Evidence from Natasha Elcock, resident of Flat 82 (11th floor) who lived in Grenfell for 20 years. Testimony covers building safety issues, refurbishment problems (windows, doors, drafts), and her experience during the fire.
00:24:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing magenta here more evidence today from those who were present in the tower at the time of the fire yes mr. Eric
00:24:37 at the time of the fire yes mr. Eric good morning mr. chairman cm can I thank you for the additional time you allowed us morning sort out some matters and can I now please call Natasha L yes
00:24:48 I now please call Natasha L yes thank you
00:25:10 I swear I would like to go I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth
00:25:24 thank you very much resort sit down make yourself comfortable
00:25:30 yes mr. Ellen Thank You mr. Jim good morning hi Paulo can you give the inquiry your full name Natasha I'll cook this Alcock thank you
00:25:44 Natasha I'll cook this Alcock thank you very much for coming to give evidence today the help that you're continuing to give to this inquiry is very much appreciated mm-hmm as you'll be aware most of my questions
00:25:57 as you'll be aware most of my questions today are going to focus on the night of the fire itself mm-hmm and in fairness to you we should make clear that you limited your statement to this inquiry thus far to face one issues so I'm not
00:26:10 thus far to face one issues so I'm not going to be asking you about phase 2 issues such as your dealings with the TMO mm-hmm but that said we all appreciate that asking any witness to
00:26:22 appreciate that asking any witness to relive the events of the night of the fire is a difficult task and it's important therefore that you take your time and if at any time you need a break
00:26:34 time and if at any time you need a break just let me know we'll stop I'm trying as I hope I will do to keep my questions short and simple but if I do ask you a question that you don't understand
00:26:46 question that you don't understand please just tell me and I'll ask the question in a different way the first thing that we need to do is to formally put the statements that you've made to the inquiry into the record and if I may
00:26:58 the inquiry into the record and if I may first of all have on the screen I WS 5 0 0 3 1 0 page 1 please and just to help you miss help that's the first page of
00:27:10 you miss help that's the first page of your first statement to the inquiry I think you know because you have attended in the past how it all works but it'll be as we go
00:27:22 how it all works but it'll be as we go through your statement it'll come up on the screen in front of you if you prefer hard copies there's a bundle there on the table if we go then to page eight
00:27:40 the last part of that page there's a statement of truth it's dated the 15th of May 2018 and it carries a signature can you confirm that that's your signature it is yeah and have you had a
00:27:53 signature it is yeah and have you had a chance to go through the statement recently yeah and are the contents of this statement true yes what I need to say and put into the record is that the statement is accompanied by five exhibits which are
00:28:06 accompanied by five exhibits which are labeled anyone to any five and the reference for those is collectively iws five zeros three zero six you've also made a supplementary
00:28:20 you've also made a supplementary statement if we could have myself Cox supplementary statement up on the screen page one please and if we go to page two
00:28:36 it's previous pages thank you again we see at the bottom the statement of truth it's dated the 28th of August 2018 and
00:28:47 it's dated the 28th of August 2018 and can you confirm that's your signature it is you and the contents of that statement true yes that statement is also accompanied by one exhibit which is labeled anyone before I start asking my
00:29:00 labeled anyone before I start asking my questions myself can I start with a just for the benefit of those who are present here or who may be following the hearing elsewhere I will be showing a series of photographs to you they're all images
00:29:14 photographs to you they're all images which have been displayed before and although some are taken after the fire they're not in themselves distressing but I wanted to say this now because I do appreciate that there are others here for whom any image can be upsetting and
00:29:27 for whom any image can be upsetting and so when we come to that and I give the reference they may want to just look away at that point can I take you then just back to the first page of your first statement which is iws five zeros
00:29:41 first statement which is iws five zeros three one zero page one please and can we just begin with a few questions round in June 2017 you lived in flat 82 on the
00:29:54 in June 2017 you lived in flat 82 on the 11th floor of rainfall tower is that right that's correct you by that date how long had you been living in the town by that day sorry
00:30:07 twenty-one years and in June 2017 who was living in your flat so it's myself my partner my free children and is it
00:30:20 my partner my free children and is it right that on the night of the fire you were obviously at home but with you was your partner and your youngest daughter that's correct
00:30:33 could we go please to iws five zeros three zero six zero zero one please
00:30:46 thank you just getting just a few questions please about your flat the layout of the flat yeah that's a marked plan of your home is it right you've
00:31:01 plan of your home is it right you've marked on there your bedroom is the bedroom that would have been next door to flat 83 yes and and as you say opposite the front door yes and and the second bedroom
00:31:14 door yes and and the second bedroom would have been the bedroom that would have been used by your children yep we can see that you've marked we you've marked the front room and the kitchen
00:31:25 marked the front room and the kitchen can you just tell us was there a divide between the kitchen and the front room yeah there's four wooden moving doors so you had sliding door yeah you could so
00:31:37 you had sliding door yeah you could so if you were wanting to access your kitchen from the hallway you could either go through a door into the kitchen directly yeah or via the living room through the sliding doors yeah there was two glass like a double door
00:31:50 there was two glass like a double door that led in from the hallway on the right hand side and or you could go by the kitchen and round into their front room what we can also see on the plan is
00:32:03 room what we can also see on the plan is that if you look in the hallway there are two sort of Asterix you see those and there's one that's just sort of in the middle of the hallway between your
00:32:14 the middle of the hallway between your bedroom door and and the part of passage it led to the front door yeah and then there's one which is just by the toilet do you see that yeah can you tell me
00:32:27 do you see that yeah can you tell me just what are those intended to indicate so I think when I was going through my statement with my solicitor I was explaining my actions so certain points
00:32:40 explaining my actions so certain points during my statement I was saying look there and then I went back there so your movements doing the noise yeah thank you I'm very weak we can use this plan can
00:32:52 I'm very weak we can use this plan can you just tell us did you have smoke alarms
00:32:54 alarms yes flat and where were the smoke alarms so I had one on the wall in the kitchen so as soon as you came through the kitchen
00:33:04 kitchen there was one directly above you it wasn't in the ceiling because it couldn't be installed in the ceiling because the asbestos in the ceiling so they put it actually physically on the wall then there was one in the hallway
00:33:16 wall then there was one in the hallway so between the bathroom and the toilet there's a wall that you can see obviously it's a 3d so you can't really see it but there's that look grey area
00:33:27 see it but there's that look grey area the dark grey area there was one on that wall as well no I described them as smoke alarms and you agreed that there were smoke alarms but how did you know
00:33:38 were smoke alarms but how did you know they were smoke alarms say they were installed probably about maybe a year year before and I remember distinctly like why does it need to be on the wall
00:33:49 like why does it need to be on the wall and it kind of had trunk in that ran from would have been from where the electric cupboard is in the in the by the front door kind of ran through and it had to be installed on the actual
00:34:01 it had to be installed on the actual wall itself because of them saying there was asbestos in the ceiling so somebody actually told you we aren't putting smoke alarms into your flat yeah and you said they had trunking so these were not battery-operated
00:34:12 battery-operated yeah I'm pretty certain they were I mean yeah I'm pretty certain but then because of some of the other stuff where I had electrical issues where when the gas situation happened there was also some
00:34:24 situation happened there was also some trunk in there that I could be quite murdered a little bit but they could have been back to operated but I'm I remember them saying they couldn't install it on the ceiling it had to be on the wall and I think the trunk in may
00:34:35 on the wall and I think the trunk in may or may not be emotional before June 2017 did you ever set off either of these two smoke alarm so did you know whether they
00:34:46 smoke alarm so did you know whether they were working in June 2017 can't say we are never really tested lemons only and no one came to test them now presumably you like other residents
00:34:59 now presumably you like other residents had new windows fitted as part of the refurbishment yep and in your statement I'll take you to it if you if you want to look at it but I'd like to keep the
00:35:10 to look at it but I'd like to keep the map up on the screen the plan rather you refer to a gap between the wall and the windowsill which was in your bedroom and you saying you'll stay me you'd actually
00:35:21 you saying you'll stay me you'd actually raise the complain about that so after they installed the windows before kind of right and left the like the the block
00:35:33 of right and left the like the the block before they signed it off as such there was a number of drafts that would come through so where you see so the window
00:35:44 through so where you see so the window where it says fire at the bottom that the first that first window in the front room there was a really bad draft coming from that one I think what I'd like to
00:35:55 from that one I think what I'd like to do is take it in so we'll start off with your bedroom there was one in the bedroom and let's let's take let's start
00:36:08 bedroom and let's let's take let's start off with your bedroom Steve you had a problem with your bedroom window and can you just tell us what what what the nature of that problem was so when they installed the windows they installed new window sills but it
00:36:20 installed new window sills but it clearly been placed on the old wooden so there was like a wooden windowsill before and wait then did was created a gap between the actual window sill the wall and then the draft would come under
00:36:33 wall and then the draft would come under and could you from inside your bedroom could you actually see that gap yeah yeah the gap was probably about centimeter and a half yes it was quite
00:36:44 centimeter and a half yes it was quite you could get your finger like well I've got slim fingers so I could get my fingers on that and you could feel the driver yeah and it was also a kind of draft around the ceiling like so as I
00:36:56 draft around the ceiling like so as I say there's a wood panel the window when the windowsill went up over it and you could feel like a slight if you put your hand like that you could feel slight drafts coming up against your
00:37:07 slight drafts coming up against your hand and so that's your bedroom you've got a second bedroom did you have a problem with the window in the second bedroom personally I didn't spend much time in there but all of them you could
00:37:18 time in there but all of them you could feel the draft in that gap on the wood panels and when you're saying that gap are you talking about the gap around the frame rather than underneath yeah and now we've got if we go to the front
00:37:30 and now we've got if we go to the front room you've got two windows that are going to face south and then two windows that are facing east yep taking the southern facing windows first
00:37:41 taking the southern facing windows first yeah did you notice any problems with those yeah so that that one the one I was about to say earlier was that very first one was the one that was really really significant and that was actually
00:37:54 really significant and that was actually the one they came and use mastic to reseal when I made the complaint so that was the only one that they could really do anything about they put the elastic around it and and you know to and that
00:38:06 around it and and you know to and that but that was gain was on the wood bit there was nothing they could do about the gap on the actual ledge so in the front room you you did you could you feel a draft coming in from underneath
00:38:18 feel a draft coming in from underneath yeah and what were their sort of particularly times of the year when that was more prominent or was it so being so high up and even pre refurbishment the
00:38:31 high up and even pre refurbishment the wind obviously swings around the building quite fast so if it's a windy night you would get you would kind of hear it hurt but howling but after the
00:38:43 hear it hurt but howling but after the refurbishment it was more of a you didn't hear the wind as much you just kind of felt the draft because the windows were obviously a lot well I assume double glazed but yeah so they weren't as finished the previous windows
00:38:55 weren't as finished the previous windows or they weren't on metal frames so you didn't hear it but you could feel it more post reefer and you raised a complaint you mentioned that somebody
00:39:06 complaint you mentioned that somebody came and did something with master but taking you forward to June 2017 was there still a problem with drafts and gaps yeah yeah yeah yeah that was evident on the night I'm going to
00:39:21 evident on the night I'm going to obviously go to the detail of the night here in due course but I'm that one of the things that you mentioned in your account of the night is that some point when the fire brigade were using water
00:39:33 when the fire brigade were using water on the building water was coming into your property and the the phrase that you use and again if you want to me to take you to the paragraph I'll tell you what you say it was coming through gaps in the walls so what did you mean by
00:39:45 in the walls so what did you mean by gaps in the walls so on the right hand south-facing window there was a vent at the top so there was like a little vent
00:39:57 the top so there was like a little vent that you could cut is like a flap you could open up when they were shoot in the water from grandfa walk it was because that's as far as the wall could get basically from Grandville walk and they were shooting up and therefore it
00:40:09 they were shooting up and therefore it would come through that gap it would the pressure would push that gap open so that's how the war was coming in it wasn't a sort of gap caused by workmanship it was a window that was
00:40:23 workmanship it was a window that was pushed open by the force of the water yeah thank you just a few questions about front doors the front door to your
00:40:37 about front doors the front door to your flat was that also replaced at some point it was replaced prior to the refurbishment I think it's around about 2012 I yeah it was replaced yeah and I
00:40:49 2012 I yeah it was replaced yeah and I should have asked you this earlier how long had you been living in flat how long did you live when did you move into flat 82 I am moved in there in May 1997 so yeah 21 20 years sorry I said 21
00:41:01 so yeah 21 20 years sorry I said 21 earlier but it's actually 20 years sorry and was this a self closing door initially it was so when they first put them in it was a door that it had the
00:41:14 them in it was a door that it had the self closed in it was so much so that I my daughter was baby at the youngest one was a baby at the time I had a pushchair and it was it became a bit of an obstacle course to
00:41:26 became a bit of an obstacle course to try and get out the door because it actually push you out off the door with a perm or push ahead of home so it could push out
00:41:33 push out so yeah itself closed that when they first put them in yet and what then happened to the self closing mechanism so it was the August bank holiday weekend and I remember it because it was
00:41:44 weekend and I remember it because it was carnival weekend and was going out and it literally just dropped off its hinges and it you therefore couldn't close it back and obviously I made a call to the
00:41:56 back and obviously I made a call to the CMO to say that but obviously being bank holiday it was not much they could do it I remember it vividly because it was carnival weekend which year that was I'd
00:42:08 carnival weekend which year that was I'd like to say maybe a year after like so not long after it'd been installed so if it'd been installed early 2012 it would have been August 2012 it wasn't very much longer after it been installed they
00:42:19 much longer after it been installed they were new and nothing could be done about it that weekend because it was confer weekend and then someone came out and took out the the self closing mechanism
00:42:32 took out the the self closing mechanism that was in the chat was like a chain kind of had quite heavy chain oh I think it was or pole or to me and he took it out and they never come back and were you there when this this job was done on
00:42:44 you there when this this job was done on the law yeah and did you know what they were removing did you know what the purpose of that mechanism was I I didn't know what at the time but once he'd taken it out the door no longer closed
00:42:56 taken it out the door no longer closed by itself so no longer knocked you out as you left and did the person who who came to deal with the problem explain to you what he or she was doing so it was
00:43:10 you what he or she was doing so it was clearly broken and it the door needed to close back at that point it was no you couldn't it was you couldn't pull it shut he took that out and said someone
00:43:22 shut he took that out and said someone would be back to see I assume replace it but that never really materialized and did you ever kind of chase someone about that or not really because I know like when the doors were in store
00:43:33 when the doors were in store like look that was a complaint like you know it was really heavy they you know they were quiet for people that had pushed chairs or elderly they were really right quite forceful when they
00:43:44 really right quite forceful when they shut back it wasn't a slow closing mechanism or even medium it was quite BAM you know that was how it pushed you out
00:43:52 out it literally pushed you out the door so I don't there wasn't a follow up as such I can't remember following it up to be honest just described the front door to
00:44:08 honest just described the front door to me but as it was in June 2017 I mean did it have a letterbox in it we did have a spy hole that you can get out through yep
00:44:16 yep and aside from the closing Mecca so taking you forward to June 2017 you've got a front door that doesn't have a closing mechanism good did you have any
00:44:27 closing mechanism good did you have any other issues of the door so not maybe a few weeks before that I had an issue with it actually the handle locking Ana
00:44:38 with it actually the handle locking Ana carpenter came out maybe a couple of months before that and done something I'm not really sure what it did but fix the locking mechanism did you ever notice a draft coming through the door
00:44:49 notice a draft coming through the door at all can't say I didn't know could I have the in same exhibit but just the next page in the exhibit so page 2 of
00:45:03 next page in the exhibit so page 2 of iws 306 please um this is I think a plan that you've marked I take that sure is
00:45:14 that you've marked I take that sure is that your handwriting that's no it was gonna be it's still neater than mine so we have Val your your layout the
00:45:27 so we have Val your your layout the layout of your floor and we can see marked flat 82 and also the communal area which it just to alert you missile
00:45:38 area which it just to alert you missile occasionally I might call it the landing that's all the lobby or the communal area but we've heard from other witnesses that there was lighting in the communal area
00:45:50 there was lighting in the communal area do you remember if the lights on your floor were always on yeah yeah so no matter what time of night you came back you'd find a light on on the floor and
00:46:01 you'd find a light on on the floor and we can see and and there's a it might be that you were illustrating a movement there but you can see your front door and then there's a line going to a sort of Asterix again and that's by the the
00:46:14 of Asterix again and that's by the the door to the stairwell yeah so you're flat 82 on a normal day or normal night if you if you wanted to go from your
00:46:25 if you if you wanted to go from your front door to that stairwell door how many steps would it take you
00:46:36 eight-nine not many and can you just visualize it I mean maybe you can use the room but that the distance from your front door to that stairwell door from here to probably the end of the slope
00:46:50 here to probably the end of the slope maybe so to the end of the ramp that woman's installed to four witnesses who need to use it and did you ever use the
00:47:01 need to use it and did you ever use the stairs yourself yeah you would have to use the stairs where did the lifts are out of order especially on the school run in the morning if there was only one
00:47:12 run in the morning if there was only one left you had no chance so yeah and I've very rarely I tried not to walk up there live in there for 20 years I've done it
00:47:23 live in there for 20 years I've done it many many times but if I knew the lifts were out I'd Rob I used to go around to a friend's have a cup of tea until they were fixed but yeah yeah I've used them I mean I've used them pretty much I know
00:47:34 I mean I've used them pretty much I know that the lay up the stairs from the age of about five you said a few minutes ago you tried to not to use them was there any reason that you avoided using the stairs to walk down them is always fine
00:47:47 stairs to walk down them is always fine because you're going down it don't take long but so walk up them with shopping and push stairs and children there's nothing there but the easiest things to do more to just more to do with those laziness we've got we've got the
00:48:06 laziness we've got we've got the stairwell door there do you remember and I'm taking thinking specifically around June 2017 remember the door from this from the the communal
00:48:17 the door from this from the the communal area into the stairwell did that close automatically both that one ends been shoot were quite David the only they won't change so they were they used to shot back on them make a bit of a bang and if you compare I mean I know you you
00:48:31 and if you compare I mean I know you you know with a young child probably the prospect of the stairs wasn't appealing but if you had to use the stairs you explained it you're cut you you know the difficulty you had with your flat door when you're negotiating that with a pram oh how was the
00:48:44 that with a pram oh how was the stairwell door by comparison with with you your flat two door it was self closing so it would close back it was not it was a real it was a thick door I mean it's been there it's
00:48:57 thick door I mean it's been there it's been the whole time I lived in the tower but it would close back but it wouldn't be like a forceful closed back in with you naturally just shut that the pin shoot was probably a lot more faster
00:49:10 shoot was probably a lot more faster than the stairwell one but they both closed themself straight back in once you came out of them you mentioned that the lifts were sometimes out of order in
00:49:21 the lifts were sometimes out of order in fact marked on there yeah the lift was out of service and well how often were the lifts out of order so they were replaced back in 2005
00:49:37 order so they were replaced back in 2005 and I think from pretty much then yeah they were kind of constantly if one wasn't out the other one was you know it
00:49:48 wasn't out the other one was you know it and then some weekend you just kind of have none
00:49:52 have none there seem to be more problems post refurb because the people the contractors were using the lifts so they used one they basically ultimately
00:50:03 used one they basically ultimately caused the problem where grip would get into the mechanisms and that would knock the lifts out so they were constantly out of order
00:50:14 just taking you slightly out of sequence but we're going on going to June 2017 but you've marked at the lift so we're on that night is out of service can you
00:50:25 on that night is out of service can you remember how long that lift have been out of service no so the whole reason I've marked it out service and it relates to my statement because when I woke up and well when I was a woke as a second time
00:50:37 well when I was a woke as a second time not the first time as my statement says when I was talking to my neighbors which is why it's quite detailed in that in that picture I remember looking at one of the lifts actually had the the
00:50:49 of the lifts actually had the the ticker-tape where it says out of service so it's quite difficult because you haven't got to that bit yet in my statement would it help you if I deal with it when we get
00:51:00 with it when we get to that bit yeah yeah yeah okay so let's move on to a different topic next question is were you aware of gas pipes on the floor landing yeah and can you
00:51:13 on the floor landing yeah and can you remember where those pipes ran so the gas pipe because I was the what the flat that was affected so the gas pipe ran
00:51:25 that was affected so the gas pipe ran from out of the stairwell so it ran through the cellar well he ran out of the top of the stairwell came round number 81 which is a flat to the right
00:51:36 number 81 which is a flat to the right of me round the top of my flat and then into my cupboard in fact let me to see
00:51:47 into my cupboard in fact let me to see what covered you okay I said well can I do it this way I'm going to try and show you a photograph which is taken by another witness it's of a different floor and taken before the fire but it
00:51:59 floor and taken before the fire but it just might help you it's it's can we have iws four zeros one double zero one and then page five so just so that I can
00:52:10 and then page five so just so that I can put it just just to assist those who watching it's it's it's a different floor so we've got flats 1 1 1 and 1 1 2 so higher floor than yours but we can
00:52:22 so higher floor than yours but we can see piping running across above that was that the same arrangement in your problem your feel floor exactly the same and I've actually got a picture that was taken two days before of me standing outside the front door with gas pipes
00:52:34 outside the front door with gas pipes like that
00:52:41 can I move on to a different topic please I'm going to show now missile the fire safety notice sign that we've shown before so just to alert those who may be
00:52:52 so just to alert those who may be following this and can we have please inq 93 please just to explain you may
00:53:03 inq 93 please just to explain you may very well be familiar with this micelle code but it's a sign it's a photograph of a sign that was by the lifts on the third floor and it's photographs taken
00:53:14 third floor and it's photographs taken by one of our experts but do you remember seeing a sign like this by the lifts on your floor yes and was it cited it was cited by the lips as well was it
00:53:27 lift yeah from my for me looking at my front doors on the left and there was also one in the lobby in the ground floor so the two places you remember its lobby and ground floor yeah right you'd
00:53:40 lobby and ground floor yeah right you'd lived in the tower for 20 years yeah you knew people in the tower who lived on different floors didn't you yeah you remember seeing signs like that on other floors
00:53:48 floors can't say yeah can you remember when taking your floor as the example when that sign first appeared by the lifts I
00:54:03 couldn't give you an exact time scalp it wouldn't it would have been sometime in the 12 months prior to the fire it wasn't there any longer than that so
00:54:18 wasn't there any longer than that so what we've got is you know you're a working mother in June 2017 and before so what you've got is you've got a sign by the door by the lifts and you use a
00:54:30 by the door by the lifts and you use a lifts to come and go when they're working would you have read that sign I would have noticed it when it went up because it wouldn't have been there before but yeah I would have kind of
00:54:44 before but yeah I would have kind of when you're waiting for the lift it gives you something to do and if we expand slightly at the top just under than the heading of the notice says afraid I'm which says there
00:54:55 notice says afraid I'm which says there is a staple policy for residents unless the fire is in or affecting your flat before June 2017 did that phrase mean anything to you I've heard it previously
00:55:08 anything to you I've heard it previously not kind of from a council point of view but just other stuff that's happened in in in block fires and stuff like that so yeah and aside from this notice did you
00:55:24 yeah and aside from this notice did you have any information from any other organization or individual as to what you should do if there was a fire in the tower yeah sticking to your floor again
00:55:36 tower yeah sticking to your floor again we've talked about the stairwell door do you remember if there were any exit signs on your floor indicating what route you might need to take if there was an emergency no I don't remember
00:55:50 was an emergency no I don't remember there's no green fire exit this way where I work we have loads of them I know you look they need to be high and visible so that people consider a hundred and ten percent no but nothing
00:56:02 hundred and ten percent no but nothing like that on your floor other than that no so by June 2017 what was your understanding about what you as a
00:56:14 understanding about what you as a resident of the tower should do if there was a fire I've lived there long enough to know that there have been fires that haven't the unit didn't even know that
00:56:25 haven't the unit didn't even know that they'd happened till the next morning so there was no how I saw it no fret you know like you fires happen and generally they're kept there all under control pretty quick so I never
00:56:39 under control pretty quick so I never ever thought that this would be something that you'd kind of have to to do can I turn now to the events of 13th
00:56:50 do can I turn now to the events of 13th or 14th of June mm-hmm and can I take you please - can we have side by side please page two of
00:57:03 we have side by side please page two of missile first statement and particularly if we could just expand paragraph eight and then what may not
00:57:22 paragraph eight and then what may not work for what I'm planning to do the ralpher because of what I'd like is we have iws 306 page to the planet layout of the of the floor
00:57:38 um
00:57:43 on the night itself in your statement you described you fell asleep on the sofa that night and then later on you described being woken up by the sound of
00:57:54 described being woken up by the sound of sirens you then went to bed and then you will woken up again by the sound of voices and that's the point when you then went to your door and you saw your neighbors from flat eighty-six they told
00:58:08 neighbors from flat eighty-six they told you that there was smoke and you can see on the plan that you're in 8286 is the top flat on the plan as we see it on the same side but you've marked smoke with a
00:58:22 same side but you've marked smoke with a dot would you see so was that where you saw smoke so yeah I woke up I kind of
00:58:34 saw smoke so yeah I woke up I kind of open the door a little bit they were standing where the dot was and they were saying that there's smoke and you could
00:58:45 saying that there's smoke and you could see like a real like a really fitting wisp of smoke in that corner so that's why it's kind of highlighted now this makes sense and yeah and then I went on
00:58:57 makes sense and yeah and then I went on to tell them okay go and I closed back the door of my flat so taking that in stages a little bit so you must have had
00:59:08 stages a little bit so you must have had to come out of your flat and walk across the lobby towards their door right yeah so pretty much kind of where I wear that Asterix is I've kind of come out and looked I didn't come to light all the
00:59:21 looked I didn't come to light all the way out into the hallway I kind of come round and have a look you could kind of lean your head rounds and see and you can see just like a from the other side of the cupboard a tiny bit of smoke like
00:59:33 of the cupboard a tiny bit of smoke like it wasn't it was like a really like grey cigarette Lee type of smoke like baby it's a little bit thicker than that and they were standing at that corner so
00:59:45 they were standing at that corner so number 86 their father owned the door up and but I wasn't like in a position to leave at that point so I said to them I like because I didn't
00:59:56 like because I didn't understand what they were trying to say but I realized they said they live smoke so I was okay you guys go and I closed back the door and shouted fruits in my
01:00:08 back the door and shouted fruits in my partner to find out what was going on so
01:00:13 would you say that you probably went as far into the hallways sort of area of the stairwell you could you could be fair you could come out and just go left of the door and see straight ahead and
01:00:27 of the door and see straight ahead and so on that plan where we see the word smoke and then a dot that's where your neighbors were yes so they were kind of in between the cupboard the bin chute door and their sight from from your
01:00:42 door and their sight from from your position
01:00:43 position was there anything sort of affecting your visibility as well and from where you work could you see whether the door to flat 86 was open or not I didn't go that far to see the door so
01:00:56 I didn't go that far to see the door so you couldn't see inside the flat no because they were outside now in your statement you described yourself as at
01:01:08 statement you described yourself as at that point as confused so what did you think was going on I to build a staff as I say I was asleep heard the sirens
01:01:20 I say I was asleep heard the sirens completely nothing uncommon for where Grantville you know 5k gets called full sorts of reasons so I didn't pay any attention to it but what was really unusual for me is
01:01:32 it but what was really unusual for me is noises on the landing it's a quiet London you know no you don't especially at that time are not even expect it so I was more confused that something they were out on the landing and there was a
01:01:44 were out on the landing and there was a little bit of smoke but I still didn't kind of put bold fibre gate here I didn't know I suppose because I've just kind of woke him back up I wasn't really was a bit confused by what was going on
01:01:56 was a bit confused by what was going on so it was more about finding out what's going on when I get back in you told them to leave yeah because I told them to leave because they looked worried
01:02:09 to leave because they looked worried and I again you know that's the only thing I can tell them to do because I you know if you're worried then leap I wasn't really as I won't sure as I say it was complete confusion I weren't sure what was going
01:02:20 confusion I weren't sure what was going on oh you know but it was just them saying I smoke smoke and that was kind of how they were saying it I mean there wasn't no description this fire in my flat or anything like that so it was more smoke smoking and I just said okay
01:02:33 more smoke smoking and I just said okay I remember looking at the lifts from one of them being out of service
01:02:39 that wasn't me telling them to get in the lift I just need to add that but it was more about like oh there is a little bit of context so why I would look at the lift when I looked at the lift it
01:02:52 the lift when I looked at the lift it then it now makes sense why I looked at the lift because and it's quite different I want to totally explain what I'm talking about but when the problem
01:03:08 I'm talking about but when the problem is I know that you may come on to her later date but I'm gonna say anyway so the vent things that the rehabs anytime they were opened and they were activated
01:03:20 they were opened and they were activated as such the lifts would go out of order so I think in my head when I looked at the lift I kind of looked to see what was going on so that I could see one of the lists was
01:03:31 so that I could see one of the lists was out of wooden said do not use all right I don't know what you said but it was doing the ticker thing and that's when I needed to establish what's going on because clearly there's some sort of correlation but it's not till after you
01:03:43 correlation but it's not till after you think about how you feel full process that night but that's why I just said look okay go they shot back the door we were your neighbors trying to tell you what to do
01:03:55 neighbors trying to tell you what to do yeah so they were just talking they were just saying smoke and you told them to
01:04:07 just saying smoke and you told them to leave at that time we did come into your mind that you should be leaving as well so at that time again it was like the lights are on they were okay there was a
01:04:18 lights are on they were okay there was a tiny bit of smoke but it wasn't like it for me it didn't seem like huge it it's really difficult to describe but I didn't I had still had to
01:04:30 describe but I didn't I had still had to go back here my daughter still inside my partner still inside so I've still got you know I could say to you go but I need to go back in establish what's going on and then work it out from there and that's basically was my fault for
01:04:41 and that's basically was my fault for process um let's talk lifts and vents the lift is out of all outer surface so
01:04:55 the lift is out of all outer surface so that night when you got back home was that lifts working yeah so can you remember what time you got home that night so and you used and so when eight
01:05:10 night so and you used and so when eight o'clock when you're getting into your flat both lifts away and tell us how you would know that a lift was out of service they've got like digital signs which tells you where the lifts going up
01:05:21 which tells you where the lifts going up and down what floor it's on now but when it went out of service it would say out of service it just keep running across our service our service our service
01:05:31 you mentioned vents yeah I'm going to show you two images now which we've seen before so can we have vla three zeroes
01:05:43 before so can we have vla three zeroes to five one three and B la three zero two five one four
01:06:00 you may well be familiar with these images myself because we've shown them to other witnesses but they're two photographs taken on floor six after the fire and their views north and south so
01:06:13 fire and their views north and south so we can see in the image on the left hand side of the screen there are two vents high up on the wall yeah and on the right hand side there they are they're
01:06:24 right hand side there they are they're on at the lower end of the wall do you is that what you're talking about when you refer to vents yeah now you tell us
01:06:35 you refer to vents yeah now you tell us then when you say that when what link you you noticed between these vents and the lifts not working so there was a
01:06:46 the lifts not working so there was a weekend when I recall coming home and when you came in through the new doors the new entrance to the lobby the lift there the vents would be to your left
01:06:57 there the vents would be to your left hand side and there was just one weekend where they were like really really loud so I'm assuming that's what this was never there before so this this new is this when this was a whole new system
01:07:09 this when this was a whole new system that had that it literally spent the whole weekend they didn't see it didn't switch off it was really quite warm weekend so you had two windows open and so you could hear the kind of really
01:07:20 so you could hear the kind of really left because it's on out that side of the block and I remember the lifts actually not working and I think they managed to get one lift working that weekend but it wasn't until that noise
01:07:31 weekend but it wasn't until that noise it for me I saw it as a correlation I don't know if it was but whether what for me I saw it as that when that activated for whatever reason and that weekend it was just because it activated
01:07:42 weekend it was just because it activated one of the lifts or to have both lifts would go out of service and when you're talking about that that was hearing vents on the ground yeah ah be lower yeah and it was really
01:07:54 yeah ah be lower yeah and it was really really loud and a whole weekend and can you just help us with just what a what year it was and be what time of year it was definitely in the summer month so it every way definitely and I say summer
01:08:06 every way definitely and I say summer months but it was in when like autumn or winter it was definitely summer spring it was
01:08:12 it was it was it was a time when you had no choice but to have your windows open because it was warm and it was a weekend of just constant whirling up this machine and did you hear it after the
01:08:25 machine and did you hear it after the refurbishment was this after this is yes they weren't there before so so on and on a hot weekend after the refurbishment
01:08:36 on a hot weekend after the refurbishment that's when you hear this noise and the lifts go out after that did did you did you ever make that link again I can't
01:08:50 you ever make that link again I can't say I didn't know but I remember this because as I say it was all the noise was like quite unbearable for a whole weekend hymns yeah and I remember the lifts having an issue you'd call up
01:09:01 lifts having an issue you'd call up about the lift the lifts not working again and then they would send someone out and I think they fixed one of the lifts obviously they couldn't fix both of them at the time and but that noise were still going until the Monday morning and when I came home from work
01:09:13 morning and when I came home from work the Monday it was it was off so after after that occasion do you remember ever really hearing such a loud noise from that system again I know you you've got
01:09:25 that system again I know you you've got similar vents on your floor haven't you on a kind of normal day what did you hear from on your floor what did you
01:09:36 hear from on your floor what did you hear from those events you didn't I didn't I don't recall hearing anything from and what was the temperature like on floor 11 communal area normal is it's
01:09:48 on floor 11 communal area normal is it's ever been
01:09:49 ever been so just normal as well is that normal bearable or normal unbearable was it uncomfortable ever no no no it's just normal hallway low temperature it wasn't
01:10:00 normal hallway low temperature it wasn't as cold as the stairs so the stairs would have a bit of a draft but the hallways never really did can I take you back to the night itself and what you and you've already
01:10:15 and what you and you've already mentioned this week let's go back to your statement page 2 of the first statement please
01:10:23 paragraphs 9 & 10 just to help you in the cell but what you tell us is that after the encounter with your with your neighbors you go back into you the
01:10:36 your neighbors you go back into you the flat to speak to your partner and you both then looked out of a window facing east yet just with this there's just a little bit that it's kind of benefit muddled up but yeah I couldn't just the
01:10:48 muddled up but yeah I couldn't just the end bit it's a bit about spraying the the cherry picker at least it kind of come a little bit after that sorry sorry I gave it was business well no let's clear it out you mentioned in paragraph
01:11:00 clear it out you mentioned in paragraph 9 that you saw a fireman on a cherry picker yeah but and Springs have it now thinking about it does do you think that occurred later on it happens after I've made the call so it's a bit so maybe at
01:11:12 made the call so it's a bit so maybe at the end of the 10 it's it's it's the call that I want to ask you about because it's your first call and you you you address it in paragraph 10 and it's
01:11:23 you address it in paragraph 10 and it's a call to which is handled by the London Fire Brigade and it's timed at 128 so leave the fireman on the cherry picker
01:11:34 leave the fireman on the cherry picker aside but let's are you clear in your mind that you made that call after you and your partner had looked out of the window yeah yes so we looked out so I said so I walked back to the front room
01:11:46 said so I walked back to the front room and said what's going on and my partner was still watching TV he then got up walked to the window which is on the east side which overlooks the sports enough and he went oh it looks like there's a fire so I went and had a look
01:11:58 there's a fire so I went and had a look as well can clearly see it was really low down and it was shooting out from the bottom bits on the sixes side so I'm on the two it was on the sixer site and then I
01:12:09 it was on the sixer site and then I naturally just picked up the phone and called the 5k when you made that call you begin by saying I'm stuck on the
01:12:20 you begin by saying I'm stuck on the 11th floor and I don't know how to get out so what was it that made you feel as if you were stuck on my first call so so if I explain to you what happens
01:12:34 so so if I explain to you what happens only looked out for the window I made the call so no yet so we were looking out the window and I remember like
01:12:45 out the window and I remember like obviously there there's there's a fart I'm pretty certain is that my first call it says oh right okay sorry right you want to see the transcript yeah easier okay let's go please - lfb five zeros
01:12:59 okay let's go please - lfb five zeros 3:07
01:13:06 it is hell cop up if at any time you want to take it and see the transcript because you've dealt with them in their calls in detail in your statement but if you do just ask me and I will take you
01:13:17 you do just ask me and I will take you to transcript but if you look at the very top line there's that there's a bit called event yeah and you see that there's a black square that we put on
01:13:30 there's a black square that we put on and next to that if you're moving towards the left you've got a row of numbers where the red dot is now so that always gives us the time so that's what 128 as you put in your statement if you go to the next page you're the person
01:13:47 go to the next page you're the person identified as caller and my question was directed just to what you say about being stuck so because what has happened to you so far is the interaction with your neighbors on the lobby yeah and
01:13:59 your neighbors on the lobby yeah and looking out of the window and so my question is what was it that made you feel as if you were stuck on your floor so obviously now reading it in its entirety it makes a little bit more sense so I think when I called because I
01:14:12 sense so I think when I called because I could see the fiber paper here so I can see them now outside the window I don't know whether that word stuck is more a case of I'm on this 11th floor what do I need to do kind of thing that was kind
01:14:23 need to do kind of thing that was kind of my angle now thinking back it wasn't a at this point we haven't attempted to leave so that's was just trying to clarify why yeah so now I've seen it in
01:14:36 clarify why yeah so now I've seen it in its entirety what I said it's more a case of we're on the 11th floor kind of letting them know that's where we are so would it be fair to say at that time you didn't feel as if you were trapped on
01:14:47 didn't feel as if you were trapped on your floor no not yet because we haven't attempted to leave yet we go to the next page please and this is something you mentioned in your statement that can you see at the top the the control room
01:14:59 see at the top the the control room operator says I'll let the crews know where you are okay
01:15:05 did you take anything from that I suppose
01:15:11 suppose you know naturally you call the fire brigade for me I know they're there I'm telling you where I am I await your instructions that that would have been
01:15:23 instructions that that would have been my full processor at that point thank you we've been going mr. chairman for 55 minutes I think yes I had my own no well we're moving on to another topic so it
01:15:36 we're moving on to another topic so it may be a good point to ask for a break yes well probably is convenient to have a break at this point I'm going to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence when they're out of the room and we'll come back at 20 past
01:15:49 room and we'll come back at 20 past 11:00 and if you like to go with the absolute McCarty thank you thank you very much
01:16:03 right 24/7 please
01:19:41 you
01:28:31 [Music]
01:28:45 yes who's your ask the witness to come back in please
01:29:05 Brazil cook you have ready to carry on yeah good thank you yes mr. Rohit Thank You mr. chairman um miss Alcott before we carry on with your account I just want to go back and pick
01:29:16 account I just want to go back and pick up something on something you said earlier and it involves showing you a photograph from the night itself which we which it is one that we've shown and it it shows Nadja jafari coming out of
01:29:29 it it shows Nadja jafari coming out of the lift are you all right saying that image others here may wish to just look away
01:29:36 away it's inq five zeros for two six please
01:29:41 we just expand the left-hand side of the image so we can see what's on the wall
01:29:52 so where we are miss I'll cause it's the ground floor lift lobby and we can see that there's there's a poster but next to the place there appears to be a grill
01:30:04 to the place there appears to be a grill when you when you were answering questions earlier before the short break you you mentioned that hot weekend when you heard a noise does that photograph help you at all to tell us where that
01:30:15 help you at all to tell us where that noise was coming from was it from them it's outside the actual entrance this on the right hand side there was some sort of grill thing so was it in the foyer area no actually outside the building on
01:30:27 area no actually outside the building on the right I follow I see outside the tower itself yeah my father all right thank you
01:30:34 thank you well let's go back to your account please and your statement at page three
01:30:42 all right so iw 3:10 page three thank you and let's explain paragraphs 11 and 12
01:30:54 you've dialed 999 once at 128 and in these two paragraphs you tell us you you get dressed you see neighbors on the
01:31:08 get dressed you see neighbors on the grass below and you speak to your sister and then if we pick it up at 133 in paragraph 12 you say you you call the fire brigade again and speak to them now
01:31:23 fire brigade again and speak to them now 128 and 133 if my math is right it's five minutes so what had happened to make you call a second time obviously
01:31:36 make you call a second time obviously got dressed wake up my daughter I was looking out so we were kind of looking out to see I've already called them so they know that there's a fire they've told me they're in attendance and then
01:31:48 told me they're in attendance and then I'm looking downstairs and I actually see as I put here you see from fly 85 and he's the one that prompted me kind of say somebody's not right here why is he down there I then called my sister
01:32:01 he down there I then called my sister just to tell her look we're okay but there's a fire as soon as we get out we're gonna I'm gonna bring my daughter to my mum's and then that at that point
01:32:14 to my mum's and then that at that point I believe when I see a no I believe I know when we when I saw you see if I kind of looked after calling my sister I looked at my partner and I said to him you know what I think Yussef was my
01:32:26 you know what I think Yussef was my prompt so I kind of said you know what I think it's time we went like let's not wait and he so we went to go out and he
01:32:38 wait and he so we went to go out and he he was in front he opened the door and with that it was pitch black he shot will out come back and he said look we're not going to get out um can I
01:32:51 look we're not going to get out um can I take you back then to your account and that part of it with your partner going out through the door yeah and let's go please - back to page 3 and look at paragraph 13 to 15 so you set
01:33:05 look at paragraph 13 to 15 so you set out just so that we can get contest in paragraph 12 you've set out the key detail of that call as I say a little bit this is jumbled up for me when I've done it well I hopefully I can
01:33:17 when I've done it well I hopefully I can help you - Anjali yeah but but you know it is important that we get your answers and your narrative so you know you feel free to stop me and tell me how it what
01:33:28 free to stop me and tell me how it what the sequence of bays work because what we see first of all is that having made that call in paragraph 13 you start talking about you speak about receiving phone calls from friends on the ground
01:33:39 phone calls from friends on the ground yeah I'm like one of my questions is this if you look at paragraph 13 you say at 140 I received a phone call from my friend and my question is directed to our but also to other parts of your
01:33:50 our but also to other parts of your statement you're able to give very precise times for calls that you received is that because you've been able to take it from your phone records yes so weirdly enough someone a few days
01:34:01 yes so weirdly enough someone a few days after the fire said take screenshot of all the calls you made I don't know why I can't even remember who said it to me and that's been how I've been able to piece together what I did and how I did
01:34:12 piece together what I did and how I did it and you speak of one particular friend and again refer to sensing the nervousness in his voice yeah what information were you getting from friends outside at the time so at that
01:34:25 friends outside at the time so at that particular time when I spoke to him we'd already attempted to leave so I knew obviously something's going on and I've obviously called back the fire brigade
01:34:39 obviously called back the fire brigade so is this a jumble yeah this is insane it's all a bit back to front sorry let's park that bit of the jumble and do it this way we try and get the sequence right so we've had your second call yeah
01:34:51 right so we've had your second call yeah and your partner who you know you talk yeah it's at the tail end of paragraph 13 yeah so and is that that's is that what you're referring to your first attempt to try and leave yes right so
01:35:03 attempt to try and leave yes right so what you say is that he opens the front door shuts it quickly and says we can't yeah so at that time
01:35:14 yeah so at that time and and I'm gonna come on to the blue flame but at that time what did he tell you about what he saw he didn't he just said we're not going to get out there and I could see by his reaction his face
01:35:27 and I could see by his reaction his face that you know I trusted him that there's something seriously wrong out there I don't you know I didn't know until later why he he said that so then before I
01:35:39 why he he said that so then before I received the call from Jim the next paragraph the 14 bit comes before the Jim call but it's just a bit back to front did you go to the front door with Anthony so I was behind him so I'm there
01:35:51 Anthony so I was behind him so I'm there with my dog yes so he's he so from there so he would be at the front he would have gone out the front door I was so he's gone to check that everything's okay let's go but I'm in the hallway
01:36:02 okay let's go but I'm in the hallway probably around near my bedroom area he's gone now I can see it the smoke comes in a little bit not a lot but it's dark out there now it's know the lights
01:36:13 dark out there now it's know the lights are no longer on just break down your answer a little bit so from your standing behind Anthony from your
01:36:24 standing behind Anthony from your position could you see the conditions in the lobby at that time at all I could see it was dark that was about as much as I could see there is no there's no longer you know there's no longer no light out there and you refer to smoke
01:36:37 light out there and you refer to smoke coming in yes yeah was that the first smoke that it got any like quite a quick he's gone out come back in very very quickly did he actually step out into the lobby yeah well yeah kind of half
01:36:50 the lobby yeah well yeah kind of half step yeah so can we put it this way he opens the door half steps out in the lobby and then steps back in yeah and gives you and I can see from his his reaction to whatever is going on out
01:37:01 reaction to whatever is going on out there here we he's you know he's he doesn't deem it safe and I take his judgments I took his judgment and how much smoke came in at that point no no
01:37:13 much smoke came in at that point no no can you do you remember what that smoke looked like not really
01:37:20 and after the door was shut did any more smoke come in no not at that point now before we leave paragraph 13 what one thing you do mention is that is that
01:37:31 thing you do mention is that is that your partner later told you that he saw a blue flame on the landing when he opened the door did he tell you anything else about that blue flame no he just said because afterwards he had like a burn mark on
01:37:43 afterwards he had like a burn mark on his arm and so where did that come from and that's when he mentioned the blue flame I think he yeah I can't tell you where he saw it I yeah yeah paragraph 14
01:38:02 where he saw it I yeah yeah paragraph 14 the bath you you say that and again I think it's important we get the sequence yes you've tried to go out you've shut
01:38:13 yes you've tried to go out you've shut the door was it then that you started the bath running yes so I lit says there I'm not gonna repeat it but I walk into the bathroom put plug the bath and he
01:38:25 the bathroom put plug the bath and he just like what though you're doing and then I reply didn't those I'm not going to repeat it but that's what I said it's just wrong yeah and then it was a case of then the
01:38:36 yeah and then it was a case of then the phone call started to come through and then I've called back and now I'm at this point where I can't see that we're getting that out though and we we know
01:38:48 getting that out though and we we know from your account from from from reading your statement that your partner Antony used the water from the bath later on but is it did you just keep the taps running so if I left it running it
01:39:00 running so if I left it running it overflowed as it naturally would once it gets to a certain point and and then at some point yeah and they went in and switch them on thank you
01:39:10 thank you if we look down at paragraph 15 now this is now your third to 999 call and the time and it's right from the transcript
01:39:21 time and it's right from the transcript as well as 143 and you tell the fire the control room operator there's smoke coming in into your house and you use the word house where was this
01:39:34 you use the word house where was this smoke coming from at that time
01:39:46 I think it's possible from where like window may have been opened it was yeah when I say I think I think a lot of kind
01:39:59 when I say I think I think a lot of kind of that kind of early conversation is more to say look just hurry up and come and get me you kind of say stuff to prompt people to do stuff and I think that might be where I mean when I think
01:40:11 that might be where I mean when I think about the levels of smoke that was in my house at that point it was about not it wasn't like it didn't have like a major effect so if I did say that and again
01:40:23 effect so if I did say that and again I'm a bit blaring on that one but I've probably just more to say look you need to come and guess you know you kind of say whatever you can to make people react and I think that might be more about me trying to get them to react a
01:40:35 about me trying to get them to react a bit quicker than anything else but the fact that you needed to say things like that yeah what does that how does that reflect your understanding of how the situation was developed oh I knew now
01:40:47 situation was developed oh I knew now it's real serious you know I know that we can't get out I can see what's going on down so I had a very good view of everything that's kind of going on out in the front we were in the front room at this point I can see that the police
01:41:00 at this point I can see that the police are kicking in the doors on Graham for walk telling people to get out I can see firefighters on Grenfell walk through it water up I can see the cherry picker at the front of the building he's looking at me I'm looking at him but nothing's
01:41:12 at me I'm looking at him but nothing's happening and no one's coming so I know it's at this point that it's exceptionally serious I can also tell but you know that the calls are coming in and people are saying this is what's
01:41:23 in and people are saying this is what's going on and I think for me at that point it was more around where is it now where's the fire now because I know it's serious but I'm trying to say to whoever
01:41:34 serious but I'm trying to say to whoever I was talking to on the phone hurry up basically in a nice the nicest possible way and you mentioned the calls coming in and what the one call that you specifically citing your state support
01:41:45 specifically citing your state support from your friend Jimmy yeah and just saying we could hear that chronology did Jimmy call you before or after this third call at 1:43 before yeah that's literally - my phone records
01:41:59 yeah that's literally - my phone records he you can see it I think you've got my phone records but the that is how it went he spoke to me so I've called the fire brigade a couple of times spoken to Tanisha he then calls me and I can hear
01:42:12 Tanisha he then calls me and I can hear it in his voice but all I'm saying to me is where is it tell me where the fire is he said it's not on your site and that's when he kept sent to me and every time I said because I he was probably the only person I mean I spoke to many people
01:42:23 person I mean I spoke to many people that night but he was probably the only him and another friend of mine who actually used to live in the block were the only two people that night I was kind of listening to Tom where it is now to me where it is now and they were
01:42:36 to me where it is now and they were telling me look it's not yeah you're okay for the moment whatever the case may be the advice you're given and this call is an example it is to block up the
01:42:48 call is an example it is to block up the bottom of the door and in fact you say we've already done that yeah and had you by then blocked up the front door yeah and obviously you've
01:43:00 front door yeah and obviously you've told us that you you and you and your family have already made one attempt to leave and now you've blocked up the front door how effective was the was the blocking I mean for me the smoke only
01:43:15 blocking I mean for me the smoke only really got in later later on in the evening or the night what you also say in in the call and I hope you'll take it
01:43:27 in in the call and I hope you'll take it from me but I'll show you the transcripts if you want yeah what you say is that the stairs will be completely full of smoke by now so was there anything that you based that piece
01:43:38 there anything that you based that piece of information on I just I assumed it would have been an assumption for me because I you know at that point I know the fires on the lower ground I've told
01:43:49 the fires on the lower ground I've told them it's on the low ground cuz I can see it's coming from the lower I can also I've also been told by those I'm speaking to on the ground that it's spreading up I think I at some point
01:44:03 spreading up I think I at some point during the night was put on the phone to a police officer but no one could actually say what's going on on this if now my full process and all of this was I'm high up fires low down the fire
01:44:17 was I'm high up fires low down the fire I'd be leaving and going into the fire which started at the bottom so my natural reaction was if someone could let me know what was going on in the stairs I think you know because it was
01:44:29 stairs I think you know because it was at that point still that felt relatively safe the next 99 I call you make is it -
01:44:40 safe the next 99 I call you make is it - OH - and I do want to show you the transcript of that so can we out please l FB 5 zeroes 3 3 8 and just just take page 1 please
01:45:07 what does shape hazed one just so that you can see the time of the call for yourself so and with that introduction can we go page two
01:45:24 and I'm I just want to highlight for you myself there's that there's an answer from the control room operator which begins on the 11th floor so you've given your flat number and you're asked what
01:45:39 your flat number and you're asked what floor are you on you say yeah I think on the 11th and then can you see it's in the if we could expand that in the middle and what the operator says is
01:45:50 middle and what the operator says is that we're passing all the messages over to the crews on the scene and they're going along and they're getting the people out of the flats okay I know it's really scary what if anything did you
01:46:02 really scary what if anything did you take from that piece of information that they had they knew where we were and that they were coming so they were sending people to all the flats that
01:46:13 sending people to all the flats that they were aware people were in in the same call and we're now at 2 o'clock in the morning in the same call and it's on the next page
01:46:32 what'd you say did you see that the second caller down you begin that by saying the smoke alarm hasn't gone off and then you refer to when we had opened the door before because we thought the
01:46:43 the door before because we thought the fire brigade was out there so first question is smoke alarm hasn't gone off in your flat yet yep so at that time and we're two o'clock in the morning what were conditions like in your flat still
01:47:00 were conditions like in your flat still relatively clear no like it wasn't yeah it still it certainly it was quite damp because as I say there was obviously the
01:47:11 because as I say there was obviously the water that that came from the bath there was also the added water that had been shooting through from the fiber gates of the front room was absolutely drenched so any smoke that was coming kind of
01:47:22 so any smoke that was coming kind of died down pretty quick I think there's a bit here that that suggests that potentially this might have been this second attempt that's where we may have tried to go again because I know we
01:47:34 tried to go again because I know we didn't try again but I can't be certain of that but I used certain in your mind there was a second attempt when you tried to go again yeah yeah I'm yeah
01:47:48 tried to go again yeah yeah I'm yeah there was definitely more than one there's definitely more than the first one
01:47:51 one the second yeah this would make sense now because the smoke only came in when the door was open at that point and I think it come in but
01:48:05 at that point and I think it come in but it hadn't set the fire alarm off because it literally came in and kind of it obviously was quite a quick reaction to opening the shutting the door because I think we fought the fire yeah I mean it
01:48:17 think we fought the fire yeah I mean it kind of makes sense now the fire gave her outside so he opened it to kind of go obviously realizing they weren't and shot back the door and then whatever was on the floor kind of just made the kind
01:48:29 on the floor kind of just made the kind of smoke dispersed at that point so it was still relatively clear see what was it that you heard that made you think the fire brigade were outside your flow
01:48:41 the fire brigade were outside your flow I'm thinking now and and I can't be a hunter sensei and it's probably that Anthony may have said to me that that they're outside I think I know I could only assume that
01:48:55 think I know I could only assume that you know he was taking the lead in terms of us leaving so if he was that he would have been at the door and my I said they were there let's go and they weren't so that it's kind of probably where that
01:49:07 that it's kind of probably where that comes from and did you at that point do you remember going to the door yourself I would have always been behind him I was behind him until the moment we left do you remember what the conditions were like in in the rural area at that time
01:49:21 like in in the rural area at that time not in your hallway but on the landing he was and you say that when you opened the door some smoke come in and came in but can you describe that smoke black
01:49:34 but can you describe that smoke black smoke it was big again it was so quick the door showing back that it wouldn't it wasn't a kind of I don't know what
01:49:45 it wasn't a kind of I don't know what you call it it wasn't a plume of smoke came gushing in it would have been a kind of open quick shot back can you remember what color it was it was black at that point yeah and all those you
01:49:57 at that point yeah and all those you said not very much came in didn't have any physical effect on you or Antony or your daughter I can't even I don't know
01:50:10 could I take you just to page four of this transcript please just if you look
01:50:21 this transcript please just if you look at your answer at the very top you're told that they are aware and that's about passing information on you say okay I think it's just spreading above
01:50:32 okay I think it's just spreading above my flat that's the only problem now can you remember now what you were referring to about what was spreading above your flat that would have been about the fire because I'm getting calls to say it's spreaded so it's obviously going up I
01:50:45 spreaded so it's obviously going up I assume I haven't seen it so but I'm getting closer to say it's going up the building so and that was your information the calls coming in from outside rather than something you could
01:50:56 outside rather than something you could see from your flat we had it yeah okay can I have now please on on-screen mlfb50 three four three and page one of
01:51:08 mlfb50 three four three and page one of that document please if you look at the top
01:51:21 this is a another 999 call the next one in the sequence so we've got the time there is 213 and at the end we have the the words esic Essex rather and we know
01:51:34 the words esic Essex rather and we know from other information that that call was put through to Essex Fire and Rescue Service were you aware that at the time
01:51:45 Service were you aware that at the time that your calls being routed to a Fire and Rescue Service other than the lfb I didn't know it gone to Essex I'm pretty
01:51:57 didn't know it gone to Essex I'm pretty certain one of them went to Glasgow but yeah okay if we go to the next page that might help you just with that oh yeah
01:52:11 might help you just with that oh yeah again I don't miss the this is based zone but on other evidence but just to help you miss Alcock Glasgow would have been one of the areas where the beat he
01:52:22 been one of the areas where the beat he call operators would would have seen your call we've gone to a BT operating Glasgow who then have connected it to Essex but you had a memory of Glasgow yeah you might right yeah
01:52:33 yeah you might right yeah and that was exactly what they said because there's they there's delays in London yeah well did it surprise you to be speaking to someone in Glasgow absolutely yeah and what did you think of that time I kind of got why so I
01:52:48 of that time I kind of got why so I suppose you know to hurt them saying to me but Glasgow connected because of the delays in London I get the reason why because obviously we're in a point where a major incidents happening so I can
01:53:02 a major incidents happening so I can only assume that you know they're taking lots of course so yeah I think I was a bit set back by it but for me it was more after I thought the after fall
01:53:14 more after I thought the after fall after I got out was like why the hell was I put through to Glasgow but obviously it makes sense as to why if you go to the next page
01:53:30 on this page you're asked your name and you give your name and then what you say is it looks like it's spreading quite rapidly that's why I'm just getting a
01:53:42 rapidly that's why I'm just getting a bit concerned now and again what was this information based on again a lot of that would have been and and I supposed
01:53:55 that would have been and and I supposed to a degree I need to see kind of the bit in my statement so there then correlates with this conversation but I can take you to that if you want yeah if you don't mind so that I can just work
01:54:07 you don't mind so that I can just work out yeah let's go to page four of your statement please that your first statement so I WS three one zero and if
01:54:18 statement so I WS three one zero and if we expand paragraph 17 and 18 myself calm
01:54:28 so it's paragraph 17 if you want to remind yourself some paragraph that you deal with this call
01:54:40 okay yeah well yeah okay still it doesn't really clear up okay not probably need to see my cool resistor who can I try and put it this way yeah I
01:54:55 who can I try and put it this way yeah I mean you've got two sources of information yeah you've got what you're able to see from your lounge window haven't you yeah and then you've got the information that friends are on the floor on that are calling you on the
01:55:06 floor on that are calling you on the phone and you're you know the bid I showed you is about you're talking about something spreading rapidly and I suppose my question really goes to what was its 2:13 in the morning in your flat
01:55:18 was its 2:13 in the morning in your flat what was your primary source of information a lot of it at that stage would have been what I was being told by people from downstairs I think one of
01:55:29 people from downstairs I think one of the questions I kept Topsy no matter who I spoke to that night was where is it now just tell me where it is now and that's how I probably knew that it was
01:55:41 that's how I probably knew that it was above obviously on the next paragraph we come to why I know it was beside but my primary thought was where is it now
01:55:52 primary thought was where is it now where is it now just tell me where it is and just kind of getting the reassurance from those on the ground really
01:56:06 could we keep that that page I don't know whether we can do this off but if we could have next to it l FB five zeros
01:56:17 we could have next to it l FB five zeros three 6000 five please
01:56:40 so Pat just to set the context for you missile we've got on one side paragraph 18 in particular where you deal with this call and on on the the
01:56:51 deal with this call and on on the the left hand side is the actual transcript itself and the reason I wanted that page because I just wanted to ask you questions about that particular part of the transcript yep
01:57:02 the transcript yep because what you're you're saying now and this is now at 2:32 first of all you described flames as a window
01:57:15 described flames as a window yeah can you remember which window you could see flames at
01:57:20 it's at this time now where are we oh god I am assuming we are now in the bedroom yeah yeah we are probably in the
01:57:35 bedroom yeah yeah we are probably in the bedroom it would have been from the bedroom window is that is that your bedroom yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it
01:57:47 bedroom yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it would have been yeah yeah yeah yeah what you say if you if you look at the tail end of paragraph 18 you say I asked Anthony throw flames coming into the flat you tell me thought that the fire
01:57:58 flat you tell me thought that the fire spread to the flat next door okay yep and you continue flames were starting to enter the kitchen through the window Anthony was putting them out with water from the bath and what you actually say
01:58:10 from the bath and what you actually say to the operator on page five is your ass is that is that flames they're flames coming and then can you see you you
01:58:22 coming and then can you see you you speak to Anthony mm-hmm and you say don't freak out I need to keep calm it's in the flats next door oh and just above that you say it's actually coming into my house now yeah
01:58:33 actually coming into my house now yeah putting all those together yeah so that's Anthony telling me that he's putting so we're in I'm in the bedroom I thought oh he's keeps coming out of the
01:58:44 thought oh he's keeps coming out of the bedroom checking what's going on around the flat he then goes into the kitchen puts out so it's what it it's the little window in the kitchen he puts out a fire
01:58:56 window in the kitchen he puts out a fire there and then he that's when he tells me that he felt the wall which adjoins flyyy one and he then he knew that it
01:59:07 flyyy one and he then he knew that it was next door so that's kind of yeah how that all mixes up really so just so Anthony's dealing with a fire
01:59:18 so just so Anthony's dealing with a fire coming through the kitchen window yep and he does he does he successfully get rid of that yeah yeah you've then got heat on the wall between your flat and
01:59:29 heat on the wall between your flat and flat 81 and then you and then you've got flames at the window of your bedroom no no so I've got that muddled up get lens at the winds are a bit later on in a bedroom but now it kind of makes
01:59:40 on in a bedroom but now it kind of makes sense so him us having that being him having that conversation I'm me having a conversation with her is saying that he's telling me that there's kitchen is on fire he's just put it out but next
01:59:52 on fire he's just put it out but next door is so the flames from next door are obviously coming round and caught on the window but he put that fire out and was that is that the first time that you were aware of sort of flames being that
02:00:03 were aware of sort of flames being that close to your flat yeah if we just on lfb 360 just go a couple of pages back to page three
02:00:21 injustice can't we just expand the bottom half of that page
02:00:33 if you take a look at the top bit of the expanded bit micelle you're asked by the operator at the moment would it be safer for you to leave on your own or not and you say no no I can't see past
02:00:46 not and you say no no I can't see past operator then says you can't see outside you say yeah I can't I don't even I don't even know what I'm doing and then you say that there is smoke coming into your flat but obviously the question
02:00:57 your flat but obviously the question that the operator asks you is whether you could leave and my question is what was it that you couldn't see past the smoke the darkness I mean whatever was
02:01:12 smoke the darkness I mean whatever was going on outside really I think out in the lobby again a lot of these schools oh look what I said in these schools is kind of more of about reaction of not
02:01:23 kind of more of about reaction of not really knowing what was going on but yeah I mean no as I say we've attempted and it was pitch black yeah so I assume
02:01:35 and it was pitch black yeah so I assume that's kind of where I'm going with that I mean I I know it's a difficult question to it yeah but if you put yourself back you you you've made with Antonin your daughter two attempts to
02:01:47 Antonin your daughter two attempts to leave that word you've told us how far the distance was from your yeah you're the stairwell and so my questions he's about putting yourself back to that time
02:01:59 about putting yourself back to that time and we're now talking about 2:30 2:00 in the morning you're making this call what was your sense of what conditions were like in the lobby that there was date
02:02:10 like in the lobby that there was date for me at that point as I say a lot of my judgment was around what how what Anthony was doing or his reaction to
02:02:23 Anthony was doing or his reaction to what was going on outside you know I trusted that his judgment was that we weren't getting out but you know I had the you know for me dealing with
02:02:35 I had the you know for me dealing with that kind of level of smoke or fire whatever the case may be it's not something that that we can deal with it you know I I want you know I I was scared I wanted
02:02:48 want you know I I was scared I wanted the fiber gate to come that's their role in this matter really and I think that's what why we didn't go I I had a big fear
02:02:59 what why we didn't go I I had a big fear about the stairs about what was going on in the stairs had I known what I know now yeah I probably would have left a lot earlier but no one could actually tell me there
02:03:10 but no one could actually tell me there was nothing going on on the stairs no one and that was people that got to the command unit all sorts no one could tell me what's going on under stairs so yeah I yeah I think it was more about the
02:03:22 I yeah I think it was more about the fear of not knowing what was going on outside can I come back to that point about what was going on in stairs mm-hmm a little later if I may and if I don't just remind me but I just want before we
02:03:37 just remind me but I just want before we leave paragraph 18 just to draw your attention to the last sentence of it as you say I could see the fire brigade outside the window and I was shouting for help where were the firefighters that I was shouting to so they were
02:03:50 that I was shouting to so they were literally there was the cherry picker was on the east side obviously at the Sports Center there was another one down by the sports in our there were firefighters on the roof of room for
02:04:02 firefighters on the roof of room for walk yeah they've kind of spread around you could see in yeah yeah down them down on the grounds really and you're
02:04:15 down on the grounds really and you're shouting did you get a new response let's go back to page four of your statement please
02:04:25 and just look at paragraph 19 at the bottom we're moving through your 999 calls but again if you want to see the
02:04:39 calls but again if you want to see the transcript just let me know but I think we can deal with this using the the summary that you provide it because if we look at paragraph 19 this is the next call in sequence of calls which you've
02:04:51 call in sequence of calls which you've given the time at 2:37 which tallies but what you've told the operator that you speak to is the fire was on our landing
02:05:02 speak to is the fire was on our landing and in the transcript you use the word its flames but so you've told us a few moments ago about your sense of what was going on earlier what was it now that
02:05:14 going on earlier what was it now that made you believe that the fire was on the landing because of flighty one so it's like one's my landing so I now know fires on the landing it's in one of the flats on the landing you say you told
02:05:31 flats on the landing you say you told them I hadn't been outside but Anthony had told us a little earlier than Anthony and you said you'd made that those two attempts so had Anthony made a third attempt to try and invest ago I
02:05:42 third attempt to try and invest ago I think this was I'm talking about the one the second attempt where he's gone out and shop at the door and what you also mentioned is the spraying water against
02:05:54 mentioned is the spraying water against the wall of the flat and water coming through again just so that we can be clear is that water coming through the vents in the windows themselves yeah
02:06:08 now when you're when you started off as you've told us you you were in the front
02:06:19 you've told us you you were in the front room an in due course well and there's no dispute overs but you then move into the hallway of your flat what was it the water coming through that pushed you
02:06:31 water coming through that pushed you away for you in the front room yes and if we look at if we compare paragraph 20
02:06:42 if we look at if we compare paragraph 20 please which continues over to the next page
02:06:50 thank you you're now on your eighth call its 244 and what you explained here is that you you've ended up in the bedroom
02:07:01 that you you've ended up in the bedroom closest to the front door so that with that am i right that's your bedroom isn't yeah yeah but in this call what you say is that the front door keeps
02:07:12 you say is that the front door keeps popping and it's hot so just help us with this please myself what did you mean by popping so it was like it was buckling so it's quite difficult to use
02:07:29 buckling so it's quite difficult to use yeah I suppose what I mean by popping is it something's pushing against it to make it kind of buckle or pop or it's quite and whereabouts on the door was
02:07:41 quite and whereabouts on the door was that happen that was in the middle yeah but by the time I remember when we went to the door it pushed itself back it
02:07:52 to the door it pushed itself back it wasn't actually locked in anymore if that makes sense it wasn't say it was jack like it ormally it was jammed but still in difficult to explain so the middle was kind of bummed out but the
02:08:05 middle was kind of bummed out but the actual out bit of it is still in locked in if that makes it so the door was still sat in its frame yeah but the middle bits kind of come out
02:08:16 but the middle bits kind of come out yeah I don't know how to explain it well yeah look the the words you use a moment ago it was as if someone was pushing yes insufficient in the middle and you just
02:08:28 insufficient in the middle and you just give us a sense of the size of the Bulge I mean is it I mean is it comparable to face being pushed again I know it's quite a big bit see it you can it's yeah
02:08:39 quite a big bit see it you can it's yeah you the frame the actual square bit of the frame was still in the outer frame but the middle bit is being pushed in did it as if the door was bulging
02:08:53 did it as if the door was bulging inwards in jail hallway and was that visible to you yeah you could see it coming in and that's the kind of popping thing you could see it like the pressure was pushing it but said something else was it making any
02:09:04 said something else was it making any sound because when I read your statement referring to popping yes I had there was some sound I couldn't yeah I think I meant bulging
02:09:17 I couldn't yeah I think I meant bulging but the popping bulging the kind of same thing for me but I can't say whether there was sound I can't really remember to be honest thank you were you aware of
02:09:30 to be honest thank you were you aware of any sounds coming from the communal area at all I know I remember seeing the door bulging in I don't recall going it's no I I think at one point I did go close to
02:09:42 I I think at one point I did go close to the door enough to see kind of or yeah I mean it's all a bit of a blur and it called kind of gets muddled up but yeah
02:09:53 called kind of gets muddled up but yeah I don't really recall much going on like I don't remember hearing in the outside no I mean the other thing you say about the door is that it's hot yeah hot to the touch so which part of it did you
02:10:04 the touch so which part of it did you touch so you actually put your hand up against the door itself yes at some point I've gone close enough to the door too
02:10:11 too but I can't remember in kind of times cause what that point what point that was what you also described in this cord is smoke coming into the house again
02:10:24 is smoke coming into the house again okay and I I can show you it on the transcript if that will help but if you can help us without that first can you
02:10:35 can help us without that first can you remember we're at that point smoke was coming into your house
02:10:50 I probably think probably at this point it's coming free to get to window
02:10:59 because now let me go seize it probably just to show me let me let's take a look
02:11:10 just to show me let me let's take a look at lfb 5 0 3 7 7 page 1 please so we
02:11:23 at lfb 5 0 3 7 7 page 1 please so we just so that we we've got the time again so 244 that's the call we're talking about go to page 3
02:11:40 so just to give you context miss hell yeah on page 2 is where you mentioned that the door is popping yeah and if you look at the top there the operator says
02:11:52 look at the top there the operator says that means there's probably a fire on the other side yeah you need to stay away from it mm-hmm she then the operator then asks where are you at the moment you said I'm in the hallway because they're spraying the outside of the building it's coming
02:12:04 outside of the building it's coming through the window and operator says they're spraying it's okay what side of the room flat would be safer for you to be in is there a room there isn't that
02:12:15 be in is there a room there isn't that hasn't got smoke in it and they operate then asks you again is there a room that hasn't got smoke in it and you say there's smoke right outside my windows coming in my house please and you can
02:12:27 coming in my house please and you can you then say your ass have you shut your window and you say yeah yeah yeah so first question then is can you remember which you're in the hallway yeah so this
02:12:39 which you're in the hallway yeah so this is all now happening around the kitchen front front room so it's all the smoke coming from there yeah everything it's
02:12:50 coming from there yeah everything it's coming from that side because we haven't moved into the reason we're in the hallway is because of the pressure from the hose so that's the reason we're in a home when I've made that call because it
02:13:01 home when I've made that call because it was so powerful that it would knock you out like this come through it such a force it would it it pushed open that kind of the vent and the window so we've moved into the hallway because now the smoke is all way around we round up
02:13:13 smoke is all way around we round up around the kitchen straight front of house and you're asked have you shut the windows and you say yes I mean do you
02:13:25 windows and you say yes I mean do you remember having the windows of the front room and the kitchen they were all those other than that vent bit so does that help you to tell us how the smoke was getting in because I think by now the kitchen window had popped so it was
02:13:38 kitchen window had popped so it was coming in so the kitchen the little kitchen windows yeah now what no glass in it because that's the one with fire in and on and Anthony put out so I think that's where the smoke was coming in
02:13:49 that's where the smoke was coming in from and what about in the front room how was smoke getting in there I'm actually not sure I think when I say to you that there's a possibility that it could have been the vent in the first time er yeah I'm not going to say to you
02:14:03 time er yeah I'm not going to say to you that 100% push the window open but it could have pushed the window open I'm not sure if I just take you just so
02:14:18 I'm not sure if I just take you just so that we can just keep trying to have the chronology going if you go to page five in this call
02:14:34 what you said it's in the middle I'll just read it out you say please tell them to hurry now please please I've got a daughter I'm going into the back bedroom which is near the front door and
02:14:45 bedroom which is near the front door and the operator confirms that so and then
02:14:56 the operator confirms that so and then and then the Opera says you think there's a fire outside the front door you say yes it looks like the front doors hot please the windows getting hot everything and the operator says I'm going to tell them exactly where you are
02:15:07 going to tell them exactly where you are so so which window was getting hot again I think that's probably the key I yeah I can't tell you which one I'm talking
02:15:19 can't tell you which one I'm talking about at that point because we not we've left the front room so yeah again it could be just a reaction kind of thing same look hurry up what you've also
02:15:43 so I'll leave I'll come back to it if I um mr. chair I'm just gonna go onto
02:15:57 um mr. chair I'm just gonna go onto another call but I think I've been going for 50 minutes and I think I see myself nodding that I'd be 50 she did agree yes
02:16:08 nodding that I'd be 50 she did agree yes please if that's okay well of course we shall have a break ten minutes for 20 past 12:00 please don't talk to anyone about your evidence and off you go with the Usher thank you
02:16:30 just for my benefit mr. rabbit are we getting on I'm we might go over lunch I think but I'm going to try and and and
02:16:41 think but I'm going to try and and and and cut it down a little bit some I can okay thank you very much 21st twelve
02:25:59 you
02:27:59 you
02:28:11 like you like to ask the witness to come back please
02:28:31 all right thank you very much yes thank you mr. Chen miss elcott thank you for coming back could we please have your statement now and our iws 3 1 0 page 5
02:28:45 statement now and our iws 3 1 0 page 5 please we have paragraphs 22 to 24
02:28:54 moving forward in time now miss helicopter it's 3 o'clock and you make another call to the emergency services and again tell me if you want to go back
02:29:06 and again tell me if you want to go back and look at the transcript you've summarized that call in paragraph 22 and when what you say is that you you say
02:29:18 when what you say is that you you say the fire was outside my front door and there was smoke in the flat what you said actually to the call operator was
02:29:29 said actually to the call operator was that there was smoke everywhere they smoke in my house everywhere so we've moved about 16 minutes forward in time from the last call how had the smoke
02:29:42 from the last call how had the smoke conditions changed in your flat in that time so I think at this point we are in
02:29:53 time so I think at this point we are in the bedroom and if I'm right in believing on the previous course told to get some air so he was opening the
02:30:05 get some air so he was opening the bedroom window and that's probably how the smoke came in that kind of area that I was in yeah do you still have a recollection of smoke coming in through
02:30:18 recollection of smoke coming in through the the kitchen no I think I think also all the doors were shut so like
02:30:29 all the doors were shut so like everything was shut and only opened as and when
02:30:34 and when we kind of went through that way it's possible that the smoke was in the hallway due to it coming from wherever but I know that there was points when we
02:30:45 but I know that there was points when we were in the bedroom that and I was pretty so I was told to open them get some air from the bedroom window and that's what was letting in a lot the smoke that was now outside and we were opening the windows to call out to let
02:30:57 opening the windows to call out to let them know that we were there and at that time it's three o'clock in the morning what was was the level of smoke in your property such that you couldn't see through it or no it was definitely grey
02:31:09 through it or no it was definitely grey but it wasn't it wasn't you could still see yeah you could still see it it was it was smoky really like smoky but it wasn't I couldn't see where I was going or it didn't like obstruct what what was
02:31:23 or it didn't like obstruct what what was going on and with the lights and your flat still working so this is I think so yeah I mean I know the and I say at the
02:31:34 yeah I mean I know the and I say at the end that just before we get out the TV switches itself off but I think yeah the electric was still working I don't recall having the lights on if that makes sense they could have been on but I can't remember your your daughter's in the
02:31:51 remember your your daughter's in the bedroom she did you spend most of your time in the bedroom yes and was it Antony who is really moving around the flat yes the smoke that there was in the
02:32:02 flat yes the smoke that there was in the flat did have any physical effect on you a lot of the time especially I was in the bedroom I was laying on the floor with my daughter just trying to keep her
02:32:13 with my daughter just trying to keep her calm really it probably did but it wasn't something I couldn't say to you here and now that I remember I don't
02:32:24 here and now that I remember I don't know I wasn't I would have coughed but not think or anything like that so what the operator tells you and you say she
02:32:36 the operator tells you and you say she asked if I could get out because they were advising everyone to leave their flats and then you set out the advice that you were given and then you say Anthony opened the door and said we couldn't get out but I told him at the call handle had told me we had to try
02:32:49 call handle had told me we had to try and you're we see the redaction it's a reference to your daughter's name you told her to put something over head and approached the door the call handler which wished me luck so just to set out for us the
02:33:02 so just to set out for us the preparations that you were making you and Anthony to leave at this point I
02:33:08 assumed the towels that we would have had yeah following that instruction really I supposed to put something over
02:33:19 really I supposed to put something over our heads cover our faces at this point like everything was being used clothes towels bed sheets everything so it would
02:33:32 towels bed sheets everything so it would have been a case of grabbing something to cover ourselves with and you remember going to the bathroom and soaking anything
02:33:41 anything I recall Anthony doing that I recorded Sydney going into the bathroom and basically handing me something and again
02:33:52 basically handing me something and again you first Anthony opening the door so what was sequence of the three of you so again get into the door he would have like I almost done and again this is an assumption but I'm saying to him that
02:34:04 assumption but I'm saying to him that this is what we've been told to do he's gone to do that
02:34:13 he we've got the tank at this point we've already got towels around a slight I think like we were using so much as I say everything was being used in the flap and I think he's gone to the door
02:34:27 flap and I think he's gone to the door and again you know it was more it was more his judgment I think by now we're so scared all of us there yeah yeah I
02:34:40 so scared all of us there yeah yeah I don't know I think yeah I'm just relaying what being said on the nine nine nine to be fair to him and he's tried and that's when he opens the door
02:34:51 tried and that's when he opens the door and that big wave that and that point now a huge amount of smoke comes in and as I put in the next part that's when the smoke alarms went off and was that the first time a smoke alarm went off
02:35:02 the first time a smoke alarm went off and do you remember one smoke alarm going off for both I'm not sure which one it was but one of him it wasn't loud like wasn't yeah it wasn't yeah like a
02:35:14 like wasn't yeah it wasn't yeah like a loud sound but it definitely did go off this started to be said a few minutes ago when the door was open a huge amount of smoke came in at this point like the largest amounts described for us that the smoke point
02:35:27 the smoke point yeah just completely black smoke now thick black smoke were you in the hallway way and I would have been like by the yeah by the because I think at
02:35:38 by the yeah by the because I think at this point the door we were I knew the door was hot we would weren't sure if there was fire outside the door and yeah I think obviously I I stood back I
02:35:50 I think obviously I I stood back I suppose I mean yeah I let him open the door and that's when that kind of massive wave of smoke came in and did then it was just back shutting the door
02:36:02 then it was just back shutting the door like he was scared I was scared and did that one smoke have any physical effect on the two of you I yeah I couldn't tell you I don't know probably I probably
02:36:13 you I don't know probably I probably cost I mean if that kind of it comes in it you wouldn't actually coughed I don't think there was no like difficulty to breathe or anything like that did you when you've described a very
02:36:25 did you when you've described a very brief opening of the door at this point but did you get a sense of what conditions were like on the lobby it hadn't changed it was still black you
02:36:36 hadn't changed it was still black you couldn't you know when you open the door you could only see a wall anyway if the other lights are not on you know the lights are on you only see a wall we don't see unless you step out that's when you see the whole landing
02:36:47 that's when you see the whole landing but at that point just the head was just as black as this microphone inside and what about the lighting in that area there was no lighting it was completely
02:36:58 there was no lighting it was completely dark it was pitch black it's never I've never in 20 years seen it you know even when we might have had a power course for me it doesn't go that dark because the emergency light
02:37:09 that dark because the emergency light and would naturally come on back in the day but yeah it was pitch black there was no yeah did you know if there was emergency lighting on on the communal
02:37:20 emergency lighting on on the communal area at that time
02:37:23 again it's not something you I think years before like when we might have had a power cut you open the door to see if the lights have gone off in there like you naturally kind of see or if everyone
02:37:34 you naturally kind of see or if everyone else he's got the same issues you think there might have been an emergency light in back in the day but that night there's only weren't no lights in that landed if we look at paragraph change
02:37:47 landed if we look at paragraph change before it's three minutes go by and you all you're connected again to the fire service and you say you told them it was impossible to leave my flat because it was too hot on the landing so just that
02:38:02 was too hot on the landing so just that we clear was it was that following that that what you've just described us a brief opening of the door and closing it and then you dialed 999 again yeah and you say it's too hot on the landing so
02:38:14 you say it's too hot on the landing so tell us what what sense did you have of the temperature on the landing you could feel it you could feel that when the kind of door opened the heat was quite intense like it it was hot I mean it was
02:38:30 intense like it it was hot I mean it was it was fire hot it wasn't it wasn't there's nothing else to describe it what kind of fire hot heat hot like yeah
02:38:48 if we look back at paragraph 22 you say again you could hear the dog popping and it was really hot so you told us before we have the break that it was more of the watching the door buckle oh but you
02:39:02 the watching the door buckle oh but you use the word here so you could actually hear something happening to the dog can you describe what the door looked like at that time again it's it bulging
02:39:14 at that time again it's it bulging inwards it's not it's no longer flat it's no longer straight it it's it's
02:39:25 it's no longer straight it it's it's coming in what's it's bolted in with its I suppose buckling and I suppose if I think why I would say I could hear the door popping is you could hear it pushing itself back I think and so what
02:39:42 pushing itself back I think and so what you could have to have a picture of a door that has just buckled and so distorted in shape yeah was it actually changing the shape yes it's like it expanding it kind of inwards yeah and was it always expanding or is it
02:39:54 was it always expanding or is it shrinking and expanding I know it was expanding if we look at boom power often
02:40:06 expanding if we look at boom power often for again this is that this is that look the call swiftly made and you're told again that the advice in is to leave now
02:40:17 again that the advice in is to leave now you've had a series of 9999 calls where you've essentially been told to remain in your flat this is now the second call first one at 3-way you're told you have
02:40:29 first one at 3-way you're told you have to leave in terms of the advice that you've been given what was going through your mind at that time by now yeah beyond scared now I yeah I I think I
02:40:44 beyond scared now I yeah I I think I think it's at this call or maybe the later one whereas you know why wasn't I told I was going to leave why won't you know I mean obviously you look at the kind of events of the night
02:40:56 look at the kind of events of the night as time goes on and you know my levels of anxiety have gone through the roof you know I'm now absolutely crapping
02:41:07 you know I'm now absolutely crapping myself that I'm gonna die so III had fun for me there was no I I
02:41:18 so III had fun for me there was no I I think I was scared to the point of kind of being rooted to where we were to be honest I thought I just didn't think I could and I just didn't have it in me to
02:41:29 could and I just didn't have it in me to leave to be fair that's the bottom line of it if we go down to the next paragraph as well and look at 25
02:41:43 in paragraph 25 you're calling back again so you've had a call that's timed at 303 we've now got a call timed at 304
02:41:54 at 303 we've now got a call timed at 304 in between those two calls so the 303 call is if you've taken from me is it lasts for 40 seconds in between those two calls did you try and leave again
02:42:05 two calls did you try and leave again and what you say in paragraph 25 about this this core which I think it's now your 11th call but what you say is that
02:42:17 your 11th call but what you say is that you told them it wasn't possible to leave because of the heat coming from the hot landing and you ask them to send a cherry picker why did you ask for a
02:42:30 a cherry picker why did you ask for a cherry picker I think it's so at this point obviously I'd seen that out there very early on I knew it was here I knew
02:42:41 very early on I knew it was here I knew it was there I knew it was out so he was looking at me I was looking at him I just actually thought that was the only way I was gonna get out of there you know no one had come at this point no
02:42:53 know no one had come at this point no firefighters you know I'd been told someone was coming they knew but it didn't seem like that message was getting anywhere and I suppose I'm just now at this point where I'm basically
02:43:04 now at this point where I'm basically begging for anything to happen you know I've been told by you know to jump you know all sorts of stuff was happening from downstairs and it wasn't saying I was prepared to do but you yeah I think
02:43:18 was prepared to do but you yeah I think you know i'm at i'm at i'm absolutely in despair now because I'm actually losing
02:43:26 their will you know this wasn't how it was supposed to happen this is not you know someone should have come by now and
02:43:37 know someone should have come by now and I was losing faith rapidly so I think I was oxen just to do anything really if you look at the last but one sentence of that paragraph what you say about call
02:43:49 that paragraph what you say about call and I can take you to the parts of that transcript if you need it but you she also told me that there are more aerial ladders arising whilst we were on the phone did you take anything from
02:44:00 the phone did you take anything from that I think because obviously I mentioned the cherry picker and which obviously is the aerial ladder but I
02:44:12 obviously is the aerial ladder but I think you know for me it was like saying look we're doing we're gonna get you out you know it's this point I still believe they were I think I was just really
02:44:29 they were I think I was just really confused I probably took it if yeah we're gonna send someone and they're gonna get you out I think that's how I took it again if you want to see the
02:44:40 took it again if you want to see the transcript tell me but but in the transcript or the control room operator says is that she's going to tell them that you're stuck okay do you remember her telling you that
02:45:03 could I go then to the next page and let's look at paragraph 26 and 27 please
02:45:21 26 deals with the next Colin that you made which is 313 and you began by saying that I knew I'd rung a lot but
02:45:32 saying that I knew I'd rung a lot but would they please send someone to come and get us I told them I couldn't leave because there was fire outside the front door you've told us about what you what you'd seen when you tried to open the front door was there and had you picked up on
02:45:44 door was there and had you picked up on anything else about what was going on on the landing by this time
02:45:59 you're asked also whether you can go down the stairs one of the things you say in the course that you can't go down the stairs how far had you been a Jew will Antony been able to get from your
02:46:10 will Antony been able to get from your flat no we didn't attempt to go downstairs again because I've in my head there was fire on the stairs so yeah and
02:46:21 there was fire on the stairs so yeah and I don't think anyone could tell me otherwise you say in your head there was fire down the stairs so to just help us
02:46:32 fire down the stairs so to just help us with it so as I say I said earlier the fire was low I knew from the off the fire was low I obviously knew it was spreading I'm on the 11th the fly was on
02:46:44 spreading I'm on the 11th the fly was on the 4th but that went off with its people 6 but either way I knew it was lower than me there's only one one way out if the fires below and you're above it you're going into it and that was my
02:46:57 it you're going into it and that was my thought process that there was fire on the stairs if you look at the last part of paragraph 26 the operation says she asked where we were and I told her in
02:47:08 asked where we were and I told her in the bedroom she asked if we could open a window for fresh air I told her the fire was outside the window so is that is that a reference to the bet there was now fire on the cladding on the outside and and that's a view I mean your your
02:47:22 and and that's a view I mean your your daughter's bedroom and would have been next to yours anyway but the two bedrooms faced in the same direction yeah what was it it was was it the window of your bedroom that you yes so there's like a a column that goes out with in like a triangle and there was
02:47:35 with in like a triangle and there was like sheets of the material on the side and that had called flames by now but again because the firefighters run the the walkway they were able to extinguish
02:47:48 the walkway they were able to extinguish it I want to show you one page from the transcript can we have lfb five zeros four one zero and page six of that
02:48:00 four one zero and page six of that document please
02:48:06 we look at the top part of it
02:48:13 the operator says they're trying to get to you believe me but our advice is if you can you're just going to have to and then you say in my front room it's in my house now so you're in the bedroom yeah
02:48:26 house now so you're in the bedroom yeah and you're talking about some it be what's the it that's in your house now this is now Anthony relaying that he's that he's now in and out in and out
02:48:37 that he's now in and out in and out putting out the fire in the other rooms so as it was trying to get in he was putting it out so that's me saying to her look I know it's tried to get in in
02:48:48 her look I know it's tried to get in in the front room again I suppose in panic I'm saying look it's here and it is this it's in my house yeah again it's that
02:49:01 it's in my house yeah again it's that principle of hurry up and so it was Antony relaying back to you what he yet he was seeing what he was dealing with yeah and in terms of what what
02:49:12 yeah and in terms of what what information did he tell you about what has happened to the front room he's just said and I've just had to put fire out in front room did he tell you whether anything had happened to the windows at that time in front of them no not really no just Sony obviously it was coming in
02:49:24 no just Sony obviously it was coming in for by the I'm assuming via the windows and he was putting it out and that's the same for the middle bedroom is well he
02:49:35 same for the middle bedroom is well he had to put fire in there if you go to page seven of this document with this transcript are you alright yeah yeah yeah I'm fine yeah and if you just need
02:49:47 yeah I'm fine yeah and if you just need a moment to yeah you're you're told if the fires coming in you need to get out
02:49:58 the fires coming in you need to get out and you respond in conversation I know I know all right all right I'm going to try it
02:50:06 try it did you try and leave again
02:50:15 I'm really not sure we may have done but I don't feel so if I'm really honest we
02:50:27 I don't feel so if I'm really honest we go back to the same part of your statement please in paragraph 2 page 6 of the iaws 310 and paragraph 27
02:50:39 and this is now another call that you've made in fact it's the thirteenth call you made that night on where you're connected to nine nine nine and again if
02:50:50 connected to nine nine nine and again if you need to see the transcript myself up just tell me yeah but I hope you take all of this for me but in the core you confirm that you're in the room furthest away from the fire and would that have
02:51:02 away from the fire and would that have been your bedroom you also say that the house is full of smoke that fires incoming into the bedroom and the front
02:51:13 incoming into the bedroom and the front room and that it's baking hot you then say it's in your daughter's bedroom so just against that mataji help us with what was the progress of the fire in
02:51:24 what was the progress of the fire in relation to your flat at that time the progress of the liar yeah in terms of what was happening in terms of fire getting into your flat at that time what were you see it just kept coming so at
02:51:35 were you see it just kept coming so at this point we're in the bedroom I'm laying low the you can see the stuff flying out of the the tower I'm still
02:51:47 flying out of the the tower I'm still taking calls from people on the ground so I now know it's really spreaded it's in the panel in adjacent to the window and then I know there's gone into the
02:51:59 and then I know there's gone into the next bedroom my children's bedroom because Anthony's just put the fire out in there as I said he was doing a lot of moving around so I was able to relay what was going on around but when I yeah
02:52:11 what was going on around but when I yeah supposed to fire was what I could physically see was it falling from you could see the collector clad in falling from the building pass in the window you could see it catching on the on the on
02:52:26 could see it catching on the on the on the cladding next to the window
02:52:32 and in terms of the temperature in your flat at that time what was it like it was starting to get warm now that that mixture of work is that when we were in this bedroom this is the one that we
02:52:43 this bedroom this is the one that we kept opening the window to get some air in and be cool for help so that's now the smoke was kind of
02:52:54 so that's now the smoke was kind of going around the whole building at this point and that's how it was coming back in so now it was getting smoke here in the room and he actually gets to a point where we have to leave that room that it is too smoky but he's starting to get
02:53:07 is too smoky but he's starting to get quite warm as well with the smoke having any physical effect on you or your daughter again we were others on the floor most of the time being in that room I had to yeah just just try and
02:53:23 room I had to yeah just just try and stay calm for my daughter but so spend a lot at the time I put TV down and we just laid on the floor and I was just kind of telling her that everything was
02:53:34 kind of telling her that everything was gonna be all right both if we read off this paragraph or your statement where you deal with this core and we read the transcript itself the advice that you're
02:53:45 transcript itself the advice that you're given is you have to leave and you say you can't do it so what were your concerns about making another attempt to go after in your front door it my full
02:53:58 go after in your front door it my full process hasn't changed I am now by this point I suppose resigning myself to that
02:54:15 you know that I'm gonna die
02:54:23 but
02:54:32 I had to I had to beg them to come and get me um tonight which we just take a I
02:54:47 get me um tonight which we just take a I just yeah for me you know at this point
02:55:00 it didn't go the way it was supposed to go they were supposed to be there by now no matter how many times I called them I
02:55:15 just felt by now they were just they weren't listening but I'd given up by now but I knew I had
02:55:32 but I'd given up by now but I knew I had to get out because my children can I just ask you would would never be fired up you finally said I know you're doing really well understand the difficulty
02:55:45 really well understand the difficulty what I was going to ask you was we could if you like stop for lunch no no yeah please that's right miss hell can I also
02:56:01 please that's right miss hell can I also say that I appreciate that I've asked you a lot of detailed questions and we are very grateful for that the care and wish you've shown in answering questions and the time you're taking hopefully I
02:56:13 and the time you're taking hopefully I won't be very much longer with you but can I just take you to the last call that you make and I just want to ask you about one part of it if I may and it
02:56:26 about one part of it if I may and it it's a call that you make it can we have please lfb five zeros forty-nine
02:56:39 and if I explain this is you deal with this transcript in your supplementary statements I won't take you to the supplementary center so I just want to ask you about one part of it and if I
02:56:55 ask you about one part of it and if I take you
02:56:56 take you it's tells us the time it's a four thirty three in the morning so we've moved on for an hour and it's it's if we go to page five of this document please
02:57:12 if you look at the again again just to put it in context this is a call where you're again given the advice to leave and if we read it what you say is about
02:57:31 and if we read it what you say is about conditions outside then you express your concern about the stairwell what guidance were you wanting to be given about conditions outside your flat what
02:57:42 about conditions outside your flat what did you want to know I just need I think it was a mixture of you know I think if
02:57:56 it was a mixture of you know I think if they'd been told there was no fire on the stairs if someone could have told to me that there was no fire on the stairs I think I doubt I'd be sitting here
02:58:08 I think I doubt I'd be sitting here today I just think that because I knew you as I say the fire was low I was high
02:58:16 it was going from somewhere where I felt relatively safe because whilst I was scared
02:58:28 I still had this in my head that someone was going to come and that's what they
02:58:39 was going to come and that's what they do and yeah I just disturb the stairs for me was probably it's one way out you can only get down the stairs and if
02:58:50 can only get down the stairs and if there's fire on this dais I'm likely gonna die on the stairs and I yeah I just didn't want to to do that you say in the transcriptase you say to the
02:59:02 in the transcriptase you say to the operator
02:59:03 operator honestly I'm safe you might how's it at the minute but I need to know someone's coming to get me what was it that made you feel that the conditions inside your flat was safe because at this point you know yes it
02:59:14 because at this point you know yes it was by now we've actually moved from the bedroom we've moved into the middle bedroom got stuck in there because there
02:59:26 bedroom got stuck in there because there was no handle on the door so at some point ants and he comes and he says there's no let's go into the middle bedroom we go into the middle bedroom shut the door and this room was
02:59:37 shut the door and this room was relatively clear like and I mean really by now the sunland had pretty much arisen but you could see it was like there was no smoke in there with the window had gone like the window there
02:59:48 window had gone like the window there was no longer a small window there but that had obviously broken but there was it was it was completely kind of clear you could see what was dead so we went
03:00:00 you could see what was dead so we went in there but as I say the hands when the door's broke locked the door and then realized oh god we're stuck so luckily found some scissors managed to reopen the door and and then obviously we were
03:00:16 the door and and then obviously we were now I think this call was made from him they're like this is very yeah I don't know really to be honest this if this is my last call I could actually be in the front room by now because we then moved
03:00:27 front room by now because we then moved back into the front room I think by now you say it's for 43 for 33 for 33 so yeah no I think by now I've spoken too much this stuff
03:00:41 but yeah I've spoken to my sister and then yeah I think we're actually in the front room by now but I still felt at that point that you know there is no
03:00:53 that point that you know there is no fire yes this smoke yes the buildings on fire but I'm still safer in there than I am going down the stairs but we just jump back one page to page for a moment
03:01:04 jump back one page to page for a moment please
03:01:18 if you look at the second bit where you say caller there's a bit enough yeah that's just the reaction sorry that's why I'm kind of laughing thank you well let's just let this ask you to explain
03:01:29 let's just let this ask you to explain your reaction if we can because you're told at the top you need to make your way downstairs though and you respond we need to make our ways downstairs so I'm actually been really do you know what there's fire on the stairs my
03:01:40 what there's fire on the stairs my husband's just gone out there did did he go out no that's me basically saying and I can't even say what I'm about to say put it's me basically saying are you
03:01:52 put it's me basically saying are you serious but we need to make our way down the stairs I'm now exceptionally frustrated and by the language that I'm using in there that's me trying to politely say just yeah yeah don't yeah
03:02:07 politely say just yeah yeah don't yeah you're yeah I can't I just not going to say cliff I was I'm going to swear but yeah that's just me being kind of frustrated by what I'm being told it's
03:02:18 frustrated by what I'm being told it's not what I want to hear and I'm responding to that there is no kind of element of truth in that that makes sense I'm just yeah exaggerating and getting frustrated by
03:02:29 exaggerating and getting frustrated by of what he what I'm being told can I go back then to your statement and just and we're almost finished yeah that helps but just go back to page seven of
03:02:40 helps but just go back to page seven of your first statement
03:02:48 and paragraph 30 down so and again just to help you with the time sequence you've given a time of 427 when you speak to your sister Deniz we've looked
03:03:00 speak to your sister Deniz we've looked at the transcript for 33 now you then say you spoke to the knees again at 437 yep and you described in this in this
03:03:11 yep and you described in this in this paragraph that your sister was effectively directing the firemen so yes so she had not long come down to when I spoke to her she for 27 or maybe yeah
03:03:26 spoke to her she for 27 or maybe yeah for 27 she'd just pretty much come down to the area and she managed to find a fire crew on the ground and told them
03:03:39 fire crew on the ground and told them that I was stuck in there still she stood with the fire fire our diet basically telling them I'm on the 11th floor she stayed with him and what I'm
03:03:53 floor she stayed with him and what I'm saying is that she kept saying she's talking to me on the phone but stanzin extremes and she can hear what's happening on the radio so she then says to me look they're on their way up they're on their way up and we're
03:04:05 they're on their way up and we're getting ready so we're now in the corridor getting ready Anthony was by the door and then she says to me they're outside her door Anthony was shouting
03:04:17 outside her door Anthony was shouting and then she says no sorry they've gone to the wrong floor but then we stir she said but they're coming for you now and then Anthony continues to shout and then
03:04:29 then Anthony continues to shout and then Denise can hear Anthony on the radio so we now know that they're outside the front door and that's when she said they were outside the door and that's when I told him he open the door and then we went and when you you say when you left
03:04:43 went and when you you say when you left from them there was quite a lot of gray smoke so was that any different to smoke that have been in your flat before oh it was worse than so it was as I say you
03:04:57 was worse than so it was as I say you know I put it there that my front room was white so now it was great so there was smoking there it was it wasn't it wasn't fit fit fit that you couldn't see but there was definitely smoking there can we expand
03:05:10 definitely smoking there can we expand on this page just let's have paragraphs 30 down to the bottom of the page by now what was the temperature like in your flat it was really wall yeah really well not like unbearably warm but you've
03:05:28 not like unbearably warm but you've already told us what what we see it well first one which is Anthony opening the front door and then could you actually see any firefighters when you got in the front door so what could you see Anthony
03:05:40 front door so what could you see Anthony went in front he had my jaw in his arms and I was literally holding on to him and he just followed their instructions and then we liked it down the stairs
03:05:53 and then we liked it down the stairs really and was it just a voice you were hearing it was yeah I was behind them to me so he heard a voice and we were in it so and did you see the torch I didn't
03:06:05 so and did you see the torch I didn't know he did you then move into stairwell as to show you legged it down the stairs were the conditions any different from the stairwell I'm gonna that's one of
03:06:16 the stairwell I'm gonna that's one of this is one of the simple but not straightforward questions you've got the conditions on the lobby and then you move into the stairwell you're still on on your floor were the conditions when
03:06:27 on your floor were the conditions when you move from lobby to stairwell any different so they were the same for about three floors obviously we went down couple floors we all tripped it says in life statement and then as we
03:06:41 says in life statement and then as we went down another maybe one or two so by now I think we're probably on the seventh or sixth floor all of a sudden it started to get brighter by the time we got to the full floor the lights were
03:06:53 we got to the full floor the lights were completely on you could see where you were going you could see balls I could see hoses on the floor I mean don't get wrong we wasn't even real real quick but yeah and then I when we got around the full floor
03:07:06 then I when we got around the full floor I remember as we came down it was a fire fire woman there and I remember her looking up but that was the only person other than the person higher up that I'd seen on this
03:07:18 person higher up that I'd seen on this stairs but all of a sudden the lights was as bright as they are in this room
03:07:24 mr. Shermer I've reached the end of my questions but I don't know whether we want to lunchtime break we'll have a short five minutes to see can I just
03:07:37 short five minutes to see can I just have an indication from counsel how many counsel need to speak to mr. rubber to the stage
03:07:50 but would it be satisfactory rather than a Swiss uncock Taggart the broom hang her out and come back in again if she and I just ignore the rest of you and allow you to speak privately no now I'm
03:08:04 allow you to speak privately no now I'm inviting you to do it and anyone else who I'm not trying to suppress anyone who's got questions but I think we could probably do this rather more economically than we have sometimes all
03:08:15 economically than we have sometimes all right well you and I can ignore what see whether any more questions
03:09:25 so if I may just buzz yes yes and thank you again for your patience just help them and I might slightly jump around a
03:09:37 them and I might slightly jump around a little bit but just to pick it up at the point your descent downstairs can you remember how you describe encountering
03:09:48 remember how you describe encountering firefighters and not seeing anybody you were behind Antony but as you went down did you have a sense of what the firefighters were doing as you went down I'm not I didn't see them I've only seen
03:10:02 I'm not I didn't see them I've only seen in the stills I've seen when I obviously see myself come out I assumed they were at the front I know when we encountered
03:10:13 at the front I know when we encountered what we encountered on the stairs that I've got held I don't now thinking about I assume someone must they must one must have been behind me because as we went
03:10:24 have been behind me because as we went down the stairs and we all stumbled I got kind of straightened up by some body so yeah thank you I'm going to jump back onto
03:10:37 thank you I'm going to jump back onto another topic that we're asking about for and I want to show you a photograph again nothing distressing and it's a photograph was shown before can I have BL a four zeros four five three one
03:10:50 BL a four zeros four five three one please
03:10:58 thank you
03:11:02 this is a photograph Purcell for taken during the refurbishment so you can see the green canopy that says over the front entrance you go up you've got the scaffolding and then can you see the windows and above that it
03:11:13 you see the windows and above that it looks like a sort of square grill do you remember that you told me and some time ago about and the noise that you heard from outside the tower does that picture help you to tell us where you heard that
03:11:25 help you to tell us where you heard that noise coming from now it doesn't my assumption was the noise was coming to again to the left of that picture on the ground floor that's not to say that it could have been
03:11:38 not to say that it could have been coming from if that's where it came from if we're weather vent was but it was definitely down you heard it as you came in the doors I am pretty Sony is to the
03:11:50 in the doors I am pretty Sony is to the left of that picture as we're looking at it yeah thank you if that's the entrance again I I don't know how that pictures been taken if that's coming in from growing for a walk at Springfield Road
03:12:02 growing for a walk at Springfield Road then yeah it's from the left thank you I also asked you to remember I showed you those two photographs of floor six and asked you about vents and you
03:12:14 and asked you about vents and you correct me please if my recollection is wrong but I think you said that the grilles that I'd shown you or the vents that I'd shown you came off the refurbishment then you are correcting me
03:12:28 refurbishment then you are correcting me sake just so that we can be clear but did you notice that those vents that on your floor before the refurbishment so those holes were there they definitely changed something within them I don't
03:12:39 changed something within them I don't know what was there before but there was still something there those yeah them squares were there I'm pretty certain they were you aware then before the refurbishment of a type of vent on your floor in the communal
03:12:51 of vent on your floor in the communal area I never actually knew what they were for but I'm pretty certain them two holes were there before them two squares were there before yeah they were there before
03:13:00 before because the Thailand Thailand was done many many years ago in the floors and I'm pretty certain yeah if they had put those vents in if they put those vents
03:13:12 those vents in if they put those vents in during the refurbishment then I'm sure the tiles would have changed but I'm pretty certain that they were there before me I think they changed the grilles if I'm right in thinking but I
03:13:23 grilles if I'm right in thinking but I don't recall the actual winds changing
03:13:28 you may also remember that I showed you a photograph of the pipes running one floor above a flat - were you aware of
03:13:41 floor above a flat - were you aware of pipes in the stairwell as well yeah again because I was one of the flats that was affected by the lack of gas I was aware of a lot of the process of
03:13:52 was aware of a lot of the process of what was going on with the gas situation know that they put it in the stairwell because National Grid actually wanted to put the pipe on the outside of the building but because the building had
03:14:03 building but because the building had been recently cladded the council whoever it was it makes those decisions said no it needed to go and Sarah and I remember having a conversation with someone from National Grid about that
03:14:15 someone from National Grid about that and say before those pipes were put in that we looked at you you didn't have pipes like that outside your no because my gas pipe was in my behind my kitchen there's a cut there in between the
03:14:27 there's a cut there in between the toilet in the kitchen there was a cupboard and the gas pipe runs in there
03:14:35 there's all the questions I have mr. Chen bar one missile before I ask this question can I once again thank you
03:14:46 this question can I once again thank you I appreciate it's been a long morning but I think we also all should recognize that you've dealt the questions the questions I've put you with great care with a great degree of patience as well
03:14:58 with a great degree of patience as well and so my final question to you is this putting aside what you've put in your statement and your supplementary statement and also the answers that you've given to me today is there
03:15:11 you've given to me today is there anything else about what you saw or what you heard on the night of the fire that you think it's important to draw to the attention of the chairman
03:15:28 in terms of what I saw that night what I heard that night what I know since that night you know we all know that it
03:15:40 night you know we all know that it should never have happened and we will get to how it happened our guest this is about what happened that night but I just like to highlight
03:15:51 that night but I just like to highlight that that night was probably the most horrific night that anyone could go who
03:16:06 horrific night that anyone could go who and what's happened since that night is something that no one should have to go through not only did I lose my home not
03:16:18 through not only did I lose my home not only did I lose neighbors and friends that night I lost my uncle my mom's brother he lived four floors above me
03:16:29 brother he lived four floors above me and he never made it out and for that reason it's imperative that this never happens again no one should ever have to
03:16:43 happens again no one should ever have to go through what we've had to go through and I put my trust in you in all of you don't we get the truth and justice that
03:16:57 don't we get the truth and justice that is desert yeah well mr. cotton you've obviously had a terrible experience and I'm sorry that we've had to ask you to come and talk about it in such detail
03:17:08 come and talk about it in such detail you've been very courageous dealing with all these questions and you should know that it is really helpful to us to hear about your experience what happened in your flawed your your flat and so on
03:17:21 your flawed your your flat and so on because it it's a piece of the jigsaw which we are trying to piece together so we're very grateful thank you very much for coming about it all right yeah right well when
03:17:37 about it all right yeah right well when you're ready yeah you go with the usher and show it off to you thank you very much
03:17:51 right thank you very much we'll break there and resume at ten past two please