Evidence from BSRs (9 November 2018 Pt 1 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:19 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing again we're going to hear evidence from someone who was in the tower on the night of the Father p.m.

00:00:30 tower on the night of the Father p.m. mr. chairman we are thank you and good morning we are now going to hear the evidence of mr. Marcio gomez can I please call him

00:01:00 really sincerely intrude

00:01:04 the evidence Marshall gave at the evidence I shall give shall be 15 truth shall be the truth the whole truth

00:01:13 thank you very much together sit down

00:01:21 yes mr. Gomez good morning can I ask you to give the enquiry your full name please have Marcio Gomez thank you and I want to begin by thanking you very much

00:01:33 to begin by thanking you very much indeed for coming here and assisting the inquiry with this investigations we're very grateful to you and know that giving evidence and recalling the events

00:01:44 giving evidence and recalling the events of the night may very well be distressing to you and so if you need a break at any time all you have to do is just say and we can take a break I should tell I'm planning to take a break

00:01:56 should tell I'm planning to take a break at about 10:50 10:00 to 11:00 this morning so this first session should run for about 50 minutes but if you need a break during that time we can do that I should also say that at times it may be

00:02:07 should also say that at times it may be that my questions don't make sense to you or remodeled or something like that if that happens please just ask me to repeat the question or put the question in a different way and I'll do that also

00:02:19 in a different way and I'll do that also I should say that sometimes when I'm you when you're giving evidence I may not be looking at you I may be looking at my notes or the screen following your evidence but I'm very much listening to what you're saying at the same time okay

00:02:31 what you're saying at the same time okay okay

00:02:31 okay now can I start by asking you to look at your first witness statement that you've given to the inquiry which is iws quadruple zero one zero seven eight and

00:02:44 quadruple zero one zero seven eight and there is the first page of it on the screen it should also be in your little bundle on the table in front of you if you want to look at it in in paper form many witnesses prefer to follow it on

00:02:55 many witnesses prefer to follow it on the monitor and that may be easier for you can I ask you please first to be shown the last page of that statement page 48

00:03:09 and there's a signature on that page over the date of the 12th of September 2018 is that your signature it is yeah and have you had an opportunity to read this with a statement recently I've gone through it

00:03:21 statement recently I've gone through it yes yes and can you confirm that its contents are true they are dubious thank you

00:03:26 you now there are two exhibits to it mg one which is I WS quintuple zero six two three which is a video taken by you inside the town and we'll be looking at

00:03:38 inside the town and we'll be looking at that later and secondly mg 2 which is I WS Quinn tuple 0 6 2 1 pages 2 to 12 which I think 11 photographs taken by

00:03:49 which I think 11 photographs taken by you of the various things the refurbishment inside the tower the replaced windows and the installation of pipes in the communal area okay I don't

00:04:00 pipes in the communal area okay I don't think they were taken by me directly there were photos that I had from other residents and neighbors right well we'll look at that in due course and you've

00:04:13 look at that in due course and you've also provided a supplemental witness statement I think which is dated the 5th of November 2018 which is iws quadruple zero one one eighty four and again

00:04:25 zero one one eighty four and again that's in the paper bundle in front of you at I think tab - can we look at the last page of that statement second page and it stated as you can see the 11th of

00:04:36 and it stated as you can see the 11th of November 2018 and there's a signature is that your signature it is yeah it's the fifth of November yes and have you had

00:04:47 fifth of November yes and have you had an opportunity to read that statement recently and no I haven't but I was only done last week it was yeah yeah say not

00:04:58 done last week it was yeah yeah say not even more recently than Hugh signed it and how the contents of that statement true they are and the reason you made it is it's clear is that you were shown I think a 9 line call that you hadn't

00:05:10 think a 9 line call that you hadn't addressed in your first witness statement correct right and as one exhibit mg1 which is I WS Drupal 0 1 1 8 4 which are various text

00:05:21 Drupal 0 1 1 8 4 which are various text messages sent and received with your workplace manager during the night of the fire

00:05:24 the fire correct him yes now having got through that formal park can I then start by asking you some background questions you lived at flat 183 on the 21st floor of

00:05:35 lived at flat 183 on the 21st floor of Glenville tower at the time of the fire that's practice and I think you'd live there for about 10 years prior to the fire just over 10 years ago stay for 10 years and together with you in the flat

00:05:46 years and together with you in the flat living there at the time of the fire was you your wife Andrea if I pronounced it correctly Andrea Andrea and your two daughters correct and your dog Lilly yes

00:05:58 daughters correct and your dog Lilly yes were you personally in good health at the time of the fire yes were you fit yes and was your family in good health at the time of the fire everybody was in

00:06:11 at the time of the fire everybody was in good health right my daughter my youngest daughter has is a somatic but she's in good health yes and I think your wife Andrea was was pregnant at the time - yep I in good health but Dean's

00:06:24 time - yep I in good health but Dean's at health yep now you rented your flat from the KC TMO that's right but at the time of the fire you I think we're looking to buy it weren't you we

00:06:35 we're looking to buy it weren't you we had to evaluate it twice by Kinston and Chelsea as early as January that year because we were looking to buy it yes

00:06:48 because we were looking to buy it yes right and at the time of the fire I think you had a number of concerns about the refurbishment of Grenville tower

00:06:59 the refurbishment of Grenville tower that you've set out in detail in your statement now I'm not going to take you through all of all of those because you could address them very comprehensively in your statement and they may well be considered as to phase two issues I hope

00:07:12 considered as to phase two issues I hope you don't mind if I don't look at those in detail but there are one or two questions I do want to pick up on those before we come to the events of the night of the fire itself first of all

00:07:23 night of the fire itself first of all the stairwell yes during the refurbishment do you remember whether your floor numbering changed no it was 18 still on

00:07:34 numbering changed no it was 18 still on the stairwell right so although the number of the floor itself changed is this right from 18 to 21 that's what my number written on the stairwell did not yeah it was to 18

00:07:45 stairwell did not yeah it was to 18 it was tire changed here or at least for the I hadn't noticed it the change for the last few months leading to thee that night well I was going to say did you

00:07:56 night well I was going to say did you actually notice that it had stayed the same I used to use the stairs I used to run up the stairs after football yeah so yes I hadn't changed there was some some

00:08:10 yes I hadn't changed there was some some floors had changed they were stenciled in but I assumed that was done by residents or somebody else because they weren't all the same and there was one

00:08:21 weren't all the same and there was one time where I went onto the eighteenth floor because I think the 18th floor was changed by a stencil when I went into the wrong floor whose dad changed right so so I got a

00:08:33 whose dad changed right so so I got a sense of this how often would you run up the stairs I'll play for what every Monday so it was happening at least once a week right for a while but then

00:08:44 a week right for a while but then leading up until that day I probably hadn't done it for about two months okay and just so I've understood your answer a minute ago so some of the floors had numbers which reflected the changed

00:08:57 numbers which reflected the changed floor numbering yes but but some didn't correct do you remember even roughly what the proportion of those which didn't reflect the floor numbering was of a very few maybe two had the right

00:09:10 of a very few maybe two had the right number but that was because somebody's sort of graffitied on it the number the right number so very so it wasn't done professionally right so very few had the

00:09:21 professionally right so very few had the right number most had the wrong number is that yeah say 90% had the wrong number

00:09:28 you say in paragraph 30 of your statement if you look at it on page at six but in the last sentence this issue

00:09:43 six but in the last sentence this issue had been raised with the TMA by myself and other residents but they had failed to take any action to rectify this do you remember when you raised that issue with the TMO not date specific but it

00:09:58 with the TMO not date specific but it was towards the end of the works cuz I expected him when they changed the floor numbers to 21 towards the end to then go into stairwell and change that and for a number of weeks after that they hadn't

00:10:09 number of weeks after that they hadn't changed it so don't have work to their attention saying you know you need to do that but that was it nothing official I hadn't raised a ticket with them or ever

00:10:23 hadn't raised a ticket with them or ever got a reference from them yeah okay um turning to the question of Windows on page 6 also of your statement you cover that from halfway down the page and you

00:10:35 that from halfway down the page and you say in paragraph 31 on that page as a result of the refurbishment the windows in our flat had been moved out from the original frame so that they were flush

00:10:47 original frame so that they were flush and in line with the new cladding that had been put on the outside of the tower now can I ask you against that background you've given us to look at a

00:10:58 background you've given us to look at a picture which is iws quadruple zero sorry Quinn two equals zero six two one at page six this is one of your exhibits

00:11:10 at page six this is one of your exhibits and it's taken from mg 2 which is a second exhibit your first statement oh yeah now

00:11:22 it is that a photograph taken by you yes and is it off a window in your flat it is yes we might be able to guess but do tell us which window is that that's in the same room the left-hand side and

00:11:34 the same room the left-hand side and soon

00:11:35 soon so if they left-hand side of the city is that looking east south south making sound right I see so you say left-hand

00:11:48 sound right I see so you say left-hand side the left hand most window in the sitting room yeah well the sitting room had four windows yes if you think of the two walls yes so that was the most left-hand side yes no when you say that it was

00:12:02 side yes no when you say that it was flush and in line with the new cladding that have been put on the outside of the tower just by reference to this window could you explain where it's at in the window gap if you like in comparison

00:12:13 window gap if you like in comparison with the last with with the old windows where you can see the old windows is there that frame in front of it so the one that hasn't you have the white background at the top that still has the

00:12:25 background at the top that still has the plastic on it yeah that's a new window the one in front gets on the frame itself on the wooden frame itself is the old window right which is still there

00:12:37 old window right which is still there right in that ajob occasional window in place correct so they put the they put the old the new windows in place by

00:12:48 the old the new windows in place by scaffolding on the outside the new the old windows still in place and then as part of the works they would then arrange 3-4 days or maybe 2 days to come in remove the internal window the

00:13:00 in remove the internal window the original window and then finish off the new window right so just so I understand this is this photograph taken as it were partway through that work yeah this they

00:13:12 partway through that work yeah this they hadn't really started apart from putting the window on the outside so you got the outside window and then they dismantled the inside yeah later on so yeah so for a number of weeks we had two windows yes rice cake yes yes I was going to say

00:13:25 rice cake yes yes I was going to say because they so this is part this is part of the way through the work yes correct

00:13:29 correct yeah

00:13:31 yeah now referring to this photograph and it may be difficult because it is any part of the way through the work do you remember where the workmen cut foam that you described in your statement to fit

00:13:42 you described in your statement to fit into the gaps that yeah so they left the wooden frame in situ but between where they've taken the metal frame out and

00:13:53 they've taken the metal frame out and the new window yes there's a gap all around and that's where they cut the the foam to fit into that right are you able to identify more precisely where in the

00:14:06 to identify more precisely where in the frame they were doing that you can get up and point if you like yeah you may be able to use a red dot but it was just down here right witnesses pointing to the windowsill jot that where these

00:14:18 the windowsill jot that where these sills the window frame yes at this bit is wood and then behind it would have been the outside of the wall but they had to fill it yes weave yes thank you

00:14:32 had to fill it yes weave yes thank you no can I ask you to be showing paragraph 33 of your statement and take that picture I think off its the screen and look at para 33 you say in the third

00:14:45 look at para 33 you say in the third line these gaps were filled with mastic and some sort of a foam type substance and yeah then you go on to say the workmen were cutting the foam to try to fit it into the gaps around the window

00:14:57 fit it into the gaps around the window says to fill them the foam seems to have a fireproof coating which they were cutting through to shape the foam to fit gaps what made you think that the coating was fireproof where was my

00:15:09 coating was fireproof where was my assumption they had a silver covering over it and normally materials I have that silver covering an omni for fire proofing right it's my understanding

00:15:20 proofing right it's my understanding okay and at paragraph 34 in your statement they were the paid on page seven you you say there were a lot of gaps as they were using hard flavors impossible to mould it perfectly into

00:15:31 impossible to mould it perfectly into the gaps which had been created by the fitting of the new windows the gaps under the window ledges were huge but this was when the new windows were first put in the foam attempted to fill the gaps then you go on the workmen then

00:15:43 gaps then you go on the workmen then placed the plastic PVC edging around the window ledge to cover the phone which concealed the gaps which the foam had not completely filled now just breaking that down a little bit first of all you you say you go on to

00:15:58 first of all you you say you go on to say you were working from home at regular times and you could therefore see the gaps yes how often did you well how much did you see the work when actually working on the windows quite a

00:16:09 actually working on the windows quite a lot and I think I saw that fruited yen's right I generally work from home I had that time I worked from home two days a week which was a Tuesdays and Fridays

00:16:21 week which was a Tuesdays and Fridays but for that piece of work andraia was working so I just worked from home right and while they were findell all the windows we're in the flat were you working so that previous

00:16:34 flat were you working so that previous picture to derive of it so in a sane room right so you've got a direct view on the work but that the workman with us yes sorry very well they were on the outside knew or on the inside no they were in the inside they were on the inside of your flat yes right so you're

00:16:47 inside of your flat yes right so you're keeping a close eye on them we not like that but I had to work for I saw what they were doing yes I had to give him access to certain things that's why I had to stay at home and work from home

00:16:58 had to stay at home and work from home no understand now you say that the gaps under the window ledges were huge in the third line there can you just give us a sense of how big they were well from

00:17:12 sense of how big they were well from where the frame of the old windows starts until to the new so maybe

00:17:23 the witness 10 inches 10 inches overnight ok 8 inches what and where were those gaps you said under the window ledges is that the new outer ledges or the or the old ledge the new

00:17:36 ledges or the or the old ledge the new the new the new park because they used the the left of the wooden frame Institute yeah but I've seen the out of bits the new bit they had to fill it

00:17:47 bits the new bit they had to fill it with something right that's why they were filling it with no in I've read this to you just a minute ago but just came back to it just below halfway through paragraph 34 you say that they covered the gaps with PVC you say which

00:18:01 covered the gaps with PVC you say which concealed the gaps which the foam had not completely filled when the workmen put the foam in were there remaining gaps yeah how big with the remaining

00:18:12 gaps yeah how big with the remaining gaps that it had their biggest it's it's probably that inch 1/2 inch inch inch at the biggest points because of its it's a

00:18:23 the biggest points because of its it's a it was a big square phone that you you you know solid phone so it wasn't like a liquid phone where you can put it in and it will get into every gap so when they

00:18:34 it will get into every gap so when they were cutting it so let's say they cut a rectangle but then there was a bit here that cut a triangle put it in there and then they needed another square bit that

00:18:46 then they needed another square bit that car not a square bit and put it in there so obviously once they've filled those bits the bigger bits in between the others they wouldn't they wouldn't join and conceal their big gaps and where in

00:19:01 and conceal their big gaps and where in terms of around the window the Squeakquel a square window frame walled rectangular window frame where were the largest of those gaps you're of course at the bond it at the bottom yep and if

00:19:15 at the bond it at the bottom yep and if you lent out of the window assuming there were no workmen in your way where would you see these gaps would you look down yeah the bomb at the bottom yes so

00:19:26 down yeah the bomb at the bottom yes so on just behind the wooden frame that the bomb the ledger now you then go

00:19:38 that the bomb the ledger now you then go on in paragraph 34 but to say in the last sentence after they covered the window ledge with PVC there were no visible gaps only small cracks which

00:19:49 visible gaps only small cracks which were letting through drafts of air from outside the building

00:19:53 first of all were the small cracks visible at all to you once if lady yes yes they were where were those small cracks the underneath underneath the ledge underneath the ledge on the inside

00:20:06 ledge underneath the ledge on the inside or the outside on the inside on the inside which windows in your flat do you remember suffered from that feature there's a few but the the main ones were

00:20:17 there's a few but the the main ones were the same room once where we we felt the breeze and especially the kitchen because we we added all of the girls and never to go to the windows because of sleep we were scared that they would

00:20:28 sleep we were scared that they would open it hence why the old windows had the security feature on which she can only open it that much yeah and with the

00:20:39 only open it that much yeah and with the new windows of the same Bowl you can't go to the windows you can't open them and so on so we only really opened the one in the kitchen yes able and that's where we felt the

00:20:50 yes able and that's where we felt the the breeze and the kitchen would be on the west side of the building yes overlooking West Side that's Heathrow and which windows let in the

00:21:02 Heathrow and which windows let in the most breeze um I'll say the west side windows lenin we felt a lot the breeze from from that side and when you say that you felt a lot of the breeze how strong was the air coming in you can

00:21:15 strong was the air coming in you can walk past it and you can feel the air really yeah and if you put your hands close to the so let say the edge was like this you put your hand there you can feel the breeze coming fit now your

00:21:26 can feel the breeze coming fit now your kitchens on the west side as you said before the living room faces south because you're on the southwest corner do did you south and west south india south as in that corner yes yeah did you feel any breeze coming

00:21:38 yes yeah did you feel any breeze coming in on the southerly through the southerly windows which would be the living yeah you can but because we had furniture in front of those windows you can get close enough for it but if you put your hand there

00:21:49 put your hand there you can feel it mmm which is how I knew it was coming through during the winter that follows the summer of 2016 when the

00:22:01 that follows the summer of 2016 when the refurbishment finished did did the fact that you had breeze coming through your flat from those windows have any effect on how you heated the flat no I got him

00:22:13 on how you heated the flat no I got him to fix it right no did they do to fix it

00:22:19 his name was Sunday I went downstairs and spoke to to Linda Prentiss and I said this this brief coming in initially I didn't really notice it because it was summer and you didn't really notice it

00:22:33 summer and you didn't really notice it he's only when it got a little bit cold up and windy and also being on 21st floor is generally quite windy up there that I started feeling the breeze so I went down and spoke to Linda and said

00:22:45 went down and spoke to Linda and said there's breeze coming up and she said yeah the contractor whose name was Sunday which is why I have a firm remember yeah and he came with will he

00:22:59 remember yeah and he came with will he call it sort of Mastiff come and just see what all around the just just pushing my question a little bit more

00:23:11 pushing my question a little bit more with a bit more precision a paragraph 35 you say as it got colder we started to feel the breeze in the flat it felt as if one of the windows and the flat was open yeah

00:23:21 open yeah before it was fixed in the way you've described did the fact that you had breeze coming in during that colder weather affect the way in which you heated the flat oh yeah because it the

00:23:33 heated the flat oh yeah because it the cook the flat was cold so we had to tend to heating on a lot more so yeah it was it was much colder and then he paragraph 36 you describe how sunday filled the

00:23:44 36 you describe how sunday filled the gaps and cracks around the edges of the windows with mastic filler you say in the end of that paragraph after it was much better after this yes they did he eliminate the breezes completely or whether they're still breezes coming

00:23:55 whether they're still breezes coming through and not I think he's it I went round the windows with him so I made sure he got every hope basically okay and did he apply the mastic gun inside the flat or did he lean out and

00:24:08 inside the flat or did he lean out and sow it into the cleric it was in sight okay right okay so as far as you know Sunday never did any any filling work on the outside of the outside not the

00:24:20 the outside of the outside not the scaffolding wasn't there anymore so and this is Spider Man but no he definitely didn't do it some people have talent

00:24:35 what I am picturing as the sort of white plastic you sort of filler that that's exactly it yeah so you think they call it paint his mate or something like that

00:24:48 it paint his mate or something like that so you don't put her and then you wash your finger or wipe or something to make it yeah that's exactly what you used but the gate is just to be I'm absolutely

00:24:59 the gate is just to be I'm absolutely clear he worked inside but he didn't in Saffold the gaps that you saw had been left in the exterior cladding with rigid foam no that's already been covered by

00:25:10 foam no that's already been covered by the PVC top so that was never filled enough right okay this is once the windows were completely finished now going to fill around it so

00:25:23 finished now going to fill around it so that all all the only barrier between external air and your flat is this right is that is the mastic seal that Sunday pudding correct I going to show you a photograph taken

00:25:36 I going to show you a photograph taken by the inquiries experts of the interior of the tower after the fire I just say that because people might find that

00:25:48 that because people might find that distressing well then that doesn't share any fire in it and I'm doing that because I want to ask you some questions about the air ventilation system you say in your statement in its paragraph 68 on

00:25:59 in your statement in its paragraph 68 on page 14 that you notice that an air ventilation system as being installed as part of the refurbishment

00:26:06 we should just go to that first before we look at the photographs no yeah you say and you say in the fifth line down

00:26:23 say and you say in the fifth line down from the top of that paragraph the vents were in two places on opposite walls in the hallway and landing so if I can ask you then to be shamed BL a quadruple zero two five one three and two five one four well put those two up on the screen

00:26:36 four well put those two up on the screen at the same time as the game is they're taking on the sixth floors and not your floor can you identify for us in those photographs the vents you're talking about yes this to the top and two at the

00:26:48 about yes this to the top and two at the bottom two at the top two at the bottom and to the topper on the north wall is that right yes that's the opposite side to me yeah and the opposite of your wall is whether on the bottom the south side correct yeah

00:26:59 correct yeah now let's go back to your statement you save six lines down from the top of paper a 68 on page 14 the when the

00:27:10 paper a 68 on page 14 the when the ventilation system went off by that I mean when the fence sounded like they were working it was like a loud Hoover sound a high-pitched sound it sounded

00:27:21 sound a high-pitched sound it sounded like there was wind going around the hallway the noise could keep a light sleeper awake at night if the ventilation system was going off ie working now just pausing there how often do you recall the ventilation system

00:27:34 do you recall the ventilation system going off before the fire quite regular it just kept going off randomly at different times sometimes over the weekend

00:27:44 weekend and I remember one one weekend the news it was Saturday Sunday it continues going off and I phoned TMO and said you

00:27:55 going off and I phoned TMO and said you know that's happening unless they can send an engineer and told him Monday so we just had to live with it and did they send an engineer it stopped so I assumed they did did you ever get any

00:28:08 they did did you ever get any explanation from the TMO or an engineer why it was going off no okay was there anything you noticed that was happening elsewhere in the building which might trigger it no did you ever

00:28:23 which might trigger it no did you ever notice while it was going off whether it was having any effect noise or air movement in the main ground floor lobby of the building no no in the

00:28:34 lobby of the building no no in the ground floor a lot of the times when I noticed he was going off I was working from home right and and that's why I noticed it and there was it was loud enough to for my colleagues when I was

00:28:47 enough to for my colleagues when I was in a conference call to to ask if I had all the windows open and Wow why was there so much wind in my flat inside the flat yeah and I just have to put myself

00:28:58 flat yeah and I just have to put myself on mute so that they can have a conversation so that's it would you describe it as a lot like a loud Hoover it was allowed to pretty loud Hoover yeah it smacks yeah did it ever operate

00:29:12 yeah it smacks yeah did it ever operate at a lower and lower pitch or softer sound I don't remember it cooperating every time it or parade or was going off it was loud well it did go off did you notice

00:29:24 well it did go off did you notice whether it had any effect on the operation of the lifts no I didn't notice

00:29:30 notice did you notice whether it had any effect on your hot water it had no effect on my hot water that you noticed although I noticed it wet you say and I've just

00:29:42 noticed it wet you say and I've just shown you this that when they did go off it you say it sounded like there was wind going around the hallway yep was that unlike an extra sound a sound of moving air or was it the sound of the

00:29:53 moving air or was it the sound of the machinery

00:29:54 machinery I don't think of sounded machinery was just sound of movement air movement did you notice any air movement when it was going off you can you can feel the breeze

00:30:04 breeze yeah right where was in the hallway in the hallway yeah we're in the hallway would you feel the breeze coming from when the ventilation system was going off from the vent from the vent yeah did

00:30:16 off from the vent from the vent yeah did you ever put your hand up to the vent and feel it I don't remember doing it I remember the flat I think they had flaps and I remember some of the flats were open

00:30:25 open right right when the ventilation system was going off in the way you described and when you were in the lobby could you describe for us which flaps were open

00:30:36 describe for us which flaps were open and which were closed or whether they were both open I remember seeing both sides for open yeah do you remember when the ventilation Zimmer system was going off and you were in the lobby which direction the air was moving in I

00:30:49 direction the air was moving in I continue I can't remember did you notice whether and you and this is did you ever let me try this way did you ever try to open the stairwell door

00:31:01 you ever try to open the stairwell door from either direction when the ventilation system was going off but now normally I was getting to lift Italy room go some way but being a man who used the stairs

00:31:12 used the stairs I need line up only going up I'm just trying to put two one and one together and but did you ever use the stairs during a ventilation activation period and notice whether the stairwell door

00:31:24 and notice whether the stairwell door was more difficult to open and I didn't know sorry okay

00:31:39 did you ever discuss this ventilation system going off with any other resident of the building it was mentioned in the compact group a number of times and with

00:31:51 compact group a number of times and with other residents right so do you know which floors other residents could hear it on when it was going off in this way it was various floors I believe I don't know a specific floors but um I know a

00:32:03 know a specific floors but um I know a lot of the residents were complaining about it going off now in paragraph 69 you say I think the ventilation system

00:32:18 you say I think the ventilation system never really worked properly as after it was installed we could hear the suction sound from inside our flat and you've covered by what you mean by that did

00:32:29 covered by what you mean by that did anybody ever explain to you what this system was designed to do no nobody ever explained that but to be fair I never really asked as well I just assumed it

00:32:41 really asked as well I just assumed it was a ventilation system that's that's very fact and

00:32:50 you say at the back at the bottom of page 68 and we're going to come to this in due course you say I could not hear the ventilation system working when I open the door of my flat onto the

00:33:01 open the door of my flat onto the landing at just after 2:00 a.m. this is the night of the fire and when later that when I later left the flat with my family at around 2:30 3:25 a.m. we'll

00:33:13 family at around 2:30 3:25 a.m. we'll come to it into your course but is that a clear recollection of yours that you despite going through many other things at the time did not hear the ventilation system operating I don't remember

00:33:25 system operating I don't remember operating as loud as it is I would have remembered I'm sure and I've got a video of me open the door and you can't hear

00:33:36 of me open the door and you can't hear it in D as well and you would have heard it if indeed my question was really and that's all charged a different way at the time of your opening the door or escape from the flat on the night of the

00:33:48 escape from the flat on the night of the fire did it strike you at the time of the ventilation system was not operating yeah I knew it wasn't operating right yes thank you now you also deal with the question of

00:34:01 now you also deal with the question of door closes at paragraph 60 of your state if you could go please to page 12 you you described in power of fifty nine

00:34:13 you you described in power of fifty nine as a background but you weren't happy with the automatic door closing mechanism on the front door as the door would slam shut and you you've explained

00:34:24 would slam shut and you you've explained that and you say in 60 I reported my concerns regarding the new front door to the TMO and asked them to remove the automatic closing mechanism the TMO refused to remove it and then you tell

00:34:35 refused to remove it and then you tell the story in paragraph 60 about how it came to be removed and we have that and in the end you removed it I did say at

00:34:47 in the end you removed it I did say at the end of para 60 how did you do that screwdriver right it's just bolted in both with screws right was the mechanism a chain mechanism that went into the

00:34:58 a chain mechanism that went into the inside of the leaf of door or was it an external mechanism no went into the frame of the door right in the door itself so it was bolted in right and into the frame right and you

00:35:12 right and into the frame right and you could you could remove it quite easily could you it's not easy to remove and it swings back but I've got some DIY experience so I knew how to stop it from springing back and hurting me when when

00:35:24 springing back and hurting me when when I removed it okay do you know whether others in the tower did the same thing as you with their door closes I believe they did yes but do you know you'd know

00:35:36 they did yes but do you know you'd know how to % without naming names do you have a specific do you have specific recollection of specific flats where people did that I know some flats weren't working but I don't know the reason behind it now you tell us and

00:35:48 reason behind it now you tell us and there's no need to go to it but I'll just give the reference its paragraph 79 B of your statement on page 17 that you have a visit from the NFB about three months before the fire

00:35:59 months before the fire do you remember whether during that visit the LF be spotted the fact that your front door did not have an automatic closer but they didn't say anything if they did spire didn't say nothing right now I want to turn to in

00:36:14 nothing right now I want to turn to in the night of the fire itself mr. Gomez if I can and to start with the late on in the night of the 13th of June who was at home with you to that night um Andrea

00:36:26 at home with you to that night um Andrea and my family doors right now picking it up at paragraph 76 of your statement on page 16 you say there at approximately

00:36:41 page 16 you say there at approximately 1:30 a.m. on Wednesday the 14th of June 2017 Beth Andrea and I were awoken by a banging on our front door and the noise of commotion outside of the tower

00:36:57 and the noise of the commotion outside of the tower what sort of noise was that just loud noise louder than their normal you can

00:37:13 noise louder than their normal you can really hear because we're on a 21st floor but you can hear sounds an obvious sound was traveling up and you can hear the commotion and just I think it's

00:37:25 the commotion and just I think it's necessary to take time going to a plan but just tell us which was your bedroom on in the flat as your direction did it face did a face south south and was it the nearest to the front door yes it's

00:37:36 the nearest to the front door yes it's the one directly in front of the final so you're you overlooked pretty pretty clearly the front lobby Corrections yep when you woke up you say you went to

00:37:50 when you woke up you say you went to answer the door at that stage did you notice any signs of smoke in your flat not my flat no did you look out of the window about sledding

00:38:00 sledding did you see anywhere any signs of fire at that stage no and you just go on to say that in the same paragraph that Helen Helen and her daughter Helen gave

00:38:12 Helen Helen and her daughter Helen gave romesco and her daughter were at the door with their dog and she was you say she was clearly very upset this is the end of the paragraph she was breathing heavily talking quickly and looked very

00:38:23 heavily talking quickly and looked very worried she told us that there was a fire in one of the flats in the tower you see you say that yep

00:38:33 did she tell you which flat and not I recall no so she didn't tell you that her kitchen was on fire and not to me now right now looking ahead to paragraph

00:38:47 now right now looking ahead to paragraph 77 next on page 16 of your statement you you say whilst we were at the front door speaking with Helen I could hear my next-door neighbor Abdullah from flat 182 talking with people who then went

00:39:01 182 talking with people who then went into his flat

00:39:04 yeah who's that Abdullah el Wahhabi yes could you see

00:39:15 Abdullah el Wahhabi yes could you see him yourself that knocking here right and his front door is to your left is to deal right

00:39:27 door is to your left is to deal right sorry as you look out of yours yes to my right to your right as you look out of yours and to the left as you're looking at it did you see anybody else he was talking to no I'd hadn't stepped out and

00:39:41 talking to no I'd hadn't stepped out and Ray was in front of me and Ray out from the door and then Helen was there with her and I was behind in in my flat in a corridor still could you see I can here

00:39:52 corridor still could you see I can here to come up their discussions going on but I couldn't see I hadn't stepped out to see could you see the people he was talking to no did you see anybody else

00:40:04 talking to no did you see anybody else at that stage not only people I saw was Helen and lujah because they were right in front of my door okay and I think at

00:40:16 in front of my door okay and I think at this stage I think I will show you that the layout of the flat can I ask you please to be showing em et triple zero one two five nine three now this is a

00:40:27 one two five nine three now this is a cross section of the building from the fourth floor up and you can see that the flats are sequentially numbered with the flat one starting in the middle of the East elevation working around in the clockwise direction to flat six on the

00:40:38 clockwise direction to flat six on the northeast side and you are on the southeast corner your flat was on the southeast corner

00:40:46 sorry site southwest corner flat three and that if you blow that up

00:40:56 you can see that your front Wilhelm quite got it perhaps you can as well stay with the unblown up version for the moment yeah your front door is there and

00:41:13 moment yeah your front door is there and flat 182 as it would be would be to your right as you look out yes

00:41:21 where were you standing when Helen when the front door was open to Helen so if you're looking at that where you see you

00:41:34 you're looking at that where you see you haven't at the front door but let's pretend that line yeah it's just good to stand up with you let's pretend that's the front door

00:41:45 let's pretend that's the front door cause it opened that way I was standing here inside you're standing and Ray was there Helens was here in luleå was it I see okay and the discussion that you

00:41:58 see okay and the discussion that you heard Abdullah l Wahhabi having was was it just right around the right-hand corner and out of eyeshot correct yeah

00:42:10 corner and out of eyeshot correct yeah it was from my understanding my hearing it was right in front of his door yeah and your bedroom is the one to say well

00:42:22 and your bedroom is the one to say well we've got it is the one it's the easternmost on the South flank correct right so pretty much opposite the front door once you get past the hall it's right up said yeah did the entrance

00:42:34 it's right up said yeah did the entrance of all my bedrooms always right opposite this okay no no it's difficult how many people do you think at the time abdullah was talking to I would imagine about

00:42:45 was talking to I would imagine about three or four different people but I can't be saying because I didn't see myself I just said the voices voices were they were they male voices female

00:42:57 were they were they male voices female voices or a mixture there's a mixture okay could you hear what they were saying not a hundred percent not okay now a paragraph 77 you say five lines

00:43:13 now a paragraph 77 you say five lines down Helen informed us that she and her daughter had tried to get downstairs and was sent back up by a firefighter is that what Helen said while you were standing at the front door yes

00:43:25 standing at the front door yes do you remember that clearly yes um did she tell you why she'd been sent back up

00:43:37 she tell you why she'd been sent back up by a firefighter no and it wasn't just so it was the whole group that she was with listen up did she did you see the

00:43:48 with listen up did she did you see the any other members of the group well my assumption was that the ones going in to 182 was part of that group I see because they all came up together do

00:44:02 see because they all came up together do you know roughly how many were in that group did you get a sense of how many were in that group well I heard about three or four by a kid be more okay now from where you're standing and the first

00:44:13 from where you're standing and the first we need to get back to the the map at one two five nine three if we can the diagram that one two five nine three and from where you're standing at your front door you can well let me ask you do you

00:44:27 door you can well let me ask you do you have a good view of the stairwell door which would be looking to your right diagonally if I stepped out yes if you

00:44:38 diagonally if I stepped out yes if you step down stange right there so I would have a good view to it yes but at that moment no because I was behind behind Andria

00:44:54 so you couldn't see whether the stairwell door was open or closed no no if I had opened the door I could cuz I just need to open do and I can see it diagonally across me but because Andre

00:45:06 diagonally across me but because Andre open and I was behind her I couldn't see it now from where you're standing I I'm not sure whether you can get a good view

00:45:17 not sure whether you can get a good view of the front door flat six but no you can't right now even if I'm standing by the door I know you can't see it

00:45:30 now can I ask you please than to go forward to page 19 at paragraph 82 you

00:45:41 forward to page 19 at paragraph 82 you say when Helen her daughter and Simba came into our flat through our front door I could see smoke on our landing it was black smoke and it was quite close to the ceiling at that point and you

00:45:52 to the ceiling at that point and you could see through it this was around 125 to 130 a.m. now first of all did you get an opportunity to smell the smoke no I didn't I can't

00:46:03 to smell the smoke no I didn't I can't smell anything or at least I don't know it's smelling anything at that moment in time and this is when they come in through your front door as you say did you have to open the front door in full

00:46:14 you have to open the front door in full don't turn it and dry open the door for yes you were and dry up and the front door before they came into your flat and you look and you see what's on the landing did you could you see at that time where the smoke was coming from no

00:46:27 time where the smoke was coming from no I had no idea because at that time when we opened the door Helen hadn't come in yet she was just standing on the frame of the door pretty

00:46:39 standing on the frame of the door pretty much with Vern and drea so we just had a brief conversation good we just woken up so I was still a little bit you say it was quite close to the ceiling how far below the ceiling was the smoke layer at

00:46:51 below the ceiling was the smoke layer at that point it was only a little bit I noticed it because of the light right outside my front door there's the

00:47:02 outside my front door there's the communal lights yes someone noticed because it's awful it sparkled which caught my attention and that's when I

00:47:14 caught my attention and that's when I looked up and saw that that smoke

00:47:19 first of all in the answer before last do you say a little bit and you put your finger and thumb the distance apart just for the transcript how far how thick was this meg layer in terms of centimeters

00:47:31 this meg layer in terms of centimeters well two inches to it or not okay and then you say and then you say in the last answer that the smooth did you say

00:47:46 last answer that the smooth did you say it's sparkled its what caught my attention I don't know if it's because of the lights but because the light is right there something just sparkled and

00:47:58 right there something just sparkled and it just caught my attention that's when I looked up when you said when you've looked up and you examined the smoke I saw the smoke could could you see this

00:48:09 saw the smoke could could you see this sparkling phenomenon no I'm not really you just look like doll smoke smoke you know I didn't really examine it to be honest our judgment you know Helen just finished telling me that there was a

00:48:21 finished telling me that there was a fire somewhere in a building and that's what they smoked right yeah I didn't the door didn't remain open for too long after that too far as

00:48:34 open for too long after that too far as you could see were all the lobby lights on and working at that point yes I can see clearly and you say in the same paragraph at three lines down this was

00:48:45 paragraph at three lines down this was about 125 to 130 a.m. how do you recall but that was the time I remember looking at my phone on the side because it was

00:48:56 at my phone on the side because it was probably the first thing I did when I heard the banging so my phone always charges on Mike let's I take it and I remember looking it and just recall being around that time yes mm-hmm

00:49:10 being around that time yes mm-hmm and you didn't look again at the scene say this was no I was

00:49:17 I sleep in boxes and you know so I'm not accustomed to opening the door in that way so Andre went to open the door and I was getting changed so I didn't look again until much later right mr. gomez I

00:49:29 again until much later right mr. gomez I get to ask the Chairman now to take a break if I may if that's not meaning to you well we have been running 50 minutes that might be a good point to have a short wait before we do break can I just

00:49:42 short wait before we do break can I just say this I understand that there's going to be a short remembrance service in the courtyard waterhouse square downstairs at 11 o'clock I don't know how long it's going to last anyone who wishes to

00:49:54 going to last anyone who wishes to attend will be very welcome I think in view of that we'll take a slightly longer break and resume at 10 past 11:00 right now mr. Gomez we're gonna have a break slightly longer than usual but

00:50:06 break slightly longer than usual but never mind please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and we'll come back at 10 past 11:00 okay you can go with you sure yes

00:50:17 11:00 okay you can go with you sure yes that's it

00:50:29 right 10 + 11 please

01:06:48 you

01:09:04 that's what you are supposed to get us to come back please thank you

01:09:25 all right skimmers yeah how did you continue yes yes thank you thank you yes together thank you for coming back to us before I move on can I just get back to

01:09:36 before I move on can I just get back to something I want relates to what we were talking about before when you open or used to open your front door was there a light in the lobby near your front door

01:09:48 light in the lobby near your front door all over it right in front right in front where was it on the ceiling or on the walls senior on the ceiling how close to the entrance to the door was the light it was about halfway between

01:10:02 the light it was about halfway between my front door and the riser cupboard and in a scene right by a bit to the to the right bit to the right yeah okay so

01:10:13 right bit to the right yeah okay so enough they would we had the daughter had the fan fan light yes I've had like yes

01:10:23 yes I guess which one also yes that's right which would let the light fruit so it was a bitter right but not directly above okay so on a normal night could

01:10:37 above okay so on a normal night could you clearly see light through your I've called it a fan lighter for the fan shaped glass in the window in the door Yakutia and when you opened the door would the light in the ceiling in the

01:10:49 would the light in the ceiling in the lobby outside your door throw light on to your yes threshold yes it would yeah that was the only that was the only light in the scene in that would give light to that corner so yeah okay and

01:11:01 light to that corner so yeah okay and when Helen arrived and knocked on your door you opened the door and Ray opened the door as you've said you could see her clearly illuminated could you yeah yeah everything was normal

01:11:13 yeah everything was normal aside from that a bit of smoke enough she doubts or around alight yeah now moving on can I just ask you some

01:11:24 moving on can I just ask you some questions about fire safety advice you say in your statement and you don't need to go to it we've touched on it earlier that you were given a visit paid a visit but at home by the lfb you checked your

01:11:36 but at home by the lfb you checked your fire alarms do you remember when that was not specifically okay it's some months three months we'll say before the fire I think is what you say yeah I did have it pointed in a canter but did they give

01:11:48 pointed in a canter but did they give you any other first safety advice at the time such as I mean we discussed a couple things when they were tested up here affirm when they came around to

01:12:00 here affirm when they came around to test the smoke alarms yes so we did discuss with who I believe was a senior person or at least the firemen died was in charge around the stay-put policy

01:12:17 in charge around the stay-put policy I was very brief and it was just a he asked do I know the procedure and I said yeah I'm aware it's to stay put and he said yes that's right and anyway don't

01:12:28 said yes that's right and anyway don't say that you you know each apartment is designed to contain the fire if there was one so you'd have plenty of time and that was it really it looks from your statement and I say

01:12:41 it looks from your statement and I say don't go to it perhaps we should go to it it's page 17 four lines or five lines up from the bottom of that page you say

01:12:54 up from the bottom of that page you say he asked me do you know what the procedure is no this is sorry this is the bottom of the page for four or five lines up from the bottom of the page in

01:13:05 lines up from the bottom of the page in B he asked me do you know what the procedure is in the case of a fire I replied I'm aware that there is this type of policy and that means you stand your flat if the fire is elsewhere in the building unless it is in my flat and

01:13:17 the building unless it is in my flat and then I would get out who initiated that conversation who started it was it did you ask him or did he ask you if you knew now he asked me right and your

01:13:28 knew now he asked me right and your knowledge that you have described there that you put in your answer to him what was the source of that at what it was the I remember talking to Janice won't

01:13:42 the I remember talking to Janice won't be first

01:13:42 be first Janice Jones started she was TMO officer that they are with our accommodation and when we first moved in or at least when

01:13:55 when we first moved in or at least when I signed the contract we had a conversation around the state put policy and you've covered that in detail in your statement of paragraph 79 a about that um can I just ask you about signs

01:14:08 that um can I just ask you about signs in the building yeah did any of your information that you had about stay put which you repeated back to the firefighter come from any signs that you'd seen in the building and that

01:14:20 that you'd seen in the building and that would have influenced it as well yeah because I remember reading the signs that was ended by the elevators right just to be clear can the witness please

01:14:31 just to be clear can the witness please be shown inq quint six zeros sex tuple 0 93 is that the

01:14:42 six zeros sex tuple 0 93 is that the sign you're referring to mr. Gomez yes right

01:14:44 right and clearly am i right in thinking you studied it carefully and understood it very clearly well I think so yes I mean I read it a number of times

01:14:56 I mean I read it a number of times because it was if I remember correctly it was on the ground floor in between the lifts and there's such a big tower there's a lot of times where you have to wait for a few minutes and I'm type of

01:15:08 wait for a few minutes and I'm type of person that just reads every sign to pass the time so yeah I was quite familiar with that and it was on your floor as well was it it was I think tomorrow the right to the lift on my

01:15:19 tomorrow the right to the lift on my floor to the right of ellipse as you look at the lifts so as I'm looking I think it was on the right hand side said towards the north facing towards the north as you look at the lifts towards the north yes yes

01:15:31 the north yes yes no facing north the building yet now can I ask you to be shown another sign I WS quadruped and no it's fine series I think 5-0 is 500 I WS five zeros

01:15:47 think 5-0 is 500 I WS five zeros five hundred

01:15:58 yes now do you remember ever seeing a sign like this in a tour around Granville tower I don't remember but I

01:16:09 Granville tower I don't remember but I think that was when we first moved he was at the back of the ground-floor I think right but I can tell you a hundred percent okay do you remember

01:16:22 whether that's I never disappeared I don't remember seeing it okay um soon after we moved in so you did this bit it did disappear when you say soon

01:16:35 bit it did disappear when you say soon after you moved in it disappeared as I write I think I remember seeing it then the back on the ground floor so as you go through the main doors obviously pre the work it was in the store right post area and in the back if

01:16:48 store right post area and in the back if I remember correctly near the lifts the ground floor lifts but it didn't stay too long or at least I don't remember reading it that that often okay

01:17:00 reading it that that often okay and when did you first notice the new signs that the green and red signs we saw a moment ago I think it was just after the the refurb or just before they

01:17:12 after the the refurb or just before they finished right so about 2016 yeah I think so

01:17:18 think so okay can I ask you now to be shown it's something else which is a arty quadruple zero two six zero six now this is a

01:17:31 zero two six zero six now this is a newsletter published by TMO and right and dated July 2013 first of all mr. gamer do you remember receiving

01:17:42 gamer do you remember receiving newsletter such as this yeah we had numerous news death of my right yep do you remember seeing this one in particular July 2014 what I want is to

01:17:53 particular July 2014 what I want is to refresh your recollection what's been happening and then you've told about the demolition of the ramp yeah I remember those photos you remember the photo yeah right can I ask you to turn to the next

01:18:05 right can I ask you to turn to the next page and you can see in the last item on the bottom emergency fire Arrangements if we could have those blown up please a

01:18:16 if we could have those blown up please a long-standing statement policy stays in force until you are told otherwise this means that unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat you should stay inside your flat this is because Grenfell was

01:18:29 flat this is because Grenfell was designed according to rigorous safety fire safety standards also the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive do you remember reading that yesterday

01:18:42 do you remember reading that yesterday what impression did that information have on you at the time that was safe to say nefler when Helen arrived and came

01:18:55 say nefler when Helen arrived and came into your flat with her daughter and her dog did you discuss fire safety advice stay put yes if you like with them you did yes and what about with Andrea did

01:19:08 did yes and what about with Andrea did you discuss it with him he was both they were together I tried to reassure them that if stay put policy and everything will be ok and we went into the everything's gonna

01:19:21 and we went into the everything's gonna be okay in terms of it's not gonna spread from the flat just wait until the firefighters deal with it and then you know we just get told us dealt with

01:19:35 that after Helen came in and you and they were all that you were all in a flat together did you then look out of the windows of your flat at any permit

01:19:46 the windows of your flat at any permit through any window and not straight away nice right away what point after Helen arrived did you first look out of your windows I would say maybe 15 20 minutes

01:20:01 windows I would say maybe 15 20 minutes after okay because I was so when they came in the first thing I said to Lully office she used to sleep my arse and and

01:20:12 office she used to sleep my arse and and Helen's daughter she used to sleep up ours and the girls used to sleep at hers so she knew with where their bedroom was so I said to her because they were sleeping at that time so I said to her

01:20:24 sleeping at that time so I said to her you know going through the girls room and wait wait wait them up and then Helen and Andrea and myself went towards the the kitchen area of this living room area just have a conversation around you

01:20:37 area just have a conversation around you know what we actually seen so amongst all of that going on and then coming back making sure that girls were awake and I just asked them to get get ready

01:20:48 and I just asked them to get get ready to make sure they were ready you know tracksuit bottoms or whatever it was so it was about 15-20 minutes after the eyes went through the window okay and then picking it up if I can a paragraph 85 of your statement on page 19 you say

01:21:02 85 of your statement on page 19 you say and we could take the newsletter off and have that you saw then started to look out of the window to see what was going on and I could see a couple of fire engines etc is that the first time that

01:21:16 engines etc is that the first time that you looked out of the window yes now as we know your flat faces south and west I call it the southwest corner and which windows did you look out off at that point do you remember it was the South

01:21:27 point do you remember it was the South right the one rights to the picture that you showed me earlier at that point could you see any signs of fire or smoke no okay

01:21:36 no okay now paragraph 86 you say at this point my instincts just kicked in I knew there was a real problem why do you

01:21:47 do you at that point think there was a real problem well the amount of commotion the amount of lights and the ice hole firefighters running into the building I didn't think it was just you know

01:22:00 didn't think it was just you know somebody burning toast basically soft well better be safe rather than not or be prepared rather than not and then you go on to say I started to fill the

01:22:11 go on to say I started to fill the bathtub up with water yes just at that point did you notice any problems with the water pressure and not straight away now did that come later

01:22:23 straight away now did that come later yes at what point do you remember that came the problems with Volta pressure there was no water yeah but that was

01:22:35 there was no water yeah but that was what at what point is time it was after just shortly after the video and so I think probably just after 2:30 in the

01:22:47 think probably just after 2:30 in the morning okay now at the time you started to fill the bathtub did you notice smoke coming into the flat at all yes where was it coming in

01:22:59 flat at all yes where was it coming in from door the main door the main door the front door from where abouts around the front door was the smoke coming at that time the side and the bottom okay and we and you think that's about 20

01:23:12 and we and you think that's about 20 minutes after Helen came in the smoke yes yes yeah when from filling the responding to seeing the commotion outside filling the bathtub sensing the smoke yes oh maybe about 25 30 minutes

01:23:25 smoke yes oh maybe about 25 30 minutes after yeah and give or take but it changed rapidly from when I first opened the door to Helen to the second time I

01:23:37 the door to Helen to the second time I opened door it was pitch-black we'll come to that but just at this point when you're feeling that you you do pleura where there's a problem and you start filling the bathtub yeah is it just to be clear it's at that

01:23:49 yeah is it just to be clear it's at that point that you know to start smoke starting to come into the flat it was shortly after that yes because then I I took a towel out and put at the bottom of the right of the door right the smoke

01:24:01 of the right of the door right the smoke that was coming in could you describe it for us it was gray a bit dark dark gray smoke coming in right and at paragraph

01:24:13 smoke coming in right and at paragraph 87 of your statement moving through this you say in the last two sentences the lot the smoke smelt toxic anytime I breathed in it made me gag when he said

01:24:25 breathed in it made me gag when he said smelt toxic could you just explain why you say that cause it made me gag I've smelled smoke before and barbecues and it never makes me go but this was this

01:24:36 it never makes me go but this was this was an overpowering smell so as soon as you try and take a breath in it was just making me want to puke up straightaway I had the gagging sensation

01:24:50 straightaway I had the gagging sensation basically right with it did you notice any particular odor about the smell about the smoke well our photos chemically infused smell

01:25:05 but nothing I'd really smelled before the only thing that sort of comes to mind is back in school when I used to do chemistry in science lab with the Bunsen

01:25:18 chemistry in science lab with the Bunsen burners it was it was that type of smell hmm when you're burning some chemicals and it was there but it was just more chemistry higher dosages ah yes

01:25:34 then you say in para 90 paragraph 90 page 20 of your statement I'd open by the front door a few times after Helen and her daughter came into our flat to check the state of the smoke in the hallway each time I open the front door

01:25:46 hallway each time I open the front door I could see the smoke was getting thicker and thicker until eventually it was till it was eventually pitch black outside how many times did you open the front door before you fill the bath and

01:25:59 front door before you fill the bath and put towels down I don't think I did okay I found out ready right so who's opening the front door starts after the snake

01:26:10 the front door starts after the snake starts coming in you're trying to block it with the towels yeah I just wanted to see what was behind that door yeah how many times do you think you open the door well I stomates seven or eight

01:26:23 door well I stomates seven or eight times now I wasn't keeping count sorry did you notice each time whether the lights in the lobby were on and working or not I remember opening it and it was

01:26:38 or not I remember opening it and it was a really dark so I don't think the lights were on but I'm not understand all that

01:26:44 all that was there a time during this process of opening the door that you could the smoke was thin enough that you could see where the light was and that it was not

01:26:55 where the light was and that it was not shining well I can see the light food for the door panel so I didn't have to open it to see the light okay did during

01:27:07 open it to see the light okay did during that then did you notice the light fading or did you notice the light was suddenly not on anymore when I came back it just wasn't on right so it went from being on a she's looking off yes right okay

01:27:21 off yes right okay because I wasn't always there the front door now we're going to come to the first of your 999 calls which is we have timed at o2 21 and oh four seconds

01:27:36 before we get to it can I just ask you some questions about the conditions in your flat at that time Oh 221 by that point Helen and have been

01:27:47 Oh 221 by that point Helen and have been in Helen and her daughter had been in your flat for a little under an hour or so why did you not call an FB before that

01:27:57 that do you remember don't remember specifically but I did get some phone calls from other residents from the tower to say but and I think you

01:28:11 tower to say but and I think you explained what but they were telling me to get out I need to get out I think at a time I said I couldn't you know sis it's dark and then I decided to fun

01:28:24 it's dark and then I decided to fun night I think he was wondered one of my friends I said phone 909 and see what they say right before you phoned 909 what were your expectations that the

01:28:38 what were your expectations that the fabricator would deal with the situation and somebody been knocking on the door saying everything is resolved go back to bed that's talking

01:28:47 when you saw the smoke getting thicker and thicker and the like going off did you know did their well let me just ask it this way first of all did you notice the light going off before or after you

01:28:59 the light going off before or after you made your first 999 call it was off already when I made up did there come a point when you saw the smoke getting thicker and thicker and

01:29:11 smoke getting thicker and thicker and you've noticed the light was off in the hallway that you thought to yourself we must leave before it gets worse

01:29:20 yeah I wanted to leave but it was it was just difficult to navigate and I didn't know what we were going to go through at that point did the fact that Helen had

01:29:34 that point did the fact that Helen had told you that she had been told to go upstairs by a firefighter have any influence on your thinking at that time yeah absolutely yeah because if you ain't told to go

01:29:45 yeah because if you ain't told to go into a flat and wait then that tells me that they're dealing with it and it's quite safe come on why would you keep somebody in the building if it's not safe did you have any specific thoughts

01:29:56 safe did you have any specific thoughts about whether it whether it was safe to go down the stairwell see me you could get across the communal lobby well my assumption was that if the hallway was covered in smoking in

01:30:09 hallway was covered in smoking in stairwell was going to be covered in smoke well obviously I had no way of confirming that now we can go to your first 999 call which is lfb 3 4 8 and we

01:30:22 first 999 call which is lfb 3 4 8 and we can see the time of this call from the strat line of blue numbers across the top of the page and the time is the second from the right the group of number second from the right oh to 2104 and you can see that from the

01:30:42 oh to 2104 and you can see that from the first page of that

01:30:47 that you're reporting of fire I'm not gonna read it all to you and you're told by the operator that they're on scene and dealing with it now

01:30:58 and dealing with it now and you tell her you're on still on the 21st floor and then halfway down the page she says sorry I can't hear you can you and you say and I can't get out I'm still I said I'm still on the 21st floor

01:31:11 at this point how do you made any attempt to leave yes I believe so how long before this call had you made an attempt to leave and not long because I

01:31:24 attempt to leave and not long because I would have I would have called him straight pretty much very often so maybe maybe a couple minutes max okay and was it that inability to leave that

01:31:35 it that inability to leave that motivated you just call the lfb at that point yes no I mean I knew I knew did LFE were there because we couldn't see it from the window and they were being being dealt with and I'll say I've

01:31:46 being dealt with and I'll say I've spoken to other residents outside but when we tried to get out we just it was just too too difficult and when you say you try to leave does that mean that

01:31:58 you try to leave does that mean that you've got the family together with towels on and got ready to go out yes so

01:32:06 I'd filled the bathtub with water and threw sheets above you know big buff robes and tea towels and everything that

01:32:18 robes and tea towels and everything that I can grab and I sat everybody down together and I said when we is when we try to escape when we try to leave this is the order that we're gonna do it in

01:32:29 is the order that we're gonna do it in so I put Helen as the adult at the front I said she needs to lead the way followed by Andrea Medora my youngest door behind her and

01:32:42 youngest door behind her and and Helen's daughter and my daughter right behind them and I was going to be but the plan was I was gonna be the last one so that I can try to motivate him push him down and keep going sort of

01:32:54 push him down and keep going sort of thing so we discussed that to the point where I said as soon as you open the front door thank you lady

01:33:16 maybe already so I said then since you open the front door you know where where the stairwell door is which

01:33:27 where where the stairwell door is which is basically got agony you're gonna hit the door

01:33:31 the door the door will swing open so don't worry about it just go straight through as soon as you go through that grab the Darrell the middle rail and

01:33:42 grab the Darrell the middle rail and just don't let go Darrell and just follow it down because that's your quickest route down so we all knew what we had to do at that point just to be clear that this is at the point before

01:33:54 clear that this is at the point before this first no no no 'uncle yes you already know we had that conversation before tonight so there was a clear plan yes family plan yes everybody was to have a tea towel around their face and a

01:34:09 have a tea towel around their face and a bedsheet or a big towel over them because we didn't know what to expect in a stairwell yes now going to page 3 of

01:34:20 a stairwell yes now going to page 3 of the transcript in the middle of the page you're told by the operator it's alright because what we're doing is we're telling our command units that are on

01:34:32 telling our command units that are on the scene and they're going round the flat so I just need to confirm you're in flat 183 21st floor and then you go want to say who's in the flat and a page for

01:34:44 to say who's in the flat and a page for you you say top of the page yes she's seven months pregnant seven months okay I'm going to tell them that and they'll come and take you out and then she goes

01:34:59 come and take you out and then she goes on halfway down the page to say okay then that's fine well I'm going to as soon as I put the phone down to you I'm going to go and tell our command unit that's on the scene and there okay you

01:35:10 that's on the scene and there okay you said going round people at the moment okay and the call basically finishes after that conversation and what did you believe would happen next that somebody

01:35:23 believe would happen next that somebody was coming to the rescue us did you have any any thoughts or beliefs about how long that might take yeah I fought maybe 10 15 minutes

01:35:34 yeah I fought maybe 10 15 minutes because you have to come up the stairs was my my assumption did that have any influence on what you then did next well waited by the door so yeah I I told the

01:35:49 waited by the door so yeah I I told the girls to make sure that they already had their trainers on that they were ready to go so I kept encouraging them to be ready basically they were saying they were in the same room sitting on a sofa

01:36:01 were in the same room sitting on a sofa that at that time Helen and Andrea was by the kitchen window for the majority of time so just making sure that they were all ready to go what I was expecting was a big bang on on the door

01:36:13 expecting was a big bang on on the door and I would open it and we would all go when at the point of the call finishes was there any smoke coming into your flat there was smoke coming in this but

01:36:26 flat there was smoke coming in this but and was it coming through the front door as before yes anywhere else I'm not sure about anywhere else I the majority of the time I was in the corridor inside my

01:36:38 the time I was in the corridor inside my flat padano by anybody else we had the windows open you know the windows open yeah now I'm going to take you next to

01:36:49 yeah now I'm going to take you next to the video of your front door opening time - OH - 32 so twelve minutes or so after your 999 call the first 999 call I

01:37:05 after your 999 call the first 999 call I should just give a trigger warning of about this mr. chairman this has been seen before those who were or have looked at the evidence of mascara mescal

01:37:17 looked at the evidence of mascara mescal Helen gave romesco will remember that I showed it it does contain contact content which some people might find distressing yes and so I'm going to pause for 20 seconds or so to allow people to take the necessary measures to

01:37:29 people to take the necessary measures to protect themselves from it that's right it shows nothing of the exterior of the building on fire it is it is but it is a picture of maneuvering back very uncommon neighbors

01:37:42 if we can tee it up before we play it it's iws five zero six to three

01:38:02 well no one seems to want to leave this world and I think there's been enough time for people to leave on the places where they can do this save let's proceed Thank You mr. chairman if we can

01:38:14 proceed Thank You mr. chairman if we can just have that video I'm gonna play it once or twice to see how we go

01:38:51 now first of all to confirm that you say that the time of that video is o - 30 - yes and where did you get that time mark from it's the time stamp on the video

01:39:04 from it's the time stamp on the video itself and you took it yourself did you yes

01:39:07 yes so your phone was in your left hand and you opened the door with your right I think so yes yes it was I write mixed up but I think that it yes because I tested

01:39:19 but I think that it yes because I tested the heat of them thought with my right yes okay now but I just want to ask you to look at one or two things first of all can I ask it be played and then

01:39:30 all can I ask it be played and then paused after four seconds if we can do that

01:39:48 now we saw in that thing that's it again no we don't need to see it again we saw in that clip smoke coming up the left-hand side of the door was it coming from anywhere else around the door and

01:39:59 from anywhere else around the door and it at the bottom right now as they play it from the start and see if you can just identify as it's being played where the smoke was coming through the bottom of the door before it's played can I ask is it possible to freeze it so that we

01:40:11 is it possible to freeze it so that we can get us still shots yet rather than just cutting the transmission it is ngenikis one can stop can I just say that there is no towels they already use

01:40:23 that there is no towels they already use a towel at the bottom and I managed to put a towel on the hook on the side well you can see it yes yeah who's gonna ask you about the yeah okay let's just see if we can get capture the smoke coming

01:40:34 if we can get capture the smoke coming through the bottom of the stairs stop now can you point out where the smokes coming in well can you identify this

01:40:45 coming in well can you identify this make itself it'd be down here and you can see the that's a white towel I don't wait so you can see it's already in darkened right and those gray lodges are those is that smoke yes I believe so

01:40:58 those is that smoke yes I believe so right just playing on a second or two more and I stopping there so the object hanging on the door hook what is that

01:41:09 hanging on the door hook what is that that's another towel that's not one of the bigger towels I heard yet okay so I because it was coming in through the sides as well I tried to put a towel

01:41:20 sides as well I tried to put a towel there to try and stop it as much as possible if we can just play on and then stop it at 18 seconds

01:41:46 now at this point the door is partially open as we can see and we can see what's outside what we can't see what's hand

01:41:58 outside what we can't see what's hand side was that blackness that we can see blacker than on previous occasions that you'd open the door yes it was how much blacker that's possible to describe it

01:42:12 blacker that's possible to describe it well you can see your hand to front of your face there it was dad doc

01:42:22 just been just before to that video I tried to go to my neighbor's right see you tried to give in to it and to their

01:42:35 you tried to give in to it and to their door how far did you get

01:42:42 not pasta okay does this is take a second

01:42:49 I'm going to ask for this to be played on a little bit more to the end is that okay yeah if we just play to the end

01:43:08 now the smoke that you saw at that point did you when you open the door could you

01:43:20 did you when you open the door could you smell it or did you have a physical effect on you it made me gag and they walk off on that one but it was just

01:43:31 walk off on that one but it was just difficult to breathe and I remember my eyes stinging as well with that their eyes stinging okay yep right does the

01:43:47 eyes stinging okay yep right does the video that we've seen to the best of your recollection accurately reflect the thickness and the color of the smoke outside your flat at that time yeah yes

01:44:00 outside your flat at that time yeah yes it does it justice does it it does yes okay there's um there's a white wall right in front of that door which you clearly can't see which is probably

01:44:11 clearly can't see which is probably about a meter away so it just told you the thickness of that this is the smoke there now we know from the video we can hear it I'm not going to play it back to

01:44:23 hear it I'm not going to play it back to you but we can hear a shower running yes in the background and I think you say in your statement a paragraph 88 and again it's Nene to look at it that that you turned it on because the air was dry

01:44:35 turned it on because the air was dry because of the smoke and he wanted to get wet particles into the air to try to make it easier to breathe did it help I'm not sure if it did but

01:44:46 did it help I'm not sure if it did but my thinking was because it was so dry if I can try and get at least some wear particles in the air it makes it easier I think it probably did but I can't see

01:45:00 I think it probably did but I can't see how on himself it stopped soon after that I was going to ask you how long after it do you think it stopped maybe 5-10 minutes after that it stopped but luckily I had

01:45:12 after that it stopped but luckily I had to fill the bathtub already it stopped suddenly or did it just gradually come to a halt I can't remember and I remember walking back and it had stopped right so the bathroom is

01:45:27 it had stopped right so the bathroom is right they opened that front door the boffins the wall on the left and okay that this may not help very much but do you remember whether it was hot water or cold water or a mixture of the both I

01:45:38 cold water or a mixture of the both I think it was cold water right back on via I might attend both Daman do you recall it ever starting up again the water no I left the tap open and it

01:45:53 water no I left the tap open and it never did it never did right now at the time you were in the flat around about this time that you've you say in your statement that you received call from

01:46:04 statement that you received call from friends outside so Miguel Alvarez Ivan Costa Suarez did they give you any advice on what to do me girl told me to get out well you were on the phone to me

01:46:18 get out well you were on the phone to me well are you saying paragraph 102 of your statement that you hit that you heard him receiving advice from emergency services yes and and from a

01:46:30 emergency services yes and and from a firefighter or a policeman I think you say do you remember how many conversations you heard him have I think two that I heard him have yeah at least two and if

01:46:47 heard him have yeah at least two and if we go to paragraph 102 of your statement which is on page 22 at the very bottom of the page you say three lines up I could hear the advice he was given by a

01:47:00 could hear the advice he was given by a member of staff from the emergency services which was to hang tight and someone will come up for us what did you understand by hang tight wait

01:47:16 and how late how late into the night do you remember that advice what what sort of time was the hang tight advice that

01:47:27 of time was the hang tight advice that you heard via Niguel that would have been before my first 999 call okay because that's when I spoke to to Vigo

01:47:39 because that's when I spoke to to Vigo and Miguel then right he gave the information to I've dunno if there's a fire fire or policemen buffing you might be in a fire fire where he said you know

01:47:51 be in a fire fire where he said you know my friends on the 21st floor and it's got two daughters and no pregnant wife and how long do you think before your

01:48:04 and how long do you think before your first nine nine nine call did you hear that advice via mig wells fame um I don't think it's too long maybe 15 20

01:48:15 don't think it's too long maybe 15 20 minutes before I made a 9 I know right now you make a second 999 call at 2:46 58 and we can have this transcript up

01:48:26 58 and we can have this transcript up please be 672

01:48:40 and you can see the time from the numbers across the top the second from the right of which say Oh 246 58 and I

01:48:53 the right of which say Oh 246 58 and I think this is the transcript that you hadn't seen when you did your first statement but having seen it you made your second statement is that is that right yes okay leaves up now in your

01:49:07 right yes okay leaves up now in your second statement a paragraph seven if I could just show you that second second statement paragraph seven you say my

01:49:23 statement paragraph seven you say my family and I along with Helen and her daughter attempted to escape from our flat on two occasions in between my first and second calls to the emergency services it appears from the time of my

01:49:35 services it appears from the time of my second 999 call at 246 am that I made this call soon after our second failed attempt to escape now the attempts to

01:49:49 attempt to escape now the attempts to escape you describe the first one does that does that mean that there was a second group attempt between these two calls it there was here was that after or before the video you took do you

01:50:01 or before the video you took do you remember I think it would have been after the video right so we have attempt 1 first 999 call video attempt to set

01:50:16 1 first 999 call video attempt to set second oh yeah think so yes okay so I've got it roughly at least in my head that's that and then you make the call what was it that prompted this call well

01:50:31 what was it that prompted this call well we can get out

01:50:34 and at a time if I remember correctly we well I could see bright light by the window so I knew that the the fibers was

01:50:52 window so I knew that the the fibers was high up right now going to the transcript if you can please look at page one you say I'm the second line I'm

01:51:07 page one you say I'm the second line I'm still waiting at flat 183 and the FAR's already reached us okay so where is the fire is it in your flat now the operator asks you and you say no it's in the flat

01:51:18 asks you and you say no it's in the flat next door and it's already coming through the windows so yes that's what you say

01:51:26 which window could in your flat could you see what you're describing there out of my bedroom in the bedroom window my bedroom window yes so the one

01:51:38 window my bedroom window yes so the one opposite the hall door the longer the engine stalls engine store into the lobby right

01:51:47 and what could you see through that window at the hairline just a bright light obvious in the middle of the night and so but there was a this yellow and reddish flames right

01:51:59 reddish flames right well not flames but bright lights a glow and a glove yeah do you remember whether the glow was when you look at the window to your leverage which side you've just

01:52:11 to your leverage which side you've just indicated to your left my left so your neck it was coming from that 1e2 so the East yeah at what level was the glow would you get

01:52:23 at what level was the glow would you get did you get a sense of whether it was below you at your level or above you I thought is that my level and then the

01:52:35 thought is that my level and then the operator says halfway down page one okay right okay in that case erm if you feel it's not safe to be in the flat anymore okay you may have to

01:52:46 the flat anymore okay you may have to leave the flat and you say there's no way we can leave a flat there's too much smoke outside and then she gives you the advice about wet blankets and going out and then at the bottom you say right is

01:52:57 and then at the bottom you say right is them gonna come and meet us on the stairs and she responds we've got firefighters who are making their way up but it's very slow progress at the moment okay if you feel if you feel the

01:53:08 moment okay if you feel if you feel the fire well the fires next door we can't the fires next door yet then you need to you need to go you need to go go to the nearest stairwell it'll be dark out there all right but cover your faces wet

01:53:19 there all right but cover your faces wet towels all right and that'll stop you inhaling the smoke okay and then the call ends I've read that all to you because it's short but from her responses did you understand that the

01:53:31 responses did you understand that the firefighters were still able to reach your floor yes oh it was slow process but she said they were making their way up right so you know you know as far as I'm concerned

01:53:43 know you know as far as I'm concerned I've got three children with me and a heavily pregnant wife so I can't carry them all

01:53:52 them all now you've seen the advice for your given going to the nearest stairwell with towels did you have a clear

01:54:03 with towels did you have a clear impression in your mind at that point what her advice was in terms of going to de stairwell well let me put it to you

01:54:15 de stairwell well let me put it to you this way when the call ends what was the what impression did you have in your mind about what you should do for that they were still coming up to guess and wait and I fought at a time that she was

01:54:28 wait and I fought at a time that she was telling me that way as long as you can and then get out if you can't wait any longer okay but I still had the

01:54:39 longer okay but I still had the assumption that they were coming right so when she says to you you need to you need to go to the nearest stairwell how

01:54:52 need to go to the nearest stairwell how important do you think that advice was

01:54:59 not sure to be honest I probably D him to pay attention to that in all fairness right this I would a stairways there isn't you know it's right there in front of me right and there's only one

01:55:10 of me right and there's only one stairwell let me ask you a different way did you get the impression from the advice you were being given that you had to leave it out all at all costs or did you still think there was a choice in the matter

01:55:21 the matter no I still thought there was a choice in the matter yes now after this call did you try to leave and no nothing son

01:55:38 we then have a third call at o2 55:38 and that's lfb 392

01:55:51 we can tell the time of that from again the second group of numbers just wait till it's up there it is the second group of numbers from the right Oh

01:56:02 group of numbers from the right Oh 255 38 and this is about 9 minutes or so after the second call which we've just looked at first of all what prompted

01:56:15 looked at first of all what prompted that call

01:56:16 that call do you remember you'll need to show me did transcript first okay page 2 fire brigade hello I'm calling

01:56:28 page 2 fire brigade hello I'm calling from 183 we can't get out hello fire brigade hello I'm calling from 183 Grenfell tower we can't get out that's that's how the call starts do you

01:56:40 that's how the call starts do you remember

01:56:41 remember what prompted the call I think we must have tried then I might have the the timings of when we tried to get out run but or between the calls yes I think

01:56:55 but or between the calls yes I think that

01:57:04 yet that would have been the second attempt I believe okay I think my tongue on that call would have changed if I remember correctly listening to be cool

01:57:17 remember correctly listening to be cool and that's cause I was upset with Andrea at the time um cuz that was if memory

01:57:30 at the time um cuz that was if memory serves me correctly that was the time when andreas stopped by the door we managed to get out or Helen managed to get out and andrea was behind but she stopped and start crying and then we

01:57:45 stopped and start crying and then we retreated back into the ear flap okay so does that is it fair then to take from that that the result of the second call

01:57:58 that that the result of the second call was that although you thought you had a choice as you told us your choice was to try to make an exit yes I think yes that's right and then that fails the reasons you've described you've come

01:58:09 reasons you've described you've come back into the flat and then make this call

01:58:11 call do ya correct I mean okay and I had had a go and Andre are saying you can't stop halfway when when we started we need to

01:58:22 halfway when when we started we need to go you can't keep stopping you know that was that that was the second attempt and we stopped before stepping out of the door

01:58:36 now okay to the transcript you explained you tried a number of times on that page and then if you go to page 3 of the

01:58:48 and then if you go to page 3 of the transcript you tell her just below the top of the page that you've got a side to the flat way it's got fresh air and

01:58:59 to the flat way it's got fresh air and you say yeah and and the middle of the page you're asked again what your flat with clatters 21st floor work flat 183 183 okay I'll let the farmer know okay

01:59:10 183 okay I'll let the farmer know okay to come up to you and you say yeah three kids three kids three adults and one heavily pregnant wife Therese a six of you and a pregnant lady okay I'll let

01:59:23 you and a pregnant lady okay I'll let them know

01:59:28 after the call was finished what impression did you form of the advice you'd been given what do you think it was they're coming to get us

01:59:40 was they're coming to get us right did you think you still have to get out of the flat at that point what I wanted to get out of the flat that's why we attempted it in the first place but

01:59:52 we attempted it in the first place but at that point we were still safe or safest can be in the flat right so I felt we had a bit of time to still

02:00:03 so I felt we had a bit of time to still wait and especially if they're coming up

02:00:13 and then you make a forth call at oh three oh nine 52

02:00:20 [Music]

02:00:24 and mr. chairman it's we've been going for almost an hour but I do I think if I can cover this call which will be about five minutes or so maybe it'll be an appropriate brace now you make this call

02:00:38 appropriate brace now you make this call it's lfb for one two and we can see the time again second group of numbers from the right

02:00:48 the right Oh 309 52 and it starts on page two floor twenty-one and fire brigade fire brigade floor twenty-one you're on floor 21 are you still in your flat yes we can't get out and do you remember what

02:01:02 can't get out and do you remember what prompted that call this is at 309 your foot your third one was at 250 255 and say this is 14 minutes or so later did

02:01:18 say this is 14 minutes or so later did you try to make another attempt to escape between the third call and this fourth call do you remember or not not in my mind but maybe and you're asked

02:01:33 in my mind but maybe and you're asked towards the bottom of the page it any fire in your flat and you say not at the moment but there is next door okay right there is next door now just pausing there what could you see which led you

02:01:46 there what could you see which led you to tell her that there was a there was a fire in the flat next event had a glow that was that was there had there been any change in that glow between the call when you wait it got stronger but that's

02:01:58 when you wait it got stronger but that's what that's all I can see okay and then she says at the foot of page - okay well listen the advice we're giving now you need to have a page leave and you need to make your way I can't down the

02:02:10 to make your way I can't down the stairwell

02:02:11 stairwell we can't leave there's too much smoke and you go on to tell her and the smokes coming in and it's overpowering and at the bottom of page three she says and asks you literally can't walk out into

02:02:22 asks you literally can't walk out into it no okay and then she says at the bottom of page 4 after establishing your floor twenty-first

02:02:34 establishing your floor twenty-first floor you she says I can let the crews know that you're not leaving the flat you say yeah but our advice is to try and leave and make your way and you say we've tried down the stairs again what we've tried you say well is it you just

02:02:47 we've tried you say well is it you just can't breathe as soon as you open the door and you say as soon as you open that all black smoke just comes in and you can't breathe you just can't breathe and then she says at the top of the next page page 6 I mean the situation at the

02:03:00 page page 6 I mean the situation at the moment is there there's going to be some time before they get to you and the best advice we can give you is to make another attempt to get to leave if you can and get into the stairwell and down

02:03:11 can and get into the stairwell and down and then she repeats that advice at the bottom of the page page 6 having told sorry I should pick this up actually

02:03:22 sorry I should pick this up actually two-thirds of the way down she says well we are well the people are going up and down we are sending people down the stairs from the floors above you so people are making their way out of the building and then she goes on to say in

02:03:33 building and then she goes on to say in the next part it's your decision obviously I can't make you do anything but our advice to you is to try and do that okay now just at that point in the conversation did you think what did it

02:03:48 conversation did you think what did it did it did it seem to you that actually you should you not only should get out but might be able to because the stairway was being used by other people to escape I don't remember that

02:04:00 to escape I don't remember that conversation to be honest right Sarkar can't a call box off for that long ok all right now then I'll just try a couple more paragraphs with your

02:04:11 a couple more paragraphs with your passages with you could she says a page 7 of the transcript at the top that should let the crews know you're still in the flat and towards the bottom she says 3/4 of the way down she says they

02:04:23 says 3/4 of the way down she says they are doing everything they can to get to you but it's going to be sometime and then she says is your decision

02:04:33 and at the bottom of page 8 she says it's the just a situation we're trying with everything we've got we've got hundreds of firefighters they're trying to get to you it's just a situation and

02:04:44 to get to you it's just a situation and they were the top of page nine it's the advice we're giving at the moment ago to tell the crews that you're still in there in the flat and we'll make it a priority to get to you and then she says if you can give it just one more try to get out that's the best

02:04:56 one more try to get out that's the best advice we're giving do you remember anything this cool I remember them telling us we were gonna be a priority okay what did that mean to you I mean

02:05:08 okay what did that mean to you I mean somebody's coming up to get you right and did that did that can influence your decision as to whether you should now do what everything you could do it anything

02:05:20 what everything you could do it anything you could to escape or to stay no it made me stay longer than before they were coming up so right I felt that we

02:05:31 were coming up so right I felt that we had still a little bit more time to wait for them all right we can clearly see her or hit in this call telling you that their best advice is for you to escape what part did that play in your

02:05:42 what part did that play in your decision-making well we tried before so you know I prefer being outside the building than being inside the building quite clearly but you know if we try and and we can't make it right to the

02:05:55 and we can't make it right to the stairwell door and it's quite difficult to get out at that time if you'd been told that the crews weren't able to access the 21st floor at that stage what would you have done I'd have been much

02:06:06 would you have done I'd have been much more forceful with everybody at that time I still thought we had hope of being rescued and having a heavily

02:06:17 being rescued and having a heavily pregnant wife and three kids but I didn't know where to direct them you know it was the unknown at that moment I knew my flat was still safe as we can

02:06:30 knew my flat was still safe as we can breathe and there was no fire in it I didn't know what the stare wall was like or what we were getting into so it's very difficult to then try and take a family of seven fruity unknown

02:06:43 take a family of seven fruity unknown and not knowing where you can go through yeah yes now after this call and they may not have a clear recollection of it do you remember where you were all

02:06:55 do you remember where you were all waiting in the flat yes roughly I guess where the majority my time was in the corridor I was keeping an eye on the

02:07:09 corridor I was keeping an eye on the smoke coming through the door and because I was still waiting for the firefighters to come banging on a door I wanted to make sure that I opened that door straightaway the girls where

02:07:21 door straightaway the girls where everybody else was in the kitchen sort of sitting room area because I was the area where had the the clearest air now mr. game is a wonder whether we

02:07:33 now mr. game is a wonder whether we shouldn't have a break yes I was just about to suggest that no that was what it was finish the yes there were two more there were two more questions before we actually get to that

02:07:44 questions before we actually get to that last call but they are based on the timing of that call I'm not going to ask for the transcript to go off at the moment but do the call is at o'the 3:20 5:45 a.m. which is the last call you

02:07:59 5:45 a.m. which is the last call you make and it's the long call we're going to be examining after the break my questions are but before you made that call what were the conditions like in the flat it was smoky it was getting

02:08:12 the flat it was smoky it was getting worse I had the girls at that time sitting on the floor in the same room because the smoke had already reached a sound level that you can be standing

02:08:24 sound level that you can be standing uncomfortably where was the smoke coming from as far as I'm aware still the the main door anywhere else probably through the windows back on I didn't spend

02:08:36 the windows back on I didn't spend enough time at the windows to please can you say you couldn't stand so that means that the smoke would have come down to hit roughly an adult's head height is that right my head height yeah

02:08:50 on that day mr. chairman it's good to have another break mr. Curtis yeah but can I just just say that obviously being told I preferred being told that nobody of now we'll see

02:09:03 told that nobody of now we'll see recognized that the firefighters can make it above the sound floor and if they would have told me that nobody's coming then obviously that would have changed my decision or my approach just

02:09:17 changed my decision or my approach just to be clear no way you think it will we will have a break now so we'll come back at 20 past 12:00 and don't talk too

02:09:30 at 20 past 12:00 and don't talk too annoying about your evidence mr. Chen before we do yeah I'm happy that the witness should leave with the ash with the ashes but before I do I need to give a very clear warning about what is coming next well alarmist again yes let's do that

02:09:43 well alarmist again yes let's do that Gil begins you go in the washer

02:09:55 then you might think it's sensible to give this warning when we come back in case anyone who's not in at the moment is here and would not have heard it if

02:10:07 is here and would not have heard it if you give it no I'm gonna give it both both sides right yes I think well just say people can if they don't want to come back and stay out and they sued haven't heard it what I'm going to do

02:10:20 haven't heard it what I'm going to do next is to put into the record the transcript the full transcript of mr. gomez his fifth call to the nine nine nine to nine nine nine it lasts 33

02:10:32 nine to nine nine nine it lasts 33 minutes I will be not only showing it on the screen but also playing large parts of the audio the reason for playing it is so as to enable us to ask particular

02:10:45 is so as to enable us to ask particular questions of him which do not immediately appear evident on the transcript in parts it is an extremely distressing thing to listen to so those

02:10:57 distressing thing to listen to so those who don't think they are able to listen to it and it is distressing in parts should make it make it that make it take the opportunity not to listen to it or to come back into the room or to observe

02:11:08 to come back into the room or to observe the livestream once the questions are finished then those who have left the room all got away from the livestream will be invited to come back and join me and join us I'll repeat that when we

02:11:21 and join us I'll repeat that when we come back yes thank you very much twenty past twelve please

02:21:31 I would you like to ask mr. Gomez to come back in please

02:21:52 right mr. Gomez yes thank you carry on will it say something to you so just like this to give us thank you for coming back to us and I gave a repeat perhaps not verbatim what I said just before we break which is that I'm about

02:22:05 before we break which is that I'm about to show you your last telephone call 325 or so and play the audio or much of it to you at the same time as showing you

02:22:16 to you at the same time as showing you the transcript the reason for my doing so is to enable us to ask you further questions about it it's distressing very distressing in parts and I should just

02:22:27 distressing in parts and I should just repeat for everybody's benefit that if there are people in the room or watching on livestream who may find this distressing then the best advice we can give us for them to either to leave this room or if they're watching remotely

02:22:38 room or if they're watching remotely just to turn their livestream off or look away the call itself lasts 33 minutes but since we're going to be playing much of the call the questions and the process will take a little bit longer mr. chairman it may be necessary

02:22:49 longer mr. chairman it may be necessary for us to take a slightly longer morning before the lunch break because I think it is essential if we can do it that we take this in one well I think we shall make every effort to do so very good does anybody wish to leave at this point

02:23:02 does anybody wish to leave at this point well not from this from this term Annette and I assume that those who've heard it elsewhere will have taken any appropriate action yes and I just want to make it clear to them to the witness and for everything that the call is a

02:23:14 and for everything that the call is a call which trans which is the audio record of your journey from your flat on the 21st floor across the lobby and down the stairs to the ground floor and the

02:23:28 the stairs to the ground floor and the reason I want to play the call is because the inquiry wants to get a sense of the physical conditions of various points in that in that part of the

02:23:39 points in that in that part of the building over this period I get a stop all you do can I just say this again is I think you may find this quite difficult at times if you do just make

02:23:50 difficult at times if you do just make it clear that you want short break will be guided by you I wouldn't take your time other things all right thank you know what I'm going to do is ask for the transcript to come up

02:24:01 do is ask for the transcript to come up onto the screen it's sir LF be four to seven and I get to ask the documents director to turn through the pages as we go through the call you need to start

02:24:16 go through the call you need to start the audio of the call with page 23 times

02:25:15 the audio of the call with page 23 times I've tried three times yeah pick out there's no way with no right okay wondering before yeah come on junior

02:25:27 wondering before yeah come on junior it's down there we're gonna put you a try and get you at the pile at the outside because justify to get out three times it's icy out three times then different coins Cogdell and lodges in a

02:25:38 different coins Cogdell and lodges in a house mill just comes yeah I'm so sorry you've got the children yeah three times took out the five is five bit why is it but it's a fire

02:25:51 five bit why is it but it's a fire engine now the five year supply you know their five and a half now but you just pausing there mr. Gomez first of all did you hear or get the

02:26:03 first of all did you hear or get the impression that the control room operator was talking to somebody else in the control room at the same time as you I think she was yeah okay now you say oh the fires here the

02:26:15 now you say oh the fires here the fires here and then go on the fires here the fire is in the house what were you saying

02:26:20 saying at that point the fire at that moment in

02:26:31 at that point the fire at that moment in time was kind of through my bedroom window let's take this a little bit the bit slowly no did you have a good view of the fire coming through your bedroom window

02:26:42 window yes where was it coming through and I just finished closing that window because of the smoke and because I could

02:26:54 because of the smoke and because I could see that there was the glow it was the same wind that I was referring to about the glow coming from my neighbor's flat and then I can see that it was just getting a lot brighter and I formally closed it because I've

02:27:07 and I formally closed it because I've got curtains on that window so I closed it and walk back to the corridor so that precise moment in time I was standing

02:27:18 precise moment in time I was standing between well just just in front of my bedroom door looking at the window and I remember looking at it and thinking I've

02:27:29 remember looking at it and thinking I've just closed that window how's the fire in my bedroom and it wasn't through the window but the winner was still locked sharp the glass hadn't cracked it was

02:27:42 sharp the glass hadn't cracked it was still intact but where was burning it was around the frame of the window right and they may not remember precisely that do you do you recall where around the

02:27:53 do you do you recall where around the frame the fire was coming in it was all around it but more so up towards the bottom I'm just I need to frame

02:28:03 and did you notice any heat change in the flat at that point no right it was already hot so they really know is to

02:28:15 already hot so they really know is to change the last time you looked at that window before you left the flat how far into the flat was the fire and it

02:28:27 into the flat was the fire and it started then in my M the curtains was around around the window the Moses

02:28:41 around around the window the Moses basking

02:28:43 basking so the is it the first time you saw the fire coming in through that window was while he were on this call at this point yes correct and then it's light at the top yeah in

02:28:56 and then it's light at the top yeah in the ceiling and then you just coming towards me at that point at that point could you see what was burning around the window it was the curtains the Moses

02:29:10 the window it was the curtains the Moses basket which is just before my bed and then some items that we had around ornaments and that kind of stuff but then there's not the ceiling was what

02:29:21 then there's not the ceiling was what stood out and quite a lot for me because it just was spreading through to see you okay rapidly did you notice anything on the ceiling near the window on fire in particular that whole bit seeing him was

02:29:34 particular that whole bit seeing him was on fire yeah it was quick it was spreading quick and a scene and then it was through my furniture yes okay thank you

02:29:44 you going to continue with the call will continue advice oh it's a fire is in the house get out the house through the help

02:29:55 house get out the house through the help house you've got to get some wet towels around doing Network mouth right the reptiles do you talking to I was getting continued just

02:30:59 talking to I was getting continued just pausing there we just heard a moment or two okay some coughing I think it was you coughing was that because of the smoke inside the flat or how do you open the door at that stage I think we did

02:31:10 the door at that stage I think we did open the door that stage right okay and and you heard me gag there as well I did and then I was trying speaking and just right gagged yes okay

02:31:23 right gagged yes okay yet to me there's no question I'd like you to squabble you just got to go stay with me on the fire right hold on hold on and go by let's go girls

02:31:36 on and go by let's go girls bye baby yeah you know we have to go we have to go go go go go go go right right

02:31:52 have to go go go go go go go right right just pausing there you say get the stairs now go at that point where were you remember

02:32:05 yeah I think taking a step back I don't pay we Wow when yeah I think that we probably open the door because Helen was at the front and I think it was the

02:32:16 at the front and I think it was the intake of the smoke coming in because it doesn't make sense in my head what I've just listened to often when I said go go go means go through the door yes I know

02:32:59 go means go through the door yes I know you could hear yourself saying keep going keep going we just end with a coffin some other sounds where were you at this point do you think I think we've probably just gone through the m4d a

02:33:12 probably just gone through the m4d a stairwell door the sterile dawn think yes I think so how long do you think it took you to cross the across the lobby it doesn't take long I told five steps right it's not a huge

02:33:26 I told five steps right it's not a huge distance but who was leading in this stage hello and could you did you cross the lobby at normal walking speed or did you have to feel your way and walk slowly not normal walking speed but

02:33:37 slowly not normal walking speed but hurried speed right but I didn't have to feel my way now fine you ready where it was and because because where they built the the new riser cupboards they took

02:33:50 the the new riser cupboards they took away hallway space there was a wall so I knew if you got agony you're gonna hit that wall first if you don't hit the door you're gonna hit that that wall and then you're gonna hit the door so I was

02:34:01 then you're gonna hit the door so I was confident that they would just hit it and then go straight through so we hurried but not we weren't running or at least I don't think we were running because I thought not to run because a stairwell you

02:34:15 not to run because a stairwell you wouldn't be able to see anything and I didn't want anybody to break an ankle before low and flat up so I told him to go as quickly as possible this is proxy before when we had the initial discussions to go at speed and

02:34:29 initial discussions to go at speed and not running in terms of the procession the order at Helen at the front yes and then Andrea behind her and then it would have been a drayan magar youngest and

02:34:42 have been a drayan magar youngest and then Helen's daughter and my daughter behind him and me lost and we were all holding hands across the lobby so you

02:34:54 holding hands across the lobby so you knew where each other that was initially about that soon stopped okay will you well okay were you all holding hands at the point you've got to the sorry let me

02:35:05 the point you've got to the sorry let me just ask it this way when you got to the stairwell door were you still holding a hand no okay no because I am I don't

02:35:17 hand no okay no because I am I don't know why

02:35:22 for some reason I went for my keys which was in a bowl there but my thinking was if we had to try to combat which of CI

02:35:34 if we had to try to combat which of CI no there was never gonna happen back home

02:35:36 home I sort of stopped myself and was reaching for the keys so I wasted a few seconds there and I wasn't holding the

02:35:52 seconds there and I wasn't holding the end of that again it sounded like it was

02:36:25 at this point yes I'm fine tomato result

02:36:54 that point B or in the stairs I think because we've got yes the stairs could you see the others the rest of the family no you can't see anything did you

02:37:05 family no you can't see anything did you have a sense of how far ahead of you they were I had no idea I assumed they were just right fine I'll continue at this point you're in the stairwell did

02:37:16 this point you're in the stairwell did you get a sense of the smoke density and conditions in the stairs as compared with the lobby that you just come through it was probably worse but not by

02:37:28 through it was probably worse but not by much in the stairs in the stairs yeah right

02:37:30 right did you get a sense of the temperature no it was hot it was hot was it hotter than the lobby in the stairs um I think there was a slight change but not not

02:37:42 there was a slight change but not not huge change how hot well compare it we are we've been using comparators like an English summer's day or a summers day or a sauna the source of its recent

02:37:53 a sauna the source of its recent comparative try that was it hotter all the same as or cooler than a sauna it was like a sauna

02:38:08 [Music]

02:38:12 did did the fact that be operate was telling you encourage you in any way yeah just at that point

02:38:53 yeah just at that point you didn't say keep going keep going how is your breathing at that stage at difficult you are able to shout keep going keep going what does that tell us about how you were able to take air into your lungs

02:39:04 were able to take air into your lungs and then expel that with force to shout what you can hear after I shout keep going it's difficult to then brief again but yeah to try I did have the cloth and

02:39:18 but yeah to try I did have the cloth and towel in front as much as I could know and but obviously it's a speak I had to move out right off my face did you get into your lungs unmediated smoke another

02:39:29 into your lungs unmediated smoke another word smoke that had not come through the towel but was yeah what do I feel like at this stage horrible it was just as if it was filled with something but

02:39:40 as if it was filled with something but not air and you just felt like my lungs were just that tight it was just very difficult to breathe

02:39:52 at this point it's almost like a little

02:40:53 at this point it's almost like a little bit more during this discussion you're shouting and you say I can't something could you describe thee the air your ability to take in air at this point it

02:41:06 ability to take in air at this point it was very difficult at that point and I think that's what I was referring to right as I can't breathing because I was trying to shout and brief at the same time then it just wasn't quite working I

02:41:18 time then it just wasn't quite working I don't to put an idea into your head but it sounds as if your throat is involuntarily closing when you tried to put draw air in at this stage there's a lot of gagging other things quite clear

02:41:30 lot of gagging other things quite clear on the call but there was a lot of gagging reflexes happening as well okay and but during this price during this period of this call are you on the move

02:41:41 period of this call are you on the move constantly yes right how fast do you think you're moving down

02:41:49 I'm trying to concentrate on giving them encouragement to keep going and keeping myself tight to the rail maybe a steady

02:42:04 myself tight to the rail maybe a steady steady pace but not not walk a little bit faster on walking but not not that jogging speed was your phone in your left hand right if only on right hand

02:42:18 left hand right if only on right hand were you using your left hand for anything yes to hold down the rail of saline yeah it's a bit weird but um because I hadn't looked the phone here I

02:42:30 because I hadn't looked the phone here I was using my elbow on the rail I see to follow it down and when I had to move things out of the way I'd use my left hand to grab the roll and swing me

02:42:41 hand to grab the roll and swing me around because the rolls in the middle so you because the rails on your right as you descend some of my rights yes so finding the right hand elbow being on your right side right although being

02:42:52 your right side right although being used to navigate as am i touching the stairwell yes because the town on the left yes because I was trying to keep as low as possible because there were steps

02:43:06 low as possible because there were steps and I wanted to make sure that we weren't missing the steps as we were going down and then let's continue

02:43:29 just pause it right that's coughing we can hear is there anything else we can hear they're just coffee nothing alright

02:43:40 hear they're just coffee nothing alright continue to grow at that last point that there was another noise what was that I think that was the gagging and mix with

02:43:53 think that was the gagging and mix with coffee okay now at this stage and again it's difficult to be exact how many flights do you think you've gone down I've got no idea any anything

02:44:09 gone down I've got no idea any anything else a would be I guess like okay did you get a sense that the smoke was getting lighter or thicker or was it staying the same it was the same um yeah

02:44:20 it was the same um yeah never the same okay now how far ahead well where did you think the girls were at this stage I was hoping they were just in front not too far away right could you hear them no there was no I

02:44:33 could you hear them no there was no I was getting no responses by that moment right well I didn't want to hear response I wanted them just keep going I didn't want them stopped just pausing

02:45:12 didn't want them stopped just pausing there we could hear in the sat in the background some hype higher pitched voices do you know what that is don't recall right and it does sound as

02:45:23 don't recall right and it does sound as if you're able to call your panting during that and able to aspirate reasonably freely is that is that right or or not well it's trying to breathe as

02:45:34 or or not well it's trying to breathe as much as I could alright they've still very difficult right it sounds as if you were able to breathe in and breathe out quite freely at that point well all the

02:45:46 quite freely at that point well all the way through I was able to breathe in and out but it was just the intake of the smoke was that was the case it wasn't clear wrong I say it wasn't it wasn't easier to breathe he was just not sure I

02:45:59 easier to breathe he was just not sure I think at that point as I actually sat down on at the bottom of the step there's there was a slight pause that I

02:46:10 there's there was a slight pause that I just heard there and I remember just sitting down and then thinking you gotta keep going and then I got back up away okay let's

02:46:21 and then I got back up away okay let's continue

02:46:21 continue we'll continue just put it on I'll just

02:46:47 we'll continue just put it on I'll just pause there we could hear a whistling in the background there did you is that something you heard or is that something that you denied I didn't hear that

02:46:54 that okay let's continue regardless it goes oh you've gotten desire they enjoy your coming it's just more

02:47:21 we just heard some noises from your

02:47:41 we just heard some noises from your children you hear what I'm saying to you

02:48:16 so we've heard quite a lot at this point air you're breathing the gagging of the coughing had it changed at all or had it got worse in any way at this point

02:48:28 got worse in any way at this point it didn't get worse see it's just the same old way right through okay okay and how long do you think you've been in the stairwell at this point for um in terms

02:48:43 stairwell at this point for um in terms of time yes not maybe eight eight minutes or so right I think gossip I begin to about halfway I'm at that point

02:48:57 I've got nothing to base on okay now I think we'll skip the next part and pick it up at 8:40 weekend

02:49:44 right now you've heard that last thing come girls come on follow my voice which is pretty loud were you able to shout and get enough oxygen into your lungs at

02:49:56 and get enough oxygen into your lungs at this point to be able to shout it was the same it wasn't easy you know there were about eight minutes into the call here ain't a half minutes into the call okay do you remember at that stage

02:50:08 okay do you remember at that stage roughly how far down you gone was it there's a principle I think that was not too

02:50:36 take a moment it's no rush

02:50:46 that would have been the time I realize motto is behind me [Music]

02:50:56 what made you realize that

02:51:08 she said that

02:51:20 did you how close to her when were you when she said that do you think that's right we could take her to take a pause here the last question I'll repeat it

02:51:35 here the last question I'll repeat it how close to her physically were you when you heard her say that do you think

02:51:43 think she was about maybe a floor above me I think then I still can't see anything

02:51:52 anything it's pitch black okay

02:51:58 and debug what is it about what you're saying here follow my voice that makes you think you're in front by the stage

02:52:11 behind me as well continue yes did you

02:52:39 behind me as well continue yes did you did you take a few able to take a few deep breaths okay okay so at this point

02:53:18 deep breaths okay okay so at this point you've realized there behind are you continuing to go down no your staff your standing are you I stopped for a bit and told him to follow me follow my voice alright and

02:53:31 follow me follow my voice alright and then I started making my way um you were on the way up at this point with yes right and when you shout keep coming keep coming keep going keep coming

02:53:42 keep coming keep going keep coming you come on keep coming you're on your way up to me tick to meet them oh yes I follow

02:53:51 okay Connie pardon don't ya LaVon right could you

02:54:05 pardon don't ya LaVon right could you see them at that point I couldn't see nothing could you hear them yes I'm not

02:54:16 nothing could you hear them yes I'm not sure if is exactly that point but I I heard my door how fast were you going back up do you think I was holding Darrell and taking a few steps I didn't

02:54:29 Darrell and taking a few steps I didn't know where they were or if I was gonna go past him or not because at some point they stopped she stopped talking come on

02:54:41 [Music] come on okay no we've heard we get

02:54:54 come on okay no we've heard we get another burp sounds like a gag but we also hear some screaming in there what sounds like screaming do you know what that is no I don't call that did you get

02:55:05 that is no I don't call that did you get any impression at this point how far they were from you above you I went about one flight of stairs up I thought they were just above me was my

02:55:18 they were just above me was my impression when I lost contact with them okay

02:55:27 let's continue render keep falling and cut them out yeah you could hear some

02:55:43 cut them out yeah you could hear some sounds in there from you I think is that gagging again or was that belching is both gagging belton coughing I think

02:55:55 both gagging belton coughing I think right now I should have asked you when you said just a little bit above the page in the transcript come on girls come on it's better down here was it but a better air below or were you just

02:56:06 a better air below or were you just saying that to encourage them it was saying there's the same I just wanted to them no keep them going

02:56:35 he walked it down keep walking down girls don't walk her down tiger now at that point we just heard an echo

02:56:47 now at that point we just heard an echo daddy maybe for the first time in this call is an echoing sound do you remember the sound of your voice changing in the stairwell

02:57:28 now number of things first of all you say again it's better down here is that again encouragement encouragement were you moving at this point or were you standing waiting for them to come down I

02:57:39 standing waiting for them to come down I think I'll try to make my way out you were still working your way up right and we could hear you panting and breathing with you breathing reasonably freely at this point or was this through the cloth

02:57:50 this point or was this through the cloth no it would have been food a cloth function I'm sure it wasn't freely and nicely going up waste more energy and you have to breathe deeper right so I think I was just struggling to get up

02:58:03 think I was just struggling to get up quick enough okay so coming to the end of this part here it is it would this be fair that actually you didn't identified no change in the breathability of the

02:58:14 no change in the breathability of the air at any any point in the stairs further down was better but not at that point not at this point okay right we can think pick it up then at 8 1140

02:58:39 this is my voice come on if you leave you have to cool down okay hold to the rails hold the rail girls

02:58:53 hold to the rails hold the rail girls hold the road keep common water fountain its record-low come on they're just pausing there could you could you see them to be able to tell

02:59:04 could you see them to be able to tell them to hold the rails or was this just still instruction I didn't had no clue anywhere and you can still can see okay and you can hear we can hear in the

02:59:16 and you can hear we can hear in the background some voices or not calling noises did you know what that was I think I might bend in okay did you hear it at the dam at the time do you think

02:59:28 it at the dam at the time do you think did you hear them at the time do you think do you remember being able to hear them at the time yes I remember there was some noises being made which is why

02:59:40 was some noises being made which is why I knew they were still making their way down okay right it's just I think it would be helpful to everyone if you

02:59:51 would be helpful to everyone if you could get the transcript duck before we start playing the audio because sometimes we're not actually going before it's gone off you're right okay if you can have page 417 please yes mr.

03:00:03 if you can have page 417 please yes mr. Chairman I will do that thank you

03:00:29 [Music]

03:00:33 you had a long note of voice at that point again can you help us what that is

03:00:44 it might be somebody in stairwell I'm okay I think it's perfectly understandable mr. gateway should be able to help in detail

03:00:56 gateway should be able to help in detail with some of this material yeah it's becoming apparent so we make the move on a little bit just continue in a moment

03:01:07 a little bit just continue in a moment got my voice right behind me but there's

03:01:18 got my voice right behind me but there's no car not moving fast now when you said they're right behind me that they're not moving why did you say that I stopped hearing it I think I don't doubt anomaly

03:01:31 hearing it I think I don't doubt anomaly okay what sense did you get about how far behind then behind you they were they were right behind me maybe like a

03:01:42 they were right behind me maybe like a half the floor right maybe a floor okay

03:01:53 No if we can just pick this up at about 1350 this is like to pick it up if we can at page 19 in the transcript first

03:02:07 can at page 19 in the transcript first of all where you say girls come on push girls girls

03:02:20 13:45

03:02:44 why don't they just won a free but the olden third tray just pausing those who

03:02:55 olden third tray just pausing those who are you talking to firefire right at this point where were you do think think maybe hey since I'm

03:03:07 you do think think maybe hey since I'm not sure okay but I was the time where I am I went up about flight of stairs I couldn't say anything and I'm guys you can see how

03:03:20 anything and I'm guys you can see how struggling to breathe as well but I'll I looked down and I saw a light coming up the freudian for just it did the rails and to solve I ran down and it was a

03:03:34 and to solve I ran down and it was a fire fire right just taking this in a little bit a little bit more slowly how long before you say what we see in here you say here did you first see the

03:03:47 you say here did you first see the firefighters so which bit well I just played you you've just said my daughter's is upstairs 183 but there on the stairs yeah you're obviously talking

03:03:58 the stairs yeah you're obviously talking to a firefighter yes you said how long before you said those things do you think you saw the firefighter well he was on the floor below so we're gonna

03:04:09 was on the floor below so we're gonna been long I don't think I would have taken that long to get here now at this point you could come down again so you'd stopped going up yes and then you started to come down yes how long before this point do you think

03:04:20 how long before this point do you think you had been coming down it wasn't sorry in total or to see the five her late since he went up a little bit yeah after that point how long do

03:04:34 bit yeah after that point how long do you think it took before you it was only saw the fire I was only one floor just once

03:04:39 once yes so two two sets of states was this the first time that you'd seen a firefighter it was the first time I saw anybody in stairwell okay can I just ask you look as though you're

03:04:51 can I just ask you look as though you're responding to a question because you say 183 my daughter so did the firefighter say something to you as far as you go

03:05:02 say something to you as far as you go yes yeah ask me the questions but remember know exactly what I think he asked me and where you coming from and that kind of information no you say he was on the floor below low

03:05:15 no you say he was on the floor below low you could you see him or just here at that moment in time I could see him be at the light in front of his face and that's Dustin what I saw when I looked

03:05:26 that's Dustin what I saw when I looked down I saw headlights and then also when I got close I can see you know right thank you very much can I just ask you then to get back a page in the transcript to page 18 and we

03:05:40 page in the transcript to page 18 and we don't need to play this but we can because we can read it off the transcript halfway down the page you say we're about halfway through I think are you telling the operator that at this

03:05:52 you telling the operator that at this point yeah must be did she ask me no or do you think you're on yes I think I'm

03:06:04 do you think you're on yes I think I'm responding right and why did you think you were about halfway through how did you think how do you think that it was just the Diamonds and the amount of spins I've had to do it was a guess but

03:06:18 spins I've had to do it was a guess but okay

03:06:21 so that says pick this up then where we were on page 19 after the question my daughter's on the stairs on the

03:06:32 my daughter's on the stairs on the stairs let's pick it up with who you talking to

03:06:38 [Applause]

03:06:48 [Music]

03:07:04 [Music]

03:07:12 I've just paused it there for two reasons first of all you can clearly hear you shouting does that tell us anything about how easily at this point you were able to breathe it was better

03:07:24 you were able to breathe it was better it was better yes okay so you were just beyond about halfway down you think yeah well I assume mate I think around the eighth floor yeah may or night floor

03:07:35 eighth floor yeah may or night floor berm it was many we'll start getting a little bit thinner thinner I guess it's pretty much where I met the guys up could you see any light any stairwell

03:07:46 could you see any light any stairwell light at that point not okay and there we can hear shouting in the background we were able to back up a second or two and hear that again if you want to

03:08:09 just pausing there what was that in the background we could hear do you think thoughtfully those firefighters right thank you thank you wasn't God I have no idea what she was saying to me at that time that was the five what I only saw

03:08:23 time that was the five what I only saw one fire fire at that moment in time and I spoke to him and told him stab my neck free and so under goes upstairs and then as he was going up I was

03:08:36 and then as he was going up I was following him did another firefighter grab me from behind and I think that's when he said to me you have to keep going down we'll get them okay okay

03:08:50 them okay okay at this point firefighter shouting was he still below you the first person but at this point you hear the shouting does is the shouting you said it was coming

03:09:01 is the shouting you said it was coming from a firefighter was the fight the shouting firefighter above you or below you at this stage I think he was just on my level right okay were you continuing to move down at this point very gingerly

03:09:14 to move down at this point very gingerly yes gently okay

03:09:21 continue pause there you say you can't

03:09:49 continue pause there you say you can't even hear them now could you hear them before there was some dialogue before yes and we can hear you breathing again is that indicate that it's easier to

03:10:01 is that indicate that it's easier to breathe at this point it would have been easier there yes right then continue we can just a at that point what were you

03:10:33 can just a at that point what were you doing do you think probably standing Wayne right don't know I don't think I would do much okay

03:11:02 what what was the matter I think I might be in a fire fire don't know I don't remember hearing that at the time okay just continue my daughter won it free

03:11:24 just continue my daughter won it free but you doesn't say yeah like yous about without pause sounds from that as if that's the dialogue between you and the

03:11:37 that's the dialogue between you and the firefighter yes he's asking you questions which flat which floor is that right yes okay now where was the firefighter in comparison with you as you above you all by this

03:11:48 with you as you above you all by this point remember probably below me below you yeah I think so hasn't gone to your level and yet is that I don't think so okay that would explain why there was four firefighters and I can only

03:12:00 four firefighters and I can only remember two okay at this point you're you're you got this dialogue with the firefighter do you remember how many others were with him or her no I don't I had I think I might block

03:12:12 no I don't I had I think I might block this one out of my head for some reason right um because at a time I can I fought I just didn't see them godlessness days because it was awfully

03:12:23 godlessness days because it was awfully four firefighters that carried my daughter and Helen's thought it down

03:12:31 right so I can understand how there was four and four maybe they come out of the landing somewhere and helped but obviously

03:12:41 obviously looking at this I supposed to fight fires twice hmm did you did you feel safer once you've been able to contact

03:12:52 safer once you've been able to contact the firefighters yes absolutely

03:12:59 okay let's continue

03:13:47 [Music] oh what's that Ramon um we've heard we've heard what I just heard do you remember where you were at this point

03:13:58 remember where you were at this point were you continuing down or were you standing still I think I was standing still vows towards the bottom of these stairs I had that moment right so you've gone below the 8th floor you think yes

03:14:10 gone below the 8th floor you think yes not definitely bloody 8th floor and I love it let's continue little too late take a couple of day train I kind of

03:14:22 take a couple of day train I kind of know there ask you some questions I'm gonna need you to answer me okay just

03:14:31 [Music] hurry up right just pausing there you are told to get your breath back and pen

03:14:43 are told to get your breath back and pen you can hear you breathing were you able to breathe at this point better yes so whereabouts were you at this point do you think I think that was below the fourth floor below the fourth floor thank you had you seen any further

03:14:54 thank you had you seen any further firefighters at that point no okay what was the smoke like at that point breathable breathable what could you see through to that stage yes well put my feet with their lights

03:15:08 yes well put my feet with their lights on in the lobby in the stairwell I can't remember there was some light coming through back I may be from just a light or somewhere else okay but I see the step set up time and

03:15:22 okay but I see the step set up time and there was a lot of water gushing right no we'll pick it up if we can at at 1952 we'll break there and put the pause and pick it up 1952 which is on page 23 of

03:15:35 pick it up 1952 which is on page 23 of the transcript you can just have it up first now you see it's not on the

03:16:21 first now you see it's not on the transcript that we can he say well done could you see them at this point I don't remember saying that but other know where that where that isn't in the

03:16:32 where that where that isn't in the transcript button right if I did say that is because I've seen them being carried out on this humid okay and I'm gonna jump ahead

03:16:43 gonna jump ahead and pick it up at 2219 on page 25 page 25 first please on the track on the screen and then we'll play from 20 to 19

03:17:09 [Music]

03:17:28 [Music]

03:17:31 okay just pause there we're on page 26 of the transcript you decided you need to get back upstairs is that where were you when you made that decision do you

03:17:42 you when you made that decision do you remember at the bottom it says on the ground floor or by the lifts no not by list but in the mezzanine type area right okay now at this stage could you

03:17:53 right okay now at this stage could you you could presumably could see all the firefighters could you in the I can look down and see the firefighters congregating in the ground floor okay right well if that's correct yes and did

03:18:04 right well if that's correct yes and did you did you talk to any firefighter at that stage about going back up no with them is there a reason why you didn't grab a firefighter and take one up with

03:18:17 grab a firefighter and take one up with you why do they worse all the way downstairs okay okay and then let's continue were you climbing by that stage

03:18:55 continue were you climbing by that stage Donna and you can hear you panting and I just wondered why why that was given that the air was was clearer where you were Navin panicking I think I was

03:19:06 were Navin panicking I think I was probably panicking a right okay and then you go on to say we don't need this but why there's Animal Farm and there's only a few here what

03:19:20 Farm and there's only a few here what mate why did you say there's only a few here because I miss your few yes where where did you see the few I'm thinking that was the ones I saw at the bottom of

03:19:31 that was the ones I saw at the bottom of the tower in the entrance okay right

03:19:40 this up page to the end it's okay we

03:21:03 this up page to the end it's okay we were you climbing at this point back up the stairs do you think I think I've tried yes how far up do you think you got not very far when you say nobody

03:21:14 got not very far when you say nobody could survive the smoke did you mean the smoke at that level you were then on or higher up in the building a high up okay and we can hear shouting in the background what was that I think that was the firefighters below

03:21:27 I think that was the firefighters below who were in the stairwell at that I think I said to to them there's more girls at the top that was if I remember

03:21:38 girls at the top that was if I remember correctly that was a couple firefighters carrying somebody out right say they're spicy yes acid is more and where you going something like that

03:21:50 and where you going something like that I see so these firefighters we can hear here are carrying a casualty down is that yes right I see okay and then she goes on to say we don't need to we don't

03:22:01 goes on to say we don't need to we don't need to hear the transcript the audio but she says have you got anything that you can put you can you move your jumper or your t-shirt up over your mouth for a little while did you remember doing that

03:22:12 little while did you remember doing that did you do that at this moment time I don't remember nothing that she said I don't think I was even listening right but just to put that in context yes if

03:22:24 but just to put that in context yes if I'm correct in my time in then my daughter and Helen's daughter already out at that point I already seen him got

03:22:36 out at that point I already seen him got be carried out

03:22:47 I was panicking at that point because on the way down and I said what we are all of the bodies I stepped on some our

03:23:08 of the bodies I stepped on some our chips tripped up on something and somebody grabbed my calf so at that time

03:23:21 somebody grabbed my calf so at that time I couldn't comprehend how the girls were behind me when I was the last person I

03:23:30 saw start thinking death

03:23:42 the bodies that I step on I stepped over it was my wife in my door

03:24:05 so that's why I kept chanting for my wife I wanted to go back up the stairs and find it I didn't know where they were

03:24:21 taken later

03:24:26 mr. Gomez we're quite near the end of this it'd be all right to continue to the end yeah let's pick it up

03:24:45 at Tim bossman page 27 at 25 minutes and 46 seconds into the core

03:25:01 oh just so you know is the last section we got to play

03:25:15 [Music]

03:25:33 there's more girls up there go where you go at the beginning of that lease we can

03:26:29 go at the beginning of that lease we can see and hear you say I can't breathe and it's it's very muffled sounds well you and you've gone up again into the smoke I don't exactly I was just having a

03:26:40 I don't exactly I was just having a panic attack I see okay I think then you say no where are you going there's more who are you talking to I have probably fire fire you don't remember nah I've been during the who

03:26:52 remember nah I've been during the who perhaps I'm trying a different word you ever have many firefighters they were when you were telling them that where are you going like I don't and I'm in lives to you coming down there's

03:27:03 lives to you coming down there's somebody but I don't mean them any more than that and then we can hear shouting in the last part of that yes where you're saying what you say at the top of

03:27:14 you're saying what you say at the top of page 28 of the transcript

03:27:18 what was that shouting background yes that was the fire fires on the ground floor on the ground floor yes right not

03:27:29 floor on the ground floor yes right not in the stairwell no okay so I was I would have been at the bottom of the stairwell in the mezzanine floor not

03:27:41 stairwell in the mezzanine floor not probably looked down to the ground I see at that moment

03:27:52 and then well we've just got a couple more pages to go in the transcript page 28 talk to the way down figure just restart and are you saying come on girls

03:28:39 restart and are you saying come on girls come on

03:28:40 come on did you have a sense of her place they were at that point my girls it my oldest daughter and and Helen's daughter had already gone out that was just in

03:28:52 already gone out that was just in reference to my wife and my other daughter yeah okay I had it was just shouting for the sake of shouting I have no idea where they were I just wanted to

03:29:04 no idea where they were I just wanted to see them walk down or walk through somewhere or carried out or something I just wanted something to happen yeah and we can hear you say come on my wife is

03:29:16 we can hear you say come on my wife is upstairs were you who are you talking to I think I shouted over the barrier to the firemen I see okay

03:29:26 I'm going to skip over the next page through 28 and pick it up at the beginning of 29 at 28 minutes and 28 seconds

03:30:00 [Music]

03:30:28 [Music]

03:30:34 at that stage you're talking to it looks as if you're talking to somebody who do you remember who you were talking to and I think that was a firefighter I was taking off well I think she was a fire

03:30:45 taking off well I think she was a fire fire that was taking me out of the building right during the process of what we've just heard were you being escorted out or were you standing still

03:30:56 escorted out or were you standing still in the building and escorted out right right okay and we could hit coughing then what was that are you still coughing because well what was the smoke like at that stage grokken

03:31:10 was the smoke like at that stage grokken BC too much smoke a yes but um it was still in your lungs the coffin is just the reaction

03:31:20 but the scam is you'll be pleased to know I think that is all I proposed to to play to you from the core the entire transcript stands in the record was mr.

03:31:32 transcript stands in the record was mr. mr. chairman and I'm grateful to you mr. Gomez and to you mr. chair for allowing me to go on well beyond our normal time but I thought it was right that we took pen in one one go it's very important

03:31:45 pen in one one go it's very important I've got no further questions that I want to put to the witness or need to and to be fair to the witness I think it would probably be I'm not a particularly

03:31:56 would probably be I'm not a particularly efficient use of his time so I'm going to say at this point that I've come to the end of my questions we normally have the traditional break at this point we do further questions but in some cases I've felt it was unnecessary to ask the

03:32:11 I've felt it was unnecessary to ask the witness to go to the room worlds other can I just invite an indication at this stage whether anyone has points they

03:32:22 stage whether anyone has points they wish to put - mr. millet you shouldn't feel inhibited because I'm doing it this way because mr. Gein is and I will ignore you one you speak to mr. millet

03:32:33 ignore you one you speak to mr. millet if you need to but if you don't need to so much the better

03:32:50 right do you mind mr. Khanna's we'll just stick to all them and see whether they're any more questions I'm sure you'd like to finish before we rise yes

03:33:01 sorry I've been ignoring them all the way through

03:33:37 I have one question for you and it's the question I we have been asking all witnesses at the end of their evidence and it's this in addition to the two

03:33:49 and it's this in addition to the two witness statements that you've given us and the evidence that you've given us today is there anything else about what you heard that you felt you smelt you

03:34:00 you heard that you felt you smelt you saw on the night of the fire itself that you think it's important that the Chairman should know well there isn't

03:34:14 Chairman should know well there isn't much more I can add that's hasn't already been said so so well however I think it's important to acknowledge that the NHS staff as well that evening were

03:34:27 the NHS staff as well that evening were amazing and in in our case King's College Hospital staff did everything that they could to help us and others

03:34:39 that they could to help us and others and also you know I'd like to thank the firefighters that were on the ground and helping as much they they could carrying

03:34:51 helping as much they they could carrying people out and doing all sorts but mistakes were made I think as you know contrary to somebody's believes there's a lot of changes that would have

03:35:03 a lot of changes that would have happened if we could go back there and change but we all know we can't change the past but we can influence the future so you know I beg you make those

03:35:16 so you know I beg you make those decisions and influences the future the decisions or better yet the lack of decisions at the time cost lice I'm not

03:35:29 decisions at the time cost lice I'm not really believe that a lot more lives would have been saved if things were done quicker we've discussed the lessons learnt yeah I've heard that before

03:35:40 I've heard that before there's been lots of lessons learnt in the past but we need actions we need those lessons actually completed and not

03:35:51 those lessons actually completed and not in ten years time you know people need to feel safe in their homes get together thank you thank you for that and thank you for your evidence and I just want to

03:36:03 you for your evidence and I just want to express our gratitude on behalf of the inquiry to you for coming here today and assisting us with our investigations we're really very much appreciate it say thank you no thank you and I'm very grateful to you mr. Kelly's you've had

03:36:15 grateful to you mr. Kelly's you've had an extraordinary and terrible experience and you've given us a very clear careful account of what went on that night as far as you and your family were concerned and you've given your evidence

03:36:27 concerned and you've given your evidence if I may say so with great courage and great dignity and we're very grateful to you for allowing us to ask you questions about something as personal as the call we've just been listening to you thank

03:36:39 we've just been listening to you thank you thank you thank you very much indeed and now it's over and you're free together thank you

03:37:02 well mr. millet that is no doubt a convenient point it is it is other work for us to do later on I think yes there are two statements which I would wish to

03:37:14 are two statements which I would wish to read him - the reckless well I think we might do that after we've had a after shooting a break yes yes well it had a very long morning thank you all for sitting here so patiently I felt it was really important

03:37:25 patiently I felt it was really important that we feel complete mr. gomez evidence if we could before we had the break I'm going to break the slightly longer than usual this time and we'll resume the

03:37:37 usual this time and we'll resume the 10:00 to 3:00 thank you very much