Expert Evidence - Prof Nic Daied (28 November 2018)

Full transcript

00:08:21 you

00:10:45 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear from the inquiries expert on cause and origin of the fire yeah thanks certainly mayor called

00:10:57 yeah thanks certainly mayor called Professor Neve McDade thank you

00:11:14 I do solemnly sincerely and truly sincerely and truly declare and affirm

00:11:32 thank you very much professor sit down make yourself comfortable thank you very much

00:11:37 much yes mr. Cooney thanks it no first of all would you please confirm your name for the record my name is Nia Sinead McDade professor thank you very much for coming today to

00:11:48 thank you very much for coming today to give evidence is much appreciated now you have provided two reports a preliminary report date of the 29th of March of this year and a final report date of the first of November of this year is that right that's correct yes

00:12:00 year is that right that's correct yes now we dealt with the preliminary report when you gave evidence previously so I won't rehearse those matters again but is it right that your final report sets out your final conclusions regarding a

00:12:11 out your final conclusions regarding a the cause Norwich enough the initial fire within flat 16 on May 14th of June 2017 and be the spread of the fire once ignited within the flat itself that's correct yes thank you

00:12:23 correct yes thank you now in terms of your final report are the factual matters you've set out there true to the best of your knowledge and belief to the best of my knowledge and belief yes thank you and does your final report set out your opinions in relation

00:12:35 report set out your opinions in relation to the matters relevant to this inquiry yes it does and finally you've provided this report and the same way you would have done had it been a report for a court of law is that correct yes thank you professor

00:12:46 is that correct yes thank you professor if we could first deal with your qualifications and background and for people's reference in section 3 that's it page 4 of your final report and appendix 2 you outline your background

00:12:57 appendix 2 you outline your background and experience relevant to the matters you're dealing with in this inquiry I'm not going to go through this but would like to pick out the following details with you first of all you are currently the director of the Leverhulme Research

00:13:09 the director of the Leverhulme Research Centre for forensic science is that right yes that's correct and you've held a chair in forensic science at the University of Dundee since 2014 correct between 2011 2014 you held the chair and

00:13:22 between 2011 2014 you held the chair and forensic science at the University of Strathclyde yes that's correct and in 2017 you became a chartered chemist yes as two fellowships you're a fellow of a number of learned societies primarily

00:13:34 number of learned societies primarily the Royal Society of Edinburgh yes that's correct the Royal Society of Chemistry yes the chartered Society for forensic science yes and the Institute of chemistry of

00:13:45 yes and the Institute of chemistry of Ireland yes now amongst other prizes you've been awarded during career in 2018 is it right that you're awarded the distinguished forensic scientist award by the European network of forensic

00:13:57 by the European network of forensic science Institute's that's correct yes and in 2016 you're awarded the Pete Gansey award for service to far investigation by the UK AFI is that right yes that's correct

00:14:08 right yes that's correct can you help us what does UK AFI stand for it stands for the UK association of fire investigators it is the professional body for fire investigators in the UK thank you now in relation to

00:14:19 in the UK thank you now in relation to your other professional relevant experience is it right that you're currently a vice chair of the scientific advisory board of the International Criminal Court yes that's true and between 2013 and 16 new the chair of

00:14:32 between 2013 and 16 new the chair of Interpol's forensic science Managers symposium correct between 2012 and 2015 you're the chair of the e-m-f SI investigation working group is that

00:14:44 investigation working group is that right it's it was the fire investigation working group of n Street which is the European network of forensic science Institute's thank you and is it right the or the committee lead in the

00:14:55 the or the committee lead in the development of the UK national code of practice for fire scene investigations yes that's true and finally you're a member of the steering committee for the development and publication of judicial primers yes and that involves what

00:15:06 primers yes and that involves what exactly and the judicial primers are a project that were led by the senior judiciary in England and Wales so by the Lord Chief Justice of England Wales in collaboration with the two National

00:15:17 collaboration with the two National Academies the Royal Society and the Royal Society of Edinburgh and the role of the primers is to present the known position for a scientific discipline DNA

00:15:29 position for a scientific discipline DNA for example written by the leaders in the field and ratified by the councils of the National in order to facilitate an understanding by the judiciary of what the current

00:15:41 by the judiciary of what the current accepted science and our particular areas professor thank you now before I turn to your examination on the topics contained in your final report I should give a general warning to those in the

00:15:53 give a general warning to those in the room and watching elsewhere that a number of the photographs within your report that we will be looking at during the course of this morning will show images of burnt-out scenes and some

00:16:05 images of burnt-out scenes and some people may find these distressing when I come up to particular photos I shall endeavor to give a warning but at the outset could I just make that general note for everyone watching now professor

00:16:16 note for everyone watching now professor the first topic I'd like to cover with you is really in order to orientate everyone as to what the layout of the flat is and first of all if I could ask Ralph to draw up page 25 of your final

00:16:30 Ralph to draw up page 25 of your final report by the reference which is double ND s triple zero that's it and that is figure 11 now first of all does the flat

00:16:42 figure 11 now first of all does the flat 16 mark there in red in the top right-hand corner that identifies flat 16 is that right yes that's right and on the same page rather we can go to figure

00:16:53 the same page rather we can go to figure 12 this is a plan that you've drawn I think of the flat 16 itself it's a plan that I've taken from the previous figure and annotated so that I've labeled up

00:17:04 and annotated so that I've labeled up the different rooms in the flat thank you and as we see we have the kitchen in the bottom right hand corner the kitchen window identified on the far right side and then the living room to the north of

00:17:18 and then the living room to the north of the kitchen correct ruff thank you if we can now look at the layout of the kitchen of flat 16 if we can turn to figure 13 on page 26 first

00:17:30 can turn to figure 13 on page 26 first of all just to confirm that's your approximation of the likely internal layout of the kitchen and flat 16 is that right yes that's great and if you could enable us to understand on what basis what evidence if you

00:17:42 on what basis what evidence if you relied upon for placing the various appliances where they're identified in this planet and the different appliances and their positions were presented in the diagram on the basis of

00:17:53 presented in the diagram on the basis of witness testimony from mr. Kameda and from the other occupants of the flat and also from the contemporary contemporaneous notes of the fire investigators and also finally from the

00:18:08 investigators and also finally from the information that was available within the thermal-imaging camera videos of the first firefighters that went in the final aspect of it was looking at the

00:18:19 final aspect of it was looking at the photographs that were taken by the first fire investigators who documented the scene thank you now in your report you advanced three hypotheses and just so that people are aware of what those hypotheses are hypostasis warned is that

00:18:32 hypotheses are hypostasis warned is that the fire in the tower started in the kitchen of flat 16 as opposed to any other flat in the tower is that right yes that's correct hypothesis two is that the fire started in the south east end of the kitchen the flat 16 as

00:18:44 end of the kitchen the flat 16 as opposed to elsewhere within the kitchen correct and when we talk about the south east end of what we're talking about is the end where the kitchen window

00:18:56 the end where the kitchen window approximate position they extract a fan the tall fridge freezer the cooker end of the kitchen yes that's correct and finally hypothesis 3 is that it's more likely than not that the fire start

00:19:07 more likely than not that the fire start in the southeast corner in the tall fridge freezer as opposed to any other appliance or item in the southeast corner of the kitchen of flat 16 correct thank you right if we can first turn to

00:19:18 thank you right if we can first turn to hypothesis 1 now Ralph if I could ask you to show professor McDade paragraph 8 point 8 point 11 which is at page 66 of

00:19:29 point 8 point 11 which is at page 66 of the final report and here you state your conclusion that and I quote all of the witness statements from the firefighters Fire Service personnel and occupants of

00:19:40 Fire Service personnel and occupants of flat 16 provides strong evidence that the fire in ground floor town the 14th of June 2017 started in the kitchen of flat 16 my first question is does that

00:19:51 flat 16 my first question is does that remain your view yes it does thank you now can we look briefly at the evidence upon which you've relied in reaching this

00:19:57 this now the first category of evidence is the evidence mr. Kabaddi and the other two occupants of flat 16 is that a fair summary yes that is and could I ask

00:20:08 summary yes that is and could I ask Ralph to put up on the screen paragraph eight point two point two at page 23 of the final report now

00:20:20 the final report now here you set out the relevant extracts from a nine nine nine core made by mr. Kabaddi at 0:54 is that right yes and where he says their fire in flat

00:20:35 yes and where he says their fire in flat 16 Grenville tower the fridge flat 16 Grenville tower that's the evidence upon which you've relied from that phone call yes it was the first phone call that was to my knowledge recorded by the London

00:20:46 to my knowledge recorded by the London Fire Brigade Thank You Ralph if you could put that amplification down and take us to page 65 and first of all of the final report

00:21:02 now here at paragraphs eight point eight point five onwards and Tony over the page of page 66 is it right that you've set out what you consider to be the relevant extraction the witness

00:21:13 relevant extraction the witness statements the former occupants of flat 16 which are pertinent to hypothesis one yes and can you draw out for us what you consider to be the key elements of the evidence upon which you've relied when

00:21:25 evidence upon which you've relied when the key elements here or the witnesses statement relating to what he saw once the smoke alarm or in the flat will come up so he reports having gone into his

00:21:38 up so he reports having gone into his kitchen or looked inside the kitchen and what he saw in regards to smoke within the kitchen area and then his direct actions following that observation which was to wake his his the other people in

00:21:49 was to wake his his the other people in the flat and two to exit the flat to try to wake up his neighbors and also to call the fire service thank you now the second category of evidence you

00:22:00 now the second category of evidence you rely upon is the evidence of the first responders is that a fair summary yes and if I could ask Ralph to take us to page 31 of your final report

00:22:14 and paragraph eight point five point eleven here you summarized the evidence of crew manager Charles batter B and in which he said he opened the door to the right leading into the kitchen of flat

00:22:26 right leading into the kitchen of flat sixteen a 2001 fourteen and he described the temperature change to be significant and thereon you see the evidence quoted D amplify that wrath and identify the

00:22:41 D amplify that wrath and identify the paragraph eight point five point thirteen you have the evidence of firefighter Daniel Brown who describes flame within now to correct you at

00:22:53 flame within now to correct you at sixteen if that could be d amplified wrath and if you could amplify paragraph eight point five point nineteen on page 35

00:23:10 and there we go you summarized the evidence of firefighters a Hanlon and Barton but primarily o'hanlan in which they identify the scene that they witnessed when they attended flat

00:23:22 they witnessed when they attended flat 16 is that right yes I think the sequence here is important so when and the first firefighters battery and brown entered the flat they searched the flat initially and the only place where they

00:23:34 initially and the only place where they found evidence of burning was in the kitchen having searched the rest of the property if I could stop you there may help you I'm professor Roth could you do five page 35 and go back to page 31

00:23:51 and on this page essentially you set out the key relevant evidence that you've relied upon for the initial stages of the very first first responders search

00:24:02 the very first first responders search that's correct thank you now the third category of evidence you cite in the report is the footage from the thermal image cameras held by the first responders is that right yes now Ralph if I can ask you to

00:24:16 right yes now Ralph if I can ask you to turn to page 32 of the report and in particular figure 19

00:24:27 professor I think we dealt with these stills when you gave evidence back in June but I think it would be useful if you could talk us through a B and C in

00:24:38 you could talk us through a B and C in that order what they show and what you derive from them so what you're looking at is on the left-hand side of the photographs is an unmarked up image that's the image that

00:24:50 unmarked up image that's the image that was directly taken from the thermal-imaging camera on the right hand side corresponding to each of those photographs so for a B and C I've placed what I believe to be the positioning of

00:25:01 what I believe to be the positioning of some of the appliances that were within the kitchen and if we take photograph a first or the two photographs connected with a first this was the first and this was the thermal imaging thermal image of

00:25:13 was the thermal imaging thermal image of a key part and captured by the T I see when the firefighters opened the kitchen door for what we understand to be the first time so that was at 14 minutes past 1:00 in the morning according to

00:25:26 past 1:00 in the morning according to the times that we have agreed what you see is looking down the photograph perhaps if I can stand up first if I

00:25:48 perhaps if I can stand up first if I could just stop you there just for the transcript what you're pointing to is figure 19 a at the top left-hand photo yes thank you so the bit that I believe

00:25:59 yes thank you so the bit that I believe to be parked at the door is the black line on the right-hand side of the photograph as you look down into the room you see a yellow globe down towards the end thermal-imaging cameras show

00:26:12 the end thermal-imaging cameras show different colors by changing so different temperatures by changing the color so while it looks like again I'll go below that doesn't necessarily mean it's a flame it just simply means it's a higher temperature so as you look down

00:26:24 higher temperature so as you look down this this the room this is what the firefighters would have seen my interpretation of some of the somewhat grainy images within the photograph is that here which is about the middle

00:26:35 that here which is about the middle the photograph there's a shaded rounded area with an outline around it which I interpret to be the washing machine and then beside it a tall object that's

00:26:47 then beside it a tall object that's blocking the the increase color if you like on the tee I see which I believe to be the fridge freezer and if we look at the top right hand image you've there

00:26:59 the top right hand image you've there drawn in a dotted red line what you consider to be the tall fridge freezer and next with the washing machine is surprising yes we know that the washing machine in the tall fridge freezer

00:27:10 machine in the tall fridge freezer weren't beside each other but as you look down the the room the the positioning of the various appliances are distorted slightly just in terms of thank you if we could now move down to

00:27:21 thank you if we could now move down to figure 19 beef a Bravo what does the middle left-hand photo show us so in Figure 19 we're now we've now moved on by about 15 seconds only so this was the

00:27:33 by about 15 seconds only so this was the second opening of the door and by the firefighters and again looking if you're looking from the doorway they haven't entered the room yet and you're looking down towards the the window end of the property or of the

00:27:45 window end of the property or of the kitchen what you can observe is that the temperature has increased or at least the spread of the temperature has increased from the previous photograph and again I've placed some of the

00:27:58 and again I've placed some of the appliances in terms of where I have interpreted them to be and your interpretation of the location of the appliances is shown in the middle right-hand box that's correct and professor if I could ask you to turn

00:28:09 and professor if I could ask you to turn to the bottom two images so let's pick a 19 see what does the bottom left-hand image show us so now we're again this is the third opening off the door and so in

00:28:20 the third opening off the door and so in between each two firefighters close the door wait at a small amount of time and then

00:28:24 then open to the missus about a minute absolutely diggersby are the images of Figure B and here the firefighters are looking at the fire at the end of the room from a different angle so we're no

00:28:36 room from a different angle so we're no longer looking directly along we're now looking upwards into the corner so what you're seeing is the top of the appliances as opposed to the entire length of the appliance or as much as the lamp as we could see and so we're

00:28:48 the lamp as we could see and so we're looking up into the into the top corner if you like or a top portion of the room the black line on the right hand side is again the door of the kitchen and my interpretation of where the toll fridge/freezer is indicated on Figure C

00:29:01 fridge/freezer is indicated on Figure C to the right but I'm grateful for that preface professor if you wouldn't mind staying standing and if I asked Ralph if you wouldn't mind turning to page 34 and figure 21 professor again if we could go

00:29:15 figure 21 professor again if we could go through each of these images first of all though general question what do these images show to the kitchen so

00:29:26 these images show to the kitchen so these are no longer from the doorway and they moved into the kitchen and while one of the firefighters I believe it to be firefighter batter B was tackling the fire in the fridge freezer and firefighter Brown was

00:29:40 fridge freezer and firefighter Brown was looking at and the rest of the window end of the kitchen using the thermal-imaging camera and that's what these images depict thank you I interrupted you if we could start in the

00:29:51 interrupted you if we could start in the top left-hand corner we have figure 21 a what does this image show us in your interpretation and figure 21 a is looking at the top would be west hand

00:30:04 looking at the top would be west hand corner of the kitchen window and so the the large kitchen window is on this side on the left-hand side the smaller kitchen window with the infill panel above it with extractor fan

00:30:16 infill panel above it with extractor fan is on the right-hand side and what this photograph is showing is the thermal imaging cameras image of just what was happening around that area and just after the firefighters had

00:30:27 and just after the firefighters had entered the room so about a minute after the firefighters attempted it and if we move over looking at Little Beaver Bravo begins an image of the kitchen window I

00:30:39 begins an image of the kitchen window I think what can be seen through that window in your in your view so the images here are some of them are replicants of each other this one is showing you now where the the edge of

00:30:51 showing you now where the the edge of the window frame is and what you what appears to be in evidence is materials dropping down from across the window on the other side and again is it much the

00:31:05 the other side and again is it much the same view that's identified in the stills that little C little D in Italy yes professor thank you very much Ralph

00:31:17 yes professor thank you very much Ralph you can put those down now professor it looks from your report there the fourth category of evidence that you've relied upon is footage actually taken by mr. Kapadia himself is that is that right yes and if I could ask Ralph to put up

00:31:30 yes and if I could ask Ralph to put up page 39 of your final report and figure 25 now first of all can you confirm for us what these shots are and these are

00:31:41 us what these shots are and these are photographs that were taken still images taken from video material that was recovered from mr. Cadiz a mobile telephone and they are taken from

00:31:52 telephone and they are taken from outside of Granville tower looking up towards flat 16 and can you help us what have you deduced what can you deduce from these screenshots so the videos

00:32:03 from these screenshots so the videos follow a sequence as you can see by the timing and really what I was trying to capture was just the development of the fire around about the kitchen area of

00:32:15 fire around about the kitchen area of there that sorry the window of the kitchen of flat 16 and what appears to be happening is that the area around where the extractor fan is appears to be

00:32:28 where the extractor fan is appears to be burning and that adds that burning is progressing and that the fire is exiting are beginning to exit outside of the kitchen or flat 16 and the kitchen extractor fan

00:32:40 or flat 16 and the kitchen extractor fan if we look at little see is that am i right in understanding its identified by the large white arrow that's correct and if we move along to the screenshot at little E which is timed at zero one zero

00:32:53 little E which is timed at zero one zero eight point eighteen what does the top arrow indicate and the top arrow is my my interpretation of the photograph is that it's indicating flames now starting

00:33:04 that it's indicating flames now starting to come out from the window on the right-hand side of the window as you look up and the middle arrow and the middle arrow and the arrow beneath it are pointing out what appears to be

00:33:16 are pointing out what appears to be debris falling from the window thank you Roy if you can put that image down there professor the fifth and final category of evidence you appear to rely upon and

00:33:27 of evidence you appear to rely upon and for reaching your conclusions respective hypothesis one appears be the evidence of the occupant of flat nine now ruff if I could ask you to go to page 66 of the

00:33:38 I could ask you to go to page 66 of the final report and paragraph eight point eight point nine and could that be amplified that paragraph reads thus flat nine on the third floor Grand Vitara was also damaged by fire flat nine can be

00:33:50 also damaged by fire flat nine can be ruled out as the area of origin of the first fire in grateful tower because the occupant of flat nine spoke to the fire service at zero one thirty six twenty three which is after the initial contact by mr. Halley kabadi the occupier flat

00:34:02 by mr. Halley kabadi the occupier flat nine was reported stating that quotes the fire was not in her flat but there was a lot of smoke close quotes and my writer thinking that's the particular extract of evidence you've relied upon yes and this was important because when

00:34:14 yes and this was important because when the fire investigators at a later point examined some of the other flats on the floors beneath floor floor four and flat nine was quite extensively damaged and

00:34:26 nine was quite extensively damaged and the it was then therefore important to be able to rule out flat nine because it was lower as a potential point of origin of the fire within the tower and this

00:34:37 of the fire within the tower and this ruled that out as far as I was concerned quite conclusively because the occupant was in flat nine after the fire had begun and in flat 16 thank you have you

00:34:48 begun and in flat 16 thank you have you seen any evidence since you completed your report on the first November 2018 which causes you materially to alter your conclusion respect of hypothesis warned or gives rise to an alternative

00:35:00 warned or gives rise to an alternative hypothesis now turning to your conclusion and the strength of your confidence in relation to your conclusion on hypothesis one put simply would you say it was certain probable or

00:35:11 would you say it was certain probable or likely that the initial fire started in the kitchen of flat 16 in my view it was certain Thank You professor we're now going to turn to hypothesis 2 and that's the location within the kitchen where

00:35:24 the location within the kitchen where you consider the the initial fire started

00:35:26 started ruff could I ask you to turn to page 68 of the final report and paragraph eight point eight point six Dean professor you set out there and I quote the evidence

00:35:37 set out there and I quote the evidence of the firefighters and the images from the thermal the camera indicate that is more likely than not the air of origin of the fire was in the southeast area for kitchen in flat 16 this is

00:35:48 for kitchen in flat 16 this is illustrated in Figure 56 and photographically in Figure 57 first of all does that remain your view yes thank you now if I could ask Ralph to turn to

00:35:59 you now if I could ask Ralph to turn to page 69 and figure 56 first of all

00:36:08 now we've looked at this earlier but do you confirm that is the layout of the kitchen and the southeast and yes shaded

00:36:20 kitchen and the southeast and yes shaded red is the air of origin yes and if we could turn could I just clarify this I think that the shaded red area I would I would say contains the area of origin

00:36:31 would say contains the area of origin thank you

00:36:32 thank you now before I go to the next page I should give a warning that people may find it's distressing shows the scene of the kitchen after the fire that Roth

00:36:43 the kitchen after the fire that Roth could I ask you to turn to figure 57 at page 69 now this is a photograph of the

00:36:54 page 69 now this is a photograph of the kitchen and the area that contains the area of origin is again shaded red is that right that's correct yes just so that people can understand the location

00:37:06 that people can understand the location of matters starting at the far left hand side we have the kitchen window yes then in the foreground we have the old freezer yes annex and below it the small

00:37:17 freezer yes annex and below it the small fridge correct behind it we have the tool fridge freezer yes and as we move right which we have the cooker yes a big yeah a possible toaster yes a washing

00:37:30 yeah a possible toaster yes a washing machine yes the sink yes on the corner next to the sink immediately next to it we have the possible kettle and against the far right hand wall the microwave that's correct thank you know if that

00:37:44 that's correct thank you know if that can be put down as with hypotheses one can I now turn to the evidence you've relied upon for reaching your conclusion respective hypothesis to now again the

00:37:55 respective hypothesis to now again the first source of evidence relied upon appears to be the evidence of mr. Kabaddi is that a fair summary yes and Ralph if I could ask you to turn to page 65 of the final report and paragraph

00:38:07 65 of the final report and paragraph eight point eight point five and I'll read this out that you say out there and I quote mr. behavior Kabaddi he occupied flat 16 at ground water

00:38:18 flat 16 at ground water reports that he was wakened by the smoke alarm in his kitchen he went into the kitchen via the main door this was the door from the hallway and stated that my quote I could see light colored smoke in the area next the fridge freezer and

00:38:30 the area next the fridge freezer and window it was in the general area there the smoke was rising up from floor level and coming towards me and I quote I saw smoke it seems to be coming from behind my hot point fridge freezer the smoke

00:38:42 my hot point fridge freezer the smoke was approximately 2/3 of the height of the fridge freezer and reached about where the cooker was closed quotes he also described a smoke as my quote dark light dark or light in the record of

00:38:55 light dark or light in the record of interview data the 14th of June 2017 and I quote the smoke that I saw in my kitchen was light and white in color I'm aware that in my first and second police interviews I described the smoke as both

00:39:07 interviews I described the smoke as both light and dark it is important to remember that I just had the most frightening experience of my life was in shock I also did not have an interpreter during these two interviews and I clearly needed one and I said dark I did not mean dark and

00:39:20 and I said dark I did not mean dark and color I meant thick and finally Mike wrote the smoke by the window and the fridge side and underneath close quote is that the part of the pertinent extracts of evidence you relied upon in

00:39:31 extracts of evidence you relied upon in relation to your students that's failing thank you now again the second source of evidence relied upon was the evidence of the first responders again is that a fair summary professor yes it is could I

00:39:43 fair summary professor yes it is could I ask RAF to D amplify that one to page 66 so it's the same page and paragraph 8 point 8 point 12 and here you set out

00:39:56 point 8 point 12 and here you set out the relevant extracts first of all you summarized the evidence of cream out of battery and firefighter Brown and then you go and go on to quote firefighter Brown now before I deal with the quote I

00:40:09 Brown now before I deal with the quote I think this Christian name is David as opposed to Daniel I beg your pardon yes and you set out there and I quote I explained to chromatic mass be that we need to get right in and put it out

00:40:20 need to get right in and put it out I open the door Krim out of battery pulse the ceiling once more and then we moved in turning left next English to fire the room began to clear to a point where I could make out it was a kitchen none of the worktops are indeed any of

00:40:32 none of the worktops are indeed any of the remainder the room was involved in the fire at that time it was contained to one end being to the left as you enter the room and from about 2 to 3 feet up crew manager possibly pointed

00:40:43 feet up crew manager possibly pointed out that it was a fridge that he put out this was towards the right hand side of the back wall sitting on something about 2-3 feet up again this I've this I found a bit strange whilst explained on one

00:40:55 a bit strange whilst explained on one hand I could only see flame from 2 3 feet apart in and roughly go on to the next bit of quote in the air it was in the wrong location the force will cut in the flame I saw which was more to the

00:41:07 the flame I saw which was more to the left of that wall I walk towards the fridge to inspect it it appeared around the top 25% of the fridge was heavily damaged immediately I notice little piece of hot embers debris falling outside what I could now see was a

00:41:18 outside what I could now see was a window that a completely given way leaving a hole in the wall below this window was a box sturdy enough to hold my weight I was not involved in the fire and just for the sake of completeness Ralf UD amplified that and amplified

00:41:31 Ralf UD amplified that and amplified paragraph 8 point 8 point 13 it says to provide context and I said just for sake completeness I read this out the box

00:41:43 completeness I read this out the box below the windows most like the old fridge referred to by mr. B hey Luke Abady quotes small fridge was stored on top of Knoll freeze and the corner opposite by the window closed quotes and open quotes the broken freezer was just

00:41:54 open quotes the broken freezer was just a few inches from the kitchen window close quotes and cream and you chose Bobby and five Daniel Brown also bo said in their evidence Gravatar public quarry that my quote just in front of the window there was something like a

00:42:05 window there was something like a kitchen counter aboard across there which he climbed up onto which obviously cannot see now but it was there it seemed to be a worktop a standard kitchen worktop which was essentially in front of the window close

00:42:16 essentially in front of the window close quote and quotes firefighter Daniel brown it would be that smaller fridge in the foreground in the middle that was against the wall right below the window and if I could finally ask Ralph to turn

00:42:29 and if I could finally ask Ralph to turn to page 35 and paragraph eight point five point nineteen and again I won't go through this but that is the evidence from

00:42:40 from firefighter Oh Han for identifying the location of the area of origin within flat 16 the kitchen a flat 16

00:42:48 flat 16 yes that's correct yes the third source of evidence again I think is the thermal-imaging camera footage is that right yes and if I glass raft at the

00:42:59 right yes and if I glass raft at the amplified that and turn to page 32 rather and figure 19 and again just for the avoidance of doubt those the images you relied upon for identifying the area

00:43:11 you relied upon for identifying the area within the kitchen that you can see that contains the air of origin the these were but I also used the thermal imaging video that was taken after the firefighters had begun to put the fridge

00:43:24 firefighters had begun to put the fridge out and that was because it provided very valuable information relating to the damage to the appliances to the right of where I believe the area of

00:43:35 right of where I believe the area of origin to be and tying in with that answer it appears that the fourth piece of evidence you've relied upon is the fire patterns on the wall in the kitchen

00:43:47 fire patterns on the wall in the kitchen is that right yes and if I could ask RAF to take that image down and turn to page 69 and figure 57 which we've looked at earlier now professor if you could help

00:44:01 earlier now professor if you could help us again it may well be you need to retread the ground you trod in giving evidence in June explaining burn patterns and what you can learn from them and I wonder actually if it

00:44:13 from them and I wonder actually if it would be more helpful to take this photograph was shown earlier in my report without the red line in it and it might be easier to look at that one

00:44:24 might be easier to look at that one reference immediately to hand for that photograph I think it's earlier on in the report

00:44:33 I can do it from the signals okay just go to page 24

00:44:48 sorry I can do it from this one it's fine sorry page 26 figure 14 sorry I'm a new perfect Thank You Ralph page 66 26

00:45:03 perfect Thank You Ralph page 66 26 rather sorry figure 14 professor if you could probably ease if if I could ask you to identify what burn patterns

00:45:14 you to identify what burn patterns you've relied upon for the purposes of your conclusion respective hypothesis to okay so our stand also and what what you're looking looking at in terms of

00:45:25 you're looking looking at in terms of interpreting this photograph with regards to trying to narrow down an area a potential area of origin is not simply one of those factors individually it's the combination of them all together those factors being the witness

00:45:37 those factors being the witness statements particularly the TRC video and also then the patterns on the on the walls and on the appliances that that we would see in the photograph the thermal-imaging camera video in

00:45:49 thermal-imaging camera video in particular was hugely helpful to be able to say that the fire and in the early stages damaged or was centered in only the area from down at the fridge freezer

00:46:01 the area from down at the fridge freezer and not the appliances on the other side of the fridge freezer and that's the video we showed it back that's correct yes and the reason that I say that is because after the initial fire was

00:46:12 because after the initial fire was extinguished the fire at some point re-entered this flat and at some point the appliances down this end from the cooker further down were damaged to a greater extent as a consequence of that

00:46:25 greater extent as a consequence of that reentry

00:46:25 reentry so the burn patterns that were looking at and the damage to these appliances or as a result of the initial fire plus a reentry of that initial fire into the flat at a later point so being able to

00:46:36 flat at a later point so being able to sequence when this damage occurred and what level of damage occurred to those appliances from the cooker towards the door and taken from the thermal-imaging

00:46:48 door and taken from the thermal-imaging cameras is incredibly important it was it showed the TI scene showed that natural fact very little if any damage to the appliances from the cooker back to with

00:46:59 appliances from the cooker back to with the microwave this and so we're looking at him so we you were able to exclude apologies if I put this to crudely correct me if I have done on the basis of that you felt able to can exclude the washing machine the possible kettle and

00:47:12 washing machine the possible kettle and the microwave yes absolutely because the thermal-imaging camera shows no damage particularly to those appliances old and perhaps a bit of smoke damage but nothing more than that and that allows us very early on because we know because

00:47:25 us very early on because we know because the firefighters intervention very early on that and the where the fire was occurring was from the cooker forwards towards the window and we could rule out all of the other appliances that were in

00:47:36 all of the other appliances that were in the rest of the kitchen thank you I interrupted you professor apologies I think you're about to explain for us what you deduce from the burn patterns in the South End miss kitchen so in in this particular

00:47:48 kitchen so in in this particular photograph this was one of the early photographs taken by the first fire investigation team that went in which were from London Fire Brigade and their first task was to and quite rightly take

00:47:59 first task was to and quite rightly take a series of photographs that would simply document the scene so without moving things around too much or damaging things too much and that's exactly the right approach to take so

00:48:10 exactly the right approach to take so this is one of those early photographs it's taken from the living room where the sliding doors were looking into the kitchen and what we're seeing so I'm standing probably close to where some of

00:48:22 standing probably close to where some of the the television appliance and things like that were in the living room looking into the kitchen and what you're seeing from the left-hand side which is the kitchen window side over to the

00:48:33 the kitchen window side over to the right-hand side which is where the doorway at to the kitchen would be which is behind this this this pillar are further on from behind that pillar is a gradation in my view of the damage so it

00:48:45 gradation in my view of the damage so it looks to be more damaged by the damage I mean it looks blacker it looks more char to the kitchen side then to the right-hand side of sorry to the window

00:48:57 right-hand side of sorry to the window side then to the right-hand side of the kitchen

00:48:59 kitchen and that's one aspect to view we can also see from this photograph that the appliances towards the kitchen end so that's the old freezer the small fridge

00:49:11 that's the old freezer the small fridge and the tall fridge freezer armoire or damaged to a greater degree than the appliances starting with the cooker and moving back towards the door end of the kitchen and

00:49:23 towards the door end of the kitchen and the other thing of note is that this room has not gone to gone through a process that we call flashover flashover is indicated in terms of fire patterns

00:49:34 is indicated in terms of fire patterns or burn patterns by burning from essentially the ceiling right the way down to the floor so everything that's combustible in the in the particular compartment will burn we've got an items

00:49:46 compartment will burn we've got an items that have survived for example the bin items on the floor some of the kitchen cabinets and the doors of those cabinets are only burned at the surface rather than burnt to a more penetrating degree

00:49:59 than burnt to a more penetrating degree and so those patterns initially are helpful in providing us with physical evidence to suggest that this end the kit the window end of the kitchen was

00:50:11 kit the window end of the kitchen was the one that is more badly damaged thank you now the fifth and wrath can put that image down there it seems that the fifth and final source of evidence you've

00:50:22 and final source of evidence you've relied upon are stills from mr. Cadiz phone and if I could pull can photos taken with mr. Bailey's phone to be strictly accurate and that I asked you to turn to page 38 of the report and

00:50:33 to turn to page 38 of the report and figure 23

00:50:41 first of all could you explain for us what these images are where they were taken from what do you think they show yes and so these were images recovered from video that was on taken on mr.

00:50:54 from video that was on taken on mr. committee's mobile telephone the timestamp on the images was just after a five five minutes past 1:00 in the morning and what the photographs show is from outside of Granville tower looking

00:51:07 from outside of Granville tower looking up towards the window of flat 16 so in photograph a the red glow up at the top is the the window of the kitchen of flat

00:51:18 is the the window of the kitchen of flat 16 and I understand the red glow to be the early stages of the developing fire within that flat the white arrow is pointing at a line what which looks to

00:51:30 pointing at a line what which looks to be a sharp line within that image and that may be part of the window frame itself or it may be part of the appliance in picture B which was taken

00:51:43 appliance in picture B which was taken at about the Tate that the time stamp is the same so it gives you an idea of how quickly things were developing the arrow the white arrow in picture B is pointing

00:51:54 the white arrow in picture B is pointing at an area of flame that became visible in the video to the other side of the kitchen window so that's the side away from or opposite the opposite the

00:52:05 from or opposite the opposite the position of the fridge freezer thank you now before we come to look at your conclusions on hypothesis two and could we turn to examine the electrical appliances that you've eliminated as

00:52:17 appliances that you've eliminated as having played any causative role in more detail now you've adverted the extent to which you've relied upon the video footage and excluding appliances from the cooker up to the microwave but if we

00:52:28 the cooker up to the microwave but if we can go through the evidence in more detail and relate to those appliances now again could I just give a warning that some of these scenes that show burnt out debris the first appliance I'd

00:52:39 burnt out debris the first appliance I'd be grateful for your help in relation to is the cooker and Ralph's if I could ask you to turn to page 60 and figure 54

00:52:52 [Music] yes no that shows the cooker I think I can lead on that and you say we turn back to page 59 Ralph apologies and

00:53:03 back to page 59 Ralph apologies and paragraph eight point seven point twenty four which is the bottom of page 59 yes you say the electric cooker to the

00:53:14 you say the electric cooker to the right-hand side of the tall fridge freezer was examined and found to have only superficial damage and melting to the plastic knobs of the appliance now is it for that principal reason that you

00:53:25 is it for that principal reason that you eliminated the cooker from considerations having played any costed roll em it's for that reason but also from the video footage of the tea I see thank you now if we can go back to

00:53:36 thank you now if we can go back to figure 57

00:53:47 which is at page 69 rough

00:53:56 and if we could amplify bigger 57 looking in the far right hand side the microwave the evidential basis for ruling at the microwave would that be

00:54:08 ruling at the microwave would that be the video footage as well yes pretty much for all of these appliances so so when you look at the photograph they look to be badly damaged in some cases because there are some of them are collapsed some of them are melted some

00:54:19 collapsed some of them are melted some of them are scorched particularly the washing machine however as I've said the fire re-entered into the kitchen at some point during the the the incident the

00:54:32 point during the the the incident the video footage from the thermal-imaging camera which was taken at the the very first intervention of the firefighters into the kitchen clearly showed that these appliances were not involved in

00:54:43 these appliances were not involved in the early stages of the fire they're just following on from that answer ruff if I could ask you to put down figure 57 and take us to page 81 of the report and paragraph eight point eight point three

00:54:54 paragraph eight point eight point three nine and this is in relation to the microwave professor you say quotes mr. Dan Matthews ad in parenthesis he was one of the investigators I think yes he was one of the investigators for key

00:55:05 was one of the investigators for key forensic services thank you also reports the internal fuse with in the microwave had operated and determined that this was most likely as a result of external fire attack and not electrical activity

00:55:16 fire attack and not electrical activity this was also the view expressed in the bureau veritas Foreign Safety Department report data 7 November 2017 is that a few with which you agree yes could you give us a reason as to why um fuses

00:55:27 give us a reason as to why um fuses within appliances in particular can operate that means that they open are they they they blow as some experts have described it and they can operate as a

00:55:39 described it and they can operate as a result of just simply Heat be our experiencing heat from an external fire as opposed to operating in their normal electrical safety function thank you

00:55:51 electrical safety function thank you could I ask Ralph to put that down and return us to page 69 and figure 57

00:55:59 and if we see there at the right hand side in the middle identification of kettle and toaster respectively can you help us on what basis did you eliminate

00:56:10 help us on what basis did you eliminate these two appliances as having any causative role again a similar basis they were clearly in view in the tea I see footage they were also eliminated by

00:56:21 see footage they were also eliminated by Bureau Veritas in their examination thank you

00:56:24 thank you finally you were in the hearing room yesterday to hear dr. Glover's evidence you've clearly read the report yes he provided are you content or agree with the his conclusions in relation to

00:56:35 with the his conclusions in relation to the absence of causative evidence if I put it that way in relation to the appliances we've just discussed yes I am thank you now your conclusion and if I could ask Ralph to take us to page 68 in

00:56:48 could ask Ralph to take us to page 68 in paragraph 8 8.16 your conclusion respective hypothesis to is this my quote the evidence of the firefighters and the images from the thermal camera indicate that is more likely than not

00:57:00 indicate that is more likely than not that the area of origin of the fire was in the southeast area of the kitchen of flat 16 now accepting that you've sought to reach your conclusions or the balance of probabilities and first of all have

00:57:13 of probabilities and first of all have you seen any evidence that suggests an alternative to hypothesis - no I have not

00:57:19 not can we take it that you are reasonably confident in your conclusions set out at 8.8 point 16 yes I'm confident on vision

00:57:31 professor could I now turn to hypothesis 3 and ruff if I could ask you to take us to page 88 and paragraph eight point

00:57:42 to page 88 and paragraph eight point eight point five for professor in relation to hypothesis three I look the air of origin was the tall freezer you

00:57:53 air of origin was the tall freezer you say this and I quote the combination of witness statements see I see footage that's the thermal-imaging camera the fire patterns on the tall fridge freezer and the laminate flooring underneath the tall fridge freezer and the conclusions

00:58:05 tall fridge freezer and the conclusions reached by dong conductor Duncan Glover in relation to his electric nation all indicate that it's more likely than not that the area of origin of the fire was located at the southeast corner of the kitchen in the tall fridge

00:58:18 corner of the kitchen in the tall fridge freezer located along the south facing wall first of all does that remain your view and yes it does thank you now again as with the previous like two hypotheses

00:58:29 as with the previous like two hypotheses I'd like to go through the evidence you've relied upon in reaching your conclusion and again if I could just repeat the general warring that would be looking at photographs that show burned

00:58:41 looking at photographs that show burned debris in the kitchen now the first piece of evidence I'd like to turn to relates the old freezer and the small fridge that was I put it crudely opposite the tall fridge freezers now

00:58:55 opposite the tall fridge freezers now could I ask ruff to take us first of all to page 71 and figure 58 and we see

00:59:07 to page 71 and figure 58 and we see there in Figure 58 in the middle of that page in the bottom left-hand corner what you described as the assumed position of old freezer and small fridge is that

00:59:19 old freezer and small fridge is that right yes could you help us what is the evidential basis for you locating the old fridge freezer sorry the old freezer and the small fridge there and the positioning of them is based on the

00:59:34 positioning of them is based on the general plan that mr. kabiri and other witnesses that lived in the property presented of where the items in the kitchen were and also in the witness

00:59:45 the kitchen were and also in the witness statements that were presented by the initial firefighters who said that they stood on or leant on appliances that were or materials that were there which they later identified as the two

00:59:58 they later identified as the two appliances we're talking about and also then the final or finally the photographs that were taken by the first fire investigators when they documented the scene when they did their scene

01:00:09 the scene when they did their scene examination on day 14th of June Thank You professor ruff if you could just put back down and could we go back to figure 57 at page 69 [Music]

01:00:19 [Music] dude sorry Michael could we get to page 72 first and figure 59

01:00:30 now can you help us what does this photograph show first of all so this photograph that stand up and just talk you through it did that be useful thank you photograph taken of the Oval freezer

01:00:42 you photograph taken of the Oval freezer so if you imagine looking at this are slightly to the to the left of this aspect here you would expect to see the window or the remains of the opening where the window was in the kitchen this

01:00:54 where the window was in the kitchen this wooden beam here or piece of wood here is I believe part of the partition or the sliding door partition this is my

01:01:05 the sliding door partition this is my kitchen and the living between the kitchen potters mature so I'm standing in the in the living room in my position right now and the appliance that you're looking at is the old freezer that was

01:01:16 looking at is the old freezer that was positioned under the kitchen window to the left hand side as you looked down the kitchen in red circled in red is if you look at it carefully is the remains of the appliance plug for this

01:01:28 of the appliance plug for this particular appliance and that red circle isn't the lower half of this photograph that's correct and the what is presumably the appliance cord is trailing down to that plug thank you

01:01:42 trailing down to that plug thank you what do you deduce from the state of the plug um it's difficult to say just simply from the photograph but taking the evidence in the photograph so

01:01:53 the evidence in the photograph so looking at it and also the evidence presented by bureau veritas in their report the plug is not plugged in obviously and but it also appears to be quite badly damaged by the effect of

01:02:06 quite badly damaged by the effect of heat and possibly flame and that it shows that that appliance was not plugged in at the time of the fire what can we derive from the marks on the side

01:02:17 can we derive from the marks on the side of the old freezer that's immediately in front of the photograph and it's difficult really to provide a strong interpretation of that other than the

01:02:28 interpretation of that other than the fridge freezer has clearly been severely affected by fire and do you agree with the conclusions that dr. Glover reached in relation to the old freezer unit

01:02:40 in relation to the old freezer unit yes now relation to the smaller fridge could I ask Ralph to take us to figure 60 which is at page 73

01:02:53 [Music]

01:02:59 again professor starting a basic question first what does this show us so again it might be useful just to go back to the previous photographs just for a moment that would be Orion 872

01:03:11 moment that would be Orion 872 yes apologies

01:03:19 page 72 please

01:03:26 and if you can employ figure 59 thank you so this is as we said the old freezer here if you look to the right-hand side of the photograph you

01:03:37 right-hand side of the photograph you just see the outline here of the small fridge so it just puts the two appliances in context with each other what you're identifying that just for the transcript is in the far right hand middle of the photograph what looks like

01:03:49 middle of the photograph what looks like a heavily rusty sheet of metal at an angle that's correctly professor thank you that was useful if we can rather we go now to page 73 and figure 60

01:04:07 Thank You ruff professor what does this show us so this is photograph taken out of slightly different angles for the previous photograph and I'm pointing to the top left-hand corner of the

01:04:18 the top left-hand corner of the photograph was taken from that angle where in the top left this object that looks slightly rusted is the old freezer and this now is looking at it from the

01:04:29 and this now is looking at it from the opposite side if you like and the appliance that were looking at in the middle this box shaped thing is the small fridge it's up against the what is

01:04:40 small fridge it's up against the what is a door on the right hand side and that's the bottom door of the fridge freezer the tall fridge freezer and right to the to the very right of the photograph you see the bottom of the cooker so this

01:04:51 see the bottom of the cooker so this appliance here is the cooker thank you what's your assessment of whether the small fridge was plugged in or not on the night of the fire and my understanding is that it was not but I

01:05:03 understanding is that it was not but I only there's no photographic evidence and I can see as there was with the old freezer of plugs or any other sort of

01:05:15 freezer of plugs or any other sort of parts of the appliance that are visible in these photographs but the witness statements and those of the four investigators who did see the appliance and said you have said that it was not

01:05:26 and said you have said that it was not don't thank you and just for the sake of completeness if I could ask you first of all to confirm are you content with dr. Glover's conclusions in relation to the

01:05:38 Glover's conclusions in relation to the small fridge yes thank you class you'd now turn to page 74 on paragraph 18 point eight point two five sorry eight

01:05:49 point eight point two five sorry eight if we can just stop at eight point eight to four

01:05:57 professor take you to eight point eight point two four is it just flashes out the answer I think you've just given as to another aspect of evidence to whether the small fridge was plugged in or not

01:06:09 the small fridge was plugged in or not yes that that's correct this has taken from a discussion or an interview between watch manager lever and mr. kabiri and just for the record eight

01:06:20 kabiri and just for the record eight point eight point two four reads thus quotes the witness statements mr. Halleck body and contemporaneous notes of firefighter Daniel Brown also suggested that the initial fire was not in the old freezer and small fridge mr.

01:06:31 in the old freezer and small fridge mr. B hey Luca baby when being interviewed by water manager Matthew lever said quotes lever and these two referring to the old freezer and small fridge definitely not plugged in kabbadi definitely these not working

01:06:43 definitely these not working firefighters of Daniel brand said that my quote crew mayor bass be pointed out that was the fridge that he put out this was towards the right hand side of the back wall close quotes that's the evidence you relied upon yes could I now

01:07:01 evidence you relied upon yes could I now ask you to turn to paragraph eight point eight point two five st. paid and just to confirm for the avoidance of doubt

01:07:10 thank you

01:07:15 you conclude here in relation to the old fries and small fridge quotes on the base of this evidence it's unlikely the old fries and small fridge are in the area of origin of the fire although these appliances were clearly

01:07:26 although these appliances were clearly involved in the fire at some later point this allows the air of origin of the fire to be narrow to the southeast corner of the kitchen as indicated by the red line in Figure 62 and if we

01:07:37 the red line in Figure 62 and if we could D amplifier that paragraph and amplify figure 62 which is immediately below the red line to which you refer is that marked in the far left hand side

01:07:49 that marked in the far left hand side yes that's correct thank you final question this bet do you remain of the view set out in paragraph eight point eight point two five in relation to the ol freezer and small fridge yes I do thank you so that is a

01:08:02 fridge yes I do thank you so that is a convenient point at which they invite you to write a small break yes well professor we normally have a short break about an hour into the session so we'll take one now we'll resume at ten past

01:08:14 take one now we'll resume at ten past eleven so you have to ask you please not to talk about your evidence to anyone whether out of the room of course and if you go with the ashram I come to you thank you very much thank you very much

01:08:33 like ten past eleven them cheese

01:11:28 you

01:21:15 right professor ready to carry on yes thank you good thank you yes mr. Kinnear thanks to professor thanks very much for coming back we were dealing with hypothesis three and we were dealing with electrical appliances those are

01:21:27 with electrical appliances those are found within the narrowed down area of origin yes you set out in your report now the second appliance I'd like to discuss with you is the hot plate electric cooking device that's been

01:21:38 electric cooking device that's been variously described as in the M tad or an injera pan yes now if I could ask Ralph to put up figure 63 on page 75 and

01:21:52 Ralph to put up figure 63 on page 75 and if you could amplify figure 63 first of all is that the appliance that has been variously described as I've just set out yes that's my understanding thank you very much are you contend that

01:22:06 thank you very much are you contend that irrespective of where this plan may have been stored before the fire there is no evidence first of all suggests that it was plugged in that night for us yes and

01:22:17 was plugged in that night for us yes and are you content with dr. Glover's assessment there that the item showed no signs of electrical activity yes or arcing to be pertinent yes thank you therefore can this device be ruled out

01:22:29 therefore can this device be ruled out as having played any causative role in the initial fire in my opinion yes thank you

01:22:33 you the third appliance or device I'd like to cover is the kitchen extractor fan and Ralph may ask you to turn to page 28 of figure 15

01:22:46 first of all professor what does this photo show and this was a photograph that was taken of flat 13 which was used as I understand it as an exemplar flaps

01:22:59 as I understand it as an exemplar flaps to look at the orientation of various parts of the kitchen particularly the area around the window and so it's my understanding that this photograph was used and has been used as an exemplar to

01:23:12 used and has been used as an exemplar to show what the kitchen window set up if you like was like in fat16 and so you have the large window pane or large window at the left-hand side of the

01:23:23 window at the left-hand side of the photograph the small window pane to the right-hand side and above that there's an infill panel which has the extractor fact thank you and if we could do amplify that please Ralph and just for the sake of

01:23:34 Ralph and just for the sake of completeness go to paragraph eight point four point five which is at page 27 and this is just to confirm the evidence you've given that effectively the

01:23:47 you've given that effectively the photograph shows a comparable flat yes now Ralph if you could take that down and could you take us to page 80 and in particular paragraph eight point eight

01:23:58 particular paragraph eight point eight point three five now here you are discussing the various examinations that were carried out in relation to the

01:24:10 were carried out in relation to the gridded errors within the kitchen which we've covered before in June and you said eight point eight point three five you say there's the these examinations appear to involve removal of the various items from the bags in

01:24:21 of the various items from the bags in which they are contained followed by a non-destructive visual examination in some cases of microscope unspecified in terms of type was also used and in some cases x-ray examination of fuses was

01:24:32 cases x-ray examination of fuses was undertaken yes now for the the unnies uninitiated in the room what can you derive from non-destructive visual

01:24:45 derive from non-destructive visual examination generally and then we'll look at the extractor fan debris okay and non-destructive visual examination is exactly as it sounds so it is it

01:24:58 is exactly as it sounds so it is it involves looking at the various components so they might be small conductors there might be the larger appliance and by I initially they might involve some cleaning of the items so

01:25:10 involve some cleaning of the items so that they can be visualized or looked at in more detail and they might involve looking at some of the components under a microscope or with and specialist equipment such as x-rays micro CT

01:25:22 equipment such as x-rays micro CT scanners and scanning electron microscopes and so on all of that is non-destructive in terms of the examination of this particular item thank you and just to bottom off this

01:25:35 thank you and just to bottom off this point do you agree with the analysis that dr. Glover set out in relation the extractor fan and that it effectively played no causative role in the initial fire yes I do thank you now just to flesh out the

01:25:46 thank you now just to flesh out the evidence in relation to the extractor fan

01:25:48 fan could I ask Ralph to take us to page 38 and figure 23 now we looked at this earlier but I think it may be helpful just to go back looking at the

01:25:59 just to go back looking at the particular context of the kitchen extractor fan looking at screenshot a on the left-hand side first of all what does the white arrow specifically indicate and what I was indicating with

01:26:11 indicate and what I was indicating with this white arrow was the black line so the line of flame looks to be running up against a black line now this may very well be part of the construction of the window

01:26:21 window or it may be something that relates to the positioning of the flame within the kitchen so against the appliance that told fridge/freezer for example it very much depends on the angle at which the

01:26:34 much depends on the angle at which the photograph was taken but that's what the white line is indicating okay and looking at little B you've explained to us on what the error on the far right-hand side indicates Ken what if

01:26:45 right-hand side indicates Ken what if anything can you deduce from the orange color

01:26:49 color in the middle of the photograph in relation to the kitchen extractor fan nothing from this or that could I ask you to take that down Ralph and turn to page and go back rather to page 39 and

01:27:03 page and go back rather to page 39 and looking at figure 25

01:27:08 again our knowledge we've gone through these earlier but I want to look at it in a particular context of the kitchen extractor fan starting the far left-hand

01:27:21 extractor fan starting the far left-hand side does little they teach us anything or can it did or can we deduce anything rather about the causative role of the kitchen extractor fans simply from this photo and not in terms of a causative

01:27:33 photo and not in terms of a causative role what the photograph shows in in a sequence is the flames starting or appearing to begin to burn around the extractor fan and where the infill panel

01:27:45 extractor fan and where the infill panel walls it might be useful to look at the photographs in figure 24 as well yes please and just to put all of them together

01:27:51 together yeah on the one screen so 24 and 25 so if I sorry you're on your feet quite a lot because this yes so if I'm looking

01:28:02 lot because this yes so if I'm looking at the very first photograph of a figure 24 so the one to the to the far left and you can begin to see and looking at these in sequence simply following one

01:28:14 these in sequence simply following one from the other and both in 24 and then in 25 you can begin to see the flames developing around and a circular pattern around where this infill was and those I

01:28:28 around where this infill was and those I believe to be the flames burning around where the the metal extractor fan would be thank you ruff we can put those down now now the next matter in relation to materials

01:28:40 next matter in relation to materials within what you've identified is the hypothetical area of origin is the presence of any other combustible materials in the southeast end of the kitchen now we don't need to go to it but in your preliminary report you noted

01:28:52 but in your preliminary report you noted that there may have been the presence of combustible material in the south end of the kitchen now on the basis of the available evidence is that anything suggest the presence of any other

01:29:04 suggest the presence of any other combustible materials that may have ignited a fire in the southeast end of the kitchen not that may have ignited a fire there was evidence presented by the the witnesses

01:29:17 the witnesses lived in the flat to say that there was a mop and a bucket that was usually stored in that area and they may have contributed because they may have been combustible so they may have contributed to the fire thank you now is the

01:29:31 to the fire thank you now is the position we've reached there for that with the exception of the tour fridge/freezer all other alternative appliances have been excluded having any causative role in the air of origin you've identified in the rules now can we turn to the tour

01:29:46 in the rules now can we turn to the tour fridge/freezer now and could I ask you to turn to page 88 in your report and paragraph 8.8 54

01:30:01 there you say and I quote the combination of witness statements T I see footage the fire patterns on the Taurus freezer and the laminate flooring underneath the tall fridge freezer and the conclusions reached by dr. Duncan

01:30:13 the conclusions reached by dr. Duncan Glover in relation to his electrical examination all indicate that it's more likely than not that the area of origin of the fire was located at the southeast corner of the kitchen in the tall fridge

01:30:24 corner of the kitchen in the tall fridge freezer located along the south facing wall does that remain your view yes it does now again as with the previous hypotheses if I may take us through the

01:30:35 hypotheses if I may take us through the various sources of evidence you've relied upon in reaching your view now the first one source of evidence you've relied upon would be the evidence of mr. Kapadia is that right yes and if I could

01:30:46 Kapadia is that right yes and if I could ask Ralph to take us to parent to page 72 rather and paragraph eight point eight point two three

01:31:00 and correct me if I'm wrong but is that the evidence you've relied upon for concluding that it was only the large fridge freezer

01:31:11 fridge freezer the tall fridge freezer that was plugged in and turned on yes that's correct and that if I could ask Ralph to D amplified that paragraph and to amplify eight point eight point two four on the

01:31:22 eight point eight point two four on the same page just for the sake complete as we've looked at this before in the context of the old freeze and the small fridge but you could leave that evidence

01:31:33 fridge but you could leave that evidence as well yes thank you and ruff could D amplify that and amplify paragraph eight point eight point two four on page 74

01:31:46 apologies and it's really to draw out in particular firefighter brands evidence at the bottom of that paragraph you relied upon that as well yes and there you've taken to mean the fridge that he

01:31:57 you've taken to mean the fridge that he put out being the fridge the tall fridge freezer correct yes'm is there any further element evidence that you have seen which would be relevant to this aspect of your consideration the evidence as to whether

01:32:09 consideration the evidence as to whether the tall fridge freezer was plugged in and turned on by this you mean the witnessed a factual witness and no this is this covers it now the next source of evidence I think

01:32:20 now the next source of evidence I think again is the thermal images and if we could turn to page 32 of your report and figure 19 again

01:32:30 now in the particular context of the tall fridge/freezer to what extent have you relied on this imaging in identifying the tall fridge/freezer as

01:32:42 identifying the tall fridge/freezer as the area of origin if at all and this this was more difficult really because the thermal-imaging camera is showing areas within the kitchen towards the

01:32:53 areas within the kitchen towards the window and where there was a greater intensity of heat so in my interpretation of these images it points out that these areas of greater heat

01:33:05 out that these areas of greater heat were around the tall fridge freezer as opposed to being within the tall fridge freezer now can I ask Ralph to take us to page 37 of the report and figure 22

01:33:22 now first of all what does this show and this is still from the thermal imaging camera just after the firefighters have extinguished the fire the majority of

01:33:34 extinguished the fire the majority of the fire in the toll fridge/freezer what it depicts and up again what it depicts is if we look from the right-hand side

01:33:45 is if we look from the right-hand side across to the left hand side is the part of the cooker you can just see the cooker knobs just around here in the bottom right hand corner yes that's

01:33:57 bottom right hand corner yes that's correct

01:33:58 correct and then you can begin to see along here which is about midway in the photograph

01:34:06 gray line that comes out from the back of the photograph towards the front yes that's the open door of the bottom compartment of the Tal fridge freezer and the area where the little green box

01:34:19 and the area where the little green box is centered is the bottom compartment of the 12th fridge freezer the area immediately above that where the blue cross is is the top compartment of the Tal fridge freezer over as you move over

01:34:32 Tal fridge freezer over as you move over towards the left of the of the photograph and along almost in perpendicular to the open door of the bottom compartment is another gray and defined area which I

01:34:45 is another gray and defined area which I believe to be the door of the top of the toll fridge/freezer and then further on and wear my arrow points at and says items between toll

01:34:56 points at and says items between toll fridge/freezer and the window which are now believed to be the mop and the bucket are highlighting some items that we can just about make out and then over a further aware the number 129 C is you

01:35:08 a further aware the number 129 C is you can just see behind that a silhouette of the firefighter we're looking at area of origin to what extent is this thermal image assist you and it's it's it

01:35:21 image assist you and it's it's it provides assistance in that it shows some of the early damage to the appliance which is the toll fridge/freezer it shows that there wasn't damage to the cooker and it shows that the the damage

01:35:33 cooker and it shows that the the damage to the toll fridge/freezer was was significant in that part of the door sorry the door of the top compartment had to come away on the bottom door it opened in relation to establishing cause

01:35:44 opened in relation to establishing cause which we'll come on to later on to what extent if at all does this image help it doesn't help me at all thank you now the next source of evidence I go through the

01:35:57 next source of evidence I go through the the corrosion the burn patterns on the fridge freezer itself and might house RAF to take us to pages page 76 to start off with thank you very much and looking

01:36:11 off with thank you very much and looking at figure 64 in particular and if that could be amplified for these purposes Thank You Arthur

01:36:21 again professor first of all what does this photo shares and what this photograph is showing is so we're looking down into the corner where the toll fridge/freezer walls or is along

01:36:35 toll fridge/freezer walls or is along the left-hand side this is the edge of the window you can see some debris that's sitting on top of the window for a window sill as we move closer and over

01:36:48 a window sill as we move closer and over towards the right hand side you can see a pattern on the wall which is this sort of multicolored or discoloration on the wall which indicates that there was flame and pinching or up against that

01:37:00 flame and pinching or up against that wall and then as we move over to the item on the right hand side this is the toll fridge/freezer where you can see significant damage fire damage within

01:37:11 significant damage fire damage within the top compartment of the fridge freezer ruff acute if you could D amplifier that photograph and you'll see at the bottom of page 76 there's a

01:37:23 at the bottom of page 76 there's a second finger 64 and if we could amplify that professor again if we can look at the photograph on the left hand side

01:37:35 the photograph on the left hand side what do the burn corrosion patterns on the wall

01:37:38 the wall what can you deduce from them and the patterns that we're looking at these patterns here which are in between the fridge freezer and the the side of the window which is here on the left you're

01:37:50 window which is here on the left you're looking at at a number of things the patterns on the wall are all the way down to the ground and these patterns are most likely caused by flame impinging so flame up against the wall

01:38:01 impinging so flame up against the wall from the top to the bottom and you're also or potentially from the top to the bottom and what you also see is that the laminate flooring in between where the

01:38:13 laminate flooring in between where the fridge freezer is and where the side of the bottom underneath the window underneath the window is is clean so it's not damaged by fire directly and

01:38:26 it's not damaged by fire directly and next to that you have the tall fridge freezer appliance thank you now looking at the right hand side photograph you've got letters A and B mocked on the

01:38:37 you've got letters A and B mocked on the side of the tall fridge/freezer but before we get to that there appears to be a read back can you help us first of all what that red bag is my understanding of what the red bag is is that it is a red plastic bag that was

01:38:49 that it is a red plastic bag that was put on two set of cables or conductors that were behind the toll fridge/freezer and that that bag was attached and to

01:39:00 and that that bag was attached and to those conductors by the fire investigators in order to try to protect the conductor's from damage would be my understanding thank you what does lesser capital letter A denote

01:39:12 what does lesser capital letter A denote so capital letter A but perhaps would take both of them together if you don't mind capital letter A and capital letter B both depict two different fire patterns and what do you deduce from the

01:39:25 patterns and what do you deduce from the fire patterns so for fire pattern depicted by the letter A you can follow it by looking at the two photographs in comparison with each other this shows a discoloration on the on the

01:39:39 this shows a discoloration on the on the side of the toll fridge/freezer that runs from the bottom of the appliance right the way up to the top and so it's spread out and it's depicted by the red line that I've drawn it's spread out and

01:39:50 line that I've drawn it's spread out and runs up the whole length of the appliance the pattern B is another pattern that runs across the side of the appliance and across impart across the

01:40:02 appliance and across impart across the front door of it which will see I presume a little bit later what pattern a suggests to me is that the toll fridge/freezer on this side

01:40:13 the toll fridge/freezer on this side there's a mirroring pattern on the other side of the of the appliance is that the appliance was affected by fire from the bottom to the top what you're seeing is a delamination of the of the or a

01:40:25 a delamination of the of the or a burning off of the paint from the metal and that's caused a discoloration and that would have occurred because of direct flame attack on the appliance thank you professor and just if you stay

01:40:38 thank you professor and just if you stay on your feet I apologize again if can look at that mirror image on the other side could we turn to figure 65 on page 77 first of all can you confirm this is the mirror image to which you

01:40:49 this is the mirror image to which you were referring in New York yes what you're looking at here is the fridge freezer has been moved away from the wall that it was up against so it's been moved about some distance away and we're

01:41:01 moved about some distance away and we're looking now at if I was standing looking at the fridge freezer in front of me we're now looking at the right hand side of it No thank you person if we look at the right hand photograph again we have

01:41:13 the right hand photograph again we have burnt patterns indicated a and B is that right yes what do you deduce first of all from the fire pattern a and same as as the previous one it's it's a continuation if you like of the other pattern so they both would have occurred

01:41:24 pattern so they both would have occurred more or less at the same time on each side of the appliance so it shows a fire attack from the bottom to the top of that appliance and again B is the mirror

01:41:35 that appliance and again B is the mirror image of B in Figure 64 that's correct thank you could I now ask you to turn to page 79 apology before we go there come

01:41:51 page 79 apology before we go there come as you turn to page 78 and figure 66 just what we're looking at burn patterns on the fridge itself and Ralph of QD amplify vigor 66 itself professor apologies again some new to

01:42:03 professor apologies again some new to your feet looking at the far left-hand corner what can we deduce if anything or indeed the right-hand corner photo what do we do serve anything from the nature and extent of the fire patterns identified in the red line inside the

01:42:17 identified in the red line inside the fire investigators have repositioned the door of the top compartment of the fridge freezer back into what they perceive or believed to be its original position or how it would have been

01:42:30 position or how it would have been viewed if you recall this door fell off the appliance at some point and was found by the fire investigators lying on the floor and propped beside the bottom

01:42:42 the floor and propped beside the bottom door which was open and the pattern that you're looking at is depicted on with the red line and again what you've seen or what we're seeing is a D bar burning off of the paint on the surface

01:42:54 burning off of the paint on the surface of the top door and allowing the door to be corroded the pattern appears to move from the left hand side to the right by that I mean it's further down on the

01:43:06 that I mean it's further down on the left-hand side than it is on the right-hand side and that could be simply just a consequence of the dynamic nature of the fire or it could also be a consequence of the movement of gasses because there

01:43:18 of the movement of gasses because there was a window there for a ventilation opening to the left-hand side of that apart under certain that would exercise okay can I just ask it's the pattern we see on in this photograph

01:43:29 see on in this photograph what is the parents giving me front of the door a continuation of pattern B on the side in part it's a continuation of the pattern and it's difficult to ascertain that B knows of course we

01:43:40 ascertain that B knows of course we can't see it in three dimensions and but it appears to be a continuation of the of the patterns on both sides so if you look at the photograph quite and carefully where the red line where the

01:43:52 carefully where the red line where the door is

01:43:53 door is is is breached on the right-hand side you can just about see the right-hand side of the fridge freezer and you can see that that corrosion line is almost a line across the door and the right-hand

01:44:06 line across the door and the right-hand side professor thank you again if I could ask you stay on your feet sorry about this if I could all rather to turn to page 79 and ruff if we're able to split screen

01:44:17 split screen figures 67 and 68 so they are alongside each other

01:44:28 [Music]

01:44:40 if not don't worry

01:44:43 fantastic Thank You professor if you look at figure 67 first of all yes is your what force or what does it show and then secondly what's your interpretation so this is we're now looking at the

01:44:56 so this is we're now looking at the laminate floor that was in the area of the kitchen where the fridge freezer originally stood so if I look at it from the right hand side across to the left and what the fire investigators have

01:45:08 and what the fire investigators have done is they have cleared away all of the appliances and they have cleared away most of the debris from this area so they've cleared away all of the surface and fire debris and bits of

01:45:19 surface and fire debris and bits of loose materials what they've observed as they've done that across this laminate floor is that there's an area which is highlighted by the red mark and that illustrates an area where the laminate

01:45:30 illustrates an area where the laminate floor has been burned through and that's significant because the areas on either side of it have not been burned through this area corresponds with the positioning of the fridge freezer the

01:45:42 positioning of the fridge freezer the white lines the white arrows illustrate an area at the back almost matching exactly the positioning of this burn mark in the laminate and that shows that

01:45:53 mark in the laminate and that shows that the skirting board has also burnt down to a low point in comparison to the skirting board on both sides and that's also significant because it provides

01:46:05 also significant because it provides physical evidence that a fire burnt there to a greater extent than it did to the areas on either side of that Vermont thank you and then can we see the

01:46:16 thank you and then can we see the remains of the skirting board at all and you can just about if you look very carefully it looks a little bit more burnt towards the right-hand side of the

01:46:27 burnt towards the right-hand side of the mark as you can see in the the furthermost right arrow and there is there is a somehow some remains from what my interpretation of the photograph is of parts of the the skirting board

01:46:40 is of parts of the the skirting board wood it is sister ruff are you able to magnify figure 67 sufficiently so that professor Nick Dade can identify the extent of the that's brilliant thank you yeah so you

01:46:52 that's brilliant thank you yeah so you can see along here and I'm pointing just at this kind of jaggedy charred edge and that that shows some of the woods of the scratching book remaining and professor again simply for the assistance of the

01:47:04 again simply for the assistance of the trance goober if we're looking at the right-hand end of the red mark which identifies the bird laminate flooring at the top of that is the skirting board is that right yes and as we look across the

01:47:16 that right yes and as we look across the left-hand side you've identified the far right hand side has been the greatest extent of damage to the skirting board yes which diminishes as you go along towards the window yes thank you thank

01:47:30 towards the window yes thank you thank you well if you could do magnify them - Thank You professor just for the sake of completeness and Ralph if you could magnify figure 68 again just for the

01:47:43 magnify figure 68 again just for the second completeness professor can you just identify what this is for us yes these are the portions of the laminate flooring taken from immediately under the atoll fridge/freezer

01:47:54 the atoll fridge/freezer and slightly to both sides that were recovered by the fire investigators from flat 60 okay now tying together the evidence you've given in relation to the floor burn patterns and the burn

01:48:07 floor burn patterns and the burn patterns that you identified on the large fridge/freezer itself what is your conclusion or oh you were able to give us a conclusion as to where within the large fridge/freezer

01:48:18 where within the large fridge/freezer the initial fire may have been in your plan

01:48:21 plan looking at the these burn patterns in particular the burn pattern to the skirting board and also the damage to the sides in particular of the of the outside of the tol fridge freezer where

01:48:32 outside of the tol fridge freezer where that damage runs from the bottom to the top it would be my view that the fire was originally orientated in the base of the fridge freezer thank you

01:48:45 thank you very much you put those photographs down and professor could I ask you now to turn to page 83 of your report and paragraph eight point eight four five if I say here you say an

01:49:01 four five if I say here you say an output we're going now looking away from the large fridge/freezer itself but looking at the fuse box or what was called the consumer unit yesterday yes and you identify here the operation of

01:49:14 and you identify here the operation of the MCB first of all when you refer to the MCB it's in fact what we were calling yesterday the circuit breaker is that right it's it sounds for a miniature circuit breaker yes yesterday and just so can be read into the record

01:49:26 and just so can be read into the record you say here in my crate the operation of the MCB would have occurred before the main electrical supply to flat 16 was deactivated if mr. bajalia kuberdas recollection is correct then he operated

01:49:37 recollection is correct then he operated the main switch in the fuse box as he exited flat 16 this is important because it means that if electrical activity as a result of fire attack or a pranced failure was found within flat 16 then it

01:49:50 failure was found within flat 16 then it would have occurred within the early stages of the developing fire when the kitchen circuit circuits 7 and appliances were still energized this means of evidence of electrical activities such as arc melting could

01:50:01 activities such as arc melting could provide specific physical evidence linked to the earliest stages of the fires development which would assist in narrowing the error of fire origin as defined by the electrical system now first things first

01:50:12 first things first does that remain your view yes it does thank you very much and to the voidance of doubt is it your understanding that they tore the large fridge freezer was served by circa 7 that's my understanding yes thank you very much no

01:50:24 understanding yes thank you very much no rather you could D amplifier that paragraph and if you could amplify figure 70 and first of all a

01:50:36 and when you were referring to mr. kuberdas evidence in terms of switching off the main switch there it is identified in the down position indicating off yes and if that could be

01:50:47 indicating off yes and if that could be d amplified Ralph and if you'd amplified B and really as discussing yesterday next but one from the right hand side circuit breaker is circuit seventh which

01:50:58 circuit breaker is circuit seventh which is in the off yes correct can I now ask you to turn to paragraph eight point eight four nine and that's a page eight of five and there you

01:51:15 page eight of five and there you summarized the conclusions and dr. Glover's report my question is do you agree with the conclusions he reached in that report de Vaca damage in relation to his identification of arc damage on

01:51:28 to his identification of arc damage on MJ s 1 and j DG 1 yes thank you turning further down to eight point eight five zero you say this and I quote dr. Duncan Glover reported that he

01:51:40 dr. Duncan Glover reported that he observed evidence of alloying damage that is melting of copper and the presence of another metal which acts to reduce the temperature which copper metal mixture melts on exhibits MJ s 2 and J dg2 both of which were recovered

01:51:53 and J dg2 both of which were recovered from bps 3 which is the wiring recovered from the base of the tall fridge/freezer electrical fire experts from exponent also observed evidence of electrical activity on wiring consistent with far involvement while energized as either a

01:52:06 involvement while energized as either a cause or result of the fire does that remain your view yes it does thank you

01:52:16 and if I could ask you finally to turn to eight point eight five one in fact could be amplified Ralph again and I quote more specific examination of the electrical items and the wires recovered from the southeast corner of the kitchen

01:52:27 from the southeast corner of the kitchen of flat sixteen was undertaken by dr. Duncan Glover and the potential sequence of operation of the circuit breakers was discussed as a result of his examinations dr. Duncan Glover stated that quote is probable that the fire

01:52:39 that quote is probable that the fire origin is that the electrical component that caused the circuit break of circuit number seven the kitchen circuit to trip close quotes does that remain your view and yes it does now in relation to you

01:52:52 and yes it does now in relation to you and you and as I say you're in corporate you in the hearing yesterday yes is there anything in relation to the examination of circuit number seven that you'd wish to add to what dr. Glover

01:53:05 you'd wish to add to what dr. Glover said yesterday in terms of the examination of circuit seven I agree that the miniature circuit breaker tripped out our operators as a result of

01:53:18 tripped out our operators as a result of a short-circuit that occurred in an appliance that was attached to that circuit and I'm not in full agreement

01:53:30 circuit and I'm not in full agreement with some of the other electrical evidence that dr. Glover gave but I'm not an electrical expert okay now if we can just deal with the bits figure 2071

01:53:41 can just deal with the bits figure 2071 first of all at page 86 now can you first of all explain for us what this is and this is a the corner of sorry a

01:53:53 and this is a the corner of sorry a diagram of the corner of the kitchen of flat 16 we've seen the diagram already and what I have done on this particular diagram is annotate where the various

01:54:04 diagram is annotate where the various items that were examined by dr. Glover and which were shown to have evidence of electrical activity in the report that and the memo that I was provided with

01:54:15 and the memo that I was provided with and what I've attempted to do is show in this figure where these particular items were recovered from so that we can put some context

01:54:26 some context and some electrical evidential boundaries around where the potential area of origin as defined by the electrical system would be thank you and

01:54:37 electrical system would be thank you and if you could D amplifier that Ralph Nick we could next turn to paragraph eight point eight point five three and this summarizes your tallying together if I

01:54:51 summarizes your tallying together if I can put it like that of the evidence is that right yes it is and to quote figure seems to illustrate society's corner flat 16 on the 9th of October when

01:55:02 flat 16 on the 9th of October when seventeen this photograph was taken often most the context of flat 16 have been removed the five patterns within this photograph illustrate physical evidence that's just the area of origin of the far to be within the southeast part of the kitchen these fire patterns

01:55:14 part of the kitchen these fire patterns include worn burn pattern on the laminate floor correspond

01:55:23 thank you corresponding to the position the tall fridge/freezer to position of melting on the socket and conduit on the wall next the tall fridge/freezer the lowest area of burning the skirting board in southeast part of the kitchen

01:55:34 board in southeast part of the kitchen corresponds to the position the tall fridge/freezer that remains your for you I assume yes it does thank you now could I turn to the second substantive topic that you

01:55:45 the second substantive topic that you dealt with in your report and that was the cause of the fire and that's dealt with a section 8.9 and in your provisional report we don't need to go to it you suggested that in-depth

01:55:57 to it you suggested that in-depth analysis of the electrical system of the electrical wiring was required now an examination is being provided by dr. Glover was that the examination that you were looking for in part yes I think

01:56:09 were looking for in part yes I think that there's the examination up to this point has been non-destructive the there is also the option of undertaking destructive analysis that may provide

01:56:20 destructive analysis that may provide further information in regards to the earlier or the areas of electrical activity that might have occurred how productive do you think destructive

01:56:31 productive do you think destructive testing would be in providing more definitive evidence that's very hard for me to say because I'm not an electrical expert I'm aware of the fact that there is other testing that could be carried

01:56:44 is other testing that could be carried out that might provide some greater evidence or more evidence that for example electrical activity occurred or electrical activity as a result of the

01:56:55 electrical activity as a result of the fire might have occurred in some of the conductor's perhaps that dr. Glover was talking about yesterday okay now in relation to cause itself clarity to turn to paragraph eight point nine point five

01:57:06 to paragraph eight point nine point five at page 88

01:57:18 and that was the conclusion you set out in the report in terms of cause I it was undetermined now mindful again reminding myself that

01:57:31 mindful again reminding myself that you've set yourself the balance of probabilities sorry this is this is not that this is about the area of origin not about the course our eight point nine point five at the bottom page 88

01:57:49 sorry thank you for us that's okay there ask the question again I think I probably had quote personal setup there is your conclusion relation to cause yes

01:58:00 is your conclusion relation to cause yes now reminding ourselves that you set yourself the balance of probabilities having regard to the evidence that you've considered and having regard to the report that dr. Glover provided

01:58:12 the report that dr. Glover provided which we reviewed within this report are you able to conclude at least on the balance of probabilities that the origin the fire was in the tall fridge/freezer in terms of the origin yes yes now in terms of cause of the fire I'm taking it

01:58:25 terms of cause of the fire I'm taking it step by step what's your view as to whether the cause of the fire was electrical or non electrical I think gathering all of the evidence together

01:58:37 gathering all of the evidence together and in particular the physical evidence which provides in my view very strong evidence to suggest that the area of origin of the fire was in the base of the fridge/freezer and that evidence

01:58:49 the fridge/freezer and that evidence includes the burn patterns on the floor the skirting board and some of the electrical evidence that from dr. Glover particularly relating to the alloying of

01:59:00 particularly relating to the alloying of the of the conductors in that area on the basis of that and it would be my view that the cause of the fire was electrical in origin but the exact

01:59:12 electrical in origin but the exact nature of that cause what particular electrical components remains undetermined in my view and I think you've emphasized in your report that your expertise doesn't lie in forensic

01:59:24 your expertise doesn't lie in forensic electrical examination correct and would it flow from your answer that determining precise cause would be best determined by a forensic Electrical yes absolutely thank you

01:59:38 apology if I'm pressing you on the point but looking at as to your answer that it's more likely than not that it was an electrical cause electrical in nature electrical in nature how confident are

01:59:49 electrical in nature how confident are you in relation to that conclusion and I'm confident that that's that's my conclusion thank you the next topic I'd

02:00:01 conclusion thank you the next topic I'd like to cover is the nature of the cause and it's really whether though it was an accident deliberate or whatever okay and if I could ask you to turn to page 97

02:00:17 and paragraph 9 point 4 you say in the latter part of paragraph 9 point 4 quote it is more likely than not to be an

02:00:29 it is more likely than not to be an accidental cause now if I could look at the evidence that you've relied upon for coming to that conclusion first of all am i right in thinking that the material gathered from the window end of flat

02:00:40 gathered from the window end of flat sixteens kitchen was examined using the services of a hydrocarbon dog yes this is and they're called hydrocarbon dogs or arson dogs and these are animals that are trained to detect

02:00:53 are animals that are trained to detect the presence of particular chemicals that are in ignitable liquids and as you said really the dog is looking for any liquid accelerants that might have

02:01:04 liquid accelerants that might have played a role in the cause of the fires that it's looking for the presence of liquid accelerant materials or liquid ignited the liquid so an ignitable liquid materials sorry and what was the

02:01:15 liquid materials sorry and what was the result of the examination that was carried out using the services of the hydrocarbon dog and the results so the dogs are used as a tool simply to try to help the fire investigators in regards to the possible presence of an ignitable

02:01:27 to the possible presence of an ignitable liquid that doesn't necessarily mean the ignitable liquid wasn't there for legitimate cause in this particular case the dog was deployed in the kitchen as is my understanding and the result of

02:01:39 is my understanding and the result of that particular deployment was a negative result by that I mean there was no ignitable liquid residue detected as determined by the dog okay and to be more specific is it right

02:01:51 okay and to be more specific is it right for the samples of the laminate floor are also analyzed for the presence of ignitable fluid yes they were examined by key forensic services and again am i right in thinking of that produced a negative result and their conclusion was

02:02:03 negative result and their conclusion was there was no ignitable liquid present in those samples are you satisfied that the presence of an external accelerant such as petrol or some other similar substance in the area of origin can be discounted yes absolutely yes thank you

02:02:15 discounted yes absolutely yes thank you is there any evidence you've seen which would indicate anything other than an accidental cause no thank you penultimate topic I'd like to cover with you professor and that's the spread of

02:02:27 you professor and that's the spread of the fire within flat 16 yes now your analysis is set out in section 8 point 10 of your report in the particular paragraph 8.10 point 10 and if I get to

02:02:38 paragraph 8.10 point 10 and if I get to ask rather the five that and that paragraph says this within the kit and I quote within the quit ship kitchen there

02:02:50 quote within the quit ship kitchen there appears to be more fire damage at a level above the work tops of the exception of one damaged the external surfaces of cupboards closest to the hallway to the damage revealed to the laminate flooring under the tore fridge

02:03:01 laminate flooring under the tore fridge freeze in the southeast corner three a burn pattern that reaches to the floor to the north side by the window associated most likely with the combustion of the old freezer and smaller fridge the report to be present

02:03:12 smaller fridge the report to be present in this area by mr. Balak abating it is uncertain when these items became involved in the fire other than it was after the initial fire in the kitchen there was less fire damage in the

02:03:23 there was less fire damage in the adjacent living room than in the kitchen the sliding doors between kitchen and living room had burned away and the fire pattern generated by the combustion of the unplugged old freezer and smaller fridge can be seen penetrating into the

02:03:35 fridge can be seen penetrating into the living room near the opening left by the living room sliding doors now stopping there does that remain your view yes your now in terms of spread within flat

02:03:46 your now in terms of spread within flat 16 first of all did you listen to Professor Bisbee's evidence yes I did it in light of that and in light of your broader consideration the evidence is there any further assistance you can

02:03:57 there any further assistance you can provide the inquiry in relation to the spray

02:04:00 spray within the kitchen of flat 16 no I don't believe so thank you now the final topic

02:04:12 believe so thank you now the final topic I'd like to your assistance on really the final question I asked dr. Glover yesterday related to experience in the u.s. of metal backings two fridges first of all in your experience do you

02:04:24 first of all in your experience do you have as well have you had any experience or knowledge of the success of metal box containing fires within domestic fridge freezers or domestic fridges for that

02:04:35 freezers or domestic fridges for that matter only almost a layman's knowledge so there's been some work done within the UK by the London Fire Brigade looking at the speed at which flames can

02:04:50 looking at the speed at which flames can develop outside of our up against the back of fridge freezers some of which are plastic packed and some of which are metal that and those tests show quite

02:05:02 metal that and those tests show quite clearly their video tests and those two or video tests and though those tests show quite clearly that the spread of the flame out of the appliance and up the back of it is is slowed down by

02:05:15 the back of it is is slowed down by having a metallic back now I would note that the two tests are done where the fridge freezers that are being burnt are facing outwards so they're not in a

02:05:26 facing outwards so they're not in a corner configuration or they're not placed in Scituate Sun certain as to how how much of a retarding effect in terms of flame growth this would have in a

02:05:39 of flame growth this would have in a kitchen appliance placed within the kitchen if you like Thank You professor those are all the questions I've got for now sir Mayo's for the customary break to see if there any other matters yes I haven't covered which I ought to have

02:05:50 haven't covered which I ought to have done right well counsel needs a moment to check his questions will rise to five minutes to give them that opportunity so I'd give the usher thank you we'll come

02:06:01 I'd give the usher thank you we'll come back

02:06:01 back five this time

02:06:10 right mister can you don't say 12 of them Thanks

02:07:15 you

02:08:11 you

02:15:59 we'll get the professor back then you can turn this Watson thanks it what's in waiting

02:16:16 yes thank you are there more questions perhaps carotids 8:1 what Thank You professor

02:16:23 professor first of all mindful that you're not a forensic electrical engineer was there anything in dr. Glover's report or addendum that caused you to change your view first of all on area of origin sorry could you say that again please

02:16:35 sorry could you say that again please yes you're not a forensic electrical engineer yes was there anything in dr. Glover's report or addendum that caused you to change your view on first of all

02:16:46 you to change your view on first of all area of origin no again it was there anything in dr. Glover's report or addendum that caused you to change your view that in relation to cause it was

02:16:57 view that in relation to cause it was electrical in origin it was electrical in nature that major I would put it yes and there's nothing no sorry I beg your pardon

02:17:06 pardon no there was nothing that caused me to change my view I'm very grateful professor that leads me say thank you very much for coming to give your evidence day very much appreciated thank you yes but it certainly is I'd like to thank you very much on behalf of all of

02:17:17 thank you very much on behalf of all of us for putting your undoubted expertise at our disposal for writing these reports and for coming along to explain to us thank you sir there have been very interesting and very useful thank you it was a privilege thank you thank you

02:17:29 was a privilege thank you thank you right well that's it sighs all concerned and if you'd like to give the outer shield look after you thank you thank you very much

02:17:46 remember to commune so safer warm matter if that concludes the evidence of today the outstanding matter is that I am required to read in certain position statements that have been received by

02:17:57 statements that have been received by the inquiry and if I may ask Ralph to draw up inquiry documents as inq Quinn tuple 0 5 double 3-1

02:18:19 and sir mayor formerly read in the position statements of the mhm CLG the Home Office the lfb the Mayor of London and RB Casey and the supporting end

02:18:30 and RB Casey and the supporting end notes and exhibits thank you and for the benefit of those who may be wondering what on earth you're doing these are positions that has been asked position statements which have been provided by

02:18:41 statements which have been provided by those bodies in response to requests from the inquiry to tell us what steps they've taken in response to the disaster that's right sir and with that that concludes today's evidence thank

02:18:52 that concludes today's evidence thank you very much so we'll break though we'll sit again tomorrow at ten o'clock when we all hear from another expert witness to the enviros good thank you

02:19:03 witness to the enviros good thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please