they'd go off so in the past how easy was it to trigger asthma yes so easily they easily triggered they were bedridden quays lee burns Hostin and and
00:47:26 bedridden quays lee burns Hostin and and they do and they trigger in paragraph 40 which we still got up you describe moving into the living room area yes and
00:47:37 moving into the living room area yes and you then say that you could feed field heat in the living room this see and smell smoke yes and there were smoke small particles of ash blowing in from the living room window which we'd left slightly ajar yes was that the only
00:47:49 slightly ajar yes was that the only window that was open that you remember my knowledge yes was it usual for you to close the windows in your home I
00:48:00 close the windows in your home I normally closed them and the reason being is that quite often for some reason people above would throw things out of the window like leftover food and
00:48:11 out of the window like leftover food and at one point a cigarette butt and the wind blew it into our flat so I used tended to close the windows but it was a hot day that day and we just left it
00:48:23 hot day that day and we just left it slightly ajar that's why I said slightly I didn't like leaving the windows open unless unless I was sat near it just in case something came in on your plan your living room would have had three windows
00:48:34 living room would have had three windows yes which one was was left open it's all slightly ajar the one closest to the kitchen
00:48:45 when you were using that window normally how would you open it you pull the handle down and push out so it was one that opened out was like a door yeah
00:48:57 that opened out was like a door yeah could you also with good work in such a way that you could sort of it could be a nose well in sorry if nothing you've got to hair to just visualize that you'd pull it in yeah yes yeah so I'm sorry
00:49:09 pull it in yeah yes yeah so I'm sorry that's probably near windows more than anything but and could it be opened in any way could it be turned into a tilt window no I don't know but your memory
00:49:22 window no I don't know but your memory of it is of a window opened in it could yes it could I didn't ever use it that way
00:49:26 way yes it could I don't never used it that way yes was that another thing that you'd have to ask your son to do yes yeah now what you say about going into
00:49:40 yeah now what you say about going into the limb room area is that you could feel heat yes and you give us an indication of how hot it was when you went this obviously wasn't it obviously
00:49:51 went this obviously wasn't it obviously wasn't heat from the weather you could tell it was heat that was wasn't natural I would say just trying to compare it to
00:50:02 I would say just trying to compare it to something
00:50:07 yeah Michael I like a pretty hot day but it was lit maybe like you don't really open the other he was going to get take out a cake that you've made for example and you feel that heat it was like that
00:50:20 was it's was the heat such that it made you feel uncomfortable at all absolutely you described that there smoking that
00:50:31 you described that there smoking that living or event yes did you have any physical effect on you I I would say it did but I'm not sure if it was the smoke or the fact that I was panicking and I
00:50:43 or the fact that I was panicking and I was literally breathing hyperventilating I like a panic attack was coming on and so I'm not sure there I was struggling because of my my fear or because of the
00:50:54 because of my my fear or because of the smoke so thank you and again what you're describing from the time that you were woken up when you're in the living room
00:51:05 woken up when you're in the living room area is this smell and was it the same smell throughout this yes and it's a this burning plastic yes yes how did that change as you got closer to the
00:51:17 that change as you got closer to the living room it was stronger stronger do you remember going to the living room windows at all yourself yes and at that
00:51:28 windows at all yourself yes and at that time could what could you see from from your living room windows initially when I walk towards a human window I still wasn't sure exactly where it was coming from I went towards the actual window
00:51:41 from I went towards the actual window itself that was slightly ajar and I and I just kind of pulls it open just to have a peek so I think you know what's happening and at that point that's when the flames blew up yeah and my face was
00:51:58 the flames blew up yeah and my face was literally right there can I take that in stages if I guess one of the things that one that you're you're the answer you just give them help us clear up is it a
00:52:09 just give them help us clear up is it a detail in your statement cause in your statement that you say you you're not sure whether it was yes your son yes oh he was focused so I did do that but that also went to the window so we did it separately
00:52:20 separately I'm a hundred percent I did that he said my mama hundred said I did it so we've both been to the window we've had a discussion since yes and so if we look
00:52:31 discussion since yes and so if we look about what you say about the flames that they shot up on the outside of the building in front of our living window so this is again just reminders which
00:52:42 so this is again just reminders which window we're talking about now this is the window close to the kitchen right
00:52:48 the flames you described as orange red and then you shut the window yeah I was scared I closed it did you see the flame
00:52:59 scared I closed it did you see the flame spread any further they were going up the flames were going up they're traveling up the building right and and on the outside once you shut the window and step back did they carry on you have
00:53:11 and step back did they carry on you have lean you look like they were traveling up yes whilst you're in your living room did you have any sense of what might be happening in your kitchen no I didn't even think they would think about olives
00:53:23 even think they would think about olives not until I went into the kitchen can I go then two paragraphs 41 and 42 on page
00:53:37 go then two paragraphs 41 and 42 on page 12 your statement
00:53:45 this is where there's a discussion yeah with your son and his father about what to do and you say that Salo was adamant that the procedure was
00:53:58 Salo was adamant that the procedure was sustained now you used the word procedure what what do you think he meant by procedure that's what you said well he may be it's good to mention that
00:54:09 well he may be it's good to mention that he is actually a school caretaker so I assume he knows knew the policy from being it working in this school but also obviously would that poster that was on
00:54:20 obviously would that poster that was on the side outside the lifts which we had a discussion about because it wasn't there for a long time before what happened that night so he was he said that is that's that's what we need to do with must stay put
00:54:31 we need to do with must stay put that's what we have that's what we have to do and what were your thoughts about what to do next I know honesty I was I I say in this
00:54:42 I know honesty I was I I say in this that I I was really I was really scared I was really scared and I was confused I wasn't sure what to do I felt I couldn't
00:54:53 wasn't sure what to do I felt I couldn't make any decisions and my son took over so what made you decide to leave the flat my son I think you described in there as he was the adult if he was he
00:55:07 there as he was the adult if he was he was and you described your son going to the front door to look and he did not be he did he did what we should have done which was he went out and he checked and made sure it was okay and safe for us to
00:55:19 made sure it was okay and safe for us to leave the building before he came back and at this point my daughters were still asleep so she was unaware of what was going on although her bedroom was close to the flames at that point and it
00:55:32 close to the flames at that point and it was his all he wants to save her make sure she was okay and that's what he did he ran to her but he grabbed her but where were you when he went to it's cuz on the plan I'll
00:55:45 he went to it's cuz on the plan I'll bring you back up if you want to see it but on the plan you've been in in the living room yeah his sons gone to the front door where were you when he went off to do that did you see that's when I I believe that's why I check the kitchen
00:55:57 I believe that's why I check the kitchen can I'll come to the kitchen amazing but do you remember when your son came back whether he told you anything about the conditions in the communal lobby he just said it was safe to leave that's what he said
00:56:08 said well I'm going to turn now to the kitchen but mr. chairman I'd noticed the time we I think probably coming up to 45 minutes and I don't know whether you're going to a new subject so yes we'll stop
00:56:27 going to a new subject so yes we'll stop down then I'm gonna have to ask you please not to talk too annoying about your evidence yes point around to the room yeah well we'll start again at 10 past 3:00 right dude just hotel notice and you go thank
00:56:41 dude just hotel notice and you go thank you very much
00:56:54 right ten plus three
01:09:13 right would you like to ask the witness to come back please okay
01:09:39 yes Thank You mr. chairman and could we have please page 12 of mrs. Wong hobbies first statement and paragraphs 41 and 42
01:09:53 first statement and paragraphs 41 and 42 please mrs. Wahhabi before the short break we I think going about to move on to what you saw in the kitchen yes and
01:10:07 to what you saw in the kitchen yes and if I direct you to paragraph 42 yes what you're there describing is taking a mobile focus off the charger yes and
01:10:19 mobile focus off the charger yes and then you say you stay behind to close the in you're saving that says the windows in yes the kitchen has been open as it was a hot day yes so taking that
01:10:33 as it was a hot day yes so taking that in stages again I mean firstly when you're referring to windows is that there's one window but different parts to it is that right
01:10:44 different parts to it is that right there's a window in the kitchen that's what I was yeah it's yeah yeah and you remember that being left open yes yes what you say is that you could
01:10:57 yes yes what you say is that you could see ash in the kitchen blowing in from the window yes settling on the floor yes and the smoke was getting thicker yes it was still mostly white but getting a bit grayish yes now to get into the kitchen
01:11:10 grayish yes now to get into the kitchen you told us that from you in the way arrangement of your home because your doors the doors between kitchen and
01:11:21 closed you would have had to walk out of the living room yes and then through the kitchen to into the via the kitchen doors that's correct yes and when you went to deal with the kitchen window
01:11:33 went to deal with the kitchen window where was everyone else at that point I believe that's what the Zack had gone out they've already by then was my children had left by then and their
01:11:46 children had left by then and their father was still run the round the hallway and in between kitchen I'm not sure exactly where he was speak honest around there somewhere do you remember him being in the kitchen at the same time as you he
01:11:57 the kitchen at the same time as you he was behind me what you've also said is you could I could still see ash in the kitchen yes had you seen Ashley in the kitchen before yes because I've been in before
01:12:09 before yes because I've been in before and I would know I went in again to close the window I see so yes so in terms of your moving around yes you've gone from bedroom into hallway yes then into the living room yes then into kitchen yes and then I do
01:12:23 yes then into kitchen yes and then I do a kind of a living room kitchen living room kitchen for a little bit yes and so what what on your visits the kitchen you'd notice that ash was coming through yes because I like I said you thought
01:12:35 yes because I like I said you thought someone who'd left me in the oven but it but nothing was F in the oven it and only it wasn't coming from there it wasn't normal but could you see smoke
01:12:46 wasn't normal but could you see smoke coming through the window yes because also in the way in the kitchen we have the vent vent so that way as she was coming through there as well so I'm gonna try without a
01:12:59 well so I'm gonna try without a photograph to describe kitchen window to you so yeah if you imagine that there's there's two panels to it on the left a panel that one could open and on the right a smaller panel but with a vent
01:13:12 right a smaller panel but with a vent above it so we had on the left window that didn't open on the right window that opened and just above it was the vent so but it wasn't it was to the
01:13:27 vent so but it wasn't it was to the right yeah so but when it was in the window itself or to the right of the window it's the right of the window so leave okay thank you thank you for being
01:13:42 leave okay thank you thank you for being trying to be very clear but you say you assume smoke was coming through that do you have a recollection of smoke coming through that event smoke was coming
01:13:53 through that event smoke was coming through the window so whether it's the vent or the window that was slightly a job smoke was coming in and done more than one trip haven't you to the kitchen yes so on your last trip
01:14:04 to the kitchen yes so on your last trip that's to close that window supposed initially no look a few that's what was going on had there been a change in the amount of smoke coming into the flat yes living room and and kitchen well like I
01:14:19 living room and and kitchen well like I said I could still see I could still see see where I was was in front of me and was it the same smell all the time that you were picking up the but in plastic
01:14:31 you were picking up the but in plastic yes it was did he get weaker or stronger stronger it just got stronger now when you went to close that kitchen window yes could you see any flames outside not
01:14:44 yes could you see any flames outside not the kitchen window no I didn't I didn't with the other one I kind of opened it and and then it kind of shot up but with this one I didn't I didn't even just kind of just did that side even look I
01:14:55 kind of just did that side even look I was just too busy trying to close it that even did the handle feel hot to the touch at all I don't believe so so I don't believe so at that time what
01:15:08 so I don't believe so at that time what was the temperature like in the kitchen I'd stayed just like I said with regards to an oven yeah I would say it was the same I'd like if I may to show you what
01:15:21 same I'd like if I may to show you what we've called there's a smoke and flame descriptor which is a diagram it's not a photograph but it's a diagram of different levels of smokey are you okay looking at that yes all right
01:15:32 looking at that yes all right could I have please iron q500 six page two please and if we just miss while we direct your attention towards the graphics okay let's put in a good time
01:15:48 graphics okay let's put in a good time all right well I won't I'm sorry I won't no no I apologize I should have asked more clear yeah [Music]
01:16:01 so are you okay to continue yeah well let's move on to just back to paragraph 42 if we look at that okay
01:16:22 I think on your children that's left by now have yes so it's it's just you and that their father in the house yes and you say if
01:16:35 father in the house yes and you say if you look at the portion of the statement is on there the right-hand side of screens were looking at that he picked up his house keys from the key holder by the front door slammed the door behind
01:16:46 the front door slammed the door behind him yeah he didn't point out he didn't even take his phone and just as we left our flat a smoke alarm went off when he slammed the door shut did he lock the
01:16:59 slammed the door shut did he lock the door so it automatically closes yes yes but if I was standing outside that door I couldn't push it open again no no and
01:17:13 I couldn't push it open again no no and the smoke alarm that you're referring to inside our flats yeah which one was that they I'm not sure she was behind me then but they tend to go off together so as soon as one went off they both went off
01:17:25 soon as one went off they both went off normally when we'd burnt some toast sort of a have you in the kitchen the kitchen would stop but then it would just kind of signal the other one the old store as well so you've told us about we've gone
01:17:38 well so you've told us about we've gone through the way you were moving around your flat yes and this is the point at which you're you're leaving yes by that time and by the time the smoke
01:17:50 by that time and by the time the smoke alarm has gone off how much smoke was there in the flat by that's all the time so I'm taking you to the time when you're leaving yes the flat yes you've
01:18:01 you're leaving yes the flat yes you've shut the kitchen window yes the smoke alarm has gone off yes can you do you have a estimate how much smoke there was in the flat by this point so the so the living room at this point and
01:18:13 the so the living room at this point and the kitchen you could it's like you could walk through it so murmur I said before it was just like that just at the ceiling it was all around now in the living room and the kitchen and the ash and the smoke was all around and it was
01:18:24 and the smoke was all around and it was coming towards the hallway so if you're standing the hallway looking back into the kit towards the kitchen if you looked in the kitchen it would be full of smoke yeah with ash as
01:18:37 would be full of smoke yeah with ash as well with ash as well and then the living room in the same way yes and that was progressively moving towards you in the hallway yes that was coming towards the hallway yeah by the time you were leaving was it
01:18:49 yeah by the time you were leaving was it already in the hallway just at the beginning so see whether whether the kitchen door is just there it's coming towards the the lavatory but not the
01:19:03 towards the the lavatory but not the whole hallway just fine at the beginning of energy so just as if it's it's almost coming out of the kitchen yes the
01:19:17 coming out of the kitchen yes the temperature in the in the flat at this point what was it like the parts I said were the hottest of the weather living room and the kitchen everything
01:19:31 living room and the kitchen everything else seems fine if I take you now to page 13 and paragraph 43
01:19:44 if we go from 43 down to 46 please
01:19:54 so this is the part of your statement where you deal with your you'll exit from your flatters and from the tower and you describe leaving your flat with
01:20:09 and you describe leaving your flat with your children's father and then you say there was a bit of smoke on the ninth floor landing but not as much as in our flat is that when you say not as much as
01:20:20 flat is that when you say not as much as in our flesh is that the amount as much as it was at the time that you left in your flat yes the Sun we left my flat yes so you're now in the communal area yes what was the visibility like in the
01:20:32 yes what was the visibility like in the litany
01:20:33 litany I could see yeah so the smoke that you could see where was it just above and with the lines it wasn't all around everyone I thought was in my flat yeah
01:20:44 everyone I thought was in my flat yeah it was like yeah just just ceiling could you see where it was coming from I didn't know obviously I wasn't such a panic I didn't even look to see what's
01:20:55 panic I didn't even look to see what's coming from
01:21:01 with the lights on in that lap comunitaria yes they were and this smoke that you you encountered in the in the
01:21:13 that you you encountered in the in the communal area can you tell us anything about it what color was it by comparison to the smoke in your flat it wasn't wasn't grey like it was get as
01:21:25 it wasn't wasn't grey like it was get as it was getting darker in my flats it was
01:21:29 quite light colored yeah it wasn't chromatic yeah some some witnesses have
01:21:40 chromatic yeah some some witnesses have conservative compared it to some smoke that they've encountered to cigarette smoke was there more smoke than that I'd say cigarette smoke yeah yeah and you
01:21:53 say cigarette smoke yeah yeah and you remember if it had a smell at all I don't know how to smell it on landing no
01:22:00 and whilst you were in in the communal area did you see anyone else on the floor on the landing no did you hear any
01:22:11 floor on the landing no did you hear any noises no and what was the temperature like in the communal area normal did you hear the vents at all I didn't pay attention if we look at paragraphs 44 -
01:22:26 attention if we look at paragraphs 44 - 45 that's where you describe moving into the stairwell and then using the stair okay so how do you use the stairwell before before the refurb I would hide it
01:22:42 before before the refurb I would hide it I hardly ever used it because I intended to go I leave work really early pretty early and I come back pretty late and I know there are lots lots of times when
01:22:53 know there are lots lots of times when the lifts wasn't working that they tend to happen in school runs or during the day and I wasn't home then and there were times when like my mum has Parkinson's and dementia Syme also a carer there's times when I'd sleep at my
01:23:05 carer there's times when I'd sleep at my mum's they wouldn't be at at in Grendel Tower
01:23:09 Tower and so it happened those days a little so yeah and in terms of that when you you got out into the stair work you say
01:23:23 you got out into the stair work you say in paragraph 45 that the lights were on and I could see where I was going I could see smoke but it wasn't thick and black the smoke got thicker as I
01:23:35 black the smoke got thicker as I descended but I could see through it and could always see the steps in front of me what color was the smoke that you encountered on the staircase not
01:23:46 encountered on the staircase not initially on my floor but as I descended I could start seeing the smoke it wasn't initially on the on the ninth floor where I was but as I went down I could see smoke and it was getting darker in
01:23:57 see smoke and it was getting darker in the fact so we like like it was in my flat and then was getting worse than white left in my flats so darker not black like everyone's mentioned but I could see where I was going so I just
01:24:08 could see where I was going so I just say grayer so when you go down to your floor onto the stairwell was that clear that was clear my floor was clear and then but then as you descended you saw sit and did it get darker and darker as
01:24:21 sit and did it get darker and darker as you went further down yes can you do appreciate it's difficult doing the best you can can you remember how many flights you went down before you encountered smoke I can't sorry can you
01:24:32 encountered smoke I can't sorry can you remember where the smoke was at its darkest or most intense I mean sense obviously cuz I went past the the floor where the where the fire had started so maybe a couple of four before I got there
01:24:43 before I got there three floors before I got there and then yeah and did the smoke that you encountered in the staircase have any particular smell as well it was burning
01:24:58 particular smell as well it was burning but the smell of burning plastic was more prominent in my flats than it was on the staircase I could smell burning but the plus that plastic smell was worn
01:25:11 but the plus that plastic smell was worn in my foot within my flats in your recollection is that a smell that you associated with your flat yes yes I associate with my flat and I also
01:25:22 yes I associate with my flat and I also associate with once I've exited the building um I drew your attention see you say you could cut and you could feel heat in the stairwell yes um how did the
01:25:35 heat in the stairwell yes um how did the temperature in the stairwell compare with the temperature in in the landing on your floor Oh hotter hotter yes and how did it you told us about the temperature in your kitchen and your
01:25:47 temperature in your kitchen and your living room yes at about the time that you believe yes how did he compare with that it was hotter than that and all the
01:26:00 that it was hotter than that and all the way down you never had any difficulty seeing through the smoke did you have to use anything to cover your mouth with I used my headscarf but not because I wasn't consistent with it because I was
01:26:11 wasn't consistent with it because I was panicking so as you the holding on to the railing or back up to hold my scarf so I'd use my headscarf if I cover my mouth really I didn't take a tea towel or anything like that I don't even think
01:26:23 or anything like that I don't even think about that when I when I exited
01:26:29 now if we look at 46 you describe seeing firefighters at the door to floor four and you say they were holding the the
01:26:41 and you say they were holding the the door open yes and just so that we can be here was that was that where you encountered the thickest yes that was where encounter focus mode once you've got past flow floor for what was there still smoke on the lower floors then it
01:26:54 still smoke on the lower floors then it became less and less became less
01:27:07 we go to the next page please look at paragraph 47
01:27:19 and what you saying paragraph four said is that that by this time my throat was extremely dry and burning from the smoke which smoke had caused that effect so
01:27:32 which smoke had caused that effect so initially obviously it started within my flats and then once I was going past go at descending down towards the fourth floor it was then and and I if you
01:27:43 floor it was then and and I if you before when you show that part of that paragraph where I was waiting to where they were firefighters holding the door I waited there for a bit because I
01:27:54 I waited there for a bit because I couldn't get past the firefighters and why couldn't you get past the firefighter because that one was holding the door open so the doors are landing sorts of the stairs one was holding open and another one had had a hose and he
01:28:05 and another one had had a hose and he was aiming towards the flames and here's but his but he was like on his knees and his legs were were across the small landing on the step but on the staircase
01:28:17 landing on the step but on the staircase not within the landing where the where the flats are and something I couldn't get past them and why my concern was that they're going to tell me to go back and so I stood there for a little while before as always trying to calculate and
01:28:31 before as always trying to calculate and I was quite lucky in the fact that he tried to the firefighter moved his legs slightly where he was trying to aim at the flames and when he did I he was a bit of space so I jumped over hit over
01:28:42 bit of space so I jumped over hit over him well not him completely but his legs and and that's how I got out you're going down the stairs and at this point where you pause were you aware of people above you coming down as well no were
01:28:56 above you coming down as well no were you aware of anyone else being in the stairwell at the time no other than these firefighters no one else I appreciate it it's difficult to us to make time but how long do you think it
01:29:08 make time but how long do you think it took you to go from your front door to leaving the tower I wouldn't say it's been that long I was in flown trial fight and I was flying so yeah I
01:29:19 fight and I was flying so yeah I wouldn't say was that long
01:29:24 and other apart from what you described about your throat being dried did the smoke that you encountered have any other effect on you
01:29:39 I want to move on now to a different topic and that's once you've left the tower and it's your contact with your brother and his family you okay for me to ask you some questions about this and
01:29:55 to ask you some questions about this and this is obviously miss Wahhabi once once and again if you ever want a break at any point just let me know but you've left the tower and in your statement you describe contact between yourself your
01:30:06 describe contact between yourself your brother and his wife and those are direct conversations that you had yes can you remember how many times you called your brother's phone from from my
01:30:18 called your brother's phone from from my phone me personally I would say four times twice I spoke to him it's my brother and twice I spoke to my sister-in-law can I take you to part of
01:30:30 sister-in-law can I take you to part of your statement where you deal with a call yes and it's part page 15 paragraph 51 please
01:30:44 this is where you call your brother and you're able to give a time for it in your statement because it's just after
01:30:55 your statement because it's just after your son took a photo on your phone yes and the time that you give is in paragraph 50 and it's that photograph was taken at 1:25 a.m. yes so was this
01:31:07 was taken at 1:25 a.m. yes so was this the first time that you spoke to your brother yes after the fire after you found out about the fire you say that he was aware of something going on did he
01:31:20 was aware of something going on did he tell you if he could see any signs of the fire no did he tell you where he and the family were in the flame for at 1a2 at that time at that time they were in between the kitchen and the living room
01:31:36 you then and it's also in this paragraph you describe a second call to your brother and you're given a time at that at about 1:30 a.m. just to help us just
01:31:49 at about 1:30 a.m. just to help us just how are you estimating the time there I'm estimating the time just because I know how long it was for my first made the first call that's how he estimated
01:32:00 the first call that's how he estimated it so you're taking that call as your bed as my benchmark absolutely what your brother told you then was that he couldn't leave yes because there was too
01:32:17 couldn't leave yes because there was too much black smoke yes and they couldn't see and they couldn't breathe yes so and you made the point in your statement that was very different from the smoke that you encountered it was absolutely and that was the description he was
01:32:29 and that was the description he was giving to you was it yeah did your brother tell you where he'd encountered this black smoke he had come out of the flats and was and attempted to go down the stairs and did he tell you whether
01:32:40 the stairs and did he tell you whether the smoke was in the communal area on his floor or whether he got to the stairwell
01:32:47 stairwell he got this he did get to the stairwell he gots the stairwell yes and then he came back but I believe that the black smoke was with both places yeah did did your
01:33:01 was with both places yeah did did your brother tell you whether there was any smoke coming into his flat at all it wasn't at that point now
01:33:12 if we go to page 16 and just look at the top of the page
01:33:27 can you see mrs. Wahhabi just the second sentence you say I called my brother's phone back for the third time and this time your sister-in-law yes picked up the call yes um again I appreciate time
01:33:41 the call yes um again I appreciate time is difficult but you you've used that photo that your son took us as the benchmark you've been able to say your second call was at 1:30 a.m. about that yes can you remember how soon after that
01:33:53 yes can you remember how soon after that you made them there then made the for third call not long it would have been about roughly 140 yeah it wasn't that long at all
01:34:04 long at all no the information you got from your sister-in-law was that the emergency services said they were coming to rescue them yes and I could hear my brother speaking to emergency services in the background yes at that time at that time
01:34:17 background yes at that time at that time and was he then relaying information to your sister-in-law who's all talking to you who's talking to me yes that's good it was in effect it was it could be
01:34:29 it was in effect it was it could be described as three-way conversation so emergency service to speak to your brother
01:34:34 brother yeah who's speaking to his wife he's speaking to you yes and so when you say that foul Xia said the emergency services had said they were coming to rescue them that was what she was getting from Abdul Aziz
01:34:46 getting from Abdul Aziz she was get from a mental disease I mean I could hear him in the background talking yeah so I know that it wasn't just him that was talking but the
01:34:57 just him that was talking but the information was being relayed mm and did she give you any more information about what else they've been told they had been told to stay put they were told to
01:35:09 been told to stay put they were told to stay in their living room they were then told that to move from room to room they were told to stay low they were told
01:35:24 were told to stay low they were told they were coming to save them
01:35:28 at that time and you've very helpfully tried to estimate the time at 140 did your sister and I'll tell you anything about the conditions in their flat at that time not in not on that
01:35:40 flat at that time not in not on that call later on yes is that the net the fourth call yeah there's another call yeah well can I take you to I mean just
01:35:53 yeah well can I take you to I mean just before I take you to that call where where was when when she was speaking to you where was your sister-in-law at that time I could see her in the window she was in the living room she was in the
01:36:06 flat 182 so it was the second window along the fate if I'm facing um I was on this Sports Center side the leisure center she was the second window long as
01:36:17 center she was the second window long as I was conversing with her I could physically see her and there is a photo that why I've given to the police which is a photo we've taken of her as she is standing in that window my nephew who came on site took a photo as I was
01:36:28 came on site took a photo as I was having a conversation with her can I take you just to power about 55 your statement please
01:36:41 this is the last call that you speak about and yes
01:36:52 you give a time in that paragraph that it's a 2:15 a.m. how are you able to estimate that time I can't remember how
01:37:07 estimate that time I can't remember how estimated that time I'm not sure if it was around a photo that was taken to a few folks State on my phone including a video recording it wouldn't it on those times so that's how I made it so when I
01:37:19 times so that's how I made it so when I first did this statement I think I was a bit more stronger and I could look at images and I could look at photos especially know that they hadn't been found all I could do is go and stand by that Tower I can't do that now so I think when I estimate at that time I was likely look
01:37:31 estimate at that time I was likely look at the photos and I could see what time they were made and what time against the police I can't do that now so I can't give you hundred percent no that's not thank you and and what I think is worth
01:37:43 thank you and and what I think is worth pointing out of course is that other members of your family were there with you yes and they would have been contact as well with yes they were they were in contact with him as well and so what
01:37:58 contact with him as well and so what your sister-in-law picks up and and outside you you mentioned your system he knows with you yes yes and she spoke mm yes it was on my phone I had the phone
01:38:10 yes it was on my phone I had the phone because I promised them that I would call them when I saw the flames approached their flats I didn't understand the severity of the black smoke I didn't understand that I just
01:38:21 smoke I didn't understand that I just thought it was the flames like it was in 2010 I didn't know anything about the chemicals because that's I could just visually see so I promised them that I would call them when the flames were
01:38:32 would call them when the flames were approaching their flat because the flames are on my side on the six on the sixth corner and so as the flames progressed up to the tower it did like an upside down L shape and it went across the top and my brother's on that
01:38:45 across the top and my brother's on that there and I promised her that as soon as it's coming I called her when it was next door so would have been flat 181 and then I said now it's Getz and I said it's coming to 182 so I said as soon as I call you need to get out and that was
01:38:57 I call you need to get out and that was my promise that when I called her and I was getting a bit panicky as my sister Amina who came to support me at that point spoke to her and I could hear the whole con
01:39:05 whole con about the fact that if I had now reached their flat it was in their kitchen yeah you say that you said to them to get out
01:39:20 you say that you said to them to get out yes and your sister-in-law said that they were trying they were told to stay put did did they tell you whether there was anything preventing them from getting out the cause the 99 calls they
01:39:35 getting out the cause the 99 calls they were telling me to stay put that was the only prevention with them they didn't say it was black and I know that my nephew was scared my youngest nephew so trying to calm him down so I could
01:39:46 so trying to calm him down so I could hear that but from my understanding of conversations with them and the family around we were talking tonight and I was their life so I heard them was that they were told to stay put and they believed
01:39:57 were told to stay put and they believed they were going to be rescued did they tell you and you've mentioned some of it in this paragraph with did they tell you what the conditions were like in the communal area this time no and did they
01:40:10 communal area this time no and did they mention anything about the smoke that they were encountering apart from right the beginning when I said it was black yes but but but then that was right the beginning we talked about the black it being black they couldn't see and they couldn't breathe properly yes they did we know that information to me but that
01:40:22 we know that information to me but that was outside not within the flat yeah and and that was from your that was the information they gave you in in the first court you first called to me directly and there was the information
01:40:33 directly and there was the information that yeah that was information they gave me but then with regards to the fire then that was later flown to find the kitchen can I finally just move on to just ask you a question about a one last
01:40:47 just ask you a question about a one last topic please how long did you remain outside the tower that night all night and while starting after that did you
01:40:58 and while starting after that did you have any contact with anyone from our bkc or the TM oh I'll be Casey didn't come and find me I became she were not there at all it was my nephew that opened Portobello rugby club for us to find refuge and that was going to be one
01:41:11 find refuge and that was going to be one of my questions because you mentioned the opening of the road Club and did you arrange that through your nephew for that to be my nephew
01:41:24 there the the caretaker possible Rugby Club is an acquaintance of my nephew nephews and so he proceeded to knock on the door so that it so we'd have somewhere to go because we were we were
01:41:35 somewhere to go because we were we were literally everywhere all over the streets my daughter at that point to be taken to my sister's house and Mina's house because she wasn't wearing any shoes and she wasn't dressed
01:41:46 shoes and she wasn't dressed appropriately so my nephew then ran at some point when he realized we're not we're not getting in we're not getting any help so he went and knocked on the
01:41:57 any help so he went and knocked on the doors he initially blocks in the door somebody works our bkc who directed him to the caretaker and the caretaker then opened that opened up the portly Rugby
01:42:08 opened that opened up the portly Rugby Club forum for us to have some refuge but I still didn't go in initially because I needed to find my brother and his family whilst you were outside maybe
01:42:19 his family whilst you were outside maybe you were resident at the tower yes come out of the tower yes did anyone ask for your flat number or floor number the police and how soon after you'd come out of the building did
01:42:31 after you'd come out of the building did somebody ask you for those details I would say maybe an hour because the police were moving us and then they were they realized there's some of us warm pajamas and so that the police took my
01:42:45 pajamas and so that the police took my name and my flat number mr. chairman those are all the questions I have from his hobby may I ask for a short brain just to check if anybody else has supplementary questions yes Robbie will
01:42:59 supplementary questions yes Robbie will have a very short break now to give mr. Robert achar to review his questions and any that may be suggested by others so I'm going to ask you to leave us for five minutes we'll come back at 10:00 to
01:43:11 five minutes we'll come back at 10:00 to 4:00 and see us groaning you further questions that's right thank you okay we'd like to give you the ocean please
01:43:32 10 to 4 then please
01:48:08 you
01:49:53 you
01:50:17 yes was a couple more master does yes of course
01:50:41 I think there are few yes I wrote thank you mr. Jim mrs. Wahhabi thank you for coming back just I want you to pick up two matters
01:50:53 just I want you to pick up two matters that from some of the answers that you've given do you remember that you described an earlier fire in the tower yes which took you up to the what was then the 18th floor to your brother's
01:51:05 then the 18th floor to your brother's flat yes and you recall that on that occasion you saw smoke coming through the vents yes and that was on the 18th floor yes just so that we can get it
01:51:17 floor yes just so that we can get it very clear was the smoke coming into the 18th floor lobby yes and how much smoke did you see not not no comparison to
01:51:28 did you see not not no comparison to what happened on the 14th of June it was very light very light like like cigarette smoke like you said earlier I'd say like that cigarette smoke it
01:51:41 I'd say like that cigarette smoke it wasn't all that across a ceiling it just lit up there to see it coming up through the vent and just beginning to them but not all the way up so you didn't see it spread through the lobby I didn't is coming out of the vent you know it's an
01:51:52 coming out of the vent you know it's an obviously I went into the flat and remained with him yes thank you second topic is in relation to back to the 14th of June in your descent and it
01:52:03 the 14th of June in your descent and it may be have been me confusing you a little bit but you remember that you told us that as you descended the smoke got thicker yes and on the transcript of
01:52:16 got thicker yes and on the transcript of today's proceedings you're recorded saying that the smoke was thickest a few floors above floor four which is where you saw the fireman but you also said that smoke was fixed at floor four no I
01:52:28 that smoke was fixed at floor four no I mean it was it was big it was getting thicker thicker the above floor four but once they got to floor for that that's when it was the thickest thank you very much for clearing that up can i my last
01:52:41 much for clearing that up can i my last question to you is this and before I ask it can I thank for coming and giving evidence today we all appreciate that it's a difficult
01:52:52 all appreciate that it's a difficult task and I'm really very grateful for it but what I want to do is ask you this if you put aside what you've put in your statement and your supplementary
01:53:03 statement and your supplementary statement and put aside the answers that you've given to my questions today and again it's taking you back to the night itself but is there anything else that you saw or heard or smelt on that night
01:53:16 you saw or heard or smelt on that night that you think it important to draw to the attention of the channel I do have something I prepared it if that's okay because I'm like remembrance and I wanted to read is that okay yes thank
01:53:28 wanted to read is that okay yes thank you it's not very long just made it why do the big so I could see it and I'm
01:53:39 do the big so I could see it and I'm addressed it to you the chairman it's Martin mobic I'm normally very quiet and don't like making a fuss I appreciate
01:53:51 don't like making a fuss I appreciate this opportunity to have my say and have prepared a statement that I'd like to read I am here but my brother and his family are not I need to be his voice
01:54:03 family are not I need to be his voice because I know if it was the other way around he would be mine he would fight for me I know he would there are four brief points I want to make the first
01:54:17 brief points I want to make the first thing I want to talk about is the previous fire in 2010 as you know there was a fire which we just talked about on 30th of April 2010 this fire was on my
01:54:28 30th of April 2010 this fire was on my floor when I edited my flats in 2010 the flames were quite intense my son was upstairs playing with his cousin on the 18th floor
01:54:39 cousin on the 18th floor so I ran rather an exit stairs my brother's flats carrying my daughter in my arms and ivory said about what the 99 call said to stay put there
01:54:55 what the 99 call said to stay put there was some smoke on the upper floors that came through the ventilation system but it was not black you could see where you were going and the fire did not spread there was limited damage to my own flat
01:55:07 there was limited damage to my own flat on the 6th floor from the 2010 fire and I did suffer some smoke inhalation as did others but there is no comparison with what happened on the 14th of June
01:55:19 with what happened on the 14th of June what happened that night was very different i evacuated at 1:21 and called my brother not long after he said the smoke on the 21st floor was already
01:55:30 smoke on the 21st floor was already black and they were struggling to breathe outside the flats why want to bring to your attention is that this is a massive change in the behavior of the fire from the 2010 to 2017 fire the
01:55:45 fire from the 2010 to 2017 fire the refurbishment changed the building and had the fire act differently there was no question in my mind about that fact the second issue I want to mention is
01:55:56 the second issue I want to mention is the lack of help from our be KC or KC tmon the night like I said before it was my nephew open ports better Rugby Club they did not help us when we were
01:56:07 they did not help us when we were raising concerns or asking for help before the fire they did not help us during the refurbishment when we raised our voices and our fears about safety they did not help us on the night of the
01:56:19 they did not help us on the night of the fire I'm asking you as a chairman of the inquiry to help us now there needs to be changed please help the third issue I
01:56:31 changed please help the third issue I wanted to raise about core participant status there are people that are key to this inquiry especially for phase 2 they've been declined core participant status if you read my statement I named
01:56:43 status if you read my statement I named a person that was a chairperson of the rental Action Group he's being declined corpus since the status I urge you chairman to please rethink this and have
01:56:54 chairman to please rethink this and have a look at this because he is key to this inquiry finally I need to speak for my brother and his family there is what happened on the night for us but there is also what happened on the night
01:57:05 there is also what happened on the night for them I know that you had the nine-oh-nine call recordings and transcripts they were given false hope by the LFP operators they may well have survived if they didn't listen to the
01:57:17 survived if they didn't listen to the stay-put advice I have listened to my brother's calls and the background in one call where these waited to be
01:57:28 one call where these waited to be connected he says something along the lines of we could have gotten out had they not listen to them I agree with him but there are also calls we personally made to our families that night and the
01:57:40 made to our families that night and the conversation that we had with them no transcripts exist for these calls we also gave them false hope because we wanted to keep them calm and we'll have
01:57:51 wanted to keep them calm and we'll have to live with that for the rest of our lives
01:57:53 lives I lied to my eight-year-old nephew on the night because my brother asked me to tell him that it was going to be ok I have to live for the rest of my life
01:58:05 have to live for the rest of my life though in that I lied and I told him it was going to be fine knowing that it wasn't I urge you to take these into account of what happened during these
01:58:16 account of what happened during these calls there may be no trend recorded or transcripts but I know why I heard I had fear
01:58:23 fear I heard parents trying to be strong for their children sir Martin I want to say to you that 72 people died as a result of what happened none of them had to die
01:58:36 of what happened none of them had to die this could have been prevented and should have not happened please make sure there is change when I look back there are many things that we as the
01:58:48 there are many things that we as the Grenville community and Grenville Action Group could have done differently I cannot change the past but I can learn and do things differently it was very
01:58:59 and do things differently it was very upsetting to hear Danny cotton say that she would have done nothing different on the night this is like saying that there are no lessons to learn I know that people tried their best but
01:59:10 I know that people tried their best but mistakes were made Sir Martin as we move forward
01:59:14 forward I implore you to make the case and space for learning and reflection for ensuring we hear from witnesses what they have learnt saying they would do nothing
01:59:26 learnt saying they would do nothing differently cannot be an acceptable response if we are serious about learning 72 people passed away and we can't bring our loved ones back the impact that has had on our families in
01:59:38 impact that has had on our families in our community could have been prevented we can't change that now but we can change the lives of those we've lost to count for their lives not to have been
01:59:49 count for their lives not to have been in vain there has to be change we have to learn from this life will never be the same for us we may find a new place to live but it won't be our home
02:00:02 to live but it won't be our home Granville was our home the people who were there were our family the impact on me and my children all of those impacted or last a lifetime and I want to know
02:00:15 or last a lifetime and I want to know that we will be supported for the rest of our lives as a result this inquiry I want the truth to be found and for change to happen I finally want to thank all of those people including the
02:00:28 all of those people including the inquiry team who haven't continued to help us it makes a huge difference and I can't express my gratitude enough words will never be enough but from my heart
02:00:39 will never be enough but from my heart thank you this is a hobby thank you very much for those powerful and perceptive and may I say also generous remarks
02:00:50 and may I say also generous remarks I'm very sorry of course for the loss of your brother and his family and that's a loss that can never be repaired and I understand that I'm sure there are lessons to be learned and it's the acquirers job to identify them and do
02:01:03 acquirers job to identify them and do our best to make sure they are learned and put into effect so we're very grateful to you for coming to give your evidence
02:01:09 evidence I've said this to other people but I'll say it again it's very important that we understand as much as we can about the conditions in this in the tower at different times in different places and
02:01:20 different times in different places and what was going on more generally and evidence your evidence and the evidence of others like you have come along to tell us that is really essential so and I'm sorry it's been a difficult
02:01:31 I'm sorry it's been a difficult experience but you can at least be assured that it's been very helpful thank you very much thank you
02:02:01 let's roll it
02:02:09 use that yes to put one statement into the record if I may yes that is the statement of mrs. Wahabis
02:02:22 that is the statement of mrs. Wahabis husband Saladin Shivani and the statement he said I WS five zeroes nine four five please right thank you
02:02:44 if we go to page 11 of the statement
02:02:52 we can see this Gemma it's dated the 3rd of July 2018 it carries a state yes with a statement of truth and it's sign there
02:03:04 a statement of truth and it's sign there is one exhibit which is also part of the state no she's a floor plan at page 12
02:03:12 and if I could I'd like to just read a short extract from the statement as you will have appreciated from mrs. will have his evidence her and her family
02:03:24 have his evidence her and her family were at home on the night of the fire and if I can pick it up at paragraph 24
02:03:40 and if I can pick it up at paragraph 24 and this is mr. Joe boonies account of the events for the night yes and I preface it this you'll remember that mrs. Wahhabi was saying that they they
02:03:52 mrs. Wahhabi was saying that they they wouldn't go to sleep until their son had got back and that's where we start according to the CCC CTC CCTV image I've been shown names reacted returned home
02:04:04 been shown names reacted returned home at 12:30 8 a.m. her nan and I went to sleep when he got in the next thing I remember is waking up and wanting to go to the toilet I didn't know what time it was as I walked
02:04:15 didn't know what time it was as I walked towards a bathroom I smelt a strong plastic burning smell I thought oh my god and that's the name of the couple's son has left something in the cooker so I didn't go to the toilet instead I went
02:04:27 I didn't go to the toilet instead I went to the kitchen and opened the cooker but there was nothing in it and it was switched off I couldn't find the source of the spell which was stronger now in the kitchen than it had been in the hallway I couldn't tell you if the
02:04:38 hallway I couldn't tell you if the kitchen was hotter than usual because I was panicking I could see like gray smoke in the kitchen no windows and our flat were open except for our bedroom window
02:04:48 window we generally kept the windows closed because people smoke and we worry about them throwing a lit cigarette down and flame catching the curtain I heard crackling like when you burn something I turned to the left and could see flames
02:05:00 turned to the left and could see flames coming up behind the kitchen window like someone was having a bonfire just outside of my window I wonder if it was fireworks or something so I opened the kitchen window straight away smoke came in and I felt
02:05:12 straight away smoke came in and I felt an immense heat they closed the window I did not hear any fire alarms go off this all happened very quickly within a few seconds then I walked into the living room confused and looked out of the
02:05:24 room confused and looked out of the window there I opened the window and leaned forward I could see flames below our flat on the outside of the building and I could feel intense heat the fire looks like it was just a meter or two away
02:05:35 away I closed back the window doctor just a couple of seconds I immediately went to her nan and woke her up telling her there was a fire then I went to my son he was lying down in his bed was awake
02:05:46 he was lying down in his bed was awake I'm not sure what he was doing maybe listening to music I told him there was a fire in the building but I wasn't sure where he ran into the living room and opened the window immediately flames
02:05:57 opened the window immediately flames shot up outside of the window in front of his face he closed back the window before the flames entered the flat her nan was in the living room too panicking I told her to calm down and get her
02:06:08 I told her to calm down and get her mobile phone and I got my mobile phone as well as I've said before I thought we would be safe in the flat I thought the fire services will be able to put the fire out and that we will be safe in the flat in the meantime I told her nan and
02:06:21 flat in the meantime I told her nan and my son that we should stay inside the flood
02:06:24 flood luckily they insisted that we get out in paragraph 29 mr. Qiu beanie explains that his son left with his daughter at first his son carrying his daughter and
02:06:36 first his son carrying his daughter and then he continues her nan followed necks carrying her mobile phone and her keys I left the flat last closing the door behind me I also carried my mobile phone and keys I did not lock the door behind
02:06:47 and keys I did not lock the door behind me
02:06:48 me it all happened so quickly that I didn't even think to call 999 when I left the flat the flames were not yet inside it I don't recall hearing any smoke alarms as we left i woked slowed I walked slowly
02:07:00 we left i woked slowed I walked slowly as I left the flat I didn't think the fire was that serious I thought every one thing would be okay I remember seeing light gray smoke on the ninth floor landing like cigarette smoke apart from that everything looked
02:07:12 smoke apart from that everything looked normal
02:07:13 normal the front doors of our neighbors were all closed I didn't see anyone else leaving their flat I can't recall the landing being unusually hot I took the stairs down I know that you must not use
02:07:25 stairs down I know that you must not use the lift during a fire so I did not consider using it the door to the stairwell was closed they were smoke in the stairwell again it was light like exhaust smoke pale gray in color the
02:07:37 exhaust smoke pale gray in color the lights were on in the stairwell I went slowly down the stairs I couldn't see her now in front of me she was gone already stairs weren't slippery and did not seem wet I didn't remember seeing
02:07:48 not seem wet I didn't remember seeing hoses in the stairwell I could smell that burning plastic smell as I descended I could hear people speaking but couldn't tell where the voices were coming from around the sixth or seventh
02:07:59 coming from around the sixth or seventh floor I saw a black guy with his daughter I think he's from Somalia or Sudan he's a small guy and was wearing glasses he was carrying his daughter who I would say was around three years old
02:08:10 I would say was around three years old he asked me what had happened he looked confused rather than scared as we spoke I opened the door onto what I believe was the sixth floor landing when I opened the door I saw thick black smoke
02:08:21 opened the door I saw thick black smoke it was impossible to see through it I closed back the door and I was confused the guy with his daughter was initially behind me on the stairwell but then passed me I said go I'm going
02:08:33 then passed me I said go I'm going slowly I was having a bit little bit of difficulty breathing as I went down the stairs because of the smoke every time I breathed I coughed the statement
02:08:44 breathed I coughed the statement concludes all the parts of it that I wish to read is the CT CCTV images show his son carrying his daughter leaving at 1:19 a.m. her nan will ha be leaving at
02:08:55 1:19 a.m. her nan will ha be leaving at 1:21 a.m. and mr. Chavonne II leaving at 1:22 a.m. and that's where I propose to finish reading from that statement well thank you very much and we should
02:09:07 thank you very much and we should express our thanks to mr. Jimmy really for taking the trouble to make a statement and of course you can shorten that it will form part of the evidence before the inquiry in full and will be
02:09:20 before the inquiry in full and will be taken into account yes mr. mr. chairman that that's our work for today tomorrow we are sitting with a witness and it will be mr. minute yes so we
02:09:32 and it will be mr. minute yes so we break now and resume tomorrow morning at ten o'clock thank you sir it's good thank you very much ten o'clock tomorrow there it is