Evidence from Group Manager Dave O'Neill on his role as sector commander for safety and operational responses on the night
00:00:03 well good morning everyone and welcome to today's hearing which we're going to hear I think the last tranche of firefighters evidence so yes there are
00:00:14 firefighters evidence so yes there are three witnesses who can be called to give evidence today the first of whom is group manager Dave O'Neill right thank you very much
00:00:46 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give but the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing
00:00:57 whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr. noodle yes mr. Koerner thank you would you please confirm your name for the record my name is David Michael O'Neill mr. O'Neill
00:01:08 is David Michael O'Neill mr. O'Neill thank you very much for attending today it's much appreciated on the lectern in front of you there is a blue folder and if you open that folder behind the first tab that you should find your statement given to the police date at the 7th of
00:01:20 given to the police date at the 7th of July of last year is that right that's correct yeah and if you turn to the next tab you should find that your contemporaneous note is that right
00:01:31 contemporaneous note is that right correct yes and finally if you turn to the third and final tab you should find the exhibit to your witness statement which is a sketch planning map is that right yes sir and have you read those documents recently yes I have and you
00:01:43 documents recently yes I have and you confirm their contents are true yes I do and you content for those documents to stand as your evidence to this inquiry yes I am now um mr. Neil if at any time you need a break please say so that's
00:01:54 you need a break please say so that's not a problem most importantly if at any time one of my questions is unclear please say so and I'll rephrase them okay the first topic I'd like to discuss with you is just to get some sense of
00:02:05 with you is just to get some sense of your background and your role is it right that you've been employed by the London Fire Brigade since 1993 that's right yes and that on the night of the 14th of June of last year your callsign was echo 63 that's correct
00:02:18 your callsign was echo 63 that's correct you're currently a group manager for operational policy and the rescue team is that right currently acting in the role of Deputy Assistant Commissioner and was your role on the night group
00:02:29 and was your role on the night group manager for operational policy in the rescue team yes it was and at the time of the fire how long had you been in that role I've been in a group manager role for about three years four years
00:02:40 role for about three years four years and with specific responsibility for operational rescues throughout that time so my reference was and the head of technical rescue responsible for some of our more technical capabilities such as
00:02:52 our more technical capabilities such as collapsed
00:02:53 collapsed which are rescues with water rescue rope rescue etcetera thank you now turning to your experience in training what experience have you had of fires in high-rise buildings during your career
00:03:05 high-rise buildings during your career so during my career I've been to several high-rise fires I've been a station manager since 2006 so I've taken command
00:03:16 manager since 2006 so I've taken command of such incidents and so whilst I I'm based down in the south of London you know I've still been to several house fires what experience do you have
00:03:28 house fires what experience do you have off fires on high-rise buildings involving cladding and I've no experience Grenville tower fire was my first experience I had a tower with
00:03:39 first experience I had a tower with cladding have you received any training in relation to fires on high-rise buildings involving cladding not specifically involving cladding now have you had any training in relation to
00:03:50 you had any training in relation to rapid fire spread on the face of high-rise buildings and how best to combat such phenomena I've no idea training in rapid fire spread we are conscious of fire spread on the outside
00:04:01 conscious of fire spread on the outside of buildings through stuff like personal belongings on balconies pigeon netting Nets coming out and curtains coming out of windows during the summer and that's
00:04:13 of windows during the summer and that's kind of predicted fire spread I would say rather than rapid fire spread we familiar before the ground for fire of the fire Shepherd's court I was not so now have you had any previous experience
00:04:27 now have you had any previous experience of fires involving a breach of compartment ation I have had experience of breach of compartment ation through
00:04:38 of breach of compartment ation through an ill-fitting fire doors for example but nothing the extent of the night of the ground floor terrifying anything any fires involving brutal compartment ation in respect of high-rise buildings during
00:04:50 in respect of high-rise buildings during you know I haven't am I can I assume that you're familiar with policy 633 yes I am and what training have you received
00:05:01 I am and what training have you received in relation to policy 633 so in the two years before the at Granville so all of our training since probably the the fire at national
00:05:13 since probably the the fire at national house has incorporated high-rise fire survival guidance elements to it through the various promotion rounds I have undertaken there's always been a focus to to our adopted high-rise policy and
00:05:27 to to our adopted high-rise policy and has also incorporated fire survival guidance within that but but again not on the scale that we experienced on on that evening now on the night of the fire you were assigned the role of sector commander for safety what
00:05:39 sector commander for safety what training had you been provided in order to discharge that role so I've undertaken that role on several occasions and that role is borne out I suppose from being a safety officer
00:05:52 suppose from being a safety officer within a single sector and then as experience and and and rank sort of progresses then to take on that role of sector safety so it's so role that's very familiar to me I've had no specific
00:06:03 very familiar to me I've had no specific training in sector commander safety however we regularly practice different sector command roles when we do our annual incident command training in
00:06:15 annual incident command training in relation to your experience of secretary commander can you give us an idea of say in the two three years before the fire how many times you're called upon to act in that role as setting a safety yes and
00:06:27 in that role as setting a safety yes and I think probably two times in the three years leading up to that and what work can you give us an idea of the scale the nature the instance and we show at that role one I recollect will be a warehouse
00:06:39 role one I recollect will be a warehouse fire where we had several sectors operating we had safety officers within each sector and we had partial collapse within the building and that would be a
00:06:50 within the building and that would be a typical example one I recollect or undertaking that wrong finally just a respect of experience and training
00:06:58 training could I ask Danny to put up on the screen document lfb quadruple zero one two five six which will be policy six three three
00:07:28 and if we could go to internal page 16 of that document
00:07:38 and mr. O'Neil just let you to invite you to read Paris seven point six five and seven point six six just familiarize yourself with this
00:07:58 mr. O'Neil presumably you're aware of those two paragraphs obligations they place on safety officer yes I am and with these two paragraphs and the
00:08:09 with these two paragraphs and the obligations they contain be relevant to the role you performed on the night of the 14th of June last year absolutely they were to be relevant to my role and they'll be relevant to the briefings I gave to safety officers within each sector thank you now if I can turn to
00:08:22 sector thank you now if I can turn to the night itself and in terms of timings the LFP have given us records which indicate that you were paged at 0 1:30 you were mobile at 1:33 and you arrived
00:08:33 you were mobile at 1:33 and you arrived at the scene at 0 to 12 does that sound about right to you yes it's yeah now at the point you were paged you say that you were told it was a 20 pump fire and
00:08:44 you were told it was a 20 pump fire and whilst you're enroute did you have any idea of what role you'd be called upon to perform once you arrived at the scene no I didn't as I've put in my statement
00:08:55 no I didn't as I've put in my statement mobilized to a 20 pump fire that's a lot of time in the morning you know I I suppose I expected to be going to a warehouse or you know a big recycling
00:09:07 warehouse or you know a big recycling fire tend to be of that size it was it was only when I think as I put my statement I turned on my air wave radio as I was getting ready to leave that I heard fire survival guidance calls being
00:09:20 heard fire survival guidance calls being passed over to the incident from control and it was at that point I you know I realized it was a residential building can I now turn to your arrival at the
00:09:31 can I now turn to your arrival at the command unit and your role assignment by DAC allotting yep now once you arrived on scene you say you went to the command unit on Bowmore Road which in there which we now know to be cu8 is that rice
00:09:42 which we now know to be cu8 is that rice correct yes and how long did it take you to get to see you 8 from where you parked and obviously a probably within you know a minute in a minute and a half actually ran from my car from where I
00:09:53 actually ran from my car from where I parked I spoke to some of the firefighters a and they directed me directly to the to the Cu so I was there very quickly see you that if you arrived at 0 to 12 you certainly there by
00:10:04 at 0 to 12 you certainly there by quarter past very zero tito sitting there by two 15 by 15 certainly yeah I had to get into my fire here and there make my way to the to the Cu yeah now on your way to see you eight you say that you could see
00:10:16 see you eight you say that you could see that quote the top half of the south and east sides of the block and saw that it was a well-developed fire close quotes what was your thinking on how best to combat the fire on what you first saw at
00:10:28 combat the fire on what you first saw at that stage and I didn't think actually that we we would have the capability to combat that fire externally for all I knew at that time with the limited information I had that could well have
00:10:39 information I had that could well have been the exterior light and and which could well have burn off you know at that stage I I knew there was some FSGS in the building and I knew that our tactics would be to fight the fire
00:10:51 tactics would be to fight the fire internally so given the size of that building and the scale of the fire that I saw I knew that external firefighting wouldn't be an option for us given that
00:11:02 wouldn't be an option for us given that you had a sense of the volume of FSG calls upon route you saw a well-developed fire on the town what thoughts did you have in relation to evacuation for example by the time I got
00:11:16 evacuation for example by the time I got to the incident still in my mind I think was the fact that had that been an external fire spread that would have been terrifying for residents that were in in that building even if it hadn't
00:11:30 in in that building even if it hadn't broken through to the compartment they were in that would have been a terrifying sight so that may have have given indication as to why there was such a volume of fire survival guidance cause so if you so repeat your question
00:11:46 cause so if you so repeat your question again given what you saw yeah given what you'd heard volume of FSGS was your own route what thoughts did you have in relation to evacuation of residents by the time I got to the tower actually
00:11:57 the time I got to the tower actually there was a there was a fairly steady stream of of people leaving the tower and that was on their own and also accompanied by lfb personnel so it was
00:12:09 accompanied by lfb personnel so it was almost as if you know a steady evacuation was taking place at that time and were able to see what condition people were who were but who were being evacuated
00:12:20 evacuated varying conditions everyone was very scared people were coming out there was a large amount of debris that was falling around the the entrance and exit to the building so you know they had to
00:12:32 to the building so you know they had to be controlled and if anything else you know people perhaps thought they were safe when they got to that point and in natural fact they still weren't safe so there was a lot of fear around and so
00:12:43 there was a lot of fear around and so some people were walking and we were trying to control their exit their egress and others were being escorted by fire gate personnel so the conditions were varied these were the people you could see being evacuated as you were
00:12:54 could see being evacuated as you were running towards Cu aters so this is after I received my briefing from the where the command units positioned I couldn't actually see the entrance of the tower so everything I've just told you is actually when I arrived at the tower thank you
00:13:05 tower thank you can we go step back in time shop to your attendance at cu8 itself when you arrived is it right that DAC lock-in was the I see yes he was yeah and was a
00:13:17 the I see yes he was yeah and was a group mashup at Goulbourne on see wait when you're right yes he was you say at page 33 of your witness statement quotes when I arrived at the scene you there weren't many people about which is
00:13:29 weren't many people about which is unusual place quotes and why do you say it was unusual not to have that many people on the Cu the fact it was a 20 pump fire they'd been mobilized to would
00:13:40 pump fire they'd been mobilized to would normally have meant that there would have been a staged as we would call make up escalation of the resources to reach that point and that would attract lots of officers you know before me so I
00:13:52 of officers you know before me so I expected a fire that size normally you would have officers almost waiting for a role outside the command unit you'd also have command units staff you know working busily on the command unit when
00:14:04 working busily on the command unit when I got there it was pretty barren so there was as I recalled one Cu staff member and he unlocked in and pet Goulburn that that was it and can you
00:14:15 Goulburn that that was it and can you remember did dacl Oakland did he briefed you first or did he brief group group manager Goulbourne first can you remember he he briefed it kind of
00:14:26 remember he he briefed it kind of happened at the same time so and I think group manager Goldwyn asked the whereabouts of group Welsh and he there was a conversation
00:14:37 Welsh and he there was a conversation about the fact that he should join him in the town support him and kind of happened at the same time then because of my background in in collapsed
00:14:48 of my background in in collapsed structure rescue and and building collapses generally I think do Co Lockland identified that I'd be the most suitable at the two of us to conduct the senior safety wrong now in relation to
00:15:00 senior safety wrong now in relation to group majeure Goulbourne he's he was it he who asked where group manager Welsh was or was this da Co Lachlan raised whereabouts of as I recall I think it
00:15:11 whereabouts of as I recall I think it was group manager Goldman asked her whereabouts and was group manager Goulbourne given any further instruction by DAC allotting he was told to go and support and group manager Welsh in the
00:15:22 support and group manager Welsh in the fire sector and with those the words that were used to my recollection those are the words that were used no wood DAC Lachlan been aware of your background in urban social yes you were too young and
00:15:33 urban social yes you were too young and can you remember the precise instructions he gave you and give us the detail or the gist of the will show you yeah so my brief was very brief he he said given my background he would like
00:15:46 said given my background he would like me to go in and I think as I recall it he said and put some structure around the incident so I think he was satisfied that there was a recognizable structure
00:15:58 that there was a recognizable structure inside dealing with the the firefighting tactics and and what was probably lacking at that point was was any formal structure for the activity that was taking place outside of the tower so he asked me to go and put some structure around it and then appoint
00:16:11 structure around it and then appoint safety officers and take that role of senior safety did he go into any further detail as to what he considered to be lacking on the exterior no he didn't know he did inform me so he did him for
00:16:24 know he did inform me so he did him for me that there was a large amount of debris falling around the building so I can I had that information before I went down now you were given the role of sector commander for safety what was
00:16:35 sector commander for safety what was your understanding of your responsibilities given the instructions you've been given by DA Co Oakland so primarily my role was to identify the hazards that were present to those working and evacuating around
00:16:48 to those working and evacuating around the building identifying brief safety officers for each area of operations that are outside the building and then relay that structure back to the command unit once
00:17:00 structure back to the command unit once they have been established now page three of your witness statement I can bring it up if you want but I suspect it's not necessary you set out the conversation you had with dacl Oakland and he says quotes da ole Oakland then
00:17:12 and he says quotes da ole Oakland then asked me to put some structure around this and some safety structures because he knew my background in us are that's urban search-and-rescue he also asked my opinion on what effect this might be
00:17:24 opinion on what effect this might be having on the building first of all that this is presumably the fire is that we yeah that's right yeah and what did you understand him to be asking you in terms of what the effect was so my
00:17:37 of what the effect was so my understanding was not an immediate report back because it was still you know fairly early on in the incident it was more to monitor that the escalation of the fire in the effect that fire was having on the building if it was having
00:17:50 having on the building if it was having a detrimental effect on the structural stability in the building so it was kind of an ongoing reference really to to monitor the the changing conditions as the incident escalated and take that
00:18:01 the incident escalated and take that into account for our own tactics so this stage when you've given your initial instructions by dear sir Lachlan did he say anything to you about full or partial structural collapse no he didn't
00:18:14 partial structural collapse no he didn't did do looking require you to give him regular updates as to what you were finding as you discharge your functions he he did but he his role was taken over
00:18:26 he he did but he his role was taken over pretty quickly after that so in actual fact my reporting line was was to the incident commander AC and ero what instructions that da CA Lachlan give you as to the nature and regularity of
00:18:38 as to the nature and regularity of updates he required from you well I think da la colline knows my background and knows my experience so he didn't go into that detail on his brief and not nor did he need to you know
00:18:49 nor did he need to you know I know how regularly I need to feedback and and that's periodically every 30 minutes or when something deteriorates or new new hazard becomes present he that would be an expectation to me were
00:19:00 that would be an expectation to me were you given any guidance as to how best to communicate with him I was it by runner by radio or any other it wasn't we were still operating on channel 1 at that time so that would be my primary means
00:19:11 time so that would be my primary means of communication but throughout the incident we had regular face-to-face meetings with do see a lot in and AC row actually on the incident ground before you let cu8 were you've given given any
00:19:22 you let cu8 were you've given given any briefing as to the adequacy of radio comms and effectiveness of when you were allocated your role as the sector
00:19:33 allocated your role as the sector commander for safety we were able to find out whether a dangerous structure engineer had been requested no I didn't ask that question because I think the the structure and the establishment of a
00:19:44 the structure and the establishment of a safety structure and an operating structures - yeah so I was more important given my background of working with danger structure engineers that was at the forefront of my mind and I know
00:19:55 at the forefront of my mind and I know that request went in fairly early on because in fact when I asked for it I was told it already been requested and so I think the request was made at 0 to 17 ok how long were you in cu8 if we can
00:20:08 17 ok how long were you in cu8 if we can do you remember probably less than 5 minutes would you have expected given the nature and scale of the fire would
00:20:20 the nature and scale of the fire would you have expected a dangerous structure engineer to have been there already with no experience yeah because and it was
00:20:31 no experience yeah because and it was apparent that what was burning was the facade of the building which could well have burn and actually not impacted on the structural stability of that building so whilst it's a consideration
00:20:45 building so whilst it's a consideration we have large scale fires anyway and fires have been burning for some time I wouldn't have expected a DC to arrive any earlier than they did did you have any sense that the exterior fire
00:20:57 any sense that the exterior fire involved cladding
00:21:01 this stage well what stage what what you know we're still in cu8 now only from what I could see did anyone was you have been briefed referred to cladding not that I recall
00:21:14 referred to cladding not that I recall back now if I can now turn to your role as the sector commander for safety once you've been assigned the role what was your plan of action so initially there
00:21:27 your plan of action so initially there was a there was a huge amount of burning debris falling around the the entrance and planing away from the building actually on on two sides that would have been on the south side and the the west
00:21:39 been on the south side and the the west side there were a lot of firefighters going about their business hurriedly moving around in that what I deemed to be a dangerous environment so primarily
00:21:51 be a dangerous environment so primarily it was to try and formalize some safe access in and out of the building and that was by drawing everyone away from the debris field as it was building and have a line of access from a covered
00:22:04 have a line of access from a covered walkway and I did that as silly I suppose as it may seem at the time I did that with some tape from it from a unit which actually did hold up because it's
00:22:16 which actually did hold up because it's something that's recognized by the fire service if we see a tape troop we would tend to follow it and what it did do is keep everyone away from that Southside face really because of the amount of
00:22:28 face really because of the amount of debris that was crashing down around us I I wanted to get safe access egress and then put in a safety structure around that on both the south and the east side
00:22:40 that on both the south and the east side where there was a lot of soil and the west side where there was a lot of people doing stuff you know firefighters doing stuff and they would seem to be very focused on the task and perhaps not
00:22:51 very focused on the task and perhaps not as aware as they should have been as the hazards that I saw them falling around them now it's past that role i think i'm right in understanding that page four of your statement you divided the tower
00:23:02 your statement you divided the tower into four sectors is that right that's correct and just so we've got clarity sector 1 was the main entrance on the Southside her out right sector two was the west side of the tower yes sector
00:23:14 the west side of the tower yes sector three was the north side yes and finally sector four was the east side yes so the the tower hadn't been formally sector or the the the incident ground hadn't been formally sexualized on the outside at that point there was sector
00:23:26 outside at that point there was sector ization within the building because generally that's a that's how we sector eyes for a high-rise whereas they said it was a three-dimensional incident so it required sector ization both within
00:23:37 it required sector ization both within the building and around the outside now would you've expected external sector ization to have taken place given the intensity of the exterior fire by this state in the evening yes I would
00:23:48 evening yes I would i I think it was pink probably people were acting as if it were in place because we're so familiar with that process of sexual ization it just it just hadn't been formalized probably
00:23:59 just hadn't been formalized probably because of the lack of availability at that time of suitable officers to do it because everyone was focused on the task of moving into the building when you
00:24:10 of moving into the building when you thought to it when you made to establish the four sectors formerly were there any individuals who'd assigned to themselves the role of sector commander that you encountered well I know no that there
00:24:22 encountered well I know no that there was however at the time I think you're referring to the sector for the west side yeah that was the first I'd heard of it the individual that I identified
00:24:33 of it the individual that I identified as a suitable and safety officer for that sector wasn't identified as a sector commander I'm I'm sure they had taken that responsibility and I'm probably doing it a good job of it but
00:24:44 probably doing it a good job of it but actually the priority was safety rather than managing operations of in a sector therefore I mean he was assigned he was assigned as a safety officer he didn't
00:24:55 assigned as a safety officer he didn't tell me that he'd assumed the role of a sector commander so the first I heard of it was when I heard his evidence no you say he went on to the incident ground and quotes decided that I needed to
00:25:06 and quotes decided that I needed to enter the block to get appraisal of what was being done inside close quotes and first of all why did you have to go inside in order to gather knowledge to discharge a role which concerned the
00:25:18 discharge a role which concerned the outside of the tab because I wanted to connect the activity outside with activity inside and there's a senior safety called sector safety I had an also responsibility for safety
00:25:30 I had an also responsibility for safety inside the building and I wanted to establish what had been put in place or what structure being put in place to cover that off and so connect the two working environments and so who did to
00:25:41 working environments and so who did to go speak to in order to get that knowledge so my plan was to go and speak to either pack open or Richard Welsh whoever I came to first did you manage
00:25:52 whoever I came to first did you manage to speak to either mister Goulbourne or mr. world not in the first entrance at our I think so helped with a casualty removal that at that stage on your first did you manage to get any information regarding conditions within the tower on
00:26:04 regarding conditions within the tower on that first entry I did by talking to some of the firefighters I think watch manager Williams it was in the lobby area and personally knowing some of the
00:26:16 area and personally knowing some of the firefighters have been into that building and coming out and I was able to establish what conditions they were facing can you help us with any recollection of what watch manager william ii told you about conditions
00:26:27 william ii told you about conditions with them to have the detail or the gist I've already told you I really can't I mean it's kind of all mixed together you know it was it was it was kind of just how bad the conditions were really and
00:26:39 how bad the conditions were really and and yeah I mean I think I established very early on there's a single staircase as well which was which was hampering operations but all I was getting back
00:26:51 operations but all I was getting back was was you know pretty strong evidence that the conditions were pretty appalling inside can you remember whether you were given any specific briefing as to whether the external fire had penetrated to the interior of the building
00:27:02 interior of the building no we've given any idea of the extent of smoke logging on the single stairway probably not not at that time no now if
00:27:13 probably not not at that time no now if I can turn now to the implementation and the performance of the safety second sectors during the course of the night now page five of your witness statement you first the fact that you appointed
00:27:24 you first the fact that you appointed watch manager Beal as your first safety match I think watch might appeal from Soho yes on the east side so that set is for and you go on set page five quotes that he was to watch for large
00:27:35 that he was to watch for large every four people waving for help and to keep the grassed area clear now in relation to the people seem to be waving did you give any further specific
00:27:46 did you give any further specific instructions to him as to what he was to do once he'd spotted the reason for that was so that we could try Nasser tain whereabouts they were in the building and to ascertain with that correlated with the fire survival guidance calls we
00:27:57 with the fire survival guidance calls we were getting you know I remember seeing people at the windows on that side and I think at that point is very difficult to establish whether they were being
00:28:08 establish whether they were being directly affected by the effects of the fire or whether they were just scared you know seeing what was happening around and so it was to establish where we had savable life at that point can we
00:28:20 we had savable life at that point can we took through the the system you put in place what manager bill was instructed to look out for people waving from the windows how was he to pass that information was he to pass it - who was
00:28:33 information was he to pass it - who was he - me - to me by radio by RIT and you were going to pass that information where I was going I was going to pass that make it information back to the command unit - the incident commander thank you and during the course of the
00:28:47 thank you and during the course of the night was the means of communication was it supplemented by runners or any other means most of our communication ended up being face to face at one point we tried to establish a channel - command
00:29:00 to establish a channel - command structure for the for the sector's or command channel sorry for the sectors that didn't work so we reverted back to channel 1 and as you've heard because of the volume of traffic over that radio
00:29:12 the volume of traffic over that radio that that became difficult so in the end most of my communication was done face to face just dealing with each element of that you say you tried to set up channel twos as the command well I
00:29:23 channel twos as the command well I didn't but the the command team I remember what stage in the evening that attempt was made and that was it was after a sea road arrived and and
00:29:34 was after a sea road arrived and and taken charge of the incident so I can't really put a time on it can you can you remember successfully accessing channel 2 at any stage in the evening no
00:29:48 dealing with your communications between yourself and mr. Beal yes did the radio work at any stage in Eve yes we did have radio communications but because of my
00:30:00 radio communications but because of my position on the sector one on the east side it wasn't that far for me to travel really and I spent most of my time running around from sector to sector but he wasn't a great distance away from me for me to be able to talk to face to
00:30:13 for me to be able to talk to face to face or even to shout if we needed each other so do you consider that any good can i summarize your evidence this way please shout if it's not right or unfair that any radio problems that existed on
00:30:26 that any radio problems that existed on the night didn't impede your communications between yourself and mr. Beal no I don't think they did you're passing on the information to the
00:30:38 passing on the information to the command unit that's right that you'd received from mr. Beal did you get any sense of repeat information being forwarded by mr. Beal in relation to say the same individuals from the same
00:30:49 the same individuals from the same floors not at that early stage there was there was a time later on in the incident where I follow something up personally with the FSG see you but at that early stage I was just a past
00:31:02 that early stage I was just a past information given you mentioned it could we deal with that individual instance what was the particular FSG you felt the need to follow up on directly was it this this was someone I think on the
00:31:14 this this was someone I think on the 11th floor and the south side of the building who was waving a towel out of the window and and that person was kind of being protected by a crew that was working in really quite arduous
00:31:27 working in really quite arduous conditions on the flat roof or the walkway on gravel walk adjacent to the building and we tried to communicate to that individual by using a loudhailer I
00:31:38 that individual by using a loudhailer I think at one point we considered writing a mobile phone number on a door that we found to try and communicate for them to leave the building but I managed to speak to group manager Tom good or at
00:31:50 speak to group manager Tom good or at that point to make sure that this person was on on his list as it were that we were making efforts to that he was aware that there was someone there that could be saved can
00:32:01 someone there that could be saved can you remember what time in the evening you made this direct approach to a group matter good or was it had like broken by the stage I think so probably was starting to get like yeah no I think you
00:32:13 starting to get like yeah no I think you refer to and this particular incident at page seven of your witness statement and you say there and I can take you to it if you help but what you say is you could see that there was fire all around his flat the individual on the 11th
00:32:25 his flat the individual on the 11th floor the crew kept the water from their grand monitor on the area around him they stopped the fire spreading and I feel saved his life is this the innocent you're referring to yes no just was
00:32:38 you're referring to yes no just was we're dealing with it you refer there to the ground monitor what was your assessment of the effectiveness of the grand monitor in containing the fire around this particular flash on the 11th
00:32:49 around this particular flash on the 11th floor it appeared to be very effective because it actually did stop the fire sprayed I think I think what that success was due to planning above that
00:33:00 success was due to planning above that window having been burnt off and therefore whether it directs you more to spray above and to each side of where the window was I think that enabled the water to penetrate or to stop the fire
00:33:12 water to penetrate or to stop the fire spread anything it was directed directly at the cladding was just bouncing straight off but because of the extent of cladding that burnt away I think I think that enabled the success of of
00:33:25 think that enabled the success of of keeping that fire from reaching that individual can I go back now to the implementation of the safety sectors of forties I know it took you down another route now you also said in your witness statement you nominated watch manager
00:33:36 statement you nominated watch manager war more as a safety manager and quotes directed him to monitor access and egress and assists by looking out for falling debris from a position under the covered walkway now first well did you
00:33:48 covered walkway now first well did you ask much much of more to do anything else above and beyond those particular duties no I didn't I main concern once we'd established a kind of Route in and out of that building was to keep that
00:33:59 out of that building was to keep that exposure to those hazards as limited as we possibly could and that was by directing people on his command from the covered walkways straight into the front door and and vice versa and
00:34:11 door and and vice versa and stopping people at the doorway who were egress in the building so they could look up and almost jaar jaar momentary pause in in the debris fall to get them
00:34:22 pause in in the debris fall to get them out I mean that that was refined a bit later on with using the police but I'm sure we talked about that did you also ask him to look out for track residents waving from the windows as well I I can't recall the comical
00:34:37 as well I I can't recall the comical is it possible likely probable but I think it's very likely because he would have needed situational awareness of his sector so that's the operations that are going on within the sector keeping
00:34:48 going on within the sector keeping everyone both members of the public and and our staff safe but also having the situational awareness and that would involve him updating you on fire spreads yeah I just I mean I have to say at that
00:35:00 yeah I just I mean I have to say at that point in in Sector one it was so bad and and the amount of burning debris that was falling down made it almost impossible to see anything up that's how
00:35:11 impossible to see anything up that's how he had the bright lights of the lobby shining at at us you know which was two floors and glaze so fair bit of light coming out at us so to see above that was pretty tricky actually you had more
00:35:23 was pretty tricky actually you had more chance up on the walkway to see what was going on in the building and would you go up to the walkways to character yeah that was going on base so I went to walkway many times I mean first of all
00:35:34 walkway many times I mean first of all when I when I returned from a point in what China jbeil is a safety sector so as a safety officer in sector four I became aware then that there was water being played onto the onto the building
00:35:47 being played onto the onto the building from this walkway so I went up to investigate and that's where I met watch manager Collins from Paddington and and his crew that were using the ground monitor to stop fire spread from the
00:35:59 monitor to stop fire spread from the west face round to the South face they were trying their best to suppress that but also they were using a second smaller hose reel to extinguish some of
00:36:10 smaller hose reel to extinguish some of the burning debris that was falling down because there were flats up on that walkway that actually had still had people in at that point but there was a danger that they would catch fire from
00:36:22 danger that they would catch fire from the burning debris falling onto there porch ways and onto their flat roof okay go back to watch madam or presumably given his position you communicated him with him face to face Robin yes yeah no
00:36:37 with him face to face Robin yes yeah no I think it's at this point in the evening that you established a new access point through the windows and panels of the office kitchen space on the west side of the towers that's in Sector two is that is that accurate yes
00:36:48 Sector two is that is that accurate yes so the conditions were that bad in Sector one that I asked a crew to make returned access in in Sector two which
00:36:59 returned access in in Sector two which was the East face because at that point there was no fire on the east face and and I firmly believe that we could stop the fire from spreading you know for internal operations okay I thought we
00:37:10 internal operations okay I thought we could stop it spreading round so I asked for turn access to be made in in Sector two initially that was done by ladder and that you know the the news came back to me that governor we've got an access
00:37:22 to me that governor we've got an access but it was actually a pitch ladder so I knew that would that wasn't acceptable to me because if we evacuate members at a public we don't want to take them down the ladder so I gave instructions to for the crews to smash their their way
00:37:33 the crews to smash their their way through the panels and give us a wider easier access ground level thank you now you say later on in the evening you instructed an appointed watch magic Gregory to be the safety management
00:37:44 Gregory to be the safety management sector - for the West's the west side is that right that's correct now when you when you appoint I said watch now jbeil you've got watch manager more and you've now got to watch manager Gregory is it you're just looking for
00:37:56 Gregory is it you're just looking for someone of watch manager rank yes above a nominating yes and nothing more than that yes apologies for asking a lawyer type question and became a member what time of the night you appointed watch
00:38:08 time of the night you appointed watch magic Gregory that's good the safety officer yeah it was i coming for a time no give you a reason why but i can't remember the time okay so the reason why
00:38:19 remember the time okay so the reason why as well as we had that successful access where she moves our operations around to that west side so we had the London Ambulance Service were positioned up on
00:38:31 Ambulance Service were positioned up on a hill where them main reason apparatus area was that was quite a long travel distance to get casualties so it's a better care the walkway that would be
00:38:43 better care the walkway that would be the obvious cover was actually flooded so that would have been an inappropriate area to have a casualty handling area and at that point I think due to the risk assessment of the London Ambulance
00:38:55 risk assessment of the London Ambulance Service commanders the they wouldn't allow paramedics to enter the lobby so we couldn't have any medical assistance where we really wanted them which was in the lobby to triage casualties at at the
00:39:07 the lobby to triage casualties at at the point that were brought down the stairs the closest thing they got was at the end of the Grove garages which was in Sector two so that was kind of established as a holding area and a new
00:39:18 established as a holding area and a new casualty handling area which was actually closer than the the previous one up on top of the grass thank you the next stage the necks of tasks that you
00:39:31 next stage the necks of tasks that you appear to have done is and it may be helpful if I could ask you to turn to your contemporaneous note and Danny this can be found that met quadruple zero five two eight one never could turn ask
00:39:44 five two eight one never could turn ask you to turn to page two of that
00:39:51 and mr. O'Neil you'll see it's roughly ten lines from the bottom of the page you say I checked in with station manager Kipling up on the hill in Sector three Lancaster Green amplify that thank
00:40:05 three Lancaster Green amplify that thank you which has been used as a holding area for crews I've dated the waiting crews regarding the current situation can you remember now the form of the
00:40:16 can you remember now the form of the detail of the update you gave at that stage yeah I can that was directly after I'd met with them a C and E Row where he informed me that that the guidance given
00:40:30 informed me that that the guidance given for fire fire survival guidance had been changed or we were instructing people to leave the building if they could that prompted me then to go and speak to the
00:40:42 prompted me then to go and speak to the crews that were on top of that hill when I gather the junior officers together that were up on on the hill when I gave him a brief that conditions would have changed inside the building now so the fact that we would potentially have
00:40:53 fact that we would potentially have large numbers of people leaving the building on that single staircase meant that perhaps they wouldn't be able to complete the tasks that they were assigned and they may well spend their time almost guiding handballing
00:41:05 time almost guiding handballing residents out so it was to prepare them for a change in tactics if you like inside the building and there changing the conditions that they because most of
00:41:16 the conditions that they because most of those people have been in once already so it was kind of a change in the conditions that they had already experienced okay now you say this is after stay put had been withdrawn yes so
00:41:27 after stay put had been withdrawn yes so sometime after 247 in rough-and-ready terms okay when a Siro updated you on that yes did he seek any advice from you
00:41:38 that yes did he seek any advice from you given your particular experience and background as to how best to evacuate people how best to safely evacuate people I should say no not specifically at any stage in the evening were you
00:41:50 at any stage in the evening were you asked given your particular background and expertise on advice as to how to execute a safe evacuation but the total or partial I don't see have been
00:42:01 or partial I don't see have been relevant to my particular area of expertise but answer no okay the reason why the question arises simply because of your background in search-and-rescue that evacuation may
00:42:12 search-and-rescue that evacuation may form a part of that yeah no okay when you were or as part of the update you were giving to station manager Kipling
00:42:23 were giving to station manager Kipling did he give you any update on the availability of EDB a cruise I could see for myself the resources we had in hand and there was a lot there was a lot of
00:42:36 and there was a lot there was a lot of resources there so I could see for myself
00:42:39 myself what we had in hand and it was in large numbers and you had no sense there was a deficit or deficiencies not at any stage of the evening no if I can ask you again
00:42:52 of the evening no if I can ask you again Danny could I ask you to go back to mr. O'Neill's contemporaneous note and page three of that contemporaneous notice and
00:43:03 three of that contemporaneous notice and if I could ask you to look at paragraph nine or the paragraph that's numbered nine rather and the second element of that you say discussion CIC to reverse
00:43:14 that you say discussion CIC to reverse FST guidance and get people to evacuate working outside of agreed protocols to mix EDB a and s DBA was justified as was recommitting EDB a cruise for a second where both of which should be reviewed
00:43:25 where both of which should be reviewed and established for future consideration first of all were you involved in any of the discussions regarding first of all availability of e DB a cruise no not of
00:43:37 availability of e DB a cruise no not of availability now we you have involved in any discussions regarding recommitting of EDB a cruise yes I was yeah can you give us the detail of the discussions that you were involved in
00:43:48 discussions that you were involved in okay so you know as a commander for safety I had many discussions with AC ro and I work with AC ro for quite a few years now you know we've got quite a
00:43:59 years now you know we've got quite a good relationship so we we do bounce a lot of ideas off of each other and I suppose he wanted to use me as a sounding board whilst it was an obvious thing that we had to do you know it
00:44:10 thing that we had to do you know it would have formed part of my negotiating and prepare ring for brexit is one of the most complex tasks service ok yet so he would
00:44:21 complex tasks service ok yet so he would have fault able to change my risk assessment so it has changed a situation for me so it was right and proper that we would have had those discussions and it was right and proper that we would move away from our current policy and
00:44:33 move away from our current policy and and use the resources we had to do to do what we had to do on the night and a gift to us the cook and your advice was sought presumably because of your background in us are no this is just my
00:44:46 background in us are no this is just my background as a as a senior fire officer my background working with fire rescue unit crews who are the ones who carry a DBA you know I know many of them personally and I know that you know none
00:45:01 personally and I know that you know none of them would have hesitated to do it was if anything you would have only have been policy holding us back from doing it and that wasn't a good enough reason on the 9th if I can now turn to the topic of the change of advice from stay
00:45:13 topic of the change of advice from stay put yep and you divert it to there and the quoted extract from your contemporaneous note apologies we re tracking somewhat but just to identify the topics we're dealing with and page 5
00:45:25 the topics we're dealing with and page 5 of your witness statement and we can go to it if you need to you say that you remember discussing with AC wrote quote whether to overturn the FSG advice being given from stay put to get out if you can now can you remember the stage in
00:45:38 can now can you remember the stage in the evening when you had that conversation with a seer oh yeah I don't so I think it was probably the first time actually saw him and I think it was more of a one way discussion if I'm
00:45:49 more of a one way discussion if I'm honest it was it was very yeah him telling me that that's that's what had happened so that's what prompted me to go and then briefed the crews about the change in situation so at that point I
00:46:02 change in situation so at that point I thought because of the flow of people coming out the building that probably that had happened if I'm honest and so yeah it was a discussion point it was more for me to go and in for me to
00:46:15 more for me to go and in for me to change my own risk assessment and did you give him any advice as to how best safely to get people at out and down at the time
00:46:25 the time we both knew we had crews in from the bridgehead or you know as high as we as we could I can't recall where we were at that point but we would have had a system in place and hence my briefing to the crews that actually that could have
00:46:37 the crews that actually that could have led to lining the staircase to guide people down in in a smoky environment so that that's kind of a a given if you like okay so because it's a given can i summarize your evidence in this way
00:46:48 summarize your evidence in this way because it was a given it wasn't something that you explicitly discuss with a seer oh there's out of first some yes in your witness statement you say you considered the change of advice
00:47:00 you considered the change of advice quotes to be essential because of the number of phases we could see at the windows and it was agreed what thinking did you have at that stage as to how you were going to communicate the change of
00:47:11 were going to communicate the change of advise to residents who was still within the tower see I didn't I didn't have other than the loud hailer we had on you know our disposal up on the walkway that
00:47:22 know our disposal up on the walkway that was being conducted by people within there within the building so you know when we were I think at that point we'd had two people actually faced with the most horrendous of decisions and took a
00:47:34 most horrendous of decisions and took a decision to jump from the building I was very mindful that waving of arms and kind of beckoning and and I do recall considering that may be misconstrued as
00:47:47 considering that may be misconstrued as asking people to jump and for that reason I discounted if you like physical communication so I'm very clear about
00:48:00 communication so I'm very clear about that because I didn't want to encourage that so I we went back to the loudhailer and and really it was it was a responsibility that those working inside and they had they had that briefed by
00:48:12 and they had they had that briefed by them so and so you say we went back to this of the loudhailer was a loudhailer therefore deployed on the outside calling up to see residents yes it was how many loud hailer x' and well i knew
00:48:26 how many loud hailer x' and well i knew about one on the the roof III now since no there was another one down on the sector four but there's so much noise going on there was a kind of with the debris crashing around us the engines
00:48:38 debris crashing around us the engines running of the far appliance he's providing water there was kind of a zipping noise of this molten metal zipping past us there was so much noise on the incident ground really the the
00:48:51 on the incident ground really the the loud hailer schwer were useless I was but I was about to ask you just the effectiveness of the loud hailer as a means of communication given the surroundings and you got no impression from the actions of residents still within the tower that they'd heard the
00:49:03 within the tower that they'd heard the advice to some their son right now and I was really conscious about you know how scared people would be in that environment and I was having experience two people jump from the building I was really conscious about not promoting
00:49:16 really conscious about not promoting that and I couldn't forgive myself for for making it for encouraging that if you like so no could I ask you to turn up page five of your witness statement
00:49:28 up page five of your witness statement and it's the bottom the last paragraph on that page and then you you say the fire ground radius throughout the
00:49:39 fire ground radius throughout the innocent will not great to see you try to set up a command channel but didn't work I did a lot of running between sectors to and from that c-dac O'Laughlin an assistant commissioner and erode Nansen commander who came to me to
00:49:50 erode Nansen commander who came to me to get updates at one point we discuss whether overturn the FSG advice being given from state code to get out if you can I said it was essential with the number of phases we could see the windows knows agreed and this is a bit I'd like to talk to you about yeah I
00:50:01 I'd like to talk to you about yeah I then made my way to the BA main control on the east side sector four near the north end of gravel road I gathered the crews it gave me new information AC Rowan charge forty pumps fire FSG advice
00:50:14 Rowan charge forty pumps fire FSG advice overturned the last was particularly important to make them aware of potential increased casualty traffic in the stairwell and her need to facilitate it I think we adversity yes yeah what
00:50:26 it I think we adversity yes yeah what did what advice did you give them as to how best to get people out of the tower safely or safe as they could I didn't it wasn't my role to do that so they would
00:50:37 wasn't my role to do that so they would have received their detail brief from the commanders at the bridgehead in I wasn't in a position to overturn any briefing that was already going on internally so it was just more to
00:50:49 internally so it was just more to prepare them for a changing dynamic to let them know what resources we had in on the incident ground and to let them know that we had a new incident commander or to question what they did know we had a new incident commander so
00:51:00 know we had a new incident commander so it was prepare a tree rather than a briefing on tactics just so that we can't stand your reasoning why did you give place such primacy on the
00:51:11 give place such primacy on the instructions given at the bridgehead as opposed to any advice you might give given your background in us are as to how best to facilitate evacuation yeah but just to clarify my background in in
00:51:22 but just to clarify my background in in urban search-and-rescue is rescuing people from collapse structures it's not evacuating the building before me that says that confined scenario yeah so the reason I gave that brief to the the
00:51:33 reason I gave that brief to the the crews day is because they'd already been in once in the main and they had an experience I wanted to make it absolutely clear that it would be a different experience and and I have to
00:51:44 different experience and and I have to have to say that those crews they're going into a fire that fire one time is exceptional coming out and seeing the deterioration of that building knowing and volunteering to go back in a second
00:51:56 and volunteering to go back in a second time is beyond exceptional and I wanted to prepare them for a role they they might set themselves in their head and particularly as I know from experience when you're given a task at a bridgehead
00:52:07 when you're given a task at a bridgehead when you you can't perform that task because you meet someone the stay away or you get involved in something else another rescue it's quite frustrating and so I want it I want you to prepare
00:52:18 and so I want it I want you to prepare them for the new experience they were going to go back into you referred there in the paragraph I quoted that discussed with mr. Rowe whether to withdraw stay
00:52:31 with mr. Rowe whether to withdraw stay put when you were having that discussion was mr. O'Laughlin there at the same time no it was just you mr. Rowe yes do you know at what stage that mr. Welsh
00:52:42 you know at what stage that mr. Welsh mr. gold born were given an update as the change advice no you didn't overhear any any instruction no you case there no I didn't
00:52:53 I didn't can I now turn to a separate topic which is the vault meant to the dangerous structure and yes now we don't need to go to it but we can do if it helps you at the top of page 6 of your witness
00:53:05 at the top of page 6 of your witness statement and you say that and I quote I then took a moment to review the building the east side sector 4 had the worst fire and I tried to make an appraisal of what might happen to the
00:53:16 appraisal of what might happen to the building just so we get a point in time this moment when you reviewed the building was after a sea road getting the order to change advice is that right
00:53:29 yeah I think so because of the way it's written in the in the statement was this the first time you'd had the opportunity today to carry out a considered review
00:53:40 today to carry out a considered review of the state of the fire no I think it wasn't the first opportunity I just think that because of the time that had elapsed it was probably about time that I had to consider what effect this
00:53:51 I had to consider what effect this intense fire was having on the building so was the time leading up to that was dealt with putting in you know tactics and structures I think at that point I
00:54:02 and structures I think at that point I had a moment to actually consider the time I've been cool to the incident and then how long that fire had been burning on that side and the debris field that was the stuff that was falling down to
00:54:14 was the stuff that was falling down to consider and then further impact on the structure what was the the conclusion you reached following this review so the top of the building was exposed by that time were kind of they look like
00:54:26 time were kind of they look like concrete fascia panels really large concrete panels or big circles in and I couldn't see from my position what was holding them together not and and I
00:54:37 holding them together not and and I didn't know if it was part of a the refurbishment structure I was I was really concerned given the the sizes on the debris that have fallen down that actually if those panels started to come down you know they would kill anyone
00:54:49 down you know they would kill anyone that was in the area so I am at that point I think I just spoke to watch manage of Bureau and just made sure that we pulled back a bit from that from that area and I had people at their time who are trained within collapse structure
00:55:01 are trained within collapse structure training in the past you know shout me to put in a cordon one-and-a-half times the height of the building which is kind of what we would do for something you think it's going to collapse but that and I didn't think he
00:55:12 collapse but that and I didn't think he was going to collapse I was just worried about these these large slabs falling from the roof and this stage here you're looking up at the building had you met the Barossa fair by this stage or was was it after you'd met him no no I
00:55:25 was it after you'd met him no no I hadn't and if I can refresh your memory if I could ask Danny to turn up your contemporaneous note again on page two
00:55:36 contemporaneous note again on page two now if you'd asked Danny to highlight the bottom paragraph which starts I had some concerns and there you set out your
00:55:47 some concerns and there you set out your contemporaneous recollection which was I had some concerns regarding --into to the building due to the intense heat or whether structural engineer had been ordered I chased their ETA now stopping there was the absence of a structural
00:55:59 there was the absence of a structural engineer a concern a hindrance at that stage can you help us no I don't think it was it was just part of my forward planning really so I was just keen to to
00:56:11 planning really so I was just keen to to establish an early relationship with a suitably qualified dangerous structure engineer actually as to how this was going to impact on the on the building can you amber how soon after you were
00:56:23 can you amber how soon after you were able to review the state of the building how soon after the borough surveyor arrived yeah I think it was quite soon I again by the way this written in my statement I think it it was it was fairly soon this I think I think the
00:56:36 fairly soon this I think I think the names right this Emir turned up and want to summarize it fairly but you didn't get much in terms of substantive assistance from him is that a fair way to put that's that's a polite way of
00:56:49 to put that's that's a polite way of putting it I think the actually went once I showed this gentleman around the the building and you know I'm not criticising the gentleman involved you quite often we we asked for dangerous
00:57:02 quite often we we asked for dangerous structure engineers and we get people who sign off people's extensions and and borrows now even sharing resources so it there's list consistency from the advice we get so when we ask a
00:57:14 we get so when we ask a authority for a danger structure engineer we may get a qualified surveyor who's not used to dealing with fires who's not used to dealing with collapsed structures when I showed him the
00:57:26 structures when I showed him the building and the extent of it he asked me how many people I was thinking of putting into the building ie firefighters and whereabouts I told him that we had 50 people in that
00:57:38 him that we had 50 people in that building which when he just put his head in his hands and just started saying no like this you know almost overwhelmed by by what he was seeing and was it after
00:57:50 by what he was seeing and was it after that conversation that you telephoned mr. Allen
00:57:53 mr. Allen he got mr. Allen on the phone and handed the phone to me or I asked I asked to speak to him on the phone who I understood to be a more senior more qualified engineer and correct me if I'm
00:58:07 qualified engineer and correct me if I'm wrong but the gist of that conversation was that mr. Allen told you is on his way and the advisory of the building wouldn't totally collapse or pancake due to its construction type is that a fair summary yeah it was very cool at that
00:58:18 summary yeah it was very cool at that point and told me that there was two to four hours fire protection on that building as in fact had the first gentlemen so the fact that the fire been burning for that time at that point you
00:58:29 burning for that time at that point you know that had been exhausted but they were both adamant that there was two to four hours protection for the compartments in that fire you then go on in the highlighted part say you passed
00:58:40 in the highlighted part say you passed on this information to the SI unit could we just try and get a timing on that and we have some documents which may assist mr. O'Neal AC ro provided a log and there's an entry on that log and if I
00:58:53 there's an entry on that log and if I could ask Danny to turn it up its met quadruple zero five four zero four page two
00:59:07 and if we can look at 4:06 can ultimate entry so does you just a refresh your memory or read it you may
00:59:19 refresh your memory or read it you may not have seen it before
00:59:26 yep can you remember whether your conversation your first conversation on telephone with mr. Allen was before or after
00:59:36 after 4:06 and I I think it's before and is it
00:59:47 4:06 and I I think it's before and is it likely that the information that you received from mr. Allen you would have fed back to mr. Rowe yes is Mac if I could ask Danny to turn over the page to
00:59:58 could ask Danny to turn over the page to page me rather two pages page four of the log and the timing entry at zero 450 worn at top of the page which reads
01:00:09 worn at top of the page which reads structural severe in attendance at leisure centers to make decision on temperature of building it looks what structural survey was clearly intense by that stage does that accord with such
01:00:21 that stage does that accord with such recollection of timings you now have he does and I suspect that was the second surveyor mr. Allen yes and if I could
01:00:33 surveyor mr. Allen yes and if I could just find it just to help you fix yourself in time if we look down at 5:32
01:00:41 mr. ney I'll let you read that okay
01:00:55 okay so that would confirm then that it was the initial engineer if mr. Allens inbound at that point and does the advice that's recorded there accord with
01:01:06 advice that's recorded there accord with your recollection of the advice you received yes it does so mr. Allen was able to tell us the the date the building the original building was built
01:01:18 building the original building was built he confirmed our knowledge of its construction type any he if had if any concerns I think it came up later on that the building wouldn't collapse in
01:01:32 that the building wouldn't collapse in its entirety but if anything if a column was displaced on any of the corners that you might have a kind of a just a corner collect partial collapse which is
01:01:43 collect partial collapse which is something that happened at random point I think some years ago and I think that's what everyone had in mind is that the collapse in the late 60s yes can I ask you just once we're dealing
01:01:54 can I ask you just once we're dealing with mr. rose log just asked Danny to turn over the page to page five and the entry at six thirteen which is roughly the middle of that page and you say that
01:02:08 the middle of that page and you say that DSE disrespect could not get high enough no floor collapse pancake frame building max fire resistance four hours firefighters shot two hours of columns fall not saying will collapse if no
01:02:20 fall not saying will collapse if no people let it burn will attempt to locate plans no does that summary there accord with your recollection of the further discussions you had with mr.
01:02:31 further discussions you had with mr. Allen he does it seemed quite late for me
01:02:34 me so I attempted to get mr. Allen into the building to see some of the rooms and and some of the lower affected rooms so
01:02:47 and some of the lower affected rooms so he could fully satisfy us all really on the structural integrity of that building I mean that failed we tried to get him in took him to a point that was
01:02:58 get him in took him to a point that was very smoky I think he he wasn't comfortable in that environment at all so he asked to come out I think at one point we also got them up into our aerial ladder platform as well
01:03:09 into our aerial ladder platform as well so we could have a look at the what you could see from the outside of the building
01:03:12 building okay link to that the final topic for now I'd like to discuss with you mr. Neil that's debris well this will take
01:03:23 Neil that's debris well this will take us to ten past eleven where so I does for almost a Satori five minutes so I can review my notes so we're not far off a break effect so if you think I was going to get at the end of this topic in
01:03:34 going to get at the end of this topic in the few minutes you have to carry on the action
01:03:39 action final topic is debris would you adversity on a number of occasions what steps did you take to protect hoses from falling debris yeah
01:03:52 falling debris yeah little I would say so it's a as you're aware falling debris then damaged the hose lines that were feeding the dry rising main and yeah at that point there
01:04:07 rising main and yeah at that point there were they were almost almost buried in the area around the building so so no no steps no steps at all no I think not
01:04:22 steps no steps at all no I think not that I recall what I recall kudos Danny just to draw a policy 633 again and it's lfp quadruple zero one two five six and its internal page ten
01:04:48 and if I could ask you to highlight para graph 7.7 a top near top so now I'll just ask you to refresh your memory
01:05:09 now looking at paragraph 7.7 there mr. O'Neil yes why was it let's think it stays by state did you give any consideration to putting equipment in
01:05:20 consideration to putting equipment in place to protect hoses from the falling debris I think the the hose lines going in we're taking the shortest route in and those feeding these dry rising main were very quickly covered so at that
01:05:31 were very quickly covered so at that stage no okay
01:05:35 did anyone raise with you the need to take any steps to protect hoses whether firefighters or the commander and people in between can you help us as to why not
01:05:55 in between can you help us as to why not what you think there was a photo so I mean to submit that the the the debris field everything was buried you know we couldn't see concei hose lines you know we were
01:06:06 concei hose lines you know we were climbing over debris to get into the building as debris was falling down presumably yes and that was building up and building up and it was just it was obviously dangerous underfoot to say the
01:06:18 obviously dangerous underfoot to say the least but everything was was buried really quite early on and I think that's I think that's probably why actually and can you help us as the debris fell did
01:06:30 can you help us as the debris fell did it continue to burn it was being extinguished so the the access to the west
01:06:37 west - sorry to the east side sector - had a kind of a catwalk wire mesh system over it which was kind of protecting that
01:06:48 it which was kind of protecting that area close to the building from from large debris fall it was beyond that where the debris field was building and it literally buried everything everything around it mr. O'Neill if you
01:07:00 everything around it mr. O'Neill if you forgive me I'd be grateful five minutes just to see if there any further points which arise but for now and I've got no further questions may could ask you to rise for those five minutes well I think we might be sensible to take a normal
01:07:11 we might be sensible to take a normal break at this point interesting I'm in your hand sir well I think five minutes is a bit
01:07:16 is a bit so meager so we'll we'll have a break for 10 minutes yes you jumped to restriction eggs have a cup of coffee whatever okay back at 20 past 11:00 please and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of
01:07:28 about your evidence while you're out of the room
01:07:28 the room I'd like to give the option please
01:07:38 20 parson makes it
01:19:00 well mr. Kenya have some more questions sir yes
01:19:05 sir yes yes well I think mr. Anil is just about to come back in
01:19:20 [Music]
01:19:24 right mr. Neil I think a few more questions as usual yes mr. Neil thank you very much first of all could I ask Danny to bring up page 6 of your witness statement which is met
01:19:37 your witness statement which is met trouble zero brilliant and if we could look at the last seven or so lines of the first paragraph on paragraphs on
01:19:48 the first paragraph on paragraphs on page six and you say there that in relation to concerns about building collapse you thought that as long as Cruz state near the core of the building they would be okay first of all how do
01:20:00 they would be okay first of all how do you ensure that firefighters stayed near the core of the building so that was a brief that I fed into group manager Goldman and in the tower that wherever possible to use that as a kind of safe
01:20:13 possible to use that as a kind of safe haven if you like which which would have been the lobby area and then it was the extreme corners I suppose of each flat or of the building that we were most
01:20:24 or of the building that we were most concerned about if there were displaced columns as we found out later that there were that would be a primary cause of
01:20:35 were that would be a primary cause of collapse for us so that was a tactic that I fed into grit manager golden and what effect would compliance with that advice have on the conduct of operations within the tower if I'm honest I think
01:20:48 within the tower if I'm honest I think firefighters would have just done what they needed to do I don't think would have had much effects similarly when I was asking for reports of now cracking banging or signs of sagging floors and
01:20:59 banging or signs of sagging floors and and displaced columns again with the conditions that I knew were in that building that was a tall order so I think firefighters would have done what they needed to do it was just I needed
01:21:11 they needed to do it was just I needed to pass that information across so it was included in any other incident would that have been an acceptable level of risk no absolutely not we this the discussion I have with Andy Rowan I know
01:21:22 discussion I have with Andy Rowan I know it's documented about whether we carry on or not we had several of those discussions throughout the night at what point do we do we stop and you'll see from his evidence the Human Rights X and
01:21:34 from his evidence the Human Rights X and the the Fire Rescue Services Act we used as a basis of a strategy to keep on going even in the event and luckily it didn't come of a verse serious injury to
01:21:45 didn't come of a verse serious injury to one of our firefighters could I turn now to a separate topic concerns helicopters yes did you ever have need to communicate with the helicopter no you saw my other police helicopter
01:21:59 no you saw my other police helicopter yes now the discussion with a Siro about the use of helicopters for potential evacuation from the roof we had a curious report of someone on the roof on
01:22:11 curious report of someone on the roof on a Facebook account I understand and we went we considered requesting a Coast Guard helicopter but almost as quickly we discounted it because of you know
01:22:24 we discounted it because of you know what we know about someone be police I'm above that sort of heat and on a winch it was just not viable and what were the other risks that flowed from deployment of a helicopter for the purposes of
01:22:35 of a helicopter for the purposes of rescue people from the top floor I don't think anyone in any agency would have committed an airframe directly above the fire this is as simple as that where the
01:22:46 fire this is as simple as that where the police could give us an observation from a different perspective by hanging off you know setting off from the building but I can't think of an agency that would have committed directly over the
01:22:58 would have committed directly over the top of that be the heat that was being you know given off from that building across all four sides of that building I can't think of an agency not even the military would have committed to to that
01:23:09 military would have committed to to that environment could I turn now to another separate topic and that's the the dangerous structure engineer yes and I think in earlier evidence you said that
01:23:21 think in earlier evidence you said that your first attendance of the SI unit you were made of you asked about a dangerous structure engineering you were told one had just been ordered yes and that appears to be around 217 or there abouts
01:23:33 appears to be around 217 or there abouts the first record we've been able to find at the attendance of the DSC was 450 warned now can you remember again apologies for a lawyer's question can
01:23:44 apologies for a lawyer's question can you remember when you were first told that the DSC had arrived at the site I can't put a time on it I know they were directed straight to me so there was no delay meet me talking to them but I can't it was dark when I
01:23:57 them but I can't it was dark when I spoke to the the first engineer and you know I can't even it was because we discussed a number of firefighters read
01:24:08 discussed a number of firefighters read in their building I think it was fairly soon after I made that assessment so I struggle to put a time on it you refer in your evidence to chasing for an ETA
01:24:20 in your evidence to chasing for an ETA from the dangerous structure engineer how did you go about chasing were you contacting the Cu what were you doing yes I would speak to the CEO and the CEO would speak to our control room who would then speak to the local authority
01:24:32 would then speak to the local authority and and ask for an ETA so it's did you emphasize that the the need was a priority did you use that word no because at that point yet the arrival
01:24:43 because at that point yet the arrival that of that engineer didn't change anything so it it wasn't a priority it's just it was it was a something we had to consider it's you know something we had to get done we don't need to go to it
01:24:56 to get done we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to there's a reference in the log at zero 312 a reference a call for a dangerous structural engineer as a priority do you remember that well
01:25:07 as a priority do you remember that well I wouldn't I wouldn't know about that there's an also another reference at 336 from cu8 for an ETA or whether there'd be a direct line to DSC to allow them to liaised - were you responsible for
01:25:19 liaised - were you responsible for asking that call to be made no every opportunity I had to speak to the incident commander you know that would have been part of our conversation where is this danger structure engineer and as I said before this is a it's an ongoing
01:25:32 I said before this is a it's an ongoing problem for us and something we're hoping to resolve now just for the second completeness were you aware of a further call at 3:48 from cu8 for an update on the arrival of the DSC were
01:25:44 update on the arrival of the DSC were you aware of that no would you emphasized the need for DSC in when you were giving updates to AC ro and was it something that he prompted no
01:25:55 and was it something that he prompted no I think it would have I think it would have formed part of all of our conversations into until they arrived just to keep it keep the pressure on really because in our planning and you know we're
01:26:06 our planning and you know we're repeatedly committing people to this building we wanted someone with some knowledge of the refurbishment and some knowledge of the integral structure of the building and the impact that this the intensity of the fire would have had
01:26:19 the intensity of the fire would have had over that prolonged period of time so it was something that we would have just kept the pressure on to satisfy our own risk assessment did you have cause to speak to mr. Allen as to an explanation
01:26:30 speak to mr. Allen as to an explanation at the time he'd taken to arrive at the tower no I work with mr. Allen for some time even after the fire and I think I've established he was fairly collected
01:26:44 I've established he was fairly collected when I spoke to him on the phone he wasn't showing the same behaviors as his colleague until he arrived of course and then you know different take on it in
01:26:56 then you know different take on it in your conversation mr. Allen were you did you refer to the need for his speedy arrival or urgent arrival yes I did not swear - on the phone I assume and at the time actually was very close so I kind
01:27:10 time actually was very close so I kind of put across what I already been told by his colleague which he confirmed about the two to four hour fire resistance explained that actually were about four hours into the incident already you know or they're about three
01:27:22 already you know or they're about three to four hours and the fire was burning far more intensely than anyone probably I would have expected let alone he would have expected and so that would have changed perhaps the behavior of the
01:27:35 changed perhaps the behavior of the building in your discussions with mr. Amir did he refer at all to the use of cladding as part of the refurbishment was he aware of that he was aware of
01:27:46 was he aware of that he was aware of that
01:27:46 that yes and did he communicate that awareness to you and he just told me that the building had been refurb it recently refurbished didn't going to do I mean it was it was clear that the cladding was burning off and falling off
01:27:57 cladding was burning off and falling off so and again did you refers the presence of cladding with mr. Allen in your conversations with him again I did and he spoke to me about the refurbishment but actually I was I was more interested
01:28:09 but actually I was I was more interested in the integrity of the building behind the cladding the actual real structure of building not the facade and the intensity that the fire would have on the actual concrete structure rather than anything was just burning and falling off I wasn't particularly
01:28:20 and falling off I wasn't particularly concerned about and so did mr. Allens specifically refer to cladding when he was giving you a debrief on what the refurbishment involved the term cladding was used consistently throughout that
01:28:32 was used consistently throughout that night so he didn't come from him it may have come from me but that was determined the general term used for what was on fire and what was falling can I now turn to a separate topic and
01:28:43 can I now turn to a separate topic and it's the gentleman on the 11th floor yes you fir you described in your statement to been told by a crew of a man who kept appearing disappearing window waving a
01:28:54 appearing disappearing window waving a talents believed that he was on the 11th floor did you have discuss this gentleman and his location how to rescue him with for example what majesty of Collins no so watch manager Collins and
01:29:06 Collins no so watch manager Collins and his crew were wholly occupied by stopping the fire spreading to this this person and dealing with the burning
01:29:17 person and dealing with the burning debris that was falling around and potentially setting light to the flats that were on the green for walk so he he was at an elevated position so he wouldn't've had an opportunity to take part in any any rescue from from his
01:29:29 part in any any rescue from from his position what we could do is just establish where the individual was they kept coming and going to the windows so there'd be nothing and then there wouldn't stop operations then then a
01:29:40 wouldn't stop operations then then a towel would appear again you know and it was more a case of trying to pinpoint where they were in the building and making sure that they fire survival guidance see you had that on their records and had them and then in turn
01:29:53 records and had them and then in turn had committed crews to that location so as far as I'm aware in my own involvement that was the first time we actually managed to triangulate a rescue because from having seen it calculated
01:30:05 because from having seen it calculated it confirmed from the efficacy you and then to be told actually by the FSG see you that they'd been rescued I got that information back and when you saw the
01:30:17 information back and when you saw the gentleman at the window was the ground monitor already set up and spraying water it sounds if it was if it was yeah because I think early on that person I understand has some disability and maybe blind crystal did you know that at
01:30:29 maybe blind crystal did you know that at the time was that no what did you acquired after the event it's not his record at the event but and how did you acquire that knowledge it was Noah rescued I think it became apparent but the it was this towel that kept
01:30:40 the it was this towel that kept appearing them so I never said we never saw an individual which one arm and a towel waving out of a window and and bearing in mind the location of that flat and how damaged other flats were in that kind of area you know it was it was
01:30:52 that kind of area you know it was it was it was almost a miracle that that person survived me can you remember what time you first saw the gentleman at the window way from the tower I can't names
01:31:03 window way from the tower I can't names I can you remember where the ground monitor was positioned and every time I went up to the the walkway I kept pulling that crew back because they kept
01:31:15 pulling that crew back because they kept edging their way forward to try and get the ground monitor and they were on the walkway there up on the walkway so they were trying to position that grand monitor which is got quite a you know it
01:31:26 monitor which is got quite a you know it throws a fair distance of water so they were trying to edge forward to I think encapsulate the east side as well as the south side and it was me that kept pulling them back because they were absolutely exposed to the debris that
01:31:39 absolutely exposed to the debris that was falling around them and I was really clear that wanted them to have safe egress if there was any partial collapse on that side that they could escape you know in true fashion they completely
01:31:50 know in true fashion they completely ignored me really and then it was I went out there they'd move forward again and repositioned it but so the monitor moved it was from that kind of on the corner of the south west side and they were
01:32:03 of the south west side and they were edging to try and and get the most coverage they could from it and you mentioned the triangulation in order to affect the rescue were you aware were you given any information about the FSG
01:32:14 you given any information about the FSG cause be made by the gentleman no I didn't I didn't consider it to be an FSG call as such I just I knew that there was a so verbal life and so I introduced that into the FSG system
01:32:29 that into the FSG system come on out just turn to some final topics mr. O'Neill and first of all it's if I could go back to your contemporaneous note if that's possible Danny and it's really the relation to
01:32:41 Danny and it's really the relation to the paragraph numbered 7 the bottom of the first page of your contemporaneous note other thank you and you'll see the paragraph number 7 what you tasks were
01:32:53 paragraph number 7 what you tasks were doing on your arrival reports see you at Bowman road should be approximately written as spurred dear CEO Lachlan and asked to implement a safety structure around the US and and report back with an appraisal now can you remember
01:33:07 an appraisal now can you remember whether you report it back to DA CEO Lachlan with an appraisal first of all I think he came to me first can you remember when or how soon after
01:33:19 can you remember when or how soon after the initial instruction was given that he came he approached you I think he was probably with a cero when I first had a
01:33:30 probably with a cero when I first had a report back no mr. rode didn't take over until 0 to 44 so presumably the
01:33:42 until 0 to 44 so presumably the appraisal took place after that yeah I honestly I can't remember I mean we had many discussions at the base of the tower and periodically I went back to
01:33:53 tower and periodically I went back to the see you to have to give updates on on our progress and that happened continually so I can't put it on the first time that happened I'm afraid okay but is your evidence that you provided
01:34:05 but is your evidence that you provided an update sometime between whenever it was 0 to 10 12 and 0 244 and I remember the ACO Lachlan coming to see me and
01:34:18 the ACO Lachlan coming to see me and coming to see effectively what structure had been put in place so now I'm reflection I think probably that happened before I saw a Ciro ok this may
01:34:31 happened before I saw a Ciro ok this may be a lawyer's question but is there a difference between providing an update and providing an appraisal no turning to evacuation you said that
01:34:43 no turning to evacuation you said that evacuation wasn't relevant to your particular expertise in us are now if that's so who are the experts within lfb to deal with evacuation of high-rise
01:34:55 to deal with evacuation of high-rise buildings where does the specialism sit I think the specialism sits within our fire safety engineers who provide advice to building constructors on evacuation
01:35:07 to building constructors on evacuation systems that are put in place so with this being an old type building you know I think unfortunately we weren't given that opportunity but there was no means
01:35:18 that opportunity but there was no means of raising in a Brenda mind the time of the day I imagine that many of the residents would have been asleep at the time there was no way of raising everyone as a whole other than banging
01:35:31 everyone as a whole other than banging on doors and I think expertise it's in in new construction and actually our advice to building you know companies whatever whoever putting this stuff
01:35:43 whatever whoever putting this stuff together the term so they should include evacuation systems following from Euron's
01:35:49 Euron's but the difficulties raising people given the time of night did you consider using the building's intercom system as a means of I did not would that have
01:36:00 a means of I did not would that have been a practicable means of communicating the change of advise for example I don't know if it would have been or not familiar with them given the difficulties of back using the lot the
01:36:11 difficulties of back using the lot the loud hailer and the importance of communicating the change of advice was the intercom system something which should have been considered as a means of communication I think as far as I was
01:36:22 of communication I think as far as I was aware we had crews inside that building from from the ground floor up to as I know for a fact to be the 22nd floor at least therefore I thought we we had
01:36:34 least therefore I thought we we had communication with with the entire building you know it was only later on I learned about the difficulties of accessing past certain points at certain times so with the the volume of of crews
01:36:46 times so with the the volume of of crews that we had in that building and I was under the impression that we had access to raise that alarm could I now go back to policy mr. Jo just ensure
01:36:59 now go back to policy mr. Jo just ensure that I button is good question and answer correctly when you refer to the intercom system can you just make it clear what your firm's yes it's it's the building intercom system that basically
01:37:11 building intercom system that basically buzzes in the lobby to communicate with each individual flat and so what you'd be able to do that suppose my essential point is this that a priority could have been ringing the buzzer on the higher
01:37:22 been ringing the buzzer on the higher floors to alert them for example to the change of advice yeah I understand entirely what what you're suggesting and it's not something that I considered on okay could I turn to back to policy 633
01:37:38 okay could I turn to back to policy 633 and the reference Danny is lfb quadruple zero one two five six and page sixteen within that policy and looking at
01:37:51 within that policy and looking at paragraph seven point six six says the IC should appoint safety officers soon as practical to monitor conditions in the staircase now you were obviously monitoring the exterior the officers you
01:38:04 monitoring the exterior the officers you appointed in terms of Central Command world monitoring exterior do you know who was monitoring the interior I the stairwell yes at that time it was a
01:38:15 stairwell yes at that time it was a station manager Nick Myatt who had taken that responsibility he was certainly looking at the conditions within that building and the welfare if you like of
01:38:27 building and the welfare if you like of our crews that were recommitting to make sure that they were capable of every committing to that building was he would you say Nick what you knew Nick mark was doing that role was he reporting back to
01:38:39 doing that role was he reporting back to you with what he was finding I every time I went into that building to make contact the conditions have changed so
01:38:47 there was that that was that face to face system but it was so dynamic that the bridge had you know as you know moved more than once and the stairwells became completely smoke logged and then
01:39:01 became completely smoke logged and then and they're not so so as it was so dynamic and moving so so often I don't think we had any consistent stream of information it was they were monitoring and briefing as
01:39:12 they were monitoring and briefing as best they could final question mr. O'Neil and that's relation to lives in circumstances where the fire lift is not functioning what steps would you expect to be taken to disable the lift so residents wouldn't
01:39:24 disable the lift so residents wouldn't be able to use it generally are you saying yes well I understand the father
01:39:35 saying yes well I understand the father I tried to secure a firefighting lift and to my understanding that wouldn't happen that wouldn't be disabled they would deal with the fire that was in the place of origin of that fire and they're
01:39:48 place of origin of that fire and they're fine I don't know how the lifts we use on that night I know they weren't used in the way that they should have been you know for our purposes so yeah I'm not sure how to answer that really okay
01:40:00 not sure how to answer that really okay mr. Neal thank you very much for the evidence you've given today it's very much appreciated and you've covered quite a lot of ground in your supplementary as you're confident that you don't need a further five minutes to
01:40:11 you don't need a further five minutes to check I am yes all right good well mr. Neal thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's really available to us too yeah the tents of
01:40:22 available to us too yeah the tents of people who were there at the time and we're very grateful to you for coming on thank you thank you very much no you're free to go if you die together the ashes you look after you
01:40:42 yes whoa so the next witness is group manager Nick Davis so might ask you to rise for five minutes just so that there can be the organizational organizational
01:40:53 can be the organizational organizational changes yes thanks like that and you can all see how she to come and tell me as soon as you're ready Thanks
01:44:58 yes mr. Kiran Oh sir I misled everyone in fact the next witness is watch manager Dean Ricketts and rather than sent him back Michael what manager Dean Realtors of course thank you
01:45:35 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the truth thank you very much
01:45:47 the truth the truth thank you very much mr. ekeus yes sir will you please confirm your name for the record Bing Ricketts and in front of you there is a blue folder and if you turn to the first tab you should find
01:46:01 turn to the first tab you should find your statement date of the 23rd of July of this year is that right that's correct sir and have you read that statement recently if so I and you confirm its contents are true yes sir and your content for that statement to
01:46:13 and your content for that statement to stand as your evidence this inquiry climate Issa mr. Ricketts if any time you need a break please say so that's not a problem thank you and secondly if any time my questioning is unclear please say so and
01:46:24 questioning is unclear please say so and I'll rephrase thank you very much now the first things I'd like to discuss with you mr. Ricketts is just your background in the fire service is it right at the time of the fire you're a watch manager bb4 Bertie attached a
01:46:37 watch manager bb4 Bertie attached a green watch at North Kensington that's correct sir and that you've been a firefighter for some twenty four years it's very exciting the first substantive topic I'd like to discuss with you is the Fire Services
01:46:49 discuss with you is the Fire Services Act 1947 section 1 D visits the risk of disrespect you've been a firefighter long enough to have carried out 1d visits is that right that's correct
01:47:00 visits is that right that's correct - what it what did the 1d visits involve just just familiarize ation visits really sir just going out and identifying risks on the station's
01:47:11 identifying risks on the station's ground and middle rising now ask ourselves on that on those risks and those those buildings in there where else is a risk to the community can you remember what was the trigger for a need
01:47:23 remember what was the trigger for a need for a visit under Section 1d or that remembers no to be honest do you remember being given a checklist such as a similar one to appendix warned behind policy 633 I don't recall that
01:47:35 behind policy 633 I don't recall that sir I wasn't an officer at time okay what differences if any are there between the visits you used to conduct on the 1d and the visits you now conduct
01:47:47 on the 1d and the visits you now conduct - seven - D okay solder one one D visits were recorded on paper form and both those the the paper records of laquet certified in the fire station within the filing cabinets and with secure storage
01:48:00 filing cabinets and with secure storage attestation so everything was done on paper and so is your evidence the principal difference was the mode in which the information was recorded want the old system is on paper the new
01:48:11 the old system is on paper the new system we turn on and on that guy's correct
01:48:15 turning to policy 633 what's the trigger under the present system for a section 72 D visit we're are very informed locally possibly by a station manager or
01:48:28 locally possibly by a station manager or or fire safety team or possibly the crews might identify wife's going about our business within the community that there may be a building or a new premises that's been erected and a new building that could possibly be visited
01:48:41 building that could possibly be visited by by ourselves in a new sort of gathering of information for in case there is a fire an incident at the property Danny could I ask you to turn up policy 633 lfb quadruple zero one two
01:48:55 up policy 633 lfb quadruple zero one two five six
01:48:56 five six mr. Ricketts I assume you're familiar with this policy is that fair that's correct sir could I ask you Danny to turn to page 19 1 9 within that policy mr. Rickett so
01:49:09 1 9 within that policy mr. Rickett so I'll just let you refresh your memory briefly there okay
01:49:16 now looking at appendix warned can you help us before carrying out a visit would you refresh your memory and look at this list a paragraph 1 of Appendix 1
01:49:27 at this list a paragraph 1 of Appendix 1 of the policy so be honest sir wouldn't my great friends to the appendix just just going on saw like the experience of doing over 750 visits we generally know firefighters generally now watch
01:49:38 firefighters generally now watch officers generally know the kind of risks and their hazards to look out for so generally saw a lot from experience we would ever generally a good idea of what to expect and what information together so you wouldn't use the bullet
01:49:52 together so you wouldn't use the bullet here as a checklist I've never taken out as a checklist okay do you know whether anyone at North can has used this as a checklist for 17 I've never seen anybody
01:50:03 checklist for 17 I've never seen anybody take care of the children what training for example in the two years before the fire had you received in relation to policy six three three so the policy
01:50:15 policy six three three so the policy obviously is there high-rise that two things that look the the fire brigade have installed earnest over the recent years is the importance in training on high-rise buildings and obviously
01:50:26 high-rise buildings and obviously basement fires so obviously we get a lot of training around high-rise buildings when do me some the command exercises the focus is either on basement fires or high-rise incidents and who provides that training to you the respective
01:50:38 that training to you the respective high-rise bad medical have you received any or have you yourself received any training respect of high-rise fires at the station not a station man have you
01:50:49 the station not a station man have you delivered any yes what training have you delivered in relation to six three three but basically leaves around around the policy in the contents at a policy and making sure that operational crews a my
01:51:00 making sure that operational crews a my crew in particular I've already owned no demoted procedures and what to expect when winter I mean to go to a high-rise incident have you ever had need to give training on how to conduct deception 72d
01:51:12 training on how to conduct deception 72d visit sometimes officers underneath make soda crew managers there they might need us or a little bit prompting about what to look for in in you know premises so if they
01:51:23 for in in you know premises so if they were going to a premises that say for example of us familiar with them I say to them look out for a certain a certain risk for certain hazard so and just for the voidance of doubt you wouldn't use appendix warned to assist any prompt to
01:51:35 appendix warned to assist any prompt to a crew manager who's in need of advice I've never made reference to its making
01:51:43 um have you received any training in how to conduct a section seven to D visit no sir
01:51:51 have you received any training in relation to contingency planning relating to high-rise buildings no sir
01:52:00 have you received any planning in relation to fire spread beyond the compartment of origin and the potential for multiple rescues not multiple rescues neither have you received any
01:52:13 rescues neither have you received any training regarding the logistical physical demands on fire personnel conducting search and rescue in the built in a high-rise building where there's been multiple compartment Asian failure so a big question yes who have
01:52:26 failure so a big question yes who have you um have you received any training on the logistical and physical demands on firefighters who are conducting search and rescues and respect on multiple FSGS in the high-rise building no I don't
01:52:37 in the high-rise building no I don't think so sir have you received any training on how to deal with single staircases and high-rise buildings for purposes of firefighting or affecting
01:52:48 purposes of firefighting or affecting rescues and more specifically single staircase use now
01:52:52 could I ask Danny to turn up policy 800 which is at LF be quadruple zero 7:05
01:53:06 whilst waiting for that obviously policy 800 deals of the management of operational risk information is that policy something in relation to which you've received training I don't believe
01:53:17 you've received training I don't believe so now have you given any training on the management of operational risk information might discuss the station
01:53:28 information might discuss the station level no formal training as such so discussed don't put words in your mouth the impression you're giving it was an informal level just the contents of the
01:53:39 informal level just the contents of the policy okay can you help us what role does the station manager have in reviewing the information collated for the purposes of a section 7 2d visit so if folks go out into seven to think with
01:53:51 if folks go out into seven to think with it and record any information on the operational risk database once they information is inputted they're not then I submit for data quality checks and do you know how a station manager ensures
01:54:03 you know how a station manager ensures that the information is correctly entered onto the OID now that okay can you help us to what extent does the information gathered during the course of a section 72 d visit inform the
01:54:16 of a section 72 d visit inform the predetermined Alliance attendance roll
01:54:21 sorry repeat a question does the info - what how does the information gathered during the course of a section 72 d visit inform assessment of the
01:54:32 visit inform assessment of the predetermined attendance the pre pre determines is the attendance that the assessment has already been completed for high rises I would have no input on it could we look paragraph three point
01:54:45 it could we look paragraph three point three within policy 800
01:55:00 now let me just refresh your memory there mr. Ricketts but it's quite a long section it's just three point three point three sir
01:55:29 mr. Ricca smoke looking at the five bullet points there it looks as if the ORD informs the PDA section this is dealt with at the third bullet point is
01:55:40 dealt with at the third bullet point is that your experience that information from the idea is fed through to the PDA so be honest I watched myself submit it completed and submitted it I don't have
01:55:52 completed and submitted it I don't have any input or at all or any notification of it and unless it gets rejected it comes back to my work
01:56:05 could I ask you next some questions about cladding itself what training have you had on the particular dangers of cladding files on high-rise buildings none so were you aware of the Shepherd's
01:56:17 none so were you aware of the Shepherd's caught fire from August 2016 yes sir um what's your understanding of the principle lessons that were learned arising out of shepherds Court I think it was just to be aware of the the
01:56:31 it was just to be aware of the the panels that were involved in in the fire there so as far as I believe there was some point of you VPC panel below the window and the fire breached the compartment and spread up to the sort of
01:56:42 compartment and spread up to the sort of sort of sort of panels enough you VPC windows above it but you receive no specific training on the range of cladding materials that were being applied to high-rise buildings in London
01:56:53 applied to high-rise buildings in London not I can recall so much thank you can you help us looking at uPVC windows to what extent will a section 72 de visite
01:57:05 what extent will a section 72 de visite look at the risk posed by uPVC windows for fire spread for example I wouldn't particularly look at there and see there's there's there's a risk why not
01:57:16 there's there's there's a risk why not let's just incorporated into the building design and now mr. Ricketts can I now turn to Graham for specific questions now as I understand it you had
01:57:28 questions now as I understand it you had your first section some 2d visit in 2017 now could I ask Danny to turn to the Ord itself which is a lfb quadruple zero
01:57:40 itself which is a lfb quadruple zero three double one six
01:57:54 and if I could ask you Danny to amplify the entry for the 15th of February 2017 the dates on the far right hand column
01:58:07 now I think in your witness statements to Ricketts you say that that date it was in fact an error and the correct date of the visit was the 27th of March of 2017 is that correct horikawa is it on the 27th of March siRNAs correct are you able to help us
01:58:20 siRNAs correct are you able to help us with an explanation of the error in relation to the date it's a little bit confusing to be honest survived but I think possibly I might have opened up
01:58:31 think possibly I might have opened up the appointment lifting the station diary it was too busy on the day and I've moved the appointment for some some reason is still shown as it recorded on the 15th of February but I know that not
01:58:42 the 15th of February but I know that not to be the case my vision because one of the firefighters who accompanied me on a visit was on leave on that day so I can be pretty positive that a visit was on the 27th of February thank you that's also confirmed in an email docks in
01:58:54 also confirmed in an email docks in Seward at EMI on the same date confirm you're not gonna visit earlier though now is it right that the purpose of your visit was is set out at page 4 of your witness statement and it's the fifth
01:59:05 witness statement and it's the fifth paragraph from the top and I think waited for you if that helps this was a visit it's a fifth paragraph from the top this was a visit for Cruz and in
01:59:17 top this was a visit for Cruz and in particular offices so that basic information could be gathered and recorded on the operational risk database and a tactical plan drawn up and accessed via the mobile data terminal which is carried on all
01:59:29 terminal which is carried on all frontline operational appliances mr. ekeus if then when I refer to the statement Danny very helpfully Flags it up on the screen so it may be easier for
01:59:40 up on the screen so it may be easier for you to look at it either on the little screen next to you or the big screen by your shoulder okay like now looking at that extract why do you say in particular officers you say
01:59:54 you say in particular officers you say this was a visit for Cruz and in particular officers police officers would be making the decisions if they turn up at an Internet so it's officers who are making the decision to in the formulated plan wick had you
02:00:08 in the formulated plan wick had you visited the tower before no sir not all can record before you attended the tower in on the 27th of March 2017 did you review the Ord yes sir I would have done
02:00:20 review the Ord yes sir I would have done would you have noted any outstanding actions to be honest certain possibly but I can't remember that all noted Ernie I do recall having a conversation
02:00:37 Ernie I do recall having a conversation with other officers in the office before I went about brenell tower I know can you recall did you prompt that conversation nor did they property well as it's come up in the Dory I've asked about Grand Hotel because I'd only been
02:00:49 about Grand Hotel because I'd only been at North facing to him for a few months I'd asked about brain filter or in particular and they told me that the cruiser band saw lots of lots of visits 97 to DBS but saw lots of informal visits to the tower to familiarize
02:01:01 visits to the tower to familiarize themselves with the the construction work that was going on because it was an issue with the dry writer in the movement that the Joyrider now were you aware of the nature and scale of the
02:01:13 aware of the nature and scale of the refurbishment as a result of those conversations with fellow officers I was informed that it was a major refurbishment given the scale of the refurbishment did you was one of the
02:01:24 refurbishment did you was one of the further purposes of the visit to ensure that all the information on the Rd was correct
02:01:33 so be honest so for me it was a familiar ization visit because the size of Newton North Kensington just to get an understanding of the building and the scale and scope of the the actual saw
02:01:44 scale and scope of the the actual saw like the whole estate the Lancaster Wester state but if I might press you given the nature and scale of the refurbishment was the section 7 2 D
02:01:55 refurbishment was the section 7 2 D visit in March 2017 that provided you with an opportunity to review the entire to the OIG didn't it he was corrected it would have done did you view it with that purpose in
02:02:08 did you view it with that purpose in mind or not not to view the entirety of it because it was a big building given what your understanding was of the purpose of the particular visit in March
02:02:20 purpose of the particular visit in March 2017 did you think given the scale of the refurbishment you'd have to book a further section 72 D that reviewed the accuracy of the OID in more detail that
02:02:33 accuracy of the OID in more detail that didn't come into my thoughts or not could I go back to the OID in particular page Warren thanks Danny and if I could
02:02:45 page Warren thanks Danny and if I could looking at the head section under the heading earlier visit comments and it's the fifth entry from the top dated 10th of May 2016
02:03:01 and you'll see there in the left-hand column it says plans are required for MDT now first of all did you notice this entry when you reviewed the RD before
02:03:12 entry when you reviewed the RD before your March visit I can't remember overnighted it certainly if you had noted it would you have sought plans well it says about the image of building added to plans we'll come on to that
02:03:25 added to plans we'll come on to that later but do you think an image of a building is the same as a planned no said I can be different but but off that
02:03:37 said I can be different but but off that I offer it says image the image of building Edie's plans then it's gone through a quality assurance process did you check with mr. Davis as to what he precisely had in mind when he said plans
02:03:49 precisely had in mind when he said plans are required no because it's been accepted by station managers Davis I thought I was acceptable now the second
02:04:00 thought I was acceptable now the second question arising out of that is would it be fair to assume that you didn't check up with the TMO whether they had any plans of the building for the purposes
02:04:12 plans of the building for the purposes the end MDT did you check with the TM oh sorry you said a question again yeah did you check with the TMO whether they had any plans of the building that could
02:04:24 had any plans of the building that could be used for the purposes of the ORD well on the visit obviously identified that it was no premises information box and there was no planes plans available to us if they've been a premises information box and might possibly be
02:04:35 information box and might possibly be able to use those plans and took copies of those plans to to use now what purpose do the plans fill for the purpose of the ORD why do you need them
02:04:48 purpose of the ORD why do you need them well obviously they're part of a tactical plan for the incident commander so to make their decisions on what to do and what type of plan do you require do
02:04:59 and what type of plan do you require do you need floor plans if it all depends what's required but looking at high-rise building okay so I want a simple high-rise building the floor plans are normally to sort are the same as they go
02:05:10 normally to sort are the same as they go up so possibly you could have just had one plan of a floor layout and would that be supplemented with detail that's the flat numbering on each floor as you went up I wouldn't imagine so nice you
02:05:22 went up I wouldn't imagine so nice you know you would have got a floor number in from other sources of information would you require anything as detailed as architectural drawings no now if we
02:05:33 as architectural drawings no now if we could look further on at further entries in the ORD and if I could ask Danny to go to page 4 of the ORD and if I could
02:05:48 go to page 4 of the ORD and if I could look at the top section underneath tactical plan and including operational contingency plan now can you explain to
02:06:00 contingency plan now can you explain to us what you'd expect to find under the heading tactical plan in the ORD everything else was seen underneath the order in the order you're underneath that section okay that's the tactical
02:06:12 that section okay that's the tactical plan
02:06:12 plan so looking at the next heading which is the operational contingency plan the date is the 30th of October 2009 would
02:06:23 date is the 30th of October 2009 would you've expected an updated operation of contingency plan to be in place given the nature and scale of the refurbishment so I think that's just the date when the operational continued claim or started when you had when he
02:06:34 claim or started when you had when he was uploaded onto the overall D would you expect it you see their version worn
02:06:42 that indicates that it wasn't updated thereafter is that a fair reading of that entry not so you're saying there were further versions after the 30th of October 29
02:06:54 versions after the 30th of October 29 2009 everything that's that comes off that out that the the the operational contingency plan is the the on route considerations and the tactical plan which is everything else you covered it
02:07:06 which is everything else you covered it with you know Rd okay could we turn to page 4
02:07:09 page 4 sorry we're on page 4 going further down Nick
02:07:14 Nick if you come out of that and so cannot just add somebody said oh yes if every awardee in entry starts with that operational contingency plan with with a plan name of the name of the building in Advait when it's created on to the OID
02:07:26 Advait when it's created on to the OID there's nothing else to go in their box every about the entry on the four of the guide system starts with it operational contingency plan the demand and the date okay but if it's updated would you expect the version number to be updated
02:07:37 expect the version number to be updated presumably because the the the the the the the plan is a continual plan and then it's updated so it's not been taken off the system of partners again as a new system perhaps if that was the case
02:07:48 new system perhaps if that was the case then maybe it'd be plan number two okay it stays on your it stays on the operational risk database carrying deserves am I right II think it's the station manager who's responsible for what has overall responsible for the ORD
02:08:01 what has overall responsible for the ORD mister station manager that goes through the basic quality process yeah so in a sense he checks that it he checks contagion what it should contain that's correct he or she will check whether it's weather weather contents area with
02:08:13 it's weather weather contents area with the sufficiently adequate maybe that the some of these questions the station manager might be better able to answer the new I'm happy to try to answer it no
02:08:26 the new I'm happy to try to answer it no I'm sure yes because I just don't want you to be put in an unfair position you see thank you yes let's just see if Danny could come out of that particular expansion if we just look under site
02:08:38 expansion if we just look under site details you see site profile the first box hores block of flats of twenty floors were you were able to check whether the identification of twenty
02:08:50 whether the identification of twenty floors was correct or not on your visit no I didn't sir because I was focused in other parts of the building the twenty floors was only explained to me after
02:08:59 me after obviously it was still a building with 23 floors but before the refurbishment building there was 20 it was 20 residential floors starting from the fourth row when you say after do you
02:09:10 fourth row when you say after do you mean after the fire after sorry that so forgive me and so pre de refurbishment there was 20 levels of flooring which started at the full throttle so 23rd
02:09:22 started at the full throttle so 23rd floor was in fact called the 12th 20th floor
02:09:25 floor okay could I Dan if you go out of that expansion and if we go on to the on-site
02:09:36 expansion and if we go on to the on-site actions which i think is over the page an emergency contacts and you see at the bottom of page five the emergency contacts there
02:09:48 contacts there did you ask who should be the specified emergency contacts on your visit now what did neither looked us and did you check whether the for example the
02:09:59 you check whether the for example the actual two identified individuals did you check whether they were permanent employees of the TMI TMO or who they were generally my Athene has always been shown around by a the housing officer she gave me a contact a
02:10:12 housing officer she gave me a contact a compliment slip with the details of the TMI to be fair I should have updated that and put the TMO records on it later
02:10:24 that and put the TMO records on it later under your witness statement you talked about discussions you had to a Nikki Bartholomew and Janis rare about sorting out the premises information box was there one and where was it would you have specified them under the emergency
02:10:36 have specified them under the emergency contacts box or not possibly I mean that they're always useful numbers so that they would have been based on telephone
02:10:48 they would have been based on telephone numbers so obviously if there was news than the June of a time then obviously it over to been context book so that would have been useful okay can you help us when would you expect out-of-date information to be picked up would you expect it to be picked up in
02:11:01 would you expect it to be picked up in individual section 7 2d visits or when no to be fair to the responsible the responsibilities of the conducting officer and the conducting officer would
02:11:12 officer and the conducting officer would be you yes for it so given that you had a limited purpose or your understanding was the focus of the section some 2d visit you had out in March was limited what opportunity would you have to check
02:11:24 what opportunity would you have to check all the information in the OID during the course of that visit did you go through the visit obviously you you pick up points as you go through and then when you get back to the station
02:11:36 then when you get back to the station and you update those records that you and Mendez misses her and on the visit you carried out on the 27th of March can you help us we're in the tower you went okay so the main focus - I thought I
02:11:47 okay so the main focus - I thought I focused on was the basement because they hadn't been identified before in any other previous ORD visits and they haven't been identified in any other one 1d visit records that were held on the station the main focus of my visit I
02:11:58 station the main focus of my visit I thought was important to recognize that there was a big baseman there and so it concentrated that most of my efforts on the basin area one of the points you mentioned in your witness statement its page four and it's the penultimate
02:12:10 page four and it's the penultimate paragraph on that page and you described the fact you identified dry rather than wet Rises it's the penultimate paragraph Danny you
02:12:24 it's the penultimate paragraph Danny you say also notice the Tattler dry write or not a wet riser this surprised me considering the vast renovation works that have been carried out on the tower my later raters point with station manager Davis can you help us why did it
02:12:36 manager Davis can you help us why did it concern you in the first place just just because of a considerable amount of money but obviously been spent on the tower and instead he extended a refurbishment I was and sort of taken a rough guess at the height of the
02:12:47 rough guess at the height of the building I wasn't sure whether it should have been upgraded to a wet riser and whether that was part of building regulation process did you raise the the nature of the riser with either Nikki
02:12:59 nature of the riser with either Nikki Bartholomew or Janice ray can you remember no it took me I never spoke to a Janice ray I need sort of a context at of our email Nikki Bartholomew I spoke to on the date on the 27th of March were
02:13:12 to on the date on the 27th of March were you aware of any advice that the TMO had sought in relation to the nature of the riser to be fitted no sir no and you say I later raised this point station manager Nick Davis can't remember
02:13:24 manager Nick Davis can't remember precisely when you raised it with him I can't remember the exact day it might be Nevada carried out the visit if I remember it was in the inner station office at North Kensington and I asked him about the
02:13:35 him about the that whether it should have been upgraded due to the due to the the the vast works they've been carried carried on their so I did write it with him and said should it should have been upgraded
02:13:46 said should it should have been upgraded to a wet riser um what did he was what was his response he was unsure but he's answered to me I think was something something along the lines of that he must have gone through fire engineering
02:13:57 must have gone through fire engineering so they would be the ones tonight okay did you know whether he did anything further to investigate the position I don't know sir I reckon did you have any concerns regarding the location of the riser inlets let's say
02:14:09 location of the riser inlets let's say they were the far end of the lobbies away from the stairwell there bit of draw rows or outlets I think up in the tail so so is this a Salem I focus more busy was down in the basement okay one
02:14:20 busy was down in the basement okay one of the points you raised in your witness statement is the absence of a premises information box is that right yes correct sir now can you help us what's the purpose of a premises information box perimeters information box will hold risk critical
02:14:32 information box will hold risk critical information which is useful to the fire brigade in a tender so innocent and so you might have details of possibly an evacuation plan in more help details of residents it might hold details of a
02:14:45 residents it might hold details of a thing of putting my statement my hold details of instructions edges a smoke extraction system and it might hold planes to the building in your experience nearly quarter of a century
02:14:57 experience nearly quarter of a century do high-rise residential buildings usually have a premises information box present some do my experience because if before it comes to North Kensington I
02:15:08 before it comes to North Kensington I was based at Fulham was watch manager a at Fulham and how Smith or Fulham from my experience the high-rises I went to the majority of met premises information boxes they have them from my experience
02:15:20 boxes they have them from my experience of going to horrors premises Amazon full of most of them had them and and other prophecies of also because there was a high degree of when I went on visits with in Hampstead Fulham there was there was more premises information boxes to be found so when I went to North
02:15:31 be found so when I went to North Kensington as I said I'd only been here for a short time when I went it's a growth feel of a surprise that there wasn't one somebody accompanying tower blocks around grateful to are such as
02:15:42 blocks around grateful to are such as Stebbins Norland and pointer house in the shadows of Grand Hotel that there also I think 2324 for all buildings they've got premises information box but
02:15:53 they've got premises information box but I managed my hands full dealing with your full of experience first you did with the premises information boxes they're invariably contain evacuation plans I can tell you this away from what
02:16:07 plans I can tell you this away from what you know now of the neighboring blocks to grant for did their prime premises information boxes contain evacuation plan see I can tell you specifics of individual one so okay now please
02:16:20 individual one so okay now please correct me if I'm wrong but is it right you raise the absence of the of the premises information box with Nikki Baath all of you I mentioned it to Nikki Bartholomew even in the housing office and she couldn't help you
02:16:31 and she couldn't help you exactly so yeah and Nikki Pathan we gave you Janice raise telephone number is that right that's correct she wrote a telephone number on a compliment slip which we top retained it's got her
02:16:42 which we top retained it's got her telephone number Janice raised telephone number and our email address and Nikki Bartholomew also got her telephone number and contact details on it as well and were you able to make contact with generated the best of my recollection
02:16:53 generated the best of my recollection within speaks of Janice right when I got back to the fire station I telephoned the number that I was given and I believe I spoke to Adrienne Bowman and what was the upshot of that comma so I'll be perfectly honest the call remember a conversation but would ever
02:17:05 remember a conversation but would ever know best them up it's a miss terminology would have only been about a premise information box is it fair to assume that if you've been told that there was one and its location you would
02:17:16 there was one and its location you would recorded that new idea
02:17:24 if I could ask you to go back to the ORD Danny and its page 4 of the ORD size LFP quadruple 0 3 double 1 6 and page for mister Ricketts you'll see in the very
02:17:36 mister Ricketts you'll see in the very last box at the bottom of this page under Frances information box PIB is there a PIB at this address and the entries is the word false
02:17:47 entries is the word false can you remember did you insert that word I think it was already on on there to be to be fair did you did you give
02:17:59 to be to be fair did you did you give any advice to the team oh that that ought to be a premises information box about the premises given your experience and Fulham for example I mean I'm gonna discussion with Nicky Bartholomew about it but she didn't know much about it at
02:18:10 it but she didn't know much about it at all so I didn't think it was worth worth worth worth pursuing she just saw I said to me the you know the best person to speak to is Janice right did you did you get much further joy for a major improvement for example I got nothing
02:18:22 improvement for example I got nothing back and did you contact Janice ray after you've completed your visit to chase up the issue of the premises information but not regarding the premise information box did you chase
02:18:33 premise information box did you chase her up on other aspects of the section some 2d visit not on the cemetery visit not ok now in relation to the location function of the firefighting lift what
02:18:46 function of the firefighting lift what was your understanding of the nature of the lift that had been installed the ground fall well I was an up-to-date firefighter lift as opposed to a fireman's lift I think it was the alto
02:18:59 fireman's lift I think it was the alto fireman's lift did you entertain for yourself which type of lift it was I didn't know one of my firefighters went to check if he was too busy so they couldn't don't you check the functionality of the lift but I just
02:19:10 functionality of the lift but I just come back and tell me that they were farmers lift controls they're given that you weren't able to character test was the volume of people present in the tower I think it was at lunchtime or thereabouts was this correct in the
02:19:22 thereabouts was this correct in the visit could you test the key to see if firefighter control could be acquired was that would that be well if we if we tested the kaydn then obviously we would have gained control of lift so there's no purpose in doing
02:19:33 of lift so there's no purpose in doing that because it was too many people of him could you have rescheduled a visit for a less busy time when you could have tested that the lift to test willing to be brought under control is possibility
02:19:44 be brought under control is possibility saying and what would normally happen where you've had a high-rise building refurbished you haven't been able to test the the lift to see what we brought under control
02:19:55 under control what would you normally do would you chase up a further section some 2d visit to test all these outstanding masses so be honest so now because quizzer but the volume is seven took the visits that we do it's hard to schedule in a lot
02:20:08 do it's hard to schedule in a lot further seventy visitors I should have asked you that earlier on can you give us an idea of the volume of visits you're required to carry out I don't whether during the week or during a month can you place my desk so I tell
02:20:19 month can you place my desk so I tell you exactly how many digits we got at North Kensington so I wonder we have what's called a master schedule when that details all the 7 mm I see eight sim took the visitor to conduct at North Kensington 25 other high-rise buildings
02:20:32 Kensington 25 other high-rise buildings and how do you prioritize those visits well it depends on the frequency of the visit required and the letter and the level of risk now the next topic going
02:20:46 level of risk now the next topic going back to your statement you say at the final bullet point on page 7 that you'd added comments the idea regarding restricted access and limitation for appliances and appliance access
02:20:59 appliances and appliance access difficulties there could I ask Danny to take us back to the Ord on page 5 of the ORD and looking at the second box from the top under the
02:21:12 the second box from the top under the heading site access
02:21:22 with these the entries you input into the IOT following your visit in March 2017 I believe so I think if I can ask Danny to come out of that expansion and
02:21:35 Danny to come out of that expansion and go down to the third section on that page on route considerations and the first entry there says grant full road is a covered area TL limited for the lay
02:21:49 is a covered area TL limited for the lay people here can you on can you explain what you mean is a covered area TL limited there what the the covered area is the the end of the walk pointed a
02:22:00 is the the end of the walk pointed a finger blobster of the estate and so that the the Holland estate so first white and then the Josue testa turn and
02:22:14 white and then the Josue testa turn and and the other finger blocks they're all linked on the end by by walkway so you drive down but the walkways it's all about covered area so you drive into business so my purpose nursing the
02:22:26 business so my purpose nursing the question was to see whether the detail of your answer is that something that ought to have been inputted in the first entry under on route considerations you say you did know could it or should it
02:22:39 say you did know could it or should it rather should the detail you've just given me have been put to amplify that you senators then do the order of the list of that no just we're just looking
02:22:50 list of that no just we're just looking for the first entry could that entry have been made more detailed with the detail you've just given me in your answer if you overcomplicate the the the
02:23:03 answer if you overcomplicate the the the overall data is too much information to take in but I said that's a quick brief sort of like indication to UM coming to prices or even the seal driver themselves sort of their price commander a turntable a dad that's an indication
02:23:16 a turntable a dad that's an indication straightaway that there could be there could be problems when you were carrying out the section 7 2d visit did you consider where an aerial appliance could be sited safely
02:23:29 I think I'll put somewhere on the other day about the axis could be somewhere else probably sent we examine or if they order if you Dan if you D amplify this
02:23:42 order if you Dan if you D amplify this or you think about the access sections further up I'll let you read that just refresh your memory
02:23:55 okay so
02:24:02 okay perhaps um perhaps I'm getting confused with my with my to a statement don't looking at the level of detail you put into the ORD would you have put
02:24:15 put into the ORD would you have put information such as you could only cite aerials on particular aspects of the tower would you put that level of detail in the in the oid possibly but in it
02:24:27 in the in the oid possibly but in it would be dependent on you know circumstances you might will just be for the officer in charge of the incident the first incident commander to decide that and make that make that plan before
02:24:38 that and make that make that plan before you carried out this section some 2d visit were you aware of any access related issues raised by residents of Grenville tower no sir
02:24:48 the next topic let's discuss we there's a location access to electricity and gas intakes and you say in your statement and may be useful to go back to it page five and it's three paragraphs and from
02:25:01 five and it's three paragraphs and from the bottom of that page you say this the TMO maintenance contractor asked if
02:25:12 TMO maintenance contractor asked if there were any particular areas that i would be interested in seeing are applied by stating that i would very much like to see the service intakes with gas electricity these would be useful is it could be a requirement to isolate these services in the event of a
02:25:23 isolate these services in the event of a fire and can you help us from on the base of your experience why those particular things are priorities that their priorities in any fire not just high-rise fires but any fire at all one
02:25:34 high-rise fires but any fire at all one of one of the one of the first things we try and do is isolate the guest gas and electricity so that so they don't become a hazard to firefighters were so firefighting and so to solve if gas was
02:25:45 firefighting and so to solve if gas was escaping and obviously don't think that the fire more more dangerous are these matters that are so basic you don't require training or you are nonetheless provided training in relation to the dangers or the requirement to locate an
02:25:57 dangers or the requirement to locate an isolate gas electricity i think through our incident command training it's one of the things that's installed in us that we that we look for the you know the service intake center to isolate the gas and electricity at the earliest
02:26:09 gas and electricity at the earliest convenience our firefighters able to isolate gas electricity supply what do you need the assistance of the relevant utility company normally it's just the gas is normally just a shower valve and electricity is just the main fuse again
02:26:22 electricity is just the main fuse again apologies for jumping around documents mr. Ricketts if I could go back to the ORD and page 3 of the ORD the bottom of that page and a hazard summary Thank You
02:26:42 that page and a hazard summary Thank You Dane you see there the OD gives description the location and access on the night of the fire some time has taken to obtain the key wood it was sister to have provided detail regarding
02:26:53 sister to have provided detail regarding the arrangements necessary to obtain the master key there every frontline appliance carries a Gerda master key ok and so you didn't need spell it out can
02:27:05 and so you didn't need spell it out can I ask you to turn to the top of page 6 of your witness statement and it's the first paragraph and you say there that I was further shown the smoke extraction
02:27:16 was further shown the smoke extraction controls the fire alarm panel and it's explained to me how the entry system works with a drop key which releases the main entrance door for 90 seconds now in relation to the smoke extraction
02:27:27 relation to the smoke extraction controls
02:27:27 controls was it the tier Mo's maintenance contractor who showed you those controls it was either the maintenance contracts or it was Nicky Bartholomew explain to us how it works and had you picked up that the LP didn't
02:27:39 and had you picked up that the LP didn't have any instructions regarding the use of those controls I there were none referred to in the Ord what of the door controls yes all the controls of the
02:27:51 controls yes all the controls of the operator took generically about controls for the operation the smoke ventilation system that ok sorry I thought you saw the red ball control apologies I was talking about the smoke extraction control again I think I think
02:28:04 extraction control again I think I think that may be the question in relation to the smoke extraction controls first of all I asked you who told you about it and the next question is had you picked
02:28:15 and the next question is had you picked up the LF b had given had no instructions regarding the use of the smell
02:28:20 smell extraction controls oh no I didn't know that the lfb didn't have any any instructions for it was certainly never a station live or don't know whether the lfp in general had any any any any details of it so far safety might have
02:28:31 details of it so far safety might have been given some instructions about it but would you have expected instructions for use to have being part of the ORD that they're useful if they provide is for us but if not provided for us then
02:28:42 for us but if not provided for us then obviously there's no use operationally if there's smoke extraction systems in place then the first incident command oath if any did you use those all they had been activated then you would call
02:28:53 had been activated then you would call on a fire safety officer to assist you with those those controls did you ask for instructions from the TM o Mason's contract or Nikki Bartholomew I didn't know will you share those ideas
02:29:05 know will you share those ideas optimistically we've been running from bestest ponds around I think I just checked good mr. wickets are you comfortable carrying on or do you need a break now fine sir you're okay thank you thank you thanks
02:29:17 you're okay thank you thank you thanks it we've shown how to use the controls or did you simply note the existence of the smoke extraction controls actually just know the existence of it they okay was any explanation given to you how the
02:29:30 was any explanation given to you how the system worked and its limitations no sir did you ask for such an explanation no sir may ask why you wouldn't press the the TMO for that information well I
02:29:41 the TMO for that information well I didn't press the TMI for that information because there's a level one instant in command at it would be beyond meters or deny us who expects how to use those controls and were always informed
02:29:54 those controls and were always informed if we need to you know use those controls in to request it attended a fire safety adviser to to assist us in those operations okay I'm now going to ask you about the drop key system okay now the ORD noticed and noted and the
02:30:06 now the ORD noticed and noted and the second entry under the heading site access and we can go back to it if if you'd like that the fireman's drop lift key operated the main entrance tour and all internal doors for ninety seconds if
02:30:18 all internal doors for ninety seconds if we go to page five of the our d just so you can see the precise entry
02:30:26 you see site access the second box on the top okay and then the second entry under the heading heading site access
02:30:39 now my question is this is 90 seconds sufficient to allow our crew to access the building yes and it's that a normal time period you've encountered in your experience never encounter that time on
02:30:51 experience never encounter that time on it normally it just opens it so that's the best best benefit to us if I opens for 90 seconds if I can now turn to the assessment of other hazards at the tower
02:31:02 assessment of other hazards at the tower that you identified on your visit to what extent did you consider the likelihood and impact of any fire spread beyond a compartment of origin the likelihood of it for the purposes in
02:31:14 likelihood of it for the purposes in section 7 2d visit did you consider the likelihood and impact of any fire spread beyond the compartment of origin no I didn't consider that no I mean it's always a continued mind that they might
02:31:27 always a continued mind that they might be fire spread you know to possibly the flat above if it breaks out of the compartment then obviously there's a potential for the you know the the flames to rise upwards and catch alight sort of sort of flat above so if it's
02:31:39 sort of sort of flat above so if it's not there's a window open or VPC windows for example there's always that possibility so that's always in your mind and you always plan for those sort of things but didn't nothing specifically out out of the ordinary that we wouldn't normally be planning
02:31:50 that we wouldn't normally be planning and thinking about and the staircase itself you identified that there was a single staircase I was always informative single staircase you know did you inspect the staircase without the staircase now is there a reason why
02:32:02 the staircase now is there a reason why when you're attending a recently refurbished high-rise residential building you didn't go inspect the staircase to check its dimensions etc so all my crews my watch and all the other
02:32:14 all my crews my watch and all the other crews at North Kensington are so familiar with Granville tower once once I've identified that there was the this huge vast basement down underneath which hadn't been picked up on the Ord or anybody had a fire safety record so I
02:32:26 anybody had a fire safety record so I probably saw it on going down to the basement and inspecting the basement so I didn't bother staircase name and presumably be flowing from that you would
02:32:33 would ask the team over confirmation of the precise number of residents and for example those residents who suffered from vulnerability or disability well
02:32:44 from vulnerability or disability well we've regarded a number of residents I think that's already recorded on the our Davis way offshore saying we wouldn't we wouldn't inquire osteen cirrhosis things
02:32:55 wouldn't inquire osteen cirrhosis things did you ask for confirmation of the number of residents in the tower when you carried out your section seven to D no I did not just took you for granted you know what was on the ollidy Danny could ask you to put the Ord back up on
02:33:07 could ask you to put the Ord back up on the screens please in its page for mr. Ricketts if I could ask you to look it's three boxes up from the bottom of the page under the heading communications
02:33:20 page under the heading communications and there there is an entry which says handheld radio good comms and sub-basement channel warned can you explain to us how you satisfy yourself
02:33:32 explain to us how you satisfy yourself that communications are quotes good close quote well what we were doing the visit down down in the basement so my four appliance was parked under the oven
02:33:43 appliance was parked under the oven under a covered walkway so was in constant communication on channel one with the driver of that appliance and you're satisfied they were good as you
02:33:55 you're satisfied they were good as you record there I'd absolutely no communication problems at all thank you and did you test communications up the tower further up the tower as I siphoned out the tail so would you ever test
02:34:09 out the tail so would you ever test communications using a Barry radio headset for example to send a firefighter further off the tower and you remain on Facebook the headsets are on the on the B Isis that's what I mean
02:34:23 on the on the B Isis that's what I mean yeah would you would you views the would you put a firefighter and a be a set with the Barry headset sent him up the tower to test how effective communications were further up okay now
02:34:35 communications were further up okay now the next subject I'd like to discuss with you is updating the ORD can you explain for us what the relationship is between the Ord and the premises risk assessment if it's a
02:34:48 premises risk assessment if it's a question that's better answered by group manager Davis police say say Shawn answer it so the information that we've just been guys for a net document that's the information that should be updated and checked and in in the station diary
02:35:01 and checked and in in the station diary cuz you don't have a box on the top with the the the the link to the premises risk assessment matrix and looking at the factors that are relevant to the
02:35:12 the factors that are relevant to the premises risk assessment clearly how many people are in the building is is a relevant factor would you agree yes sir and would from what you're saying that's not information that you'd ordinarily
02:35:23 not information that you'd ordinarily check on a section some 2d visit is that is that a fair way to summarize your evidence well if there was if there was nothing in it in the operational risk database already then then I would check that and oscillate but it was already a figure in there which we try it was a
02:35:37 figure in there which we try it was a reasonable figure and so you'd assume that would be correct I could calculate guess you know going for going on experience about how many people would be in a tower block I'd say that was a good thing to say there was a good an accurate number would you did
02:35:49 good an accurate number would you did you ask any questions about some building materials that had been used as part of the refurbishment on your visit no that's of matter that would be relevant to the assessment of risk for the purpose of the premises risk
02:36:00 the purpose of the premises risk assessment wouldn't it possibly but to me to be when issues under undergone a major refurbishment I wouldn't have seen that the the
02:36:12 I wouldn't have seen that the the cladding to be to be a risk of bad faith in a building controls process and and hopefully that it wouldn't provide a risk
02:36:25 would you agree that with the general proposition that if the information relevant to a building is not kept updated in the Ord then the premises
02:36:37 updated in the Ord then the premises risk assessment would simply be outdated and inaccurate well it well it's reviewed on completion of the other day so once the are these completed in a station diary then the premises risk
02:36:48 station diary then the premises risk assessment is reviewed but if the OID hasn't looked at all relevant circumstances for example number of people in the building nature of building materials used as part of that
02:36:59 building materials used as part of that building there's a risk of inaccuracy isn't there both in the Ord and in the premises risk assessment I'm not sure what point you're looking at the premises risk assessment were you
02:37:11 premises risk assessment were you involved well just make I think mr. Cooney as point is that if you if you've got information that's missing from the Ord or inaccurate in the Ord it will to
02:37:23 Ord or inaccurate in the Ord it will to that extent render the premises risk assessment defective comment or not okay I wouldn't break our deal with unknowingly that there was missing information no no but if it transpired
02:37:34 information no no but if it transpired that there was something missing or wrong it could affect then it could have soubise and it could could be accuracy of the premises risk assessment could be
02:37:45 of the premises risk assessment could be affected yeah okay I accept that and we would you have had any involvement in compiling entries in compiling information relevant to the premises risk assessment or did you leave that
02:37:56 risk assessment or did you leave that was that the responsibility of is responsibility to what the complaint in watch officer okay and who ultimately is responsible for the content of the premises risk assessment is it a station
02:38:07 premises risk assessment is it a station manager ultimately ultimately star watch officer completing so initial education it was me
02:38:16 could I now turn to a different topic and that's the notice of fire safety deficiencies dated November 2016 and if I could ask Danny to put up document tm0
02:38:29 I could ask Danny to put up document tm0 double zero eight three two one three five
02:38:52 I'm sorry I'll just let you scan that I think well can you read it yes sir yeah thank you all right good i just both said actually if Danny could D amplify
02:39:05 said actually if Danny could D amplify for a moment and just amplify the date which is the 17th of November in the top right hand corner 2016 okay now I think you joined North can divert when 216 is that right that's correct sir and can
02:39:17 that right that's correct sir and can you remember when in November you joined the 3rd of November do you remember I'll let you having mindful of the days I'll ask Danny to reamp Liffe I the substance
02:39:28 ask Danny to reamp Liffe I the substance that letter just so you can refresh your memory so you say refresh my memory oh to read it I should say it's a fair point
02:39:51 takes quite a long letter it is a long letter my first point is a quick one Dumon but have you seen this before no sir
02:39:57 sir fine could I ask you just Dani rather to turn to page 5 and 6 now this is a edge
02:40:10 turn to page 5 and 6 now this is a edge of the fire safety audit observations can you help us where there is a notice of fire safety deficiencies served by what was there now a fee per on an
02:40:21 what was there now a fee per on an individual with the substance of the deficiencies would that be fed into the OID at any stage I've never seen a form a letter but I think that my questions are more general Ward with the
02:40:33 are more general Ward with the information contained in the schedule of fire safety or their observations with that information be fed into the OID at any stage not unless a specific fire safe avoid was the contact you directly
02:40:44 safe avoid was the contact you directly and so give you that information so before you went off on your section 7 2 D visit in March 2017 you are unaware of the content of this schedule is that
02:40:55 of the content of this schedule is that a fair way to summarize your evidence almost give me any information about a Grand Hotel
02:41:05 the final topic for now that I'd like to discuss with you mr. Ricketts is the the aborted training exercise in May 2017 first of all can you help us why was the
02:41:16 first of all can you help us why was the tower chosen for the exercise so it was chosen that because we're always looking for outside venues to practice a lot procedures and and and on the inspection
02:41:27 procedures and and and on the inspection of the the basement of Greenfield Tower and I think identified that it would have been a useful training venue to carry out an exercise I was always asked to carry out a full pump exercise and and look for a venue to carry out there
02:41:40 and look for a venue to carry out there so and was it the lfb who wanted Granville Tower did the TM Oh such as Granville has been a no I chose that you chose it um during the course of your visit on the 27th of March did you meet
02:41:52 visit on the 27th of March did you meet any residents if you remember recent meeting any resident corner remember sir I think the only person that spokes on one of them just to get some directions as to where the housing office was but I didn't speak to anyone in particular
02:42:03 didn't speak to anyone in particular about anything specifically no conversations of anyone in there no sir okay can you remember was a fee payable by the lfb for using Grenville tower for
02:42:16 by the lfb for using Grenville tower for the purposes of a training exercise not on aware of no thank you one question which is arisen is why focus on the basement for the purposes of the exercise as opposed to multiple
02:42:28 of the exercise as opposed to multiple floors for example okay well we said early I wanted you know the two focuses that we thought we trained on these high-rises and basements the basement it was it was quite a fast basement with a
02:42:40 was it was quite a fast basement with a long concrete staircase going down I just thought was an excellent opportunity to carry out some about you know procedures and tests test crews all Argonian so a really difficult situation really difficult sort of IT environment
02:42:52 really difficult sort of IT environment so that's why I chose the basement and given it was a residential building would you wouldn't wouldn't there be an additional benefit to practice drill
02:43:03 additional benefit to practice drill over multiple floors and not just confined to the basement I think there was a previous drill in 2015 I think it was
02:43:13 was a grateful town but I don't get told what exercises are more truthful to carry out I'm just told to carry out for pump exercise not giving instructions by establishing performance teams although
02:43:25 establishing performance teams although that's so that they tell me I have to carry out and leader a four pump exercise so so I gathered information to carry out that four pump exercise and can you remember whether the the
02:43:38 can you remember whether the the exercise that was due to be carried out in May 2017 would it involve read watch or what watch at North Canton it was books for June 2017 and it would have been would have been more watch your
02:43:49 been would have been more watch your watch pretty much sorry the discussions were in May I realized it was booked for the 8th of June but the discussions were in it
02:43:56 in it so is your watch there's mama watch okay so it have been to appliances from my station plus two others from other stations okay now looking at its cancellation it appears if it's canceled bit of a competing tabletop exercise it
02:44:09 bit of a competing tabletop exercise it says is that a fair way of putting it s correct so you have won your scrubs prison and I suppose my blunt question is why does the prison take precedence over the high-rise building after group manager accounts with extra sauce okay
02:44:31 mr. Ricketts you'll be pleased to know that for the moment those are all the questions I I have sir I realize where we're approaching zuv 1:00 o'clock but it might be as if we allow maybe five
02:44:42 it might be as if we allow maybe five minutes from for me to review my position now if there are any supplementals I can put once mr. Ricketts and then he can be released sooner rather than later you'd like to finish our evidence this morning which was tricky I imagine your opinion sir
02:44:53 was tricky I imagine your opinion sir yes well that's got you but well we'll rise until five to one to give mr. Kinnear chance to see us there any more questions and then although it may go take us a little bit beyond our normal
02:45:05 take us a little bit beyond our normal one o'clock stocking time I think we can get you out before lunch all right it was good night to gate with the action out and please don't talk to everyone about your evidence for the rest of the world thank you very much
02:45:22 all right five to one right mister can you thanks it yes
02:52:16 yes was two very brief supplements with your submission
02:52:38 well mr. ekeus I think a few more guests thank you yes this really is your idea yeah first of all if I can go back to access um can you remember whether you checked on your
02:52:50 you remember whether you checked on your visit whether the removable bollards were in fact removable on the access way to grateful talk can you remember I didn't check them so thank you now we
02:53:01 didn't check them so thank you now we were discussing the smoke ventilation system and in your ants you said you'd expect that in the event of an instant please shatter fight sunrises
02:53:12 please shatter fight sunrises incorrectly the instant commander would have or would ask for the assistance of a fire safety officer in terms of the operation is that a fair summary of your evidence first of all rights you will
02:53:23 evidence first of all rights you will that always be the case that a fire safety officer would be required to assist the incident commander operate equipment such as a smoke ventilation system I think I'd be the expectation of an incident commander yes would that be
02:53:36 an incident commander yes would that be your expectation if you were a fewer instant commander at a I think I'd be always in the commander's HBase ocean tank could I ask you a question about the schedule of fire safety deficiencies
02:53:47 the schedule of fire safety deficiencies dated something for November 2016 have you ever seen a similar notice with the schedule before in your career it's just
02:53:58 schedule before in your career it's just the or evidence indicator that perhaps you haven't been I just want to clarify that report looking at the system generally would have you ever
02:54:09 generally would have you ever encountered you may not have seen this schedule itself but have you ever encountered the information contained in a schedule being fed into a section 7 2d visit process
02:54:28 for final questions brief ones in terms of the premises information box did you raise the absence of the PIB with mr. Davis I can't remember to be honest I
02:54:41 Davis I can't remember to be honest I did have a conversation about my visit with mr. Davis that I might have raised it but you'll have to clarify it out with him okay fireman's lift how long would have taken to test the operation of the lift five to ten minutes
02:55:00 would you have been able to carry out a test of the lift later on in the day would you have had the capacity on the 27th of March to come back and test the operation of the lift I don't believe so no so I think I don't have a swimsuit the visit schedule there though third
02:55:14 the visit schedule there though third question in terms of isolating the gas supply how difficult would it have been getting on the face of what you saw in the basement how difficult would have been to have isolated the gas supply what did it involve the process I just
02:55:27 what did it involve the process I just think there was just two big levers there was two two big gas pipes you know saw that maybe sort of eight or ten inch gas pipe so the best of my recollection and it was just two to two great big shuttle fails in your statement you
02:55:41 shuttle fails in your statement you refer to alarm just may be useful if I take you to it you refer to concern about the fire alarm panel
02:55:52 about the fire alarm panel did you ask were you interested in the existence of alarms elsewhere in the building no my expectation was that there the alarms throughout all the properties in the building now tear out all the common areas and again this may
02:56:05 all the common areas and again this may be an obvious question what was the basis of your expectation its legislation Thank You mr. Ricketts you may be relieved to know those are all the questions I have for you the last thing for me is to say thank you very
02:56:17 thing for me is to say thank you very much for attending thank you sir yes and I thank you as well because it's very important to us to hear all the evidence including the evidence about visits to get information so we're very grateful to you for coming to tell us what you
02:56:30 to you for coming to tell us what you were doing and I'm glad to say that we have got to wait by lunch time so if you go with the our show show log off to you thank you so much thank you thank you very much
02:56:47 well that as they say mr. Kinnear is the convenient moment I take it very much sir and the next witness will be group mayor Davis breckwell will rise now and will come back at 2:00 o'clock them makes I'll continue thank you