Expert evidence from Dr Barbara Lane on the lifts and smoke ventilation systems at Grenfell Tower
00:10:08 all right to go on yes thank you very much yes thank you so I now want to ask you some questions about the fire lift at Granville Tower for which purpose we
00:10:21 at Granville Tower for which purpose we will mainly be in Appendix L of your report
00:10:26 report so as you explained in your presentation in June of this year the lifts at Granville Tower were renovated in 2005 that's correct and that work was carried
00:10:38 that's correct and that work was carried out by apex as contractor against a butler and young specifications correct and you say in your report that at that time it was a proved document B mm that
00:10:50 time it was a proved document B mm that was the relevant statutory guidance under the building regulation that's correct and you say that a proved ocular B mm required conformity to a particular British standard and that's BS 5 5 8 8 5
00:11:04 British standard and that's BS 5 5 8 8 5 1991 which was the relevant standard at the time of those lift replacement works yes
00:11:11 now you say in your report that the butler and Young's specification did not provide for a full firefighting lift we're gonna look at the difference between that and a fire lift in a moment
00:11:24 between that and a fire lift in a moment but I just want to be clear so it was not specified to be a full firefighting lift is that right based on the evidence provided to me yeah and nor did it specify compliance with that British
00:11:37 specify compliance with that British standard I just referred to you you make that point in your yes I don't make that point and you note that despite the tier Mo's policy that when the lifts are being refurbished the reinstalled lift
00:11:49 being refurbished the reinstalled lift should be upgraded to a firefighter lift the lift is not upgraded to that standard but it was replaced with another fire lift is that correct that's correct now can we just go back to CP 3
00:12:04 correct now can we just go back to CP 3 1971 and just looked at what a fire lift was required to have under that standard yes and so if we go to figure L point two in your report bas five zeros 33 at
00:12:17 two in your report bas five zeros 33 at page 10 if we can just yeah thank you so here you you've given the kind of
00:12:28 so here you you've given the kind of basic file if requirements and that standard in 1971 yes and and you've got them in in labels here yes so we've got
00:12:39 them in in labels here yes so we've got an independent power supply various things about cabling serving every residential level and then a fire switch at access level and that's right yes so
00:12:51 at access level and that's right yes so that was a far switch to enable it to be taken into a firefighter controls at Rarity's
00:12:57 Rarity's so that's and we've got a minimum lyft car area that's a basic fire lift is that correct what we see there well they they good they lived i met your
00:13:08 they good they lived i met your dimensions are made clear yeah yeah yeah and also it should serve every residential level and then there's a walking distance to the door of the lift yep now can we just look you've put the
00:13:22 yep now can we just look you've put the features of a full firefighting lift in a figure L point L one of your report where we see those in diagram form that's on page seven with in chapter 33
00:13:35 that's on page seven with in chapter 33 yes perhaps if we can pull that up and again and so you went through a number of these features in your presentation yes Gina just this is just to remind
00:13:46 yes Gina just this is just to remind ourselves of what a full firefighting lift requires yes so it so oh sorry yeah I mean take it from the top an independent primary and secondary power
00:13:58 independent primary and secondary power supplies that's a key feature yes it's a key feature to ensure operation in an emergency water ingress protection again yeah that the fourth layer down and on
00:14:10 yeah that the fourth layer down and on the last I'm just I'm just highlighting some of the key features we've got them all in labels here the provision of an escape hatch within the lift Cove yes for the fire brigade yes a compliant intercom system so
00:14:26 yes a compliant intercom system so you've got a to talk about a two-way intercom from the lift cartel you seen really an access level exactly so you can communicate with someone outside the lift or for other reasons off at the machine room yep and and again we also
00:14:38 machine room yep and and again we also see the far switch at access level yes and fire resisting London doors yep yep so those are all the features if you were to do a firefighting lift yes I
00:14:50 were to do a firefighting lift yes I mean that's a summary of a very you know and the longer British standard yes yes and you've also noted in your report that the TMO has its own definition of a firefighting lift and what you say is
00:15:02 firefighting lift and what you say is that that doesn't replicate the provisions of any design standard that you're aware of as I read it I don't know the base as far their definition
00:15:13 know the base as far their definition now what you said is even looking at the lower fire lift standards you've seen no evidence that in 2005 both lifts were
00:15:24 evidence that in 2005 both lifts were connected to fire control switches is that correct in 2005 yeah or to the 2005 stand yeah
00:15:35 in 2005 yeah or to the 2005 stand yeah in 2005 you you say you found there evidence that the lifts were connected to fire control switches you say the button of a young specification did not specify the provision of a fireman's
00:15:46 specify the provision of a fireman's control to any specific code or guidance is that correct yes that's correct not that I didn't understood yes I think it's my question yes and and you've also
00:15:58 it's my question yes and and you've also noted that the relevant which is standard the one we referred to earlier BS 5 5 8 8 5 1991 required some very particular features for the firefighting
00:16:09 particular features for the firefighting switch operation is that correct yes it is now you set these out a paragraph L three point three point six and following of your report perhaps we can
00:16:22 following of your report perhaps we can just bring that up on screen we don't need to go through all the details of it but it's a BL as50 33 page pages 12 and their team if it page 12 first so I
00:16:34 their team if it page 12 first so I think at the bottom of that page you've included all their different
00:16:45 included all their different requirements for a fire fighting lift switch sorry yeah it goes on to the next page yes this is this list here so there's a there's a long list here but if I can just try and understand in
00:17:00 if I can just try and understand in summary what you're saying this shows it in essence is it right that such a switch should enable the firefighters to bring the lift back to their access level and then take control of the lift
00:17:12 level and then take control of the lift yes and prevent its use by any other person from a lobby exactly so it's taken out of all normal operation exactly so if you're a resident on floor
00:17:23 exactly so if you're a resident on floor 10 and you press the switch it should obviously bond to that exactly and if you happen to have press the switch and you're waiting and the lift was taken under control whilst you were waiting
00:17:35 under control whilst you were waiting again it wouldn't respond to your earlier call and the way in which the firefighters control the lift is by by putting pressure on certain switches
00:17:48 putting pressure on certain switches within the lift car itself yeah so in that standard once it it comes to where the fire control point is and then the
00:17:59 the fire control point is and then the fire brigade can enter that lift and use the keys in sight so I'll use the buttons inside the lift car to go to a floor and open the door slowly on that
00:18:11 floor and open the door slowly on that floor yeah so it's basically under complete sole firefighter control yes it exactly if the switch works yes that's correct
00:18:20 correct yep and you've noted and in your inspections at grenfell tower as it existed at the time of the fire that there are two fireman's control switches yes I did
00:18:31 yes I did there's one at ground floor yes and one at level two yes let's just go to photographs of those if this is figure L 11 the la s5 zeros there
00:18:43 11 the la s5 zeros there two three at page 25 so there we can see the switch that was present on ground
00:18:55 the switch that was present on ground level yes yes and the switch at level two that's correct and they face got fire control written on them they're slightly they're different slightly different shapes yeah
00:19:06 different slightly different shapes yeah and what you've said in your report is this right is that you don't know if one or both of the switches at ground and level two were kept in 2005 or if they
00:19:17 level two were kept in 2005 or if they were new if there was a change during the refurbishment you were a little bit worried about the history of these switches exactly so there should only be one because there's no way of
00:19:29 one because there's no way of understanding which if one husband if there's not meant to be - and if there is - which one takes priority okay and I haven't I've reviewed all sorts of documentation so when I say I don't know
00:19:41 documentation so when I say I don't know it's not for want of trying to find the information as such and I I don't know which switch was installed in 2005 or if
00:19:57 which switch was installed in 2005 or if one was added during the primary refurbishment or if they both existed before 2005 or there they were both new are both old apologies for rambling but it's a rambley subject so in short I
00:20:11 it's a rambley subject so in short I have no idea when each switch was installed at any stage yep now we're
00:20:22 installed at any stage yep now we're going to come back to these switches in the moment in the principal refurbishment you've ascertained that the extent of the work that were carried out to the lifts was basically to new
00:20:33 out to the lifts was basically to new landing doors to the lift shaft on levels 1 & 2 yes because of the new flats that were being converted and takes time to use at that time exactly works to allow it to stop to load the
00:20:45 works to allow it to stop to load the lifts to stop at every floor and you you've mentioned nothing L four point three point eight of your what the extent of that work was and you say that the scope of work did not
00:20:56 say that the scope of work did not include fire control switches at this time in terms of what you can ascertain is that correct based on the evidence provided to me yes yeah now in terms of the lifts performance on the night and
00:21:09 the lifts performance on the night and what you've concluded is that the basic fire lift function the override switch we were just looking at did not work on the night yes so basically so when I wrote my first draft of this report the
00:21:25 wrote my first draft of this report the evidence from the firefighters was a key was placed at the ground floor fire control key point and they considered
00:21:36 control key point and they considered that nothing happened yeah we're gonna count again and we're gonna come to this so and just in terms of the switch on the ground floor as you just said we
00:21:49 the ground floor as you just said we know that firefighter secret tried to use a drop key to activate it yes but couldn't get the lift to return to ground when he and attempted to operate the override switch we can see an image
00:22:00 the override switch we can see an image of that if we go in your report BL as50 is 33 at page 39 forget L 20 yes and if we blow that figure up so there we see
00:22:14 we blow that figure up so there we see firefighter secret and he's put a key into the switch yes what we can see and that's what you're referring to yes I'm in your report and then his evidence that nothing happened yeah
00:22:25 that nothing happened yeah now you also note that the lift remained in general operation and was used by residents during the fire yes based on the evidence from the night again we'll
00:22:36 the evidence from the night again we'll come back to that now you now have and you had at the time of writing your revised report the benefits of a report from WSP which was prepared for the
00:22:47 from WSP which was prepared for the Metropolitan Police Service that's correct and we'll we'll look at some aspects of that report in a moment but just to summarize that report first of all shows that the level two
00:22:59 first of all shows that the level two override switch had no wires connected to the fireman's which that's correct say that that level two switch which is still there doesn't look like it was connected exactly and
00:23:10 look like it was connected exactly and if it was not connected some note as an absolute minimum notification should have been present in that location for the fire brigade but far more preferably
00:23:24 the fire brigade but far more preferably that switch should have been removed now WSP also state in the report that they tried to activate the fireman's switch on the ground floor and it was quite
00:23:35 on the ground floor and it was quite difficult to operate that's correct so is your understanding that they did try and operate it as part of their investigation yes they did in turn I've read their activities they tried to
00:23:48 read their activities they tried to place the the drop key in it in the wall and they also removed the box mechanism from the wall and made further attempts
00:23:59 from the wall and made further attempts there yes and neither were successful because the mechanism is jammed or seized be moved we can go to that in the report so they remove the faceplate so
00:24:12 report so they remove the faceplate so they did a destructive examination yes they went on looked at the innards on yep and they say they discovered that the mechanism was seized and damaged straight deformed yes can we just look
00:24:23 straight deformed yes can we just look at that so that's bigger el 18 BL as50 is 33 pages 31 to 32
00:24:53 so the left here is the level to switch yes a face plate remove where they found the wires were not correct connected as less that's correct and the right is the ground level switch with
00:25:05 right is the ground level switch with the face plate removed yes and the mechanisms are the back they're hanging down and they found that to be deformed and damaged yes I'll have to rely on their physical activity on-site which
00:25:18 their physical activity on-site which I'm happy to do so yeah and do you think that that's consistent with the evidence of firefighter secret as to the problems he encountered activating the switch on the night I very much do yes and do you
00:25:30 the night I very much do yes and do you think it signifies a potential maintenance failure with the switch in terms of maintaining is there is a duty to test those switches the duty to
00:25:41 to test those switches the duty to understand if they're connected or not and so yes there are there is a duty to maintain life safety equipment at all
00:25:52 maintain life safety equipment at all times in any building do you think it's possible that the reason firefighter secret could not operate the switch is that he was using a drop key which didn't have a pin across it to stop the
00:26:04 didn't have a pin across it to stop the pin going too far into that the the access point there no I do not
00:26:14 and can you just explain why why you don't is that because of other evidence you've seen for I have other evidence has been provided to me and when the
00:26:27 has been provided to me and when the drop key is in the correct position in a in a mechanism the same as grandfa tyre there is no need for the key to be
00:26:38 there is no need for the key to be pushed as far as hitting off that split pin so it's in the correct position and then there is a gap and then there's the split pin so you can't push it further I
00:26:52 split pin so you can't push it further I don't understand therefore I don't understand the relevance of the split pin in that evidence santen and you've also said in your report that it remains
00:27:04 also said in your report that it remains unclear to you whether that ground floor override switch which does seem to have been wired at that point yes was in fact interfaced with the lift controllers in
00:27:16 interfaced with the lift controllers in the lift plant room and if interfaced whether it was operable yes so again WSP have various findings from site and as a result of their
00:27:29 site and as a result of their observations I actually don't know now if both lifts or one lift is a fire lift which one was connected to two to the
00:27:43 which one was connected to two to the key switch and therefore how everything was meant to work both and one and if it was one which one was it the drop key has a mechanical operation
00:27:55 the drop key has a mechanical operation does it it's it's in itself mechanical but I as my understanding is that it formed some kind of circuit and that should then be connected to an interface
00:28:06 should then be connected to an interface somewhere else which would send a signal absolutely outside my electrical engineering absolutely outside my area of expertise I couldn't help noticing in one of the earlier pictures yes someone
00:28:18 one of the earlier pictures yes someone seemed to be holding what might be a drop
00:28:22 drop would you recognize one if you saw it oh I would yes go figure L 11 BL as50 is 33 at page 25 yeah so
00:28:36 L 11 BL as50 is 33 at page 25 yeah so every lift at most of the country will be cross when I describe it this way is that's a drop key for these old-style control right and you can see that's
00:28:51 control right and you can see that's because this this portion dropped you push it in on the horizontal and it drops down once it gets to the right part for it to drop down in behind this plate and that's the old style express
00:29:04 plate and that's the old style express key there as well yep well illustrated in the WSPU yeah that point about the interfacing and whether these switches
00:29:16 interfacing and whether these switches this switch was interfaced with the lift controllers is that something you think could be investigated further I think it very much needs to be investigators to consult considerable detail and this is probably a good point to note isn't it
00:29:29 probably a good point to note isn't it that you have recommended in your latest report that the inquiry should appoint a specialist lift expert to look at this yes I do because getting into the complex question of what's connected
00:29:40 complex question of what's connected where how why and there WSP also found some curious connections where it may have been connected to the detection system linked to the smoke control panel
00:29:52 system linked to the smoke control panel which I don't understand at all so that those interfaces from the lift are very important to understand that yep
00:30:02 just a couple of questions about the lift as a mode of evacuation for those with mobility proponents you consider that Graham for tower was non-compliant with the b1 means of escape provision
00:30:14 with the b1 means of escape provision and in particular you say that a preview McVie does not make specific requirements but that you think b1 would require an adequate means of escape for those who have mobility problems is that
00:30:26 those who have mobility problems is that correct yeah so the functional requirement is clear that everyone can evacuate the building independently without assistance the statutory guidance then doesn't make any
00:30:37 statutory guidance then doesn't make any specific provision in residential buildings for those that require assistance and you you've noted in your report that approved document b 2010
00:30:49 report that approved document b 2010 states that those in wheelchairs will need evacuation by lifts and in particular paragraph 5.39 of ADB allows for five a firefighter lift to be used to evacuate those with mobility problem
00:31:01 to evacuate those with mobility problem that's correct so that's there in that guidance it is it is and that a common means of providing assistance using the firefighting lift with all the additional protection measures whilst
00:31:14 additional protection measures whilst it's available but you know that in the event the lifts could not be used for that purpose because they were not these upgraded firefighter live exactly they're they don't have the right emergency power sources and other
00:31:28 emergency power sources and other protection measures to make them safe enough to be used to transport people around the tower that's correct now you are aware of some of the issues
00:31:40 now you are aware of some of the issues which arose on the night given that the operation of the lift stayed in normal mode yes I'm including in firefighter billet Badillo talks about getting stuck on the fifteenth
00:31:52 about getting stuck on the fifteenth when trying to go to the twentieth yes we've also had evidence from Nadia jafari about what happened to her father yes Emily yes and do you think that given that the lift couldn't be used as
00:32:04 given that the lift couldn't be used as a firefighter lift or even a fire lift on the night and then it should have been disabled in the early stages of the fire to avoid the consequences of it
00:32:15 fire to avoid the consequences of it being a normal operation is abled by whom and how that's the question yeah I mean there was have been disabled well directly if I may say it shouldn't have
00:32:27 directly if I may say it shouldn't have been provided in that condition in the first place and that should have been known
00:32:34 what about blood intent I take that point but intensive on the night do you think it might have been possible to say block the doors the firefighter equipment and take it out of operation
00:32:45 equipment and take it out of operation is that something that could have happened I just think you know I've never tried to block a lift at firefighting equipment I did observe it being done and the early stages you can
00:32:58 being done and the early stages you can see that in the CCTV as to the practicalities of a fire brigade attempting to do that with equipment in the middle of an event like this I think others should comment but up for me the
00:33:11 others should comment but up for me the primary duty was not to provide lifts in that condition in the first place can I take it that you're not yourself aware of any way in which the lift could have been put out of operation I have the
00:33:25 been put out of operation I have the other way that would be reasonably accessible I would prefer you to ask a little expert that question and then it's who do you phone what do they do how do they get there a very interesting
00:33:37 how do they get there a very interesting concept that a proper lift expert could answer all those questions now in terms of the use of the lifts in the very early stages to fight the fire in flat 16 you say in your report that the fact
00:33:50 16 you say in your report that the fact it was not a firefighter lifts may have caused a short delay and arriving at flat 16 however you've also noted in your report that given that firefighters did actually use the lifts in the event
00:34:01 did actually use the lifts in the event to transport equipment up to the bridge heads in normal mode you don't think this caused a delay to the initial firefighter response it doesn't seem to have been significant now in terms of time as they as they relay events yeah
00:34:16 just one final set of questions on this topic and do you agree that when considering whether the fact that the lifts were not firefighting lifts made a difference on the night it may be
00:34:27 difference on the night it may be relevant for example that the lfb policy was that the bridgehead is set up two floors below the fire floor and that the policy is that lifts should not be used
00:34:38 policy is that lifts should not be used above the bridgehead in a high-rise incident I think those are potentially relevant in terms of the impact of not having a firefighter lift yes yes I do and the
00:34:51 firefighter lift yes yes I do and the lifts appear to fill with smoke a fairly early stage when they were opened with lobbies and does that mean that using it for firefighting on the night may have been compromised yes it is and I think
00:35:05 been compromised yes it is and I think I've been thinking about that actually I think the overall flow of smoke through the building when that's being considered there is an interesting
00:35:16 considered there is an interesting sudden change and stays in the lifts when you look at the CCTV and I would love to understand that to a much more substantial level of detail than I do at
00:35:28 substantial level of detail than I do at the moment it's a it's a very sudden change in state and I'd like to understand what caused that was there some kind of pressure or flow situation
00:35:41 some kind of pressure or flow situation going on in the build and caused by other matters I think that would be a very interesting and useful study to do yep
00:35:50 yep just to point out to remember that the lift shaft should also be provided with a supply of clean air in in a standard pressurization system so we'll get onto
00:36:01 pressurization system so we'll get onto that so it's all interconnected where the smoke was flowing yeah in terms of the lifts also in the night of those points that we've just been discussing
00:36:12 points that we've just been discussing do you agree that the fact that the lifts were not firefighting lifts made no difference or no material difference to the development of the fire in terms of the ability of the firefighters to
00:36:23 of the ability of the firefighters to carry out firefighting in the early stages of the fire well actually at any stage III wouldn't want to try and answer that I then want to turn to the
00:36:38 answer that I then want to turn to the smoke ventilation systems and this point it's going to be appendix J which is worth having and what I'd
00:36:55 J which is worth having and what I'd like to do this is a potentially quite a complex topic but is to start by looking back at some of the slides from your presentation back on the 18th of June
00:37:08 presentation back on the 18th of June and just to give a very overall picture of how the system was configured so if we look at BL a four zeros five four
00:37:23 we look at BL a four zeros five four eight one and go to page 173 of that presentation yes so here what you've given I could give a schematic which and
00:37:35 given I could give a schematic which and shows the operation of the original smoke control system that's original as in from the 1970s my aerosol tower was built and can you just explain very
00:37:50 built and can you just explain very briefly how that original system was intended to work yes so in the event of a fire and a flat once that flat door was opened smoke would enter the lobby
00:38:06 extracted up to the roof by the north by the shafts on the north side of the lobby and fresh air was supplied into
00:38:18 lobby and fresh air was supplied into the side side of the lobby so it's a simple kind of flow of air yes it's a very simple struct yeah very simple extract system it's important to note
00:38:29 extract system it's important to note the original system was a natural system first yeah so the vents opened and the smoke move might by buoyancy first and then there was a control for the fire
00:38:41 then there was a control for the fire brigade to use where they could switch it to being a mechanical system then and then the fans would operate and extract through extract the smoke so it was natural natural ventilation
00:38:53 so it was natural natural ventilation until the fire brigade switched on a mechanical extract system and it's that what is termed a corridor smoke dispersal system dispersals yeah so it
00:39:11 dispersal system dispersals yeah so it dispersed exactly if dispersal system means you have a means of dispersed I suppose dispersing the smoke from the lobby
00:39:21 lobby yeah and it was designed to work on one floor only yes that's correct if we then go within this presentation to page 179
00:39:38 just so then you make it clear here so what we have and what will follow this through in a moment is now in Granville Terrell at the time
00:39:50 is now in Granville Terrell at the time of the fire there was a combined Lobby environmental system and a smoke control system yes correct so there became a need for environmental error control
00:40:02 need for environmental error control because of the new services placed through the lobby which could cause a buildup of heat in normal conditions and
00:40:13 buildup of heat in normal conditions and so a decision was made to make the existing system a combined environmentalists like extract system so day to day the system was used to deal
00:40:27 day to day the system was used to deal with temperature buildup in the lobbies and then in an emergency it was to switch over and become it become a means of smoke control only yep
00:40:41 and again it's designed to work on one floor only that's crowd control made and can you just very briefly against we'll get into this in the environmental mode
00:40:53 get into this in the environmental mode how is it meant to work in environmental mode there is a supply there's a supply
00:41:05 mode there is a supply there's a supply of air freshener in at level two that comes up and out on the events on the side side and then the heat is removed so that's supplying fresh air and then
00:41:18 so that's supplying fresh air and then the heat is removed by means of an environmental fan at the roof up through the north yeah and then in smoke control
00:41:30 the north yeah and then in smoke control mode just in very just overview yes in contrast how is it space to record smoke controller so so that mode of operation has to switch off and then you
00:41:42 operation has to switch off and then you extract smoke and two directions down and eight at level two and up and out at the roof now is it right that during the
00:41:58 the roof now is it right that during the refurbishment 2012 to 2016 new features were introduced to the existing smoke ventilation system yes that's correct so new fans new dampers now you've listed
00:42:12 new fans new dampers now you've listed all those out let's just look at that at J six point five point two at BL as50 31 pages 52 to 53 so again we don't need to
00:42:26 pages 52 to 53 so again we don't need to go to all of these but I just wanted to pull out some of the features what you've done here in this section of your report is to explain all the the new features that came in at the time that
00:42:37 features that came in at the time that the vent system was refurbished yeah so the existing they're called builders ducts there instead of being metal there are you know forums with blocks or concrete three existing builder's dots
00:42:49 concrete three existing builder's dots were maintained and two on either side of the knobby north side and side side and then new equipment was installed into the tower so you've got the four automatically
00:43:02 so you've got the four automatically open herbal vents or fire dampers the dampers and at every Lobby and there was a new extract fan combined with the
00:43:13 a new extract fan combined with the environmental farm placed up at the roof level and then there was new extract fans and new environmental found down at level two and then down at those lower levels a series of dampers also to allow
00:43:28 levels a series of dampers also to allow environmental mode and smoke mode to be fully it was meant to be fully separated at level two and there was the need for some new ductwork I mean level two also to bring the
00:43:39 I mean level two also to bring the system out to the external wall yep and then I think as you go on and explain them over the page there was a number of
00:43:52 them over the page there was a number of other things including new controls control panels detective yes we will come back to so there were a whole lot of new yes electronic control panels
00:44:03 of new yes electronic control panels that were introduced exactly there was it's called a human machine interface panel out in the main lobby which is a which allows day-to-day or emergency interaction with the system and then a
00:44:15 interaction with the system and then a more complex control panel in I think it's the hub room it's called yes yeah yeah and yes is it right that both the original system that was there in the 70s and the
00:44:27 system that was there in the 70s and the refurbished system with all this new work that they were both bespoke systems combining an environmental ventilation system with a sorry that they were both
00:44:38 system with a sorry that they were both this bespoke systems okay so the original system had a smaller area of vents for natural ventilation than the
00:44:49 vents for natural ventilation than the den cp3 called far I'm coming to that yeah Oh was I just meant to say yes sorry yes I guess sorry yes it would just ask me the question again where they base this very mountain with a
00:45:00 they base this very mountain with a based bespoke system
00:45:05 yes but there's a lot of caveats there I can't be I'd say yes yes oh yes merely they are yeah just in terms of that combining the environmental system and
00:45:16 combining the environmental system and the cement extract system is it common for both systems to be combined do we see that in other buildings you you can see it in other buildings yeah but I'm relying on max Fordham said
00:45:27 yeah but I'm relying on max Fordham said it was unusual in their paperwork but it it would be allowed to say it's never been done before it is done yes and is it common that sometimes both systems can share the same chance is that common
00:45:40 can share the same chance is that common it's not very common on the the north side vents and trunky yes was
00:45:51 side vents and trunky yes was essentially always there and it was always an exhaust system to the roof yes the south side started life as an inflow system yes and had to be changed as a
00:46:02 system yes and had to be changed as a result of the refurbishment indeed to an outfit yes it had to do two things when the system was operating in ventilation
00:46:14 the system was operating in ventilation or environment environmental yes what was the SAS system doing it was supplying there was a supply fan at level 2 taking air from outside the
00:46:28 at level 2 taking air from outside the building doing the same job as it was before it was it was feeding air into the system yes but for environmental reasons only correct no I probably want
00:46:42 reasons only correct no I probably want to know the answer to this but I don't want off my head when you change into smoke yes extract system did the fan on the south side simply turn the other way
00:46:53 the south side simply turn the other way or was there a second ferries the second fan so the environmental fan switches off the dampers go into a specific arrangement you sealed out a part of the
00:47:05 arrangement you sealed out a part of the system and then your extract fan goes on the dampers are opened and now you can pull the smoke down and you presumably got a second line of trunking between at some point at some
00:47:19 trunking between at some point at some point it's in which in which the extract fan is operating that's correct they shared it out of that there is a good drawing in my report I don't know if you want to look at yeah but they did share
00:47:30 want to look at yeah but they did share some of the doctor here and the dampers were placed to separate the two funds I think I understand them yes but you know sunsets meant to separate yep and then the the extract fan and ductwork are
00:47:43 the the extract fan and ductwork are safely used to extract smoke or that switches off and you go back to opening off the right piece of ductwork to the supply fan and operation environmental mode thank you very much yep we're gonna
00:47:56 mode thank you very much yep we're gonna I think we're gonna come to that dome in a moment just going back to the original system I think you just said this so you've said the key reason why you think the original system didn't comply with
00:48:07 the original system didn't comply with CP 371 was that there was an inadequately get area of the smoke shafts you said that the aggregate area was significantly lower than the area
00:48:18 was significantly lower than the area recommended it was only about naught point four eight meters squared whereas it should have been 1.5 meters yeah that's right and could that make a difference for the operation of the system when you don't have the right aggregate area yes there
00:48:31 have the right aggregate area yes there is less I suppose the best way of putting it is that there's less room for the smoke to flow out janitor boy and see and get to the top of the bill done yeah so then let's come to the newly
00:48:44 yeah so then let's come to the newly refurbished smoke control system you have in your appendix J assess that system in accordance with the guidance in a proved occupant being yes on
00:48:55 in a proved occupant being yes on thirteen and and do you agree that the design basis has seemed in a peep document be for a smoke control system is on the basis of a fire starting in a
00:49:07 is on the basis of a fire starting in a single location and being contained within a single apartment yes I do so consequently a smoke control system designed in accordance with that guidance would only be required to
00:49:18 guidance would only be required to disperse smoke from a single common lobby not in multiple lobbies multiple-level that's correct now section 2.2 seven of approved document b 2013 gives us an alternative to the
00:49:31 2013 gives us an alternative to the natural ventilation route and to compliance a mechanical option using pressure differentials is that correct yeah so if there's natural there is mechanical and there's pressure
00:49:44 mechanical and there's pressure differentials which is a form of mechanical in the village a mechanical we're going to look at the differences between those in a moment can we just look at a page document B 2013 that's CLG 5 zeroes 2 to 4 on page 28
00:50:06 you know I just want to start
00:50:15 sorry it's internal page 28 so that's two pages up I think from unis yeah and I just want to start by looking at the
00:50:26 I just want to start by looking at the bottom right-hand column smoke control of common escape routes two to five right at the very bottom so this I think tells you the purpose of providing smoke control so it says despite the
00:50:38 control so it says despite the provisions described in this a free document is probable that some smoke will get into a common corridor or Lobby from a fire and a flat if only because the entrance door will be open when the occupants escape that's cracked and then
00:50:51 occupants escape that's cracked and then if we can go on to the next page if we can just highlight the top of that page to start with so it says there should
00:51:02 to start with so it says there should therefore be some means of a ventilating the common corridors and lobbies to control smoke and so protect the common stairs this offers additional protection to that provided by the fire doors to the stand and then we see this this can
00:51:16 the stand and then we see this this can be achieved by either natural means or in accordance with paragraph two point sorry in accordance with paragraph two point two six all by means of a mechanical ventilation as described in paragraph two point two seven
00:51:28 paragraph two point two seven thus correct if we can then look at paragraph two point two seven on that same page so there it says as an
00:51:39 same page so there it says as an alternative to the natural ventilation provisions in paragraph two point two six mechanical ventilation to the stair and/or corridor Lobby may be provided to protect the stairs from smoke guidance
00:51:50 protect the stairs from smoke guidance on using the design of smoke control systems using pressure differentials is available in BS en one to 101 6 2004 it so that those are the key parts of
00:52:02 so that those are the key parts of approved document bees that's now I'm correct and so it's directing the reader to the guidance in that British standard for pressure differential system if one
00:52:15 for pressure differential system if one is
00:52:15 is going to design based on pressure differentials so just pausing there and I know you were just touching on it coming can you just first explain the difference between a natural ventilation
00:52:27 difference between a natural ventilation and mechanical ventilation system okay so just in very very very simplistic terms and again that these things are explained and substantially more detail and various pressure standards so
00:52:40 and various pressure standards so natural smoke extract system is providing an opening so smoke can leave the space by means of its own natural buoyancy when starts a mechanical system
00:52:55 buoyancy when starts a mechanical system is using fans to extract smoke from the fire zone a pressure differential system is somewhat different it does use
00:53:07 is somewhat different it does use mechanical devices but it isn't to extract smoke from the fire zone it's just stop the smoke from leaving the fire zone so it's really important that
00:53:19 fire zone so it's really important that I make clear that there is a difference between a mechanical system and a pressure differential system and what they're both what they're trying to do
00:53:30 they're both what they're trying to do so when you provide fans and other devices for a pressure differential system your goal only is to stop the smoke leaving the fire zone it isn't to
00:53:41 smoke leaving the fire zone it isn't to remove the smoke from the fire zone so you're raising the pressure in the lobby in this case I'm afraid I can't say that
00:53:52 in this case I'm afraid I can't say that here the concept the concept is you raise the pressure in a protected zone to stop the smoke leaving the fire zone
00:54:03 to stop the smoke leaving the fire zone early if there's leakages it's going to be of cleaner into the fire zone it's it's yes yes so you wouldn't need
00:54:14 it's it's yes yes so you wouldn't need you wouldn't have a sort of grills and trunking that we've got on the north side where which is simply letting air escape
00:54:24 escape and I answer can I answer that question a little bit later mmm just yeah I think so in the diagrams are about to come -
00:54:36 so in the diagrams are about to come - yeah so there is grande full Tower and then there is a pressurization and depressurization system as it should be done very simple yeah I've come across this in the
00:54:47 yeah I've come across this in the context for example of laboratories handling yes dangerous material yes so you pressurized laboratory yeah to keep the air out exactly exactly
00:54:58 the air out exactly exactly that's what should happen and so the location of your equipment must be in the right place to allow you to pressurize the right zone to prevent the
00:55:09 pressurize the right zone to prevent the products of combustion leaving the fire zone exactly so just to be clear a pressurized system that could be
00:55:21 pressurized system that could be pressurization of the stair and the lobby and the lift shaft that's that the protected space is pressurized relative to the fire zone or flat so that works
00:55:32 to the fire zone or flat so that works so there's two types of pressure differential system one where you pressurize and one where you depressurize and I'd really love to be able to refer to some diagrams while I
00:55:44 able to refer to some diagrams while I explain this yep so probably you want you to refer to your sketch I would like to make a yeah I do think it's fiendishly complex change and if we go
00:55:55 fiendishly complex change and if we go to BL as50 a I think what you've done is it for the purpose of your oral evidence yes prepared some very basic cartoons or sketches to try and help you explain
00:56:07 sketches to try and help you explain this is that correct the LA s five zeros thirty-eight
00:56:19 sorry yeah yeah so can you just talk us through this your side so pressure differential system comes in two forms pressurization system under
00:56:31 pressurization system under depressurization system and in a pressurization system air is supplied into the lift it's supplied into the
00:56:42 into the lift it's supplied into the lobby and it's supplied into the stair okay and the idea then is when you open the fire zone door the products of
00:56:54 the fire zone door the products of combustion are prevented from leaving okay so that's a pressurization system so if I'm able to look up the next one
00:57:06 okay so it's important to understand that a depressurization system in the British Standard is typically recommended for basements only where the
00:57:18 recommended for basements only where the fire zone the sealed and there the idea is you you you extract the products of combustion from the fire zone at a rate
00:57:31 combustion from the fire zone at a rate that when you open this door because of air supply in the protected space again the products of combustion cannot leave
00:57:43 the products of combustion cannot leave the fire zone so you have your pressure differential but the extract rates and design here are not to remove the products of combustion completely from the fire zone it's at at enough of a
00:57:57 the fire zone it's at at enough of a rate with with a pressure differential to prevent the smoke flowing out onto the lobby and out onto the lobby at Langley okay so pressurization or all of
00:58:11 Langley okay so pressurization or all of all the equipment focuses on the protected escape route depressurization has met a focus on the fire zone to prevent smoke leaving the fire zone
00:58:22 prevent smoke leaving the fire zone to the lobby but you want to I think it's worth sticking with these Georgia days three hours your neck suppose he's a next one so can you just explain this
00:58:36 a next one so can you just explain this is the Granville smoke ventilation system okay all right that you're talking so here I'm trying to explain that a grand full tower we appear to have a depressurization system but it it
00:58:50 have a depressurization system but it it isn't installed to deal with the fire zones instead it it's it is installed to deal with with the lobby okay and what
00:59:02 deal with with the lobby okay and what that means because of that pressure differential and the focus being the lobby once you open the fire zone door the products of combustion are attracted
00:59:14 the products of combustion are attracted out to the location of where the equipment is extracting from the lobby
00:59:25 and I think there's another slide that completes this young the nest it's not the next page the next page is blank at the epoch that's part yet that that that slide so actually if we can we just go
00:59:38 slide so actually if we can we just go back to the other side so our grand filled the the system is designed that there is an extract rate from the lobby
00:59:49 there is an extract rate from the lobby and the system is balanced such that when you open this one stair door the idea is the airflow across that door should prevent smoke leaving removal
01:00:02 should prevent smoke leaving removal from the lobby to the stair and but it assumed every other door was closed in making the calculations for that when we
01:00:13 making the calculations for that when we go to the next slide once you open a second door the area of opening if you
01:00:24 second door the area of opening if you like increases and so you can't maintain the necessary air flora cross air flow across one door because now you've two doors open and also the extract is
01:00:38 doors open and also the extract is pulling the smoke from the fire zone out so it causes two things attracting the smoke out and reducing the ability to maintain the required air floor at the airflow at that door because the second
01:00:51 airflow at that door because the second door has been opened
01:01:00 and just a few questions to build up to your preliminary views about about this so is it right that in all types of
01:01:12 so is it right that in all types of smoke control system vents on the fire floor are opened events on all other floors are closed in order to allow the full capacity of the smoke control system to be directed at a single floor typically yes can you just explain for
01:01:25 typically yes can you just explain for us why it is you've assessed the compliance of the system at this stage against the requirements of BS en 1t 101 6 2005 the British standard that we saw in a DB yes because in in the PSV
01:01:39 in a DB yes because in in the PSV documentation it refers to some specific criteria from the pressure differential standard so in the documentation you've
01:01:51 standard so in the documentation you've seen it's referring to some of the yes the DRI Tyria that are in that register yes it does and that's a pretty standard for pressure differential citizens but
01:02:03 for pressure differential citizens but it isn't called a depressurization it wasn't called a depressurization system and the documentation dated from before the fire yeah so that's what I was
01:02:16 the fire yeah so that's what I was coming on to so it's clearly not a pressurization system do you think it was a depressurization system in the sense that but there is extract from a
01:02:28 sense that but there is extract from a zone relative to the fire zone and a stated attempt in the documentation to provide a pressure differential across a
01:02:39 provide a pressure differential across a particular door and provide a flow rate across the stair door and looking at the ability to open a door and they're all features of the design basis using
01:02:52 features of the design basis using pressure differentials and is it right that that pressure differential between the stairs and the lobby that you're just talking about was minus 25 PA right
01:03:03 just talking about was minus 25 PA right that's stated in the documentation yeah what does PA stand for old Pascal's yeah yes plus - is that a unit used to measure pressure equal to 1 Newton per
01:03:14 measure pressure equal to 1 Newton per meter square yes yes and back to that British standard and you mentioned basements before do you think that the British standard only applies to depressurization systems in basements no
01:03:28 depressurization systems in basements no it says typically rather than always yeah we can perhaps look at what it actually says that paragraph j5 2.22 of
01:03:39 actually says that paragraph j5 2.22 of your report that's BL as50 is 31 at page 34 where you've set out a key part of that standard we just zoom in on that that's a different question yes yep
01:03:51 a different question yes yep and I think and is it right that it gives an example we see that in the second law yes of a basement so it says the objective of a depressurization system is to achieve the same protection
01:04:02 system is to achieve the same protection at the doorway between the depressurize space eg a basement and the protected space yeah right and in the very last part of this extract from the British
01:04:13 part of this extract from the British standard it says the the last sentence the most appropriate use of depressurization systems is likely to be in basement spaces see here you're 18 so is that why you said most frequently
01:04:24 is that why you said most frequently used in basements but you don't think it's only it can find yes and I think that's got to do with just the earlier sentence banded on all sides by fire resistant construction just slightly up
01:04:35 resistant construction just slightly up there to be effective each depressurize base shall be banded on all sides by fire resistant constructions because any loss of integrity would result in
01:04:46 loss of integrity would result in equalization of pressure between the depressurize own and the external air so to cut a very long story short if you know a window can break the balancing of
01:04:57 know a window can break the balancing of your system is lost yeah and that's why in a basement space you know that risk isn't there yeah okay and is that why it's so important to know what you're doing about doors being opened I mean I
01:05:10 doing about doors being opened I mean I will come onto that board or it's going to offence your you can say it's it's your your the purpose of all your design decisions
01:05:21 purpose of all your design decisions decisions are to create what I would call a balanced system with the correct openings allowed for now it's your
01:05:32 openings allowed for now it's your position that that British standards that we're just reading from could be viewed as setting out functional objectives or measurable performance requirements which could be used to
01:05:43 requirements which could be used to assess the adequacy of a pressure and pressure differential system as against the building regulations is that one way you could use it I'm not strictly following every letter of it but looking
01:05:54 following every letter of it but looking at functional objectives or performance requirements that it's setting yes I do it actually is very clear on functional
01:06:07 it actually is very clear on functional objectives particularly when it gets to explaining where the smoke should not go in terms of a single stair and lobby
01:06:18 in terms of a single stair and lobby used for firefighting so I think that pretty standard is very clear on functional objectives and then it gives additional guidance on how to achieve them now is it right that you've said in
01:06:32 them now is it right that you've said in your reports and your latest report that you'd like to be provided with evidence from the design team at phase two about what route to compliance they thought they were adopting and that you will you
01:06:44 they were adopting and that you will you will review any such evidence before you reach any final view on compliance of the system that's correct and I think you've already accepted that the building regulations require the system
01:06:56 building regulations require the system to be no worse than the original smoke fences I don't accept that I know but you haven't considered anything to do with the non worsening principle yet I haven't I haven't done that and it will
01:07:10 haven't I haven't done that and it will be interesting to see the calculations as to what the original mechanical extract system could do - this Russian now would you agree that
01:07:22 - this Russian now would you agree that a smoke ventilation system using pressure differential principles is not the only type of mechanical ventilation system which could be completed acceptable and to comply with the
01:07:34 acceptable and to comply with the building regulations yes I do and do you agree that tailor-made solutions can be appropriate tailor-made solutions that deliver on the required
01:07:45 solutions that deliver on the required life safety objectives and fire safety objectives yes and this pressure standard is very clear that the stair and lobby are to be kept safe for
01:07:58 and lobby are to be kept safe for firefighting purposes when the flak door is open and multiple other doors are open at the same time would you agree that most smoke ventilation systems are
01:08:10 that most smoke ventilation systems are usually bespoke and that they don't use natural ventilation or pressurization or depressurize principles no I would not would you agree that there are known alternatives to such systems such as the
01:08:23 alternatives to such systems such as the BRE shaft system or the cult's shaft system I'm aware that they exist or either of those similar to what was installed at grandpa's I don't I don't want to answer that question at the
01:08:34 want to answer that question at the moment because you don't have enough information I don't have enough information and I haven't done a proper comparison of those systems to give my view I'm happy to do so could such
01:08:46 view I'm happy to do so could such systems comply with the functional requirements of the building regulations in principle if they were designed and installed appropriately okay so I want to turn what I'm going to do is just turn to your current assessment of the
01:09:00 turn to your current assessment of the system and then and just look in general at that and then I think before we get to smoke dampers we might take a break so if I can just do a few questions
01:09:11 so if I can just do a few questions before that so what you have concluded is this right is that the system appears to have been intended to comply with one aspect of that british standard namely the airflow performance of a Class B
01:09:23 the airflow performance of a Class B pressure differential system as divine as defined in that space yes it refers to the airflow across the stair to lobby door and it also
01:09:35 the stair to lobby door and it also refers to the correct for us to allow one to open that door but it's as I understand your evidence you consider
01:09:46 understand your evidence you consider that there are five key requirements for a Class B system not just that airflow performance and that includes a pressure differential criterion is that correct yes we can see those five key
01:09:59 yes we can see those five key requirements listed out in your paragraph J five point two point sixteen if we could just bring that up that's BL as50 is 31 points 33 and so you'll be
01:10:16 as50 is 31 points 33 and so you'll be listening around yeah that's it that's it easier so a class the pressure differential system is for the purposes of protecting a firefighting stare and lobby so and there's some and so it
01:10:33 lobby so and there's some and so it requires the designer to consider the flat door being open the stair door on that on that lobby being open as well as
01:10:45 that on that lobby being open as well as the stair door below and also there's requirements for the lift so the door the there's rules for providing the right pressures and they're multiple
01:10:57 right pressures and they're multiple requirements the right airflow and they're multiple requirements also air supply and various other things so all together they provide a ballot system
01:11:11 together they provide a ballot system that keeps smoke away from the lobby and stair as a result with flowing out of the flats can we go to your figure Jay fifty I think this is where we see a
01:11:23 fifty I think this is where we see a good diagram that you've marked up of the refurbished system that's B la s that's it yep if we can blow that up
01:11:34 so there this is your attempt to try and explain the programmed operation of the smoke control system is that correct yes that it operates on one floor yeah and
01:11:48 that it operates on one floor yeah and the smoke is extracted down the saved shaft and off the North shaft so that's what so we see it going out of the South shaft yeah up and out of yes removal of
01:12:01 shaft yeah up and out of yes removal of the air from the lobby yes and you say design intent T meters per square P the one open stair door yes exactly so that
01:12:12 one open stair door yes exactly so that that air flow was designed for with the stair door open that the system would cause that air flow at that door and prevent the smoke flowing into the stair
01:12:23 prevent the smoke flowing into the stair but in the in this design no other door being open was provided for so everything was shut
01:12:34 everything was shut except the stair door if the system is operating it's taking out of the lobby yes two different directions yes yes to
01:12:48 yes two different directions yes yes to that extent it exerting some degree of pressure on the stair door keep it closed
01:12:54 closed yes the stair door ought to be fitted with smoke steels yes but it still that's enough air in does it to compensate for the loss of pressure in the lobby you one has to make that
01:13:10 the lobby you one has to make that decision during design how you are going to allow that release of the bathroom so you're gonna open the door in layman's terms you've got to get here from somewhere you certainly do and it could
01:13:21 somewhere you certainly do and it could come from the flat surrounding lobby yes those doors may not be a correct weight the airtight correct there should be smoke tight it should be same with the stair door or you might
01:13:33 same with the stair door or you might provide air release act you might provide something specific in the lobby to allow that air release okay but as soon as you open the door to
01:13:44 okay but as soon as you open the door to the flat where the fire is yes ey never be beginning name of sucking combustion product out of that flat that's correct
01:13:57 thank you yes and just back to how this was meant to work so as he explained earlier the environmental system was to deactivate shutting down and isolating the
01:14:09 shutting down and isolating the environmental fans at lower level yes and then the automatic opening vents on the fire floor only were to open that correct and all other floors the
01:14:20 correct and all other floors the automatic opening vents were men were estate shut they were to shut if they were open or staying shut and and they're the role of those dampers we're going to come back to this in a little
01:14:32 going to come back to this in a little bit of time but there they are to stop the flow of air through a duct is that what a damper does so we have dampers all the way up don't we on the a Ovie's
01:14:44 all the way up don't we on the a Ovie's yes
01:14:46 yes so those dampers shut to seal that riser like it's almost like closing the compartment and so it prevents anything
01:14:58 compartment and so it prevents anything leaving the duct ideally as it's moving down to the site down to the sides up to the north that's one way one reason why
01:15:09 the north that's one way one reason why it seals and it's also trying to it's also acting as the wall if you will to prevent fire and smoke products from other floors so dampers are if they're almost it's like a door sealing a compartment again
01:15:21 like a door sealing a compartment again you're closing a hole in a protected riser now in this diagram you've identified some concerns you have about
01:15:32 identified some concerns you have about the way the system was set up to run at the bottom in little red boxes yeah or any of those likely to have made a difference on the night given that so I
01:15:44 difference on the night given that so I don't I don't know and I've made clear in my reports what I need to know it's either adjust a just a paperwork error so the papers I have and aren't up to date but at the moment it doesn't look
01:15:56 date but at the moment it doesn't look based on the programming in the panel it doesn't appear there is a proper power supply in an inn and age of those dampers but that's why I've asked
01:16:08 those dampers but that's why I've asked for a documentation to confirm either way you know I just want to try and summarize your current views about the design of the system based on what
01:16:19 design of the system based on what you've seen today so you've said that a ground-floor Tower it was a a system whereby each flat should have been a depressurize own but in fact it was a
01:16:31 depressurize own but in fact it was a system which depressurize the lobbies relative to the flats and the stairs and that's not a system and visited by the British Standards not as I understand and you say that the airflow criterion in the British standard is that a
01:16:43 in the British standard is that a minimum airflow of 2 meters per second is through the open door between the lobby and the fire that means exists but is it right that the design at Grenville was such that the system was said to
01:16:55 was such that the system was said to provide an average open daughter's velocity with no other open door condition that's correct as I read the the technical specification yes so you
01:17:06 the technical specification yes so you have a concern at the moment that there may have been no allowance for the fact that both the flat door and the stair door might have to be open during firefighting operations and the system should still be able to deal with that
01:17:17 should still be able to deal with that yes that's the whole functional point of a Class B system which is to aid firefighter and you've also referred to
01:17:28 firefighter and you've also referred to the fact that it provides for a single pressure differential of minus 25 Pascal's which was not referred to in the British standards that's correct that referred to pressure differential
01:17:39 that referred to pressure differential requirements at three different locations yes at it and that the British standard required for more performance requirements for a Class B systems which
01:17:50 requirements for a Class B systems which we just looked at that's correct and you also say since it was based on kind of depressurization principles it there were ten separate additional requirements which you've looked for and you know bound no I haven't only one you
01:18:03 you know bound no I haven't only one you think may have been met yes that's correct and is it right that your fundamental concern is that in a depressurization system the flat should be depressurized relative to the stair
01:18:14 be depressurized relative to the stair in the lobby but at groennfell tower the lobby was depressurized relative to the flats and the stair yes and is the concern that this might draw into the lobby both from the flats and also the
01:18:25 lobby both from the flats and also the stair yes and that's your particularly particularly the plat yes and what about if other flat doors open were open onto the lobby
01:18:34 the lobby it's that something that also should have been thought about well because of depressurizing that zone the more doors you open the more the zone is impacted other flat doors which
01:18:47 zone is impacted other flat doors which are not affected by a fire will simply give you a bit of it's not it's not just about airflow or to bed pressure balance
01:18:58 about airflow or to bed pressure balance as well and the fans are connected to pressure sensors it so so everything changes all the time - pressure differential system so it isn't just
01:19:10 differential system so it isn't just that there's good air flow coming through the flat door it's house of pressure balance is then impacted and hot or the resulting flows are near the
01:19:21 hot or the resulting flows are near the stair but just to be K you've not formed any final view on compliance in relation to this and you would like to hear from the design team yes of that phase - so
01:19:32 the design team yes of that phase - so you can understand understand how the system would work yes and how they were complying with the functional requirements yes because as I read us now I don't understand at how at all it
01:19:43 now I don't understand at how at all it could be a class-b system Thank You mr. chairman I think that's a good time for a break because I'm moving on to another subtopic within this but I think we're
01:19:54 subtopic within this but I think we're still in good shape to finish well we're gonna either have a slightly shorter break or a slightly long break I would suggest that we have a slightly longer break and then - then finish oh well I'll have to have
01:20:06 - then finish oh well I'll have to have another break no no I don't think we need another one after that well I'll have to mop up any questions so we'll let them you can't I think we'll have a slightly longer break otherwise it would
01:20:17 slightly longer break otherwise it would be very short I'm gonna stop now for just over 10 minutes 35
01:20:36 good thank you 25 fast sweet please
01:25:36 you
01:34:08 yes no yeah ready yes thank you could I just add to something yes of course earlier it's good to have a coffee right
01:34:19 earlier it's good to have a coffee right experience so I think I should be clear dr. pan a system based on pressure differentials is being allowed for the S requirement for fire doors is not
01:34:31 requirement for fire doors is not provided so the smoke seals okay I'm the second thing I should have said is the fans are are connected to a pressure
01:34:46 fans are are connected to a pressure sensor which is monitoring the pressure difference between the stair and the lobby all the time and so the fans you could say they're changing you asked about what happens if X Y doors start to
01:34:57 about what happens if X Y doors start to open so all the time it's monitoring that pressure difference so it's not a steady-state system it's much more sophisticated than I gave it critical potentially yes it's much more complex
01:35:10 potentially yes it's much more complex so anyway
01:35:10 so anyway yes Telstra springe thank you if I wanted me to the topic of smoke campus and now and you because you've raised some concerns about those in your report
01:35:22 some concerns about those in your report can we just look at a picture of what we're talking about I think there's a good one in your presentation of the 18th of June if we go to page 176 of that that's BL a four zeroes five four
01:35:36 that that's BL a four zeroes five four eight one app eight one seven six
01:35:44 now have I got this right so say these you've got the most rotating blades here can we see these are the can we see the dampers on you yes I can I just I think
01:35:57 dampers on you yes I can I just I think they're from the the new floors but the yes but there's doubt what a damper is yeah he's displayed to us so it's it's a
01:36:09 yeah he's displayed to us so it's it's a metal mechanical device that can be controlled into the shop position on the right yep so we've got the open on the left and the shut on the right yes mints have been provide a seal so that the
01:36:22 have been provide a seal so that the smoke going behind it doesn't leak through is that where a seal is required yeah and so yes because in other buildings the seal may not be required
01:36:33 buildings the seal may not be required we see yeah and you've explained in detail in your report that because the smoke extract system was a powered pressure differential system that these dampers were required to meet certain
01:36:44 dampers were required to meet certain enhanced standards for smoke controlled dampers yes to ensure that they achieved a 60 minute rating for integrity and smoke leakage yes because they're in a lobby in a residential builder yes yes
01:36:59 lobby in a residential builder yes yes and you've explained in your report that the smoke dampers in the north and south shafts were series 54 smoke dampers manufactured by a company called Gilbert's and supplied to ride and
01:37:10 Gilbert's and supplied to ride and subcontractor PSB is that right but now you've identified some evidence in your most recent work which would suggest that these dampers weren't
01:37:21 suggest that these dampers weren't tested to the relevant enhanced standards for smoke control dampers and indeed it would appear that they weren't properly tested to certain lower standards is that correct yes so they've
01:37:33 standards is that correct yes so they've actually failed the smoke leakage test they were not tested in the proper as a position in the fire time protest is it right that
01:37:46 the fire time protest is it right that in order to satisfy the requirements of that lower standard they had to be tested from the open position and if they take a certain amount of time or in excess of two minutes to close the test
01:37:57 excess of two minutes to close the test is failed that's correct they it has to show it can do its opening and closing action in the test and was the ability of a damper to close effectively on all floors away from the fire on being
01:38:10 floors away from the fire on being subjected to heat and smoke fundamentals to the performance of the smoke control system at a grand for tower it was fundamental to the function of the builders dots acting as an adequate
01:38:24 builders dots acting as an adequate compartment so these are the the shafts the builders ducts that have been used at the shafts yes to do the north shaft yeah extract yes the smoke away from the
01:38:35 yeah extract yes the smoke away from the lobby yes these are these what these are what protects yeah they are beyond all the well on all floor on all floors exactly on the fire floor where it's working it opened it opens and that's
01:38:47 working it opened it opens and that's absolutely fine the products of combustion can enter but but then those products have to be kept within that protected riser and think they cannot
01:38:59 protected riser and think they cannot exit on any floor yeah and is it right that you have picked up that there is some evidence from the be SRS which would suggest that smoke was entering the lobbies via these kind of smoke
01:39:12 the lobbies via these kind of smoke vents
01:39:12 vents yeah very long particular floor is there are some evidence on some floors that smoke was observed to leak from the
01:39:24 smoke was observed to leak from the location of the builders ducts and we had we had all real evidence from Farhad neder in particular in relation to that extent yes and do you think that that evidence is potentially important in the
01:39:35 evidence is potentially important in the context of the problems that you've identified with the dampers yes yes I do
01:39:44 and could this potentially indicate a failure to comply with complementation rules for protected shouts yes it could
01:39:56 do you think there are any other potential explanations that you're aware of at this stage for what mr. Neda says he witnessed on his floor could it have been anything to do for example with the
01:40:09 been anything to do for example with the firefighters operating the HMI panel I mean is that is that possible so I this is a recent piece of evidence for me and
01:40:21 is a recent piece of evidence for me and I've set out in appendix J all the things I now want to look at I don't have any evidence remember that the firefighter is actively opened or shot
01:40:36 firefighter is actively opened or shot dampers on any floor now professor tarik torero and his evidence was asked about the potential smoke leakage onto the lobbies through these dampers and and he
01:40:50 lobbies through these dampers and and he said this he said well the evidence is that the system is performing poorly because it's bringing smoke into the lobbies now that could have been because of the non-compliances but it could also have been because the system was designed to basically deal with one
01:41:01 designed to basically deal with one floor and I think what he was implying is that if you've got a fire and multi-story fire across the building
01:41:12 multi-story fire across the building that potentially that system is dealing with a quantity of smoke that it wouldn't have otherwise dealt with the question for you is would you have expected the system to key in terms of
01:41:24 expected the system to key in terms of leakage do those dampers to have coped with those smoke levels ok so just just break that down a bit so so the system
01:41:37 break that down a bit so so the system isn't dealing with the fire on multiple floors in the sense it's not it's not meant to be open on multiple floors okay so at the moment therefore I don't
01:41:51 okay so at the moment therefore I don't understand professor professor Toreros issues abate smoke quantities right the system as a protected riser is required
01:42:03 system as a protected riser is required to provide compartment ation for yes for a certain period in every lovely and that's sixty minutes yes it is yeah yeah so there are other pressure imbalances
01:42:21 so there are other pressure imbalances that might cause flowing of smoke at level 23 particularly but as I've said there's all sorts of different things I must consider before I offer up any kind
01:42:34 must consider before I offer up any kind of opinion on why the smoke leaked on certain floors I'm I am clear in my own mind about the damper performance but
01:42:45 mind about the damper performance but there are other things I must consider too mm-hm and there's potentially some other written evidence for example Daniel Griffin in in a witness statement this read out to the inquiry refers to
01:42:56 this read out to the inquiry refers to smoke spread via the vents into the sixth floor lobby yes is that something that you will want and I have been thinking about yes I am can you can't considering that so in terms of those
01:43:07 considering that so in terms of those smoke shafts on the north and the south side you've also highlighted some potential issues around the those shafts is it right that so they were retained
01:43:19 is it right that so they were retained in the refurbishment they were originally billed as work shafts serving the north and south sides of the lobbies is that right that's correct and you've examined them can we look at figure J 16
01:43:31 examined them can we look at figure J 16 of your report the LA s50 is 31 at page 56 yes and I think what we see I just want to look at a number of these
01:43:42 want to look at a number of these figures is yeah
01:43:46 you have concluded that neither shaft was rendered nor was it metal lined let's just stick with rendering yeah does that mean kind of cemented to make
01:43:57 does that mean kind of cemented to make it a smooth surface yes so so when when someone like me wants to rely on the builders work shaft for this for a smoke control system both the British standard
01:44:11 control system both the British standard and actually the smoke Control Association guidance makes clear a that's perfectly appropriate but B there are certain checks you have to do so it's about making it as smooth as possible and also checking if it leaks
01:44:23 possible and also checking if it leaks just by nature of its current condition yep and if this was leaking this shaft what are the potential candidates in terms of where it leaks to okay well I
01:44:35 terms of where it leaks to okay well I would need to show you on a plan but the the walls here that we're looking out for the builder's duct are in the flat there in fact yes they are near near well it depends which drop but they're
01:44:47 well it depends which drop but they're near the front door yeah and you've noted that it wasn't metal lined either is that something you sometimes see you know in a smoke shaft like this that you will metal line the whole thing so if
01:44:59 will metal line the whole thing so if you can't you know apply a smooth finish it might be that a designer would choose to provide a lining instead yeah but the budget has to be contemplated as the point I'm making in terms of they're
01:45:13 preventing so much friction when the fan switch on okay it's trying to get the smoke up easily and you've drawn attention in this particular photograph oops to mortar joints between blocks
01:45:24 oops to mortar joints between blocks which you say visible and then yeah you've got same diagonal line pattern as exhibited on outside of yes I just hope so just I was trying to say that it's not been covered with something else in
01:45:36 not been covered with something else in part I can see and can we just I mean mortar joints is a good thing in the sense that that means it is sealed right yep and can we just look at a couple of other photographs that after
01:45:47 couple of other photographs that after this in j17
01:45:52 which is on the next page yeah so again just just trying to say that I can see an external surface rather than a surface that's been covered with
01:46:03 surface that's been covered with something else yeah so this to you is this concerning that you're seeing it in this condition on the inside and I would like to
01:46:15 on the inside and I would like to understand how the the lining of the builders work duct and it's a leakage was considered by the design team and factored in to the final design
01:46:26 factored in to the final design condition they provided because you say at the moment you've not seen currently on what you've had any evidence that it was checked or tested during the refurbishment that's correct based on
01:46:37 refurbishment that's correct based on the papers given to me let's just finish off if we look at Jay 18 and then Jay 19 yeah yeah I'm it's the same that's the same is the same thing again you're just
01:46:49 same is the same thing again you're just trying to show what's there so people can have that transparency and those builders works ducts should have had a 1 hour fire resistance I think you say the
01:47:03 hour fire resistance I think you say the knobby it well as an extension of the lobby it should be 2 hours but the dampers are 1 hour for the floor to flow separation
01:47:21 in terms of the contribution of these kind of issues I with the dampers and the shafts let's just think about them and the contribution they potentially might have played to smoke spread in the
01:47:34 might have played to smoke spread in the building given the scale of the fire and the fact that we know that numerous flat front doors did not have functioning door closes or the doors were left open isn't the most likely source of smoke in
01:47:46 isn't the most likely source of smoke in the lobbies to be due to the failure of the the doors as people escaped into the lobbies rather than these kind of complementation failings so I have to
01:48:00 complementation failings so I have to say what I said this morning so it depends which lovely it is where there may have been Arby's where the doors were not left open or opening very frequently and smoke spread by other
01:48:13 frequently and smoke spread by other means is relevant commissioning now you have looked at the available
01:48:24 have looked at the available commissioning documentation that you've seen to date for the system yes and your view is I think that you say that the
01:48:36 view is I think that you say that the building regulation requires the works to have been carried out such that they can adequately perform the functions for which they're designed does that mean in your your view that such systems need to
01:48:47 your your view that such systems need to be properly commissioned so as to demonstrate the adequate performance yeah to comply with regulation 7 and on the basis of the commissioning documents you've seen to date is it right that you
01:48:58 you've seen to date is it right that you have concerns about the commissioning process that was followed yes I have now the detail in your is in your report but in summary is it right that you've looked at relevant guidance for commissioning including the smoke
01:49:09 commissioning including the smoke association smoke Control Association guidance and you can't see evidence that all the relevant checks were carried out when commissioning the system yet that's correct now in terms of the evidence of
01:49:24 correct now in terms of the evidence of its operation both before and on the night and whether the system is operating properly you have said in your latest report that you want to revisit this in Phase two given the wealth of evidence that you've
01:49:36 given the wealth of evidence that you've heard from firefighters and BS ARS about the operation on the night that's correct
01:49:42 correct I'm therefore not going to put any points in in detail about this except to just look at a few points on the extent of what you have examined you say that
01:49:54 of what you have examined you say that you know that the system worked in some way on the fourth floor because the building management system triggered an alert to Tunstall yes that's the remote
01:50:05 alert to Tunstall yes that's the remote monitoring platform at zerozero 54 is that right that's correct so I know I we know that happened and I assume it was
01:50:17 know that happened and I assume it was because of smoke at level four because of the time that that signal was sent but I don't yes I don't have any information remember about how that
01:50:28 information remember about how that whole remote monitoring system actually works but we know a signal was received at a certain time and there is no reason to think there was smoke anywhere else
01:50:41 to think there was smoke anywhere else at that stage of event so before 1:00 o'clock and that would be and smoke relevant to the fire in flat 16 at that point correct correct
01:50:52 now you've referred to some resident evidence present armed' relating to smoke coming from the level floor lobby into the stairs and you say you're
01:51:06 into the stairs and you say you're concerned that this might indicate that this system was not functioning as intended do you think it's going to be necessary to look at all of the evidence including the firefighter evidence we've now heard some of which might suggest
01:51:18 now heard some of which might suggest that the lobby was less congested with smoke in the early stages yes that's correct so there is evidence of limited smoke in the level 4 Lobby and then things changing and this issue
01:51:31 and then things changing and this issue of doors being a enclosed on where is very important so all the very detailed breakdown of early firefighting activity I'd like to compare that then with the different
01:51:43 compare that then with the different evidence about the conditions that smoke at level four and in in the early stages when that was a single fire condition and if the system operated as intended
01:51:55 and if the system operated as intended yep
01:51:56 yep and you say in your report so you've been able to look at the programming for the smoke control system and you say that it does appear to have been correctly programmed to respond
01:52:08 correctly programmed to respond appropriately to the detection of smoke on level four is that correct that's correct but you're unable to say on the night precisely which pieces of equipment activated as the system
01:52:20 equipment activated as the system activation log in the HMI panel was overwritten by events after the 14th of June before it was seized that's correct and and therefore it's no longer
01:52:32 and and therefore it's no longer available to you so we don't have the data from the night is that the point yes so very unfortunately we don't know the order of devices triggered and the the software being correct is one
01:52:44 the software being correct is one positive thing but then it means what its control and needs to physically be able to perform also so there too when you're checking a system in terms of
01:52:56 you're checking a system in terms of handing over a building does the software trigger our I devices at the right time and can they physically react to the programmer the fact that that data is not available from the night is
01:53:08 data is not available from the night is that a significant gap in your knowledge in terms of how the system operated I think it's very unfortunate and do you think that's going to hamper a conclusion about whether the system did
01:53:19 conclusion about whether the system did operate properly what do you think there are other things you can look at so it would have been the most the most useful piece of data but instead and I've
01:53:33 piece of data but instead and I've listed everything out of the back of appendix J there's all sorts of other data now
01:53:39 data now I need to consider yeah noise physical observations up at the roof from the helicopter footage or there's all pieces
01:53:50 helicopter footage or there's all pieces of data know that I need to piece together to understand if if smoke indeed entered the shafts and left the
01:54:01 indeed entered the shafts and left the shafts at the roof and remember down at level two above the door and you've also analyzed at this stage they're available
01:54:12 analyzed at this stage they're available firefighter evidence as to their attempts to operate the system yes I have and you've also reviewed the instructions available to the firefighters in the lobby next to the HMI panel yes I have to look at their
01:54:25 HMI panel yes I have to look at their clarity yes and we should bear a minor thing is this right that so the system operates in automatic mode whenever it's detected on the fire floor and it should operate
01:54:36 the fire floor and it should operate automatically yes but there was a function and there were various instructions given about how the firefighters could override their and select a different floor that's correct or the smoke control system to operate
01:54:47 or the smoke control system to operate on if they wanted for example to to operate it on floor 11 as a place to floor fall yes so they're there so the system provides two ways to do that you
01:54:58 system provides two ways to do that you switch the panel to on and there's a touch screen that allows you to pick a floor to change the function to change
01:55:09 floor to change the function to change the floor of operation or you switch to on and you go to the floor and use the yellow key switch in the lobby the
01:55:20 yellow key switch in the lobby the instructions actually only offer going to the floor with the yellow key switch as they were printed out underneath the panel on the night and I don't know why that is I just
01:55:35 and I don't know why that is I just wanted to ask you about a few things to do with these instructions you've said a new report that the instructions to access the damper status yes are clear so that's to look at what was happening
01:55:46 so that's to look at what was happening for each individual damper on each vigil floor was that correct yes if it provides it provides that function yes but you say that the damper status
01:55:59 but you say that the damper status indicators might not be providing accurate information because what you've identified is that the switches from the dampers may not have been connected to the system so that what you're seeing on the screen may not be telling you accurate
01:56:10 may not be telling you accurate information about the data exactly you can get this kind of return signal so the damper tells the controller I am open I am shot and that was disconnected in the tower can we just go to that
01:56:21 in the tower can we just go to that that's BL as50 is 31 page one for one
01:56:33 j9 okay J nine point four point ten so I think this is where you can explain yes
01:56:45 think this is where you can explain yes point four lines down in Grove what are these switches were not connected to the system
01:56:50 system yeah and you just explained the basis on which you've completed that it wasn't they weren't connected to the system how do you know that because the wires are bundled and tied together right
01:57:08 and yes and you've just made this point you also conclude that the instructions state that only one floor can be controlled at once but do not state that
01:57:20 controlled at once but do not state that the user must turn off the key at the floor of operation before another key switch could be operated to change the floor that's correct so if someone's put their key in in a little yellow box yes in floor 11 and they want to change it
01:57:32 in floor 11 and they want to change it to floor 12 the instructions don't tell them they've got to take the key out yeah yeah exactly have to finish your operation there and then go go to another floor yep and you've also pointed out that the restart system
01:57:44 pointed out that the restart system option would restart the system on the floor of activation regardless of whether a key switch had been and operated is that right yes do you think these instructions were as clear as they
01:57:56 these instructions were as clear as they should have been to guide firefighters no to nanites and is it right that at phase two in terms of the work you're going to do you're going to review the operation by the firefighters of the
01:58:08 operation by the firefighters of the system on the night to try and look at what they might have done yes and you say that it was found in the the key to
01:58:20 say that it was found in the the key to the HMI panel on the ground floor was found in the on position rather than in the auto position yeah that's correct London Fire Brigade provided a photo of the key in the armed position but you
01:58:32 the key in the armed position but you say it's unclear how or precisely when that happened and there's no evidence that anyone did that intentionally is that right or shut down the system yeah so I I don't know how that happened
01:58:43 so I I don't know how that happened and I don't know if either the touchscreen or the yellow key switches were then also used as they they could have been when the main key was in the
01:58:54 have been when the main key was in the arm position yes and do you intend to review the CCTV footage further in terms of days I I will reviewed further and
01:59:06 of days I I will reviewed further and yes watch monitor dodging appears to have used a key to activate the yellow key panel in the lobbie at ground floor we have seen pictures of that based on your review of
01:59:19 pictures of that based on your review of the software and how the system was supposed to operate what would be the effect of that of putting the key into the ground floor well it depends what the condition that the main HMI panel was and I don't know if it was it in
01:59:30 was and I don't know if it was it in honor or not when he did that if it was in on would the effect of him putting his key into the yellow key switch mean that it was diverted to operate on the
01:59:41 that it was diverted to operate on the ground floor theoretically yes it should have opened it it should have opened the vents our ground floor just generally in relation to that override facility in
01:59:53 relation to that override facility in the smoke control system and are you aware of the lfb policy guidance in GRA 3.2 that the incident commander must not make any changes to a high-rise buildings ventilation or fire safety
02:00:05 buildings ventilation or fire safety system without first taking appropriate vais from either the responsible person or appropriately trained Fire and Rescue Authority personnel yes I'm aware of are
02:00:16 Authority personnel yes I'm aware of are you aware of any attempt by anyone during the course of the fire to seek advice or assistance from the responsible person as to the way in which that smoke ventilation system was supposed to operate that's not something
02:00:28 supposed to operate that's not something I've looked at yet but I will be looking at those types of activities when it comes to Juicy's regarding the regulatory reform fire safety order
02:00:39 regulatory reform fire safety order which I haven't done yet yep for responsible persons now in relation to the performance of the lift doors yes and your site inspection and
02:00:51 doors yes and your site inspection and report make no observations with regard to the performance and conditions of the lift doors despite the fact you've noted that the doors were seemingly not specified as fire rated do you think
02:01:02 specified as fire rated do you think that in order to fully consider possible smoke contamination routes it's going to be important to have regard to the lift doors yes I would like to have had the
02:01:14 doors yes I would like to have had the opportunity to do that and I'm sure the lift expert can do that work
02:01:21 if we leave aside the damper compartment ation issue for a moment and simply assume that the system was compliant compliant but it didn't work on the fire
02:01:33 compliant but it didn't work on the fire floor on the night would you agree that that would have limited effect on the spread of fire and smoke throughout the building
02:01:47 it's rolled its role is to stop smoke entering the staircase during early firefighting so does that mean you
02:01:58 firefighting so does that mean you wouldn't agree with that that you still think we could find a perfect system designed to either extract smoke or limit smoke movement on one floor
02:02:09 limit smoke movement on one floor obviously cannot operate on all floors simultaneously unless such a feature was provided and finally I just wanted to
02:02:22 provided and finally I just wanted to look at your section j11 which lists out all the further investigations that you wish to do as part of your face to work can we go to BL as50 is 31 at page start
02:02:34 can we go to BL as50 is 31 at page start with page 1 5 2 yeah and we don't have to go through all the detail of it but is it right that what you've done in this last section is set out all the different work strands that you would
02:02:46 different work strands that you would like to do to understand better yeah the system and whether it operated correctly on the night and what the consequences were yes exactly so if we just go you've
02:02:58 were yes exactly so if we just go you've got considering when there's any evidence of noise from the fans yes all those questions that poor mr. Rawat had to keep on asking about noise yes fans there potentially important you know
02:03:11 there potentially important you know it's very important and to understand if either
02:03:16 either firefighters or residents could hear hear these noises the problem about fan noise a grand full tire is the system was a combined system yep
02:03:29 was a combined system yep so and if we go over the page yeah so I I won't be able to rely just on a noise but these are all pieces entities all the different pieces yes
02:03:43 the different pieces yes and then you've got um considering when there's any evidence of air movement analyzed the data from the pace of our condition of the smoke control system yes you refer there to lfb officer James
02:03:54 yes you refer there to lfb officer James Flynn taking photograph yes and and I believe it's also provided a witness statement yes which you'll have to look at yeah I'll go through all of that and also I think the thing I'm most
02:04:07 also I think the thing I'm most interested in is where suit was actually deposited yeah that's a really good piece of physical evidence and that's where it's a professor's deck and at the
02:04:19 where it's a professor's deck and at the university of central lancashire who's been appointed as an inquiry expert she's done an investigation of sip deposits yes and she's done a short summary but you want to look in more detail I do because you know is there sucked all the
02:04:32 because you know is there sucked all the way up to the roof is there so - all the way down to level 2 is there sort on the fan ID level 2 etc etc and all of those things will allow us to understand if
02:04:43 things will allow us to understand if there ever was smoke in the system and do you agree that it's going to be necessary to establish an accurate timeline in relation to internal and external smoke spread before you can
02:04:56 external smoke spread before you can reach any more definitive conclusions about whether the system operated as intended I think I think that study is very important for a multitude of reasons I mentioned the lifts getting filled with smoke earlier and all
02:05:08 filled with smoke earlier and all of other things yes thank you mr. chairman days are all of my questions right very good chance to consider your homework
02:05:20 homework exactly so if we can just have a break move for ten minutes yes well nine minutes that's good focus forum and if there are any further questions
02:05:31 questions this is really well I've usually convenient because other people may want to talk alright five possible please
02:10:44 you
02:13:34 I haven't asked her strange weather she's got any more questions I suspect she has anyone anyone she's good and about the roof and it's a question I put
02:13:48 about the roof and it's a question I put to Professor torero and I should have put it to you as well do you think on the night that the roof might have provided a refuge for occupants of the tower had it had it
02:14:01 occupants of the tower had it had it been able to be accessed when I was in the roof I observed areas that were not impacted by fire and smoke so does that
02:14:12 impacted by fire and smoke so does that mean you think it might have been able to be a refuge well it's a hypothetical because it was inaccessible it's it is
02:14:26 because it was inaccessible it's it is something that I do consider as such in my own work but it was locked on inaccessible as I understand it the
02:14:40 inaccessible as I understand it the question asked you to assume that it I know yeah I find it I just sorry I just have that kind of brain it's hard for me to do that so all I can tell you is I
02:14:51 to do that so all I can tell you is I observed myself there were areas not impacted by fire and smoke and that's actually quite upset and when you see that but I don't know how it could have
02:15:04 that but I don't know how it could have been actually used I don't know the answer I don't know how to answer that question at the moment do you think the proximity to the crown may have been an issue in terms of accessing of you because I don't you come up yeah when
02:15:16 because I don't you come up yeah when you're out onto a lower parapet that's correct
02:15:18 correct around the outside right adjacent to the crown that's correct and then if you want to access the inner you have to go really you have to go up but yes Gary ladder so I'm happy to
02:15:29 but yes Gary ladder so I'm happy to explain the access points and the location of the hazard when I'm doing that part of my work and I will be much clearer than yep and dr. Lane those are all the
02:15:43 yep and dr. Lane those are all the questions that we have for you and I would just like to thank you and your team and all of our experts have worked incredibly hard within the timescales but that really does particularly apply
02:15:55 but that really does particularly apply to you in your team I think only way of the inquiry team know quite how hard you have all worked to produce the detailed report that you have and I just want to
02:16:06 report that you have and I just want to give you our thanks because we know an awful lot of blood sweat and tears has gone into it and I just I just do want to say thank you to my own team they have worked tirelessly for a very long
02:16:19 have worked tirelessly for a very long period of time so but we were very happy to do so
02:16:24 to do so well we are very grateful to you because one can see how much time and effort has gone into this work and you were giving you're giving us your opinion I mean it's a very substantial report thank you
02:16:36 it's a very substantial report thank you very much and we are very grateful to you for putting your expertise at our disposal thank you very very much indeed yeah all right well that's cool so you can go in the air if you liked it thank you very much
02:17:03 right Grange that's perhaps it for the day which is I think we have fun dr. Kleber tomorrow yes more expert evidence tomorrow in the form of dr.
02:17:14 evidence tomorrow in the form of dr. Glover with mr. Kinney er yes well thank you very much indeed well 10 10 o'clock tomorrow then please thank you