Evidence from Terry Ashton of Exova, the fire safety engineering consultant for the Grenfell refurbishment. Ashton discusses Exova's role, fire strategy requirements, and his experience with overcladding projects.
00:00:16 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing in a moment we're going to hear further evidence from one of the witnesses from xover but before we do that we're going to hear some
00:00:28 that we're going to hear some submissions from mr. Leslie Thomas Queen's Counsel who appears for a number of the court participants yes mr. Thomas good morning yes before
00:00:48 yes mr. Thomas good morning yes before you start can I just say although we're pleased to see you two here you this morning we had didn't have a lot of time available no solicitors indicated that you wouldn't need more than 20 minutes
00:01:00 you wouldn't need more than 20 minutes so that's what we've budgeted for yes sir
00:01:05 sir I might take 22 minutes but I try to take 18 instead of 22 I will see where we go but I understand what you said
00:01:15 well if one really wishes to know how our justice system is administered in the country one doesn't question the policemen the lawyers the judges or the
00:01:26 policemen the lawyers the judges or the protected members of the middle classes one goes to the unprotected those precisely who needs the Lord's protection the most and listens to their testimony ask any black man any poor
00:01:38 testimony ask any black man any poor person ask to Richard how they fare in the halls of justice and then you all know whether or not the country is just but whether or not it has love for
00:01:50 but whether or not it has love for justice or any concept of it that's James Baldwin let me turn about turn to the timing of these missions you may be wondering why these submissions are being made now the
00:02:02 these submissions are being made now the ground fault our inquiries investigating the fire which caused the death of 72 individuals and the dismantling of a community you rightly confirmed that article 2 is engaged article 14 prohibits discrimination in
00:02:15 article 14 prohibits discrimination in the ambit of any of the rights protected by the European Convention of Human Rights and as we've set out in our written submissions which is worth repeating article two's procedural duty
00:02:26 repeating article two's procedural duty read together with article 14 requires this inquiry to investigate discrimination including race discrimination and whether this was a contributing factor to the Grenville fire and the lives lost the Grenville
00:02:40 fire and the lives lost the Grenville fire did not happen in a vacuum and we must be cognizant of the prevailing socio-economic and political realities of the time this was not simply a local tragedy Philip West London it had and
00:02:54 tragedy Philip West London it had and has national and global ramifications those who are affected come from culturally racially ethnically religiously in an economically diverse group this disaster happened within a
00:03:08 group this disaster happened within a pocket of one of the smallest yet richest boroughs in London London being the richest city in Europe or one of the richest cities in Europe and one of the richest cities in the world and yet the
00:03:21 richest cities in the world and yet the community affected was predominately working-class that is the stark reality that cannot be ignored the impact of race and poverty on this disaster this
00:03:33 race and poverty on this disaster this inquiry must not ignore we make these submissions not as an adjunct to this inquiry or as a soft or tangential issue they are central to the investigative
00:03:44 they are central to the investigative duty that is to be discharged in the course of this inquiry and are founded upon sound legal principles and established law you may be thinking mr.
00:03:55 established law you may be thinking mr. Thomas were aware of all of this were waive our obligation why are you reminding us of this what has changed well our discussions about race and a recognition for the need of a
00:04:08 race and a recognition for the need of a cultural shift around race and discrimination firstly kovat 19 which has brought about unprecedented changes to the world claimed the lives of over half a million people worldwide and
00:04:23 half a million people worldwide and 44,000 lives in this country to date it certainly would not be lost on the panel that disproportionate number of those who died in the UK have been people of color
00:04:35 died in the UK have been people of color secondly the death of George Floyd in the United States now the familiar image footage of George Floyd being asphyxiated to death his last breath being squeezed from his body a white
00:04:47 being squeezed from his body a white police officer kneeling on his neck as he begged for his life calling for his dead mother and uttering the words I can't breathe until he could no longer speak the global outpouring the protis
00:05:00 speak the global outpouring the protis gives a voice to the collective pain and anger his murder particularly resonance with the black community in the UK as there was a disproportionate number of black people who were stopped searched by the police and who died in lost
00:05:12 by the police and who died in lost custody George Floyd's death has also read knighted conversations about class poverty inequality and race discrimination in this country the
00:05:23 discrimination in this country the advent of the mobile phone and the role in news allows us to see in real time events that as they unfold and nothing can be hidden just as with George Floyd's death so too
00:05:35 just as with George Floyd's death so too with Grenville we collectively were the viewers and the quasi eyewitnesses to those horrific deaths it's been 21 day 21 years since the publication of the
00:05:46 21 years since the publication of the McPherson report into the death of Stephen Lawrence which concluded that the Metropolitan Police were institutionally racists Stokke carmichael and Charles Hamilton first
00:05:57 carmichael and Charles Hamilton first row of institutional racism in 1967 in their book black power the politics of liberation quote when a black family moves into a home in a white neighborhood and is
00:06:09 home in a white neighborhood and is stoned burned or ratted out they are the victims of an overt act of individual racism which most people walk condemned but it is the institutional racism that
00:06:23 but it is the institutional racism that keeps black people locked in dilapidated slum tenements subject to the daily prey of exploitative slum landlords merchants loan sharks and discriminatory real
00:06:36 loan sharks and discriminatory real estate
00:06:37 estate the society either pretends it does not know of this latter situation or is in fact incapable of doing anything meaningful about it institutional or systemic racism shows
00:06:49 institutional or systemic racism shows in the disproportionate number numbers of people who are impacted by unequal treatment in our opening submissions literally years ago now we drew your
00:07:00 literally years ago now we drew your attention to the report by dr. Maria Stewart again I would commend that report to the inquiry team it is a concise but very trenchant piece of work it explains in very clear terms what
00:07:14 it explains in very clear terms what issues of diversity are so important in the context of a disaster dr. Stewart makes parallels with other inquiry such as the Lawrence inquiry and how awareness of diversity and inclusion was
00:07:25 awareness of diversity and inclusion was fundamental to enhancing public confidence community engagement and ultimately added value the grandpa towering choir will do well to learn from this and how investigating issues
00:07:37 from this and how investigating issues of race and poverty can garner the confidence of the local community encourage their engagement and feeling of inclusion in the procedures in order to improve the investigation by learning the lessons on the importance of social
00:07:50 the lessons on the importance of social cultural diversity and poverty so what does pay vat19 have in common with brenth or race and poverty a disproportionate number of people of
00:08:01 disproportionate number of people of color have died during the precoded pandemic and a majority of the Granville residents who died were people of color and we know that we know that the
00:08:12 and we know that we know that the statistics are glaring and provide a stark and continuous reminder but Grenville is inextricably linked with race it is the elephant in the room
00:08:24 race it is the elephant in the room poverty despite living in one of the most developed nations in the West poverty is never far from the political agenda coded 19 highlighted the fault lines in the UK society and how as ever
00:08:37 lines in the UK society and how as ever the poor bear the brunt of the hardships Grenville too exposes those fault lines the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea is homes too
00:08:48 Chelsea is homes too such exclusive addresses such as Knightsbridge South Kensington Chelsea harbour Belgravia does anyone seriously believe for one moment for its but such
00:09:01 believe for one moment for its but such a disaster would have happened to a block of flats in those areas how resources are spent and allocated how residents are treated and consulted how seriously their legitimate concerns are
00:09:13 seriously their legitimate concerns are dealt with are all impacted by who they are who those residents are social housing in this country which once provided homes for substantial
00:09:25 provided homes for substantial proportion of the population has in recent decades become a residual I service for the very poor this disaster happened in a city where there was one
00:09:37 happened in a city where there was one housing system for the rich and another housing system for the poor that political social and economic context cannot be ignored brushed aside in investigating it nor can it be decoupled
00:09:51 investigating it nor can it be decoupled from race in the context where people of color are disproportionately likely to be poor and live in social housing and disability we're also looking at
00:10:03 disability we're also looking at community with a large proportion of whom were disabled many of whom were placed in the high floors you touched upon this yesterday it must be morally repugnant that so many of the most
00:10:15 repugnant that so many of the most vulnerable individuals in our society found themselves discriminated against in this room were placed in directly in danger the ethnic breakdown of those who
00:10:26 danger the ethnic breakdown of those who died by wave reminder the ethnic breakdown is listed in our written submissions we know that for people who lost their lives were visiting the tower on the night the remaining 67 of the
00:10:38 on the night the remaining 67 of the group were grateful residents 32 were from the Middle East or North Africa 9 were from East Africa 7 were white British or white Irish heritage 5 were
00:10:50 British or white Irish heritage 5 were from West Africa 5 were from Bangladesh all of Bangladeshi heritage 3 were from the Caribbean one was from the Phillips beans and one was Colombian and there was one of unknown Bain heritage
00:11:03 was one of unknown Bain heritage it's also worth highlighting the statistics and these can be found at paragraphs 8 & 9 of our written submissions to put the figures and the disparity into context in 2017 the Royal
00:11:17 disparity into context in 2017 the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea had a population of one hundred fifty-three thousand sixty three point four percent of the residents were white and yet of the 67th Grenville deceased 57
00:11:32 the 67th Grenville deceased 57 eighty-five percent were people of color in the English housing survey in 2017 2018 it was found that forty percent of
00:11:43 2018 it was found that forty percent of those live in high-rise buildings in the socially rented sector or black Asian or other this compared to a percent of the population which was 14 percent its high
00:11:55 population which was 14 percent its high but danger to those living in high-rise buildings is significantly higher especially to those living on the higher floors
00:12:02 floors most of those who died in Granville Tower were on the higher floors the comparison is stopped the Associated risk clear George Floyd what else do the
00:12:16 risk clear George Floyd what else do the circumstances of his death have in common with grenfell well George Floyd's last words were I can't breathe these were chilling reminder of the
00:12:27 were chilling reminder of the experiences survivors and sadly were some of the last words of those who died in this tragedy a 999 call at 0 to 15
00:12:38 in this tragedy a 999 call at 0 to 15 and 7 seconds from someone on the 12th floor reported seeing fireballs and said we can't breathe Jessica the banners reported that Raymond Moses Bernard
00:12:50 reported that Raymond Moses Bernard couldn't talk to the operator because he was struggling to breathe and as she herself became progressively unresponsive her final words were I
00:13:01 unresponsive her final words were I can't breathe I can't breathe no meal some of the survivors and briefs have highlighted the similary tee's of the last words of a black man who died at the hands of the state - the
00:13:13 who died at the hands of the state - the last words of their friends and loved ones most of them were from ethnic minority backgrounds the words we can't breathe projected on the grand fault our for the eyes of the world to see on the
00:13:26 for the eyes of the world to see on the eve of the resumption of the inquiry says it all YouTube may have recognized a parallel themes race and state obligation are at heart of all three cases Grenville Co
00:13:40 heart of all three cases Grenville Co vid and George Floyd some will argue that the Grateful Enquirer has adopted a dilatory approach to its investigation of the issues of race and equality which is in keeping with a tendency to shy away and gloss
00:13:51 with a tendency to shy away and gloss over complaints of racism or systemic inequality these are uncomfortable subjects in this regard I place this
00:14:02 subjects in this regard I place this charge to this inquiry you sir and your panel this is your time this is your time of action to break the cycle of disengagement with the issue of race and
00:14:13 disengagement with the issue of race and inequality what are the questions you undoubtedly will ask yourself what will our legacy be what will this enquiry be remembered for you will undoubtedly want
00:14:27 remembered for you will undoubtedly want it to be on the right side of history let me turn to the panel it's been three years three weeks two days since the fire June the 14th of June 2017 and over
00:14:39 fire June the 14th of June 2017 and over two years since the Prime Minister's decision on the 10th of May 2018 to appoint an additional two panel members to sit with you in recognition of the scale and breadth of the issues to be considered by the inquiry the resumption
00:14:51 considered by the inquiry the resumption of hearings yesterday without a full panel constituted by people of diverse ethnic backgrounds and experience with only one of the two Assessors missing risks we say breaching the article to
00:15:03 risks we say breaching the article to procedural obligation and the public sector equality Duty for the reasons we have set out in our written submissions these matters are further compounded by the ongoing failure to instruct an
00:15:14 the ongoing failure to instruct an expert to report on the history of social housing the role of tenant voices intended partisan patient as well as an understanding of how inequality discrimination occurred it is now an immediate and pressing
00:15:26 it is now an immediate and pressing importance myths and roles for the inquiry to continue without them undermines it and the work the good work that you are seeking to do sir article 14 novel to briefly we are
00:15:39 article 14 novel to briefly we are conscious of the fact that the inquiry is heard from very few witnesses in module one because of the intervening application for the Attorney General undertaking that's not the inquiries fault that's just what happened we're also cognizant of the fact that we
00:15:52 we're also cognizant of the fact that we are now in a coded 19 situation and that's Noctis of our course we would expect that the inquiries approach the question of witnesses given evidence in module 1 and subsequent module 2 to be
00:16:05 module 1 and subsequent module 2 to be undertaken with sufficient scrutiny of the discharge of the article to in article 14 duties and the public sector equality Duty we note for example that Bruce sooners is due to return on 13th
00:16:16 Bruce sooners is due to return on 13th of July and expect that he will be asked relevant questions by the inquiry or rule 10 applications will be made by the families would expect that Xavier ride and Osborne and berry building controlling the Casey TMO witnesses as
00:16:29 controlling the Casey TMO witnesses as well as the experts will need to be questioned on issues related to consultation discrimination and disability the Xavier witnesses Terry Ashton and Tony person will need to be questions on matters relating to the
00:16:40 questions on matters relating to the needs of the residents including mobility age and disability living in Greenville town the needs of the residents likely to live in high-rise buildings in preparation for the fire safety strategy with particular regard
00:16:52 safety strategy with particular regard to the approved document M concerning access to and use of the building consultation with the residents and the use of the information obtained from consultation Bruce sinners will need to
00:17:03 consultation Bruce sinners will need to be questioned about residents consultations and how these impacted on design and the residents needs considered in the design I have faith in
00:17:14 considered in the design I have faith in you that despite the fact that this rule panel is white and justice is colorblind let's turn to the reality and the optics which do not appear to be colorblind
00:17:26 which do not appear to be colorblind we can't be colorblind in looking at the makeup of the Greenville residence the fire wasn't color blind the majority of the people who died were people of color the majority of the people who died were
00:17:39 the majority of the people who died were working-class many were disabled there is as you are aware at the very least public suspicion that race and discrimination were factors that played
00:17:53 discrimination were factors that played a part in making Greenville tower unsafe and endanger the lives of the residents and ultimately led to their deaths these are uncomfortable realities that cannot be ignored and so if the only way
00:18:04 cannot be ignored and so if the only way to lay those suspicions the issue of race poverty discrimination need to be investigated then they should be investigated to discharge the art or to and the public sector equality duty
00:18:17 and the public sector equality duty equally the second permanent member from from a diverse ethnic background with relevant expertise must be appointed and so must an Assessor it with expertise in
00:18:28 so must an Assessor it with expertise in social housing with an understanding of inequality and discrimination and the role of tenant voices and participation finally finally sir I'm conscious that
00:18:40 finally finally sir I'm conscious that I'm able to address this panel in real time none of my clients are able to do so neither through physical attendants or through an online platform which allows for real-time dynamic engagement
00:18:51 allows for real-time dynamic engagement our repeated requests for such an interactive panel just for the advocates on behalf of their clients who allow us to participate and all time has been refused our request for a platform such
00:19:02 refused our request for a platform such as zoom can't reuse another inquiry or Skype for business can be used in the criminal courts or any other platform using some of the other courts has also been dismissed sir our clients
00:19:15 been dismissed sir our clients perception is that the inquiries depth to their concerns and their lawyers have been silent or at worst a sideline 2-bit to the status of YouTube Watchers that
00:19:26 to the status of YouTube Watchers that their voices have been locked out of the process reduced to emailing questions or requests for interventions to a solicitor's box they do not and cannot feel in the circumstances that
00:19:38 feel in the circumstances that they are at the heart of the process during a period of reduced physical attendance at the inquiry I will anticipate that an interactive platform which is controlled by your team in a
00:19:51 which is controlled by your team in a dignified manner is unachievable or difficult my final plea to you is to request on the family's behalf that such a provision is put in place additionally
00:20:04 a provision is put in place additionally as you're aware some of the families for them effective engagement means being allowed to physically attend the hearings to see what this is given evidencing person my final words a
00:20:15 evidencing person my final words a marginalization of families and advocates from real-time engagement renders this process ineffective that should not be the Grenville legacy
00:20:26 should not be the Grenville legacy remember sir ineffective participation reduces access to justice reduced access to justice leads to a lack of justice
00:20:38 to justice leads to a lack of justice and a lack of justice it's just another way of saying this is unjust well thank you very much mr. Thomas I just helped you with one thing before you go I
00:20:51 you with one thing before you go I understand what you're saying about the panel and the need for an Assessor and is there anything the talk particularly asking me or the panel as a whole to do
00:21:07 asking me or the panel as a whole to do sir yes we understand and we've written to the prime minister unless has gone to the prime minister who this inquiry has
00:21:22 the prime minister who this inquiry has had a period of time when we haven't been sitting due to K vid we still have no information as to when that panel member
00:21:31 member all those missin and persons are going to be engaged you are now moving into a period where you are asking questions
00:21:44 period where you are asking questions which are highly relevant to these issues happened yesterday it happened yesterday with with on the on the issue of disability we asked you
00:21:56 on the issue of disability we asked you to use your voice your influence your power and to encourage and you know all the influence you can on the prime minister to make sure that these
00:22:08 minister to make sure that these appointments come as quickly as possible that's what we ask you to do we know that you're cognizant of it and that's I can assist you further that's very
00:22:20 can assist you further that's very helpful thank you very much indeed and so if you'd like to leave us now engage ride we're going to rise for a couple of minutes so we can do some housekeeping but thank you thank you very much
00:22:45 we'll go right so five minutes just nice keeping purposes and presumed help us Jen
00:29:24 yes miss Grange sorry later than we'd hoped but not a problem at all and so we're now going to hear evidence from another ex / witness who is mr. Terrance Ashton yes thank you
00:29:51 I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much with draszt and do
00:30:03 thank you very much with draszt and do sit down and make yourself comfortable I'm sorry we've kept you waiting longer than we'd hoped we had another matter we had to deal with but now we are okay yes thank you
00:30:15 with but now we are okay yes thank you yes thank you mr. Ashton for attending today to get to give your evidence it is very much appreciated and if you have any difficulty understanding anything that I'm asking you in the course of my
00:30:27 that I'm asking you in the course of my questions please just ask me to repeat the point or put the question in a different way okay and if you feel you need a break at any point please let us know
00:30:39 know also please try and keep your voice up there are microphones that try and keep your voice up so the transcriber lady there can hear your your voice okay so
00:30:50 there can hear your your voice okay so you have made to witness statements to the inquiry I just want to take you to those they're going to appear on the screen and there's a hard copy and a file in front of you so the first is dated the 27th of September 2018 if we
00:31:03 dated the 27th of September 2018 if we can bring that up that's EXO four zeroes one six two one and then if we go within that statement to page 20 is that your
00:31:16 that statement to page 20 is that your signature there it is and have you read that statement recently I have and can you confirm that the contents are true they are true yes and then you've made a
00:31:29 they are true yes and then you've made a second more recent statement dated the 27th of April 2020 if we can bring that up that's at EXO four zeroes one seven seven five
00:31:43 and if we can go to page six of that statement again is that your signature there it is thank you and have you read that statement recently I have indeed
00:31:54 that statement recently I have indeed and can you confirm that the contents are true they are correct yes right thank you so I want to start mr. Ashton with some questions about your background and your experience and if we
00:32:07 background and your experience and if we can look at paragraph two point two of your first witness statement so we'll bring that up on the screen that comes up at and EXO four zeros yeah 161 thank you so just starting with the
00:32:23 161 thank you so just starting with the the first sentence there you say I began my career in 1963 as a trainee building surveyor at London County Council do you see that there yes indeed and did you
00:32:37 see that there yes indeed and did you then work as a building surveyor at the London County Council after your time as a trainee no we were placed in various sections of the architects department and the three of which I worked in were
00:32:50 and the three of which I worked in were all to do with fire safety I see and then when I came off the training scheme which isn't isn't in the statement I then worked as a technical assistant for
00:33:03 then worked as a technical assistant for the London County Council indeed yes yes I think and then we can see in the next sentence you say I then worked as a Technical Assistant for the Greater
00:33:15 Technical Assistant for the Greater London council until its demise in 1985 throat you see that there yeah yeah and again can you explain to us briefly what your job as a technical assistant
00:33:27 your job as a technical assistant involved at the Greater London Council it was dealing with fire safety in buildings if I can put it as succinctly as there that's what it was all about I see fire fire safety in buildings within
00:33:39 see fire fire safety in buildings within the Greater London Council yes in danger and then you move to the corporation of London we see that in the third sentence you say I went on to become an assistant
00:33:51 you say I went on to become an assistant district surveyor in of London with a focus on fire safety where I stayed until 1989 do you see that there I do and again can you just
00:34:02 that there I do and again can you just describe to us in brief terms what your role is an assistant district surveyor with a focus on fire safety would have involved well in the district servers offices there were two separate
00:34:14 offices there were two separate disciplines one was structural engineering of structural safety and the other was fire safety and I was in charge of fire safety in the City of London district severe service and
00:34:29 London district severe service and broadly it was setting standards for other people in the office also dealing with applications myself I understand thank you and is it right that you were
00:34:43 thank you and is it right that you were on the working party for the London district surveyors Association fire safety guide number one that was fire safety and section 20 buildings is that correct I I set it up I was the chairman
00:34:56 correct I I set it up I was the chairman yes thank you and then we can see at the end of that paragraph that in 1989 you
00:35:07 end of that paragraph that in 1989 you were offered a role as principal consultant at the time what was called Warrington fire and it's now called it's over is that correct it was called x over is now Warrington fire okay another
00:35:19 over is now Warrington fire okay another story but yes indeed yes actually correct and you you started there as a principal consultant and then you rose
00:35:31 principal consultant and then you rose to the position of associate it takes over is that correct that's correct so just to summarize you had 25 years in building control with an emphasis on
00:35:42 building control with an emphasis on fire safety before you joined X / correct and is it right that at the time you became involved in the ground floor project you had been in put attics over
00:35:54 project you had been in put attics over for approximately 23 years yes that's true now can you just help us briefly about the hierarchy of positions attics / and so you were you rose to be
00:36:07 attics / and so you were you rose to be an associate who would be directly senior to you a director a director associates generally managed the individual offices I see yep
00:36:19 managed the individual offices I see yep and who would be senior to the director anybody the the person who owned the company yeah time yeah and then beneath
00:36:30 company yeah time yeah and then beneath you who would sit beneath you what were the layers well depending on who we had in the post at the time but there was principal consultant senior consultant
00:36:42 principal consultant senior consultant consultant and graduate engineer and you've done those in descending order for is that correct indeed yeah thank you and can you explain what your role
00:36:56 you and can you explain what your role as an associate at xover typically involved well it was it was running the office and making sure that everybody who worked under me was allocated the
00:37:07 who worked under me was allocated the right amount of work but also getting involved in actual projects myself where I was client facing and looking back to
00:37:19 I was client facing and looking back to the time say when you first started work on the Graham field project which we'll come to in a moment in 2012 what proportion of your work would have been managing the office versus doing projects yourself
00:37:30 projects yourself I would guess about 20% management but that management would include reviewing an advising staff on the technical side
00:37:41 an advising staff on the technical side yep and which xover office did you work at at the time you were involved in the Graham full project we were in a building in London Bridge yeah so you at
00:37:55 building in London Bridge yeah so you at the London office oh yes indeed yes now have you yourself undertaken any formal training or education relating to fire engineering no I haven't but is it right
00:38:10 engineering no I haven't but is it right that you were an associate in the fire engineering department of X / that's correct yes yeah
00:38:18 using your beth guess approximately what proportion of staff in that department had formal training or education in fire engineering at the time you worked on the ground floor project 90% so most
00:38:34 the ground floor project 90% so most people did have some kind of formal fire engineering qualification or they were working towards getting one yes yes yeah and at the time of the ground foot
00:38:45 and at the time of the ground foot project were you a member of any professional bodies or institutions only the Society of Professional Engineers but that's not specifically related to
00:38:56 but that's not specifically related to fire safety I see yeah thank you so I want to now move on just to look a bit more x overs experience and reputation
00:39:07 more x overs experience and reputation and would you agree that at the time of the Grenville project x over was considered to be a top tier fire safety engineering consultancy firm yes I would
00:39:20 engineering consultancy firm yes I would can we just look at what said about the firm in the first fee proposal for the ground floor project that was dated the 9th of May if we can go to that and bring it up on the screen that's at a RT
00:39:31 bring it up on the screen that's at a RT six zeroes 26 thank you now we're going to come back in a little while to look
00:39:42 to come back in a little while to look at the detail of this fee proposal later but for now I just want to look at the first page under company profiles you see that there I do and I suspect this
00:39:53 see that there I do and I suspect this is standard text is that right that gets inserted into this is a standard fee proposal template that's correct and so if we look at that first sentence do you
00:40:06 if we look at that first sentence do you agree that at this time x over had established it says there an extensive worldwide reputation for excellence in fire safety do you see that I do and in
00:40:18 fire safety do you see that I do and in the third paragraph it states there that one of X overs primary goals was to provide an extremely high standard of service to our clients do you see that there I do thank you
00:40:32 and is it right that xover regularly one fire engineering awards for its work at that time yes yeah when you say at that
00:40:44 that time yes yeah when you say at that time in your mind is there a time when that wouldn't have been the case well we won awards when there were awards to win
00:40:55 won awards when there were awards to win if that sounds funny I mean that the idea of giving awards for fire engineering was relatively recent yeah and we competed with other fire consultancies and we presented the case
00:41:08 consultancies and we presented the case for our us getting the award and in some cases we won but you can see from the we didn't win it every year know lots of other consultants who did just as well yeah and these are some examples of the
00:41:22 yeah and these are some examples of the awards that x over 1/4 its fire engineering services that are listed here is that correct or in two years thank you now can we turn to page four of this document and we see there's a
00:41:36 of this document and we see there's a heading fire engineering team right at the top do you see that yes indeed if we can just that's great to see him into that thank you so in that very first
00:41:48 that thank you so in that very first paragraph is it right that at this time x over employed over 50 experienced and qualified engineers worldwide that was
00:41:59 qualified engineers worldwide that was true yes yeah and where it talks about experienced and qualified engineers would that be qualified in fire engineering it would yes indeed and in
00:42:13 engineering it would yes indeed and in that last paragraph of that first sentence it says there in addition through X over Warrington fire group we have access to international experts in
00:42:24 have access to international experts in the behavior of materials fire testing and reaction to fire do you see that there I do and did you yourself have access to those international experts in those matters at the time you were
00:42:37 those matters at the time you were working on the ground floor project we did yes
00:42:40 did yes I mean our main business was fire testing and research consultancy division was up just a part of that company so am I in burden butter was
00:42:52 company so am I in burden butter was fire testing yep and when you were working on the ground floor project was it your primary goal to provide an extremely high standard of service yes
00:43:03 extremely high standard of service yes yep and given its reputation would you agree that it was reasonable to rely on x over to produce comprehensive fire safety strategies for projects yes I
00:43:17 safety strategies for projects yes I would expect that and that it was reasonable to assume that by engaging X over the project team had access to highly competent experts for all aspects of fire safety design and compliance yes
00:43:32 of fire safety design and compliance yes now at the time that you were working on the grandfa project did it's over as an organization have experience of over cladding works in high-rise buildings I
00:43:43 cladding works in high-rise buildings I can't speak for the company as a whole but I personally hadn't had experience of any over cladding projects okay that
00:43:54 of any over cladding projects okay that was my next question so whether you personally had experience of advising and respective cladding works in high-rise buildings prior to this project no that's correct I didn't have
00:44:06 project no that's correct I didn't have and it must follow therefore that you also hadn't had experience of being involved in the over trading of a residential high-rise building that would be true as well now can we just
00:44:19 would be true as well now can we just look at a copy of your CV so we have that if we can bring up an m-80 three zeros six five six five nine
00:44:34 this was yeah and then we go to page seven within this document thank you so this was one of the documents exhibited to mr. vetches police statement to the
00:44:47 to mr. vetches police statement to the Metropolitan Police and he exhibited the Seavey's of a number of people xover including yourself
00:44:56 if this a CV that you're familiar with this format yes indeed yeah now we see there your the summary of your employment history which we've gone
00:45:08 employment history which we've gone through and if we can go over to page 8 we can see a list of recent projects that you involved with and I think would
00:45:21 that you involved with and I think would it be fair just looking down that list to say that there's there's a lot of projects there that appear to involve hospitals office buildings and
00:45:32 hospitals office buildings and universities or colleges would you agree with that yes a fair number yep would that have reflected your particular areas of expertise for example hospitals
00:45:44 areas of expertise for example hospitals not necessarily I mean the there's only a list there of recent projects I mean we have worked on high-rise residential buildings shopping centers as you can
00:46:00 buildings shopping centers as you can see from that list there yeah public buildings the Royal Institution it seems to be hospital heavy if I can use that because those are the most recent
00:46:11 because those are the most recent projects that we'd put on the sea bearing in mind the CV is updated regularly I understand and I think it must follow therefore from the answers you've already given is that what we
00:46:22 you've already given is that what we don't see there are any over cladding projects or residential high-rise projects no that's correct and I think you tell us in your statement that you retired in March 2016 is that correct
00:46:35 retired in March 2016 is that correct it's correct you also said there paragraph 2.1 of your statement we don't need to bring it up I don't think that you continued to work for it's over part-time
00:46:45 part-time in the same role for one day a week after your retirement is that correct it's correct yes after a short break enough and does that remain the position
00:46:57 enough and does that remain the position do you still do any part-time work for exomes I still do on an atom win basis yep
00:47:04 yep so you're still involved in the industry I am indeed yes now just moving to another topic I want to look a little bit more about what is fire engineering
00:47:16 bit more about what is fire engineering and what is a fire strategy we will come to explore in detail in a moment the services which xover were engaged to perform on the ground floor project and
00:47:27 perform on the ground floor project and it's right isn't it that they were described as fire safety engineering services is that right that's how we how we sell ourselves that's what we do fire safety engineering yep and and in your
00:47:41 safety engineering yep and and in your own words what do you understand fire safety engineering to involve well fire safety engineering is the use of engineering techniques to demonstrate compliance with statutory requirements
00:47:56 compliance with statutory requirements and it's an alternative to following what we call standard guidance so where you have a particular building form where it doesn't fit into the cat you
00:48:09 where it doesn't fit into the cat you know into the descriptions given in the statutory guidance document it might be large or it might be very high then we would use for engineering to justify it
00:48:21 would use for engineering to justify it I think our engineering goes into things in first principles rather than just following a prescriptive set of rules so
00:48:33 following a prescriptive set of rules so take for example approved document b the statutory guidance made pursuant to the building regulations yes and would you still say that someone could provide fire safety engineering services by
00:48:44 fire safety engineering services by advising on what the requirements of approved document b were in a particular project well I think probably you could argue that the umbrella
00:48:55 argue that the umbrella for what we do is fire consultancy but we happen to work for a fire engineering division but if you look at the totality of the work that we do quite a large
00:49:08 of the work that we do quite a large proportion of the fire strategies that we produce use prescriptive guidance rather than fire engineering it's and it's much more the case than those
00:49:21 it's much more the case than those buildings where you need to use for engineering such as airport terminals large spaces and that sort of thing so with specific reference for example to
00:49:33 with specific reference for example to approved document b which we're going to come back to a number of places and would you put that in the category of prescriptive guidance yes indeed you would yeah even though a proof document
00:49:46 would yeah even though a proof document B itself makes clear that it has a lot of performance-based standards within it it does cross refer to performance-based standards yes so for example fire performance standards are often
00:49:57 performance standards are often specified throughout the document they are indeed yeah let's just look then at the definition of fire safety engineering there's a British standard
00:50:09 engineering there's a British standard that has a definition of this this is BS double for double to 2005 and we find that at BSI five zeros six to four and
00:50:22 that at BSI five zeros six to four and I'd like to sorry let's just bring that up first so this is a british standard called fire vocabulary and if we go to page 38 within it a paragraph three
00:50:36 page 38 within it a paragraph three point three seven seven so that's just beyond the halfway mark on the page if we can play that up yeah do you see that three point one three seven seven so there it says fire safety engineering is
00:50:49 there it says fire safety engineering is the application of scientific and engineering principles to the protection of people property and the environment from fire do you see that I do do you agree with that definition I do and
00:51:01 agree with that definition I do and would that encapsulate the type of services that you were providing on for
00:51:15 right well that's the way out
00:51:45 let me let me repeat the last question would that encapsulate the type of services that you were providing on for example a project like Granville up to a point
00:51:56 point building regulations are not concerned with property protection fire engineering would embrace that as well so if you look at the objectives of the
00:52:08 so if you look at the objectives of the building regulations there are the health and safety of people in and around buildings but including people who have to go there in the event of a fire like the fire service so property
00:52:19 fire like the fire service so property protection is not part of that function yes although you will obviously get some benefits for property protection from
00:52:31 benefits for property protection from the other measures you put in to protect people yes can we look at another definition as well just while we're discussing this topic so if we can go to iearn q3 zeroes 1 1 2 6 1 and this is a
00:52:50 iearn q3 zeroes 1 1 2 6 1 and this is a publication by the institution of fire engineers and what we see there at the top of that first page under the red heading what is fire engineering they
00:53:01 heading what is fire engineering they say fire engineering is the application of scientific and engineering principles rules codes an expert judgment based on an understanding of the phenomena and
00:53:13 an understanding of the phenomena and effects of fire and of reaction and behavior of people to fire to protect people property and the environment from the destructive effects of fire do you see that I do we've got a slightly
00:53:24 see that I do we've got a slightly longer definition there again do you agree with that I do yes and with that encapsulate in both broad terms that the type of work services that you were
00:53:35 type of work services that you were providing on the ground floor project yes it would yep and would you agree with this that a fire safety engineer sets the agenda regarding life safety
00:53:49 sets the agenda regarding life safety requirements for a project broadly speaking yes he would yes he or she would
00:53:57 she would that's why we're employed we are employed to provide guidance on fire safety which is a specialist no you know specialism yeah now you state paragraph
00:54:10 specialism yeah now you state paragraph three point one of your witness statement that x overs work on gramm for principally involved the field of a fire strategy and providing a fryer strategy and I just want to explore with you at the outset precisely what a fire
00:54:22 the outset precisely what a fire strategy is in this context and could you explain for us in your own words what a fire strategy is the first strategy is a statement of the measures
00:54:34 strategy is a statement of the measures that are being proposed to satisfy statutory requirements in the building in brief yep and again let's just look
00:54:47 in brief yep and again let's just look at a british standard publication this is british standard published document pd seven nine seven four zero two thousand two and we find this at BSI four zeros one seven one six and this is
00:55:04 four zeros one seven one six and this is a british standard published document titled the application of fire safety engineering principles to the design of buildings do you see that I do is that a publication you're aware of I'm aware of
00:55:16 publication you're aware of I'm aware of it yeah and if we go within it to page seven at part three point one six at the top this provides a definition of a fire
00:55:27 top this provides a definition of a fire safety strategy do you see that I do and it says there it's a combination of fire safety measures that has been shown by reference to prescriptive codes or a
00:55:38 reference to prescriptive codes or a fire engineering study to be capable of satisfying the specified fire safety objectives do you see that there I don't yes and that I think that incorporates the two types of fire engineering that
00:55:50 the two types of fire engineering that we were referring to earlier you've got the possible prescriptive code route and then a fire engineered solution is that correct it does yes and I'm in some cases you might use a combination of both yes yes thank you
00:56:03 combination of both yes yes thank you and then on page 44 within this same document at part nine point seven again towards the top of that page if we could blow that up it returns again to the
00:56:16 blow that up it returns again to the topic of a fire safety strategy and it says the fire safety strategy for the building will be based on the successful trial design and is likely to comprise a range of physical fire safety measures
00:56:28 range of physical fire safety measures and management procedures a description of these measures should be provided together with the performance specifications and any recommended deviations from the relevant system
00:56:39 deviations from the relevant system codes and then it gives an example there do you see that I do yes again would you agree with that broad definition of a fire safety strategy the fire safety
00:56:52 fire safety strategy the fire safety strategy would not always include details of management procedures unless those management procedures were critical through life safety yes so for
00:57:05 critical through life safety yes so for example if those management procedures were relevant to the active and passive fire safety systems within the building is it possible that you would then deal with those in a fire strategy absolutely
00:57:17 with those in a fire strategy absolutely yes and can we look as well there while we've got this up so in that second sentence it says a description of these measures should be provided together with the performance specifications do
00:57:29 with the performance specifications do you see that I do and again would you agree that a fire strategy frequently involves including performance specifications as well as a description of the measures yes it does yeah
00:57:45 now I want to turn to another piece of guidance if we can go to inq three zeros 1 1 2 1 9 now this is the fire industry
00:57:58 1 1 2 1 9 now this is the fire industry association guidance note which we can see from the title at the bottom of that page in red it addresses the scope of works for the fire engineer do you see
00:58:09 works for the fire engineer do you see that I do yes now in fairness to you this was a document that was produced in May 2015 right so it didn't come out until towards the end of your involvement in the ground floor project
00:58:21 involvement in the ground floor project but I just want to explore with you some aspects of this document the extent to which it's consistent with industry practice and first of all are you familiar with this document no I'm not
00:58:34 familiar with this document no I'm not so have you ever read it before no I
00:58:41 just want to look at a number of aspects of it even though you haven't read it just to see whether or not you would agree with some of what it says here if we go within it to page 3 we see at the
00:58:57 we go within it to page 3 we see at the top paragraph 1 it says this document is intended to be distributed and used within the construction industry in order to assist with specifying the standard scope of works that would be
00:59:08 standard scope of works that would be expected from a fire engineer do you see that I do and it's important to make clear I think while we're discussing this document that paragraph 4 I know
00:59:19 this document that paragraph 4 I know they're not numbered but if you look down to paragraph 4 the paragraph beginning this scope of works to see that it says there this scope of works is primarily intended for new build construction projects although it could
00:59:31 construction projects although it could be used as the basis for a scope of works on other projects such as refurbishments do you see that yes I do but just to be clear that this is not something you've come across either in the context of new builds or
00:59:43 the context of new builds or refurbishments not this particular document I mean it's perfectly legitimate to use a code of practice for new buildings and apply it to buildings
00:59:54 new buildings and apply it to buildings that are being refurbished yes you obviously wouldn't in a fighh all of them measures in there but you could apply the appropriate ones yes thank you
01:00:06 now if we can look at page four go over to page four and if we can look at the very first paragraph there and if I read
01:00:19 very first paragraph there and if I read it slowly to you so it says there the fire engineers overall role will be to provide advice in relation to the fire safety aspects of the design in order to provide reasonable confidence that the
01:00:31 provide reasonable confidence that the design that is developed as well as the completed building should achieve an acceptable standard of fire safety comply with the clients objectives and meet all relevant legal fire safety
01:00:44 meet all relevant legal fire safety requirements so there would you agree that that would be the overall role of a a fire safety engineer yes oh that's a good definition and then if we can look
01:00:58 good definition and then if we can look at the there's some bullets in the middle of that page and it starts there thank you that's going to the top of the page so it says the primary aspects of responsibility for the fire engineer are
01:01:11 responsibility for the fire engineer are as follows and then a number of bullets are set out can I just I just want to work through a couple of these bullet points with you okay and so the first
01:01:23 points with you okay and so the first one says to identify the fire safety design objectives for the project such as but not limited to you identification of any relevant statutory controls
01:01:35 of any relevant statutory controls confirmation of any client fire safety requirements confirmation of any insurance requirements so would you agree that that would be a primary
01:01:46 agree that that would be a primary aspect of responsibility for the fire engineer it would but not necessarily it wouldn't necessarily satisfy all of those criteria it may simply be that
01:01:58 those criteria it may simply be that we're dealing with what is necessary to meet statutory requirements rather than clients requirements or insurance requirements yes so it would depend on whether there were
01:02:10 so it would depend on whether there were such client requirements indeed I understand yeah yeah and then the second bullet is work with the design team to develop the design to meet the fire
01:02:22 develop the design to meet the fire safety objectives surprise safety design objectives do you see that I do and again would you agree that's a primary aspect of responsibility for the fire engineer I would agree yeah and then in
01:02:35 engineer I would agree yeah and then in the third bullet we have document the fire safety design in a fire strategy report do you see that yes and again would you agree that that's a primary aspect of
01:02:46 that's a primary aspect of responsibility absolutely yeah now I know I just want to have a little look at what this document says a fire strategy should include and that's at
01:02:59 strategy should include and that's at the bottom of this page do you see that there's a sentence beginning the fire strategy should cover all relevant fire safety design issues and then in
01:03:10 safety design issues and then in particular and a but another list is there do you see that I do if we can just look at the the list so we've got design location and protection of escape
01:03:21 design location and protection of escape routes identification and specification of all fire safety systems that are required do you see that there yes I do do you agree with those two that that's
01:03:33 do you agree with those two that that's what a fire strategy should cover at least those two yeah and then we see surface spread of flame requirements for surface materials that's the third
01:03:45 surface materials that's the third bullet do you see that initial and again would you agree that that should be covered in a fire strategy yes all of these things are a reflection of what
01:03:56 these things are a reflection of what are in the building regulations themselves exactly so do you agree that these points are broadly correlating with the b12b five functional requirements absolutely yeah
01:04:08 requirements absolutely yeah let's just finish off looking at them so the next one was structural fire resistant requirements and then we have fire compartment ation requirements including fire stopping and cavity
01:04:20 including fire stopping and cavity barriers do you see that yes so again would you agree that that ought to be included in a fire strategy ordinarily yes it should be
01:04:31 ordinarily yes it should be when you say ordinarily in which second what circumstances wouldn't it be well where the scope of the works didn't involve compartment ation yeah the
01:04:43 involve compartment ation yeah the single story building for example you wouldn't yeah had fire compartment ation necessarily yeah you certainly had surface spread of flame requirements in a single story building but not in a you
01:04:55 a single story building but not in a you wouldn't be worried about some compartment ation necessarily yes and then if we look at the six bullet point there we see external fire spread do you
01:05:06 there we see external fire spread do you see that there and again would you agree that that should be included if relevant but in a fire safety stuff yes it should yep now if we can go over the page to
01:05:18 yep now if we can go over the page to page 5 and I want to look at a paragraph that's three from the bottom so the second half of the page do you see there
01:05:29 second half of the page do you see there there's a there's a paragraph beginning in relation to fire compartment ation do you see that I do and if we just read it together so it says in relation to fire commentation including fire stopping and
01:05:42 commentation including fire stopping and cavity barriers the fire engineer should specify the fire compartment ation requirements and ensure that those are detailed in relevant fire complementation drawings not just
01:05:54 complementation drawings not just pausing there would you agree that those are things that the fire engineer should be specifying you should specify what is
01:06:05 be specifying you should specify what is needed he wouldn't miss he or she would please except he for he or she other well yeah it's a bit tedious
01:06:15 he wouldn't necessarily expect to produce the fire compartment ation drawings himself frequently he would advise the architect on how to do that
01:06:26 advise the architect on how to do that but would you expect the fire engineer to specify the fire complication requirements oh yes and that would include fire stopping and cavity
01:06:38 include fire stopping and cavity barriers where appropriate yes and then in the second half of this guidance what it does is it gives guidance on what can
01:06:52 it does is it gives guidance on what can be expected from the fire engineer at different stages of the works and it's linked to the RI ba stages of work right again are you familiar with the RI ba stages yeah so can we go to look at the
01:07:07 stages yeah so can we go to look at the start of this at page six so you can see there that it's breaking down the role
01:07:18 there that it's breaking down the role of a fire engineer and what it's to be expected at the different RI ba stages and it's using the more modern RI BA 20 2013 stages but we also see in brackets
01:07:29 2013 stages but we also see in brackets the old references to say stages C or D or E which we're familiar with on the ground floor project you see that indeed I want to pick it up in terms of this
01:07:41 I want to pick it up in terms of this section at page 7 and perhaps before we do do you agree that it is common that
01:07:53 do do you agree that it is common that the work of fire engineers will be linked to the RI ba stages yes it is common and do you also agree that work will often be updated at each stage and
01:08:06 will often be updated at each stage and in line with the design information available at each RI ba stage if that's necessary yes so do you agree that the work of a fire engineer will often develop from the concept design stage
01:08:19 develop from the concept design stage safety through to the develop design stage state D and on to the technical design stage E and then beyond into the construction phase stage JK do you agree
01:08:31 construction phase stage JK do you agree with that that might happen on some projects but generally unless we're very lucky we stopped at the end of our IV a stage D or even E we
01:08:45 the end of our IV a stage D or even E we don't get involved in detail design unless the particular client wants to us to do that so but a large number of the jobs that we work on we would work at
01:08:57 jobs that we work on we would work at stages C D and E and then that would be in do you agree that
01:09:09 in do you agree that preparing a fire strategy and might well require you to revise on whether a particular type of product or system was satisfactory not at every our IV a stage
01:09:25 satisfactory not at every our IV a stage it might be that that comes under detailed design although if the information is available earlier than
01:09:36 information is available earlier than that you would then comment on that on the suitability of a particular form of construction and suitability of a particular product in the construction
01:09:47 particular product in the construction generically yes I mean for example if somebody said we'd like to build this building out of timber we would say well yes you could do that but they would
01:09:58 yes you could do that but they would need to be certain safeguards yep now what I'm actually going to do is when we get to looking in the context of the ground floor project at the different stages we're going to revisit this
01:10:10 stages we're going to revisit this document and look at what it recommends for the rebirth stages and then have a look at whether or not you agree that certain things ought to have been done by different stages just another more
01:10:21 by different stages just another more general question do you agree that the fire strategy is the main source of the required performance criteria for the architects fire drawing information yes I would
01:10:35 fire drawing information yes I would agree with them and would you also agree that the intention is that other members of the design team can rely on those performance criteria when they're doing their own detailed design work
01:10:47 their own detailed design work yes yes and another proposition for you would you agree that a fire safety strategy commonly sets out the
01:10:58 strategy commonly sets out the performance requirements to enable a compliance specification of the active and passive fire safety fire protection measures to be prepared yes I would
01:11:09 measures to be prepared yes I would agree with that and would you agree that a key role of a fire safety engineer when providing a fire strategy is to be responsible for setting out the
01:11:20 responsible for setting out the performance requirements to meet the functional requirements of schedule 1 of the building regulations yes and with that also include highlighting any
01:11:32 that also include highlighting any relevant duties under the regulating reform fire safety order 2005 on which compliance with the building regulations rely well the regulatory reform order
01:11:43 rely well the regulatory reform order deals with the building after it has been built and occupied and it's the only relevance to a fire safety strategy would be that the fire that the fire
01:11:54 would be that the fire that the fire safety strategy which is set out forms part of the RO in other words if you if you have a building where the fire strategy says that this escape route must be kept
01:12:06 that this escape route must be kept clear or you should do this or you should do that or there are certain management aspects that need to be put in place then they will be relevant to the RO yes but not everything the RO is
01:12:21 the RO yes but not everything the RO is is more concerned about a with the building in use rather than a building under construction yes but if for example you have a smoke control system yeah and compliance with the Building Regulations is in part reliant on that
01:12:34 Regulations is in part reliant on that smoke control system would you agree that the fire strategy might address the the performance requirements and the maintenance requirements of that smoke control system oh yes
01:12:47 now just before we leave this topic about what is a fire safety strategy I also want to look at what's stated on the warrington fire current website this
01:12:58 the warrington fire current website this is in 2019 because there's some helpful guidance I think here just to frame this topic and if we go to that at inq three zeros one one two five nine so this is
01:13:15 zeros one one two five nine so this is Warrington fire zone guidance on its website about what a fire safety strategy is do you see that I do are you familiar with this guidance no I'm not
01:13:28 familiar with this guidance no I'm not visited this website and what I want to do is just read
01:13:43 the first two paragraphs of that so it's Warrington fire able to help you create a fire strategy for your building a fire strategy is the way in which fire safety
01:13:55 strategy is the way in which fire safety objectives for a new or altered existing building are defined and achieved for new and altered buildings the fire strategies usually developed during the design phase of the projects our experts work with you to truly understand the
01:14:06 work with you to truly understand the objectives your project and the completed building to create the best solution for you do you see that I do
01:14:14 and if we look at the bottom do you see there it says a good fire strategy should set out a clear framework for the fire safety and is usually based around
01:14:25 fire safety and is usually based around showing compliance with the fundamental objectives of the applicable fire safety legislation business and property protection objectives and insurance requirements do you see that yes I do
01:14:42 sorry and then just going back I want to pick up one more point in the second paragraph under what is a fire strategy it says there according to the British Standards institution document past nine
01:14:53 Standards institution document past nine one one five strategies guidance and framework for their formulation a fire strategy is an all-encompassing document designed to overview how fire can impact
01:15:04 designed to overview how fire can impact on a building and a business again do you agree with that that it's an all-encompassing document providing that overview it depends on what the first
01:15:16 overview it depends on what the first strategy is attempting to do if it's simple as I said I think we covered this ground earlier if it's only dealing with compliance of statutory requirements
01:15:27 compliance of statutory requirements then it would be limited to that and it wouldn't include business interruption insurance requirements and so on now clearly if you're dealing with something like a an airport terminal then business
01:15:41 like a an airport terminal then business interruption or business continuity is critical and therefore you would include that in that particular fire strategy but where to take your point where it's
01:15:53 but where to take your point where it's just dealing with compliance with the statutory requirements yes would you expect it to be an all-encompassing document that overviews how fire can impact on a building and in its entirety
01:16:05 impact on a building and in its entirety we don't normally introduce that sort of concept into our fire strategies we don't say what can happen if a fire occurs in your building image we assume
01:16:18 occurs in your building image we assume that whoever is reading that will know that fire can have an effect on the building and its occupants and on other buildings so it isn't explicitly stated
01:16:30 buildings so it isn't explicitly stated in our fire strategy documentation yep
01:16:38 can we look at another piece of guidance this is also on Warrington fires website and if we look at inq three zeros one one two five eight this is guidance
01:16:54 one two five eight this is guidance which and again in fairness to you this is from the 12th of September 2019 so this is not something you would have had at the time at the Graham field project but it's something that Warrington fire
01:17:05 but it's something that Warrington fire have now and it's headed we can see understanding the importance of a fire strategy the basis for design are you familiar with this document no not now I
01:17:19 familiar with this document no not now I want to look at the sections headed in reality and the answer at the bottom so
01:17:30 reality and the answer at the bottom so in in reality it says particularly following a serious fire with loss of life and severe property damage the view is often taken that fire precautions were introduced in a fairly piecemeal fashion with no common theme or
01:17:41 fashion with no common theme or objective with issues considered only as they occurred resulting in inconsistent changes to fire safety a common area highlighted following investigations
01:17:52 highlighted following investigations into an incident is that the management and fire protection systems installed within a building often confusing and necessarily complex and failed to provide adequate protection in the event
01:18:03 provide adequate protection in the event of a fire would you do you agree with that can I read it again yes I'm sorry it should read it to yourself
01:18:30 I think it's fair to say that buildings historically have been subjected to a series of different statutory
01:18:42 series of different statutory requirements generally introduced following a serious fire you know fire precautions act was brought in by the government following serious fire in
01:18:53 government following serious fire in hotel all pieces of legislation that are enacted to do with fire safety generally following the fire incident even the
01:19:05 following the fire incident even the earliest London building acts were brought in as a result of the Great Fire of London I think where the confusion arises in most people's minds is that
01:19:16 arises in most people's minds is that there are so there are too many applicable controls and a more simple arrangement for dealing with fire safety in buildings might be preferable this is
01:19:28 in buildings might be preferable this is something that happened during when Michael Heseltine was the in charge of the theory he wanted to change the building regulations which he'd received
01:19:41 building regulations which he'd received complaints about their complexity so he organized changes to simplify the guidance which is why we ended up with
01:19:52 guidance which is why we ended up with approved documents rather than written regulations but I do agree that in reality there are a number of conflicting areas to do with fire safety
01:20:03 conflicting areas to do with fire safety which can have tragic consequences poor management is one of is a particularly good example of that or perhaps good is the wrong word yeah okay this document
01:20:16 the wrong word yeah okay this document as we can see from the next heading then provides what it says is you know the answer question mark and if we can just read what it says there it says these issues can often be negated by the
01:20:28 issues can often be negated by the introduction of a plan that considers what the objectives to comply with fire safety legislation are and reach a higher standard than fully considers property protection the environment and
01:20:39 property protection the environment and also protects the developers owners brand the plan should look at all the key factors not just those that are seen as relevant at a time but also follows a methodology and considers the present and future
01:20:50 and considers the present and future needs this plan is the main intention of a fire strategy do you see that I do would you agree with that paragraph or the sentiment in that
01:21:01 paragraph or the sentiment in that paragraph about what a fire strategy is seeking to achieve I think it's important at the introduction of a new development as distinct from one where
01:21:13 development as distinct from one where we just change is being made that all the interested stakeholders have a say so for example if you're building something like a an airport terminal you
01:21:25 something like a an airport terminal you will have a meeting of all interested minds and all the stakeholders so that you have a clear set of objectives as to what is required is it just like safety is it business continuity etc yeah that
01:21:39 is it business continuity etc yeah that doesn't happen in every case as I said earlier property protection is not something which is considered by the building regulations if we read on to
01:21:52 building regulations if we read on to that the second paragraph here it says there a fire strategy should consider all aspects of fire safety and protection in a unified manner and allow
01:22:03 protection in a unified manner and allow flexibility whilst ensuring that the key objectives have been met the strategy should ensure that all key features of the building occupancy and processes have been appropriately and properly
01:22:14 have been appropriately and properly covered do you see that I do again would you agree that the fire strategy should consider all aspects of fire safety and
01:22:25 consider all aspects of fire safety and protection in a unified manner yes it should and that it should cover all key features of the building where they're relevant yes
01:22:37 now I just want to have a look at a different topic now which is your role on the Granville project no this one's
01:22:52 on the Granville project no this one's quite short so maybe we'll do this topic and then break yes so before we come to look at your specific work on the ground floor
01:23:04 specific work on the ground floor project I just want to ask you some more general questions about how you saw your role and what you were seeking to achieve on the ground floor project can we look at paragraph three point four of
01:23:15 we look at paragraph three point four of your witness state in your first statement so that's an EXO for zeroes one six to one at page three and I just
01:23:28 one six to one at page three and I just want to read the first two sentences and the first three lines of this so you say there work on a fire strategy always requires commenting on the regulatory requirements and often involves advising
01:23:41 requirements and often involves advising on the likely attitude of Building Control authorities to particular proposals those are areas where I can use my expertise do you see that there I do now would it be fair to say that you
01:23:55 do now would it be fair to say that you saw your primary role on the project as advising on the likely attitude of Building Control given what you say there in your statement no no our
01:24:06 there in your statement no no our primary objective was to provide compliance with the building regulations yep
01:24:12 yep as part of there we needed to make the design team aware of how a particular building control Authority might view the proposals in other words we think
01:24:26 the proposals in other words we think this strategy is acceptable and we can go forward with confidence to resent it to the relevant statutory authorities I must say this that we would never write
01:24:40 must say this that we would never write a fire strategy that we considered provided an unsatisfactory level of safety
01:24:45 safety yep and quickly we were asked i say frequently we have been asked in the past to justify something which we cannot justify i'm the same time we
01:24:59 cannot justify i'm the same time we wouldn't put forward a strategy which we thought had no prospect of being approved by the building control authority given the particular experience you'd had in your career
01:25:12 experience you'd had in your career would you say that it was a particular skill of yours to be able to advise on the likely attitude of building control yes I mean I did have a building control
01:25:25 yes I mean I did have a building control background for the first half of my career but also I negotiated fire strategies on a huge number of projects
01:25:37 strategies on a huge number of projects with various local authorities and fire authorities throughout the country so I think it's my experience that leads me to to say that I can predict what
01:25:50 to to say that I can predict what Building Control are going to say about a particular application yeah that's a pretty long widget word of saying what we serve you nearing three lines is it
01:26:03 we serve you nearing three lines is it right that you had some contacts at our BK C's Building Control office contacts in what sense have we dealt with them previously yeah knew them come across
01:26:15 previously yeah knew them come across them worked alongside them did you did you have those contacts are new some of the people that worked at our BK c building control because they also worked with me in the Greater London
01:26:27 worked with me in the Greater London Council and who wear your contacts at our BK see building control I knew Paul Holman John Hoeven sorry and I knew Paul Henson because they were
01:26:39 I knew Paul Henson because they were both trainee surveyors when I work for the GLC yeah what happened when the GOC
01:26:50 the GLC yeah what happened when the GOC was abolished that all of the people that were employed in the GLC building regulation division were those who wanted to continue working were shared out amongst
01:27:02 continue working were shared out amongst the various building control authorities in inner and outer London yeah so it's inevitable that I would encounter people that I work with previously yep did you know anybody else I mean for
01:27:13 did you know anybody else I mean for example you know mr. John Allen no I'd never met John Allen until we had the first meeting with the Barbie casing now just to put this in context in terms of one of the reasons I'm asking you about
01:27:24 one of the reasons I'm asking you about this if we can go to a document this is ex0 five zeros six five five this is an email exchange between two of your
01:27:37 email exchange between two of your colleagues so I'm not suggesting you saw this at the time but this is between your colleagues Andrea Martin and Kate Cooney on the 17th of August and just to
01:27:49 Cooney on the 17th of August and just to summarize Kate Cooney had asked Andrew Martin whether Xavier had any contacts at La BC Building Control Kensington and Chelsea that was in that's in the second email down the end of the first
01:28:02 email down the end of the first paragraph LA BC Building Control Kensington or Chelsea do we have any contacts there can you see that I do yes and then Andrew Martin replies to mr.
01:28:15 and then Andrew Martin replies to mr. Cooney in the email at the top of the page saying I haven't dealt with that area Terry's the man for contacts down there do you see that I do yes and that
01:28:27 there do you see that I do yes and that they would have been referring to you you were the Terry in that email yes I was and it was likely to be because of your contacts at our bkc Building Control which you've just explained yeah
01:28:41 Control which you've just explained yeah did you also know any persons at our bkc TMO the tenant management organization no
01:28:52 just picking up on the theme about building control experience in your view is it common for people who come to X over to come from a building control background it's reasonably common I mean
01:29:07 background it's reasonably common I mean Kate Cooney came from a building control background I came from a building control background and andr McCracken came from the building control program
01:29:19 came from the building control program yeah it's a fertile recruiting area yeah and it's very good if they also have our engineering qualifications because they can then offer the complete range but
01:29:31 can then offer the complete range but I'm getting since this question there is something to be gained by knowing people in local authority I'd like to say the reverse is true if you go to see
01:29:43 reverse is true if you go to see somebody in a building control Authority where you were their boss previously they're likely to give you a very hard time in other words they're not prepared
01:29:55 time in other words they're not prepared to give you any favors because again on this theme is there a common perception that those who've worked in Building Control departments will know what
01:30:06 Control departments will know what building control look for and how to persuade them to approve proposals do you think that's a perception in the in the marketplace no I don't think it is
01:30:17 and and do you think that there was a perception within xover that the central service performed by the fire engineering team was to procure building
01:30:28 engineering team was to procure building control approval for the client well that is that is generally what we work for to get building control approval to fire strategies for clients yes and
01:30:43 fire strategies for clients yes and would you accept that you personally you were well known within xover as the go-to person for getting building control officers to agree with your proposals no well I wouldn't think that
01:30:55 proposals no well I wouldn't think that was true at all as I said earlier if I was dealing with former colleagues they tended to give me a hard time rather than the other way around
01:31:06 rather than the other way around okay mr. chairman that completes that topic and I'm gonna come on now to look at x overs instruction on the ground floor project so I think that would be
01:31:17 floor project so I think that would be good yes I'm not I'm not sure yet
01:31:28 good yes I'm not I'm not sure yet whether they've been I mean it's a fairly early stage in my questioning so I would hope there's not too many you said close to 12 yes if that's long enough for mr. as Jenny oh yes mister
01:31:40 enough for mr. as Jenny oh yes mister action we're gonna have a break no anyway I don't know whether we should say 10 to 12 all right 10 to 12 10 to 12 10 to 12 and I'll give you time to have a bit of a break stretch your legs it's on please don't talk to anyone about
01:31:51 on please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while they're out in the room either on this occasion or on any other I forget to remind you right you'd like to leave us know again with the ushers okay
01:32:15 right 10 to 12 then thank you
01:50:08 yes would you ask mr. mr. Ashton to come back please
01:50:20 all right mr. eshton you think you ready to carry on good yes Miss Granger yes thank you yes so I now want to turn to X Ava's appointment to the Granville
01:50:32 to X Ava's appointment to the Granville project and can you recall how it's over came to be involved in the Granville tower refurbishment work I believe an inquiry came in to my colleague James
01:50:44 inquiry came in to my colleague James Lee that was the initial approach I believe I was off sick for four weeks during July of that year and I'm not
01:51:01 during July of that year and I'm not quite sure when I came back from sick leave it was all going so to speak so I believe it was with James Lee yeah look
01:51:12 believe it was with James Lee yeah look at that email in a moment but do you have any understanding how it came about that xover was contacted in relation to the gruntled our project I think studio he told us that they had
01:51:25 I think studio he told us that they had a meeting with the London Fire Brigade and as a result of that they came to the conclusion that they needed to employ a fire consultant because of the problems that the London Fire Brigade raised do
01:51:40 that the London Fire Brigade raised do you know when sorry first of all when did Studio II say that to you can you remember very early days yeah 20 almost at the first meeting yeah and and do you
01:51:51 at the first meeting yeah and and do you know when that meeting with the London Fire Brigade had happened did it taken place some months previously believed yep and yes so let's go to the email I
01:52:02 yep and yes so let's go to the email I think you were describing so this is EXO five zeros four six eight this is an email dated the 10th of April 2012 from
01:52:15 email dated the 10th of April 2012 from Marcus Kiefer of Studio E - as you say your colleague James Lee right and and to you you can see there you're on the email mission - yeah yeah
01:52:27 email mission - yeah yeah and you can see from the email James please find attached our sketch drawing and then various drawings are and sketches are then described and then it
01:52:39 sketches are then described and then it says we would like to ask you to provide us with your initial assessment regarding fire escapes grata T's for the above lay out proposals if you have further queries or like to discuss the
01:52:50 further queries or like to discuss the above do not hesitate to contact us do you see that there I do yes and was this the first time that you had been contacted about the ground floor project I believe it was can we just look at
01:53:03 I believe it was can we just look at your witness statement this is your first witness statement and so this is e^x zero four zeros 161 at page four and
01:53:14 e^x zero four zeros 161 at page four and we're looking at paragraph three point one two and you say they're at my understanding from discussions with studio a around this time was that Kasey
01:53:26 studio a around this time was that Kasey t ma the tenant management organization responsible for the building had asked them to put together a proposal for the upgrade and refurbishment of the building in preparation for a planning submission you see that okay yeah and
01:53:40 submission you see that okay yeah and then studio he had a preliminary meeting with the London Fire Brigade in early 2012 at which it decided that a fire consultant was required to assist with the refurbishment so that's referring to
01:53:52 the refurbishment so that's referring to the meeting you were just describing is that correct yeah now you've referred there in the very first part of that paragraph my understanding from discussions with Studio E just with with
01:54:07 discussions with Studio E just with with reference for those discussions can you recall what studio he told you regarding the proposal for the upgrade and refurbishment at that stage my memory
01:54:20 refurbishment at that stage my memory was that it was just refurbishment of the lower there was four floors in the building yes so can you recall whether over cladding of the tower was mentioned
01:54:32 over cladding of the tower was mentioned at that time when you having those initial discussions I think I saw not not verbally but I think I saw a doc where they the scope of works that they had identified included over cladding
01:54:45 had identified included over cladding that may have come slightly later okay
01:54:52 we'll come to some more emails in which the the scope of works is outlined in a moment but before we do that can we go to mr. vetches met police statement this
01:55:04 to mr. vetches met police statement this is T three zeros six five one two eight
01:55:12 so we I referred to this earlier there's a witness statement provided to the police by mr. vetch one of your colleagues at xover that's correct isn't it now can you confirm who mr. Veeck is
01:55:26 it now can you confirm who mr. Veeck is in x over he's the head of the division
01:55:32 head of the fire engineering division and materials group yeah so he's one of the most important people can we look at the second paragraph on that page she
01:55:45 the second paragraph on that page she says there I had previously been asked if we had worked with studio E before and at the time I was unable to provide details of this I have searched our records and can confirm that we worked
01:55:56 records and can confirm that we worked on two projects with them prior to Grenville these were in 2009 on the Berger primary school and in 2012-2013 on the Kensington Academy and Leisure Centre do you see that there yep I do
01:56:09 Centre do you see that there yep I do now just focusing for a moment on the Berger primary school project was that a project that you were involved with don't believe so had you previously worked with Studio E prior to the Graham
01:56:22 worked with Studio E prior to the Graham full tower project if I had I don't remember honest I'm certainly a virgin primary school doesn't ring any bells
01:56:34 primary school doesn't ring any bells with me and what about the calc project that he refers to you there had you worked on there I don't believe I had I think that was Tony Pearson
01:56:48 I may have had a peripheral involvement you know somebody may have asked me what did I think of a certain aspect of it but I don't I wasn't working on the
01:56:59 but I don't I wasn't working on the project at all regularly we might come back to that point in a moment I have a feeling mr. Lee might say that you you did work on the cults project but let's
01:57:11 did work on the cults project but let's find the reference and we'll come back to that but so your memory is that you hadn't worked with studio E prior to the ground floor project that's my memory yes I now want to ask you some questions
01:57:24 yes I now want to ask you some questions about some emails exchanged between you and mr. soon's of Studio E and April 2012 so this is at quite an early stage can we go to se a six zeros one four and
01:57:41 I want to start by looking at the email at the very bottom of that page that goes on into page two so we see there it's dated 24th of April 2012 from Bruce
01:57:54 it's dated 24th of April 2012 from Bruce tooms
01:57:54 tooms to you copying in James Lee and others at Studio E and he says dear Terry and if we can go over and I just want to
01:58:08 if we can go over and I just want to read this email as per our previous correspondence we require you to agree the back-to-back terms forwarded at the end of March as per attached RB Casey
01:58:19 end of March as per attached RB Casey will not accept any contract amendments and the 10-million P I is non-negotiable it is completely unreasonable to expect Studio E as lead consultant to cover the
01:58:30 Studio E as lead consultant to cover the 5,000,000 difference in liability to fart for fire design we have thus far had no commitment in writing from you to a fire strategy on either the calculator Center Academy residential development
01:58:42 Center Academy residential development although detrimental tower upgrade we've had no concrete input by way of drawing markups or draft reports to support the developing designs this is becoming critical for us with three weeks to go
01:58:54 critical for us with three weeks to go before we submit the stage D report for calc with much of the work undertaken so far by the whole team relying on the fire say
01:59:02 fire say the advice we've received at meetings we fear that the designs have not had adequate scrutiny and that we are at considerable risk at this late stage of late changes abortive work and possible
01:59:13 late changes abortive work and possible cost implications to the project if you are unable to reassure us that you are committed to the two projects by the end of this week both agreeing contract terms and providing detailed advice we
01:59:25 terms and providing detailed advice we will regard this as a renunciation of the Commission and be forced to look elsewhere for fire safety advice do you see that I do yes do you remember receiving that email
01:59:37 do you remember receiving that email from mr. tooms yes I think to give it a bit of background there was some discussion or disagreement about our contract the contract would have been handled by me
01:59:49 contract would have been handled by me it would have been handled by the general manager of the office and frequently we had the discussions or disagreements about PII insurance things
02:00:04 disagreements about PII insurance things like that I think my involvement with the Academy was maybe reviewing work that James near done on it initially I
02:00:17 that James near done on it initially I mean when James Lee left I think Tony Pearson took over the project but I wasn't aware of going and dealing with them on a day-to-day basis I think so -
02:00:28 them on a day-to-day basis I think so - yeah just drilling down into this and you were just mentioning it looking at that first paragraph we can see that mr. soon's was asking you to accept back-to-back the terms that they had
02:00:39 back-to-back the terms that they had agreed with the TMO which included 10 million in P I did you understand that to mean professional indemnity insurance yes it was and he says there P I
02:00:51 yes it was and he says there P I professional indemnity is non-negotiable it's completely unreasonable to expect Studio E as lead consultant to cover the 5,000,000 difference in liability to fire design now just asking you a bit
02:01:05 fire design now just asking you a bit more about that had you had a discussion with mr. Singh's about responsibility for professional indemnity insurance for the fire design I may have had a telephone conversation
02:01:17 I may have had a telephone conversation with him yes I mean we were not prepared if my memory serves me correctly we were not prepared to take out large pay I
02:01:28 not prepared to take out large pay I cover on projects I think our cover was five million and I do remember that I'll be Casey said no that's not good enough ten million is non-negotiable
02:01:40 ten million is non-negotiable quite why Bruce sounds thought that we were asking them to cover the five million difference I don't know I think I don't think I agree with him it would
02:01:51 I don't think I agree with him it would not be reasonable for an architectural practice to make up the difference I mean it appears from this that xover was
02:02:02 mean it appears from this that xover was initially unwilling to accept this responsibility as you've just described can you explain why that was was it just because your standard cover was five million or was there another reason why
02:02:13 million or was there another reason why no I think it was purely there and then mr. Singh's goes on to say in the second and third paragraph that if X / cannot reassure them about its commitment to
02:02:26 reassure them about its commitment to the calc and Grenville projects by the end of that week by agreeing contract terms and providing detailed advice then he would assume you intend to enunciate the commission we saw that didn't we we
02:02:37 the commission we saw that didn't we we did now at this point in April 2012 do you agree that X / was unwilling or unable to commit to the two projects I
02:02:49 unable to commit to the two projects I can't remember if I'm honest I mean I think that we did actually work on both the projects so we must have resolved this in some way yes I mean that I have
02:03:01 this in some way yes I mean that I have to say that historically contract disputes do have tended to hold things up I understand that about the contract
02:03:13 up I understand that about the contract dispute but he's also talking about providing detailed advice and you see that in the last paragraph is there any bill to reassure is that
02:03:24 is there any bill to reassure is that you're committed both the green contract ends and providing detailed advice do you know why it was that Xavier hadn't provided detailed advice on it may
02:03:35 provided detailed advice on it may simply have been that we weren't prepared to start work on the project until the contractual issues had been resolved so do you think he might be correct he really saying that the only
02:03:47 correct he really saying that the only advice they'd received on the calc project at that point was it in meetings yeah I mean we we would normally go to a design team meeting to discuss a project
02:03:59 design team meeting to discuss a project in advance of our having had a fee proposal accepted or and having resolved contractual agreements otherwise you know people would say we're not
02:04:10 know people would say we're not interested to come to us for just an initial discussion then we'll go elsewhere yeah I mean do you agree with me that the terms of mr. soon's as email make clear that Studio II were
02:04:21 make clear that Studio II were considering at the time that xover had provided inadequate scrutiny in respect of their count designs yes I don't you can mistake that for anything else they were firmly of that view and was
02:04:33 they were firmly of that view and was that a fair comment for them to make at that stage it may well have been do you know any more than what we see here about the nature of studio EES complaint
02:04:45 about the nature of studio EES complaint about X overs performance no I'm afraid I don't
02:04:59 so in in mr. Lee's statement he said at paragraph 3.2 of his statement that he
02:05:10 paragraph 3.2 of his statement that he said I expect this email was sent to me and Terry that was the original email we just looked at on the 10th of April 2012 as we were both already working with Studio E on the kensington Academy & Leisure Centre project for which I was
02:05:21 Leisure Centre project for which I was the lead consultant so yeah mr. Lee seems to recall that you both did work on the cult project only insofar as I gave mr. Lee advice but I'm not aware of
02:05:32 gave mr. Lee advice but I'm not aware of attending a meeting with Studio E to discuss KLC yep do you recall what kind of advice you were assisting mr. Lee with on the CAO project not specifically
02:05:44 with on the CAO project not specifically i mean bear in mind that mr. lee was relatively junior and he may have wanted some reassurance on some aspect of the design yep where you were where of
02:05:57 design yep where you were where of receiving any other complaints regarding x overs performance in relation to the calc project no was resourcing an issue within X over at this time resourcing
02:06:12 within X over at this time resourcing was also always an issue we didn't get to the point where we were taking on more work than we could actually deal with but you know if you're working on
02:06:23 with but you know if you're working on multiple projects as we all were there's always a difficulty when people want something yesterday and they can't get it till tomorrow I'm thinking back to
02:06:35 it till tomorrow I'm thinking back to the period that we're going to look at in the moment so this is kind of spring of 2012 and then going forward in 2012 and then into 2013 do you recall that
02:06:46 and then into 2013 do you recall that being a particularly bad time in terms of resourcing or was it the same as always was it we've always been very busy all of us that may be because we're
02:07:01 busy all of us that may be because we're our own success or whatever but we've always had a lot of clients and a lot of projects I don't recall this period of time as being particularly busy or difficult we were always having to deal
02:07:16 difficult we were always having to deal with lots of queries yeah just going back to the terms of mr. Singh's his email do you agree that it was clear from the terms of his email that Studio II were expecting xover to commit
02:07:28 II were expecting xover to commit themselves to providing detailed advice going forward in respect of both projects yes and can you recall how you managed to reassure mr. tooms
02:07:41 managed to reassure mr. tooms about X Ava's commitment at this point I mean as you've said you did in fact go on to work on the ground foot project what gave him I think we must have had I must have had a telephone conversation
02:07:52 must have had a telephone conversation with him saying yes we are commissioning yes we will give you detailed help but we don't record telephone telephone conversations and you have and do you
02:08:04 conversations and you have and do you have any memory of that telephone call with mr. Singh's no I'm afraid I don't what steps did you take having received this email to make sure that xover did commit properly to
02:08:15 sure that xover did commit properly to the Grenville tower project well I think we both started working on the project earth change Lee and myself I'm not sure
02:08:28 earth change Lee and myself I'm not sure that the contractual issue was necessarily resolved at that stage but notwithstanding that I think we agreed that we could start work on the project yep now we can see from this email
02:08:39 yep now we can see from this email string if we scroll up to page one that your response to this email was to refer mr. students to your general manager David Harris yeah did you have any
02:08:53 David Harris yeah did you have any further involvement in this particular exchange or episode about PR insurance or commitment I don't believe as I said earlier the
02:09:05 I don't believe as I said earlier the contractual issues were dealt with by the general manager
02:09:11 let's turn on then to look at the fee proposal for the primary refurbishment on the ground floor projects so having been approached about the project in April 2012 you prepared a fee proposal
02:09:25 April 2012 you prepared a fee proposal for X overs work on the primary refurbishment in May 2012 is that right yes it was can we look at that so if we go to it's at exo five zeros for seven
02:09:36 go to it's at exo five zeros for seven four so this is sorry this isn't the feed way so this is an email shortly before that and it's an email dated the
02:09:51 before that and it's an email dated the third of May that you received from mr. soon's copying in James Lee do you see that from the top yes and it's to
02:10:02 that from the top yes and it's to request a fee proposal and he says dear all the application for funding for the ground floor tower upgrade goes before the cabinet this evening with every likelihood the six million asked for
02:10:14 likelihood the six million asked for will be agreed I anticipate mark Anderson from the TMO our client to quickly follow up with confirmation as a scope of the project but the principles are probably going to be based on the attached sket and then a number of
02:10:27 attached sket and then a number of points numbered points appear there and he says at the end please could I have your fee proposal for this based on the above and the attached information please break this down into the stages
02:10:40 please break this down into the stages cdef and beyond if required and give a summary of what you will be doing it at each stage do you see that I didn't now taking this in stages so we've seen this
02:10:51 taking this in stages so we've seen this is an email to you and he's explaining in that second paragraph what he describes as the principles on which the refurbishment was probably going to be based is what he says do you see that
02:11:04 based is what he says do you see that yes I don't and we can see what it included so we can see number one new flats on the vacant office level remove stair an infill to se corner to tower
02:11:16 stair an infill to se corner to tower etc number three enclosure to external areas at deck level to create new accommodation possibly housing then at four we see over cladding then at five new boilers
02:11:30 over cladding then at five new boilers to all flats and then at six we configure to entrance circulation areas to the tower so is it right that at this early stage you knew that the
02:11:41 early stage you knew that the refurbishment would involve over cladding item four yes yes I think that's reasonable and it's right isn't it that any such over cladding would affect the entire building wouldn't it
02:11:52 affect the entire building wouldn't it oh yes
02:11:54 oh yes and we can also see that the proposal at five involved new boilers to all flats do you see that I do and again that would affect the building as a whole wouldn't it and not just the lower
02:12:06 wouldn't it and not just the lower floors yes but it wouldn't have been a concern to us new boilers two flats that would be an engineering item a building services item well we'll come back to this later but just to pick you up on
02:12:18 this later but just to pick you up on that what about potential breaches of compartment ation if you are putting in the pipe work and infrastructure to deliver new boilers to all flats is that not potentially something that you would
02:12:31 not potentially something that you would need to consider well I mean I'm assuming maybe you shouldn't assume that new boilers with in balance flew boilers which would be on the exterior to building I see so you thought the new
02:12:45 building I see so you thought the new boilers what am i saying was they didn't take too much notice of it because it wasn't a fire critical item okay but just to be clear did you understand that
02:12:56 just to be clear did you understand that your scope of work would it be in relation to each of these six items I mean mr. soon says at the end of those items please could I have your fee proposal for this do you see that yeah I
02:13:07 proposal for this do you see that yeah I think that a fee proposal would have covered item five had there been an issue on the flats to discuss
02:13:18 can we turn to paragraph three point seven of your witness statement so this is EXO four zeros 161 at page three so
02:13:32 is EXO four zeros 161 at page three so it starts at the bottom of that page if we just read that together it states that the requirements of schedule one of Part B which are relevant to a fire strategy vary depending on the nature of
02:13:44 strategy vary depending on the nature of the work being done in the case of Grenville that proposed the proposal involved the bottom four floors having some degree of change of use including residential accommodation on one level
02:13:56 residential accommodation on one level this meant that our fire strategy advised focused predominantly on the bottom four floors do you see that yes I do but just to look at that and be more
02:14:07 do but just to look at that and be more specific it's right isn't it though that the proposal didn't only involve a change of use to the bottom four floors did in no as we've seen the the proposal
02:14:21 did in no as we've seen the the proposal was to establish over cladding and that would affect every story of the building wouldn't it that's why we use the word predominantly in other words it was indignant
02:14:32 indignant it wasn't exclusively based on the last four floors but it was predominantly based on that in terms of input I would have expected the work on the
02:14:43 have expected the work on the refurbishment of the last four floors they would take much more time than consideration of over cladding but do
02:14:55 consideration of over cladding but do you agree with me that there was nothing in mr. Singh's email of the third of May which suggested that the fee proposal or the work to be carried out by x over was to be limited only to the works concerning the bottom four floors no no
02:15:08 concerning the bottom four floors no no I agree it doesn't say that
02:15:15 let's go back to the email of the 3rd of May now that was an EXO five zeroes for seven four we can see in those last few lines we just read them that brief
02:15:27 lines we just read them that brief students request a fee proposal and asks that you break it down into the stages cdef etc and he's referring there to the
02:15:38 cdef etc and he's referring there to the RI ba stages isn't he he is indeed so it's right then that you knew that you had to break down the work into the RI ba stages is that correct
02:15:49 ba stages is that correct broadly yes and he also says there so he's got stages C de but he also talks about F and beyond if required do you
02:16:02 about F and beyond if required do you see that yes so again did you understand that he was asking you to advise on whether work would be required at stage F and beyond in any proposal it was my
02:16:13 F and beyond in any proposal it was my understanding that we would what we might be asked to work beyond stage II yes but I think maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but if you look at our fee
02:16:24 of myself but if you look at our fee proposal we you couldn't we couldn't quantify the amount of work that was necessary at F and Beyond and so we said it would be done on an hourly rate yes we will look at that yeah okay and he
02:16:36 we will look at that yeah okay and he also says they're just the very final lines that you were to give a summary of what you will be doing at each stage do you see that yes indeed now let's turn to the fee proposal itself that's at t
02:16:49 to the fee proposal itself that's at t mo one three zeroes three eight eight five
02:17:00 now are you familiar with this document have you had a chance to oh yes yeah so it's dated we can see from the first page it's dated the 9th of May and it's
02:17:12 page it's dated the 9th of May and it's addressed at the top to mr. soon's at Studio E and if we look at page 5 of this proposal at the bottom of the page we can see that you were the author of
02:17:24 we can see that you were the author of this proposal is that correct I was yes and it was reviewed by mr. Shawn is it McElhaney like aloneness Mecca Lanie thank you now he is described there as a
02:17:39 thank you now he is described there as a graduate engineer is that correct he was a graduate engineer yes at the time he reviewed this three proposal and we will come back to look at his seniority later
02:17:51 come back to look at his seniority later but he was junior to you wasn't he yes he was
02:17:56 he was so looking at the the substance of the proposal if we go back to page 2 this begins with a proposed scope of work now
02:18:07 begins with a proposed scope of work now you say in the very first sentence that the first paragraph the planned fire safety work would be undertaking using the relevant design codes and will facilitate the progression of the design
02:18:18 facilitate the progression of the design from our IBA stage C to RI b a stage F and then in the second paragraph it states that the aim of the fire safety work will be to ensure a high standard
02:18:29 work will be to ensure a high standard of fire and life safety for the occupants of the building whilst highlighting any areas of the building's design that may represent an approvals risk and then additionally we may
02:18:40 risk and then additionally we may recommend ways to resolve these issues we will recommend ways to resolve these issues to ensure that the fire and life safety objectives are achieved in the most cost effective way possible and make sure that the fire strategy
02:18:52 and make sure that the fire strategy does not compromise the architectural concept for the design do you see that there yes I do
02:19:00 now there we can see towards the end you've talked about the aim of the fire safety work would be to ensure a high standard of fire and life safety so it's important to note that at the beginning
02:19:11 important to note that at the beginning of that paragraph yes and then towards the end of that paragraph the second to last line it's talking about the most cost effective way possible can you just
02:19:24 cost effective way possible can you just explain to what extent was cost-effectiveness a central consideration in terms of what you were proposing to do it's not central ok
02:19:36 proposing to do it's not central ok perhaps I should explain that we have a suite of templates which enable us to produce these documents more rapidly than would otherwise be the case if we
02:19:47 than would otherwise be the case if we if we had to do a bespoke fire safety strategy sorry fire fire proposal for a fire strategy and every time it would be very time-consuming and would not be
02:19:58 very time-consuming and would not be commercially acceptable so the reason we've done this is to speed things up yeah so what you're seeing there is standard wording that applies to pretty
02:20:11 standard wording that applies to pretty much every single fee proposal that we sent out I see so would that cost effective mention there apply whether it was a local authority project project
02:20:23 was a local authority project project for a PMA like it was here or a private building it would apply across the board I mean what we're trying to say to the client in this case if it is that we
02:20:36 client in this case if it is that we don't want you to waste money will help you to save money if it's appropriate to do so it isn't the primary focus of our word and when you say you had a suite of
02:20:51 word and when you say you had a suite of templates that you could choose from to what extent was at your usual practice to spend a bit of time checking that the template was appropriate for the project you were proposing for we would only not
02:21:04 you were proposing for we would only not be wouldn't check the wording of the fee proposal from start to finish we would just insert the things that we thought were necessary to accomplish the task we're
02:21:15 necessary to accomplish the task we're being asked a quote for so it would be the scope of work that we identify in the fee proposal the introduction wouldn't change for any job here what
02:21:30 wouldn't change for any job here what about I mean it talks about our Oba stage C 2 stage F which is what mr. soon's had been referring to in his email
02:21:36 email would they be tailored to the particular proposal or could that vary if we look at the work we're suggesting under our
02:21:48 at the work we're suggesting under our IV a stage C the first paragraph and the second paragraph would be the same for every job where the detail changes in the number of design team meetings that
02:22:01 the number of design team meetings that we anticipate will be necessary
02:22:05 discussions the number of meetings that we would need to have with Building Control or the fire service to establish that we're on the right lines creation
02:22:17 that we're on the right lines creation of an outline fire strategy document will be standard and so with the last paragraph so in relation to how much this template would have been changed for this particular part of the fee
02:22:29 for this particular part of the fee proposal I would suggest it's probably just two paragraphs I see
02:22:39 and so let's look at what you say at our I be a stage see ya it's clearly stated there in the first paragraph that it would the work at stage C would provide
02:22:51 would the work at stage C would provide a this is the second sentence a level of confidence with regard to the fire safety design and approvals risk do you see that yes one days I think we just said it's that standard wording it is
02:23:03 said it's that standard wording it is standing yes and it would focus on issues that would either have a net effect on a future application under the building regulations or would have a significant cost impact is that correct that's correct and then we can see from
02:23:17 that's correct and then we can see from the second short paragraph that work will include the production of a preliminary fire strategy report which would summarize the main fire issues on the project do you see that yesterday
02:23:29 the project do you see that yesterday and then in the bullets we see what it involves so again you've said some of I think you said some of these are standard items is that correct most of
02:23:40 standard items is that correct most of them are yeah are there any in that bullet point list that weren't standard items the only thing that changed in those bullets is the amount of time we've allocated to with meetings in
02:23:55 we've allocated to with meetings in other words we would do that at stage C for any project what the variable would be the number of meetings that we needed to have in order to give them a level of confidence I see but would that go into
02:24:08 confidence I see but would that go into your the fee section of this scope of work or would you sometimes have a number of design team meetings here that you would attend because no number is given here it says it includes returned
02:24:21 given here it says it includes returned and set up to two meetings oh I'm so sorry you're right at that stage you're using a very broad brush I think so you only need to have a
02:24:32 brush I think so you only need to have a couple of meetings with the design team to establish the way forward I see
02:24:40 the third bullet talks about production of an outline fire safety strategy document to assist early design development do you see that yes and then
02:24:53 development do you see that yes and then the fourth bullet provision of an updated revision of the outline fire safety strategy report to reflect any agreed changes to the strategy so is it
02:25:04 agreed changes to the strategy so is it right that you've got a you produce a preliminary report it's an outline and then within stage C or in visiting developing that note would be developed
02:25:17 developing that note would be developed in stage C in stage D when we say early design development it's quite possible at stage see that the design might change yep so we need to cover ourselves
02:25:31 change yep so we need to cover ourselves for that if they give us a set of drawings and say well this is our concept design and we produce an outline fire strategy for that and then they come back and say oh we've decided we're
02:25:43 come back and say oh we've decided we're not gonna do this and here's another set of drawing we have to take that into account I see so it's really addressing changes that come in at boundaries and you know I'll give you an example if we
02:25:55 you know I'll give you an example if we went to had an initial meeting with a building control authority and the representative of that Berlin control authority said your strategy is
02:26:06 authority said your strategy is unacceptable want another staircase or something like that then that would be changed at that stage yeah if we weren't able to persuade them otherwise yeah now we know that our IBA stage C is the the
02:26:20 we know that our IBA stage C is the the stage of a concept design and can we go back now and just look at the fire industry association guidance no that we looked at before that's at inq three
02:26:31 looked at before that's at inq three zeros one one two one nine at page four
02:26:38 and if we go within page 4 to the sentence before the bullets in the middle of the page
02:26:56 so we looked at this before it was the primary aspects of responsibility for the fire engineer is to identify the fire safety design objectives for the project such as but not limited to
02:27:07 project such as but not limited to identification of any relevant statutory controls confirmation of any client fire safety requirements and and then insurance requirements now just concentrating on the identification of
02:27:19 concentrating on the identification of the relevant statutory controls if we go back to your fee proposal that's TMO one triple zero three eight eight five - -
02:27:34 was it part of the scope of work you were in visiting at our IBA stage C that you would identify the relevant statutory controls in that preliminary fire strategy yes probably yes probably
02:27:49 fire strategy yes probably yes probably well yeah I mean if we were just saying this is what you need to do to make a start on it then we might not say the
02:28:00 start on it then we might not say the building is subject to the building regulations to section 20 and when occupied it'll be subject to the rigor to reform order it might just simply be a series of bullet point saying what
02:28:11 a series of bullet point saying what needs to be done to progress the design I think but wouldn't you would you accept that identification of the relevant statutory controls was a
02:28:22 relevant statutory controls was a primary importance in terms of ensuring a high standard of fire and life safety absolutely
02:28:32 now looking at the third sentence under this stage see section in the first paragraph you've got their issues that would either have an effect on the feature application under the building
02:28:43 feature application under the building regulation regulations or would have a significant cost impact there's no Express mention here of life safety now I accept it's mentioned in the proposed
02:28:56 I accept it's mentioned in the proposed scope of work at the top of this page but is there a reason why you haven't mentioned life safety again in this stage c-section well I think the application under the Building
02:29:07 application under the Building Regulations 2010 would have to include life safety so we don't repeat it I see it's implicit within the Building Regulations reference going back again
02:29:19 Regulations reference going back again to page 6 I'm afraid we're going to do this a little bit jump between the the guidance and the proposal we go back to page 6 of the Fire Industry Association guidance note that's inq three zeros 1 1
02:29:32 guidance note that's inq three zeros 1 1 2 1 9 at page 6
02:29:39 so it it states there at the very first paragraph under our IBA state - that's
02:29:50 paragraph under our IBA state - that's previously staged see that's that's better thank you it states there on an agreed drawing issue carry out a compliance check and identify any aspects of the design where
02:30:02 identify any aspects of the design where changes would be required or fire engineering analyses are needed do you see that yes now looking back at your proposal for stage C back to TM oh yes
02:30:17 proposal for stage C back to TM oh yes thank you
02:30:17 thank you and where is it identified that such a compliance check will be necessary and will be carried out
02:30:33 we doesn't actually say that maybe it should but I mean in order to develop an outline fire safety strategy you need to be able to look at the building the
02:30:46 be able to look at the building the outline of the building the plans of the buildings No maybe it's assumed that you can't do the job without that yeah so just to be clear your understanding was that it's staged see you would be
02:30:58 that it's staged see you would be carrying out a compliance check based on the available drawings yes I would expect that and we did yep then if we look at our IB a status D and E they're
02:31:11 look at our IB a status D and E they're they're dealt with together in this feat proposal if we look at the next section down on this and it starts on page two and over into page three right if we can
02:31:23 and over into page three right if we can start by looking at the first paragraph it says that the work at stages D and E would involve work undertaken during our IB a stage C will be further developed
02:31:35 IB a stage C will be further developed during the approval stage of the project where the work would ultimately involve the creation of a detailed fire strategy for the proposed development which will be written in line with the requirements of the building regulations 2010 did you
02:31:50 of the building regulations 2010 did you see that yes I do just look at something else and then I'm gonna ask you a question about this so and then at paragraph two it then says the fire strategy sign fire safety design will be documented in a fire
02:32:03 design will be documented in a fire strategy report this document will ultimately be submitted to the Building Control Authority in order to achieve regulatory approval do you see that yes I do so is it right that it was clearly
02:32:15 I do so is it right that it was clearly envisage that the document that you would produce at stage D straight II would be submitted to Building Control to get their approval on the project yes it would
02:32:26 it would and then in the third paragraph it states that the farm safety strategy would be developed to comply with the relevant statutory requirements and you
02:32:38 relevant statutory requirements and you say that primarily that's the building regulations the regulator reform order 2005 in the London building acts nine 39 and would also utilize relevant standards and fire safety guidance
02:32:50 standards and fire safety guidance documents do you see that yesterday and then what you've done there is say that the fire safety strategy for the building will consider the following items and you've listed out items they're under bullet points and with
02:33:05 they're under bullet points and with that all standard wording you take it from the templates standard wording and we can see there that the fourth bullet
02:33:18 we can see there that the fourth bullet as determination of any external fire spread issues that there may be and the impact this may have on the architectural design did you specifically focus on that when you were
02:33:30 specifically focus on that when you were prepared preparing this fee proposal did you think to yourself well I know there's going to be over cladding because I've been told that and therefore determination of any external fire spread issues needs to go into this
02:33:41 fire spread issues needs to go into this proposal
02:33:41 proposal no I didn't specifically concentrate on that as you identify as yourself it's standard wording or at least I've confirmed you it's standard wording so that goes into every fee proposal that
02:33:53 that goes into every fee proposal that we do but was that in your mind at this stage were you thinking to yourself well I know we're gonna have to look at that because I've been told there's an over cladding proposal I can't honestly say
02:34:04 cladding proposal I can't honestly say that I focused on the cladding at that stage now and then the next bullet is recommendations of compartment ation and structural fire protection standards do
02:34:15 structural fire protection standards do you see that yes I do
02:34:18 and again that was standard wording was it it was yes and then over on to page three the first bullet in the second list that you've explained what the
02:34:33 list that you've explained what the scope of work would involve and that includes attending relevant design team meetings and providing appropriate fire safety guidance to other members of the design team to assist the development do you see that yesterday now it's right
02:34:46 you see that yesterday now it's right isn't it that our IBA state D is the design development stage and Stage II is the technical design stage is that correct
02:34:54 correct you're correct in what you say but they frequently from our perspective right yeah when a design team produces a design it
02:35:07 design team produces a design it produces a staged D report a stadia for a stage F report and so on but we don't necessarily follow that rigidly so for
02:35:18 necessarily follow that rigidly so for example if we produce a fire strategy document for stage D and we don't make any changes to it at stage G then it remains the same document I see and does
02:35:30 remains the same document I see and does that explain why you've conflated D and E in this proposal probably yes that D frequently merge in that way yep now just going back to the beginning of this
02:35:42 just going back to the beginning of this section that we've just looked at going back one page and looking at the bottom of the page at stage de it clearly
02:35:54 of the page at stage de it clearly envisaged a detailed fire strategy for the refurbishment at this stage didn't it that's in the second line yes that first paragraph yep now when you were
02:36:06 first paragraph yep now when you were writing that part of the proposal I mean it sounds like that would be standard wording so you wouldn't have reached out but when you were putting this grenfell proposal together what did you in visit
02:36:18 proposal together what did you in visit a detailed fire strategy would include one dealt with all of the functional requirements from b1 to b5 does it
02:36:30 requirements from b1 to b5 does it follow from that that a preliminary fire strategy that you'd committed to providing at stage C might not include all of B 1 to B 5 no not necessarily I
02:36:43 all of B 1 to B 5 no not necessarily I mean it might just deal with the issues that had arisen during Stacey and doesn't always do that I mean frequently
02:36:55 doesn't always do that I mean frequently people haven't committed to a particular aspect of a design and so there's nothing you can say about it but yes I mean ordinarily you would consider our IV a stages sorry
02:37:07 IV a stages sorry so just be one to be fond of the building regulations because they all have an impact on the design some more than others yeah for example if you're looking at
02:37:19 yeah for example if you're looking at external fire spread in relation to distance to other buildings that's something that needs to be identified at stage C you're building your building too close to the boundary by Genting for
02:37:31 too close to the boundary by Genting for space separation that space section 13 of a DB yeah yeah we'll come and look at that actually yeah but looking back to this and at the time you were working on
02:37:43 this and at the time you were working on this proposal how different was the detailed fire strategy going to be in your mind to the preliminary fire strategy report well the preliminary report was very I
02:37:55 well the preliminary report was very I don't like to use the word sketchy but it was a series of headings in our design note as to what needed to be considered subsequent issues of that
02:38:07 considered subsequent issues of that report that were more detailed I presa that's what happened in practice but when you were at the outset of your work and you were looking forward how
02:38:18 and you were looking forward how different would the detailed strategy be to the preliminary one I mean would they look like very different documents oh yes there were being yeah I mean a preliminary report would be quite short
02:38:29 preliminary report would be quite short possibly two sides of any for a more detailed fire strategy could run to ten pages
02:38:38 pages possibly I see so what you were committing to understate see might have been as short as one or two pages indeed and then something more details I see at stage D can we just look at sorry before
02:38:54 stage D can we just look at sorry before I do just to be clear was it your intention to be producing an increasing level of detail over the course of the project yes it would that would be the intention let's look at paragraph 3.20
02:39:08 intention let's look at paragraph 3.20 of your witness statement this is an EXO four zeros 161 page six
02:39:18 you confirmed that there he say around stages D and E the initial advice is typically developed and changes are made to the strategy as the design changes
02:39:29 to the strategy as the design changes develops do you see that there I do yes
02:39:34 and is it right that the detailed fire strategy by the end of stage C will be required to provide sufficient information to enable the preparation of
02:39:46 information to enable the preparation of technical designs and specifications at stage C or stage D it should have done yes now if we can look back at the fire
02:40:00 yes now if we can look back at the fire industry association guidance note that's fine q three zeros one one two one nine at page six and if we look at
02:40:12 one nine at page six and if we look at the bottom of that page and what it says about stage D so it says there in the first paragraph that the fire engineer
02:40:26 first paragraph that the fire engineer should review the design documentation produced by others to ensure that it complies with the fire strategy identify any aspects of the design where changes will be be required or fire engineering analyses are needed do you see that I do
02:40:38 analyses are needed do you see that I do indeed and would you agree that that's an important part of the work of a fire safety engineer i reviewing the design documentation produced by others yes I would and can you explain why that's so
02:40:51 would and can you explain why that's so important
02:40:55 well it's the only way you can identify something's not right yeah it's generally by review of
02:41:06 yeah it's generally by review of drawings rather than looking at documents yeah at that stage stage D I mean you you
02:41:18 at that stage stage D I mean you you will get detailed specifications of a later stage in the Riv a process but we might not be involved in that at that stage but I wouldn't expect to see a detailed specification of all the
02:41:29 detailed specification of all the building components at stage D you certainly Willie well-developed drawings yeah just going back then to your scope
02:41:40 yeah just going back then to your scope of works for RIBA stages D&E so that's TMO one three zeros three eight eight five at page two and we just looked at
02:41:54 five at page two and we just looked at that and the scope of work of the guy over onto page three the scope of work is at the top of the next page page three if we can zoom in on those four bullets escape of work can you explain is there provision for
02:42:07 can you explain is there provision for reviewing the design documentation here in this scope of works only if it's available in fairly limited form bear in
02:42:19 available in fairly limited form bear in mind we're still designing looking at design changes in design to the drawings of the building as I say there will be specifications such as the specification
02:42:31 specifications such as the specification for the fire alarm system where they've got one for smoke extract systems if that is ready at that stage those sort of things but detailed specification for
02:42:45 of things but detailed specification for building construction not necessarily because a lot of these go out to tinder I think it's right that we don't see that expressly mentioned here do we we've got attending design team meetings
02:42:56 we've got attending design team meetings to provide guidance further development of the paluma Nephi strategy report yeah discussions as and when appropriate with the statutory authorities to seek their approval and providing an updated
02:43:07 approval and providing an updated revision of the fire to actually report to effect any changes can you explain why we don't see there any provision for reviewing the design documentation produced by others because
02:43:21 documentation produced by others because it comes a stage F generally I mean very in mind what I said earlier that these templates are standard wording if you look in stage F ya you get documents
02:43:35 look in stage F ya you get documents coming in as part of a tender review phase so if somebody's proposing to use a certain formal construction it would come in at that stage and you would
02:43:47 come in at that stage and you would advise the design team as to the appropriateness of what was being offered frequently how they're going to build the building doesn't actually
02:44:00 become obvious until a contractor has been appointed who said this is the way I want to do it but there will be some
02:44:11 I want to do it but there will be some documentation in from the building services engineer on fire safety systems albeit in maybe in fairly general terms which we would expect to review yeah
02:44:23 which we would expect to review yeah particularly if they were deviating from the norm if they if the document said we were going to provide a fire alarm detection system to this particular British standard we wouldn't query them
02:44:36 British standard we wouldn't query them right so I think we've I think we're agreed that it's an important part of the process oh yes but what you're saying is you would have envisaged when this proposal was being put together that that would happen at stage F and
02:44:49 that that would happen at stage F and following not at stage de but not necessary as I say these these things aren't asked in stone if somebody has the documentation ready earlier then we
02:45:01 the documentation ready earlier then we would look at it but of necessity we keep our fee proposals fairly and concise otherwise they run into pages and pages but I think you might agree
02:45:15 and pages but I think you might agree with me but let's just test this would you agree that review by a competent fire safety engineer and Han as the chances that the building design will meet the functional requirements yes I agree and would you agree that the
02:45:29 yes I agree and would you agree that the reverse is the case that if there is no review of the design documentation by a competent fire engineer it increases the chances that the design will not comply with the functional requirements that could be true yes so let's look then at
02:45:42 could be true yes so let's look then at stage F which is just at the bottom of this page that is the stage for production information to enable tenders to be obtained that's that's how our IBA
02:45:59 to be obtained that's that's how our IBA explained stage F yeah if we can read the first paragraph under stage F it says there during this stage of work we would assist the design team and appointed contractor for the development
02:46:12 appointed contractor for the development in addressing the fire safety issues that appeared during the tender review phase this work is likely to result in further adjustments to the fire safety strategies approved during our IBA stages de and then the next
02:46:32 yes and then the the bullets we see the scope of work we've got attend relevant fire safety meetings with the design team and a pointed contractor to clarify the fire safety strategies used
02:46:44 the fire safety strategies used throughout the development and then troubleshooting strategic fire safety issues that are identified by the contractors do you see those there yes indeed then discussing contractors
02:46:55 indeed then discussing contractors issues and proposed solutions as I'm going to propria that for next one and then provide an updated revision of the fire strategy document is the final one
02:47:07 fire strategy document is the final one so what sort of assistance did you envisage providing to the design team and the appointed contractor at this stage can you just describe that in your own words we would go to meetings as and
02:47:21 own words we would go to meetings as and when required we would review documents as and when required and we would comment on those if there were trouble there were issues that the contractor
02:47:33 there were issues that the contractor wasn't happy with in how he was going to achieve the requirement in the fire safety strategy we would meet with him and resolve those were you in visiting I
02:47:46 and resolve those were you in visiting I mean it sounds what you're describing like quite a passive role whereby you wait to be approached at this stage yes because not all contractors employ us to
02:48:02 because not all contractors employ us to put it simply they might have their own fire consultants some of them do and they would take over our role effectively that stage F but would you
02:48:15 effectively that stage F but would you agree that if you were the client reading this and we'll come on to who the client was in G course and but if you were the client reading this you
02:48:26 you were the client reading this you might be in visiting that you would be assisting the design team that you would be attending relevant meetings I think the key words here would be if asked
02:48:40 the key words here would be if asked we can't compel the client to employers till the end of the project it has to come from him I see so is what you're
02:48:53 come from him I see so is what you're saying here that this would only kick in this reba stage f if asked to do it yes and that's why when we did our food proposal we said any work to be done at
02:49:05 proposal we said any work to be done at this stage would be charged on an hourly basis although we could provide a lump sum if an agreed scope of work was identified or worse of that effect will
02:49:17 identified or worse of that effect will come back to this but another question on this does does this work that you're describing here you're talking about working with the contractor the appointed contractor actually fit more
02:49:28 appointed contractor actually fit more accurately under state k of the RI be a plan of work which is the construction through to practical completion stage no it's still at the stage where there is a
02:49:40 it's still at the stage where there is a degree of value engineering taking place value engineering tends to take place when a contractor is employed and he looks at what has been agreed and thinks
02:49:53 looks at what has been agreed and thinks to himself well maybe we can do this a little better a little cheaper and that happens all the time yes I understand that would happen when the contractor
02:50:04 that would happen when the contractor had been appointed not before yes but but my point is that our IBA state F is for production information to enable tenders to be obtained yes so thinking
02:50:19 tenders to be obtained yes so thinking about it with reference to that isn't what you're describing actually work which comes in a later or IBA stage well you assist the design team in
02:50:32 providing the design that is then presented for tender I saw a nun put it very well but they have to tender against a design yes in an order to win
02:50:44 against a design yes in an order to win that they they need to be cost effective put it bluntly if they can do it cheaper than the end the next tender other than they will in probably get the job yes
02:50:57 they will in probably get the job yes point they would say we have a problem with some of the aspects of your design can we discuss it yes that's my point because in fact going forward so stage f its production
02:51:09 forward so stage f its production information stage G is tender documentation and state H is tender action so by definition what you're describing here and what you're describing now does appear to be much
02:51:21 describing now does appear to be much later in the project do you agree well I think you may well be right but we didn't progress to stage F on this project and we rarely do on other projects for reasons I've already given
02:51:34 projects for reasons I've already given I think that there is some work at stage F which would be covered by the definition of the work in here yeah because it implies that the contract has
02:51:48 because it implies that the contract has already been appointed yeah and once then a contractor is employed he or she will want to critically examine what he
02:51:59 will want to critically examine what he or she is being asked to build so whether it comes in stage F or later I'd I wouldn't like to argue looking at this first paragraph again under stage F in
02:52:12 first paragraph again under stage F in the second sentence you say there this work is likely to result in further adjustments to the fire safety strategies approved during our IBA stages D and E do you see that yes we do
02:52:23 stages D and E do you see that yes we do so was it envisaged that the fire strategy would be adjusted and revised from the state de State at this later stage and as the result of new the
02:52:35 stage and as the result of new the interaction with the contractor and following the tender phase I think the wording is this work is likely to result in further adjustments it might not and why might it well if there's no
02:52:49 not and why might it well if there's no fundamental change in the design as a result of the contractor being appointed and querying the design then you wouldn't need to make significant
02:53:02 wouldn't need to make significant adjustments to the fire safety strategy I see but was your understanding at the time you put this proposal together that xover would be tacking whether after stage DNA there was a need to
02:53:15 after stage DNA there was a need to revise the fire safety strategy and produce a further version that kept up with the design again I have to tell you this is a standard template and that
02:53:26 this is a standard template and that wording is standard to all of them yes but I understand that but I'm thinking about what what you envisaged would happen on the project did you envisage that xover would proactively make sure
02:53:38 that xover would proactively make sure the fire strategy report was updated after the stage de stove if we were appointed but we weren't you know we
02:53:49 appointed but we weren't you know we weren't when we produced the fire sorry the fee proposal we weren't sure that we were going to be employed beyond D&E where does it stay say here we'll do all
02:54:02 where does it stay say here we'll do all of this but only a few pointers at this stage well I think that you know if it doesn't say that and I wouldn't expect you to say that I mean if you take the
02:54:14 you to say that I mean if you take the thing on face value we're assuming in sending this fee proposal that we will be working to the end of stages and nothing would stop yeah but doesn't
02:54:26 nothing would stop yeah but doesn't always happen as I say in my witness statement it doesn't we said we frequently get dropped at the end of when we produced an unacceptable fire
02:54:38 when we produced an unacceptable fire safety strategy can I just ask I noticed that the the way that this is expressed here is slightly conditional during this stage of the work we would assist the
02:54:50 stage of the work we would assist the design team and to paragraphs on the scope of work would include is that deliberate or I don't believe it is deliberate no I mean I could it could it
02:55:03 deliberate no I mean I could it could it could be interpreted we would do it if we were asked to oh yes well this is why I'm asking you is the choice alt language deliberate I don't believe it is deliberate but I mean when we do
02:55:14 is deliberate but I mean when we do these when we do these fee proposals it's it isn't will necessarily its will in certain stage because people want to know that they're signing up to something that is definite
02:55:26 signing up to something that is definite if we do put the word in would there than is I think you're right it would be well if we're employ we could do this
02:55:39 just following this theme can we look at what you say immediately after the bullet points here we see a sentence completion of this scope of services will occur once all the above-mentioned
02:55:51 will occur once all the above-mentioned goals are accomplished do you see that yes I do now is it right when you were putting this together that you expected your work would be complete only after
02:56:02 your work would be complete only after those four bullets were completed I think what it's meant to say is that if you want any further work done we would have to provide a fresh free proposal
02:56:14 have to provide a fresh free proposal because this is all that we're offering to do in this particular document was it in visit at this stage and I want you to think back when you were drafting this
02:56:27 think back when you were drafting this putting this together was it envisage that you would move from stage to stage without waiting for specific instructions to engage in the next stage from the client that would
02:56:40 next stage from the client that would have stopped at the end of stage II because we said we were quite specific that work our IV a stage air for non words would be at an hourly rate but if
02:56:53 words would be at an hourly rate but if he hadn't if he come back and said carry on and I'm happy to pay your hourly rate then we would have carried on so yeah got a sense it it would flow through but what we'll see in due course is that the
02:57:04 what we'll see in due course is that the TNA accept this fee proposal there's an email back to saying your fee proposal is accepted and we'll look at that in due course and but what I'm asking you is if an instruction was required to move from stage to stage I take your
02:57:17 move from stage to stage I take your point that it talks about an hourly rate in the in the fee part which will come to you but where does it say in this proposal that an instruction will be required
02:57:27 required it isn't normally required we don't normally get letter from the client or an email saying you can now proceed to stage f we
02:57:38 saying you can now proceed to stage f we assume that if they have accepted the fee proposal that is an invitation to do what we said in there great yep so once they've accepted this fee proposal you would keep moving from
02:57:50 proposal you would keep moving from stage to stage unless you were told otherwise
02:57:53 otherwise correct yep now just on a slightly different topic but still looking at stage F you're just going to take some
02:58:04 stage F you're just going to take some topic I see that probably is a good moment to stop sorry I think yes why
02:58:16 moment to stop sorry I think yes why don't we why don't we pause there it's gonna be a little bit more than two minutes that we're making we're making good progress good mr. eshton we're getting a break now so that we will get some lunch
02:58:27 now so that we will get some lunch so we'll break into the two o'clock and again please don't talk to anyone about any of our evidence while your ass
02:58:51 two o'clock can please