Dr John Duncan Glover, electrical engineering expert, gives evidence about arc damage analysis of exhibits from Flat 16, the tripping of circuit breakers, and systematic elimination of electrical appliances as possible fire origins.
00:03:03 you
00:06:10 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we are going to hear some more expert evidence today from the person
00:06:21 expert evidence today from the person who's been instructed to look at the electrical aspects of this matter yes mr. Kinnear thank you sir medical dr. Duncan Glover
00:06:52 I swear to God I swear by Almighty God give that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the
00:07:06 the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:07:07 truth thank you very much totally sit down make yourself comfortable thank you sir
00:07:15 right yes mister thanks sir first of all would you mind confirming your name for the record yes my name is john duncan Glover
00:07:26 john duncan Glover dr. Glover thank you very much for attending to give evidence today first of all can you confirm that you provided a report dated the 15th of October of this year a damage assessment memorandum
00:07:38 this year a damage assessment memorandum also dated the 15th of October of this year and an addendum dated the 16th of November of this year is that right yes three separate documents for the avoidance of doubt although headed Draft
00:07:49 avoidance of doubt although headed Draft both your report and the damage assessment memorandum are in fact the final versions is that right that's correct do you confirm that the facts and matters set out in the report the
00:08:00 and matters set out in the report the damage assessment memorandum and the addendum are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes I do and is it right that you have provided the report the damage assessment memorandum and the
00:08:12 the damage assessment memorandum and the addendum in the same way as you would have provided those documents to a court yes sir thank you and finally does your report damage assessment memorandum and addendum set out your opinions on the
00:08:23 addendum set out your opinions on the matters relevant to this inquiry yes that's correct thank you dr. Glover the first issue I'd like to cover with you is your qualifications and first of all you've
00:08:34 qualifications and first of all you've set out those qualifications at section 1.3 of your report at page 4 and appendix D of that report and now I'm not going to go through all of that but I'd like to pick out some key points and
00:08:46 I'd like to pick out some key points and first of all is it right that you're a registered professional engineer in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts yes that's correct
00:08:52 correct and since 2004 you've been the president and principal engineer of failure electrical LLC yes sir and that you hold the BS degree in electrical engineering from the University of Massachusetts yes
00:09:05 from the University of Massachusetts yes any Amherst Massachusetts correct and that you also hold an MS degree in electrical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology yes that was in 1968 that's correct
00:09:16 yes that was in 1968 that's correct and in addition you were awarded a PhD in electrical engineering from MIT in 1971 yes sir is it right that you're a life senior member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic engineers yes sir and
00:09:29 and Electronic engineers yes sir and you're also a member of the National Fire Protection Association I am and that between 1977 and 1990 you're a tenured associate professor in the electrical and computer engineering
00:09:41 electrical and computer engineering department of Northeastern University yes I started out as an assistant professor but I worked myself up to a tenured associate professor thank you and finally you're also a principal
00:09:52 and finally you're also a principal engineer at exponent analysis Associates for a period of time yes for 14 years up to 1990 I was said exponent thank you now the next topic
00:10:04 exponent thank you now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is the purpose of your report now is it right that the purpose of the report the memorandum and the addendum is to assess the fire origin within an area that has already been established by other
00:10:15 already been established by other investigators retained by the inquiry yes that's correct and as set out in section 1.1 of your report at page 3 non electrical fire
00:10:26 report at page 3 non electrical fire origins are outside the scope of your expertise is that right yes I'm not an expert in non electrical fires only electrical fires and in relation to the identification of the area of origin of
00:10:38 identification of the area of origin of the initial fire within flat 16 as set out in section 2 of your report at pages 6 to 8 you've relied upon the analyses of professors Bisby and McDade is that
00:10:49 of professors Bisby and McDade is that right yes I have and accordingly is it right to say that you've taken for the purpose of your reports the memorandum and the addendum the area of origin to be the southeast end of the kitchen between the kitchen window and the edge
00:11:02 between the kitchen window and the edge of the cooker flat 16 that's correct and mindful of the limits of your expertise have you seen any other evidence which cast doubt over their identification of the area of origin no
00:11:14 identification of the area of origin no sir now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is your examination of the physical evidence now first of all and a set out and the damage assessment
00:11:25 and a set out and the damage assessment memorandum is it correct that you inspected 14 exhibits that have been retrieved from flat 16 I expected many more exhibits than that but there were 14 exhibits that are
00:11:37 but there were 14 exhibits that are special especially referred to in my damage assessment memo and in broad terms exhibit the exhibits you examined where a variety of electrical components and wiring is that of affair if broad
00:11:49 and wiring is that of affair if broad summary yes and is it right that your examination also relied upon a range of technologies including CT scans scanning
00:12:00 technologies including CT scans scanning electron microscopy and energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy yes as well as optical microscopy and the range of technologies you relied upon set out
00:12:13 of technologies you relied upon set out at section 1.1 of your memorandum is that right the damage assessment memo yes yes now the next topic I'd like to discuss with you is arc damage is it
00:12:24 discuss with you is arc damage is it fair to say that the principal object of examining the exhibits was to determine the existence of arc damage that was the principle I did have some other side
00:12:36 principle I did have some other side issues in terms of counting wire strands via the CT scan in looking at some wire connectors but the primary object was
00:12:47 connectors but the primary object was one of the primary objects was to evaluate the possibility of art damage for the 14 exhibits now in that respect could I ask you to turn to section 2.1
00:12:59 could I ask you to turn to section 2.1 of the damage assessment memorandum and it's up on the screen dr. Glover which may be easier than trying to plow through the various files now before we
00:13:10 through the various files now before we go into the the meat of that particular section would you agree that the basic starting point is that damage to electrical components that can recur as a result of electrical and non electrical events yes and that whether
00:13:24 electrical events yes and that whether an event was elect corn on electrical can indicate whether the damage was part of the cause or the result of a fire is that a fair summary two options he has two possibilities there and is it right
00:13:35 two possibilities there and is it right to say that electrical damage can indicate abnormal electrical activity they added wood yes that was capable of causing a fire it's capable of causing a fire and also
00:13:46 it's capable of causing a fire and also could be the result of a fire now before we turn to the characteristics of arc damage could you help us with an explanation of some basic technical terms that you refer to in your report
00:13:58 terms that you refer to in your report and other documents first of all and at its most basic what's a short circuit a short circuit is an abnormal electrical condition where the electrical current
00:14:11 condition where the electrical current becomes much higher than what is normally expected for the device that's carrying electrical current it's usually caused by an insulation failure a
00:14:24 caused by an insulation failure a failure of the electrical insulation that protects the wires and the components and normally you would have a very high current that could possibly
00:14:35 very high current that could possibly trip a circuit record caused a circuit breaker to operate or a fuse to blow thank you
00:14:41 thank you secondly what's a high current ground fault excuse me what's a high current ground fault okay that would be a
00:14:52 ground fault okay that would be a short-circuit that involves current flowing from an energized wire a live wire to a grounding wire or some metallic path to ground it gets out of
00:15:03 metallic path to ground it gets out of the normal path of electricity normally electricity will flow down the live wire from a consumer unit or a fuse box through an appliance or an electrical
00:15:14 through an appliance or an electrical device and then will return through a neutral wire but when you have a problem a short-circuit involving ground the current is diverted to another path
00:15:26 current is diverted to another path either the grounding wire or some electrical metallic path to ground thank you and finally in your report you refer occasionally to an overcurrent what's an
00:15:39 occasionally to an overcurrent what's an overcurrent it would be not as severe as a short-circuit but it would be higher than the normal load current that a device carries now in relation to a
00:15:51 device carries now in relation to a short-circuit or a high current ground fault can we say that the energy released by these event it's sufficient to melt metals thereby creating a gap of sorts yes especially
00:16:03 creating a gap of sorts yes especially if there is an arc involved where the electricity flows out of the wire through insulation or through an air gap and you have a luminous discharge
00:16:14 and you have a luminous discharge becomes very very hot temperatures in thousands of degrees that are capable of melting metals such as aluminum copper even steel and it's that con is that
00:16:25 even steel and it's that con is that temperature and it's consequences which is the primary consequences of what I've called the gap yes now you note that
00:16:36 called the gap yes now you note that abnormal electrical activity is often identifiable after a fire because it leads to arc damage it's not a fair of basic summary daddy is yes now again I
00:16:48 basic summary daddy is yes now again I turned earlier on to section 2.1 of your damage assessment memorandum and if I could ask you to look at the bottom of page 5 and there you've identified nine
00:17:00 page 5 and there you've identified nine of the characteristics of arc damage the ninth is overleaf at the bottom of that page now if we could just go through those first of all sharp demarcation
00:17:11 those first of all sharp demarcation between damaged and undamaged area of the energized copper conductor but again can you give us a brief explanation as to how that result is caused yes first I
00:17:23 to how that result is caused yes first I would say that these nine items are taken from a document entitled the National Fire Protection Association NFPA document that covers a guide to
00:17:35 NFPA document that covers a guide to fire explosions and there is a chapter on electricity in that document and this is excerpted these eight maybe there's a ninth one on the next page there are items are excerpted from the NFPA a
00:17:49 items are excerpted from the NFPA a guide and as I understand it this list of nine characteristics is not exhaustive it's illustrative only that's correct and again looking at the first
00:18:00 correct and again looking at the first characteristic the shot demarcation between the damaged and undamaged area of the energized copper conductor how does that happen yeah straightforward terms yes well as I
00:18:11 yeah straightforward terms yes well as I mentioned be in the area of the arc the temperatures can be very very high thousands of degrees centigrade Celsius but they're those temperatures are also
00:18:22 but they're those temperatures are also very localized for a very small area in the vicinity of the arc so that if you go
00:18:30 go perhaps a centimeter away from the arc location you will not have the melting in the Arctic and so that's when we call it a sharp line of demarcation between
00:18:43 it a sharp line of demarcation between the arced area where they melted or resolidify metal is observed and yet a short distance away centimeter or less
00:18:54 short distance away centimeter or less no damage and can we take it from the fact that the sharp demarcation is the first of these characteristics that it's the principal or most important characteristic of arc damage it's the
00:19:06 characteristic of arc damage it's the one that I look for it's the most readily recognisable characteristic and as we go through the list number two is the round smooth shape of artifact again
00:19:17 the round smooth shape of artifact again can you explain in some layman's terms what that indicates well very often when you melt a copper say from a wire that will result in a round what we call a
00:19:30 will result in a round what we call a copper beat both the copper strands on the wire if it happens to be a stranded wire will melt and then they will re solidify into a round copper bead and
00:19:43 solidify into a round copper bead and indeed later will come when we come to look at photos of certain exhibits we'll see illustrations of copper beading I think is unroyal yes number three is localized point of contact again that
00:19:54 localized point of contact again that flows from the explanation you've previously given as to what arc damage is I assume yes it's very localized and again number four identifiable correspond corresponding area of damage
00:20:05 correspond corresponding area of damage on the opposing neutral conductor or opposing grounded metal service again that flows from the elemental explanation you've given of arc damage and that's some may be a fundamental
00:20:17 and that's some may be a fundamental concept of electric circuits where when current flows it always flows in closed paths so normally current will flow from seiya
00:20:28 so normally current will flow from seiya consumer unit or a fuse box down a live wire and it will return after it passes through the load through a neutral wire back to the consumer unit so you have
00:20:40 back to the consumer unit so you have current flowing in a closed path when you have arcing the current gets out of the bag so to speak it flows through an abnormal path you may have a luminous
00:20:51 abnormal path you may have a luminous discharge the ark may be flowing through air or gas or or through or tracking through some damaged insulation that current still has to return to the
00:21:02 current still has to return to the consumer unit and that's why you will often see a corresponding identifiable area of arc damage on a return wire or some metallic path and again that point
00:21:15 some metallic path and again that point is relevant when we come to look at the various appliances and remnants of wiring that you examine for the purposes of the memorandum yes number 5 is
00:21:26 of the memorandum yes number 5 is locally in large grain size number 6 resolidify in respect of number 6 can you explain that for us in in layman's terms what that characteristic involves
00:21:38 terms what that characteristic involves okay normally I don't look it at 6 too much but and that's described in some of the appendices and documents
00:21:49 in some of the appendices and documents that are associated with the NFPA guide to fire explosions but when there is a melting of in this case we're talking about copper and then re
00:22:00 talking about copper and then re solidification that it tends that we tend to be waves on on the resolidify d is it a characteristic that's relevant to your analysis that airs in the report
00:22:13 to your analysis that airs in the report and the other documents I did not particularly look at any Risa Lydda fication waves looking at number seven copper drawing lines visible outside the damaged area again can you give us a
00:22:25 damaged area again can you give us a brief explanation as to why that's looked for as a characteristic yes as I mentioned when you're a short distance away from
00:22:33 away from the arc damage you you don't have our team if you will have the copper wires if they're stranded when copper wires are manufactured they will be
00:22:45 are manufactured they will be manufactured often there will be principal lines on these copper wires as manufactured and you can often see that close to the arc damage again then it
00:22:57 close to the arc damage again then it ties back to item one you get a fine line of demarcation so if you look at the wires that are close the copper wires that are close to the arc but not damaged you can often see these lines
00:23:09 damaged you can often see these lines that were part of the manufacturing process of being at the copper wires thank you and in respect of eight small beads and divots over a limited area again am i right in assuming that would
00:23:20 again am i right in assuming that would be a consequence of the course the arc damage the outlined when explaining the nature of arc damage previously yes and there are examples of that photographs that I have taken from the NFPA guide
00:23:32 that I have taken from the NFPA guide that show the beads copper beads and divots or noxious in the wires as a result of arc damage thank you and Paul
00:23:43 result of arc damage thank you and Paul if we could turn over the page to the top of page six there the ninth and final characteristic high internal porosity when viewed in cross section again can use a brief explanation of why
00:23:54 again can use a brief explanation of why that's looked for is as a characteristic of arc damage this is a more recent phenomena in addition to the current edition of the AFP a guide using I
00:24:05 edition of the AFP a guide using I believe the 17th edition and some researchers have looked at artbeads carpet beads that have arced and they have cross sectioned them in the
00:24:18 have cross sectioned them in the laboratory and found that when you have arc beads caused by arc damage that the cross-section of those beads will show a high porosity very porous as opposed to
00:24:31 high porosity very porous as opposed to fire damage we in NFPA guide they don't when they talk about a fire damage copper they call it a globule as opposed
00:24:42 copper they call it a globule as opposed to a bead still around looks very much the similar but when you when you cross-section a fire heated globule of copper you don't
00:24:53 fire heated globule of copper you don't get the high porosity that you get from an arc damaged bead Thank You dr. Glover now you raise though you Verta to the difference between the characteristics
00:25:04 difference between the characteristics of art damage and characteristics of fire damage and if we could ask you to turn to section 2.2 of your memorandum which is it jdg M triple zero
00:25:16 which is it jdg M triple zero triple zero three underscore double zero one zero and we can see in the top of
00:25:28 one zero and we can see in the top of that section you say copper conductors may be damaged before or during a fire by other than electrical means and often these effects are distinguishable from arc damage when exposed to fire or
00:25:41 arc damage when exposed to fire or glowing embers copper conductors may melt the melting temperature of pure copper is a thousand and eighty-five degrees centigrade or 984 degrees Fahrenheit first there is a blistering and distortion of the surface as shown in
00:25:53 distortion of the surface as shown in Figure eight and if Paul could D amplify that and then amplify figure eight for us and it may be fairly obvious dr.
00:26:04 us and it may be fairly obvious dr. Glover but see on the big screen behind your shoulder would you mind identifying for us the blistering and distortion to which you are referring to in the preceding paragraph for you yes sir again this is
00:26:15 paragraph for you yes sir again this is a figure that's taken right out of the NFPA guide to fire explosions that'll
00:26:26 NFPA guide to fire explosions that'll work thank you sir so you see instead of a copper wire that's been fire heated you can see the blistering and surface
00:26:39 you can see the blistering and surface deformations these are copper that is just beginning to see the effects of high fire heated copper blistering along
00:26:52 high fire heated copper blistering along the surface of the capri conductor Thank You dr. Glover now after blistering and distortion what happens next and then with additional
00:27:03 happens next and then with additional fire heating you will get what is called a thinning of the wires the wires diameter will become thinning that some
00:27:14 diameter will become thinning that some call sometimes called necking and you also see the formation we we don't call them beads we call them globules but they're very similar they're round
00:27:26 they're very similar they're round globules of of copper that has melted you can see them in the figure here yes and I think you've pulled first of all amplifies figure 9 and then if you could
00:27:38 amplifies figure 9 and then if you could identify the globules for us lobule here yes it's a round art effect of copper that has melted in the resolidify and you can also see the thinning of the
00:27:51 you can also see the thinning of the copper wire in close to that globule as opposed to back further where the wire maintains its original diameter Thank You dr. Glover now looking at how you've
00:28:03 You dr. Glover now looking at how you've summarized the differences between electrical damage and non electrical damage is it fair say that the most important characteristic of non electrical fire damage is that in contrast to arc damage the damage is
00:28:15 contrast to arc damage the damage is spread over a larger area and there's there's no sharp line of demarcation is that a fair if general summary that's correct if you can imagine a fire attacking a copper wire wouldn't be as
00:28:27 attacking a copper wire wouldn't be as localized ezza as an arc which is very localized now when you've determined that electrical arc damage has occurred to a segment of copper wire is it right that your next step is to identify the
00:28:40 that your next step is to identify the origin of the segment by determining whether the following features of the wire match features a each possible location of origin such as strands yes right now the first stage of that
00:28:53 right now the first stage of that appears to be on the base of your report as simple sub counting of the number of strands is that right that's yes and then the next stage appears to be measuring the diameter of those strands
00:29:04 measuring the diameter of those strands yes sir now in addition to examining the exhibits themselves for physical damage is it right that you've also looked at other sources of evidence that helped you yes and first and foremost you've
00:29:17 you yes and first and foremost you've looked at the witness evidence of the former occupants of flat 16 is that right I have and you've also looked at what evidence can be deduced from The Associated circuit breakers and the fuse box is that right yes I call it the
00:29:29 box is that right yes I call it the consumer unit but that would be the fuse box and you've also looked at whether the fuse in a relevant appliance or devices plug is intact or blown yes the
00:29:41 devices plug is intact or blown yes the fuses were looked at and examined for the various appliances to determine where they were intact as you say or blow and finally you've looked at the extent and pattern of any heat damage to
00:29:52 extent and pattern of any heat damage to a particular appliance or or device yes to all of the devices that were in the area of fire origin that were established by the other investigators professor Bisbee and Nick Davis thank
00:30:05 professor Bisbee and Nick Davis thank you now dr. Glover when we come on to it we're going to have much discussion of the relevant circuit breakers and the main switch on the fuse box itself but before we come on to that can you help
00:30:16 before we come on to that can you help us that in relation to the fuse box consumer unit why is it relevant whether a particular circuit breaker was found in the off position or not now there's a
00:30:30 in the off position or not now there's a very interesting event that occurred that the occupant of the flat 16 mr. kabiri I hope that I'm pronouncing that
00:30:41 kabiri I hope that I'm pronouncing that correctly before he vacated the apartment he turned off the main switch at the consumer unit so that any device that was any other device at that
00:30:54 that was any other device at that consumer unit that was found in the off position would have had to have operated before mr. Cady turned off the main switch when he turns off the main switch
00:31:05 switch when he turns off the main switch the consumer unit is now de-energized and there's no way that a circuit breaker could operate automatically after he does that
00:31:16 after he does that and so it provides us with a snapshot of the circuits that had been tripped before the fuse box was turned off and that's its importance is that a summary
00:31:27 that's its importance is that a summary that's correct and when you say the word tripped I mean that would be a circuit breaker that operates to the off position automatically we say in the the engineering lingo that that means the
00:31:39 engineering lingo that that means the circuit breaker tripped thank you and finally in relation to setting out the basics in Section ten point three of your report and we don't need to go to it and unless you want to
00:31:50 it and unless you want to you refer to evidence of quotes other abnormal electrical activity close quotes which appears to be above evidence above and beyond arc damage what evidence are you referring to here
00:32:01 what evidence are you referring to here what particular class of evidence are you thinking of here I'm sorry are we in my record of damage assessment memo it's in your reports at section ten point three of your report it's at page 39 and
00:32:14 three of your report it's at page 39 and the reference is jdg are trouble zero trouble zero one underscore double zero three nine and it's point three so
00:32:31 three nine and it's point three so there's no evidence of arc damage or other abnormal electrical activity now other abnormal do you have it there on the screen dr. Glover it's easy if you
00:32:44 the screen dr. Glover it's easy if you look at it on the screen I think okay and you see there ten point three yes sir and you refer there to no evidence of in subparagraph 3 you said there's no evidence of arc damage or other abnormal
00:32:56 evidence of arc damage or other abnormal electrical activity can you help us it's just a general question what other abnormal electrical activity are you referring to there above and beyond evidence of arc damage the main the main
00:33:10 evidence of arc damage the main the main thing is is the arc damaged the in this case copper wires that have melted in locations than had determined to be arc damaged as opposed to fire damaged there
00:33:22 damaged as opposed to fire damaged there are other abnormal electrical events if you have for example printed circuit boards
00:33:28 boards in the device you could look at components on the board capacitors or other electrical components and look for arc damage or other types of abnormal
00:33:40 arc damage or other types of abnormal electrical activity perhaps for example that if the capacitor is punctured that there was an internal event that caused a puncture that you could you could observe in that component and you could
00:33:52 observe in that component and you could also look for something called electrical tracking along a printed circuit board so it would be a matter of examining the electrical components in addition to the wires
00:34:04 addition to the wires that's very clear thank you they can save you leaning forward thank you dr.
00:34:18 save you leaning forward thank you dr. Kovac thank you the next topic I'd like to come on to is evidence of electrical arc damage itself and so will now turn to the principal points of the analysis which you've summarized in the
00:34:29 which you've summarized in the memorandum now starting at the outset correct me if I'm wrong but your essential conclusion is that only two of the exhibits that you examined showed
00:34:41 the exhibits that you examined showed evidence of a electrical arc damaged is that correct yes they're two exhibits MJS one in jdg one that I concluded suffered arc damage all of the other the
00:34:53 suffered arc damage all of the other the remaining twelve exhibits did not suffer marked image thank you now turning to exhibit MJS one starting with the most basic question what is MJ s 1 ok MJ s 1
00:35:08 basic question what is MJ s 1 ok MJ s 1 is first I'll go to it show perhaps I can just show a photograph of it yeah that's going to be the probably the
00:35:21 that's going to be the probably the easiest reference is that one which should just come up on the screen and in my damage assessment memo you will see MJ s 1 which are basically two copper
00:35:32 MJ s 1 which are basically two copper wires there is one segment that is approximately 10 centimeters in length there is a scale there the yellow scale that shows one of the wire segments
00:35:44 that shows one of the wire segments there is a separate wire segment but the interesting one is the 10 centimeter length wire that has a fused area what I mean by fused is there there is melted
00:35:58 mean by fused is there there is melted copper between the two wires that is to be examined and once I examined that I determined that it was arc damaged no stopping there my time for you to do
00:36:10 stopping there my time for you to do this in the old-fashioned way and pointing on the big screen above you can you just identify for all of us the area which you consider to be fused yes so here is this 10 centimeter length of
00:36:23 here is this 10 centimeter length of approximately 10 cm it length of two wires both of them are stranded by the way each each Y has 24 strands in it but approximately one and a half centimeters
00:36:34 approximately one and a half centimeters from this end there is an area it's kind of blurry here so there will be other microscopic folders that will show the fused area there is that the two wires are affixed to each other and there is
00:36:47 are affixed to each other and there is melted and then resolidify copper that fused fuses the two wires together thank you
00:36:54 you apologies for asking you to get up and down but sometimes it's easier just to point on the screen now can you remember from where mgs1 was recovered with in flat 16 yes it was recovered in one of
00:37:10 flat 16 yes it was recovered in one of the bedrooms and it was recovered some 27 days after the 14 June 2017 fire now looking at the composition of mgs1
00:37:22 looking at the composition of mgs1 itself
00:37:23 itself you've advert it to some of this but you described as consisting of two stranded copper wire segments of approximately 10 11 centimeters length with a separate stranded copper wire segment
00:37:35 stranded copper wire segment approximately 5 centimeters in length is that a fair summary yes and that's shown in the photo here you know on the screen now am i right in saying that
00:37:47 now am i right in saying that approximately fifteen millimeters from the end of one segment there's the fused area of three millimeters in length to which you've just referred yes 15 millimeters or one and a half centimeters away from the right end is shown in this this screen
00:38:00 right end is shown in this this screen and the precise dimensions of the fused area is three millimeters or there abouts the the width of the fused area yes and can we now turn to exhibit JD g1
00:38:13 yes and can we now turn to exhibit JD g1 now in respect of that can you give us a basic explanation what is JD g1 first of all okay and you've gone to figure a -
00:38:26 all okay and you've gone to figure a - yeah actually that was this out of my report or out of my damage assessment this is the report okay so again we have
00:38:39 this is the report okay so again we have copper wires and there's a close-up of it and looking at its composition is it
00:38:50 it and looking at its composition is it right say that it consists of stranded copper wire segments of approximately four centimeters in length there's actually two wires on the outside and
00:39:03 actually two wires on the outside and there are segments of wire the third wire in between and then there is a cross wire here with a now we'll call you can see a copper bead we solidified
00:39:14 you can see a copper bead we solidified copper bead at one end or jdg one and it's the site of the copper bead is that the evidence of arc damage upon which you rely it is yes thank you right now
00:39:27 you rely it is yes thank you right now can I turn to the question of strand counts in respect of both these exhibits first of all am i right and understanding you've measured both the strand count and the diameter of both of
00:39:38 strand count and the diameter of both of these exhibits yes and if I ask you to turn to Section four point four of your report and the penultimate paragraph on
00:39:49 report and the penultimate paragraph on page 20 of your report for the reference you have but is jdg are triple zero triple zero one underscore double zero
00:40:01 triple zero one underscore double zero two zero and I think what you set out there in the penultimate and final
00:40:13 there in the penultimate and final paragraph of the relevant dimensions of strand count first of all and the dimensions of the two exhibits is that right are you referring to the last paragraph on page 20 the penultimate
00:40:26 paragraph on page 20 the penultimate first filling out an extra last yes both MJS one which we looked at previously and now jdg one both of them each wire
00:40:39 and now jdg one both of them each wire in those two exhibits have each one has 24 strands those are 24 stranded wires we also measured the wire different diameter to different ways using
00:40:51 diameter to different ways using calipers in the laboratory and using the caliper tool at the CT scanner at you say nakhon I say Nikon nothing Tring and we measured the the wire diameter two
00:41:05 we measured the the wire diameter two ways and there's some variability in diameter depending on how tight you push your calipers against the copper or how you set the cursor on the CT caliper
00:41:18 you set the cursor on the CT caliper tool but we were measuring diameters approximately 0.16 up to point one eight millimeters for not only MJS one but JD
00:41:31 millimeters for not only MJS one but JD g one thank you and turning now to the final paragraph on that page and you say as noted in section 8 point to exhibit m JD 38 the medium-sized freezer includes
00:41:42 JD 38 the medium-sized freezer includes was with 24 strands in strand I am at a point 1 6 and point 1 8 meters also is note in section 12 point 9 exhibits bps 3 Mbps for components of the fridge
00:41:53 3 Mbps for components of the fridge freezer include wires with 24 strands and strand imma turn 16 and point 18 meters
00:42:00 meters can you help us as to why you've set out that information there while you consider it to be relevant well question is where did we find wires with 24 strands as I said MJS one was found in
00:42:14 strands as I said MJS one was found in lying on the floor in the bedroom some 27 days after the fire and jdg one by the way was found inside I found that in my April 1 of my April inspections at
00:42:26 in my April 1 of my April inspections at bureau veritas down in Berman's the area of London that was found I found that inside of the medium-sized freezer okay so now I was was interested in where you
00:42:39 so now I was was interested in where you might find other wires particularly in the area of fire arjen within flat 16 that have 24 strands like these two art
00:42:50 that have 24 strands like these two art damage exhibits and I find them in two locations I found them in the medium sized freezer for example the power supply cord or what you might call the main supply flex as well as other wires
00:43:03 main supply flex as well as other wires within the medium sized freezer and I also found 24 strand wires within the fridge freezer of flat 16 thank you now the next topic I'm going to come on
00:43:16 now the next topic I'm going to come on to is the consumer unit and the circuit breakers now if I could ask Paul to bring up a photograph which is at jdg our trouble zero double zero one six
00:43:30 our trouble zero double zero one six underscore triple zero one dr. Glover if I could I support to turn the page
00:43:43 and dr. Glover it's probably easy if I ask you to talk us through these photographs and you can identify those features which you consider to be pertinent first of all what does figure
00:43:56 pertinent first of all what does figure a 1 - 1 show us yes both of these figures a 1 wanna show the consumer unit
00:44:09 figures a 1 wanna show the consumer unit you might call it the fuse box from flat 60 these are not my photos these are photos that I have that were in that were in the file and on the left side is
00:44:24 were in the file and on the left side is the main switch this red switch here and that's the switch that mr. Cooby D turned off as he vacated flat 16 on the night of the fire and then there are
00:44:37 night of the fire and then there are various circuit breakers to the right of the main switch there a better photographs as we move on moved on but two of them in particular were found in
00:44:48 two of them in particular were found in the off position two of these circuit breakers one was the circuit breaker for what we call circuit seven which fed the
00:44:59 what we call circuit seven which fed the sockets in the kitchen of flat 16 well there would be better photos of that circuit seven is just to the right of this what we call an RCC B circuit
00:45:11 this what we call an RCC B circuit breaker yes from the right hand side yes the last one is circuit eight which was not off circuit eight was in the on
00:45:23 not off circuit eight was in the on position the other second circuit breaker that was found in the off position was just to the left of the circuit seven breaker and that is a special breaker it's called an R C CB a
00:45:37 special breaker it's called an R C CB a residual current circuit breaker it's the design to detect small ground currents that out of the normal path of flow of
00:45:49 out of the normal path of flow of electricity okay now if I can take a step back and just ask you a question about circuit seven you mentioned that it serves these sockets in the kitchen
00:46:00 it serves these sockets in the kitchen is it right to say that the pertinent feature of circuit seven for our purposes is that was the circuit upon which the large food freezer was plugged into what the large fridge freezer was
00:46:15 into what the large fridge freezer was plugged into yes it was the fridge freezer was plugged into circuits seven within the kitchen a flat 16 okay and if I can ask you now to go to probably over
00:46:29 I can ask you now to go to probably over the page is probably easier now again the top photograph figure a 1/3 gives a
00:46:40 the top photograph figure a 1/3 gives a close-up shot of the main switch in the off position is that right that's correct that's the red one thank you and if we can remove that pool and then if we can amplify figure a one point a one
00:46:53 we can amplify figure a one point a one - four and we see the second in from the right-hand side is the circuit breaker for circuit seven is that right yes and it's in the off position yeah and again moving leftwards
00:47:06 yeah and again moving leftwards we see the are CCB also in the off position correct thank you now Paul if we can put those photographs down and if I may ask you Paul nurse turn to section
00:47:19 I may ask you Paul nurse turn to section three point four of dr. Glover's report which is at jdg are trouble zero double zero one underscore zero one zero
00:47:34 and it's section 3.4 which at the bottom of that page and Paul could ask you to amplify that under the heading circuit breaker operation timing sequence you
00:47:46 breaker operation timing sequence you say this it is most likely the two circuit breakers six and seventh circuit breakers to the right of the main switch found in the off position operated automatically tripped as a result of a
00:47:58 automatically tripped as a result of a short-circuit over current rather than being manually operated to the off position as follows first is the Kabaddi stated that he turned off the main read
00:48:09 stated that he turned off the main read electricity switch his and Paul the vehement interview statements do not state that he turned off any other circuit breaker second there is no record that any fire brigade personnel
00:48:21 record that any fire brigade personnel far investigator or other person manually turned off these two circuit breakers and third evidence of arc damages two exhibits mgs1 and j DG one provides an indication
00:48:34 mgs1 and j DG one provides an indication of a short circuit sufficient to trip the 32 amps MCB for circuit number seven from paul if he can amplify the next paragraph for me and after mr. Abady
00:48:47 paragraph for me and after mr. Abady turned off the main switch all electrical circuits in flat 16 were disconnected from the outlet from the electric utility power source no circuit breaker could have tripped
00:48:58 no circuit breaker could have tripped after the main switch was turned off but that is both of the circuit breakers that tripped had to have tripped off during the initiation or early stages of the fire before mr. Kirby D turned off
00:49:11 the fire before mr. Kirby D turned off the main switch now stopping there does that remain your view yes and that's a key element of my conclusions that was a clue that was very important to me that
00:49:23 clue that was very important to me that we have two circuit breakers that tripped early on in the fire or in the initiation of the fire and those would provide a clue to find out what caused
00:49:34 provide a clue to find out what caused those circuit breakers to trip and would lead me to the fire origin now flowing from that you set out on page 11
00:49:46 from that you set out on page 11 the two possible sequences for the tripping of the two circuit breakers now if you could just talk us through first of all sequence one okay so we got two
00:49:57 of all sequence one okay so we got two strip circuit breakers TRC CD and circuit seven for the kitchen and they could have both tripped simultaneously
00:50:08 could have both tripped simultaneously for one event in the kitchen affecting circuit seven a short-circuit that would involve a live wire shorting to ground
00:50:20 involve a live wire shorting to ground or arcing to ground it would have to involve ground or some metallic path to ground in order for the RC CB circuit breaker to trip simultaneously with the
00:50:33 breaker to trip simultaneously with the circuit breaker for circuit seven so that's option one you could have one event affecting circuit seven those are the sockets in the kitchen and devices
00:50:44 the sockets in the kitchen and devices connected to those sockets that trip to both breakers at the same time thank you so and then compare and contrast sequence two could you talk us through the hypothesis there a second option is
00:50:55 the hypothesis there a second option is you would first have and I'm going to say first would be a short-circuit in circuit seven that did not involve ground and involved a live wire arcing
00:51:06 ground and involved a live wire arcing to the neutral wire not to a ground path so that would not trip the RCC B that's only looking at at ground then well sorry dr. klevor interrupted you so that
00:51:17 sorry dr. klevor interrupted you so that would be the first event you could have a short circuit again in in the kitchen circuits seven affecting the sockets in the kitchen that did not involve ground
00:51:29 the kitchen that did not involve ground that would cause the circuit seven MCB to trip but then how does the second breaker the RCC B trip that would be a later event on now circuit seven is
00:51:41 later event on now circuit seven is de-energized the RCC B is looking at two circuits circuits seven and circuit eight so circuit seven is now D energized so the second event would
00:51:52 energized so the second event would happen in circuit eight circuit eight are the flat sock it's the sockets in the remaining portion of the flat not involving the kitchen so that would be the second one
00:52:04 kitchen so that would be the second one and I do say that that our CCB would have to have a cured after circuit seven trips it could not happen before I mean flowing from that point off these
00:52:16 I mean flowing from that point off these two hypotheses which one do you consider to be more likely well at this point
00:52:25 I'd have to fast forward to other evidence that I've looked at the it's it's more likely now that I've looked at all of the evidence that there were two separate events that circuits seven
00:52:36 separate events that circuits seven tripped first for a align to neutral fault affecting that circuit or some device connected to circuit seven in the kitchen and then the second event
00:52:47 kitchen and then the second event occurred at a later time that's my opinion now at this point in the report I just leave the two options there are two possibilities so cutting to the chase
00:52:58 chase you consider sequence two to be more likely I do yes now having regards the evidence in the final paragraph of page 11 of your reports are staying on that
00:53:09 11 of your reports are staying on that page you say this based on the above analysis of the timing and sequencing of the two circuit breakers that tripped it is probable that the far origin is one
00:53:20 is probable that the far origin is one within the area of fire origin and two at the electrical component that cause the circuit breaker for circuit number seven to trip now first of all does that remain your view it does yes I'm putting
00:53:35 remain your view it does yes I'm putting it somewhat differently and to what extent does identifying the circuit breakers which did not trip provide useful evidence in ruling out certain appliances in relation to origin okay
00:53:50 appliances in relation to origin okay could you repeat of course now looking at the alternative analysis to what extent does looking at the circuit breakers which did not trip help you in identifying origin well that would be
00:54:03 identifying origin well that would be looking at the circuit breakers that did not trip it would be very helpful to rule out items as a probe both fire origin just to give you an example there's a cooker in the kitchen
00:54:17 example there's a cooker in the kitchen the cooker is adjacent to the fridge freezer we may look at that later and that cooker was supplied by a dedicated circuit actually circuit
00:54:28 dedicated circuit actually circuit number one so the cooker in the kitchen was not supplied by circuit seven so that would allow me just from that along with many other things at pieces of evidence to rule out the cooker as a
00:54:40 evidence to rule out the cooker as a probable fire origin and then you could go on to other devices that were not connected to circuit seven they could also be ruled out doctor over that's useful we will come on to the individual
00:54:51 useful we will come on to the individual appliances and as you say but that point becomes more vividly Illustrated there now there's before we leave the issue of the consumer units and circuit breakers one points arisen in relation to which
00:55:02 one points arisen in relation to which it would be very useful to have your help and guidance and that's understanding the role of circuit breakers in the prevention of an electrical fire now first of all can you
00:55:13 electrical fire now first of all can you help us with the most basic question what's the purpose of a circuit breaker it is a safety device and be more specific about it is the aim to prevent
00:55:24 specific about it is the aim to prevent I think what you described elsewhere is a violent event or alternatively is it to cut the violent event or is it both it is both you would it would be hope would be optimistic or you would hope
00:55:38 would be optimistic or you would hope that a circuit breaker would trip when there is an abnormal electrical event a short circuit or an overload and you would hope that it would trip before a fire occurs but that's not always the
00:55:51 fire occurs but that's not always the case
00:55:51 case one question that's arisen that your fuse would be sort on is whether is there a reason why the circuit breakers
00:56:02 there a reason why the circuit breakers did not were not able to prevent the fire starting in the first place
00:56:10 circuit breakers take time they have to detect the short-circuit and then after they detect the short-circuit it takes time for them to open their context to
00:56:21 time for them to open their context to de-energize 2dg energize the circuit so there is a time delay involved and again if the short-circuit is not too violent or doesn't immediately ignite
00:56:34 or doesn't immediately ignite combustibles in the area of the short-circuit then the circuit breaker is successful in d energizing the circuit before a fire however is possible that if you have combustibles
00:56:47 possible that if you have combustibles in proximity to the short circuit to the arcing that those would ignite very quickly before the circuit breaker or a fuse has an opportunity to de energize
00:56:59 fuse has an opportunity to de energize the circuit I don't know whether you're able to express a view on this given what you've seen but are you able to help us to whether you think the circuit breaker operated sufficiently quickly
00:57:10 breaker operated sufficiently quickly here or insufficiently quickly I didn't notice any defects in the circuit breaker you did its job but circuit breakers are not perfect they can't
00:57:22 breakers are not perfect they can't prep' and predict a fire they have to wait until the short circuit occurs until the arcing Acuras until is enough over current sufficient to trip the
00:57:34 over current sufficient to trip the breaker do you have any cause to believe there was any fault or defect of any sort in the consumer box the consumer unit Roland no I have no reason to have
00:57:45 unit Roland no I have no reason to have see any defects in the consumer unit thank you
00:57:49 thank you dr. klevor I now want to turn on to the analysis you conducted of the various electrical appliances and other electrical items and the first electrical appliance I'd be grateful for your help in relation to is the kitchen
00:58:02 your help in relation to is the kitchen extractor fan and for that purpose first of all it probably be useful if Paul you could draw up section eleven point seven of ducted Glover's report now first of
00:58:14 of ducted Glover's report now first of all dr. Glover that sets out the summary of your views in relation to the examination of the extractor fan is that yes now can you confirm whether the
00:58:27 yes now can you confirm whether the extractor fan formed part of circuit seven or not yes the extractor fan it's located in the window on the east side of the kitchen and the the wires that
00:58:38 of the kitchen and the the wires that supply the extractor fan come from circuit seven is a spur that taps off of a socket behind the fridge freezer that's supplies power to the extractor fan Thank You Nomo Royce an
00:58:50 fan Thank You Nomo Royce an understanding you examined five exhibits originally forming part of that fan for the purposes of your report five exhibits this is all related to the
00:59:01 exhibits this is all related to the extractor fan all relate six extractor fan can you remember now I'd have to count them don't worry yes or no we've certainly examined components and wiring
00:59:13 certainly examined components and wiring relation to the extractor fan I examined all the exhibits that were associated with the extractor fan and they were in different categories the the fan motor for example is MJS 6 there was debris
00:59:26 for example is MJS 6 there was debris found in the window ugly below the extractor fan various other items were collected and I examined all of them that's useful and if we look at 11.7 itself you say there's the
00:59:39 11.7 itself you say there's the following observations supports our fire origin an extractor fan a flat 16 warm most of the components are missing from the control board including a rectangular shaped capacitor from the
00:59:50 rectangular shaped capacitor from the power supply section of the control board can you help us why does that support a fire origin of extractor fan it's to the lay reader it looks neutral at best sometimes when you have a fire
01:00:03 at best sometimes when you have a fire that initiates on a control board a printed circuit board you will see components missing and you will also see perhaps non-uniform fire damage one
01:00:17 perhaps non-uniform fire damage one section of that control board that printed circuit board would be more heavily fire damaged than another section and so that's the type of things you look for missing components if you
01:00:30 you look for missing components if you have missing components you have no way to evaluate them for abnormal electrical activity for example you have a capacitor where the there's been an internal short-circuit
01:00:41 there's been an internal short-circuit within the capacitor and it's been a catastrophic failure punctures the enclosure of the capacitor you would only be able to determine that if you had the capacitor to examine so when you
01:00:53 had the capacitor to examine so when you have missing components or if you have non-uniform fire damage that would be a possibility of a fire origin there understood now you think you'll want to say conversely the following
01:01:06 say conversely the following observations do not support a fire origin at either the extractor fan all the wiring and switches from the spur to the extractor fan one no arc damage or abnormal electrical activity as observed
01:01:17 abnormal electrical activity as observed on any of the following exhibits related to the extractor fan and you referred earlier on to mgs six in particular to the short circuit overload that caused the circuit break if a circuit number
01:01:29 the circuit break if a circuit number seven kitchen and flat 16 to trip on the night of the fire did not occur in the extractor fan or any wire or electric electronic component downstream of the isolator
01:01:40 component downstream of the isolator switch if it had the three amp fuse in the isolator switch would have blown more quickly than the circuit breaker which did not occur and does that remain your view there yes that's a long
01:01:52 your view there yes that's a long sentence but that was actually a key component of my analysis for the extractor fan the extractor fan is protected by a fuse that's located below
01:02:05 protected by a fuse that's located below the extractor fan extractor fan itself is in the window but the wires run through an isolator switch and within that isolator switch that feeds the extractor fan there is a 3 ampere fuse
01:02:18 extractor fan there is a 3 ampere fuse and earlier on in my report I discuss the timing of fuses versus circuit breakers and I show that the 3 amp fuse
01:02:30 breakers and I show that the 3 amp fuse will always blow more quickly than the 32 amp circuit breaker for circuits 7 so that this is why I one of the main reasons I ruled out the extractor fan
01:02:41 reasons I ruled out the extractor fan just because that 3 ampere fuse which always would have tripped first would have blown first before the 32 amp circuit breaker first for circuit seven was not blown and so that was a key
01:02:53 was not blown and so that was a key element of my analysis for the extractor fit that's clear thank you and looking at subparagraph 3 you say the arc damaged exhibits mgs1 and JD G Warren are not associated with the extractor
01:03:06 are not associated with the extractor fan from flat 16 what any of the wiring associated with that extractor fan and again you were able to say that because it examined first of all the number of strands within the wires that form part
01:03:18 strands within the wires that form part of mgs1 and JTG one and they weren't the type of wiring you find or you did find in relation to the extractor fan yes so we looked by the way at an exemplar extractor fan from flat 13 the fire was
01:03:31 extractor fan from flat 13 the fire was in flat 16 but one of them elements one of the items of exhibits that I looked at was an exemplar fan from flat 13 and then we looked at the remains of the
01:03:43 then we looked at the remains of the extractor fan from flat 16 we looked at all the wires in both of those exhibits we counted the strands and we found I found as well as my other investigators
01:03:55 found as well as my other investigators no wires associated with a with the extractor fan that had 24 strands remember those two art damaged exhibits MJ s 1 and J dg1
01:04:07 MJ s 1 and J dg1 both have 24 strands those who are not associated with the extractor fan thank you and then the final point you set out at subparagraph 4 and then you set out the basic point that newer the
01:04:19 the basic point that newer the manufacturer of the fan received no report confirming that a co fancy fancy fantasy was the source of a fire and that's the your final observation there the absence of previous instance of fire
01:04:32 the absence of previous instance of fire correct as you see they knew air is the company that manufactures the extractor fan you sake a fancy yfa n and they had
01:04:43 fan you sake a fancy yfa n and they had sold some 113 thousand of them since I believe 2013 none of which there were no reported fires for any of those
01:04:54 and just to help us what weight do you attach to the absence of previous incidents come generally compared to the specific analyses set out in some paragraphs 1 2 3 it's just another key
01:05:10 paragraphs 1 2 3 it's just another key element I think when you look at the possibility of a component having failed it's important to look at the history of failures of the component the history of
01:05:23 failures of the component the history of any fires the history of any recalls the history of any legal suits to see if there had been any prior incidents so that is a component I don't know if I
01:05:34 that is a component I don't know if I attached more weight to that than then the actual evidence that I did look at it's simply a relevant factor just relative yes sir it's 11 o'clock we've been going for an hour yeah and with
01:05:45 been going for an hour yeah and with that being in place for a brief break it's convenient to you I take it it is yes thank yes well dr. Glover we we have a short break roughly once an hour so we're going to take one now I have to
01:05:57 we're going to take one now I have to ask you not to talk about your evidence while you're out of the room if you don't mind we'll come back at 10 past 11:00 and if you go to the our show she'll look after you thank you sir thank you very much
01:06:20 right ten past eleven please
01:07:03 you
01:18:55 right dr. claman ready to carry on thank you yes dr. Glover welcome back we were covering in the this particular part of the examination analysis of the
01:19:06 the examination analysis of the electrical appliances and relevant electrical items in the kitchen the next one I want to talk to is the cooker which I think you were adverting to earlier on in the evidence first
01:19:17 earlier on in the evidence first question to be clear the cooker form was serviced by circuit seven is that right the cooker was sure by circuit one body circuit one and if we could just
01:19:29 circuit one and if we could just identify where the cooker was Paul if you could bring up figure two at jdg ah
01:19:37 trouble zero trouble zero one underscore trouble zero eight and just so that we
01:19:48 trouble zero eight and just so that we can orientate ourselves that is a sketch plan produced by mr. Kapadia upon which you relied is that right yes this is mr. the beam is bigger yes and if we look at
01:19:59 the beam is bigger yes and if we look at the top left hand side we see mop and bucket then a which is the large fridge freezer then next to it is B which is partially obscured by the four rings
01:20:10 partially obscured by the four rings correct and the the B there is the cooker it is and as you said correctly its served by circuit one yes and if we remove that and actually Paul if I could
01:20:23 remove that and actually Paul if I could ask you to go to section five point five of dr. Glover's report which is at page 23 of that report and if you could
01:20:34 23 of that report and if you could amplify five point five here you set out summary of your observations the following observations do not support a fire origin at the cooker of circuit number one cooker in flat sixteen one
01:20:47 number one cooker in flat sixteen one the cooker is supplied by circuit number one at the consumer unit in flat sixteen the circuit breaker for circuit number one was found in the on position confirming that there was no short circuit or over current sufficient to
01:20:59 circuit or over current sufficient to trip the thirstier and breaker for the cooker circuit to the circuit breakers that did trip at the time of the fire the circuit break of a circuit number kitchen and the RCB circuit breaker for
01:21:11 kitchen and the RCB circuit breaker for the RCD protected circuits are unrelated to the cooker circuit three ark damaged exhibits mgs1 and JD g1 are not associated with the cooker circuit
01:21:22 associated with the cooker circuit wiring now they're the first three are though those are those the principal observations upon which you are alive first of all well those are the first
01:21:33 first of all well those are the first three or four of eight observations yet what I was talking to all those the principal ones I know there are others that follow that though there's the primary matters you rely upon I would point to six the possibility of this
01:21:45 point to six the possibility of this might been it been a someone was cooking on top of the cooktop and that a fire could have started from non electrical means by cooking oil or something but I
01:21:57 means by cooking oil or something but I did examine the switches for the four hops on the cooktop and found that those were all in the off position verifying that in my opinion there was no cooking
01:22:10 that in my opinion there was no cooking going on on the night of the fire there were also no cooking pans found on top of the cooktop thank you and looking at eight you say there's only superficial heat fire damage to the front sides and
01:22:21 heat fire damage to the front sides and rear the cooker to the lay reader that looks like an important feature is that a fair observation to make yes it is there's very little there's no arc
01:22:32 there's very little there's no arc damage to the wires that supply the cooker located behind the cooker and you look at the sides in the front the Kokura around fire damaged only there's
01:22:46 Kokura around fire damaged only there's also no foodstuffs found in in the cooker that was in the oven for example would you expect foodstuffs to have survived a fire they would you have expected foodstuffs to have survived the
01:22:59 expected foodstuffs to have survived the fire in the oven possibly yes thank you now now turning to new and separate appliance that's the breadmaker the entered and you deal with this at section 10 of your report which is at
01:23:12 section 10 of your report which is at pages 37 to 39 and Paul caused you to turn to page 39 in particular
01:23:18 now just to get some context dr. Glover first of all the breadmaker was found on the kitchen floor next the larger fridge freezer is that right yes and that you set up your conclusions
01:23:29 yes and that you set up your conclusions here at paragraph ten point three and the following observations do not support a fire origin a flatbread made from flat 16 and first of all mr. Kapadia states that the bread maker was not plugged in miss a for work he states
01:23:42 not plugged in miss a for work he states that she never used the bread maker and never saw it used that - there's no evidence that the bread maker had been plugged into any socket at the time of the fire and three there is no evidence of arc damage or other abnormal
01:23:53 of arc damage or other abnormal electrical activity - the bread maker power supply cord main supply flex in tunnel wiring or heating coil for exhibits mgs1 and JD g1 are not
01:24:06 exhibits mgs1 and JD g1 are not consistent with the bread maker pass by cord and wiring fifthly the three wires the bread maker power supply cord remain flexible they're not brittle not friable now stopping there can you help us it's
01:24:19 stopping there can you help us it's probably a question that goes to the obvious but why is the absence of brittle or friable material a useful consideration or relevant consideration to have regard to here yes well I tried
01:24:36 to have regard to here yes well I tried to imagine this scenario where this bread maker would have been plugged in and since its location is adjacent to the fridge freezer the likely socket if
01:24:47 the fridge freezer the likely socket if it had been plugged in would have been a socket then behind the fridge freezer that would be the closest to where the bread maker was found on the day of the fire now when you look at the other
01:24:59 fire now when you look at the other wires that were found behind the fridge freezer those were quite friable quite brittle segments of wires that had been broken off as a result of fire heat
01:25:12 broken off as a result of fire heat natok damage but fire heat I did not see that for the bread maker the power supply cord the main supply flex was intact including the plug and the
01:25:24 intact including the plug and the and as I said the three wires were not brittle so I would not have have concluded thought that that this
01:25:36 concluded thought that that this breadmaker was not plugged in behind the fridge freezer thank you and the view set up there at the fine I should say the sake completeness you've got six the fusing the plug for the breadmaker power supply cord is intact
01:25:48 breadmaker power supply cord is intact not blown correct and does that remain your view as set out in Section ten point three of your report it does next can we deal with the small fridge and
01:26:00 can we deal with the small fridge and first of all clouds Paul to bring up the sketch page eight of your report thank you if that could be amplified again Paul and I think the position of the
01:26:16 Paul and I think the position of the small fridge is identified with a capital letter I in the bottom left hand corner is that right yes and I wouldn't emphasize that this sketch was drawn by
01:26:27 emphasize that this sketch was drawn by mr. kabiri this was his memory of where the these various items were located within the kitchen prior to the fire and that's what you've relied upon as you indicated oh yes now if Paul we could D
01:26:40 indicated oh yes now if Paul we could D amplifier and go to page 30 internally
01:26:46 and dr. Glover section seven point three you set out again your summary in relation to the observations you make concerning the small fridge and you say
01:26:58 concerning the small fridge and you say the following observations did not support a fire origin of the small fridge or its power supply cord in flat 16 1 mr. Kapadia mishap of work he's both state the small fridge was not in use and not plugged in too close for
01:27:11 use and not plugged in too close for examination of exhibit mjd 33 the four gang extension lead that could have been used for the small fridge showed that it had no plugs inserted into any of its four sockets three there is no evidence
01:27:23 four sockets three there is no evidence that the small fridge had been plugged into any socket at the time the fire four there is no arc damage the small fridges power supply cord or to any internal wire or component within the small fridge five the fuse in the plug
01:27:34 small fridge five the fuse in the plug associated the power supply cord isn't not blown six there were no foodstuffs found in the small fridge seven the underside the small fridge is largely intact undamaged including one of the
01:27:45 intact undamaged including one of the plastic feet and does that remain your view yes sir thank you could we now turn to the medium size freezer and Paul apologies for jumping around can we go back to page eight
01:27:56 around can we go back to page eight internally to this report if we get amplify mr. kuberdas sketch plan and the medium size freezer is I think identified by the capital letter H in the bottom left-hand corner is that
01:28:07 the bottom left-hand corner is that right yes the H is the medium freezer and a small fridge that we just talked about his eye which would have been on top of the medium freezer and just to just to confirm evidence you gave
01:28:18 just to confirm evidence you gave earlier on I think I'm right an understanding you accept that the stranding found in relation to the arc damaged exhibits mgs worn and jdg one is consistent both in strand count and
01:28:29 consistent both in strand count and diameter with the medium-sized freezers powerful yes as well as a couple other internal wires that had 24 strands thank you Paul if we could D amplifier mr.
01:28:41 you Paul if we could D amplifier mr. Kapadia sketch pan and could I ask you to turn to page 33 internally dr. brother there we find the summary of
01:28:53 brother there we find the summary of your conclusions in relation to the medium-sized freezer first of all the following observations port of support a fire origin of the medium-sized freezer or its power supply cord in flat 16 one
01:29:04 or its power supply cord in flat 16 one exhibit jdg one which I found inside the medium-sized freezer during my 27th of April 2018 examination bureau veritas consists of stranded copper wire
01:29:15 consists of stranded copper wire segments with arc damaged copper beads of one end each wire segment for JTG one has 24 strands with an approximate strand amateur point 16 millimeters to the medium-sized freezers power supply
01:29:27 the medium-sized freezers power supply cord as well as other courts within the medium sized freezer include wires or 24 strands and approximate strand damage 0.16 to point 18 millimeters this time is consistent without damaged exhibits
01:29:38 is consistent without damaged exhibits jdg one and MJS warm and then you set out factors which do not support a fire origin of a medium-sized freezer and one mr. Kapadia miss F working both
01:29:50 and one mr. Kapadia miss F working both state the medium-sized freezer was not in use and not plugged in at the time the fire employee can turn over the page
01:30:01 and you note the support provided by the Bureau of Veritas report to in his witness statement mr. Kapadia states the medium-sized freezer stopped working about nine years ago so it was unplugged he had not bought it long before I
01:30:12 he had not bought it long before I stopped working so called in a fridge technician from the Yellow Pages who told him the fuse had gone post for examination of MGD 33 extension lead that could have been used for the
01:30:24 that could have been used for the medium-sized freezer showed that it had no plugs inserted into any of its four sockets those Network for those no evidence of medium-sized freezer being plugged into any sake at the time of the fire five there were no traces of
01:30:36 fire five there were no traces of foodstuffs found in the medium-sized freezer six other than exhibit jdg warned there is no arc damage to any component or any other internal wire within the medium-sized freezer either
01:30:48 within the medium-sized freezer either jdg one parked at a prior time unrelated to the fire or it was relocated into the medium-sized freezer during or after firefighting efforts seven there is no
01:31:00 firefighting efforts seven there is no arc damage to the remains of the medium-sized freezers power supply cord eight the medium sized freezers plug was initially found attached the power supply cord but later became separated from the cord nine in my opinion mjd 34
01:31:13 from the cord nine in my opinion mjd 34 the remnants of a plug is the medium freezer plug that became separated 10 the fuse in mjd 34 is intact not blown and finally a paper label on the
01:31:24 and finally a paper label on the compressor and the plastic enclosure of an electrical junction box both located within the medium sized freezer remain largely intact it is implausible that the fire origin could be within the
01:31:36 the fire origin could be within the medium sized freezer with a paper label and a plastic junction box enclosure largely intact and then you go on in the final paragraph and my observation is
01:31:47 final paragraph and my observation is sorry in my opinion observations 1 to 11 above strongly support a conclusion that the medium-sized freezer was not plugged in at the time the fire as such it is probable that arcing to jdg 1 occurred
01:31:58 probable that arcing to jdg 1 occurred either one during the initiation or early stages the fire one is located in the area of fire origin electorally connected to circuit number seven kitchen or two at a
01:32:09 circuit number seven kitchen or two at a prior time unrelated to the fire mr. Baily reports the freezer stopped working nine years ago and a bad fuse is found does that remain your view yes sir I have further concluded if you go to my
01:32:22 I have further concluded if you go to my addendum later that in my opinion that the jdg one arced at a prior time unrelated to the fire will come on to that but essentially your view remain
01:32:33 that but essentially your view remain the same in terms of excluding yes thank you
01:32:39 you penultimate appliance or worrying that I'd like to take you to the extension lead this is dealt with a section six of your report and first of all before we go to the summary page when seven colors
01:32:51 go to the summary page when seven colors Paul to go to figures a four - eight there we go and first of all this is the extension lead with which you're concerned in
01:33:02 lead with which you're concerned in Section six of your report is that right yes sir can you help us as to where the extension lead was found can you remember yes the extension lead was
01:33:13 remember yes the extension lead was found and there are some photos in there that I could refer to now just a for one and two perhaps but it was found between the on the east side of the kitchen very
01:33:27 the on the east side of the kitchen very close to the living room okay there are there were wooden panel door sliding doors that separated the kitchen from the living room those doors
01:33:38 the living room those doors those panel doors were consumed during the fire but the this extension lead was found by fire investigators on the day of the fire right in that vicinity where
01:33:49 of the fire right in that vicinity where the wooden panel doors separated the living room from the kitchen on the east side thank thank you dr. Glover now Paul if we could put down these photographs
01:34:01 if we could put down these photographs and return to dr. Glover's report and page 27 within the airport
01:34:10 and dr. Glover there you set out the observations that legit include that they don't support fire origin at the extension leader it's past pike
01:34:23 extension leader it's past pike what no plug was found in any of the four sockets the extension lead if that were no devices plugged into the extension lead at the time the fire the extension lead delivered zero load current with no heat dissipation due to
01:34:34 current with no heat dissipation due to load current further with no connected devices the extension lead would not have delivered any short-circuit current or any over current to such a device - there is no arc damage to the internal
01:34:45 - there is no arc damage to the internal current carrying components of the extension lead and there is no arc damaged the remains of a power supply cord for the extension lead three arc damaged exhibits mgs1 djd g1 are not
01:34:57 damaged exhibits mgs1 djd g1 are not associated with extension leapers cry cord main supply flex four there is a missing portion of the power supply cord and a missing plug extension lead therefore it is unknown whether the
01:35:09 therefore it is unknown whether the extension lead was plugged into electrical socket at the time of the fire
01:35:13 fire five if at time of the file extension lead had been plugged into a socket the most likely socket would have been the one on the living room east wall approximately 18 inches in sliding door
01:35:24 approximately 18 inches in sliding door panels that separated the kitchen from the living room and we've just looked as shown in figure a 4 - 3 taken the 14th of June the severed end of the extension lead power supply cord is near that
01:35:36 lead power supply cord is near that living room socket sixth the living rooms that living super real socket is supplied by circuit number 8 flat sockets not circuit 7 if at the time the
01:35:47 sockets not circuit 7 if at the time the five extension lead had been plugged into that living room socket then it is unrelated to the one event or the first of two events that caused the circuit break of a circuit number seven kitchen to trip seven if at the time of the fire
01:36:00 to trip seven if at the time of the fire the extension lead had been plugged into that living room socket the missing portion of the power supply cord and missing plug would then have been located in the living room which is outside the area of fire origin as established by fire investigators
01:36:11 established by fire investigators finally in my opinion it is implausible that a fire could begin in the living room
01:36:16 room where mr. Koh baby was sleeping at the time then progressed through the sliding door panels into the kitchen and not awakened him until the kitchen smoke detector alarmed dr. Glover does that
01:36:27 detector alarmed dr. Glover does that many of you yes thank you now the final element of wiring that I'd like to discuss with you before we get on to the large fridge freezer is the fluorescent
01:36:38 large fridge freezer is the fluorescent light and wiring from the ceiling of the kitchen now you deal with this in Section 13 of your report that's at pages 63 64 now I think it's right to
01:36:51 pages 63 64 now I think it's right to say that you've examined for exhibits comprising the wiring from the ceiling above the kitchen counter and near the window as well as a fluorescent light is that right yes sir thank you and if Paul
01:37:04 that right yes sir thank you and if Paul I might ask you to turn to page 64 and section 13.5 again if you don't flow that Paul please are
01:37:15 if you don't flow that Paul please are you there set out again summary of your observations and the following observation do not support a fire or agender to any of the following items in the ceiling of the kitchen in flat 16 one lighting was supplied by circuits
01:37:27 one lighting was supplied by circuits numbers two and three at the consuming unit excuse me both of the circuit breakers for circuits numbers circuit numbers 2 & 3 were found in the on positions confirming that there was no
01:37:38 positions confirming that there was no short circuit or over current sufficient to trip either the 6th and breakers these lighting circuits to the circuit breakers that did trip at the time of the fire the circuit breaker for circuit
01:37:49 the fire the circuit breaker for circuit number seven kitchen the RC r CC B circuit breaker for the RCD protected circuits are unrelated to the lighting circuits and these exhibits 3 no arc damage or other abnormal electrical
01:38:00 damage or other abnormal electrical activity is observed for any of the wiring in the exhibits identified there for arc damaged exhibits mj's 1 and jdg warm are not associated with any of the
01:38:11 warm are not associated with any of the wiring for exhibits mjd 49 63 or 64 does that remain your view yes sir thank you now doctor clarified let's turn to the
01:38:22 now doctor clarified let's turn to the question of the large fridge/freezer which is considered at section 12 of your report and just so that we can orientate ourselves as to what you looked at is it right say that
01:38:33 what you looked at is it right say that you examined the remains of the large fridge/freezer which is a Hotpoint double F 175 BP which you understood to being manufactured in or about October
01:38:44 being manufactured in or about October 2008 October 2008 yes now is it right that you also examined what's been described as an exemplar yes I didn't it and that exemplar was provided by
01:38:57 and that exemplar was provided by whirlpool and it was an index number rather model number double F 175 BP but manufactured in or about November 2006
01:39:08 manufactured in or about November 2006 is that right yes now can you help us what differences were there between the large fridge/freezer that was in flat 16 and the exemplar fridge that you also
01:39:20 and the exemplar fridge that you also examined now there are a number of differences for example within the fridge freezer is a device called a motor run capacitor capacitor if I could
01:39:33 motor run capacitor capacitor if I could stop you there again asking a basic question what's the motor run capacitor a capacitor is an electrical electrical device that stores charge and it is
01:39:45 device that stores charge and it is utilized in this case to help the refrigerator run more efficiently thank you apologies I interrupted you when you in full flow but you are identifying the differences between the exemplar and the
01:39:56 differences between the exemplar and the large fridge freezer and you refer to the motor run capacitor so I say my understanding and reviewing the records and the documents that that real pool
01:40:07 and the documents that that real pool changed their capacitor from a so called p0 capacitor to a P to P as in Peter a p0 capacitor is one that is not
01:40:20 p0 capacitor is one that is not protected against fire or against electrical shock so for the earlier model the exemplar that looked at which was manufactured in 2006
01:40:32 looked at which was manufactured in 2006 that had the unprotected motor run capacitor at the so called P the CRL capacitor the subject fridge/freezer that was in flat 16 was manufactured in
01:40:46 that was in flat 16 was manufactured in October 2008 and according to the whirlpool documents by that time whirlpool had switched over to a so-called p2 capacitor that is protected
01:41:01 so-called p2 capacitor that is protected against fire it's and it's designed and manufactured so that if there is a problem within the motor run capacitor it will be a fail-safe device whether it
01:41:15 it will be a fail-safe device whether it would be failing in from a fire or from an electric shock point of view so that's one example and is this difference material to your analysis of
01:41:27 difference material to your analysis of origin and cause so is the difference between the exemplar and the subject large fridge/freezer is it relevant as a material to your analysis of origin
01:41:39 material to your analysis of origin there are some relevance but the the exemplar fridge/freezer die law was very helpful helpful to me in understanding the basic components within the fridge
01:41:50 the basic components within the fridge freezer and then when I went to the subject fridge freezer I could know I was well aware of the differences I've talked about one the capacitor there are
01:42:02 talked about one the capacitor there are other differences can you help us what those other day other principal differences are that a material yes both fridge freezers have a
01:42:13 fridge freezers have a compressor that is the device that is used to compress the refrigerant that's part of the refrigeration cycle for the fridge freezer the compressor is located
01:42:25 fridge freezer the compressor is located at the bottom rear of the fridge freezer either one the compressor that I looked at for the exemplar was manufactured by
01:42:37 at for the exemplar was manufactured by a company called Tacoma that's Tec um seh so it was a two cups of compressor whereas the subject fridge freezer from
01:42:50 whereas the subject fridge freezer from flat 16 had a a compressor that was manufactured by embryo that would be e m BR AC l-- as a second difference the
01:43:02 BR AC l-- as a second difference the control boards were slightly different the number of wires a wiring highness harness within the exemplars Ridge freezer and the remains of a wiring
01:43:15 freezer and the remains of a wiring harness in the subject fridge freezer both of them had five wires but there were some differences one of them all
01:43:26 were some differences one of them all five wires were in a cord so to speak with an outer jacket whereas in the other the wires were separate wires although we were three differences another principal material once you can
01:43:38 another principal material once you can say yes now if I could turn to you the conclusions in your report regarding the large fridge freezer and Paul could I ask you to turn at page 61 of dr. Glover's report and in particular
01:43:49 Glover's report and in particular section 12
01:43:57 now at the top of the page you say this exhibits reviewed in this section are segregated into three possible fire origins one within the fridge freezer Exhibit B ps1 two at the fridge freezer
01:44:11 Exhibit B ps1 two at the fridge freezer power supply cord the main supply flex and three components associated with the fixed wiring for circuit number seven kitchen now if we can start first of all with subsection 12 point 10.1 within VPS
01:44:25 with subsection 12 point 10.1 within VPS 1 that's the large fridge freezer you made the follower you found the following observations supported fire origin within VPS worn one there's a missing run capacitor which would have
01:44:36 missing run capacitor which would have been mounted on the compressor mounting plate to the left of the compressor now stopping there why does that support a fire origin internal to be ps1 the large fridge freezer well whenever you have a
01:44:49 fridge freezer well whenever you have a missing electrical opponent that's of concern you have you can't evaluate a missing component can't look at the device to see if there was abnormal electrical activity there had been some
01:45:01 electrical activity there had been some prior fires in with these fridge freezers in involved run capacitors however we do know that the subject fridge freezer had a p2 a fail-safe
01:45:13 fridge freezer had a p2 a fail-safe device in it but that's always a concern when you have a missing component that is perhaps completely consumed during the fire that you cannot evaluate turning to to arc damaged exhibits I'm
01:45:26 turning to to arc damaged exhibits I'm Jess Warren and JD do you want a consistent with the remains of two was found within the relay compartment of the fridge freezer and you give the reason next for therefore that consistency it's that each of these
01:45:38 consistency it's that each of these wires which has 24 strands is either a run capacitor wire or internal jumper why within the relay compartment is that right yes we looked at the remains of
01:45:50 right yes we looked at the remains of the connectors within the compressor relay compartment we found two connectors that had 24 strand wires in them and by process of elimination
01:46:03 them and by process of elimination included that those connectors have served wires for either the missing run capacitor or for an internal wire within the compressor relay compartment thank you looking at the third observation you
01:46:17 you looking at the third observation you may damage exhibits mgs1 and JD g1 are also consistent with exhibit slw triple 1a wire segment with a soldered end from B ps3 now taking each element of that
01:46:28 B ps3 now taking each element of that but first of all what's Exhibit B ps3 B ps3 are wires that were found below the
01:46:41 ps3 are wires that were found below the fridge freezer basically subject to review it should be B ps3 and page 50 conductors from fridge freezer base
01:46:52 conductors from fridge freezer base that's what B ps3 is one of those wires was SL w 111 basically a wire segment that was found to have 24 strands thank
01:47:04 that was found to have 24 strands thank you the fourth point you mentioned the previous incidents involving a p0 run capacitor and also to reports fire potentially involving P to run capacitor
01:47:17 potentially involving P to run capacitor and that's the the reason you adverse to earlier on now you then go on to set out observations that don't support foraging within bps warn a number one you say no
01:47:29 within bps warn a number one you say no arc damage was observed within bps one now to the lay reader that looks like a significant factor pointing against the fire origin bidam within the large
01:47:41 fire origin bidam within the large fridge freezer what be your response to that lay observation yes and as I mentioned particularly focus on MJ s one
01:47:53 mentioned particularly focus on MJ s one that was found in the second bedroom we looked at that earlier today a wire segment approximately 10 centimeters in length with a section I concluded that that MJS one
01:48:06 section I concluded that that MJS one there is no way that that could have arced in the second bedroom on the night of the fire for various reasons there was a lady sleeping in the room
01:48:17 there was a lady sleeping in the room for one reason number two the bedroom is served by circuit eight okay the student trip circuit a didn't trip mr. kabiri
01:48:28 trip circuit a didn't trip mr. kabiri turned off the main switch which is very helpful in my analysis before he vacated so that when the fire eventually got into the second bedroom later on after he vacated there was no
01:48:40 later on after he vacated there was no energized facilities there so you couldn't have had arc damage at that time so for a number of reasons I concluded that MJS one could not have
01:48:51 concluded that MJS one could not have arced in the second bedroom so that means you've got two possibilities and one is that it was electrically connected to circuit seven in the kitchen because that's the circuit
01:49:03 kitchen because that's the circuit record it tripped or it arced at some prior time and just been there for months or years sometime unrelated to the fire those are your two possibilities
01:49:14 possibilities moving on to subparagraph 2 say the three amp fuse the fridge freezer power supply cord is intact not blown again to the lay person looking at this that
01:49:27 the lay person looking at this that seems like a significant factor pointing against the large fridge freezer been the origin what be your response to that lay observation yes you know might want to point out that that's 13 amp refused
01:49:40 to point out that that's 13 amp refused one three not three amps earlier I had mentioned that there's no way the extractor fan could have been the origin of the fire because the three ampere fuse did not blow the 3 amp fuse that
01:49:53 fuse did not blow the 3 amp fuse that protected the extractor fan here for the fridge freezer we have a 13 ampere fuse and I described earlier in my report I
01:50:05 and I described earlier in my report I compared the operating time the 32m circuit breaker for circuit seven compared that with the fuse blowing time for a 13mp refused and the
01:50:20 blowing time for a 13mp refused and the analysis shows that either one could go first it's possible that the 32 amp circuit breaker took a trip before the 13 amp fuse in a wide range of currents
01:50:32 13 amp fuse in a wide range of currents I believe ranging from the numbers are in there a hundred to a few hundred amperes either one could go so the fact that a 13 amp fuse for the fridge/freezer is intact it's not blown
01:50:45 fridge/freezer is intact it's not blown that doesn't mean that there was no short circuit within the fridge freezer because the 32 F circuit breaker quite likely could have tripped first leaving
01:50:58 likely could have tripped first leaving that 13 ampere fuse intact thank you and finally Justin we have subparagraph 3 whirlpools reported there were no recalls no legal proceedings against
01:51:09 recalls no legal proceedings against will pull in citrus representatives involving Hotpoint double F 175 BP or double F at once and 5 BG just to say completeness I note that do the views you set out there at 12-point 10.1
01:51:23 you set out there at 12-point 10.1 remain your view yes sir now Paul if we can turn over the page to section 12 point 10 point 2 and at this point you'd go through the various observations you identify it in relation
01:51:35 observations you identify it in relation to the fridge/freezer power supply cord
01:51:39 and I won't read the map but essentially your conclusion is that the evidence does not support a fire origin within the past plight cord for the reasons you set out in subparagraph 1 & 2 is that
01:51:52 set out in subparagraph 1 & 2 is that right
01:51:52 right yes and that remains your view it does and similarly if we go on to section subsection rather 12.10 point 3 which deals with fixed wiring for circuit number 7 the kitchen you say this the
01:52:06 number 7 the kitchen you say this the following observations do not support a fire origin at the fixed wiring for circuit number 7 kitchen in flat 16 worn no arc damage or abnormal electrical activity is observed on any of the
01:52:17 activity is observed on any of the following items related to the fixed wiring
01:52:20 wiring a remains of a double socket buzz bar with two receivers from MC l06 again for those of us less technically minded what's a buzz bar the busbar is within a
01:52:31 what's a buzz bar the busbar is within a socket if you remove the closure of a socket you will see a metal devices they're basically current carrying devices that carry the current from the
01:52:43 devices that carry the current from the consumer unit through the socket to the plug that it is plugged into thank you the remains of a single socket buzz bar and double socket buzz bar from bps 5 and 3 of wires on kitchen ring main side
01:52:57 and 3 of wires on kitchen ring main side of spur to arc damaged exhibits mgs1 and JD G Warren are not consistent with the kitchen ring main wire circuit number seven each of which has seven strands
01:53:08 seven each of which has seven strands were and third and finally the fixed wiring is protected from mechanical damage the vile wire trunking and sockets which enclosures I'm just looking at the third and final one is
01:53:19 looking at the third and final one is that to say that you found no damage to the fixed wiring is that what subparagraph 3 is getting at no arc damage to the fixed wiring there's certainly fire damaged by the insulation
01:53:32 certainly fire damaged by the insulation is burned off but there's no art damage or evidence of an abnormal electrical activity that's useful thank you very much now if I could ask you and port would you mind turning to page 77 of
01:53:44 would you mind turning to page 77 of your report and this sets out your essential conclusions in relation to the large fridge freezer and its 16.1 under
01:53:57 large fridge freezer and its 16.1 under the heading relationship between fire origin and circle number seven kitchen you say this within the area of fire origin it is probable that the fire origin is at the electrical component that caused the circuit breaker for
01:54:09 that caused the circuit breaker for circuit number seven kitchen to trip and you refer back to section 15 point 1 which we don't need to go to is effectively replicate what we've just looked at it patter section 12.10 but
01:54:22 looked at it patter section 12.10 but then turning to section subsection sixteen point two under the heading devices an area of fire origin confirmed to be electrically connected to circuit number seven kitchen you rehearse the analysis we've just
01:54:34 you rehearse the analysis we've just undergone and then by process effectively of elimination you conclude that's the large food freezer is implicated or probably implicated in the origin the fire is that a fair if
01:54:46 origin the fire is that a fair if general summary yes I concluded that the internal large fridge freezer was the most probable fire RG I'm following on
01:54:58 most probable fire RG I'm following on from the use of the word probability can I ask you to turn to page 77 of your report and you'll see in the preamble to section 16 the third line you use the
01:55:11 section 16 the third line you use the phrase a reasonable degree of engineering certainty can you help us what does that phrase mean are you indicating there that you've applied the balance of probabilities or some other
01:55:22 balance of probabilities or some other standard now when I say a reasonable degree of engineering certainly nothing is 100% certain okay but based on all my
01:55:34 is 100% certain okay but based on all my training and education and experience investigating electrode fires my conclusions are to a reasonable degree
01:55:45 conclusions are to a reasonable degree of engineering survey certainty most probable most probable now if I could turn to the addendum you prepared and just by way of context on the 16th of
01:55:58 just by way of context on the 16th of November of this year you provide an addendum to your report which reviewed a CT scan of exhibit JD g6 B that B for Bravo a wire connector recovered from
01:56:09 Bravo a wire connector recovered from the compressor relay compartment of the larger fridge/freezer am i right thus far yes sir now in short your conclusion is that the wire connector had a poor crimp which led to an overheated
01:56:21 crimp which led to an overheated connection which you posit as a hypothetical fire initiation scenario is that a fair summary yes now in relation to the addendum dr. klevor my questions
01:56:33 to the addendum dr. klevor my questions will fall essentially into three parts first of all just dealing with basic factual matters relating to exhibit 6b for Bravo
01:56:41 for Bravo secondly some contextual points in relation to that exhibit and finally some specific questions relating to the analysis set out in the addendum so starting for us all with the first part
01:56:53 starting for us all with the first part and that's the basic factual matters Paul could I ask you to turn up the addendum which is a JD G our quadruple zero zero one nine underscore trouble
01:57:08 zero zero one nine underscore trouble zero one and that's the addendum is that right dr. Glover yes and if I could ask Paul to turn to page five and if you
01:57:19 Paul to turn to page five and if you could amplify figure one the exhibit with which we are concerned is six beef a Bravo which is more precisely identified on the right hand side is
01:57:32 identified on the right hand side is that right yes and then we see it together with other exhibits on the left hand side and it's at the bottom left hand corner of that photo yes can you
01:57:43 hand corner of that photo yes can you just help us the other exhibits on the left hand side they are extracted from the large food freezer as well is that right yes all of these exhibits marked
01:57:57 right yes all of these exhibits marked jdg six were found were collected from within a the compressor relay compartment that is attached it was
01:58:09 compartment that is attached it was attached to the compressor for the fridge freezer and flat 16 can you help us from and from where are you able to give us a precise idea of from where
01:58:21 give us a precise idea of from where within the large fridge freezer exhibit 6b for Bravo wasn't found recovered so at the rear of the fridge freezer at the rear bottom there is a compressor and
01:58:34 rear bottom there is a compressor and attached to that compressor is a small compartment that would have been had a plastic enclosure for it and that compartment is called the compressor relay compartment
01:58:48 called the compressor relay compartment within that compartment the fire investigators recovered jdg six now you outline for us earlier on what the
01:59:00 outline for us earlier on what the compressor was it compressed refrigerant is that right excuse me you defined earlier on what the compressor is and I think you said it compressed the refrigerant is that correct the
01:59:12 refrigerant is that correct the compressor compresses the refrigerant it provides the cooling yes yes is that we should present your question yes okay yes
01:59:20 yes secondly the relay compartment just so people understand at the outset what is the relay compartment and what does it do
01:59:28 do okay that would be a small explanation the relay in compartment is attached to the compressor and basically the wires
01:59:40 the compressor and basically the wires the electrical wires that provide electricity to the compressor to the compressor motor run through this relay compartment within that compartment are
01:59:52 compartment within that compartment are there four wires you're seeing some of the remains in jdg six here wire connectors there are also two what we call relays those are switching devices
02:00:05 call relays those are switching devices that are used to control the operation of the compressor spend a little time on that just to be more helpful that the
02:00:17 that just to be more helpful that the two relays one of them is a so-called P T C Peter Thomas Charlie relay and that relay is used to start the
02:00:31 that relay is used to start the compressor motor so that the when the compressor is first turned on when the control board within the refrigerator decides that it's time to provide some
02:00:42 decides that it's time to provide some cooling the electrical current flows through this PTC relay to to us start whining within the motor that gets the motors the compressor
02:00:53 that gets the motors the compressor motor started then as the motor comes up to speed the compressor motor comes up to Steve's speed and draws the full load current this PTC relay switches the
02:01:04 current this PTC relay switches the current over to a second relay which is an overload relay so there are two relays within the compressor relay department the second one is an overload
02:01:17 department the second one is an overload relay as a trade name clicks on that's k-l xon you're gonna find clicks on relays and thousands of refrigerators and other appliances throughout the
02:01:30 and other appliances throughout the world
02:01:30 world so once the motor is up to speed the current the electricity will flow through the overload relay that clicks on over Elul relay and if there is any
02:01:41 on over Elul relay and if there is any short-circuit or electrical problem within the compressor motor that clicks on relay will disconnect power and safely remove any overload current so
02:01:52 safely remove any overload current so what you're talking about is wires wire connectors and two relays or switching devices in this compressor relay compartment that is affixed to the compressor itself unless you will be
02:02:04 compressor itself unless you will be coming on that's useful contest will be coming on to the particular operation of these wires and the various components when it comes look at the figure seven but dealing with basic matters at this
02:02:17 but dealing with basic matters at this stage am i right and understanding that exhibit six beef a Bravo was a wire connector in a not only a wire connector but a small section of wire actually two
02:02:29 but a small section of wire actually two wires that are affixed that are connected to that connector and what purpose does that serve okay those two wires are part of the wiring harness
02:02:41 wires are part of the wiring harness that comes from the internal part of the refrigerator up where the control the control board is higher up in the refrigerator but the wiring harness comes down there are five wires two of
02:02:53 comes down there are five wires two of them are associated with jdg 6 B's and that what we're focusing on here thank you
02:03:04 you and those would be live wires when the compressor calls for power when it's time to energize the compressor that jdg six B would be energized wires but she
02:03:16 six B would be energized wires but she thank you now looking at its composition as you've adverted to 6b consists of two wires and each with a strand diameter of 0.7 millimeters is that right yes but
02:03:28 0.7 millimeters is that right yes but one consisting of 23 stand strands and another of 14 strands is that right yes sir thank you now the now move to the second part of my questioning in
02:03:40 second part of my questioning in relation to the addendum and that's really in respect of certain contextual points now looking at how you've set out the reasoning in the addendum a central
02:03:51 the reasoning in the addendum a central element that the hypothesis you advanced is the poor crimp connection is that a fair summary before we proceed any further yes now it may be useful if we go to page 6 of the addendum and can you
02:04:07 go to page 6 of the addendum and can you help us first of all with what figure 2 shows yes could you blow that up at their hole could you amplify it thank
02:04:19 their hole could you amplify it thank you so this is a result of a CT scan that was performed at nakhon trim at their computer tomography facilities up
02:04:31 their computer tomography facilities up in the Train area we did that in September last September 2018 and this is the resulting CT scan of that connector jdg 6b is in brown the top
02:04:45 connector jdg 6b is in brown the top part of that is actually the connector if you could return to your former role as a professor and identify on the photograph where that connector is so
02:04:58 photograph where that connector is so you can see two wires there entering the connector and this area of the connector it's called the wire barrel and that is for the the stenographers purposes it is
02:05:11 for the the stenographers purposes it is the two barrels which are alongside each other in the middle of that scam correct and this is where the connector is crimped
02:05:19 crimped it's a pressure connection a tool or a machine that provides a compression force to that wire barrel that basically grips the wire strands and keeps them
02:05:33 grips the wire strands and keeps them inside of the barrel and if I can stop you the essential purpose of a crimp connection is to keep the wires within the barrel is that it tightly affixed within the barrel yes and it has to be
02:05:45 within the barrel yes and it has to be tight within the barrel polities is question obvious why does it what do the wires have to be kept tight within the barrel because you could have a problem if they are loose within the barrel you could get some overheating which I
02:05:58 you could get some overheating which I could which I have concluded happened for this JD g6 we can come on to that now what we have set in the bottom half
02:06:10 now what we have set in the bottom half of this figure is what you've described as cross-sectional slices is that right yes now there are five identified there is that right one two three four five these are cross
02:06:23 one two three four five these are cross sections taken by this the computer tomography the CT skin that I observed thank you and how many cross-sectional slices did you examine in total okay so
02:06:34 slices did you examine in total okay so the CT scan starting from the left end of the barrel to the right in the barrel goes at approximately 0.03 millimeter intervals and if you count them up from
02:06:48 intervals and if you count them up from the left-hand side to the right-hand side of the barrel they were approximately 88 zero slices I've five of which I am showing here to
02:06:59 I've five of which I am showing here to what extent of the five slices said set out there exemplars of the other cross-sectional slices you reviewed well
02:07:11 cross-sectional slices you reviewed well you would have to look at all 80 which I did but basically what I found was a lot of void spaces an indication of a loose crimp that has not been
02:07:23 of a loose crimp that has not been properly crimped when the compression was applied during the mania during the application of this wire what also mentioned there is a space up here if you blow this up you can probably see it
02:07:35 you blow this up you can probably see it a little better moving this figure but there is a space and it's a tapered space that tapers down to no space on the right side and that's another indication that the crimp was not nice
02:07:47 indication that the crimp was not nice and tight that's a good compression prick doctor if I could just stop you there when you said there's a space there you're referring to a space in between the two wire barrels yes sir now
02:08:00 between the two wire barrels yes sir now if I go back to the bottom half of this figure figure 2 Paul if you go back to figure T please and you've identified on
02:08:13 figure T please and you've identified on four of the five what you've described as voids
02:08:16 as voids yes and there are actually there are even voids here but it's a somewhat blurry there are actually voids in all five of these sections in fact there I
02:08:27 five of these sections in fact there I found voids in all 80 cross sections some of them much larger than the others you guys have some very serious ones here on the left here it appears that the by the way inside of this crimp of
02:08:41 the by the way inside of this crimp of the connector are the wire strands individual strands if I could stop you there if we could take this stage by stage looking reading from left to right
02:08:53 stage looking reading from left to right dr. klevor looking at the slide on the furthest left hand side to the lay I there appear to be voids not only between the wires themselves in the wild
02:09:05 between the wires themselves in the wild barrel but also between the wires themselves is that a correct observation yes and it's an important one too because you need the wire strands to be in contact with each other so as to
02:09:19 in contact with each other so as to provide an easy way for the current to flow among all of the strands and to reduce the so called resistance of this contact here and in
02:09:32 resistance of this contact here and in resistance if it's too high can lead to overheating now stopping there if we just examine each of these slices the second slice from the left to the lab I
02:09:43 second slice from the left to the lab I appears to show voids as between wires is that correct yes it's it's it's somewhat blurry but there are definitely voids between the wire strands another
02:09:56 voids between the wire strands another feature here you see the the two ends of the barrel are not projecting down into the wires strands in another indication
02:10:09 the wires strands in another indication that we have a loose a loose crimp a loose compression force here and is the consequence of their being voids as between wires the same as the consequences of their being voids as
02:10:22 consequences of their being voids as between wires and the wire and the wire barrel itself yes because the electrical current is flowing in these wire snips treants eventually has to get out through the connector this connector
02:10:34 through the connector this connector then connects on to the a spade connection which provides current to the compressor motor so the current is coming from these wire strands down the
02:10:47 coming from these wire strands down the wire it has to come through the wire strands and through the contacts surface of the barrel of the crimp connector and
02:10:58 of the barrel of the crimp connector and then the current will flow through the connection eventually getting to the motor so you want a nice tight connection to prevent basically overheating if you have poor contact you
02:11:09 overheating if you have poor contact you look at overheating thank you and Paul if you can take it down figure 2 and then put up figure 3
02:11:20 now this is essentially a compare and contrast exercise dr. Glover isn't it because what you say you describe figure three quotes as a good crimb close quotes now if we again move from left to
02:11:35 quotes now if we again move from left to right even though you describe this as a good crimb on the left-hand side there still appear to be void certainly to this lay I although voids there there are actually
02:11:46 although voids there there are actually if I were to change this I would say it's a better crimp than 6b Bravo and we're looking at 6a now but I actually have some concerns about this crimp also so it's relatively better than figure
02:11:59 so it's relatively better than figure two
02:12:00 two but it's not a quotes good close quote some crimp that's my opinion and the reason why you don't think is a good one and it may well be the middle slice the third from the left illustrate so I think the point you want
02:12:12 illustrate so I think the point you want to make is that there are still voids as between the wires themselves and query between the wires and the guayaberas are fair observation yes you can still see void spaces by the way these barrel
02:12:24 void spaces by the way these barrel curvature is are much better than if you looked up at 6b Bravo you can see them projecting more into the wire strands
02:12:35 projecting more into the wire strands which is especially over here but you still have some void spaces here that would be of some concern thank you those are the points I want to draw out and
02:12:48 are the points I want to draw out and respect to figures 2 & 3 can I ask you now to turn to page 7 of the addendum and in particular the third paragraph on that page which starts poor
02:13:04 paragraph on that page which starts poor crimping leads and I'll just let you refresh your memory just read that paragraph to yourself first of all yes now you say there that there is a
02:13:15 now you say there that there is a decrease in contact area between the wire strands and the connector now is the connector the wire barrels you ever annotated in figures 2 & 3 excuse me
02:13:27 annotated in figures 2 & 3 excuse me you say there that there's a decrease in the contact area between the connector and wire strands yes my question is what is the connector essentially is it what we've just seen in figures two and three
02:13:39 we've just seen in figures two and three yes jdg 6b is the connector like now you go on to say in this paragraph that there is quotes accompanied by an increase in the associated contact
02:13:50 increase in the associated contact resistance now my first question just to help us understand the analysis is can you explain first of all what contact resistance is okay you're talking about
02:14:04 resistance is okay you're talking about electrical term resistance copper is a very good conductor it can carry current quite easily it has what we call low resistance other
02:14:18 what we call low resistance other devices are not very good conduction of electricity for example air air is a poor conductor of electricity especially
02:14:29 poor conductor of electricity especially dry air and if you have voids an electrical current has to pass through those void spaces that means you have an
02:14:40 those void spaces that means you have an increase in resistance it's not as obviously not as good as the copper itself so the more voids you have the higher the resistance the lower the
02:14:53 higher the resistance the lower the contact area between the wire strands themselves in between the wire strands in the connector the more voids you have the higher the resistance and that leads
02:15:06 the higher the resistance and that leads to power losses and overheating we thought you have high resistance when you say power connector power loss that's what you're just referring to now
02:15:17 that's what you're just referring to now yes and there's a formula that I I provide the air that when you have current flowing through a resistance electrical current then there is a
02:15:28 electrical current then there is a formula for the power loss at that connector which is the square of the current times the tech resistance so the higher the resistance the more power loss and when
02:15:42 resistance the more power loss and when you have power losses at a connector you have heat thank you now staying with this paragraph you say that this phenomenon can cause oxidization of the
02:15:54 phenomenon can cause oxidization of the connector itself and presumably that oxidization itself increases resistance and as the consequences you've just outlined is that a fair summary yes so when you have voids you have the
02:16:06 when you have voids you have the possibility of oxides avoids around the strands themselves and also avoids between the wire strands and the crimp and you have those voids you have the
02:16:17 and you have those voids you have the possibility of oxide buildup its electrochemical reaction electrolysis that creates oxides which provides more
02:16:28 that creates oxides which provides more resistance that further increases the contact resistance leading to additional power loss in a higher heat and is that a process assuming it is given the use
02:16:39 a process assuming it is given the use of the word buildup that's a process a problem which gets worse with time yes now am i right and understanding that prolonged overheating can lead to the ignition of nearby wire installations is
02:16:52 ignition of nearby wire installations is that a fare of general summary yes what you end up with in a loose connector like this is a basically a glowing connection it's hot it's glowing Karen
02:17:04 connection it's hot it's glowing Karen is trying to pass through the voids and any wire insulation in proximity to that this is a suspect to ignition igniting
02:17:15 this is a suspect to ignition igniting the insulation on the wires and it's the insulation of ran the wire so here would be the insulation which would have been round exhibit six Bravo is that right the wires that enter the crimp the
02:17:27 the wires that enter the crimp the connector have insulation on them the insulation is stripped off inside the barrel but outside of the connector you have the insulation on the wires which
02:17:38 have the insulation on the wires which is no longer visible here because the fire has burned off all the wire insulation can you help us apologies this further level of detail can you help us what material the insulation to the wire is
02:17:50 material the insulation to the wire is made of
02:17:51 made of it's basically typically a PVC type of insulating material electrical insulation and what sorts of temperature can PVC withstand they have different
02:18:04 can PVC withstand they have different ratings but typical one is 90 degrees C thank you now mister also apologies dr. Glover are you able to keep on going
02:18:16 Glover are you able to keep on going till one o'clock or would you like a break
02:18:17 break at your pleasure I I can continue me you've been going for an hour I just wondered whether you appreciate a break at this juncture it's it's your decision sir
02:18:26 sir well should we have can I suggest that if you're comfortable keeping going we'll keep going and see how we get on if necessary we can stop yes thanks oh
02:18:38 if necessary we can stop yes thanks oh right thank you dr. pepper thank you for that know if I may now turn to the topic of the short circuits in the fridge freezer and if I could ask you to turn to page 13 of the addendum and in
02:18:49 to page 13 of the addendum and in particular figure 7 which I referred to earlier wrong now again just so that I can orientate myself and those listening
02:19:01 can orientate myself and those listening at the outset am i right to describe your new hypothesis thus that there was a short circuit between an energized internal wire and a neutral wire I'm sorry could you repeat that of course is
02:19:14 sorry could you repeat that of course is it right to characterize your hypothesis thus there was a short circuit between an energized internal wire and a neutral wire and that process is illustrated in Figure 7 yes sir thank you now apologies
02:19:28 Figure 7 yes sir thank you now apologies could I ask you to turn back to page 12 of the addendum and the third paragraph on that page which starts with the words figure 7 mm if I may invite you just to
02:19:40 figure 7 mm if I may invite you just to read that to yourself first of all okay and there you refer to the clicks and overload relay and that's the clicks on overload relay you
02:19:51 overload relay you - earlier on in your evidence when describing the the real a yes sir
02:20:00 now you also say in this paragraph on page 12 that the result of the short circuit you identified there is that the magnitude of current quotes is not limited by the compressor motor or
02:20:12 limited by the compressor motor or clicks an overload relay would therefore be in the order of hundreds of amp ere's which for the reasons you've outlined earlier would be sufficient to trip for thirty-two amp circuit breaker for
02:20:23 thirty-two amp circuit breaker for circuit number seven now I think it would be useful just at this juncture to understand again how does the compressor motor and the clicks and overload relay
02:20:37 motor and the clicks and overload relay serve to limit the magnitude of the current under normal operation okay if we could go to figure seven I could explain that all could we go to page 13
02:20:51 dr. Glover before you take us through the process the stenographer has to violently identify for the record that which is visible to all of us and so if
02:21:03 which is visible to all of us and so if you're able to describe each stage before you take us to it that would greatly help this not before I think yes so just to familiarize ourselves so this
02:21:17 so just to familiarize ourselves so this is the power supply wires are two of them that come from the power supply quarter these main supply flex that supplies power to the refrigerator the energized wire goes up and connects to
02:21:29 energized wire goes up and connects to the control board and if they were current going to the compressor by the way here's the compressor it's Co you
02:21:41 way here's the compressor it's Co you can see the flow of electrical current goes up to the control board and when the control board so chooses its since it provides current that comes down through an energized wire goes through
02:21:52 through an energized wire goes through the clicks on overload relay into the compressor motor and then returns through that run capacitor down here that's the
02:22:04 run capacitor down here that's the normal path of currently I'm showing a different path for a short circuit now before talking about the short circuit that I'm showing here let's talk about a
02:22:16 that I'm showing here let's talk about a short circuit over at the motor capacitor suppose there were the motor run capacitor had a short circuit then the current would flow through the clicks on relay through the compressor
02:22:27 clicks on relay through the compressor and then through the motor the shorted motor run capacitor wires how however you've got two limiting factors here the
02:22:38 you've got two limiting factors here the overload relay would sense that and and then shut off or switch down and also the come the compressor itself is a large resistance that would limit the
02:22:50 large resistance that would limit the short-circuit current if you did have a short-circuit over in this region to very small amount perhaps a few amperes that would not be
02:23:01 perhaps a few amperes that would not be sufficient to melt the the wires okay or cause an arc problem would be limited here however I'm showing a different short circuit I'm showing a short
02:23:13 short circuit I'm showing a short circuit on the front end of the compressor relay compartment between an energized wire and a neutral wire and you can see that this short circuit path bypasses both of the the clicks on relay
02:23:27 bypasses both of the the clicks on relay the overload relay as Wesch as well as the compressor itself and the run capacitor in that case what do you have to limit the current you have the wiring
02:23:38 to limit the current you have the wiring of the circuit number seven small fraction of an ohm you have the power supply cord for the fridge freezer again small fraction of 1 ohm you have the
02:23:50 small fraction of 1 ohm you have the internal wiring harness a small fraction and in fact the majority of the resistance is in the arc itself within the short circuit typically about 1 ohm
02:24:04 the short circuit typically about 1 ohm of much larger than all of those other limiting factors which are small fractions of a known so if you think of one oh now I have to give you another
02:24:15 one oh now I have to give you another formula current is voltage divided by current Ohm's law it's a pretty simple circuit we're supplying this fridge freezer with 230 240 volts the standard
02:24:29 freezer with 230 240 volts the standard voltage in the United Kingdom and if you think of 240 volts and 1 ohm Ohm's law would give you two hundred forty amperes
02:24:40 would give you two hundred forty amperes 240 volts divided by 1 ohm so this path you you're not limited by the compressor you know limited by the clicks on overload relay you're gonna have a large
02:24:51 overload relay you're gonna have a large amount of current and then that's either going to cause the 32 amp circuit breaker for circuits seven to trip or the fuse the 13 e appear fuse to blow
02:25:02 the fuse the 13 e appear fuse to blow and as I mentioned earlier there are many cases where the 32 ampere circuit breaker will operate the trip before the fuse box
02:25:14 fuse box it's flowing home from that last answer you say in the same paragraph on page 12 that the 32 amp circuit breaker would trip quote without a blown 13 amp ere fuse in the plug for the fridge freezer
02:25:26 fuse in the plug for the fridge freezer main supply effect flex just as to deal with it point by point disease matters are quite technical can you please explain why you say that you would expect this scenario not to result in a
02:25:38 expect this scenario not to result in a 13 amp fuse in the plug for the fridge freezer to blow it's very common when you have 13 eeeh perfuses for appliances
02:25:49 you have 13 eeeh perfuses for appliances not to blow simply because the 32 amp circuit breaker operates faster it's going to be a race one of them's gonna be tripped one of them is gonna operate
02:26:01 be tripped one of them is gonna operate first but in many cases the circuit breaker will trip before the 13 ampere fuse blows 'as I did explain that in section one of my report but
02:26:12 section one of my report but it does bear some analysis thank you now can we now turn to the relationship between the scenario you posited here and arc damage MJS warned now in this
02:26:25 and arc damage MJS warned now in this short circuit scenario where would you expect to have to find the electrical arc damage so here is the run capacitor
02:26:41 arc damage so here is the run capacitor we saw that the run capacitor in the exemplar fridge as well as in the subject fridge from flat 16 the run capacitor wires had 24 strands okay
02:26:52 capacitor wires had 24 strands okay this neutral and so they run along the neutral gear so when you have an arc here from the energized wire by the way that was 23 strands and 14 strands if
02:27:03 that was 23 strands and 14 strands if you recall jdg six Bravo arcing to 24 strand wires now as I mentioned before MJS one was not found within the subject
02:27:16 MJS one was not found within the subject fridge/freezer it was found in the bedroom but these wires that go with the fridge freezer for the run capacitor are consistent
02:27:27 for the run capacitor are consistent with that MJS one the juice I understand this your postulating that the energized wire shown in your diagram is sufficiently close to the neutral wire
02:27:40 sufficiently close to the neutral wire in terms of physical proximity for a knot to occur between them yes no this is this is a circuit diagram oh cool so you see if what appears to be a large
02:27:51 you see if what appears to be a large space and all of these wires enter a relay compartment now close proximity to each other yes thank you thank you
02:28:02 each other yes thank you thank you but Delft with the next questions I was gonna ask so could I ask let's get search base 13 of the addendum and it's the only paragraph on that page now here uuu
02:28:16 now here uuu note that in your view that the short circuits Nureyev outlined on the previous page would not cause the our cc beat trip is that a fair summary yes could you take us through just your
02:28:28 could you take us through just your reasoning for coming to that conclusion okay once again would it help if we put up figure 7 again for you that's good fix if you could blow figure 7 up expand it you see the arc which is
02:28:43 7 up expand it you see the arc which is that red short-circuit that I've annotated in red the blue and the red is my is my artwork the rest of the diagram is whirlpool circuit diagram so I've in
02:28:58 is whirlpool circuit diagram so I've in etat annotated a short circuit from an energized wire to a neutral one and now I've lost track what was your question
02:29:10 I've lost track what was your question it's just really understanding why use your reasoning for concluding why in the short short-circuit scenario it wouldn't cause the our CC bead trip
02:29:22 cause the our CC bead trip it's just understanding why thank you so much so here we have a short circuit from an energized wire to a neutral wire RFC CB circuit breakers do not trip do
02:29:36 RFC CB circuit breakers do not trip do not operate for what we call a line an energized line to neutral short-circuit the only trip when the ground grounding wire or some metallic
02:29:48 wire or some metallic path to ground is involved so if electrical current leaves an energized wire and somehow flows to ground or to a grounded metal plate then the RCC B
02:30:01 grounded metal plate then the RCC B would
02:30:02 would pick that up it would detect it and it would trip but in this case the RCC B would see current coming in current
02:30:13 would see current coming in current coming out even though it's a very high value could be a short-circuit it's coming in the energized wire going up going out the neutral wire the RCC sees a balance of zero it doesn't see a net
02:30:24 a balance of zero it doesn't see a net current flowing to a ground path and so it does not trip understood now I think I'm writing saying that your view is that the RCC be tripped later but before mr. Kabaddi turned off the main switch
02:30:36 mr. Kabaddi turned off the main switch is that again a fair if general summary of your view yes and that you say it's probable that this was a result of essentially smoke and smoke particles attacking an energized socket is that
02:30:48 attacking an energized socket is that right yes so circuit seven is tripped so all of the sockets in the kitchen and the circuit second circuit seven wiring
02:30:59 the circuit second circuit seven wiring are now D energized but the RCC B is looking at two circuits seven and eight and eight circuit eight are the other flat sockets and so if those other flat
02:31:12 flat sockets and so if those other flat sockets in circuit eight if one or more of them were attacked by fire by smoke by smoke particles then knowing that smoke smoke particles soot are all
02:31:27 smoke smoke particles soot are all electrically conductive carbonaceous material if if socket and circuit eight which is still energized before mr.
02:31:38 which is still energized before mr. Kapiti turns off that Britt main red switch is attacked by smoke and smoke particles then you could have a small current by the way the RCC B circuit
02:31:50 current by the way the RCC B circuit breaker operates for a very small threshold of current 30 milli amperes that would be 0.03 amperes it doesn't take much for that RC CB circuit to trip
02:32:03 take much for that RC CB circuit to trip and in my opinion that smoke soot and smoke particles quite likely caused in circuit eight to trip in a later time
02:32:14 in circuit eight to trip in a later time before cab et turns out the red switch looking at that dr. Glover we've noted and you've noted that smoke and smoke particles are conductive what is less
02:32:28 particles are conductive what is less clear is how precisely smoke smoke particles are likely to have led the current flow to the ground receiver that could you help us
02:32:40 receiver that could you help us understand that process so if you look within a socket or if you think of you when you plug your three pin your three-pronged plug into a socket one of
02:32:53 three-pronged plug into a socket one of them is the ground prong that's the depends on it's the single one and above it are the energized prong the livewire prong and the neutral prong they're all
02:33:04 prong and the neutral prong they're all in fairly close proximity the receivers within the socket that accept those prongs okay so let's suppose you have a socket
02:33:15 okay so let's suppose you have a socket that is nothing's plugged into it smoke gets into that socket the holes for the three prongs of the plug and the smoke
02:33:27 three prongs of the plug and the smoke deposits bridge the gap between the receiver for the energized portion to the ground then you have that ground
02:33:39 the ground then you have that ground path that would trip an RC CV now are you able to give us an idea as to the quantity of smoke or smoke particles that would be necessary to produce this
02:33:51 that would be necessary to produce this effect
02:33:59 I don't think I could want to fight it for you only all you need are smoke particles sought to get into the socket
02:34:10 particles sought to get into the socket receivers and bridge that small gap distance it would I guess I have to go back to the 30 Mille amperes it would be a have to be enough sort and smoke
02:34:21 a have to be enough sort and smoke deposits to cause the conduction of at least 30 Mille amperes but if you want milligrams like I would not be able to qualify that quantify that without doing
02:34:32 qualify that quantify that without doing some experiments now staying with this question of the density of smoke could I ask you to call if you mind turning to page 14 of the addendum it's really the
02:34:43 page 14 of the addendum it's really the third line of the third paragraph on that page and it's a point we've reversed to earlier on you say this it's probable that smoke and smoke particles having next to the kitchen attacked an
02:34:54 having next to the kitchen attacked an energized socket and then you you quote an extract from Miss confuse witness statement now at the bottom of page 14 of footnote 4 you acknowledge that the
02:35:07 of footnote 4 you acknowledge that the two other occupants of flat 16 didn't necessarily agree with Miss Kim food recollection of smoke was in the corridor now can you help us with this point why have you placed greater weight
02:35:18 point why have you placed greater weight on the evidence of miss Kim foo as opposed to at the two other former residents of flat 16 yes so when I read miss Kim Foos statement she was very
02:35:35 miss Kim Foos statement she was very explicit in her perception that there were smoke in the Carter she was awoken from her bedroom and she says in her statement that she didn't smell or sense
02:35:51 statement that she didn't smell or sense any smoke in the bedroom but once she headed exited the bedroom door opened the bedroom door and entered the Carter within flat 16 then she sensed smoke she
02:36:03 within flat 16 then she sensed smoke she sensed it in three ways she smelled it she said she even tasted it if you read her statement and she's sorry and all of
02:36:17 her statement and she's sorry and all of this is going on so you can see I opened the bedroom door and I could smell something different not normal here it was different it was like a burning smell and like a chemical smell and I
02:36:28 smell and like a chemical smell and I could taste it I could not smell it in my room when the door was closed I went to the corridor of the flat and saw smoke a smoke was MIA near to the front door which is at
02:36:39 MIA near to the front door which is at the other end of the corridor from the kitchen I could still see the front door I was shocked and I can't recall if I could see the other end of the car to any of the kitchen the lights and the flat were off but light was coming into
02:36:51 flat were off but light was coming into the front door and everything seemed cloudy so you have these quite an explicit memory that she is recording here three different ways that she
02:37:02 here three different ways that she observes smoke now the other two witnesses Mystica Bedi I remember he was preoccupied with waking up his fellow roommates mrs. Keane foo and Mustapha
02:37:15 roommates mrs. Keane foo and Mustapha worki and also going outside to wake up the other occupants of the other flats on the 4th floor and then going back into his apartment and getting dressed picking up his cell phone turning off
02:37:27 picking up his cell phone turning off the main red switch and then vacating he was also calling what it's not nine eleven nine nine nine he here so he
02:37:38 eleven nine nine nine he here so he there were other things on his mind miss Kim foo Hauer is very explicit in her recalling the smoke in that corridor before she baked in now following on
02:37:51 before she baked in now following on from that point if I could ask Paul to the amplify that but amplified footnote four and in the second sentence in respect to mr. Kabir you say he also
02:38:02 respect to mr. Kabir you say he also states Lee is not sure if he closed the kitchen door behind him or not now stopping there were you aware of the thermal-imaging camera footage taken by the first responder firefighter
02:38:14 taken by the first responder firefighter first responders when they entered flat 16 and that it suddenly appeared from that footage that the kitchen door was closed
02:38:23 closed were you aware of that footage is my was yes and given that footage what effect does that have on your analysis of the amount of smoke that could have escaped
02:38:34 amount of smoke that could have escaped the kitchen and got into the hallway thereby triggering the scenario which you've posited in the addendum well I hope you have to consider the possibility certainly was open at one time when mr. kabiri looked into the
02:38:46 time when mr. kabiri looked into the kitchen and observed the fire on the east end of the kitchen near the fridge freezer I doesn't remember where the reclose it was it fully closed or was it ajar when the fire department came in so
02:39:00 ajar when the fire department came in so the so those are issues I have I have in could somehow and some other means that kitchen door have been left open by mr. cavity and then closed in some other way
02:39:11 cavity and then closed in some other way due to fire eat or someone else its possibilities I don't have any answer I'm presumably inflation that you you you aren't able to assist us on the
02:39:23 you aren't able to assist us on the amount of smoke that may have escaped the kitchen into the hall fraught between the time of mr. kabiri first identifying the fire and making the 999
02:39:34 identifying the fire and making the 999 call yes right a quantifying that not able to an equally are not able to give us any idea about the amount of smoke that it would have escaped the kitchen into the hall between the first nine
02:39:46 into the hall between the first nine nine calls and mr. cab ad leaving the apartment no I can't distinguish looking at trying to understand the mechanism by which the the short-circuit occurred are
02:39:59 which the the short-circuit occurred are you able to assist us with how long the smoke would need to be at or in the area of the socket in order to penetrate the inner workings and and trigger the snare you posted it's almost instantaneous
02:40:11 you posted it's almost instantaneous once the smoke and soot particles enter the socket and bridge the gap between the ground receiver and the energized receiver the RCC trips
02:40:22 and the energized receiver the RCC trips very rapidly within milliseconds
02:40:26 thank you could we now come on to the separate topic of the role of six FIFA Bravo in your scenario and you can clewd
02:40:37 Bravo in your scenario and you can clewd and we can turn to page 15 of the addendum just to orientate you from your conclusions you conclude that it's probable that the overheating of six bravo caused the foreign in flat 16 is
02:40:50 bravo caused the foreign in flat 16 is that a fair summary of the conclusion you reached in the addendum yes sir thank you now can you explain for us the relationship between the overheating of six Bravo and the short-circuit you've
02:41:01 six Bravo and the short-circuit you've set out in figure seven or do you think you've covered it in the evidence you've already given okay so you have the overheating within the crimp for yes civet jdg six B as in Bravo
02:41:13 civet jdg six B as in Bravo and that becomes a glowing connection over time as the oxide builds up and the resistance builds up and the power losses increase and once you get that
02:41:25 losses increase and once you get that glowing connection you have the possibility of igniting the wire installations now you have a fire going on within the compressor relay compartment so now it's a matter of time
02:41:37 compartment so now it's a matter of time to bridge that gap between the energized wire that's six JD g six B and the neutral wire to cause a short circuit
02:41:50 neutral wire to cause a short circuit and those wires are in close proximity to each other within the relay compartment it's just a matter of time before the installations are burned off both of those wires causing a line to
02:42:04 both of those wires causing a line to neutral short strip apologies for asking what might be a simple question but is it the overheating which causes the ignition or is it the electrical arcing
02:42:15 ignition or is it the electrical arcing or is that a false distinction in overheating in the crimp starts the fire it overheats it glows it ignites we
02:42:26 it overheats it glows it ignites we don't have a short-circuit yet it's kind of what you call series arcing through those voids you have glowing electricity luminous electricity flowing through
02:42:38 luminous electricity flowing through those voids it creates heat that ignites the insulation on the wires before you have a short circuit that would trip the circuit breaker thanks very much dr. Glover and now turn to part three of the
02:42:50 Glover and now turn to part three of the questions that I'd like to ask you in respect to the addendum and that's the more specific questions regarding the reasoning and Paul if you could put down
02:43:01 reasoning and Paul if you could put down the addendum and return to dr. Glover's report and page 57 of that report if possible
02:43:17 and you say in the substantive paragraph underneath halfway point you say it and
02:43:28 underneath halfway point you say it and I quote it is concluded that arc damage exhibits mgs worn and JD g1 are consistent with a wire from either the run capacitor or an internal jumper wire within the relay Department at bps for I
02:43:40 within the relay Department at bps for I think this is an extract we looked at earlier when discussing your analysis of the large food freezer now having read that could I ask you to turn back to your addendum and page 9 of the addendum
02:43:58 and if we look at the top paragraph
02:44:07 it says this bigger SiC shows off damaged exhibit jdg one which I found within the medium-sized freezer during my 27 April 2018 inspection of Bureau Veritas there are two possibilities for
02:44:19 Veritas there are two possibilities for the location of jdg one at the time of the fire
02:44:23 the fire either warm JTG one remained within the medium-sized freezer or two jdg one was initially located outside the medium-sized freeze at the time the fire and was inadvertently moved into the medium freezer during or after
02:44:35 medium freezer during or after subsequent firefighting efforts now to the lay reader that suggests that you are less definite that jdg one formed
02:44:47 are less definite that jdg one formed part of the large fridge freezer what would be your response to that observation okay so at the time that I
02:44:58 observation okay so at the time that I concluded my report my 15 October report I hadn't focused on the crimp connector with the voids jdg 6b once I saw the
02:45:13 with the voids jdg 6b once I saw the voids when it was able to reduce my addendum I went back and considered the to arc damage exhibits that were found in flat 16 MJS 1j d g 1j DG 1 i found in
02:45:30 in flat 16 MJS 1j d g 1j DG 1 i found in the medium-sized freezer and we know that there was a problem mr. cavity Kabini had a problem a fuse was blown many years before the 2017 fire and
02:45:44 many years before the 2017 fire and putting that together and now looking at further looking at JD g 6 excuse me JT g1 that arced damage wire which has really three wires with 24 strands in
02:45:59 really three wires with 24 strands in that would be not quite as consistent as MJS one which had only two wires now that goes back to the motor run capacitor in the fridge freezer that has
02:46:12 capacitor in the fridge freezer that has two wires in it and both of those have 24 strands so upon looking at jdg one which had two wires but then a third wire segments in
02:46:23 wires but then a third wire segments in between that to me made it less likely that that could have been in the fridge freezer more likely that that came from the medium-sized freezer due to a prior event many years before the 2017 fire so
02:46:38 event many years before the 2017 fire so I ended up concluding that the likelihood of arc damage would have been associated with MJS one within the
02:46:49 associated with MJS one within the fridge freezer what would be your response to the suggestion that it's a at least a possibility that MJS one was once part of the medium freezer first of
02:47:06 once part of the medium freezer first of all we have go back to that basic clue we have circuits circuits seven that tripped on the night of the fire okay we only have two part damaged exhibits that
02:47:18 only have two part damaged exhibits that would be sufficient to trip the circuit breaker for circuit number seven we just have to we have MJS 1 we have jdg 1 now having excluded jdg 1 as having come
02:47:32 having excluded jdg 1 as having come from a prior event we are only left with one arc damaged exhibit from that a flat from flat 16 that could have tripped circuit number 7
02:47:46 following on from that is the wire you've identified as mgs1 the only electrical component that you believe is from the fridge/freezer that wasn't found near the large food freezer yes the only first of all it's
02:48:01 freezer yes the only first of all it's the only art damaged one excluding jdg one and all these other exhibits like JD g6 B's and Bravo and all those were found within the fridge freezer no
02:48:12 found within the fridge freezer no apologies for jumping around if I think we wrapped the addendum at the moment if I could ask Paul to turn to page 10 of the addendum and you state there the
02:48:25 the addendum and you state there the third paragraph on on that page with evidence that exhibit J dg1 arced at a prior time unrelated to the fire now stopping there can you identify for us
02:48:39 stopping there can you identify for us what the evidence is that you rely upon for concluding that JD g1 arced before the fire this would be basically mr. Kapadia statement that he had a problem with the medium freezer many years
02:48:52 with the medium freezer many years before the fire he called in a tactician technician from the yellow pages and he had a specific memory of this technician told him there was a bad fuse mr. Kapiti
02:49:03 told him there was a bad fuse mr. Kapiti didn't want to fix the problem at that time but he continued to preserve the medium freezer that would be the basic evidence we have that there was a prior event that caused
02:49:14 that there was a prior event that caused a fuse to blow apologies for pressing the point but can you given that you've considered that Jady Jady g1 r before the fire why do
02:49:26 Jady Jady g1 r before the fire why do you exclude the possibility that the damage to mgs1 was arc damage sustained before the fire
02:49:38 what I'm saying is that once again we're left with one piece of art damage that would have been sufficient to trip the circuit breaker for circuit number seven that's MJS one so that's how I conclude
02:49:52 that's MJS one so that's how I conclude that it was somehow at one point it was connected to circuit seven that it was energized from circuit seven within the kitchen now I'm assuming that this is an
02:50:06 kitchen now I'm assuming that this is an electrical fire as I mentioned I'm not a cause and our g.x expert I have no opinion on whether this was caused a non electrical fire caused by a lit candle
02:50:18 electrical fire caused by a lit candle or a smoke smoldering cigarette I'm assuming we have an electrical fire here and I'll leave it to the fire investigators to tell the the inquiry whether this was an electrical this was
02:50:31 whether this was an electrical this was a non electrical fire so if we have an electrical fire we're left with MJS one the only part damn you exhibit that in my opinion could have tripped circuits seven for the kitchen and that would
02:50:44 seven for the kitchen and that would happen before the fire obviously we have an abnormal electrical event trips a circuit breaker fire starts maybe I should have asked this question earlier on but it flows from what you've just
02:50:55 on but it flows from what you've just said is whilst we have the benefit of the guidance you identified in the damage assessment memo we have the listing of the nine characteristics of
02:51:07 listing of the nine characteristics of arc damage how straightforward is it to identify arc damage as a general proposition it does take experience it's someone who
02:51:22 it does take experience it's someone who has experience looking at arc damaged wires has reviewed the literature I've mentioned NFPA 921 the guide to fire investigations and there are some very
02:51:35 investigations and there are some very explicit we listed nine of them
02:51:40 things to look for the fine line of demarcation between the localized damaged and the undamaged the copper beads our feeds the opposing wire you've
02:51:54 beads our feeds the opposing wire you've got to have art from one to another all of these things I saw the clear evidence of art damage to MJS one now can I move
02:52:08 of art damage to MJS one now can I move on to a separate topic which is going looking at more particular about mgs1 again now it may well assist if we put up a photo poor which can be found at
02:52:22 up a photo poor which can be found at wpl a quadruple zero double zero three two three four an internal page 23
02:52:37 can I just didn't you still happy going on yes sir you don't need to break it this is actually convenient place to stop it well I mean I just wanted to
02:52:48 stop it well I mean I just wanted to make sure that dr. Glover wasn't sitting there thinking I'm fine you fine I think we're having some difficulty locating
02:53:00 we're having some difficulty locating the photo at the moment Paul do you have the references wpl quadruple zero zero
02:53:13 the references wpl quadruple zero zero three two three four
02:53:23 they're gay and if we could go to page 29 you're at page 23 their city's gone six pages using the relativity numbering
02:53:34 six pages using the relativity numbering there we go and we've if we can amplify figure eight
02:53:43 now apologies just for context it's necessary to rehash question I asked earlier but is the design of the compressor in the exemplar which is
02:53:54 compressor in the exemplar which is shown there is that different to the wand you found in the large fridge freezer and flat 16 yes this is an exemplar and the way you identify this
02:54:09 exemplar and the way you identify this particular compressor is there is a there's a blue logo logo it's actually in this company the logo of this company
02:54:21 in this company the logo of this company companies to come sir and that sorry to interrupt you dr. global is there's a the compressor unit which sits roughly in the middle of the photograph there's two labels in the center of the compressor yes looking at the top label
02:54:34 compressor yes looking at the top label and there's a blue logo to the far left hand side correct so this is the compressor there are two labels on the compressor there's a warning label below and they're Rosalia manufacturers label
02:54:47 and they're Rosalia manufacturers label and in the upper left corner there is Abel what I call a blue logo that is the logo of to come so it's actually a Native American headdress to come sir
02:55:01 Native American headdress to come sir Tec um seh is a Native American name so this is not the Umbra chol compressor that was within the subject
02:55:12 that was within the subject fridge/freezer from flat 60 understood is the design of the exemplar different to the design of the index
02:55:23 to the design of the index fridge/freezer that was in the kitchen of flat 16 not significantly No you have the compressor the to the left of that you have the what we've been calling the compressor relay compartment
02:55:38 calling the compressor relay compartment this is a plastic enclosure that plugs into the compressor both of these features there might be some small differences would be look would be apply
02:55:49 differences would be look would be apply to the to come sir model that you see here as well as the undergo you also have the run capacitor over here which runs into the compressor relay compartment
02:56:00 compartment these are all general they would apply to both models would there be any difference in the wiring layout of the index fridge freezer and the exemplar
02:56:11 index fridge freezer and the exemplar fridge freezer there there are some differences as I mentioned the wiring harness with five wires that come down
02:56:24 harness with five wires that come down from within the freezer is slightly different from this exemplar it's still five wires but one of them the wires are within a cord with another jacket and for the other they're not the the actual
02:56:38 for the other they're not the the actual size of the compressor real a compartment might be different for both but generally they're similar now all the components within the
02:56:49 now all the components within the compressor relay compartment enclosed within the housing the housing is to the left of the compressor yes that's a yes yes those would be the two relays the P
02:57:03 yes those would be the two relays the P T seat relay in the clicks on relay and the wires and wire connectors now Paul can you put a wave that photograph and put up a separate photograph which is
02:57:15 put up a separate photograph which is met quadruple zero nine zero four seven
02:57:24 you know I think and hope and expect this as a post fire photograph a compressor relay is that right yes this this is not one of my photos but this is
02:57:37 this is not one of my photos but this is the compressor and stiff I can stop you there hopefully that also shows exhibit six Bravo is that right on this front as
02:57:51 six Bravo is that right on this front as we're visualizing here if you looked at the rear of the refrigerator it would be on the left but we're facing the compressor relay compartment the plastic enclosure as now is now missing it's
02:58:04 enclosure as now is now missing it's been consumed in the fire and what you are looking at are up here I believe is the clicks on relay down up here and down here is the PTC it's hard to see
02:58:17 down here is the PTC it's hard to see and there are a number of wires with connectors on them one of them is JD G's 6 B as in Bravo as well as JD g 6 a and
02:58:28 6 B as in Bravo as well as JD g 6 a and 6 C and the other all of those wires came from this area which was Exhibit B ps4 the compressor from the fridge
02:58:40 ps4 the compressor from the fridge freezer in flat 16 thank you doctor and just a flow from that are you able to confirm that you've examined all the wires that are illustrated in this photograph
02:58:53 okay now I never saw this as it is in this photo this was then disassembled during laboratory investigations that I
02:59:04 during laboratory investigations that I was not present yet and certain items were put into certain evidence bags Ziploc bags and labeled with different
02:59:15 Ziploc bags and labeled with different different components and so I was looking at various components that were taken from this compressor relay compartment were they all there
02:59:27 compartment were they all there everything I looked at everything that was shown to me and I carefully examined everything that was presented to me can I say that there's something here that I didn't look at I can't say that and
02:59:40 didn't look at I can't say that and that's because the next question is you know did you find any arc damage on the was that you believed to have come from the compressor relay no there was no arc damage the only arc damage was MJS 1 and
02:59:55 damage the only arc damage was MJS 1 and j DG 1
02:59:57 j DG 1 can I ask Paul to put away that photograph and return to your addendum dr. Glover and could ask you to turn to page 5 of that addendum I really now
03:00:12 page 5 of that addendum I really now turn to some specific questions regarding the various exhibits Illustrated there and figure war and the first question is this worth 6 a and 6 C and the longest war from 6 F from the
03:00:26 and the longest war from 6 F from the road and the longest war from 6 F from the run capacitor as they are all 24 strand conductors the short answer to that is yes if you look at JD g 6a in
03:00:39 that is yes if you look at JD g 6a in the lower right corner that's a connector and the CT scans that show that that we're 24 strands of a wire within JD g 6 a moving to the center JD
03:00:50 within JD g 6 a moving to the center JD g 6 c is another connector with a wire in it and the CT scan showed that there were 24 strands associated with that connector and wire and then there's a
03:01:01 connector and wire and then there's a third wire here at JD g 6f I believe it's this one the other wires that did not have a connector associate associated with it was just a wire segment also had 24
03:01:13 was just a wire segment also had 24 strands and by process of elimination I concluded that those were basically running capacitor wires and would days was have been being contained within the
03:01:26 was have been being contained within the compressor relay compartment in my opinion yes JD g6 C and a are definitely
03:01:37 opinion yes JD g6 C and a are definitely right in the compressor relay compartment and of course they're wire segments now I would associated this twenty-fourth strand wire over here with
03:01:49 twenty-fourth strand wire over here with this connector because this simply there's nothing left so some there had to be a wire here it's most likely that it was this F which also has 24 strands this jdg 6c has a connector but also has
03:02:03 this jdg 6c has a connector but also has a wire with 24 strands so I would put these definitely right within the compressor relay now tying this together with MJS one in previous answers you've
03:02:14 with MJS one in previous answers you've confirmed that the length of a MJS one was 10 centimeters or approximately there abouts do you think or have you concluded that mgs1 was located within the compressor relay compartment I have
03:02:28 the compressor relay compartment I have concluded that it is it is most likely it is probable that the fused area of MJS 1 was located in the compressor relay compartment to the left of that
03:02:40 relay compartment to the left of that fuse area it are seven eight nine centimeters that most likely projected out of the relay compartment and were headed toward the run capacitor would it
03:02:53 headed toward the run capacitor would it help if we went back to look at some photos of mgs1 yes Paul could you put this down could you go back to JD G our treble zero trouble zero six underscore
03:03:08 treble zero trouble zero six underscore double zero two
03:03:14 so jdg our trouble zero trouble zero six that's the one now if we could amplify I think the top figure dr. Glover is probably the most helpful is that right
03:03:26 probably the most helpful is that right I would take the the bottom figure simply because there is a scale on there okay if we could amplify the bottom one and dr. Glover can you confirm for us
03:03:39 and dr. Glover can you confirm for us the fuse section I think you were saying correct me if I'm wrong the few section was contained that you think within the the relay yes here's the section about
03:03:52 the relay yes here's the section about one and a half seventy centimeters from this end of MJS one in my opinion that was located within the compressor relay compartment of the fridge freezer and
03:04:04 compartment of the fridge freezer and the rest extruded at some point this would have exited the compressor relay compartment and continued on to the run capacitor which is further over to the left behind the lower rear in the fridge
03:04:16 left behind the lower rear in the fridge freezer thank you and if you take away that photo and return to the addendum and figure one at page five we ask a
03:04:30 and figure one at page five we ask a question is it possible to have a split screen and show to both of those figures at the same time this is he says optimistically
03:04:47 thank you thank you both now given the analysis you've carried out Paul if I could ask you to amplify that thank you figure one on the left-hand side are you
03:04:58 figure one on the left-hand side are you able to say whether mgs1 is the continuation of the capacitor wires 6c and 6f basically yes I can you help us why you can say that
03:05:11 I can you help us why you can say that what you think you can say that so 6c and 6a these are connectors these are the current connectors those will plug in within the reel a compressor
03:05:25 in within the reel a compressor compartment they had to be these connectors had to be within the compressor real a connected component that not a start okay the next question therefore is which end of MJS warmth
03:05:37 therefore is which end of MJS warmth illustrated in the right-hand box would have been closer to the broken wire 6 C + 6 F okay so here's my analysis let's take 6 C this is within the real a
03:05:49 take 6 C this is within the real a compartment here's the wire yeah it's about 7 centimeters if you look at this scale it's about 7 centimeters of wire that would have been connected in my opinion to the right end about which
03:06:02 my opinion to the right end about which itself is one and a half centimeters from the fused area of MJS one so here's 6 C which this wire would connect to one of these wires and here's
03:06:14 connect to one of these wires and here's 6a which connects to this wire also with 24 strands which then connects to the other wire on the right end of MJS one understood so what you end up with is
03:06:25 understood so what you end up with is about 7 centimeters here another centimeter and a half here 8 and 1/2 centimeters that's about 3.2 inches three inches of wire then in my opinion
03:06:36 three inches of wire then in my opinion would have fit quite comfortably within the compressor relay compartment thank you sir that is a very convenient point at which to break yes you seem to be
03:06:48 at which to break yes you seem to be getting on quiet we are not much further to go well the devil will stop at that point so we can all have some lunch there will be some questions after we when we come back
03:06:59 questions after we when we come back thank you so I'm going to ask you please not to talk about your evidence over the break and if you like to go with the O show we'll start again at 2 o'clock yes thank you thank you very much
03:07:22 two companies