Evidence from London Fire Brigade officer regarding fire survival guidance (FSG) procedures on the night of the Grenfell fire, including CSS systems, communication methods, and decision-making around the stay-put policy change.
00:00:03 Thank You mr. Merrick back soon please yes mr. Chen thank you very much
00:00:29 all right mr. Merrick really carry on yep Thank You mr. Lai can I go back to the CSS system and just ask you one or two questions about functionality can I
00:00:41 two questions about functionality can I ask you to be showing the policy 790 which is in tab 5 of the policies bundle FSG and turn internally in there to page
00:00:54 FSG and turn internally in there to page 4 and at paragraph 7 point 5 is we can just have that highlighted I'll read it it says the command support system CSS has a messages screen that
00:01:06 system CSS has a messages screen that records messages sent to and from the incident ground once a Cu has been mobilized messages sent by filing radio relating to FS g calls are recorded here there is also a conferencing facility on
00:01:17 there is also a conferencing facility on CSS which is available for remote users control has scss access and sensitive information relating to specific calls can be communicated by this method now
00:01:29 can be communicated by this method now just asking about that first of all looking at what the policy requires or expects of a CSS honestly you did that functionality that we see their expression the policy exists in Cu 8 on
00:01:42 expression the policy exists in Cu 8 on the night yes we did did you find anything in your operation of the CSS system that would indicate that there was a problem with with its functionality at all like I said earlier I started at the computers are I most
00:01:55 I started at the computers are I most probably started at the CSS but I never actually used them right okay now just looking at the functionality that the policy indicates should be available and you say was available it looks as if at the screen records messages going both
00:02:07 the screen records messages going both ways both from control to the incident ground and from the Instagram to control yeah did it do that on the night you think like I said I didn't refer to the computers on the night or the CSS you
00:02:18 computers on the night or the CSS you didn't use it you didn't use it at all is that right I don't think I did I think to the best of my memory I was at start to the generator I was starting the computers turn the lights on
00:02:31 the computers turn the lights on everything else getting ready when the when I could hear control tryna contact just in the next second sentence of that paragraph on the screen there it says
00:02:43 paragraph on the screen there it says messages sent by Firelink radio relating to our first G calls are recorded here what is fine link radio I think he's referring to the main scheme radio and again this is what I was referring to
00:02:55 again this is what I was referring to earlier when I was saying messages between myself and control between them the machine that I'm on charleen for mate and control are all recorded so we can refer back to them
00:03:07 recorded so we can refer back to them later right would that mean that if you were communicating with the control room of our FSG calls by mobile by the brigade mobile then that those messages wouldn't be captured by the CSS I don't
00:03:19 wouldn't be captured by the CSS I don't think they would be now no so why would it be was it better for you to communicate Bart with the control room by Brigade mobile rather than through
00:03:30 by Brigade mobile rather than through the radio it wasn't a decision that I took it was it was control who contacted me by mobile phone from my point of view it was certainly a method of passing
00:03:41 it was certainly a method of passing that information that was easier it's easy to pass information by mobile phone that it is by mainstream radio okay and if and I know it's an if but if the CSS
00:03:54 if and I know it's an if but if the CSS system had been used to communicate FSG information from control room to see you ate with that information have being visible or accessible for example by the
00:04:05 visible or accessible for example by the incident commander by remote use the incident commander being remote from the command unit yes no the only way that
00:04:17 command unit yes no the only way that that could happen is we could print the messages off and take them out to him right
00:04:22 right it takes some moments for that for those messages to be recorded onto the CSS so it doesn't happen instantaneously we have to wait a few moments he had come
00:04:33 have to wait a few moments he had come true and then we could print it off I spot by which time in all honesty the method we were using would have been a lot quicker I understand thinking but just in terms said I can just really understand us
00:04:44 said I can just really understand us this functionality there's it says there's a conferencing facility on CSS available to remote users Susanna voice conferencing facility or is it a visual
00:04:55 conferencing facility or is it a visual conferencing facility where you can see the messages online on the system envision it to be honest it's a system that's not used very often at all to the
00:05:08 that's not used very often at all to the extent that I have never used that I'm aware that we've got it but again the system that we had passing the information over the mobile phone was the easiest way of passing name to make okay I just I'm sorry to grind on with
00:05:21 okay I just I'm sorry to grind on with this it says then control has CSS access and the sensitive information relating to specific calls can be communicated by this method what does that mean does that mean control can access the CSS and
00:05:33 that mean control can access the CSS and then type in sensitive information about specific calls so that they're on the screen in the sea you yes names for an example something that wouldn't be
00:05:45 example something that wouldn't be passed via main scheme radio in case somebody else intercepts it and as may have been referred to earlier all frontline appliances have speakers on the back of their machine so it makes
00:05:57 the back of their machine so it makes sense that you don't for obvious reasons you wouldn't want names being transmitting about certain forwards that is one way of passing the information that the mobile phone is another way of
00:06:08 that the mobile phone is another way of passing that information as well I see and another question you explained and we'll look a little bit more the moment about the move from CUA to c7 I should
00:06:21 about the move from CUA to c7 I should have asked you earlier why did you need to move from CUA to c7 just because that had been labeled as the designated FSG
00:06:32 had been labeled as the designated FSG see you but given that it arrived on the fire ground half an hour later and given that you were already operating far survivable guidance calls from within cu8 what do you know why it was thought
00:06:44 cu8 what do you know why it was thought it was on
00:06:45 it was on to change anyway it wasn't a decision that I made do you know his decision it was I believe group manager Welsh was the IC at that point but no I I'm pretty
00:06:59 the IC at that point but no I I'm pretty sure it was his decision for us to move across right why he made that decision it wasn't anything completely out of the ordinary sometimes the the first
00:07:10 ordinary sometimes the the first attending see you can be designated FSG but not necessarily it all depends on what the IC once done at any given time so it may be that something else was
00:07:22 so it may be that something else was happening on cu8 that made him want to keep it as the ICP right and yet so to CUA it would stay as ICP but you don't
00:07:35 CUA it would stay as ICP but you don't know what that was that would MIT that would not bad no I'd been told to go across to see you seven I didn't question it I didn't see any reason to question it okay did you did you hear
00:07:49 question it okay did you did you hear group manager Welch make that decision I was told at some point I I can't remember who told me that can or when but I know that I was told at some point
00:08:00 but I know that I was told at some point to move across the c7 right now you told us this morning just on a slightly different topic that all the fire
00:08:11 different topic that all the fire survival guidance information that you wrote down while you were in cu8 you wrote on pieces of paper you then communicated by by radio to mark Kent
00:08:24 communicated by by radio to mark Kent field
00:08:24 field yes you can field
00:08:29 he in his contemporaneous notes and I don't need to to take you to them but I'll tell you what he says he says if he helped set up the FSG with watch manager
00:08:43 helped set up the FSG with watch manager Sadler from hotel 22 over the bonnet of a car and located one watch manager and one firefighter to assist him do you
00:08:54 one firefighter to assist him do you remember him doing that now that makes sense but I don't know of if he did that or how he went about that was watch manager Kent field the only person on
00:09:08 manager Kent field the only person on the fire ground that you spoke to about the first survival guidance call messages that you were processing within cu8 I believe it was yeah you don't remember speaking to watch manager
00:09:19 remember speaking to watch manager Sadler I don't recall speaking to anybody else now can I ask you to look at your own contemporaneous notes I'd
00:09:34 at your own contemporaneous notes I'd ask you to go to page two
00:09:41 [Music] and you say there that it's the third paragraph second main paragraph dan
00:09:52 paragraph second main paragraph dan group manager Goodell and station manager Egan that established comms with the bridgehead to pass FSG information and that's something you put in your statement we looked at her already
00:10:03 statement we looked at her already Harrison was manager Harrison drew a plan of Grenfell tower showing each flat so we could record FSG information and a practical easy-to-read way we
00:10:14 practical easy-to-read way we established a key showing numbers of adults children and level of priority now I just want to see if I can identify what that looked like can I ask first of all that you be
00:10:25 can I ask first of all that you be shamed and it's tab 42 of the documents bundle met triple zero one five nine three three
00:10:47 is that that the plan of the tower that you're referring to yes can you explain the procedure that you followed and filling it in I mean first of all who
00:10:58 filling it in I mean first of all who held the pen when creating it who actually drew the lines and the number I believe it was watch manager Harrison right and it may be much money to pecker
00:11:09 right and it may be much money to pecker but I believe is what manager Harrison okay and whose idea was that it was something that none of us had ever done
00:11:21 something that none of us had ever done before we have a pollster casualty information pollster which we use for fire survival guidance incidents to
00:11:34 fire survival guidance incidents to record the information it set out a little bit like the controlling no it's not really set out like the control information part sorry it's set in a rough way it's set out a bit like this
00:11:46 rough way it's set out a bit like this where you would recall you would record flat numbers floor level things like that it's at the end of the FSG policy if you want to refer to that however
00:11:59 if you want to refer to that however there's only enough space I think it's the seven different calls on that pad for seven different flats so we there's no point in us using that because we would have needed to use several of them
00:12:10 would have needed to use several of them so we had to come up with another way of doing it I believe it was watch manager Harrison who came with this idea which to be honest was about as clear a way as you could get of recording what was
00:12:23 you could get of recording what was going on in what flat that were at any given time yes
00:12:34 as far as who was filling out the details of the numbers within the flats yes I was doing it whilst I was on the phone we also because we had information
00:12:45 phone we also because we had information before this was created watch managers Harrison and Peckham were filling that out with the information that we already had as well this became a bit of a fluid
00:12:56 had as well this became a bit of a fluid chart so as the information came in to us excuse me as it was changing we changed the numbers on the board okay I got to come to that a little bit of
00:13:07 got to come to that a little bit of detail at the moment just just kind of take a step back and just put this in in its policy context because I'm interested in the evolution of this document that you refer to the casualty
00:13:20 document that you refer to the casualty information poster can I just take you back then to the policy you referred to which is policy 790 fire survival guidance calls tab 5 and we think pick
00:13:33 guidance calls tab 5 and we think pick this up at paragraph 7 point 2 on page 4 of the policy and I think this is what did correct me if I'm wrong mr. and mr.
00:13:45 did correct me if I'm wrong mr. and mr. mayor I think this is what you're referring to see use carry a casualty information poster see appendix 3 to record information on all the separate FSG calls diseases the transfer of
00:13:57 FSG calls diseases the transfer of information between see use it's recommended that is completed intend to reduce the risk of information being raised accidentally is that what you're referring to yes and then the poster itself is open it is at appendix 3 which
00:14:09 itself is open it is at appendix 3 which is on page 9 internally of the policy and if we just go to that is that it yes right and you can see the detail on the
00:14:20 right and you can see the detail on the number of columns and you're right it's 7 so this was the origin of the idea of the grid gridded whiteboard is it yes okay and you just help me while I want
00:14:31 okay and you just help me while I want the policy going back to paragraph 7.2 the policy if you will in page four why why would there be in transfer of information between ciues well there was
00:14:45 information between ciues well there was a transfer of information between see use they moved from one to another would that be normal that we commonly like to say it depends on what the IC requests
00:14:56 say it depends on what the IC requests if it wants to keep us the FS GCU is the first way in attendance or move us across so it is something that happens at FSG incident in a normal incident where you've got FS geez would you
00:15:10 where you've got FS geez would you normally record FSG information on this on this poster yes I see within the C and then what would you do with with that information the the bridgehead would have forward information board afib yeah that has a
00:15:22 information board afib yeah that has a laminated copy of the same poster we can then transfer the information so they can record it in the same way that we've got recorded on a CEO and how would you normally transfer the information from the Cu which is in you've written down
00:15:34 the Cu which is in you've written down in the post of to the bridgehead it could be radios it could be runners it could be registered to be runners and if it were runners what would they be carrying they would be carrying copies
00:15:47 carrying they would be carrying copies of the control information pod that's appendix - is it yes which we which is which is the F of six one seven eight four same policy the appendix to forgive me I don't know the number of there but
00:15:59 me I don't know the number of there but yeah the one before yeah right wonderful little done good okay that's that's helpful so back to the picture forty-two
00:16:14 who held the pen in terms of writing in the information do you remember you've got the information about the flats and the floors and who filled in the information in in the green and
00:16:26 the information in in the green and black ink most of it was me but it wasn't just me hey a lot of the time I'd be on the mobile phone taking the information and writing you down but on
00:16:39 information and writing you down but on there but
00:16:40 there but times if circumstances dictated somebody else would be recording it as well okay who was that so there wasn't one designated person who stood at the board with a pen recording everything okay
00:16:51 with a pen recording everything okay just in terms of then the hiss we've got the origins the documentary origins of this but it's in terms of the history of this whiteboard we start off with it in blank and then who started filling it in
00:17:05 blank and then who started filling it in at the very beginning all I can tell you is as a team we were all filling it in right and at the very beginning were you
00:17:16 right and at the very beginning were you filling it in from information that you take it with you from cu8 yes and the information that was then coming in right so we did the information that we already had we put on there as well as
00:17:27 already had we put on there as well as the new information that we were getting in once we were on cu7 yeah yeah I see and the information that
00:17:38 yeah yeah I see and the information that was coming in to see you seven how was that coming in what was the method with which information was coming in from control it was the same news on the mobile phone to me right were you the
00:17:50 mobile phone to me right were you the only person on cu7 once it had started up and running receiving messages from from control I don't remember giving the phone to anybody else at any other time as far as I can remember I had to phone
00:18:01 as far as I can remember I had to phone the whole time right do you remember where the cu7 CSS system was working yes I think it was did you see it working yes I think I did did dc-7 system crash
00:18:17 yes I think I did did dc-7 system crash at any time not that I can remember but it's not uncommon for it to crash isn't it no right what what happens when it crashes try
00:18:29 what what happens when it crashes try rebooting it and if that doesn't work then we'll either carry on without it or we would use another command unit with
00:18:41 we would use another command unit with this chair from my opinion we'd established a very good way of collecting the information I'm sure the CSS was used for some reasons but as far
00:18:56 CSS was used for some reasons but as far as collecting the information and then passing it on I don't think we were using the CSS a great deal for that part
00:19:07 using the CSS a great deal for that part of our role right and to the best of your recollection were any FSG metal is coming from commercial over the radio RT I don't remember any FSG information
00:19:19 I don't remember any FSG information coming from the mainstream radio from control once we were on cu7 right now just turning on a tab to tap 43 and
00:19:30 just turning on a tab to tap 43 and looking at a different picture of the grid as his M et triple 0 1 5 9 2 4 we could see the full key do you know do
00:19:42 could see the full key do you know do you remember who invented the the key in the color coding I certainly came up with a few of them but again it was I
00:19:53 with a few of them but again it was I think to be honest I probably came up with most of those but if for the people realize it was something needed at it then they would add it right and we can see that some numbers next to some flats
00:20:07 see that some numbers next to some flats are in green and that looks like it corresponds with adults is that is that right yes and some numbers no sir some flats are in black does that correspond with kids yes okay and then there's a
00:20:20 with kids yes okay and then there's a third element of 19 which is an at the red asterisk ba have gone there but we don't see any asterisks on the grid
00:20:31 don't see any asterisks on the grid itself
00:20:33 itself can you explain I think that's because at that time as we were speaking about earlier the two-way line of communications and having updates from the bridgehead as to the actions of the
00:20:44 the bridgehead as to the actions of the crews we were hoping to get that information but as the incident went on we were getting getting that information so I think that's why it hasn't been recorded on the board okay then what do
00:20:59 recorded on the board okay then what do you well can you see there are red ticks here yes the third column fourth column and fifth column from the left can you explain what those and there's one actually in the top left-hand corner in the first column can you explain what
00:21:11 in the first column can you explain what those red ticks are I'm afraid I can mr. eager man he gave evidence thought that
00:21:24 eager man he gave evidence thought that initially thought that those have been flats that had been cleared
00:21:31 what was your it could be a collection about what they've moved it could be but I can't remember for definite I can't
00:21:43 I can't remember for definite I can't even that that would be a guess it may be that it was that but that would be a guess did any of the information that we see on that grid there which is
00:21:54 see on that grid there which is obviously a collection of information as it have gathered dynamically through the night until this the point when this picture was taken but but do did any of that information recorded there
00:22:05 that information recorded there represent reports that you were getting back from the tower as a saleable I wasn't known to I wasn't told about any reports coming back from the tower okay
00:22:18 reports coming back from the tower okay so you can't help me understand whether any of this information reflects consequences of actions or deployments of ba wearers into the tower now we took
00:22:34 of ba wearers into the tower now we took the information from control we recorded it here we took we recorded it on the controlling nation forms pass the information on to the bridgehead and and we didn't get a
00:22:53 the bridgehead and and we didn't get a great deal if any information back from the bridgehead like I said I don't know of any information coming back from the region right so to the I'm just summarizing where I think we've got to with this to the best of your
00:23:04 with this to the best of your recollection all of that information on that whiteboard there is information you'd receive from brigade control yes okay and can you just help with a little
00:23:17 okay and can you just help with a little bit more you can see that P is an inner ring is priority yes at that stage how was prioritization being carried out
00:23:31 if flats were affected by heavy smoke or fire or
00:23:37 fire or [Music]
00:23:42 yeah I know I think it was just fire and heavy smoke and fire I know it's sorry but I know there were a couple of flats where we were told of people with certain disabilities yes
00:23:55 people with certain disabilities yes so in fact I'm in too old for yes we've written that down there so I think that may be one of the reasons why that was circled as a priority as well and write
00:24:09 circled as a priority as well and write an underneath thank you immediately underneath that you've got the one nine four with one adult but also has a pee in a ring so
00:24:23 adult but also has a pee in a ring so not a child not a disabled person what would that signify just the conditions within the flat okay and do you know whether there was a system of
00:24:34 whether there was a system of prioritizing elderly people or children no no we would we would pass on the information as we would have it and then it would be down whoever was in control
00:24:46 it would be down whoever was in control of crews being committed as to the level of priority and then underneath if you look at the key underneath P in a ring as P in a square which I think reads
00:24:58 as P in a square which I think reads priority line gone dead yeah can you just help me what that signifies yeah that meant the control the member control staff had been speaking to the occupant of that flat and the line had
00:25:09 occupant of that flat and the line had gone dead were they prioritized because the line had gone dead or were they already priority calls for whom the line had gone dead like I said this board was fluid so it changed so the chances are
00:25:21 fluid so it changed so the chances are those flux would have been P with the circle beforehand right and and then it would be increased in the level of priority that information would be
00:25:32 priority that information would be passed on to the bridgehead the line had gone dead right and then just just to run through them the key there's a little blue dot with an A mark next to
00:25:44 little blue dot with an A mark next to it which we can't interpret can you can you help us with with that left of the blue one yeah the dot only looks like an F what's that no it looks like somebody started to
00:25:55 no it looks like somebody started to write something and then decided not to Robert I'd no idea then let you've got two more a green dot left premise and a
00:26:06 two more a green dot left premise and a black cross left flat in relation to left premise is what's the difference between left premise and left flat I
00:26:17 can't remember exactly I can only guess that left premises is having left the building left flat may well mean they've moved on to somebody else's flat right that's I can't remember that for
00:26:31 that's I can't remember that for definite okay that's you're guessing but you don't know yeah in terms of left flat do you know whether that's left flat as a result of a successful rescue or as a result of self evacuation I'm
00:26:45 or as a result of self evacuation I'm pretty sure that was self evacuation right so we would have had an update from control saying these people have left a flat for whatever reason right that was my next question thank you and
00:26:57 in terms of determining priorities were you involved in in determining priorities or was the prioritization of these residents evacuate done by
00:27:10 these residents evacuate done by somebody else now we recorded the information that we got stating the the conditions within the flat the smoke they if there was
00:27:22 the flat the smoke they if there was fire in the flat and we pass that on to the bridgehead right
00:27:32 at the stage this was being written up they a decision had been made by a prioritization because you put P on the board say the question is who was making the decision about whether particular
00:27:43 the decision about whether particular calls should be prioritized yeah in all fairness yes from from that from
00:27:54 in all fairness yes from from that from the information we will get in control these are the conditions within this flat yeah sorry maybe maybe that perhaps haven't made that clear oh now thinking about it out loud yes
00:28:09 oh now thinking about it out loud yes we've got that information from control these are the conditions that's the priority so looking at it from that point of view I do apologize but yes he we were probably then passing on I'm
00:28:22 we were probably then passing on I'm sorry but I'm trying to go back over this in my head my name take your time that's it because this was also being recorded on the control information pad we and certainly what I was doing earlier on when I was writing
00:28:35 was doing earlier on when I was writing the information down I was trying to write down smog levels whatever the conditions were yes so it may be that when a call came through for a flat we
00:28:46 when a call came through for a flat we pass on this is what it is these are the conditions in the flat and every firefighter who knows about FSGS there be Fido fighter within London would know
00:28:57 be Fido fighter within London would know that if it's light smoke it's not a heavy priority if there's heavy smoke in there it's a higher priority higher level of privacy so it would be a common language that we'd both understand yes
00:29:10 language that we'd both understand yes whether we turned around to them and said these are your priorities send people to them first and then these ones after
00:29:21 but in all honesty now I'm afraid I'm not sure okay then I was collecting the information I was writing it down and then he was being passed on I didn't
00:29:33 then he was being passed on I didn't have anything to do with her passing on of the information some somebody in cu7 was recording a prioritization and I'm
00:29:44 was recording a prioritization and I'm just yes is to try to get to the bottom of who yeah who that was if we got a call saying there's heavy smoke logging in this flat it was loved as a priority it's not this priority is above that
00:29:56 it's not this priority is above that priority it's just it's a priority if there's light smoke logging that's not a priority no that's how we were recording
00:30:07 priority no that's how we were recording it understand but the debit sorry to press you nothing but a decision was being taken within cu7 as to whether something was or wasn't a priority and all I'm just trying to get to yes yes who made that prioritization
00:30:19 to yes yes who made that prioritization just yes now whether that was passed on from cu7
00:30:25 from cu7 to the bridgehead these are your priorities and these are the ones or it's just a case of dis flat these are the conditions this flat these are the conditions and so on I'm afraid I don't know okay but who was made who was
00:30:38 know okay but who was made who was saying in cu7 that's a priority or that's not a priority was anyone in C fc7 actually making that decision it may
00:30:49 fc7 actually making that decision it may well have been me I think if I was taking the calls and I'd been told there's heavy smoke logging in that flat I would label that as a priority right okay um can I ask you then to look at another another photograph this is a tab
00:31:01 another another photograph this is a tab 48 of the documents bundle its M et triple zero one five nine three six now it looks and mr. Egan told us this when
00:31:14 it looks and mr. Egan told us this when he gave evidence last week on the same thing it looks as if this was set up next door to the left of the whiteboard which contained the flats grid on it can you can you just explain what what we
00:31:27 you can you just explain what what we see on this white board I didn't have a great deal to do with recording of this information I was primarily dealing with the the other one right
00:31:46 yeah it would appear that we were getting some feedback and that has been recorded on the column on the left feedback from where you know no I don't
00:31:57 feedback from where you know no I don't know okay I mean with this been 12
00:32:09 know okay I mean with this been 12 months ago I'm afraid I'm just looking at that it's not triggering much of a memory and I'm trying to put it together so I it would be speculation to say what
00:32:20 so I it would be speculation to say what that is okay can I then this last month one more question did you remember who was recording information on a whiteboard to them to the left of the one where you were recording in from now I'm afraid now alright and canal see look at another
00:32:32 alright and canal see look at another document which is tab 41 the of the documents bundle which is M et triple zero one five nine three zero
00:32:46 do you know water what that it well do you have you ever seen that before that list or board it looks like a lamination
00:32:58 list or board it looks like a lamination looks like a lamination forward with writing on it yeah I think that may have been what was first used on Charlie for mate to record the information before we
00:33:10 mate to record the information before we moved across to Charlie form seven so essentially that's the same information that has been been put into the grid when we moved across right I see and so
00:33:23 when we moved across right I see and so who wrote that up there do you know well I wrote quite a bit that and I think what to manage your house and watch manager Peckham wrote some of that as
00:33:34 manager Peckham wrote some of that as well right
00:33:42 okay and you know what the red asterisks mean
00:33:58 to the best of my recollection I think that was priority right
00:34:09 now
00:34:15 okay but the reason I ask is because although you could see for flat 204 on floor 23 1 plus and disabled you haven't
00:34:26 floor 23 1 plus and disabled you haven't given that a red asterisk know where as it did get it did get that same flat did get a P in a ring when you got to do the grid on c7 say so what say are you sure
00:34:37 grid on c7 say so what say are you sure that the red asterisk asterisk was priority no I'm not sure that's to the best of my recollection no you did she was it may well be that this is the earliest stages of the incident we
00:34:49 earliest stages of the incident we wouldn't have had a massive amount of resources and we were only showing light smoke on flat 204 whereas we've got the number of other flats yes I see I see
00:35:00 number of other flats yes I see I see with a stray cell where is a disabled person would be a priority not as much as people who were in conditions right
00:35:11 as people who were in conditions right but of heavy smoke or fire okay are you telling me that from your memory or from just trying to work it out in air on the document you see no that's trying to work it out from what I can see okay
00:35:23 see okay not surprisingly my memory is a little bit hazy no no absolutely no that's perfectly understandable can I then ask you to look at tab 44 which is another
00:35:35 you to look at tab 44 which is another photograph is his M et triple zero one five nine two seven first of all do you recognize where this was taken yes this
00:35:49 recognize where this was taken yes this was entirely inform 7cu 7 and do you know what that list is on the right hand side the board that
00:36:01 on the right hand side the board that says grenfell tower on it yeah that was a plaque taken from the building that's the plaque and do you know who who obtained that plaque I think it watch mine as you can field ken field
00:36:15 watch mine as you can field ken field do you have a memory of that I'm quite sure I do right do you know where he got it from inside the tower no did he get it from inside the tire I'm sure I think he did get it from the tower he
00:36:26 he did get it from the tower he arrogance do you know what stage in the incident watch manager Kent field
00:36:37 incident watch manager Kent field obtained that plant no I don't but the reason why it was brought onto C's 7 was to help us with having an understanding that the layout of the building how many floors how many
00:36:48 of the building how many floors how many flats on each floor right in that connection can I just ask you something it's slightly different to do do you
00:37:00 it's slightly different to do do you remember any discussion with anybody about getting hold of the plans for Grenfell tower I didn't have a discussion with anybody forgetting the
00:37:11 discussion with anybody forgetting the plans of the tower do you know whether mr. Kent field was interested in getting flat a flat floor plan as a general rule
00:37:22 flat a flat floor plan as a general rule we certainly would be trying to get that but I don't know of any efforts that what's mine is you can feel made to get it you don't okay he says in his contemporaneous notes that he obtained a
00:37:33 contemporaneous notes that he obtained a flat floor plan and sent this to the FSG cu7 via runner right do you remember getting those I don't remember that but he might that may well have happened let
00:37:44 he might that may well have happened let me see if another document just triggers a memory while we're all the subject of plans can I ask you to be shown
00:37:56 lfb quadruple 0 1 9 6 8 page 49 saving lfb quadruple zero 196 8 on page 49 now
00:38:13 lfb quadruple zero 196 8 on page 49 now here are some plans of grenfell tower
00:38:19 first and second floors 3rd floor walkway and then for typical residential floor which are the TMA plans do these
00:38:32 floor which are the TMA plans do these look well do these look familiar to you they do but I don't know if they're familiar from the night or whether I've seen them before that's my next question all right whether I've seen them since okay so I
00:38:44 whether I've seen them since okay so I do you remember receiving plans like this all these plans on the night I don't remember that okay he's calling the court as I say according to watch manager Kent fields
00:38:56 according to watch manager Kent fields contemporaneous notes he got some plans and sent them to see you seven via runners you don't remember us evening they made they may well have done it's just it wasn't part of the role that I was carrying out through
00:39:13 going back I'm sorry to do this to go back to tab 44 and the plaque that's M et triple zero one five nine two seven
00:39:24 et triple zero one five nine two seven if you can just get that back up on the screen can you tell us how is that used during the night once you've got hold of
00:39:36 during the night once you've got hold of it that helped us create the grid that you saw earlier okay and in terms of the timeline on the
00:39:47 okay and in terms of the timeline on the whiteboard behind it what's that there's many different ways of running incidents and different incident commanders prefer things to be
00:39:59 incident commanders prefer things to be done differently it's not it's not everything done exactly the same way at every incident some incident commanders like to keep the time in that timeline it appears it at some point we started
00:40:12 it appears it at some point we started to create the timeline date if that's zero four zero two then that's well into the incident for whatever reason we decided well timeline person's hanging
00:40:24 decided well timeline person's hanging from sixth seventh eighth ninth floor on west of building yeah we were getting reports of somebody seen in that area I think so we I think we started to create
00:40:37 think so we I think we started to create a timeline again this is the first time I've seen this in 12 months so I'm just trying to job down understand well don't speculate about about it who did tell us what you were tell me what you remember if you can so we recorded it started to
00:40:49 if you can so we recorded it started to record some of the details why we would have stopped
00:40:58 it may be that we stopped recording it because we realized it wasn't the best way to record it as you can see it's a bit cramped or or maybe there were just
00:41:12 bit cramped or or maybe there were just no more reports from that moment from their last recording I'm afraid I don't know which it would be okay kinda czarsky's this it looks though as that this information is detailed
00:41:23 that this information is detailed information about what's happening in or at the building was that information information coming from the 5-pound or being routed to see you seven var control now with people passing by the
00:41:37 control now with people passing by the command unit many of which not being firefighters and even if some were firefighters not all would have known that we were the FS GCU so police for
00:41:48 that we were the FS GCU so police for example would be knock on the door or open the door and come in and say we've just been told at this so we bits of this information whilst it's not relevant to the role that we were carrying out of course we try and record
00:42:00 carrying out of course we try and record it and we pass it on to the IC or whoever needed the information right and again in that connection can I just ask you to look at one or two further documents can I just ask you to be shown
00:42:12 documents can I just ask you to be shown again it's lfb triple zero one nine six eight and I just want to start with page
00:42:24 eight and I just want to start with page 44 of
00:42:32 and just should tell you what these are we are told that these are documents from cu7 I can't help you any more than that and this is at page 44 a control
00:42:46 that and this is at page 44 a control information form with a priority on it flats one two three floor 15 one month three floor fourteen line gone dead and the time is a 3:21 additional
00:42:57 the time is a 3:21 additional information call from that looks like see you can you can you help what that mean that means I wasn't fill in these
00:43:10 mean that means I wasn't fill in these forms out it looks to me like it was the information again I'm having to speculate here I'm afraid because I didn't fill this out nobody either could
00:43:22 didn't fill this out nobody either could be because I've taken a call over the phone or it could be us happened a couple of times people approached us and said I've been speaking to somebody within the tower okay and then if you look at page 45 you can see that this
00:43:36 look at page 45 you can see that this looks like is it this is identical but it looked it looks like one of the carbon copies underneath the top copy or at least a subsequent copy because it's
00:43:47 at least a subsequent copy because it's got the same information in slightly fainter writing and he can you see yeah and then underneath 800 under additional information just underneath where it says call from see you
00:43:59 says call from see you it says well someone has added flat bomb on three full person left building do you know or can you account for how that document well that that copy had that
00:44:12 document well that that copy had that extra writing on it no I can't I mean what can happen with these forms they're filled out the sheets are sent to
00:44:23 filled out the sheets are sent to whoever needs them and then if we have further information to change it it's then a bit of a job because of all four copies have gone in different directions right so it may be that we've
00:44:34 right so it may be that we've distributed them and we've had an update on that
00:44:38 on that call and we just had to write it in pen Oh with itself I'm not saying that that's what happened in this case but that is what can happen with the control information for I see just out of
00:44:49 information for I see just out of interest when you do these control what in cu7 well you can you were you using these quadruplicate control information documents I wasn't and I didn't to start
00:45:00 documents I wasn't and I didn't to start with for the reasons I gave earlier yes but we did as what I didn't but the members of the team that I was working with yes did then go back through all the calls we had and I believe for every
00:45:11 the calls we had and I believe for every single call they filled out one of these controlling for my figures and then did they distribute the yellow copy blue copy and green copy with two runners I believe they did where exactly they went
00:45:22 believe they did where exactly they went to I don't know I would assume to the bridgehead I don't know if any copies weren't anywhere else yeah I believe they did and was how many copies were retained in cu7 I eight copy of all of them would have
00:45:36 I eight copy of all of them would have been silent as a bad question let's say how many copies I mean was was how many of the film the white yellow blue or great will retain I'm afraid I don't know I don't know how many we distribute
00:45:47 know I don't know how many we distribute it right my my question really is is it is it possible to the best of your recollection that the information flat one one three four person left building
00:45:58 one one three four person left building was information which had come back to see you seven and was being recorded by you ever who was writing on these control information forms it could be right and how that information have come
00:46:10 right and how that information have come back you have would that information mission people coming to the city coming to the command unit itself it could be a further update from control to me it could be a runner coming from the bridgehead it could be a passerby who
00:46:23 bridgehead it could be a passerby who devolved into somebody inside the building I'm afraid a number of different reasons right but was there a systematic means of communication from
00:46:36 systematic means of communication from the bridgehead back to back to the command unit not that I knew of was happening under particular deployments not that I knew of no so you
00:46:47 deployments not that I knew of no so you were reliant I said I think I think to summarize your evidence you were reliant on people stopping by and looking on the door of the command unit or I want to say we were reliant on that he just he
00:46:59 say we were reliant on that he just he just happened on a number of occasions I've got a similar run of questions on pages 47 and 48 you could take this
00:47:12 pages 47 and 48 you could take this quickly I think 47 the control information form flat 7410 floor people on roof time 2 to 16 and then we see the
00:47:23 on roof time 2 to 16 and then we see the same thing on the copy at page 48 we just turned to that but now we see other information g34 Luise - Silvo at the top
00:47:35 information g34 Luise - Silvo at the top and watch manager Sadler age 22 Paul someone's written that on that do you know how whether that information would have been inscribed within cu7 or author
00:47:46 have been inscribed within cu7 or author somewhere else it looks to me like the first copy is the one that's been completed on the command unit this yellow copies and being distributed in
00:47:57 yellow copies and being distributed in somebody else's okay somebody else has written on it just one more document in this blood if I can just ask you to look at page 1 9 6 8 sorry LF P triple 0 1 9 6 8 and look
00:48:10 8 sorry LF P triple 0 1 9 6 8 and look at page 27 now let me sorry let me start with page 12 I can page 12 yes and
00:48:26 with page 12 I can page 12 yes and leaving aside the content of this document the scheme of this document is a is what what is the what is this format the a C's me recording
00:48:40 format the a C's me recording information believe it to me at what point I'm afraid I'm not sure right
00:48:48 right almost is this from a pad this is controlling for my no it's not now sorry it's just a message pad so when we send messages to control we'd fill it out on that pad I'm sorry I'm just I've just
00:49:00 that pad I'm sorry I'm just I've just used it as a blank pad for the back of this okay I love this but this pad be available in cu8 and see you said yes right and then turning all if you can
00:49:12 right and then turning all if you can just to page 27 within the same lfb relativity number this is a blank piece of paper or a non format piece of paper
00:49:24 of paper or a non format piece of paper which says at the top cu7 and then it looks like the silver or the silver do you recognize the handwriting
00:49:35 silver do you recognize the handwriting no I don't it's not yours no okay hello it says
00:49:39 it says Brett loft I see does that make sense to you um I understand what he's meant by that yes yeah do you remember anybody
00:49:50 that yes yeah do you remember anybody recorder ever being told order amber anybody discussing the fact that Brett loft had been made into the commander no okay can you account for why somebody's written Brett lofted I see
00:50:02 somebody's written Brett lofted I see here now I'm afraid now
00:50:10 can I just go down back to your statement
00:50:16 engage page two
00:50:32 [Music] at the very bottom of the page you've got two paragraphs the last but one is about is generally
00:50:44 the last but one is about is generally about statehood policy and the last paragraph says the guidance was changed at Grenfell station manager Olaf asked me to confirm with Assistant
00:50:57 asked me to confirm with Assistant Commissioner Andy and I says oh it should be Rho I think and ero I will tell me if that's wrong yes I've assumed that that's what you mean that control staff could change their advice to
00:51:09 staff could change their advice to callers which I did I relate back to station manager Olaf that the advice had been changed I cannot recall what time will this occurred just I read all that to you I have a number of questions and
00:51:22 to you I have a number of questions and you say I can't recall what time all this occurred did it all occur at once or did what you're relating there occur over a period and station manager Lee if
00:51:34 over a period and station manager Lee if I'd been speaking to over the mobile phone at some point said to me words to the effect of can we change the advice we're giving to callers I then would
00:51:48 we're giving to callers I then would have to run that past the IC I believe I used a handheld radio to contact chatting formate the ICP to ask them to put that message to AC bell-ropes or e
00:51:59 put that message to AC bell-ropes or e AC belt AC wrote and it was within five minutes at the most they got back to me to say yes to change the advice so I
00:52:10 to say yes to change the advice so I pass it on to station manager Olaf so it all happened quite quickly yes do you remember who the incident commander was at the time of that discussion it was a C and E Rho and Rho
00:52:27 okay now sorry but you've got me questioning myself now well I didn't mean to I can't say for definite now
00:52:38 mean to I can't say for definite now that I know that I I knew we weren't I was soaked and just consumed with my role of collecting the IP information
00:52:53 role of collecting the IP information over the phone passing it on to my colleagues on the Cu that I didn't know a great deal of what else was going on there so changes in command was something it wasn't necessary for me to know that as a
00:53:06 necessary for me to know that as a priority my priority was dealing with what I was doing okay I knew subsequently later under AC role was the incident commander so I think it's just after the incident I've put two and two
00:53:18 after the incident I've put two and two together and thought that he must have been the icy dead I can't confirm now picking that I knows him alright let's see if we can take this a little bit more in stages first of all do you
00:53:29 more in stages first of all do you remember how station manager Olaf communicated to you this message mobile phone mobile phone and prior to getting that message for although from station
00:53:41 that message for although from station manager olive by mobile phone have you been aware of what fast Bible guidance so for a stapler that was concerned was being given by control room officers to callers it certainly was my assumption
00:53:57 callers it certainly was my assumption because that's default procedure and and I'm sure that would have been confirmed with the conversations I was having with
00:54:09 with the conversations I was having with control it's it's it's a default setting for incidents likely so there's no reason why we thought you would have
00:54:20 reason why we thought you would have been anything other than that okay were you aware of whether they'd been in any discussion of the stay-put policy by anybody at the incident ground before
00:54:31 anybody at the incident ground before getting the message from station manager on it no did you ever hear any discussion between any of the officers that came on either to see you ate or to see you seven when you joined it about changing
00:54:43 seven when you joined it about changing the statehood policy no that doesn't mean they didn't happen but I wasn't aware okay having spoken to station manager Olive do you remember what was the actual
00:54:54 do you remember what was the actual change in the advice that he was he was passing on to you sorry can you repeat the question well in your statement you say he you say that all I've asked you
00:55:08 say he you say that all I've asked you to confirm with and erode that control stuff could change their advice to callers and you did now what was the change as far as I know it was as
00:55:23 change as far as I know it was as opposed to stay put it was evacuate if possible right
00:55:35 do you know or did you get a sense from station manager olive that he was aware of the conditions inside the lobbies and
00:55:47 of the conditions inside the lobbies and the stairwell in Granville town at the time of that decision to change the advise would he have known what the conditions were like inside well my
00:55:58 conditions were like inside well my question is did you get a sense that he knew what the conditions were like inside I can answer that question I'm afraid okay did you ask yourself did he did you have
00:56:10 did you ask yourself did he did you have any thoughts about whether it was safe to change that advice at that stage
00:56:22 no no I I couldn't give a valid opinion on that because I didn't know what the conditions were like inside myself did you accept that you had been receiving
00:56:33 you accept that you had been receiving FSG calls yes about Denmark on different levels in people's flats in people's flats say it so right so you is this right you weren't getting any information from control about what the
00:56:44 information from control about what the conditions were like in the lobbies and in the stairwell [Music]
00:56:52 certainly not the stairwell it may well have been with Lobby areas there's a heavy smoke outside the flat we can't get out there was I'm sure there were
00:57:04 get out there was I'm sure there were messages to that effect there there was a lot of messages right and yeah I can't remember
00:57:18 there were so many messages I can't remember any individual ones I jerk I just remember a general picture of them yes okay and you say your statement you you you were asked to confirm with and
00:57:31 you you were asked to confirm with and erode do you remember whether station manager olive asked you to communicate with him or did he ask you to communicate with the incident commander no it'd have been with the incident
00:57:42 no it'd have been with the incident commander I'm afraid that's me making an assumption knowing that AC role had been in charge by the end of the incident that's me assuming he was in charge there and he may not be right
00:57:53 there and he may not be right do you remember who it was you spoke to about the change in stay-put advice it would have been wonder command support staff so somebody else like myself on Charlie four mate right so you did you
00:58:04 Charlie four mate right so you did you have a conversation with the incident commander directly I didn't really know you didn't do you know who did I think you might have been watch money as you can't feel that spoke to one CUA but it might not be now I'm sure it was one of
00:58:16 might not be now I'm sure it was one of your the staff though you say old si you ate meat by that's was that while you're still on see you ain't all you know no I was speaking to that individual on cu8 I was on cu7 right oh I see okay so let me
00:58:29 was on cu7 right oh I see okay so let me just get this right when you communicated so when you were told to communicate the change in statehood advice by station manager olive you communicated it to somebody who was on CUA did you yes right and and just just
00:58:42 CUA did you yes right and and just just to ask the question again do you remember who that who that was no I think it might be much manage you can fill but I'm not sure was wash man as you can feel back on CUA by then or might he still appeal on the incident ground if it was him damage to him right
00:58:55 ground if it was him damage to him right I see
00:59:01 and you say you say the statement which I did I relayed back to station manager Oliver look the advice had been changed how soon after speaking to whoever it
00:59:12 how soon after speaking to whoever it was you spoke to and cu8 about the advice were you able to get back to station manager Olive then confirm that the advice had been changed straight away but I may even have been on the phone to him at the time okay
00:59:24 phone to him at the time okay I only say that because I spent so much in the night on the phone to him yeah and after the advice had changed or rather after you had communicated what station manager Olive had asked you to communicate to those on cu7 did that
00:59:37 communicate to those on cu7 did that change the role that you are carrying out no does that change do you think that changed the nature of the advice that from what you could tell controller
00:59:48 that from what you could tell controller giving callers no not that I remember now do you know of any way in which the change in advice was communicated by control to callers no I don't okay no
01:00:01 control to callers no I don't okay no just to go back to your last question doubt that the the calls coming through from control to me before and after that decision was taken there was no noticeable change in the advice coming
01:00:12 noticeable change in the advice coming to Rome right thank you I've got one more question afraid to ask me just to get back to a picture if you can please go back to the picture of tab 43 which
01:00:30 go back to the picture of tab 43 which is any tea trip triple zero one five nine two four
01:00:40 it's just a another point of detail you've got numbers which have black or
01:00:51 you've got numbers which have black or blue rings around them so for example
01:00:57 one three three you've got a green two and then a black two with the ring rounded with what that signifies the key
01:01:13 rounded with what that signifies the key states below greenies adult and Blackie's children
01:01:21 yes I'm sorry I'm just trying to [Music]
01:01:29 I'm afraid I don't remember did this de circled numbers I don't remember okay if you look further up against one five three you've
01:01:42 further up against one five three you've got black five which would be adult bed children yes and then you've got a 3 black three in a circle does that help you remember anything it's yeah is that not a blue three is that well it could
01:01:53 not a blue three is that well it could be either way no I'm afraid I don't okay okay I remember so you can tell cuz you got four you've got four hours five children without a black three so you don't know about that means it's a good
01:02:04 don't know about that means it's a good example and 176 if you could determine that there's another one is might help but 176 you've all you've got there is a
01:02:15 but 176 you've all you've got there is a three in a circle signify no I'm afraid now okay
01:02:31 mr. maryk thank you very much indeed I have no further questions for you and mr. Chanin I don't know whether you've got any further questions I have no further questions yeah well thank you very much I'm extremely grateful to you for coming to
01:02:43 extremely grateful to you for coming to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations were extremely grateful thank you yes well open door sir mr. maryk we rely on having good evidence from people who were there at a time so
01:02:54 from people who were there at a time so that we can understand what was going on and I think the evidence you've given about how fire survival guidance was communicated it's going to be very helpful so thank you very much indeed
01:03:06 helpful so thank you very much indeed thank you we'd like to go with the you're free to go thank you now mr. chairman thank you I'm afraid to say
01:03:18 chairman thank you I'm afraid to say that we do not have any further witnesses for this afternoon it's an early early finish well I don't think many people will be blaming you for that well I had not we do have our
01:03:29 for that well I had not we do have our next witness tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock if that's an appropriate start time and that will be Jonah Smith good all right thank you nothing else we need to do today not today thank you well
01:03:40 to do today not today thank you well thank you very much so we'll break there and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you
01:03:55 you