Graham Webb (MD of Repairs Direct, TMO subsidiary) gives evidence about his actions on the night of the fire. Arrived at command unit around 7am, became TMO point of contact when Robert Black left for gold meeting. Admits he kept no contemporaneous record of events, describes requests for resident lists and building plans.
00:03:17 you
00:07:07 you
00:11:19 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to hear more evidence today from those who were in the cordon from the night of the fire we are chairman yes we're going to start
00:11:30 we are chairman yes we're going to start with a witness from the TMO whom mr. Dermott Keating in my team is going to call before he does can I just explain for everybody's benefit something about
00:11:41 for everybody's benefit something about timetabling we had originally on the schedule three control room officers who are going to come later today because of the way in which yesterday went and the time constraints on us in
00:11:53 went and the time constraints on us in order to obtain the evidence from those witnesses you've heard yesterday we weren't able to reach the evidence of Theresa Brown yesterday so we're going to hear her this morning that has led to a knock-on effect so that we will have
00:12:06 a knock-on effect so that we will have to reschedule those three control room officers for a date to be fixed that as soon as we possibly can and we are in active liaison with the London Fire Brigade at the moment about that a tree fixing and I'm very grateful to them for
00:12:17 fixing and I'm very grateful to them for being so accommodating yeah well thank you very much I'm afraid these things happen from time to time you just have to make the rest of it yes yes thank you thank you very much yes mr. Keating mr.
00:12:29 thank you very much yes mr. Keating mr. chairman I'll call Graeme Webb please [Music]
00:12:53 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing
00:13:04 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr. Witt we'd like to sit down make yourself comfortable thank you good morning it gives it give to inquiry your full name please yes it's growing am Nicholas Webb and
00:13:16 yes it's growing am Nicholas Webb and firstly ants well thank you so much for attending today and accommodating us I know you've had difficulties regarding availables in youth and change those arrangements to attend to theirs we're very grateful and a few words my way of
00:13:28 very grateful and a few words my way of introduction if it assists you the questions are focused on the nights of the fire and the 14th of June up until approximately 8 o'clock in the morning I'm not going to ask you too many questions beyond that time period
00:13:40 many questions beyond that time period were sort of entering into aftermath no there's those are questions for a different time and Phase two in relation to questions I asked through design I'm
00:13:51 to questions I asked through design I'm simple if I fail in that task do ask me to rephrase then I'm happily happily do so and and lastly of course that we're going to be revisiting events on the nights I know you arrived probably around half past six in the morning but
00:14:04 around half past six in the morning but of any stage if you find matters upsetting oh you should have a break please just ask there's no difficulty at all thank you right and in front of you is a blue bundle but also on the screen I just want to turn to your statement
00:14:15 I just want to turn to your statement you provide us a two-page statement dated to 22nd of August 2018 if we could turn to the second page please and it's here the reference is there that's TMO one zero zero four eight nine
00:14:28 that's TMO one zero zero four eight nine six three and can we turn to a second page please
00:14:35 and if we can blow that out have yet had the opportunity to read that statement recently yes I have and can you confirm it as true to the best of your knowledge and recollection I carry this and that's
00:14:46 and recollection I carry this and that's your signature which is there and on the bottom of page two it is yes and lastly by way of introduction your evidence is going to it's not going to too long it's going to fall into three
00:14:57 too long it's going to fall into three broad areas and firstly background and experience they were going to turn to your notification in relation to the fire and subsequent attendance at the tower and then lastly your actions
00:15:09 tower and then lastly your actions within the cordon that night is that okay that's fine okay so our first heading is your background experience again I'm gonna deal with it briefly if I may but turning back to June 2017 you
00:15:22 I may but turning back to June 2017 you were managing director of repairs directs limited is a correct correct yes and that was from January 2016 to November 2017 that's correct we go back to your statement page Warren that's set
00:15:34 to your statement page Warren that's set out a paragraph one to two and you indicates a page one of your statement which just turns out now the moment
00:15:47 mr. documents director could we go back to page one please of the can have you indicated that at the time that repairs director limited was a wholly owned subsidiary after tml was that correct that's correct yes and repairs direct
00:16:01 that's correct yes and repairs direct limited by virtue as name perhaps on surprise and he was responsible for repairs in the TMO managed housing is that correct yes it was responsible repairs inside the home is primarily so people eat
00:16:14 the home is primarily so people eat perhaps or neither cupboards repaired or doors replaced those sort of things he's very much aimed or repairs inside the inside their homes and prior to January 2016 had you any working relationship
00:16:26 2016 had you any working relationship with Kensington and Chelsea and TMO yes in 2009 10 I worked for an organization called Morrison facility services and at that time they were the pro and primary
00:16:38 that time they were the pro and primary contractor for repairs in the homes of the Catalan properties in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea it was after that contract ended that the TMO
00:16:49 after that contract ended that the TMO set up their own subsidiary to do so so experiences TMO going back to 2010 and involved from January 2016 with repairs directly absolutely us in relation to
00:17:00 directly absolutely us in relation to Grenville tower we familiar with Grenville tower true your role with repairs their ex Loomis's I was familiar with it in the same way I was familiar with the other blocks in lis and the council's property portfolio yes but any
00:17:12 council's property portfolio yes but any direct knowledge of attending Granville tower
00:17:15 tower I don't think actually visited myself direct I went out with my staff frequently to company with our more visits just to keep familiar with how things were going I don't recall visiting any homes inside when four towers partner can I just turn please to
00:17:29 towers partner can I just turn please to the TMO and mergency plan which we saw yesterday
00:17:32 yesterday yeah it's TMO one zero zero one three eight nine eight and it'll come up in a screen in front of you
00:17:42 and once that's been brought up I just want to ask you in relation to that document which we'll see in a moment and were you where prior to the 14 to June
00:17:53 were you where prior to the 14 to June 2017 of the TMO emergency plan yes
00:18:01 we're just waiting that doctor to come up if we can turn to page 3 please and we see that the documents is the most recent addition appears to be 2016 the
00:18:13 recent addition appears to be 2016 the document sets out that a number of and colapse
00:18:21 colapse and in relation to during office hours were you part of the Cascade during office hours during office hours yes and outside office hours were you part of
00:18:32 outside office hours were you part of the Cascade I was not part of the formal Cascade in the plan now I wonder if you could turn to page 17 just as a an illustration please of the normal
00:18:48 illustration please of the normal working hours cascade briefly
00:19:02 we'll see the customer service center information received at the top of that page and we see at the left-hand side and your details yes and in the center
00:19:14 and your details yes and in the center Theresa brown and the rights Peter Madison yes and then it seemed to be working down so you would appear to be quite high up on that sort of tier of notification yes is that fair yes
00:19:25 notification yes is that fair yes there's reference in the document I may not need to turn to it off the executive team in a TMO were you part of that executive team no I wasn't who would be briefly would
00:19:38 no I wasn't who would be briefly would so Robert black and then these three executive directors one of whom was my line manager and who would that be Sacha Jevons thank you and we could see actually SATA Jevons under yes above you
00:19:50 actually SATA Jevons under yes above you that chart and whilst working during your time at repairs that limited did you have a Trane training in relation to the application of that emergency plan I
00:20:01 the application of that emergency plan I recall being briefed on it fairly early in my time in the organization not a formal training course by room that I do because I'll be briefing me on it and the nature of that briefing a discussion
00:20:14 the nature of that briefing a discussion yeah a discussion just looking me through the plan and in terms of the application of that emergency plan were you involved in any application at an
00:20:26 you involved in any application at an emergency plan during your time at repairs threat limited
00:20:31 mm not solid corner for instance were you ever in attendance at a large emergency perhaps involving a fire no I
00:20:42 emergency perhaps involving a fire no I do recall there was one into a very fire in Trellick tower yes which was contained within a flat I think it was in April of 2017 it happened in the
00:20:54 in April of 2017 it happened in the early hours of the morning and I attend I didn't get there to about Harbor State it wasn't it was a very much controlled in Britain very much smaller than the turbulence and they were talking about today so your your forgive me for speaking of your attendance was sometime
00:21:06 speaking of your attendance was sometime after yes the incidents that have been controlled by yes exacts and if we could turn please to page 23 of that plan
00:21:18 turn please to page 23 of that plan are you aware contained within that plan and will see it in a moment that there was a number of pro formas to complete an event of emergency yes the way they were part of that pact yes and here we
00:21:31 were part of that pact yes and here we see the performer for recording details of actions take a wooden with Casey TMO emergencies and has a section air responses initiated nine and then we
00:21:42 responses initiated nine and then we have us underneath at responses from staff contracts on sites we could go forward please to page 25 that documents
00:22:01 and try and blow it up it says copies of this completed perform and must be providers on the next working day to the duty officer ahead of repairs and customer services would that be you or
00:22:13 customer services would that be you or that would be somebody else no that would be the customer services team was primarily the call center so yes that's not me would go to them in order they could raise formal orders for any
00:22:24 could raise formal orders for any repairs to be completed as a result of the agency outs of importance so you're aware of this documentation aware yes format yes I've come if undoubted it's a second heading which is actually that events on the night and props perhaps
00:22:37 events on the night and props perhaps linked to what we just been discussing is records and if you kept any records of the modernize itself and did you keep a contemporaneous record of events when you were within the cordon when you
00:22:49 you were within the cordon when you arrived at night no I didn't and very soon after did you and make a record of your actions and within the cordon that nights no I didn't it was there a reason
00:23:02 nights no I didn't it was there a reason why you didn't do that mr. Webb um it in hindsight perhaps I should have done i hadn't occurred to me at the time I was merely trying to be offer as much assistance as I could and both on the
00:23:14 assistance as I could and both on the night any immediate in the days following what I was making sure that my team were doing everything we could to to respond so both in terms of for example there were lots of homes on the
00:23:26 example there were lots of homes on the estate look on the broader estate which had been forced into by the police as part of the evacuation and my team were very busy making sure that those doors were secure so that residents could return and feels - killed in their homes and their properties were kept secure so
00:23:38 and their properties were kept secure so there's a lot of other activities going on there was involved with I understand and if we could return back to your statement please than the autograph for it maybe and there's a little bit of lag between the documents coming up if you
00:23:49 between the documents coming up if you have got paragraph four if your statement in front yeah and it deals at your notification if you could try and just expand paragraph four so I'm very grateful you
00:24:00 paragraph four so I'm very grateful you mentioned that you had received you've been called several times by Theresa brown and you discovered that you had missed those calls after you receive a text message from another individual yes
00:24:12 text message from another individual yes and I'm receiving that text messages you checked the news yeah and you phoned Theresa back about 5:30 no sort of fair summary of how you came to know of
00:24:23 summary of how you came to know of Grenville tower file yes and when you spoke to Theresa brown at five past at 5:30 and what did Theresa brown say to you can you recall she explained just the
00:24:35 can you recall she explained just the scale of the the incident and obviously that the terrible events are unfolding and how we just needed as much support
00:24:46 and how we just needed as much support that we could provide to people on the scene as we could what did you understand that supports theme um Theresa mentioned as I recall that they
00:24:57 Theresa mentioned as I recall that they were rest centers and rescue says has been set up that her staff we're looking to help with we weren't sure how the rest that they would unfold and what support we might need so I offered to come and support in any way I could so
00:25:11 come and support in any way I could so you mentioned you offered to attend were you asked to attend or was it an offer to I can't recall where the Theresa specifically asked me I mean it would be more natural style to offer to come and
00:25:22 more natural style to offer to come and support and help and during those discussions were you aware whether the TMO emergency plan had been activated no
00:25:33 TMO emergency plan had been activated no I'm not aware I don't recall that being part of the conversation but what was cleared and I do recall that while Theresa was talking to me I was I turned yes I'm from the scale of the incident it became clear there was a much larger
00:25:45 it became clear there was a much larger interim that would normally be covered by the TMO emergency plan and my expectation would have been that the borough emergency plan would have been invoked for earlier and had you experienced of the borough's contingency
00:25:58 experienced of the borough's contingency management plan no I was aware of his existence but I had no experience on it
00:26:08 so you mentioned that you offered to attend and offer to assist sin in any way was there any specific role allocated to you in your discussions with Theresa brown before you attended
00:26:19 with Theresa brown before you attended no arrival at your scene if you can turn to paragraph five please rival at the scene forgive me
00:26:32 as he arrived around 6:30 6:45 something about aldia's and a paragraph seven you
00:26:43 about aldia's and a paragraph seven you say that you met Miss Brown at st. Clements Church rest center yes that was a sort of rendezvous point is that the position um I knew it was directly opposite the estate and as I
00:26:55 directly opposite the estate and as I think other people would have explained it was difficult to get to the error in the morning and I didn't up using a bike to come from Hammersmith to the area I called to read when I got to that area
00:27:07 I called to read when I got to that area because she said there was arrested cheeky told me it was a rest centre there and she came and found me and we went into the rest centre initially there's roughly about an hour from your time speaking to Miss Brown and your attendance is that sound about sighs
00:27:19 attendance is that sound about sighs about oh yeah and when you first saw Miss Brown at st. Clements Church did she give you a brief finger update what the position was yes I mean a brief
00:27:32 the position was yes I mean a brief summary of the scare the of the terrible events are unfolding and the efforts that her and her team were making in the rest centres and that Robert black was
00:27:44 rest centres and that Robert black was inside the cordon and that we were gonna go meet with him shortly afterwards and did she say well what mr. black was doing inside the cordon at that point I think from memory I think she explained
00:27:57 think from memory I think she explained that he was acting as ill as a support for the local authority liaison officer or Layla and any request that they had from the fire brigade or Metropolitan Police that we can help with you use a
00:28:10 Police that we can help with you use a phrase that on your statement at the point of contacts did you understand me discussions with Miss Brown that mr. black at that stage was the point of contact with the Leyland that was my understanding yes and will you at and
00:28:24 understanding yes and will you at and st. Clements with Miss Brown for a long period of time I was at a short period of time it was a short period of time and
00:28:31 and very soon after it is discussion your major way over to the command centers accurate yes actually round and I made a went over to the command center met with Robert black at the time you mention
00:28:49 Robert black at the time you mention arrived at a command unit and you say you mentioned you met with Robert black was there anybody else from its he mo presence around the command Eunice at that point not that I recall and did you
00:29:07 that point not that I recall and did you receive a briefing or an update from mr. black at that point amazing him at the command unit I think he added a little bit further to the briefing that Theresa had already given me he introduced me to
00:29:19 had already given me he introduced me to the local affairs liaison officer and he was talking about having to leave site Felice soon to to attend a gold command
00:29:30 Felice soon to to attend a gold command meeting I believe at the Town Hall and we established that I would that Theresa would focus on supporting staff from the US Centers and I would take over from where Robert had stood supporting any
00:29:42 where Robert had stood supporting any request from the local authority liaison officer
00:29:49 we mention the add a little to the briefing is really more detailed you can call now in relation to what and miss a black said no specifically I mean it
00:30:01 black said no specifically I mean it obviously that you could see this kind of events and the terrible tragedy it was unfolding and could understand the impact it didn't need to be articulated you mentioned there was a division of roles one given to you to heel and one
00:30:14 roles one given to you to heel and one given to miss Brown who made that decision we mean between us it was a fairly natural sense of order Teresa's Twitter Browns team were the
00:30:26 Teresa's Twitter Browns team were the team people who supported people in the community generally so they were the best place to be in the rest centers and Teresa was best place to support those I know with the background and operational
00:30:38 know with the background and operational roles I could support yes what they look essentially is officer Neely so we took twenty between us it was very simple conversation so at this points you'd arrived around 6:30 6:45 does a short
00:30:50 arrived around 6:30 6:45 does a short period of time between you being at st. Clements and arriving at the command unit yes probably closer to 10:00 to 7:00 7:00 o'clock our latest is that are
00:31:01 7:00 7:00 o'clock our latest is that are probably several clocks and ten plus seven something I thought over the years and and when you're speaking to Teresa Brown and speaking to mr. black around the command unit and having this discussion about division of roles and
00:31:13 discussion about division of roles and having a briefing in general terms was there any mention of any outstanding requests being made to t p-- did CMO know I recall know at that point your
00:31:26 know I recall know at that point your arrival just after seven anything specifically regarding and building plans Fanclub's I know that during the time I was there told you in the morning point of the morning and his overall
00:31:38 point of the morning and his overall sense though there were requests for building plans asbestos registers and also lists of names and what would I was
00:31:49 also lists of names and what would I was there it was more of what names had to add and our teams identified in the rest centers that could be crossed off of a list of people who lived in them in the in the blast and the terror cell I returned back to
00:32:01 and the terror cell I returned back to that in a moment if I may mr. black can you recollect the time he left to go to the goal meeting and that's a town hall
00:32:12 the goal meeting and that's a town hall I don't recall the exact time city we were there together for a period of time and then he left to go to the gold meeting I couldn't call the exact time we heard evidence that was at around nine o'clock when he left perhaps a
00:32:25 nine o'clock when he left perhaps a little bit before then but around nine o'clock does that sound about right it's possible so we've got a position where you've arrived at the command unit a little bit after 7:00 and he leaves
00:32:36 little bit after 7:00 and he leaves perhaps a little bit before 9 o'clock or 9 o'clock so a period of perhaps a maximum of two hours together does that sound like some you know if my recollection would be shorter than that but it was a maximum yes and during that
00:32:49 but it was a maximum yes and during that time you were together and the command unit can you and assist us and with what you were doing so having been interested
00:33:00 you were doing so having been interested look at OSI liaison officer and and establish there were no immediate requests I was doing a number of things I was talking to my team to make sure
00:33:11 I was talking to my team to make sure that my background in operations has taught me that it's always about the incident you mentioned is also about what comes after so I was making sure that I had tradesmen available to help
00:33:23 that I had tradesmen available to help with anything we might need so boarding up providing additional materials or you know anything that might result from that to make it so as time really on the phone to talk to people about that and
00:33:34 phone to talk to people about that and to make sure that my team were briefed on what was going on and how to how to deal with the rest of their day so you're making some calls yes and just a picture it in terms of mr. black he
00:33:45 picture it in terms of mr. black he probably was very close beside you is that fair fair description and during your time when you were together for this maximum period of two hours and did you observe mr. black having any direct
00:33:57 you observe mr. black having any direct conversations with anybody from the Fire Brigades I can't recall I know the the the little first layers officer spoke to us frequently
00:34:09 spoke to us frequently I can't specifically recall mr. black talking to anyone from the fire we go directly at that point so join us period of time that balelo if I could he was that phrase was speaking which you've frequently you as
00:34:21 speaking which you've frequently you as in the collective you you and mr. black yeah and what was the lay low saying again it was updates on the on the events that were unfolding as to say I
00:34:34 events that were unfolding as to say I know that during the mourning their request from the lay low for information in a chemical if they were before 8:30 or later but you in the morning they were requests for information from the from the lay low and just try and
00:34:46 the from the lay low and just try and said just revisit for a moment and do the best you can there was requests for information can you recall whether it was request for information when when
00:34:57 was request for information when when mr. black with you before 9 o'clock I know he had been requested information before I got there I can't recall specifically he was asked for information while we were there together you say I know you've been requesting
00:35:10 you say I know you've been requesting information before I got there what do you mean by that it's us mr. black requesting information I know that people had asked for information before I met him because he in his explanation of the role even performing he said that they've been asking for information such
00:35:22 they've been asking for information such as lists of tenants and residents so he referring to delay Lowell said that he'd been asking for information already yes and Robert black explained to me that the lady who asked you for that information
00:35:36 the assisters with what information when rubber black was explaining to you that a lay low have been asking for information but what information did he mention that we're looking for the one
00:35:47 mention that we're looking for the one that sticks in mind is is the list of lists of red non-residents mr. non-residents in relation to plans widows are a reference letter on your statement of plans but the mr. black
00:35:58 statement of plans but the mr. black mention anything in relation to plans in action I'm sorry I can't recall specifically I don't recall they do we
00:36:10 specifically I don't recall they do we know that you take over as point of contacts after mr. black leaves did he's at that point of departure do any sort of handover with you saying this is just
00:36:21 of handover with you saying this is just how matters are these are the things which are still outstanding no when you mentioned if you could turn to your statement at paragraph nine fleets
00:36:36 so you remain that the control unit or for whatever assistance I could and I took over from Roberts as a team or ponder Hunt point of contacts when he left about 9:00 a.m. good turnover leaf please to a gold command leasing the top
00:36:57 please to a gold command leasing the top of page two throughout our liaison with lfv officers the or bkc lay low on sites and i spent most of my time on telephone calls to t-mobile staff to liaison give
00:37:08 calls to t-mobile staff to liaison give briefings and to seek request information as well as a plan going forward and then you conclude I helped lfp with the information you wanted and showing that what we can see we're also
00:37:20 showing that what we can see we're also aware of the information from sites so was the position this is that you were in contact direct contact with the lay low yes and were you in direct contact
00:37:32 low yes and were you in direct contact with the lfb officers there as well no they wouldn't ask me directly attend to me that would ask the lay low and sometimes the label call me over to join that conversation if it's information
00:37:43 that conversation if it's information that they were looking for from the TMO the picture was contact with lay low worst and it may be that you were party to a three-way conversation with a lay low yes fire officer and you yeah on the
00:37:56 low yes fire officer and you yeah on the curbside have ever went into the command you know we can now move on please to paragraph 11 please hmm you say joiner
00:38:07 paragraph 11 please hmm you say joiner time was at the command unit and after 8:00 a.m. I was asked by the lfb about structure of plans flat layouts floor plans names number of residents and in the
00:38:16 the as asbestos registers I asked questions verbally where I was able to otherwise I contacted others mostly any assets team to buy the information which was mostly sent by email to an address they gave in
00:38:31 sent by email to an address they gave in terms you may touch upon us already but who made these requests for information so it would normally from my recollection the letter would be having a conversation with a fire officer and I
00:38:42 a conversation with a fire officer and I was I know they came to speak to me to ask for it or call me to join their conversation and it's after 8 o'clock so does a tough as an hour period when mr. black is there with you and are you able
00:38:55 black is there with you and are you able to assist them I've asked this already forgive me if I'm asking for about a second or third time we're here bill to assist at this stage whether mr. black was with you when these requests were being made ah I can't recall during
00:39:09 being made ah I can't recall during these requests for information via the lay low you mentioned it was it was evident from those discussions is this information being requested before is
00:39:21 information being requested before is that fair
00:39:22 that fair no I when I arrived Robert said that they had been asked for lists of residents before yes during information arbitary requested for I don't recall it being a repeated
00:39:34 for I don't recall it being a repeated request or any saying we've been asking for this before it was a request for information and we went I went and tried to make sure we provided as quickly as we could you mentioned that you were
00:39:46 we could you mentioned that you were trying to get information from others yes and we mentioned an assets team what's the assets team so the assistant regeneration team was headed by Peter Madison
00:39:56 Madison yes they held the all the structural plans for the building and could tap into the asset register and provide copies across the email to you know for
00:40:08 copies across the email to you know for the fiber gate to be able to examine so in terms of where does information would be stored you mentioned that that scene would have the information yes electronically yes and how difficult
00:40:22 electronically yes and how difficult would you anticipate getting that information to be normally as long as somebody can log in and if they're either in the office or they can log in from home they can access the data and
00:40:34 from home they can access the data and then attach the files and even send that across and in relation to those requests for information which was set out a paragraph 11 yes and you mentioned
00:40:46 paragraph 11 yes and you mentioned moving on to power 12 that you liaised with assets team and Theresa Brown was able to access the list of tenants and lease holders and she had a team of people who supported her yes do you know
00:41:00 people who supported her yes do you know whether that information was obtained in terms of list of residents as one heading or plans in in most cases the the residents lists that I was referring
00:41:12 the residents lists that I was referring to as I say work corresponding the known list of residents to the list of people that her team had already accounted for in the rest centers and they I know that
00:41:25 in the rest centers and they I know that Theresa I literally I used heavily throughout she came through Gordon talked to me we talked on the phone a lot to her team photocopy those lists and handed them through to the fire service other information I know was
00:41:36 service other information I know was emailed direct what I was keen to do with frequently requests I got was not be a choke point in provided information so I would give them the LFP email address director to send it to not
00:41:47 address director to send it to not reliant coming to me for me to forward okay which was my next question as the point of contacts did you have any involvement and relaying that information but your your answer is well you actually didn't want to your
00:41:59 you actually didn't want to your rationale was not to choke information you were giving people information exactly email directly yeah exactly I'm also familiar that sometimes during those sort of significant events mobile
00:42:10 those sort of significant events mobile networks become very congested and I didn't again what they're delayed to be the
00:42:14 the it might handheld to be able to to delight get it reach into the fire service it's a fair to say that one downside of that approaches that you may not be informed as to what information
00:42:27 not be informed as to what information has arrived with the L of P where does requests have been satisfied possibly was that information going to be sent by email or in some other form most cases
00:42:40 email or in some other form most cases it was sent by email the only the only case I really call being different was the list of names and the rest centers because it was her it was handwritten so they were photocopying piece of documents and physically bringing them through the cordon to hand in and in
00:42:54 through the cordon to hand in and in relation to their email traffic do you know what are you were copied in that email traffic I don't recall that my recollection would do was that I was copied into some of it but not all of it but it my instruction to them was to
00:43:07 but it my instruction to them was to send it direct to the fire service you mentioned in your and statements that you were at the command unit as a point of contact for about 15 hours and fax
00:43:21 of contact for about 15 hours and fax you you left the location at around 20 145 yeah that noise yeah that's right it is so you were there for a significant pair of the time beyond the 8 o'clock in
00:43:32 pair of the time beyond the 8 o'clock in the morning I've we discussed as a sort of parameter earlier on and so I'm not going to ask you any questions in relation to desert events after that period of time mr. chairman I've come
00:43:43 period of time mr. chairman I've come Sidis off at the end of the questions yes to ask but I mean that we have a brief I think it'd be sensible to give you a chance to yes check to thank you mr. Webb we once counsel's got the end
00:43:54 mr. Webb we once counsel's got the end of his questions or things he has it's not we normally have five minutes just you know and to check that there aren't any more questions so we'll we'll break now for five minutes I'm going to ask you to go with the
00:44:05 I'm going to ask you to go with the usher please don't talk to an on about your ever
00:44:07 your ever while you're actually will and we'll get you back in I hope at 22 thank you very much
00:44:25 right 2211 geez
00:52:19 yes I'm skiing one or two questions yes three impacts three
00:52:43 yes with you a few Thank You mr. Webb not too many but I'm very grateful for your and patience in relation to and there's three topics first topic is
00:52:54 there's three topics first topic is training we touched upon it before about training in relation to the emergency plan and can you assist us whether you had regular training in relation to the emergency plan no particular formal
00:53:08 emergency plan no particular formal training no I was briefed on it not long after I joined the organization I was aware that I had a role in the plan during normal working hours but as I said it was a I was briefed on it as part of a conversation rather than a
00:53:19 part of a conversation rather than a formal training yeah and that really is that is the summary of your experience in relation to training it was breaching at the outset and and no further puzzle
00:53:30 at the outset and and no further puzzle what the relations in terms of the emergency for them yes yes I understood my role understood where I start in the plan thank you and seven second topic is in relation to plans you mentions towards the the last party or evidence
00:53:41 towards the the last party or evidence Peter Madison had all the structural plans at the asset team and could tap into their asset register and in relation to this was this database
00:53:52 relation to this was this database called a keystone database yes and did it
00:53:56 it contain also an asbestos register this missus roads - yes I believe it did so on Keystone as well and that was that was a that interface into a number of different systems but yes they primarily sat on Keystone and was there any other
00:54:08 sat on Keystone and was there any other key information that you thought would be on the Keystone database in relation to building
00:54:16 not not working the core specifically and blasts em topic please is is this were you aware us at the night of the fire of any deficiencies in the building
00:54:30 fire of any deficiencies in the building as concerns fire safety no and did you I'll be not in light of your answer but did you are anyone else to your
00:54:41 did you are anyone else to your knowledge in a TMO share and any concerns regarding the building and with the LF be within the cordon that night no mister whether that brings the end
00:54:55 no mister whether that brings the end the questions I have thank you again for attending today thank you well thank you very much for coming mr. Webb I'm sorry we've disrupted some of your arrangements but I hope not too much no yeah anyway it's been very helpful do
00:55:07 yeah anyway it's been very helpful do your evidence is all part of filling in the jigsaw seeds and put it that way and so we're grateful to you for coming along to help us thank you very much and now you're free to go mr. chairman
00:55:20 now you're free to go mr. chairman before we move on to the next witness mr. cook mr. Webb go
00:55:29 yes you know nothing at all and before we move on to next witness who may wish to set a short break so we can arrange ourselves yes give me a hint
00:55:40 can arrange ourselves yes give me a hint do you mean 10-minute break I look to mr. millet who guides me in all these things
00:55:47 yeah yes could we have 10 minutes perhaps right well then I engage us say 11 o'clock please because it's very difficult to work so we'll have a break no thank you Mizzou and let the 11
00:55:58 no thank you Mizzou and let the 11 o'clock please
01:08:43 yes it's the minute mr. chairman good morning I now call Theresa brown of the TMO thank you
01:09:28 thank you very much miss Beth can I just say that we can take this as slowly as you feel comfortable and if there are only stages at which you would like a
01:09:40 only stages at which you would like a break just signal that all right yes Miss Brown can I start by asking you please to give the Chairman your full name my name is Teresa and fro and I
01:09:56 name my name is Teresa and fro and I should just say thank you first of all for coming to the inquiry and assisting with us with our investigations we are extremely grateful as you've just heard the chairman say if you need a break at any stage then all you have to do is say
01:10:08 any stage then all you have to do is say and we can take a break I will aim to sit I'll ask your questions for no more than an hour but if you think that's too long you need a break we could take a short break I'm going to focus on the events on the night within the cordon at
01:10:20 events on the night within the cordon at Grenville tower and there are other areas which in which there are questions but which we will cover at a later stage of this inquiry my questions are intended to be short and simple
01:10:31 intended to be short and simple sometimes they don't work out that way so if you want me to repeat a question or put it in a different way I can do that really thank you now can I start by putting to you your witness statement
01:10:42 putting to you your witness statement you provided one witness statement to the inquiry and that is at TMO 104 eight nine six zero is that the first page of
01:10:53 nine six zero is that the first page of that statement yes that's correct could you please go to page three yes and on that page we'll just wait for it
01:11:04 and on that page we'll just wait for it to come up on the screen I should just as easy to look at the monitor on the desk some people find it easier to use that than the document in the file but it's not changing it's not if you could have page three of that please
01:11:29 you'll see a signature there under a statement of truth yes over a date of the 21st of August 2018 is that your signature yes that's correct and have you had an opportunity to read
01:11:40 and have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes uh-huh and can you confirm that its contents are true yes thank you and there are no exhibits to this statement I think now I'm going to turn first to your career
01:11:53 I'm going to turn first to your career and your position as that June 2017 Ms Brown you are I think the director of housing for Kensington and Chelsea tenant management organization all the TMAO as we call it that's correct yes
01:12:05 TMAO as we call it that's correct yes and were you part of what is termed the TMO executive team no I wasn't you were not were you part of the team that would
01:12:16 not were you part of the team that would ordinarily be called out to a major event or incident I wasn't on the out-of-hours emergency rotor I was on the working outs rotor right and within
01:12:31 the working outs rotor right and within the TMO what was the what was your job cycle I was director of housing and I managed Neighborhood Housing Services the customer call center and the estate
01:12:45 the customer call center and the estate services team cleaning grounds maintenance contracts yes and a paragraph 2 of your statement if we could just have that up it's on page 1 of the statement paragraph 2 if we could
01:12:56 of the statement paragraph 2 if we could please have that expanded you say you were responsible for the things you've just referred to just now you what did you have the most senior responsibility for those things yes that's correct
01:13:09 for those things yes that's correct reporting in obviously to my line manager and who is that that's a chef Kevin Sasha Jefferson who did Sasha Jevons report to to directly yes
01:13:21 now you were a member of the executive team I think no I was you were sorry you haven't you you are in the role of well let me ask you this when did you start become when did you start as director of
01:13:34 become when did you start as director of housing February 2014 and you held that role until when and until I left in June 2018 right and I think at that stage did
01:13:48 2018 right and I think at that stage did you transfer to RB Casey I had transferred to RB Casey in the March and then I left the Jewish there was a period of the overlap yeah why for me and are you still as that now working
01:14:02 and are you still as that now working for RB Casey no I'm I'm not working kind of right now in your capacity as director of housing with the responsibilities that you've identified a paragraph two of your statement were
01:14:15 a paragraph two of your statement were you familiar with Grenfell tower and I'd been in a few times I didn't go on a daily basis and that wouldn't have been my role but I have yes I had knowledge
01:14:26 my role but I have yes I had knowledge of it you had knowledge of it were you familiar with the layout of the building yes yes I clean in that sense refurbishment I knew the layout were you familiar with the refurbishment in terms
01:14:40 familiar with the refurbishment in terms of I knew I knew how the building had changed yes yes okay did you ever have any training in what we thought is
01:14:53 any training in what we thought is called the London resilience partnership strategic coordination protocol and no I didn't because that was a council run and training party were you familiar with or did you ever receive any
01:15:05 with or did you ever receive any training in the Le SLP major incident procedure manual yeah we'll come to the TMO emergency plan shortly turning to
01:15:17 TMO emergency plan shortly turning to the night of the fire itself Miss Brown you indicate in your statement of paragraph four that you can't be certain about all the details and the timings
01:15:29 about all the details and the timings there
01:15:31 and that that is or was you say the case when you signed your your statement in August since August have you seen any
01:15:42 August since August have you seen any documents or records which would cause you to be more certain about the timings no I think in in preparing my statement I had I had made previous notes shortly
01:15:53 I had I had made previous notes shortly after the incident so I had to be looked at my phone records and emails in in doing my notes okay
01:16:06 doing my notes okay did you keep any contemporaneous written record of events or of your actions on the night when I say contemporaneous I mean as you go as you were going along no definitely I didn't do that on the
01:16:19 no definitely I didn't do that on the night apart from the information that myself and my team collated in terms of the register of residents and and those
01:16:30 the register of residents and and those who were safe and missing that would have been the most comprehensive notes that I would we'll come back to that just in light of your last answer though
01:16:41 just in light of your last answer though if I understood it correctly can I just show you a document that TMO one of TMO double zero eight four zero three two
01:16:57 double zero eight four zero three two that's double zero eight four zero three two
01:17:13 so I'll repeat it again TMO double zero eight four zero three four two
01:17:52 no thank you now Ms Brown can you tell us what this document is okay so this is one of many notes like this so after I
01:18:08 one of many notes like this so after I arrived on site I mobilized my teams to the rest centers and I asked them to collect records of anyone who had been
01:18:19 collect records of anyone who had been in the building the address the name household information and if people were safe or missing and they recorded that my team's recorded that throughout the
01:18:30 my team's recorded that throughout the rest centers and this is an extract of that and the purpose of this was for me to provide this information directly to the fiber gate to help them in their
01:18:42 the fiber gate to help them in their identified people right so is this example of contemporaneous records you did make on the night well I personally didn't make these so this would be my mic my team in the
01:18:54 would be my mic my team in the restaurant sir so yes that's that's not my writings no I was going to ask you that's not your hand right do you know who it hit do you know whose it is no because I had many staff in the rest
01:19:05 because I had many staff in the rest centers on the evening so this would be one of them there were several people you know compiling examples right did those members of staff in the rest
01:19:18 those members of staff in the rest centers hand documents like this to you and yes so so how I organized it was that there was there was a manager in each of the rest centers and they would
01:19:30 each of the rest centers and they would collect the information from me fini staff members there and then arrange for that to be brought to me I was at Saint Clement
01:19:37 Clement so that I could pass it on so they weren't doing it individually it was coming to him so you you are coordinating that yeah you wasn't you ate for it yeah yes I see okay and then when and would you collect them in some
01:19:48 when and would you collect them in some way so um initially they were I I gave them by hand to the LF bees I literally went to the command unit and
01:19:59 I literally went to the command unit and I was taken - sorry not that not the main cart command unit but there was another command command unit on and Grenfell Road and I was taken there to hand these and physically in the early
01:20:12 hand these and physically in the early hours but what I did do was make a call I mean obviously there weren't many of us on the site originally and you know I wanted to get going with this so we did it and handwritten form but I did make a
01:20:23 it and handwritten form but I did make a call to one of my heads of service who was still at home and say please make sure you bring in a laptop we need to get this information onto a spreadsheet and Tahlia with the tenancy information
01:20:36 and Tahlia with the tenancy information we already had on who was in which tenant was in each property right now if I was to ask you any detailed questions about these particular names and flats on this piece of paper would you be able
01:20:48 on this piece of paper would you be able to help me with the details to what extent well let's try and the first one at the top on the left hand so I was missing concerned
01:20:59 I was missing concerned Steve power yeah 12 or 13th floor and someone's written recorded next to it yes do you remember seeing this node with that name on it I don't I don't
01:21:11 with that name on it I don't I don't remember this this specific sorry specific one no so sorry can I just say not all of these would have been handed into the lfb in the early hours so some
01:21:24 into the lfb in the early hours so some of these would have come during during the day it's obviously a very long day so and they they would have been put onto to the spreadsheet and cross-reference with that so if there
01:21:36 cross-reference with that so if there was something that isn't I can see isn't clear if it's 12 or 13th floor we would have been able to cross our reference that and find the actual date okay no
01:21:47 say I understand from your answer this is not your contemporaneous note of what was happening in the rest centers and you've told us what these are is there a reason why you didn't keep a more well
01:21:59 reason why you didn't keep a more well any substantive contemporaneous record of what was happening I just didn't have the opportunity to do that so my role on the day initially was to go to San Clements West Center with
01:22:13 to go to San Clements West Center with my colleague Nick Nicola Nicola Bartholomew and I initially my what we were both doing was literally go around everybody in that rest centre checking
01:22:26 everybody in that rest centre checking that they were okay if there was anything we could do to support them getting their name and their address finding out if all their household was safe and and recording that so that was
01:22:37 safe and and recording that so that was my main priority initially as well as trying to get staff in picking speaking to Graham I was on the phone to so many people during the course of the night there wasn't time for me to write any
01:22:48 there wasn't time for me to write any additional notes the evidence was you know did you make any note or log of the events after the event I did because I
01:22:59 events after the event I did because I knew it was going to be important that I could recall as many facts as I as I could from the evening so as I said previously in the next couple of weeks I did make some more detailed notes of what I've been doing what my teams have
01:23:10 what I've been doing what my teams have been doing and that was backed up by our by emails and phone records that I'd looked at and do you know what happened to those notes and well not I utilize
01:23:23 to those notes and well not I utilize that they were kind of my personal notes and I utilize them to write my statement oh did you write okay well we'll have to follow that up with
01:23:35 we'll have to follow that up with somebody else then well before we leave it did you keep your personal notes and I have I have the money email I had some on email obviously now I've left in
01:23:47 on email obviously now I've left in ization I don't have any access to them but there was a word document I just it was a word doc I just kept a talent a tally of I wasn't just on the night so that document was you know cover covered
01:24:00 that document was you know cover covered the next few weeks and the things that we were doing thank you very much when you prepared your statement who provided you with the notes you're referring to I'd kept a copy
01:24:12 I'd kept a copy I had I had kept a copy I see okay you've kept a copy personally yeah do you still have those notes with you not today necessarily put in your personal possession would you object providing
01:24:27 possession would you object providing them to the inquiry thank you and but necessary covers of you know covers a long period of time now in paragraph
01:24:38 long period of time now in paragraph four of your statement Ms Brown if we can just look at that please and have that expanded you say it's on the screen yeah you you say I cannot now be certain about all the full
01:24:50 cannot now be certain about all the full details and timings but at about 2:30 a.m. on 14th of June 2017 I received a telephone call from Nicola Bartholomew TMA's neighborhood leap Team Leader
01:25:01 TMA's neighborhood leap Team Leader Latimer to advise me of a fire at Greenville tower a number of questions about that first of all did she tell you how she knew about the fire I think I
01:25:16 how she knew about the fire I think I can't be certain about this I think she said that she got a call from one of our resident caretakers I think that's how she'd find out yeah
01:25:29 she'd find out yeah
01:25:29 was it a long conversation so the conversation I had with her initially she was really distraught so it didn't go on very long because Robert black
01:25:41 go on very long because Robert black called me on my other phone so I knew it was him because his name came up and I said to Nicolette I'm gonna have to call you back so I ended the conversation with her and spoke to Robert and then after I'd spoken to Robert I called her
01:25:53 after I'd spoken to Robert I called her back did Nicola Bartholomew tell you whether she'd spoken to anybody else before she called you and I think just a conversation with it with the caretaker
01:26:04 conversation with it with the caretaker I think do you know who that can't take it was I'm sorry I can't I can't recall now where were you do you remember when my receive nicholas called I was in bed
01:26:17 my receive nicholas called I was in bed unfortunately that day I had my two phones in my back near my bed so I heard now you say you also received a call from Robert black at the same time and
01:26:30 from Robert black at the same time and that's what you say in your statement yeah and you say that he advised me that he was on his way to sight and I said that I would join him there similarly
01:26:42 that I would join him there similarly were you in in bed or at least of home when you got that call sorry similarly were you in bed I know where they were similar Tate simultaneous Chris oh yeah you're on the phone to
01:26:54 Chris oh yeah you're on the phone to base at the same time I'm sorry so I was on the phone to Nicola I could see that Robert was calling me so as I said I told Nicola I would have to call her back just had the conversation with Robert right apart from him advising you
01:27:05 Robert right apart from him advising you that he was on his way to sight did he tell you anything else he told me that there was obviously a significant fire anything else no I said I don't recall
01:27:19 anything else no I said I don't recall any further details I mean you know that in itself was enough to to mobilize me into knowing I needed to go and do something and you said you would join him there did you volunteer that or did
01:27:30 him there did you volunteer that or did he ask you
01:27:34 I can't remember the detail of that I think I just said well I'll come in I've spoken to me you know yes I've spoken to Nicola as well now you've put
01:27:45 spoken to Nicola as well now you've put the timing of this these two calls at about 2:30 a.m. when you do your statement
01:27:52 statement were you looking at anything to remind you that it was 2:30 or is it is it something you just remember I think I think this is where I use my phone details to see what caused that I I had had so you think you used your phone
01:28:06 had so you think you used your phone records yeah I think and those phone records are those still in your personal possession no I I don't have any information do you know who has got your
01:28:19 information do you know who has got your phone records and I would imagine exit my employees would have I I don't know how long your mobile phone records to
01:28:30 how long your mobile phone records to stay for so I I don't I don't know how much me no me just take a step back and clarify something when you do did your witness statement in August this year did you have your phone record yes sorry
01:28:42 did you have your phone record yes sorry yes I did yes so when um sorry when I did my notes I had my my phone records so I would have used those yeah when you did your notes okay you did your notes
01:28:53 did your notes okay you did your notes and then I think you say you used your notes to do the statement is that how it worked but you didn't have your phone records to do the statement but I would already be out in 2000 in doing my notes as far as I would call that's how I did
01:29:06 as far as I would call that's how I did it has anybody asked you to hand over a copy of your telephone records no not that I recall okay
01:29:19 and I think as you said earlier you don't have your telephone records no what is that wrong no I don't so I would probably just use my mobile and you know attract back well I was running you were
01:29:32 attract back well I was running you were telling us you had two mobiles in your bag was one a work mobile and one a private one that's correct and is it the case that you don't any
01:29:44 and is it the case that you don't any longer have the phone records for either of those mobiles I will probably have to phone records well I don't personally I don't have the phone where it comes from my mobile phone I don't know if anyone can get those I've never done that what
01:29:58 can get those I've never done that what about your personal well that's what I'm talking about I don't I don't know how you get that now 18 months on whether your phone can register what well we can take this out I don't consider bills ya
01:30:09 take this out I don't consider bills ya know
01:30:17 can I ask you to see if you can help us with two documents first of all can I ask you please to be shown TMO one zero zero three six nine five six page one
01:30:39 now that is an email sent by Robert black with a to agree to be sued in you
01:30:50 black with a to agree to be sued in you you see that yeah and the details are lengthy the names are not and you're one of them second yeah
01:31:01 of them second yeah third I think line of the list of recipients dear team we have a major fire at Grenfell tower the the fire brigade is on site and you can see that there's been some mistyping there I was
01:31:13 there's been some mistyping there I was told by Sharon our board member our bkc are aware and preparing Red Cross shelters hashes on oz way to the ground and you have spoken to that should be Therese that I'm going in Robert now I
01:31:24 Therese that I'm going in Robert now I just want to ask you do you remember receiving this email not specifically I'm aware of the email because I saw it
01:31:37 I'm aware of the email because I saw it and I have seen this email previously but I'm not sure when I read it okay and do you know where you were when you saw it no cuz I can't recall actually when I
01:31:49 it no cuz I can't recall actually when I first saw it I might have been in the cab on the way in I don't know I'm I'm making assumptions there that all right and you can see that the timing of it
01:32:00 and you can see that the timing of it looking at this document says oh two 26:45 there's also another email that I'm going to show you that as well at
01:32:11 I'm going to show you that as well at the same time if I can if we can please have this email kept on the screen mister trial director but also on the screen have ta mo 1 0 0 3 1 1 76 page 10
01:32:26 screen have ta mo 1 0 0 3 1 1 76 page 10 I'll give you that again t mo 1 0 0 3 1 1 76 page 10
01:33:02 yeah I think it'll be expanded for us both I hope so anyway apparently this screen is going through a deep sleep and has now gone to a deep sleep um I don't know why I don't know
01:33:13 sleep um I don't know why I don't know whether other people in the room yeah I think they think we should you can you see that one right none of you been cut off entirely we'll sort this house as we
01:33:25 off entirely we'll sort this house as we go and Ms Brown can I be sure that on your monitor on your desk you've got those documents on your screen yes yes okay yeah it's a looking at the left-hand one we've been looking at
01:33:36 left-hand one we've been looking at that's the one time - OH - 26:45 yeah if I can ask you now to look at the document on the right-hand side of the page that's a single page containing three emails and I just want to focus
01:33:48 three emails and I just want to focus you on the middle email on that page from Robert black 14th of June 2017 same list of recipients including you as the third recipient and the same text of the
01:34:02 third recipient and the same text of the main message made a fire at Greenville tower including the same type of graphical error so it looks like the same message but the time if I can show you that is it Oh 327 can you help us explain why one email is Oh 226 and the
01:34:16 explain why one email is Oh 226 and the other is a 327 I'm afraid I can't I know it's an issue that you were discussing yesterday inquiry I think it's some
01:34:27 yesterday inquiry I think it's some technical thing timing but I really you know I don't I don't know I'm not an expert no is it possible that in fact the email was sent at to you and
01:34:38 the email was sent at to you and received by you at 3:27 and not to 27 I
01:34:44 I wouldn't be able to confirm that would you pick up emails on one of your mobile phones I pick them up with my workmen
01:34:56 phones I pick them up with my workmen yes yeah and did it alert you when an email came in
01:35:03 I don't not particularly I don't I don't think that I would regularly look at my course I would know I was just trying to
01:35:14 course I would know I was just trying to relate the timings to what about the telephone call that I'm quite certain of my facts on the timing of a telephone
01:35:25 my facts on the timing of a telephone call dope it looked like it was the first one but III really really yes
01:35:38 first one but III really really yes sorry to trouble do you remember whether you had received an email from Robert black before he called you I wouldn't have been looking
01:35:50 called you I wouldn't have been looking at my emails I was asleep until I have my first call so there's no way I would have found it no I appreciate that do you remember after having woken up
01:36:01 do you remember after having woken up and having spoken to him then seeing that you had received an email would you know I didn't look at my phone is the first thing I look at my emails as the first thing I did I got chess got read
01:36:13 first thing I did I got chess got read days spoke to Nicola mobilised myself got in a cab I wasn't looking at Mahim and at that stage I was getting into action right we'll come back to your journey and arrival shortly before I do
01:36:26 journey and arrival shortly before I do can I just ask you one or two questions about the TMO emergency plan are you aware of the TMS emergency plan the most recent edition of which is February 2016
01:36:39 recent edition of which is February 2016 yeah are you familiar with it yes and its purpose I think is to govern TMS role in emergencies is that right and it's divided into two parts part 1
01:36:52 and it's divided into two parts part 1 and part 2 part 1 deals with the details of what should happen in an emergency and part 2 is specific individual details for individual properties under the management of the TM a that's right
01:37:04 the management of the TM a that's right yes that's your understanding can I just ask you to look at it please it's TM 1 0 0 1 three eight nine eight
01:37:23 and I just want to ask you about a couple of pages in it first of all page 23 which is a pro
01:37:36 first of all page 23 which is a pro forma for recording details of action taken with KC TM emergencies we familiar with do you have knowledge of the use of this document as at the night of the
01:37:47 this document as at the night of the fire I know it's part of as at the night of the fire sorry um we wouldn't have used this because this was the KC TMO emergency plan information not the borough emergency plan so we wouldn't
01:38:00 borough emergency plan so we wouldn't have been using this the scale of the emergency oh sorry that's not quite what you're asking but they may have confused you we've heard evidence well let me start this way first of all we've heard
01:38:11 start this way first of all we've heard evidence yesterday that the emergency plan that was utilized was the council's plan and not the TMS map do you agree with that does that mean that this
01:38:22 with that does that mean that this emergency plan was simply not used at all yes does that mean that this pro forma was simply not used at all looking at it do you think oh did it occur to
01:38:37 at it do you think oh did it occur to you that actually given the work that you were doing as you've described it might have been useful to use a pro forma such as this to record and collate information as as I explained to you
01:38:49 information as as I explained to you earlier I think my role was to really be out there do my codes in the rest centers it wasn't there wasn't they just simply wasn't time to be filling in
01:39:01 simply wasn't time to be filling in information like place on the day we're too busy trying to do the important things that matters at that time at what point in time did you learn that the our vkc plan was in operation it was obvious
01:39:14 vkc plan was in operation it was obvious to me as soon as I saw pictures of the horrible events unfolding it was just too major for it to be a GMO managed incident as soon as I
01:39:27 GMO managed incident as soon as I arrived on site I saw the lay low and the command noona I've worked in in previous organizations where where I've been part of a team where the whole
01:39:38 been part of a team where the whole emergency planning role has whether the team has been responsible for that emergency planning role so I was quite familiar with what that would be so it
01:39:49 familiar with what that would be so it was really obvious to me what was happening on the ground and you say in your last answer is as soon as I saw the horrible events unfolding I wonder if we can just put a bit more precision around
01:40:00 can just put a bit more precision around the timing of that what was it after you arrived on site that you came to learn that the council's emergency plan was in operation or was it before that I don't
01:40:12 operation or was it before that I don't remember having a discussion with anyone about the council's emergency plan being in action before I arrived on site but it was obvious to me from what I'd seen
01:40:24 it was obvious to me from what I'd seen on social media that it it was so significant that that would be the case did you look at social media before you arrived only as I was getting ready my
01:40:35 arrived only as I was getting ready my husband drew a picture of it and I looked at that briefly before I got in the car your husband drew a picture not your pics he's not that clever I'm afraid maybe he showed me a picture of a
01:40:47 afraid maybe he showed me a picture of a picture okay now so at that stage was it right that you thought this was too big for the TMS plan sorry is it that at
01:41:02 for the TMS plan sorry is it that at that stage that you thought this emergency is too big for the TMS plan well that wasn't my precise first thought my first thought was this is
01:41:13 thought my first thought was this is just so having DISA scale of it is so large I don't know I was thinking emergency plan or not emergency plan I think
01:41:21 think getting excited when you got to site was there any I think you've said you've touched on this a minute ago just let me clarify when you got to site was there
01:41:32 clarify when you got to site was there as you recall it any discussion about whether you should instigate the TMS emergency plan alongside dovetail with the council's plan the purpose of it
01:41:45 the council's plan the purpose of it would be confusing to do that it was really obvious to me that there was a lay low next to the command unit that the council was taking control of the emergency plan and our role was
01:41:56 emergency plan and our role was volunteering within that to assist where where you could do you remember whether any positive positive decision was made not to instigate the TMA's emergency
01:42:07 not to instigate the TMA's emergency plan now can I take you back to paragraph 11 of your statement and I should just say that we will come back
01:42:18 should just say that we will come back to the emergency plan later on but a paragraph 11 you say our role on site wait it comes up on the screen for you your witness statement paragraph 11 page
01:42:30 your witness statement paragraph 11 page 2 you see it says that our role at site was specifically to respond to requests for information from the police lfb lay
01:42:42 for information from the police lfb lay low Beck and RB Casey and to coordinate matters at the rest centers in that paragraph when you say our role do you
01:42:54 paragraph when you say our role do you mean the TMS role or do you mean your role personally I I mean my role plus cremes role and Robert when he was on
01:43:09 cremes role and Robert when he was on site and yes that's what that's what I mean by that so it included Robert black yes
01:43:20 so we'd been the people who had had some presence outside the command unit or myself in the rest centers as well right but do you recall what Robert blacks own
01:43:34 but do you recall what Robert blacks own particular role was at the incident on the night so so he was there before he was on site for me so he was the person
01:43:46 was on site for me so he was the person outside the command unit when I arrived that he was the person that continued to be there as I left shortly after I arrived to go to the rest center and he
01:43:58 arrived to go to the rest center and he stayed there at the main point of contact with the lay low until Graham had joined me and Clemens and I had walked with Graham over to the command
01:44:09 walked with Graham over to the command unit yes
01:44:16 no that's not sure it's quite answered my question like the question was okay my question was what was Robert Black's own particular role to the best of your understanding all tonight
01:44:27 understanding all tonight so he was the point of contact with the lay low showing the period when when he when he was there what time on his own and yeah okay
01:44:41 and yeah okay did he at any stage tell you that he was going to leave all communications to and from the lfb to you know the call we
01:44:54 from the lfb to you know the call we didn't have a conversation did he tell you that he would leave all communications to and from the lay low - you know did he have any stage lead do
01:45:07 you know did he have any stage lead do anything or say anything to leave you to think that he was relying on you to pass all information to the lfb or the met or Lalo's I know it was clear that my my
01:45:21 Lalo's I know it was clear that my my main responsibility was to provide information on residents that we knew was safe and missing and that that was directly to the lfb that was you know
01:45:32 directly to the lfb that was you know major part of what I was doing and he and he knew he knew that now
01:45:44 did you ever receive any requests yourself personally directly from the lfb for information during the night and I did and I refer to that in my statement 12 he had yeah we'll come back
01:46:03 statement 12 he had yeah we'll come back to that man and I know that i liaise with them directly around this information on on who was safe in this and listening right so the answer is you did receive
01:46:14 so the answer is you did receive requests directly from the lfb do you know I come the call how that started whether you know whether they said
01:46:25 whether you know whether they said collect this information on safe missing I think I just took that upon myself as I arrived to go to the rest centers and click that because it was obvious that that would be significantly useful so there wasn't a request I don't think for
01:46:38 there wasn't a request I don't think for that but people would have been aware that that's what we were doing and then I later the aides before me to give that information to the NFB this way I can answer that okay do you remember at what
01:46:51 answer that okay do you remember at what point after your arrival you first had no he asked you different way did did you have direct contact with firefighters at the scene or incident
01:47:02 firefighters at the scene or incident commanders at the scene and so didn't come and ask me direct questions apart from it paragraph 12 and when sorry of my statement and when I was directly
01:47:15 my statement and when I was directly liaison with them about these pieces of paper when I was in the in the command unit hunting those over round corner not in the main come on here
01:47:31 now I think part of the problem is we've got on the screen we don't have paragraph 12 we have paragraph 11 which is blocking up 12 which I'm going to come back to so
01:47:42 which I'm going to come back to so perhaps but these are thing from is to leave that there and I'll pick that thread up with you shortly let's go back to the chronology now you say in paragraph 5 if we can just go
01:47:53 say in paragraph 5 if we can just go back to that please page 1 of the statement paragraph 5 yep you say
01:48:10 it's barely alright yes sorry I'm fine okay now paragraph five you say I left my something home we've redacted it because it's private
01:48:21 we've redacted it because it's private information shortly after to travel to site arriving there at about 350 where I met chief executive Robert black and head of housing Support Services hash am
01:48:32 head of housing Support Services hash am soon who was standing outside the fire service command unit in front of tredgold house now first how long did it
01:48:44 tredgold house now first how long did it take you to get from your home where you were first alerted to the fire to Granville tower 50 minutes 50 minutes right so if it was about 50 minutes and
01:49:01 right so if it was about 50 minutes and you arrived at 350 that obviously means you left home about 3 o'clock yeah I know that that timing is correct because it's an uber record I know 350 is
01:49:12 it's an uber record I know 350 is correct
01:49:14 correct it's an uber record is it yeah I found that time because I looked up the over arrival time and you can tell from that so let's just take this in pieces when
01:49:26 so let's just take this in pieces when you did your statement and put the time of 350 in there were you looking at your over record on your telephone a record
01:49:43 over record on your telephone a record in your impersonal possession yeah have you provided that record to anybody no have you been asked for it no so when you did your statement is this right you
01:49:55 you did your statement is this right you did it from a record but you didn't provide to anybody else right I wasn't asked to provide as I understand it it was actually on your husband's yeah yeah
01:50:07 was actually on your husband's yeah yeah yes a notice to say you see if I can understand how this worked when you did your statement did you ask your husband for his phone so you could look at his uber records
01:50:18 so you could look at his uber records and check the time yeah he called the cab for me and he had he had the detail of when he called and runni arrival time on that become that's
01:50:29 runni arrival time on that become that's how I know that it's accurate so fine so that then means that you left home about 3 o'clock do you know what you were doing between receiving the call from
01:50:41 doing between receiving the call from Robert black about 2:30 and leaving home at 3 o'clock getting out there getting dressed speaking to my colleague Nicola I had to phone her back she wasn't yes had to
01:50:54 phone her back she wasn't yes had to phone her back and then I and then I got cabin made boy right in that telephone call you have of Nicola in which you just told us about what what did you
01:51:05 just told us about what what did you discuss a magnitude of the events unfolding that I was going in that she was definitely going to come in she was the neighborhood's sorry the team leader for the area she had specific knowledge
01:51:17 for the area she had specific knowledge of the area and we the residents well and she was undetermined to come in and see what she could do to help right did you have any specific discussions do you remember about what you were actually
01:51:29 remember about what you were actually going to be doing by way of creating information no I I think at that stage until we got there we had no idea about specific tasks that we would be performing I just think we you know
01:51:42 performing I just think we you know naturally we just wanted to go and do what we could do to have so when you arrived at 350 as you say and I think
01:51:53 arrived at 350 as you say and I think you say Robert Black was already there how long do you think do you recall he had been there for
01:52:07 did you have a discussion with him no discussion with him about what time do you rise when you first want let that when he first arrived did you have a discussion with him yeah yes we spoke to
01:52:22 discussion with him yeah yes we spoke to each other I can't remember the detail of that initial conversation but it would have been known around what when
01:52:33 would have been known around what when you had a discussion with him and you first arrived did he give you any kind of impression as to how long he'd been there minutes or hours were you wearing
01:52:44 there minutes or hours were you wearing anything yourself which would identify you as a member of TMS start yeah I had my I have a Timo identity badge and I had that on at the time I had that respond throughout the day
01:52:56 had that respond throughout the day because I used it to get in and out call him so I was continuing to going in and out the corner so I used that war in the rest centers right do you have that on as soon as you arrived or did you put it
01:53:08 as soon as you arrived or did you put it on after you arrived on my way and I definitely used it straightaway to get through the coordinates to get to the
01:53:20 through the coordinates to get to the command unit now in paragraph 6 of your statement you say that shortly after your arrival you say three team leaders yeah we just have that expanded
01:53:31 yeah we just have that expanded paragraph six three team leaders briefly joined us and words purse to the rest centre soon after their arrival then you identify who they were I think it's right there is it that hash a machine
01:53:43 right there is it that hash a machine went with two of the team leaders to the rest centers so what happened here is I had I had three of my teen leaders and hash and we were aware of the best
01:53:55 hash and we were aware of the best centers that were open and we d'ivoire I divided staff amongst those so I believe Angelique and hash went together to Lattimore Mandy went to rub people till
01:54:08 Lattimore Mandy went to rub people till oh and I went with Nicola - I definitely went with Lotus and clemont's right and who told you that these premises were available as rest centres and has told
01:54:21 available as rest centres and has told me that information initially and there was another resolution in Shepherds Bush green yeah so I organized from a member
01:54:34 green yeah so I organized from a member of my team to go to go there as well for when she got there what it wasn't really being utilized so she she moved to another resident did you talk to the lay low at that early stage initially when
01:54:47 low at that early stage initially when you arrived about where the rest centers were and I can't remember the exact sequence of events but I think has told
01:54:58 sequence of events but I think has told me that information now I don't know whether he got it from the lay low we were all standing in a you know very short space so I can't recall exactly but I knew that that information was and
01:55:11 but I knew that that information was and was it you who had overall responsibility for allocating TMO staff to particular tasks and yes yes now going on to paragraph seven of your
01:55:22 going on to paragraph seven of your statement you say if we can just have that expanded you say I spent most of my time throughout the day either at the
01:55:35 time throughout the day either at the command unit or the nearby Singh Clements Church rest center coordinating matters and it's difficult to be precise about these things but what percentage
01:55:46 about these things but what percentage of time do you think you spent at the command unit minimal amount of time perhaps made that clearer because I know that you know immediately I joined there
01:55:57 that you know immediately I joined there I went to the restaurant with Nicola I was there a good few hours before returning back because I I know I was noting directly with residents there
01:56:09 noting directly with residents there and what we did instead Clements was initially we set up a desk near the entrance so that we could make sure that we took information from everyone coming
01:56:20 we took information from everyone coming in and later that day there was a very kind woman who I don't even remember her name in the church who who allowed us to have some office space at the back so I used that as a sort of coordinating
01:56:32 used that as a sort of coordinating center to put all our data together and you know organize my staff so I spent the majority of the day there apart from when I popped back to give the
01:56:43 when I popped back to give the information to fire brigade or I went to see if Graham was okay or you know when Graham and I really a thing about important information and updating each other right and whenever you were at the
01:56:55 other right and whenever you were at the command unit was Robert black there no so he was only there till nine nine o'clock and then he went off to the Gold Room so he sorry can you just repeat
01:57:08 Room so he sorry can you just repeat that okay yes I'll make it more I'll try making specific for you so you arrived at 350 and Robert black we know leaves at 9:00 a.m. also during that period of
01:57:19 at 9:00 a.m. also during that period of five or so hours whenever you went back to the command unit during that period was Rober black always there yes yeah he stayed there as the point of contact for
01:57:30 stayed there as the point of contact for the lay though when until he left and granted cofre right when you first arrived as you say in your statement of went to the command unit did you see Robert do you see the
01:57:42 unit did you see Robert do you see the lay low there yes did you have a conversation with the lay low I'm sure that I did I can't remember the exact details clear but I would have introduced ourselves and yeah okay was
01:57:54 introduced ourselves and yeah okay was Robert black with you when you were speaking to the Layla's I'm assuming he was we were we were all just outside the come on and then you as I think say you
01:58:07 come on and then you as I think say you went off and and really set up the rest sentences you discover as you explained in a general sorry do you want to hide it I just say I didn't I didn't have a role in setting up the rest centers that
01:58:19 role in setting up the rest centers that would have been the army Casey's thing but I in terms of I coordinated the TM o staffs presence within them I think almost before everything it kicked in and fishery injures - all right so
01:58:32 and fishery injures - all right so setting up when I say setting up the rest centers I mean allocating TMS off to them and I never seen them work right during the night as a general matter how easy was it for you to be able to speak
01:58:45 easy was it for you to be able to speak to Robert black about anything you needed and I I don't think I well it would have been easy for me to walk
01:58:56 would have been easy for me to walk there and have conversation I I don't remember specifically talking too much between when I went to st. Clements for those first initial hours because I was
01:59:08 those first initial hours because I was so focused only on what I was doing that I don't remember having a lot of conversations but when I've come back to see the fire brigades new pass on information I would have seen him then
01:59:20 now turning to a different topic and mr. Chairman I notice that we've gone quite a long time with this witness yes oddly time for a break yes yeah well
01:59:35 yes oddly time for a break yes yeah well we would do to have a break run about this
01:59:37 this anyway and I think we'll take it now says that we can then gauge whatever in the next topic is without interruption right okay so we'll break now and you
01:59:50 right okay so we'll break now and you know asking not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're after the room and we'll resume at 2:00 o'clock like to give the option
02:00:13 right 12 o'clock
02:10:05 yes coach Johnson is proud to come back in please okay
02:10:25 yes do sit down all right having to carry on yes yes mr. Lee Miss Brown thank you for coming back to us I'm going to turn to a different topic now which is the requests for information on
02:10:39 which is the requests for information on the night now can I ask you first to look please at paragraph 10 of your witness statement which is on page 2
02:10:56 and you say that I'll read it all to you you say there are be cakes I'll be Casey emergency planning process was in operation a borough emergency command center Beck commenced operation
02:11:09 command center Beck commenced operation at the RV casing offices and then you say Grameen I became the TMO liaison contact with the Beck local authority in the A's on officer Leno was located
02:11:20 the A's on officer Leno was located outside the command center where he was the link between the bed out command unit he along with the fire brigade and the police made requests for information from the TM oh I've read all of that to
02:11:31 from the TM oh I've read all of that to you to give you the full context of what you're saying there and my question is does does this mean that the TMO was the main source of information on the night even for the lay low I sorry the main
02:11:48 even for the lay low I sorry the main source of information from on the night no we can't of incoming in from fire brigade from right you you say I think
02:12:07 brigade from right you you say I think my question was whether the Leila was was the point at which I'm sorry but the TMO was the source of the information which would go to the Leila good spot I
02:12:19 which would go to the Leila good spot I guess it depends what the lena was asking well let's just focus then so on the last sentence of that paragraph you say he and that's the lay low along with
02:12:33 say he and that's the lay low along with the fire brigade and the police made requests for information from the TM a yeah and my question is does that tell us that the TMO was the main source of
02:12:44 us that the TMO was the main source of whatever information the lay low asked for
02:12:52 well it depends what the team homes are well you've said you've used the word information there without qualifying it and under Allah identify and identifying what specific information you're you're
02:13:03 what specific information you're you're referring to and I'm just using your general word information there and let us ask the question again it perhaps a slightly different way whenever the lay-low asked for information was the TNA the only source
02:13:16 information was the TNA the only source of that information or were there other sources of information that you you knew that the lay low could get information from I'm sorry I'm really wouldn't know
02:13:29 from I'm sorry I'm really wouldn't know really understanding this I think I think you're entitled to be puzzled it doesn't depend on what the information that was being sought was I mean some types of information probably could only come from the TNA or primarily from the
02:13:42 come from the TNA or primarily from the TM and other types of information perhaps not but I think what she's saying there is there were requests for information yes Ms Brown you say in your lot I'll try again what you see in the
02:13:53 lot I'll try again what you see in the last sentence of this paragraph you say he along with the fire brigade and the police made requests for information from the TM a now let me try it a
02:14:06 from the TM a now let me try it a different way to your understanding when the lay low made requests of information from the TM Oh was it your understanding that that was the only place he could get the information from or did you
02:14:18 get the information from or did you understand that whenever he asked you for information that information was also available from elsewhere I think it depends what it what it was because you know some would be specifically for miles others you know information would
02:14:31 miles others you know information would be from other organizations or people on site
02:14:34 site well let's peeps I'm just trying to ask the question in a general way but let's see if we can be a bit more specific a paragraph 12 you say I recall information being requested by lfb about
02:14:46 information being requested by lfb about numbers of floors numbers of flats details of occupants and technical information such as presence of asbestos etc you see it you see that yes I do yeah now just focusing on that
02:15:01 yeah now just focusing on that information requested by lfb my question is
02:15:05 is was Robert black also receiving those requests
02:15:09 requests do you remember I don't I don't specifically know what Robert black was receiving directly because it's said previous that wasn't always that I don't
02:15:20 previous that wasn't always that I don't know when you say you recall information being requested by lfb about those matters how did those requests come to you by what means of communication okay
02:15:32 you by what means of communication okay so so perhaps I should qualify in this paragraph is that what I'm saying here is that I know that requests for those that information was made it wasn't
02:15:44 that information was made it wasn't specifically made to to me individually but just from discussions that I'd had with Graham and sorry Robert I knew that
02:15:55 with Graham and sorry Robert I knew that you know information had been requested from us this is more about you know my my knowledge I know specifically that I was asked about the people who were
02:16:06 was asked about the people who were missing and I was asked the specific information about this the 11th floor from them directly so I know my
02:16:21 from them directly so I know my colleague answered some of these questions Graham on Sat the asbestos question right now you say in the last answer that it wasn't specifically made
02:16:34 answer that it wasn't specifically made to me individually but just from discussions you'd had with Graham then you corrected that to Robert you knew information had been requested does that
02:16:49 information had been requested does that mean that when information was requested by lfb about these matters that you knew about those requests had been made to
02:17:00 about those requests had been made to Robert black so the floor numbers I think was something that we were asked about really early on I think would have been hashed myself and Robert there at that time so that is one that I
02:17:13 there at that time so that is one that I call being out so this is numbers of floors numbers of properties I don't remember the occupancy details specifically I wasn't there for the
02:17:24 specifically I wasn't there for the asbestos question but I do know that GRANDMONT said that so that that's and do you know who was asking those questions of do you know who was asking
02:17:38 questions of do you know who was asking the questions of for example Graham in relation to asbestos now in the or in
02:17:49 relation to asbestos now in the or in the last sentence of your paragraph 12 over the last part of that you say in the early stages most of this
02:18:00 the early stages most of this information was relayed verbally do you remember to whom in those early stages that information was relayed so no I
02:18:14 that information was relayed so no I don't remember the name of person I do remember somebody asking as the floor numbers I think that was probably with them five grade than the lay low with us I can't remember I'm afraid I can't
02:18:25 I can't remember I'm afraid I can't recall specifically the detail I'm going to turn to a number of things that were requested and you've given some categories of information numbers of
02:18:36 categories of information numbers of floors numbers of flats details of occupants and technical information about the building I'm turning to paragraph 14 but to start with if I can
02:18:47 paragraph 14 but to start with if I can you say and we'll wait for it to come up on the screen you say I recall that the lfb was anxious to receive information about people who might be in the building
02:18:59 building and you go on to explain that the TMA was able to provide details of the registered tenants lease holders and household members but didn't held information on unknown occupants and visitors now can you recall when you
02:19:13 visitors now can you recall when you were first aware of this request I can't remember when the general list of tenancy information was requested I
02:19:25 of tenancy information was requested I do know at the sense of the five go to thee I do know we we passed it on specifically to I think it was said
02:19:37 specifically to I think it was said Thomas Goodell I think I might I might not be hundred percent accurate about that but I think that that was right that the general tendency list was passed on to them I think this is also
02:19:51 passed on to them I think this is also referring to that information that we've spoken about earlier with which which was actually more up-to-date to on who was in the building at that specific time and who was missing and who was safe and that's the information that I
02:20:03 safe and that's the information that I was pricing on to the anything so I think the answer to my question is you can't remember when I was only asking a timing question oh sorry
02:20:14 timing question oh sorry why not when we passed on when we went when you were first asked no I I can't remember when the general miss was asked
02:20:26 remember when the general miss was asked for I know when it was provided now do you remember who whom that the London
02:20:37 you remember who whom that the London Fire Brigade asked for that information
02:20:42 for the general list of tenants to information in paragraph 14 you're you're referring to information about people who might be in the building
02:20:54 people who might be in the building I'm just asking about that do you remember who it was that the LF be asked to respect for information about people who might be in the builders so I was
02:21:05 who might be in the builders so I was having an ongoing conversation with them about providing them with these these pieces of paper about the missing missing people and that would have been I don't have a record when I
02:21:18 have been I don't have a record when I first passed that over I know that I started working on early house in the morning and I know that I physically went into the LFE van I would say I
02:21:34 [Music] can't I can't be certain but they they took a record of everything that I had and they will know exactly the time as of when I gave them now you say in your
02:21:47 of when I gave them now you say in your last answer I was having an ongoing conversation with them about providing them with these pieces of paper about the missing people let's just be careful here first of all these pieces of paper
02:21:59 here first of all these pieces of paper about the missing people is that the kind of record that we looked at earlier in the in the handwriting that wasn't yours about missing people in particularly but later on it was
02:22:13 particularly but later on it was obviously much more efficient and much more organized that this was when we didn't have a laptop on-site and we were doing what we could in real time to try and assist in any way we could later on
02:22:24 and assist in any way we could later on in the day we cross-referenced that information with the tenants enos and we gave that to the lfb throughout the day at regular intervals we updated it as we've got information from the rest
02:22:35 we've got information from the rest centers that was an ongoing process yes and that will be recorded
02:22:44 do you remember taking the first of those kinds of information information about missing persons from the rest centers that we saw earlier this morning do you remember who you were giving that
02:22:56 do you remember who you were giving that to yes in my statement I've put that so I'm sorry and paragraph 18 Chris lines Vincent Val no I
02:23:11 Vincent Val no I and I physically handed it into the command unit on Grenfell Road because I went to the main command unit with her and they said no little bit
02:23:22 with her and they said no little bit someone won't be around to the other unit now that's as you say in paragraph 18 mostly after 8:00 a.m. which is why I'm not asking you about then looking at the period the early period of the fire
02:23:34 the period the early period of the fire up to 8:00 a.m. but my question is do you remember who it was you were providing missing persons information to I mean I think it I think it was those people and I think that the handwritten
02:23:45 people and I think that the handwritten things were before before 8 o'clock I think the first yeah I mean I can't be a hundred percent certain about that I'm
02:23:57 a hundred percent certain about that I'm hoping that the Fire Brigades would have records that they had my name on the board they you know they knew when I was doing that yeah now in relation to just
02:24:09 doing that yeah now in relation to just going back to paragraph 14 the you refer than the second sentence to details of the registered tenants lease holders and household members who is responsible at
02:24:21 household members who is responsible at the TMO on the night for gathering those details so so that was information that would have been held on our on our
02:24:34 would have been held on our on our systems
02:24:35 systems so recording of tenancy details Hotel de Sales is on a system and on our CRM system and on the night that list was
02:24:46 system and on the night that list was extracted by and David Lowe below I believe in sent and sent to earth right well camp will come to us and documents on that in just a moment but in general terms who had overall responsibility on
02:24:57 terms who had overall responsibility on the night overall responsibility for gathering that information I don't know who was asked for it I know that I utilize that information
02:25:11 I know that I utilize that information so it is saying essentially ie I use that with the missing information and pass that on so I don't know who was asked I know that I was I was utilizing
02:25:25 asked I know that I was I was utilizing it and passing right who was you were utilizing it but do you know maybe the answers do name but do you know who had
02:25:36 answers do name but do you know who had overall responsibility for obtaining that information that the flower gamer are asking for I guess given that you've got a borough emergency plan and you've
02:25:48 got a borough emergency plan and you've got a lane areas the conduit then the lele would be the person who's making sure that that's gonna go into I yeah who within the TMO would be responsible
02:26:02 who within the TMO would be responsible on the night for responding to the Leila's request and obtaining that information so it would be the people who were there up at the specific time so that would have been Robert Graham or
02:26:13 so that would have been Robert Graham or myself if I was there in when something was asked right and do you ever recall being specifically asked by anyone at the London Fire Brigade for the specific
02:26:25 the London Fire Brigade for the specific information about details of register tenants do you know who else was asked if it wasn't you know I dunno who
02:26:37 if it wasn't you know I dunno who provided it but I don't yes and we'll come we'll come to that in a moment absolutely now a paragraph is
02:26:49 a moment absolutely now a paragraph is still in 14 of your statement then back to paragraph 14 in your statement which I think we've just been on you have said
02:27:03 I think we've just been on you have said the TNA was able to provide details of the register tenants lease holders and household members and i just want to see where that information did originate from can i ask you please to be shown first of all TMO one double zero three
02:27:19 first of all TMO one double zero three one one seventy six and this is an email I've paid within page ten of that run of
02:27:32 I've paid within page ten of that run of emails
02:27:35 there's TMO one double zero three double 176 at page 10
02:27:48 and at the top of that page we've got it up there now you could see this brown that it says was an email from David Noble 14th of June 2017 at 524 sent to
02:28:01 Noble 14th of June 2017 at 524 sent to you Robert black Angelique Noble Louise mahogany and Janice ray first of all can you explain who Angelique Noble is so
02:28:12 you explain who Angelique Noble is so she's one of my team leaders in the neighborhood team right and what about Luke Louise no Jean Tania she is rent income team leader right and
02:28:23 she is rent income team leader right and what were their roles on the night so so they were helping in the restaurant and you can see that's the subject is grenfell occupants the attachments
02:28:35 grenfell occupants the attachments Grenfell tower xlsx she looks like a spreadsheet and the text of the message is all occupants of grenfell has a 30th of May 2017 still
02:28:46 of grenfell has a 30th of May 2017 still trying to get live data to run looking for plans
02:28:51 did you ask David Noble for that information no I didn't do you know who did afraid I don't
02:29:00 don't and take I know that David Noble was at home at this time and he was just yes
02:29:11 home at this time and he was just yes and there's I think so there's some emails that say that do you know who is David Noble sorry who is David name um he was a not gonna get that title right
02:29:23 he was a not gonna get that title right but he was essentially a policy officer with us and helped with the Sierra Nevada system right and CRM could do 260
02:29:34 Nevada system right and CRM could do 260 customer
02:29:37 customer relationship manager manager or management okay and did he have access
02:29:48 management okay and did he have access to that data system at home yes I mean I think what he was doing was just looking at general records I don't I don't know whether he was specifically asked for information so I think you can't help us
02:30:05 information so I think you can't help us with what prompted David Noble to send this email
02:30:15 do you remember whether you receive this email before or after you were asked by the lfb or before you know whether
02:30:26 the lfb or before you know whether somebody else was asked by NFP for this kind of information at this stage I was in in the restaurant do you know what
02:30:41 in in the restaurant do you know what money refers to plans do you know what plans he was looking for
02:30:53 do you know who had made the request for David navel to look for plans I wasn't I wasn't now this email as we
02:31:12 I wasn't I wasn't now this email as we can see Miss Brown also went to Robert black and I should just say by this time according to Nick Layton's evidence they
02:31:24 according to Nick Layton's evidence they 5:24 cording to him he had asked Robert black to obtain a list of residents and Robert black according to mr. Layton has said or had said that paraphrase he'd drawn a blank
02:31:37 said that paraphrase he'd drawn a blank do you have any recollection of those matters do you remember whether Robert black contacted you to ask you to obtain
02:31:51 black contacted you to ask you to obtain a list of residence no no you know I literally at this time was focusing on what I could do to assist residents in insuk Lemon so they would have not known
02:32:04 insuk Lemon so they would have not known that I was fully occupied in that all right did you respond to this email in
02:32:15 right did you respond to this email in any way no I didn't I utilized the attachment to help us with our spreadsheet that I didn't respond to it so I can utilize it to help us provide
02:32:27 so I can utilize it to help us provide that life information to and one of you can help us identify the attached
02:32:40 and forgive me this Brown if I get this wrong but I wonder if we can just look at it can you please be shown our BK
02:32:51 at it can you please be shown our BK triple zero one four six two nine
02:33:00 do you remember and ignore the post-it note with the writing on it but do you recall whether this was the attachment to David Nobles email I think it's this
02:33:13 to David Nobles email I think it's this only part of it right
02:33:17 do you remember what other part there was so there's a much more detailed spreadsheet that has the tenants name
02:33:28 any mobility disability features the size of the bedroom sizes oh yeah yeah I think this I think there's another
02:33:40 think this I think there's another detailed book that does that all right look at that in just a moment because there's another email I'm going to show you but but just looking at this at the moment
02:33:49 moment do you remember well first of all do you remember opening the attachment to the email we were look just looking at I couldn't open the attachment on my phone and I didn't have a laptop in the early
02:34:00 and I didn't have a laptop in the early stages so my somebody ahead of service who worked for me opened up when he arrived with the laptop I doesn't bring
02:34:11 arrived with the laptop I doesn't bring so I didn't physically open it when did that person arrive with the laptop I think about 8 o'clock I see so does that mean that you didn't actually look at this data there's this piece of paper
02:34:23 this data there's this piece of paper until that stage I didn't because I was focused on it fighting the live data but I know that this list was forwarded on around that time right and can you just
02:34:39 around that time right and can you just identify the head of service who worked for you
02:34:44 for you Kevin Singh I have referred to him in the rest of my statement yes thank you No
02:34:53 No let's then look on to that the information that you then received
02:35:05 information that you then received shortly afterwards is another email and this is TM oh one double zero three double 176 at page nine said back a page
02:35:18 double 176 at page nine said back a page in the email run and there are two emails on that page I want to focus on the lower email which is sent by David
02:35:29 the lower email which is sent by David Noble 14th of June 538 thank you
02:35:48 that do you remember receiving that email I know that I did receive it yes now do you remember sending do you
02:36:02 now do you remember sending do you remember receiving that information in response to a request that you'd sent to David Noble yeah yeah he he'd sent me an Excel version that I couldn't I couldn't open that so I tried to open I asked him
02:36:15 open that so I tried to open I asked him to send me a word to see if I could open that yeah and if I could then to them back in this email trip to page five so TMO one double zero three double 176
02:36:27 TMO one double zero three double 176 page five this is bottom of the page your email to david noble at five 2805
02:36:38 your email to david noble at five 2805 28 when you ask him can you send us word doc and to nicholas is that the I meant Nicola Nicola Bartholomew right I was
02:36:51 Nicola Nicola Bartholomew right I was going to ask you about that are you sure you meant her and not Nicholas Layton
02:37:02 I don't remember having a request from Nikolas from Nikolas relating for any information at all so I am making the assumption it's Nicola because Nicola
02:37:13 assumption it's Nicola because Nicola was with me working on trying to identify there the the residents working with me in the rest centre so I wanted her to have access to the information right now reading it as Nikolas that
02:37:30 right now reading it as Nikolas that that prompted my question which was was this information as a result of a request by the lay low Nikolas Layton
02:37:46 now go back then to page 10 of the same exhibit
02:37:52 exhibit I'm sorry page and then nine of the same exhibit bottom of the page which we were looking at a moment ago your email of 538 those TMO one double zero three
02:38:10 538 those TMO one double zero three double 176 page nine which we were looking at a moment ago which is where David Mabel comes back to you and others
02:38:22 David Mabel comes back to you and others Robert black and Nicola Bartholomew Janis ray and Angelique no bald attaching Grenfell Tower shortlist doc and then the updated xlsx and he says
02:38:34 and then the updated xlsx and he says this is the up-to-date data use this one
02:38:40 now I'm just trying to identify what he sent you can I ask you to
02:38:50 please to look at that lfb quadruple zero two four three seven one
02:39:11 now this is the first page of a long document and we could see what it does or says this is Grenville tower address
02:39:23 or says this is Grenville tower address line one and then the tenancy type tenancy start reason number of beds person rep and then the full names contact details available number first
02:39:35 contact details available number first of all do you remember opening this document when David Nobles sent it to you at this time and seeing these details no I was just on my phone and
02:39:50 it's too large a document to view in that way so even though it was a Word document you still couldn't open it on your phone could you see it could you
02:40:10 your phone could you see it could you see it at all you even get an impression of the kinds of in the kind of information that David navel was sending you at this time I mean I knew I knew what it was and I knew how we were going
02:40:24 what it was and I knew how we were going to utilize it and I know that it was sent on by Robert you knew that it was sent on by Robert yeah I've seen an
02:40:36 sent on by Robert yeah I've seen an email trail where where Robert sends this data I can't I can't 100% say who it was to but I know it was just before
02:40:47 it was to but I know it was just before it right now just taking it in stages miss brand if we can admit you get this information at as we've seen at 5:38 from than David Noble you say you tried
02:41:03 from than David Noble you say you tried to open it did you see what I think you said you could see what kind of information it was you knew what he was did you try and send it to anybody else
02:41:15 did you try and send it to anybody else at that stage
02:41:18 I don't think I did I was focused on provide I'm trying to ascertain through all the teams in the West Center the live data that was really important because this is data on our system for
02:41:31 because this is data on our system for who is on who is our tenant at a moment in time which I believe this is up to date as possible but it wasn't giving us information about who was actually there
02:41:43 information about who was actually there on the night and who was safe and missing and I was concentrating on that information from the rest centers because that was in the sense more helpful than relying on data that isn't
02:41:56 helpful than relying on data that isn't really telling you if someone's in the building on the night but I'm not saying it is an important information I'm just saying that it's what I was concentrating on I'm trying to do at this time so I think the answer to my
02:42:11 this time so I think the answer to my question is no you didn't try and send it to anybody else did you ask David Noble to send it to anybody else so you is there a reason why you didn't
02:42:23 so you is there a reason why you didn't ask him to send it for example to Robert black I think he did I send it to I didn't I didn't ask him to do that
02:42:35 didn't I didn't ask him to do that because I didn't know that anyone was asking for it right but you could see from the email the Robert black had received it but you couldn't open it did you make an assumption about at that
02:42:46 you make an assumption about at that time where that Robert black could open it and read it I I did assume that he would have sent it on but yeah so you
02:42:58 would have sent it on but yeah so you assumed he would send it on who did you assume he would send it on to well actually to be fair I didn't know who'd ask for it I knew they received it so I think I make the assumption if I'm
02:43:09 think I make the assumption if I'm really right that if someone had needed it that he would have been able to provide it because he had it is the assumption I'm making did it occur to you at the time just to
02:43:20 did it occur to you at the time just to send it or try to send it to the lay low Nick Layton now it is for the reasons that I've I've I've given no and just so
02:43:34 that I've I've I've given no and just so I'm clear could you just explain those reasons again okay because because I was focusing on providing information that gave real-time information who was in the building that night against these
02:43:47 the building that night against these addresses who was safe and who was missing so that would actually you know detail if there were friends or visitors or if people weren't there so you know
02:44:00 or if people weren't there so you know we found on the night some people were abroad so you know that that real-time data was in a way you know more helpful did it occur to you that the London Fire
02:44:12 did it occur to you that the London Fire Brigade would find this information helpful and yes of course so I wish that we'd sent her but in terms of its significance that we were providing them
02:44:24 significance that we were providing them the other more detailed more live this person safe this is missing together with the information that they were already sit receiving directly from phone calls to them I was concentrating
02:44:36 phone calls to them I was concentrating on that and I'm sorry if that was the wrong choice but that is what I was doing at the time I understand that
02:44:45 did you do anything to follow up to find out whether the lfb had received this information I know that I know no I didn't because I was concentrating on
02:44:56 didn't because I was concentrating on the other things I know that they did receive it and I know that what I did I organized with my teams is that we were comparing our life data with this and we
02:45:07 comparing our life data with this and we were we sorry whether the words we tallied it so we had this data and then we had our live data comments on about whether the person was in the property
02:45:18 whether the person was in the property or safe or missing and we had tabs that showed that so that Elif we could have that complete information and understand what that position was we also utilize that data to work with our colleagues
02:45:30 that data to work with our colleagues and in the council at our bkc to assist in you know temporary hasn't those people and that was all stuff that was you know going on live actions that I was involved in and trying to make up
02:45:43 was involved in and trying to make up for that's what I did you know whether any of the other recipients of this email for example Robert black we're assuming that you were going to send
02:45:54 assuming that you were going to send this information to the Laila did you know at the time now did did you know at
02:46:08 know at the time now did did you know at the time that Nick Nicholas Layton had been pressing Robert black for this kind of enjoy Clemens west center for a considerable amount of hours really
02:46:21 considerable amount of hours really trying to do the best I could I didn't know what was happening all right let's take a moment
02:46:34 it's Brown we could take a break if you like no no no you just take it that's alright just take a moment to set yourself down I'm sorry I I don't know
02:46:46 yourself down I'm sorry I I don't know what Robert was asked I wasn't I wasn't
02:46:56 after you heard I'm so sorry Oh away right after you had left the command unit after your initial arrival and went
02:47:07 unit after your initial arrival and went to work at the rest centers do you remember having any communication at all with Nick Layton no no I don't I don't
02:47:21 with Nick Layton no no I don't I don't he was the first yes he was he but he left the sites to help you he left the site at seven o'clock in the morning 7 a.m. and a chap called my
02:47:32 morning 7 a.m. and a chap called my crumbled and took over as lay low at that stage and I don't I don't call any specific conversations with him I would have had now moving ahead on this topic
02:47:51 have had now moving ahead on this topic in the chronology we know that you were copied into an Eaton email I think you've touched on it in your evidence where this information was sent to the lfb it's TMO 1 double 0 3 double 176 at
02:48:07 lfb it's TMO 1 double 0 3 double 176 at page 4 I can ask you please to be shown that
02:48:19 and yeah this is it is the email which starts the third of the way down the page from Robert black 14th of June 2017
02:48:30 page from Robert black 14th of June 2017 at 7:56 to Tom to London 505 dot-gov UK and its copy to you you see that yeah
02:48:42 and its copy to you you see that yeah and forward grenfell residence yeah grenfell tower shortlist Grenfell tower updated and then he says hi from Theresa and getting a hard copy and then
02:48:56 and getting a hard copy and then underneath it we can see what is forwarded and it is the David noble email to Robert black and you that
02:49:08 email to Robert black and you that bearing the time mark of oh five 38 we looked at earlier and just said to help you it says this is the up to date data use this one now do you remember
02:49:22 use this one now do you remember receiving I think you do remember receiving the email from Robert black and him emailing it on to Thomas good
02:49:33 and him emailing it on to Thomas good all you can see that that's that yeah yeah can you help me when Robert black says to the far Brigade hi from Theresa
02:49:44 says to the far Brigade hi from Theresa and getting a hard copy what does he can you explain from Theresa no I can't explain that I don't understand why it's from me because it's actually from David
02:49:57 from me because it's actually from David and I've not inputted anything different to that so I don't really understand that comment I'm afraid now can you help us with why took from what appears to be
02:50:12 us with why took from what appears to be Oh 5:30 8 a.m. until what appears to be o 7:56 a.m. 4 David Nobles message and attachments to
02:50:25 David Nobles message and attachments to be sent to the fire brigade bouncing that any more than you asked me before I I don't I don't really notice that
02:50:39 when you saw the email from Robert black - the fire brigade into which you were copied did it occur to you at that point
02:50:50 copied did it occur to you at that point that the fire brigade had asked for this information no because as I say it's still at this point I'm dealing with
02:51:01 still at this point I'm dealing with trying to get the live data I wouldn't concentrate it on that email I may not have even seen it until later huh I can't tell you 100% when I saw
02:51:13 huh I can't tell you 100% when I saw that I just know it was then right now let's turn to my crumble the lay low do
02:51:26 let's turn to my crumble the lay low do you remember being introduced to him at some point yes I can't tell you what time but I do remember having some conversation with him at some point now
02:51:37 conversation with him at some point now he says in his witness statement
02:51:46 at or after a meeting which started at 8:20 he asked you for a list of all the occupants of Grenville tower do you
02:51:59 occupants of Grenville tower do you remember that I don't specifically
02:52:09 you know me at what time because I got his witness statement so let me try and do a bit more specific with that
02:52:28 let's take a white a time frame before 9 a.m.
02:52:31 a.m. do you remember Mike Rumble the then lay low asking you for a list of all occupants of Grenfell tower do you
02:52:45 occupants of Grenfell tower do you remember telling my crumble that or having a conversation with him about the fact that at just before 8 o'clock Robert black had sent a list of
02:52:57 Robert black had sent a list of residence to the NFB remember I was only fleetingly near my crumble and I'd gone
02:53:13 fleetingly near my crumble and I'd gone back to take Graham when Graham arrived and I think I think probably that was the first time I'd gone back since I died
02:53:25 ok now mr. rumble also says in his statement and for the record this is this is paragraph in episode 13 point 2 he says before 11 o'clock in the morning
02:53:38 he says before 11 o'clock in the morning but at some point before 11 o'clock in the morning he says that he was handed a list of all the tenants of grenfell tower by you Theresa brown yeah so I think what did happen is that my PA came
02:53:53 think what did happen is that my PA came to site with a printed version of that list that had been sent before someone had asked her I don't remember if it was meant for me but somebody had asked her to bring that to site I think there's
02:54:05 to bring that to site I think there's some reference to Robert's saying hard copy coming Johnny dick it did come she brought it to site and she would have given it to me and I would have handed it over right I suspect I'm absolutely
02:54:17 it over right I suspect I'm absolutely not hundred percent sure on that but that's yes the request for hard copy is it's actually a statement getting a hard
02:54:29 it's actually a statement getting a hard copy is contained in the email we just we can see on the screen still his email at 7:56 to the lfb so does that mean that it took up to
02:54:43 does that mean that it took up to further three hours to get hold of a hard copy at the list of residents I don't I don't know specifically I can't remember whether like I said whether I was asking for that information or
02:54:56 was asking for that information or whether for that no he says that you brought to him a hard copy a three sighs
02:55:09 brought to him a hard copy a three sighs computer printout is that accord with your recollection before the time when
02:55:27 your recollection before the time when your PA brought you what you've described as the printed version was there a time when you could view this infant that information the the full list of residents and the details about
02:55:38 list of residents and the details about them on a laptop so this is by 11:00 so so yes definitely by this time Karen was on site he was on site quite early
02:55:49 site quite early he was have been comparing the he would've had that list and be utilizing that information to plate the missing sorry to overlay the missing information
02:56:01 sorry to overlay the missing information as we've discussed before so would I've looked at in detail I was I was I was relying on him putting all the in compiling all the information together while I was doing other things to see if
02:56:14 while I was doing other things to see if I can break that down a bit and I'm sorry to grind into some detail but Karin is is is this right the person who brought the laptop to site yes right when was that
02:56:25 when was that I think it was about 8 o'clock and at that stage did you use the laptop open it up and look at the information
02:56:37 open it up and look at the information that David Nobel had sent to you earlier in the night no Kevin utilize the information to start our spreadsheet so that was the basis that we started on we had the attendance the tenancy
02:56:48 had the attendance the tenancy information property bedroom size and then we added the columns with the live data understand at the stage at which you first could see the list of
02:57:00 you first could see the list of residence on Karen's laptop was that long after 8:00 a.m. or at about 8:00 a.m. I was doing a number of other
02:57:16 a.m. I was doing a number of other things and I'm not sure how much time I would have spent looking at the laptop and that and that data on it I I was trusting a really competent opposite put that information together so did you
02:57:34 that information together so did you know at that time that this was still information that was information that the lele was after no because I would be in I was definitely in some Clements
02:57:50 in I was definitely in some Clements with with Kiera
02:57:54 did you have a discussion with Mike Rumble about this information after you'd seen the information on Karen's laptop but before you received the hardcopy call right now turning to if I
02:58:17 hardcopy call right now turning to if I can the the bill details about the building
02:58:20 building can I ask you please to get back to paragraph 12 of your statement and I'll just ask you to refresh your memory of
02:58:32 just ask you to refresh your memory of what that says that's page 2 of your witness statement so we're in t mo 1 zero zero four eight nine six zero
02:58:50 and you say there that you requested lfb requested information about the building
02:59:04 requested information about the building technical information such as the presence of asbestos etc that's what you say turning to that kind of information again
02:59:14 again do you recall who requested that no no I don't know as I explained before this is the collective information that myself and colleagues were asked for I don't
02:59:25 and colleagues were asked for I don't remember being specifically asked her about the asbestos information I absolutely know that gram Webb provided that information so Graham and I were you know updating each other and he told
02:59:40 you know updating each other and he told us a little bit about that earlier this morning and his evidence do you remember there being a particular concern on the night about asbestos and do you remember what technical information about the
02:59:52 what technical information about the building other than the presence of asbestos you were asked for
03:00:06 I'm sorry I don't but it may well not is most likely that it wasn't legal was asked right can I ask you please then to go back to
03:00:17 can I ask you please then to go back to an email we looked at shortly a little bit before TMO one double zero three double 176 at page 10 this is the email of 524 from David Noble to you and
03:00:34 of 524 from David Noble to you and Robert black and others this is the Trevor this is the first list of Grand Vitara residents occupants and at the
03:00:46 Vitara residents occupants and at the end of that sentence we looked at it before it says looking for plans and do you remember how the question of plans first came up no I don't I do know that
03:01:03 first came up no I don't I do know that they were sent and I do know that there were a number of familiarization visits with the lfb in advance of the fire and
03:01:14 with the lfb in advance of the fire and that was after the refurbishment have occurred and my assumption was that in those familiarization visits that plans would have been given to to them
03:01:26 would have been given to to them was there a premises information box that grenfell tower on the night of the fire but you say your assumption is that on the 72d visits that the plan the plans of this building would have been
03:01:38 plans of this building would have been put in the hands of the lfp yep cut because and I know that several familiarization visits were were done and the refurbishment would have
03:01:49 and the refurbishment would have occurred or as the refurbishment was occurring so my assumption would be that they've been looking at those plan as the fabricator familiarizing themselves with a building that's
03:02:01 themselves with a building that's changed in layout there's a limit to how far I can follow that up but I just want to ask this question who within the team would anybody within the TMO have been
03:02:14 would anybody within the TMO have been responsible for providing those plans to the fire brigade during those seven 2d visits so so I think I think I'm right in saying that our health and safety
03:02:25 in saying that our health and safety done those site visits with the lfb or or it or it may have been our assets team there's the work were going on so I'm not hundred percent sure but I
03:02:36 I'm not hundred percent sure but I believe it was the health and safety responsibilities okay that's it that's not an area that comes under my control so I comment on the night did you have
03:02:49 so I comment on the night did you have any assumption the London Fire Brigade would already have plans in their possession for this building when you saw this email from David noble which
03:03:02 saw this email from David noble which said looking for plans did it occur to you at that point that the London Fire Brigade might not have well I didn't know whether he was looking for plans because someone was specifically asked for him or whether he's just doing a
03:03:13 for him or whether he's just doing a general search of all of our stuff to find something useful that's the kind of type of person you you know he was would have been trying to just look for things in case we needed it I don't know whether he'd been asked that but
03:03:25 whether he'd been asked that but definitely my assumption is that they would have had those those plans in advance right
03:03:34 just because that's a regular thing that happens yeah and I I take it from many of the answers you've given me this morning that you wouldn't have followed up didn't follow up with David Noble
03:03:45 up didn't follow up with David Noble this question of the search for plans of this building is that right do you know who did I know from looking
03:03:59 do you know who did I know from looking evidence this week that's been covered too it's like to a certain extent I
03:04:11 that's as far as I know it specifically I don't know anything more independent of the MS this inquiry anything else's neck right now can I then ask you to
03:04:23 neck right now can I then ask you to look at a different email mr. chairman it's within a topic that I'm not going to finish before one o'clock and there's probably better picked up after yes are
03:04:35 probably better picked up after yes are you able to give me any indication of how much from you yes they need it to witness and probably another 45 minutes or so
03:04:43 or so oh right well I'm sorry I was hoping that we could finish our evidence before we stop for lunch but I think that isn't now going to be possible I think it's more sensible anyway give us give you a
03:04:55 more sensible anyway give us give you a grade okay so is that a good point to take so we'll stop now we'll have time for lunch
03:05:06 stop now we'll have time for lunch and we'll resume at 2:00 o'clock
03:05:09 and then they'll I hope get you away as soon as we can anyway so please don't talk to anyone about your evidence over the break and if you'd like to go with the arson or the got you okay thank you
03:05:20 the arson or the got you okay thank you thank you very much
03:05:35 good thank you very much two o'clock please