Evidence session examining the role of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and/or the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation in the management and refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.
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# Source: Local audio transcription (no YouTube captions available)
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00:09:28 Good morning everyone. Welcome to today's hearing.
00:09:31 Today we're going to hear from some other people who were within the cordon during the fire.
00:09:37 Yes, Mr. Millett.
00:09:39 Good morning, Mr. Chairman. May I now please call Mr. Nicholas Layton of RBKC.
00:09:46 Yes, thank you.
00:10:01 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth and nothing but the truth.
00:10:20 Thank you very much, Mr. Layton. Sit down, make yourself comfortable.
00:10:24 Yes, Mr. Millett.
00:10:26 Yes, Mr. Millett.
00:10:28 Mr. Layton, good morning. Can I ask you please to give the Chairman your full name?
00:10:32 Nicholas James Layton.
00:10:34 Can I start by thanking you very much for attending today and giving evidence to the inquiry and assisting us in our investigations.
00:10:41 We very much appreciate it. If at any stage you feel you need a break, please let us know and we can take a short break.
00:10:49 It's never a difficulty. I do aim to take a break after about an hour anyway.
00:10:53 But if you, as I say, if you need a break at any time before that, all you have to do is indicate.
00:10:59 I try and keep my questions as short and simple as possible.
00:11:03 If you don't understand a question I've asked or you want me to put the question in a different way, I'm very happy to do that as well.
00:11:10 Thank you.
00:11:12 Now, you've provided two witness statements.
00:11:16 The first is your statement that you gave to the police on the 20th of September 2017.
00:11:21 And that is MET quadruple 07967.
00:11:27 I'll just read that formally into the record. If you could identify that as your statement.
00:11:33 Yes, it is.
00:11:35 You're very welcome to use the big screen. It ought to come up on the monitor in front of you as well, which you might find is a bit less tiring on the neck.
00:11:42 Yes, I should also say, Mr. Layton, that in front of you on the desk there is a blue file with the hard copy documents in it that I'm going to refer to.
00:11:49 So you can look at that as well. But most witnesses tend to find it easier to use the monitor on the desk.
00:11:55 So there's your MET statement of the 20th of September 2017.
00:12:00 You've also provided a statement to the inquiry under Rule 9, dated the 11th of September 2018.
00:12:08 And that is RBK triple 029034. If we could please have that up on the screen.
00:12:15 There it is. Is that your statement of the inquiry?
00:12:19 Yes.
00:12:21 Can I ask you to turn please to the last page of that statement, which is page 13 in the relativity reference.
00:12:30 And you'll see that there is a statement of truth there with the signature underneath it. Is that your signature?
00:12:35 Yes.
00:12:37 Have you had an opportunity to read both of these statements, your police statement and your inquiry statement, recently?
00:12:42 Yes.
00:12:44 And can you confirm that they are true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?
00:12:47 Yes.
00:12:49 And subject to what you're going to tell us this morning as your evidence to the inquiry?
00:12:54 Yes.
00:12:56 Okay. Now you've also produced a number of exhibits to your inquiry statement.
00:13:03 And I'll just read those formally into the record.
00:13:06 There's NL1, which is your LELO log, RBK triple 029036.
00:13:11 NL2, your duty officer manual 2017, RBK triple 029035.
00:13:19 NL3, your major incident contact sheet, RBK triple 029032.
00:13:26 And NL4, the RBK SMG incident log book, RBK triple 029033.
00:13:34 And I've now read those formally into the record so that they are there.
00:13:37 I'm going to ask you questions this morning, focusing on the events which took place within McAllden on the night of the fire up until about 8 a.m. that morning.
00:13:48 There will of course be other questions that will arise which will form part of phase two of this inquiry, including things like the aftermath of the fire and events later on, on the 14th of June.
00:14:02 Can I start then by asking you some questions about your position and your career?
00:14:07 You are, I think, currently a security officer employed by AME PLC.
00:14:13 Yes, sir.
00:14:14 And they've got the facilities contract with RBKC, is that right?
00:14:18 That is correct.
00:14:19 And I think you joined the borough in October 1995.
00:14:23 Correct.
00:14:24 And prior to your current role, I think you worked as a customer services officer and a security officer and then a hall keeper.
00:14:31 Yes, sir.
00:14:33 Yes, you did.
00:14:34 Now, in addition to those roles, I think you work for the borough now as an on-call borough duty officer.
00:14:43 Correct.
00:14:44 And that's sometimes referred to as a BDO, is that right?
00:14:47 Yes, that is correct.
00:14:48 And also as a local authority liaison officer or LALO.
00:14:53 Correct.
00:14:54 Is it LALO or LALO?
00:14:55 LALO.
00:14:56 Right.
00:14:57 How long have you been a LALO for?
00:14:58 Approximately 2002 I started.
00:15:02 2002?
00:15:03 Yes.
00:15:04 Right.
00:15:05 So up to the night of the fire, you had been a LALO for some 15 years or so?
00:15:10 Yes, I have.
00:15:11 Okay.
00:15:12 Now, in your statement to the inquiry, if I can take you please to paragraph 6.4, which you'll find on page 3, you say, and it'll come up on the monitor in front of you,
00:15:28 page 3 of your inquiry statement.
00:15:31 That's RBK00029034.
00:15:36 At the top of the screen there, I have received training from the borough,
00:15:40 and which includes specific emergency scenarios.
00:15:44 The training included reacting to different emergency scenarios.
00:15:49 Was that training that you received in your capacity as a LALO?
00:15:54 Yes, it was.
00:15:55 And have you completed LALO training?
00:15:59 Well, let me ask you this way.
00:16:00 Are there two levels of training for LALO, level 1 and level 2?
00:16:03 No, there's just one standard of training for LALOs.
00:16:07 Right.
00:16:08 And are you fully trained as a LALO?
00:16:10 Yes, I am, sir.
00:16:11 Now, the training that you refer to in that paragraph, what form did it take?
00:16:15 We did practical exercises, which normally run from the halls at Chelsey Hill Town Hall,
00:16:21 which includes other major services, the LFB, ambulance services, police,
00:16:27 and it's getting together to actually formalise ways of doing things in certain situations.
00:16:34 And did that training include dealing with a fire?
00:16:40 A tower block, no.
00:16:42 But a fire, yes?
00:16:44 A fire as in an event, yes.
00:16:47 How big an event did that train?
00:16:49 How big a fire event?
00:16:51 The fire itself was small, but it was in some of the things, it was a thing that we've done for the Chelsey Flower Show, where we dealt with the fire.
00:17:01 I see.
00:17:02 And did that event on which you were trained include how to deal with a major incident, as understood in the JEZIP interoperability framework?
00:17:17 Yes, it did.
00:17:18 It did.
00:17:18 It did.
00:17:21 Are you familiar with the JEZIP interoperability framework?
00:17:25 No, I'm not.
00:17:26 Right.
00:17:27 Have you ever had any training on it?
00:17:28 Not specifically to that, no, sir.
00:17:30 Right.
00:17:31 Have you ever had any training on the London Resilience Partnership Strategic Coordination Protocol?
00:17:37 I have had training, certain amount of training with the resilience, but only from our local authority side.
00:17:44 And did that training involve dealing with a major incident?
00:17:48 Did it involve a fire major incident?
00:17:50 That one, no.
00:17:52 Right.
00:17:53 What was the training that you received?
00:17:55 That was, I think it was a terrorist event, that one.
00:18:00 And what about the LEL, sorry, the LESLP major incident procedure manual?
00:18:07 Are you familiar with that?
00:18:08 Fairly familiar, yes, sir.
00:18:10 Not 100%.
00:18:11 Very familiar, but not 100%.
00:18:13 Have you ever had training on the LESLP major incident manual?
00:18:16 Manual?
00:18:18 Locally, yes.
00:18:19 And what was that training, what did that involve?
00:18:21 I can't remember the exact details, but that was training that was done at Kensington Town Hall.
00:18:27 Did that involve a major fire?
00:18:30 I don't think so, no, sir.
00:18:32 Right.
00:18:33 Prior to the night of the 13th, 14th of June 2017, when was the last training session on any of these protocols or procedures that you received?
00:18:44 Probably 18 months to two years.
00:18:49 And who delivered that training?
00:18:52 The Royal Borough of Kensington, Chelsea.
00:18:54 In-house or was it outsourced?
00:18:57 In-house.
00:18:58 And what department within the borough?
00:19:03 The emergency planning team.
00:19:05 Who heads the emergency planning team?
00:19:07 David Kerry.
00:19:08 David Kerry.
00:19:10 Right.
00:19:11 Now, in terms of your experience as a LELO, you say at paragraph 6.6 of your statement, still on the same page up there on the screen,
00:19:21 I've dealt with quite a few major incidents through the years.
00:19:25 For example, I was a LELO at a large gas leak, a shooting, as well as at the Trellick Towers fire.
00:19:33 The Trellick Towers fire, I think, was April 2017.
00:19:37 Yes.
00:19:38 It was precise, the 19th of April 2017.
00:19:42 In what capacity were you involved with that fire?
00:19:46 As a LELO.
00:19:48 And what did you do in that capacity at that fire?
00:19:52 I attended site, liaised with the emergency services.
00:19:58 Compared to Grampel, this was, I suppose, simple because the procedure that they had in place with the fire services
00:20:08 and the building itself worked, and we didn't even need to set up a rest centre for that one.
00:20:15 No.
00:20:17 Were there any lessons as a LELO that you took away from the Trellick Tower?
00:20:24 I would say no, because all the procedures and effects worked very well on that one.
00:20:31 Other than the Trellick Tower fire, how many other fire incidents of substance have you been involved as a LELO in?
00:20:41 Before Trellick Tower, no real major fires.
00:20:48 And prior to Grampel Tower, were there any incidents which had been declared a major incident in which you acted as a LELO?
00:21:01 Not for a very long time.
00:21:04 The last one was possibly the, I'm not sure whether it was the baby falling out of the block of flats or the shooting on King's Road.
00:21:18 And when were those?
00:21:20 They were not escalated to a high level of emergencies.
00:21:24 Right. And there are different levels of major incidents, aren't there?
00:21:27 Yes.
00:21:27 As we'll see in a moment. When were those events?
00:21:32 I can't remember the exact dates.
00:21:36 Now turning to the night of the fire itself and your role on the night, you have described your role as a LELO in your statement at paragraph 6.
00:21:49 And it's also set out in the duty officer manual.
00:21:53 If I can just take you to that. It's RBK00029035.
00:22:06 And at page 1 you can see that this is the borough duty officer duty silver manual 2017.
00:22:13 Just to be clear, was this the relevant current document as at the night of the fire?
00:22:20 Yes it was.
00:22:20 And we can see the date at the bottom, 24th April 2017. Can I ask you please to turn to page 39 first of all in that document.
00:22:33 Under CMP 5.4, page 39.
00:22:41 CMP 5.4. And CMP stands for, will you tell me what it stands for?
00:22:47 I can't remember.
00:22:49 Contingency management plan?
00:22:51 Yes sir.
00:22:52 Right.
00:22:53 Okay. 39 says this.
00:22:56 The LELO will represent the council at the scene of an incident or emergency as council silver with full authority to call upon and deploy council as required.
00:23:05 Key tasks are to attend the scene when called upon by the emergency services, provide a single point of contact between the emergency services and the council, and a link between the incident scene and the emergency services.
00:23:17 And the BEC, just pausing there, could you just tell us what the BEC is?
00:23:22 The Bury Military Command Centre.
00:23:25 And one was set up on the night wasn't it?
00:23:28 Yes it was.
00:23:29 And who, just to tell us while we're on this, who was in charge of the BEC at the time?
00:23:32 David Kerry.
00:23:33 David Kerry. Now just looking down at the rest of the bullet points, I'm not going to read them all out aloud to you, you can see what they are.
00:23:42 Would you agree that all of these functions were part of your role on the night?
00:23:47 And if you then go back a page in the duty silver manual to page 38, you can see that at the top of the page, under the section major emergencies 10 and 10.1, local authority liaison officer, it says this.
00:24:11 If a major emergency occurs out of hours, the borough duty officer will be informed of it by the out of hours service.
00:24:18 The BDO will then be responsible for assessing the scale of the emergency and if appropriate, active, well that should be active eight, the contingency management plan.
00:24:28 On the night of the fire were you aware that that was what you had to do as the lay low on duty?
00:24:32 And then going on, you can see a longish list of things that have to happen in order to activate the contingency management plan, the CMP.
00:24:49 And the first is to evaluate, or the second is to evaluate the level of the emergency.
00:24:53 And if level one, deal with using the borough duty officer manual and pass to the relevant service for action, if level two or three start an emergency event log, we can see that.
00:25:06 First of all, as the borough lay low on that night, did you activate the RBKC contingency management plan?
00:25:17 Yes I did.
00:25:19 And did you evaluate the level of the emergency?
00:25:23 Yes. From the information I had already received from GDIC, the out of hours call management service, I determined that for me it was a major instance.
00:25:33 I immediately contacted David Kerry to instigate the BEC.
00:25:37 Yes. And did you start an emergency event log as per this checklist?
00:25:45 My own list, yes sir.
00:25:46 Your own list. Yes. And the emergency event log, is that something that's up to the individual lay low or is there a format?
00:25:55 I was not aware of a specific format at that time.
00:25:58 Right. And then looking at the checklist, a little bit lower down, it says, if an external emergency, and this is three bullet points up from the bottom,
00:26:16 call the first available designated activation officer, CNX1, and provide a briefing on the incident, repeating the information on the emergency report form. Did you do that?
00:26:26 I contacted David Kerry immediately.
00:26:28 Right. And he was the designated activation officer. Was it he who activated the RBKC plan or was it you?
00:26:34 Yes, it was he who activated the plan.
00:26:36 Right. Now, going, we'll come back to this if we need to, going back to the statement, your statement.
00:26:50 Can I take you please to paragraph 8 on page 3?
00:26:56 And you say there towards the bottom of the page, on the night of the Grenfell Tower fire, I was contacted just after 2am by GDIT,
00:27:03 the out of hours call answering service for the borough.
00:27:07 I was informed that there had been a fire reported at Grenfell Tower and that there was possibly three or four fatalities.
00:27:13 GDIT told me that the emergency services were on site, and I recall being told that there were 15 pumps in attendance.
00:27:21 I knew from this information that this was a serious incident and would require a major response.
00:27:26 Now, I've read that all to you so that you've got the whole of your evidence in mind, Mr. Layton.
00:27:31 But first of all, you say you were contacted just after 2am. How do you remember that it was just after 2am?
00:27:43 I think I looked at my phone at the time because it was the middle of the night and I was woken by the call.
00:27:54 Right. Now, in your police witness statement, and we can look at it if we need to, you said that it was approximately 2.10am.
00:28:01 Do you remember saying that to the police and that being in your statement?
00:28:05 Yes.
00:28:07 When you made your statement in September 2017, did you recall that time or did you look at a document?
00:28:13 No. When I made the statement in September 2017, I had no documentation to support anything I was saying at that time
00:28:23 because I hadn't received my notes back from...
00:28:26 When I finished as lay low at 7 o'clock in the morning, I handed over my notes to Mike Rumble who had actually carried on doing that day.
00:28:36 Yes, I see. So when you then came to make your statement for the inquiry in September this year and put just after 2am in paragraph 8,
00:28:46 did you look at a document then to refresh your memory?
00:28:50 Not at the time, no.
00:28:52 Right. So can you account for the difference between 2.10am and just after 2am?
00:28:58 It may not sound a lot, but is there a reason for the difference?
00:29:01 No, I couldn't say.
00:29:03 Now, was the message you refer to from GDIT the first message or attempt to contact you?
00:29:10 Yes.
00:29:12 How long did your call with GDIT last?
00:29:16 I would say no more than about two to three minutes.
00:29:19 Do you remember who you spoke to?
00:29:20 No, I do not.
00:29:22 Do you remember what information you were given beyond what we see on the page at paragraph 8?
00:29:31 No, I don't.
00:29:34 And you say that you recall being told there were 15 pumps in attendance. Are you confident that it was 15?
00:29:45 I'm pretty confident, yes.
00:29:47 Right.
00:29:49 Nobody said at this stage that it was 40?
00:29:54 No.
00:29:55 Or even 25?
00:29:56 No.
00:29:57 All right. And just tell me, GDIT, is that the out of hours service?
00:30:03 That is the out of hours service, yes.
00:30:05 And do you know who had contacted GDIT in order to get them to call you?
00:30:11 That would have been the London Fire Brigade.
00:30:13 Right.
00:30:14 And do you know when GDIT had been called?
00:30:19 Later, when I took the call they said they had just received the call.
00:30:25 I see. Did the person you spoke to at GDIT tell you that a major incident had been called?
00:30:39 Yes.
00:30:40 Did they tell you who had called the major incident or declared the major incident?
00:30:44 It came from the LFB.
00:30:46 It came from the LFB?
00:30:48 Yes.
00:30:49 Right. Okay. Did the caller tell you that the Metropolitan Police had declared a major incident?
00:30:59 No, not that I'm aware of.
00:31:00 Now, at paragraph nine of your statement you say that I immediately called David Kerry to let him know.
00:31:15 So that was, I'm assuming, straight after your call from GDIT was over.
00:31:22 And you've confirmed, I think, that he was the contingency planning manager or the emergency planning officer.
00:31:27 Yeah.
00:31:27 Is there a difference between those two descriptions of his roles?
00:31:31 There's two roles, sir.
00:31:33 There are two roles. What's the difference between the contingency planning manager and the emergency planning officer?
00:31:38 I don't know what they define that as, sir.
00:31:41 Okay. All right.
00:31:43 And you, I think, said that he's the activation officer within the LELO procedure we've seen on page 38 of the silver manual.
00:31:49 Silver manual. We can see his emergency event log sheet because he opened one and that's RBEK00028849.
00:31:59 We can just have that, please, up on the screen.
00:32:07 And he, it looks as if he opened that at 0221 with your call, call from Nick Layton, borough duty officer.
00:32:19 Fire at Grenfell Tower. Police called GDIT at 02-03.
00:32:25 Evacuees, persons trapped, casualties, RVP at Beaumont Road.
00:32:30 Now, first of all, do you know why or can you account for the time lag or time elapse between 02-03 when, as he says, the police called GDIT
00:32:49 and 02-21 when you call him according to his log?
00:32:53 No, I cannot.
00:32:55 When he wrote police called GDIT, is that right, to the best of your recollection?
00:33:03 If he's put that, that is confirmed that I would be.
00:33:06 Right. So, to doing the best you can, does it, does that tell us that when GDIT called you, they told you that the police had called them?
00:33:15 It is possible.
00:33:17 And, and the?
00:33:19 I'm not going to, I cannot say for definite.
00:33:21 That would, right, no, sure. Does that tell us then that the police told you that the LFB had declared a major incident?
00:33:29 I can't say so.
00:33:31 Right. How certain are you that you told David Kerry that it was the police who called GDIT at that time?
00:33:40 I would say that's accurate that I really said that to him.
00:33:44 Right. Now, at paragraph nine of your statement, if we can go back to that please, you say that you relayed to him the scale of the emergency.
00:33:59 This is three lines up from the beginning, from the end of the paragraph. You say, during my initial call to David, I relayed to him the scale of the emergency.
00:34:07 Did you tell him they were, did you tell him there were casualties?
00:34:10 Yes, I did.
00:34:11 Did you say to him that the Met had declared a major incident?
00:34:14 No, I didn't.
00:34:16 Did you tell him that the Met had declared a major incident?
00:34:20 Yes, I did.
00:34:22 Did you tell him that the Met had declared a major incident?
00:34:25 No, I didn't.
00:34:26 No, I didn't.
00:34:28 Did you tell him that a major incident had been declared?
00:34:32 I told him that this was a major incident and that we needed to set up the Met.
00:34:38 Right. Did you tell him that the LFB had declared a major incident?
00:34:41 I can't remember.
00:34:43 Right. Would you ordinarily expect to be told, based on the training and the experience that you had, that one or other or both of the LFB and the Metropolitan Police
00:34:56 had declared a major incident?
00:34:59 Not always.
00:35:01 They would tell us, normally the call would come through, that they require a lay low for a major incident as such, but it's the level of the incident.
00:35:12 I think you touched on this earlier on this morning, but were you told or did you understand that this incident was a level three major incident, as defined in the contingency management plan?
00:35:35 That was my judgment at the time.
00:35:37 Let's just have a look at that. It's RBK0004396, page 34.
00:35:46 This is paragraph 4, section 4.5 within the CMP.
00:36:13 It's a scale and impact. You can see that there are three levels. Level one, which is yellow, minor, limited. Level two, which is amber, medium, disruptive. Level three, which is red, major, severe.
00:36:31 So when you say in your statement, when you tell us that you thought this was major, is that what you're referring to?
00:36:38 Yes, sir.
00:36:38 Yes, sir. Right. And had you made the assessment of impact on the community and council response that we can see in those two blocks there, of the document?
00:36:51 Yes.
00:36:52 Now, in paragraph 10 of your statement, if we can move forward to that, Mr. Layton, page 4 of the statement, you say, in his role as contingency planning manager, David would then escalate the matter and notify all other necessary people.
00:37:15 He would also set up the borough's BEC, Borough Emergency Control Centre. This is where the borough would manage the incident and its response. People on the ground such as myself as Lalo pass information to BEC and BEC coordinate and manage everything going on.
00:37:29 And then you give an example. And then you say at the end, the Lalo is the eyes and ears for the BEC. Now, first of all, do you know where the BEC for this incident was to be set up?
00:37:42 Initially, it would have been at David Kerry's home because he would have set up on his laptop to get things going. Then it would be moved over to the town hall where we have a control centre purposely designed.
00:37:57 And who assisted David Kerry set the BEC up in its early stages?
00:38:04 I do not know.
00:38:06 Who then began to assist David Kerry once he began to pull in staff to help him? Do you know?
00:38:12 I do not know.
00:38:15 Did you and David Kerry discuss on your first call what information, for example, about the residence or about the building you might need to get hold of or give to the LFB?
00:38:28 I do not know.
00:38:30 When we made our first call, I was actually still back in location at home. I passed on all the relevant details and told them that I would update them once I got to the actual scene.
00:38:43 Right.
00:38:44 Once you had finished updating David Kerry on that first call, did you go then directly to the scene?
00:39:02 Yes.
00:39:04 Do you know how long it took you to get to the scene after that call?
00:39:06 A bit longer than normal because I did drive over to that area and then I had to find somewhere to park quite a distance away and then I walked the remainder.
00:39:15 And do you say in your statement at paragraph 11, if we can just move to that, still on page 4 of your statement, at paragraph 11, I arrived at the scene of the fire shortly after 2.30am?
00:39:29 Approximately, yes.
00:39:30 And indeed, just to pin this to a contemporaneous document, your LELO log, if we can just go to that, shows that it's at RBK00029036.
00:39:48 And if you go to the very top of that page, you can see, and this is the first page of that document, on-site 2.30.
00:40:00 Now, just underneath number one, very top of the page, on-site 2.30.
00:40:10 This looks like a piece of paper taken from a pad.
00:40:14 Is this a private piece of paper you had?
00:40:16 It's a notepad that I keep in my folder.
00:40:18 Right, I see.
00:40:20 It's not a formal document that's required by or is a format of any kind.
00:40:24 Okay. And did you start recording the events of that night as soon as you finished the call with David Carey or before?
00:40:36 I started recording as soon as I got to the site.
00:40:39 As soon as you got to the site, okay.
00:40:41 And you can see that that's about 2.30.
00:40:43 Now, you may not know this, but Mike Rumble used an incident pack from another borough, Lambeth, I believe.
00:40:52 Hammersmith probably, sir.
00:40:54 Or is it Hammersmith? Okay.
00:40:56 Did it occur to you to use a Laylow incident pack from another borough?
00:41:03 No.
00:41:04 Okay.
00:41:05 Why is that?
00:41:06 I don't normally have associations with other boroughs at the time.
00:41:11 Is it right that since the fire, RBKAC has introduced an incident logbook?
00:41:16 Yes, it is.
00:41:16 Okay. Now, when you arrived, were you wearing any either jacket or any other kind of external indication?
00:41:24 No.
00:41:25 Which told people you were from RBKAC?
00:41:27 No.
00:41:28 Why is that?
00:41:29 I didn't have any.
00:41:30 Does one normally have one?
00:41:32 I have now, but I didn't at that time.
00:41:35 You didn't at that time.
00:41:37 Did the council issue any Laylows with any kind of external indication that they were a Laylow at a scene?
00:41:42 As far as I'm aware, not at that time.
00:41:45 Not at that time. Right.
00:41:47 Now, I think we can pin down your arrival at the command unit with some precision.
00:41:59 I just wanted to take you to your statement first of all.
00:42:03 Paragraph 13, you say, I walked towards the tower until I got to a police cordon and asked them where the command station was.
00:42:12 I showed them my ID.
00:42:14 They directed me in the direction of the command center, which was a fire truck at the base of the tower situated on Bowmore Road near Kensington Leisure Center.
00:42:24 You describe what you were seeing from the tower or in the tower, at the tower, on your way.
00:42:29 I just want to play a short clip that has already been shown to the inquiry, Mr. Layton, which is a clip of video from Inspector Thatcher's body wall.
00:42:42 It's a video footage. It's about a minute of that.
00:42:46 I just ought to give you fair warning that it may bring back memories of the night itself.
00:42:54 And so if you want to break at any point during seeing it, all you have to do is say so.
00:43:00 It's INQ.
00:43:02 Before we put it up, you're comfortable with this, I hope?
00:43:05 Yes.
00:43:07 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:43:08 It's INQ, Quinn Tupel 0524.
00:43:38 Can I give you guys a... sorry, do you ask the I?
00:43:41 This is Chuck from the Council.
00:43:43 Lovely job.
00:43:45 Can we get the Academy open?
00:43:47 I've got colleagues working on opening up the rest of the centre already.
00:43:50 We've got buses coming to take people to wherever you are, just to house when they come off.
00:43:54 Excellent news.
00:43:56 I'm listening.
00:43:58 Right. Can you just wait here then, so I know where you are. What's your name again, sir?
00:44:03 Nick Layton.
00:44:05 Oh, I spoke to you the other day.
00:44:06 Was it on the...
00:44:08 We had two buses off the Sheffields Bush, not too far away, and...
00:44:15 Now, we've seen that.
00:44:20 Was that the moment when, or the time at which you were arriving at the command unit and presenting yourself there?
00:44:28 I couldn't say for definite, sir.
00:44:29 Okay. Does that trigger a recollection as to whether that was the first time, or around about that time, that you arrived at the command unit?
00:44:36 I would say pretty close.
00:44:39 Okay. Now, we've got an adjusted time for that as 2.47, and that clip runs from 2.47 to 2.47.40.
00:44:49 Can I just ask you, when you got, or arrived, at Grenfell Tower, did you go straight to the command unit, or was that the first time?
00:44:59 Or did you do other things first?
00:45:01 I went straight to the command unit.
00:45:05 Right. So, would that help us pin your arrival time at the incident more accurately to about 2.47?
00:45:15 I would say yes, sir.
00:45:17 Okay. Now, once you got to the command unit, as we've seen from that clip, did you liaise with anybody from the London Fire Brigade?
00:45:24 Yes, I reported straight into the London Fire Brigade to...
00:45:27 Do you remember...
00:45:29 ...and I was there, given my details, contact numbers.
00:45:32 Do you remember who you reported to?
00:45:34 No, I don't.
00:45:36 Do you remember what rank? Could you tell what rank?
00:45:39 No, I don't know the ranking system, but he introduced himself as the incident commander at the time.
00:45:45 Right. And did the incident commander give you any particular instructions at that time?
00:45:57 No, sir. And the first thing that they asked for was to... they wanted to open up the sports centre as a temporary mortuary, which I took the decision myself and agreed to.
00:46:12 Although I didn't have any keys, I gave them permission to force entry.
00:46:19 I'll come back to that in a moment. I'm going to pick it up in your statement.
00:46:22 But just before I do, can I ask you, did you speak to the... apart from what we've just seen when you spoke to Inspector Thatcher, did you liaise with the police in more general terms about what you should be doing?
00:46:34 I spoke to the police, told them I was there to give them any assistance that is required. We obviously already knew that we were in need of rest centres.
00:46:43 I think it was the police that said they had an offer from Belluccio's to be set up as a rest centre.
00:46:53 Yes. Now coming back to what you just said about what you were told by the incident commander, can I go please to paragraph 14 of your statement, which is over the page on page 5.
00:47:05 You say that upon my arrival at the command centre, the first thing I was told by the incident controller was that they required a mortuary to be set up in which to move the deceased, as there was already bodies lying around which needed to be moved.
00:47:20 The emergency services asked if they could set up the mortuary in the adjacent sports centre. Whilst I did not have any keys to access the sports centre, I immediately gave permission for them to force entry to allow it to be used.
00:47:31 And then you go on to talk about tents and temporary mortuary. From your last answer, but one, I think that was the incident commander who told you that.
00:47:43 Yes.
00:47:45 Did you know at the time that his name was Assistant Commissioner Row, Andy Row?
00:47:49 It's possible that he did tell me, sir.
00:47:50 Right. And who asked you to set up the mortuary in the sports centre? You say the emergency services, but who? Was it the LFB or the police?
00:48:10 I'm going by that. I would say the LFB, sir, if that's not my statement.
00:48:13 Okay.
00:48:14 Now, you didn't have the keys, did you?
00:48:16 No, sir.
00:48:17 So you gave permission for the door to be broken down?
00:48:19 Yes.
00:48:20 Do you know who broke the door down into the sports centre?
00:48:24 No, I don't.
00:48:27 Do you know somebody called Michael Perkins? Does that name ring a bell?
00:48:31 The name rings a bell from possibly the second rest centre that we set up.
00:48:36 Did he have a pair of, or set of keys to the sports centre?
00:48:39 Not in the time that we have.
00:48:42 Right. Now, in terms of your role for the rest of the night, you say moving forward in your statement to Perkins, you're going to be the first person to be called to the rest centre.
00:48:52 Not in the time that we have.
00:48:54 Right. Now, in terms of your role for the rest of the night, you say moving forward in your statement to paragraph 21, that, and this is the last three lines of that paragraph,
00:49:08 my duty that night was to report on what was happening with the survivors and to organise rest centres for them.
00:49:17 David Kerry was requesting the Red Cross to attend at each of the rest centres.
00:49:22 Was that the only task that you were required to do?
00:49:28 At various points I was doing, bits and pieces, I was lazy also at times with the LAS to try and organise if we could have paramedics at the rest centres that we were setting up, and bits and pieces, dealing with any requests as it came through.
00:49:47 Right. And looking back at the duty officer manual, we don't need to necessarily to do that, but you understood that, is this right, that you were the single point of contact between the emergency services and the council?
00:50:01 Yes.
00:50:02 And also a link between the incident scene and the BEC?
00:50:05 Yes.
00:50:07 And that also you had to continue to monitor the council's requirements on an ongoing basis throughout the night?
00:50:15 Yes.
00:50:15 So you understood that those were your responsibilities?
00:50:18 Yes.
00:50:19 Now, you go on to say, in the same paragraph, in the middle of that paragraph, I was mainly situated with the Silver Fire Command on base level, which was a fire truck placed within the grounds of Grenfell Tower, that was just above where we just looked at.
00:50:39 Yes.
00:50:39 Now, that's, I'm assuming, the LFB command unit that we've just seen in the video clip?
00:50:45 Yes.
00:50:46 Which we've called CU8. Where did you stand or base yourself?
00:50:50 Literally right outside the vehicle.
00:50:52 Right. And did you always stay there, or did you leave CU8 command unit to carry out other tasks?
00:51:00 I did leave on occasions.
00:51:02 Right. How long did you spend away from the command unit, do you think, on those occasions?
00:51:05 Probably five or ten minutes at a time.
00:51:09 Where did you go?
00:51:11 I did go around checking other areas to see if I could see anything that we could do directly, but I didn't travel too far from the command centre because I was the point of contact there.
00:51:23 Yes.
00:51:24 And was there any particular LFB officer with whom you were in regular contact outside the Silver meetings?
00:51:32 No.
00:51:32 So did you talk to them through the hatch, the window hatch outside of the command unit?
00:51:38 If they needed anything, they would call me back to the vehicle. As I was outside, most of the time they would speak to me outside the vehicle.
00:51:48 Most of the time they would speak to me outside the vehicle.
00:51:53 Now you say that you were the first LELO to arrive before being joined by Mike Rumble.
00:52:06 And this is paragraph 21 of your statement at the very top of that paragraph.
00:52:12 And you put his time of arrival at 3.20am.
00:52:17 Approximately.
00:52:18 Approximately 3.20am as support LELO.
00:52:23 Now I just want to explore a timing point with you Mr. Layton.
00:52:27 Can I ask you please to go to your notes at RBK00029036 at page one.
00:52:34 We looked at it before.
00:52:36 And can I ask you to look at item five in the left hand column.
00:52:44 A third of the way down the page where it says Mike on site 3.10.
00:52:48 Now given that is in your contemporaneous note, can you explain why your statement says 3.20?
00:52:57 No I can't. I'd say that the time there is more accurate.
00:53:01 So the time in your contemporaneous note is more accurate than your statement?
00:53:04 Yes.
00:53:05 Right, thank you.
00:53:06 Now looking at paragraph 24 of your statement if we can, you say that you attended Silver meeting at 3.20am.
00:53:18 And in the fourth line of that paragraph you say the first Silver meeting took place at 03.15am.
00:53:30 And the London Fire Brigade's incident control commander chaired these meetings and they were minuted by the LFB.
00:53:36 Each representative updated on what service they were providing, what resources they had and how they were doing.
00:53:42 I provided an update on the rest centres.
00:53:44 Now do you remember whether Mike Rumble arrived before or after that TCM, that first TCM?
00:53:55 I think it was just before.
00:53:57 Right.
00:54:01 Now you've described his role as that of a support lay low.
00:54:05 Can you explain that role further for us?
00:54:07 Yeah, if I needed any assistance there he could provide it. He could go around to other areas if required.
00:54:17 Did you divide your responsibilities between you?
00:54:20 No we didn't.
00:54:21 You didn't.
00:54:22 So he was basically a helper for you at that time?
00:54:25 Yes.
00:54:26 Now I'm not going to ask you about what you say at paragraphs 14 and 15 in your statement earlier on about the rest centres.
00:54:36 That will be explored at a later stage in this inquiry.
00:54:39 So I'm going to ask you about this point in the night.
00:54:42 Dealing with the first TCM tactical coordination meeting, which you say took place at 3.15am.
00:54:55 Can I just take you back to your lay low log at page one?
00:54:59 That's RBK00029036 again.
00:55:02 And you see under item six in the left hand column two thirds of the way down the page, silver meat, 3.15.
00:55:14 When you put 3.15 in your statement at paragraph 24, is that where, is this document where you got that time from?
00:55:22 Yes.
00:55:22 Now we can see what you've written there under silver meat 3.15, and your own assistant commissioner, 100 still in, trapped to prox, etc.
00:55:41 We can read that.
00:55:41 At that point, did you, or during that meeting, did you understand clearly that occupants of the building were now being told to self evacuate?
00:55:56 No.
00:55:57 Was there any discussion you can recall of that having been, or that being the advice now being given by the LFB to the occupants of the building who called?
00:56:11 They did. You see my notes there. There's a note there to self evacuate.
00:56:16 Self evacuate. So you've picked that up there. Can you just expand on what was being said at the meeting which led you to write self evacuate?
00:56:27 I would say that during that meeting that they stated that the advice would now be given to self evacuate the building.
00:56:35 Do you remember whether there was any discussion about when that advice had begun to be given?
00:56:42 Did you ask?
00:56:43 No.
00:56:45 Did you think at that time that the advice to self evacuate might have an impact on your role as LELO in any way?
00:56:54 Yes.
00:56:56 In what way?
00:56:57 In the fact that we would need more resources for rest centres.
00:57:02 Anything else?
00:57:04 Not at that time, no.
00:57:11 Did you think at that time that you might need to put in place some kind of system to identify who was coming out of the building, self evacuating, and link them to particular flats?
00:57:24 No.
00:57:25 Now it doesn't appear from your record of that meeting that you were asked for plans of the building or a list of residents.
00:57:37 Do you remember whether you were in fact at that meeting asked for plans of the building?
00:57:43 No.
00:57:44 Do you remember whether you were asked for a list of residents at that meeting?
00:57:48 No.
00:57:49 Well when you say no do you mean you recall that you weren't asked?
00:57:52 I don't believe I was asked.
00:57:55 No.
00:57:56 All right.
00:57:57 Thank you.
00:57:58 Now I'm going to turn on to the topic of your liaison with TMO staff at the scene.
00:58:24 And this topic lasts a little bit of time.
00:58:28 Let's see how we go.
00:58:30 But I'm going to try and break after another 10 minutes.
00:58:33 So if that's, are you happy to continue?
00:58:36 Yes.
00:58:37 Thank you very much Mr. Baiten.
00:58:39 Can I ask you please to go to paragraph 22 of your statement still on page 7.
00:58:41 And you say there at approximately 3.30 to 3.45 a.m. Robert Black, Chief Executive Officer of Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organization, the TMO arrived with two colleagues from the TMO.
00:59:01 And then you go on to say I spoke directly with him and I'll come back to that.
00:59:04 Just pinpointing that.
00:59:05 Before I ask you about that, can I just ask you to help me with a number of general points about the TMO.
00:59:13 First of all, what did you understand on the night that the role of the TMO would be in responding to an emergency such as this?
00:59:22 It's the TMO's responsibility to cater for all their displaced residents.
00:59:28 You say cater for them.
00:59:30 Yes.
00:59:31 Can you expand?
00:59:32 Yes, we're going to get rest centres where we've actually set them up.
00:59:38 We would expect them to get staffing, look after the residents.
00:59:42 Right.
00:59:44 Now we'll expand, I'll explore that a bit more shortly.
00:59:49 Did you know at that time whether they had an emergency plan of their own?
00:59:53 I didn't know of the emergency plan.
00:59:56 You didn't know of it at all?
00:59:58 No.
00:59:59 Right.
00:59:59 Does that mean that you can't help me answer the question whether they had or hadn't activated their own emergency plan?
01:00:07 No, sir, I could not help you with that.
01:00:11 How did you understand that the TMO would be able to assist you as LELO in the activation and carrying out of the RBKC contingency management plan?
01:00:24 Once the TMO arrived, then I would be asking them to take on certain amount of responsibilities in order to assist us primarily with things like the rest centres in the first place.
01:00:36 When people want information about the residents, I would go directly to the TMO and ask them to supply this information.
01:00:43 Right.
01:00:44 Now let's look at some detail.
01:00:47 At paragraph 22, as we've just seen, you say that the TMO arrived at 3.30 to 3.45.
01:00:52 Now, just to put this to you, Mr Black says that he arrived at the scene at 2.30.
01:01:00 Can you comment on that?
01:01:02 I can only comment as to when I saw him.
01:01:05 Right.
01:01:10 And so the time of 3.30 to 3.45 is the time you saw Mr Black, not necessarily the time when you say he actually arrived at the scene.
01:01:18 Is that right?
01:01:19 Right.
01:01:22 Assuming for the moment that he did arrive at 2.30 and you only saw him an hour to an hour and a quarter later, do you know what he was doing, what his team was doing in the meantime?
01:01:32 No.
01:01:33 The first introduction I had with Robert Black was when he arrived by the command vehicle.
01:01:41 He introduced himself and just said, have you seen the news?
01:01:46 Which I replied, no I haven't.
01:01:47 Right. The news. Okay.
01:01:51 You've put 03.30 to 03.45. Now, do you remember what time the first tactical command meeting finished?
01:01:59 Probably about 3.30.
01:02:02 Just to pinpoint you in a document if I can to help you, can I ask you to be shown the row log, which is Assistant Commissioner Andy Rose log of the night, at MET Quadruple 05.4.
01:02:17 All 04, page 1.
01:02:30 Now this is the first page of an 11 page document of the various things that happened in the command unit after 2.47 once Assistant Commissioner Roe had taken insolent command.
01:02:44 And it's just so you know, this is a record taken by his logist, Jackie McConnachie, and halfway down the page it has 3.20 tactical coordination meeting.
01:02:57 And that then over the page is recorded as closing at 03.32.
01:03:03 If we can see the last entry just above 03.39 on page 2 of that document.
01:03:07 So based on what you told us before about 03.30, 03.32 is about right to the best of your recollection.
01:03:13 Yes. Okay. Now, my question therefore is, when you first saw Robert Black and his colleagues from the TMO, was that after the first TCM had concluded?
01:03:26 Yes.
01:03:27 And where did you see him?
01:03:29 Outside the control vehicle.
01:03:31 I see. So once it concluded, did you come outside and then see him there?
01:03:35 Yes.
01:03:38 And if I can just go back to your note, your notes, RBK 00029036 at page 1.
01:03:46 You...
01:03:56 You can see him there.
01:03:57 You...
01:04:15 You say it's item 8 underneath the redaction.
01:04:21 TMO on site 03.45.
01:04:25 Yes.
01:04:27 Would that tell us more accurately at what time you met Robert Black and his colleagues?
01:04:32 Yes.
01:04:33 Right. Do you know who the two colleagues who arrived with Robert Black were?
01:04:38 No.
01:04:39 Do the names Teresa Brown or Hash Shamshoon mean anything to you?
01:04:44 No.
01:04:45 What about Graham Webb? Does that name mean anything to you?
01:04:48 No.
01:04:48 Did you know or were you told that Hash Shamshoon had been there since 2.15?
01:04:57 No.
01:05:00 When Mr. Black arrived, did you ask him for any information?
01:05:05 No. When he arrived, I told him that we were setting up rest centres and that we needed... he needed to get staff in there to assist.
01:05:13 Is that the only topic that you covered with Mr. Black on that first encounter?
01:05:17 On that first meeting, yes.
01:05:19 Right.
01:05:20 What did he say?
01:05:21 He got on his phone and made some phone calls.
01:05:24 Right.
01:05:29 Were any of the TMO staff wearing anything to make their appearance known?
01:05:35 No.
01:05:36 So no indication that they were TMO people?
01:05:39 No.
01:05:43 Do you know somebody called Ken Wilson?
01:05:47 I know A. Ken Wilson within RBKC.
01:05:52 Okay. Was he a caretaker?
01:05:54 No, not this one.
01:05:58 Paragraph 22 of your statement, you say in the last part of that paragraph, the first instruction I gave to him was for him to arrange for his staff to get to the rest centres and staff them as quickly as possible.
01:06:11 Robert confirmed that he would arrange for this to happen. Did he and his staff then go and do this?
01:06:19 He made a phone call.
01:06:21 What else did he do?
01:06:24 Nothing at all.
01:06:27 Do you know what happened to the TMO staff? Where did they go?
01:06:30 I don't know.
01:06:32 Did they leave the command unit?
01:06:34 At times, yes.
01:06:36 Did you set up any kind of communication link with Robert Black or his staff?
01:06:40 No.
01:06:41 Why is that?
01:06:43 Because most of the time he was actually based with me.
01:06:46 Right. You say most of the time. It's difficult. How much of the time do you think he was based with you?
01:06:53 Probably 70 to 80% of the time.
01:06:56 Right. When you say based with you, you mean?
01:06:58 By the command vehicle.
01:07:00 Right. So a few feet away from you?
01:07:02 Yes.
01:07:04 Did you arrange to get any kind of updates from Robert Black or his staff?
01:07:07 I was chasing him at times for various information that was requested for us.
01:07:13 Once I put in a request, I would chase him to try and get updates as to when the information would be available.
01:07:22 Yes. Thank you.
01:07:24 Mr Chairman, I think now is an appropriate time for a break.
01:07:27 Is that a good point to make on you?
01:07:29 Well, Mr Lacon, we have a break roughly once an hour. I think it's quite tiring giving evidence.
01:07:32 So we'll take 10 minutes off now. I have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence please while you're out of the room.
01:07:40 And if you go with the usher, we'll start again at 20 to 11.
01:07:44 Alright? If you'd like to go with the usher, she'll look after you.
01:08:02 Alright. 20 to 11 please.
01:08:32 Thank you.
01:09:02 Thank you.
01:09:32 Thank you.
01:10:02 Thank you.
01:10:32 Thank you.
01:11:02 Thank you.
01:11:32 Thank you.
01:12:02 Thank you.
01:12:32 Thank you.
01:13:02 Thank you.
01:13:32 Thank you.
01:14:02 Thank you.
01:14:32 Thank you.
01:15:02 Thank you.
01:15:32 Thank you.
01:16:02 Thank you.
01:16:32 Thank you.
01:17:02 Thank you.
01:17:32 Thank you.
01:18:02 Thank you.
01:18:32 Thank you.
01:19:02 Thank you.
01:19:32 Thank you.
01:20:02 Thank you.
01:20:32 Could you ask Mr. Leighton to come back in please?
01:20:55 Right Mr. Leighton, you happy to carry on?
01:20:57 Yes please.
01:20:58 Thank you very much. Yes Mr. Milley.
01:20:59 Mr. Leighton, thank you for coming back to us.
01:21:01 Paragraph 25 of your statement, if I can take you to that please,
01:21:05 on page 7 of your statement, you can see that you say there,
01:21:10 at 04.15 a.m. the fire brigade asked me to arrange for a dangerous structures officer
01:21:16 to attend the site as there were concerns regarding the stability of the tower.
01:21:21 Now, 04.15 is before the second tactical coordination meeting took place.
01:21:33 Yes.
01:21:34 And we have that starting at 04.34 and I'll come back to that.
01:21:38 If you can go to your note please, RBK00029036 page 1,
01:21:47 we can see under item 9, or against item 9, DS rec.
01:21:56 Recl.
01:21:57 Recl.
01:21:58 Recl.
01:21:59 Blue light 16.15.
01:22:02 Now first of all, 16.15, was that an error for?
01:22:06 That is definitely.
01:22:07 Now, what led you to write the time, let's assume it's 04.15,
01:22:13 what led you to write the time of 04.15 when you put that down?
01:22:19 What made me put that down, I don't know.
01:22:21 Do you think it's right or do you think it's wrong?
01:22:23 I think 04.15 was approximately the right time.
01:22:26 Okay. Now, let's just follow that through a little bit.
01:22:29 Were you aware prior to 04.15 that there were serious concerns
01:22:34 regarding the structural integrity of the building?
01:22:37 There was mention about on the corners of an earlier meeting
01:22:43 but I only said that to be the stuff that was on the walls on the outside.
01:22:51 And that, at the earlier meeting, that's the first silver TCM?
01:22:57 Yeah.
01:22:58 Which started at 03.20 and ended at 03.32 or thereabouts?
01:23:02 Yes.
01:23:03 And if you look at your own note, I think you say under item 6,
01:23:09 fall items up from the end of that unsavable building pot collapse.
01:23:14 Is that your record?
01:23:15 That is my record.
01:23:16 I see.
01:23:17 So that's the first time when you realised, is this right,
01:23:19 that there was a concern regarding the structural integrity of the building?
01:23:23 Yes.
01:23:24 Right.
01:23:25 And just for the record, that ties into the Andy Rowe log
01:23:29 at page 2 of NET0005404 and I'm not going to show you that.
01:23:34 Now, were you aware prior to the start of that first silver meeting, 03.20,
01:23:43 whether there was a request for a dangerous structure engineer?
01:23:50 No, I wasn't.
01:23:51 You weren't.
01:23:52 Can I just show you one or two entries in a document
01:23:54 you will most likely not have seen before,
01:23:57 which is the short incident log produced by the LFB,
01:24:02 which is MET00013830.
01:24:18 And if I can ask you please to go in that document to page 22.
01:24:22 And look at the time mark of 02.17.36.
01:24:26 Do you think it might be good to tell Mr. Layden what this document is
01:24:30 so he understands the question?
01:24:31 Yes.
01:24:32 I will certainly do that, Mr. Chairman, of course.
01:24:35 This is the short incident log produced by or created by the London Fire Brigade,
01:24:40 which is a log created from a longer log,
01:24:44 which records all the messages that were sent to the building,
01:24:49 which is a log which records all the messages coming through the control room,
01:24:55 supposed to record all the messages coming through the control room,
01:24:58 the LFB control room, on the night of the fire.
01:25:01 And we can see the time marks on the left-hand column,
01:25:06 and in the second column from the left we've got the person
01:25:08 who put the message into the system,
01:25:11 and then what kind of message it is.
01:25:14 And at 02.17.36, SAD, who is Sharon Darby, the radio operator,
01:25:19 puts in a service request, EMG CU8 request,
01:25:24 and that's the command unit,
01:25:26 requests dangerous structure engineer,
01:25:28 gas and electricity board, and local authority liaison officer.
01:25:34 My question is, were you aware from the moment you arrived
01:25:40 at the incident ground that requests had been made
01:25:43 for a dangerous structures engineer?
01:25:46 No, not that I recall.
01:25:52 Did you discuss a dangerous structures engineer at your first
01:25:56 or during your first briefing when you arrived at the command unit?
01:26:00 No.
01:26:01 If I can ask you just to look at a second message,
01:26:05 which is page 23, it's the same question,
01:26:09 just to pick all these up,
01:26:10 page 23, time mark of 02.38.21,
01:26:18 there's another service request at that time,
01:26:21 marked AG, which we believe is Angie Gotts,
01:26:25 a control room officer at Stratford on the night,
01:26:28 and it says again, CU8 request dangerous structure engineer,
01:26:32 so she's recording that the command unit was calling
01:26:35 for a dangerous structure engineer.
01:26:36 Were you aware at around that time
01:26:38 that a dangerous structure engineer had been called for?
01:26:40 No.
01:26:41 Then again, page 24,
01:26:48 time mark of 03.15.32,
01:26:54 two-thirds of the way down the page,
01:26:58 03.15.32, SAD, Sharon Darby again, Key, EMG, CU8,
01:27:03 request urgent attendance of dangerous structure engineer
01:27:06 and stress this is a matter of urgency and priority.
01:27:09 Now we know that you are on the incident ground at this time,
01:27:14 you've had your first briefing some 25 minutes or so before
01:27:20 because we saw the body worn video clip.
01:27:23 Do you remember being told or having any discussion
01:27:26 to the effect that the command unit was requesting
01:27:30 urgent attendance of a dangerous structure engineer?
01:27:33 No.
01:27:36 So is that right?
01:27:37 So is it right that nobody involved you in that discussion
01:27:42 even though you were standing there?
01:27:44 No, they didn't.
01:27:45 Okay.
01:27:46 Now we have a call
01:27:51 recorded at, and I'll just show you the transcript,
01:27:55 it's LFB.
01:27:59 All right, okay.
01:28:00 All right.
01:28:01 So we have a call,
01:28:02 let me try it this way.
01:28:08 Do you know or have any knowledge of any other call
01:28:12 made by the control room to RBKC at 03.17
01:28:18 asking for a dangerous structures engineer?
01:28:21 No.
01:28:22 Right.
01:28:23 Now if we can go to the next slide,
01:28:32 back then to the first meeting
01:28:36 of silver at 03.20,
01:28:43 can I just put this question to you?
01:28:45 Do you remember hearing during that first silver meeting,
01:28:49 03.20 to 03.32 or thereabouts,
01:28:52 that a dangerous structures engineer
01:28:54 had been already requested by the LFB?
01:28:58 No.
01:28:59 Okay.
01:29:00 So I'm just going to show you a very short clip
01:29:03 of body worn video footage
01:29:06 which shows Andy Rowe, the incident commander,
01:29:09 and you present during that meeting.
01:29:11 It runs from a time mark of 03.27.05
01:29:19 as adjusted and it runs to 03.27.22 as adjusted.
01:29:25 If I can ask for that to be played please.
01:29:27 It's INQ quintuple 0530.
01:29:31 I should just say there are no pictures
01:29:33 of the exterior of the tower.
01:29:35 This is all inside the command unit.
01:29:36 This is all inside the command unit, Mr Chairman,
01:29:37 and I think we've already seen this.
01:29:43 So you can see it, and there's a danger of collapse,
01:29:45 so we've got a clear limit of exploitation
01:29:46 at the front of the building.
01:29:47 So where the green is, really,
01:29:49 you wipe most of this green out.
01:29:52 This whole corner of the building here
01:29:54 is in danger of collapse, we think.
01:29:56 We've asked for danger structure,
01:29:57 and it actually is played in the office.
01:29:59 So your people need to be very...
01:30:02 Did you hear him say that?
01:30:03 Yes, I did.
01:30:04 Do you recall hearing him say that at the time?
01:30:07 I don't.
01:30:08 You don't? Okay.
01:30:09 You can see yourself in that clip.
01:30:11 Yes, I can.
01:30:12 You don't remember him saying that?
01:30:13 All right.
01:30:17 Does it follow, then,
01:30:18 given that you didn't hear him say
01:30:20 that a DSE had already been asked for,
01:30:25 does it follow that you didn't follow up after this call
01:30:27 as to where the DSE was at that stage?
01:30:30 Correct.
01:30:31 I see.
01:30:33 Now, we do have a call,
01:30:38 or rather, we do have a note of a call
01:30:40 that you made to David Kerry.
01:30:41 Can I ask you to look at the David Kerry log
01:30:43 at RBK00028849?
01:30:55 And go, please, to page three of that document.
01:31:05 And you can see that on the left-hand side,
01:31:08 item 10, 0337,
01:31:11 telephone call from Lalo, you see, Nick Layton,
01:31:15 following a silver meeting at the scene.
01:31:19 100 people trapped on various floors,
01:31:21 100 people trapped on various floors,
01:31:22 100 people trapped on various floors,
01:31:23 100 people trapped on various floors,
01:31:25 one corner in danger of collapse.
01:31:28 So it looks like you had picked up the fact
01:31:31 that there was, at that stage,
01:31:34 one corner of a building in danger of collapse,
01:31:36 and we've seen that from your own note, pot collapse.
01:31:40 Did that, my question is,
01:31:41 did that not signal to you at that time
01:31:44 that you did need a dangerous structures engineer urgently?
01:31:48 Yes, it should have done.
01:31:50 It should have done?
01:31:51 It should have done.
01:31:52 But did it?
01:31:53 No.
01:31:54 Why is that?
01:31:55 I can't answer.
01:31:56 Okay.
01:32:01 So coming back to your witness statement
01:32:02 of paragraph 25, if I can,
01:32:08 when you say that...
01:32:10 I'm sorry.
01:32:21 The London, the fire brigade asked,
01:32:23 at 0415, the fire brigade asked me to arrange
01:32:25 for a dangerous structures officer.
01:32:29 Can you help with the circumstances
01:32:33 surrounding that request at that time?
01:32:36 I believe I was outside the control vehicle,
01:32:39 and fire officers came in and said they needed
01:32:44 a dangerous structures officer as soon as possible,
01:32:47 and they did turn and tell me that if necessary,
01:32:50 they could provide a blue light escort
01:32:54 for the officer to get there quickly.
01:32:57 Right.
01:33:06 Now...
01:33:12 In the same log at page 5...
01:33:17 I'm sorry, I'll have to ask you to jump around.
01:33:19 If you go back to David Kerry's log, please,
01:33:21 and go to page 5 with that,
01:33:25 this is item 18.
01:33:36 So this is RBK00028849.
01:33:40 Item 18, page 5, please.
01:33:46 Item 18, with a time mark of 0418,
01:33:50 David Kerry records a telephone call from Lalo Nick Layton,
01:33:54 LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB,
01:33:59 LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB,
01:34:03 LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB, LFB,
01:34:06 and LFB had called for a dangerous structures officer
01:34:09 to attend and needed him urgently.
01:34:11 MPS were offering to provide blue lights transport
01:34:14 to get the DSO to the scene.
01:34:19 Do you recall the discussion that you had with him?
01:34:22 Yes, I do.
01:34:23 You do?
01:34:24 Is that an accurate recollection,
01:34:26 or record of what you recall of that discussion with him?
01:34:29 Yes.
01:34:30 Okay.
01:34:31 And that's 0418, so shortly after 0415,
01:34:33 as you recorded in your note.
01:34:35 Do you remember when you had the discussion with the LFB
01:34:39 about needing a DSE at around 0415, as you put it,
01:34:43 did the person or the officer from the LFB tell you
01:34:47 that the LFB had been calling for one for some time?
01:34:54 I couldn't say it with accuracy, sir.
01:34:56 Did you get an impression from the conversation
01:34:59 with the LFB officer that they were frustrated
01:35:02 that a DSE engineer had not come yet?
01:35:05 I got the sense of urgency that they were offering
01:35:08 the minute they offered the blue light to escort,
01:35:11 so from that point aspect, yes.
01:35:15 And then,
01:35:20 having had the discussion with David Kerry
01:35:23 and told him about the call for a DSE,
01:35:26 did you yourself go about getting or finding
01:35:30 a DSE, or did you leave that to David Kerry?
01:35:32 I left that with David Kerry.
01:35:33 Right.
01:35:34 And then he says in his emergency event log sheet
01:35:36 on the right-hand column, 0430,
01:35:40 I telephoned and spoke to the dangerous structures officer,
01:35:43 Amir Fardoui, he was at the Corden,
01:35:46 and then 0431, I telephoned the lay loan,
01:35:49 Nathan, and informed him that the DSO was at the Corden.
01:35:52 First of all, can you help me, is there a difference
01:35:54 between a DSE and a DSO, dangerous structures engineer
01:35:57 and dangerous structures officer?
01:35:59 Not to my knowledge.
01:36:00 Right.
01:36:01 Now, when you spoke to David Kerry
01:36:06 at 0418, did David Kerry tell you
01:36:10 that a dangerous structures engineer
01:36:11 had already been requested?
01:36:13 0418, no.
01:36:15 Right.
01:36:19 Do you remember when Amir Fardoui arrived at the Corden?
01:36:24 I'd say somewhere around 0430.
01:36:28 Did you discover that from David Kerry?
01:36:30 No, no.
01:36:31 When he told you, or did you know that before that?
01:36:35 I actually saw, I couldn't remember, Amir Fardoui,
01:36:41 one of the other building control officers I saw at the time.
01:36:45 Right, now, I'm very sorry, Mr. Layton,
01:36:48 you're going to have to repeat that answer
01:36:49 for the transcript, please.
01:36:51 Okay.
01:36:52 Although I couldn't remember the name of Amir Fardoui,
01:36:55 and there was another officer who I knew belonged
01:36:58 to building control, had arrived at around about that time.
01:37:04 So your recollection is that someone who was not Amir Fardoui
01:37:08 had arrived from building control at that time?
01:37:10 I'm trying to actually think of his name,
01:37:12 unfortunately it's gone blank.
01:37:14 But yes, I saw a familiar officer
01:37:17 from building control at the site.
01:37:19 Right.
01:37:20 I saw the two people.
01:37:21 At the time, Amir Fardoui, I couldn't remember his name.
01:37:24 So you did see Amir Fardoui, but couldn't remember his name?
01:37:27 At that time, yes.
01:37:28 At that time, and you say at that time, about 4.30,
01:37:30 is that right?
01:37:31 Approximately, yes.
01:37:32 And you say you also saw somebody else
01:37:34 from building control?
01:37:35 John.
01:37:36 I'm trying to think.
01:37:39 The other person's name is in my statement.
01:37:42 Is that John Allen?
01:37:43 John Allen.
01:37:44 Right.
01:37:45 Where on the cordon did you see those two individuals?
01:37:49 By the incident control vehicle.
01:37:51 Were they together?
01:37:52 Yes, they were.
01:37:53 Do you know how long they'd been there?
01:37:55 No.
01:37:56 Did you take steps to tell the LFB
01:37:59 that the DSE or DSEs were not there?
01:38:01 No, we were already talking to the LFB.
01:38:03 Right.
01:38:09 And this was, you say, about 4.30?
01:38:11 Approximately, yes.
01:38:12 Now, can I just ask you about a document
01:38:17 that is not yours, but nonetheless is a record
01:38:20 of the night?
01:38:21 It's the row log we've looked at before.
01:38:23 This is MET Quadruple Zero 5404.
01:38:28 And look, please, at page four at the top of that document.
01:38:32 It's the one that's on page four.
01:38:34 It's the one that's on page four.
01:38:36 It's the one that's on page four.
01:38:38 It's the one that's on page four.
01:38:40 And look, please, at page four at the top of that document.
01:38:48 At 04.51, 04.51, top of the screen,
01:38:53 it says structural surveyor in attendance at leisure center
01:38:56 and is to make decision on integrity of building.
01:39:02 Is that a reference to one or other
01:39:05 of Amir Fadoui or John Allen?
01:39:07 That is.
01:39:08 Right.
01:39:09 And I'm just wondering if you could
01:39:11 record with your recollection about the presence
01:39:13 of the structural surveyor in terms of timing.
01:39:16 I would have said it was earlier, personally.
01:39:18 All right.
01:39:20 And then if you go to 05.32, halfway down the page,
01:39:25 at page four, the logist has written in the second line,
01:39:29 corridor to protect egress and entry,
01:39:35 and inbound John Allen structural engineer.
01:39:39 Entry, sir.
01:39:41 I see.
01:39:42 So entry into the building rather than entry
01:39:45 onto the incident ground.
01:39:47 I would say entry into the building, sir.
01:39:49 And I'm asking you to interpret a document that isn't yours.
01:39:51 I appreciate it.
01:39:52 But your recollection is that John Allen wasn't,
01:39:54 as it were, inbound to the site.
01:39:56 He was there.
01:39:57 He was there.
01:39:58 Right.
01:40:02 And your clear recollection is that they were both there
01:40:04 together, both Amir Fadoui and John Allen.
01:40:06 When I saw them, they were both there together.
01:40:08 Right.
01:40:10 Did you have a discussion with John Allen at the time?
01:40:13 No, because he was actually dealing with the LFB at the time.
01:40:16 I see.
01:40:19 Now, can I...?
01:40:38 Can I ask you please to look at a video,
01:40:48 clip of body-worn video from the second TCM,
01:40:54 the second tactical coordination meeting,
01:40:58 that started at 0434, according to the row log.
01:41:05 And this is clip INQ531, so quintuple 0531,
01:41:11 which has an adjusted time of 0439.30 to 0439.55.
01:41:18 So this is taken within that second meeting,
01:41:21 second silver meeting.
01:41:23 If I could just play that to you.
01:41:26 Harder, my friend.
01:41:27 Just don't blip.
01:41:28 I need that to die.
01:41:29 So what I have said is if we can find you,
01:41:31 can we get products to be more effective?
01:41:33 If we can find them, can we get products to be more effective?
01:41:36 I really want to hear...
01:41:37 That's the word that's already gone back there.
01:41:39 I don't think I can contact any of you.
01:41:41 That's probably the most important thing
01:41:43 you can do for me, actually, because...
01:41:45 I've been asking for the last two hours,
01:41:47 so I want them here now to make the structural decision
01:41:49 on that building for me.
01:41:50 So I've said to soon make contact with them
01:41:52 and they will let you know.
01:41:53 It just gets a collective score of 30-40.
01:41:55 Police.
01:41:57 Now...
01:41:59 First of all, do you...
01:42:01 You can hear the commissioner clearly saying on that.
01:42:03 I've been asking...
01:42:04 I couldn't make out all the conversation,
01:42:06 but she was clearly asking for something
01:42:08 that she'd been asking for for two hours.
01:42:10 Yes.
01:42:11 And to the best of your recollection,
01:42:13 is that right, that she had been asking for a DSE
01:42:15 for the past two hours?
01:42:17 I didn't know that before that, but yes.
01:42:20 Right.
01:42:21 Now...
01:42:22 You also can hear...
01:42:29 Well, perhaps you can't hear, actually,
01:42:31 what you're saying.
01:42:32 Perhaps we could play that again
01:42:33 just to try to pick up what you're saying on that.
01:42:40 On that clip.
01:42:41 Pardon my French, don't be...
01:42:43 I need that.
01:42:44 Sir, I have said, if we can find her,
01:42:46 can we get colleagues to blue light the middle?
01:42:48 The DSE, I really want to hear.
01:42:50 That's the word that's already come back out.
01:42:52 I don't think I can take any of you.
01:42:54 That's probably the most important thing
01:42:56 you can do for me, actually, because...
01:42:58 I've been asking for the last two hours,
01:43:00 so I won't be able to make a structural decision
01:43:02 that I can't make out.
01:43:03 I'm not going to be able to make out.
01:43:05 I'm not going to be able to make out.
01:43:07 I'm not going to be able to make out.
01:43:09 I'm not going to be able to make out.
01:43:11 I'm not going to be able to make out.
01:43:13 So I've said, as soon as we make contact,
01:43:15 we'll let you know.
01:43:16 Just get some colleagues to blue light the middle.
01:43:18 Please.
01:43:19 Now, as I say, this is a time mark of 0439...
01:43:22 30 to 0439...
01:43:24 0439.55.
01:43:26 So after 0430, it looks from that...
01:43:29 Help me with this.
01:43:30 It looks from that as if at that point
01:43:32 you didn't know that the DSEs
01:43:35 were at the cordon present.
01:43:37 Yeah.
01:43:38 Would that be fair?
01:43:39 That would be fair.
01:43:40 So your first discovery that they were there
01:43:43 must have been after 0415,
01:43:45 indeed after 0430...
01:43:47 After that meeting.
01:43:48 And after this meeting.
01:43:50 So the question is, why didn't you tell the meeting
01:43:53 what you'd been told by David Kerry,
01:43:56 which was that the DSE or DSO was at the cordon?
01:44:03 I can't answer.
01:44:04 Right. OK.
01:44:11 Now...
01:44:19 If I go take you back to the row log,
01:44:23 MET quadruple 05404
01:44:28 and page three of that, Mr. Layton,
01:44:30 we can see that this is, again,
01:44:33 a note of the meeting,
01:44:37 second tactical coordination meeting
01:44:40 if we can just have that blown up a bit.
01:44:46 And it starts,
01:44:48 commissioner introduces and establishes priorities
01:44:50 in AR absence, safety of building,
01:44:54 LAS access and egress being protected
01:44:56 by right shields, commissioner,
01:44:58 dangerous structures engineer is en route.
01:45:01 And then...
01:45:02 Have we got the right bit up on the screen?
01:45:06 We have, I haven't spotted it.
01:45:08 No, it's my fault.
01:45:09 I'm sorry, I'm working from a document.
01:45:11 You can scroll down, please, to 0434.
01:45:15 That's it.
01:45:17 0434 tactical coordination meeting,
01:45:20 and I'll just pick this up,
01:45:21 four lines or four entries down,
01:45:23 the commissioner says,
01:45:24 dangerous structures engineer is en route.
01:45:28 And then...
01:45:31 About halfway down that main block of text,
01:45:33 local authority, it says,
01:45:36 the rest centre's established on Shepherd's Bush Green,
01:45:39 DSE to be blue-lighted in
01:45:41 as we've been asking for them for two hours.
01:45:47 Again, is that an accurate record
01:45:51 as far as you can recollect?
01:45:53 I have not been asking for no due to survey for two hours.
01:45:59 Right.
01:46:00 It looks as if when the commissioner says,
01:46:03 dangerous structure engineer is en route,
01:46:05 DSE to be blue-lighted in,
01:46:07 it looks as if their impression
01:46:09 is that the dangerous structures engineers are not there.
01:46:11 Yes.
01:46:12 Right.
01:46:14 And you don't say,
01:46:15 no, no, they're here at the Corden.
01:46:17 You're not recorded as having said that.
01:46:20 So does that indicate that you didn't tell them
01:46:22 that they were at the Corden?
01:46:23 No.
01:46:24 OK.
01:46:32 When the commissioner said,
01:46:34 that she's been asking,
01:46:35 the LFB had been calling for a DSE for the past two hours,
01:46:39 was that the first time that you heard that that was so?
01:46:44 For the two hours, yes.
01:46:45 OK.
01:46:46 Now I'm going to turn to a different topic,
01:46:48 which is lists of residents.
01:46:51 If you can go, please,
01:46:52 to paragraph 26 of your statement on page 8.
01:47:05 You say there,
01:47:06 the next silver meeting was at 0430 a.m.
01:47:10 My briefing included informing command
01:47:12 that Harrow Club Rest Centre was now being opened.
01:47:15 I recalled that it was also the 0430 a.m. meeting
01:47:18 that I was asked by the fire brigade
01:47:20 for a list of all residents at Grenfell Tower.
01:47:24 Now, Mr. Leighton,
01:47:25 can I just ask you something about that?
01:47:31 If we can look at your own log,
01:47:34 please, at page 3.
01:47:44 I'm so sorry.
01:47:45 Your log at page 1,
01:47:46 which is RBK00029036.
01:47:49 I apologise, I've given you the wrong reference.
01:47:51 RBK00029036.
01:47:57 You can see...
01:47:58 ..under item 11, 0430,
01:48:04 silver meat,
01:48:06 multi-casualties,
01:48:09 8 to 10 PI...
01:48:11 I'm afraid I'm unable to read that next word.
01:48:17 Can you help us with that?
01:48:20 Are you all right?
01:48:22 Mr. Leighton, would you like a break?
01:48:24 Before we put you on the floor.
01:48:26 Yeah.
01:48:27 Yeah? OK.
01:48:29 You can go to the usher,
01:48:31 and we'll have a five-minute break.
01:48:33 OK.
01:48:44 All right, we'll break until 11.15.
01:48:46 Cheers.
01:48:56 Thank you.
01:49:26 Thank you.
01:49:56 Thank you.
01:50:26 Thank you.
01:50:56 Thank you.
01:51:26 Thank you.
01:51:56 Thank you.
01:52:26 Thank you.
01:52:56 Thank you.
01:53:26 Thank you.
01:53:56 Thank you.
01:54:26 Thank you.
01:54:56 Thank you.
01:55:26 Thank you.
01:55:56 Thank you.
01:56:26 Would you like Mr Leighton to come back in, please?
01:56:57 All right, now, you're feeling all right to carry on, Mr Leighton?
01:56:59 Yes, sir.
01:57:00 Now, if you get to a stage when you feel you need a break,
01:57:02 don't hesitate to indicate, all right?
01:57:04 Yes.
01:57:05 Yes, Mr Leighton.
01:57:09 Mr Leighton, thank you for coming back to us.
01:57:11 Just see how we go with this.
01:57:13 Can I ask you to be shown again,
01:57:15 R-B-K,
01:57:16 00028849 at page three?
01:57:27 I'm sorry, that is my fault.
01:57:29 It's...
01:57:30 That is the Kerry log.
01:57:32 R-B-K, 00029036.
01:57:38 29036.
01:57:40 That's it now.
01:57:41 We were looking at your note of the meeting,
01:57:45 item 11 on the left-hand side,
01:57:48 0430 Silvermeat,
01:57:50 and you were...
01:57:51 We'd got to item 12.
01:57:56 Against line 12, 8-10 PI.
01:57:59 I was going to ask you if you wouldn't mind reading to me
01:58:02 what you'd written there, if you can.
01:58:04 8-10 P1s conveyed.
01:58:07 They were prior to one,
01:58:10 casualties that had been conveyed to hospital.
01:58:12 Right.
01:58:13 I'm sorry, I'm so sorry to ask you to have to repeat that.
01:58:17 Conveyed, and then it looks like...
01:58:19 Well, I can't...
01:58:20 Can you read the next word?
01:58:21 Yeah.
01:58:22 Treatment of 2 P1s at site.
01:58:26 I see.
01:58:28 20 P3s which were people being treated in Nookhan,
01:58:35 around the tower.
01:58:36 Yeah.
01:58:37 I see.
01:58:39 So, conveyed, treated.
01:58:41 Conveyed was already taken away to hospital.
01:58:45 And then 13, bus Bramley Trans P3.
01:58:49 Yeah.
01:58:51 And then press in one location,
01:58:54 next 0550.
01:58:56 And the reason for my taking you through that
01:58:59 was to really point out what's not there,
01:59:02 and that is that there's no record in there
01:59:05 of any request for a list of residents.
01:59:08 Is that right?
01:59:10 Correct.
01:59:12 And so that's why I'm asking you,
01:59:15 when you go back to your statement at paragraph 26, Mr. Laten,
01:59:18 if you can just look at that,
01:59:20 you say,
01:59:22 I recall that it was also...
01:59:25 If you could just have that blown up, please.
01:59:27 I recall that it was also at the 0430 meeting
01:59:30 that I was asked by the Flyer Brigade
01:59:32 for a list of all residents at Grenfell Tower.
01:59:35 What was it when you did your statement
01:59:37 that prompted the recollection that it was at that meeting
01:59:40 that you were asked for a list of residents?
01:59:43 Because I had to go to the next meeting
01:59:46 with a negative response back to...
01:59:50 the meeting about getting any information on the residents.
01:59:56 I know that there were two meetings.
02:00:01 I was due to attend the 7 o'clock meeting,
02:00:04 which I couldn't attend,
02:00:06 and Mike Rumble attended that in my place.
02:00:10 And when I handed over to Mike,
02:00:12 I had to tell him that I still had not got the information.
02:00:16 The next meeting was going to be at 0550,
02:00:24 as you say from your note.
02:00:26 I'm not sure I understood your last answer.
02:00:29 My question really is,
02:00:31 given that there's nothing in your contemporaneous note
02:00:33 about being asked for a list of residents
02:00:35 at the second meeting,
02:00:37 what was it that prompted your recollection
02:00:39 and your statement that you were asked
02:00:41 for a list of residents at that meeting?
02:00:43 As I said, I know for a fact
02:00:46 that we were going to go to two meetings
02:00:49 where we hadn't provided the information
02:00:52 that was requested.
02:00:54 That was the 0550 meeting
02:00:56 and would be the 7 o'clock meeting.
02:01:00 So it was my recollection
02:01:03 that it was approximately 0430
02:01:05 that I was asked,
02:01:06 because I knew I was going to two meetings
02:01:09 where I was not providing the information
02:01:10 I was requested.
02:01:12 Now, is it possible
02:01:16 that you had this recollection
02:01:18 of being asked for this list of residents
02:01:21 prior to or outside
02:01:24 that second tactical coordination meeting?
02:01:27 It is possible.
02:01:37 You then say in paragraph 27,
02:01:40 having received this request,
02:01:42 I was aware that this information
02:01:43 was likely to be with the TMO,
02:01:46 as they were the managing agents for the tower.
02:01:49 I therefore passed this request to Robert Black
02:01:51 and asked him to obtain the information urgently.
02:01:58 Do you remember whether you asked Robert Black
02:02:00 to get that information
02:02:02 before or after the second
02:02:05 tactical coordination meeting?
02:02:10 I can't say for definite.
02:02:16 Did you ask for that information
02:02:18 immediately it was asked for
02:02:20 of you by the IFB?
02:02:21 Yes, I did.
02:02:23 And where was Robert Black standing
02:02:25 when you asked him for a list of residents?
02:02:28 He was outside probably about three foot,
02:02:33 three to four feet in front of the
02:02:36 incident control vehicle
02:02:38 on the side of the road.
02:02:43 And what did he do?
02:02:45 He made a phone call straight away.
02:02:47 Do you know who he called?
02:02:48 No.
02:02:50 Do you know what the result of that call was?
02:02:52 The result was I didn't get the information.
02:02:54 Did he report to you that he had been
02:02:56 unable to get the information?
02:02:57 No, not until I was chasing him
02:02:59 for the information.
02:03:01 Right.
02:03:02 Let's just move on with the same topic.
02:03:04 At paragraph 28 of your statement,
02:03:06 middle of page eight of your statement
02:03:08 to the inquiry, you say,
02:03:10 the next silver meeting was at 5.50.
02:03:13 Before I went to the next meeting,
02:03:15 I asked Robert Black whether he had
02:03:17 managed to get the list of the
02:03:19 Grenfell Tower residents.
02:03:20 However, he did not have this
02:03:22 information and he made another call.
02:03:26 Why did you ask for this information
02:03:29 from Robert Black at that point?
02:03:31 Because I was getting ready to go
02:03:33 to the next silver meeting
02:03:35 and it was just before I went there
02:03:37 so I wanted to get an update.
02:03:39 How sure are you that this wasn't
02:03:41 the first time that you'd asked Robert
02:03:43 Black for that information?
02:03:45 Certain.
02:03:47 Certain.
02:03:49 And where was Robert Black when you
02:03:51 made this request?
02:03:53 On Bowmore Road, I'd say about
02:03:55 three or four feet in, again,
02:03:58 in front of the fire control vehicle.
02:04:01 So this is the same place as the
02:04:03 previous request?
02:04:04 I met him in the same place most times.
02:04:07 Right.
02:04:08 And what did...
02:04:10 You say he made another call.
02:04:12 Do you know who he called?
02:04:14 No, I do not.
02:04:15 Were you standing next to him when
02:04:17 he was making that call?
02:04:18 I was standing in front of him.
02:04:20 What was the upshot of that call?
02:04:22 The upshot was asking somebody for
02:04:24 the details of who he called,
02:04:26 I do not know.
02:04:28 Did you ask him...
02:04:32 Well, did he say whether he was
02:04:34 going to get it?
02:04:35 He just said that he hadn't received
02:04:37 the information, so he made another
02:04:39 phone call.
02:04:40 Right.
02:04:43 Did he explain why?
02:04:45 No, he didn't.
02:04:46 Did you ask him?
02:04:48 Yes.
02:04:49 What did you ask him?
02:04:50 I didn't get an answer.
02:04:51 Right.
02:04:54 Now, we then go to the third TCM
02:04:57 tactical coordination meeting,
02:05:00 and you have the time to
02:05:03 have the time of that at 05.50.
02:05:10 If you go, please, to page five
02:05:14 of the row log, MET quadruple 05.404.
02:05:24 I'll just wait to get that for you.
02:05:26 At 05.50, it says,
02:05:30 tactical coordination meeting.
02:05:37 And then there's quite a lot of
02:05:40 detail in there.
02:05:42 In particular, can I show you
02:05:44 where it says at the end of the
02:05:46 first chunk of text, 115 unaccounted
02:05:48 for, very difficult to establish
02:05:50 exact numbers due to self-evac.
02:05:54 And then a reference to a casualty
02:05:56 bureau being opened.
02:05:58 We can't see anywhere in this
02:06:01 record of that meeting any
02:06:03 reference to a list of
02:06:05 Grenfell Tower residents.
02:06:12 Are you...
02:06:13 How clear are you in your mind?
02:06:15 I'm convinced that there was a
02:06:17 request for a list of residents.
02:06:19 I went back to that meeting.
02:06:21 I had to inform them.
02:06:22 Unfortunately, I had not got
02:06:24 the information.
02:06:26 And at paragraph 29 of your
02:06:28 statement, you say, you reported
02:06:30 to that meeting that the list of
02:06:33 Grenfell Tower...
02:06:34 I'll just go back.
02:06:35 I'll just show it to you on the
02:06:36 screen, Mr. Mason.
02:06:38 29, I reported at the 05.50
02:06:40 silver meeting that the list of
02:06:42 Grenfell Tower residents was
02:06:43 still not available.
02:06:44 And I assured that I was pressing
02:06:46 to get this information urgently.
02:06:56 I recall that the fire brigade
02:06:58 were unhappy that the
02:06:59 information hadn't arrived yet.
02:07:01 And after the meeting finished,
02:07:02 I then went back to Robert Black
02:07:04 and relayed this to him.
02:07:11 And how certain are you of what
02:07:13 you're saying here in your
02:07:14 statement?
02:07:15 100%.
02:07:16 100%.
02:07:26 Now, can I ask you to look at
02:07:32 your own note of this meeting,
02:07:34 RBK00029036, page 2.
02:07:50 And if you can turn on the
02:07:51 screen to page 2, there it is.
02:07:52 Now, this meeting is just below
02:07:54 halfway down, 05.50.
02:07:57 Just scanning your eyes down,
02:07:59 your record of that meeting,
02:08:01 which I think finishes at the
02:08:03 bottom of the page, which says
02:08:05 next 07.10 or 07 something.
02:08:10 We can't see any indication
02:08:12 there of your recording a
02:08:14 discussion about a list of
02:08:16 residents.
02:08:17 Am I right about that?
02:08:19 It's at the very bottom.
02:08:22 Number of all...
02:08:24 Oh, no, sir.
02:08:25 No, it isn't.
02:08:27 So, do you know why you didn't
02:08:30 record the discussion of which
02:08:32 you're now 100% certain took
02:08:34 place about a list of residents
02:08:35 at that meeting?
02:08:36 No.
02:08:37 But nonetheless, me having
02:08:39 shown you, or I having shown
02:08:40 you, your own record of that
02:08:42 meeting, you're still 100%
02:08:43 certain that you raised it at
02:08:45 that meeting?
02:08:46 I am.
02:08:47 Is there any reason why you
02:08:48 didn't record that?
02:08:49 I can't explain it.
02:08:51 Now, did you have a
02:08:54 discussion after this meeting
02:08:56 with David Kerry about obtaining
02:08:58 a list of residents?
02:09:00 No.
02:09:01 Why is that?
02:09:02 I went straight to Robert Black.
02:09:04 The council, I didn't think,
02:09:07 had the full list of residents
02:09:09 as we were not managing the
02:09:10 properties.
02:09:12 Do you...
02:09:18 Right.
02:09:19 And did you have any thoughts
02:09:21 at the time about how hard it
02:09:22 could be to get a list of
02:09:24 residents of this building?
02:09:26 Personally, I thought it should
02:09:28 be straightforward.
02:09:36 Was the information that you
02:09:38 were asking for ever made
02:09:40 available to you before you
02:09:42 left the scene at, you say,
02:09:44 7 o'clock a.m.?
02:09:45 No.
02:09:46 Did you think anybody else
02:09:47 would have this information
02:09:48 other than the TMO?
02:09:50 No, I think it would be
02:09:51 solely with the TMO.
02:09:57 Going back to paragraph 29
02:10:00 of your statement,
02:10:03 you say, in the middle
02:10:05 of that paragraph,
02:10:10 after the meeting finished,
02:10:11 I then went back to Robert
02:10:13 Black and relayed this to him
02:10:16 and asked Robert again
02:10:17 if he had received
02:10:18 the information.
02:10:19 He hadn't,
02:10:20 and he made another call,
02:10:22 but when I checked with him
02:10:23 before I left the scene
02:10:24 at 7 a.m.,
02:10:25 he still hadn't received it
02:10:26 and I passed the matter...
02:10:28 I passed over the matter
02:10:29 to Mike Rumble
02:10:30 so that he could liaise
02:10:31 with Robert.
02:10:32 So just breaking that
02:10:33 down a little bit,
02:10:35 how soon after the meeting
02:10:37 finished did you go back
02:10:38 to Robert Black
02:10:39 and relay what you'd been
02:10:40 told by the LFB to him?
02:10:43 I went probably straight away.
02:10:46 Where was he?
02:10:48 I'm not sure exactly,
02:10:50 but I would have gone
02:10:51 and found him straight away.
02:10:53 I believe he was probably
02:10:54 still somewhere
02:10:55 on Bonewall Street
02:10:58 and I would have spoken
02:10:59 to him.
02:11:00 OK.
02:11:01 And you say,
02:11:03 I asked Robert again
02:11:04 if he'd received the information.
02:11:06 So that would be,
02:11:07 is that on your recollection,
02:11:08 the third time
02:11:09 you'd asked him?
02:11:10 Yes.
02:11:11 And you said
02:11:12 he hadn't
02:11:13 and he made another call.
02:11:15 Yes.
02:11:16 Did he explain to you
02:11:17 why he hadn't?
02:11:18 No.
02:11:19 Were you present
02:11:20 when he made that other call?
02:11:21 I was present
02:11:22 but I wasn't listening.
02:11:24 Right.
02:11:25 And what was the upshot
02:11:26 of that call?
02:11:27 He said he would
02:11:28 get the information to us.
02:11:30 Now, we don't have an end time,
02:11:35 exact end time for that meeting,
02:11:39 but can you recall roughly
02:11:40 when the meeting was?
02:11:42 When that meeting finished
02:11:43 so that we can put a time on
02:11:44 when you had this discussion
02:11:45 with Robert Black?
02:11:47 I would say that meeting
02:11:48 didn't take more than 10,
02:11:50 15 minutes max.
02:11:53 Now, you then say in your statement
02:11:57 as I've just shown you,
02:11:58 when I checked with him
02:11:59 before I left the scene
02:12:00 at 7am,
02:12:01 he still hadn't received it.
02:12:02 How long before you left the scene
02:12:04 do you remember
02:12:05 checking back again
02:12:06 with Robert Black
02:12:07 about what had happened
02:12:08 to the list of residents?
02:12:09 Probably about five minutes
02:12:10 before I left.
02:12:12 Right.
02:12:14 And you say you left at 7am,
02:12:16 so this would be about 6.55
02:12:17 to the best of your knowledge.
02:12:18 Approximately, yes.
02:12:20 Because I needed to brief Mike
02:12:23 of the outstanding issue
02:12:24 of this.
02:12:26 No.
02:12:28 Did you have any contact
02:12:30 with any other members
02:12:31 of the TMO staff
02:12:32 on the night
02:12:33 other than Robert Black?
02:12:34 No.
02:12:37 Were you aware at any stage
02:12:38 of what roles the TMO staff had
02:12:40 within the cordon?
02:12:42 No, I wasn't.
02:12:44 Did you observe
02:12:45 any direct contact
02:12:46 between the TMO staff
02:12:47 and the emergency services?
02:12:50 None at all.
02:12:52 You remember seeing none?
02:12:54 Is that that you remember
02:12:56 seeing none
02:12:57 or that you don't remember
02:12:58 seeing any?
02:12:59 I don't remember seeing
02:13:00 any contact between
02:13:01 the LFB,
02:13:02 the police,
02:13:03 or TMO.
02:13:04 Right.
02:13:05 So there's a bit of a difference.
02:13:06 Can I just put the question
02:13:07 again?
02:13:08 Is it that you do remember
02:13:09 seeing them not having
02:13:10 any contact
02:13:11 or that you don't remember
02:13:12 having contact?
02:13:13 I don't remember them
02:13:14 having any contact whatsoever.
02:13:15 Right.
02:13:17 Can I turn to the subject
02:13:18 of plans?
02:13:20 During your time
02:13:21 at the incident,
02:13:22 did you think
02:13:23 did it occur to you
02:13:24 that the LFB
02:13:25 would be assisted
02:13:26 by having plans
02:13:27 of the layout
02:13:28 of Granfell Tower?
02:13:31 Yes.
02:13:32 At what point
02:13:33 did it occur to you
02:13:34 that they would need plans?
02:13:36 It wasn't immediately.
02:13:38 I know in the building
02:13:40 I'm working
02:13:41 on having plans available
02:13:44 for 5th Brigade,
02:13:46 but no,
02:13:48 I didn't do anything.
02:13:50 Are you aware of
02:13:52 something called
02:13:53 a premises information box?
02:13:55 Yes.
02:13:56 Did you know on the night
02:13:57 whether there was or wasn't
02:13:58 a premises information box
02:13:59 at Granfell Tower?
02:14:01 As far as I'm aware,
02:14:02 if there was,
02:14:03 it wasn't available.
02:14:05 Okay.
02:14:06 When did you first discover
02:14:08 that plans for Granfell Tower
02:14:11 were missing
02:14:12 and were needed?
02:14:14 I can't say with any clarity.
02:14:19 Now, at paragraph 35
02:14:21 of your statement
02:14:22 on page 10,
02:14:27 you say,
02:14:30 at around 7am
02:14:32 I handed over the roll
02:14:33 of Lay Low to Mike Rumble
02:14:34 and I handed him
02:14:35 my note straight log
02:14:37 so that he knew
02:14:38 what had been happening.
02:14:39 Although I was still
02:14:40 duty officer for the rest
02:14:41 of the week,
02:14:42 I was no longer the Lay Low
02:14:43 for Granfell Tower.
02:14:44 At no point prior
02:14:45 to me leaving the site
02:14:46 had I ever been asked
02:14:47 about the layout
02:14:48 of Granfell Tower
02:14:49 or been asked to obtain
02:14:50 any plans for the tower.
02:14:54 Now,
02:14:57 let me just
02:14:58 put something to you.
02:15:00 Inspector Thatcher,
02:15:01 who attended
02:15:03 the silver TCMs,
02:15:05 Tactical Coordination Meetings,
02:15:07 told us in evidence
02:15:08 that his recollection
02:15:09 from those meetings
02:15:10 is that you were asked
02:15:11 by the LFB
02:15:12 for up-to-date plans
02:15:13 for the building.
02:15:16 I cannot recollect
02:15:18 that at all.
02:15:21 And I can play this to you
02:15:23 if you like.
02:15:24 Yes.
02:15:25 His body-worn video footage
02:15:29 shows Andy Rowe,
02:15:33 the incident commander,
02:15:34 saying at the Tactical
02:15:36 Coordination Meeting
02:15:37 at 7.13,
02:15:38 which was after you left,
02:15:40 that he had been asking
02:15:41 for plans for a very long time.
02:15:44 That's what he says.
02:15:45 We can look at it
02:15:46 if you like,
02:15:47 but you weren't there.
02:15:49 My question is,
02:15:50 is he right,
02:15:52 to the best of your knowledge,
02:15:54 that the LFB had been
02:15:55 asking for plans
02:15:56 for a very long time?
02:15:58 If they had,
02:15:59 they weren't made to meet.
02:16:00 Right.
02:16:02 And indeed,
02:16:03 Inspector Thatcher,
02:16:04 who was at that meeting,
02:16:05 said that the LFB
02:16:06 had been asking for plans
02:16:07 from the word go.
02:16:08 Can you comment on that?
02:16:10 No.
02:16:12 Did you...
02:16:16 To be fair to you,
02:16:18 we don't see any record
02:16:20 of that request,
02:16:22 request for plans,
02:16:24 during the first TCM
02:16:26 or the second TCM
02:16:27 or the third TCM.
02:16:29 Did you ever overhear
02:16:31 a request being made
02:16:33 by the LFB for plans?
02:16:35 No.
02:16:39 Now, can I ask you please
02:16:41 to look at the row log,
02:16:43 MET quadruple 05404,
02:16:47 and go please to page five,
02:16:49 middle of that page.
02:16:54 And Mr. Layton,
02:16:55 can I ask you please
02:16:56 to look at the time mark
02:16:58 of 06.13,
02:16:59 if we can just have
02:17:00 that highlighted.
02:17:06 And then this is,
02:17:07 I should just be clear to you,
02:17:09 it looks as if it's outside
02:17:11 the context of silver meetings.
02:17:14 So, but I want to ask you
02:17:16 about it anyway.
02:17:18 DSE, District Surveyor,
02:17:19 could not get high enough.
02:17:20 No floor collapse,
02:17:22 pancake, frame building,
02:17:24 max fire resistance,
02:17:25 four hours,
02:17:26 firefighter shaft,
02:17:27 two hours,
02:17:28 if columns spall,
02:17:29 not saying will collapse,
02:17:30 if no people let it burn,
02:17:31 would attempt to locate plans,
02:17:33 John Allen and then
02:17:34 there's a blanked over detail.
02:17:39 Do you recall ever hearing
02:17:41 a discussion involving
02:17:44 Andy Rowe or any other
02:17:45 LFB officer about an attempt
02:17:48 to locate plans as recorded here?
02:17:50 No.
02:17:53 Were you aware that Robert Black
02:17:55 had emailed a copy of the plans
02:17:57 of the building at 06.16 a.m.
02:18:02 to John Allen?
02:18:03 No.
02:18:07 Would it follow
02:18:08 that you don't know
02:18:09 whether or not John Allen
02:18:10 then handed those to the LFB?
02:18:12 No, I do not.
02:18:14 So this is completely outside
02:18:15 your knowledge, is it?
02:18:16 Yes.
02:18:17 Right.
02:18:18 Now you left and you say
02:18:20 you handed over to Mike Rumble.
02:18:22 Did you give Mike Rumble
02:18:24 a brief, a handover briefing
02:18:26 as to what requests had been made
02:18:28 of you, which was still
02:18:29 outstanding?
02:18:30 Yes, I did.
02:18:31 And can you remember what it was
02:18:32 that was outstanding?
02:18:33 It was the list of residents
02:18:36 for the LFB
02:18:38 and trying to establish
02:18:41 what people were in rest centres.
02:18:45 And did you give any impression
02:18:48 of how urgent it was
02:18:49 for Mike Rumble to keep
02:18:50 following up on the list
02:18:51 of residents?
02:18:52 Yes, I did.
02:18:53 What did you say to him?
02:18:54 Do you remember?
02:18:55 I told him that the LFB
02:18:56 had been asking for this
02:18:57 information for possibly
02:18:59 the last three meetings.
02:19:00 I had not been able
02:19:01 to give it to them.
02:19:03 I said,
02:19:04 I said it will come up
02:19:05 on the next meeting.
02:19:07 Was that a matter of concern
02:19:10 to you at the time?
02:19:11 Yes, it was.
02:19:13 And so far as you know,
02:19:15 Mike Rumble understood
02:19:16 the importance and urgency
02:19:18 of obtaining that information.
02:19:19 Yes.
02:19:25 Yes, thank you very much, Mr Laiton.
02:19:27 I do have one question
02:19:28 just by way of clarification
02:19:30 of something that I want
02:19:31 to get back to.
02:19:32 And it's a subject
02:19:33 we covered right at the start
02:19:34 of your evidence
02:19:35 about when you were first
02:19:37 called by the GDIT.
02:19:39 It's really a timing point.
02:19:41 Can I ask, please,
02:19:42 that the witness is shown
02:19:44 MET00023294,
02:19:48 23294,
02:19:51 which is the CAD.
02:19:53 We saw CAD 482.
02:19:56 And I'll explain
02:19:57 to you what this is.
02:19:58 And I think it's a very
02:20:00 good point.
02:20:01 I'll explain to you
02:20:02 what this is.
02:20:03 And that's the first page
02:20:05 of this document.
02:20:06 What this is,
02:20:07 as far as we understand it,
02:20:09 Mr Laiton,
02:20:10 is the Metropolitan Police's
02:20:12 running computer-assisted record,
02:20:15 computer-assisted dispatch record
02:20:17 of all the messages
02:20:18 coming through
02:20:19 the Metropolitan Police
02:20:21 in relation to this incident.
02:20:23 And if I can ask you, please,
02:20:24 to go to page 11 of that.
02:20:30 You can see that at 02-1002,
02:20:36 four-fifths of the way
02:20:37 down the page,
02:20:38 we can please have
02:20:39 that highlighted.
02:20:41 TWOP KNC Council informed,
02:20:46 and there's a reference,
02:20:47 Katherine Ascombe,
02:20:48 they will be contacting
02:20:49 their duty officer,
02:20:51 who will liaise
02:20:52 with BSC Direct.
02:20:53 Council has set up
02:20:54 a dedicated op named Erin
02:20:56 for any further
02:20:57 poll contact.
02:20:58 First of all,
02:20:59 do you know
02:21:00 who Erin Ascombe is or was?
02:21:03 I believe she was the operator
02:21:04 that took the call.
02:21:05 And do you know
02:21:06 who Erin might be?
02:21:07 I think Erin might be
02:21:08 the supervisor,
02:21:09 because they knew,
02:21:12 they obviously realised
02:21:13 it was made the emergency,
02:21:14 they set up a dedicated team
02:21:16 to take the calls.
02:21:20 Doing the best you can,
02:21:22 and I know this isn't
02:21:23 your record,
02:21:24 does this help you
02:21:25 time the first discussion
02:21:27 or call you took,
02:21:29 the only call you took
02:21:30 from GDIT?
02:21:32 Yes.
02:21:34 Would this indicate
02:21:37 that it was the police
02:21:38 who called GDIT?
02:21:42 No, not to me.
02:21:44 This is a police record,
02:21:46 but it just refers to the fact
02:21:48 that somebody called.
02:21:50 Right.
02:21:51 Going back to the Kerry log,
02:21:54 which we looked at
02:21:55 earlier on,
02:21:56 which is RBK00028849.
02:22:00 Perhaps we should just
02:22:01 have both of these on the
02:22:02 screen at the same time.
02:22:03 We can do that, Mr Laiton.
02:22:05 So keep CAD 482 on the screen
02:22:08 and then put up on the screen,
02:22:10 please, the Kerry log,
02:22:12 RBK00028849.
02:22:16 Okay.
02:22:17 So, I think we've got
02:22:18 a couple of questions
02:22:19 for you, Mr Laiton.
02:22:20 I think we've got a couple
02:22:21 of questions for you, Mr Laiton.
02:22:22 So, I think we've got a couple
02:22:23 of questions for you, Mr Laiton.
02:22:24 So, I think we've got a couple
02:22:25 of questions for you, Mr Laiton.
02:22:27 Okay.
02:22:28 And compare the two,
02:22:31 you've got David Kerry
02:22:33 marking a call from you
02:22:35 at 0221,
02:22:37 where you say,
02:22:38 police call GDIT at 0203,
02:22:42 and we've also got the
02:22:44 message on the counter
02:22:46 at 021002.
02:22:48 Is it possible to link
02:22:50 those together in some way?
02:22:53 It's possible, but it's not.
02:22:56 Right.
02:22:58 You're clear in your recollection,
02:23:01 are you, that the police called...
02:23:03 It was the police who called
02:23:04 the GDIT at 0203.
02:23:07 That is my understanding.
02:23:09 Well, that's certainly
02:23:10 David Kerry's note,
02:23:12 and this doesn't help you
02:23:13 clarify that any further.
02:23:15 This CA police...
02:23:17 That's the police document
02:23:18 saying that ties in.
02:23:20 Right.
02:23:21 That ties in.
02:23:23 It may tie in.
02:23:25 What does it tie in with,
02:23:26 let me ask you?
02:23:27 It just ties into who made the call
02:23:29 initially into the Addabelle Service.
02:23:32 Right.
02:23:34 And it might tie in...
02:23:35 Well, does it also tie in
02:23:36 with the time of 0221,
02:23:38 which is the time of your call
02:23:39 to David Kerry?
02:23:40 Yes, it would.
02:23:41 Right.
02:23:42 So that then leaves
02:23:43 outstanding the question
02:23:44 of the call at 0203.
02:23:46 Can you explain that?
02:23:47 No, I cannot.
02:23:48 Okay.
02:23:50 Looking back at that, then,
02:23:51 and reflecting on it,
02:23:52 you told us earlier
02:23:54 that you thought that it was
02:23:55 the LFB who had called GDIT.
02:23:57 Yes.
02:23:58 Is that right?
02:24:00 Not according to this, no.
02:24:02 Right.
02:24:03 Might you be wrong
02:24:04 that it was the LFB?
02:24:05 I could have been wrong.
02:24:06 Okay.
02:24:12 Mr. Nathan,
02:24:13 thank you very much.
02:24:14 You'll be glad to know
02:24:15 that I've come to the end
02:24:16 of my questions for you
02:24:17 this morning.
02:24:18 The normal process
02:24:19 is that we then rise
02:24:20 for a few minutes
02:24:21 so that I can double-check
02:24:22 with my mates and my team
02:24:23 whether I've covered everything
02:24:24 and then maybe some other
02:24:25 questions that people have.
02:24:27 So I'm going to ask the chairman
02:24:28 to rise for five minutes
02:24:29 just to allow that to happen.
02:24:31 Well, this is to give
02:24:32 Mr. Millett a chance
02:24:33 to order his thoughts
02:24:34 and check he's asked
02:24:35 all the right questions.
02:24:36 So we'll rise now
02:24:37 for five minutes,
02:24:38 come back at 10 to 12,
02:24:40 and same drill as before,
02:24:41 don't talk to anyone
02:24:42 about your evidence, please.
02:24:44 And the usher will look
02:24:45 after you.
02:24:46 All right?
02:24:47 Thank you.
02:24:51 All right.
02:25:02 Ten to twelve, I think.
02:25:21 Thank you.
02:25:46 Thank you.
02:26:11 Thank you.
02:26:36 Thank you.
02:27:01 Thank you.
02:27:26 Thank you.
02:27:51 Thank you.
02:28:16 Thank you.
02:28:41 Thank you.
02:29:06 Thank you.
02:29:31 Thank you.
02:29:56 Thank you.
02:30:21 Thank you.
02:30:46 Thank you.
02:31:11 Thank you.
02:31:26 Will that Mr. Millett,
02:31:28 one or two questions?
02:31:29 One or two, Mr. Chairman,
02:31:30 yes, thank you.
02:31:50 All right, Mr. Latham,
02:31:51 I think Mr. Millett's
02:31:52 got one or two questions,
02:31:53 so let's see how we go.
02:31:54 Yes, Mr. Chairman,
02:31:55 thank you very much.
02:31:56 Mr. Latham,
02:31:57 thank you for coming back to us.
02:31:58 There are just one or two.
02:31:59 First of all,
02:32:00 in terms of your training
02:32:01 as a lay low,
02:32:03 were these desktop training
02:32:04 sessions or programmes
02:32:06 or were they hands-on practical?
02:32:09 Desktop training sessions.
02:32:10 Desktop.
02:32:12 Secondly,
02:32:13 did you ever have any prior
02:32:14 dealings with Robert Black?
02:32:18 Before Grenfell Tower.
02:32:19 Before Grenfell Tower.
02:32:20 Never.
02:32:21 And you ever met him before?
02:32:23 Nothing I'm aware of.
02:32:25 Right.
02:32:26 Finally,
02:32:27 can I ask you to look please
02:32:28 at your own note of the night
02:32:29 at Rbk 00029036,
02:32:34 page two.
02:32:42 And as we can see,
02:32:44 two-thirds of the way down the page
02:32:46 at the time of 0550,
02:32:48 this is the TCM,
02:32:49 and your record of it.
02:32:50 We looked at it a moment ago
02:32:52 before the break,
02:32:53 and under the line
02:32:55 towards the bottom of the page,
02:32:56 it says numbers all rest centres,
02:32:58 names and addresses.
02:33:00 Can you just help us?
02:33:01 What is the reference there
02:33:02 to names and addresses?
02:33:05 We were trying to get information
02:33:09 from the rest centres
02:33:11 of any persons that were there
02:33:13 so that we could tell the fire brigade
02:33:16 people that we were known
02:33:18 were out of the tower.
02:33:20 Right.
02:33:21 So is that then therefore
02:33:24 not a reference to your raising
02:33:27 or being told about the need
02:33:28 for a list of residents in the tower?
02:33:31 No, it's not.
02:33:32 It's not.
02:33:34 Would it have helped the process
02:33:36 of identifying people
02:33:37 by name and address
02:33:38 at the rest centres
02:33:39 to have had a list of residents?
02:33:42 Yes, it would.
02:33:44 Mr Chairman,
02:33:45 I have nothing further.
02:33:46 Yes.
02:33:47 Mr Lakin,
02:33:48 I have no further questions for you.
02:33:49 It just remains for me
02:33:50 to thank you very much
02:33:51 for coming today
02:33:52 and assisting the inquiry
02:33:54 with our investigations.
02:33:55 We very much appreciate it.
02:33:56 So thank you.
02:33:57 I'd add my thanks
02:33:58 to those of you Mr Millett.
02:34:00 Mr Lakin,
02:34:01 I'm sorry,
02:34:02 I think it must have been difficult
02:34:03 for you at various points
02:34:05 in dealing with these matters
02:34:06 and I'm sorry about that,
02:34:07 but you have to understand
02:34:10 that your evidence
02:34:11 is very helpful to us.
02:34:12 Yes.
02:34:13 So we're very grateful to you
02:34:14 for coming along
02:34:15 to tell us what you were doing
02:34:16 and your experience on the night.
02:34:20 Thank you very much
02:34:21 for coming to give your evidence.
02:34:23 Right, now you're free to go.
02:34:24 Would you like to go with the usher?
02:34:25 She'll look after you.
02:34:41 Yes, Mr Millett.
02:34:43 Mr Chairman,
02:34:44 we are, I think, able
02:34:45 to go directly
02:34:46 into our next witness.
02:34:47 Right.
02:34:48 Without any change of scenery.
02:34:50 So I now call,
02:34:52 unless I'm wrong about that,
02:34:54 I now call Mr Mike Rumble
02:34:56 of RBKC please.
02:34:58 Yes, thank you.
02:35:20 I think you may have been wrong
02:35:23 about that.
02:35:24 I thought we were about
02:35:25 to have an inquiry first,
02:35:26 but never mind.
02:35:31 This witness is going to stand,
02:35:33 as you can tell,
02:35:34 to give his evidence.
02:35:35 Shall I see?
02:35:36 Yes.
02:35:37 I thought I would explain that
02:35:38 for those who perhaps
02:35:39 aren't able to see
02:35:40 what we can see.
02:35:50 Thank you.
02:36:05 Thank you very much.
02:36:06 You've been on the call
02:36:07 of duty, have you?
02:36:20 Thank you.
02:36:47 I swear by Almighty God
02:36:49 that the evidence I shall give
02:36:51 shall be the truth
02:36:53 the whole truth
02:36:54 and nothing but the truth.
02:36:56 Thank you very much,
02:36:57 Mr Rumble.
02:36:58 I know you're going to stand,
02:36:59 aren't you?
02:37:00 I am.
02:37:01 Thank you, sir.
02:37:02 Good. Thank you.
02:37:03 Yes, Mr Millett.
02:37:04 Mr Rumble,
02:37:05 could you please give
02:37:06 the inquiry your full name?
02:37:07 Michael John Scott Rumble.
02:37:09 Can I start by thanking you
02:37:11 very much for attending
02:37:12 the inquiry today
02:37:13 and assisting us
02:37:14 with our investigations
02:37:15 and the investigation
02:37:16 that we've been doing
02:37:17 for the past few weeks?
02:37:18 Thank you, sir.
02:37:19 As you've said,
02:37:20 we've been very hard on
02:37:21 you with the investigations.
02:37:22 We very much appreciate
02:37:23 you're doing so.
02:37:24 My questions are intended
02:37:26 to be short and simple.
02:37:27 Sometimes they don't
02:37:28 work out their way,
02:37:29 so if you need me
02:37:30 to repeat it
02:37:31 or put the question
02:37:32 in a different way,
02:37:33 I'm very happy to do so.
02:37:34 Equally, recalling some
02:37:35 of the events of the night
02:37:36 may be difficult at times,
02:37:38 and if you need a break
02:37:39 at any point,
02:37:40 please let us know.
02:37:41 Thank you.
02:37:42 Now, you've provided
02:37:43 two witness statements
02:37:44 for us.
02:37:45 The first is your
02:37:46 Metropolitan Police
02:37:47 of some seven pages,
02:37:48 and that's RBK00028988,
02:37:55 and the second is your
02:37:57 Rule 9 witness statement
02:37:58 of the 24th of September,
02:37:59 2018, at RBK00029037
02:38:05 of some 10 pages.
02:38:07 Can I ask you,
02:38:08 first of all, please,
02:38:09 to look at the first
02:38:12 of those, your police
02:38:15 witness statement
02:38:16 which carries an RBK reference.
02:38:18 That's 00028988.
02:38:22 Yes.
02:38:23 Well, that's...
02:38:24 Well, it doesn't matter.
02:38:25 We'll stick with this one,
02:38:26 which is your inquiry statement
02:38:27 for the time being.
02:38:28 That's RBK29037,
02:38:31 as you can see.
02:38:32 Turn, please, to page 10.
02:38:35 That has a name
02:38:36 and a signature
02:38:37 and address under a statement
02:38:38 of truth.
02:38:39 Is that your signature?
02:38:40 It is, yes.
02:38:41 And have you read
02:38:42 this witness statement recently?
02:38:43 I have.
02:38:44 And can you confirm for us
02:38:45 that the contents are true?
02:38:46 I can confirm that it is true.
02:38:48 Thank you very much.
02:38:49 Now, it is true, yes.
02:38:53 And to look at the other statement,
02:38:55 please, the first one you did,
02:38:56 which is RBK00028988.
02:39:00 And turn, please,
02:39:01 to page 7 in that.
02:39:06 You can see a signature there.
02:39:10 Is that your signature?
02:39:11 It is.
02:39:12 And have you read
02:39:13 this statement recently?
02:39:14 I have.
02:39:15 Exhibited to your second statement
02:39:18 are a number of documents,
02:39:19 MJSR1 through to MJSR5.
02:39:24 And I'll just read those
02:39:25 formally into the record.
02:39:26 The first is a Jezip memoir,
02:39:28 RBK00029038.
02:39:33 That's MJSR1.
02:39:35 MJSR2 is your RBKC
02:39:38 or the RBKC Contingency
02:39:40 Management Plan,
02:39:41 RBK0004396
02:39:45 MJSR3 is the London Resilience
02:39:48 Major Incident Procedure Manual,
02:39:50 RBK00013294,
02:39:52 which you've got elsewhere.
02:39:54 MJSR4 is the Lambeth Laylow
02:39:57 Incident Pack you used on the night,
02:39:59 RBK00029039.
02:40:02 And MJSR5 is the Laylow Log,
02:40:05 14th of June,
02:40:06 RBK00028838.
02:40:13 Can I, on that last document,
02:40:18 just have that up there please,
02:40:19 RBK00028838.
02:40:23 I have one or two preliminary questions.
02:40:25 You can either hard copy
02:40:26 all that screen or that screen,
02:40:27 make your choice.
02:40:32 That's RBK00028838.
02:40:42 Now,
02:40:49 is that it?
02:40:52 Perhaps we should turn the next,
02:40:53 turn the pages.
02:40:58 And then turn the page again.
02:41:00 I think you start
02:41:02 at this next page there.
02:41:04 Correct, that's the log I commenced
02:41:07 when I arrived at the scene.
02:41:08 So you've exhibited, I think,
02:41:09 just as I say, is that it?
02:41:11 I think this works on the basis
02:41:12 you've exhibited both Nick Leighton's log
02:41:15 and yours.
02:41:16 Yes, that's correct.
02:41:17 Just to be clear.
02:41:18 That's the first page, is it,
02:41:20 of your Laylow Incident Pack
02:41:22 you filled out on the night?
02:41:23 It is.
02:41:24 How soon are, sorry,
02:41:26 when did you fill it out?
02:41:28 Was it at the time or afterwards?
02:41:29 Yes, so this particular log was
02:41:31 the one I was keeping on me
02:41:32 at all times,
02:41:33 and as the incident progressed,
02:41:36 whenever I got a spare moment,
02:41:38 I tried to fill in as much detail
02:41:39 as I could on that log.
02:41:41 Thank you.
02:41:42 Now, we'll come back to that
02:41:44 in due course.
02:41:45 Can I start, please,
02:41:46 by asking you some questions
02:41:47 about your position,
02:41:48 career, training and experience.
02:41:51 I think you've been a Parks Police Inspector
02:41:54 for RBKC since 2009.
02:41:57 That's correct, yes.
02:41:58 And since 2013,
02:42:00 that's been a bi-borrow roll
02:42:03 split or divided between RBKC
02:42:06 and the London borough
02:42:07 of Hammersmith and Fuller.
02:42:08 Correct.
02:42:10 And so you are essentially
02:42:12 in that role responsible
02:42:13 also for that borough, Hammersmith and Fuller.
02:42:15 Yes, so for the parks and open spaces
02:42:17 and cemeteries across those two boroughs.
02:42:19 Yes.
02:42:20 And you are a trained LALO.
02:42:23 Yes, I am.
02:42:24 And I think you've been
02:42:25 a trained LALO since October 2015.
02:42:28 Yes.
02:42:29 On the night of the Granville Tower fire,
02:42:31 were you a LALO
02:42:33 or a LALO Support Officer?
02:42:35 I was a LALO training officer
02:42:37 at that stage.
02:42:38 And so in official terms,
02:42:41 from the moment of your involvement,
02:42:43 did you have the same
02:42:44 official capacity as Nick Layton?
02:42:46 Indeed, yes.
02:42:50 Is there a formal role
02:42:52 of a LALO Support Officer?
02:42:54 There is.
02:42:55 It tends to be
02:42:57 somebody who's being trained as a LALO
02:43:00 will start as a LALO Support Officer
02:43:02 and then carry on the training
02:43:04 with the London Fire Brigade
02:43:05 and then after that
02:43:06 they are sort of a qualified LALO.
02:43:08 But you were there on the night
02:43:09 as a fully accredited LALO.
02:43:11 Correct, yes.
02:43:13 Now at paragraph 6.2
02:43:15 in your inquiry witness statement,
02:43:21 I'm sorry, 6.2
02:43:22 in your inquiry statement,
02:43:24 it's page 2, paragraph 6.2,
02:43:27 you explain the training
02:43:29 you had as a LALO
02:43:31 and we can see what you say there.
02:43:34 What form did the training
02:43:35 you described there take?
02:43:37 Was it desktop or was it...
02:43:40 No, there was a practical course
02:43:43 at London Fire Brigade Headquarters.
02:43:48 And was that in 2015?
02:43:52 Yes, that's correct.
02:43:53 October 2015.
02:43:54 Did that course involve
02:43:56 dealing with fires?
02:43:58 There were a number of fires
02:44:01 mentioned as part of that course.
02:44:04 But it wasn't a practical course
02:44:07 it was desktop
02:44:08 as far as that was concerned.
02:44:09 So it was going through
02:44:10 a number of scenarios.
02:44:11 Did that involve a fire
02:44:12 in a high rise residential block?
02:44:14 I believe they'd mentioned
02:44:16 a number of fires
02:44:18 that had happened.
02:44:20 It was part of the manual.
02:44:22 So there were fire brigade officers
02:44:25 addressing that course
02:44:26 who had experience of major fires.
02:44:29 Major fires, high rise fires?
02:44:31 Yes, I can't recall
02:44:32 whether the Lacanel House fire
02:44:34 had occurred,
02:44:35 whether that was one
02:44:36 of the case studies.
02:44:37 But certainly they mentioned
02:44:39 a number of fires involving
02:44:41 blocks of flats.
02:44:43 Right.
02:44:44 And were those fires
02:44:47 trained as major incidents
02:44:49 as part of that training?
02:44:50 Yes, they would have been
02:44:51 classified as major incidents.
02:44:53 Right.
02:44:54 And do you remember
02:44:56 it's difficult perhaps to recall
02:44:58 but what was your major
02:44:59 learning point
02:45:00 or takeaway message
02:45:01 from that training
02:45:02 so far as it involves
02:45:04 a major incident fire
02:45:05 in a high rise residential block?
02:45:08 Yes, I mean, I think
02:45:11 the term high rise
02:45:13 may be a little bit misleading.
02:45:14 I think some of the fires
02:45:15 may have been smaller
02:45:17 than high rise
02:45:18 but nevertheless
02:45:19 I think the training
02:45:20 around that was really
02:45:22 about the fire brigade's
02:45:23 primary role
02:45:25 and what they may then require
02:45:27 from us as LALOs
02:45:29 and from the local authority
02:45:31 in a support role.
02:45:32 And what was that?
02:45:34 It really was, I mean, obviously
02:45:36 going back to the LALO manual
02:45:39 the local authority role
02:45:41 obviously is one of sort of
02:45:44 going from the stage
02:45:45 of evacuating residents
02:45:47 to setting up rest centres,
02:45:49 repatriation centres
02:45:51 and eventually looking at
02:45:53 humanitarian housing needs
02:45:55 further down the line
02:45:57 and then ideally
02:45:58 repatriating those people
02:45:59 back to their premises
02:46:01 at the end of an incident.
02:46:03 Now, at page 3 of your statement
02:46:05 at paragraph 6.5
02:46:07 you refer to an exercise
02:46:11 unified response
02:46:13 at Dartford in March 2016
02:46:16 and you say that
02:46:17 you describe it as a large scale
02:46:19 multi-agency disaster
02:46:20 training drill.
02:46:25 Who else,
02:46:27 which other LALO
02:46:29 at RBKC, if any,
02:46:31 attended that training?
02:46:33 Yeah, as I recall
02:46:35 David Kerry,
02:46:36 who's the emergency services manager
02:46:39 I think he was there
02:46:40 for all four days
02:46:42 of the event
02:46:45 and I was acting, if you like
02:46:48 as the London local authorities LALO
02:46:50 on the final day
02:46:52 of that incident
02:46:53 or that exercise.
02:46:55 And what did that exercise involve?
02:46:57 It was a major tube crash
02:47:00 so it involved a scenario
02:47:02 involving a tube train
02:47:05 on which a building had collapsed
02:47:07 on top of it.
02:47:08 Right.
02:47:09 It was an extremely
02:47:10 realistic exercise
02:47:11 it had taken some months
02:47:12 to set up
02:47:13 and was a very good scenario.
02:47:18 Did that involve
02:47:19 mass evacuation
02:47:20 of the building or?
02:47:22 It was mainly evacuation
02:47:24 of two passengers
02:47:26 those who had been rescued
02:47:28 from the tube train
02:47:30 but obviously those
02:47:31 who had been
02:47:32 in the vicinity as well.
02:47:34 Right.
02:47:38 And what was the major
02:47:39 learning point
02:47:40 that you took away
02:47:41 from your participation
02:47:42 in that exercise?
02:47:43 I think from that
02:47:45 it was mainly around
02:47:47 joint working
02:47:48 with the other services.
02:47:50 Again, it was very apparent
02:47:51 that the fire brigade
02:47:52 had set up the exercise
02:47:54 and they were the lead agency on it.
02:47:57 So again, it was
02:47:58 taking our lead
02:47:59 from the lead agency
02:48:01 and trying to respond
02:48:02 and provide as many services
02:48:04 as we could
02:48:05 acting with the fire brigade
02:48:07 being the lead agency
02:48:08 from there.
02:48:10 And you say in paragraph 6.6
02:48:12 of your statement
02:48:13 second statement
02:48:14 of page 3
02:48:15 that you were the
02:48:16 lay low for LBHF
02:48:18 London Borough
02:48:19 of Hammersmith and Fulham
02:48:20 at the Shepard's Court Fire
02:48:22 in August 2016.
02:48:24 Although everyone
02:48:25 was evacuated safely
02:48:26 on that occasion
02:48:27 approximately 20 households
02:48:28 were unable to return
02:48:29 to their properties
02:48:30 that night
02:48:31 and had to be placed
02:48:32 at temporary local accommodation.
02:48:35 What did your role
02:48:36 entail at that incident?
02:48:40 I was on duty on that.
02:48:42 It was late
02:48:43 on a Friday afternoon.
02:48:45 It was obviously
02:48:46 a very busy period of the day
02:48:48 with people returning home.
02:48:50 So I was on duty
02:48:52 as the parks police inspector
02:48:53 when we heard
02:48:54 the message
02:48:55 about the incident occurring.
02:48:57 And basically
02:48:58 because we were on duty
02:48:59 I sort of volunteered
02:49:00 to go to the scene
02:49:01 and start the log
02:49:03 acting as the lay low
02:49:04 at the scene.
02:49:06 It was a very well
02:49:07 coordinated response.
02:49:09 We were lucky in that
02:49:10 we had the whole
02:49:11 of Shepard's Bush Green
02:49:12 available to us
02:49:14 as a marshalling point
02:49:15 for the fire appliances
02:49:17 and for the ambulance
02:49:18 and for police vehicles.
02:49:20 So it was, if you like,
02:49:21 a little bit of a
02:49:22 textbook incident
02:49:24 in that it did go
02:49:25 extremely well.
02:49:27 There was obviously
02:49:28 danger to life there
02:49:29 and there were flames
02:49:31 coming up the front
02:49:32 of that building
02:49:33 over about two or three
02:49:35 stories as I recall.
02:49:38 It was also very lucky
02:49:40 that there weren't
02:49:41 a lot of people
02:49:42 in the building at the time
02:49:43 so they were able
02:49:44 to be all evacuated safely.
02:49:46 I think some of them
02:49:47 came across to the green
02:49:48 to start with.
02:49:50 And then after that
02:49:51 we were also lucky
02:49:52 that within a couple
02:49:53 of hundred yards
02:49:54 of the premises
02:49:55 there was,
02:49:56 I forget what it was,
02:49:57 it was some sort
02:49:58 of community centre
02:50:00 that we were able
02:50:01 to get opened up
02:50:02 and that's where
02:50:03 the casualties
02:50:04 were initially taken.
02:50:07 And did you have
02:50:08 any particular difficulties
02:50:10 in obtaining information
02:50:12 which the emergency service
02:50:14 is required at that incident?
02:50:17 Not really
02:50:18 because the housing
02:50:19 department from H&F
02:50:20 were on the scene
02:50:21 very quickly.
02:50:23 We were able to
02:50:24 set up a, you know,
02:50:26 within the reception
02:50:26 centre an arrangement
02:50:30 of council staff in there
02:50:31 who were able to get
02:50:32 details of the residents
02:50:34 and which flats
02:50:35 they had come from.
02:50:36 And then after that
02:50:38 we coordinated with
02:50:40 a number of local hotels
02:50:42 who had actually offered
02:50:43 bed spaces for people
02:50:44 if they weren't able
02:50:45 to return to their flats
02:50:46 that day.
02:50:49 Were there any lessons
02:50:50 learnt or takeaway points
02:50:51 from the Shepherds Court fire
02:50:53 in August 2016
02:50:54 that you were able
02:50:55 to apply at Grenfell?
02:50:57 I think, again,
02:50:59 the principle of having areas
02:51:03 where we could take
02:51:04 people who had been evacuated
02:51:06 obviously worked very well
02:51:07 on that occasion,
02:51:08 but you were obviously
02:51:09 talking about a far
02:51:11 lesser number of people
02:51:12 than was at Grenfell.
02:51:16 Now, moving on to your role
02:51:18 in emergencies
02:51:19 as a lay low,
02:51:20 paragraph six you say
02:51:24 at the start of that paragraph
02:51:28 back on page two,
02:51:29 three lines down,
02:51:30 the lay low, you say,
02:51:32 is someone who is part
02:51:33 of an on-call response team
02:51:34 that attends incidents
02:51:36 on behalf of the local
02:51:37 authority and liaises
02:51:38 with the contingency
02:51:39 planning teams.
02:51:43 And then you say
02:51:44 the role is to be the link
02:51:45 between the incident scene
02:51:46 and the borough
02:51:47 via the Borough Emergency
02:51:48 Control Centre,
02:51:49 the BEC, if one is set up.
02:51:51 The key role is to be
02:51:53 the key role is to
02:51:54 survey, assess
02:51:55 and disseminate information
02:51:56 and to relay requests
02:51:57 from the emergency services
02:51:58 back to the BEC.
02:52:00 Now, the role of a lay low
02:52:04 I think is also set out
02:52:05 in the silver manual.
02:52:08 If I could show you that,
02:52:09 that's RVK00029035.
02:52:21 And it's page,
02:52:22 page 39 of that.
02:52:35 Would you agree
02:52:36 that those functions
02:52:37 set out there
02:52:38 under CMP 5.4?
02:52:40 It's very difficult to read
02:52:41 on the small screen.
02:52:42 Can you have it?
02:52:43 Which bit do you want
02:52:44 to refer to?
02:52:45 Yes, there.
02:52:46 I think we've blown it up.
02:52:47 Thank you.
02:52:49 Can you see that there?
02:52:50 Would you agree
02:52:51 that the functions set out there
02:52:52 as key tasks
02:52:53 and those six bullet points
02:52:56 were part of your role
02:52:58 on the night?
02:52:59 Yes, I would.
02:53:01 Now, we'll come back to that
02:53:03 or may come back to that shortly.
02:53:04 Going back to your statement,
02:53:06 can you please go to page 3?
02:53:12 Paragraph 8 there,
02:53:14 under the heading
02:53:15 14th of June 2017,
02:53:17 you say,
02:53:18 at approximately 2.45 hours
02:53:19 I received a telephone call
02:53:20 from David Kerry,
02:53:21 the RBKC Contingency Planning Manager,
02:53:24 and he informed me
02:53:25 that there was a major fire
02:53:26 at Grenfell Tower.
02:53:30 And you go on to say
02:53:32 that you were told
02:53:33 that Nick Layton,
02:53:34 the Borough Duty Officer
02:53:35 and Layla had already
02:53:36 been informed of the fire
02:53:37 and was making his way
02:53:38 to the scene,
02:53:39 but in light of the scale
02:53:40 of the fire,
02:53:41 further support was required.
02:53:42 Were you told at that stage
02:53:45 that the Metropolitan Police
02:53:47 had declared the fire
02:53:49 a major incident?
02:53:51 Not that I can recall, no.
02:53:53 Were you told
02:53:54 that the London Fire Brigade
02:53:56 had declared the fire
02:53:58 a major incident?
02:53:59 I don't believe
02:54:00 I was told at that time.
02:54:04 What level of major incident
02:54:06 did you or were you led
02:54:08 to believe this was?
02:54:11 From the information
02:54:12 that I got from Mr Kerry,
02:54:13 I'd obviously got the impression
02:54:15 that it was serious,
02:54:17 but obviously until
02:54:18 I arrived at the scene,
02:54:19 I didn't know quite
02:54:21 how serious it was.
02:54:23 And you're familiar,
02:54:25 we can look at it if you like,
02:54:27 with the yellow, amber,
02:54:28 red scales of seriousness.
02:54:31 Did there come a time
02:54:33 when you thought
02:54:34 it was level three major?
02:54:37 Obviously once I'd arrived
02:54:39 at the scene
02:54:40 and when I parked the vehicle
02:54:43 as close as I could get to it,
02:54:45 it was obviously very apparent
02:54:46 that in the network
02:54:47 of small streets
02:54:48 leading up to the tower,
02:54:50 just the sheer scale
02:54:52 of the number of fire appliances
02:54:54 and emergency vehicles there,
02:54:56 that this was,
02:54:57 I was certainly at that stage
02:54:59 I would have considered
02:55:00 a major incident.
02:55:02 Did you have a discussion
02:55:04 with Mr Layton
02:55:05 when you first found him
02:55:07 about manpower,
02:55:08 RBKC manpower
02:55:10 that you might need?
02:55:12 Not that I recall at that stage.
02:55:16 What did you understand
02:55:19 your role to have been
02:55:21 in attending,
02:55:22 given that Nick Layton
02:55:24 was already there as a Lalo
02:55:26 or was on his way?
02:55:28 Yes, so initially
02:55:29 it was to support him.
02:55:32 He obviously told me
02:55:34 that at a fairly early stage
02:55:36 he obviously had to return
02:55:38 to the town hall
02:55:39 to open up and carry out
02:55:41 his other duties there.
02:55:43 And so it was sort of apparent
02:55:45 that at some stage
02:55:46 in the next hour or two hours
02:55:48 I would be taking over from him
02:55:50 as the main Lalo on scene.
02:55:52 During the period
02:55:53 when you were there together
02:55:54 who was the,
02:55:55 if I can put it this way,
02:55:56 the senior Lalo
02:55:57 or were you equal?
02:55:58 I would say we were equal.
02:56:00 Because Nick was there earlier
02:56:02 and had a better grasp
02:56:03 of what was actually going on,
02:56:05 he carried on
02:56:07 with that particular role
02:56:09 which gave me an opportunity
02:56:10 to look at a number
02:56:11 of other aspects
02:56:12 and certainly familiarise
02:56:14 myself with the location.
02:56:16 I see.
02:56:17 And just briefly,
02:56:18 what other aspects
02:56:19 were you looking at?
02:56:20 Well, obviously one
02:56:21 of the other council premises
02:56:22 nearby was the
02:56:23 Kensington Leisure Centre.
02:56:25 Although it's owned
02:56:27 by the council,
02:56:28 it's operated by
02:56:29 Greenwich Leisure
02:56:30 who would be normally
02:56:32 arriving there
02:56:33 probably not before
02:56:34 seven o'clock in the morning.
02:56:36 So I needed to see
02:56:38 whether that premises
02:56:40 was actually accessible.
02:56:42 I was not aware
02:56:43 of that.
02:56:44 And when I arrived,
02:56:45 obviously it was open
02:56:47 and I think as we've learned,
02:56:49 it was broken into,
02:56:50 if you like,
02:56:51 by the police
02:56:52 or the fire service
02:56:53 as an obvious point
02:56:54 of using it
02:56:57 for the purpose
02:56:58 that it was used.
02:57:00 Now, just timing your
02:57:02 arrival at the scene,
02:57:03 you say in your second
02:57:05 statement at paragraph 8.3
02:57:06 on page 4,
02:57:08 if you can just have that
02:57:09 please on the screen,
02:57:11 in the second line
02:57:12 that you arrived
02:57:15 there at approximately
02:57:17 3.10 hours.
02:57:23 Is that right?
02:57:25 Yes, that's correct.
02:57:26 I probably arrived there
02:57:28 sort of six or seven minutes
02:57:29 earlier,
02:57:30 but obviously had to walk
02:57:32 from the nearest point
02:57:33 where I could leave the vehicle
02:57:34 to get to Paymore Road.
02:57:36 What were you using
02:57:37 when you did your statement
02:57:38 to approximate your time
02:57:39 of arrival as 0.310 hours?
02:57:42 Well, I looked at my watch
02:57:43 and just made a note.
02:57:45 Right.
02:57:46 Now, you say also
02:57:47 in that paragraph
02:57:48 in the next part
02:57:50 that you had a Laylow incident pack
02:57:53 issued by Lambeth Council
02:57:55 which contained a handy
02:57:56 aid-in-aim wire stroke
02:57:57 checklist on immediate
02:57:58 problems to consider
02:58:00 and you exhibited.
02:58:04 Is it right that RBKC,
02:58:06 as you say,
02:58:07 didn't have their own incident pack?
02:58:09 Yes, I mean, I believe
02:58:10 they used one that was provided
02:58:13 by the London Fire Brigade,
02:58:15 but essentially all that was
02:58:17 was a lined piece of A4
02:58:19 with a few notes on it.
02:58:21 I'd obviously acquired
02:58:22 the Lambeth Council pack
02:58:24 at the major incident exercise
02:58:26 at Dartford,
02:58:27 and I considered it
02:58:28 was a very useful document.
02:58:30 Right.
02:58:31 So luckily I was able
02:58:33 to locate it in the office
02:58:34 before I went to the scene.
02:58:36 A matter of chance.
02:58:37 Yes, yes.
02:58:38 I mean, I'd obviously kept it
02:58:39 with my notes from the Laylow course
02:58:43 and the documents
02:58:45 from the major incident exercise.
02:58:47 How did the Lambeth incident pack
02:58:50 help you?
02:58:52 I think, I mean,
02:58:53 I do like to make my notes
02:58:55 as effectively as possible.
02:58:57 It was a good layout
02:58:58 to do that,
02:58:59 but it also contained
02:59:00 a number of useful things,
02:59:02 like there's a chart
02:59:03 which shows the rank structure
02:59:05 of the London Fire Brigade
02:59:06 and the police,
02:59:07 and the keynotes
02:59:09 from methane
02:59:10 and the other mnemonics
02:59:12 that are used in the incident.
02:59:13 So, you know,
02:59:15 it was very useful
02:59:16 to have that with me.
02:59:17 Also sort of A5 fold oversize
02:59:19 which was useful
02:59:20 to keep in my pocket.
02:59:22 Can I just look at that with you?
02:59:23 It's MJS4,
02:59:26 MJSR4,
02:59:27 which is RBK00029039,
02:59:31 just to square that off,
02:59:33 Mr. Rumbl, if we can.
02:59:35 If we could just turn the pages
02:59:36 quickly to see how this pack
02:59:39 works.
02:59:42 So it looks like
02:59:43 it's a spiral-bound A5
02:59:45 with some contents in it.
02:59:46 Yes.
02:59:47 And various logs at the end
02:59:50 under the appendices.
02:59:52 And so did you,
02:59:54 and there's the reference
02:59:56 on page five,
02:59:57 if we could stop there,
02:59:58 to the methane.
02:59:59 Did you find that helpful to you?
03:00:00 Yeah, it was indeed, yes.
03:00:02 Yes.
03:00:03 Now,
03:00:05 you say in paragraph 8.5
03:00:13 or 8.3,
03:00:14 at the end of 8.3
03:00:15 and then in 8.5,
03:00:16 I located this fire control
03:00:18 silver vehicle
03:00:21 and it formed the command control
03:00:22 of my presence.
03:00:25 When you say the command control,
03:00:26 do you mean the LFB command unit?
03:00:29 Yes, I mean,
03:00:30 it was obviously very apparent
03:00:31 on my arrival
03:00:33 that this was a fire brigade-led incident
03:00:37 and, you know,
03:00:40 I knew that that's who
03:00:41 I would be reporting to.
03:00:43 I mean, normally,
03:00:44 ideally at a major incident,
03:00:45 you would have the fire brigade control,
03:00:49 the police control
03:00:50 and the ambulance control co-located.
03:00:53 I think because of the layout
03:00:54 and the narrow streets
03:00:56 around the area,
03:00:57 that wasn't possible.
03:00:59 So I definitely made
03:01:01 my initial point of contact
03:01:03 with my ongoing point of contact,
03:01:05 the fire brigade
03:01:06 silver command vehicle.
03:01:07 How long after arriving
03:01:08 at around 3.10,
03:01:10 do you think you made first contact
03:01:11 with the command unit?
03:01:13 Oh, within five or ten minutes.
03:01:15 Do you remember who you spoke to
03:01:16 at the command unit?
03:01:17 I don't.
03:01:18 I mean, I think I just knocked on the door
03:01:20 and reported my arrival to them.
03:01:22 Right.
03:01:23 And did they tell you anything
03:01:25 at that stage
03:01:26 about what they needed from you?
03:01:27 No, I think I can't recall
03:01:30 how long it was
03:01:31 before I located Nick Layton
03:01:34 and we then discussed
03:01:36 what would be required
03:01:37 from the local authority.
03:01:39 So at that stage,
03:01:41 I sort of gave them my contact details.
03:01:44 As far as I remember,
03:01:45 I probably gave them
03:01:46 my mobile phone number
03:01:47 and obviously said,
03:01:48 I'm on the scene
03:01:49 and if there's anything you want,
03:01:51 please get in contact.
03:01:53 And obviously,
03:01:54 I was told about the silver meeting
03:01:57 so I would then be aware
03:01:58 that when the next silver meeting
03:02:00 was going to take place.
03:02:03 Right.
03:02:05 And so at the time of your arrival,
03:02:07 did they tell you
03:02:08 that this first silver meeting
03:02:10 had happened yet
03:02:11 or was in progress
03:02:12 or was about to happen?
03:02:13 I got the impression
03:02:14 that Nick Layton
03:02:15 had probably just come
03:02:16 from one meeting,
03:02:17 so one had just recently taken place
03:02:21 and I obviously wasn't anticipating
03:02:23 the next one for at least an hour.
03:02:25 Okay.
03:02:26 We could follow this through
03:02:27 because you then say in 8.4
03:02:28 that you went to the
03:02:29 Kensington Leisure Centre
03:02:31 and then in 8.5 of your statement
03:02:33 on the screen there
03:02:34 towards the bottom of the Parley Scott.
03:02:35 Yes.
03:02:36 I returned to the silver command vehicle
03:02:38 and met up with Nick,
03:02:39 Nicholas Layton
03:02:40 who was acting as Lalo.
03:02:41 He informed me
03:02:42 that he'd attended
03:02:43 at a silver meeting
03:02:44 at 03.15 hours
03:02:46 and that approximately
03:02:47 100 people were believed
03:02:48 to still be inside
03:02:49 Grenfell Tower.
03:02:50 Now, was this the first occasion
03:02:54 on which you met Nick Layton
03:02:55 on the scene?
03:02:56 Sorry, was this the...
03:02:57 The first occasion
03:02:58 at which you met Nick Layton?
03:02:59 Yes, I believe so.
03:03:00 Right.
03:03:01 Now, we know that this meeting
03:03:02 finished at or around 03.32.
03:03:06 I don't need to show you
03:03:08 the log that the LFB made for that,
03:03:11 but would that sound about right to you
03:03:13 as to when you met Nick Layton first,
03:03:16 having arrived at around 03.10?
03:03:18 Yes.
03:03:19 Excellent.
03:03:20 Now...
03:03:26 Does that mean
03:03:26 that you're clear in your recollection
03:03:27 that you didn't attend
03:03:28 the first TCM?
03:03:30 That's correct, yes, I didn't.
03:03:37 Did you attend any of the TCMs
03:03:40 during the time that Nick Layton
03:03:41 was present at the incident?
03:03:43 As I recall,
03:03:44 I think the first one I attended
03:03:46 was the one approximately 07.10.
03:03:49 Yes.
03:03:50 That's after Nick Layton had left?
03:03:52 Yes.
03:03:53 I see.
03:03:56 When you met up with Nick Layton,
03:03:59 you say that he told you
03:04:00 that he'd had the silver meeting
03:04:01 and that approximately 100 people
03:04:03 were believed to still be
03:04:04 inside Granfell Tower.
03:04:06 Did he tell you anything else
03:04:08 as to what had transpired
03:04:09 at that first silver meeting?
03:04:11 Not really, no.
03:04:12 I mean, he did tell me
03:04:13 that obviously in our role
03:04:16 of looking at reception centres
03:04:18 and where we're going to house
03:04:22 people who'd been evacuated
03:04:23 from the tower,
03:04:25 he did tell me
03:04:26 that there had been one premises
03:04:29 on Shepherds Bush Green set up
03:04:31 which I believe may have been a pub
03:04:32 or similar premises
03:04:34 and they'd had that particular,
03:04:36 if you like,
03:04:37 volunteered their premises
03:04:38 to be set up.
03:04:39 Was that Belushi's?
03:04:40 I believe so, yes.
03:04:42 At the stage you met Nick Layton,
03:04:44 did you discuss
03:04:45 your respective responsibilities
03:04:47 in carrying out your Lele roles?
03:04:50 Only in general terms.
03:04:54 I was happy for Nick
03:04:56 to carry on as the primary Lele,
03:04:59 if you like,
03:05:00 which gave me a little bit of time
03:05:02 to look at the scenario
03:05:04 around the scene
03:05:05 and sort out a few other matters.
03:05:07 What did you agree
03:05:08 or discuss between yourselves
03:05:10 about what you would do?
03:05:13 I was looking at obviously premises
03:05:16 which we could use
03:05:18 for evacuating people too
03:05:21 and obviously the primary one there
03:05:23 was the Kensington Leisure Centre
03:05:26 but when I got there
03:05:27 it was obvious
03:05:28 that it had been entered
03:05:31 and it was being used
03:05:32 by the fire service
03:05:33 and the police
03:05:35 and that obviously was not going
03:05:36 to be a suitable location
03:05:38 to put residents in
03:05:41 and also it was, in my opinion,
03:05:44 far too close to the tower
03:05:47 because at that stage
03:05:48 we didn't know
03:05:50 whether there was a danger
03:05:51 of any form of collapse
03:05:53 Right. Did you discuss
03:05:55 the risk of collapse
03:05:56 with Nick Layton
03:05:57 at that first meeting
03:05:58 with him after the first meeting?
03:05:59 I can't recall
03:06:00 whether I discussed it
03:06:01 and obviously because
03:06:03 of the horrendous nature
03:06:04 of the fire
03:06:05 and obviously when I arrived
03:06:07 obviously I'd never experienced
03:06:08 anything like that
03:06:09 on that scale
03:06:11 but it was in my mind
03:06:14 that there could be a danger
03:06:17 of certainly debris falling
03:06:19 and there could be a danger
03:06:20 of collapse, yes.
03:06:23 So did you have a discussion
03:06:25 with Nick Layton at that stage
03:06:26 about the need
03:06:27 to have a dangerous
03:06:28 structures engineer present?
03:06:30 Not that I recall.
03:06:33 Now I'm going to turn
03:06:34 to the TMO
03:06:37 and just ask you first of all
03:06:40 to look at paragraph 9
03:06:41 of your statement.
03:06:44 You say there
03:06:47 at the top of page 5
03:06:49 and we can have this expanded
03:06:50 for you so you can see
03:06:51 it on the screen
03:06:52 I believe that the Kensington
03:06:53 and Chelsea Tenant Management
03:06:55 Organisation, TMO,
03:06:56 also have some form
03:06:57 of emergency call-out system.
03:06:59 There were representatives
03:07:00 from the TMO on site
03:07:01 from early on.
03:07:04 Now first of all
03:07:06 do you know what the TMO's
03:07:08 emergency call-out system
03:07:09 is or was?
03:07:11 Yes, only in very basic detail.
03:07:14 I mean I met the one TMO rep
03:07:17 there, Hash,
03:07:19 and I'm just wondering
03:07:22 I'm still not quite sure
03:07:23 what his role was
03:07:24 but I understood he had a role
03:07:27 in the management
03:07:28 of the Lancaster West Estate.
03:07:30 Right, did you know
03:07:31 on the night whether or not
03:07:32 the TMO had activated
03:07:34 their own emergency plan?
03:07:36 Not until later,
03:07:38 you know a lot later
03:07:39 in the day.
03:07:41 Right, and what did you discover
03:07:43 later in the day
03:07:44 that they had
03:07:45 or that they hadn't
03:07:46 activated their own emergency plan?
03:07:48 When I spoke to,
03:07:49 I obviously spoke to Mr Black,
03:07:50 the Chief Executive
03:07:51 if he was on the scene
03:07:52 at a fairly early stage,
03:07:53 and Theresa Brown,
03:07:55 and in speaking to them
03:07:57 it was obvious that they had
03:08:00 called out if you like
03:08:01 a number of members of staff
03:08:03 to assist either at the scene
03:08:05 or back at the sort of
03:08:08 TMO offices.
03:08:10 So it was apparent for me
03:08:11 that they were aware
03:08:14 of the seriousness
03:08:15 of the situation
03:08:16 and whether they'd got
03:08:17 a formal call-out procedure
03:08:18 or not, I'm not sure,
03:08:19 but they were getting the staff
03:08:22 in if you like.
03:08:23 Right, just standing back
03:08:25 from it for a moment,
03:08:27 did you know on the night
03:08:29 what would happen
03:08:30 if they had their own plan
03:08:32 and activated it,
03:08:33 how that would link
03:08:34 with your plan?
03:08:35 Not specifically, no.
03:08:36 Okay, now at paragraph 9
03:08:40 of your statement
03:08:41 that we're on,
03:08:42 you go on to say
03:08:43 around the time
03:08:44 I met with Nicholas Layton
03:08:45 I also made contact
03:08:46 with someone
03:08:47 whom I only know as Hatch,
03:08:48 I believe that he was a warden
03:08:50 from the TMO
03:08:52 and that's I think Hatch Shamshoon.
03:08:55 I believe so, yes.
03:08:56 I didn't know his name at the time.
03:08:58 Right.
03:08:59 You didn't know his name
03:09:00 at the time.
03:09:01 Had you ever met him before?
03:09:02 No.
03:09:04 And where did you make
03:09:07 that contact with Hatch?
03:09:09 Again, it was outside
03:09:10 the Farbligate Silver Command
03:09:12 vehicle and I think obviously
03:09:14 he was with Nicholas Layton
03:09:16 when I first met him
03:09:17 I see.
03:09:18 And who introduced Hatch to you?
03:09:21 Did he introduce himself?
03:09:22 I believe that was Nicholas, yes.
03:09:24 I see.
03:09:25 Did you have any discussion
03:09:26 with Hatch?
03:09:28 Only in the sort of vaguest terms
03:09:30 to ensure that he was in contact
03:09:33 with the rest of the TMO
03:09:35 if you like.
03:09:36 Did you ask him anything specific
03:09:38 or did you ask him for anything specific?
03:09:40 Not at that stage, no.
03:09:41 I mean it was,
03:09:43 you know, he was a very
03:09:45 he was,
03:09:47 it was obviously he had knowledge
03:09:49 of the neighbourhood
03:09:51 but his other role
03:09:54 I'm not sure of.
03:09:56 Was he there when you arrived
03:09:57 or did he arrive
03:09:58 a lot later?
03:09:59 I think he was probably there.
03:10:00 I mean obviously when I,
03:10:01 he was there with Nicholas
03:10:02 when I first met Nicholas.
03:10:04 Okay.
03:10:05 Did you provide him with a radio
03:10:06 or some kind of means
03:10:07 of communication?
03:10:08 I did, yes.
03:10:09 I brought a couple of our spare
03:10:11 council radios with me
03:10:12 to the scene
03:10:13 and I gave them a radio each
03:10:15 just to hopefully facilitate
03:10:17 better communication.
03:10:19 Right.
03:10:20 So would that mean
03:10:21 that he was able to communicate
03:10:22 with anybody?
03:10:23 Well, let me ask it this way.
03:10:24 Who would Hatch have been able
03:10:26 to communicate
03:10:27 by using the radio you gave him?
03:10:28 Yeah, the council radio system
03:10:30 which is primarily used
03:10:31 by the Parks Police
03:10:32 but also by neighbourhood wardens
03:10:34 and sort of out of office services
03:10:36 like that
03:10:37 is on what's called
03:10:38 a talk through system.
03:10:39 Right.
03:10:40 So anybody can talk
03:10:41 to anybody else
03:10:42 it's monitored by the 24-7
03:10:45 CCTV room in Hammersmith Town Hall
03:10:49 which covers both boroughs.
03:10:51 So it's a useful way
03:10:53 of obviously communicating
03:10:54 with other council staff.
03:10:56 Does that mean that Hatch Shamchoo
03:10:58 if he broadcast a message
03:11:00 over the radio you gave him
03:11:02 could be heard by those
03:11:05 RBKC officers who had their
03:11:07 radios with them and on?
03:11:09 That's correct, yes.
03:11:10 Now you then go on
03:11:12 in the same paragraph
03:11:13 of your statement,
03:11:14 second statement, paragraph 9, page 5
03:11:16 to say TMO representatives
03:11:19 were not allowed
03:11:20 into the silver meetings
03:11:21 so as LELO we also had to act
03:11:23 as the liaison between the TMO
03:11:24 and the emergency services.
03:11:26 Robert Black, the chief executive
03:11:27 of the TMO
03:11:28 and Theresa Brown
03:11:29 also of the TMO
03:11:30 were in attendance.
03:11:32 First of all,
03:11:34 do you remember what time
03:11:37 Robert Black was present
03:11:39 when Robert Black arrived?
03:11:43 I can't recall exactly.
03:11:44 I mean I think he was in the
03:11:46 vicinity in advance
03:11:48 of the silver meeting
03:11:50 at 7.10.
03:11:52 Right.
03:11:53 So probably you know
03:11:54 maybe between half past 6
03:11:55 and 7.00.
03:11:57 Roughly what time
03:11:59 do you recall you
03:12:01 were aware of his presence
03:12:02 at the incident?
03:12:04 Again, I would think
03:12:06 I mean I came back
03:12:07 to the silver vehicle
03:12:09 probably 10 to 20 minutes
03:12:11 before the 7.10 meeting
03:12:14 and as I recall
03:12:15 it's a bit difficult obviously
03:12:17 to because I obviously met
03:12:18 an awful lot of people
03:12:19 on the night
03:12:20 but I've got a recollection
03:12:22 that I did meet him
03:12:23 and Theresa Brown
03:12:24 before that 7.10 meeting.
03:12:27 Do you have a recollection
03:12:28 of meeting either
03:12:29 of those individuals
03:12:31 at any stage prior
03:12:32 to that meeting,
03:12:33 prior to that 20 minute point
03:12:35 prior to the meeting?
03:12:37 Yeah, not that I can recall
03:12:39 right.
03:12:42 Do you remember
03:12:43 what the first matter
03:12:45 that you discussed with them
03:12:46 was either of them?
03:12:50 I think obviously they
03:12:53 came to me
03:12:54 as the council representative
03:12:56 to offer their services
03:12:58 and say that they
03:12:59 were at the scene
03:13:01 and so I think at that stage
03:13:03 I knew that the 7.10 meeting
03:13:05 was about to take place
03:13:07 and then I think what I said
03:13:08 to them was
03:13:09 well obviously after that meeting
03:13:11 I'll get back to you
03:13:12 and it made sense then
03:13:15 to attend that meeting
03:13:16 find out what the requirements
03:13:17 from the fire service were
03:13:19 and then speak
03:13:20 to the TMO representatives.
03:13:22 Had you ever come across
03:13:24 Robert Black or Theresa Brown
03:13:25 before?
03:13:26 Not personally,
03:13:27 I think I may have met him
03:13:29 at one meeting
03:13:30 but only in passing.
03:13:33 Now you say
03:13:34 as I've just read to you
03:13:35 that the TMO representatives
03:13:36 were not allowed
03:13:37 into silver meetings.
03:13:39 Why is that?
03:13:40 I think because
03:13:42 of the major incident structure
03:13:46 the key participants
03:13:47 obviously are the emergency services
03:13:50 and the council
03:13:51 as a key partner within that
03:13:55 so other organisations
03:13:56 who could assist
03:13:58 and may well have a part
03:14:00 later on in the incident
03:14:03 are not necessarily invited
03:14:06 to that meeting.
03:14:07 Obviously people like
03:14:08 the gas service
03:14:09 and London Transport
03:14:13 and various utilities
03:14:14 if you like
03:14:15 can be party to that meeting
03:14:16 but they're not always invited
03:14:18 to every meeting.
03:14:19 It depends on
03:14:20 the fire brigade commander
03:14:21 will have the ultimate say
03:14:22 as to who comes to that meeting.
03:14:25 Was there any discussion
03:14:26 at the time that you can recall
03:14:27 about whether the TMO
03:14:29 should have been
03:14:30 at any of those silver meetings?
03:14:32 Not that I can recall.
03:14:33 Right.
03:14:38 Now, were you aware
03:14:43 at any time before
03:14:45 Nick Layton left the scene
03:14:47 that he had been asking
03:14:51 Robert Black
03:14:52 for details of residents
03:14:54 of Grenfell Tower?
03:14:57 I don't believe
03:14:58 that was specifically mentioned
03:14:59 to me at that stage.
03:15:03 What about details
03:15:04 of the residents
03:15:05 who were at rest centres?
03:15:08 That was, I mean, again,
03:15:12 I can't say,
03:15:13 I can't recall
03:15:14 what that was specifically
03:15:15 asked for.
03:15:19 Were you aware
03:15:21 that requests that had been made
03:15:23 by Nick Layton
03:15:24 to the TMO
03:15:25 for a list of residents
03:15:27 of the tower
03:15:28 were outstanding
03:15:30 by the time of the third TCM
03:15:33 at 0550?
03:15:36 Is that something you knew?
03:15:38 Yes, again,
03:15:39 I can't recall that.
03:15:43 When or after
03:15:44 Nick Layton left the scene,
03:15:46 do you remember following up
03:15:47 the question
03:15:48 or chasing the TMO
03:15:50 for a list of residents?
03:15:53 I did at some stage
03:15:54 ask them for that
03:15:55 list of residents.
03:15:56 I've got the feeling
03:15:57 that that was though
03:15:58 after the 710 meeting.
03:16:01 Right.
03:16:03 Do you remember
03:16:04 observing any direct contact
03:16:06 between the TMO staff
03:16:08 and the emergency services?
03:16:11 At some stage,
03:16:12 I was made aware
03:16:13 that Mr Black had on his phone
03:16:17 a floor plan
03:16:18 of part of the tower
03:16:20 and I think he then spoke
03:16:24 through the hatch,
03:16:25 so there is a sort of hatch
03:16:26 on the silver vehicle
03:16:28 whereby a fire brigade
03:16:30 can speak to anybody
03:16:31 outside the vehicle
03:16:33 and I recall at some stage
03:16:35 that he was speaking
03:16:36 with them
03:16:37 about what he may have
03:16:39 got on his mobile phone
03:16:40 but I can't recall
03:16:41 the time that took place.
03:16:43 Okay, we'll come back
03:16:44 to that in a minute
03:16:45 and follow that up.
03:16:46 Before I do,
03:16:47 can I ask you
03:16:48 to look at paragraph 11
03:16:49 of your statement
03:16:53 and just summarising it there,
03:16:55 you set out there
03:16:57 the arrangements you made
03:16:58 for other parks,
03:16:59 police, constables,
03:17:00 including two experienced
03:17:01 officers to attend the scene
03:17:06 and they arrived at 7.40,
03:17:10 you go on to say,
03:17:11 Tilbury and Pullen arrived
03:17:13 at about 7.40,
03:17:15 does that mean
03:17:16 that for a period
03:17:18 until their arrival
03:17:19 you were actually
03:17:20 the sole lay low at the scene?
03:17:22 It does, yes.
03:17:23 Okay.
03:17:26 Were there any
03:17:27 outstanding priorities
03:17:28 that you recall
03:17:29 you had to address
03:17:31 once he had gone
03:17:32 but before they arrived?
03:17:34 I think obviously
03:17:36 the actions from the 7.10 meeting
03:17:39 were the ones
03:17:40 that I was trying
03:17:41 to get sorted out
03:17:42 at that stage.
03:17:45 And do you remember
03:17:47 what those were?
03:17:49 I believe one of them
03:17:51 was the request
03:17:52 from the fire brigade,
03:17:54 the most urgent request
03:17:56 was the one for plans
03:17:58 of the building.
03:17:59 Now we'll come to that.
03:18:03 Before I do,
03:18:04 just a couple of questions,
03:18:05 do you know
03:18:11 or can you help me
03:18:12 with whether you know
03:18:13 whether Mr Black
03:18:15 or indeed Theresa Brown
03:18:16 had asked anybody else
03:18:18 within the TMO
03:18:19 for a list of residents?
03:18:22 I don't,
03:18:23 I mean most of the requests
03:18:25 for the TMO I passed on
03:18:26 to Theresa Brown
03:18:29 but what happened
03:18:31 subsequently,
03:18:32 who she asked I wouldn't know.
03:18:34 Okay, now we come then
03:18:35 to the fourth TCM,
03:18:37 silver at 7.13 or so
03:18:40 and I want to take you
03:18:46 to your log
03:18:48 which is RBEK00028838
03:18:53 please.
03:19:01 And this starts
03:19:03 on page,
03:19:04 I think page four,
03:19:05 correct me if I'm wrong,
03:19:06 but it starts on page four
03:19:10 in the bottom part
03:19:12 of the document
03:19:14 underneath the spiral bound
03:19:15 half way down,
03:19:16 07.10 silver meeting,
03:19:18 is that right?
03:19:19 Yes.
03:19:20 So this is your record
03:19:21 of that meeting
03:19:23 that you were taking,
03:19:25 is this right
03:19:26 contemporaneously
03:19:27 with the meeting?
03:19:28 Yeah, I tried to get down
03:19:30 and obviously the
03:19:31 silver command vehicle
03:19:32 is very cramped
03:19:34 and there were probably
03:19:35 a dozen or more people
03:19:36 in there so
03:19:37 I am trying to obviously
03:19:39 scribble as much as I can
03:19:41 down in that limited space.
03:19:44 Now, going over the page
03:19:47 to page five of that,
03:19:48 do your notes continue
03:19:50 of where you're recording
03:19:53 what was happening
03:19:54 at that meeting?
03:19:55 Yes.
03:19:56 Now picking it up
03:19:58 at the bottom
03:19:59 or towards the bottom
03:20:00 of page five
03:20:01 you can see
03:20:02 there is a pair
03:20:06 of asterisks action
03:20:08 and then second asterisk
03:20:10 electoral roll question mark.
03:20:12 Yeah.
03:20:17 Does that record
03:20:18 that you were asked
03:20:20 to obtain a copy
03:20:21 of the electoral roll?
03:20:23 Yes.
03:20:24 And you say in your statement
03:20:26 in paragraph 11.1
03:20:28 that you were also asked
03:20:29 for a floor plan
03:20:30 from the TMO.
03:20:32 Correct.
03:20:33 And is that because
03:20:34 we see that
03:20:35 is the prompt for that
03:20:36 that we see that recorded
03:20:37 in your contemporaneous note?
03:20:38 Yes.
03:20:39 Now there is a tick
03:20:40 next to that.
03:20:41 What does that signify?
03:20:45 Difficult to recall now.
03:20:46 I think it was
03:20:48 my indication
03:20:50 that I had actioned that
03:20:51 by actually requesting
03:20:53 that from the TMO.
03:20:55 Right.
03:20:56 Now going back
03:20:57 to your statement
03:20:58 if I can please
03:20:59 you say in paragraph 11.1
03:21:05 there Nicholas Leighton
03:21:08 had to leave the scene
03:21:09 at approximately 6.30
03:21:10 as he had to go
03:21:11 to the town hall
03:21:12 and unlock it
03:21:13 in readiness
03:21:14 for the staff arriving
03:21:15 that day.
03:21:16 Just pausing there
03:21:17 Nicholas Leighton
03:21:18 in his statement
03:21:19 says he left about 7am.
03:21:21 Who do you think is right?
03:21:27 I think I probably
03:21:28 lost sight of him
03:21:29 around about 6.30.
03:21:31 And obviously I don't know
03:21:33 how he got back to the town hall
03:21:35 whether he had to walk back there.
03:21:38 Now in that same paragraph
03:21:42 if one looks about
03:21:43 two thirds of the way down it
03:21:45 paragraph 11.1
03:21:46 you say it was at this meeting
03:21:48 that the LFB commander
03:21:49 indicated that there was likely
03:21:50 to be significant fatalities.
03:21:52 I was also asked to obtain
03:21:54 a copy of the electoral roll
03:21:55 for Grenfell Tower
03:21:56 from RBKC
03:21:56 as well as a floor plan
03:21:58 from the TMO.
03:21:59 This was the first time
03:22:01 you say these requests
03:22:02 had been made.
03:22:06 Do you mean there
03:22:07 that this was the first time
03:22:08 you had been asked
03:22:09 or do you mean
03:22:10 that this was the first time
03:22:11 RBKC had been asked?
03:22:13 Certainly it was the first time
03:22:15 I had been asked
03:22:16 and I don't recall
03:22:18 Nick Leighton
03:22:19 telling me
03:22:20 that he had been asked
03:22:21 before that time.
03:22:23 Right.
03:22:26 Now in terms of a floor plan
03:22:34 again do you think
03:22:37 that was the first time
03:22:38 that RBKC had been asked?
03:22:44 I wouldn't be able to say
03:22:45 that with any certainty
03:22:46 because obviously there are
03:22:48 other methods of communication
03:22:50 so somebody else from RBKC
03:22:53 could have been asked
03:22:54 by somebody from the TMO
03:22:55 via another channel.
03:22:57 But for me as Lalo
03:22:59 that was the first request
03:23:00 that had been made
03:23:01 to me in that role.
03:23:03 Okay.
03:23:04 Now I'm just going to play
03:23:05 to you if I can
03:23:06 some footage
03:23:07 which was taken
03:23:08 on Mr. Ollyspector Thatcher's
03:23:10 body worn video
03:23:11 of this part of that meeting.
03:23:14 It's INQ quintuple 0518
03:23:18 and it's an adjusted time
03:23:19 of 7.29am and 45 seconds
03:23:22 to 7.30am and 15 seconds
03:23:25 so it's just over a minute
03:23:27 if we can please have that
03:23:28 and what I'm going to be
03:23:29 looking at is what is being
03:23:30 said about plans if I can.
03:23:36 Can I just confirm as well
03:23:38 and we have been asking this
03:23:40 for a very long time
03:23:41 have they been given plans
03:23:44 before any plans
03:23:45 and what I've got
03:23:46 back through local authority
03:23:48 you know I think it's going
03:23:49 to be a bit of a struggle.
03:23:50 As far as I'm aware
03:23:51 the guy from the TMO
03:23:52 the MD from the TMO
03:23:53 has got plans on his
03:23:54 phone and he was looking
03:23:56 at what to bring them
03:23:57 through to something
03:23:58 so.
03:23:59 What it's worth I've got
03:24:00 a picture from the
03:24:01 BA control that they have
03:24:03 of a standard floor
03:24:05 but also we know
03:24:06 which numbers of labs are.
03:24:07 Sending it on a phone
03:24:08 is no good for me
03:24:09 so if that and I hate
03:24:11 to say this and please
03:24:12 don't recall this
03:24:13 in the minutes
03:24:14 but having experienced
03:24:15 the back end of the
03:24:16 Lackdown inquiry
03:24:17 having been in charge
03:24:18 of other major incidents
03:24:20 I'm telling you now
03:24:21 that the fact you have
03:24:22 not been able to get
03:24:23 me a set of plans
03:24:24 actually as a set of plans
03:24:26 is a major deficiency
03:24:28 and will be highlighted
03:24:29 so do your best
03:24:31 to get someone else
03:24:32 within the council
03:24:33 to get those set of plans
03:24:34 if it comes back to this unit
03:24:35 we'll get it to the right people
03:24:36 have you been asked about it?
03:24:37 I've gone and sent a guide
03:24:38 to get calls trying to check
03:24:39 on my subject's system
03:24:41 and see if I can get
03:24:42 something as.
03:24:45 Now.
03:24:48 First of all
03:24:49 you've heard him
03:24:50 say there that
03:24:51 first of all
03:24:52 you were the gentleman
03:24:53 to identify yourself
03:24:54 in that footage
03:24:55 you were there
03:24:56 you were the gentleman
03:24:57 just towards the rise
03:24:58 of the phrase
03:24:59 and do you recall
03:25:01 incident commander
03:25:03 Rose saying that
03:25:04 we have been asking
03:25:05 for plans for a very long time?
03:25:07 I do yeah
03:25:08 and obviously at that stage
03:25:10 I thought it inappropriate
03:25:12 to sort of query that
03:25:13 because it was very
03:25:15 apparent from his
03:25:16 statement that
03:25:18 that was a major
03:25:20 demand from the fire service
03:25:22 and I suppose
03:25:23 my reaction to that was
03:25:24 well I may not have heard
03:25:26 that request before
03:25:28 but I'll certainly do my best
03:25:29 to action it.
03:25:31 Now it sounds as if
03:25:33 you had already discussed
03:25:34 the matter of plans
03:25:35 with somebody at the TMO
03:25:37 is that right or?
03:25:39 Again I don't have
03:25:41 a recollection of that
03:25:42 I mean the recollection
03:25:44 I do have is I came away
03:25:45 from that 710 meeting
03:25:47 with a clear message
03:25:48 ringing in my ears
03:25:49 that the fire brigade
03:25:50 wanted those plans
03:25:51 and that's when
03:25:52 I spoke to Theresa Brown.
03:25:54 Right there's a reference
03:25:55 to plans being available
03:25:57 on a mobile phone
03:25:58 can you assist us with that?
03:25:59 Yeah I'm not quite sure
03:26:01 how I found out about that
03:26:02 but certainly Robert Black
03:26:05 had on his mobile phone
03:26:07 it would appear a plan
03:26:10 of at least one floor
03:26:11 of the tower.
03:26:13 Now how that had arrived
03:26:14 whether that had been
03:26:15 emailed to him or WhatsApp
03:26:17 or whatever I don't know
03:26:18 or whether it was just
03:26:19 something he had
03:26:20 on his phone
03:26:21 anyhow but once I
03:26:23 discovered that
03:26:24 it obviously made sense
03:26:26 to tell the fire service
03:26:28 that that was the case
03:26:30 and make arrangements
03:26:32 for Mr Black to speak
03:26:34 with them directly.
03:26:36 Now going back to your
03:26:37 statement please
03:26:38 at paragraph 11.3
03:26:40 on page 6
03:26:43 we'll just wait to get
03:26:44 that up on the screen
03:26:45 you say we can have
03:26:47 this highlighted
03:26:48 at approximately 0740 hours
03:26:50 I was made aware
03:26:51 that Robert Black
03:26:52 had a copy of the plan
03:26:53 on one floor
03:26:54 on his mobile phone
03:26:56 just pausing there
03:27:01 where do you get the 0740
03:27:03 or approximately 0740
03:27:05 from?
03:27:08 Yeah I mean that was
03:27:10 obviously my recollection
03:27:11 that was roughly the time
03:27:12 that I became aware of that.
03:27:14 Did you become aware
03:27:15 of that during the meeting
03:27:16 or before this meeting
03:27:17 that we've seen videoed?
03:27:19 Yes I mean I think
03:27:20 I did mention something
03:27:21 about a mobile phone
03:27:22 in that clip
03:27:23 yes
03:27:24 so maybe I was
03:27:26 you know maybe that was my
03:27:28 my recollection of the time
03:27:30 was wrong at that particular juncture.
03:27:33 I was going to put it to you
03:27:35 is it possible that your 0740
03:27:36 is wrong and that
03:27:37 in fact you had come
03:27:39 to learn that Robert Black
03:27:40 had a copy of the plan
03:27:42 on a floor on his phone
03:27:43 prior to the start
03:27:44 of this meeting?
03:27:46 Yep that is possible
03:27:48 although I've got
03:27:50 the recollection that
03:27:51 he didn't or you know
03:27:54 he didn't deliver
03:27:55 that mobile phone
03:27:57 to the fire brigade
03:27:58 until after that 710 meeting.
03:28:00 Do you know how
03:28:01 you were made aware
03:28:02 that Robert Black
03:28:03 had a copy of the plans
03:28:04 of one floor on his phone?
03:28:06 You know again
03:28:07 I think it must have
03:28:08 just been in conversation
03:28:10 when I was liaising
03:28:12 with the TMO team
03:28:15 and somehow I must have
03:28:17 obviously must have been aware
03:28:18 made aware of that.
03:28:20 So is it possible
03:28:21 that you had discussed
03:28:22 building plans with the TMO
03:28:25 prior to that silver TCM
03:28:28 which started at 0730?
03:28:30 Yeah that is possible yes.
03:28:35 Following this silver TCM
03:28:38 did you action the request
03:28:41 to get plans
03:28:42 which the incident commander
03:28:44 had underlined?
03:28:45 Yes I did.
03:28:47 Yes as far as I recall
03:28:49 I passed that request back
03:28:51 so I think later on
03:28:53 I wasn't sure at that stage
03:28:55 whether the
03:28:56 Borough Emergency Control Centre
03:28:57 the BEC had actually
03:28:58 been set up
03:28:59 and I think I have got a time
03:29:01 later on in my statement
03:29:02 when I became aware
03:29:04 that that had been set up.
03:29:06 So I was aware that the TMO
03:29:09 especially Theresa Brown
03:29:11 were on the scene
03:29:13 and it made far more sense
03:29:15 if you like to
03:29:17 speak with them
03:29:18 as it was far more likely
03:29:20 that they would have access
03:29:21 to plans of the tower
03:29:23 than maybe somebody might have
03:29:24 back at the town hall.
03:29:26 Now you say at paragraph 11.3
03:29:28 I recall him
03:29:30 speaking to the fire officer
03:29:31 at silver command
03:29:32 and I believe he forwarded
03:29:33 the plan to the requested
03:29:34 fire email address
03:29:35 although I never saw
03:29:36 a hard copy of the plans.
03:29:38 Do you remember
03:29:39 whether that discussion
03:29:41 you recall between him
03:29:44 and the fire officer
03:29:45 happened before
03:29:46 or after this meeting
03:29:47 the silver meeting?
03:29:49 I've still got the recollection
03:29:52 that that happened
03:29:53 after the silver meeting.
03:29:55 Did you know
03:29:56 that Robert Black
03:29:57 had sent plans
03:29:59 to the Dangerous Structure
03:30:01 Engineer at 6.15
03:30:03 or about 6.15?
03:30:06 No I didn't.
03:30:07 Right.
03:30:08 Did anybody from the TMO
03:30:10 including Mr Black
03:30:11 tell you that?
03:30:13 Not that I recall, no.
03:30:15 You say you recall him
03:30:25 speaking to the fire officer
03:30:26 and you believe
03:30:27 he forwarded the plan.
03:30:28 Do you know why
03:30:30 you were not used
03:30:31 as the conduit
03:30:32 between the TMO
03:30:33 and the London Fire Brigade
03:30:34 for the forwarding
03:30:35 of those plans
03:30:36 as the lay low?
03:30:38 No, I mean all I can recall
03:30:40 is the fact that
03:30:42 there was discussion
03:30:44 between Mr Black
03:30:46 and the fire control truck
03:30:48 after the 7.10 meeting.
03:30:50 Right.
03:30:52 Did you ever see
03:30:53 any plans of Grenfell Tower
03:30:55 on the night?
03:30:57 I believe at some stage
03:30:59 they did appear
03:31:00 in the silver command vehicle.
03:31:03 Do you remember when?
03:31:05 I don't.
03:31:07 Can I ask you
03:31:08 to look at something?
03:31:10 It's LFB quadruple zero
03:31:13 1968.
03:31:19 I'd like you to go
03:31:20 or be taken please
03:31:21 to page 49.
03:31:29 Do you recognise that
03:31:31 as a plan sent to the LFB
03:31:33 at any stage?
03:31:35 Only because I've seen that
03:31:36 on footage which has already
03:31:39 been shown to this inquiry.
03:31:41 But not from the night?
03:31:42 Not all the time.
03:31:43 Page 51 please.
03:31:50 Same question again.
03:31:52 Do you recognise that
03:31:53 as a plan sent to the LFB?
03:31:57 Yes, again same answer really.
03:32:00 I realise from the footage
03:32:03 that has been shown
03:32:04 at some stage
03:32:05 it was in the silver
03:32:07 command truck
03:32:08 and I must have been
03:32:09 in the silver command
03:32:10 truck after it had been
03:32:12 displayed within there
03:32:13 but I must in all honesty
03:32:15 I can't recall
03:32:16 seeing it displayed.
03:32:18 It wasn't brought
03:32:19 to my attention shall we say.
03:32:21 Let's have a look
03:32:22 and see what was displayed.
03:32:23 We have a photograph for you
03:32:24 which is MET triple zero
03:32:26 18729.
03:32:35 We can see that this is
03:32:36 well I should tell you
03:32:37 what this is.
03:32:38 This is a photograph
03:32:39 taken from within CU8
03:32:41 the command unit you were at
03:32:44 and there is a whiteboard
03:32:45 and to the right of the whiteboard
03:32:46 we can see pinned up
03:32:47 or clipped up to it
03:32:48 is a list of plans
03:32:51 or set of plans
03:32:52 showing four floors
03:32:53 of the tower.
03:32:54 Is that what you recall
03:32:55 seeing in the command unit?
03:32:57 As I say I can't in all honesty
03:32:59 recall seeing it.
03:33:00 I know it must have been there
03:33:02 but because all the meetings
03:33:05 I went to you were trying
03:33:06 to cram an awful lot of people
03:33:08 into a very small space.
03:33:11 Unless the fire commander
03:33:12 was actually pointing
03:33:13 to the whiteboard
03:33:14 then I probably wasn't aware
03:33:16 of it.
03:33:20 Did you know that by
03:33:23 and there is a reason
03:33:24 for me asking you this
03:33:25 but did you know that by 7.30
03:33:27 the dangerous structures
03:33:30 engineer John Allen
03:33:31 had returned to Kensington
03:33:32 Town Hall to look
03:33:33 for a copy of the plans?
03:33:35 I wasn't aware of that
03:33:36 at that stage.
03:33:37 Do you know from your experience
03:33:39 where these plans
03:33:40 might be kept
03:33:41 and how easy they were
03:33:42 to access?
03:33:43 No, obviously it would be
03:33:44 very unlikely
03:33:45 that there would be
03:33:46 a member of the housing staff
03:33:47 in the town hall
03:33:48 at that time
03:33:49 unless they had been
03:33:50 specifically called in
03:33:51 by the BEC or any other agency
03:33:54 or the surveyor.
03:33:56 So in my mind
03:33:58 it was always more likely
03:34:00 that copies of the plans
03:34:02 would be found
03:34:03 with the TNO
03:34:04 rather than with the council.
03:34:10 Do you remember
03:34:13 plans being brought back
03:34:15 to the incident ground?
03:34:17 I don't, not physically, no.
03:34:20 Were you aware
03:34:21 of something called
03:34:22 a premises information box
03:34:23 at Grenfell Tower?
03:34:24 I've only been aware
03:34:25 of that since the inquiries
03:34:26 have been in progress
03:34:27 but I wasn't aware of it before.
03:34:29 Was there one?
03:34:30 Not as far as I know.
03:34:32 I mean I'd only
03:34:33 personally I'd only
03:34:34 visited Grenfell Tower
03:34:35 once before
03:34:36 and that was to attend
03:34:37 a meeting in one of the
03:34:38 meeting rooms
03:34:39 on the ground floor
03:34:40 so that was my only
03:34:41 actual physical experience
03:34:43 of the tower before
03:34:44 the date of the fire.
03:34:45 Right. Did you know
03:34:46 prior to the silver meeting
03:34:47 at 7.13 that there was
03:34:49 no premises information box
03:34:50 at Grenfell Tower?
03:34:51 No, I can't recall
03:34:53 that being specifically
03:34:54 mentioned at that stage.
03:34:56 Did it occur to you
03:34:57 to say well there should be
03:34:58 a premises information box here
03:35:00 surely the plans are in it?
03:35:03 Looking back on it
03:35:04 in hindsight logically
03:35:06 it would be good
03:35:07 if there had been
03:35:08 premises immediately
03:35:09 or plans immediately
03:35:10 available but from my own
03:35:12 knowledge I didn't know
03:35:13 that that was the case
03:35:15 or I did not know either.
03:35:18 Now slightly different topic
03:35:21 short topic list of residents
03:35:24 and we've seen your log
03:35:27 referring to the request
03:35:28 for the electoral roll
03:35:35 and in your witness statement
03:35:36 of paragraph 11.2
03:35:40 you say, this is page 6
03:35:42 in the last sentence
03:35:45 I requested them
03:35:46 halfway through the last
03:35:47 sentence I requested them
03:35:48 to obtain and provide
03:35:50 a copy of the electoral roll
03:35:54 for Grenfell Tower
03:35:55 the them there is
03:35:56 I think is the BEC
03:35:57 is that right?
03:35:58 Correct, yes.
03:36:02 Was one supplied?
03:36:05 That I don't know.
03:36:08 Now we saw earlier
03:36:09 that you had made a note
03:36:11 at the 7.13 meeting
03:36:13 against
03:36:23 well let's have a look at it
03:36:24 perhaps rather than guessing
03:36:25 if you go to RBK0002838
03:36:28 and turn back to page 5
03:36:30 use this way to do this
03:36:32 you can see that in your note
03:36:34 of that meeting
03:36:38 it's on page
03:36:42 it's on page 5 at the bottom
03:36:45 you can see that
03:36:46 we looked at this before
03:36:47 there was a tick
03:36:48 next to floor plans
03:36:51 but you put a question mark
03:36:52 next to electoral roll
03:36:56 what does the absence
03:36:57 of the tick against
03:36:58 electoral roll tell us
03:36:59 if anything?
03:37:02 I mean I suppose
03:37:03 at that stage
03:37:04 I still don't know
03:37:05 whether the electoral roll
03:37:06 these days is an electronic
03:37:08 document rather than
03:37:09 a hard copy
03:37:11 I rather suspect it is
03:37:14 all I can say is
03:37:16 I was probably questioning
03:37:17 myself as to whether
03:37:19 that electoral roll
03:37:20 was accessible
03:37:23 but I put the request
03:37:25 into the BEC
03:37:26 and what happened
03:37:27 from then I don't know
03:37:30 Now looking at the roll-off
03:37:33 of the meeting
03:37:34 of the tactical coordination
03:37:36 group at 045
03:37:38 you'll find this
03:37:39 at MET000
03:37:41 sorry, Quadruple 05404
03:37:44 page 8
03:37:55 at 845 a quarter
03:37:57 of the way down the page
03:37:59 just have that highlighted
03:38:00 for you on the screen
03:38:01 TCM
03:38:03 you can see
03:38:04 that you're in attendance
03:38:05 there Rumble Lalo
03:38:08 and then you look
03:38:10 some way down the page
03:38:11 two thirds of the way
03:38:12 down the page
03:38:14 you can just scroll down
03:38:15 it says there
03:38:17 local authority
03:38:19 numbers trying to
03:38:20 rationalise rest centres
03:38:21 list asked for
03:38:23 at last silver
03:38:25 is being given
03:38:26 to FSG sector
03:38:29 do you remember
03:38:30 what that was about?
03:38:33 No, I mean I wouldn't
03:38:34 know what FSG sector
03:38:36 actually stood for
03:38:38 because that may well be
03:38:39 a fabricate term
03:38:43 what I obviously did do
03:38:44 at each of those meetings
03:38:45 was to try and get
03:38:47 as comprehensive a list
03:38:48 as I could
03:38:49 of the rest centres
03:38:50 that were operating
03:38:51 and that was a constantly
03:38:53 changing situation
03:38:55 because the community
03:38:57 were acted magnificently
03:38:59 on the night
03:39:00 and premises were
03:39:02 opening up to accommodate
03:39:03 people within
03:39:06 probably a sort of
03:39:07 half mile to actually
03:39:08 a mile radius
03:39:09 from the tower
03:39:10 so it was a little bit
03:39:11 difficult to try and keep
03:39:13 up to date
03:39:14 with where people
03:39:17 were actually being taken
03:39:18 to it was a constantly
03:39:19 changing situation
03:39:24 and one more question
03:39:31 the list that's referred
03:39:32 to here in this note
03:39:33 does that trigger
03:39:34 any recollection
03:39:35 about whether there was
03:39:36 a discussion
03:39:37 about the list of residents
03:39:38 that had been asked for
03:39:39 at last being supplied?
03:39:47 Yes, it could well be
03:39:48 I mean I know later on
03:39:49 in my statement
03:39:50 I do refer to
03:39:52 when I actually got hold
03:39:53 of that the list
03:39:56 from the TNO
03:39:58 Yes, now Mr Chairman
03:39:59 I've just noted the time
03:40:00 I've got about
03:40:01 five minutes of questions
03:40:02 left and no more than that
03:40:04 I'm in your hands
03:40:05 as to whether we break
03:40:06 to finish the witness
03:40:07 subject to any further
03:40:08 questions
03:40:09 Right, well I imagine
03:40:10 Mr Rumbol you'd like
03:40:11 to finish before
03:40:12 we break for lunch
03:40:13 That would be very nice
03:40:14 Even if we have to run
03:40:15 on a little bit
03:40:16 Indeed, yes
03:40:17 Let's see if you can do it
03:40:18 Thank you very much
03:40:19 You've said in your last answer
03:40:25 that you do refer
03:40:30 to when you got hold
03:40:31 of the list
03:40:32 in your statement
03:40:33 If I can ask you
03:40:34 just to look at that
03:40:35 I think it's paragraph 13.2
03:40:38 in your second statement
03:40:40 which you'll find
03:40:41 on page seven
03:40:43 you say there
03:40:44 if you could just have
03:40:45 that highlighted on the screen
03:40:47 paragraph 13.2
03:40:50 a little later
03:40:51 but before 11 o'clock hours
03:40:54 I was handed a list
03:40:55 of all the tenants
03:40:56 of Grenfell Tower
03:40:57 by Theresa Brown
03:40:58 I remember that
03:40:58 this was a computer
03:40:59 spreadsheet print out
03:41:00 on A3 sized paper
03:41:01 and it contained a list
03:41:02 of the residents names
03:41:04 It was given to me
03:41:05 at the silver truck
03:41:06 and I informed
03:41:07 silver control
03:41:08 that I had the list
03:41:12 Can I ask you
03:41:13 please to be shown
03:41:14 RBK00014629
03:41:28 Is that the document
03:41:32 you're referring to
03:41:33 the spreadsheet
03:41:34 that you're referring to
03:41:35 It is and the
03:41:36 post-it note was my notes
03:41:38 with my scribbled signature
03:41:40 on the bottom
03:41:41 confirming that
03:41:43 Ah, that's you
03:41:44 It is, yes
03:41:52 Now that
03:41:53 looking at it
03:41:54 simply shows
03:41:55 the number
03:41:56 of residents
03:41:57 the number of people
03:42:01 registered to each flat
03:42:03 doesn't it
03:42:04 It doesn't show you
03:42:05 the names
03:42:06 and any details
03:42:07 of the residents
03:42:09 Was that what
03:42:10 you were expecting
03:42:12 At that stage
03:42:13 I have got the recollection
03:42:14 that there was another
03:42:16 document probably
03:42:17 A4 in size
03:42:19 which I believe
03:42:20 did contain
03:42:22 some names
03:42:23 and I believe
03:42:24 both documents
03:42:25 were given to me
03:42:26 at the same time
03:42:29 Can I ask you
03:42:30 in the light of that answer then
03:42:32 to be shown
03:42:33 LFB
03:42:36 0002434
03:42:38 sorry 24371
03:42:51 That's LFB
03:42:52 00024371
03:42:55 Is that the document
03:43:08 you were referring to
03:43:09 in your last answer
03:43:10 the A4 document
03:43:11 I believe so
03:43:12 Do you remember when
03:43:13 you received that
03:43:15 To the best of my recollection
03:43:16 I got both documents
03:43:17 at the same time
03:43:19 There's another document
03:43:20 as well
03:43:21 I'm sorry to
03:43:22 bombard you with them
03:43:24 LFB 00024372
03:43:29 I'll just look at
03:43:30 the first page of that
03:43:39 Again
03:43:40 it's another list
03:43:41 with similar information on it
03:43:43 Do you recall seeing that
03:43:45 I believe so
03:43:46 but obviously
03:43:47 I only had
03:43:48 if you like physical
03:43:49 control of these documents
03:43:51 for a very short
03:43:52 number of minutes
03:43:53 because once the
03:43:54 silver control
03:43:55 were aware
03:43:56 that they were available
03:43:57 they wanted them
03:43:58 transferred to
03:43:59 the bronze vehicle
03:44:00 which I believe
03:44:01 was in Grenfell Road itself
03:44:02 Now you refer to
03:44:03 a bronze vehicle
03:44:04 just now
03:44:05 and indeed
03:44:06 in your witness statement
03:44:07 of paragraph 11.3
03:44:09 What was the bronze vehicle
03:44:11 you were referring to
03:44:12 Well it was another
03:44:13 London Fire Brigade
03:44:14 control vehicle
03:44:15 which was
03:44:17 I say I believe
03:44:18 it was located
03:44:19 in Grenfell Road
03:44:20 so it was far closer
03:44:21 to the bronze vehicle
03:44:22 so it was far closer
03:44:23 to the tower
03:44:24 than the one in
03:44:25 Bomer Road
03:44:26 Had that been there
03:44:27 throughout your involvement
03:44:28 Yes
03:44:29 it had been
03:44:30 Do you know whether
03:44:31 you heard anybody
03:44:32 describe that
03:44:33 as the FSG Command Unit
03:44:34 It could well have been
03:44:35 I mean I was sort of
03:44:36 trying to stick to
03:44:37 the gold silver
03:44:38 bronze designation
03:44:39 Right
03:44:40 So I sort of
03:44:41 knew it
03:44:42 as the bronze vehicle
03:44:43 Who told you
03:44:44 that it was the bronze vehicle
03:44:45 I suppose
03:44:47 the fire service
03:44:49 told me where it was
03:44:50 and then
03:44:51 I went and found it
03:44:53 Now you say also
03:44:54 your statement
03:44:55 second statement
03:44:56 of paragraph 11.3
03:45:04 I'm so sorry
03:45:05 paragraph 13.2
03:45:11 13.2 on page 7
03:45:14 You say there
03:45:16 that in the second
03:45:19 part of that paragraph
03:45:20 I was asked to take it
03:45:21 to the bronze vehicle
03:45:22 which I did
03:45:23 and I asked
03:45:24 Theresa
03:45:25 if she could email it
03:45:26 to the designated
03:45:27 LFB email address
03:45:29 Did you give her
03:45:30 that address
03:45:31 or did you just say
03:45:32 send it to
03:45:33 the designated
03:45:34 LFB address
03:45:35 No as far as I recall
03:45:36 I did give her
03:45:37 the actual address
03:45:38 and I think
03:45:39 that was the
03:45:40 address
03:45:41 that I was asking
03:45:42 to send to
03:45:43 the email address
03:45:44 and I think
03:45:45 the actual email address
03:45:46 may well have been
03:45:47 on my notes
03:45:48 at the time
03:45:49 my log
03:45:51 I can't recall
03:45:52 for certain
03:45:53 but
03:46:00 And to the best
03:46:01 of your knowledge
03:46:02 did Theresa Brown
03:46:03 send that information
03:46:05 to the email address
03:46:06 you gave
03:46:07 As far as I'm aware
03:46:08 she did
03:46:13 And roughly
03:46:14 what time was this
03:46:15 do you think
03:46:20 I would have said
03:46:21 it was all
03:46:24 within
03:46:27 so I'm just trying to think
03:46:31 so it was probably
03:46:32 just before
03:46:33 the 11 o'clock
03:46:34 silver command meeting
03:46:35 Right
03:46:43 So does that mean
03:46:44 that the LFB
03:46:45 had no tenant list
03:46:46 or even a list
03:46:47 of numbers
03:46:48 per flat
03:46:49 before 11
03:46:50 o'clock
03:46:51 or so
03:46:52 Not as far as I'm aware
03:46:53 Thank you
03:46:54 Mr Rumble
03:46:56 thank you very much
03:46:57 for your assistance
03:46:58 you'll be glad to know
03:46:59 that I've come to the end
03:47:00 of my questions
03:47:01 the normal routine
03:47:02 is that I then
03:47:03 pause
03:47:04 for a few minutes
03:47:05 just to check
03:47:06 whether I've got
03:47:07 any questions
03:47:08 and normally
03:47:09 the chairman rises
03:47:10 Mr Chairman
03:47:11 I mean your
03:47:12 hands as to what we do
03:47:13 I think that's the best course
03:47:14 Yes
03:47:15 I feel people are sometimes
03:47:16 rather inhibited
03:47:17 if the witness and I
03:47:18 are sitting here
03:47:19 overhearing your
03:47:20 conversations
03:47:21 So Mr Rumble
03:47:22 Mr Minnett needs
03:47:23 a couple of minutes
03:47:24 to check that
03:47:25 he's asked all the questions
03:47:26 Indeed
03:47:27 I'll rise for
03:47:28 just under five minutes
03:47:30 we'll get back in here
03:47:31 before 1.15
03:47:33 to mop up
03:47:34 anything that's left over
03:47:36 All right
03:47:37 Okay
03:47:38 So please don't talk
03:47:39 to anyone about your
03:47:40 evidence while you're
03:47:41 in the room
03:47:42 and the usher will now
03:47:43 take you to a quiet place
03:47:45 Thank you
03:47:46 All right
03:47:47 Thank you
03:48:01 Mr Minnett I'm getting
03:48:02 to say 1.15
03:48:03 or sooner if possible
03:48:04 We'll bring you back
03:48:06 Mr Chairman
03:48:07 as soon as we can
03:48:08 Thank you
03:48:12 Thank you
03:48:42 Thank you
03:49:12 Thank you
03:49:42 Thank you
03:50:12 Thank you
03:50:42 Thank you
03:51:12 Thank you
03:51:42 Thank you
03:52:12 Thank you
03:52:42 Thank you
03:53:12 Thank you
03:53:42 Thank you
03:54:12 Thank you
03:54:42 Thank you
03:55:12 Thank you
03:55:42 Thank you
03:56:12 Thank you
03:56:42 So we can have a shorter
03:56:45 motion
03:57:10 Yes Mr Minnett
03:57:11 Well after all that
03:57:13 Well I know
03:57:14 there's a queue
03:57:15 I'm afraid
03:57:16 and I've also satisfied
03:57:17 myself that my own notes
03:57:18 also have further questions
03:57:19 I want to call
03:57:20 One or two
03:57:21 Won't take very long
03:57:22 Mr Chairman
03:57:23 So if we could please
03:57:24 have the witness back
03:57:25 Yes very well
03:57:41 Well the
03:57:43 it's taken
03:57:44 rather longer than
03:57:45 I'd hoped
03:57:46 it's slightly ominous
03:57:47 but we'll see
03:57:48 anyway there are
03:57:49 a few more questions
03:57:50 Yes Mr Minnett
03:57:51 We won't take very long
03:57:52 First of all
03:57:53 Mr Rumble
03:57:54 can I ask you
03:57:55 to look at paragraph 13.3
03:57:57 of your statement
03:57:59 at the foot of page 7
03:58:03 You say that
03:58:04 during this meeting
03:58:06 as the
03:58:07 silver meeting
03:58:09 later in the morning
03:58:11 on the 14th of June
03:58:12 you were asked to obtain
03:58:13 an asbestos register
03:58:15 for the building
03:58:17 Who asked you
03:58:19 to obtain that
03:58:22 As far as I recall
03:58:23 it obviously came out
03:58:24 of that silver meeting
03:58:25 and I would anticipate
03:58:27 it would have been
03:58:28 somebody from
03:58:29 the London Fire Brigade
03:58:30 but I cannot call whom
03:58:33 Did you know
03:58:34 why you were being asked
03:58:35 Not specifically
03:58:36 but obviously
03:58:38 they were
03:58:39 trying to find
03:58:40 as many documents
03:58:41 to do with the premises
03:58:42 that would assist
03:58:43 their operation
03:58:44 as possible
03:58:45 so this may well
03:58:46 have been a logical
03:58:47 request
03:58:48 Do you know
03:58:49 even today
03:58:50 whether it was provided
03:58:51 I don't
03:58:52 Can I ask you then
03:58:54 to look at
03:58:55 the Lambeth pack
03:58:56 that you were using
03:58:57 which is Rbk000
03:58:59 29039
03:59:01 and I'm wondering
03:59:02 what the
03:59:03 Rbk000 29039
03:59:10 Now we looked
03:59:11 intently at your own notes
03:59:13 within the document
03:59:14 but if you go
03:59:15 to the formal
03:59:16 or formatted
03:59:17 parts of the document
03:59:18 page 6
03:59:22 you can see
03:59:23 we looked at page 5
03:59:24 where there was methane
03:59:25 I should have
03:59:26 taken you to page 6
03:59:27 immediate problems
03:59:28 to consider
03:59:29 at the top of the page
03:59:31 Second item down
03:59:32 immediate problems
03:59:33 to consider
03:59:34 dangerous structures
03:59:35 officers
03:59:36 to assess
03:59:37 dangerous buildings
03:59:38 stroke civil engineering
03:59:39 structures
03:59:44 First question
03:59:45 would your
03:59:49 use of this document
03:59:50 or your training
03:59:51 or your experience
03:59:52 have caused you
03:59:53 immediately to consider
03:59:55 the need for
03:59:56 a dangerous structure
03:59:57 officer
04:00:00 I believe it would
04:00:01 have done
04:00:02 yes
04:00:03 as I say
04:00:04 I cannot recall
04:00:05 I know obviously
04:00:06 at some stage
04:00:07 I met John Allen
04:00:08 the district surveyor
04:00:10 who was performing
04:00:11 that function
04:00:13 I was also
04:00:14 relying on
04:00:16 what was happening
04:00:17 back at the town hall
04:00:18 when the BEC
04:00:19 had been set up
04:00:20 so they too
04:00:21 would have had
04:00:22 a checklist
04:00:23 if you like
04:00:24 to go through
04:00:25 which that
04:00:26 no doubt would also
04:00:27 have been on
04:00:28 but at the minute
04:00:29 I just cannot recall
04:00:30 whether I
04:00:31 specifically
04:00:32 asked for one
04:00:33 at that stage
04:00:34 At the time of your
04:00:35 arrival
04:00:36 did you think
04:00:37 or realise
04:00:38 that a dangerous
04:00:39 structures officer
04:00:40 or dangerous structures engineer
04:00:41 would need to see
04:00:42 the building straight away
04:00:43 to assess
04:00:44 whether or not
04:00:45 it was in danger of collapse
04:00:47 It was obviously apparent
04:00:48 that
04:00:49 the building
04:00:50 was very much
04:00:51 on fire
04:00:54 I don't have
04:00:55 any sort of
04:00:56 knowledge of
04:00:57 engineering structures
04:00:59 I was aware
04:01:00 however though
04:01:01 it was
04:01:02 mainly
04:01:03 a concrete
04:01:04 building
04:01:05 It's not as if
04:01:06 it was like
04:01:07 a wood building
04:01:08 but nevertheless
04:01:09 because the fire
04:01:10 was behaving
04:01:11 very unpredictably
04:01:14 there was obviously
04:01:15 that danger
04:01:16 and obviously
04:01:17 debris was falling
04:01:18 At the time
04:01:19 the debris appeared
04:01:20 to be
04:01:21 I hesitate to say
04:01:22 light debris
04:01:23 but it wasn't
04:01:24 sort of heavy pieces
04:01:25 of concrete
04:01:26 or metal
04:01:27 or wood
04:01:28 It was
04:01:29 burnt objects
04:01:30 if you like
04:01:31 so
04:01:32 obviously the
04:01:33 clouding
04:01:34 will come very much
04:01:35 into this
04:01:36 but
04:01:37 there was no
04:01:38 as far as I'm aware
04:01:39 there wasn't
04:01:40 it wasn't apparent
04:01:41 that there were
04:01:42 large lumps of concrete
04:01:43 or anything falling
04:01:44 off the building
04:01:45 at that stage
04:01:46 So it didn't occur to you
04:01:47 in the light
04:01:48 of this thing
04:01:49 on your checklist
04:01:50 that you needed
04:01:51 to get a dangerous
04:01:52 structures engineer
04:01:53 there straight away
04:01:54 Yes
04:01:55 obviously that went
04:01:56 on the checklist
04:01:57 but as I say
04:01:58 I cannot recall
04:01:59 which
04:02:00 that engineer
04:02:01 was called
04:02:02 or by whom
04:02:03 Right
04:02:04 Following the two
04:02:05 silver meetings
04:02:06 you were present at
04:02:07 did you do anything
04:02:09 to follow up
04:02:10 what remained outstanding
04:02:12 that you had asked for
04:02:13 at those meetings
04:02:17 I think I went through
04:02:18 my log
04:02:19 and
04:02:20 if there was anything
04:02:21 that was deficient
04:02:22 in that
04:02:23 I either made a second
04:02:24 request to the BEC
04:02:25 or tried to follow it up
04:02:26 in some other way
04:02:27 Right
04:02:28 How satisfied were you
04:02:29 having done that
04:02:30 that people understood
04:02:31 what it was
04:02:32 that you wanted
04:02:35 I mean the one request
04:02:36 that I have put
04:02:37 in my statement
04:02:38 that I'm not sure
04:02:39 was when the fire brigade
04:02:40 requested a minivan
04:02:41 and I think that was
04:02:42 for the purpose
04:02:43 of transporting
04:02:44 firefighters away
04:02:45 from the scene
04:02:46 for refreshments
04:02:47 and back again
04:02:48 Now as far as I'm aware
04:02:50 that request
04:02:51 was never actionable
04:02:52 so that was something
04:02:54 that happened
04:02:58 should have been followed up
04:02:59 but I don't know
04:03:01 whether it was
04:03:02 The other fact
04:03:04 I suppose
04:03:05 I need to highlight
04:03:06 is that
04:03:07 at the stage
04:03:08 I was talking to the BEC
04:03:09 I was also not aware
04:03:11 of how many people
04:03:12 might have been
04:03:13 in that BEC
04:03:14 how many people
04:03:15 were actually
04:03:16 at the town hall
04:03:19 able to respond
04:03:20 to these requests
04:03:21 Right
04:03:23 Final question
04:03:25 Did you know
04:03:26 in your rollers
04:03:27 lay low
04:03:28 or indeed otherwise
04:03:30 whether the TMO
04:03:31 had a contingency plan
04:03:32 for a full or partial
04:03:33 evacuation of this building
04:03:36 I was never made aware
04:03:37 of that
04:03:41 Mr Rumble thank you very much
04:03:42 those are my
04:03:43 further questions I have for you
04:03:44 I have no other questions
04:03:46 it just remains
04:03:47 for me to thank you
04:03:48 very much for coming today
04:03:49 and giving your evidence
04:03:50 to the enquiry
04:03:51 and assisting us
04:03:52 with our investigations
04:03:53 we're extremely grateful
04:03:54 Thank you
04:03:55 Thank you sir
04:03:56 I just would like to add sir
04:03:58 is I would like to add
04:04:00 my sympathy
04:04:01 and ongoing
04:04:02 thoughts to the survivors
04:04:03 and relatives
04:04:04 of those that have died
04:04:05 and
04:04:10 it obviously will remain
04:04:11 in my memory
04:04:12 for a long time to come
04:04:13 I'm sure it will
04:04:14 Thanks sir
04:04:15 and we are very grateful
04:04:16 to you for coming
04:04:17 to give your evidence
04:04:19 it's all part of
04:04:20 a big jigsaw puzzle
04:04:21 which we want to build up
04:04:23 so to hear how it was
04:04:25 and to see how it's going
04:04:26 on in your
04:04:28 particular responsibility
04:04:29 and what was done
04:04:30 is always very helpful
04:04:31 as being part of
04:04:32 that overall picture
04:04:34 Thank you very much
04:04:35 I'm sorry we've kept you
04:04:36 for a rather late lunch
04:04:37 No problem
04:04:38 At least you've now finished
04:04:39 and you can leave
04:04:40 Thank you
04:04:41 The Arshad
04:04:42 if you'd like to get the Arshad
04:04:43 she'll look after you
04:04:44 Thank you
04:04:55 Good morning
04:04:56 Well it has been
04:04:57 rather a long morning
04:04:58 but I think it was
04:04:59 a good thing
04:05:00 to enable that witness
04:05:01 to finish his evidence
04:05:02 We'll break now
04:05:03 and resume the half-past two
04:05:04 please