Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Exova Evidence - Monday 16 March 2020 (1/2)
00:00:38 good morning everyone and welcome to today's hearing as you can see I'm here on my own this morning and that's because the inquiry learned quite late
00:00:51 because the inquiry learned quite late last night that mr. Fund has been taken ill and would be unable to attend today's hearing some of her symptoms seemed to be similar to those that we've
00:01:03 seemed to be similar to those that we've been led to expect of kovat 19 but it's too early to know whether she's contracted the virus and we shan't know that for a little while she is however
00:01:15 that for a little while she is however able to follow the proceedings remotely and she's able to communicate with the inquiry by email in those circumstances any vulnerable individuals or those who
00:01:27 any vulnerable individuals or those who may be concerned about kovat 19 should obviously feel free not to attend any hearings in person and I see that there are very few members of the public here
00:01:38 are very few members of the public here today and should instead follow the proceedings remotely on the livestream but I would like to reassure you that stringent cleaning measures have been
00:01:49 stringent cleaning measures have been put in place the premises including over the weekend and will continue for as long as is necessary in addition to the installation of hand sanitizer
00:02:01 installation of hand sanitizer throughout the venue we've increased daily cleaning activity to ensure that all surfaces in the public areas are wiped regularly with an appropriate form of disinfectant and I'll talk to you a
00:02:14 of disinfectant and I'll talk to you a little later about our thoughts about how we continue from here but before I do that I understand that mr. Williamson wants to address me yes mr. Williams
00:02:25 wants to address me yes mr. Williams good morning sir thank you thank you for this opportunity as you all thought I here on behalf of the team to briefers brief survivors and residents self-evidently the cove in 19
00:02:38 residents self-evidently the cove in 19 occurring of Rs 19 position has changed considerably since we last met on Thursday since then numerous responsible organizations have taken steps additional to those which
00:02:51 taken steps additional to those which the government has prescribed for example universities are stopping face-to-face teaching many visitors have told their staff to work from home many businesses and other organizations are
00:03:03 businesses and other organizations are screening visitors football matches have been postponed and sold and I should say that with regard to this inquiry as I think is evident in the room some of the
00:03:14 think is evident in the room some of the law firms involved and many of the corporate that many of the core participants involved have now taken the view that they cannot responsibly require their staff to attend clearly
00:03:29 require their staff to attend clearly the inquiry cannot simply carry on as if nothing is happening nor can it with respect shelter behind the assertion that it will follow a government advice the inquiry needs itself to consider and
00:03:43 the inquiry needs itself to consider and to announce publicly the results of such consideration as to what it considers should be done to protect the health of those involved it seems to us that there
00:03:54 those involved it seems to us that there are three issues now the first is the news which we receive very late last night as to the unfortunate illness of the MERS Estevan clearly the news that
00:04:05 the MERS Estevan clearly the news that she may have the virus is very concerning for her and others until her position is clarified and I should say that may not be easy due to the lack of testing facilities we do not see how the
00:04:20 testing facilities we do not see how the hearing can proceed in any event with a panel of two members one of whom is unfit to attend there is also obviously the question of those with whom she has
00:04:32 the question of those with whom she has been in contact secondly the enquiry needs to consider as are all other responsible organizations whether there are additional steps that can be taken
00:04:43 are additional steps that can be taken at the premises to make them safe for example the screening of attendees additional cleaning that's been referred to staff rotation and so on it seems to
00:04:54 to staff rotation and so on it seems to us that
00:04:55 us that Corey needs to consider those matters tell the core processes once what is proposed and to listen carefully to any comments thirdly and more generally it
00:05:06 comments thirdly and more generally it seems highly unlikely for numerous reasons that the hearing is going to be able to proceed for very long if at all at this venue and so we need to consider
00:05:18 at this venue and so we need to consider what can be proposed by waive virtual remote hearings so that we can take instructions from our clients or any such proposals it does seem to us that
00:05:30 such proposals it does seem to us that the inquiry needs to consult with the core participants on this issue and to take careful account of their comments clearly in all of this the bereaved survivors and residents need to be
00:05:42 survivors and residents need to be consulted and they need to be at the center of the process this inquiry was set up to review an avoidable tragedy it should not itself be the source of
00:05:53 should not itself be the source of further of audible tragedy so I would finally urge you sir to listen carefully to what I've said and to take some time to respond simply to carry on with the
00:06:04 to respond simply to carry on with the next witness as if nothing is happening that is not an option in our respectful submission thank you well before you go mr. Williamson you won't be surprised to hear that we've been having these things
00:06:16 hear that we've been having these things very much in mind and of course we didn't know until quite late yesterday evening that mr. Fung was unwell and we still don't know as I said what the
00:06:28 still don't know as I said what the problem is but we have been giving consideration to other two means by which the hearings can continue at least for the time being one of which we might
00:06:40 for the time being one of which we might talk about in a moment which is limited attendance hearings could you help me first of all on your first point which is adumbrated but you passed over quite quickly that we couldn't continue
00:06:52 quickly that we couldn't continue without mr. fun well well it's a it's a panel of two which is now reduced to one now well will yes and no mr. Fung is
00:07:03 now well will yes and no mr. Fung is apparently we've been in contact with her this morning she's able to follow the proceedings on the live link she's able to communicate with us by email and imagine telephone if that weren't necessary are
00:07:16 telephone if that weren't necessary are you suggesting there's what I might call a constitutional problem here or is it just a matter of finding a sensible procedure which will enable her to participate the appropriate extent well
00:07:30 participate the appropriate extent well we obviously don't know nor indeed exactly what's wrong with my sister phone but clearly that she must be able to participate fully in the hearing and
00:07:44 to participate fully in the hearing and and if if that is if that if that is possible
00:07:50 possible and that may be a resolvable problem we have the live stream yes and I think I had a message from her this morning saying that she was intending to follow
00:08:02 saying that she was intending to follow proceedings on the live stream the live stream well the the recording can be viewed at any time from any location so the evidence can be reviewed except that
00:08:13 the evidence can be reviewed except that while relativity is down I don't think it's it's possible for elsewhere is it to review this I think I think I think the live stream is available on YouTube that's my understanding
00:08:27 I think it's dependent on relativity
00:08:38 do we know the answer to that has access to to the live stream yeah even their relative at his down thank you no she
00:08:50 relative at his down thank you no she can follow the proceedings and I mean I have myself been thinking about whether her presence at the hearing is essential to the continuation of the inquiry and
00:09:03 to the continuation of the inquiry and I'm provisionally coming to the view that providing we can be satisfied that she can view all the evidence and communicate with us if necessary that
00:09:16 communicate with us if necessary that would be adequate but if you want to say otherwise I'd welcome your views well the message that we got last night was simply and it was very late last night simply that mr. Pham was ill yeah of
00:09:27 simply that mr. Pham was ill yeah of course and Kurdi illness can take many many forms may be that she's being precautionary maybe she's actually [Music]
00:09:37 [Music] doesn't know so can I take it then that you would be minded to accept that if she provided she can and of course does
00:09:48 she provided she can and of course does view the evidence in its entirety that would I don't sir I'm receiving information this is not a criticism because obviously events are unfolding
00:10:00 because obviously events are unfolding almost faster than the he behind can catch up with but I'm receiving information on these I don't want to make policy on the move so I want to take instructions at that point but this is really a point of principle isn't it
00:10:11 is really a point of principle isn't it I mean in another context you might say that they've taken an arbitration panel is an example can't sit without a full complement of arbitrators we're not in
00:10:22 complement of arbitrators we're not in quite that situation my I sense from what you were saying that you would probably not argue that the same principle applied here
00:10:34 principle applied here well I didn't there's necessarily a technical point I think you really what I wanted to flush her I think I think the chat thing the test is were the magista furnace bake fit to proceed and
00:10:47 magista furnace bake fit to proceed and disable technologically to take as much part from wherever she is as she and if she were if she were not well enough
00:10:58 she were if she were not well enough today but could view evidence if any were given today tomorrow on the live stream would that not do well wouldn't be live stream because it would be recording but there said with respect I
00:11:11 recording but there said with respect I think that does slightly shade into the other points which as I was making is that if if the assumption is that we are going to carry on in the current set up
00:11:25 going to carry on in the current set up indefinitely that is one situation but that with respect seems highly unlikely yeah and say it's a one what I think our our
00:11:37 say it's a one what I think our our overall position is that there needs to be a a pause for reflection that may cause inconvenience to the next proposed witness a reflection and consultation and to decide on earth won't describe as
00:11:50 and to decide on earth won't describe as a medium term strategy do you want to make any suggestions at this stage about medium term strategy well I think I think I think we we need
00:12:03 well I think I think I think we we need to we need to know from you what was it what is technologically possible not from you personally but from your team and then we need to take instructions on that because there's obviously going to be a tension between health from the one
00:12:16 be a tension between health from the one participation I think one thing that certainly has been passing through my mind and is technologically feasible subject to people's agreement is that we hold limited attendance hearings in this
00:12:30 hold limited attendance hearings in this room but with attendance limited to those whose presence is essential which would part from the panel and counsel would be obviously be the witness we
00:12:42 would be obviously be the witness we but also all those who support our function with shorthand writer the ushers Texas in Seoul and now that might involve actively excluding most if not
00:12:56 involve actively excluding most if not all of the lawyers and all the public is that something you've given any thought to we haven't thought about the exclusion issue we have obviously thought about the remote working issue
00:13:08 thought about the remote working issue but depends what you mean by remote working well I I hadn't I haven't personally considered the option you've just put which is sort of a hybrid between carrying on a fully remote
00:13:19 between carrying on a fully remote hearing but I think there is I think there is a there is a potential route which involves taking as many people out of out of this building as possible
00:13:31 of out of this building as possible provide provided that those who are in dialogue with counts to clean car it can continue that dialogue and that that is going to need some adjustment to our methods of working for example we have
00:13:44 methods of working for example we have been considering document access and also as it were virtual access to mr. Melissa and his team for example one
00:13:55 Melissa and his team for example one might say when a witness and I'm just thinking out loud when a witness finishes the evidence that counsel to the inquiry wish to extract one might then have a slightly longer pause than
00:14:07 then have a slightly longer pause than we've had heretofore they could then be a telephone conference between example mr. Minnis and those interested in which they could be discussion of any additional points that needs to be cut I
00:14:18 additional points that needs to be cut I need sorry an additional ability to use of email and and so on for more formal communications all right thank you that's helpful is there anything else do you want to add to that no no but I
00:14:30 you want to add to that no no but I should say I should say my instructions and such are limited to the to the suggestion that we should all pause to reflect how we've moved forward so I I'm not in a position to commit my clients
00:14:42 not in a position to commit my clients to any particular particular way of moving forward and that's it does seem to us to involve a dialogue yes all right thank you now is there anyone else you'd like to
00:14:53 now is there anyone else you'd like to make any observations about this miss bar wise do you want to come say something of course come on I see just heard what my own friends said but for
00:15:06 heard what my own friends said but for our part we should very much prefer your hybrid option of continued participation by those who are able I'm willing to do so which hopefully includes yourself and
00:15:17 so which hopefully includes yourself and the accounts of the inquiry team and those staff that you might need to help you we appreciate obviously that you are and will be addressing how you continue
00:15:28 and will be addressing how you continue for our part we feel it's terribly important the inquiry does continue as best it is able but obviously bearing in mind the needs of health and safety your own included so we leave it in your
00:15:41 own included so we leave it in your hands but we should most welcome continued carrying on today as we are given we're all here the witnesses fear we wish to carry on we would suggest
00:15:52 we wish to carry on we would suggest that if it becomes necessary in due course even to cross examined by video link that might be possible and I'm sure that your minds will all be turning to those questions over the coming days but
00:16:05 those questions over the coming days but again we default to the position that we don't want to pause now unless it becomes absolutely inevitable so do I understand this correctly you don't wish to argue that the absence of mr. funs
00:16:21 to argue that the absence of mr. funs personal presence in the room is a fatal bar to continuing absolutely not sir I think her physical president president says respect her completely irrelevant
00:16:34 says respect her completely irrelevant because if she's able to participate with you it's a second best not that I have to view it on on the live link or recording but it's but it's reasonable
00:16:45 recording but it's but it's reasonable and she can see the documents that the operator puts ups you can see therefore there is no disadvantage save that you can't immediately communicate this and
00:16:56 can't immediately communicate this and and you wouldn't have any objection to what I've called limited attendance hearings no sir
00:17:03 we might need to have a discussion if we were to take that course as to how limited the attendance should be indeed it might be necessary to exclude actively some people who might be
00:17:16 actively some people who might be willing to be here but whose presence isn't really essential yes and I understand that sir and it may be probably would be that that is in fact a responsible course given we can all
00:17:27 responsible course given we can all participate and perhaps the only thing I would say is that if you were to adopt that course it might be wise to allow slightly longer breaks when you break the witness to facilitate email
00:17:39 the witness to facilitate email communication with counsel to the inquiry because obviously I'm conscious that's a difficult process well I gather it's been going on already it just needs to be a bit more refined it has indeed we have been bending ears but we'd like
00:17:53 we have been bending ears but we'd like the option to do that by email tied yes very good thank you very much does anybody else want to say anything about this no all right well now you all know
00:18:06 this no all right well now you all know I think that we have witnesses waiting to come on who've travelled from the north of England and that's something we need to take into consideration I'm
00:18:18 need to take into consideration I'm going to rise for a moment to just to consider what's the best way forward for today and once we've decided that we can then consider how we should take things
00:18:30 then consider how we should take things forward thereafter it won't come as a surprise to any of you to know that at least two people in this room might not be able to be here if the government
00:18:43 be able to be here if the government decides that over 70s should be banned from going out mr. Mansfield and I certainly fall into that category I don't think anyone else does but if you do well same problem all right I'm gonna
00:18:56 do well same problem all right I'm gonna rise for a few minutes now I think
00:27:25 well I'm grateful to Council for their submissions it seems to me that there are in principle there are three options one is to carry on regardless until
00:27:37 one is to carry on regardless until people become ill in which case we'd have to suspend the hearings anyway the second is to continue hearings as far as we can on a limited basis ensuring that
00:27:48 we can on a limited basis ensuring that the minimum number of people whose presence is necessary here and the third would be to suspend hearings altogether for an indefinite period the first is
00:28:01 for an indefinite period the first is obviously I think not a responsible course we have to have regard to the health of all those who take part in the hearings and support them we are however keen to continue making progress because
00:28:14 keen to continue making progress because we think it's important and in the public interest for us to do so and to lose as little time as we reasonably can so suspending the hearings at this stage
00:28:25 so suspending the hearings at this stage does not seem to be sensible if there's a reasonably satisfactory alternative we have already consulted core participants yesterday evening the solicitor to the
00:28:37 yesterday evening the solicitor to the inquiry wrote to the legal representatives of court participants setting out the different possibilities and inviting their views on the best way forward I think we asked to receive
00:28:50 forward I think we asked to receive responses by the end of today and in the light of those responses when we've received them we shall take a decision about what to do over the immediately
00:29:02 about what to do over the immediately coming days but it's right to say that we are giving serious consideration to what I identified as the second course which is limited attendance hearings
00:29:13 which is limited attendance hearings which subject to the agreement of all those who support the inquiry is that we should continue to take evidence from witnesses provided of course it's reasonable to ask the witnesses to come
00:29:25 reasonable to ask the witnesses to come here
00:29:25 here whilst excluding from the room all those whose presence is not strictly necessary as I say we shall not take a decision on that until we've received responses from
00:29:38 that until we've received responses from core participants but that is the way that mines are currently working at the moment as I mentioned earlier we have witnesses from the north of England who
00:29:50 witnesses from the north of England who come down to give evidence today and it would seem sensible to take their evidence today on the basis that although this will not be formally a limited attendance hearing in the sense
00:30:03 limited attendance hearing in the sense that we shall exclude actively those whose presence is not essential I would encourage anyone who is reluctant to be
00:30:14 encourage anyone who is reluctant to be here to go home or to go back to your office or wherever and watch the proceedings on the live link certainly you'll cause no offense by doing that and if the room empties when I finish
00:30:25 and if the room empties when I finish speaking I shall understand why on that basis we I've reached the conclusion that the best thing is to carry on on the basis that I've indicated today at
00:30:36 the basis that I've indicated today at the end of the day we shall review the position and decide whether to institute limited attendance hearings tomorrow on
00:30:47 limited attendance hearings tomorrow on the basis that we shall not allow in those who do not have all those whose attendance is not necessary for the purpose so just a minute
00:31:01 purpose so just a minute can we have a witness who's ready to come and give everything yes mr. chairman we do we have Kate Cooney from exo Kerr who is ready to give evidence right thank you and if anyone wants to
00:31:13 right thank you and if anyone wants to go and please feel free to do that
00:31:35 I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth
00:31:47 shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and the truth
00:31:52 truth thank you very much for scoonie sit down make yourself comfortable yes just a minute miss Coonan good morning and thank you very much for attending today to give evidence could we start please
00:32:04 to give evidence could we start please by your telling the chairman your full name it's Katherine Cooney that's Anne Cooney if you have any difficulty understanding the questions that I'm going to ask you and please say I can
00:32:15 going to ask you and please say I can either repeat the question or I can put the different it put the question in a in a different way and if you feel you need a break at any point please let me know one other thing please if you wouldn't mind please keeping your voice
00:32:26 wouldn't mind please keeping your voice up so that the transcribers you sit there to your right so it can get down what you're saying that would be very helpful now you've made one statement for the inquiry if I could please take you to that it's in the folder in front
00:32:38 you to that it's in the folder in front of you on the desk but it will appear also on the screen because we're going to be going to it and it's probably better to follow it on the screen but if you would prefer then please do follow it in the paper form in front of you
00:32:49 it in the paper form in front of you it's dated the 28th of September 2018 if we could just have that up please on the system
00:32:59 and could you please identify that formerly as your witness statement it is and could you please go to page 8 and
00:33:10 and could you please go to page 8 and you'll see there at the bottom of page 8 a signature over the date 28 September 2018 is that your signature it is and just for the record that is relativity reference ii x o0 0 0 0 1 5 9 0 mr.
00:33:26 reference ii x o0 0 0 0 1 5 9 0 mr. Coony have you read this statement recently I have yes thank you can you confirm that the contents are true yes have you discussed your evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming here this morning yes with
00:33:38 before coming here this morning yes with my right now there are a number of exhibits to the statement which is shown on the schedule which will just have up as well please that's id/ex 0 0 5 6
00:33:53 could you just confirm please for us that that is a list of the exhibits attached to your statement it is thank you very much now mr. Cooney I'm going to start if I may by asking you some
00:34:05 to start if I may by asking you some questions about your background and your experience all right and and I just get to take you that will summarize for you what you say in your statement you began I think working in the construction
00:34:16 I think working in the construction industry in the early 2000s yes yes and you've completed an undergraduate degree in French yes yes what was your first involvement in the construction industry
00:34:27 involvement in the construction industry I worked for some as an assistant surveyor for building surveying practices to start off with then I moved
00:34:38 practices to start off with then I moved into building control within a couple of years of that right and roughly what time did you well what year did you move into building control um it's December
00:34:50 into building control um it's December 2003 right now you've studied for a degree in building surveying which I think you completed in 2005 is that right yes where did you undertake that study was at the University of Salford
00:35:01 study was at the University of Salford Fulford and then I think you say that you had experience working in the building control departments at Lancaster Council yes for 18 months and then at Manchester City Council
00:35:12 and then at Manchester City Council that's kind I think you stayed at Manchester City Council for some six and a half years yes and then I think you moved to X over in 2011 that's correct right
00:35:21 right can I ask you what post did you hold within the Building Control Department of Manchester City Council at Manchester I started as a an assistant surveyor and
00:35:33 I started as a an assistant surveyor and then moved on to a full area surveyor right and how long were you in post as a full area severe I think I moved into
00:35:50 full area severe I think I moved into that post approximately 2007 and donates maybe okay so you had that role there for some three and a half to four years
00:36:01 for some three and a half to four years before me I'd have to check the date but was quite soon after I started and when you worked there were you a member of any professional bodies um mm not until 2008 when I joined the our ICS you
00:36:16 2008 when I joined the our ICS you joined the our ICS in 2008 are you still a member of the RSI yes now at paragraph 2 of your statement if we could just have that up please it's EXO zero zero
00:36:28 have that up please it's EXO zero zero zero zero one five nine zero page two paragraph two you say that your work in the Manchester Building Control Department including reviewing Building
00:36:40 Department including reviewing Building Control approvals applications for a variety of building regulations processes that's correct is it it is say can we take it that you became very familiar with Building Control approvals
00:36:52 familiar with Building Control approvals processes at least prior to you the time you left in 2011 and went to X / yes and can we also take it that you became very familiar with the building regulations and the related approved documents yes
00:37:06 and the related approved documents yes and did you specialize in fire safety as a building control officer no I didn't specialize until I moved to X / I see did you have some experience or exposure experience or exposure to
00:37:19 or exposure experience or exposure to fire safety when you were working as Building Control yes right can I take it that you are or became familiar with approved document b yes thank you now if you look at paragraph two point
00:37:32 now if you look at paragraph two point three of your statement towards the top of page two you say that in the second sentence while employed by x over you I obtained a Master of Science degree in fire and explosion engineering from the
00:37:44 fire and explosion engineering from the University of Leeds when did you complete that degree 2015 2015 so while you were working at X /
00:37:57 2015 so while you were working at X / yes C and was that a part-time course or a full-time course it was part-time over three years part-time over three years now at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower project which was the
00:38:09 the grenfell tower project which was the summer of 2012 were you based in x overs officers in Warrington I was you were it's not your permanent place of work yes right and at the time of your work
00:38:21 yes right and at the time of your work on the grenfell project in that year I think you were a senior consultant at X / is that right that's correct right I know now I think it principal consultant site X / yes I left the
00:38:32 consultant site X / yes I left the company last April but I was a principal before leaving I see and when and when were you appointed a principle within xx
00:38:46 were you appointed a principle within xx I would have to check the dates but I think it was 2015 maybe early 2016 in that six-month period after
00:38:59 in that six-month period after graduating I yes I see okay and can you tell us where you work now please I work in Lancaster for an approved inspector company so it's actually in
00:39:13 inspector company so it's actually in building control mm-hmm can you just help us understand the hierarchy of positions within X over so for example
00:39:24 positions within X over so for example when you were a senior consultant would you be directly well who would you be directly answerable to and so the the the structure was essentially there was
00:39:36 the structure was essentially there was a senior consultant above that was a principal consultant and then associate and then director so I was answerable to anybody who was I see okay and who would
00:39:52 anybody who was I see okay and who would be junior to you um consultant engineers and graduates I see okay can you explain what your role as a senior consultant Attucks over typically
00:40:04 senior consultant Attucks over typically involved typically it was looking at designs for fire safety where there may be slight variations or variations from
00:40:16 be slight variations or variations from approved document b or other guidance where an alternative approach might be desired
00:40:23 desired and i think you were uh you were certified under Warrington fires or x over Warrington fires fire risk Assessor certification scheme or fracks aren't
00:40:34 certification scheme or fracks aren't you yes and yeah I think that's a certificate number fr a 24 I think so issued on first issued on the 7th of August 2012 is that that's that sounds
00:40:46 August 2012 is that that's that sounds about right but do we have a document to that effect but perhaps I'll share it to you just so you can confirm it it's inq 0 0 0 1 1 3 3 1 please
00:40:59 can you identify that as your frack certificate issued on the 7th of 2012 yes
00:41:15 yes yes sorry yes okay thank you in order to obtain that certification did you have to be assessed yes I did and who by their the Assessors were external
00:41:28 who by their the Assessors were external to Warrington fire so they brought in people who who who dedicated it was an independent assessment if you will from
00:41:39 independent assessment if you will from it's over I can't remember the names of the guys that were there thinking that one of the Assessors was a annex Fire
00:41:50 one of the Assessors was a annex Fire Rescue chief from kind of high level fire service at Manchester right I called Andy Howard who chose the
00:42:04 called Andy Howard who chose the Assessors to conduct that assessment I don't know I mean was it an x over choice as to who to go to to conduct it or was there a system I don't know you
00:42:15 or was there a system I don't know you don't know what did they assess you on do you remember and they assessed me on general fire safety design the regulatory reform order and various risk assessment
00:42:30 order and various risk assessment approaches do they assess you on ADB or the building regulations more generally um not specifically to to the building review that's part of a part of a larger package of our fire safety and all that
00:42:44 package of our fire safety and all that you will be expected to have to Tippie facts registers I see did you actually look at ADB and building regulations more generally as part of your master's
00:42:55 ADB and the building regulations are kind of the baseline if you will they they are the deemed to satisfy the the approved document is deemed to satisfy the regulations we looked at it but the
00:43:09 the regulations we looked at it but the degree was more technical in terms of the engineering side of things and just one more question on on this document you could see that the certificate was
00:43:20 you could see that the certificate was issued on the 7th of August 2012 how long before that date do you remember you undertook the assessment I don't know okay I'm not going to turn to your
00:43:32 know okay I'm not going to turn to your role at grenfell in the project if you look please at paragraph three point three of your statement on page two you say that Claire Barker a principal
00:43:44 say that Claire Barker a principal consultant at x over tasked you with producing the existing fire safety strategy or the existing FS r which i can we can call it for the grünfeld
00:43:55 can we can call it for the grünfeld tower building yes now can you remember when you receive that instruction it will have been in the early August I
00:44:07 will have been in the early August I think more like July of 2012 right I remember specifically now your draft existing fire safety strategy which
00:44:19 existing fire safety strategy which we'll look at in some detail shortly was dated the 16th of August 2012 do you remember even roughly how long before that you remember being obstructed by miss
00:44:32 you remember being obstructed by miss Barker to produce it it was a it was a small amount of time I remember it was quite we were asked to produce a a document under fairly short order I
00:44:45 document under fairly short order I think it was a matter of three maybe four weeks Sam so accurate as I can be I'm afraid all right well let's look at some documents and first please can you
00:44:56 some documents and first please can you be shown EXO zero zero zero zero one six one three
00:45:07 and if we look at the top email and then the second one down on page one the top email is an email to you from dr. Barker
00:45:19 email is an email to you from dr. Barker Claire Barker on the 7th of August 2012 you see that yes she sent you it seems some documents just you see the
00:45:30 some documents just you see the attachments and underneath that she said see below and underneath that the below email is from Bruce owns at Studio E on the 30th of July 2012 - Clair Barker and
00:45:44 the 30th of July 2012 - Clair Barker and he says dear Claire I wanted to thank you for coming to the project meeting last Thursday I appreciate that it can seem like you occupy a very small part of the agenda and therefore an expensive
00:45:56 of the agenda and therefore an expensive use of your time but Thursday was the first time since May that we've managed to assemble the whole team including the client and the contractor and it was Anna valuable prepping briefing for everyone I would not expect to need another meeting with EXO but before we
00:46:08 another meeting with EXO but before we submit for planning and possibly not again until we're in negotiation with Building Control and he says please see attach the specification for the smoke exhaust straight ventilation to the residential lobbies I'm more than happy
00:46:19 residential lobbies I'm more than happy to continue working with you in Warrington but if someone else in London is going to pick it up we would like to know soon as possible please could he get back to me now I've ready the full email just to try and prompt your recollection it looks from this that
00:46:30 recollection it looks from this that your first involvement is this email from Claire Barker to you on the 7th of August attaching the documents and forwarding mr. census email of the 30th
00:46:41 forwarding mr. census email of the 30th of July is that right do you think it seems to be right yes right so can we proceed on the basis that this date the 7th of August was the first time you
00:46:52 7th of August was the first time you became involved yes okay now what was the context in which dr. Barker sent you this email and dr. Baca asked me to
00:47:04 this email and dr. Baca asked me to prepare a draft report for the existing building and and essentially to start
00:47:15 building and and essentially to start the process of the existing fire safety strategy and at the time Claire actually sacked the jacent to me so we would have discussed this you know the the the
00:47:28 discussed this you know the the the parameters for that and the information that we might have had but that's essentially how it started yes I see so
00:47:39 essentially how it started yes I see so she sent you this email on the seventh with virtually no information in it other than what's attached so it was there a conversation between you and dr. Baca on or prior to the 7th of August
00:47:52 Baca on or prior to the 7th of August before this emails were sent to you I I would imagine so though I can't recall any specific conversations at that time I see did she give you a document when she first asked you to prepare the
00:48:04 she first asked you to prepare the existing fire safety strategy which set out what she wanted you to do I don't recall specific documents from that time you know that the information that I had
00:48:17 you know that the information that I had was very limited so I contacted the architects myself okay well we'll come
00:48:28 architects myself okay well we'll come back to that in a minute can we just proceed through the documents and see how we go and could you please be shown e^x zero zero zero zero zero one six one eight
00:48:42 now this is an email from Bruce owns to Claire Barker on the 30th of July and the second one down is the email I've
00:48:53 the second one down is the email I've just shown you which relates to the specification to the smoke exhaust and ventilation to the residential lobbies we've just looked at that now let's look at her response to Bruce owns the same
00:49:04 at her response to Bruce owns the same day the top 30th of July 2012 you see that I did good afternoon Bruce and then just looking at the third paragraph if we can we may come back to
00:49:15 paragraph if we can we may come back to the second one but look at the third one she says in terms of allocating resources to this project I'm happy to work on the fire strategy for the existing Grenfell tower from the
00:49:27 existing Grenfell tower from the Warrington office and will aim to get the report to you before the deadline of the 16th of August you see that yes I'll come back to deadlines in a moment I
00:49:39 come back to deadlines in a moment I want to ask you a question about that but before I do I just want to show you another document a little bit later can you please go back to the document we
00:49:50 you please go back to the document we were looking at before EXO zero zero zero zero one six one three this is the email where she sent you the first of
00:50:03 email where she sent you the first of the emails of the 30th of June namely Bruce Saenz email to dr. Barker but not her response back to him we looked at that a minute ago so you've got I think all the documents I needed to see my
00:50:14 all the documents I needed to see my question is what information or briefing did dr. Barker give you other than what is set out in the email from dr. stone that mr. stones to dr. Barker and the
00:50:27 that mr. stones to dr. Barker and the attachments to the email to you from dr. Barker other than the information that's already attached to the email I don't recall
00:50:38 recall I do recall reading a document in relation to the ventilation which was a
00:50:49 relation to the ventilation which was a proposed document but other than that I don't recall reading anything more specific so I would say that I don't
00:51:00 specific so I would say that I don't recall right particular documents from that time do you remember whether dr. Barker sent you her response to Bruce sounds of the 30th of July which we've just looked at which said that she will
00:51:12 just looked at which said that she will provide the report by the deadline of the 16th of August I don't recall whether she sent me the email I do recall that there was a deadline you do when did she tell you that do you think I would be I would be
00:51:25 that do you think I would be I would be guessing but I would assume that it was at that time around that time that she passed over the work right I see and did you tell you why there was a deadline of
00:51:36 you tell you why there was a deadline of the 16th of August um not that I can recall no right did you feel that you were on sir under some kind of pressure of time to produce the fire strategy that dr. Barker at ASCII asked you to do
00:51:53 I suppose it became the priority at that time in terms of pressure not specific not particularly no more than now and can I ask you then
00:52:08 no more than now and can I ask you then to get back to the email we looked at a minute ago EXO zero zero zero zero one six one eight and we can see from dr. Parker's
00:52:20 eight and we can see from dr. Parker's email to Bruce owns dated 30th of July at 328 maybe the top one on that page I showed you the third paragraph but if we look at the second paragraph she says
00:52:33 look at the second paragraph she says with regard to the two fee proposals that were issued by x over we have received an email today from David Hale at Apple Yards accepting the fees for the upgrade of the building and she gives a reference I telephoned him to
00:52:46 gives a reference I telephoned him to tell him he had accepted the wrong fee and he's going to email us the right fee acceptance to ask tomorrow so once that arrives we can get started you see that and you may not have seen this email at
00:52:58 and you may not have seen this email at the time mr. Cooney but did you know who Apple yards were I didn't who didn't who did you think was the client for the purposes of the report at which dr. Barker had asked you to prepare the
00:53:11 Barker had asked you to prepare the architectural practice studio a studio we did you think they might have a client yes I would have that there would have been a longer chain yes but the
00:53:23 have been a longer chain yes but the contact that I was given was with Studio E did you take any steps ever to find out who studio East client was um no I not that I recall no we did not be important to you to
00:53:35 no we did not be important to you to know that and at at that particular time then I whether it was one client or another client would not be material to to my at this time but once we actually
00:53:49 to my at this time but once we actually got into the into the work itself then I was aware that Casey TMO with a client do you remember when that was or how far into the work that was it would have been
00:54:01 the work that was it would have been shortly after we started so that was gathering information essentially so I would have been yes I said when we come to look at the existing fire safety
00:54:13 to look at the existing fire safety strategy which you drafted we can see that the client at the bottom of each page is Casey TMO Kensington and Chelsea TMO to be accurate so that was that to be clear that was was it your
00:54:24 be clear that was was it your understanding throughout the time you were actually preparing the report yes don't I was working with the studio here as I see and within xover who did you
00:54:37 as I see and within xover who did you report to during the time you did the work dr. Barker anybody else at the time no you say at the time now rather so it
00:54:50 no you say at the time now rather so it was quite a short period of time so with it being in the middle of the holiday season there were stats on holiday so I will I will come back to Claire on I'm
00:55:04 will I will come back to Claire on I'm very sad right items I don't I don't recall speaking to anybody else other than members of staff in the London
00:55:15 than members of staff in the London office about it so James I don't recall speaking to mr. Ashton right you
00:55:26 speaking to mr. Ashton right you mentioned James moment ago is that James Lee it is yes okay we'll come to to look at his involvement shortly can I take you back please - your witness statement and go to page two the XO zero zero zero
00:55:40 and go to page two the XO zero zero zero zero one five nine zero page two and shall we look together please of paragraph three point three you say in the second sentence that you were based
00:55:51 the second sentence that you were based in the Warrington office and you say you believe you were chosen to carry out the work in the Warrington office because the London office was not able to resource it at the time because of its
00:56:03 resource it at the time because of its workload
00:56:03 workload see that was it at the time unusual within X over to have consultants prepare fire safety strategy reports for projects that were not geographically
00:56:15 projects that were not geographically close by yes there was quite a lot of office interworking but I think this particular project came to Warrington because of the time of year so can we
00:56:29 because of the time of year so can we take it from that answer that normally the London office would have done this report yes yes did Xavier have any internal policies or guidelines at this
00:56:42 internal policies or guidelines at this time which guided staff in positions such as yours as to how to carry out a fire strategy report for an existing building I I'm not I don't know one for
00:56:54 building I I'm not I don't know one for us that specific type of work there were more generic than that so it would have been fine safety strategy generally I
00:57:05 been fine safety strategy generally I see so there was a policy or guidance within X over for doing fire strategy to fire strategy reports are just not for existing buildings attacked yes I see and what about guidance or thought for
00:57:16 and what about guidance or thought for these obtaining of information from the building owner or responsible person not that I'm aware of how much experience of
00:57:27 that I'm aware of how much experience of preparing fire safety strategy reports for existing buildings did you have prior to doing the one you did for grethel tower in August 2012 in the
00:57:40 grethel tower in August 2012 in the format of a fire safety strategy I wouldn't be able to give you a number a small number of existing fire strategies within the workload that I'd done since
00:57:52 within the workload that I'd done since joining X over right so you had done some before I think so yes had you ever done a fire safety strategy report for a high-rise residential block
00:58:04 I don't know the answer I would be surprised if it was if I hadn't but I haven't checked at the time of you were
00:58:15 haven't checked at the time of you were given the role by dr. Barker what CPD or other professional development had you done to guide you on carrying out the Grenville tower instruction and in terms
00:58:27 Grenville tower instruction and in terms of CPD it's it's a process of many years of development with with refreshes through the CPD rather than learning
00:58:38 through the CPD rather than learning just as a as a module obviously having worked in the industry for a number of years and in a in quite a densely populated urban environment in
00:58:49 populated urban environment in Manchester I was involved with both looking and assessing and inspecting a number of residential buildings 80
00:59:00 number of residential buildings 80 metres and would you agree with this proposition that a fire safety engineer sets the agenda regarding the life safety requirements for a project I
00:59:13 safety requirements for a project I probably wouldn't couch it in that way I would say that the the regulations sets the agenda and for a building such as this it's really making sure that the
00:59:26 this it's really making sure that the principle elements the key elements are are present and that the design meets with the guidance would you agree with this proposition that standard setting
00:59:37 this proposition that standard setting is a key component of the work needed from a practicing fire safety engineer
00:59:44 yes a standard setting is a key component of the work needed from a practicing for fire safety engineers come on up briefly with you please at
00:59:56 come on up briefly with you please at precisely what a fire safety strategy is this may seem a rather simplistic question but let me try it anyway can I ask you please to be shown BSI zero zero
01:00:08 ask you please to be shown BSI zero zero zero zero one seven one six now this is a British standard published
01:00:19 now this is a British standard published document pd7 974 from 2002 entitled application of fire safety engineering principles to the design of buildings part naught guide to design framework
01:00:30 part naught guide to design framework and fire safety engineering procedures see that yes are you familiar with this document ma'am where are you familiar with it do you think in August 2012 yes
01:00:41 with it do you think in August 2012 yes let's look then at paragraph three point one six on page seven please this defines if you look at the top of the page a fire safety strategy as a
01:00:55 page a fire safety strategy as a combination of fire safety measures that are that has been shown by reference to prescriptive codes or a fire engineering study to be capable of satisfying the specified fire safety objectives you see
01:01:08 specified fire safety objectives you see that yes does that reflect your understanding of what a fire safety strategy was as at August 2012 yes it reflects your understanding as at that time does it yes yes now let's look at
01:01:22 time does it yes yes now let's look at page 44 please which is part nine point seven on page 44 itself that says towards the top of page 44 fire safety
01:01:36 towards the top of page 44 fire safety strategy the fire safety strategy for the building will be based on the successful trial design and is likely to comprise a range of physical fire safety measures and management procedures a
01:01:47 measures and management procedures a description of these measures should be provided together with performance specifications and any recommended deviations from the relevant system codes does that reflect your understanding as it was at August 2012
01:02:01 understanding as it was at August 2012 yes it's a very all-encompassing definition and the the the range of of of work that
01:02:15 and the the the range of of of work that goes into fire safety strategies is bespoke to a particular building so if I could give you an example a building
01:02:26 could give you an example a building which has no management presence but may have ad-hoc visits such as a high-rise residential the management procedures
01:02:37 residential the management procedures are important but in terms of the fire safety design of the building that they are kind of open overlapping but separate I see I see
01:02:49 separate I see I see can I ask you to look at page 10 then please which is back in the document earlier on and let's go to paragraph four point three point six from the foot
01:03:01 four point three point six from the foot of the page it says the accuracy of many FSE calculations is unknown that's a quotation because it's one of a number
01:03:12 quotation because it's one of a number of common misconceptions that you can see the title of at the top of a third of the way down that page 4.3 you see that yes and one of the common misconceptions is the accuracy of many
01:03:23 misconceptions is the accuracy of many FSC calculations is unknown and then it goes on to say the accuracy of the calculation procedures presented in the PDS a supporting BS nine seven nine
01:03:35 PDS a supporting BS nine seven nine seven four two thousand and one etc will generally be sufficiently accurate for engineering design purposes if they are used within their limits of applicability and then this however the
01:03:47 applicability and then this however the old adage of garbage in garbage out applies and in most cases uncertainties in the calculation procedures will be outweighed by any errors in the initial assumptions for example the rate of fire
01:03:58 assumptions for example the rate of fire growth were you conscious in August 2012 of that principle in general terms in general terms I was I
01:04:12 general terms in general terms I was I did the the PD seven nine seven four series of documents which this is one of our more on the Java said the the engineering
01:04:23 Java said the the engineering calculation side of fire engineering whereas the codes are more on the fire safety guidance side if he will so that
01:04:34 safety guidance side if he will so that there is a slight there's quite a large difference between the two yes I follow that but in general terms can we take it that the general principle garbage in garbage out and what that means was
01:04:46 garbage out and what that means was something that you would have had in mind when preparing your existing fire safety strategy report for Grenville tower and it's not something I would have had in mind because we didn't use
01:04:59 have had in mind because we didn't use that fire safety engineering principles for the strategy so fire safety engineering using these codes use specific empirical calculations to work things out like the rate of fire growth
01:05:11 things out like the rate of fire growth or the time safe time for evacuation etc etc whereas a guidance based approach wouldn't go into the calculation side of things there's no there are no garbage
01:05:28 things there's no there are no garbage in garbage out kind of parameters for it because you're not actually colouring out calculations as such for the vast majority of the work it's it's guidance
01:05:39 majority of the work it's it's guidance based so a DB based essentially where the guide but where the guidance required you to make calculations if I would have done yes can I then take you
01:05:50 would have done yes can I then take you to the FIA or fire industry association guidance note which addresses the scope of works for a fire engineer that's inq 0 0 0 1 1 2 1 9 please are you familiar
01:06:06 0 0 0 1 1 2 1 9 please are you familiar with this document I am yes you are now to be fair to you this is a document that was produced by the FIA in May 2015 which was towards the end of X overs
01:06:17 which was towards the end of X overs overall involvement with the grenfell tower project and three years or so have some two and a half years or so after your involvement in the existing fire strategy for the building so good
01:06:29 strategy for the building so good in in time context but you're you're familiar with it and you have you read it before and I have read it I've not ready cover to cover but I okay would you accept that
01:06:40 cover but I okay would you accept that the FIA guidance note reflects common practice in the construction industry prior before May 2015
01:06:51 prior before May 2015 it's much more structured I know would be the answer no it's it's one way of following guidance I suppose I see okay
01:07:03 following guidance I suppose I see okay well let's see how we we go with this can I just ask you then to turn to page 4 of this FIA guidance
01:07:14 and under general you can see it says the fire engineer's overall role will be to provide advice in relation to the fire safety aspects of the design in
01:07:25 fire safety aspects of the design in order to provide reasonable confidence that the design that is developed as well as the completed building should achieve an acceptable standard of fire safety comply with the clients objectives and meet all relevant legal
01:07:37 objectives and meet all relevant legal fire safety requirements see that would you agree that as at August 2012 this was an accurate summary of the overall role of a fire engineer yes can I invite
01:07:51 role of a fire engineer yes can I invite you just also to consider with the contents of this document as a whole reflect good practice or best practice perhaps of a fire safety engineer as
01:08:03 perhaps of a fire safety engineer as that August 2012 I would say it was best practice best practice can I ask you to look at page 4 at the bottom that sets
01:08:16 look at page 4 at the bottom that sets out some bullet points do you see yes it says the fire strategy should cover all relevant fire safety design issues in particular and then there are six sorry seven of them design location and
01:08:28 seven of them design location and protection of escape routes identification and specification of all fire safety systems that are required surface spread of flame requirements for surface materials structural fire resistance requirements fire compartment
01:08:40 resistance requirements fire compartment ation requirements included fire stopping and cavity barriers external fire spread that access and facilities for fire services looking at that list
01:08:52 for fire services looking at that list and recognizing that you weren't preparing the fire strategy for the refurbishment work miss Kooning we understand that entirely would you accept that any fire strategy for a building as existing would need to cover
01:09:05 building as existing would need to cover all of those elements yes they they are the standard we want to be five requirements the building regulation yes would you agree that a fire strategy
01:09:20 yes would you agree that a fire strategy for a building an existing building is an important source of narrative information about how to keep people in that building safe in accordance with the rro the regulatory reform fire
01:09:34 the rro the regulatory reform fire safety order I think it's part of the job it really depends on the focus I
01:09:46 job it really depends on the focus I suppose it the existing fire safety strategy focuses on the design of the building brings in a sufficient amount
01:09:58 building brings in a sufficient amount of management so that the building can be appropriately used so in general I
01:10:10 be appropriately used so in general I would agree but with some caveats right I'm just trying to understand the caveats you say I think it's part of the job and depends on the focus can you just explain to me again what the
01:10:22 just explain to me again what the caveats are so obviously every building is different and every strategy that is written has its own bespoke requirements
01:10:34 written has its own bespoke requirements when you're looking at an existing fire safety strategy for a building that has been up for a time which predates modern day guidance then there is some
01:10:45 day guidance then there is some assessment that you need to consider to see whether you meeting those objectives or not and that kind of would would
01:10:56 or not and that kind of would would change the emphasis in certain parts more than in another document for an existing fire safety strategy it depends on the building essentially I see does that mean it correct me if
01:11:10 I see does that mean it correct me if I've misunderstood your evidence that where the existing building doesn't meet modern-day guidance then that's something that the building owner should
01:11:21 something that the building owner should understand and know about and take into account and formula when formulating a strategy to comply with the RRA I think
01:11:34 strategy to comply with the RRA I think when the when the strategy is retrospective so we're looking at an existing structure exit existing conditions within a building absolutely they need to understand if those
01:11:45 they need to understand if those conditions are not safe well don't meet the threshold if you will the the benchmark of modern guidance however it's not just a gap analysis between how
01:11:56 it's not just a gap analysis between how it was construction and what would today be acceptable it's is that condition safe essentially yes I see will you also agree that the fire strategy is the
01:12:07 agree that the fire strategy is the primary and definitive source for the specification of the relevant performance criteria that would enable a building to be demonstrated as complying with Part B of the building regulations
01:12:22 yes I would agree insofar as those performance requirements are high level
01:12:34 right when you say at heart our high-level what sort of performance requirements would not be high level which would mean that you wouldn't have
01:12:46 which would mean that you wouldn't have to or wouldn't be able to enable a building to be demonstrated as compliant with Part B so taking the existing fire safety strategy where elements aren't
01:12:58 safety strategy where elements aren't known or certain materials construction methods etc aren't aren't evident then it would it wouldn't be wise to to you
01:13:13 it would it wouldn't be wise to to you know look at particular elements individually within the building different materials but as a specification under British standards for example then that's the kind of level I'm talking about when I talk about high level we wouldn't go into a
01:13:26 about high level we wouldn't go into a mere standards and things like that - - to specify things - strategy no but just so I understand where you thought that
01:13:37 so I understand where you thought that an element was unknown but we're complying with that whether element needed to comply with the building regulations would you point that out to the client normally in your report yes
01:13:49 the client normally in your report yes and would you also agree that a retrospective fire strategy for an existing building provides an opportunity for the client to
01:14:00 opportunity for the client to investigate fully the current condition of the building and the guidance regulations to which it was originally designed in order to provide a
01:14:11 designed in order to provide a qualitative and also a quantitative risk assessment of the fire risks that might result from any differences between the original design and the current guidance I would agree generally I wouldn't agree
01:14:26 I would agree generally I wouldn't agree that it is a fire risk assessment that's something quite separate in my understanding would you agree also that a retrospective first strategy such that
01:14:40 a retrospective first strategy such that I have just asked you about would allow the
01:14:43 the person who was responsible under the rro to understand their building thoroughly and thereby know what general fire precautions might be required in order to comply when we're looking at a
01:14:58 to comply when we're looking at a building from a point of view of the design and that's that's what would be understood by the client I think if we then go into management and other types
01:15:09 then go into management and other types of elements within that it's kind of becoming a hybrid between a fire risk assessment and a fire safety strategy which which isn't a typical fire safety
01:15:23 which which isn't a typical fire safety strategy really it's it focuses on the design of the building rather than a risk assessment which would look at the building in use etc yes I see I'm just
01:15:34 building in use etc yes I see I'm just on that can we take it that in order to prepare a full and proper existing fire safety strategy you would need to
01:15:45 safety strategy you would need to understand and have read the virus because it will the most up-to-date fire risk assessment for the building it's it's one of the documents that you would would require yes yes can I then turn to
01:16:00 would require yes yes can I then turn to a slightly different topic which is the fee proposal and the scope of work which is at TMO one zero zero three seven seven two one dated the 11th of June
01:16:13 seven two one dated the 11th of June 2012
01:16:17 now you can see that this is an x over document sent to mr. Sainz Studio II on the 11th of June 2012 and have you seen
01:16:28 the 11th of June 2012 and have you seen this document before oh yes if you go to page 3 you'll see that it's signed by James Lee consultant @ x over and was
01:16:40 James Lee consultant @ x over and was reviewed by terry ashton associate you see that yes
01:16:46 can I ask you to go back to page 1 and look at the project brief then please it says underneath project brief the Grenfell tower is an existing residential building in London X / Warrington fire has been invited to
01:16:58 Warrington fire has been invited to produce a fire safety strategy report for the existing condition of the building this fee proposal covers the production of a review of the existing fire safety arrangements for the building you see that and if you look a
01:17:14 building you see that and if you look a little bit further down you could have you see there's company profile and on page 2 you can see there's proposed scope of the work we'll come back to that in a moment and before I do can I
01:17:25 that in a moment and before I do can I take you into your statement and look please with me at paragraph 3 point 4 on page 2 you say they're at three point four I do not recall whether I saw the
01:17:37 four I do not recall whether I saw the fee proposal at the time although I know that it covers one means of escape to fire safety systems three any smoke ventilation provided and for access and facilities for the fire service you see
01:17:49 facilities for the fire service you see that doing the best you can when do you think that you first saw this document
01:17:59 if you want me to put it back up on the screen and know it I obviously I've seen these documents as part of the preparing for the inquiry
01:18:12 part of the preparing for the inquiry and and discussing with solicitors post post buyer I I don't recall seeing it at
01:18:23 post buyer I I don't recall seeing it at the time right I'm not sure when I first saw it perhaps around the witness statement I'm if you hadn't seen it at
01:18:34 statement I'm if you hadn't seen it at the time how would you know what was being asked of you by dr. Barker um I was asked to do my existing fire safety strategy on an existing high-rise
01:18:46 strategy on an existing high-rise residential building with some documentation clear sucked adjacent to me so we will have had discussions around what was expected at the time I
01:18:57 around what was expected at the time I just it's so long ago I can't recall - don't call specific conversations you feel that particular time for term certainly we will have discussed what
01:19:10 certainly we will have discussed what was required right if you hadn't seen it at the time can you help me how would you have known what the scope of the work was for the report that you were to
01:19:21 work was for the report that you were to produce um again I'm I'm assuming here that it was laid out in front from Claire and in the documents which were -
01:19:35 Claire and in the documents which were - to start to inform the process of of preparing the document the strategy itself
01:19:42 itself did you ask dr. Barker to give you the fee proposal which contained this gate network so that you can see in black and white what it was um I don't I don't
01:19:53 white what it was um I don't I don't recall I
01:19:54 recall I genuinely don't how would you normally be told or at the time how would you have normally have been told the scope of work for a report that you'd been instructed to prepare typically we would
01:20:07 instructed to prepare typically we would sit down and and go through the project essentially of what was what was being done so that's gathering all the
01:20:18 done so that's gathering all the information and looking at looking how we're going to actually set out the works and what we needed to do to do that
01:20:30 that the the feed proposal in in some instances yes that provides a baseline but obviously you you build on that it's kind of understanding from looking at
01:20:43 kind of understanding from looking at the project documentation as well now you say typically we would sit down and go through the project essentially of what was being done was that done on
01:20:54 of what was being done was that done on this occasion with dr. Barker and I would assume so considering the lack of emails etc that there is and the fact that clare site adjacent to me so but I
01:21:07 that clare site adjacent to me so but I genuinely don't recall the contents of conversations I know that we we will have had them closely together on several projects so that's right as our
01:21:23 several projects so that's right as our usual so again doing the best you can with your recollection and I don't want to put words in your mouth but do you recall anything of her explaining the
01:21:35 recall anything of her explaining the scope of the project to you yes I yes and I know we had conversations about it I just don't know specific content of them you know as a I know we discussed
01:21:47 them you know as a I know we discussed various matters but I couldn't recall very specifics in any rate you don't recall being shown the fee proposal no I don't right now staying with paragraph three point four of your statement you
01:21:59 three point four of your statement you go on to say I was not involved in deciding on this scope but it is a fairly it is a basic standard agenda to include an fr strategy report for an existing bill building each item would
01:22:12 existing bill building each item would be broken into a number of sub verses depending on the nature of the building which was being reported on what would the specific sub issues be for a residential high-rise building so it
01:22:27 residential high-rise building so it would be broken down essentially into the the five key elements of five safety regulation so for example we would look
01:22:38 regulation so for example we would look at travel distances compartment ation [Music]
01:22:47 [Music] firefighting facilities and that would include 500 stairs dry risers lifts etc and then within the compartment ation
01:22:59 and then within the compartment ation side of things we'd look at things like cavity barriers and requirements for various separations in the building lobbies etc if you go to page 2 of the
01:23:15 lobbies etc if you go to page 2 of the fee proposal please which is back on page 2 or TMO one zero zero three three seventy one can you see the scope of the
01:23:28 seventy one can you see the scope of the work that the project would include you see that do you see that now yes the site visit and then the compilation of a fire safety strategy report you see that
01:23:41 fire safety strategy report you see that and then a few paragraphs down in fact the the last but one paragraph before fire engineering team it says in developing the report we would use our expert knowledge of fire safety design codes the report for the building will
01:23:53 codes the report for the building will consider the following items the means of escape fire safety systems any smoke ventilation provided and access and facilities for the fire service you see that yes so those would those be included in your basic sub issues yes
01:24:09 included in your basic sub issues yes did you when you did your work check that you had covered all of those in in as far as it was able to do so with the
01:24:21 as far as it was able to do so with the information we had at the time the document that we produced was only a draft so there will have been extra
01:24:35 draft so there will have been extra things to put in but at the time yes I think they were rather covered okay so when in your statement you refer to it is a basic stand that agenda to include
01:24:46 is a basic stand that agenda to include in a fire strategy report for an existing building are you referring to those four bullet points as the basic standard agenda yes so you were used you
01:25:02 standard agenda yes so you were used you remember content to proceed to draft the fire safety strategy without seeing the fee proposal because you were confident that the basic standard agenda had been set out in it and that's what you would
01:25:13 set out in it and that's what you would follow I would call I'd kind of call directly but yes you know I know you didn't draft the proposal and I you may
01:25:25 didn't draft the proposal and I you may or may not have seen it at the time of your work you can't remember so I bear that in mind but I still want to ask you one or two questions about it now first um can I ask you to look at
01:25:38 now first um can I ask you to look at the proposed scope of work on page two where we are where it says under the heading the aim of the work do you see it says the aim of the work would be the
01:25:49 it says the aim of the work would be the production of a retrospective fire safety strategy report for the existing building this report will serve to inform the fire safety risk assessment and fire risk management plan for the
01:26:00 and fire risk management plan for the building the design of the building will be assessed against relevant design codes relating to the statutory requirements of the on the design of the building under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 and also under
01:26:13 fire safety order 2005 and also under Section 20 of the London building ax amendment act 1939 if the building falls within the size criteria specified by that legislation now I've shown you
01:26:24 by that legislation now I've shown you all of that because I have a number of questions about it but the first question is can you explain to us what you meant or what would have been meant by a retrospective fire safety strategy report so retrospective being that it is
01:26:39 report so retrospective being that it is based on an existing building so we are looking at the fire safety design for a building that is already there I see and
01:26:53 building that is already there I see and when it says the report will serve to inform the fire safety risk assessment and fire risk management plan did you have in mind that this would this document that you would produce would then be given by the building owner to
01:27:06 then be given by the building owner to its own fire risk Assessor in order to take forward what had to be done to comply with the rro um not entirely No so can you explain and
01:27:17 not entirely No so can you explain and again I know you didn't draft it but can you explain what you would have understood had you looked at this document at the time if you did by the what words serve to inform the fire safety risk assessment and fire risk
01:27:29 safety risk assessment and fire risk management plan for the building um when it when a fire suppression is used them for a new build then the the purpose of
01:27:40 for a new build then the the purpose of the strategy really is to set out the fire safety design and all the component parts of that building as a as a new structure and because at the end of that
01:27:54 structure and because at the end of that construction process a fire safety risk assessment would be required it with them follow that it would inform a fire safety risk assessment for for a new
01:28:06 safety risk assessment for for a new build however with a existing building where there will already be a fire risk assessment this kind of backwards if you will its retrospective then I think the
01:28:19 will its retrospective then I think the the fire safety risk assessment also informs the the fire safety retrospective strategy so one serves to support the other
01:28:31 so one serves to support the other really they should really be saying the same things that it would be right then that you're looking in doing your report to assist the building owner in its
01:28:42 to assist the building owner in its management plan as well as looking at any design questions I think with an existing strategy the the the focus is
01:28:55 existing strategy the the the focus is more on the design for so in in the context of the Grunfeld strategy it was
01:29:06 context of the Grunfeld strategy it was it was really an informative piece of work to look at the fire safety design of the building for the design team rather than any holistic fire safety
01:29:21 rather than any holistic fire safety audit if you will which would involve much more than just compliance with the building regulations all right well that's just a bit more focused in my question when you see the sentence which
01:29:33 question when you see the sentence which which I just read to you the first sentence here which refers to the the risk fire risk management plan whose fire risk management plan was that and it will have been for the end users of
01:29:46 it will have been for the end users of the council KCT MO would be the fire risk right and therefore can we take you that your work was to inform the KC TMO
01:29:58 that your work was to inform the KC TMO about its fire risk management plan I would disagree with that well I just wonder why you disagree with that given that we can see that it clearly stated
01:30:09 that we can see that it clearly stated in the sentence and I can see that that wasn't my understanding of the word that I was carrying out that I mean with with with all of these
01:30:20 that I mean with with with all of these kind of documents that there is a certainly a a an amount of detail which is in in these documents which can
01:30:31 is in in these documents which can advise building owners and risk Assessors as to what is there in the building and and you use those documents in a kind of a joined-up way so as I
01:30:44 in a kind of a joined-up way so as I said before one would inform the other [Music]
01:30:49 [Music] it it does it has supposed reading the sentence see you and you inform the plan but to be limited to other minted degree I would say right well they need to take
01:31:04 I would say right well they need to take those fire risks from the fire risk assessment along with the strategy to to come up with their fire safety management plan for the building so it's several documents would feed into that
01:31:16 several documents would feed into that really would have a right to thinking that a approved document b is also some actually sets out regulatory guidance about building management and not only about design it does but in a very
01:31:29 about design it does but in a very limited way it's it's it's so that the building can be managed rather than where as a fire risk assessment we'll go more into detail on the money flip side of the building because it's a building
01:31:41 of the building because it's a building in use at the time rather than they a design a design guidance document essentially right going back to the sentence I've just read to you does it
01:31:53 sentence I've just read to you does it come as a surprise to you cuz I need say you can't remember reading this document the designers surprised it well let me just ask the question does it come as a surprise to you that the report was going to serve to inform the the fire
01:32:04 going to serve to inform the the fire risk management plan for the building it's not so much as it surprised it's the paragraph seems quite generic to be
01:32:15 the paragraph seems quite generic to be honest so being in telling nature of all these documents yes it would inform but it's it's not it's not something that
01:32:27 it's it's not it's not something that will go into it to go in great detail
01:32:37 can I ask you please to turn to CLG 0 0 0 0 0 173 at page 12
01:32:54 this is part of approved document b you see under definitions and then on page 12 on the left-hand column at 0.13 do
01:33:06 12 on the left-hand column at 0.13 do you see miss Cooney there's a title that says management of premises I'm not going to read it all out to you but it says in the first part of it this is this approved document has been written on the assumption that the building
01:33:17 on the assumption that the building concerned will be properly managed building regulations to the not impose any requirements on the management of a building
01:33:23 building however in developing an appropriate fire safety design for a building it may be necessary to consider the way in which it will be managed a design which relies on an unrealistic or unsustainable management regime cannot
01:33:35 unsustainable management regime cannot be considered to have met the requirements of the building regulations and then you can read the last paragraph as well which is about once the building is in use the management regime should be maintained etc were you familiar at
01:33:47 be maintained etc were you familiar at the time with the principle enshrined in that paragraph yes yes so if that's the case why would it come as a surprise to you that the report that you were to
01:33:58 you that the report that you were to draft would inform the fire risk management plan for the building and I suppose it's a misunderstanding on my part of the the word inform I mean it we
01:34:11 part of the the word inform I mean it we designed the building so that it can be managed but we wouldn't go into the same kind of level of detail for that as you would in a fire risk assessment that's the point I was trying to make it
01:34:28 when you digital report did you just get this clear did you expect that your work would inform the fire risk management of the plan for the building interests insofar
01:34:44 plan for the building interests insofar as is relevant to the fire safety design yes I suppose it does yes okay yeah who did you expect would actually carry out
01:34:55 did you expect would actually carry out the risk assessment and at that time I had the device but I asked for the fire
01:35:06 had the device but I asked for the fire safety the fire risk assessment so it was an ongoing yeah Assessor and who did you expect would create or draft the fire risk management plan for
01:35:18 draft the fire risk management plan for the building um that that's typically you know an end user a responsibles person's so in this case it would be the
01:35:31 person's so in this case it would be the sorry in this case it's the team out yes did you expect Studio II who are after all giving you instructions to pass on your report or draft report we'll come
01:35:43 your report or draft report we'll come to that later to the end user as you described them yes yes so did you understand that your report was intended
01:35:54 understand that your report was intended to assist the personal the person responsible under the AR RA to discharge their duties under it I I would have expected it to go back to the client yes could you sir and also compliance with
01:36:08 could you sir and also compliance with section 20 of the London Building Act amendment act 1911 building yes yes now if we you go back please to the FIFA
01:36:20 if we you go back please to the FIFA places you can just do that
01:36:27 which you'll find at TMO 1 0 0 0 right 0 0 3 771 TM o 1 0 Z thank you it's there
01:36:45 0 3 771 TM o 1 0 Z thank you it's there if we look please at page 2 we can see immediately below the opening part of the fee proposal with that it says the
01:36:57 the fee proposal with that it says the scope of the work for the project would therefore include and we looked at this a moment ago site visit and the compilation of the report we'll come back to the site visit question in a moment but can we agree at least by
01:37:08 moment but can we agree at least by reference to this document mr. Cooney that a site visit of up to half a day was envisaged and included as part of the fee proposal yes yes and we can then
01:37:19 the fee proposal yes yes and we can then see some caveats I think underneath that do you see what it says it says it's assumed that a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment exists for the buildings in their current condition and that any relevant findings of that risk
01:37:30 that any relevant findings of that risk assessment will be made available to xover Warrington 5 you see that yes and a fee proposal then goes on to say below that that the scope of the works is based on you can see the assumption that
01:37:43 based on you can see the assumption that a detailed appraisal is not required of the structural fire protection to the load-bearing elements of the structure or of the fire compartment ation within the building however if it should
01:37:54 the building however if it should transpire during the site survey that such an appraisal is necessary then the scope of works can be extended to cover this subject to a separate fee agreement so that you saw that so first of all was
01:38:11 so that you saw that so first of all was it your understanding when you did your report that a detailed appraisal wasn't required of the structural fire protection to the load-bearing elements of the structure or the far compartment
01:38:22 of the structure or the far compartment ation within the building that's right not for this particular piece of work right who told you if and I know you can't recall seeing this paper places at
01:38:34 can't recall seeing this paper places at the time that if you didn't when of that understanding come from or or is that a standard basic element that you would essentially exclude a detailed appraisal of those matters it would be something
01:38:46 of those matters it would be something which would be written in rather than written out and so the the piece of work that I was given was essentially a desktop appraisal Desktop study on the
01:38:59 desktop appraisal Desktop study on the information that was was given to us so
01:39:06 that the paragraph you are referring to there would relate to a much more detailed and maybe nest invasive kind of
01:39:21 detailed and maybe nest invasive kind of survey over the building yes and it goes on indeed to say if it should transpired during the site survey that such an appraisal is necessary then the the scope of the works can be extended can we take it that during the
01:39:34 extended can we take it that during the site survey an appraisal did not present itself as necessary and so James lays with that I remember James realizing with me from site where he outlined
01:39:47 with me from site where he outlined various items within the building so we'll come back to that shortly before I
01:39:59 we'll come back to that shortly before I move down can I just ask you to look within the same part of the proposal where it says just above the four bullet
01:40:11 where it says just above the four bullet points in developing the report we would use our expert knowledge of fire safety design codes which fire safety design codes would that have been referring to do you know and so as a benchmark it
01:40:24 do you know and so as a benchmark it would have been approved document b proof document be anything else and also section 20 but would come into it
01:40:39 also section 20 but would come into it as a relevant building yes maybe maybe the the fire risk assessment guide for
01:40:53 for residential buildings as well but term as kind of the keystone it would be me now if you go down the page you'll
01:41:04 me now if you go down the page you'll see a heading fire engineering team you see that and the second paragraph it says the fire safety team would be based in our London office James Lee consultant and there's an email address
01:41:15 consultant and there's an email address and a telephone number for him would lead the project with assistance from others within the company as necessary Seavey's of the fire safety team can be provided upon request so was it originally envisaged that
01:41:27 so was it originally envisaged that staff in X overs London office I would do the work on this fire safety strategy and that was my understanding yes right did it surprise you that you were being given the job of writing this report for
01:41:39 given the job of writing this report for a London building given that you were based in Warrington at the time and not London no surprise me did it surprise you that you would be writing it but
01:41:50 you that you would be writing it but James lien would be leading the project from London no he was a consultant at the time I take it that that was a more senior position to the one you occupied
01:42:01 senior position to the one you occupied at the time and no the consultant is a grade I see you did say on it yes I say he was junior to you is he yes I see
01:42:12 he was junior to you is he yes I see he was junior to you and was Terry Ashton senior or junior to him do you remember he was an associate very much seen you very much senior okay mr. village I'm wondering if we're getting
01:42:24 village I'm wondering if we're getting to a convenient point we we are approaching a convenient point and I was hoping to get to that point at quarter to twelve all right but if if I haven't then I haven't
01:42:35 but if if I haven't then I haven't but they leave I think I can that's convenient to you mr. Chen to the wheels right um let's look at the bottom of page two fee proposal fixed lump sum fee
01:42:46 page two fee proposal fixed lump sum fee exclusive of the 80 but inclusive of expenses for each stage of the fire safety work is two thousand eight hundred and sixty five pounds see that yes and that's subject to the detailed
01:42:57 yes and that's subject to the detailed standard terms and conditions in Appendix A now you can see that they're at three point five power of three point five of your statement if we can please get back to it you can see that you say
01:43:10 get back to it you can see that you say on page two and three point five I understood that it was proposed that Grenville tower would be altered and refurbished and that the purpose of the existing F SR was to review the existing design and provide a baseline as to the
01:43:23 design and provide a baseline as to the compliance of the fire provisions with the current building regulations and guidance when you say provide a baseline what do you mean by a baseline a
01:43:34 what do you mean by a baseline a baseline for what for the fire safety requirements so to ensure that that that
01:43:51 requirements so to ensure that that that what was actually there in the building at the time was within the realms of of what is acceptable for for for fire
01:44:03 what is acceptable for for for fire safety
01:44:04 safety [Music]
01:44:08 it did as enough as an informative piece of work already
01:44:16 you say I understood that it was proposed that grenfell tower would be altered and refurbished and then the purpose was this baseline and who told you that and I I remember being aware
01:44:30 you that and I I remember being aware that the building must be refurbished however they wanted a a an existing fire strategy for the design of the building as it stood so not taking into account
01:44:42 as it stood so not taking into account any of the first acts it suggested one takes away from that paragraph the suggestion that there was going to be an alteration and a refurbishment to the
01:44:54 alteration and a refurbishment to the tower
01:44:54 tower for which the existing FSI was to be a baseline and we tried the question in a different way what was the intended relationship that you as you saw it between the fire strategy report that
01:45:05 between the fire strategy report that you were going to do and the proposed refurbishment works and as I've said as a as an a4 informative piece of work
01:45:16 a as an a4 informative piece of work that shows that the the the the design of the building at that time would meet with the requirements of of the building
01:45:30 with the requirements of of the building regulations going forward so for example if it didn't have any smoke shaft at all that would be something of a showstopper
01:45:41 that would be something of a showstopper it would be a major redesign etc so it was looking at what was actually actually there and whether that was feasible for the for the refurbishment
01:45:53 feasible for the for the refurbishment without actually going into into what they those elements were going to be yes like about the time yes I see thank
01:46:04 yes like about the time yes I see thank you very much mr. chairman that is a convenient moment it is you and it's convenient all around well you might like to have a break and we'll
01:46:15 might like to have a break and we'll stop now then and we'll come back at 12 o'clock while you're out in the room please don't talk to anyone about or evidence or anything to do with it
01:46:31 the 12 o'clock keys
01:47:35 yes would you awesome security to come back in price
01:48:01 yeah all right to carry on I am yes thank you miss Cooney Thank You mr. chairman mr. Cooney prior to looking at the sari before looking at the draft
01:48:12 the sari before looking at the draft fire safety strategy that you produced I want to ask you some questions if I may please about what information you had available to you when you were drafting it first of all site visit did you ever
01:48:23 it first of all site visit did you ever visit the site yourself I didn't know you didn't why is that um it was my understanding that my colleague would be doing the site survey and relay information back in that manner you say
01:48:36 information back in that manner you say it was your understanding that your colleague would be doing the site survey do we take it from that that you what you learned that he was going to do it or she was going to do it before they went um I assume so yes I can't recall
01:48:51 went um I assume so yes I can't recall exactly what the timeline was but yes who did the site survey um James Lee so did you have a discussion with him about your proposed work before he did the
01:49:04 your proposed work before he did the site survey I do recall speaking with James about checking the ventilation so
01:49:15 James about checking the ventilation so from that I would assume that it was prior to him going right just a moment is the reason why he did the fire survey and you didn't because you were based in
01:49:27 and you didn't because you were based in the Warrington office and he was based in the London office yes right was it usual for you at the time do you remember to prepare a draft fire safety
01:49:39 remember to prepare a draft fire safety strategy for a building without having visited it
01:49:48 both yes yes and no it depended on the building and so if it was a particular thing we had to see then we would go to site what many fire safety strategies
01:50:02 site what many fire safety strategies are prepared from drawings so we would it in this case have been useful do you think to have a tent at the site yourself it would have been yes no let's just have a look back at the
01:50:16 no let's just have a look back at the fee proposal please TM o100 377 to 1 page 2 we looked at this earlier under the first bullet point on page 2 under
01:50:27 the first bullet point on page 2 under proposed scope of work site visit and it says a slight visit expected to take no longer than half a day to survey the building's architecture and fire safety systems you see that yes now from what
01:50:41 systems you see that yes now from what we've seen mr. Lee undertook his site visit on the 29th of May 2012 do you recall that I don't he says it in his statement and I don't think we need to
01:50:52 statement and I don't think we need to call that up but just for the transcript it's ex0 zero zero zero zero one seven four zero H three at paragraph three point six now do you know whether he
01:51:05 point six now do you know whether he ever took any other site visits other than the one he did on the 29th of May 2012 um I think I recall I did yes [Music]
01:51:16 [Music] because I remember speaking to him about it so specifically in relation to the chef dimensions okay now just to get the
01:51:29 chef dimensions okay now just to get the dates right he says he did his site visit on the 29th of May the site visit took place that site visit at least took place before the fee proposal dated the
01:51:41 place before the fee proposal dated the 11th of June but you're saying he you think he did another one a later one after the 11th of June I think so I can't can't be absolutely guarantee it because it's oh I don't remember the timeline but I
01:51:55 oh I don't remember the timeline but I was under the impression that you had hit right but the site visit specified in the proposal is only for one a site visit expected to take no longer than half a day are you saying that there was
01:52:07 half a day are you saying that there was another site visit even though the fee proposal specified the single visit may well have been that's not terribly unusual right do you know why the
01:52:19 unusual right do you know why the quotation only quoted for one site visit if one had already been done I don't know right now you say you you spoke to
01:52:31 know right now you say you you spoke to him when you spoke to him roughly when was that
01:52:39 was that well it will have been after I was asked take a piece of work on so I would assume it was between dr. Barker given
01:52:50 assume it was between dr. Barker given me the piece of work and producing the draft document so you see we've been told that mr. Lee James Lee left X over
01:53:02 told that mr. Lee James Lee left X over on the 30th of July 2012 okay so if he left X over on the 30th of July 2012 do you know why he was speaking to you from
01:53:14 you know why he was speaking to you from sites as you say about this work after you were tasked with the apparent preparation of the report that's has that's how my memory remembers it like I
01:53:27 that's how my memory remembers it like I said cut the actual timeline I don't recall it's precisely and it's in and around that time so I suppose
01:53:38 in and around that time so I suppose that's a question for mr. Lee but I do recall speaking to him
01:53:51 now you say in paragraph three point seven of your statement if you can get back to that EXO zero zero zero zero one five nine zero page three you said at
01:54:07 five nine zero page three you said at paragraph three point seven in the last sentence there I also discussed the layout with mr. Lee who had been on site in order to understand the layout earlier this morning you said it's just
01:54:21 earlier this morning you said it's just page 61 at line 18 you don't need to get back to it the he liaised with you from site do you remember where the Helios with you from site or after he'd been to site and I
01:54:34 site or after he'd been to site and I don't know whether it was actually in the building at the time or whether there was a little Sigma C or in the office I suppose I was on the phone so I couldn't accurately say where he was but
01:54:46 couldn't accurately say where he was but I do what I recall is the conversation about about the building and specifically the ventilation right do
01:54:58 specifically the ventilation right do you recall even roughly how soon after you were asked by Miss Barker to do this report you had the conversation with mr. Lee and I I don't recall it to that kind
01:55:09 Lee and I I don't recall it to that kind of level um possibly in the first week afterwards right but just just sticking with paragraph three point seven you say you discuss the layout of mr. Lee who'd
01:55:21 you discuss the layout of mr. Lee who'd been on site in order to understand the layout yeah it's logical isn't it that must have been before he left X over
01:55:33 must have been before he left X over absolutely yes right if that's right then your recollection about when you were first asked to prepare this report must be must be wrong because he left in
01:55:44 must be must be wrong because he left in July
01:55:46 July at the end of July I would have to check the dates when he left and and the dates if there's any other correspondence which predates what I've seen that is my
01:56:00 which predates what I've seen that is my understanding of the timeline but it is some time ago so memory can jump around a little bit for your recollection yours
01:56:13 a little bit for your recollection yours in your statement of paragraph three point seven is that you discuss the layout with mr. Li in order to understand the layout was your discussion with mr. Li limited to the layout no what else did you discuss I do
01:56:26 layout no what else did you discuss I do recall speaking to him about the ventilation as I've said and the just the general elements of the building so
01:56:38 the general elements of the building so I think we spoke about how the stair enclosure kind of came through the building and down the building to the to
01:56:50 building and down the building to the to the final exit door the last door at the building I don't remember specifics other than those kind of things right when you had the conversation with mr.
01:57:01 when you had the conversation with mr. Li about the enclosures and the final exit door the matters you've just referred to was he reporting to you about what he'd found on site or were you asking him questions arising out of
01:57:13 you asking him questions arising out of concerns you'd had from looking at the documents with which you'd been provided I remember being quite perplexed by the layout of the lower floors because it
01:57:26 layout of the lower floors because it didn't seem to flow on the on the drawings that I'd received which were quite grainy so I think I asked him if
01:57:38 quite grainy so I think I asked him if he would look at certain elements for me and report anything back we'll come back to mr. Li in a moment can I ask you to go back please to paragraph three point six because I think I'd like to take mr.
01:57:50 six because I think I'd like to take mr. Lanham slightly more ordered way three point six in your statement page three as we can see there you say in producing the existing FS are do you see you say I was initially provided with a
01:58:01 you say I was initially provided with a limited amount of information and then you go on to say that you recall looking at the original plans for Grenville tower on microfiche and then you say you
01:58:13 tower on microfiche and then you say you assume they would have come from the architect this is typical you say of the amount of information I would have expected to receive to carry out a fire strategy report on an existing building so just to be clear was the information
01:58:25 so just to be clear was the information that you were provided with just the microfiche use of the original plans for Granville Tower originally yes yes how did you get those do you remember I
01:58:36 requested them from Studio II okay as you say I a few but you can't remember that they would have come from is that because you asked for them specifically I I did ask we had no working drawings
01:58:48 I I did ask we had no working drawings of the existing tower to actually consider and they were obviously the bench but the basics of what you would expect so I requested them you did you
01:59:00 expect so I requested them you did you ask for anything for anything else from Studio a a micro thesis I I asked for the I I have several questions as I
01:59:11 the I I have several questions as I remember from from looking at documents and the fire risk assessment father Berlin was right you say that you were initially provided with a limited amount
01:59:23 initially provided with a limited amount of information I'm stressing those words and can you explain why you say the initial information provided to you was limited to that material yes the the
01:59:37 limited to that material yes the the drawings which we received which had been taken from microfiche archives off the tower when it was first designed came through on a floor layout and the
01:59:53 came through on a floor layout and the and the actual building lines were quite Fuzzy's for want of a better term there is quite blurred over time and obviously
02:00:04 is quite blurred over time and obviously the process of getting them onto a paper format rather than on the microfiche that's that's what I recall looking at initially right I mean you say the
02:00:16 initially right I mean you say the information was limited and and all you got was the microfiche and he added to that and just just now why was the information that you got limited as opposed to all of the information that
02:00:28 opposed to all of the information that you would ask for and expect to get in order to be able to produce a report like this just the quality of the drawings was very poor so actually trying to determine the the lines that
02:00:44 trying to determine the the lines that surrounded Lobby the firefighting stairs the flats layouts etc were quite difficult to determine and I remember taking quite some some time to assess
02:00:59 taking quite some some time to assess the layout from from the other drawings themselves right so if the if the quality of the drawings on the microfiche were so poor as you say they were why not get on the train and go
02:01:11 were why not get on the train and go down to grenfell and look at it for yourself I I could have could have done that I suppose um I think having sat and
02:01:23 that I suppose um I think having sat and studied and looked at them the tower was you know the each floor was a replica of the one below it so as long as I was
02:01:34 the one below it so as long as I was pedantic about looking at those lines I could see that that was the the structure of the building at the time you've answered my questions on paragraph 3.6 by referring to the
02:01:46 paragraph 3.6 by referring to the quality of the outline of the drawings on the microfiche which I understand but the impression one gets from three point six is that you were initially provided with a limited amount of information but that that amount of information would be
02:01:59 that that amount of information would be typical that you would expect to receive to carry out a fire strategy report on an existing building so just how I understand your evidence are you saying that the
02:02:09 that the information about grenfell tower comprised in the plans on microfiche would all you is all you would ordinarily get or expect to get in order to be able to carry out a fire strategy
02:02:21 to be able to carry out a fire strategy report such as this we would typically expect to see drawings for building it just was that the quality of these drawings weren't the best so typically
02:02:34 drawings weren't the best so typically for an existing building we would we would ask the responsible people the people from the health and safety file etc for drawings layouts of the drawing
02:02:46 etc for drawings layouts of the drawing hopefully if they have a fire strategy drawing we asked for one of those which would indicate various fire safety related matters they really vary depending on the age of the building and
02:02:58 depending on the age of the building and and how it's been recorded over time but to have archived documents isn't unusual I think the the limited amount of
02:03:10 I think the the limited amount of information was due to the fact that quite it's quite small replicas of what was on the microfiche so whilst you
02:03:22 was on the microfiche so whilst you could kind of look at them and interpret them it wasn't it wasn't without having to go through a process to be able to understand the layout if that makes make
02:03:34 understand the layout if that makes make sense leaving aside the question of the quality of the drawings on the microfiche would you normally carry out a fire safety strategy report on an existing building on such limited information as you describe here um
02:03:47 information as you describe here um that's why we would start off I think yeah yes right because you say in that our sentence it's typical of the amount of information I would have expected to receive to carry out a fire strategy
02:03:59 receive to carry out a fire strategy report rather suggests that that is all you would need in order to carry out a fire strategy report is that right I think it could be read that way I don't think that's the intent of it I think
02:04:10 think that's the intent of it I think it's it's it's it's certainly part of the basic information that you would would expect to receive what else would you expect to receive um we would ask
02:04:24 you expect to receive um we would ask for as much information as we possibly could get but certainly the fire risk assessment and any other pertinent information that was in the in the files
02:04:37 information that was in the in the files that they they had food would go through going back to your discussion with mr. Lee that you recall did mr. Lee give you any information relating to the fire safety systems present in the building
02:04:49 safety systems present in the building um
02:04:50 um beyond the ventilation I can't I can't recall specifics on the I think and
02:05:01 recall specifics on the I think and there was some information about some detection would you normally ask your client or your instructing person to
02:05:13 client or your instructing person to provide you with up-to-date drawings of all active and passive fire safety systems within the building um not necessarily if if if the basic
02:05:25 um not necessarily if if if the basic infrastructure is there and the the ongoing use of the building has maintained those then we wouldn't necessarily we wouldn't interrogate that to the same level as a fire risk
02:05:36 to the same level as a fire risk assessment would with it being just a bit focused on the design criteria I'm not sure I understand why that is is so surely you would want to see all
02:05:49 surely you would want to see all accurate detailed drawings which demonstrated the up-to-date position of all active and passive fire prevention systems or mitigation measures in the
02:06:01 systems or mitigation measures in the building in order to deal report you would if they were available yes but at the time we were asked to carry out the work that that package of
02:06:12 the work that that package of information was all we received all we had we did I do recall asking for information from Studio E and that's
02:06:23 information from Studio E and that's that's where the fire risk assessment came from but that's we could only work with the information that we had at that time otherwise it would have it would
02:06:37 time otherwise it would have it would have I suppose pushed a deadline further back and as as it was a draft report anyway it was it was the first kind of
02:06:48 anyway it was it was the first kind of pulling together of all the relevant information we had at that now you say that last answer which I think I need just to follow up on you said I recall asking for information from studio e and
02:06:59 asking for information from studio e and that's where the fire risk assessment came from we'll come to the fire risk assessment later but I want to get clear when did you ask for information from Studio E over and above the request for
02:07:13 Studio E over and above the request for the drawings um I think I asked for it on an email I think this new email service did you actually specifically ask studio for the up-to-date drawings
02:07:26 ask studio for the up-to-date drawings of all active and passive fire system fire prevention or mitigation systems in the building not in those words but yes we asked for all the information that they had or could get on the existing
02:07:39 they had or could get on the existing building you say at paragraph three point seven of your statement that you had difficulties trying to work out the
02:07:50 had difficulties trying to work out the layout of the lower floors from the information I had so I requested drawings and photographs of grenfell tile from Studio E to assist me in visualizing the layouts now again
02:08:03 visualizing the layouts now again wouldn't it have been simpler to take yourself down to the site and look at it yourself take your own measurements and photographs and it's certainly something that could have done yeah my question really is why
02:08:14 done yeah my question really is why didn't you um because I was I was leading with other members of staff who were most a lot more local than I was I was asked to
02:08:25 more local than I was I was asked to undertake a a desktop-based study so yes I I could have gone if if if I felt that the information I was getting wasn't
02:08:36 the information I was getting wasn't [Music]
02:08:37 [Music] answering questions yes I see did you feel in any way that you were constrained by the budget of just under 3,000 pounds um not particularly no did
02:08:50 3,000 pounds um not particularly no did mr. Lee give you any notes that he had made about his site visit I don't recall receiving anything written did you ask
02:09:02 receiving anything written did you ask him for any I don't recall that I did know why is that and I do recall discussing with it him on that on the telephone the various things so I will
02:09:14 telephone the various things so I will have made my own notes from that up in Warrington to to incorporate into there into the report right are you saying
02:09:25 into the report right are you saying that you made a note of your telephone discussion with mr. Lee I would have done probably as is my general when I'm trying to gather information it would
02:09:38 trying to gather information it would have been on a on the back of a drawing or something like that right do you keep a notebook for each subject I don't I don't I do now at the time I didn't know
02:09:49 don't I do now at the time I didn't know it was that general practice within xover in for people in your position and instructed to do a report not to make notes of important matters and no it was it was it was various so I know that dr.
02:10:03 it was it was various so I know that dr. Barker was quite fastidious about notebooks but other members of staff would be more reliant on their emails or other memories etc
02:10:18 their emails or other memories etc rather than documenting every single matter yeah so just to be clear you're saying to us are you that you took a note of mr. what mr. Lee said on the call and you wrote that down on the
02:10:30 call and you wrote that down on the plans are on the back of the plans it will have be that that was my general where I kept all my information and then obviously once that information has been
02:10:45 dealt with if he's healthy the report has been prepared then I would have put it in there and they in a pile with the other stuff to be to be
02:10:56 pile with the other stuff to be to be dealt with kind of as a as a filing system if you will yeah and you say as a filing system if you if you will do you know where those plans or those names do
02:11:07 know where those plans or those names do not know what happened post carrying out the report where there would have been probably with a stack of completed
02:11:21 probably with a stack of completed paperwork which I don't know what I believe done with those if I'm perfectly honest they probably would have been disposed of at some point would it be
02:11:33 disposed of at some point would it be normal
02:11:33 normal Alex over to maintain a project file for a project such as this it's normal to have a digital file so we didn't keep I
02:11:46 have a digital file so we didn't keep I didn't as I say other members of staff work in different ways as everybody does but I didn't keep a paper project file
02:11:57 but I didn't keep a paper project file was there a is there a document management system or a quality control system which actually made the system uniform across the organization yes is maintaining documents yes there's a
02:12:08 maintaining documents yes there's a digital based filing system if you will but the notes that I will have incorporated within the strategy are then in the strategy so I wouldn't have
02:12:19 then in the strategy so I wouldn't have kept the the original hand written notes from the telephone conversation have you been asked to provide those notes or identify our
02:12:31 provide those notes or identify our assistant identifying those notes from the project file the digital system as you call it and in order to be able to assist the inquiry yes I've every every last piece of information in the office
02:12:44 last piece of information in the office and on the computer systems well through now do you remember costing your mind back to the conversation whether mr. Lee made any comment on whether during his survey or surveys as it now turns out he
02:12:59 survey or surveys as it now turns out he an appraisal of the structural fire protection to the load-bearing elements of the building or far compartment ation within it was required sorry could you rephrase that yeah did mr. Lee make any comment to you
02:13:13 yeah did mr. Lee make any comment to you about whether during his site survey he thought that an appraisal of the structure was required either been relation to the load-bearing elements or in relation to the compartment ation um
02:13:24 in relation to the compartment ation um I don't recall whether he did I do know that we put that into the into the report for it to be checked right and
02:13:37 report for it to be checked right and did you see the photographs that he took I do recall some photographs yes right let's just have a look at one or two if we can
02:13:45 we can EXO please EXO 0 0 0 0 1 749 these are some photographs there are 24 of them I think if you could just be shown those
02:13:57 think if you could just be shown those with a quick scan through some of them at the beginning of those photographs that are familiar to you do you think um yes I do you think those are the photographs what what use would those
02:14:10 photographs what what use would those photographs have been to you just and I'm some of them may be more useful than others in when you received them and so that I could get a physical look at
02:14:21 that I could get a physical look at the materials of the building and its general scale and layout some off might you say more useful than others but no
02:14:36 you say more useful than others but no did you have any discussion with mr. Lee about whether he had been told about the TMO is intended budget for x overs work on Grenfell tower no no no did mr. Lee
02:14:50 on Grenfell tower no no no did mr. Lee or anybody else give you a reason to think that the job is being done on an extremely tight budget no getting back to this question of the baseline for compliance that we looked at earlier you
02:15:03 compliance that we looked at earlier you remember where you said in your report that the fire safety strategy was to be a baseline did you think at the time that it was essential that your report should be entirely accurate because if
02:15:14 should be entirely accurate because if it wasn't entirely accurate then that might have a knock-on effect on the fire strategy that was to be done for the refurbishment I don't think I ever
02:15:25 refurbishment I don't think I ever looked at it from those that that point of view it would be as accurate as I was able to make it with the information we had at that time and as a as a report on
02:15:41 had at that time and as a as a report on which other matters may well refer back to see what the existing condition was now is it right that you carried out
02:15:52 now is it right that you carried out substantially all the work on the existing fire safety strategy for the tower except the site visit yes so nobody else helped you with it um not
02:16:04 nobody else helped you with it um not that I recall really
02:16:10 now can I ask you to look at an email please
02:16:14 please EXO 0 0 0 0 1 2 7 9 1 2 7 9 this is your email to Andrew Martin on the 17th of
02:16:27 email to Andrew Martin on the 17th of August 2012 at 12:09 over time may become important later in your evidence we'll come back to that it's not the news but just to orientate you in your
02:16:40 news but just to orientate you in your recollection in terms of the chronology this is the 17th of August say the day after your existing fire safety strategy report was signed off by Claire Barker ok yes ok yes and was this a well take
02:16:55 ok yes ok yes and was this a well take take a chance to look at it it's an email that you are probably familiar with by now because it was referred to by various people during the opening and it's got some fairly colorful language
02:17:07 it's got some fairly colorful language in it so it might it might trigger a recollection it does yes we'll come back to that part of it later but was this at a time when you were about to go on holiday it is yes so was this a bait
02:17:19 holiday it is yes so was this a bait basically a hand over email to Andrew Martin I wouldn't be as completely sane to hand over I was expecting or just to
02:17:31 to hand over I was expecting or just to get back to me having issued the the strategy and it was really for him just to field any calls I may come in whilst
02:17:42 to field any calls I may come in whilst both myself and dr. Barker were on on leave and yeah it's ok can I just focus with you then on the sentence just below the middle of the paragraph which says
02:17:55 the middle of the paragraph which says James has been to site yes you see you say James has been to site and given some advice but I don't know what he said but it would appear not much they're just focusing on that if can you
02:18:11 they're just focusing on that if can you just explain why you're writing that if you've had a conversation with mr. Lee that you now recall about the detail of what's in the building including the state of the exits etc
02:18:28 as far as I'm you know I don't know what so that this email to put into context is in relation to a an email I've been
02:18:40 is in relation to a an email I've been sent by Terry I think it was who was asking my opinion on a proposal from the architects on one of the options for the layouts of the lower floors in the refurbishment package so it's not it's
02:18:55 refurbishment package so it's not it's not related to the existing strategy at all so they were they were looking at the layout of those new floors containing some residential accommodation so I know that James had
02:19:09 accommodation so I know that James had been to site he's spoken to the client but I I he didn't maybe because he'd lifeguard was imminently leaving but I don't know
02:19:22 imminently leaving but I don't know actually what he'd actually said to the to the to the architects or indeed if it if he had any contact with the client I see do you know what did you discover
02:19:36 see do you know what did you discover what James Lee had actually said during the conversation you record him having had with somebody before you submitted the draft report to dr. Barker for her peer review the day before and I I don't
02:19:49 peer review the day before and I I don't know what James had discussed on site with others now did you not think to ask him um in the context of what we were looking at here I think there are some
02:20:03 looking at here I think there are some layout drawings somewhere that he was he was looking at some compartment lines and requirements for fire resistance and
02:20:15 and requirements for fire resistance and I think that's where it's come from because it didn't really detail much more than that to me right when you wrote this in your email what were you going on when you said that he'd given
02:20:27 going on when you said that he'd given some advice I don't know what he said but it would appear not much were you looking at an email or were you referring to something that somebody told you
02:20:35 told you I think it was it was to do with the email of the proposal layout of the residential proposals at the lower floors but you say he's given some
02:20:46 floors but you say he's given some advice but I don't know what he said who told you that he'd given some advice I can't I don't remember the the context of our formulating that particular sentence when you go on to say it would
02:20:59 sentence when you go on to say it would appear not much what would that appear to you from again just just not having the information in front of me to to to
02:21:12 the information in front of me to to to see what what has happened on site well who are you in contact with at all about about grenfell town other than a conversation with James Lee about or from site and dr. Barker um the only
02:21:25 from site and dr. Barker um the only contact I recall having with outside of X over was with Bruce at Studio E right and I see I'm dead that's it I know
02:21:37 and I see I'm dead that's it I know there were so many emails from KC TMO with the fire risk assessment but I didn't actually speak to it was just a received email did you know that at this
02:21:49 received email did you know that at this point that James leaves visited and it had only lasted two hours would you agree that two hours would be insufficient in order to make a meaningful appraisal of the building for
02:22:00 meaningful appraisal of the building for the purposes of preparing a fire strategy for an existing building such as such as Granville Tower which is a pretty substantial
02:22:10 I think if you have assessed the layout of the building in terms of fire safety design of that type of a building it's a
02:22:21 design of that type of a building it's a it is a short amount of time but it's not an unmeaning full amount of time where you can determine the various components of the building fairly fairly
02:22:34 components of the building fairly fairly quickly yeah now according to the evidence of mr. Lee's given and he left x over as I said before on the 20th of July 2012 which is more than two weeks
02:22:46 July 2012 which is more than two weeks before you started work on the existing building fire safety strategy and indeed he left almost a month before you send the email to Andrew Martin that we've got up here on the screen what steps did
02:22:58 got up here on the screen what steps did you take to ensure that you had obtained all the relevant information from James Lee regarding his site visit before you let before he left just from the
02:23:10 let before he left just from the conversation that we had really there was no reason for James not to give me all the information did I I didn't specifically ask the question is that all the information because it's not the
02:23:24 all the information because it's not the kind of question you would necessarily ask you would have that discussion and that would be you know the assumption that your colleague is giving you everything that you you need to have
02:23:36 everything that you you need to have okay well we'll come back to this email later on going back to your statement if I can please you say and this is page 8 of your statement paragraph 6.4 you say
02:23:49 of your statement paragraph 6.4 you say I excuse me halfway down the paragraph I had reviewed the existing fire risk assessment provided prepared by CS Stokes associates limited day to 29th
02:24:00 Stokes associates limited day to 29th December 2010 which had been sent to me by Janice ray of Casey TMF you see that and that had raised no concerns regarding complementation so would it have informed my assumption just say
02:24:11 have informed my assumption just say you're you're clear about the context you're talking about the level of compartment ation which you said you expected to be high
02:24:20 can can we assume together that the risk assessment you're referring to is the fire risk assessment by Carl Stokes dated the 29th of December 2010 yes yes
02:24:33 dated the 29th of December 2010 yes yes okay we're going to come to that in just a moment if can I show you two documents or one document before we get there first of all TMO one zero zero three seven seven four zero this is an email
02:24:51 seven seven four zero this is an email if we look at the top email from Paul Duncan to you on the 13th of August 2012 copy to Janis Rae and you could see just
02:25:03 copy to Janis Rae and you could see just below it as the second email on the page Janis Ray had sent to pull Duncan something called attached you see that will come to the attached in a moment
02:25:14 will come to the attached in a moment and then pull down curtain sends it on to you
02:25:16 to you Polly Kate please find attached information requested you see that yes and and that was in response to something the same day and can I ask you
02:25:27 something the same day and can I ask you to look at the attachment this is TMO one zero zero three seven seven four three
02:25:36 this is the fire risk assessment of the 29th of December 2010 done by Carl Stokes for the for Greenville tower so that was what was attached to the email
02:25:47 that was what was attached to the email do you remember seeing the seat this attachment I do yes yes did you take any steps to verify that the fire risk
02:25:58 steps to verify that the fire risk assessment was accurate we could see that it's dated December 2010 and this is now almost two years later so a question again did you take any steps to verify that the FR a the fire risk
02:26:10 verify that the FR a the fire risk assessment was accurate and no as a as a professional document I've I didn't feel the need to dissect it beyond what it is
02:26:22 the need to dissect it beyond what it is okay if you look at page 1 you can see that there are some areas not covered you see that at the foot of the page yes yes and that includes the Boxing Club
02:26:34 yes and that includes the Boxing Club the nursery access to the upper ground floor and upper ground floor level offices and what steps did you take if any to request the fire risk assessments for those non residential areas which were excluded from mr. States his report
02:26:46 were excluded from mr. States his report and I didn't request anything beyond this and I think the the principal reason for that is that those areas are
02:27:01 reason for that is that those areas are whilst relevant to the to the rro and will have their own fire risk assessments individually if their attendant it out for example the layout
02:27:16 attendant it out for example the layout of the building and the structure of the building didn't didn't bring any cause for concern it's a very substantial institute concrete reinforced frame so I
02:27:32 institute concrete reinforced frame so I didn't ask for any further information on that why is that um probably at the time because I didn't think it was necessary for the draft and that was
02:27:43 necessary for the draft and that was going out
02:27:45 going out why wouldn't it be necessary for the draft
02:27:47 draft um principally because of the construction of the building I said you know I looking at it in hindsight yes it would have been a good idea to ask for
02:28:00 would have been a good idea to ask for it however the information that would have come back from that I can't see that it would have added a great deal extra information that I couldn't
02:28:12 extra information that I couldn't already have gathered from the from the layouts of the drawing layouts themselves but it would have told you
02:28:24 themselves but it would have told you they would have told you that this was a building which had a single staircase but was shared by a wide range of different uses sports leisure childcare
02:28:35 different uses sports leisure childcare and residential and also the electrical substation so it would have given you that information in detail wouldn't it and they may well have given more detail
02:28:46 and they may well have given more detail but I was already aware that it was an excuse on the lower floors right now if you look at the very foot of the page you see it says significant findings an action plan of this fire risk assessment are inserted next with this document
02:28:59 are inserted next with this document continuing on page two did you note that when you read this fr a after mr. dong Curtin had sent it yes did you ask mr. Duncan tinfoil the significant findings
02:29:11 Duncan tinfoil the significant findings in action plan referred to on page one there I don't recall that I didn't know why is that because the reason I was looking for the fire risk assessment wasn't necessarily to look at the
02:29:24 wasn't necessarily to look at the specific discrete items for example many virus assessments might look at the more
02:29:35 virus assessments might look at the more at the condition of things or the management of the building combustibles in escape routes etc etc whereas I was looking at the design of the building
02:29:46 looking at the design of the building principally for the draft but was it not an important outcome or were these significant findings in action plan not an important outcome or
02:29:57 an important outcome or comes for you to see so that you could be sure about your baseline but well in in any fire risk assessment any suitable
02:30:09 in any fire risk assessment any suitable sufficient one any action plan any findings on the action plan should also be inherent in the report so anything in the action plan should be drawn from the
02:30:22 the action plan should be drawn from the content of the report itself it's a suppose a summary of findings and so the information should already be in there
02:30:33 information should already be in there in any event so I suppose the yeah the answer to that is it should be in the report in any events rather than as a
02:30:46 report in any events rather than as a separate something you in the in the conclusion no of the the the action plan so do I take from that answer that you were you were proceeding on the assumption that the report reflected all
02:31:00 assumption that the report reflected all the significant findings and the action plan and you double yourself such that you didn't trouble yourself to read it and I don't think it's a matter I didn't trouble myself I think if the if if the
02:31:13 trouble myself I think if the if if the information had been there of course I would have looked at it but it should be in the body of the report in any event right would you normally use or read a
02:31:26 right would you normally use or read a fire risk assessment that referred mph I'm posted two significant findings in an action plan without actually reading
02:31:38 an action plan without actually reading the significant findings an action plan it would have been it would have been informative to have them absolutely but based on the the scope of the work that
02:31:52 based on the the scope of the work that I was doing at the time I must have felt up that the report gave me sufficient information to to be able to base
02:32:04 information to to be able to base the existing fire safety strategy on with hindsight yes I probably would ask for it now at the time I must have been satisfied I had enough information to go
02:32:16 satisfied I had enough information to go on my question really is how could you be satisfied that you had enough information to go on without double-checking the information you did have in the report against the significant findings in action plan
02:32:28 significant findings in action plan which formed an integral part of that report and again I would say that the the information should be in the report so just to look at the summary at the
02:32:41 so just to look at the summary at the end isn't isn't where my focus would have been on it would have been on the actual on the content of the
02:32:53 actual on the content of the descriptions and the and the detail which the risk Assessor put in the report itself and go back to the question I asked a minute ago sir not quite sure I've got an answer mr. Cooney would it be normal for you to use or
02:33:05 would it be normal for you to use or read a fire risk assessment that signposted significant findings and an action plan without reading them like
02:33:16 action plan without reading them like I've said in hindsight yes I would ask for it but then I suppose that your answer isn't it I would I would ask for it now at the time I didn't have it
02:33:33 it now at the time I didn't have it whether I did or didn't ask specifically for it I honestly can't recall but I would assume that I didn't my question is would it have been normal at the time
02:33:44 is would it have been normal at the time not to have read the significant findings an action plan no I know it's possible to be normal but that's the information we had no you sent an email
02:33:57 information we had no you sent an email to Bruce sones on the 9th of August 2012 asking him for further information and we can see that at exo zero zero zero zero one five nine two please and I'd like you to go to
02:34:08 two please and I'd like you to go to page three
02:34:13 we can see that at the top of page one is an email from you two brief signs on the 10th of August where you thanked him for the information I'd like to get a
02:34:24 for the information I'd like to get a page three bottom of the chain on page three you you start the chain on the 9th of August you see and you say to him
02:34:37 of August you see and you say to him hello Bruce and then you ask him some questions you say is the single stair serving the residential levels pressurized or is it only the lobby's to the flats which have ventilation
02:34:48 the flats which have ventilation provision is there a dry riser is there a firefighting lift do you know the construction of the riser doors ie whether they provide two hours fire resistance within with an existing
02:35:00 resistance within with an existing building I appreciate some information does vaporize over time any information you could provide would be useful first of all kind of just ask you what is a riser door is that the door to the dry
02:35:13 riser door is that the door to the dry riser
02:35:13 riser yes sir riser door service risers and he does that give access into the protected chat I see um if you had done a half-day site visit would you ordinarily have
02:35:24 site visit would you ordinarily have been able to establish the answers to those questions nominally yes yes see
02:35:35 those questions nominally yes yes see nominally so with a forty-year-old door or a thirty-year-old door we will be looking at it for its general construction and to see whether it looks
02:35:49 construction and to see whether it looks and feels like a fire door essentially they would there's no if you don't have the certification for it we couldn't pinpoint exactly what door it was but yes we would look at the doors as part
02:36:00 yes we would look at the doors as part of that walk-around site why hadn't you gleaned this information from James Lee when you spoke to him um I don't recall whether we discussed
02:36:12 um I don't recall whether we discussed the doors I do know that we did put a requirement in the in the strategy to check the fire resistance of the cause indoors the fire resistance at the
02:36:24 cause indoors the fire resistance at the building generally if you knew that in an existing building some information would vaporize as you put it over time wasn't it all the more important for you to go down to site look at the condition
02:36:37 to go down to site look at the condition of the building and assess the active and passive fire safety measures in the building with James going to sytem James the experienced fire engineer and I
02:36:51 the experienced fire engineer and I don't think it makes it more important that I would go down I would expect that information to come you know for him to make make those kind of assessments when he's when he's walking around the building to see that they are fire doors
02:37:03 building to see that they are fire doors and v et cetera but he clearly hadn't heard he because otherwise you wouldn't be asking these questions
02:37:10 we wouldn't know necessarily the the fire resistance of a fire door we can go off the width you can go off the the strips and seals on of a door to to kind
02:37:22 strips and seals on of a door to to kind of guide you towards what the door might be but without any markings on the doors you're not necessarily going to find out whether it's a one or ninety minute door or whatever it needed to be can we take
02:37:34 or whatever it needed to be can we take it that at this time you had to ask Bruce owns these questions because mr. Lee had not been able to give you the answers and not giving you the answers possibly yes that would be an assumption
02:37:47 possibly yes that would be an assumption yes right do you remember what had prompted you to ask these questions of mr. Sainz um I think I was looking for the component parts to see whether they
02:37:58 the component parts to see whether they had any information on them so I see and if we look at please at the response that comes from mr. sounds on the 10th of August it's at the foot of page 110
02:38:12 of August it's at the foot of page 110 51 - you copied to Paul Duncan and indeed others and he says dear Kate yesterday was the project meeting for grenfell I will answer your questions as
02:38:24 grenfell I will answer your questions as best I can Paul Duncan might be able to Ford to the right person in the TMO if you need further clarification but then he answers your questions you see and then over at the bottom he goes on to the next page and there's
02:38:36 he goes on to the next page and there's a plan on page 2 and underneath the plan do you see it says firefighting lifts no see that and then he says fire rating not sure but the lifts were refurbished
02:38:48 not sure but the lifts were refurbished a few years ago Paul might you be able to clarify and then he says IMG five eight seven zero existing lift doors you see that mm-hmm now that told you that at least that the
02:39:01 now that told you that at least that the lifts were refurbished a few years ago did mr. Duncan ever clarify the information about that with you and not to my knowledge now did you chase it up from him um I don't I don't believe I
02:39:14 from him um I don't I don't believe I did no why is that um because I think I think in the in the risk assessment there was quite a number of quite a
02:39:26 there was quite a number of quite a number of references to a firefighting and evacuation left which being the fire risk assessment and done by somebody's
02:39:38 risk assessment and done by somebody's competent in fire safety you would you would take to be the case and if they have been refurbished again we wouldn't
02:39:50 have been refurbished again we wouldn't assume that they've been done in in anything but a competent manner as you would do as a responsible person so if
02:40:02 would do as a responsible person so if the if the lists were indeed refurbished then then it wouldn't cause any any alarm bells go off particularly you see we know that you email pulled on curtain
02:40:13 we know that you email pulled on curtain on the 13th of August three days later than as in order to ask him for the FR a we've seen that my question is why didn't you follow up the question about the the lifts with him
02:40:24 question about the the lifts with him when asking him for that information I don't I don't know I don't know um possibly because I was looking for answers from the assessment I
02:40:37 answers from the assessment I I cut I can't recall yes did you ask mr. sands or anybody else for any further information before starting work on your draft strategy I can't I can't recall I
02:40:51 draft strategy I can't I can't recall I know I had several conversations with Bruce but time line I'd I wouldn't be able to tell you did you request any fire safety policies no I don't think so
02:41:03 fire safety policies no I don't think so did you request any fire safety management policies or procedures no I didn't request any maintenance records such as records for the aov or the lifts
02:41:14 such as records for the aov or the lifts and I didn't but I wouldn't normally ask for maintenance records for a fire for fire safety strategy looking at the design of the building principally I don't understand well if you are using a
02:41:27 don't understand well if you are using a if you're looking at the existing fire safety strategy for the building why don't you want to know whether the lifts are working or not and we're looking at
02:41:38 are working or not and we're looking at a building in terms of its component parts for fire safety principally in that in the in the desktop story that I was requested to do with that
02:41:49 was requested to do with that information and the fire risk assessment and management documents that the responsible people hold that all those documents come together to form a a a
02:42:04 suite of documents to which therican can refer it was it was never my understanding and it was never the intention of the document to be a holistic fire safety audit of the
02:42:16 holistic fire safety audit of the building and that's something quite different and certainly not something that was in the scope of works that was just my understanding when I when I
02:42:28 just my understanding when I when I started doing it if the for example if the aov the smoke vent system was there very old and not working is there not something that you would want to know
02:42:39 something that you would want to know when crafting your strategy with the with these items the items that we didn't have enough information on what we do as
02:42:48 we do as so I recall having read it further recently the the fire strategy does ask for things items such as that to be
02:42:59 for things items such as that to be checked and investigated so that you know we would have the confidence to say that those items could be part of the of the building I suppose but then it's you
02:43:13 the building I suppose but then it's you know so it wasn't in the strategy that we needed to check these things yeah so so my question really again why didn't you ask for for example the maintenance
02:43:24 you ask for for example the maintenance records for the aov because we asked for for that it was my understanding at the time having read some of the information which was sent through says that the the
02:43:36 which was sent through says that the the shaft was to be upgraded or or maintained or some areas of the shaft were being refurbished so I suppose it
02:43:47 were being refurbished so I suppose it in in a way it would have negated any maintenance records for that because it was going to be refurbished but as it stood at the time we asked for it to protect you at the time as we've seen
02:43:59 protect you at the time as we've seen from the 17th of August email to which we will return didn't know very much about the refurbishment strategy so you weren't able to make a decision not to explore the maintenance records of for
02:44:10 explore the maintenance records of for example the AAV well you well I do know that some of that information did was that relate to the to the mechanical shaft I think that's why in the strategy there's quite a lot of information on
02:44:22 there's quite a lot of information on the on the shaft and doesn't mention the refurbishment to it and so but that would all be in the future you were asked to provide an existing fire safety
02:44:34 asked to provide an existing fire safety strategy for the building and my question really quite simply is how could you produce a reliable safety strategy for the client so that the occupants of the building would be safe without for example knowing where the
02:44:47 without for example knowing where the the AOV system worked properly
02:44:51 my answer to that really is because the document wasn't intended to look at the maintenance of of the building that was for the fire risk which is which is clearing the fire risk
02:45:03 which is which is clearing the fire risk assessment that that's the maintenance and management and operation of the building is is it's an it's an integral part of that of that process that's what
02:45:14 part of that of that process that's what you're doing a fire risk assessment fire safety strategy looks at the design of the building and whether that building can then be managed successfully for
02:45:25 can then be managed successfully for that design rather than looking at it from a point of view of the of the management procedures and the and the maintenance that's it almost becomes a hybrid if you will with a fire risk
02:45:37 hybrid if you will with a fire risk assessment which is why I'm kind of differentiating between what we were doing for a strategy and what I would consider to be part of a full audit which it was never intended to be so
02:45:50 which it was never intended to be so that's why we wouldn't have asked for those matters I mean the fire strategy assessment sorry the fire risk assessment but you had on the 13th of
02:46:01 assessment but you had on the 13th of August was dated the 29th of December 2010 so it was nearly two years out of date by the time you've got it ok well we can see that 20 months or so out of date would you not want would you not
02:46:14 date would you not want would you not have wanted to have had updating maintenance information about for example that the lifts or the AOV system so that you knew the current state of
02:46:25 so that you knew the current state of those fire safety devices or measures from which you could build a reliable safety strategy again I would say that
02:46:38 safety strategy again I would say that as long as we had the infrastructure and that infrastructure has been you know maintained by the responsible people which is you know was one of the
02:46:50 which is you know was one of the assumptions of the strategy then we wouldn't delve into the service records etc of of various individual components of the building does that explain why
02:47:02 of the building does that explain why you didn't ask for training materials yes this is the same principle or this fire safety organizational structure for those responsible for the building it would it that's a matter for the fire
02:47:14 it would it that's a matter for the fire risk assessment or a full list of active and passive fire protection measures and their status again that's part that that would be part of the of the ferrous fire
02:47:25 would be part of the of the ferrous fire safety strategy and their component parts of it but it's that they others know we wouldn't necessarily ask for those in that not depth mr. chairman
02:47:39 those in that not depth mr. chairman just two more questions if I may before the break did you request information about the current evacuation policy at the time was this post or after I'd received the fire safety fire risk at
02:47:52 received the fire safety fire risk at the time you sent your draft report to dr. Barker on the 15th of August and so yes my understanding was and that it was a remaining place strategy for the resi
02:48:03 a remaining place strategy for the resi and will have been simultaneous for the rest of the moment and did you none derstand what he what it relied on the stay-put strategy yes what was that a high degree compartment ation and
02:48:15 high degree compartment ation and various and various fire safety measures in relation to the fire service facilities and ventilation of the of the
02:48:26 facilities and ventilation of the of the lobby thank you mr. Cooney that mr. chairman that is a convenient moment for a break I've come to a new topic yes thank you very much we're going to have
02:48:38 thank you very much we're going to have a break now so you and others can get some lunch will resume at 2 o'clock please and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
02:49:02 please