Evidence from RBKC and KCTMO (15 November 2018 Pt 2 of 2)

Full transcript

00:11:45 yes just a minute mr. Chandler before I call the next witness is just something I should say for the record or correct for the record yes which arose out of some questions that the first mr. Layton

00:11:56 some questions that the first mr. Layton this morning about yes whether or not the question of plans had been raised at any TCM and I believe I put it to him on the basis that there was no record of that issue having been raised at the

00:12:08 that issue having been raised at the TCMS and that is that was correct so far as the contemporaneous records of those meetings go it was not correct to the extent that it might have included it or be understood to have included assistant

00:12:20 be understood to have included assistant commissioner and Eros own record which as appendix a to his statement and I should just give a reference to that which is lfb triple zero one eight four

00:12:31 which is lfb triple zero one eight four eight at page four we're at the 3:20 meeting his recollection admittedly after the event soon after the event of that meeting is that he did ask for plans yes now will obviously be a matter

00:12:43 plans yes now will obviously be a matter for you to weigh in due course well thank you for clarifying that I think it's important yes now mr. Chairman I now call mr. Robert black Lovett black of the TMO thank you

00:13:16 that's where I want to go that the evidence of shaking but there is some evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth thank you very much mr.

00:13:30 the whole truth thank you very much mr. Blackman you like to sit down make yourself comfortable yes good afternoon mr. blank can i start by asking you please to give your full name to the chairman my name is robert millikan

00:13:41 chairman my name is robert millikan black and can i begin by thanking you very much for attending today to help us with our investigations we very much appreciate it I'm going to focus with

00:13:52 appreciate it I'm going to focus with you today on the events on the night of the fire

00:13:56 the fire there are of course other areas which we will be wishing to investigate with you in due course but not today my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they're not they don't work

00:14:07 sometimes they're not they don't work out that way so if you don't understand the question or you want me to repeat it or put it in a different way and I'm very happy to do that and I should just also say sometimes witnesses find

00:14:19 also say sometimes witnesses find recalling the events of the night difficult so if you need a break at any time just let me know now you provided one witness statement to the inquiry and that is TMO one zero

00:14:31 to the inquiry and that is TMO one zero zero four eight nine six one if we can please have that on the screen is that the first page of your statement it is I should just say that we will be looking

00:14:42 should just say that we will be looking at documents as we go through your evidence there are a number of places to see those you can use the screens at the back at the screen on your desk or you're going to work out what's best for my boss yes and if you can turn please

00:14:53 my boss yes and if you can turn please to the third page of that statement you'll see a statement of truth over a signature and the date of the 22nd of August 2018 is that your signature it is yes and have you read this witness statement recently yes can you confirm

00:15:05 statement recently yes can you confirm that its contents are true yes now can I begin by asking you some questions about your career in your position it's right

00:15:16 your career in your position it's right isn't it that in June 2017 you were the chief executive of the Kensington and Chelsea tenant management organization yes and you held that role between 2009

00:15:28 yes and you held that role between 2009 and December 2017 yes and was that a full-time role yes can you describe your career path before

00:15:39 can you describe your career path before 2009 yes I started working in Houston in 1991 with a company called English churches housing groups in a program

00:15:50 churches housing groups in a program called the rough sleepers initiative which was started by the Conservative government so my first job was a sort of housing officer in a hostel in Pentonville Road which had been opened

00:16:02 Pentonville Road which had been opened up for 24 people rough sleepers I was a sort of off officer for a year and then within a year became the project manager of that skin and we provided support and

00:16:13 of that skin and we provided support and care to people right off the streets I then became a manager of hosts of another rough sleepers hostel in Kensington Chelsea for 90 rough slickers

00:16:24 Kensington Chelsea for 90 rough slickers which was a sort of move on from the street and I kept that position for a year and then I got a role as regional heissen manager with the same company that company was called English church

00:16:35 that company was called English church is hosting group managing all the Hosting's in temporary hostels in London I then I became business manager of all

00:16:46 I then I became business manager of all the hostels in London when they restructured north and south and then I became assistant director of the North

00:16:58 became assistant director of the North Region which covered support care sheltered housing in general needs and during that time I also became the regional assistant director for the

00:17:10 regional assistant director for the south as well so in sense I managed the whole North and South Region across all their hope all the services we provided I I then left that to get a job with a

00:17:21 I I then left that to get a job with a company called circle 33 where I was director of support and care for a company called epic trusts which was a specialist support and care company providing the range of support from

00:17:33 providing the range of support from again hostel up to high care learning disabilities within a year they reached the emerged and with another company called angly and became circle Anglia then I became

00:17:46 and became circle Anglia then I became executive director of customer services across the 45,000 homes covering a place in management support and care asset management on the customer contact

00:17:59 management on the customer contact center I the structure was built into business units so I managed seven managing directors and their director of asset management and I worked there for

00:18:11 asset management and I worked there for five years and then I got the job with the team world cancer charity TMO in that 2009 and I worked there until I left in the

00:18:24 and I worked there until I left in the 31st of December 2017 and what did you all role as CEO of the Kensington or Chelsea TMO involved involved managing

00:18:37 Chelsea TMO involved involved managing the whole organization so we were a Senate mark to an organization and what was unusual it it didn't just cover one estate covered the whole of our be Casey's house non-stop

00:18:49 Casey's house non-stop so it was 10,000 homes and within that you had general need shelter Tyson and some the registered chaos pros I think at that time we provided the full - management service which was doing

00:19:03 management service which was doing supporting tenants once they were allocated by our bkc doing the cleaning of the state's doing repairs in capital investment managing

00:19:14 repairs in capital investment managing swooty Tyson and resident engagement as well as governance because it's unusual because it's a tenant management organization we were owned by our

00:19:25 organization we were owned by our members there's 10,000 homes and everybody's entitled to be a member we roughly become I left about 5,600 and those members were able to vote elections to elect a residents who stood

00:19:38 elections to elect a residents who stood for elections board the board is made up of 15 people eight of them where residents elected on a three-year cycle there was three independents appointed

00:19:49 there was three independents appointed by the board and it was four kings for calling teas which originally were four counselors but when I joined he changed it to two counselors and two independents overall we had five independent so a large part of my job

00:20:01 independent so a large part of my job was managing the membership in terms of governance so it was a huge part because under the table legislation you have the every year hold a ballot of members to

00:20:13 every year hold a ballot of members to ask if you want to continue managing the stock and one of the things when I joined is very few members took part in that ballot and over the seven eight years we increased the membership also

00:20:25 years we increased the membership also the participation of that membership in the will for the annual AGM but also the members election so I think the last time it was were three 33% of the members voted and the the amount of

00:20:38 members voted and the the amount of people who voted for board elections rose from on average people getting about 400 votes to get an 800-foot so so the gauge Minh and governance were very sort of linked in terms of actually to

00:20:50 sort of linked in terms of actually to make sure we could comply with lieutenant monitoring legislation the modular management agreement that Mme which we had with our bkc because our bkc is still the landlord and still it

00:21:01 bkc is still the landlord and still it the landlord of the tenants we just have the rights and manage the services

00:21:07 general answer to a general question a bit more specifically have you ever heard of the or a familiar with the TM o--'s emergency plan yes

00:21:19 o--'s emergency plan yes digital relays CEO involve our seat overseeing the team mo carrying out its emergency plans my role would be as its part of one of our strategies and

00:21:30 part of one of our strategies and policies they oversee it and and make sure it's implemented if required did your role involve liaison with our bkc in respect of any emergency involving

00:21:43 in respect of any emergency involving one of our be KC's properties the emergency plan had within its a diagram they'd be a during the day or our virus that the con site should be made with our bkc

00:21:54 made with our bkc did your role involve itself involved liaison with the council over that plan no but he found was in since I wasn't in terms of the structure of the business

00:22:07 terms of the structure of the business the emergency plan started from a lower level and worked itself up did you ever instigate or oversee any training or any practice on the part of

00:22:20 training or any practice on the part of TMS staff of the functions set out in the emergency plan we did training in terms of eye oh sorry office that they first set but

00:22:31 oh sorry office that they first set but we reviewed the strategy on a regular basis to make sure that it was still valid I and in terms of the people taking part who were on call they were

00:22:43 taking part who were on call they were aware of the rules and responsibilities we had an issue in the past about trying to get people to be on call because a lot of the people who didn't live in the borough and once we worked through that

00:22:56 borough and once we worked through that actually you didn't always have to come is all about giving advice either to pinnacle or the staff on the ground now just following up on your last answer

00:23:09 just following up on your last answer you say you reviewed the strategy on a regular basis can I take you to the emergency plan please which is a TMO one zero zero one three eight nine eight and

00:23:23 turn to page three in that I'll show you page one because it demonstrates what would what we're looking at mr. black TMO one zero zero one three eight nine

00:23:34 TMO one zero zero one three eight nine eight

00:24:04 it's TMO one zero zero one three eight nine eight yes thank you page three just

00:24:21 nine eight yes thank you page three just quickly look back we can't page one first of all say that the witness can see what document this is so this is the

00:24:33 see what document this is so this is the emergency plan so it doesn't tell you what date it has at but if we give them back to page three please we can see that if the version one is August 2004

00:24:44 that if the version one is August 2004 then it was revised three times after that once in May oh nine once in May 15 and once in February 2016 when you said in your last answer that you reviewed it

00:24:55 in your last answer that you reviewed it on a regular basis are you referring to these review dates or single frequent thing for those right okay now I asked you questions about training my question was did you ever instigate or oversee

00:25:08 was did you ever instigate or oversee yourself any training or practice of TMS emergency plan no did you yourself receive any training in how that emergency plan worked we had sessions

00:25:21 emergency plan worked we had sessions with executives where this staff took us through the plan outlined the rules in terms of either an executive level senior management level management level or frontline staff level and the last

00:25:34 or frontline staff level and the last one of those we had was in November of 2016 and did that involve what would happen in the event of a major incident

00:25:46 happen in the event of a major incident yep I'm very clear as the plan is that is about defining what the emergency is so this emergency plan can vary from someone's flat being flooded or

00:25:58 someone's flat being flooded or something like that hey again when we had a small fire idea but it was always clear that actually if it moved beyond that then we would have to go to our bkc

00:26:11 that then we would have to go to our bkc and seek their support and help the strategic Authority and indeed engage with its emergency plan because they had the resources and statutory responsibility did you ever receive any

00:26:24 responsibility did you ever receive any training in something called the London resilience partnership strategic coordination protocol no you know have you ever heard of that I've heard of it as part of flicking

00:26:35 I've heard of it as part of flicking through our VK C's plan I'm aware of there's a escalation within Burroughs up to London and beyond had you heard of it or at all familiar with it on the night of the fire itself or is that it is your

00:26:47 of the fire itself or is that it is your knowledge about this it's probably my knowledge is after I I was more aware of our VK C's its plan or its I tried but our plan same question in respect of the

00:26:59 our plan same question in respect of the l es L P major incident procedure manual where you from as at the night of the fire were you familiar with that document below can I then turn to the

00:27:10 document below can I then turn to the night of the fire you say in your statement that you have difficulty now remembering all details and timings did you yourself keep any contemporaneous

00:27:22 you yourself keep any contemporaneous written record of the events or your actions on the night of the fire no is there a reason why not I know it just wasn't so again when I arrived there I

00:27:36 wasn't so again when I arrived there I don't want to jump too far new questions that the local authority liaison officers were in place and they were keeping notes they were I recognized that was the plan had been put in place and my job was really

00:27:48 and my job was really I'm not included in the London the local authority plan and my job was there to help if I could did you make any note or log of your actions after the events of the fire but

00:28:00 actions after the events of the fire but prior to making your witness statement for no re is there a reason why you didn't do that it was quite chaotic afterwards there was a lot going on and not only were we dealing with the sort

00:28:13 not only were we dealing with the sort of disaster on the ground I was also having to deal with governance and responsibilities with my board so a lot of my time was working with them they were obviously concerned about what happened and we were working with our

00:28:25 happened and we were working with our solicitors to try to understand a situation when you prepared your witness statement mr. black did you look at any documents to refresh your recollection no I didn't have any access to documents

00:28:37 no I didn't have any access to documents because I wrote the the statement I had left the organization I don't have links through my emails or telephone so do we take it from that that when you did your

00:28:48 take it from that that when you did your statement you had no documents in front of you at all and we're working directly from your recollection yeah now you say if I can show you this please at paragraph 3 of your witness statement that you received a call at

00:29:05 statement that you received a call at about 1:30 yeah and you say you were at home you say I received a tip about 1:30 received a telephone call at home from a TMO board member who lived near to Grenville tower to advise me of the fire

00:29:16 Grenville tower to advise me of the fire do you recall who that TMO board member was I do

00:29:21 was I do who was that please Sharan he was one of my elected board members right and I think there's an email of that which

00:29:33 think there's an email of that which records that you were told by Sharon because you sent it and I just show it to you it's it's TM oh one zero zero three six nine five six yeah and you can

00:29:50 three six nine five six yeah and you can see that it bears the date and time at the top of a to 26 45 I'm going to come back to that in a moment but in the text you say dear team we have a major fire

00:30:01 you say dear team we have a major fire at Grenville tower the fire brigade is on site I was told by Sharon our board member yeah I'll be Kacie are aware it cetera and then you say hash is on his

00:30:14 cetera and then you say hash is on his way to the ground and you have spoken to suppose that should be Theresa yeah I am going in Robert and say did you send that email shortly how long

00:30:27 did you send that email shortly how long after receiving the phone call did you send that email what well when I got the phone call I was in bed and I couldn't quite understand what's going on so I got up I went

00:30:38 what's going on so I got up I went downstairs my son was still up and I asked him to look at the news I saw that the horrible sight as you've you've found so many times it's you know it's quite hard to

00:30:51 times it's you know it's quite hard to comprehend so I then fooled and shouting back and said I've seen it you know this is something really gigantic and I will start to talk to my team in our vkc and

00:31:03 start to talk to my team in our vkc and I would try to come in I would come in I'm going to come back to the tiling in a moment before I do can I ask you one or two further questions was the

00:31:15 or two further questions was the notification by sharon part of a formal process of notification was it or was it informal informal is there a formal process there is a formal process there

00:31:26 process there is a formal process there knocks fits in the emergency plan so if there's a fire or an incident if it's out of iris and that's an emergency plan pineco or out of arrows a company so

00:31:38 pineco or out of arrows a company so they after a certain time pinnacle takes on all the calls out of IRAs and they would usually be dealing with any call from a resident about an issue or a prayer an emergency they have authority

00:31:49 prayer an emergency they have authority to agree up to certain live levels with what they can do if it goes beyond that level or if they want to find out a bit more there's two things that you can do one they can contact the the on duty

00:32:03 one they can contact the the on duty estate services other people call them caretakers but someone that lives locally that can get out there and assess it to give them information and then there's an on-call managers and I

00:32:15 then there's an on-call managers and I think Adrian was on called who was part of the health and safety team and hash had also a lot of time to be known calls so and he was one of my senior managers

00:32:26 so and he was one of my senior managers now similarly in paragraph three you say I turned on the TV and used to see how seriousness the fire was too big garbled

00:32:39 seriousness the fire was too big garbled there you then say I telephoned hash sham June teemo's head of housing Support Services who lives local to Grenville tower but what time did you call him I don't I used to say when I

00:32:52 call him I don't I used to say when I wrote this I didn't have my telephone so I don't have any note sir and I haven't been supplied with them so in sense of I think so you're looking by my telephone

00:33:03 think so you're looking by my telephone my board member back and then hash because I know and before I'll use them I contacted him so quite soon afterwards I would say to give him a heads up that

00:33:14 I would say to give him a heads up that something's going on I've just been told and is he available because again he lives very locally compared to most my senior managers who again haven't seen the size of the father actually what I

00:33:25 the size of the father actually what I wanted not only I knew that we'd have a EES her state services passing on the ground that actually to have a senior manager if you'd actually get there Adrian was at home so he could deal with

00:33:38 Adrian was at home so he could deal with that right no I'll just Park the timings of this in a moment in light of what you've just said just ask you one or two other questions first of all was the TMO

00:33:49 other questions first of all was the TMO emergency plan to your knowledge actually ever activated on the night of the fire

00:33:54 the fire no I mean apart from the aspect that I know where that when the fire I started and it's set off the signal that went to Tunstall who in terms of actually then

00:34:07 Tunstall who in terms of actually then followed the plan by reporting that it's the fire brigade and to CSC or pinnacle and they then started it will propagate got there quickly and then the pen

00:34:20 got there quickly and then the pen pinnacle were then trying to work out what is this fire what's it like so I know that started but for my aspect having dealt with some smaller emergencies that there is just no way

00:34:32 emergencies that there is just no way our

00:34:33 our could deal with that even though I had only seen it on TV and therefore and since that's when I said when I spoke to Laura Johnson who's director of wholesome and she was been made aware of

00:34:46 wholesome and she was been made aware of it as well that actually the rvk see emergency plan would come in we won't resource to deal with anything like this can I ask you then to help me with something please could you please be

00:34:57 something please could you please be shown an email at TMO one double zero three one 176 and go to page two in that

00:35:10 three one 176 and go to page two in that which I think you've got now this is the email from Sinead McQuillan it's a second email on the page yeah but 750 and 32 seconds to a number of people

00:35:26 and 32 seconds to a number of people have mercy seed to you you see so intensive Sinead was the company secretary the email was sent to the team all board members said left them summer

00:35:39 all board members said left them summer ready new because they were fawning this was to try to give everybody I had sucked and in the text it says in the first line you will no doubt have heard

00:35:50 first line you will no doubt have heard the distressing news regarding runfeldt our I want to reassure you that the emergency plan has been activated and Robert is on site is it true that the

00:36:01 Robert is on site is it true that the emergency plan has been activated why would says the aspects of the emergency plan where interns are letting the fire brigade the left and pinnacle I was activated when I got there

00:36:13 was activated when I got there remember this came at 7:50 so I take it Sinead came in and wiped off an email she didn't discuss the email with me I think it was a response to try to give

00:36:24 think it was a response to try to give the board some reassurance but by that time the the RB Casey plan and structure in terms of this Lalo's it's a bar a command the back group was in place and

00:36:37 command the back group was in place and the silver group but when she says the emergency plan has been activated I think what you're telling us is actually that's not correct to the extent that it refers to the KCT and it

00:36:49 extent that it refers to the KCT and it shouldn't that it should have referred really to our be Casey's emergency plan has been activated and we're working of them now in terms of the responsibility for making the decision whether or not

00:37:01 for making the decision whether or not to activate the TMO emergency plan does that rest with pinnacle ordered it rests with the relevant TMO duties officer on duty as I say because pinnacle if you

00:37:13 duty as I say because pinnacle if you look at the graph that's in it shows you their job when they're told there's an emergency depend on the size is to let the people on the ground it's trying to make an assessment I think at the time

00:37:24 make an assessment I think at the time we got there is that you know RB Casey's had kicked in

00:37:31 since as far as you can your concern is this right that the art it was always the RB Casey emergency plan running and not the TAS plan yeah we know yes because although we're a

00:37:43 because although we're a reasonable-sized organization with ten thousand homes we we we just don't have that resources of authority to go and set up arrest sensors we have community

00:37:54 set up arrest sensors we have community rooms that they wouldn't have been able to deal with the size of it we don't have the muscle that or the authority to command people to do things so for me we

00:38:05 command people to do things so for me we were always and wanted to be in that plan because in the sense they are the people that I see as you've pointed o-linked into the wider plans if it was

00:38:16 o-linked into the wider plans if it was bigger into the London plan

00:38:22 now given that it was not the TMO emergency plan that was running but the council's emergency plan what did you

00:38:35 council's emergency plan what did you understand the role of the TMO to be in responding to this fire one has no rule because actually the local authority

00:38:46 because actually the local authority liaison officers are the key part they are on the ground and the authority to command resources you've got the Beck Group which is sitting at the tiny hall and then you've got the silver gray so

00:38:57 and then you've got the silver gray so the team Oh isn't part of any of those groups so in terms of for us once that's enacted that the statutory Pyro's the police the fire brigade and the local authority have taken over and sense of

00:39:09 authority have taken over and sense of the area the estate and all the responsibilities in it because you know any elements in a sense I think we're ugly and said you're almost there as a spare clock about trying to help you

00:39:22 spare clock about trying to help you know and I think that's that was this sense of what we I my team wanted to do what could we hunt to this in in terms

00:39:33 what could we hunt to this in in terms of actually this situation because it was quite overwhelming when you you get there you see it and of course it's nothing compared to what bereaved or

00:39:45 nothing compared to what bereaved or survivors face but it was quite an impact on you as an individual now we know that you all other TMAO staff attended the site you and others what

00:39:58 attended the site you and others what did you understand your personal role to be on-site my personal rule really was recognizing I'm not in any of the

00:40:09 recognizing I'm not in any of the meetings any of the strategic that in a sense you're there if you can help in terms of what then we were trying to I then Teresa and others was trying to get

00:40:21 then Teresa and others was trying to get our staff outlets to help you know to try and get them in so that I said they could link in with our bkc at the shelters

00:40:32 shelters certainly their face and stuff and the res engagement stuff because they work on the ground all the time and other people and actually much more useful than me you don't know everybody so we

00:40:44 than me you don't know everybody so we saw it very much as I saw it very much as actually the more we could motivate and mobilize our staff to fit into our be KC's plan and support as it goes

00:40:55 be KC's plan and support as it goes forward we had nothing else to offer at that stage now in your statement of paragraph 5 you describe your access to the tower and you say in the last

00:41:06 the tower and you say in the last sentence in that paragraph I cannot be sure of exact timings but I believe I arrived there at about 2:45 a.m. when

00:41:17 arrived there at about 2:45 a.m. when you did this statement what was that belief based on it was the leaflet trying to talk to my family about when we got the first call how quickly my cap

00:41:28 we got the first call how quickly my cap because I don't drive so that's a full an account and just trying to remember it is it was quite difficult just to remember when you were there no I apologize for now Nick Layton who gave

00:41:43 apologize for now Nick Layton who gave evidence this morning has said in his statement that you arrived at 3:30 to 3:45 and he confirmed that this morning is that right well might that be right I

00:41:54 is that right well might that be right I don't know really I mean in a sense if my timings are wrong I apologize I what we I tried to do is when we were doing this my solicitors tried to actually a little bit of correlation between what

00:42:05 little bit of correlation between what did faster day because he's going for me cuz I don't know why fool and I it's just very hard to sort of tide dinies details alright but when I got there it took quite a while to walk through the

00:42:16 took quite a while to walk through the cab could only get as far as checkers fish Renda bike because the roads were blocked and filled and you had to actually get through to Corbin's to get

00:42:27 actually get through to Corbin's to get to where local authority liaison office as well

00:42:31 as well so when you say I arrived there at about 2:45 where's the there so there would be in my recollection here would be when I

00:42:42 in my recollection here would be when I go to where the c'mon Center walls but Fred lick house I think it was now hash and tune in his statement says at paragraph eight and

00:42:53 statement says at paragraph eight and obviously he'll have to be asked about this because he's yet to come to giver who does but he says that he recalls you arriving at about 3:30 a.m. again okay well I mean I does that right well I

00:43:04 well I mean I does that right well I didn't corporate with fashion a statement if there's a difference in timing then I have to forgive that I in the sense I'm not sure if they're Leila Milty did dine in there hard for like in

00:43:16 Milty did dine in there hard for like in now let me get back to the email which refer to Sharon the moment ago TMO one hundred three six nine five six please which is the one we saw which had the

00:43:30 which is the one we saw which had the reference to Sharon in it and as I noted to you it had a time an apparent time of to twenty six forty five do you remember where were you when you sent this email

00:43:41 where were you when you sent this email I don't remember if brother was in the car go in there or when I was there did you send it from your handheld device or from yeah and that's all I had on the night right now I'd like you to

00:43:53 on the night right now I'd like you to help me with something please could you also be shown and we can have to uh put the two of these on the screen at the same time t mo one zero zero three one one seven six at page 10 that's t mo one

00:44:05 one seven six at page 10 that's t mo one zero zero three one one seven six on page ten

00:44:15 now help me with this mr. black we've seen on the right hand side the email I was just showing you which carries a time marker go to 26:45 on the left hand

00:44:26 time marker go to 26:45 on the left hand side of the screen and you can see there are a number of emails the middle of which is from you to what appears to be the same recipients 14th of June at oh three twenty seven dear team and then

00:44:39 three twenty seven dear team and then the text is exactly the same as far as I can see we're a major fire at Granville tower the fire and the same error is made

00:44:46 made firedog brigade is on site I was told by Sharon or bulk member our bkc are aware enough preparing Red Cross shelters hashes on oz way into the ground and you have spoken to Ursa I'm going in it's

00:44:58 have spoken to Ursa I'm going in it's exactly the same text as you can see can you can you help please explain why the one on the right says O to 26:45 but the one on the Left says a 327 well I'm

00:45:09 one on the Left says a 327 well I'm afraid I can't all mostly there seems though I mean when we were going through this there seems to be a few taxes into our emails that seem to not sink in time once and I don't understand okay now

00:45:24 when you said I am going in did you send this email before you left or what on the way I think you said I think I was saying was on the way right and it says

00:45:35 saying was on the way right and it says I hit hashes on his way to the ground you'd already spoken therefore to mr. sham soon yeah at this point now given what has been said by other witnesses

00:45:47 what has been said by other witnesses including mr. sham shewn about your arrival at about 3:30 are you able to assist as which is that the right time whether it's a three 2202 26:45 or a

00:45:58 whether it's a three 2202 26:45 or a truth so I think that's what I'm saying - when I wrote the same home.we I thought that was about the time if it's later I have to accept that I can't understand why if two emails with

00:46:10 understand why if two emails with different times I you'd need to ask a technical or ICT person why that might happen right I didn't send two emails right

00:46:22 when you I think you said when you rate this statement you haven't seen these emails or is that wrong you said you haven't seen any documents when you wrote this statement or am i

00:46:34 when you wrote this statement or am i misunderstanding or evident why now I don't see number I saw these email was later that again I was warned and I think we sent a timetable of what we thought the world right so you've seen already seen these emails prior to

00:46:45 already seen these emails prior to giving evidence today yes right so when you gave when you confirm that the statement was correct did you know that in fact the timings in it were wrong no no sorry what I'm

00:46:59 it were wrong no no sorry what I'm saying is I think when I go back to the confusion is that I don't have the exact time and it it either be 2:30 or 3:30 and at the time I gave the best time I

00:47:10 and at the time I gave the best time I thought I could if other people are saying it's another time then then maybe there's a mistake there and I call Djoser by cat you'll be on sensing beyond that you're sure you only send

00:47:24 beyond that you're sure you only send one email yes the same thing poor thing well yes and so there's a conundrum as to why we should have these two they're different documents at different times

00:47:36 different documents at different times yeah I know I and I think when we went through some stuff of it earlier there is another one or two emails that seemed to be either sync which again look I can explain will come to those my question

00:47:49 explain will come to those my question was that when you swore to the accuracy of this statement earlier on today mr. black had you seen these emails before giving evidence I might send them I

00:48:01 giving evidence I might send them I hadn't seen two of them with the different times right so again when I swore is based on sound again why I thought was true that the time

00:48:13 thought was true that the time how long was your journey to the tower it takes quite a long way from South London to 45 minutes the email at 3:20

00:48:25 London to 45 minutes the email at 3:20 set of six 2327 that I'm showing you am i showing you this for the very first time rather are you seeing this undeveloped area through thousand so I'll be basing that on the email I saw

00:48:36 I'll be basing that on the email I saw it too now if it's right that you arrived at the incident at about 3:30 or

00:48:49 arrived at the incident at about 3:30 or at any rate after oh three twenty seven

00:48:55 what were you doing well let me backtrack a bit does that tell us about when you were first called about the fire by Sharon could you say that

00:49:07 fire by Sharon could you say that youngster in problems yes also if it's right that you arrived at the incident at about 3:30 or at any at any rate after three 3:27 when we what does that

00:49:21 after three 3:27 when we what does that tell us about the time at which you were actually first called about the fire by Sharon well again as far as I know I get called Cheryl about 1:30 and therefore

00:49:33 called Cheryl about 1:30 and therefore that would mean that two hours had elapsed between being called by Sharon and you sending this email at 3:27 saying I'm going in well that's that not sure interpretation what I'm saying here

00:49:45 sure interpretation what I'm saying here is I think I got there at 2:30 because I got the phone call got dressed from the car that's the best of my knowledge well

00:49:56 car that's the best of my knowledge well you say 2:30 now in your statement you said 2:45 so and that's before you saw the email saying 327 mr. black what I'm trying to get a feel for is what you were doing between getting the phone

00:50:07 were doing between getting the phone call at 1:30 as you say and arrival so suppose what I was doing is the middle of the night I get out I check I'm trying to work out what's going on I

00:50:19 trying to work out what's going on I have to get dressed I have to tell my partner what's happened that I fool in writing some people to actually let them know that if they haven't seen it a lot of people didn't answer the telephone because I'm there

00:50:31 answer the telephone because I'm there to call the cab you have to wait for a cab to come I then get in a cab and then I get to the place and it's so therefore it takes some time it's not gone on the

00:50:42 it takes some time it's not gone on the transcript that I thought I heard you say you phoned Ryden is that right no okay

00:50:55 and you said it took quite some time to get to the incident do you know or can you estimate roughly how long your journey time was Gaius emitted in previous to your question I thought

00:51:06 previous to your question I thought about 45 minutes which means that if you arrived at 3:30 you would have left at

00:51:18 arrived at 3:30 you would have left at about 2:45 or fr life to 150 or I got there it's sorry just let me try so if I

00:51:32 there it's sorry just let me try so if I arrived at 2:45 it man I left about 2 o'clock hmm but you can't help us with the timings between these emails I can't

00:51:43 the timings between these emails I can't help so I think this is so what I'm saying is I got a phone call at 1:30 I think arrived there at 2:45 if it took me about 45 minutes for the card to get

00:51:54 me about 45 minutes for the card to get from South London to that lab taking up a two-floor I would give me half an hour to get dressed for a cab so at the moment that's keeping real estate mean

00:52:05 moment that's keeping real estate mean that's that's high me having a head

00:52:09 right and you know again personally I don't understand I'm not an ICT or technology person and that's maybe something we have to find out now at

00:52:23 something we have to find out now at paragraph 7 of your email of your of your witness statement you say that you made yourself known to the police of the

00:52:34 made yourself known to the police of the cordon who then directed me to the Fire Brigades command unit in front of tredgold house where I offered whatever assistance I could was that the command

00:52:45 assistance I could was that the command unit parked on Bommel Road hey it's the one tread cool bitten quite near the

00:52:56 one tread cool bitten quite near the sorry I don't have its name quite near that where the leisure centre was where the Leland's were based well let's just take a step back you say you made yourself known to the police of the

00:53:07 yourself known to the police of the Gordon who then directed me to the Fire Brigades command unit now do you remember what you asked them to to to do where you asked them to send you

00:53:18 where you asked them to send you no no so because I spoke too harsh he was already within the cordon I said I'd arrived and he said you couldn't get through without either showing some evidence like your your

00:53:30 showing some evidence like your your card your for your name and he would come and get me so in the sense I phoned enough sailors at the initial called and when he came and took me through and took me to aware of the look Authority

00:53:41 took me to aware of the look Authority liaison officer was and the little Hut that the fire brigade where I see you know it's red gold house yeah in your statement you say that the police directed you to the Fire Brigades command unit when the brothers to cordon

00:53:54 command unit when the brothers to cordon so there was a outer one which I managed to get through and the inner one which is where the the this of policeman took me to and then that's where I met Hodge right now did the policeman say this is

00:54:05 right now did the policeman say this is the command unit no I don't know I just said I was meeting harsh and he was taking me to where it was right now when you arrived at the command unit did you

00:54:16 you arrived at the command unit did you speak to any officer of the London Fire Brigade there no did you speak to any print any any officer of the Metropolitan Police no and at the time of your arrival how many TMO staff apart

00:54:29 of your arrival how many TMO staff apart from half shampoo but were there do you think what turns out there was just me in hushed there I think the estate caretaker was somewhat of it I don't think he was that that bit at the time

00:54:40 think he was that that bit at the time and how long do you remember how sham tune had been there I I'm not sure did

00:54:52 tune had been there I I'm not sure did he tell you do you remember what he told you no he told me that when he got my phone call he just got self dressed and came and he's worked his way through

00:55:09 now did he provide you with an update he in the sense there's nothing to update as well as I could see he injured just

00:55:20 as well as I could see he injured just me that we were there there was a fire burning and in the sense that he didn't have very much to tell me apart from the fire isn't it was a sort of cordoned off

00:55:32 fire isn't it was a sort of cordoned off area did he tell you about what our bkc were doing well he introduced me to the local authority liaison officer who who introduced himself and that was his job

00:55:44 introduced himself and that was his job that he was responding or requests and fitting into the emergency plan so I just just say we can build the picture in on lines of how this actually works a

00:55:55 in on lines of how this actually works a you get to the cordon yes this right tell me that if this is wrong and hash ham tune then collects you and takes you to the command unit and and is it at that time that then he introduces you to the RB KC staff yes

00:56:08 the RB KC staff yes and do you remember who you were introduced to it that they look Authority liaison officer and do you know his name I said no yes sorry do you remember his

00:56:20 I said no yes sorry do you remember his name

00:56:20 name I remember his it's Nicholas and I guess it's like yes okay and did you then have a discussion with Nick later in the Sun so I introduced myself and he got on with his business there wasn't he was

00:56:32 with his business there wasn't he was there's nothing much to say after that was he outside the command unit yes maybe let it aside the command unit was say here and we were over here outside tredgold house but beside the hedge now

00:56:51 tredgold house but beside the hedge now what what what did he say to you I'm the local authority liaison officer and that's about it really that's it that's all he said well I mean the problem the problem you know there's

00:57:03 the problem the problem you know there's a terrible fire get on on the background didn't if those firemen's of coming and going and police coming going there wasn't much to say it in someone's of

00:57:14 wasn't much to say it in someone's of actually he was just doing his job and and I was trying to sort of mobilize my work force to do what to see if they could come in to help ways and linking

00:57:26 could come in to help ways and linking with the RB Casey as the open arrest sensors did mr. Layton ask you to assist him with anything specific no no as far as I can remember so what did you think

00:57:38 as I can remember so what did you think that you were going to be asked to ask you're going to be asking your staff to do I think there's a separate thing I knew that the local authority would be opening read centers I knew that because

00:57:50 opening read centers I knew that because they might have people and the size of the disaster the RB Casey would be seeking staff to support help and run those rest centers so in a sense with

00:58:02 those rest centers so in a sense with fast and then with Teresa's about how could we actually have those resources to help the look with Aurra T when the ask them can I ask you please to look at

00:58:15 ask them can I ask you please to look at paragraph 18 of your statement on page 3 mr. black you say there that you you cannot be certain about timings and then

00:58:26 cannot be certain about timings and then you say but I would say that I remained outside the command unit from about three o'clock to 3:30 to about nine o'clock you see that yes I can see that

00:58:37 o'clock you see that yes I can see that now

00:58:41 if you arrived as you have said in your statement to paragraph five at the incident at about 2:45 a.m. can you just

00:58:53 incident at about 2:45 a.m. can you just tell us what you were doing between 2:45 a.m. if that's the right time and three o'clock no let me again it's just being now right now for the period of three

00:59:12 now right now for the period of three o'clock or 3:30 to about nine o'clock you say you were leading mostly with lfb lalu London TMA's Dauphin Dhabi Casey I said after an issue of discussion with

00:59:25 said after an issue of discussion with the local authority liaison officer I didn't have very any or a very conversation with lfb London far bigger and then I spoke will since I'm dealing

00:59:36 and then I spoke will since I'm dealing with phone calls that were coming in to me from either board members or member of staff or people I was letting to know what we were doing did you have any conversations with the lfb during this

00:59:47 conversations with the lfb during this period not very many those very busy fighting a fire what well some lfb officers were at the

00:59:58 well some lfb officers were at the command unit weren't they yeah they were inside yes and did you have any difficulty being able to communicate with them well I didn't communicate with them because they were in the command center

01:00:08 center managing the fire they releasing with the local authority liaison officer it wasn't my ruler place so he poked my head in to see how their world well let's just see if we can break this down

01:00:19 let's just see if we can break this down a little bit you say in your statement that you were lazy mostly with and you give a list and one group in the list is the lfb which and what no sorry there are babies so let's just take it in

01:00:31 are babies so let's just take it in stages

01:00:35 did you have any conversations at all with the lfb near the end of the night when I sent the email to them which is on record with the list of residents I

01:00:47 on record with the list of residents I think it was we're going to come to that okay but that is an email did you have any conversations mr. black with the lfb

01:00:58 any conversations mr. black with the lfb look light as far as I can recall right

01:01:07 now okay backs paragraph seven you say after having referred to being directed to the

01:01:19 having referred to being directed to the Fire Brigades command unit that you offered whatever assistance I could who did you offer assistance to it would have been to the local authority liaison

01:01:31 have been to the local authority liaison officer okay I think I take it from your last answer but one or two that you didn't offer assistance directly to the NFB no because again they live they went

01:01:45 NFB no because again they live they went out in the street they were in their boats doing forms

01:01:52 did the LFP make any requests directly to you law as far as I can remember if you had wanted to speak to the lfb

01:02:04 you had wanted to speak to the lfb de-rate did you get the impression that there was anything stopping you I think what was stopping me was because they were fully engaged in a fire which was

01:02:16 were fully engaged in a fire which was consuming them with time and resources and again I felt very clearly that it wasn't my room just to pop in and say something because the RB Kasey passing

01:02:28 something because the RB Kasey passing was there in control in a sense you know so that's it now paragraph 10 you have

01:02:40 so that's it now paragraph 10 you have your statement on page 2 you say that some 33 TMO staff were in attendance this is the third line up from the bottom of that paragraph some 33 TMO

01:02:52 bottom of that paragraph some 33 TMO staff were in attendance to assist with well Pharisees and to collect names of survivors and persons reported missing and first of all how was that figure arrived at hey I was told at the time it

01:03:05 arrived at hey I was told at the time it was about that I think it went up to about 40 later on who told you that I had Theresa Brian when did she tell you that when he sometime in the night when she was talking to me right and do you

01:03:24 she was talking to me right and do you know what time those staff that 33 strong group of staff first mobilized no because in sense Teresa would have been foolin around her her team and people

01:03:38 foolin around her her team and people would have been coming even dribs and drabs depending on how far they were to travel and you remember who was giving them instructions when they arrived at the scene no because they went through

01:03:50 the scene no because they went through approaching to really I think they were probably speaking to Teresa and if the rest centers were requiring people she or harsher one of the managers would direct them I didn't direct one of them are you able

01:04:01 I didn't direct one of them are you able to help me with whether they were instructed as to what information the lfb all the men needed no I think of

01:04:12 lfb all the men needed no I think of their own by because there were so many people as the night went on there was more and more people is trying to understand you know who was in the rest themselves did you ever observe any

01:04:23 themselves did you ever observe any instructions being given by Theresa brown or any other and the senior tier most after these 33 people no because they were all run the command center right did you were you not interested to

01:04:36 right did you were you not interested to know what in 33 members of your staff were actually doing I think I was interesting know that we managed to mobilize staff to help our bkc at this rest centers and I was comfortable

01:04:47 rest centers and I was comfortable allowing

01:04:48 allowing if those managers are there and they could be instructed either by GM or managers or our bkc managers to do whatever was required at the time do you know whether they had any system for

01:05:00 know whether they had any system for finding out which flats people who had managed to escape from the tower had come from and then getting that information back to the lfb I didn't know that that would be more localized

01:05:11 know that that would be more localized what was going on at the rest sentence right

01:05:15 right was that not your ultimate responsibility my responsibility was to help as much as possible I wasn't part of the emergency plan army Casey were running things and they were asking

01:05:26 running things and they were asking either my managers my staff for information in a sense my responsibility and the sense once this staff were committed wasn't wasn't to those areas of his abou every was management that

01:05:37 of his abou every was management that was a contribution of the staff who were you directly overseeing from the point of your arrival within your organization here as I overseer who was who were you directly overseeing I wasn't directly overseeing anybody I

01:05:49 I wasn't directly overseeing anybody I was in terms of once Teresa was there as director of housing I was happy to leave her to go on with it so you were just a free raving agent yes is it not roaming

01:06:00 free raving agent yes is it not roaming very far not raving even so you didn't is this right you didn't involve yourself in understanding what system your staff had adopted in order

01:06:12 system your staff had adopted in order to identify from which flats escape no idle in his building had come in order to assist the LFP with their search and rescue so I was leaving that to Theresa Brian he was collecting information and we'd be able to provide that right and

01:06:24 we'd be able to provide that right and he was helping Theresa brown in that exercise I don't know off the top of my head in probably harsher as helping but I don't have the insight into that do you not know and just did you know how

01:06:45 you not know and just did you know how hash was able to communicate with the RB Casey which are B Casey okay

01:06:57 Casey which are B Casey okay did you remember where the hash champ she was actually provided with any radio or other means of communication so that he could communicate with lb Casey I I think the way law provided him with a

01:07:09 think the way law provided him with a radio do you remember that yourself from the night I do you do at what point did that happen sometime in the night I don't have the time right do you know why the RB Casey how to provide him with

01:07:21 why the RB Casey how to provide him with the radio and you couldn't provide him with one you know I think it must be because they run an emergency plan and they have the resources to do it mr.

01:07:32 they have the resources to do it mr. chairman I've been running for just under an hour and I bet bats turn to a different topic yes might be convenient to take a short break well mister that we normally have a break after witnesses they give it giving evidence for that so we'll take a

01:07:44 giving evidence for that so we'll take a break now and ask him not to talk to anyone about for evidence on arrival in the room and we'll come back at 22 for you might give the option for yourself

01:08:14 right 2240

01:20:01 yes could you ask mr. black to come back in please

01:20:21 you might just waste a second well people set themselves

01:20:35 yesterday mr. black thanks for coming back to us before you left your home having been notified of the fire sorry

01:20:46 having been notified of the fire sorry you guys ready for the classes right before you left your home after having been notified of a fire did you make any telephone calls to anybody yes who did you call I recalled my exec

01:20:57 yes who did you call I recalled my exec team members who were about and I think I found a lot of Johnston as well right and you say your exec team is people so no but if you give me a list of the

01:21:08 no but if you give me a list of the names it sure I well maybe Barbara Matthews here's my Director of Finance yes I that was a bit because Sasha Jevons was in holiday and

01:21:19 because Sasha Jevons was in holiday and Yvonne birch was away so in the sense there wasn't that many people did he pull Theresa brown yes did you speak to Peter Medicine I tried to he didn't call

01:21:31 Peter Medicine I tried to he didn't call he didn't respond to a phone call what about Alex Bozeman no I didn't have his number Janet's ray I think I tried but she didn't answer and I think of until she's been away do

01:21:45 and I think of until she's been away do you have your phone records of that night

01:21:47 night no have you looked for them I don't have the phone so it was a company full right when I left the phone was handed back nothing and no one supplied you with transcripts paid for it which we're

01:22:00 transcripts paid for it which we're doing helpful right

01:22:06 now I know you told us that the the emergency plan wasn't in fact activated but let me just ask you one or two questions about it just to see if in

01:22:17 questions about it just to see if in fact some things were done can I ask you please to be shown the emergency plan at TM a 101 three eight nine eight and this

01:22:30 TM a 101 three eight nine eight and this is page 34 I'd like you to see please

01:22:38 checklist fire yep just looking at the page is this something you're familiar with at all mr. bone yes as part of the emergency plan it is and you're familiar

01:22:52 emergency plan it is and you're familiar with it you are informed by CSC pinnacle of air is a fire in a block to help you make an informed decision on what action is required follow this action plan yeah and then you can see questions and

01:23:04 and then you can see questions and answers questions and actions is the fire actually in a kctmapg Zack a CT may properly find the details for the Block in this plan was that an action that was

01:23:16 in this plan was that an action that was taken so far as you know by TM oh I don't think so right question five are there Casey TMO staff on site if no ask connect CSC

01:23:29 staff on site if no ask connect CSC pinnacle to dispatch ESA to site on staff site must be lit muscle yeas with emergency services and feedback info to CIC pinnacle did that action get actioned so this would be the transcript

01:23:43 actioned so this would be the transcript for FEMA staff if they were leading an emergency plan from my perspective like then happened because the RB Casey emergency plan missile appliance right

01:23:55 emergency plan missile appliance right so I think the short answer to my question is this was there but it wasn't activated at all because yeah emergency plan doesn't have act activated yeah right now can I ask you then to give back to paragraph 14 of your statement

01:24:07 back to paragraph 14 of your statement please

01:24:10 and you say there as far as IRA can recall during the time I was at the command unit and you've given the period

01:24:22 command unit and you've given the period for that in previous paragraph as 3 332 shortly before 9 a.m. you fire officers and police asked to be provided with information such as the number of floors

01:24:33 information such as the number of floors in Grenville tower number of flats occupants in the building and information such as the presence of asbestos etc all to assist the fire brigade in managing their rescue attempts now when you did your statement

01:24:47 attempts now when you did your statement that was your recollection was it yes you were looking at a document I think as you told us partner you weren't looking at a document no and do you know

01:24:59 looking at a document no and do you know who command unit fire officers asked to be provided with that information no did you observe command unit far

01:25:12 no did you observe command unit far officers asking for that information I think that came through the Lalo's asking gentlemen in general conversation

01:25:24 you were at the command unit physically as I think you've explained and and this is clear from this part of your statement or did you observe as you say

01:25:36 statement or did you observe as you say here command unit off fire officers forget police asking to be provided with the information you've listed did you observe that for yourself well I must

01:25:49 observe that for yourself well I must have yes well you say you must have what is your recollection mr. black a recollection some people there was a Jenna thing of asking for how many floors how many flats in terms of coming

01:26:03 floors how many flats in terms of coming through the Laila and then in the sense then I was so trying to remember how many floors it was and flowers see

01:26:14 many floors it was and flowers see to the best of your recollection to which person did you observe the command unit fire officers making that request get rid of into the lair the local authority layers and also did you

01:26:27 authority layers and also did you overhear that request I might have done

01:26:34 having overheard it were you able then to say to the lay low I have that information or I can get that information I think I would have thought

01:26:49 information I think I would have thought that we could try to get it but I didn't know how to get it at the scene if you see what I mean I didn't have an ordinary dinner on Fulton do you recall an occasion when a

01:27:00 Fulton do you recall an occasion when a command unit fire officer asked for this information as it were in a list number of flaws number of flats occupants technical information like presence of asbestos no apologies or was this on

01:27:12 asbestos no apologies or was this on separate occasions that you had separate requests for this kind of information if I was asked that I then asked Theresa if

01:27:27 I was asked that I then asked Theresa if she could answer he would then pass it on to the appropriate teams yeah one if you could just help me understand the position you were standing outside the

01:27:39 position you were standing outside the command unit reasonably close field is that right and the lay low was in much the same area yeah and can you recall

01:27:50 the same area yeah and can you recall whether any fire officer came out of the command unit and spoke to the lay low where you were place enough needs to see that that wasn't what was happening or

01:28:01 that that wasn't what was happening or hear the conversation no I wasn't so mostly the Laila went into the command unit I think for the meetings did you see or observe the Laila communicating with the lfb through the window hatch

01:28:14 with the lfb through the window hatch the sliding window in the side of the command unit no now Nick Layton the lay low up until about 7:00 a.m. when he

01:28:25 low up until about 7:00 a.m. when he left the site says in his witness statement that he first asked you for a list of residents of Grenfell tower after the second silver tactical

01:28:38 after the second silver tactical coordination meeting which finished at oh four fifty and he says that he asked you for that information and you then made a call to somebody asking for that information do you recall that

01:28:51 information do you recall that no do you deny it I'm not denying anything I don't recall that you simply don't know what we're a contra call one way or the other is that was that your is that what you say okay do you

01:29:06 is that what you say okay do you remember making any call at around that time 450 asking for a list of residents

01:29:17 time 450 asking for a list of residents of grenfell Tower I can't recall the moment sir mr. Layton also says in his statement that before the next silver tactical

01:29:30 that before the next silver tactical coordination meeting at 5:50 he asked you again well he asked you whether you had managed to get a list of Grenville tower residents and he says you said no

01:29:42 tower residents and he says you said no and made another call is that right I can't remember I'm sorry again are you saying it didn't happen oh you just can't remember one of the other sorry right

01:29:53 sorry right he also says mr. Layton that after the third tactical coordination meeting which started at oh five fifty and was

01:30:06 which started at oh five fifty and was probably finished they'll have to take this from me probably finished about 6:10 he told you that the fire brigade were unhappy that the information hadn't arrived do you remember that no do you

01:30:20 arrived do you remember that no do you remember making a call at that stage to get the list of residence no he also says that shortly before he left the

01:30:31 says that shortly before he left the incident as he says he did at 7:00 a.m. he checked back with you and you said you haven't yet received that information do you recall that and now I'm afraid not do you recall ever during the course of

01:30:45 do you recall ever during the course of the night making any call to anybody within your organization seeking a list of residents of this building

01:30:57 I can't remember so

01:31:02 let's see if

01:31:06 we can look at some of the documents can I please ask you to look at an email string which is a TMO 103 1 176 and I

01:31:20 string which is a TMO 103 1 176 and I want to take you please to page 10 in that email string and this is an email

01:31:36 that email string and this is an email on a set on a page which I've shown you before this afternoon mr. black we looked at your email in the middle of that page the one at 3:27 and there are two others on it at the top at the top

01:31:47 two others on it at the top at the top of the page there's an email of the 14th of June at 524 from a David Noble to Theresa brown we can just haven't forget

01:31:58 Theresa brown we can just haven't forget have that highlighted yeah

01:32:07 it's the top email david noble 14th of june a 524 to Theresa brown Robert black Angelique noble Louise najin dong-yi and

01:32:18 Angelique noble Louise najin dong-yi and Janice Ray subject Grenfell occupants Grunfeld tower xlsx all occupants of gran fellows at 30th of May 2017 still trying to get

01:32:30 30th of May 2017 still trying to get live data to run looking for plans now you are a recipient of this email and it attached a document and do you remember receiving that sometime any light yes is

01:32:44 receiving that sometime any light yes is there any reason to think that you didn't receive that at that time I was 524 I I've done if if that's the time that's a time now we have no record of

01:32:55 that's a time now we have no record of you sending that email on from your Samsung handheld to mr. Layton alter the lfb do you know that you did or not I don't think I did

01:33:06 don't think I did no you don't think you did why would that be because mr. Layton didn't ask for it

01:33:12 for it or I'd assume maybe Teresa had it did you make the assumption on the night that Teresa who was also on this email

01:33:25 that Teresa who was also on this email had said and said that to mr. Layton I can't remember assumed I think that caused trees of his organizing things I just recognized that she would have it

01:33:36 just recognized that she would have it did you have a discussion with Teresa well first of all I may ask you this were you able to communicate easily with Theresa brown you know on the incident ground when she'd arrived no I think we met and then she was off and doing

01:33:48 met and then she was off and doing things so we didn't actually see each other a lot and actually it was hard to get through to each other sometime she had a mobile with her she didn't mobile sometimes she was doing things I'd take it and when you got this email is this

01:34:00 it and when you got this email is this right you didn't manage to communicate with her and say to her you have you received this email could you please give it to the London Fire Brigade or to the Laila I didn't realize they wanted

01:34:11 the Laila I didn't realize they wanted it but you didn't realize they wanted it who did you who did you think wanted that information I only thought that David probably thought that the Theresa needed to actually sort of

01:34:24 the Theresa needed to actually sort of we tried to find I at the rest centers if all the people were there did you think that she essentially follow up to

01:34:35 think that she essentially follow up to make sure well let me try it this way did you see any email from Theresa brown or any message from Theresa bond indicating that she had passed this

01:34:46 indicating that she had passed this information on either to the lay low or to the lfb no having not seen that did you not think to check to make sure that this information had got into the Layla's hands all the NF B's hands no

01:34:58 Layla's hands all the NF B's hands no why not because I don't know they want the door did you did you turn your mind to the importance of this document or this information at all mr. blank I was

01:35:10 this information at all mr. blank I was in its of situation where I it didn't strike me at that time you were standing at this well where were you standing do you think when you got this email I

01:35:21 you think when you got this email I don't know it probably right about where the control panel problems did you not think to ask Nick Layton if he was there or the lfb who was inside whether this

01:35:32 or the lfb who was inside whether this information might be of assistance to them no because I thought they had it what made you think they had it because I just thought they would have done because they'd been on site for a long time and they would know but did you not

01:35:44 time and they would know but did you not think to double check obviously not now there's another email at page 9 go back please

01:35:53 please page TMO one zero zero three one 176 at page nine

01:36:11 and the foot of the page that's an email but ten minutes later from David Noble to the same well actually slightly

01:36:24 to the same well actually slightly different recipients this time 5:58 Robert black so you're the primary recipient on this email Theresa brown Nicola Bartholomew Janice ray Angelique Noble Grenfell residents Granville tower

01:36:38 Noble Grenfell residents Granville tower shortlist doc Graham filter updated XLS xlsx it looks like there are two documents attached to that one is a what looks like a document and the other looks like a spreadsheet and it says

01:36:50 looks like a spreadsheet and it says this is the up to date date data use this one this is sent to you it's sent to all the participants mostly here all the hosts in management team apart from

01:37:02 the hosts in management team apart from Janis ready it's also sent to you isn't it yes it's got your name on it yeah we have no record of your forwarding this

01:37:13 have no record of your forwarding this document to mr. Layton or the NFB again why is that because I I assumed that this email was for Teresa to manage the wrong she was playing and the rest

01:37:24 wrong she was playing and the rest census she tried to collect names linked with the property but again you're standing there by the command unit you receive this information it's the second time you receive this did you not think

01:37:35 time you receive this did you not think simply to put this into the hands of the lay low at that state you know because I've say I thought it was going for Teresa for the role she was playing on the night you didn't save the lay low

01:37:48 the night you didn't save the lay low just come through to me I'm sure it'll get through to you in a moment I'd never I don't think so sorry at this point did you try to get hold of Theresa brown and and ask her whether

01:38:02 Theresa brown and and ask her whether she had put this into the hands of the Layla will the lfp I don't know I don't have my telephone records with me no I know but from your recollection I it's very hard to recollect the the timing

01:38:15 very hard to recollect the the timing and the phone calls acknowledges given that this data is coming to you and and the hosts in management field mr. Beck yes I know you keep saying that and we

01:38:26 yes I know you keep saying that and we can see that on the email but given that we it comes to you you're the chief executive of this entire organization did it occur to you at the time that it was coming to you because it was important information I recognize I was

01:38:38 important information I recognize I was included in it I thought the information was for Teresa so that she could do it use it given that you are the first name recipient on this email what made you think that it was for Teresa oh that's

01:38:51 think that it was for Teresa oh that's just my thoughts at the time you recall that do you that's what I say well you recall having that thought at the time to you what I recall not doing anything with it but

01:39:05 recall not doing anything with it but you recall having the thought at the time that it was for Teresa and not for you is that is that how you yeah thought of it at the time now there's an email a little bit further back at page 4 I'm sorry to ask

01:39:19 further back at page 4 I'm sorry to ask you to get backwards in this run of correspondence from you Robert black to a person at the London Fire Brigade as

01:39:34 a person at the London Fire Brigade as you can see at London Fog of dot UK timed at Oh 756 and if you look at the text it's it's sent to the fire brigade CC - Theresa brown and it's a forwarding

01:39:47 CC - Theresa brown and it's a forwarding email do you see and it forwards the same documents grenfell tower shot this dark and Grenfell tower updated xlsx hi from Teresa and getting a hard copy

01:39:59 from Teresa and getting a hard copy Robert and then underneath it you can see the email and I've just been asking you about which was sent by David Noble to you

01:40:06 to you the others at 5:38 you see can you explain why there's a delay of two and a quarter hours between your receiving the

01:40:17 quarter hours between your receiving the details from David Noble that we see in the second email on that page of 538 and you're passing them on to the NFB I think that's when I was asked by their left B to pass it on to them so is the

01:40:32 left B to pass it on to them so is the answer to my question that the delay of two and a quarter hours between no receipt of this document and you're passing it almost that you weren't asked by the lfb until this point yes do you

01:40:45 by the lfb until this point yes do you know why you didn't pass this data on until that point no because I I was it was only then I was asked then given this London Fire Brigade email did you

01:40:58 this London Fire Brigade email did you open the email to see what the attachments were no an open on my phone did you trust too big did you ever get to see what those attachments were

01:41:09 to see what those attachments were during the course of the night no have you ever since the night seen those documents I've seen them recently in terms of the in terms of talking to

01:41:21 terms of the in terms of talking to Theresa

01:41:27 do you know why they weren't sent to my crumble at any stage after seven o'clock

01:41:39 crumble at any stage after seven o'clock once he took over and there's Lila now I want to turn to the details of the building and ask you to go back if I can please to paragraph 14 of your statement

01:42:03 before I do scientists asked another question on this this email I'm so sorry to ask you to get back to it is the email at 7:56 which is TMO one

01:42:17 is the email at 7:56 which is TMO one zero zero three one one seven six sorry to ask you to get back to mr. black and it's paid for in that run of of emails

01:42:28 at the point at which you were asked to send this to the London Fire Brigade as you say this was two and a half hours after receiving it did it not then occur to you at that time that Theresa brown

01:42:41 to you at that time that Theresa brown had sat on that email and it's information for Turner almost two hours and 20 minutes well I don't I think you'd need to ask Theresa because I'm sure and she's using

01:42:53 Theresa because I'm sure and she's using that information and the rest centers I'm asking you whether at the moment you were asked to as you say provide this information to the lfb which results in your sending this email at 7:56 did it

01:43:06 your sending this email at 7:56 did it occur to you that Theresa May had not sent it to them earlier on although it didn't occur to me I thought you had Diesel's would it not have come as

01:43:18 Diesel's would it not have come as something of a surprise to you to learn that the information that you had received as well as the reason to reason I'm so sorry require that the transcript says to reason May

01:43:30 she's bright laughter excused this is entirely my team

01:43:43 again awastha there's a serious question underlying that VM but at this point the reason Brown did it on occur to you at the point at which the London Fire Brigade asked you for this information

01:43:55 Brigade asked you for this information that your assumption that Theresa Brown had sent it to the NFB earlier was wrong and that she had delayed in doing that my assumption wasn't like an assumption

01:44:06 my assumption wasn't like an assumption was the fire brigade asked for the information and that passed along to them that's your assumption if that assumption is correct the London Fire Brigade was asking for the information that you were passing on to them did

01:44:18 that you were passing on to them did that not mean to you that Theresa Brown had failed to send it on to the London Fire Brigade at two hours before or more again you need to ask Theresa if the London Fire Brigade asked her to send

01:44:29 London Fire Brigade asked her to send information on swarm did it not occur to you that whoever had asked her she had not handed that information to the London Fire Brigade earlier on again I think you would ask that I have to ask her Gordon well I'm

01:44:41 that I have to ask her Gordon well I'm asking you what occurred to you or I current life a lot especially my questions me what gets me I was asked to send information on which I did I wasn't thinking Teresa's not doing this because she's she wasn't layer she's busy and

01:44:53 she's she wasn't layer she's busy and doing things it wasn't a simple night people were running about now paragraph 14 of your statement please you just to

01:45:06 14 of your statement please you just to get back to that we've seen it before yeah and you say in the third line from the end following these requests I made

01:45:17 the end following these requests I made inquiries from TMO staff better placed to provide accurate information this information was then passed on to Theresa brown as we got it she then passed it on to the appropriate

01:45:28 she then passed it on to the appropriate teams but first of all do you remember whether you or other other members of the TMA staff had a copy of the TMO

01:45:39 the TMA staff had a copy of the TMO emergency plan with you either in hard former or electronically no I didn't you didn't what about others I wouldn't know that

01:45:48 that now you've said before you were familiar with the TMS emergency plan can I ask you to go back to it please it's TMO 101 three eight nine eight and I'd liked to

01:46:00 three eight nine eight and I'd liked to take you please to page 39 to start with

01:46:09 and wait for it to come up on the screen it says they're part 2 property details and it's a very lengthy document but

01:46:23 and it's a very lengthy document but just in general terms you can you confirm for everybody that this document has two parts the first part of which is the plan and part two of which is the property details yeah so the first part strategic in terms of the plan and the

01:46:35 strategic in terms of the plan and the second parts the operational detail now if I can ask you please then to go to page 145 and just

01:46:48 page 145 and just we've got that there we looked earlier on we saw that this plan was revised in February 2016 earlier on in her evidence just to remind you of that looking at page 145 this is is this right this is

01:47:01 page 145 this is is this right this is the page for Graham felt our Lancaster West yeah and it goes on to 146 it goes over to pages and and this is a format

01:47:12 over to pages and and this is a format which is used for all the other properties under the PMO's remit is that right yeah one for each block one for each block is

01:47:26 one for each block one for each block is it only blocks or is it is it other TMA property as well when in sunsets the house and stock and was the house how it's broken down right and then it says halfway down the page about that under

01:47:38 halfway down the page about that under the title about the local environment nearby place where and Police Fire ambulance can gather initially the fire services would pull up under the blocking rental road because of the

01:47:49 blocking rental road because of the position of the fire right sir gathering point can be the car park overflow located by soldiers to raid whether is a space to set up and then information useful to the emergency services you see

01:48:02 useful to the emergency services you see there our first first question our basic plans available and if so are these attached and there's a blank do you know whether or not there were any plans

01:48:14 whether or not there were any plans available to be attached to this part of the emergency plan I wouldn't know the detail of that so who would it be the operational teams so

01:48:26 who would it be the operational teams so it cut across Hyson management asset management and health and safety so in since they pulled information together and then you could see some other questions down the page main electrical

01:48:39 questions down the page main electrical intake gas water and then other significant special features other on site specific information location irrelevant keys in reception ground-floor and then over the page

01:48:50 ground-floor and then over the page other means of escape stairs exit at walkway level and

01:48:59 and I should have shown you this on the first pages on your sorry to get back to it number of dwellings sort of get back to the first page yeah number of dwellings give up the page so this is my

01:49:15 dwellings give up the page so this is my fault I should have shown you it first time we looked at this number of dwellings 120 and then under that approximate number of residence 332 360 and then please give an indication for

01:49:27 and then please give an indication for the likely number of vulnerable residents 8 to 12 and then if you go back to page 146 other means of escape stairs exit at walkway level and then

01:49:41 stairs exit at walkway level and then other information the block has an automatic fire alarm and smoke extract system and then you can see that there's

01:49:54 system and then you can see that there's some fire safety advice second entry up from the bottom in that box in case of fire residents are advised to remain in their homes and less affected by heat or smoke may be advised by fire services or

01:50:05 smoke may be advised by fire services or the estate office when to leave their homes and then the date 25th of February 2002 yeah do you know whether there's a

01:50:16 2002 yeah do you know whether there's a more up-to-date version of this document as part of the emergency plan a it should be I'm very disappointed to see the dates here right so if there isn't

01:50:27 the dates here right so if there isn't and we haven't seen one as at the night of the fire this document was 15 years out of date is that right it would appear to be so

01:50:38 is that right it would appear to be so and it wouldn't even reflect the refurbishment yep like Yuri because if it did it would say 129 flats yeah I reckon well presumably if it did it would reflect the up-to-date number of vulnerable residents you did well they

01:50:52 vulnerable residents you did well they up-to-date vulnerable residents would be on their house and management system not on that so that's alive I record so in a sense these are almost static and Sampson have to be updated

01:51:08 on the night itself did you actually have in your hands or the other TMA staff's hands a reliable number for vulnerable residents in that building

01:51:19 vulnerable residents in that building they I wouldn't have had and I think that's what in terms of Theresa would we try to get thing through the data of the system given that it's one of the three

01:51:32 system given that it's one of the three houses or factors that are part of the emergency plan did it occur to you on the night it goes through your head on the night the one thing you needed to do is to make sure that you or somebody who

01:51:44 is to make sure that you or somebody who was reporting to you had as soon as possible in their hands an up-to-date and reliable list of who the vulnerable residents of this building were and in

01:51:55 residents of this building were and in that sense that would be my operation director director - Teresa bright he sent her staff with update that information where appropriate if they knew about - did you give her any

01:52:07 knew about - did you give her any specific instructions to go and find that information no because she's a director when she would probably understand that herself did you and she ever have during the course of that night any conversation

01:52:19 course of that night any conversation about how to go about finding that information no because I think she would know how to do that

01:52:31 can I ask you then please to look at an email TMO 1 double 0 3 1 1 6 I'd like

01:52:42 email TMO 1 double 0 3 1 1 6 I'd like you to go in to page 6 please

01:52:55 No this is an email sent is it more comfortable to what could that one or in a pencil my so this is better at the

01:53:07 a pencil my so this is better at the moment now this is an email from David Noble 14th of June 2017 at oh six oh

01:53:21 Noble 14th of June 2017 at oh six oh three mr. mr. black sent to Theresa brown Janice ray and Nicola Bartholomew now I appreciate you're not on that email distribution list and it says

01:53:32 email distribution list and it says subject Grenfell emergency plans section and then we can see if we just follow our ID on the page it says name of block Grenville tower and then the postal

01:53:44 Grenville tower and then the postal address etc and the number of dwellings you see yeah twenty one hundred and twenty approximate number of residents 332 360 indication of vulnerable

01:53:55 332 360 indication of vulnerable residents eight to twelve you can see the theme that's emerging can't you hear yep and then if you turn the page you can see at the bottom of page seven

01:54:06 can see at the bottom of page seven location of relevant keys in reception ground floor and then at the top of page eight stairs exit a walkway level it

01:54:18 eight stairs exit a walkway level it looks as if mr. noble had simply cut and pasted the details for Grenaa failed from part two of the TMO emergency plan that we were looking at earlier dated

01:54:29 that we were looking at earlier dated 2002 and sent them on the night of the fire to the incident ground it was like that yes did you know that he did that at the time though because it's not copied in smart so you didn't know that

01:54:42 copied in smart so you didn't know that TMO staff was sending detailed information about this building that was 15 years out of date so why I know is David sent it to the house and management team who again you would have

01:54:54 management team who again you would have to check with Theresa who understood that to be light of day and that's for as much as I know that's

01:55:05 and that's for as much as I know that's as much as you don't know what Teresa Brown did with this material I think I recognized Teresa later I think she'd be able to tell you that Robyn may suggest me right so this is again this is

01:55:20 me right so this is again this is something for Teresa to answer not for you is that right well I think it's since it's cents Teresa it'd be useful to hear her views rather than mine since I didn't know about it when did you first discover oh but let

01:55:33 when did you first discover oh but let me put it this way is this the first time that you've discovered the information which is 15 years out of date

01:55:38 date about this building was being sent from your TMA's look between your TMO staff on the night of the fire I discovered it when we were preparing the email train for today to understand the time span

01:55:53 right and I meant to ask you about about that but in preparation but as a result of discovering that did you any have you undertaken any further investigations as

01:56:05 undertaken any further investigations as to how it could be the information that was 15 years out of date I wish I could but unfortunately anymore I'm no longer chief exec there and I left the organization very well did

01:56:19 Teresa brown or Janice ray or Nicola Nicola bar follow me you tried to contact you and tell you not to give this information to anybody the lay low

01:56:30 this information to anybody the lay low or the lfb or the police because it was 15 years out of date and materially inaccurate well for a start I don't have it it wasn't sense for me ever I wouldn't know that hey I'll repeat my question yeah wasn't

01:56:43 hey I'll repeat my question yeah wasn't the premise of my choice to mr. black I'll put it again did did any of the people who did receive this email Theresa brown Janice ray or or Nicola Bartholomew contact you on the night and tell you until you not to provide this

01:56:57 tell you until you not to provide this information to the to the LFE from so I can provide it because I don't have it and certainly I don't remember them contact me did they contact you and tell you that

01:57:09 did they contact you and tell you that they had received information which was 15 years out-of-date and could you help them obtain information which was up-to-date hey I don't remember that and imagine they have them or up to the information than I would have right so I

01:57:21 information than I would have right so I think the answer to my question is that there was no such conversation you know

01:57:27 now where you specifically asked to provide plans of this building during the time that you were at the scene I can't remember that is that you can't

01:57:40 can't remember that is that you can't remember one way or the other I can't remember if I can gone through it right now let's see if you can help me with some documents there's an email at our BK quadruple zero one four six eight

01:58:02 and this is an email sent it appears at 5:15 from your Samsung device to John

01:58:13 5:15 from your Samsung device to John Allen first of all who is John Allen I I find out that he is a building engineer

01:58:25 find out that he is a building engineer he was asked to look at the building on the day by the bomb now you are forwarding an email you've received the

01:58:36 forwarding an email you've received the below fire access plans from the refurb DC and there are some attachments to it and just look at what you're forwarding what you're forwarding below where you

01:58:48 what you're forwarding below where you see you say sent from my sanctioned device so David Noble from David Noble to Janet's ray Robert black Nicola Bartholomew fire access plans from the

01:58:59 Bartholomew fire access plans from the reefer and that email is timed at oh six fourteen it looks as if your email but

01:59:10 fourteen it looks as if your email but let me ask you in a more open way can you explain the time discrepancy given that you receive an email at 6:14 and affording it at 5:16 no I think this was another one of these

01:59:22 no I think this was another one of these emails that in this that the the timing doesn't make sense so could it be simply the in fact the time you receive that

01:59:34 the in fact the time you receive that emails at 6:14 and you sent it at 660 and for some technical reason your Samsung device has recorded it as being sent an hour earlier I don't know it

01:59:47 sent an hour earlier I don't know it just seems very strange timing that you've got 6:14 and - 5:16 I this was I think again contracted my solicitors this was provided by RB Casey it wasn't

01:59:59 this was provided by RB Casey it wasn't in our pack of emails yes I'm just about these times because you'll notice been in the original email the timing is

02:00:11 been in the original email the timing is given as GMT plus naught so it's it's not suggested for summertime now that would make it even later yes but it still raises a question attention to

02:00:22 still raises a question attention to some of these timings so it may be at some point we need to make that examine them now they're just asking the witness whether or not you can explain the discrepancy maybe given that what is being forwarded is received at at 6:14

02:00:35 being forwarded is received at at 6:14 as it as it appears and you forward it on at 5:55 16 one or other of those is incorrect and I'm just asking you to assist us given that you are the recipient and sender whether you can assist us I can't tell you them to

02:00:47 assist us I can't tell you them to that's all right we might be able to make some more sense of this if you go back and let's have them keep this one on the page mister documents director please and go back

02:00:59 documents director please and go back then to TM oh one zero zero three one one seven six page ten which is an email

02:01:10 one seven six page ten which is an email we showed we looked at earlier on together mr. black so if we have that one on the page and then also on the on

02:01:21 one on the page and then also on the on the screen while I just referred to now what I want to show you is the one from David noble @o v 24 to you where at the

02:01:35 David noble @o v 24 to you where at the end of the line it says still looking for plans do you see yeah weaker HAP's have that highlighted

02:01:43 in the right hand side if the highlighter can go on them for scrap the the line of the email at the top of the page all occupants of Grenfell as a 30th of May 2017 still trying to get live

02:01:56 of May 2017 still trying to get live data to run looking for plans I just want to emphasize looking for plans it looks as if David Noble sends an email to you at oh five twenty four saying

02:02:07 to you at oh five twenty four saying looking for plans if that is right which it appears to be it would suggest that you couldn't have been sending plans to John Allen at 5:16 some eight minutes

02:02:21 John Allen at 5:16 some eight minutes beforehand and therefore the time at which David Noble sends you plans at six forty would be correct not sure I

02:02:37 forty would be correct not sure I followed your question I'm sorry mister minute right let me do it again yes in the Gotham way David Noble sends an email at 524 to you saying looking for plans it stands to reason that if he was

02:02:50 plans it stands to reason that if he was still looking for plans at 524 you couldn't have been sending plans to Jerry what do you [Music]

02:03:05 all right well this is the chance of just exploring this so the witness he may not well the only question is

02:03:29 may not well the only question is whether mr. black can help us understand the problem if you can't we'll have to work it out well I think we've probably squeezed this lemon drive you've had you've got the documents you'll have to

02:03:40 you've got the documents you'll have to make sense that mr. chairman I'm just trying to see whether the witness can help if I'm afraid I can yours as he can't did yeah well let me see if I can do a little better if I can ask you

02:03:55 do a little better if I can ask you please to be shown a meaty quadruple zero five four zero four

02:04:12 and go please to page 5 in that should just be clear mr. black I'm just using these documents to see if I can assist with your recollection when you didn't see this document this is the log

02:04:26 see this document this is the log compiled by the incident commander assistant commissioner and Eero through his log east and at page 5 there is a

02:04:37 his log east and at page 5 there is a record of a meeting or discussion at 613 d SE district severe and then I got to show you the third line of that will attempt to locate plans john allen now

02:04:52 attempt to locate plans john allen now if that is correct and 613 is the correct time does that help you with your recollection as to when you sent plans to john allen no I'm afraid not

02:05:06 plans to john allen no I'm afraid not I can see that even though I've shown you your own email just shortly after that which sends plans to John Allen by

02:05:17 that which sends plans to John Allen by email as soon as the time seemed very confusing and well

02:05:29 the great respect that that there only confuse if you want them to be confused the email that you set under which you send John Allen the plans is very very shortly after six thirteen now I know

02:05:42 shortly after six thirteen now I know you didn't see this document at the time but to the best of your recollection I put it to you once more do you think you sent the plans to John Allen at about 6:15 or after six thirteen or was it

02:05:53 6:15 or after six thirteen or was it about five thirteen an hour before a system Commissioner Roe asks for them from John Allen oh we don't be able to clarify that for us all it's a is the

02:06:07 clarify that for us all it's a is the answer to my question you simply can't remember yeah I remember on the night of that specific detail right why did you forward the plans to John Allen do you know no I think I must have been asked

02:06:20 know no I think I must have been asked but I can't remember for just but did you or anybody at the TMO send these to the l FB I I don't know do you remember being asked

02:06:33 I don't know do you remember being asked by anybody to send plans to the lfb

02:06:42 we're you aware after the end of the I'll give you the time because you went at the meeting at about at about 7:30 or so after the force tactical coordination

02:06:55 so after the force tactical coordination meeting at 7:15 that at that meeting a request had been made by the incident commander for plans

02:07:07 so as question again so was aware of it when I repeat the question were you aware after the end of the fourth tactical Commission meeting which

02:07:18 fourth tactical Commission meeting which started at 7:13 that the incident commander and ero had asked for plans of Grenville tower I can't remember

02:07:29 Grenville tower I can't remember apologies I know a sent the list of the fire brigades after seven o'clock as well that was the main one

02:07:43 let me see if I can again and show you a dot a document to prompt your recollection same document we're in the page seven please

02:08:02 and on that page you can see just above the time mark of a 735 mr. blank just above halfway down it says and he wants from LA numbers and where people in rest

02:08:14 from LA numbers and where people in rest centers came from ie Granville house that should be Greenville police request electoral roll from local authority six packs per floor confirmed by Tom Goodell

02:08:25 packs per floor confirmed by Tom Goodell and then this and ero requests plans from local authority Lalo is mister rumble now you aren't at this meeting I'm assuming not seen stalking me before no but my question is simply this at

02:08:38 no but my question is simply this at about this time so after this meeting about 7:30 do you remember mister rumble asking you for plans of grenfell town no

02:08:49 for plans of grenfell town no recollection do you know whether this request for plans was actioned I'm not

02:09:00 request for plans was actioned I'm not mr. rumble of which do you know whether the TMO assisted the lot the local authority in finding plans for Grandville town I'm not sure I thought

02:09:12 Grandville town I'm not sure I thought they would have had them

02:09:16 do you remember having any contact with my Trumbull yes I've met him once before now in his

02:09:29 yes I've met him once before now in his statement and as he told us this morning he says that you had a copy of the plans of one floor on your mobile phone at approximately 7:40 a.m. do you

02:09:44 at approximately 7:40 a.m. do you remember anything about that no I was made aware of that in preparation for this and when we looked at the emails of actually what was sent to the fire brigade that was a list of the residents

02:09:59 so I don't we haven't seen any emails from the fire brigade to give a clarification on that

02:10:08 do you remember whether the plan that you received from David Noble and sent to John Allen was the plan that you had on your mobile phone

02:10:23 I'm not sure so I imagine it must be

02:10:33 now mr. rumble says that he recalls you speaking to a fire officer at the command unit and he believes that he forwarded that you forwarded the plan to

02:10:45 forwarded that you forwarded the plan to the requested far email address so again according to the emails of scene and preparation they render at that time sending an email to the fire brigade

02:10:57 sending an email to the fire brigade email which had the lists I of their residence we and I haven't been shown an email that shows that included that

02:11:09 email that shows that included that their plan sucks

02:11:12 mr. channel we've been going for another hour so yes all the time for another break I'm conscious that it's 4:30 I don't have very much more to cover with this witness but it would be obviously essential to finish him tonight well it

02:11:23 essential to finish him tonight well it would if we care we can slide you're reluctant to sit beyond final thought could we started off not really as it was and it absolutely no is that gonna be feasible yes it is but it is subject

02:11:35 be feasible yes it is but it is subject to other things yes well I imagine you'd like to finish what happens this evening mr. Mallory didn't you do would you like a break or would you rather keep going on the basis that the sooner we I draw

02:11:47 on the basis that the sooner we I draw well the more you keep going the sinew thing yeah I would I appreciate your comfortable I think the honor mr. millet is just keep their very good

02:12:04 do you

02:12:08 remember anything about sending plans to the lfb after about 7:40 I know I

02:12:21 the lfb after about 7:40 I know I haven't seen an email or that I did that

02:12:26 but do you remember what I'm trying to base on evidence that in sense of preparation I don't have an email sent to the London Fire Brigade there really the question is do you have any

02:12:37 the question is do you have any independent recollection of that no gorgeous

02:12:54 did you know that at some point in the morning of the 14th of June after Nick Layton had left and well my Trumbull was

02:13:07 Layton had left and well my Trumbull was still the lay low plans did arrive oh yeah I didn't know that you don't it is your evidence that you can't recall having any involvement with plans at all

02:13:19 having any involvement with plans at all other than the email I showed you yeah

02:13:26 now I want to ask you about another email TMO one zero zero three one one seventy six please

02:13:51 at page 9 1 TMO 1 0 0 3 1 1 76 page 9

02:14:03 this is an email from you on the 14th of June 2017 at 6 a.m. - Peter Madison

02:14:16 June 2017 at 6 a.m. - Peter Madison Barbara Matthews Janice ray and Devon birch copied - Theresa brown and hash shampoo subject fire

02:14:27 fire you see yeah - update Teresa and hash ah that says mangling resources that the rest bite centers I'm sure that should be managing our FM + n PB a-- here that

02:14:41 be managing our FM + n PB a-- here that are making statements saying very little could you just tell us you are FM and NP Beto Rockford and melon he was that team leader and League member for - Nick Padgett Brian who's leader of the King

02:14:53 Padgett Brian who's leader of the King saw questions about the cladding and spec questions about how its spread and then forget the next line and then we

02:15:06 then forget the next line and then we need all the information about the refurbishment as this will be a primary focus Peter in his team now first of all questions about cladding and spec with

02:15:17 questions about cladding and spec with these questions that you were asking yourself on the night all being asked of you on the night asked of me by who when when Nick Padgett rode in that came they were asking because obviously you

02:15:30 they were asking because obviously you know it looked like the cladding was an issue so therefore all I was trying to do was pull together some heads up and pointers about what we would have to

02:15:41 pointers about what we would have to prepare for either for our B KCUR ultimately for inquiring which we know that we'd be that time were you passing those

02:15:52 that time were you passing those questions that they were asking of you on to anybody at that time no that's the incentive for me that was a super trades up email to those people who cover those

02:16:03 up email to those people who cover those areas in terms of Directors sort of senior managers I see I just reflection on the evening or that morning query well right Debbie just said that I'm clear about your evidence are you saying that they were saying

02:16:15 are you saying that they were saying there were questions or were they actually asking you questions they were saying what's happening so his journal that was a general they were asking general questions which I didn't have

02:16:26 general questions which I didn't have the answer to right and while then was really read regurgitating that back to my team that these are the things that people were asking about and actually as the lead people for those areas you would need to start quite quickly galvan

02:16:38 would need to start quite quickly galvan that information not just for for RB Casey or inquire a bit from my board as well and what were the questions that you were being asked about the cladding well they won't they won't agree the

02:16:49 well they won't they won't agree the questions are saying is what's up and have you seen the cladding that's very general in terms of actually what this fits many very general headlines I sent to my team yes you said in the last answer they were general what were the

02:17:01 answer they were general what were the general questions all those well they say general does not have any content the so general it last days to have an accomplice knows more about how you could perceive that people are going to

02:17:12 could perceive that people are going to be asking lots of questions and having encountered that information and what made you think at that point in the night that the refurbishment would be a primary focus we it wasn't it was asking

02:17:25 primary focus we it wasn't it was asking about hope I mean I don't know they wouldn't know how the fire sort of created that problem and it was just these journal things I'd picked up I wanted to send to the team

02:17:42 you say just these general things you picked up you wanted to send to the team just be a bit more specific what what was it about the refurbishment that you thought meant that it would be a primary

02:17:54 thought meant that it would be a primary focus wow that's what I thought is that we have a brand new refurbished building that's on fire and a terrible fire and people will be asking how could that

02:18:05 people will be asking how could that happen

02:18:06 happen soon so that's as general as that in terms actually people will be wanting to look in more detail you know in terms actually what are the issues you know

02:18:17 actually what are the issues you know it's a disaster that people will come after asking those questions it's by trying to get the team to start thinking how do you collect that information and so it can be available you know in more

02:18:28 so it can be available you know in more detail at this time on the night of the fire were you aware of any deficiencies in the building so far as concerned fire safety no did you have in take it from

02:18:41 safety no did you have in take it from that that you therefore never had any discussion with the lfb about fire safety and on the night no did you ask any questions of Janice Rey or anybody

02:18:53 any questions of Janice Rey or anybody else in the TMO responsible for the refurbishment on the night whether they knew whether there were any deficiencies so far as regards bar so you know and I

02:19:06 so far as regards bar so you know and I think you then left the site around about 9:00 a.m. we'll say yeah and then you went straight to where did you go after that I think I went to RB Casey

02:19:20 after that I think I went to RB Casey for the first school I think it was the first school meeting they were

02:19:29 in general terms and just as a general question would you accept that it would have been helpful to have building plans a list of residents and asbestos list

02:19:43 a list of residents and asbestos list documents like that readily to hand I I think that would be useful is its depends where they are because usually they're on the system it's like getting them off the system what is did you make

02:19:57 them off the system what is did you make any assumption as to whether the council had those documents or pieces of information or whether they were more readily available to the TMO I made no assumptions in in terms of actually we

02:20:11 assumptions in in terms of actually we would probably have information and the people to find it are the ones I mentioned did you get any sense on the night that things that you things that

02:20:23 night that things that you things that were needed were absolutely integral to the council's response to this fire well I think the inspector rule that the council required is how is dealing with

02:20:35 council required is how is dealing with the unfolding disaster reinder bihter in support of the fire men were fighting the fire because what it was creating it was a wave of people who didn't want to

02:20:47 was a wave of people who didn't want to stay in their homes in needed support so again the primary at that stage would be how you actually man and support the red census and just to put trying to get the

02:21:01 census and just to put trying to get the same point a slightly different way did you have any discussions or conversations with anybody on the night about how you could best assist our bkc in responding to this fire well I think

02:21:14 in responding to this fire well I think how we best assist was taking instruction from the narvik-a see officers who were helping there wasn't any bar-b-que see senior managers on-site apart from the their labels did

02:21:26 on-site apart from the their labels did you did you volunteer any particular assistance in terms of documents or or anything like that to the lolly or were you just essentially waiting to be asked by them essentially waiting to

02:21:38 be asked by them essentially waiting to be asked for them and aligned with the strategic plan in line with the RB KC strategy NO so it would that me that you would describe your role on the night and that of your organization is essentially passive yes because in the

02:21:50 essentially passive yes because in the sense that our BK see emergency plan was in operation and our plan wasn't so as passive in the sense that I wasn't part of the emergency structure

02:22:10 can I ask you to give back please to an email we looked at earlier which is the email of TM oh it's 3-1 176

02:22:33 yes it's TMO 1 double 0 3 1 1 76 page 9

02:22:43 I'm so sorry let me give you a different reference I could have got a better one I think which is a lesson though is that the wrong page it is yes yes we do need to know that lfb triple zero

02:22:55 to know that lfb triple zero triple zero two four three seven zero if it's the same document that it is slightly under a different reference like this our not going to apologize for

02:23:06 like this our not going to apologize for taking you to a different reference this is an email from you

02:23:14 lfb triple zero two four three seven zero this is an email from yes it's the bottom of the page Robert black Oh 757

02:23:30 bottom of the page Robert black Oh 757 to good old Thomas no we know that's an L FB officer yeah copy Theresa brown forward Grenville residents hi from Theresa and getting a hard copy Robert

02:23:41 Theresa and getting a hard copy Robert no this is this is back to the list of residents my question is who do you run the weather that was sent to the lfb in response to a request to you from the l

02:23:54 response to a request to you from the l FB I can't remember they came from the Lulla or because someone had to give me the Fire Brigades

02:24:05 the Fire Brigades email which I didn't have who gave you the email I can't remember so right

02:24:16 mr. black I have no further questions for you that isn't to say there may not be one or two more but thank you very much so far mr. Chairman I gotta ask you to rise for a few minutes to see if they're anything yes well in this stage

02:24:28 they're anything yes well in this stage we do normally break for five minutes and that council to check that these on the ground you needs to cover so our rice of five minutes again pass through not to talk to anyone about some parameters on the right of the room and

02:24:39 parameters on the right of the room and we'll be back at 10:00 to 5:00 see if there's a legal right

02:24:55 ten to five inches

02:34:25 well allow us to a little few more question just a few misses yes could you ask Miss - blech - come back in please

02:34:50 like I think just yes mr. black can I ask you please to go back to your witness statement of page two and this

02:35:01 witness statement of page two and this is TMO 104 eight nine six one and look please a paragraph 14 we looked at this together before and I showed it to you

02:35:13 together before and I showed it to you if we could have paragraph 14 expanded please and you say that you can recall the command unit fire officers were

02:35:24 the command unit fire officers were asking for information such as and then we see the presence of asbestos etc I just want to focus on that do you remember who asked you to find out

02:35:39 remember who asked you to find out information about asbestos specifically are not specifically do you know whether information about asbestos was handed

02:35:51 information about asbestos was handed over to the LF be in accordance with what you say they were after I don't if they were able to get it on the night probably got it later on in a day did you yourself did the TMI actually have a

02:36:02 you yourself did the TMI actually have a policy positively promoting asbestos awareness I think so we had an asbestos policy I'm not aware of the details of

02:36:13 policy I'm not aware of the details of it yeah and that was monies and her health and safety department when you heard that the London Fire Brigade was interested in information about the presence of asbestos dust did you

02:36:24 presence of asbestos dust did you yourself consider the dangers of asbestos in the facility they didn't know no I imagine it was just one of the things you worry about because you don't know what's in the building it's about

02:36:36 know what's in the building it's about how you access that information did you take it upon yourself to ask any members of your staff to find out what asbestosis was in the building so that

02:36:48 asbestosis was in the building so that you could help the lfb answered their question in the sense that we during my health and safety team here we'd have that information do you remember asking a health and safety team to assist you

02:36:59 a health and safety team to assist you to get that information so that you could assist the NFB no I imagine that was something that would come later on in the morning once we had more people so when you sayno do use it you don't remember all that you didn't

02:37:11 you don't remember all that you didn't ask but I don't remember looking at paragraph 15 of your statement you say I

02:37:22 paragraph 15 of your statement you say I recall I just wait for you to yeah it says I recall the LFP being particularly anxious to know the names of people known to be in the building

02:37:33 known to be in the building I recall explaining to the officers the tea ma would be able to provide the names of the registered tenants in these holders that the TMO did not hold records of occupants and visitors therefore TMO would not be able to

02:37:45 therefore TMO would not be able to provide that level of detail now you told us earlier this afternoon in a number of times you didn't have or don't recall having conversations with the lfp

02:37:57 recall having conversations with the lfp when you write your statement and you do appear to have recalled having a conversation with officers you said about the provision of information about registered tenants and lease holders

02:38:08 registered tenants and lease holders when you say officers there do you mean the NFB I

02:38:17 I can give this to the labels well it's in the context of the NFB being particularly anxious to know the names of the people known to be in the building

02:38:26 building imagine lfb ask the little symbol it was asked me you don't say that there and instead you say you recall the lfb being particularly anxious to know the names

02:38:37 particularly anxious to know the names of the people and you recall explaining to the officers the TMA would be able to help provide the names of register tents but so that was the recollection is the best of my knowledge at that time so you

02:38:48 best of my knowledge at that time so you did have a is this is it right there actually you did have a conversation with the NFB as you record here about the names of the people known to be in the building I didn't say that I said or a cog explaining to the officers and it

02:38:59 a cog explaining to the officers and it might be the label they explained how and what information we would have we wouldn't have information and everybody in the building mr. black why did you choose to use the word officers here when you meant Lalo's I don't know

02:39:11 when you meant Lalo's I don't know Alfred did you really mean to lay nezam or do you actually mean officers of the London Fire Brigade to whom you refer in the previous sentence general officers

02:39:22 the previous sentence general officers it's only recently I've got my head around the whole label so I think what I did was the best my knowledge at time wrote that down

02:39:36 well it looks a mug plain reading of this paragraph that you did have a conversation with the lfb about the names of people in the building I can't

02:39:50 names of people in the building I can't recall that wrong Borges and you now can't recall it no very well now you

02:40:03 can't recall it no very well now you were at the scene as you told us from 3:00 3:30 till you left about nine ish we'll say that's about six six and a half hours would that be right yes what were you

02:40:16 would that be right yes what were you actually doing during that period standing there responding to food and calls speaking to people on the phone not very much as I said because I wasn't

02:40:27 not very much as I said because I wasn't part of the the structure so ending they're responding to phone calls and speaking to my team generally of those

02:40:41 speaking to my team generally of those communications is there anything that stands out which was the subject of those communications so what we've got as a disaster that's unfolding and since

02:40:52 as a disaster that's unfolding and since I'm chief executive accompany and people phoning up and asking they I've got a board who are asking questions and those are the general things as that the fire brigade were fighting the fire and gets one off it no further questions like

02:41:08 one off it no further questions like thank you very much for assisting us with our investigations and that's grateful thank you and I'd add my thanks mr. black it's important to us to hear from all those who are within the cordon during that night however capacity helps

02:41:22 during that night however capacity helps to fill in another piece of the jigsaw thank you very much for company goodness your system and I'm sorry we kept you so late it's evening we have to do so but it needs to be managed to finish residents I prefer

02:41:33 be managed to finish residents I prefer to have finished thank you thank you I'd like to give you the option

02:41:53 yes mr. chairman I'm two things first of all I'm grateful to you for sitting late it's been an extremely long day and tiring for everyone in the room right Christmas on everyone's patience for

02:42:04 Christmas on everyone's patience for something well I'm sorry I have but I think was essential to finish the witnesses I'm grateful to the transcribers and to the trial director for bearing with me Theresa Brown was

02:42:16 for bearing with me Theresa Brown was clearly programmed for this afternoon so president that we will not be able to reach her today even if I thought it was a good idea to ask you don't there is a

02:42:28 a good idea to ask you don't there is a human aspect to this which is that she is extremely anxious to give her evidence as possible and there is a good reason forensic Lee why her evidence should follow that of mr. black I would

02:42:39 should follow that of mr. black I would like to explore overnight whether it's possible to call her first thing in the morning in place of mr. shamshuddin and mr. Webb but there are other considerations as well then there are

02:42:52 considerations as well then there are other considerations as well and and I don't want anybody in the room to be under any illusions as to whether that's possible or not but I'd like to explore it if it is possible then I would like to be able to call her tomorrow morning

02:43:03 to be able to call her tomorrow morning in place of mr. where the mr. shams you know and find a place soon in the timetable for there instead but I need to be able to make sure that I've raised it with all the right people so that that can be done well thank you for

02:43:15 that can be done well thank you for giving that indication I think all we can all I can say is make your inquiries those who are preparing to hear theories around today will be ready for bed in

02:43:26 around today will be ready for bed in the morning if she comes in the morning and I think just see to see what can be arranged I'm very grateful mr. chairman we'll see what we can do I think it is

02:43:39 we'll see what we can do I think it is if we do have to call if we're calling her tomorrow morning then I think of it a 10:00 a.m. start would would still be a good start I think think it would be early enough yes I'm yes I detect that

02:43:51 early enough yes I'm yes I detect that this time of the night after the day we've had me asking for a 9:30 start would be perhaps not the best form of advocacy thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you very much