Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Evidence from KCTMO (16 November 2018 Pt 2 of 2)
00:00:30 you
00:10:23 right could you ask the witness to come back please
00:10:46 right is it brown yeah ready to carry on yes yes mr. Mulloy Miss Brown thank you for coming back to us I'm going to continue on the theme of information
00:10:58 continue on the theme of information which you saw or had on the night and I going to ask you please next to turn to a document TMO one double zero three double one seven six page six TMO one
00:11:13 double one seven six page six TMO one double zero three double 176 page six
00:11:20 now this is an email of the 14th of June Center Oh 603 to you as well as Janice ray and Nicola Bartholomew and it comes
00:11:32 ray and Nicola Bartholomew and it comes from David Noble as you can see in it's entitled subject Grenfell emergency plans section you see yeah and just to familiarize you with this document it's
00:11:44 familiarize you with this document it's an email that runs over three pages and has some information on it you just cost your eye down it you'll see that it's gruntal tower on the and the address number of dwellings 120 proximate number
00:11:57 number of dwellings 120 proximate number of residents 332 360 indication of like a number of vulnerable witnesses 8 to 12 and then over the page top of the page information just where did you get there
00:12:10 information just where did you get there over the page page 7
00:12:26 information useful to the emergency services our basic plans available and if so are these attached and then you can see some further details and then at the bottom of the page location of
00:12:38 the bottom of the page location of relevant keys in reception ground-floor and then if we could turn the page again to page 8 please top of that page
00:13:03 you can see at the top miss Brandon says stairs exit alleyway level now show you this document not completely but parts of it and I'm happy to show you more of
00:13:16 of it and I'm happy to show you more of it if you want me to to make my questions clearer but the first question I I have is do you remember asking David Noble to send you this information on the night do you know why he sent it to
00:13:27 the night do you know why he sent it to you yeah right he probably is just trying to be helpful but I don't do you know where he got the information from did it appear to you to
00:13:41 information from did it appear to you to be in a full a format that was familiar it's it's it is documents that is attached right look at what I want to
00:14:01 attached right look at what I want to show you is the TMO emergency plan which and I'll show you the first page I'll just take it in stages t mo 101 3 8 9 8
00:14:14 just take it in stages t mo 101 3 8 9 8 page 1
00:14:17 [Music]
00:14:25 and and that says as it as we can see Casey TMO emergency plan are you familiar with this document of one follows and then if we turned to page
00:14:36 follows and then if we turned to page three within that document
00:14:59 you could see that it has version 1 August 2004 revised in May 2009 May 2015 and February 2016 and then just looking
00:15:17 and February 2016 and then just looking and then you're gonna be able to ask you to do this at any speed but looking on do you know that this document is divided into two parts part one which is the emergency plan for TMO and part two
00:15:29 the emergency plan for TMO and part two which is property details you on the night of the fire were you familiar with that is the basic structure of this document
00:15:35 document you were right now I'm going to ask you to turn please to part 2 within the section dealing with property details and go please to page 1 4 5
00:15:54 and there we can see the details which are familiar from the email we were just looking at miss Ms Brown under the first heading under Grenfell tower Lancaster
00:16:05 heading under Grenfell tower Lancaster West fourth entry down number of dwellings 120 yeah as at the night of the fire did you did you know that that was wrong and that in fact the number of flats in in that building was 129 yes
00:16:17 flats in in that building was 129 yes absolutely you didn't know that yeah and does he also follow that you also would know that the number of in developer residence was unlikely to be for 8 to 12 yeah that's more likely to
00:16:29 for 8 to 12 yeah that's more likely to be reflected on the information we discussed earlier okay and can I also take it that if you turn to page 1 4 6 you can see at the top of
00:16:44 to page 1 4 6 you can see at the top of the page other means of escape stairs at exit walkway level is it right that there were in fact no stairs exit at walkway level as that the night of the fire and then we can see it the half way
00:16:57 fire and then we can see it the half way down this page that in fact that this document was dated the 25th of February 2002 this part is yes yes as at the night of the fire did you know that this
00:17:10 night of the fire did you know that this part this information of our grenfell tower within the emergency plan was 15 and a half years out of date and I didn't know that but I didn't know that
00:17:21 didn't know that but I didn't know that this information wasn't correct and I didn't utilize it because and we had already passed on the correct information to [Music]
00:17:31 [Music] to people to the laner and people who were you when they out along the day didn't use this see do I take it from that answer that when were part of that answer that when you receive the email
00:17:43 answer that when you receive the email we looked at a minute ago with these details in it you look you looked at it and realized it was out of date yes yes yes was that the first time that you discovered that the property details for
00:17:56 discovered that the property details for Granville tower were out of date within the emergency plan who within the TMO
00:18:09 the emergency plan who within the TMO has responsibility for keeping this document up to date who heads that
00:18:29 matters is our executive director
00:18:36 structure did you regularly Lee A's in your role as head of Housing if I can
00:18:48 your role as head of Housing if I can use a shorthand to do regularly A's with Barbara Matthews about the details within the emergency plan for properties did Barbara Matthews or anybody and her
00:19:01 did Barbara Matthews or anybody and her team ever seek updated details about properties for the purposes of keeping this emergency plan up to date certainly
00:19:13 this emergency plan up to date certainly did Barbara Matthews or anybody in her team ever come to you and ask for updated details about properties for the purposes of keeping this emergency plan up to date how involved was were you and
00:19:30 up to date how involved was were you and your team in providing details which we find in this emergency plan do you know where Barbara Matthews and her team would get the details of our
00:19:42 her team would get the details of our properties in order to insert them into the emergency plan they would be familiar with the works in general and I
00:19:54 familiar with the works in general and I believe that Janice Rea who's our health and safety officer would have had involvement with the familiarization with the fire brigade and would have updated them on this information see see
00:20:12 updated them on this information see see the answer is Janice raised this right was the link between Barbara Matthews his team between the lfb and the TM oh and yes yes but also but within the TM a
00:20:25 and yes yes but also but within the TM a was she it was she was she the link between your team and the Barbara Matthews team she reported directly into it okay have you any explanation as to
00:20:41 it okay have you any explanation as to why this emergency plan was 15 and a half years out-of-date for Grandville tower as at the night of the fire I do
00:20:52 tower as at the night of the fire I do know we gave to the right details early in the morning of the 14th at what point on the night did you discover that the detailed information for grenfell tower
00:21:03 detailed information for grenfell tower within the improvers emergency plan was that of date I think it was after we had given the correct information was it that was that was quite early on I
00:21:14 that was that was quite early on I remember that was one of the first questions how many properties we would give him that correct information so
00:21:25 give him that correct information so this is yeah did it surprise you that David navel was sending information that was 15 years out of date and did not reflect the refurbishment as we can see
00:21:37 reflect the refurbishment as we can see - the incident ground at that time so David no ball wasn't a member of the health and safety team he so so I'm assuming that he was just looking for documents that may of
00:21:49 looking for documents that may of assistance now let me ask my question again I didn't think that you answered it did it surprise you that David Noble was sending information to the incident
00:22:00 was sending information to the incident ground about Granville tower that was 15 years out of date well I'm not sure that he would have known no but it did it surprise you that he was doing it um well I suppose it is
00:22:13 he was doing it um well I suppose it is surprising that we don't have a document that's up to date but it didn't find me because we'd already given the right information soon we can also see on page
00:22:27 information soon we can also see on page 145 if we just get back a page please
00:22:36 I'll just wait again for the document to come up page 145 just back one page please
00:22:48 you can see that there's a a line that says information useful to the emergency services and then underneath that our basic plans available and if so are these attached and that is also repeated
00:23:01 these attached and that is also repeated verbatim in V in the email that David mogul sent to you did did the fact that there was a gap or blank in the email
00:23:13 there was a gap or blank in the email about the attachment of plans trigger any thoughts in your head about where the plans were available at that stage I
00:23:24 [Music] just showed you an email that came from a monovalent 603 am afraid I just
00:23:45 a monovalent 603 am afraid I just quickly glanced at and thought it's not accurate and then didn't spend any more time on that did you notice that Janis Ray was another recipient of this email
00:23:59 Ray was another recipient of this email no I mean I really didn't spend much time looking at the detail of all of these emails when I was trying to do really live positive things to make a system running around everywhere
00:24:10 system running around everywhere I thought I know we've given the right information I'm gonna park that and get on with something this I understand does it follow from that then that you didn't
00:24:22 it follow from that then that you didn't contact Janis ray and say Janis I've just received these details from David Noble there that don't reflect the refurbishment can you please provide him with updatable provide us with updated
00:24:34 with updatable provide us with updated information now it didn't because I think that's something that we could just deal with after we had so much to deal with on the night that I wouldn't have that wouldn't have been you know my thought process right
00:24:47 been you know my thought process right there were you in contact with Janice ray during the course of your attendance at the incident ground from your time of arrival until 8 o'clock I'm sure I would
00:24:58 arrival until 8 o'clock I'm sure I would have been at some point I remember her I so many people remember her sending us
00:25:09 so many people remember her sending us charges down for our phones but I don't remember any specific conversations with her right what about the other recipient
00:25:25 her right what about the other recipient of this email apart from you and Janice rape Nicola Bartholomew did you contact Nicola and say to her Nicola this information is out of date can we get some up-to-date information reported to
00:25:39 some up-to-date information reported to me she was with me in the rest sentence so there would there wouldn't have been any value in doing that and doesn't say I know I'd give them we've given the right numbers of properties previously
00:25:52 right numbers of properties previously and as far as I know this document wasn't handed over to to anyone so we won't you know we weren't giving we weren't passing on misinformation coming
00:26:03 weren't passing on misinformation coming back to the question of plans did you notice that there were no plans attached to the email that David Noble was sending you and I take it that that would then it would then follow that you
00:26:15 would then it would then follow that you didn't then go back to David Noble and say where are the plans can I ask you to
00:26:26 go back please - your witness statement a paragraph 30 and this follows on from
00:26:41 a paragraph 30 and this follows on from paragraph 12 I'd just like to have both paragraphs 12 and 13 highlighted if I can please paragraph 12 we've looked at
00:26:55 can please paragraph 12 we've looked at this morning miss Brown and that's all about information being requested by the lfb and and we've covered that paragraph 13 I've come back to now for reasons
00:27:07 13 I've come back to now for reasons which will become apparent but that then is an example you say I recall by way of example a senior fire officer asking Graham and myself if he came out of the
00:27:18 Graham and myself if he came out of the stairs on the 11th floor and turned left what flat numbers would be there I was able to telephone a TMI officer very familiar with the block and information was provided I was not involved in or
00:27:31 was provided I was not involved in or aware of any strategic incident command issues or decisions all right just take
00:27:42 issues or decisions all right just take a moment no no justjust take them you feel better
00:27:51 and on this panel take this slowly and carefully and I'm afraid I do have to ask you questions and if if it gets too much we can stop and we can take it you can take a break it's no rush you
00:28:07 can take a break it's no rush you provided this is an example of lfb asking for information now the first question is can you remember where you
00:28:19 question is can you remember where you were when a senior at this senior fire officer asked gram and you this question
00:28:35 do you remember even roughly what time that was
00:28:39 that was I'm sorry I don't significant moment by I don't know the time yeah let's take it
00:28:52 I don't know the time yeah let's take it slowly you say it was a significant moment what makes you say that
00:29:04 so we just have fours yeah that's all right it's important that you feel would you like have a five-minute break
00:29:15 five-minute break no I need to we need to do this yes
00:29:20 just take your time but thank you it's because the and the fire brigade so either the man was I don't know who it was he came out and he said to Graham
00:29:32 it was he came out and he said to Graham and I there there there are a number of bodies on the 11th floor and and we need to know what numbers are on that floor I
00:29:45 to know what numbers are on that floor I just remember the circumstances in which he was asking for the information I knew it was really urgent and I knew at to be absolutely accurate I always wanted yeah one of a number of really awful moments
00:29:59 one of a number of really awful moments all right
00:30:04 No
00:30:09 take a we take tennis lately in terms of timing I know you can't be the accurate do you remember whether it was it was still dark or whether it was getting
00:30:20 still dark or whether it was getting light all night I don't I remember that Graham was there obviously and he was there have six seven so summer it was probably like by then I'm making
00:30:31 probably like by then I'm making assumptions sorry III don't know
00:30:41 did the fact that he was asking you these questions and that was very upsetting but did the fact that he was asking you these questions about the layout of the 11th floor trigger any
00:30:56 layout of the 11th floor trigger any thoughts in your mind about whether they had had plans or hadn't had plans yet so in my mind they already have plans but when someone asked you a significant question like this in the moment you
00:31:08 question like this in the moment you know you're not asking them whether they already knew or didn't know you were just trying to find the answer as quickly as you can because you know it's really important that's what they did any other thoughts about it than that
00:31:19 any other thoughts about it than that the conversation yeah now you say there's a senior fire officer was it a
00:31:30 there's a senior fire officer was it a male it was no we may be able to you may be able to do to do that's enough I'm going to ask you about some evidence
00:31:42 going to ask you about some evidence that's been given to the inquiry by a firefighter called station manager Peter Johnson does that name ring a bell to you okay first of all can I just do you
00:31:55 you okay first of all can I just do you remember whether the firefighter you spoke to was wearing a red t-shirt okay now he's given evidence to the inquiry
00:32:06 now he's given evidence to the inquiry and our our record is the 5th of September 2018 of pages 104 to 107 and he told us that he specifically
00:32:18 he told us that he specifically remembers going out and speaking to a lady at 7:30 and again again after that to try to find out where the plans were and he says that's
00:32:31 where the plans were and he says that's later on at about 9:30 and I don't remember that specifically being asked for plans at any stage I remember this I
00:32:45 for plans at any stage I remember this I don't remember okay I'm not asking you to speculate but given what you recall of the night is it possible that the firefighter you spoke
00:32:56 possible that the firefighter you spoke to was Peter Johnson who as well as asking you about the 11th floor was also asking you about plans I mean I don't I don't know in the back of my mind as I've said previously I I knew that they
00:33:08 I've said previously I I knew that they had already been given plans and familiarization visit so as you say not giving you know I didn't give it any one thought to be fair I just because this
00:33:19 thought to be fair I just because this was so important you know there was a there was a template down in Grenfell giving floor numbers but what I did to make sure this was actually accurate was phone the officer who would have been
00:33:32 phone the officer who would have been really familiar with that who could have given the exact accurate information because they were saying when you turn right what's the specific turn left sorry yes the specific information yes
00:33:43 sorry yes the specific information yes so I did that and gave the information and you said a moment ago there was a template darling grenfell giving floor numbers what what are you there was and I thought that there was an a would you
00:33:58 I thought that there was an a would you cook them sorry
00:34:04 take a minute collect your thoughts well it's just flowing up the floor numbers that would say what what floor what flats sorry now what flats would be on which floor
00:34:19 next to the lift sorry next to the lift I can't remember specifically but I just there was no information on the floors
00:34:30 there was no information on the floors were you referring to them but are you referring to a silver metal yes yeah so if you went to a floor would have the flat no going back to your your
00:34:45 have the flat no going back to your your statement of paragraph 13 you say you were able to telephone a TMI officer very familiar with the block and information was provided first of all do
00:34:57 information was provided first of all do you remember who you telephoned and I found I found Nicola both on new first I think and she got Janice Jones who was the neighbourhood opposite court call me so it was it was really quick it was in
00:35:09 so it was it was really quick it was in quick time right so just to be clear you phoned I think I live off all of you and then Janice Jones is that right Janice Jones called me tonight Mac yeah okay
00:35:23 Jones called me tonight Mac yeah okay sheet so she called you and Jim Jonas Jones who is she what does she does he was a neighborhood officer for the air would have been very familiar with right
00:35:35 would have been very familiar with right which was she on site or not she now at that stage I I can tell you whether she was
00:35:45 and and you say that the information was provided yeah first of all do you remember what information was provided I
00:35:57 remember what information was provided I gave the flat numbers but I cut by yes I gave the flat numbers but I cut my content you know most that numbers were
00:36:07 right okay I didn't write it down I stood next to the person as I got the information and passed it on I believe so this conversation with Janice James
00:36:19 so this conversation with Janice James were you still at the command yes yes
00:36:26 and Janice gave you is this right gave you the flat numbers on the telephone yeah and I passed I passed it on to that same father that same person the same
00:36:38 same father that same person the same person who asked me the information okay no again disease is a points of fine detail but do you remember whether you spoke to that far office through the window the command unit no he was out he
00:36:49 window the command unit no he was out he was outside camera he was a sane man and stood outside he was definitely next he came out from the command unit right
00:37:03 once he did he have a close shaven head I couldn't be a hundred percent sure but it's slightly meaning that it's not
00:37:14 it's slightly meaning that it's not narrowing it down very much but but we know that Peter Johnson we know what he looks like him you know what he was wearing at least earlier slightly earlier in the night and we're looking
00:37:25 earlier in the night and we're looking for a closely shaven man with a red t-shirt it does that ring a bell and I think he didn't have much hair and I think it's very cool it was quite cool but I'm not going to don't say that that
00:37:38 but I'm not going to don't say that that is the case
00:37:52 do
00:37:57 did you have any estates services assistance on-site with you during the night and they they were they were on
00:38:09 night and they they were they were on the ground yeah who were they alright what was their names I'm sorry
00:38:24 alright what was their names I'm sorry it's completely gone hangs up I should know this I'm really saying I'm sorry to
00:38:35 know this I'm really saying I'm sorry to them that I can't remember their names but I just can't that alright thank you it's not a memory test this is just no I know attempt to get the reason I'm asking you that question of his brand is because the emergency plan says itself
00:38:47 because the emergency plan says itself that estate services assistance the SAS you've got local knowledge you should attend and I'm just trying to see whether whether they were not happy with a little bit they would have been now yes I I do remember the to be you know
00:38:59 yes I I do remember the to be you know people who have like knowledge were there and they were part of Nicholas team at Lancaster West and they were I did see them and they they did bring me information during the course of the day
00:39:14 now
00:39:23 still on the subject of plans my Trumbull who had taken over the principal lay-low role at all by 7 o'clock a.m says that he asked you for
00:39:37 o'clock a.m says that he asked you for plans after a meeting which began at 7:10 and finished 15 or so minutes after that do you recall having a discussion
00:39:50 that do you recall having a discussion with my Trumbull about plans and around that time I think gram would have been with me at that stage I don't do you
00:40:05 with me at that stage I don't do you remember being asked to provide an electoral roll no or at least assist in the obtaining of an electoral roll do
00:40:18 the obtaining of an electoral roll do you okay let's have a look at an email please our BK quadruple zero one four six eight
00:40:41 our BK quadruple zero one four six eight this is an email dated 14th of June 2017 sent at what appears to be zero five
00:40:55 sent at what appears to be zero five 1623 from Robert black to John Allen at RB Casey forwarding fire access plans from the refurb and there are some
00:41:07 from the refurb and there are some attachments to it and you can see the email below it which is being forwarded so it is an email from David Noble timed at 6:14 606 14 to Janis ray Robert black
00:41:23 at 6:14 606 14 to Janis ray Robert black and Nicola Bartholomew now you're not copied in on this email so you may not be able to help me with this but did you know that around this time plans or fire
00:41:36 know that around this time plans or fire access plans of the building were being sent to mr. black can you assist us with how it was that David noble came to send
00:41:49 how it was that David noble came to send those plans do you know whether he was asked sorry I don't
00:41:57 can you assist with whether you know whether Robert black sent these plans or gave these plans to that the lfb all the labor it looks like that is him sending
00:42:10 labor it looks like that is him sending the plans to John Allen yes but I'd sorry I know if you gave it to the lay low did I get to by ask you two questions first of all the LF B we can
00:42:21 questions first of all the LF B we can see it goes to John Allen who is over RB Casey but do you know whether he sent those plans to the lfb
00:42:32 I think I've heard that he did but I haven't alright you know I wasn't involved in this so I can't tell you at what stage but no I I can't say more
00:42:47 what stage but no I I can't say more than that and the same I imagine would apply to my question in relation to whether or not Robert black provided these to the lay low I I think he did
00:42:58 these to the lay low I I think he did just don't for having conversations but I can tell you when you say you think he did overhearing conversations are those conversations you ever heard on the night no no no that would just be
00:43:09 night no no no that would just be literally from evidence that I've been watching yeah
00:43:22 do you remember being shown of any platting any floor plans for grenfell tower on somebody's mobile phone
00:43:47 No
00:43:51 I'm going to ask you to look please next at an email at t mo 103 1 176 page 9
00:44:10 now this is an email sent by Robert black to a number of recipients Peter
00:44:24 black to a number of recipients Peter Madison Barbara Matthews Janice Rey and Yvonne Burch and it's copied to you and Hashem Chu you see that yes the time of it is is exactly 6 a.m. subject fire to
00:44:39 it is is exactly 6 a.m. subject fire to update Teresa and Hashem and that should be managing I think resources at the rest bite centers are FM and NBP are here and making statements saying very little and we were told yesterday that's
00:44:50 little and we were told yesterday that's a reference to rock fielding Mellon and is it Nick Padgett brown and then questions about the cladding and spec questions about how its spread and then two lines down
00:45:04 how its spread and then two lines down from that we need all the information about the refurbishment as this will be a primary focus brackets Peter and his team and do you remember receiving this
00:45:16 team and do you remember receiving this email
00:45:18 email do you remember questions arising or being asked on the night about cladding and spec yep no suddenly no it wasn't
00:45:29 and spec yep no suddenly no it wasn't something that was discussed with me I I was said said before getting focusing on the things that I need to do
00:45:43 do on the night were you yourself aware of any deficiencies in the building so far as concerns fire safety did you on
00:45:57 far as concerns fire safety did you on the night ask Janice Rey or anybody else at the TMO about whether there were any deficiencies so far as concerns fire safety
00:46:16 Miss Brown thank you very much I've come to the end of my questions I may need to double check to make sure I've asked all the questions I need to ask of you but for the moment I get to ask the Chairman to rise just so that I can make it a
00:46:27 to rise just so that I can make it a check okay thank you all right so we'll rise for five minutes a quarter to three you can it's time to okay get adjusted soon you like to go with D I should have still look after you
00:46:38 you thank you very much
00:46:52 right across the street
00:57:11 yes mr. Littman I imagine you've found a few questions one or two but not none yes good I think we've been asked to wait for two minutes - sure
00:58:15 right okay yes sister mr. Brown thank you for coming back to us I've only got a very few questions for you first of all you mentioned in your evidence I think this morning a resident
00:58:28 evidence I think this morning a resident caretaker you mentioned there was a caretaker for Granville Tower who was that person's name what was that person's name do you know listen I can't
00:58:43 person's name do you know listen I can't remember his name I'm so sorry I should know that be on record when you say you describe it as a resident caretaker was that actually a caretaker resident there
00:58:54 that actually a caretaker resident there or I'm just nearby no we didn't have many whistling caretakers let's sort of used to somebody who lived in in the area they were two kids to estate services assistants who were familiar with the
00:59:06 assistants who were familiar with the area and that's where you were just as caretaker and there Calder's estate service assistance but and effectively then known as caretaker funny no next question is it relates to keys
00:59:20 no next question is it relates to keys did you know who we are own knowledge that Grenfell tower can only be accessed by somebody with a key fob and people
00:59:32 by somebody with a key fob and people use key fobs there but there would have been a drop down there would have been an access full are you saying an access for the fire brigade yeah there would have been arrangements for them to get
00:59:43 have been arrangements for them to get through they would have been in there's usually a drop down the key that enables people to Fire Brigades to enter any of our buildings right and but those
00:59:54 our buildings right and but those arrangements would have been made known to the fire brigade in in terms of the familiarization of how to get into a into a building did you make any assumptions on the night after you were
01:00:07 assumptions on the night after you were alerted to this fire about whether or not
01:00:10 not or about how it was the fire brigade could get into the building I didn't spend time thinking about it I thought they'd get in and any which way they could have given the seriousness of the situation but I also in the back of my
01:00:22 situation but I also in the back of my mind knew that they'd been familiar ization visits and they would know how to to get into a building okay are you aware of that in the emergency plan the tiaras own plan there is a
01:00:34 plan the tiaras own plan there is a provision for availability of keys and that Duty estate staff would have their own key so as to be able to access yes [Music]
01:00:43 [Music] right and they you say they would yeah they've the ASA's are on a rotor and they do have keys to access but do you happen to know which yeah whether there
01:00:57 happen to know which yeah whether there was an ESA on site at a time earlier than you arrived yes there was yes do you know how long before you arrived at
01:01:10 you know how long before you arrived at about three because you arrived at about 350 how long that at ESA had been there and I have seen an email that says that
01:01:23 and I have seen an email that says that one of our ASAS was on site from 2:30 with another colleague I've seen that email but I I didn't see that too clear say on the night do you remember whether that ESA
01:01:38 night do you remember whether that ESA had a set of keys for Greenville tower and could could sort out any key problem that there might be I would imagine he did but I mean do you know I don't know
01:01:52 did but I mean do you know I don't know how'd you decide all right now next question you described earlier later on this morning just before lunch the difficulties that you had in reading the
01:02:04 difficulties that you had in reading the lists of residents that came through on your phone on on two occasions and he also said that you've been offered office space at some Clemens Church do you remember whether the office
01:02:16 do you remember whether the office spaces in Clemens Church had computer facilities we used our we used our own laptop in that or and that office space the the laptop that I had described
01:02:29 the the laptop that I had described earlier that and McCarran single we utilized that in the office space yes did the office space have a computer you could have used no well I didn't ever
01:02:47 could have used no well I didn't ever try to to utilize office space there I
01:02:53 think you told us this morning that office space was was offered to you it's in Clements Church I didn't try and read any documents on that because Karen
01:03:04 any documents on that because Karen Singh was already using the laptop to look at that data and to provide additional you know it's put overlay the additional information that we've got in
01:03:17 additional information that we've got in life time across that so I was looking at that screen with him throughout the day as we were making continual calls to people who were still missing so I didn't seek to try and look at that on
01:03:29 didn't seek to try and look at that on something else were you offered office space that's in Clements Church prior to Kieran arriving with the laptop you then used to access that information no we won't because at
01:03:41 that information no we won't because at that time there was only a few of staff there and both on me and myself were still you know very much um trying to
01:03:53 still you know very much um trying to get around all of the residents and we set up a little desk just near the entrance to make sure that people registered with their eyes and that was our focus at that time so I wasn't you
01:04:05 our focus at that time so I wasn't you know wasn't looking off his face at that time what this brown thank you very much for those answers you'll be glad to know I've got no further questions for you so
01:04:17 I've got no further questions for you so it remains for me only to say thank you very much to you for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations were extremely grateful and I'd like to add my thanks to those in just a minute
01:04:28 in just a minute it's really important that we hear from people who were there during the night in question it all helps us to build up the full picture well you've given your evidence over quite a long period of time very patient
01:04:40 quite a long period of time very patient and if I may say so very carefully and I'm sorry it's been a difficult experience for you but we are very grateful to you for coming along I think there's nothing to what's experienced by
01:04:51 there's nothing to what's experienced by the residents who have lost people soon you know goes without saying that we have puppets to help in any way we can well very grateful thank you much much right you like to give it up so she'll
01:05:02 right you like to give it up so she'll regarding
01:05:16 yes sister is a chairman we have one more witness this afternoon yes who mr. Keating is going to call I think we need a very short break just to rearrange the furniture but very short yeah well I'll
01:05:28 furniture but very short yeah well I'll rise from it and you coming send the actual thing we win right
01:08:02 [Music]
01:08:05 yes sir teaching mr. Chanin I call mr. sham Shawn please thank you
01:08:31 I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I
01:08:43 declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole tree thank you very much indeed yes mr. Keating could you give the
01:08:54 yes mr. Keating could you give the inquiry your full name please Hampshire mr. champion if you can invite you to keep your voice up as best you can
01:09:01 can well thank you very much for attending today and accommodating us and apologies would keep you waiting all summer you've been very patient as a timetable has shifted and a few words by way of introduction it always starts I'm going
01:09:13 introduction it always starts I'm going to the folks that are questions are we on the lead up to events on the nights and before 8 a.m. and I know you leave them about 6 a.m. to do other work on
01:09:24 them about 6 a.m. to do other work on the rest centers so that's not good to be a difficulty I'm second if questions are designed to be short and simple but if I fail on that task please do a little rephrase effective and lastly and importantly we are and revisiting 2m an
01:09:38 importantly we are and revisiting 2m an eventful incidents which can be upsetting and if you need a break any stage do ask for one firstly just we're by a formality your witness statement is
01:09:49 by a formality your witness statement is going to be brought up which is stated to 22nd of August 2018 that's tml number one double zero four eight nine six zero and it's also in a blue folder in front of you perhaps you
01:10:01 blue folder in front of you perhaps you could have a look at that once it's been be brought up on the system and did at a twenty second of August 2018 and have you not had an opportunity to read to that state and can you confirm to that
01:10:12 that state and can you confirm to that statement as true to the best of your recollection and knowledge yes sir the best of my recollection and you have in front of you but also on the screen in front of you as well there is and in
01:10:23 front of you as well there is and in fact I darling that's two rights and no stain on sets is it's not your signature I think even I can identify it's not your signature the signature front of you of your statement
01:10:35 you of your statement and we can check that reference in a moment did a 22nd developers 2018 you confirm under the documentation before you that's your signature correct I'm just going to check that team that
01:10:47 just going to check that team that reference once that's will have the reference corrected to make sure you bring it the right document so that everyone can participate and last matter
01:10:59 everyone can participate and last matter by way of introduction is so what I deal with evidence um three broad headings if I may and firstly your background experience briefly and secondly focusing on notification in relation to the fire
01:11:11 on notification in relation to the fire and your attendance at the scene and and lastly that the focus will be on your actions on the nights before we went at a rest Center and in terms of the
01:11:25 a rest Center and in terms of the reference credit the statement it's up wonderfully done thank you so much and it's now in front of us and that we've just got a page - it shows your
01:11:36 just got a page - it shows your signature and your declaration first hitting mr. champion and your position and career in June 2007 we perhaps could go back to paragraph 1 page 1 you're
01:11:48 go back to paragraph 1 page 1 you're head of supported housing at the TMO is that correct that's correct and you were responsible for older people's services in sheltered housing and the Caroline service that's correct
01:11:59 service that's correct and how long had you been working for its here mold as of June 2017 since 2003 she has been this room so approximately 14 years before June 2017 and and you
01:12:12 14 years before June 2017 and and you now have transferred those duties you now would all be cases that I am since March of this year the terms are before asking about the 14th of June and you
01:12:26 asking about the 14th of June and you mentioned you state my paragraph 3 that's and you cannot be precise and timings
01:12:32 timings before dealing with your notification and did you make any contemporaneous notes on the nights of your actions no I didn't and in in a short period afterwards did you make any notes after
01:12:45 afterwards did you make any notes after the event or log after didn't know and just assist us through I'm sure it's probably a good reason but is there a reason why you didn't do that well on the night I attended I received a call and I left home with my staff ID badge
01:12:58 and I left home with my staff ID badge and my phone nothing else nothing else
01:13:03 could ask you to look at the TMO emergency plan which we've seen already today that's TMO one zero zero one three eight nine eight that's gonna be brought
01:13:16 eight nine eight that's gonna be brought up in a moment but are you aware of the CML emergency plan yes I'm aware
01:13:25 and if he just got to page one please for the moment and have you ever had to apply the TM o of n Sigma no you're
01:13:37 apply the TM o of n Sigma no you're listed I think at page 19 from recollection on the Cascade four out of hours is that correct your recollection but even though you're on the Cascades
01:13:48 but even though you're on the Cascades it's not the case on your evidence that you've never been called out I've been called out for major incidents in the past but on both occasions they were major incidents an erv KC emergency plan
01:14:00 major incidents an erv KC emergency plan had come into effect and which major incidents were they there was a major incident of a fire into their Tower when ice called out and a few years back I don't remember
01:14:12 a few years back I don't remember exactly I think it was about sparing me 11 years ago there was a gas explosion on the worlds and estate now just check their coup stick sweater the voice has been amplified enough all right as everyone
01:14:25 amplified enough all right as everyone hearing I wonderfully if if insist is just bringing forward a microphone just a little bit just hmm well if possible are moved I think yes that we had amazing move to decide
01:14:40 forgive me mr. show me where the fans are causing convenient you waited this long I think it's important we hear what you say mr. Norman but can you hear
01:14:54 you say mr. Norman but can you hear right good so Europe your honor cascade you've told us that you've been called out twice when it's a major emergency
01:15:05 out twice when it's a major emergency and of those occasions the TMO emergency plan wasn't utilized because as I understand it they all DKC they were both major incidents and the rbac
01:15:16 both major incidents and the rbac emergency plan would have come into effect and in relation to reverting back to the TM oversee plan just for a moment you've been there for a number of years
01:15:28 you've been there for a number of years at the TMO before moving across and how regular was a training you had in relation to the emergency plans I didn't have any training on the emergency plan I had a briefing so I'm not familiar
01:15:39 I had a briefing so I'm not familiar with the content of the emergency plan itself but I am familiar with the cascade because there would have been some negotiations with the health and
01:15:51 some negotiations with the health and safety team around my involvement on the cascade okay so just to draw out a few points there in your 14 or so years that's the TMO you had a briefing of the
01:16:03 that's the TMO you had a briefing of the plan but no training and you weren't familiar with the content of the mercy plan itself but there had been some discussions about you being placed on
01:16:14 discussions about you being placed on the cascade that's corrective and you revert you referred to the Kensington and Chelsea contingency management plan there are their own emergency plan did
01:16:25 there are their own emergency plan did you have any training or knowledge of that actual plan I had knowledge of how to escalate the plan but not the plan itself
01:16:36 I'm gonna move on now to our second heading which is notification when you became aware of the fire that night if we could revert back to your statement just for a moment where is that
01:16:47 just for a moment where is that paragraph three please just to help you to follow and we could expand that four I think most of us that's okay thank you
01:16:59 I think most of us that's okay thank you you receive a telephone call at home from Robert black at about 1:00 1:30 and that's correct and it's in terms of timings is there any any particular
01:17:11 timings is there any any particular reason how that timing has stuck in your memory when making a statement no yeah no when I make this statement it was in August and it was based on my recollection it's my recollection
01:17:22 recollection it's my recollection because I was called approximately around 1:30 thank you and when you had received that call at 1:30 in the morning from Robert black what did he say to you can you recollect yeah
01:17:33 did he say to you can you recollect yeah he called me and he asked me if I was aware that there was a fire at grandpa which I wasn't he asked me if I would be
01:17:44 which I wasn't he asked me if I would be happy to go down I live locally yes and you heard me saying that I attended previous incidents in the past and so I had no hesitation in volunteering to go
01:17:56 had no hesitation in volunteering to go down yes and he explained that he was making his way down and would I mind going down in advance of him as TMO representative which is why I did yes
01:18:10 was any discussions about sweater did CMO emergency planner been activated never or not were you aware and anything only whether a major instance had been
01:18:21 only whether a major instance had been called at that stage by any of the emergency services no at that stage I was going blind it was only as I was making my way that I that the full
01:18:32 making my way that I that the full horror of what was unfolding that night was presented in front of me so you're asked to go down there to be the representative the tml at that stage I mean he informed you he was going to
01:18:43 I mean he informed you he was going to make his way as well to attend an understanding that's it's touched upon a paragraph nine of your statements but prior to events to the 14th of June
01:18:55 prior to events to the 14th of June you'd very little knowledge about Grenville towers a building as a building yeah no knowledge at all of the area I'm very familiar with the area and perhaps if I can just backtrack a little
01:19:07 perhaps if I can just backtrack a little bit
01:19:07 bit I'm not lived in the area for 50 odd years and part of that time included living on lengths to west estate my parents lived there for 25 years a
01:19:18 parents lived there for 25 years a significant number of my extended family aunts uncles nephews cousins still lived there and were directly impacted and I have a number of friends who also live
01:19:29 have a number of friends who also live on the estate who were directly impacted so so just to put into context even if roberts hadn't have called me I probably would have gone down as soon as I became aware that there was a fire
01:19:40 aware that there was a fire well you we mentioned a word volunteered in your statement and that perhaps is chimes or what you're saying about why you attended if you have got commute
01:19:52 you attended if you have got commute links strong links this means yes yes and also mentions in your statement on it is that using you cycled private yes a reflection of your proximity yes II the location and how long did it take
01:20:04 the location and how long did it take you to get by bike from your home to Grenville town normally normally no more than ten minutes but on this particular night I cycled down
01:20:16 night I cycled down but road I crossed Portobello and is it was as I was cycling down Torbett Road at the junction of Portobello that I could see the full horror of what was
01:20:27 could see the full horror of what was happening because renfa was in the skyline and the flames are climbing up the side of the building and at that point I knew how serious an incident that this was a major incident I reached
01:20:39 that this was a major incident I reached the junction of lap rakov I think it was either near Blenheim present or the next Road which I can't remember the name of and I think there was an initial cordon
01:20:50 and I think there was an initial cordon there I don't know I was proposing for a moment in terms of two cordons at that stage and you were able to get past the cordon self-evidently did you have any identification with you yes yes yeah I
01:21:02 identification with you yes yes yeah I took my staff ID with me I my recollection is I don't think I was able to take my bike beyond the initial cord and yes so so I changed my bike up I
01:21:14 and yes so so I changed my bike up I presented myself to one of the police officers of the cordon I identified myself as my ID badge and said that I need to skip to the nearest commander
01:21:25 need to skip to the nearest commander unit yes and it was the officer of that initial cordon who directs me to the command unit that I subsequently arrived at which was on both normal Road so just
01:21:36 at which was on both normal Road so just pausing there for a moment phone call at 1:30 in terms of notification and after that phone call how long they take you approximately to leave the house I was in bed so it took
01:21:47 leave the house I was in bed so it took me about 10 minutes to sling something on sure make sure I have my phone make sure I have my house keys and make sure I have my staff ID badge so 10 perhaps 15 minutes to departure 1:45
01:21:59 15 minutes to departure 1:45 approximately yes and how long did it take you say would normally take 10 minutes but it was these delays as you go it always delays yes so it probably took me 5 6 7 minutes to get to Ladbroke
01:22:10 took me 5 6 7 minutes to get to Ladbroke Grove I don't have to engage with the police officers at the core and at that point I was then on foot yes so I realized I was made aware that I needed to make my way to the vicinity of
01:22:22 needed to make my way to the vicinity of the Sports Center which I did I don't remember which road I went down but I ended up on Clarendon Road and there's a short passage on the estate there that
01:22:35 short passage on the estate there that cus free to the back of the Sports Centre and it links you to warmer Road and boat more Road when I ride that warmer Road there was a second police cordon and again I strolled up to the
01:22:47 cordon and again I strolled up to the police officer there showed my ID badge and informed him of who I was and why I was there and again this is just based
01:22:58 was there and again this is just based on my recollection I think one of the officers actually then walked me down to the command unit so from your departure from your home that approximately 1:45 and getting true to cordons as you
01:23:09 and getting true to cordons as you described it how long do you think I'd say I'd say about when see anything between 20 to 30 minutes yeah but some I managed to navigate my way through around 2:15 if we break it down the way
01:23:21 around 2:15 if we break it down the way you have you mentioned you used your ID card your TMO identification did you have anything else visible such as at a bar order or a jacket so I literally slung on the nearest items of clothing
01:23:34 slung on the nearest items of clothing that I could find because I was in bed of course when I was contacted and my recollection I think is a warm summer evening I think I've got a pair of jeans
01:23:46 evening I think I've got a pair of jeans on the t-shirts and I had my phone and my ID badge with me and on the way when you as the scale of what was occurring became apparent to you did you call
01:23:58 became apparent to you did you call anybody else from the TMO on your way to the rental Tower no not on the way better when I arrived I did on the scene approximately 2:15 your
01:24:13 on the scene approximately 2:15 your statements you mention just going to look at a reference now that's a paragraph five you would say I arrived at a command unit at about 2:00 2:00
01:24:24 at a command unit at about 2:00 2:00 a.m. or shortly after yeah so approximately the assistant what you said yeah I'm just approximating yes yeah yeah but based on my recollection that sounds about correct and by the
01:24:36 that sounds about correct and by the time you got to the command unit you mentioned that you were accompanied to the command unit yes did you see anybody from the local authority there at that point not at that points the first thing
01:24:48 point not at that points the first thing that I did was I knocked on the door of the Porter cabin yes and my recollection is I think I went in because I remember seeing three possibly four LFTRs is in
01:24:59 seeing three possibly four LFTRs is in there again I showed my card as I identified who I was and I explained that the chief executive and other members of the CMO were on their way and
01:25:10 members of the CMO were on their way and and that I was there on behalf of the PMO and what did I say to you after you explained who you were and who was coming from the CMM one of the officers
01:25:21 coming from the CMM one of the officers informed me that the later officers were on site and were around in the vicinity short okay and I made it known I was there to help
01:25:34 and I made it known I was there to help essence so if there was anything that they needed I would be available and I explained that I would wait outside you know in the vicinity of the Porter cabin and if they needed anything they could
01:25:46 and if they needed anything they could come in for me and was there any request at that point direct to you when you arrived in or features you offered your assistance no understandably so I mean this this we're talking about the first
01:25:58 this this we're talking about the first hour a couple of hours of the fire yes the fire had taken significant hold of the tower block I think the best way to describe it is horrific chaos I mean there were a
01:26:10 horrific chaos I mean there were a number of emergency services around police paramedics lfb moving backwards and forwards I mean it was it was a truly frightening sight I mean I've
01:26:22 truly frightening sight I mean I've never seen anything like that in my life yes and within that chaos horrific chaos you described you're there at 2:15 you've spoken and made yourself known at the command humans yes you've been told that there's
01:26:34 humans yes you've been told that there's a lay low on sites when was the first time you saw the Lela again I can't be sure of the exact times but it was once I placed myself outside of the command
01:26:47 I placed myself outside of the command unit someone came and presented himself as a Leila officer to me now I'm not sure if he'd been informed that someone from TMO was there but that he came he
01:26:59 from TMO was there but that he came he presented himself I again confirmed who I was I explained that I had been called by my chief executive and that the chief executive was on his way and obviously I
01:27:10 executive was on his way and obviously I was there to assist in any way that I could we know his footage which the inquiry saw yesterday and indeed before day enough and Nick Layton first lay low
01:27:23 day enough and Nick Layton first lay low on the scene do you recall speaking to Nick Layton I think Nick was the first person I made contact with I believe at some stage and if subsequently speak to my crumble less correct here as well but
01:27:36 my crumble less correct here as well but the first Leila officer that I came upon into contact with would have been Nick the footage has him arriving at o2 47 or isn't he yes that's his arrival time
01:27:47 isn't he yes that's his arrival time which was shown yesterday right and do you think that you were there before or after his arrival at o2 47 honestly well he wasn't on the scene when I
01:27:58 well he wasn't on the scene when I arrived okay but but I was definitely informed by the elephant of his that the Leila officers were on site which again may may be a reflection of
01:28:09 which again may may be a reflection of my own recollection of the diamonds yes well you're doing the best you can from your recollection and I wanted to move on to the points and perhaps when you first met mr. de Clayton was probably
01:28:23 first met mr. de Clayton was probably sometime after Oh to 47 that's what he arrived there was a period of time when only him buddy and you were outside is that correct yes can
01:28:38 you were outside is that correct yes can you be in it to give us any estimate of the duration for how long the two of you were the sole representatives of the TMO and/or bkc I think my conversation with
01:28:50 and/or bkc I think my conversation with Nick was literally a matter of two or three minutes and then he disappeared again I can't be hundred percent sure but he disappeared the command unit was
01:29:02 but he disappeared the command unit was located in Bowmore Road and as of passage that goes directly in front of the Sports Center and it's at best of my recollection he went in that direction after after I'd introduced myself and let him know that
01:29:15 introduced myself and let him know that I was I was available to assist in this and in that sort of initial introductory period when you spoke to for up to two or three minutes and what was discussed
01:29:26 or three minutes and what was discussed I introduced my CS yeah I said who I was I explained I was the head of supportive houses that I've been contacted by the chief executive because to inform me
01:29:40 chief executive because to inform me that there was fire and that I volunteered to come down in advance of other staff from the CMO the chief executive and understaffing from the CMO who were on their way
01:29:51 who were on their way in essence pretty much what you said yes already and was anything for mr. Layton at that stage as a lay low any requests at that hearing to you
01:30:04 I want to deal with the arrival of and the next TMO representative yes which I'm just gonna deal with now which is mr. mr. black Cheers can you assist and with what time he
01:30:17 can you assist and with what time he arrived at again to the best of my recollection I think it was between 3:00 and 3:30
01:30:25 and 3:30 perhaps we could bring up paragraph 8 of your statement which is in front of you the first page paragraph aids please page 1 and you mentioned there that
01:30:37 page 1 and you mentioned there that Robert black arrives sometime later at about 3:30 does that sound about right that sounds about right yes yeah and then you mentioned Theresa brown shortly after that yes at that
01:30:49 brown shortly after that yes at that time around about 3:30 to use the phraseology in your statements did you have an initial discussion with Miss mr. black at that point yes yes I did call
01:31:02 black at that point yes yes I did call him when I arrived at the command unit say Robert I'm on site and this is this is where I'm located as I knew he was travelling down so so I needed to give
01:31:13 travelling down so so I needed to give him directions to as to where to go and and I think when he arrived I think he actually called me because he wasn't sure exactly how to get there and I
01:31:24 sure exactly how to get there and I again to the best of my recollection I think he ended up at the cordon in warmer Road and my recollection is I actually went after de cordon and walked him down to the to the command unit so
01:31:38 him down to the to the command unit so by this stage is half as three mr. black is there a behalf of the TMO you were there yes
01:31:43 there yes before Theresa Brown arrives was only discussions about what you on behalf of the TMO work were there to do no I gave Robert an update yes which was to
01:31:56 Robert an update yes which was to confirm that I'd introduced myself to the lfd command unit and that I'd met the lay low officer and the lady officer wasn't around at
01:32:08 and the lady officer wasn't around at that stage but I believe he turned up sometime after and I think I introduced him to Robert and then he and Robert had a discussion and did you hear what the
01:32:20 a discussion and did you hear what the discussion was and we know Miss Brown attends reasonably shortly thereafter yeah before Theresa attended councilor
01:32:31 yeah before Theresa attended councilor field and Mellon had also shown up so he he was with Roberts when he win when he turned up any estimation as to when that
01:32:43 turned up any estimation as to when that councilor attended it would have been between Roberts arrival and Theresa's arrival but servants anytime I give you would be you know pure guessing on my
01:32:54 would be you know pure guessing on my client an in relation to rival a Theresa brown do you have an independent recollection of her again just to try to pinpoint it in relationship to when Roberts arrived
01:33:05 Roberts arrived I would say it was probably about 20 to 30 minutes after probably sometime before 4:00 we understand
01:33:17 so at the time where you have yourself mr. black and mr. ow outside the command unit what was the position then was there are out of action dispersal well
01:33:28 there are out of action dispersal well during the period I was waiting I was trying to garner as much information as as I could and again I don't remember which lay low officer but I was made
01:33:40 which lay low officer but I was made aware at that stage that some ad hoc rest centers had been opened up in this vicinity and the ones that came to mind
01:33:52 vicinity and the ones that came to mind at that particular moment were the rest center ascent Clements I was also made aware that there was a rest center as a nearby pub in Shepherds Bush which I
01:34:05 nearby pub in Shepherds Bush which I which I knew the location of and I think I was made aware that there was a potential rest center on the other side
01:34:17 potential rest center on the other side that the Sports Center at the Lancaster West Methodist Church so at this stage discussions with the other lane I think eventually it's my crumble yeah again I
01:34:28 eventually it's my crumble yeah again I can't be sure if it was Nick or my cone except that's that information would have come to me through the lay low offices so information at this stage on your account is really more about these rest centers we just have yes being set
01:34:41 rest centers we just have yes being set up yes in the locality yes and and in the context of my role I mean when I volunteer that's why I was anticipating would be my role it would be to assist with the survivors and evacuees and any
01:34:54 with the survivors and evacuees and any rest centers that would be set up that day and in terms of communications with lay low
01:35:00 lay low you've obviously had face-to-face conversations did become a time where you were provided with a radio by one of the Lalo's he will call that I may well have been but I'll be entirely honest
01:35:11 have been but I'll be entirely honest with you I have no recollection of being provided with a radio or using a radio like mr. mr. rumble has said that he's providing provided with a radio to assist with communication does that
01:35:22 assist with communication does that assist your recollection now not really no I mean I can't dispute his statement it may well have happened but that would then sort of beg the question of what did I do with the radio as I certainly didn't have it with me for the the
01:35:34 didn't have it with me for the the remainder of the day you know once we were at the rest centers you mentioned you anticipated your role was going to be was there any discussions or
01:35:47 be was there any discussions or directions from anybody else as to what your role was I mean sorry to reiterate what I said no earlier but it was absolute carnage I mean the emergency
01:35:58 absolute carnage I mean the emergency services clearly have their hands full at the time yes and it looks at me like balelo officers had their hands full at the time so I was really just trying to glean as much information as I could before my colleagues arrived I became
01:36:13 before my colleagues arrived I became aware of sleeve that there was some rest centers being set up but at that point I was the sole TMO representatives so there was no sense in me trying to get
01:36:24 there was no sense in me trying to get to any of those rest centers I had to wait for want of a better word for reinforcements until we had enough bodies on the ground to disperse across the rest census so just throwing that
01:36:37 the rest census so just throwing that together it's it's coming up to four o'clock Miss Brown has arrived and shortly after she arrived did other members of staff arrived yes I gave Teresa a hand over of the
01:36:50 yes I gave Teresa a hand over of the information that I had specifically around the location of the rest centers I do recall that to reason made me aware that Mandy warrior and Nicola
01:37:01 that Mandy warrior and Nicola Bartholomew Karen Singh I think Angelique Nova and Maria Maria Sharples were on their way I remember there was
01:37:13 were on their way I remember there was some discussion that Maria was going to try to gain access by a Shepherds Bush so I contacted Maria I phoned Maria and asked her if she writing to her that
01:37:26 asked her if she writing to her that we've been informed that there was a rest center at Belushi's pub and which she mind popping in to see what the state of play was you know how many survivors
01:37:37 survivors how many evacuated that rest center which is a rest center which really didn't take off in the end in that due to its distance no and and I did again I don't recall if Maria called me back
01:37:49 don't recall if Maria called me back directly or whether she fed through Teresa but I subsequently found out that Maria did go to the pub and there was no one there was there an occasion where
01:38:00 one there was there an occasion where once angelique noble and manly warrior attended within the cordon that you then left with them yes once we had enough bodies on the ground we gathered
01:38:14 bodies on the ground we gathered together to agree where we were going to deploy our resources in terms of where I
01:38:25 deploy our resources in terms of where I went I my recollections I went with Angelique and at that point we were made aware that there was a rest center at Latimer and again because of my familiarity with the incircle area in
01:38:37 familiarity with the incircle area in the context of the other rest centers that were being opened up Latimer was probably the furthest away because it's near the Westway Sports Center on Brown Deer Road
01:38:45 Deer Road so so I offered to go there with Angelique because Angelique didn't know exactly where it was and the rival Teresa coming up to 4 o'clock how soon
01:38:57 Teresa coming up to 4 o'clock how soon after do you but can you recollect you left the facility after command unit and went to Nazareth it's again it's very very difficult to
01:39:08 it's again it's very very difficult to recollect exact times I mean if it if it assists you and I'm giving if I'm speaking across you yes a paragraph ten you said I left the command units before
01:39:20 you said I left the command units before 6 a.m. yeah to go to the rest centers this system recording of people arriving there perhaps is open to interpretation does mean at 6 a.m. absolutely yes and and and that was
01:39:31 absolutely yes and and and that was deliberate speaker because I knew it was before 6 a.m. but I couldn't be any more specific than that again my best guess would be sometime between 5:00 and 6:00 perhaps the gist of teresa brown's
01:39:43 perhaps the gist of teresa brown's evidence was probably would be earlier in that time period rather than later in that time period is that a sister recollection not really no just focusing for a moment I'm not gonna answer to you
01:39:55 for a moment I'm not gonna answer to you at this stage relation to rest centers what you did that doesn't form part of this part of inquiry but I wanted ask you questions about that time where you were and outside a command unit you
01:40:06 were and outside a command unit you arrived to the time you went to the rest centers and did you recall seeing who was receiving or hearing any requests in relation to details of residents from
01:40:18 relation to details of residents from the lay low or LFP no I didn't receive any requests personally and I wasn't aware of any requests and the same question did you receive or did you
01:40:29 same question did you receive or did you hear anyone else receive any requests for plans of the building in our apartment many of that like at all
01:40:41 and during that time period when you were outside the command units and were you you are self aware of any deficiencies in the building at Grenville so far as concerns as the fire
01:40:54 Grenville so far as concerns as the fire safety you know again the same questions slightly different way did you hear anyone else from the TMO discuss whether there's any deficiencies that's the fire
01:41:06 there's any deficiencies that's the fire safety and the light itself no no yes sir
01:41:11 sir shamsher no I'm coming to the end of the questions I have what I'm gonna ask and mr. chairman is just for a brief absence showing us the check your notes yet check my notes and really to give the
01:41:22 check my notes and really to give the opportunity has any further following measures
01:41:25 measures well mr. champion we will have a short break comes something an opportunity just to make sure they've covered everything so I think the convenience I'll say 22:4 and I ask you please not
01:41:39 I'll say 22:4 and I ask you please not to talk about your evidence while you're out ISM if you go with the usher sure look after you all right thank you thank you very much
01:41:56 right 24 inches
01:49:53 yes which keating Limoges we found some we aim not to disappoint mr. chairman there's just two more questions right no it'll be less violence when you absolute
01:50:05 it'll be less violence when you absolute needs to come back please
01:50:24 all right with some truth yes I think council has found a couple of questions yes not to tell you much longer thank you very much for attending just two discreet topics than they deal with could we bring up your statements if
01:50:35 could we bring up your statements if that's possible please and paragraph 12 which is the last paragraph of your statement at page 2 please and once that's been brought up I'm just going to
01:50:46 that's been brought up I'm just going to read it out it says you made and receive several telephone calls throughout my time on sites and mostly would say most at and I did not keep a record of these calls which are too numerous to identify
01:50:57 calls which are too numerous to identify mm-hmm and in relation to latter part we've covered that already haven't we I'm in relation to those telephone calls will you use a your own personal mobile or was it a work mobile my personal and
01:51:08 or was it a work mobile my personal and work mobile iwan the same at the same time no I have one phone which doubles up as personal a gimmick I misheard in terms of the bills for those phones do
01:51:21 terms of the bills for those phones do you do still that phone forgive me Singler do you start access to that bill I'm sure they're available online I don't receive paper bills but so but all the bills would be on my online account
01:51:32 the bills would be on my online account did you check your phone when you were trying to check times our arrival times of other people when you know I didn't in relation to the back billing would
01:51:45 in relation to the back billing would that be something that you'd be willing to disclose to the inquiry of course yes thank you yes and when I said billing I'm referring to
01:51:56 and when I said billing I'm referring to them to call records but you refer to a number of times having phone contact with people just as they arrived or just before they arrived that's correct yes thank you and second points really is
01:52:07 thank you and second points really is mentioning the topic where mr. black arrives and you mentioned that he was with accounts the way he arrived I think Roberts arrived first and then counselor
01:52:18 Roberts arrived first and then counselor arrived maybe five ten minutes later that's the question I wanted to clarify us as to the order and could you tell us again the name of that counselor I believe it was counselor field and Mellon and when he arrived after Robert
01:52:34 Mellon and when he arrived after Robert black 10 minutes or so later and did you see what they were doing mr. black and the counselor to be honest that I have a recollection of the two of them chatting
01:52:46 recollection of the two of them chatting together slightly away from the command unit but what the content of that discussion was I couldn't tell you and in terms of the duration of that conversation again I have no
01:52:57 conversation again I have no recollection does all the questions I have thank you so much again for its thank you today I very much appreciate yes my dad my thanks with the showmanship can I just ask you have you been waiting all day to give you evidence here I'm happy to have been of
01:53:11 evidence here I'm happy to have been of help if I have been of help well you have and it's very good of you but I'm sorry we did keep you waiting around well it's difficult to avoid that to some extent anyway it's a it's a horrendous tragedy and I think you know
01:53:23 horrendous tragedy and I think you know there were a lot of people impacted on that day yeah and you know my thoughts remain with the survivors and everyone that was affected well we are very grateful to you for coming to tell us
01:53:35 grateful to you for coming to tell us what you can about what was going on you don't the wrong adds to the big picture thank you sir thank you very much and you think oh thank you you're free to go we'd like to give you the option
01:53:55 yes mr. chairman thank you so much for your patience today for sitting so late and that's all the business that there is for today right thank you very much and then we're going to start on Monday
01:54:07 and then we're going to start on Monday I think maybe mr. mr. miracle probably not probably have a good ideas anyone I hope so yes we're going to start on Monday
01:54:15 Monday with the evidence of control room officer Sara Russell right who is an lfp control room officer we will then proceed to hear evidence from other
01:54:26 proceed to hear evidence from other control rooms staff from non London control rooms who will be able to assist with some details about study control rooms and things of that nature right thank you very much well we'll break there and resume at 10 o'clock on Monday
01:54:38 there and resume at 10 o'clock on Monday morning then please thank you very much