Dr Clare Barker (Exova) evidence on inadequate fire strategy peer review, workload pressures, and lack of proper handovers
00:00:26 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing as you know our hearings were suspended in March when the government made it clear that large gatherings were
00:00:38 made it clear that large gatherings were to be avoided if at all possible that that staged the number of corona virus infections was rising steadily and I took the view that the only responsible course was to call a halt to the
00:00:50 course was to call a halt to the hearings about a week later the country went into lockdown from which it's only recently begun to emerge indeed we don't even know now how matters will develop
00:01:03 even know now how matters will develop from here what we do know is that the virus is still active and capable of spreading quickly if proper precautions are not taken for the benefit of those
00:01:15 are not taken for the benefit of those who are not directly involved in the inquiry I'd like to make it clear that the suspension of hearings has not meant that there's been any pause in any other aspects of our work members of the
00:01:28 aspects of our work members of the inquiry team working from home have ensured that the process of gathering evidence both in the form of documents and witness statements and disclosing materials to core participants has
00:01:40 materials to core participants has continued without interruption preparations for questioning those whom we intend to call those witnesses have advanced steadily and outstanding
00:01:51 advanced steadily and outstanding questions relating to the scope of the Attorney General's undertaking have been resolved as a result they are well placed to make steady progress now that it has become possible to resume
00:02:03 it has become possible to resume hearings albeit with a limited number of people in the hearing room I know I speak for the whole inquiry team when I say that we considered it essential in
00:02:15 say that we considered it essential in the public interest to start taking evidence again as soon as it was possible to do so however in order to comply with government guidelines which
00:02:26 comply with government guidelines which are designed to ensure the safety of all those who were using our premises it has been necessary to make a number of changes to the way in which we use the space at our disposal
00:02:37 space at our disposal I'm very grateful to the team and to those who advise us on health and safety matters for the work they've done to enable us to resume hearings today just
00:02:48 enable us to resume hearings today just as lockdown is being eased it is not possible under present conditions to allow members of the public in general or even those corps participants most
00:02:59 or even those corps participants most directly affected by the fire to attend the hearings in person I greatly regret that but the proceedings are being live-streamed as before those who wish
00:03:11 live-streamed as before those who wish to do so can therefore follow the minute-by-minute as they unfold legal representatives for corps participants will be able to suggest questions for
00:03:22 will be able to suggest questions for the witnesses to counsel to the inquiry or raise points as necessary by email the panel will ensure that there are adequate breaks in order to collect and
00:03:33 adequate breaks in order to collect and consider those questions we shall continue to monitor closely of the government's advice and guidance on the response to the pandemic and shall take whatever steps are open to us to ensure
00:03:46 whatever steps are open to us to ensure that our hearings are as accessible to the public as possible when hearings were suspended we just heard the evidence of Miss Kate Cooney the first
00:03:59 evidence of Miss Kate Cooney the first of a number of witnesses from X over the fire consultants they were engaged to advise on the Grenville tower refurbishment project today we're going to hear evidence from the second of the
00:04:11 to hear evidence from the second of the x over witnesses dr. Clare Barker yes mr. Miller mr. chairman mr. panel member thank you very much indeed I now call dr. Clare Barker please
00:04:40 I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much dr. Bacher sit down
00:04:52 thank you very much dr. Bacher sit down make yourself comfortable now mr. Miller before you start with the witness which you need to take a break during the morning yes can I leave it to you to identify a convenient point around about
00:05:04 identify a convenient point around about 11:15 11:15 yes yes mr. chairman certainly thank you very much dr. Bock a good morning and can I say first of all thank you very much to you for coming
00:05:15 thank you very much to you for coming down
00:05:15 down to London to give evidence to us we do very much appreciate it if you have any difficulty understanding the questions I'm going to ask you I can rephrase them or ask the question in a different way
00:05:27 or ask the question in a different way so please do say also if you could please keep your voice up so that the transcribers to your right can get down accurately what you're saying I'd be very grateful for that to now you've
00:05:39 very grateful for that to now you've made one witness statement to the inquiry as I understand it and that is ex0 four zeros one six zero three can I please take you to that you'll find it
00:05:51 please take you to that you'll find it on the screen in front of you but also in a folder on the desk there it's dated the 27th of September 2018 can I ask you please to go to page five
00:06:03 can I ask you please to go to page five first of all where there's a signature above your name is that your signature it is have you read this witness statement recently yes and can you confirm that the contents
00:06:14 and can you confirm that the contents are true I can yes and have you discussed your statement or your evidence with anybody before coming here today and just the legal team the legal team now there are a number of exhibits
00:06:26 team now there are a number of exhibits to the statement which have shown on the schedule which is at I D X double zero five seven I don't think there's any need to go to those but I just read them into the record say that they are
00:06:37 into the record say that they are publicly available should anybody wish to see them can I then start with some questions about your background and your experience if I may now if you go to your witness statement please a paragraph two point one on page one
00:06:53 you'll see that you say there that you have an undergraduate degree in material science from Brunel University London which you obtained in 1980 in 1995 is
00:07:05 which you obtained in 1980 in 1995 is that right that's correct and I think you also hold a PhD in carbon fiber composites from the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology yes when did you obtain that honor at the
00:07:17 when did you obtain that honor at the PhD yes at 2000 mm what CPD professional development or other professional development have you undertaken in fire engineering since you
00:07:29 undertaken in fire engineering since you obtained your PhD in 2000 I've done both from starting work at Warrington fire research in 2003 I did mainly on the job
00:07:46 research in 2003 I did mainly on the job training to gain knowledge of the codes then we had training days within the
00:07:57 then we had training days within the fire engineering team as well to look at different fire engineering techniques that could be applied I've also attended conferences seminars on different
00:08:11 conferences seminars on different subjects and attended two seminars conferences sorry on human behavior in evacuation but in terms of a formal fire
00:08:26 evacuation but in terms of a formal fire engineering education that's an establishment so University I haven't had any formal fire engineering thank you at the time of the Grenville tower project were you a member of any professional bodies or institutions yes
00:08:39 professional bodies or institutions yes which one's the institution of fire engineers institution of fire engineers and I think you were at attics over from 2000 until 2015 working your way up to principal sorry I
00:08:51 working your way up to principal sorry I was at X over from 2003 until 2015 yes that mm I'm so sorry my mistake 2003 until 2015 and is it right that you
00:09:04 until 2015 and is it right that you worked your way up to the position of principal fire engineer yes that's correct and you were principal fire engineer in and from 2009 yes yes what role what
00:09:15 and from 2009 yes yes what role what digital role as principal fire engineer Attucks / typically involved and the main day-to-day work involved writing fire strategies for different projects
00:09:27 fire strategies for different projects in all sorts of different purpose groups residential hospitals schools warehouses and it would also involve supervising
00:09:42 and it would also involve supervising more junior members of staff within the office there were five levels in the office at the time and it would involve
00:09:55 office at the time and it would involve also reviewing their work as well when you say the office is that the Warrenton office yes you just told us that different purpose groups included
00:10:08 different purpose groups included residential hospitals schools and warehouses of residential how much of your day-to-day work would have included in in general terms after 2009 high-rise residential blocks
00:10:23 I'd done two or three two or three in the period between 2009 and 2012 is that
00:10:34 I can't actually remember I know I have worked on two or three but one of them might have been before 2009 okay as at mid 2012 how much experience had you had
00:10:47 mid 2012 how much experience had you had within xover of carrying out a technical or peer review of a colleagues draft report for a client and a lot of experience so I reviewed their work on a
00:11:03 experience so I reviewed their work on a for every project that they were working on I would review a report that they had done and how much experience had you had as at that time of establishing relevant
00:11:15 as at that time of establishing relevant fire safety issues for a particular building and I would you said it had lots of experience and same question again how much experience at that time had you had of
00:11:27 experience at that time had you had of checking the adequacy of any fire safety advice given by your junior staff against the scope of the instructions under which xover was retained I would
00:11:39 under which xover was retained I would have said I'd heard quite a lot of experience in doing that okay to turn just briefly to the subject of what a fire safety engineer involves just just
00:11:51 fire safety engineer involves just just to set it in context is it right that you became involved with Grenfell tower for the first time in July 2012 when you were asked by Andrew McCracken of X over
00:12:03 were asked by Andrew McCracken of X over to attend a meeting with Studio E yes okay so I'm going to cut I get to come back to that and I just look at a document with you first it's EXO four zeros one six one three
00:12:16 it's EXO four zeros one six one three please this is your email of the 7th of August 2012 - Kate Cooney from you and
00:12:28 August 2012 - Kate Cooney from you and in which you say see below do you see that yes and underneath that it there is an email from Bruce owns to you the 30th
00:12:39 an email from Bruce owns to you the 30th of July 2012 we're going to come back to that in more detail later on copied to Terry Ashton and the long and the short of the exchanges that you were instructing Kate
00:12:52 exchanges that you were instructing Kate Cooney to prepare a fire safety strategy report for the existing building the building as it stood yes now in doing that were you acting as a fire safety
00:13:04 that were you acting as a fire safety engineer yes and were you carrying out fire engineering services in doing the reports yes yes and in super but in
00:13:16 reports yes yes and in super but in asking Kate Cooney to do what she was to do yes and what do you understand to be a fire safety engineer and my
00:13:27 a fire safety engineer and my understanding of it is somebody who assesses a building design and talks about its adequacy in terms of fire
00:13:39 about its adequacy in terms of fire safety in how it meets the functional requirements of the building regulations we want to be five and what about the likely behavior of materials and
00:13:50 likely behavior of materials and structures would that also be involved in acting as a fire safety engineer yes in that we the strategy would contain a high level advise us to the performance
00:14:01 high level advise us to the performance requirements of those materials you say high level what do you mean by that in terms of all we would specify a fire
00:14:12 in terms of all we would specify a fire resistance level for example we would say the elements of structure need to provide two hours fire resistance we wouldn't necessarily include in the strategy how that is achieved perhaps I
00:14:25 strategy how that is achieved perhaps I could take this a little bit more quickly
00:14:26 quickly can I ask you please to be shown a document M T triple zero six five one three zero M et triple zero six five one three zero at page two this is a witness
00:14:40 three zero at page two this is a witness statement given to the Metropolitan Police by mr. Robert vetch of X / are you familiar with mr. veg yes yes and this is paragraph two of his
00:14:53 yes yes and this is paragraph two of his statement on that page and although it's not numbered it's the second paragraph down and he says there in the second sentence in prep do you see this in
00:15:07 sentence in prep do you see this in preparing a fire safety strategy you see that yes he says the focus of the fire engineer is to try and understand what the safest means of escape is for people in that building and they do this by
00:15:20 in that building and they do this by looking at the building procedures building structure and the components within that building this process is about life safety it's not about property protection and
00:15:31 it's not about property protection and my question is would you agree with mr. vetch about his description of a fire safety strategy there I would agree with most of it and when we're doing a fire
00:15:43 most of it and when we're doing a fire strategy to meet the requirements the functional requirements of the building regulations we are looking at live safety and however it doesn't
00:15:54 safety and however it doesn't necessarily mean looking at building procedures that you do have an evacuation procedure but it doesn't necessarily consider the management of the building you say doesn't necessarily
00:16:06 the building you say doesn't necessarily would it if the scope of services under which xover was retained specified that it should
00:16:20 yes I think it would refer to certain aspects of the management but it wouldn't be a full fire safety manual which would be more of a management
00:16:32 which would be more of a management document okay so it can I just said it I understand to what extent you agree with mr. vetch here are you saying that it's not always a given that in any fire safety strategy you're always looking at
00:16:44 safety strategy you're always looking at the safest means of escape it depends on the scope no well we're always looking at the safest means of escape because you're trying to ensure that the design complies with the requirements of the
00:16:56 complies with the requirements of the building regulations which the requirement is that there is adequate means of warning and escape for the people in the building so we would be
00:17:10 people in the building so we would be looking at ensuring that there are safe means of escape for people from the building right so your are you saying that when you're you don't always look at building procedures unless you're
00:17:21 at building procedures unless you're told to or asked - yeah I see and would that depend on the scope of the instructions for a specific project yes I see now can I then turn to
00:17:32 I see now can I then turn to relationships and responsibilities next as the next topic it's over were asked to draft a fire safety strategy for the existing building in the summer of 2012 we know that from the documents can we
00:17:47 we know that from the documents can we just look and see what a fire safety strategy is can I ask you - are you familiar with the British standard published document BSI 4-0 76 1716
00:17:59 published document BSI 4-0 76 1716 current as at August 2012 sorry let me let me show it to you first of all if you could be shown BSI four zeros one seven one six yes I'm familiar with that
00:18:15 seven one six yes I'm familiar with that you're familiar with that document and you know if you're familiar with the guidance are you yes and were you familiar with it in 2012 yes can I then very quickly take you to page seven which is paragraph or section three
00:18:26 which is paragraph or section three point one six we're a fire safety strategies defined it's at the top of the page there fire safety strategy combination of fire
00:18:37 safety strategy combination of fire safety measures that has been shown by reference to prescriptive codes or a fire engineering study to be capable of satisfying the specified fire safety objectives and was that your understanding in mid 2012 of what a fire
00:18:50 understanding in mid 2012 of what a fire safety strategy was yes thank you can I ask you them to move to page 44 of the same document which says under paragraph
00:19:04 same document which says under paragraph nine point seven fire safety strategy and I'll just read it to you the fire safety strategy for the building will be based on the successful trial design and is likely to comprise a range of
00:19:15 is likely to comprise a range of physical fire safety measures and management procedures a description of these measures should be provided together with performance specifications and any recommended deviations from the
00:19:26 and any recommended deviations from the relevant system codes you see that and again as at mid 2012 was that your understanding of what a fire safety strategy should comprise yes however I
00:19:40 strategy should comprise yes however I wouldn't have used BS 797 for all the published documents that went with it to do the fire safety strategy for grown film we use the prescriptive court
00:19:51 film we use the prescriptive court approved document b all right can I just focus on the words and management procedures in the second line of that section you'll see that it says likely
00:20:02 section you'll see that it says likely to comprise a range of physical fire safety measures and management procedures so as at mid 2012 was it your understanding that a fire safety strategy which complied with this
00:20:13 strategy which complied with this guidance should comprise management procedures if it was complying with that guidance yes right and what was it in general about the instructions that you
00:20:25 general about the instructions that you received in the summer of 2012 in relation to the fire safety strategy for grenfell tower that you were to do that xover was to do which meant that you weren't to look at management procedures
00:20:36 weren't to look at management procedures or weren't to look or use this guidance the seven nine seven four and basically provides a framework for how you would go about doing a fire
00:20:48 how you would go about doing a fire engineering strategy that is performance-based instead of being prescriptive so there are essentially three different methods to go about the
00:20:59 three different methods to go about the fire safety design for a building you could use the guidance and approved document b which is very general or you could use the guidance that's now available in another standard BS double
00:21:12 available in another standard BS double ninth or nine or you could use the performance-based approach which you use the framework that's described in the BS seven nine seven four document and you
00:21:23 seven nine seven four document and you would use the techniques described in the published documents that go along with that standard for example there is a published document about how you can
00:21:34 a published document about how you can look at how a fire develops there is a there is a published document and that goes along with it that describes how
00:21:44 smoke moves and how you can then calculate and the requirements for smoke clearance systems and there is another published document which talks about human behavior so you could use that and
00:21:55 human behavior so you could use that and in an analysis and the prescriptive framework recommends that you have a meeting beforehand with all the
00:22:06 meeting beforehand with all the stakeholders where you discuss the performance criteria and then you provide your fire engineering analysis in your strategy to show that you have essentially met those conditions in the
00:22:18 essentially met those conditions in the acceptance criteria of their met that's not the same procedure as when you do a fire strategy using approved document b which is what we did and what was it
00:22:29 which is what we did and what was it that told you that you should use approved document b when doing your strategy is the framework for it as opposed to PD seven nine seven four because approved document b is a very
00:22:41 because approved document b is a very commonly used document and it's what most of the people in the regulatory authorities are familiar with and it's it's a it's a general guidance
00:22:54 and it's it's a it's a general guidance document that's used a lot yeah and then we just repeat my question what was it about your instructions that led you to use approved document b when doing your
00:23:05 use approved document b when doing your strategy as the framework as opposed to pd seven nine seven four i don't think there was anything specific in the scope
00:23:17 there was anything specific in the scope which said which documents I should use I just decided that an approved document b would be the most appropriate one to assess the building against I see you
00:23:29 assess the building against I see you decided that to do yes welcome we'll come back to that in due course then dr. Barker can I then turn to your initial involvement in the Grenville tower
00:23:40 involvement in the Grenville tower project and we mentioned a moment ago Andrew McCracken can I ask you please to look at EXO five zeros two for two
00:23:56 this is an email from him to you of the 24th of July 2012 do you see that Claire as discussed thar Andrew and under it he
00:24:08 as discussed thar Andrew and under it he forwards to you an email from Margaret Trina to David Harris and him of the same date do you see that hmm and he simply says in his email to you
00:24:21 and he simply says in his email to you as discussed and underneath it you can see Miss Trina's email we'll look at that in a moment um was this your first involvement with Grenville tower yes what was discussed
00:24:32 Grenville tower yes what was discussed between Andrew McCracken and you do you remember and my recollection of it was I received a telephone call from him where
00:24:44 received a telephone call from him where he explained that he was unable to attend the meeting himself Terry Ashton was unable to attend the meeting himself and David Harris who's
00:24:56 meeting himself and David Harris who's referred to as died here was also unable to go to the meeting so they wanted somebody to attend from x over and asked
00:25:08 somebody to attend from x over and asked that I go
00:25:14 I see and did you read miss Trina's email yes you did and what doing say you can see that she says and let's look at it together
00:25:25 it together she says underneath that I'm afraid you've drawn the short straw again do you to die going off tomorrow and then
00:25:37 you to die going off tomorrow and then she says in the second paragraph we have not been as involved I don't think as we should have and Bruce is wondering whether we want to be involved is my impression which could be wrong you see
00:25:48 impression which could be wrong you see that do you know what was the reason that miss Trina thought xover had not been as involved as it should have been I think it was possibly due to Terry's
00:26:00 I think it was possibly due to Terry's absence from work I see and did you discuss that with Miss Trina or theirs mr. McCracken I can't remember right
00:26:12 mr. McCracken I can't remember right when you say you think is that you remembering now or was that your thought at the time that was my thought at the time because Terry had been absent for a
00:26:25 time because Terry had been absent for a lot longer than we initially anticipated I see all right now in the first sentence as I've read it to you she miss Trina suggests that the person dealing with the Granville Tower fire safety strategy has she says drawn the short
00:26:38 strategy has she says drawn the short straw
00:26:39 straw why was working on this project a short straw possibly because of the distance from Warrington to London we have a London office but nobody was available
00:26:50 London office but nobody was available from that office to attend the meeting which meant that somebody had to travel down you say you say possibly is that you speculating now or was that your
00:27:01 you speculating now or was that your thought at the time that that was the reason that was the reason at the time okay I see so the distance between Warrington and London presented is this
00:27:13 Warrington and London presented is this right and then what if it wasn't about but is this the way you saw it that presented a bit of an inherent problem in producing the fast the existing fire safety strategy for grenfell Tower and I don't think the distance presented
00:27:28 and I don't think the distance presented a problem
00:27:28 a problem I think people's workload and capacity at the time it was a factor understand
00:27:41 at the time it was a factor understand workload and capacity you mentioned distance so do we add to the list distance as well yes yes now you then attended a project meeting
00:27:53 now you then attended a project meeting on the 26th of July 2012 do you remember that yes I have a recollection of it okay now the minutes all right EXO zero zero zero zero one six two zero
00:28:05 EXO zero zero zero zero one six two zero if we can please have those up this is project meeting number five at two o'clock in the afternoon at Apple Yards
00:28:17 o'clock in the afternoon at Apple Yards who became known not long after this as art Elia and if you look at the list of those present you can see three from the bottom that you are there and at the bottom of the list mr. stones is there
00:28:30 bottom of the list mr. stones is there as well from Studio E now there's nearly two look at it but your statement at paragraph three point four says that this meeting was the only meeting in
00:28:41 this meeting was the only meeting in relation to Grenville tower that you attended is that right when you attended this meeting on the 26th of July 2012
00:28:52 this meeting on the 26th of July 2012 had you seen the x over fee proposal of the 11th of June 2012 yes you had do you
00:29:03 the 11th of June 2012 yes you had do you remember when you first saw that document
00:29:08 I think it was when Andrew folded me Margaret's email because I think from that email they were attached yeah I see
00:29:19 that email they were attached yeah I see so - so that would have been two days before yes perhaps we could just verify that and chase that up if you could go back to it please it's EXO five zeroes - four - let's just double check if we can
00:29:37 and it does look as if the attachments comprised two fee proposals there so one of them your your yes we can chase those up we need to but there that we know
00:29:49 up we need to but there that we know there were two one for the existing and one for that because the outline proposed and one of them would have been that so - so 24th of July 2012 now if you go to the minutes they record
00:30:01 you go to the minutes they record discussions relating to the design for the refurbishment if we could just go back to this again it's 1620 if you look look down we can see that the general
00:30:13 look down we can see that the general discussion if you're just shown the next page or two is the design for the refurbishment of Grenfell tower so can we take it that you knew by the 26th of
00:30:25 we take it that you knew by the 26th of July that Grenfell tower was to be refurbished yes yes can we go to page four of this document please under the heading quantity surveyor you
00:30:38 under the heading quantity surveyor you can see at the bottom there just above next meeting it records that there is no existing first strategy for the building x over to proceed and then the action
00:30:50 x over to proceed and then the action list x over and it was there any discussion at the meeting about the absence of any existing fire strategy for the building do you remember the may
00:31:01 for the building do you remember the may have been but I don't remember did it surprise you that a high-rise residential building in use since 1974 had no existing fire strategy at all
00:31:14 no not really because of the age of it because of the age of it because it was a considerably old building if it had
00:31:25 a considerably old building if it had been a younger building what what date of construction would it have had to have in order to have an existing fire safety strategy I would have expected something that was constructed in the 90s to have had a strategy right so was
00:31:40 90s to have had a strategy right so was it your understanding that existing fire safety strategies came with the building when constructed as opposed to being done later in relation to an existing building and it possibly could have had one if it had been refurbished over the
00:31:52 one if it had been refurbished over the life of its over the life of the building right can I just ask a side question here what influence on your
00:32:03 question here what influence on your thinking did the fact that the existence of the regulatory reform order from 2004 have um the need to have a fire safety
00:32:14 have um the need to have a fire safety strategy in multi occupancy buildings whenever they were constructed sorry could you could you repeat the question yes what influence on your thinking did
00:32:26 yes what influence on your thinking did that did the requirements of the fire that did the of the regulatory reform or to have or on the need to have a fire strategy for the building regardless of when it was constructed
00:32:45 I don't think it had much influence were you given any instructions at this meeting or any guidance as to the scope of work I don't remember
00:32:57 of work I don't remember were you given any indication as to the purpose of producing the existing fire safety strategy in relation to the refurbishment works I don't remember any
00:33:09 refurbishment works I don't remember any being given any instruction at that meeting with regard to to that when it said X over to proceed was that recording you agreeing to proceed
00:33:21 recording you agreeing to proceed to produce a an existing fire safety strategy yes right once we'd received the fiak sentence I see so when you said
00:33:32 the fiak sentence I see so when you said when it says X over to proceed can we take it that you agreed to proceed on the basis of the instructions contained in the 11th of June 2012 fee proposal
00:33:43 in the 11th of June 2012 fee proposal yes thank you now let's look and see what was discussed during the meeting if you go to page 2 please first of all
00:33:55 you go to page 2 please first of all back to pages you can see that it says under architecture in the second paragraph windows samples and possible insulated brick slip system tabled
00:34:06 insulated brick slip system tabled proposal to clad over the columns at ground with in situ high quality concrete finish do you remember what that was about no on page 3 under services in services
00:34:23 no on page 3 under services in services starts at the bottom of the previous page on the screen but it says well actually it's the top of page 3 if we
00:34:34 actually it's the top of page 3 if we can it's under services which starts at the bottom of the previous page coordination of cladding do you see that yes sheeting and seasons critical input required from lead bitter where it says
00:34:47 required from lead bitter where it says coordination of cladding do we take it from that that you understood that part of the refurbishment would be include over cladding the exterior of Grantham
00:35:00 yes but I don't remember I don't remember that discussion from the meeting you don't remember the discussion okay well let's just finish this off and see if the next thing I'm
00:35:12 this off and see if the next thing I'm going to show you triggers a recollection page page three same page under contractor LED bitter have considered option of being able to complete over cladding before an
00:35:23 complete over cladding before an independent remove sorry before and independent of removal of existing windows taped it does there's a trigger a recollection that there was at that
00:35:34 a recollection that there was at that point or from that point a proposal to over clad Granville tower as part of the refurbishment no really can't remember
00:35:45 refurbishment no really can't remember at the time did you consider that cladding this building would present any particular issues or problems with regard to fire safety
00:35:57 no I didn't now mister sones says in his statement I ought to show it to you just say your you'll care about it it's se a
00:36:09 say your you'll care about it it's se a three zeros one for 273 that paid fifty one se a 3 0 is 1 for 273 page 51 and paragraph 108 do you see that dr. Barker
00:36:24 paragraph 108 do you see that dr. Barker he says there but
00:36:35 he um it's just three quarters of the way through the paragraph and he refers to an email sure don't need to show you yet
00:36:43 yet he says it was prompted by my having pressed Forex over to attend my recollection is declare was covering for others and hats to travel some distance and had it and had little to contribute for much of the meeting despite this I
00:36:56 for much of the meeting despite this I felt it was important exam a were represented given the importance of fire safety do you agree with what he says there with his recollection yes thank
00:37:09 there with his recollection yes thank you
00:37:09 you now given that I think if you told us you knew that grenfell tower would be over clad although not the details did
00:37:20 over clad although not the details did you raise the need to carry out a fire assessment specifically in relation to the proposed cladding system as the proposal then stood no is there a reason
00:37:36 proposal then stood no is there a reason why you didn't suggest either at this meeting or separately to mr. stones that advice on the specific cladding system should be included in the fire safety
00:37:48 should be included in the fire safety strategy either the one that you were being asked to do or the or the outline proposed for the refurbishment no is
00:37:59 proposed for the refurbishment no is there a reason why but let me ask it differently did was the question of the need for cavity barriers within the cladding took that should form part of the fire strategy discussed at all
00:38:12 the fire strategy discussed at all not at that meeting not at that meeting let's then look at the fee proposal if we can so I'm just changing to that topic and to look at it it's at TMO one
00:38:26 topic and to look at it it's at TMO one double zero three double seven to one
00:38:43 and
00:38:48 this is addressed to mr. stones date of the 11th of June 2012 and as you've told us you first saw this in mr. McCracken's email to you of the 24th of July 2012
00:39:04 how familiar were you with the with the this brief and proposal when you has become too instructed Kate Cooney to
00:39:15 become too instructed Kate Cooney to carry out the drafting of the strategy I
00:39:23 was familiar with it I'd read it you'd read it did you understand what was within the scope I think I did at the time okay let's look at that it's a page
00:39:34 time okay let's look at that it's a page two of ten under proposed the scope of work and if you just look at that it says that the aim of the work would be
00:39:45 says that the aim of the work would be the production of a retrospective fire safety strategy report for the existing building and then it would go or it goes on to say this report will serve to
00:39:56 on to say this report will serve to inform the fire safety risk assessment and fire risk management plan for the building the design of the building will be assessed against relevant design codes relating to the statutory
00:40:08 codes relating to the statutory requirements on the design of the building under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 and also under Section 20 of the London building acts Amendment Act 1939 if the building falls
00:40:19 Amendment Act 1939 if the building falls within the size criteria specified by that legislation you see that just just focusing on those words at the moment
00:40:30 focusing on those words at the moment first of all how was the report or the strategy that was to be produced inform the fire safety risk assessment so the
00:40:41 the fire safety risk assessment so the fire strategy sets down how the building design meets the functional requirements of the building regulations so for example it will say a certain standard of d'Or is required
00:40:54 a certain standard of d'Or is required to stare or a certain fire resistance is required or that certain means a warning are required so when those items in
00:41:09 are required so when those items in strategy when a fire risk assessment is carried out once the building is occupied then the risk Assessor can go around and check that those items are
00:41:20 around and check that those items are there the risk Assessor will check that escape routes are kept clear and will also check that the warning systems etc
00:41:33 also check that the warning systems etc are there that have been specified in the strategy I see how was the report that you were to draft all that miss Cooney was instructed by you to draft to inform the
00:41:44 instructed by you to draft to inform the fire risk management plan for the building as you can see there so that would be with regard to the stay-put
00:41:55 would be with regard to the stay-put policy for the flats however the other parts of the building at the Boxing Club and the nursery were essentially
00:42:09 and the nursery were essentially separate entities with a different evacuation procedure whereas there would be a simultaneous evacuation procedure you say there's the boxing club
00:42:23 you say there's the boxing club oh I see occupy would operate on a simultaneous evacuation the nursery I see and operate on a different evacuation procedure and what about the other parts of the building namely the
00:42:35 other parts of the building namely the residential parts what evacuation procedure would they have they would have a staple policy they say do you call a staple a policy animation in place yes yes it is yeah how do you say it is and is that is
00:42:47 yeah how do you say it is and is that is that the common parlance and understanding at the time yes I see how did you envisage that the existing fire safety strategy that was to be produced would assist the TMO in
00:42:59 produced would assist the TMO in discharging their duties under the regulatory reform fire safety order again they would know what systems there
00:43:10 again they would know what systems there were in the building that would need to be checked and maintained did was it part of putting this report together that you would talk to the TMO to find
00:43:23 that you would talk to the TMO to find out what they knew about those parts of the built systems in the building that needed to be checked and maintained and
00:43:34 probably at some point yes at some point in what process and probably well the draft report was produced and with a
00:43:48 draft report was produced and with a number of caveats in it and things that needed to be clarified so at some point after that very well we'll come back we'll we'll come back to revisit that
00:43:59 we'll we'll come back to revisit that question in due course we don't see any reference here to the health and safety legislation was the report to inform compliance with that No
00:44:17 the scope of the work if you continue down says that in the next paragraph the scope of the work for the project with death will include a site visit expected
00:44:31 death will include a site visit expected to take no longer than half a day to survey the building's architecture and fire safety systems and the compilation of the fire safety strategy report you see that yes what was the purpose of the
00:44:42 see that yes what was the purpose of the proposed site visit and I assume that the person that went to site would look at the detection systems at present
00:44:59 at the detection systems at present silicates any ventilation system that was present within the lobbies to the flats on the residential levels to look
00:45:10 flats on the residential levels to look at if there was any ventilation at the head of the stair under general walk
00:45:23 head of the stair under general walk round of the building to look at where the escape routes were from the residential and from the other parts of the building you have non-residential parts of the building how important to
00:45:38 parts of the building how important to carrying out the proposed scope of work was the proposed site visit what I said it was fairly important so fairly can
00:45:50 it was fairly important so fairly can you help elaborate yes it would have certainly informed the fire safety strategy report by knowing what was there on-site yes did you
00:46:03 what was there on-site yes did you expect a record of the site visit to be kept I did think one would have been made by the person who did the site
00:46:15 made by the person who did the site visit right and again dr. Baca will come back to the flat visit question a little bit later just continuing down through this escape if we can
00:46:26 this escape if we can it says under in the fourth paragraph down the scope of works if you just follow that with me this scope of works is based on the assumption that a
00:46:38 is based on the assumption that a detailed appraisal is not required of the structural fire protection to the load-bearing elements of structure or of the fire compartment ation within the building however if it should transpire
00:46:49 building however if it should transpire during the site survey that such an appraisal is necessary then the scope of works can be extended to cover this subject to a separate fee agreement on what basis was the assumption made to
00:47:03 what basis was the assumption made to the best of your recollection that an appraisal of the structural fire protection of the compartment ation was not necessary
00:47:15 I'm not sure to be honest is that something that you queried with either mr. stones or the person who put this
00:47:27 mr. stones or the person who put this proposal together James Lee I would say it was assumed that because the building with the concrete building that it possessed the necessary fire resistance
00:47:42 possessed the necessary fire resistance as well as because at the time that it was constructed and it was required to be building with to our fire resistance to the structural elements and as it
00:47:56 to the structural elements and as it says underneath about carrying out a site survey to do that appraisal that wouldn't be something that we could do right did you know that James Lee had who's the author of this report of Sarek
00:48:09 who's the author of this report of Sarek proposal had undertaken a site visit on the 29th of May 2012 I know that now I didn't know that when I went to the
00:48:21 didn't know that when I went to the meeting on the the meeting on the 26th of July I see did you know would it follow that you didn't know at that time that he had taken photographs of the tower no I didn't know at that time and
00:48:34 tower no I didn't know at that time and now you said a minute ago you know that now when did you learn that mr. Lee had made a site visit on the 29th of May 2012 it was after had been to the
00:48:45 2012 it was after had been to the meeting and when the job folder for the project was copied to the Manchester server because it was originally on the
00:48:57 server because it was originally on the London server the job folder for the project yes each project has an electronic job folder server can I just explore that a little and when was the
00:49:09 explore that a little and when was the job folder copy to the Manchester server first do you remember I think it was after had been to the meeting so it was sometime after the the week the week
00:49:21 sometime after the the week the week after during the next week it would be week commencing the 30th I think yes and what was in the job folder you remember and the job folder has the
00:49:33 you remember and the job folder has the feed proposals in it and that was where the photographs were I said were taken was there anything else in the job folder at that time I don't remember there being anything else in there would
00:49:45 there being anything else in there would you have expected there to be anything else in the job folder and not in terms of a report or anything and I thought
00:49:58 of a report or anything and I thought that there might have been drawings if drawings had been sent over in order to do the feed proposals for the refurbishment because there were the two feet proposals and I thought there might
00:50:13 feet proposals and I thought there might have been a bit more of a summary of James's findings from his site visits but I don't remember seeing anything do
00:50:24 but I don't remember seeing anything do you remember thinking that you should follow up and find out whether there was a summary in existence of James Lee's visit and no because if he had had done
00:50:39 visit and no because if he had had done one bit of puts it in the job folder I see so can we just get this right that you looked at the job folder you saw that James Lee has not put in it a report of his site visit so did you
00:50:51 report of his site visit so did you assume that therefore he had not done one yes I see would it be unusual for James Lee or or a senior consultant in his position to have made a site visit
00:51:03 his position to have made a site visit and not made a report
00:51:08 it would depend on the job and I wasn't that familiar with projects that James had worked on during his time at X over with him being from a different office
00:51:21 with him being from a different office but I did assume I would have thought that there would have been a bit more by way of some summary of findings from his
00:51:33 way of some summary of findings from his side visit now do you remember when James Lee
00:51:39 James Lee sorry--but tried this differently J it's right isn't it I think that James Lee left X over in July 2000 and he left the Friday before I went to the meeting so
00:51:50 Friday before I went to the meeting so xx yes that's the date he put he put in his statement yes so does that tell us that you first became involved in Granville Tower on the 24th of July for
00:52:01 Granville Tower on the 24th of July for four days after he had left yes and did you have any opportunity to speak to James Lee weather about his May site visit or anything else about Granville
00:52:13 visit or anything else about Granville tower no I didn't say can we take it from that that he never told you about the weather it was safe to assume that
00:52:24 the weather it was safe to assume that the appraisal of the structural fire protection to delay bearing elements of the structure or fire complementation wasn't required no and so can we also take it that you would never have had
00:52:35 take it that you would never have had accomplished that would didn't have a conversation with him at all about what he found on his site visit no I didn't do you know whether anybody else in its over had a conversation with James Lee
00:52:46 over had a conversation with James Lee about his site visit in May to grenfell tower I don't know where than anybody did right
00:52:57 right now halfway down the page it says still under proposed scope of work in developing the report we would use our expert knowledge of fire safety design
00:53:08 expert knowledge of fire safety design codes you see that which codes were those do you think very document B that's approved document b and
00:53:22 is that or was that your own personal assumption of what James Lee was proposing in this fee proposal or was
00:53:33 proposing in this fee proposal or was that something that you got from something else within the fee proposal
00:53:43 and
00:53:50 I don't know really I think I'm
00:53:57 given that it was an existing building it was more straightforward to use approved document b as the benchmark and measure it against that I see when you
00:54:10 measure it against that I see when you instructed and Lissa's leap forward a little bit in time but when you instructed Kate Cooney to proceed to draft the existing fire safety strategy did you have a conversation with her about the about using approved document
00:54:22 about the about using approved document b as the fire safety design code so to speak as opposed to any other code yes we did okay now can we then move on to
00:54:34 we did okay now can we then move on to your team and your role
00:54:41 it was envisaged in the fee proposal that the fire safety team would be based in the London office if you want you can see that on the same page we're still on
00:54:52 see that on the same page we're still on under fire engineering team you see that yes now mr. Cooney told the inquiry back in March that normally this project
00:55:03 in March that normally this project would have been lat run out of the London office that's correct yes right that was my first question my next question is what changed which meant that the Warrington team from the Warrington office was to
00:55:14 team from the Warrington office was to carry it out and well James left and Terry was absent and at the time and I
00:55:27 Terry was absent and at the time and I also think due to workload at the time David Harris who was he didn't run the London office but he was in charge I think he was the director and he also
00:55:41 think he was the director and he also wasn't based all the time down in London so he didn't have a lot of capacity to take on the work and and the other members of the team in London didn't
00:55:52 members of the team in London didn't have the capacity to do it so due to Bruce pressing for somebody to attend
00:55:59 attend and we were asked in Warrenton to help out
00:56:03 out I see now as we know from this document James Lee was the consultant who would
00:56:16 James Lee was the consultant who would lead the project wasn't he yes and he says in his witness statement and we can look at it if you like but I'll quote from it verbatim he says this would mean
00:56:27 from it verbatim he says this would mean acting as a project manager and handling the day-to-day contact with the client in relation to the work stream first of all is what I've just read out to you from his statement correct in your
00:56:38 from his statement correct in your understanding of what that role involved yes when he left the project who was assigned do you remember to take his place to lead it and when I went to the
00:56:55 place to lead it and when I went to the meeting it was I understood that Terry would be taking over the project for the refurbishment because we'd been informed
00:57:07 refurbishment because we'd been informed and a relatedness to the design team that Terry would be back on the 6th of August so he was going to be doing that role for the refurbishment yes but as
00:57:19 role for the refurbishment yes but as the requirement for the existing building fire strategy seemed to be more pressing as well we decided that the
00:57:33 pressing as well we decided that the existing building fire strategy would be carried out from the Warrington office yes and my question who was assigned to take James Lee's place to lead the
00:57:45 take James Lee's place to lead the project for the existing fire safety strategy that was the subject of this fee proposal oh I suppose initially it was me but then I handed that job to
00:57:57 was me but then I handed that job to Kate well Kate wasn't leading the project she was she has told us like we're doing her work under your supervision it would be me then you say
00:58:08 supervision it would be me then you say it would be me was there actually any appointment or assignment of the lead role for the existing fire safety
00:58:19 role for the existing fire safety strategy not formally no right so at what point did you understand that you
00:58:31 what point did you understand that you had taken James Lee's place as the leader of the project I suppose I'm at the meeting you say you
00:58:43 I suppose I'm at the meeting you say you suppose of the meeting did you know that at the meeting or is that something you're putting together now
00:58:58 yes and I knew at the meeting right and would that mean and did you understand it to mean at the time but you as project manager from the meeting 26th of
00:59:11 project manager from the meeting 26th of July would be managing the project until it was completed no it was my understanding that I would be managing that project until Terry came back and
00:59:23 that project until Terry came back and as soon as Terry came back it was always my intention to hand that project back to Terry so that it could be run from the London office I follow so just
00:59:40 the London office I follow so just summarizing if I can hope accurately where where that takes us you had taken over based on what you saw from the fee
00:59:51 over based on what you saw from the fee proposal and was going to lead the project temporarily until Terry Ashton took it over is that as I got that right yes I fully and do you know why James Lee was not replaced on this project and
01:00:05 Lee was not replaced on this project and when I say this project I mean the project for the existing fire safety strategy do you know why he wasn't replaced on that with a london-based lead when he left well I think the
01:00:17 lead when he left well I think the intention would have been for Terry to take over immediately what Terry was absent due to illness and I think that the other members of the
01:00:29 I think that the other members of the team in the London office didn't have sufficient capacity I see to take on the project right so again and if this is unfair as a summary please say but but you were basically the Warrington
01:00:41 you were basically the Warrington stopgap leader yes that's fair to say can I then turn to a slightly different topic which is the information gathered to prepare the report for the existing
01:00:54 to prepare the report for the existing fire safety strategy what steps did you take do you remember to ensure that sufficient information regarding the existing building was obtained by x over in order to produce a comprehensive
01:01:07 in order to produce a comprehensive existing building fire safety strategy we obtained the drawings for the building existing building they were the original drawings for the building and
01:01:19 original drawings for the building and we also had the current fire risk assessment for the building then I believe that Kate contacted Bruce on a
01:01:35 believe that Kate contacted Bruce on a couple of occasions to obtain information regarding the ventilation of the common lobbies you mentioned the fr
01:01:48 the common lobbies you mentioned the fr a yes we will look at that into your course was that in the job folder you referred to or did you get that separately if you had got it separately
01:02:03 separately if you had got it separately and I know this is something you may not remember either but where would you think you would have got it from either the client or the architects may have
01:02:16 the client or the architects may have had it in an email dick tools right you say the client that was who okay see TMO yeah did you have any contact or
01:02:29 yeah did you have any contact or connection with KC t mo other than perhaps the meeting of the 26th of July in relation to carry on your work no
01:02:40 in relation to carry on your work no during the meeting that we've just been discussing you I think requested a copy of the specification for the smoke extract system for Grenfell Tower yes did you request any further information
01:02:52 did you request any further information about the existing building just the drawings of the drawings why didn't you ask for any any further information I can't remember okay did you have a
01:03:09 I can't remember okay did you have a discussion with Miss Cooney when you instructed her that she would need to obtain further information about the existing building in order to carry out her work
01:03:17 her work I believe I did yes what did you what informational documents did you discuss with her that she would have to get the drawings and
01:03:28 she would have to get the drawings and the fire risk assessment right
01:03:40 we'll come and see the instructions in a moment but were there further drawings that neither of you had at that time which you felt you needed for the
01:03:54 which you felt you needed for the existing building yes I'm not aware that we needed any other drawings right this
01:04:08 we needed any other drawings right this is general I got to turn to a different topic which won't produce an obvious break in the next five minutes it may be convenient to the witnessin to you to take one now I'm in your hands
01:04:21 take one now I'm in your hands we'll take more than five yes it will
01:04:31 maybe maybe fifteen minutes thank you dr. Barker I'd like to examine with you
01:04:43 dr. Barker I'd like to examine with you then the next topic which is allocation of resources and internal processes as at the summer of 2012 can we first look please at EXO 5 0 6 6 8
01:05:11 now this is an email chain can I which actually finishes on the 8th of August 2012 as you can see at the top can we
01:05:23 2012 as you can see at the top can we look down please at an email earlier in the chain at page 3 this is an email from YouTube Bruce owns on the 30th of July 2012 you
01:05:34 Bruce owns on the 30th of July 2012 you see that yes and you say good afternoon Bruce thank you for sending me the information regarding the smoke exhaust stroke ventilation you see that yes
01:05:46 stroke ventilation you see that yes and then you tell him in the first paragraph of a bullet mm-hmm because main paragraph that you'd not receive the acceptance from Apple yards of the fee proposal for the existing building
01:05:58 fee proposal for the existing building only for the upgrade you see that yes and we know that you receive that acceptance the next day you don't need to see it just for our purposes in the transcript it's EXO 5 zeroes 1 to 2 but
01:06:12 transcript it's EXO 5 zeroes 1 to 2 but you go on to say in this email in the third paragraph in terms of allocating resources to this project I'm happy to work on the first strategy for the existing grenfell tower from the
01:06:24 existing grenfell tower from the Warrington office and we'll aim to get the report to you before the deadline of the 16th of August you see that yes and then you go on to say July and August are generally fairly quiet months for
01:06:35 are generally fairly quiet months for for the fire engineering division as it is holiday time for a lot of people however this year it seems to have gone a bit mad and we will have had a number of large projects coming at once as I
01:06:47 of large projects coming at once as I mentioned at the meeting my colleague Terry Ashton will be back at work on the 6th of August so it may be better if he continued with the project during the our IBA c2e stages as I'm on annual leave for the last two weeks in August I
01:06:59 leave for the last two weeks in August I hope this is acceptable now first of all where do you think you've got the deadline of the 16th of August from
01:07:13 that was my last day at work so that's where I've got the deadline from right okay so this wasn't a deadline imposed by him or extraneous circumstances as it
01:07:25 by him or extraneous circumstances as it was essentially personal I think so now I don't remember writing it down at the time um however I haven't got those notes anymore but um yes that was my
01:07:38 notes anymore but um yes that was my last day in work before and you'll leave so I just connected the two and it was the understanding that the strategy needed to be done for them all the first
01:07:49 needed to be done for them all the first draft of the existing strategy needed to be done for them because otherwise we would be into September right now you say in we've just seen it in the fifth main paragraph just in the last oh sorry
01:08:02 main paragraph just in the last oh sorry the penultimate line it may be better if kateri Ashton continued with the project during the Riv acte stages and that's because you're on annual leave for the
01:08:14 because you're on annual leave for the last two weeks in August did you know what relevant qualifications or experience mr. Ashton possessed that would make it appropriate for him to continue with the project yes yes he's a
01:08:28 continue with the project yes yes he's a very experienced engineer who's spent a lot of time working in local authority Building Control and what about qualifications in terms of a fire
01:08:40 qualifications in terms of a fire engineering qualification yes you didn't have one right do you know whether mr. Ashton had undertaken formal training or education relating to fire engineering I
01:08:52 education relating to fire engineering I don't know specifically no why did you consider that mr. Ashton was the most appropriate person within X over to deal with this project because he was the
01:09:03 with this project because he was the senior member in the London team and because he'd had over 30 years of experience working in Building Control where he'd had experience with fire strategies and he knew
01:09:15 strategies and he knew the cult and the building regulations right do you know what experience he had specifically in advising on fire safety
01:09:26 specifically in advising on fire safety strategies for over cladding high-rise residential buildings I don't know what experience you had specifically you
01:09:40 experience you had specifically you refer to his experience as as 30 years of experience working in Building Control they had experience of fire with
01:09:51 Control they had experience of fire with fire strategies and knew the codes and Building Regulations
01:09:56 was that why was that relevant to the production of an existing fire safety strategy specifically because I suppose
01:10:09 strategy specifically because I suppose he's spent a number of years on the other side of the table in effect right and so you produce a fire safety strategy normally for a building well
01:10:23 strategy normally for a building well generally you produce a fire strategy for a building that hasn't been built yet and you are presenting that design to the regulatory authorities for their approval so approved document b is one
01:10:36 approval so approved document b is one of the most core compliance with approved document b it's one of the most common methods of doing that so terry has been on the other side he's been on
01:10:49 has been on the other side he's been on the regulatory side so and he knew how to apply the code for the designs
01:11:00 yes I see
01:11:05 and and they were look put words in your mouth would it follow that he knew also knew what building control would accept
01:11:14 yes I suppose he would have a good idea of what building control does it I see okay now was there anybody else in the
01:11:30 okay now was there anybody else in the office given that you miss Cooney and take it from me Andrew crackin were all due to go on holiday from the 17th of August and things have gone a bit mad
01:11:41 August and things have gone a bit mad was there anybody else in the office who could have done that the job other than mr. Ashton in the London office in either actually and in the London office
01:11:53 either actually and in the London office as I say there was David Harris and he was on leave when I went to that meeting and Tony Pearson was in the London
01:12:06 and Tony Pearson was in the London office and I think there was a graduate so I wouldn't have allocated the task necessarily to a graduate no I'm I'm
01:12:17 necessarily to a graduate no I'm I'm from memory and Tony didn't have the capacity right within the Warrington office the other member of staff Andrew
01:12:29 office the other member of staff Andrew Martin he didn't have the capacity neither
01:12:33 neither what about mr. Harris in the London office and
01:12:39 I don't think I can't remember to be honest but he was on leave which is why I went to that meeting he could still have been on leave after that I don't know whether he just gone on leave and I
01:12:50 know whether he just gone on leave and I don't know what qualifications and experience did mr. Harris have to take over or do the existing fire safety strategy for Grenfell and he hasn't got
01:13:03 strategy for Grenfell and he hasn't got fire engineering qualification he does have an engineering degree and he'd been working for Warrenton fire since 2001 so it had 10 years experience of producing
01:13:16 it had 10 years experience of producing fire strategies did he have any experience of residential high-rise blocks I don't know now mr. Sains
01:13:28 blocks I don't know now mr. Sains replies to your email that we see here on the 7th of August and that is at exo 5 0 6 6 8 at page 2 and he says this is
01:13:43 5 0 6 6 8 at page 2 and he says this is to you copy to mr. Ashton apologies for not responding sooner I've been distracted but couldn't understand where you've got the 16th of August deadline this is the planning deadline any impact the fast-track she has on the overall
01:13:54 the fast-track she has on the overall scheme needs to be understood sooner than this ideal we should be submitting a stage seed type document to the client for the end of this week or next week it
01:14:05 for the end of this week or next week it would be enough to know that you have reviewed the scheme and have no significant comments straight reservations to make and the strategy for fire safety is achievable and any implications on the layout and external
01:14:16 implications on the layout and external works is understood by the rest of the design team this might sound unreasonable but the project has been live for some time notwithstanding the delay on formal appointments see attach markup provided by James Lee data 30th
01:14:27 markup provided by James Lee data 30th of May I discussed it once with him over the phone but I'm not convinced I've interpreted it correctly no I've read that all to you because it's important you see it all and is it right that you
01:14:39 you see it all and is it right that you and indeed miss Cooney were suddenly under a huge pressure of time for mr. Sainz
01:14:49 yes in some ways because that's email was implying that he wanted the stage C report which was for the refurbishment and it was my understanding from the
01:15:03 and it was my understanding from the meeting that we'd had that's Terry would be doing that when he came back from his absence and that the existing fire
01:15:14 absence and that the existing fire strategy was something that we were carrying out so then that I think that was where the confusion lay but yes it did it did put a bit of pressure up yeah in fact the deadline was even sooner
01:15:26 in fact the deadline was even sooner than what you thought was the deadline name is a 16th of August yes and I think you we see this in a document you found that a bit irritating I think yes because um I didn't know where the
01:15:40 because um I didn't know where the confusion had come from possibly it was me introducing my own deadline that confused confused him and however I thought I had made it clear that the
01:15:54 thought I had made it clear that the Warrenton office would not be doing a refurbishment work was it do you did you think it was realistic to expect you and mr. Cooney to produce the existing fire
01:16:06 mr. Cooney to produce the existing fire safety strategy and indeed the outline fire safety strategy for the refurbishment within the timeframe which mr. Sainz was demanding yes realistic to
01:16:18 mr. Sainz was demanding yes realistic to expect two strategies in that timeframe did you protest to him
01:16:26 I don't recall having a conversation with him is there a reason why you didn't have a conversation with him given that what he was asking you to do was unrealistic I can't remember now you
01:16:46 was unrealistic I can't remember now you forwarded this chain to Terry Ashton on the 8th of August as we can see from the next document EXO 5 zeroes 6 6 8 page 1 just scroll up same same document top
01:16:58 just scroll up same same document top email hi Terry hope you're well and recovered from your illness this is you to mr. Ashton copy to mr. Cooney and you you say there I went to this meeting nor
01:17:11 you say there I went to this meeting nor absence as I was asked to work from the London office that day the email below from Bruce's irritated me a little to say the least I've asked Kate to do the fire strategy
01:17:22 I've asked Kate to do the fire strategy for the existing tower building and so far this is the only part of the project that we've had the fees accepted on if Bruce wants us to do the next stage then we need to have the fees accepted this has not happened yet you see that and
01:17:37 has not happened yet you see that and then you say the only thing that concerns me about the first strategy for the upgrade is that both myself Kate and Andrew a Kraken or all on annual leave from next Friday 17th of August for two weeks and then it goes on about dates in
01:17:50 weeks and then it goes on about dates in fact I think it's right that you had actually sent miss Cooney an email on the 7th of August the day before which suggests that you had by then asked her to undertake the compilation of the existing fire safety strategy yes yes
01:18:03 existing fire safety strategy yes yes and we and just again the reference to that and we'll come back to it in a moment is EXO four zeros one six one three just for our transcript but just just looking at this email we're on exa
01:18:16 just looking at this email we're on exa 5 0 6 6 8 page 1 you you have you mentioned that you're concerned about people being away as I've read to you
01:18:28 and that that was a concern did you have a did you have sufficient resources to submit a stage C type document in the time scale stipulated by mr. stones in
01:18:44 time scale stipulated by mr. stones in the Warrington office know all about the London office
01:18:51 and well I I understood that Terry would be undertaking the stage see reports and
01:19:01 and I was confident that Terry could produce a first draft of a stage C report within the timeframe that Bruce
01:19:12 report within the timeframe that Bruce required did you understand what information would need to be included in a stage C report yes what was that and
01:19:23 a stage C report yes what was that and stage a stage C report is quite a quite a high level and it can be quite a brief document where you state the
01:19:36 document where you state the requirements of we want to be five for example you would say and in the common lobbies ad B requires that the travel
01:19:49 lobbies ad B requires that the travel distances are 7.5 meters in a single direction and whereas when you get further through the Rheba stages you would state that and then you would also state what the travel distances are and
01:20:01 state what the travel distances are and if they didn't comply what mitigating measurement measures you were put in place so that there would be it would be quite a brief document can I just ask
01:20:12 quite a brief document can I just ask you then to go back to mr. stones is email of the 7th of August at page 2 in this email chain where he says apologies
01:20:23 this email chain where he says apologies very says apologies for not responding sooner and he refers to the stage C type document you see that um can I just look at the last sentence of that paragraph we looked at it before but he refers
01:20:36 we looked at it before but he refers there to the far it strategy for fire safety is achievable and any implications on the layout and external works is understood by the rest of the design team his reference to external
01:20:51 design team his reference to external works what did you understand him to mean there I take external words to mean and
01:20:57 and scaping at ground level that's outside the building within the site what about the over cladding which had been discussed to your knowledge as you told us earlier at the 26th of July project
01:21:09 us earlier at the 26th of July project meeting that you attended when you came down to London I don't think he means that why is that because I think he would have said cladding if he meant flooding not external works I see
01:21:28 now in that same email he refers as we've seen to an attached markup provided by James leav the 30th of May do you remember whether you asked mr.
01:21:40 do you remember whether you asked mr. Sains if he needed assistance in interpreting that document no I didn't ask him do you know whether he was ever provided with assistance in interpreting it I don't know for sure however I think
01:21:55 it I don't know for sure however I think that cait's looked at that drawing markup right because I think that is the fourth floor alterations that were
01:22:07 fourth floor alterations that were proposed now is it right looking forward that all xover produced in the timescale stipulated by mr. Sains for the upgrade
01:22:18 stipulated by mr. Sains for the upgrade works as he calls it was the initial design date of the 12th of September 2012 produced by mr. Ashton I think so I'm not sure right did you ever look at
01:22:32 I'm not sure right did you ever look at that initial design note yourself yeah you didn't so if I were to ask you questions about it do I take it you wouldn't be able to answer all right I'm now going to turn to the next topic mr.
01:22:44 now going to turn to the next topic mr. for a subtopic which is the handover to mr. Cooney that maybe I'll give you a little bit of help mr. minute how long do you think we should take material you
01:23:05 do you think we should take material you probably don't know at the moment I think if we take 15 minutes I don't know that maybe if we take 15 minutes they don't that ought to be enough I wouldn't want to take more than 15 minutes we're making a reasonable progress I should
01:23:16 making a reasonable progress I should say good thank you well that's very helpful what I'm going to say is that we'll have a break now
01:23:24 a chance to stretch your legs and we'll come back at quarter to twelve very good mr. champ thank you so if you'd like to go with the usher now she'll take you to that room and we'll resume at quarter 12
01:23:36 that room and we'll resume at quarter 12 days before you go please don't talk to an announce about your evidence on your attitude okay thank you very much
01:23:50 we'll only because now in the event it's cool to talk please
01:42:46 yes would you like to ask dr. box to come back please
01:43:03 right ready to carry on dr. Bacher yes yes dr. Barker and I'd like to examine with you the hand over to Kate Cooney now in your statement of
01:43:15 Cooney now in your statement of paragraph 3.10 we perhaps ought to look at it it's EXO four zeroes one six zero three at page three please you say there that you asked Kate Cooney to produce
01:43:30 that you asked Kate Cooney to produce the fire safety strategy for the existing building and you say in the last sentence you say I cannot remember exactly why I asked mr. Cooney to take over this task but I expect it was due to my having limited capacity over the
01:43:42 to my having limited capacity over the summer period does that mean that ordinarily you would have produced the first draft of the fire safety strategy yourself yes
01:43:57 [Applause] now we if we can go please to an email we saw before which was EXO five zero
01:44:09 we saw before which was EXO five zero six six eight page three this is the email we looked at before together dr. Barker of the 30th of July 2012 where you say good afternoon Bruce thank you
01:44:20 you say good afternoon Bruce thank you for sending me the information and you see that yes and in the second paragraph we looked at this briefly about the fee proposal you say in the last sentence there I telephoned him
01:44:32 there I telephoned him that's mr. Hale David Hale at Apple yards to tell him we'd accepted the wrong fee and he's going to email us the right fee acceptance to us tomorrow and then you say this say that once that
01:44:43 then you say this say that once that arrives we can get started you see that yes now the fee proposal was accepted on the 31st of July 2012 we refer to that earlier and again for our records that's
01:44:55 earlier and again for our records that's EXO five zeroes one to two but we don't see that you instructed mr. Coony to carry out the drafting until the 7th
01:45:06 to carry out the drafting until the 7th of August is that right I think so do you know why you waited an entire week between the 31st of July when you accepted the fee proposal and the 7th of
01:45:20 accepted the fee proposal and the 7th of August I think that was because we didn't receive the drawings until then I see for the existing building then when we did received and there were microfiche drawings right did you make
01:45:36 microfiche drawings right did you make it first of all where did you get those drawings from or who from whom did you get them I can't remember I would have assumed and and it may be wrong that the
01:45:47 assumed and and it may be wrong that the architects would have sent them right do you recall a tall pressing mr. sones to send you the drawing so that you could get your work started as you said you
01:46:00 get your work started as you said you would I don't recall pressing Bruce um but I believe that Kate did chase for the drawings right so I'm just wondering why it was
01:46:13 right so I'm just wondering why it was given that you already had a very tight a deadline for the production of the strategy report and said you could get started as soon as the accept fee
01:46:25 started as soon as the accept fee acceptance comes that you you don't push hard to get the drawing so that you can do the word and you explain that no I can't explain it it's just until we had
01:46:37 can't explain it it's just until we had the drawings we couldn't really start working all right now we have two emails on the 7th and the 8th of August respectively where we can see that you send Kate Cooney some information can we
01:46:49 send Kate Cooney some information can we have those please first of all it's EXO 4 zeros 1 6 1-3 7th of August
01:47:03 we're on the 7th of August you can see top of the page you send miss Cooney some documents do you see those and one of them is the specific specification
01:47:17 of them is the specific specification for the smoke exhaust and ventilation to the residential lobbies and other tower documents yes yes and the next document
01:47:28 documents yes yes and the next document is the 8th of August next day EXO four zeros one six one five if I could just have that please where we see that you
01:47:41 have that please where we see that you send her to documents meeting number seven agenda and notes from what you call meeting six but was it which is it
01:47:53 call meeting six but was it which is it was in fact meeting five of the 26th of July 2012 which you attended now I haven't taken you to the documents for you to confirm that but but we have confirmed that from looking at the
01:48:04 confirmed that from looking at the attachments do you recall that those were what you sent her on that date or do you want to look at the documents I don't remember sending her them but I did yes and take it from me that meeting
01:48:19 did yes and take it from me that meeting six hadn't happened many balls me meeting five do you remember whether you gave any other information to Kate Cooney in order to enable her to draft the existing fire safety strategy no I
01:48:32 the existing fire safety strategy no I didn't give her any more information did you provide mr. Cooney with the fee proposal escape of works document of the 11th of June that mr. Lee had proposed I don't think I physically provided her
01:48:45 don't think I physically provided her with the documents but she was aware that they were in the job folder she was aware that they were in the Job fold and did you tell her that they were in the job folder I can't remember was the job
01:48:57 job folder I can't remember was the job folder accessible to her in the ordinary way it was at that point yes I see did you give her any specific instructions as to the scope of the works
01:49:08 as to the scope of the works I instructed her to produce a fire strategy looking at the existing building to approve document be to
01:49:19 building to approve document be to assess it in line with the approved document b did you do that in writing or orally oh really when did you do that already I can't remember exactly but it would have been
01:49:32 remember exactly but it would have been that week because we used to sit next to each other in the same office right was there anything in the fee proposal which
01:49:44 there anything in the fee proposal which had been signed by mr. Li 11th of June and accepted that led you to think that approved document b would be the
01:49:56 approved document b would be the assessment the basis of the assessment
01:50:01 No so why did you instruct miss Cooney to use Approved Document bead as the basis of the assessment do you think because I
01:50:13 of the assessment do you think because I thought that was the most appropriate guidance document to use for this building and why is that because the fire safety engineering guidance didn't
01:50:27 fire safety engineering guidance didn't seem to be appropriate approved document b covers a number of different types of purpose groups one of which is residential flats so it seemed appropriate to use that document did you
01:50:39 appropriate to use that document did you discuss the appropriateness of using approved document b with anybody else or did you just didn't just just go back a stage a moment you said a moment ago
01:50:52 stage a moment you said a moment ago that ordinarily you would have carried out the existing fire safety strategy review and done the report if you had done it who would have reviewed it who
01:51:04 done it who would have reviewed it who would have peer reviewed it and i'm dreamer kraken I see
01:51:15 do you remember whether you had any other discussions with mr. Cooney in advance of her going ahead and drafting the existing fire safety strategy I don't remember any specific discussions
01:51:27 don't remember any specific discussions however because we worked in the same office and sat next to each other you do discuss things on an ad-hoc basis throughout the day so it's likely that
01:51:39 throughout the day so it's likely that discussions would have occurred I just can't remember them did you give her a deadline to which to work in order to produce the first draft we were working
01:51:51 produce the first draft we were working to the deadline of the 16th of August was that not sorry that was the dates for sending the first draft out she
01:52:02 for sending the first draft out she would need to reduce that a day or two before so that I could review it and that 16th August deadline you told us earlier was the date on which I think you were going on holiday that was my
01:52:14 you were going on holiday that was my last day in work what about mr. Cooney I believe because at the time I wasn't in the office on Friday so my last day would have been a Thursday case would
01:52:25 would have been a Thursday case would have been the Friday yes I see so you were both working to a 16th of August deadline yes because of your impending holiday arrangements that's right now I
01:52:40 holiday arrangements that's right now I just want to ask you a few questions about the peer review process and your role can I ask you please to look at your witness statement a exo one
01:52:51 look at your witness statement a exo one 6:03 at page three four zeros one six eight three page three and let's look together if we can please at the bottom of that page paragraph three point one
01:53:03 of that page paragraph three point one three on 15th of August 2012 you say mr. Cooney asked me to review the draft of the existing fire safety report FS R
01:53:14 the existing fire safety report FS R which she had prepared this was the peer review of the existing FS r a peer review involves reviewing the draft report alongside the drawings the oxide the drawings considered in
01:53:27 the oxide the drawings considered in order to produce that report and to the relevant guidance referred to in the report in this case approved document be in order to ensure that the report was correct see that yes now at her witness
01:53:39 correct see that yes now at her witness statement can I just ask you to see this she at paragraph three point eight and this is EXO five zero four zeros one five nine zero we can put them side by
01:53:54 five nine zero we can put them side by side if we can I don't think we can but I just want to show you this EXO four zeros one five nine zero
01:54:03 paragraph three point eight she says this is page three she says on the 15th
01:54:14 this is page three she says on the 15th of August 2012 I asked miss Barca to review my draft of the existing FS r and sent her the drawings I had used in preparing that draft the peer review
01:54:26 preparing that draft the peer review process at Xavier is part of the document quality control and typically involves someone of equal or greater seniority to the draft or reviewing the report to ensure that there are no clear
01:54:39 report to ensure that there are no clear errors and that it is sound in its basis you see that yes come on next ask you about what I should ask you for do you agree with her do you agree with what she says this can I next
01:54:51 agree with what she says this can I next ask you to look at and mr. Pitts dr. Pearson's witness statement this is EXO four zero is one seven five three please the EXO four zero is one seven five three at page three
01:55:08 and let's go together and look at paragraph 3.9 and he says the process of peer reviewing a report involves
01:55:20 peer reviewing a report involves comparing what is written in the report with any floor plans provided and ensuring one the report is factually correct to that it correlates with the plans three that the approach taken is appropriate for example that the design
01:55:32 appropriate for example that the design is based on the appropriate design codes or any fire engineering analysis are based on sound principles for that it is correct
01:55:41 correct where the report says that there is compliance with the cited design codes and five that the facts logic and mathematics of any fire engineering analyses are correct do you agree with
01:55:52 analyses are correct do you agree with that description of what the peer review process within X over-involved yes can I then next show you a document from Kate
01:56:04 then next show you a document from Kate Cooney exo five zeroes 175 exa five zeroes 175 this is an email from Miss
01:56:18 zeroes 175 this is an email from Miss Cooney it's the second one down on the page to you dr. Barker on the 15th of August data timed at 1537 you see that and it says Claire please can you review
01:56:32 and it says Claire please can you review the existing FS s for the above I have printed out drawings if these helped they probably will you see that yes and you respond the next day 16th of August
01:56:43 you respond the next day 16th of August at 1522 saying you have reviewed it and it was fine you say I have reviewed it and it is fine see that yes I want to ask you some questions now about your
01:56:55 ask you some questions now about your review now first of all miss Cooney says in her email is you've just seen that she's printed out drawings to assist you do you remember what those drawings were
01:57:06 do you remember what those drawings were it would have been the floor plan layouts for each levels but for each of the levels of the residential building I'm probably a section although I can't
01:57:18 I'm probably a section although I can't remember but it would have been the general layouts did you look at those drawings at all when you conducted your review you know in how much detail do you think you look at those I can't
01:57:33 you think you look at those I can't remember and we've counted nine sets of drawings that she said that she had going back to 1971 when the building was
01:57:45 going back to 1971 when the building was designed did you review all of those do you think I can't remember do you remember whether you reviewed the draft
01:57:56 remember whether you reviewed the draft that she had produced the fact draft fire safety strategy alongside the drawings yes I did you did did you check the measurements I
01:58:05 can't remember what other documents did you have to hand when conducting your review of the draft that Miss Cooney had
01:58:16 review of the draft that Miss Cooney had sent you approved document b
01:58:22 did you have the current fire risk assessment for Grenfell tower to hand I think I did but I can't remember let's see if I can put the document in front
01:58:34 see if I can put the document in front of you and see if it triggers a recollection could you please be shown CST 5 sorry six zeros nine zero CST six zeros nine zero this is Carl
01:58:49 CST six zeros nine zero this is Carl Stokes EES fire risk assessment dated the 29th of December 2010 for Grenfell tower you see that yes does that is that
01:59:01 tower you see that yes does that is that a familiar document to you dr. Barker do you think I have read it yes yes but did he does it trigger you having had a recollection of seeing it at the time you conducted your review of this
01:59:12 you conducted your review of this Cooney's Report draft report yes I think I did say it I think you did did you you say you had approved document b to hand do you remember which parts of approved
01:59:24 do you remember which parts of approved document b you looked at when reviewing this Cooney's draft what have lots at B 1 to B 5 B 1 to B 5 right can I ask you
01:59:35 1 to B 5 B 1 to B 5 right can I ask you to get back to your statement please in EXO for zeros one six zero three and look at page four with me let's look at
01:59:48 look at page four with me let's look at paragraph three point one four together you say ordinarily if I had any comments on the draft report I would provide my comments by way of a manuscript markup and would discuss any queries with the
01:59:59 and would discuss any queries with the author however I note from my email of the 16th of August 2012 that's the one we've just been looking at that I replied to miss Cooney to say that I had reviewed the draft and it was fine I am
02:00:10 reviewed the draft and it was fine I am NOT surprised that I had no comments on the existing FS are given ms Cooney's capabilities and her background in building control which would have meant that she was very experienced in working
02:00:21 that she was very experienced in working with fire safety strategies now we can see from the two emails 15th of August and the 16th of August that just
02:00:34 August and the 16th of August that just under 24 hours elapsed between her sending her draft report to you and you reporting back to her that it was as you call it fine how long did you actually
02:00:48 call it fine how long did you actually spend reviewing her draft existing fire safety strategy report do you think I
02:00:55 can't remember and would have said a couple of hours but I don't remember do
02:01:08 couple of hours but I don't remember do you remember when that couple of hours was was it on the 15th immediately on receiving it or the morning of the 16th I would have thought that it would have been on the 16th right given that that
02:01:19 been on the 16th right given that that was your last day in the office did you have other things on your plate yes
02:01:30 how did you review the report did you have a hard copy or did you review it on a screen I honestly can't remember and I
02:01:41 a screen I honestly can't remember and I usually did a hard copy but I cry out I can't remember did you make any notes at all while you reviewed the report again
02:01:55 all while you reviewed the report again can't remember
02:01:59 Ms Cooney told us when she gave evidence to the inquiry that you were quite fastidious about notebooks that's what she said and for those who are
02:02:11 she said and for those who are interested in seeing the transcript it's day 14 page 88 at lines 8 to 9 I don't need to show you that did you make a note of your review in your notebook I
02:02:22 note of your review in your notebook I may well have done but I don't know I would have to look in the notebook but I don't have access to it did you make did you remember whether you made a note of
02:02:33 you remember whether you made a note of view of you on any hard paper document or of any kind and I don't remember because I don't remember whether I reviewed that as a hard copy or an electronic copy and I can't remember but
02:02:47 electronic copy and I can't remember but I possibly would have noted it down in my notebook what had done as I tended to do that out of habit so I knew what I've done over the week no just looking a
02:02:59 done over the week no just looking a little bit more closely if you would with me with your statement at paragraph 3.14 that we've got there on the screen you you say that the and the reason you
02:03:11 you you say that the and the reason you give for not being surprised that you had no comments on her draft is that she had capabilities and background in
02:03:24 had capabilities and background in building control which would have meant that she was very experienced in working with fire safety strategies now you you don't say there that the reason you had
02:03:35 don't say there that the reason you had no comments was because you were satisfied with the contents of the report itself do my question is do we take it from what you do say and what
02:03:46 take it from what you do say and what you don't say there that you signed it off as fine purely because it had been authored by Miss Cooney as opposed to having conducted a critical review of
02:03:58 having conducted a critical review of its contents no I had reviewed its contents and on the basis that I appreciate that there were gaps in the document where further
02:04:10 gaps in the document where further information was required and I understood that that would be fed back from the clients or the design team once
02:04:21 from the clients or the design team once the draft had been submitted and they'd had a chance to read it and I was orbit when you say I'm not surprised I had no comments is that that you had
02:04:34 I had no comments is that that you had you are not surprised when you came to write your witness statement in September 2008 and 18 that you had no comments or that you were not surprised at the time I would say I wasn't
02:04:48 at the time I would say I wasn't surprised at the time and is that lack of surprise at the time because as you say in your statement of her experience of dealing with Building Control and
02:05:00 of dealing with Building Control and working with writing fire strategies when you did your review as you said you did
02:05:09 did how much reliance did you place on ms Cooney's capabilities and her background and experience as opposed to a cold I'd review of the report itself
02:05:30 I don't know really
02:05:36 I would have said it was a review of what was written did you go through herb draft with a critical eye to check each
02:05:51 draft with a critical eye to check each line yes I read each line yeah did you go through it with a critical eye or did you or did you relied to some extent
02:06:02 you or did you relied to some extent greater or lesser on the fact that she was experienced and capable I would say both really and I went through it with a
02:06:14 both really and I went through it with a critical eye and also appreciated that Kate was competent looking back on it
02:06:25 Kate was competent looking back on it now and in the light of dr. Lane's criticisms of the work the report do you still think that it's fine there are areas that it could have been approved
02:06:38 areas that it could have been approved improved on and that would have never been sent out as a formal issue of a report well we'll come to look at it in in due course just as a general question
02:06:52 in due course just as a general question can you explain why you find it off as fine given that there are areas that could have been improved on there were areas that we needed more informational
02:07:04 areas that we needed more informational can we look at the x over spreadsheet for fees please that is at e^x 0 4 zeros 1 3 5 3 I'd like to show the native
02:07:16 1 3 5 3 I'd like to show the native version of that if I can mister operator so can we look at that at EXO zero zero zero zero 1 3 5 3 native
02:07:55 right now if you can go to timesheets will be shown timesheets and then have the space
02:08:08 shown timesheets and then have the space bar on the bottom right of the document moved to the left so we can see the left-hand side we can see together that we've got a job phase with dates or
02:08:23 we've got a job phase with dates or numbers I should say down the left-hand side all four Grenfell Tower and we've just I think again if you go to line 49
02:08:41 we can see that there are between is lines 49 and 50 4 or perhaps more
02:08:53 lines 49 and 50 4 or perhaps more pertinently 15 at 49 and 52 we can see where kate Cooney has marked hours and
02:09:04 where kate Cooney has marked hours and we can see that she has put in hours on the on the the 9th the 10th the 13th and the 15th and six hours on the 15th for her you see that and then there are two
02:09:17 her you see that and then there are two more times for the fire strategy for existing condition in September 7th and 11th we don't see any entry for you or
02:09:28 11th we don't see any entry for you or your work there in those time sheets is that correct yes I believe so see on the document and is it right that
02:09:39 see on the document and is it right that no hours were assigned to you in the billing system for your review of MS Cooney's Draft yes why is that
02:09:52 Cooney's Draft yes why is that I probably put the time down for that day on my timesheet to a different job or to some other something on something else
02:10:01 else if you had done a thorough review of you remember now some two hours is there any reason why you wouldn't have billed it to this file
02:10:18 and
02:10:25 we probably didn't want to exceed the fee because my time would have gone over the fee does that tell us and tell me if
02:10:39 the fee does that tell us and tell me if this is wrong that the time you spent on reviewing it was limited by the amount of available feel EFT in the quote as opposed to what a root proper review in
02:10:51 opposed to what a root proper review in compliance with peer review procedures that exhibit demanded no no so given that what was billed on this for the fee
02:11:03 that what was billed on this for the fee as at that point which was still under the total fee proposal disappeared from the screen temporarily I wouldn't mind having it back please well let's let's
02:11:19 having it back please well let's let's proceed without the document if we can and if you need to look at it again we can given that what was billed on this for the fee at the time which was still under the title fee
02:11:30 why didn't you bill the hours that you spent reviewing this report - the fee I don't know why didn't you go back to
02:11:44 don't know why didn't you go back to Bruce owns or - TMO and say you needed more by way of a fee in order to do a proper job
02:11:55 I don't think that I didn't do a proper job just because I didn't put time down to it time down to a different project is the reality that you didn't post any
02:12:08 is the reality that you didn't post any times at all for this review because your review was so brief that honesty for badet know now we know you were busy
02:12:23 for badet know now we know you were busy you and she were both going on holiday on the 17th as of the evening of the 16th of August and you weren't in the office on the 16th I've been being quite blunt about it dr. Barker are you quite sure that you didn't just sign off this
02:12:36 sure that you didn't just sign off this report without reading it properly yes I'm quite sure and is the reason why you didn't bill any time to a review of Miss Cooney's draft is because you hadn't really spent any honestly billable time
02:12:47 really spent any honestly billable time doing so no I disagree with Dunn okay your comment in your email I have reviewed it and it is fine was it usual in your experience at that time to give so little feedback after a peer review
02:13:00 so little feedback after a peer review of such a report
02:13:07 no I usually gave more feedback than that however I can't remember whether I works on a hard copy of the document or an electronic copy you would normally
02:13:20 an electronic copy you would normally give feedback sorry you would normally give more feedback than that as what you've said can you explain why this feedback deviated from the norm no I
02:13:36 feedback deviated from the norm no I can't remember can I just go back with you please to mr. Pearson dr. Pearson's witness statement EXO 4
02:13:48 dr. Pearson's witness statement EXO 4 zeros 1 7 5 3 page 3
02:13:58 EXO four zeros one seven five three at page three and we've read this before this is paragraph paragraph three point
02:14:18 this is paragraph paragraph three point nine mr. chairman I think we now have that mm-hmm we looked at that before doctor dr. Barker did you run through each of the
02:14:33 Barker did you run through each of the checks that dr. Pearson says xover normally does when peer reviewing a report when you reviewed miss Cooney's draft a believer did
02:14:55 did you have any discussion or communication of any kind with Kate Cooney in the 24 hours between receiving her draft report and you're telling her the next day that it was fine
02:15:07 the next day that it was fine I don't remember if you don't remember that and you don't I think have a
02:15:20 that and you don't I think have a document to show that you went through each of the checks dr. Pearson describes in his statement there what is the basis of your belief that you did go through
02:15:31 of your belief that you did go through miss Cooney's Draft making sure that it complied with each of the five elements of a proper peer-review process because
02:15:44 of a proper peer-review process because I did I did read it I went through it yes but it wouldn't necessarily have complied because it was an existing building that it hadn't been designed to
02:15:55 building that it hadn't been designed to approve document be we were using document B as a benchmark and showing what was provided in the building but the fact that it was a fire safety
02:16:07 the fact that it was a fire safety strategy report for an existing building wouldn't would it mean that the system of peer review of that report described by dr. Pearson there would be different
02:16:18 by dr. Pearson there would be different or wouldn't apply it would be slightly different and that there weren't any from memory any fire engineering
02:16:29 from memory any fire engineering analyses in terms of calculations in there in Kate's report all right but making allowances for the fact that this is an existing building are you agreeing
02:16:42 is an existing building are you agreeing with what I'm suggesting to you which is that making allowances for that's that difference nonetheless a process of peer reviewing this report would would have to comply with these these elements
02:16:55 to comply with these these elements yes
02:17:01 I'm going to ask you just one or two questions about about version control at the time to August 2016 was x over a certified under iso 9001 i don't believe
02:17:15 certified under iso 9001 i don't believe they were they were working towards it I see did I exhale have a document procedure which was in line or working
02:17:26 procedure which was in line or working towards is a 9001 in what way I don't understand well did X aver have a document procedure they document control
02:17:38 procedure they document control procedure as at the summer of 2012 yes I believe they did yes can we look at EXO for zeros 1 2 2 4 please this is the
02:17:51 for zeros 1 2 2 4 please this is the project completion procedure internal 2x over issued on the 1st of April 2010 and reviewed on the 1st of April 2012 you
02:18:03 reviewed on the 1st of April 2012 you see that yes governing standards iso 9001 2008 are you familiar with this document no
02:18:15 document no you're not familiar with it this is now the first time you've ever seen it I may have seen it but I don't remember it
02:18:27 right can you explain how it would be that a senior fire engineer such as yourself within xover responsible for producing reports or peer reviewing
02:18:40 producing reports or peer reviewing reports of those done under your instructions not be familiar with a project completion procedure no like I
02:18:51 project completion procedure no like I say I may have seen the document but I can't remember
02:18:59 under project wasn't complete well we'll come to that I'm just asking you to see if you can explain your lack of familiarity with this this document
02:19:10 familiarity with this this document leaving aside the document were you aware in general terms of the fact that there was a document out there in xover which had something to do with project
02:19:21 which had something to do with project completion
02:19:28 and yes I think I was aware well let's see if you were aware of the principles can we go to page one and look at section four closure of the project for
02:19:41 section four closure of the project for many projects it says the exact point at which the consultancy work has been completed is not always immediately evident the project manager should make careful note of the scope of services provided in the contract documentation
02:19:54 provided in the contract documentation this would initially be the fee proposal which was provided and the details confirmed on the fee acceptance form you see that and then it says appendix a shows the flowchart but to ensure that a
02:20:07 shows the flowchart but to ensure that a high standard is maintained the project manager is required to turf and then there's a list of bullet points the first of which is this F dr. Baca check that all elements of the project to have
02:20:18 that all elements of the project to have been completed satisfactorily this will entail a review of the scope of services set out in the feit proposal and a specific review of the documents stored on the electronic filing system to
02:20:30 on the electronic filing system to determine that scope that the scope of services have been completed you see that yes and then goes on to say or so
02:20:41 that yes and then goes on to say or so this is an alternative contact the client or clients representative to ensure that they are satisfied that the scope of service is matched with their expectations any comments from the client should be stored on the electronic filing system in the
02:20:52 electronic filing system in the correspondence folder now when you conducted your review of Miss Cooney's draft report did you have this internal guidance in your mind
02:21:06 No can you explain why that is because the report that was sent out was a draft
02:21:19 the report that was sent out was a draft and it was understood that elements needed to be discussed and clarified with the design team so that then a formal version of the final report could
02:21:32 formal version of the final report could be issued I see so at that point the project wasn't complete when you peer reviewed I see
02:21:43 complete when you peer reviewed I see okay but what was the point of peer reviewing a Pei draft that was incomplete then and because the report outlined the basic principles of b12b 5
02:21:57 outlined the basic principles of b12b 5 however there were a number of clarifications and recommendations that Kate made that needed to be checked so it was understood that that would happen
02:22:11 it was understood that that would happen at a later date given that fairly regular design team meetings were being held for the project for the refurbishment as well when you did your
02:22:23 refurbishment as well when you did your peer review even though you say it was only a draft at that stage did you undertake a review of the scope of services set out in the fever posle yes
02:22:38 services set out in the fever posle yes yes I looked at the scope
02:22:45 at any point during your involvement in this this I call it project but the production of the existing fire safety strategy did you ever check that all the
02:22:56 strategy did you ever check that all the elements of the project had been completed satisfactorily
02:23:04 yes a check but I knew that they hadn't all been completed satisfactorily
02:23:13 did there ever come a point in your involvement where you were satisfied that they'd been completed no I see the
02:23:28 that they'd been completed no I see the version of the existing fire safety strategy that you reviewed was marked as a draft wasn't it we don't need to look at it it's okay I mean if you want to we can and we will certainly be looking at it
02:23:38 it did you ask or had you asked mr. Cooney specifically to produce a draft yes that was quite common practice both projects
02:23:50 was quite common practice both projects we would produce a draft issue it and then any comments that came back from the design team we would incorporate and update to an issue right now if you look
02:24:03 update to an issue right now if you look please at exo five zeros five seven seven
02:24:13 this is an email from the second one down from Kate Cooney to Jean what copied to you dr. Barker and it follows
02:24:30 copied to you dr. Barker and it follows on from a a string below it so just after you had gone back to her and told her it was fine well she then sends it to Jean what for formatting and there's
02:24:42 to Jean what for formatting and there's a bit of discussion about that and then in the eat the second email down on that page page one Kate Cooney says to miss what Jean it is a draft at this stage anyway but yes
02:24:55 a draft at this stage anyway but yes tomorrow morning is fine can you explain what stage in the process miss Cooney is referring to when she says it's a draft at this stage I think she's meaning more
02:25:11 at this stage I think she's meaning more that at this point in time it's a draft it's not a formal stage in the production process no what do you remember whether this document was intended to be sent to studio E as a
02:25:22 intended to be sent to studio E as a draft for its review yes it was meant to be sent to the design team I believe it was sent to Bruce at Studio 8 and when
02:25:35 was sent to Bruce at Studio 8 and when did you think it would cease to be a draft and become a final document and I don't know I assumed after seeing an
02:25:49 don't know I assumed after seeing an email that or an email exchange between Terry and Bruce that it would be discussed at the next design team meeting and who would decide that it was a final report and from my point of view
02:26:05 a final report and from my point of view because when Terry came back we had a discussion under project essentially was handed back to London it would be Terry I see and would would
02:26:19 it would be Terry I see and would would there be a peer review done at that stage yes say there'd be a final is this right it's final period and who was
02:26:30 right it's final period and who was going to conduct that final peer review do you remember I don't know well you'd in the discussion as to what would happen to this draft no at that stage Katie only told us that it to
02:26:44 stage Katie only told us that it to prepare this kind of strategy to completion it would take a number of weeks
02:26:48 weeks she said solidly for a good number of weeks if it was to meet all the requirements do you agree with that yes and she also said that this was the this
02:27:01 and she also said that this was the this draft was the start of the process do you agree with that yes given that this was only a first draft at the start of a
02:27:12 was only a first draft at the start of a much lengthier process or or certainly lengthier it's not much lengthier can you explain why 2111 alt pounds out of
02:27:23 you explain why 2111 alt pounds out of the to hunt 2865 pounds lump sum fixed fee for this was invoiced for this draft some 73% of the fee no can't explain
02:27:37 some 73% of the fee no can't explain that the unusual and no it was quite usual to invoice on a project for the time that you'd spent on it I understand
02:27:48 time that you'd spent on it I understand that it might be usual to invoice for the for the time you spent would it be unusual to have eaten up so much of the fixed fee 73% in producing what was only
02:27:59 fixed fee 73% in producing what was only a first draft
02:28:04 and no it was it was usual that did happen right so would it be fair to say that the norm is that some three quarters of of the fee would be used in
02:28:17 quarters of of the fee would be used in producing the first draft and it's peer review and it's difficult to say because it's up its it can vary so much from
02:28:28 it's up its it can vary so much from projects project I see and for this particular draft existing fire safety strategy what work would be needed we
02:28:40 strategy what work would be needed we touched on this before a little bit what exactly would be needed by where further work on X overs part to be carried out to make it a final report to go to the client for its file
02:28:51 client for its file I think the recommendations that Kate had listed needed to be looked at those
02:29:04 had listed needed to be looked at those were the main the main points and as part of your client care process would you have followed up with the client to ensure that a final version was sent to the client I probably wouldn't have done
02:29:18 the client I probably wouldn't have done once the projects had been handed back to London I see
02:29:25 okay well let's move on then in time well perhaps I should ask you this question before we do did you ever yourself consider checking that a final version was sent to the client
02:29:38 version was sent to the client no I didn't was it unusual for a draft never to be finalized and I would say fairly unusual and however projects do
02:29:54 fairly unusual and however projects do vary in length and quite often there can be a pause in between certain stages of the project let's look at se a six
02:30:08 the project let's look at se a six zeroes 48 please
02:30:16 this is an email sent by Bruce stones to Terry Ashton on the 30th of August 2012 copied to you and indeed Paul Duncan at
02:30:28 copied to you and indeed Paul Duncan at the TM oh you see that yes and he says Terry we have a meeting planned for the afternoon of the 6th which is the date Cape returns bounced back below etc and
02:30:41 Cape returns bounced back below etc and then in the second paragraph she says we need to he says we need to go through the fire strategy existing draft receives 16th of August which has
02:30:52 receives 16th of August which has numerous recommendations some of which may be unrealistic for an interim strategy it is probably also a good time to make contact with the local fire officer to discuss the project now you
02:31:05 officer to discuss the project now you received this document by way of copy do you know if mr. Ashton or you or indeed anybody else at xover went through the
02:31:16 anybody else at xover went through the draft existing fire safety treasured strategy at that point as mr. Sains said needed to be done I don't know whether
02:31:28 needed to be done I don't know whether they did or whether that email from Bruce his intention is to go through it at the meeting did you react to this email in any way by going back to mr. sands and asking him what needed to be
02:31:41 sands and asking him what needed to be done or gone through all I didn't speak to Bruce I do remember having a telephone conversation with Terry and to tell him what we've done on the project
02:31:52 tell him what we've done on the project and then I forwarded him the existing fire strategy draft yes let's look at that document exo four zeros one six zero seven please
02:32:08 and you can see the second email down on that first page of that string there the email we've looked at just a minute ago and then above it you we see the email
02:32:22 and then above it you we see the email from Terry Ashton to you on Monday the 3rd of September Claire can you please ring me regarding this just first of all I think we discussed earlier mr. Ashton
02:32:35 I think we discussed earlier mr. Ashton coming back from illness when did he first start becoming involved in the existing fire safety strategy do you
02:32:46 existing fire safety strategy do you remember I don't remember was he well involved by this point late August early September 2000 I think so he'd returned
02:32:59 September 2000 I think so he'd returned to work on the 6th of August so that's just under a month of being back where I think he'd been working on the refurbishment side just scrolling back
02:33:13 refurbishment side just scrolling back in time than a little bit given that he'd come back from work from illness sorry to work from illness on the 6th of August did you have any discussions or contact with him between his or his coming back to work on that date and the
02:33:27 coming back to work on that date and the production of the draft existing fire safety strategy on the 16th of August I don't think I did right do you remember
02:33:40 don't think I did right do you remember any discussions with him between the 16th of August and the 3rd of September on that subject bearing in mind of course that you've gone on holiday on the 17th
02:33:51 the 17th no I didn't right all right let's look at this email then he says please regard please ring me regarding this did you did you call him having received that email yes a telephone Terry what was
02:34:03 email yes a telephone Terry what was discussed do you remember
02:34:06 well as I've just said I told him about the project and told him about the existing by a strategy draft that had been produced and sent to the design team and then I forwarded him on the
02:34:20 team and then I forwarded him on the strategy I can't remember what else was discussed
02:34:25 can we look please at EXO five zeros four one three this is an email later
02:34:37 four one three this is an email later the same day third of September from you to Terry Ashton and there's an attachment draft zero one Grenn felt our
02:34:49 attachment draft zero one Grenn felt our existing FSS using existing drawings dot doc and you say here it is cheers Clare did he ask you to send that document to
02:35:02 did he ask you to send that document to him yes do you know or do you remember why he wanted to see it well I'm assuming that he wanted to read it and
02:35:14 assuming that he wanted to read it and digest it before he went to the meeting was mr. Ashton at this point to your understanding taking responsibility for this part of the project I believe he
02:35:27 this part of the project I believe he was because he asked me in an email if I was a project manager on it and I told him no it was now going to be a London
02:35:38 him no it was now going to be a London project you told you it was now going to be a London project what else did you tell him about who was going to take responsibility for the draft existing fire safety strategy from that point
02:35:49 fire safety strategy from that point onwards
02:35:52 onwards I don't remember discussing that specifically with him was there any discussion to the effect that it was he
02:36:03 discussion to the effect that it was he who was going henceforth to take forward the to completion the existing fire safety strategy there may have been during our telephone conversation but I
02:36:15 during our telephone conversation but I can't remember do you know who was responsible from that date for ensuring
02:36:26 responsible from that date for ensuring that the existing fire safety strategy was completed and not simply left as a draft no I don't know can we go please
02:36:37 draft no I don't know can we go please to your witness statement EXO four zeros one six zero three at page four and look at paragraph three
02:36:49 page four and look at paragraph three point one six you say there I had no more involvement with the existing FS are all with the Grenfell tower refurbishment except for an email
02:37:00 refurbishment except for an email received on the third of September 2012 from mr. ass Ashton which will come to look at in a minute did you ever inquire with him or with
02:37:14 did you ever inquire with him or with anybody else as to whether the draft from his Kuni that you had signed offers fine on the 16th of Sept of August had been finalized no
02:37:28 and if we look while we're on the same page in your statement at paragraph 3.17 you say in the last sentence I am not
02:37:41 you say in the last sentence I am not aware of any changes being made the existing FS are following that conversation or any further versions being requested I think that conversation is the one that you referred to in the previous paragraph
02:37:55 referred to in the previous paragraph yes
02:37:56 yes third of September now we know that mr. Ashton produced at his initial design note on the 12th of September 2012 using
02:38:09 note on the 12th of September 2012 using the draft existing fire safety strategy to your understanding and recollection dr. Barker does it does that tell us that mr. Ashton produced that document
02:38:21 that mr. Ashton produced that document simply using the draft as it stood I don't you don't know can I ask you to
02:38:32 don't you don't know can I ask you to look please at a RT five zeros four zero four
02:38:44 this is a design I'm sorry it's a project meeting held on Thursday the 6th of September 2012 at 2 o'clock in the
02:38:56 of September 2012 at 2 o'clock in the afternoon at Apple Yards now you're not present there mr. Ashton from xover is along with mr. stones and others from Studio E and others from the TMAO do you
02:39:08 Studio E and others from the TMAO do you see that yes if you go please to page 2 under fire it says this xover need to
02:39:19 under fire it says this xover need to understand the existing situation and whether lfb do test the system twice a year and what was behind the proposed upgrade works to the smoked exhaust stroke fire the statutory position on
02:39:30 stroke fire the statutory position on the design needs to be established as it's not possible for Building Control to insist on enhancements draft fire strategy needs detailed interrogation and a meeting was arranged with SE studio in early next week to review did
02:39:45 studio in early next week to review did mr. Ashton discuss with you the need for detailed interrogation of the draft no did mr. Ashton come back to you after
02:39:57 did mr. Ashton come back to you after this meeting do you remember in order to take forward the process of a detailed interrogation no I see
02:40:13 was there in your mind a moment when you were clear that your involvement in the production of the existing fire safety strategy had stopped yes
02:40:27 strategy had stopped yes I would consider it to be when I had the telephone conversation with Terry and I believe there is an email where he'd asked if we were running the project and
02:40:40 asked if we were running the project and I did state that no the project needed to continue from the London office say
02:40:52 to continue from the London office say in your mind and do you remember ever having any kind of handover from yourself to mr. Ashton
02:41:04 yourself to mr. Ashton about the existing fire safety strategy other than the telephone conversation between myself and Terry no and that's
02:41:16 between myself and Terry no and that's that conversation was the one we discussed earlier sent in the existing strategy after that conversations so are we to take it from that that you never
02:41:27 we to take it from that that you never handed over the report to him took him through it showed him where the gaps were and what further information was needed and then said to Terry Ashton over to you yeah I'd like now to sorry
02:41:45 over to you yeah I'd like now to sorry before I do that one more want a few more questions and who was responsible for invoicing the first draft because we know if an invoice went for the first draft you know why that was
02:41:59 it was usually the admin team that set up the invoicing for the month so based on what's on the timesheets would be
02:42:12 on what's on the timesheets would be invoiced it wasn't done by each individual fire engineer I see did you have any direct contact with the villain
02:42:24 have any direct contact with the villain Department to tell them to send out an invoice when the first draft was completed no do you know why x over invoiced for it when according to Kate
02:42:36 invoiced for it when according to Kate Cooney so much more was left to do no don't know why right now I'd like to turn to a different topic which is to look at the existing fire safety
02:42:47 look at the existing fire safety strategy itself and as a reminder to you dr. Barker you said you've reviewed it and you'd said know more about it other than it was fine it's at CST zero zero
02:43:00 than it was fine it's at CST zero zero zero zero three one one four you can just look at that and there it is water marked draft so it's quite clear that
02:43:13 marked draft so it's quite clear that it's a draft and it was a report to Kensington or Chelsea TMO in although it was I think sent to studio E in your mind were you clear that both you and
02:43:24 mind were you clear that both you and miss Cooney knew that your client was the TM oh I don't remember okay if we look I've got a dot around I'm
02:43:38 if we look I've got a dot around I'm afraid between this document and the fee proposal can we just look back at the fee proposal TMO one zero zero three
02:43:50 fee proposal TMO one zero zero three seven seven two one we looked at this earlier on I just want to remind you of what it says
02:44:05 and under on page 2 if we can go there please under proposed scope of work we looked at this before it says that the design of the building will be assessed
02:44:16 design of the building will be assessed against the relevant design codes and then they're referred to you see that my question is when when you look at the existing fire safety strategy the draft
02:44:27 existing fire safety strategy the draft we don't find any assessment of or in fact any mention of the requirements of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 or section 20 of the london building ax amendment act 1939 do you
02:44:41 building ax amendment act 1939 do you know why that is because the building was being assessed under the relevant design code so it's being assessed to
02:44:52 design code so it's being assessed to the guidance in approved document b yeah the proposed spoke of escape of work though actually says the relevant design codes relating to the statutory
02:45:03 codes relating to the statutory requirements on the design of the building under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 and the london building acts you correct me if i'm wrong dr. Barker but approved document b
02:45:15 wrong dr. Barker but approved document b is not a document which is produced or generated under the authority of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 is it no to get given that the design
02:45:31 is it no to get given that the design the relevant design codes relate to the statutory requirements on the design of the building under those two statutes the rro and the london building acts as
02:45:42 the rro and the london building acts as amended why were those not referred to in the draft as opposed to a DB
02:45:53 the rule the requirements that they are our role is that the responsible person should carry out a suitable and sufficient risk assessment and then the
02:46:04 sufficient risk assessment and then the section 20 requirements apply and there are requirements to do with firefighting access that apply however the design of
02:46:23 access that apply however the design of the building was assessed under the relevant design codes so you assess a building under on using a design code and then once the building is assessed that then informs the person carrying
02:46:37 that then informs the person carrying out the risk assessment so that they can fulfill their requirements under the IRR role and the risk assessment in the residential buildings covers the common areas doesn't cover the flux themselves
02:46:51 areas doesn't cover the flux themselves yeah I can understand dr. Parker that approved document b would be relevant what i'm trying to get to the bottom of is is why there is no assessment of or even any mention of the requirements of
02:47:03 even any mention of the requirements of the rro or the london building acts in the report
02:47:17 I don't know can you help me with this dr. Barker what are the relevant design codes under the well the relevant design
02:47:29 codes under the well the relevant design code will be a piece of guidance that you used to show that your building meets the functional requirements or the building design so the the the codes will be the design calls for example
02:47:42 will be the design calls for example approved document b or if you were designing a hospital HTM the health technical brandon but you just told this to minutes or abruptly that they're not issued under the RR oh no the there's
02:47:59 issued under the RR oh no the there's there's two sides to it really you've got the the design of the building has to meet the functional requirements of the building regulations and you can use approved document b to assess that as
02:48:12 approved document b to assess that as one of your design calls and then under the our our role that is putting in place measures to ensure that what fire
02:48:23 place measures to ensure that what fire safety measures you have got in your building maintained so you need the fire strategy first so that you know what those measures are and then the person
02:48:35 those measures are and then the person who's carrying out the risk assessment can assess the building and see that those measures are in place thank you I'm sorry to interrupt you mr. mr. chairman that's that's helpful so
02:48:47 mr. chairman that's that's helpful so coming back to my my question for the last time on this although the proposed scope of work specifically identified that the the design of the building would be assessed
02:48:59 design of the building would be assessed against the design relevant design codes relating to the statutory requirements on the design of the building under the RR AO and the LBA my question is why was
02:49:11 RR AO and the LBA my question is why was there no assessment or even a mention of those requirements in the report I don't know okay what work would you
02:49:26 I don't know okay what work would you have expected to be carried out to assess the design of the building against the relevant design codes relating to the statutory requirements on design of the building under the rro
02:49:38 on design of the building under the rro it would have been an assessment of the existing building layouts with a view to advising on or a shirt ensuring that
02:49:50 advising on or a shirt ensuring that those building layouts complied with the our our own set made it as a statement that's a question it was it was a way of
02:50:02 that's a question it was it was a way of looking at the building and to see do the travel distances meet with the current requirements and all the safety
02:50:13 current requirements and all the safety provisions because the building was going to be refurbished so I think it was a benchmark to see where is the
02:50:26 was a benchmark to see where is the building now in terms of compliance because they're following the building work it was important to ensure that if the building didn't comply it was made
02:50:39 the building didn't comply it was made nor worse following the building work now can I take you to a part of the report the existing fire safety strategy
02:50:51 report the existing fire safety strategy partly by way of correction of a question but partly to take the point forward a little bit if you look please at t mo 1001 9 to 5
02:51:11 this is paragraph sort of page eight just wait for it to come up we do in fact see a reference to the rro in there if we go to page eight paragraph three
02:51:24 if we go to page eight paragraph three point two five under common areas do you see at the bottom I think I may have put to you that there's no reference at all to the RRA in fact there is that's one and it's under common areas and you see
02:51:38 and it's under common areas and you see there that you're talking about inaudible fire alarm not required two common areas of residential buildings etc and then you could see what's said
02:51:50 etc and then you could see what's said there and then control of this which is corridors and stairways is a duty of the management under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 so it looks from
02:52:04 fire safety order 2005 so it looks from that that Ms Cooney had in mind the need to examine or report on the duty of
02:52:16 to examine or report on the duty of management under the regulatory reform order so far as common areas are concerned but the RRL isn't mentioned anywhere else in the report my question
02:52:29 anywhere else in the report my question is did you when you did your review note that but for that one reference the rro had not been referred to anywhere notwithstanding the reference in the
02:52:40 notwithstanding the reference in the scope of services in the fee proposal
02:52:45 No
02:52:50 did it concern you at the time that there was no mention apart from in that one instance of the RR a no because the
02:53:02 one instance of the RR a no because the report was more concerned with the building design and compliance with the functional requirements of the building regulations in order to inform and you
02:53:14 regulations in order to inform and you know because it said it in the fee proposal that part of it was in order to inform the management plan yes yes are you aware of where you were what the
02:53:25 you aware of where you were what the time aware of the duties imposed on the responsible person by the RR a yes
02:53:39 and we're youwere we're at the time that or let me put it this way did you think at the time that it would be important for your client the TMO to understand fully whether the building allowed it to
02:53:53 fully whether the building allowed it to comply with the requirements on it as the responsible person under the RR oh I'm sorry can you every first a question
02:54:04 I'm sorry can you every first a question please yes or no tried a different way did you think it was important for your client the TMO to understand whether it was compliant or not compliant with its obligations under the RRR at the time
02:54:24 I don't know
02:54:32 you don't know you say you don't know or you die remember were you familiar at
02:54:43 you die remember were you familiar at the time with article 13 of the rro which relates to the obligation on the responsible person to ensure that the premises are equipped with appropriate firefighting equipment fire detectors
02:54:56 firefighting equipment fire detectors and alarms yes did you notice when you did your review of Miss Cooney's work that there was no analysis of the extent
02:55:09 that there was no analysis of the extent to which the existing building complied with that article I do think that the strategy does refer to means of warning within the building did you have it in
02:55:20 within the building did you have it in your mind that that was something that you should be looking out for yes
02:55:28 mr. chairman I'm afraid I'm in the middle of all of this and I know at the time that it's probably convenient moment yes because if you continue to take you well we're on a series of
02:55:41 take you well we're on a series of things I should just tell you talked about to say you know where we are and also the panel that we are now going to examine a number of aspects of of this report which will take up the bulk of the rest of your examination and there's
02:55:54 the rest of your examination and there's no easy way of calling a halt to that but we're going to check turn to a different part of the same document
02:56:00 again helps if you can mr. millet we can afford to take an hour for lunch can we can yes well dr. Barker we're going to break now so we don't get some lunch we'll come back at two o'clock please
02:56:12 we'll come back at two o'clock please and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence well you are alright thank you very much
02:56:32 good I'm course to finish today yes thank you very much