Survivor Rania Ibrahim Yahya gives evidence about her experience during the Grenfell Tower fire from flat 152 on the 18th floor, including refurbishment failures, lack of fire safety advice, and her escape with her children.
00:00:10 to say something for me
00:00:14 good afternoon ladies and gentlemen as you will but not have realized I've directed that the next witness should give her evidence from behind the screen so I'm afraid you simply have a view of
00:00:25 so I'm afraid you simply have a view of the screen as far as she's concerned yes mr. Bennett mr. Channing it afternoon and I now call our next witness miss ravier yaya rue is already in in place
00:00:36 ravier yaya rue is already in in place yes thank you I swear by Allah I swear by Amma that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be
00:00:47 that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth good thank you very much
00:01:03 yes it is yo yo good afternoon I hope you can hear me yeah can I say first of all and thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and giving us your
00:01:14 to the inquiry and giving us your assistance in our investigations it is very much appreciated and can I start by asking you first of all for your full name
00:01:21 name it's Rob yo-yo now I know that some of my questions may be difficult for you to answer
00:01:28 answer bringing back that heartbreaking and terrible night for you so if you need a break at any time all you have to do is indicate and we can take a break and we will take measures to take a break what
00:01:40 will take measures to take a break what we're going to try to do is to sit to take evidence for 45 minutes or so and then take a 15-minute break okay so as to give you a break and to give an opportunity for people to leave the room
00:01:51 opportunity for people to leave the room and then come back into the room that says to preserve the arrangements that we've got in place okay I should just also say my questions are supposed to be short and simple sometimes they don't turn out that way
00:02:03 sometimes they don't turn out that way so if you want me to repeat the question or ask it in a different way and very happy to do that okay okay I should just also say that sometimes when I'm when you're answering I'm looking at the screen or at my notes
00:02:15 I'm looking at the screen or at my notes that doesn't mean I'm not listening to you I am very much thank you very much now you've done I think to witness statements for the inquiry yeah can I
00:02:26 statements for the inquiry yeah can I just show you the first one please and read that into the record that's iws five zeroes for nine eight and they'll appear on the screen in front of you on your desk there is this the first page of your first statement
00:02:37 the first page of your first statement that you've made for the inquiry yes can I then ask you please to look at the last page of that statement which is page nine and you can see that that's
00:02:48 page nine and you can see that that's that bears a date of the 16th of May 2018 and there's a signature there can you confirm that that's your signature yes I can you have you had an opportunity to read this statement recently yes and can you confirm that
00:03:02 recently yes and can you confirm that the contents are true yes thank you now you've made a supplementary statement as well and the reference to that is iws quadruple zero one for four can I ask you to look at the
00:03:14 for four can I ask you to look at the first page of that please that's now on the screen it consists of seven pages and there's a signature and a date I think on each page and it's dated the 18th of October 2018
00:03:25 18th of October 2018 can you please look at page seven which is the last page and there's a signature there can you confirm that that's your signature it is thank you and have you
00:03:36 signature it is thank you and have you had an opportunity to read this supplementary statement recently yes I and can you confirm that the contents are true yes thank you now I think you've got one exhibit to this statement which is labeled appendix
00:03:48 this statement which is labeled appendix one and that's I WS quadruple 0 1 144 which is at page 8 if we just turned that up can you just identify that for us and that is a floor plan of your flat
00:04:02 us and that is a floor plan of your flat flat 1 5 2 on the 18th floor of Granville Tower as it existed as at the night of the fire I think is that right yes yeah yes now um
00:04:18 yes yeah yes now um Monsieur I'm going to ask you sorry you want to have another another closer look at it and it looks like be puzzled no no no it's fine I thought that said bedroom and it said bathroom so it says I want
00:04:35 and it said bathroom so it says I want to ask you first if I may some questions of background it's right I think that in June 2017 you lived at flat 152 Granville Tower on the 18th floor yes
00:04:48 Granville Tower on the 18th floor yes yes and I think you'd previously lived in flat 45 on the what was on the fourth floor of grenfell Tower yes they did here how long did you live in flat 45 4
00:05:04 my mum and dad moved in when I was think one and they moved out when I was about 12 and did you live with your parents
00:05:15 12 and did you live with your parents all that time yeah at that time you and do you remember when you moved back into flat one five two back into Grenfell tower moved to flat one five two yeah I
00:05:27 tower moved to flat one five two yeah I moved in my daughter was just turning two so is about 2002 just 2008 I'd say
00:05:39 two so is about 2002 just 2008 I'd say yes and at that stage who did you live with at that time when I moved to Grandpa's house me my husband and my little girl at that times used to write
00:05:50 little girl at that times used to write and then you had more children after that yes and they lived with you yes a black one five - yep now I think you mentioned having in your statement having a lot of family living close by
00:06:02 having a lot of family living close by yes is that your mother and father yeah when they moved from grateful they moved to Barrington walk which is very local still right and whether they were they living at Behrend and walking at the
00:06:13 living at Behrend and walking at the time of the fire yes now before I turn to the events of the night of the fire I want to ask you one or two questions about the refurbishment okay at
00:06:25 about the refurbishment okay at paragraph ten of your statement page three if you can please be shown that
00:06:33 you describe there the change to your front door that was made during the refurbishment and you say the new front
00:06:45 refurbishment and you say the new front door looked better than the old one and had a pump inside it which made it feel heavier because it gave the door resistance when you opened it the door closed automatically at first and had a letter flat and a peephole it was drafty
00:06:58 letter flat and a peephole it was drafty and I don't remember there having been a draft seal unfortunately the new door soon broke you say it came off its hinges and jammed so he couldn't close it first of all and I'll continue with
00:07:12 it first of all and I'll continue with the rest of that paragraph in a moment when you change the front door were you asked to change it by anybody they said they were changing the whole buildings front doors right who's
00:07:23 whole buildings front doors right who's the VAE TMO so did you get a choice no it was it was inevitable that everyone was changing their doors so he was told
00:07:34 was changing their doors so he was told you need to change our door to make it about fire safety fire safety doors right
00:07:41 right did the TMO tell you that the doors were going to be fire safety doors yes do you remember when after the door was fitted there were any gaps around the door I
00:07:55 don't I don't remember you say it was drafty yeah well that I felt the draft is coming from or from the bottom but because they
00:08:06 from or from the bottom but because they we had I don't know how to explain it there was meant to be a flap at the bottom of the door so it wouldn't let the draft in but our one wasn't they were meant to come back to fixing they
00:08:17 were meant to come back to fixing they do you didn't write and does that mean that there was still a draft coming in or a draft that could come in as the night of the fire yeah
00:08:29 night of the fire yeah okay now you also say that the the door started off being self closing but then broke how long after the door was installed did the door break no more
00:08:42 installed did the door break no more than two three months and you go on to say we reported this to the TMO this is five lines up from the bottom of
00:08:53 five lines up from the bottom of paragraph 10 and to a woman from writin but no one ever came to fix it instead bello had to take the out the pole from the center of the door which makes it a fire door just first of all Bella's your
00:09:04 fire door just first of all Bella's your husband yes and we use there when your husband removed the pole yes do you remember what he did because the door wouldn't and after a while it would you
00:09:16 wouldn't and after a while it would you got worse the door wouldn't allow us to close it so it kept it had to stay ajar so we needed to when we needed to go out or close the door behind us yeah there was a hole that was in between the doors
00:09:27 was a hole that was in between the doors in between the and yet I don't know explain it there was something in between the door hinges and he had to remove it right it's like
00:09:38 and he had to remove it right it's like a long pole I see and did the pole go from the the door between the door between the door and the yeah so the edge of the the inner edge of the door yes exactly and the door jamb of the
00:09:49 yes exactly and the door jamb of the side of the doorway exactly oh I see and it went from one to the other yes and that broke today yeah that broke so yes I pull it out pull it out because it had broken Ana jammed in incident yeah okay did you tell the TMO that you your
00:10:03 okay did you tell the TMO that you your husband had removed the door closer I told them yes do you remember when you told them I don't remember okay what did they say they said they were gonna send
00:10:15 they say they said they were gonna send someone to come and fix it and did they know were you ever told by the tno that
00:10:26 know were you ever told by the tno that it was important for fire safety that the door should be a self closing door no as at the night of the fire was it a self closing door no do you know whether
00:10:39 self closing door no do you know whether any of your neighbors on your floor or in fact anywhere else in the in the building had doors which didn't automatically closed by themselves
00:10:54 now in June 2017 your flat was on the 18th floor I think it's it's right that the floor numbering changed during or
00:11:07 the floor numbering changed during or after the refurbishment yes that right yes it did and I think before the refurbishment your flat it was on the 15 people in floor yeah yes and you say that a paragraph 3 of your statement can I ask you this when when the floor numbering
00:11:20 you this when when the floor numbering was changed were the changes in the lobbies marked up on each floor no I remember no right now can I ask you to
00:11:33 remember no right now can I ask you to look at paragraph 11 of your statement you say this is page 3 when they renumber the floors during the refurbishment the new signs for each floor in the stairwell were not easy to
00:11:45 floor in the stairwell were not easy to read they weren't even proper signs the numbers were just stenciled on to the walls can you describe how big these stenciled figures were in centimeters
00:12:00 I'll tell you about 10 centimeters right and were they easy to read were they easily visible because it was it was more just hand-drawn it wasn't like
00:12:11 more just hand-drawn it wasn't like proper stenciled it was just sort of like as if you would do graffiti with a spray ink spray right okay so did they
00:12:24 spray ink spray right okay so did they did the sizes of the numbers vary yeah from floor to floor it was handwritten so it wouldn't been exact same right and
00:12:35 so it wouldn't been exact same right and during your your time at groennfell tower after the refurbishment did you get a good chance to go up and down the stairs so you could get a good idea of the numbering quite a lot yes right why would that be because the lifter was
00:12:46 would that be because the lifter was constantly not working right now a paragraph 13 of your statement you deal with the subject of the windows and you
00:12:59 with the subject of the windows and you say during the refurbishment ride and replaced the windows but the new windows gave trouble almost immediately first of all can I ask were all the windows in your in your flat replaced
00:13:11 windows in your in your flat replaced yes and you say you experienced problems almost immediately and then you go on to say the handles didn't work properly you explain that and you go on also to say
00:13:23 explain that and you go on also to say that it a few lines on from that the kitchen windows were very drafty and the windows in the sitting room are a bit drafty as well can you see where you said that in a statement
00:13:35 can I ask first of all to for you to be shown the floorplan of your flat which is iaws 1:144 page 8 which you've exhibited to your statement your second
00:13:47 exhibited to your statement your second statement we looked at it a little bit before by LWS 1:144 page 8 can you point
00:14:02 before by LWS 1:144 page 8 can you point out on this plan because I know you're familiar with this with which the which windows you experienced drafts from the kitchen window problem with the kitchen
00:14:15 kitchen window problem with the kitchen window yes the living room when two of the living room window that are yeah whether the one that are closest together there are two windows that are
00:14:27 together there are two windows that are closest together so the ones on the left of the dot on the corners yeah no I see so the ones at the top left and to the right of the top of the corner on the left
00:14:37 left that's one yes and then it's right so for the transcript that's the northwest corner of the building the window to the
00:14:49 corner of the building the window to the immediate south of the northwest corner and the window to the immediate east of the northwest yes yes okay now
00:15:01 of those windows which was the most drafty I say the kitchen the kitchen and do you remember where the draught was coming in from it was coming from the
00:15:15 coming in from it was coming from the frame but also had the problem with the extractor fan that was on the window okay because that was broken so it would the drafts would come in through there okay
00:15:24 okay focusing on the frame and just focusing on the kitchen window whereabouts was the draft coming from around the frame
00:15:35 the draft coming from around the frame she was I I can't remember I just remember there being a problem right what about the living room windows do you remember where the draft was coming from with those the bottom might I say
00:15:48 from with those the bottom might I say because I we used to always put towels at the bottom of it because so to keep the room warm right and you say at the bottom is that bottom of the window frame right and I think each window
00:16:00 frame right and I think each window after the refurbishment had a window sill yes white plastic yes window sill did you put the towels on there or denieth that yeah on that because to block the rocks at the traffic coming from I see did that help it did but it
00:16:14 from I see did that help it did but it wasn't a practical no but just trying to get an idea of where the air was coming in from that hill was identify the place where the air was coming in yes what
00:16:26 where the air was coming in yes what about other windows in the flat the bedrooms very drafty did you report this draft problem with the windows to the
00:16:37 draft problem with the windows to the TMA yeah reported to Moe and also other writer contractors were still on site I spoke to them and told them as well right while they were still on site yes
00:16:48 right while they were still on site yes was that towards the end of the refurbishment or or earlier than that
00:16:56 I'd say probably instead they were still there for a while longer so I would say probably it's still in the middle of the reverb right okay and what did first of all what did the TMO do about the drafty
00:17:08 all what did the TMO do about the drafty windows they said they make a note of it and send someone from ridin who should deal with it and did they they don't know secondly what
00:17:20 did they they don't know secondly what did ride into about it ridin came the first time put some cedar came and said they were gonna they tried to seal it then they were said they were
00:17:33 to seal it then they were said they were gonna come and change the extractor fan for us in the kitchen they didn't do that right so just going back to trying
00:17:44 that right so just going back to trying to seal it did ride and succeed in sealing know is it pure straight off right what what did what the this how what they sealed it with okay do you
00:17:55 what they sealed it with okay do you remember what they they sealed it remember what is called I don't did it you did it look like a what did it look like well perhaps I should ask you did
00:18:06 like well perhaps I should ask you did you see them at work trying to seal your windows up yeah I did was in and out the room yeah okay do you remember what they were using it was like a little gun thing and sort of to seal around they
00:18:17 thing and sort of to seal around they use it for I don't I don't know it's called for no that's right and how long after they'd done their work did the whatever they put in peel off within the
00:18:29 whatever they put in peel off within the week right did you get back to riding or TMS yeah spoke to riding again on-site to see if they can and again they said they were gonna send someone and that
00:18:40 they were gonna send someone and that didn't ever happened after that okay so
00:18:45 okay you've discussed the handles as well did those ever get fixed no that handles is always a problem from the beginning it was it wouldn't lock properly and it was I was worried about
00:18:56 properly and it was I was worried about the kids and stuff because it didn't it didn't close properly with the handle so I didn't firmly call it um go all the way it would always just stop halfway as you tried to close it right right okay
00:19:08 you tried to close it right right okay and the extractor fan can you you said it broke what happened to it you remember
00:19:18 I can't remember how what happened to no did it come out of its mounting or did it did it just not what did it does not function
00:19:24 function it wasn't functioning from the beginning they didn't ever function for us and it solved it's all come out of its place and we push I pushed it back in but it was loose as well as where it was meant
00:19:36 was loose as well as where it was meant to be stay it was right okay so that was their air coming through the circular gap where the gap where he was supposed to be okay and was that that was that was it was like that on the
00:19:49 was that was it was like that on the night of the fire was it yes and the drafts that you've explained in your statement and have told us about this afternoon were they there at the night as at the night of the fire as well because it was a summer day so it wasn't
00:20:01 because it was a summer day so it wasn't we didn't I didn't notice to be honest much of a draft but in terms of the gaps that you had felt it I think what you're telling us is there hadn't been effectively fixed before the night of
00:20:12 effectively fixed before the night of the fire
00:20:12 the fire no there wasn't fixed now okay um just going back a little bit in your statement if I can to page two please miss Yahya you say at paragraph seven
00:20:24 miss Yahya you say at paragraph seven and the bottom of that page I do not remember being given any fire advice when we signed our tenancy agreement or when we first moved in what about later
00:20:40 when we first moved in what about later on when you moved well let me just ask you this when you say when we first moved in was that a reference to when you moved in in a flat 45 or when you
00:20:51 you moved in in a flat 45 or when you moved to flat one or when I moved to flat one five two I was a child up when I was in 45 I wouldn't remember all right so it's this is 2008 then yes right so what about later than 2008 were
00:21:03 right so what about later than 2008 were you ever given any fire safety advice after 2008 no can I ask the witness please be shown inq 93 now this is a
00:21:18 please be shown inq 93 now this is a fire safety notice from floor three which is a photograph taken by the inquiries experts have you ever seen this sign before yes
00:21:29 have you ever seen this sign before yes I have and where did you see it at the bottom of the lobby where just before you go into the lifts say bottom of the lobby what on the ground floor of the Town Hall
00:21:38 Town Hall did you see it anywhere else in the building I only ever only ever think I saw it there right not on your own floor I don't remember seeing it okay do you
00:21:51 I don't remember seeing it okay do you remember seeing it on any other floor in the tower apart from the ground floor no I think you remember seeing it in the ground floor um I know this is a difficult question
00:22:02 difficult question perhaps because timings are difficult but how long before the fire in June 2017 do you remember seeing the sign not
00:22:14 2017 do you remember seeing the sign not long maybe about a few weeks before right did you did you notice it suddenly appearing or is it something that you've always been aware of always been aware
00:22:25 always been aware of always been aware of it because you know when you're just standing waiting for the lift you'd saw just a wonders and just us reading to waste time yes and that leads to this
00:22:36 waste time yes and that leads to this question did you when your eye wandered on to it to do it did you actually ever read it yes and in general terms what did you what was the takeaway message
00:22:47 did you what was the takeaway message you got from this sign what do you think it was telling you to stay put in the event of an event of a fire right
00:23:02 event of an event of a fire right apart from this notice were you aware of any information from any organization or any individual person about what you should do if there was a fire in the
00:23:13 should do if there was a fire in the block no so this was it was it yeah it's the Information Act now at paragraph 8 of your statement that on the next page page 3 you say this is your first
00:23:27 page 3 you say this is your first statement you say I thought we had a fire alarm in the lobby on our floor for the whole floor but on the night of the fire I didn't hear it go off did did
00:23:40 fire I didn't hear it go off did did anybody tell you that there was a fire alarm in your Lobby no I just remember seeing it okay can you describe what you saw that you thought was a fire alarm I
00:23:54 saw something on top of the ceiling just sort of hang him down and he was he was like in it was all caged so I think they were worried about if someone hits it or
00:24:05 were worried about if someone hits it or not the over takes the battery out so it had sort of like a cage on it it's boxed okay can I ask I'm gonna show you a picture and this I think is the first proper picture of inside the tower like
00:24:18 proper picture of inside the tower like is that okay are you all right to be showing photographs of inside the tower yes it's not there's no fire in it or anything like that okay this is BL a quadruple
00:24:29 like that okay this is BL a quadruple zero two five one three
00:24:39 now that is a photograph taken from floor six are you able to identify in that photograph what you are referring
00:24:51 that photograph what you are referring to is the fire alarm cage or well it's not it's a cage there it's not it's just it's exposed there so it's not just the
00:25:04 it's exposed there so it's not just the one is the round thing in the middle the round thing in the middle of what in the middle of that just between the two lifts there's that round circular on the
00:25:17 lifts there's that round circular on the ceiling and the ceiling right that's what you thought was the communal fire alarm yes okay did anybody ever tell you what that actually was no right so it
00:25:29 what that actually was no right so it was your assumption that it was a far along yes okay paragraph 9 the same page
00:25:42 along yes okay paragraph 9 the same page page 3 is where you say this ironically the day before the fire someone from the London Fire Brigade came to check our flat he checked the battery on the smoke alarms check that the alarms worked and
00:25:54 alarms check that the alarms worked and asked me to sign a paper and that was it when I asked him why he was there he said it was part of a routine check for the whole building
00:26:05 did you did did he confirm to you that the fire yup these smoke alarms in your in your flat were working yes they were did he give you any advice about what to
00:26:18 did he give you any advice about what to do in the event of a fire no did you discuss communal fire alarms no do you
00:26:29 discuss communal fire alarms no do you remember before the refurbishment and in fact going back to 2008 when you moved back into grenfell tower and went to flat 152 do you remember whether there
00:26:40 flat 152 do you remember whether there was a communal fire alarm and the building at that point yes there was that's the one that so similar so with the woman that you just showed me right did you ever hear it go off no okay
00:26:54 it go off no okay not a slore right
00:27:01 I'm now going to turn to the night of the fire mr. IRA if I may and and start with with the some general questions but
00:27:14 with with the some general questions but first who was who was present in your flat on that night me and my three kids
00:27:22 now the paragraph 17 of your statement if you go to page five you explain what
00:27:33 if you go to page five you explain what happens in the evening and so you were out during the day and came home around 6:00 or 7:00 and didn't leave the flat again and your husband wasn't home and then you say at about 1:00 a.m. on the
00:27:47 then you say at about 1:00 a.m. on the morning of the 14th of June 2017 I heard commotion outside our block so I went to the window to see what was going on how do you remember that it was about 1:00
00:27:59 do you remember that it was about 1:00 a.m. because I picked up my phone to look at that time it was right will you and were you asleep at that stage will you still awake I probably just started to doze off okay
00:28:11 I probably just started to doze off okay and what about your children they were all in bed to sleep in okay in another room or in the same room in next door next door and just so I just sound clear which is your your
00:28:24 just sound clear which is your your bedroom is it the one closest to the living room or the one furthest away well it's farthest away so nearest the nearest the front door oh yeah right
00:28:33 and
00:28:36 you say you heard commotion outside your block would you remember where it was coming from it's coming from near the front of the building could you describe
00:28:47 front of the building could you describe the commotion there's talking honor and debt I heard firetruck what the siren no
00:28:58 debt I heard firetruck what the siren no not the siren just them you I don't know it just the noise of the firetruck as he's driving into the road right we
00:29:09 he's driving into the road right we could hear voices I could hear voices yeah yes I heard voices do you remember which window you looked out of I got up
00:29:21 which window you looked out of I got up and walked to the kitchen window right which is on the west side of the building yes the sunset side really okay why didn't you look out of your bedroom window I don't know I couldn't this
00:29:36 window I don't know I couldn't this because I had the bed sort of blocking it so I went to the other sizing okay and was the kitchen window open yes
00:29:49 we're any other windows in your flat open do you remember no I remember okay the bedroom my bedroom window was opened right do you you remember noticing any
00:30:01 right do you you remember noticing any signs of smoke or fire at that stage no now in your statement halfway down paragraph 17 you say when I
00:30:13 halfway down paragraph 17 you say when I looked out I could see one fire truck but couldn't see any fire so you're looking out your kitchen window in which direction did you look to see the fire truck as you look from the kitchen
00:30:29 truck as you look from the kitchen window you can actually see that whole road for the whole of the gravel road and so all it leads all the way underneath grateful tower itself so you could see you can see the walkways yes underneath it right I see could you see
00:30:41 underneath it right I see could you see what was going on
00:30:44 like I said only saw a fire truck and obviously people are outside yep and then you go on to say I called 999 straight away to find out if there was
00:30:55 straight away to find out if there was an emergency
00:30:58 now we've actually got your first 999 call transcript which is carries a time with 133 55 and I'm going to come back
00:31:12 with 133 55 and I'm going to come back to the detail of that in a minute but just in terms of timing are you are you sure that you called 999 straight away or was there a period of delay before you did or a period of time the past
00:31:24 you did or a period of time the past before you called 999 I my recollection is that I did call I had a phone I had a
00:31:35 is that I did call I had a phone I had a call before do you remember who it was what - London Fire Brigade yes do you remember what you were what happened on
00:31:47 remember what you were what happened on that call you say you called to find out if there was an emergency and you say in your statement they informed me that there was a fire on the fourth floor but that it was under control and we should stay inside our flat yes how confident
00:32:00 stay inside our flat yes how confident are you that that is what you remember of your first call I'm pretty confident that I had a phone call before 1:30 okay well we'll come back to see to look at
00:32:13 well we'll come back to see to look at the detail of the call that we do have a track record for in a moment before we do you describe I think waking up your children at this point because you wanted them to be alert in case we needed to evacuate quickly that's what
00:32:26 needed to evacuate quickly that's what you say in your statement there do you was it in your mind that you might need to evacuate quickly yes was that in your
00:32:38 to evacuate quickly yes was that in your mind before you made the 999 call or after you made the 999 call after I've made the no no no no all right so even though you were told that you should
00:32:50 though you were told that you should stay inside your flat you still thought you might need to have do it quickly yeah because I heard more fire brigade come in so I knew it wasn't I wasn't convinced that that it was just
00:33:01 I wasn't convinced that that it was just a small thing because other fire trucks kept coming I see and you say they can't cover could you see them coming yes right now you describe waking up your
00:33:15 right now you describe waking up your children and getting them them ready to leave did you do that before your your your on the first nine nine nine core or after best thing I remember doing that afterwards afterwards okay
00:33:39 did you at this point open your front door and look out into the communal lobby I think I remember by I can't
00:33:52 lobby I think I remember by I can't remember okay now on page five of your statement a little bit lower down paragraph 18 you say about 20 minutes later I looked outside my kitchen window
00:34:05 later I looked outside my kitchen window and I could see smoke lower down 20 minutes later to 20 minutes after what
00:34:16 minutes later to 20 minutes after what later than what I'm after waking up the kids I think okay
00:34:30 and you say you looked out of your kitchen window and you could see smoke lower down yes could you see where the smoke was coming from I couldn't see you
00:34:42 smoke was coming from I couldn't see you just I knew it's lower down I couldn't see where right
00:34:50 now your your kitchen I think I think I said earlier faces West I think actually it faces east doesn't it the Sun sunrise side okay you've described this make in
00:35:02 side okay you've described this make in your statement as gray rather than black do you remember how thick it was when you saw it first the first I'd seen smoking wasn't that thick it was just
00:35:13 smoking wasn't that thick it was just early stages I would say did it have a particular smell it smell of burnt plastic
00:35:21 plastic I remember that smell did it have any particular physical effect on you it made me it made me coffee made me wheeze because I've got asthma right you
00:35:34 wheeze because I've got asthma right you could ask me - yeah so I did come in house from looking outside the window coming in coughing right can I just ask you did you know if you don't want to
00:35:45 you did you know if you don't want to answer this you don't have to answer this but are you particularly sense because of your asking are you particularly sensitive to to dust or smoke yes I have a lot of triggers it's triggered my ass Mia right could you see
00:35:59 triggered my ass Mia right could you see any fire at that point no do you remember what the London Fire Brigade were doing at that point
00:36:08 okay I couldn't see clearly enough to see I just remember those a whole lot of them coming in and out their trucks
00:36:21 now that paragraph 20 of your statement
00:36:28 you say that your neighbor in flat 156 sha chair of the leaseholder association knocked on our door this is the bottom
00:36:41 knocked on our door this is the bottom of page 5 and told me that he and his wife are leaving that I should take the children and get out - now that's that said that when you refer to char is that
00:36:53 said that when you refer to char is that is that Shahid Ahmed yes and he's 4 flat 196 now what if you can help me just clear something up about that conversation 156 did I say
00:37:09 about that conversation 156 did I say he's going to the transcript is one nine one five six certainly I think I think I said one five six but mr. yo-yo can I just ask you if you can help me clear
00:37:20 just ask you if you can help me clear something up about that conversation can I ask you to be showing your supplemental statement and go please to paragraph five
00:37:34 you you you say in that paragraph after that call and that's the first 999 call
00:37:46 that call and that's the first 999 call that you're referring to a paragraph four of that statement you say I woke the kids and tell them to get dressed in case we had to leave the building my
00:37:57 case we had to leave the building my children were awakened dressed when Shah and his wife not on our door they both looked alarmed it was Charles wife who spoke with me and that's I think sayyida
00:38:09 spoke with me and that's I think sayyida that's her name I think is yes do you remember who you actually spoke to whether it was sharp or sayyida at that stage I see I my head I spoke to Sayid
00:38:25 stage I see I my head I spoke to Sayid up that's how I remember it exam right so when you get back to paragraph 20 of your statement and you you see you say
00:38:37 your statement and you you see you say there that Sean knocked on your door and told me that he and his wife are leaving and that I should take the children get out - is that shall speaking or as si leader speaking no that side of speaking
00:38:50 leader speaking no that side of speaking was shall there as well he wasn't it he was near with her yeah he was never near the fire exit door yes I see he was there no you then
00:39:14 well you that you then described a conversation and both in this statement and in your second statement did either shower or cyi to tell you why they were
00:39:27 shower or cyi to tell you why they were leaving from what I remember he said the fire was spread out but I saw anything I
00:39:40 fire was spread out but I saw anything I remember if I spread up did you consider going with them I couldn't go with them
00:39:52 going with them I couldn't go with them I knew I couldn't because I had three kids I was worried so did you I didn't
00:40:03 kids I was worried so did you I didn't know it was safe for us to stay or I didn't know what was on the stairs okay at the time they knocked on on your door were there any signs of smoke in your flat no and there signs of fire either
00:40:15 flat no and there signs of fire either no fire no smoke when they knocked on the door did you see any signs of smoke in the communal Lobby no the only little bit of smoke that was coming through is from the stairs that I exit door right
00:40:29 from the stairs that I exit door right at that point do you remember whether you heard the sound of that the smoke extraction system or the ventilation system running no you don't know how thick was the
00:40:42 no you don't know how thick was the smoke in the communal Lobby at the moment when you opened the door to show anger
00:40:47 anger it wasn't bad not bad no do you think its lights were still on oh you know I we spoke for a few minutes did it make did you have any physical
00:40:58 did it make did you have any physical effect on you even though it wasn't bad oh I don't think is that I wouldn't know because I was coughing before that so okay did it smell the same as the smell of the smoke that you do smell from this
00:41:10 of the smoke that you do smell from this smokes much stronger
00:41:19 now we know that Shahid and cider are made left the building at about 1:30
00:41:31 made left the building at about 1:30 2:00 a.m. because that's what the CCTV has showed and if we look at paragraph three of your second statement by WS 1
00:41:42 three of your second statement by WS 1 144 page 2 you say in the last sentence
00:41:54 144 page 2 you say in the last sentence or the last but one sentence after referring to them leaving the tower at approximately 1:30 - you say say my first 999 call would have been before
00:42:05 first 999 call would have been before then I remember that when I made my first 999 call on 14th of June much-older was still asleep now it's not
00:42:16 much-older was still asleep now it's not a look at the 999 call with you to see if we can sort out a potential timing issue
00:42:22 issue it's lfb 6 6 2
00:42:39 and you can see and this is a transcript of the call and you can see at the top of the page there's a line of numbers next to the word event and the second
00:42:56 next to the word event and the second number in from the left from the right is oh one thirty three fifty five and that's the time at which the call started and it lasts one minute and 21 seconds and it starts by saying operator
00:43:09 seconds and it starts by saying operator hello Fire Brigade caller yell alright there's a fire in my building operator what Road what building are you in Grenville tower grapple Terra okay we are there we're dealing with it okay and then caller I'm scared and I've got
00:43:20 then caller I'm scared and I've got three young kids and I'm pregnant I don't know what to do No can you get to a window get some fresh air and it continues over the page and what I've
00:43:32 continues over the page and what I've shown you so far does this ring a bell with you as being your first call no I think I had before this another phone
00:43:43 think I had before this another phone right okay
00:43:51 and
00:43:55 so if there was a call before this you would think this is your second is yes this is a second one right okay you then go on to say to the control room
00:44:08 go on to say to the control room operator on page two
00:44:15 halfway down you say are we safe you ask are we safe and the operator says I obviously am I can't um I don't know I
00:44:27 obviously am I can't um I don't know I don't know I mean if if you can get to the window and get some air there's no smoke in my house yet you say but and the operator says there's no smoke in
00:44:39 the operator says there's no smoke in your house yet and the you say no but I try to get out to go through the fire escape and there's just thick black smoke just just pausing pausing there do
00:44:53 smoke just just pausing pausing there do you remember telling the operator that you try to get out through the fire escape
00:44:57 escape I don't remember it's only now that I'm over there through the transcript that I know I said it okay had you actually tried to get out of your flat and cross
00:45:09 tried to get out of your flat and cross the lobby to get to the to get to the stairs at that stage I must have done but I just don't remember okay when you
00:45:21 refer to thick black smoke was that well where was that it'll be in the stairwell in the stairwell okay now let's just try
00:45:35 in the stairwell okay now let's just try and piece that together paragraph seven of your second statement so we're still within your second statement I WS 1 1 4 2 page 3 you've you're dealing with the
00:45:47 2 page 3 you've you're dealing with the transcript of this call and you say a third of the way down I believe I said there was black smoke in the fire escape
00:45:58 there was black smoke in the fire escape because at some point when I was speaking with Charles wife char was standing in the doorway to the stairwell holding the door to the stairwell open stood the doorway to the stairwell is only a couple of meters from my front
00:46:09 only a couple of meters from my front door I was standing on my doorstep speaking with Charles wife and I think you remember looking past chart into the stairwell and seeing thick black smoke
00:46:21 stairwell and seeing thick black smoke in the stairwell so that being your your recollection when you say thick black smoke on the
00:46:34 when you say thick black smoke on the call are you telling the operator that it's in the stairwell yes I think so yes okay what about the lobby itself at that
00:46:47 okay what about the lobby itself at that stage was there smoking the lobby it was only coming from the stairwell well if the door was open okay and when you saw
00:47:00 the door was open okay and when you saw the thick black smoke in the stairwell do you remember where you were standing outside of my front door okay how far
00:47:11 outside of my front door okay how far outside your front door cuz like I said between my front door and the fire exit to the stairwell is it's very is this
00:47:24 to the stairwell is it's very is this very short distance so I was probably standing halfway between between my front door and the stairwell so it's like I would say it's the meter between my front door and okay did you get a
00:47:38 my front door and okay did you get a good look into the stairwell yeah you did
00:47:45 say this this call at 1:33 must have been after you'd seen the thick black smoke in the stairwell yes as I said I knew there's another one because another phone call which I made to 999 because
00:47:57 phone call which I made to 999 because that was after this was after my kids woke up after the neighbor knocked on the door yes and indeed in paragraph three of your second statement you you do say the no
00:48:10 second statement you you do say the no record seems to have been identified of your 999 calls prior to char knocking on my door but you recall at least one yeah
00:48:21 mr. channel 8 we've been going for I think just a little bit over 45 minutes yes might be now there's a convenient and it's convenient certainly from my
00:48:32 and it's convenient certainly from my point of view
00:48:36 well we'll resume at 20 past is that about right mr. minute yes indeed it is time for people to the ushers will give you some directions in a minute okay
00:48:48 you some directions in a minute okay thank you twenty past three be pleased and yes mr. show has just ought to explain what should happen we have to think to clear the room I know that explain and no think it has
00:49:00 I know that explain and no think it has been explained I'm sorry I need to explain because the witness is giving evidence from behind the screen I'm afraid we've got to adopt slightly different arrangements no for having our
00:49:12 different arrangements no for having our short break I'm going to ask everyone to leave the room as quickly as possible please after I've cut out and to write these there's near danger
00:49:23 and to write these there's near danger and when you're asked when the witness has got back in the room after I've prayed then to come back in as quickly as possible all right I'll now make way for the rest of you
00:55:12 you
01:03:33 alright ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes mr. Bennett this yo-yo thank you very much for coming coming back to us can I just and get back to the this question of your first 999 call when you
01:03:45 question of your first 999 call when you made your first nine nine nine call do you remember whether the person you spoke to identified themselves no no I remember now they didn't say London Fire Brigade or
01:03:56 they didn't say London Fire Brigade or oh sure it was just the operates as far as I know right okay do you remember whether the operator was a like a telephone operator or a fire brigade operator I'm not sure
01:04:07 or a fire brigade operator I'm not sure okay okay
01:04:09 okay okay now after shaheed insider our mid left from your front door what did you do next
01:04:19 I went we've got the kids who went back into the our living room it was in their nest one office obviously the whole
01:04:31 nest one office obviously the whole family phone calls were coming in I was getting phone calls from outside people from the outside
01:04:40 and I think they told you you say there's a paragraph 19 of your first statement that the police were evacuating Behrend and walk do you remember that yeah because my I spoke to
01:04:54 remember that yeah because my I spoke to my mum and she told me yes she was evacuating than she would the I remember speaking to did your your your mum or other family members give you any advice about what you should do they were just
01:05:06 about what you should do they were just all just shouting to get out yeah and
01:05:12 did you tell them well what was your response to that at I think I just told
01:05:23 response to that at I think I just told them that I was told to stay it was told to stay I was safer inside my flat okay
01:05:39 we've seen the you will you've told us about the first 999 call where you were told to stay put we've seen the transcript for this some of the transcript for the second 999 call the
01:05:52 transcript for the second 999 call the one at 133 on 33 55 can I just take you back to that again it's I tell FB 6 6 to a page 2 and at
01:06:11 it's I tell FB 6 6 to a page 2 and at the bottom of that page you can see that the operator says is that the so if you can stay in your flat and block it up ok just try to keep calm and get some fresh air by the window and top of them the
01:06:23 air by the window and top of them the next page you say ok operator yes and what floor are you on I'm on the 18th please send someone okay I'll let them know you're there ok all right ok all
01:06:34 know you're there ok all right ok all right thank you bye what did you think you were supposed to do as a result of
01:06:45 you were supposed to do as a result of that call so wait someone would come right and what influence did the advice he received on that call I've just shown
01:06:56 he received on that call I've just shown you from the operator have on what you did what you did next it had a lot because I stayed I did what they said and stayed right
01:07:13 and when your family phoned I think you said that you told them that you'd been told to stay by 999 is that yes to be clear is that right yes yeah now going back to your first
01:07:24 yes yeah now going back to your first witness statement at page 6 you say at
01:07:35 witness statement at page 6 you say at about 2 a.m. two firefighters one male and one female knocked on our door they were wearing breathing apparatus sets they came inside as soon as I opened the door and told me to hurry up and shut
01:07:47 door and told me to hurry up and shut the door quickly as by this time there was dark thick smoke in the 18th floor lobby yes and then you go on to describe and they came into the flat and took off
01:07:58 and they came into the flat and took off their helmets asked if you're okay asked how many of there of you there were yes just taking this in stages first of all do you remember to remember
01:08:11 first of all do you remember to remember why they told you to hurry because the smoke was gonna come into my flat right did you get a good look at the smoke when you open the door to them yes can you describe it for us it was black
01:08:23 you describe it for us it was black those you can't see beyond anything right could you see any lights out in the lawn no there was no lights lights have gone off by there you say the lights had gone off
01:08:34 lights had gone off yeah because prior to that when the neighbor knocked on my door there were still lights were still on right did you could you tell whether the lights had gone off or whether the light
01:08:45 lights had gone off or whether the light would affect the smoke was so thick that you just couldn't see the lights it could be just I don't know you don't know okay do you remember smelling the smoke yes can you describe the smell for
01:08:58 smoke yes can you describe the smell for us it was
01:09:01 us it was it was bad it was very thick and it smelt more the smell of strong burning plastic was more yeah I don't know yeah yeah
01:09:12 yeah did it have any physical effect on you yeah I made me cough right my coffin it just got worse okay any other effects mike is my son as well he was coughing
01:09:24 mike is my son as well he was coughing because he's got asthma - alright okay what about your eyes no okay okay
01:09:39 between the time when char head inside Arman left you and these two firefighters arriving did you look into the communal Lobby I don't think I did
01:09:56 the communal Lobby I don't think I did okay
01:09:57 okay now you've said in your statement that the two firefighters arrived around 2:00 a.m. how do you recall the time as around 2:00 a.m. I'm not like I said
01:10:15 around 2:00 a.m. I'm not like I said earlier approximately I wouldn't wasn't 100% sure okay but it was a good I only guessed it because I knew from phone calls that I was getting from his
01:10:26 phone calls that I was getting from his family but I would say was a good 20 25 minutes between side-eye knocking on the door to them firefighters coming and how
01:10:40 door to them firefighters coming and how long after the 999 call we've just seen the one made that you made at 1:33 do you think those firefighters arrived I
01:10:53 don't know oh sure
01:11:02 and when the two firefighters knocked on your door what were the conditions like in your flat I didn't have smoke yet as
01:11:15 in your flat I didn't have smoke yet as from the window you could see started to see sparks and things I don't know smoke was getting higher more visible from the windows little sparks you could see
01:11:30 windows little sparks you could see coming which windows could you see the sparks coming from more so from the kitchen window right
01:11:44 and any smoke coming in at that stage from that window not not that I can recall okay and with the sparks coming
01:11:59 recall okay and with the sparks coming up or coming down or across do you remember which direction they were coming from at that time I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to guess which way they
01:12:11 wouldn't be able to guess which way they were coming I couldn't do you remember how long these two firefighters stayed in your flat for no more than five minutes right how far into the flat did
01:12:25 minutes right how far into the flat did they come they came all the way into the living room okay do they sit down no okay they just sit sit up right and you say in your
01:12:36 sit sit up right and you say in your statement at paragraph 21 they asked if you were okay and they asked how many of us there were what did you tell them I told them this one out of three kids and
01:12:48 told them this one out of three kids and I also told them that I was pregnant you did tell them that you were pregnant yes okay and where were your children at that stage they were with me through with you okay
01:13:02 and you then say in the middle of that parent st. paragraph they said they were going to check on the neighbors on our floor and that they would get us out they would get us all out together yes
01:13:14 they would get us all out together yes did they say if they would get you out personally or that some other firefighters in general would be coming up to get you they just said that we're
01:13:25 up to get you they just said that we're going to knock on the neighbor's door and we'll get you all out together I didn't emphasize whether it'll be them or someone else I said we'll get you all out together okay do they explain to you how I presumed it was them did they
01:13:40 how I presumed it was them did they explain to you how they were going to get you out no did you have a conversation with them about how you were going to get down the stairwell no did they explain to you the conditions in the stairs no okay
01:14:03 and you then say they were there for five minutes and you pack some things up and at the end of that paragraph you say then we waited but I never saw those or any other firefighters again on our
01:14:14 any other firefighters again on our floor after that point yes how long after they left did you realize that they weren't going to be coming back or
01:14:25 they weren't going to be coming back or might not be coming back the thing is with that I I stayed in that flat for
01:14:37 with that I I stayed in that flat for another after that another ten minutes after that and I was thought I wasn't going to wait for them because I was forced to leave because if I came into my kitchen yes okay I'll come back to
01:14:53 my kitchen yes okay I'll come back to that in a moment before I do
01:14:57 firefighter Lawson says that he and a female firefighter came did come back again and told you that people were
01:15:10 again and told you that people were coming for you that's that's his evidence in his witness statement can you comment on that he's lying he didn't say that he didn't say he didn't come back again all right
01:15:21 back again all right and well you say he's lying in his oral evidence when he gave over to the inquiry he did say that he wasn't sure if he went back to your flat because he did to be covered but as a matter of your recollection you say he didn't come
01:15:34 your recollection you say he didn't come 100% you didn't come down okay now a paragraph 21 you also say that these firefighters when they visited your flat told you to put damp blankets under the
01:15:45 told you to put damp blankets under the front door yes and did you do that after they left yes
01:15:53 did you wet the blankets before you did that it was it wasn't soaked because we had minimal water pressure coming up so
01:16:05 had minimal water pressure coming up so it was very hard to wait a whole blanket okay I was going to ask you about that where did you in which room did you try to wet your blankets was at the bottom
01:16:18 to wet your blankets was at the bottom of the kitchen the bathroom bathroom he was the sink all the shower it's shower right when you say minimum water pressure what happened when you turned the tap water was coming up ever so very
01:16:32 the tap water was coming up ever so very small amounts it wasn't it wasn't powerful wasn't it had no pressure it was just very it's just small it's more had you ever experienced that lack of water pressure from that shower before
01:16:46 water pressure from that shower before no did you try any of the other taps in the flat yes this is the same the same
01:17:03 now paragraph 22 of your statement you say and around about 2:40 a.m. sparks from the cladding started to fall onto our window ledges which led to the fire
01:17:15 our window ledges which led to the fire spreading into our home very quickly the flames came in through the kitchen window there had been no smoke in the flat before this point the flat had started to feel warm but I hadn't thought much of it now just in terms of
01:17:31 thought much of it now just in terms of the timing in your supplemental statement you say that you believe that it was around 2:30 that you just first saw the sparks I can show you that if
01:17:42 saw the sparks I can show you that if you like it's um it's a page for paragraph 10 of that statement
01:18:00 and you do this based on the transcripts of the calls yes and we can look at the second or third perhaps of those calls in a moment but you think that it was
01:18:11 in a moment but you think that it was around 2:30 that you first saw sparks indeed can you come out yes and is the correction that you made in your supplemental statement because you'd
01:18:22 supplemental statement because you'd seen the transcript of that call okay now let's look at that call we'll go straight to it it's lfb 3 6 5 and it's
01:18:33 straight to it it's lfb 3 6 5 and it's timed as you can see from the number on them on the right-hand side of them of the blue part at o2 3442 say only of
01:18:49 the blue part at o2 3442 say only of only a minute or so sorry an hour or so after the or as an arrow say after the last call you made so if we look at the
01:19:01 last call you made so if we look at the transcript of that you say how they please just the fires in my building it's come to my floor now you said it's on the fourth floor my floor is on fire then you go on to say I'm on the 18th
01:19:13 then you go on to say I'm on the 18th floor and then having got through the information about floors and flat number at the bottom of page 2 you say 1 5 3 now I came to my neighbor's flat because
01:19:25 now I came to my neighbor's flat because my flats on fire so is in this call you're now in your neighbor's house yes
01:19:39 and right well that Bell established does that establish that the earliest time do you think which we can see you being in your neighbor's flat about 2:30
01:19:51 being in your neighbor's flat about 2:30 yes I would say so yes I'm gonna come back to that in a minute but before I move back to that can I just ask you some questions about your flat being on fire first how long before you move to
01:20:06 fire first how long before you move to your neighbors flat flat one two five three did you make this call to one not to 999 so repeat the question yes how
01:20:17 to 999 so repeat the question yes how long before you made this call to 999 do you think you moved to your neighbor's flat well within within minutes because
01:20:29 flat well within within minutes because I wanted to let them know that you know because I thought my head that they were going to come back so they need to know where I was so I wanted to let them know that I'm now in flat one five three yes
01:20:45 now how long before you left your flat to go next door to your neighbors did you first see sparks from the cladding landing on your window ledge as you've said in your your first statement at
01:20:58 said in your your first statement at paragraph 22 as soon as it happened as soon as it caught fire on the window ledge in my kitchen I got my kids and we
01:21:09 ledge in my kitchen I got my kids and we just went straight okay now focusing on the moment when you saw the sparks coming in you say it started to fall onto our window ledges was with
01:21:20 to fall onto our window ledges was with those window ledges outside the windows outside window edge yes SID sparks come into your kitchen yes it turned into a full-blown fire that came into through the window into the kitchen okay whether
01:21:31 the window into the kitchen okay whether it was the kitchen window open not that I remember but he must have I might I don't know I probably was a little bit open because I kept looking in and out oh yeah well I was going to say the
01:21:43 oh yeah well I was going to say the first the first time you'd look yeah out of the building when he woke up he looked out of the kitchen did when the fire came through did you or did you
01:21:54 fire came through did you or did you watch the fire come in yes I did yeah but it literally it was very quickly that it just caught very quickly and it just it was literally less than a minute
01:22:05 just it was literally less than a minute then from the sparks to fall in on the window ledge from the outside so it actually been inside the kitchen it was within a minute it happened now I know this is in a sense asking this question
01:22:17 this is in a sense asking this question in slow motion but I wonder whether you can you can remember whether you saw the fire only coming in through the open window or whether you also might have seen the fire coming the whole the whole thing it was just melting the whole
01:22:29 thing it was just melting the whole window was just seemed like he was just melting and it just come it just came straight through whether it from the window hears through all of it
01:22:42 did you see sparks falling from the cladding in any other window or through any other window in your flat before you left no it was just that was my kitchen window before you what's up where were
01:22:56 window before you what's up where were you standing when you saw the fire coming through your kitchen window we was all in the same room because we have open-plan the kitchen and sitting room so it's all open so was in this in
01:23:07 so it's all open so was in this in vanilla in the living room and it was right in front of us right there sliding doors between me I didn't have it I had open plant it was no sliding doors right
01:23:23 and how far did the fire come into your kitchen do you remember before you left the flat after it just took over the
01:23:36 the flat after it just took over the whole window ledge from the inside last when I left and you said the whole window ledge yes on the inside it just went right it happened very quickly
01:23:47 went right it happened very quickly is that how much of the window was being burnt by fire a good 60 70 percent of it was it was taken right it was most of
01:23:59 was it was taken right it was most of the fire on the bottom or the top or at the sides
01:24:02 the sides do you remember it was mostly from it's from the window frame itself right
01:24:17 do you remember what color the flames were vibrant orange vibrant orange
01:24:29 did you notice any smoke by this point there was smoke coming what color was this Meg it was it was a dark dark gray
01:24:43 this Meg it was it was a dark dark gray new black did you smell it yes was the smelled similar to or different from the smell it's not before it was similar did it have any physical
01:24:54 it was similar did it have any physical effect on you like I said it did trigger off my asthma right and as I've read to
01:25:06 off my asthma right and as I've read to you at the end of paragraph 22 your last sentence says the flat has started to feel warm but I hadn't thought much of it did you notice if the warmth was in any particular place in the or flat more
01:25:22 any particular place in the or flat more like in the kitchen site which now makes sense because the fire was coming from that side the building before you left
01:25:33 that side the building before you left your flat did any smoke alarms go off no
01:25:39 now we know because we've seen from the call and you tell us in the next paragraph that you you saw the flower if I come in and you then move to flat 153
01:25:50 I come in and you then move to flat 153 yes and that's mr. power loss tektites flat isn't it yes and I think in your statement you call him mr. Palace I don't know his I don't know him other
01:26:01 don't know his I don't know him other than that yeah okay now can I just ask you to be shown the plan of the floor which is M et triple zero one two five
01:26:13 which is M et triple zero one two five nine three at page 12 and I should just explain to you mr. yo-yo what this is this is a cross-section plan of groennfell tower at the time of the fire this is actually the fourth floor but
01:26:25 this is actually the fourth floor but all the floors are the same substantially similar all the way up the building you you were in flat one five two yes which is the on the bottom right
01:26:38 two yes which is the on the bottom right of the diagram so southeast corner and one five three is the one next door to the left of that in as opposed brown or gray yeah
01:26:49 gray yeah on the southwest of the west corner and could you just point out your front door for us using using the little red dot let me see if I can lead you on this I
01:27:01 let me see if I can lead you on this I think your your front door is the opening to them to the left of the room which says bathroom is that right yes yes okay if we could just put the red dot in that opening no black one foot
01:27:15 dot in that opening no black one foot it's flat too I'm gonna point to it there they bathroom to the left of bathroom by the hall of a bit
01:27:31 yeah yes and and so that's your front that's your front door yes so to get to flat 153 you come out of your front door turn left yes and then
01:27:43 your front door turn left yes and then walk down the passage to the front door which would then be on your left yes right okay now how long did that take you
01:27:59 it didn't yeah it was a struggle because the kids were with me and they were they were scared to go and I needed them to
01:28:10 were scared to go and I needed them to trust me because they thought they were safe I know there was fire inside the kitchen but they could see smoke and they were they didn't want to go out into that so it was a struggle to have
01:28:22 into that so it was a struggle to have to physically pull them to go to the next door
01:28:26 next door what were the smoke conditions like in the lobby at that time you open your front door and we're down to the most very bad it was you can see anything can see your hand in front of your face put
01:28:38 see your hand in front of your face put it there
01:28:38 it there how did you guide yourself the wall and I'm quite familiar with the building so I knew right why did you decide to go to
01:28:51 I knew right why did you decide to go to flat one five three because firefighters that came to the flat before those two came to my flat said to me that they were gonna get my neighbors and get us
01:29:03 were gonna get my neighbors and get us out together so that stayed in my head so I thought that if I was out with my neighbor they'll see me and we'll all go out together has there a reason why
01:29:15 out together has there a reason why instead of going to your neighbor's flat in 153 you didn't go into the stairwell because I didn't know what was in the stairwell and like I said the firefighter told me that they were gonna
01:29:26 firefighter told me that they were gonna get us out together so it made sense to go to my neighbor's house where they said they're gonna get them out - okay
01:29:38 and the smoke conditions in the communal Lobby during your walk to flat one five three were there the same as you'd experienced when you'd opened the door to the firefighters earlier things
01:29:49 to the firefighters earlier things progressively got worse worse yeah and did the smoke have a particular smell the smell was just stronger I don't know
01:30:00 the smell was just stronger I don't know just everything was just worse smell the smoke could you actually breathe it you couldn't you'd you'd be choked if you inhale that yeah did you have something
01:30:11 inhale that yeah did you have something over your I covered the kids before I left their faces right and what about you I did have one i covered my face too
01:30:25 you I did have one i covered my face too with a with a with a wet towel wet top did that help you breathe every year it helped
01:30:38 did you notice any particular temperature in the lobby the communal lobby when you went through it I eat it
01:30:50 lobby when you went through it I eat it was a there was a lot of heat a lot of heat did you notice that it was hotter in the lobby than the time when you
01:31:01 in the lobby than the time when you opened the door yes yeah definitely hot right when you say hotter I wonder if you can you give us a comparison of how hot it was I mean summer's day hot or hotter than
01:31:15 I mean summer's day hot or hotter than that it was it was definitely a hotter than a summers day for it okay it's definitely hard on us on this day
01:31:29 did you knock on the door of flat 105 3 he sends the door open I know it's closed I knocked on the door ok and who opened the door do you remember it was Jeanette get it I think
01:31:43 remember it was Jeanette get it I think yeah okay do you remember what the conditions were like in the flat when you went in there flat was smoke-free
01:31:54 you went in there flat was smoke-free there was no smoke no smoke yeah could you see any fire or sparks when he went in no do you remember who was in the
01:32:08 in no do you remember who was in the flat flat 153 when he went into it with your children it was good net with her husband and there was another man there and two children did you know the other
01:32:22 and two children did you know the other man I know I didn't know him did you did you did you didn't know that he was the lodger from I didn't know that until afterwards okay do you remember where
01:32:33 afterwards okay do you remember where the father power loss technique was when he went into the flat he was where they were all in the living room right do you
01:32:44 were all in the living room right do you remember whether he was sitting on the ledge of a window when you came in not when I came in but then when I was talking to his wife and you know told
01:32:57 talking to his wife and you know told her that the flat that my flat is now on fire he he then panicked and went to the window ledge did you see what he did
01:33:10 yeah he wanted to jump
01:33:15 did you talk to him I didn't speak to him no now can I take you back to your
01:33:26 him no now can I take you back to your call that we looked at a minute ago - LF B 3 6 5 which is the call you made at 2 34 42 where you said on the second page
01:33:38 34 42 where you said on the second page at the bottom I came to my neighbours because my flats on fire yeah just to be
01:33:51 because my flats on fire yeah just to be clear why did you call 999 after moving into flat 153 so that I can inform them and where I was okay
01:34:10 and then if you look on in the cut in the call the top of page 3 the operator says right okay what we're advising to
01:34:21 says right okay what we're advising to do is put some damp towels around yourself and you say yeah operator okay and then sorry you say and then she says put some damp towels around yourself and
01:34:32 put some damp towels around yourself and and you say I know but it's a matter of time and there's some over speaking and then the operator says I was speaking no listen listen it's we're advising you to safely try and get out and then at the
01:34:46 safely try and get out and then at the bottom of the page the operator says right you need to get some towels and damp towels so sorry and stamp sheets and make sure it's safe put them around
01:34:57 and make sure it's safe put them around your mouth so obviously you're not breathing the smoke in and guide yourself out and in between time we're going to tell them on the radio what floor you're on and then there's a discussion about how many there are of
01:35:08 discussion about how many there are of you and then you say towards the bottom of page four in response to the operators question so are you able to get out of the flat no we can't get out
01:35:19 get out of the flat no we can't get out of the flat that's what we're saying it's thick black smoke I had to come to my neighbor's house because it's in my flat now the fires in my flat I had to come to my neighbor's flat and we struggled in its next door but at that
01:35:34 struggled in its next door but at that stage in the call did you get any impression of whether or not the operator was understanding your predicament
01:35:55 no don't be she understood that my predicament
01:36:04 and then you can we can work our way through the call to thee through after the advice where you're told you must get out and you say we can't page five
01:36:18 get out and you say we can't page five the operator eat what you say to the operator this is a third of the way down the fire brigade said he was going to come back to us and he hasn't and the operator says right so what I'm going to
01:36:30 operator says right so what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell them the command unit and how the children how many how old are the children different ages from 11 year to the youngest which is 3 11 to 3 years old yeah ok and there's no way you can get out no right if and I'm
01:36:43 you can get out no right if and I'm pregnant
01:36:44 pregnant and you know pregnant ok right I'm just going to tell them I'm just going to tell the command unit to go and check your floor and then you say halfway down page 6 in response to her advice if the
01:36:55 page 6 in response to her advice if the situation gets worse than give me a ring straight back ok you say it's getting it's worse now I know I know it's worth it I know it's worse when I get to tell them as soon as I put the phone down etc
01:37:06 them as soon as I put the phone down etc and she ends up by saying I'm gonna tell the command unit down there to come directly up to you I've read you quite a lot of that I'm giving me the impression
01:37:20 lot of that I'm giving me the impression of the call after that call was over what did you think he was supposed to do
01:37:29 it was confusing
01:37:35 because from the last that the last bit of that is a message I got was that she was gonna tell them to come up for us
01:37:47 and what did you think that they were gonna come up for us
01:37:58 that call was at 2:34 as we've seen you then I think make another call at 2:48 and that's LF p38 for if we can please
01:38:11 and that's LF p38 for if we can please have that transcript
01:38:27 and I think this call is is either made by you or made by a child and then you take the call over do you remember that yes briefly yes okay and
01:38:48 we can just just tracing it through the original caller says in the on page to a quarter of the way down we're in Granville tower were on the 18th floor
01:39:00 Granville tower were on the 18th floor and we're stuck in the building I just want somebody to help us what you're on the 18th floor pardon did you say on the 18th floor yeah 18th floor one five three one five three okay and what's going on is there
01:39:12 three okay and what's going on is there a fire in your flat and then at the top of page three the caller says the fire isn't one five two we're in one five three at the moment but could you send someone please okay so it's in the flat next door is it the
01:39:24 so it's in the flat next door is it the flat the fires in the flat next to you yes okay listen so is your mum and dad there I can speak to her are you the best person to speak to yeah here's my mum and then the operator says okay hello and caller 2 says hello is that you the caller - yes
01:39:37 says hello is that you the caller - yes okay and hello yeah your daughter told me the fire isn't the flat next door is that right and you say yeah and then it goes on and then over the next page at
01:39:50 goes on and then over the next page at the top of the page page for the operators okay well listen where if the fires in the flat next door you're going to have to leave okay you're going to have to make your way and you say where we're on the 18th floor operator okay
01:40:02 we're on the 18th floor operator okay you say inaudible thick black smoke and then the operator says I know listen we're not going to be able to get up there to you you need to leave the flat and get out what now you need to listen
01:40:14 and get out what now you need to listen to me very carefully what you need to do you need to get some wet towels and towels put them around your mouth so you wait and hail the smoke and you need to get out okay make your way down don't
01:40:26 get out okay make your way down don't use the lifts use the stairwells okay but you need to put wet blankets and that around your mouth and the kids that's where they okay and make your way downstairs if the fires in the flat next door if that's what's going on okay do
01:40:37 door if that's what's going on okay do you understand and that's that's where the call or the transcript of the call terminates
01:40:45 at that point did you have a clear understanding about what you had to do I I didn't know I've completely forgot about this until I read the transcript I actually didn't remember them saying
01:40:59 I actually didn't remember them saying this to me it's only that I saw it in the transcript that I know it happened now
01:41:04 now I knocked I don't know I don't remember them saying this to me i I didn't reply to them because I so I don't know ever
01:41:15 to them because I so I don't know ever the information has got to me or not I don't know what happened there okay do you remember because we know you did leave
01:41:24 leave do you remember what motivated you to make that final decision to evacuate the flat
01:41:36 it was it was a lot of things I've seen
01:41:42 seeing the kids seen then is what them watching someone trying to jump out the window and then crying and screaming that kind of did make me want to protect
01:41:54 that kind of did make me want to protect them from seeing that
01:42:03 do you remember maybe you don't but do you remember passing on any advice you got from 999 to anybody else in the flat I did I said I don't even remember
01:42:15 I did I said I don't even remember having this conversation with them
01:42:20 do you remember Palos tech lay making a call to 999 and telling the operator that smoke was coming from the windows outside I don't remember okay do you remember seeing smoke coming
01:42:33 okay do you remember seeing smoke coming through the palace's windows at any stage before you left there must have been yeah okay did that have an impact on your decision yeah as that did as
01:42:44 on your decision yeah as that did as well because I knew that fire was next door and I know it was going very quickly and I knew as a matter of time before it reaches because we share a
01:42:57 before it reaches because we share a wall between us our bedrooms are very close together so if we met of time before the fire comes into next door that was another reason why I left yes
01:43:10 that was another reason why I left yes now just going back to to your to this call in your supplemental statement if you please go to paragraph 18 which is
01:43:22 you please go to paragraph 18 which is on page 6 you say having read this transcript I'll just wait for that to be shame it's there on the screen paragraph 18 having read this transcript you say I
01:43:34 18 having read this transcript you say I vaguely remember this call and the operators saying that no one was going to come rescue us but there was so much going on Palace was threatening to jump out of the window I had the kids that's probably why I couldn't answer after she gave her advice well maybe the line
01:43:46 gave her advice well maybe the line dropped before I could respond I do think that being told no one was going to rescue us impacted my decision who tried to get out that and Palace threatened to jump out of the window made me feel that we had to leave so
01:43:59 made me feel that we had to leave so just just pausing there is that what you said in your statement there as a result of your thinking about the night after having seen the transcript or do you
01:44:11 having seen the transcript or do you remember having those thoughts on the night itself
01:44:18 I don't like said I don't I didn't remember them advising us to leave but that was just in now in hindsight after reading the transcript right and you say
01:44:30 reading the transcript right and you say in the last sentence of this this paragraph the previous call left us with some hope that someone would come for us this call didn't I know you don't remember the call and they're only
01:44:41 remember the call and they're only reminded of it but the transcript do you remember a point when the hope you had had to be rescued went I think so
01:44:53 had to be rescued went I think so hindsight you probably did yes because it is more the clear instruction then in false hope having made the decision to
01:45:07 false hope having made the decision to leave did you have any discussion with any of the others in the flat about leaving
01:45:16 I don't remember exactly the discussion but I think we said we just need to go we need to get out and Jeanette Jeanette went and got the towels on the cupboard
01:45:29 went and got the towels on the cupboard to get with them I remember going with her to the kitchen to have tried to wet the towels right but she said she can cover her kids and
01:45:40 but she said she can cover her kids and did she managed to wet the towels it was it was the same water pressure same problem yeah okay it just took long do
01:45:53 problem yeah okay it just took long do you remember hearing or seeing palos call 999 and get and get advice about what they should do I'd he met he may
01:46:05 what they should do I'd he met he may have done I know there was nine and nine calls being made I just don't remember what they what he said or what they said to him
01:46:20 when you left were you carrying the wet towels or blankets that you have wet as best you could with with Gannett in her flat 4 wouldn't for the kids yes for the
01:46:32 flat 4 wouldn't for the kids yes for the kids what about you I started off with one but it didn't it dropped off right
01:46:42 at the moment you decided to leave do you remember what the conditions inside the palace is flat what were like yeah
01:46:53 the palace is flat what were like yeah it was it was okay but the smoke had been started to seep through right do you remember where that it see it was beginning to seep through from because
01:47:08 beginning to seep through from because we was only in their living room right I didn't we didn't I didn't go to we didn't go to the bedrooms or anything reasons only in the living room so it was just from the living room windows living room window yeah do you remember
01:47:21 living room window yeah do you remember which living room window particularly the smoke was coming in from no okay
01:47:30 when you left the flat do you remember who opened the front door I think it was the lodger and I think did you have any
01:47:44 the lodger and I think did you have any discussion about leaving the flat with him before you left no but I think they could see us preparing for the kid with the kids getting them ready to leave all right I didn't I didn't speak to that
01:47:55 right I didn't I didn't speak to that man at all so he opened the front door and who went out to the front door first I can remember those him was it powerless I can't remember which one
01:48:06 powerless I can't remember which one left first I'm just I think he was him but then powerless foolish not long after then it was good net and then me and the kids so you went after Palos and
01:48:17 and the kids so you went after Palos and that Julius because I needed to self prep my kids in a sense not to let go of me not to right talk them through it
01:48:32 did you have any discussion or do you remember any discussion about leaving before the lodger mr. nu opened the
01:48:43 before the lodger mr. nu opened the front door two flat one five three we must have done with I must have done with Gannett and sacred we know we could just just go we'll go together
01:48:59 do you remember seeing a firefighter as you left either in the doorway of the flat or in the fight at all
01:49:10 flat or in the fight at all you say that with confidence yes are you sure about that I'm hundred percent sure there was no firefighter at all it was dark and smoky so how do you know
01:49:24 dark and smoky so how do you know because he would have been able to have been instructing us and we was left to our own devices so if he was there he
01:49:35 our own devices so if he was there he should he would have told us what to do I told you know said something yeah did you hear any voices other than the voices of panels
01:49:46 did you see any torches no well it's difficult in to get timings right the how long after power loss and the lodger
01:49:58 how long after power loss and the lodger left the flat did you leave not no like within minutes minutes yeah it within minutes because he left and then
01:50:09 minutes because he left and then Jeannette followed her husband and then I was ready to leave straight after she so he left more less together I remember seeing her just before we went
01:50:20 seeing her just before we went I remember her talk you know L seen her just before we went down the fire in the stairwell then after that I didn't hear or see any of them
01:50:32 who went first into the stairwell did she go first or did you go first she I think she went first did you did she push the stairwell door herself or
01:50:44 she push the stairwell door herself or did you push it for yourself or did she held it did you hold it open for her I don't remember okay how did you find your way with your
01:50:56 okay how did you find your way with your three children to the stairwell it was very difficult I think one of them fell slipped as well at the time trying to
01:51:07 slipped as well at the time trying to find our way through this smoke but like I said I was quite familiar with the building so I knew roughly where it would be
01:51:16 would be we still had to feel our way as well do you remember before leaving the flat whether there was any discussion about who should take which child of the palace of palaces
01:51:28 palace of palaces I vaguely remember that larger offering to help gannett and say you know let me
01:51:41 to help gannett and say you know let me help you take one of your son right no I just came back at a moment to some evidence you gave a minute ago you say the lodger left
01:51:53 the lodger left Palance techni left canet left and then you left you say within minutes just going back to that and it's difficult because timings are very difficult but when you say within minutes do you mean within minutes or do you mean within
01:52:04 within minutes or do you mean within seconds within seconds then yeah I don't want to suggest them no no no it makes more sense within seconds because I didn't stay after them more than 10 to 15 seconds
01:52:15 after them more than 10 to 15 seconds after that yeah yeah
01:52:22 now when you came out into the lobby with the smoke conditions in the lobby the same as you'd experienced when you left your flat and went to flat one five
01:52:33 left your flat and went to flat one five three by three yeah what about the temperature
01:52:39 I fear I remember it being overwhelmingly hot heat the heat was there hotter than when you came from your flat yeah it's definitely hotter did the neighbors definitely hotter
01:52:57 when you got to the stairwell were the conditions in the stairs when you first saw them following Gannett were they
01:53:11 saw them following Gannett were they worse than in the cookie in the lobby that you just come through I would say
01:53:25 that you just come through I would say it's probably the same but the smell was probably more stronger in the stairwell write a paragraph 25 of your first
01:53:40 write a paragraph 25 of your first statement on page seven that's ideas four nine eight you say conditions in the stairwell were even worse than in the lobby there was intense heat that
01:53:51 the lobby there was intense heat that seemed to increase as we descend it so you say the smell was you just said to us the smell was more intense yeah in
01:54:04 us the smell was more intense yeah in terms of smoke thickness was it were those conditions in the stairwell worse than the lobby I think so yes okay and
01:54:15 than the lobby I think so yes okay and you say there was intense heat that seemed to increase as we descended when you open the stair well door into the stairwell from the lobby could you
01:54:26 stairwell from the lobby could you describe whether the temperature stayed the same or whether it was no no it was definitely a temperature difference because when you open the stairwell door there it was hot in the lobby but witnessed on the stairwell it hit you
01:54:37 witnessed on the stairwell it hit you more right so just summarizing where we've got to it was hot when you left your flat and went to your neighbor's when you came out of your neighbors it
01:54:48 when you came out of your neighbors it was definitely hotter yes and then you open the stair door and it's hotter still yes it's got my I got worse because I said to you that the temperature difference was worse so because as you open the door it hit you
01:54:59 because as you open the door it hit you more so you could feel it and then you and then you say the heat seemed to increase as we descended do you remember first of all at what
01:55:11 do you remember first of all at what point it it started to decrease and it's very difficult you're in the dark and coming down with three children but do you remember even vaguely having it time long after you an increased L increase
01:55:22 long after you an increased L increase as you came down at what point it's their temperature started to climb how long during your descent how long into
01:55:33 long during your descent how long into your descent do you think that it was at its hottest I think it was a few flaws
01:55:45 its hottest I think it was a few flaws lower did that heat have any effect on you physically it did because that's
01:55:57 you physically it did because that's when you know you could feel it in your heart your eyes okay that was such streaming at that point when the temperature was at its hottest during
01:56:09 temperature was at its hottest during your descent down the stairs how would you compare it with anything you've experienced before I can't cuz I've never experienced that source tense heat before
01:56:19 before okay so hotter than a summers day very much hotter
01:56:30 did the heats of subside did it go down after a particular point that's probably we got to the lower floors maybe it's about third floor
01:56:46 during your descent could you see any light in the stairwell at any point no the only light I saw is from the fireman's helmet let's watch
01:56:58 fireman's helmet let's watch firefighters torch f1 whereabouts in this almost on your descent what did you see a firemen's torch that was about the seventh floor about the seventh floor
01:57:11 seventh floor about the seventh floor it's quite quite a particular definite number how did you how do you know or why you saying seventh floor because my daughter this the whole time we was going down she was very vocal she kept shouting what floor are we on what floor
01:57:23 shouting what floor are we on what floor are we on and right that's when fire well my son then collapsed on the seventh floor okay smoke got to him where he just was
01:57:36 smoke got to him where he just was unconscious and the fire fight was coming out of the seventh floor and he said you're on this ever for keep God it picked him up and we just he said keep
01:57:47 picked him up and we just he said keep going you're on the server floor keep going yes and indeed you say in paragraph 27 of your statement that when you've got to the seventh floor your son collapsed can I just get back to what you said a minute ago about your
01:57:58 to what you said a minute ago about your daughter being very vocal and counting out the numbers didn't how did she how does she work out which floor you were on so she could shout out the numbers it wasn't her who shout in the numbers she
01:58:09 wasn't her who shout in the numbers she was just kept saying what floor are we on oh and so it was the firefighter who answered her and said you're on the seventh floor keep going right I'm sorry I made misunderstood because you said I
01:58:20 I made misunderstood because you said I think a little earlier that the whole time you were going down she was shouting what floor are we on and nobody answered her because we didn't know oh I see
01:58:28 see okay and when you get to the seventh floor a firefighter says seventh yeah where was the did you encounter that firefighter on the seventh floor or was he was coming out of the seventh floor okay
01:58:40 coming out of the seventh floor okay he's coming into the stairwell right and just going back to the heat question was
01:58:52 just going back to the heat question was it when you were at the seventh floor where was that what was the temperature like there we're still the same as the heat and quite intense heat right does that mean
01:59:04 quite intense heat right does that mean still at its hottest or slightly less hot or more hot probably as hot as the higher floors yeah probably decreased by now yeah okay
01:59:16 yeah probably decreased by now yeah okay when the firefighter came out from the seventh floor did did you get a chance to look into the lobby no what were the smoke conditions like on the seventh floor at the point when your son
01:59:27 floor at the point when your son collapsed it was still quite thick thick dark smoke
01:59:39 how many firefighters do you remember seeing on the seventh floor
01:59:47 I think I remember seeing three that's a guess what were they doing do you remember there was they were in the seventh floor but I don't remember them
02:00:02 seventh floor but I don't remember them coming down you know that I don't remember them coming down before us I think they're open the seventh floor they saw my son on conscious on the
02:00:13 they saw my son on conscious on the floor one of them pick them up and carried him and then we and the others too just kept shouting us to keep going keep going keep going
02:00:26 did you tell those firefighters that there were still people up on higher floors
02:00:33 floors no there were I was there radio was going off and they were being instructed to leave do you remember during your
02:00:45 to leave do you remember during your descent down the whole staircase whether you saw any other doors into the stairwell from lobbies open you know okay mr. chairman we've been going more
02:00:59 okay mr. chairman we've been going more or less an hour and I've just noticed and I've got that we've got very few questions left and I think maybe their paper thing would be for me to ask if that's all right with you and then well
02:01:10 that's all right with you and then well short break when you say very few questions what are we talking about in terms of time 7 questions in terms of time and five minutes I'm still we're getting on very well as you can tell mr.
02:01:22 getting on very well as you can tell mr. minute has a few more questions do you feel that you need a break I can carry on you can carry on he's probably better that we do right but if you get
02:01:33 better that we do right but if you get to the stage when you feel you've had enough that you need a break yes in keep going mr. moment I will do a search and it may be more convenient that if rather than the sort of break we had earlier on
02:01:45 than the sort of break we had earlier on people can perhaps stay in sits you and any any further questions can just be fed to me I think yes well you could exactly go to that I think I could I could make a rare trip miss Yaya I want
02:01:57 could make a rare trip miss Yaya I want just to turn then finally to the outside of the your experience outside the tower
02:02:09 of the your experience outside the tower when you got outside were you treated by paramedics not straightaway how long
02:02:21 paramedics not straightaway how long after when we got outside because my son got out first and as soon as I got
02:02:32 got out first and as soon as I got outside I was looking for my son hmm so I saw him laying on the floor so I run over to him he was being treated
02:02:44 then they were put then they put him in the ambulance I wanted to go with him they didn't let me they said I need to be seen first so then I just waited
02:02:55 be seen first so then I just waited around for a bit then I then someone came then a paramedic came which was probably about I think all in all afterwards it was about 15 minutes after left before
02:03:08 about 15 minutes after left before someone primarily came and I asked him for an inhaler I didn't have one
02:03:17 did you get one I got an empty one right now to literally find some another paramedic to give me in your statement
02:03:31 paramedic to give me in your statement at paragraph 30 on page 8 you explained that you were still standing as your symptoms haven't kicked in yet and you
02:03:42 symptoms haven't kicked in yet and you say I wasn't considered a priority for the ambulances my two daughters and I over the last residents to leave the area in an ambulance we were taken to the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead do
02:03:55 the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead do you remember how long you had to wait before going in an ambulance from after having Liat left I would say a good hour and a half to two hours morning had it
02:04:08 and a half to two hours morning had it was early I was morning there was a ready daylight right
02:04:19 when you told why there was a delay in taking you told have to wait my turn no did anybody explain uh I think some
02:04:33 did anybody explain uh I think some apparent one of them said you're an acute they are taking everyone you're just you know just wait for your turn I
02:04:41 think you said earlier in your evidence that you're your son suffers from asthma yes can you tell us if you you don't have to answer this this question if you don't want to but can you tell us a
02:04:52 don't want to but can you tell us a little bit about the effects of the smoke and the experience on your son's a smack on the night it made him very wheezy he was struggling to struggling to breathe that's why his that's why he
02:05:07 to breathe that's why his that's why he that's why he's the only one who collapsed night he was he was struggling before we left right before you left the flat yes before you left flat one five three yes what about before he arrived in and you arrived with him in flat one
02:05:18 in and you arrived with him in flat one five three he was wheezing the whole time he was coughing and wheezing well thank you very much mr. Chen perhaps this is an appropriate moment for a
02:05:29 this is an appropriate moment for a short break yes well I think he'll need a short break I've got no further questions I should just say miss Jana thank you for everything so far I've got
02:05:40 thank you for everything so far I've got no further questions for you but there may be maybe that other people have so I get to ask the Chairman to rise well I wonder whether we shouldn't be convenient to do what we did with it earlier witness and yes we can do that
02:05:52 earlier witness and yes we can do that yeah you and I can sit they have to do that and I can then you can go down there and speak to anyone who wants to speak to you right very good all right be sensible very sensible I'll do that we're gonna have a short break well mr. minute check see if any more
02:06:04 well mr. minute check see if any more questions okay that's menu and I can sit here
02:06:08 here I need to conserve this on there all right
02:07:25 so have you completed any discussion it's a small harvest right no I think there are going to be a few more questions the first question it may be
02:07:41 questions the first question it may be the only good it is when you made your decision finally to leave flat one five three
02:07:47 three what role did your own asthma have on that decision in that decision
02:07:58 experience I didn't think about my asthma it was the last thing I was thinking about right okay what about what about your son oh yeah I was more concerned about the
02:08:11 oh yeah I was more concerned about the kids and my son seeing him struggle he did yeah in hindsight it did probably make my decision to leave more
02:08:30 in your statement a paragraph 11 you say that you're you're I'm so sorry
02:08:43 that you're you're I'm so sorry paragraph 31 that you say that you're
02:08:57 one of your daughter's was kept at Royal Free and another was admitted to the intensive care unit at King's College Hospital were you told that they were
02:09:13 Hospital were you told that they were being taken to those hospitals at the time they were taken my well my two daughters came with me first to Royal
02:09:24 daughters came with me first to Royal Free Hospital so we went in the ambulance together my son I didn't know where he was or if I didn't even know if he was okay right she was only uh I
02:09:36 he was okay right she was only uh I actually didn't even know until after I woke up from the coma
02:09:43 so before you were put into the into your into the induced coma you weren't told where your son had been taken you know did you ask anybody from the time that I got to the hospital to the time that I collapsed was a very short
02:09:56 time that I collapsed was a very short time so after that I don't know yes well thank you very much
02:10:07 thank you very much see I have no further questions except one except one and and it's this in
02:10:19 one except one and and it's this in addition to the two witness statements that you've given to us and in addition to what you've told us this afternoon about your experiences on the night is
02:10:30 about your experiences on the night is there anything that you in addition that you saw or you heard or you smelt how you felt
02:10:37 you felt on the night of the fire that you think that it's important that the Chairman should know
02:10:51 no Thomas yo-yo thank you very much I just want to express my gratitude to you for your patience in the answering my questions and for assisting us greatly
02:11:03 questions and for assisting us greatly with your evidence today we very much appreciate your coming here and doing that and and say thank you very much my
02:11:14 that and and say thank you very much my thanks as mr. millet it's some things I've said to others is vital to us that we find out what was going on inside the building at different times your evidence in telling us what you
02:11:25 evidence in telling us what you experienced is really important and I'm very grateful to you for coming to tell us about it even though I suspect to describe such an horrendous experience must be quite difficult for thank you
02:11:38 must be quite difficult for thank you very much now I'm going to rise you stay I suggest you can stay there until the room has been cleared I'm going to ask everyone to clear the room please as
02:11:50 everyone to clear the room please as quickly as possible nice Drive left hey that's that mr. Allen I'm not going to disagree with any event before I do I should just say for those who are in the room that we were expecting as I said
02:12:01 room that we were expecting as I said last night to read some further witness statements into the record and read out parts of them there are extremely valuable and an important part of this part of face wells yes I'm afraid it'll
02:12:13 part of face wells yes I'm afraid it'll be now obvious to everybody in the room that we are a little bit behind in our reading yes because we are obviously prioritizing that the witnesses who come in terms of time management we hope to be able to catch up during this week and
02:12:25 be able to catch up during this week and I will update and update You mr. chairman and those in the in the hearing room as soon as I can well thank you very much for spirit well thank you again for coming and can I ask once I've left the room could I ask the
02:12:36 once I've left the room could I ask the rest you to leave as quickly as possible thank you very much