LFB Station Manager Nicholas Davis gives evidence about operational risk database procedures, section 7(2)(d) visits, and quality assurance processes for Grenfell Tower.
00:00:08 yes mr. Qadir sir michael group manager nicholas davis thank you
00:00:36 I swear by Almighty God I swear by Almighty God now the evidence I still get that the evidence I shall give to be the truth
00:00:45 the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much for stairs yes mr. Kinnaird would you please confirm your name for the record yeah it's Nikolas Robert Davis Thank You
00:00:57 yeah it's Nikolas Robert Davis Thank You mr. Davis thank you also for attending the inquiry gate today to give evidence hopefully in front of you there's a blue file and if you open that blue file behind the first tab that you should find the statement you provide to the
00:01:08 find the statement you provide to the inquiry
00:01:09 inquiry date of the 19th of July of this year is that right that's great have you read it recently yes I have and are there any Corrections you'd like to make to it yes so just at the time of making the statement it would I believed it was
00:01:20 statement it would I believed it was accurate however seeing some evidence given to the inquiry after I gave the statement just spoke earlier about page 2 I believe its paragraph 4 in relation
00:01:31 2 I believe its paragraph 4 in relation to the kerothi assurance in relation to the plans on the ORD that's just slightly incorrect on how I've written it out there and what is the what is the correct evidence you'd wish to get so at
00:01:43 correct evidence you'd wish to get so at the time of making this evidence I've made an assumption that the planes on the MV T or the ORD had actually come through myself in my work q on my station diary however subsequent evidence is indicated that that that
00:01:56 evidence is indicated that that that process didn't happen I never saw the plans automatically will come on to the plans in due course but thank you thank you good measure for that subject to that amendment can you confirm the
00:02:08 that amendment can you confirm the contents your statements are true yes okay and your content for the statement stand as evidence then cross why thank you as I've said to others if any time you feel you need a break please say so that's not a problem
00:02:19 that's not a problem secondly if at any time my question is unclear please say so and I'll try and sort correct any lack of clarity now if I can deal with some preliminary matters first is it right that you are now a
00:02:31 first is it right that you are now a group manager that's correct yeah and when did when were you promoted from station manager to group manager it was a beginning of this year and is it right that you've been employed as a firefighter by the lfb for some 22 years
00:02:43 firefighter by the lfb for some 22 years that's correct and during your career you're a station manager north Kensing that's correct and you say North Kensington included Kensington fire station as it was a twinned station the samurais yes I context some stations are
00:02:56 samurais yes I context some stations are single and other stations are twinned and is it a right to assume that you're no longer the station manager at North Canton less correct just flowing in
00:03:08 Canton less correct just flowing in respect of some of these preliminary questions can you remember when you were first aware in your capacity as the station manager at North can of the refurbishment to Granville town so I believe I'll comp remember the exact
00:03:20 believe I'll comp remember the exact type it was November 2015 when I was promoted in and there was a period of a handover for possibly two weeks with the previous station manager at Daniel Hallisey and he might be aware that the
00:03:32 Hallisey and he might be aware that the there was refurbishment was going on at brimful Tower and he updated me on his processes regarding the watch his familiar ization visits to the tower and did he give you any detail regarding the
00:03:45 did he give you any detail regarding the nature and extent of the refurbishment at the tower yes so he gave me an overall view of his interpretation of the building works he explained the relationship with Janice ray who's our point of contact at the TMO and he
00:03:59 point of contact at the TMO and he explained the process of the crews doing familiar ization visits sort of as as the works progressed and if any works were notified via Janice then that's how
00:04:11 were notified via Janice then that's how we would be fed inform myself into the crews and then they would then go revisit the tower to confirm any changes or adjustments to the building works did he discuss with you or did you raise
00:04:22 he discuss with you or did you raise with him the need for a comprehensive review of that her once the refurbishment was complete or near complete yes so part of the process my understanding was that the crews would
00:04:33 understanding was that the crews would do familiarization visits the 70d process or Ord would only be updated as changes became apparent because of the the the frequency of the visits from the crews it would just be logistically too
00:04:45 crews it would just be logistically too hard and too time-consuming that accrues to update that every time they went unless there was a change to be updated on system
00:04:52 on system I suppose flowing from that it was the answer no to my question yeah being blunt about it did you ever discuss how bottom-to-top review of gran filter in
00:05:03 bottom-to-top review of gran filter in order to update a collection with station manager had to see however I must admit personally that would would have lost my mind that that would be something to be done following all the creation works and any updates to be
00:05:14 creation works and any updates to be tidied up was there any discussion with your predecessor of the building materials that had been used as part of the refurbishment and here I'm particularly interested in cladding so
00:05:25 particularly interested in cladding so there was a reference to cladding been used as part of the refurbishment that was one part of the refurbishment there was several stages to the in essence the lower three floors been converted and
00:05:36 lower three floors been converted and there was reference made to that there was reference made to the dry rising main being adjusted to so plating was referenced as well a number of other factors as well now I appreciate this
00:05:47 factors as well now I appreciate this conversation happened in November 2015 yeah to what extent are you able to give us any detail regarding the briefing that you were given by your predecessor regarding the cladding so I can't give
00:06:01 regarding the cladding so I can't give you the detail if I want us I can't recollected II I know that plating was referenced by him as a number of other issues were now just to confirm just so
00:06:12 issues were now just to confirm just so we have context is it right say that you were much manager Ricketts line manager at North County that's correct yeah now the next set of questions I'd like to talk to you about is your role as
00:06:23 talk to you about is your role as station manager what involves now pages 1 2 of your witness statement you you set this out but you specifically say it includes quotes managing or manage the
00:06:34 includes quotes managing or manage the performance of teams and individuals to achieve objectives is that is that right yes so that's quite a generic statement but it covers a multitude of performance issues so that may be attendance it may
00:06:46 issues so that may be attendance it may be a tennis of ice it could be training could be CFS we have a number of indicators that we measure and how effective and the amount of work that the watches and crews do
00:06:57 of work that the watches and crews do each fire station not just obviously North Kensington and looking with particular focus on section 7 2d visits is it right that as you set out at the second bullet point at the top of page
00:07:09 second bullet point at the top of page tubules
00:07:10 tubules and the purpose is to ensure just quotes to ensure that watches are recording the appropriate sort of information in an appropriate way that's correct now we'll look at the precise policy 633
00:07:24 now we'll look at the precise policy 633 in due course but could you give us a steer as to what your understanding is of the purpose of section 72 d so there's several purpose of the 70d
00:07:36 there's several purpose of the 70d primarily it's the recording of risk for a premise so as an example for I think been referenced before there's around 80 70 D premises on north kinnison's ground
00:07:49 70 D premises on north kinnison's ground so if you times that by 2 you've got 180 that I'm responsible for overall at both stations that is to Callay my understanding is any risk that
00:08:02 Callay my understanding is any risk that you would not expect to find a premise is one of the things that we're aware of so an example at the Train and I had many years ago was if we had a garage
00:08:13 many years ago was if we had a garage workshop we would expect to find a cylinder acetylene cylinder a carriage workshop so that would indicate that that didn't need to go on an hour bakes that was a known risk to us that was initially how it was developed and it
00:08:24 initially how it was developed and it since progressed with the PRI sort of premise risk assessment is the tool that we use to determine if a premise was to go on the Ord ok looking at with section
00:08:37 go on the Ord ok looking at with section 72 D and how that informs the ORD yeah could I ask you to turn to page 2 of your witness statement and halfway down the second page there's a title my role if any in section 7 2d visits and then
00:08:50 if any in section 7 2d visits and then there's a large paragraph immediately below that yeah the last four lines of that large introductory paragraph you say this you get information from the section 7 to diva's then you say I would
00:09:02 section 7 to diva's then you say I would then forward this information on to crews who would rather you'd receive information I would then forward this information on to crews who would visit Granville Tower to familiarize themselves with changes an update they
00:09:13 themselves with changes an update they Ord if appropriate I would then check the information was recalled
00:09:17 recalled correctly on the RD before this information was finally checked by LF B's predetermined allowance team now could you help us with each stage of
00:09:28 could you help us with each stage of that first of all how would you check the information that was provided to you by your crews following that familiarize ation visit so just a bit of context I
00:09:39 ation visit so just a bit of context I think what I'm referencing there is information from the TM oh right well so is it specific to the TM o then oh I believe I'm referencing yes it's not
00:09:50 believe I'm referencing yes it's not clear that's what I'm that's what I'm meaning in that statement so let's deal with its deal well let's deal with the information from the tier mo first you've got information coming through from the crews how would you check that that information provided by your crews
00:10:01 that information provided by your crews was correct so I would as professional fire officers having performed that role myself if an officer did a familiarization visit to grenfell they
00:10:14 familiarization visit to grenfell they would my expectation as the ORD would be updated if appropriate that would come through to my work you however generally we would have a conversation as well so the fire officer in passing in the
00:10:26 the fire officer in passing in the office within a governor by the way I've visited grenfell the other week we've seen the smoke extraction sit or whatever the issue may be or it might even be that we visited the other week and there's no changes and it's exactly
00:10:38 and there's no changes and it's exactly the same so there would be several ways to be a verbal update I would have confidence in my officers as professional officers it's not my role to double-check what they're telling me
00:10:49 to double-check what they're telling me if that makes sense so I'm not going to go out and revisit Grenville to confirm that someone's telling me the truth there's a professional fire officer I would take their word for that so looking at the when we refer to this
00:11:01 looking at the when we refer to this earlier looking at the Quality Assurance yongsan that you performed a station manager so we understand how you discharge that one who was by means of these informal discussions which you've
00:11:12 these informal discussions which you've just yet discussed was there a formal element by which you carried out that Quality Assurance on the information your crews brought back to you yeah so there's several stages so the in
00:11:25 so there's several stages so the in essence the formal one relating to the work queue station diary yeah so it would appear in my stationed diarrhea my work you as an appointment to be chased as would be the PRA the PRA would appear first
00:11:39 the PRA the PRA would appear first before the Ord and there's a reason for that so the PRA again I'm not to check the questions that have been answered within that my job as the station manager is to look at the score that
00:11:51 manager is to look at the score that that generates and if appropriate it may be that if it's caused under 150 that it would be removed from the Rd however I would not do that purely on a score that
00:12:02 would not do that purely on a score that would be me speaking with the watch officer who attended I'm having a conversation so I'd ask questions although it's scores below on fifty years there any reason as an operational officer that you feel would warrant
00:12:13 officer that you feel would warrant being on the Ord so I would expect that to be as a officer on the MDT coming on to so the local stations should be familiar with grenfell when I'm all watches were but if a neighboring
00:12:26 watches were but if a neighboring station so say Paddington attended Greenfield without North Kensington crews been there that they could access information on the Ord they actually don't have enough time so pull up the
00:12:38 don't have enough time so pull up the entirety of the MDC so it may be a cursory look at a geography of met so they're happy with the location and their route onto site within that map also would be hydrants so alohagypsies
00:12:50 also would be hydrants so alohagypsies will come on to that detail later as those I understand why you want to get on now my questions were directed towards how you discharge the Quality Assurance the auction and respective information coming directly from the TMO
00:13:02 information coming directly from the TMO is that process both its formal and informal aspects different to the process you'd adopt in relation to information coming via section 7 2 d visits would it be the same so if I
00:13:13 visits would it be the same so if I understand what is there a difference between the TMO information and cruise information yeah you true the distinction yeah yeah ok so what I'm trying to find out is whether you treated the information coming from your crews differently from the information
00:13:25 crews differently from the information you got body the TM oh yes so all would want confirmation as Professional Firefighters that the information on getting from the tier mo urban say is accurate but what impact does that have
00:13:36 accurate but what impact does that have as Professional Firefighters if we attend in that premise would that impact our offering tactics oh it's not the teemo's job to tell us what impact that's going to have on our
00:13:47 what impact that's going to have on our tactics it's us as professional firefighters to make a judgment on that information thank you and just looking at the final element of that quoted part you say the information finally checked by LF B's predetermined attendance team
00:13:59 by LF B's predetermined attendance team yeah now first of all is that predetermined attendance team based at North Ken or is it based more centrally so that's a central office so I don't know if it would help to explain the
00:14:10 know if it would help to explain the process of the ORP and how the different stages of quality I think it would so as we've already mentioned that PRA is I would suggest the initial process of determining how often premise gets
00:14:22 of determining how often premise gets visited the ORD is then completed by the watch officers that then feeds in having completed that visit both the ORD and
00:14:33 completed that visit both the ORD and the PRA appear in my work you it's then up to me my process would be to look at the PRA first that would determine if the premise goes on the Ord and the
00:14:44 the premise goes on the Ord and the frequency of physics I then clear that off my work you and then move on to the Ord part of the work you are then review that the Ord from there if it's rejected
00:15:00 that the Ord from there if it's rejected for whatever reason I may not I might actually just want to be a clarification over a bit of information so I would then reject that item or the work queue the Ord that would then force it back to
00:15:11 the Ord that would then force it back to the original watch officer who completed it
00:15:13 it nine times out of ten that would be followed up with Arthur earning email or a phone conversation to put a detail in a bit of context around the comment that I've entered on the system could then
00:15:24 I've entered on the system could then come back or finally after me it then goes for a final check of PDA which we call predetermined attendance which is based at Union Street and headquarters and that's the final checks and balance
00:15:35 and that's the final checks and balance for the process and when you say the information is finally checked by a LF B's predetermined attendance team yeah presumably they're not second-guessing the information that's been fed up to
00:15:47 the information that's been fed up to them is that a fair assumption yes I think the advantage you would have to speak to them to get the I don't know what their process for QA is if I'm honest
00:15:55 honest for worked in there however I would imagine as essential base team they have the benefit of seeing pain London so there may be some historical information that they've seen as a benefit
00:16:06 that they've seen as a benefit historically around London that as a station manager that North Kensington in case of almond will be aware of and again it could be rejected the same process would come back to myself normally followed up by an email or a
00:16:17 normally followed up by an email or a phone call just to get a bit of context about why it's being rejected back to me thank you miss Davis the next topic I'd like to discuss with use policies themselves yeah and now presumably you're familiar with policy
00:16:29 presumably you're familiar with policy 633 yeah now can you help us as to when in the two years before Graham thought when you were last trained in the detail of 633 so I think it's been mentioned
00:16:41 of 633 so I think it's been mentioned several times before previous people we have a yearly ops assessment as a senior officer I would have to refer to my ITR so to give you the exact dates but it's certainly yearly I have an ops
00:16:52 certainly yearly I have an ops assessment I would have been assessed on promotion rounds and a general theme has been I know it's been said before it's always generally a theme around high-rise efficacy course or a basement
00:17:05 high-rise efficacy course or a basement has been mentioned earlier I think okay and have you ever received any particular training on how to first of all conduct seven 2d visits and then
00:17:17 all conduct seven 2d visits and then secondly the QA role that a station manager has to perform okay so I have the benefit of being before the OID came into fruition and onto the electronic
00:17:30 into fruition and onto the electronic version so as they were then one one DS I had initial training a training school when I joined 22 years ago about the points to look for how you speaks of
00:17:41 points to look for how you speaks of residents making sure they've got escape plans there was a checklist in effect very similar to how the policy has it now as we move through the process I had updates from line managers so generally
00:17:53 updates from line managers so generally as a crew or watch manager that would be input from my vein station manager at my different stations where I've served I remember getting input from the Cinch sorry the area fire safety team so each
00:18:07 sorry the area fire safety team so each area has their own between fire safety team and I remember at certain periods for my career getting an update from them I was what I would say is common is that I've sometimes had
00:18:18 say is common is that I've sometimes had subjective trying to there's no formal training laid down that I've received it's always been from superior line manager and they would say there's being a change to the Ord process and I
00:18:30 a change to the Ord process and I certainly remember with the development of the current system with the Ord that that was an ongoing process so the process we see now wasn't the one that we had it very start it as it comes in
00:18:41 we had it very start it as it comes in it develops and they make additions to hopefully make it work better have you provided any training or did you provide any training during your time at North cam to your crews on how to carry out a
00:18:53 cam to your crews on how to carry out a section 72 d visit so not to my crews so specifically the all for watch managers at North Cain were what we would call substantive so they weren't on development if they were on development
00:19:04 development if they were on development then that would be part of my assessment process for them that we would cover how they would do and how would they complete and how would they record 77 2d process and the ORD i did part of the
00:19:17 process and the ORD i did part of the process of the station manager is to perform a role of QA Quality Assurance at the station we have four areas that we cover QA for to my recollection
00:19:29 we cover QA for to my recollection covers the ORD and for safety what that would be involved with whoever the watch was on duty at that time I would sit down with the watch officer I would actually ask them to sample from the Ord
00:19:41 actually ask them to sample from the Ord database so that in effect pull that up we would sit in front of their computer screen to discuss the Ord talk through the different sections of the Ord our den part of my person one I would get a
00:19:53 den part of my person one I would get a member of the crew to print off a copy of the Ord for the MDT so I think it's probably worth mentioning that sometimes the documents you see printed off as the
00:20:04 the documents you see printed off as the Ord from a pcs can different to how the format is on the MDT but the information is the same it's the same but it's laid out differently so an example would be
00:20:15 out differently so an example would be the map or the plans so you'll come on to that service though if we can just deal with training just deal with one point what training do you see even the two previous years before ground fall in respect of policy eight
00:20:27 ground fall in respect of policy eight hundreds of the management of operational risk information so for me personally obviously no training in managing that note there's a station chat or opening as a station manager not okay could I ask you now to turn to
00:20:44 okay could I ask you now to turn to policy 633 and it's the reference danny's lfb quadruple zero one two five six and if I could ask Danny to turn to
00:20:55 six and if I could ask Danny to turn to page seven and paragraph four point warned and down if you could amplify four point one I'll just let you read that
00:21:11 mr. Davis you said you hadn't received any training respect of policy 800 are you familiar with policy 8 honey and so do you feel that you'd be able to
00:21:23 and so do you feel that you'd be able to quality assur information gathered and recorded in accordance with the provisions of policy 800 so firm us from my personal view as a operational watch
00:21:34 my personal view as a operational watch manager where I've been out on visits myself where I've been quality assured myself from previous line managers I felt comfortable - quality is short we'll see a hundred yes when you're
00:21:46 we'll see a hundred yes when you're discharging that quality assurance function as station manager during your time at North can did you feel at any time any general concerns regarding the adequacy of the information that was being collected and sought to be put
00:21:58 being collected and sought to be put into the ORD so it's put into context I started as we discussed in November 2015 so the Ord database was already there
00:22:10 so the Ord database was already there had already been in visited by a number of previous crews have already been quality assured by a number of previous officers as I went through the process I
00:22:21 officers as I went through the process I noticed the maps needed I wouldn't say all of them because the the volume of work that we have as a station manager I didn't have the luxury to go through all
00:22:32 didn't have the luxury to go through all 187 to ds2 individually quality assure them it would be as we were going through that process as they arrived through my work you I would then go through the Ord itself to put into
00:22:44 through the Ord itself to put into context for the crews that visited the the we had a number of IT issues with maps in relation to loading up maps so I think to put into context a architects
00:22:55 think to put into context a architects map would not be compatible with our Rd system it physically would not fit on the OID system the solids to interrupt yesterday was my question was during your time as station manager yeah did
00:23:07 your time as station manager yeah did you have any concerns general concerns regarding the adequacy of the information that was being collected by your crews and sought to be put onto the Ord no no general
00:23:18 Ord no no general now going back to policy 633 if I could ask Danny to amplify paragraph 4.3 you
00:23:32 ask Danny to amplify paragraph 4.3 you see under the heading planning says simple line drawings identifying individual compartments or flat numbers associated with floor levels will assist prioritizing rescue operations this is
00:23:43 prioritizing rescue operations this is of particular importance where multiple compartments over many levels may be affected by fire or smoke some residential flats have emergency exits which should be recorded and first of
00:23:55 which should be recorded and first of all can we take it you're familiar with that provisions really yeah now in relation to high-rise buildings on your patch at North Karen how often was that
00:24:08 patch at North Karen how often was that requirement complied with in relation to the information you saw on the Ord it would be very hard for me to give you an exact number what I can say is there was occasions where it was it was occasion
00:24:20 occasions where it was it was occasion where it wasn't all there was a case where it needed justing so it probably wasn't sufficient for the MDT to be printed off so I'm afraid I can't give you an exact number would you have expected the plans to be provided by the
00:24:33 expected the plans to be provided by the building owner for these purposes what I can say is my experiences are watch officer because in essence it's their role to provide the client's plans and
00:24:46 role to provide the client's plans and upload them on the system this can be particularly difficult so it may be as it says we need simple line drawings to actually get a simple line drawing or
00:24:57 actually get a simple line drawing or floor layout that would have the relevant information for us and the Ord is actually quite tricky to get so most what are the difficulties then so you would ask for a map layout from the
00:25:10 would ask for a map layout from the responsible person for the building general speaking they would have an architectural plan that's that's just no benefit to us for the Ord it doesn't work it has too much detail it doesn't
00:25:22 work it has too much detail it doesn't fit on the system so in effect we're asking them to simplify that for us to put it on the system or we try to simplify
00:25:30 simplify ourselves which I'm afraid I'm not an IT expert on online drawing of maps so I've personally found that quite difficult to do is watch officer would as a watch manager would you looking at the
00:25:44 manager would you looking at the differently what problems would there be if a watch commander is simply asked during the course of a section 7 2d visit us the the responsible person or its representative could I have simple
00:25:56 its representative could I have simple line drawings identifying individual compartments etc there's nothing stopping them doing that is there no and the expectation is that they would know it's lanes if plants were required yeah and what you say if plans were required
00:26:08 and what you say if plans were required can we take it that in relation to a high-rise residential building plans would be required absolutely yeah sorry I think up what I meant was if they weren't on a system already okay yeah now if I could ask Danny to turn
00:26:22 yeah now if I could ask Danny to turn there to paragraph four point six
00:26:30 says they're planning must consider the knowledge and understanding of fixed installations and how they can assist fire and rescue operations where required advice and guidance should be obtained from fire safety officers
00:26:41 obtained from fire safety officers regarding fixed installations provided such as sprinklers ventilation systems including manual overrides and rising mains FSA's can be invited to familiarize ation visits now stopping
00:26:54 familiarize ation visits now stopping there would your would your understanding of 6:33 mean that fixed installations includes cladding systems
00:27:05 whereas here there was a smoke ventilation system would you four would you have expected the what manager who's carrying at the section seven 2d visit to have brought along with him a fire
00:27:18 to have brought along with him a fire safety officer to assist on identifying have first of all what fixed installations there were in the building and secondly how to use them that would be the ideal I think in context of fire
00:27:30 be the ideal I think in context of fire safety team a very very busy so it may be that you they would have to attend without the fire safety officer the ideal would be that they would attend with you I think especially if it's a complex system that would be the ideal
00:27:45 complex system that would be the ideal yes
00:27:46 yes is there any scheme whereby the attendants of first safety officers is prioritized so in essence to what the watch officer would either ask directly or come through the station manager
00:27:58 or come through the station manager there's I would ask are cannot on their behalf how they prioritize their work we would give them an indication of why we wanted them and then they would either answer yes or no my experience if they could attend would with the fact that
00:28:11 could attend would with the fact that you were dealing with a smoke ventilation system and a high-rise residential building would that be a priority to attract the attendants of a fire safety officer for the purposes of a section 70d visit I can answer on
00:28:24 a section 70d visit I can answer on their behalf so I mean in your experience as a watch manager I think it's rust cost we've asked would show that we would like them there I suppose put pressing you on this with the sheer fact
00:28:36 pressing you on this with the sheer fact that it was a high-rise residential building would that be a priority in itself for a watch manager to say listen I want a fire safety officer here to assist me review the fixed installations on its own as a high-rise wouldn't make
00:28:48 on its own as a high-rise wouldn't make it we would assess all the risk that the building it wouldn't just be because it was Hamas what particular factors would heighten the risk that would justify the attendance of an F so things like a
00:28:59 attendance of an F so things like a complex layout so I think they discussed that earlier I'm evidence that a scissor layout particularly complicated smoke extraction system there could be a
00:29:10 extraction system there could be a number of I would say concerns but clarification that you would like from a suitably qualified officer to make sure that the information you give or he's given is accurate and would would a
00:29:23 given is accurate and would would a significant number of residents with vulnerabilities or disabilities raise the risk profile thereby justifying the need for a fire safety officer to attend section some 2d visits so you would
00:29:34 section some 2d visits so you would certainly have to make allowance in that report your consideration Thank You Danny could I now turn to Appendix one of policy 633 which is an internal page
00:29:45 of policy 633 which is an internal page 19 group matter I suspect you're well familiar over this appendix now in your
00:29:58 familiar over this appendix now in your experience would you expect your crews to use paragraph 1 of Appendix 1 as a checklist for the purposes of conducting a section 7 2d visit so unnecessary
00:30:09 a section 7 2d visit so unnecessary wouldn't expect then to as an example print that off and take them with them I certainly wouldn't expect crews to to do that the amount of visits that the crews do they should be very familiar with
00:30:20 do they should be very familiar with that list in my experience and how would you expect crews to record the information they're provided with during the course of a section 7 2d visit so
00:30:31 the course of a section 7 2d visit so it's not laid down for me personally I would prints off the awardee and manually write on any man I would use that as a checklist also as a as a right can we just check is that smoke
00:30:43 can we just check is that smoke extraction system still the same has it been upgraded it would list in essence the stuff that was there previously that I can double-check and also if there's been any alterations okay thank you if we can now turn to
00:30:56 okay thank you if we can now turn to policy 800 and Danny the references lfb Quinn tuple zero seven zero five that's
00:31:07 Quinn tuple zero seven zero five that's the policy you said you were familiar with the earlier on if we could turn to internal page 2 and section 3 on that page and there at the bottom
00:31:18 page and there at the bottom Grimaldi you've got a section 3 the gathering operational risk information and it identifies five stages the latter two overleaf if I could have asked Danny
00:31:30 two overleaf if I could have asked Danny to go to that fifth stage at the top of page three and it says there the that could be amplified the OID is linked to
00:31:43 could be amplified the OID is linked to the station diary will be completed updated for each scheduled diary visit now does that's the five stage process reflect the process you had in place at North can during your time as station
00:31:55 North can during your time as station manager can I ask you this the wording of these policies yep gives me at least the impression that the section 7 2d
00:32:10 the impression that the section 7 2d obligation was entirely performed by sending crews to inspect the premises is that your understanding or that there
00:32:21 that your understanding or that there was might help in the context of the process and when how it had the database came into being as it were when we had the paper trails that have been
00:32:32 the paper trails that have been discussed earlier in essence the operational risk database was created it had no electronic data on it apart from an appointment that then we used the station diary to program that
00:32:43 station diary to program that appointment as time progressed the information from paper got transposed so I think there's been reference made to the contingency plan 2009 that in
00:32:54 the contingency plan 2009 that in essence is when the electronic version was created for info so that's just giving you an indication of the that the Ord for Grenfell was created there will be a period of time and I
00:33:05 there will be a period of time and I wouldn't know when that was when the information got transposed onto the electronic version we went for a period of everyone uploaded all the risks as we
00:33:16 of everyone uploaded all the risks as we discussed about the garage with a known risk we didn't got told to remove some of the risk because we put too many on the Ord and the database couldn't cope with that much information so then we
00:33:27 with that much information so then we had a period of time where those that were on in essence were being revisited and there was a period of time where we had to revisit them and that was generally down to as was discussed
00:33:39 generally down to as was discussed earlier if local crews knowledge direction from the station manager if they knew their ground from your area that could come around and maybe give you there was some updates that came out regarding trying to prioritize high-rise
00:33:52 regarding trying to prioritize high-rise vulnerable people residential care homes I couldn't give you the date on that there was different inputs that helped us prioritize that risk and get the database back up to date what I was
00:34:03 database back up to date what I was thinking of was how do you get the information that the database requires yeah and is it your understanding that is only obtained by visits of crews to
00:34:15 is only obtained by visits of crews to the price is concerned or so that could come is there a role for example for the station manager yeah definitely so it could be a new premise so it would come sometimes frequently fire-safety would
00:34:28 sometimes frequently fire-safety would send me an e-mail as a station manager to notify me that there's a new building that would involve me sending crews down to do an inspection so this wouldn't be a seven to date it would be to have a
00:34:39 a seven to date it would be to have a look this is a building site get some information as they'll come back say governor there's a high-rise building going up its own so the axis is going to be this right okay how long are we going to be looking before it's ready for an
00:34:51 to be looking before it's ready for an inspection so that's one of my it could be following a home fire safety visit could be following a fire building it could be certain periods that crews would interact all the information would
00:35:02 would interact all the information would come to us from another source it might be a safeguarding roofer there's a number of avenues that could come to us the Ord would also the call Sandesh so medical cylinders so that
00:35:15 Sandesh so medical cylinders so that would that could come from a heart home fire safety visit so the crews can create their own premise it doesn't have to be me as the station manager so if they well it can be honored what what
00:35:26 they well it can be honored what what had prompted my question was that maybe we're going to come back to this but since I started I again pursue floor plans yeah crew can obviously ask the responsible
00:35:38 crew can obviously ask the responsible person for floor plan I can't and may or may not get them but is there any reason why the station manager shouldn't take the initiative and write straight to the building owner and say we need the floor plan yeah certainly if I can and I'm
00:35:50 plan yeah certainly if I can and I'm aware of it that would come up in the process of quality assurance then I would myself can apply pressure but sometimes the station manager may formally write to them I may go through military fire safety if I feel that that
00:36:03 military fire safety if I feel that that there's another reason that I might be able to request them there's no reason why we couldn't generally we do get them it just takes a bit of time to get them you know it's more we may come on to as
00:36:16 you know it's more we may come on to as later on mister could we go back to 800 and if I could also just to take down this amplified section and then put up
00:36:28 this amplified section and then put up paragraphs 3 point 3 to 3.5 and looking at the last bullet point again it sets out the various time frames in three
00:36:40 out the various time frames in three point three is to completion of each stage and the final bullet point under three point three is station manager to review tactical plan now do you accept that's that that's a process you would
00:36:52 that's that that's a process you would have discharged at North Ken when reviewing the the OIG in relation to ground form so in relation to 16 days well no just first of all looking at the yeah ignore the times yeah definitely
00:37:03 yeah ignore the times yeah definitely reviewing the tactical plan yes and if we can go on to three point four and three point five again the primary purpose the audience will call significant hazards risks including any less obvious hazards and unique control
00:37:15 less obvious hazards and unique control measures in place as well as well as any particular tactical plans or command and control procedures required would you agree that would you agree with that summary of the puppet the primary purpose there Rd absolutely I think I alluded that
00:37:27 absolutely I think I alluded that earlier didn't I you did and just just and then going on fine it's three point five or risk critical information refer to the MDT and must be available for the appliance commander and crews to access
00:37:39 appliance commander and crews to access on route this information will support the safe management enhances a successful resolution of the incident again from what you said previously I seem that so statement of principle you did endorse yes the thing now what
00:37:51 did endorse yes the thing now what training did you provide to your crews at North can own the importance of gathering the significant hazard and risks including the less obvious hazards and unique control measures for the
00:38:03 and unique control measures for the purposes of the Ord looking at three point five what training did you give to your crews in relation to the importance
00:38:14 your crews in relation to the importance of risk critical information can you give us an explanation as to why in your capacity station manager you didn't provide your crews with training on
00:38:26 provide your crews with training on those two what appear to be very important aspects of the OIG function yeah so if in my role as the station managers not to provide training for crews at the station that that's down to
00:38:38 crews at the station that that's down to the station the watch officers to allocate their training their training programs that they adhere to and part of the process would be within a training program you look at the risks within
00:38:50 program you look at the risks within your station ground and I know from experience that all four watches had high rise and seven 2ds within their training program that they adopted it's not my role to deliver training to the
00:39:02 not my role to deliver training to the watch however what I will say is if during reviewing a ORD that there was a significant I've missed the point completely then that is my role actually
00:39:14 completely then that is my role actually that's my role to quality ashore and go through the process with the individual as I said I for substantive watch managers and North Canaan experienced officers spoke to Dean earlier I had no
00:39:26 officers spoke to Dean earlier I had no opportunity no reason to sit down and go through that process with the I will DS the came through my work you thank you and could I turn to a separate
00:39:38 thank you and could I turn to a separate topic for the moment that's the statuary notice which I don't know whether you were following this morning's evidence reference TMO double zero eight three two one three five
00:40:04 my first question mr. Davis's have you seen this letter before I have yes yes and can you remember when you first saw this letter well I think I believe I was shown it by my group manager at the time
00:40:16 shown it by my group manager at the time Rob Davis it was in relation if my memory was I'm sorry don't it just really large yeah
00:40:37 sorry I may be mistaken I thought this was a letter related to a day at our so I don't believe I've seen this specific letter that were relating to Greenville okay sorry don't worry if we can go to
00:40:49 okay sorry don't worry if we can go to internal page five I'll let you just read skim read the defit of the
00:41:01 read skim read the defit of the observations run made and having skim read that does that jog any memory in relation to grandfather as opposed to a dare
00:41:16 I don't recall seeing that it's not to say I haven't seen it but I don't recall seeing that letter as a matter of course would statutory notices in relation to a
00:41:29 would statutory notices in relation to a building within your patch would that be would they be sent to you as a matter of course so you knew what issues have been identified I would certainly be aware of them they would certainly come up in the meetings with the TMO that I attend so
00:41:43 meetings with the TMO that I attend so it may be that I am aware of it I just can't recall seeing it looking at say for example the article 17 one the first one at the time the audit you're not
00:41:54 one at the time the audit you're not sure the suitable system maintenance was in place it was found that several of the fire doors protecting your escape staircase did not close fully into their frame would that be information that you'd ordinarily feed through to the Ord
00:42:07 you'd ordinarily feed through to the Ord no so without check and I would have to clarify but this appears to me that this is following a of regulatory fire safety inspection be not not an inspection by
00:42:19 inspection be not not an inspection by crews but I suppose my question is should this information give them the issues that covers be fed through into the Ord process not necessarily not and why do you say that that amount of
00:42:31 why do you say that that amount of detail we just haven't got the capacity to put that on the system it would be important information that crews should be aware of but that would be local
00:42:42 be aware of but that would be local crews there was no to my knowledge an area within the our data to accommodate that level of detail okay now going to turn onto the operational risk database
00:42:54 turn onto the operational risk database itself yeah before we do Danny could I ask you to bring up document lfb quadruple zero three double one four and the second page of that document
00:43:17 now mr. Davis first of all have you seen this document before I've seen it at the inquiry okay and you'll see roughly halfway down the page the result of
00:43:28 halfway down the page the result of development comment 1/2 the operational risk database and it says access through them MDT did not provide sufficient
00:43:39 them MDT did not provide sufficient information on gruntal tower in particular the tactical plan and floor plans now sorry mr. Kelly can we highlight the next yes because it's a
00:43:50 highlight the next yes because it's a continuation it is and then you see to to review PN 800 considered consider the
00:44:01 to review PN 800 considered consider the training provided to staff and collation calling key information on the LD ensure there was a suitable quality assurance process in place now dealing with the first one of those is that a conclusion
00:44:12 first one of those is that a conclusion with which you'd agree can you help us in your own mind what do you think the deficiencies were in the Ord in relation
00:44:24 deficiencies were in the Ord in relation to Graham for so the the lack of a floor plan that was usable for the initial crews and specifically within briefing
00:44:38 crews and specifically within briefing VI crews from my experience I think if they had a sufficient floor plan that would have assisted the briefing of the commanders of the bridgehead and I will
00:44:49 commanders of the bridgehead and I will give some context to that that colleagues and friends that attended did say that the breakdown of the internal structure of the building would have made the internal layouts actually useless at one point so although they
00:45:01 useless at one point so although they would have helped initially the briefings as the instant progress they would have been no use at all now if we can put that down and Danny could we bring up the Oh idea itself which is lfb
00:45:14 bring up the Oh idea itself which is lfb quadruple zero three double one six
00:45:25 first of all just to ensure we're all singing from the same MJ do you agree this is the odium election to gramflour so that is a version screenshot of the
00:45:37 so that is a version screenshot of the our D for grenfell up as I don't know if it helps again with context there's different versions of that same month so what I mean by that the details the same but the layer and the format is different for what role you have with an
00:45:49 different for what role you have with an LFA but the information is the same across all formats yes okay now it says in the top right they're approved by Davis ni presumably that's you yep and
00:46:05 Davis ni presumably that's you yep and we've got complete on the left-hand column we've got completed by Ricketts these that's presumably that's Dean Ricketts yep and the date 15th of February 2017 what does that date relate to can you help us with that so looking
00:46:18 to can you help us with that so looking at that day I would have to double-check the date of things visit which is on the screen yeah yeah yeah so that would tell
00:46:29 screen yeah yeah yeah so that would tell me that that's the date relating to Dean's visit that you discussed earlier now would that would the Ord have been
00:46:40 now would that would the Ord have been last approved by you on or about let's assume the 15th of February date is correct that's when you would have approved it that's what it would allude to however that's as I said in my statement having seen some other
00:46:52 statement having seen some other documents it would suggest that it's never come to me for approval if you look at the bulk of the detailed below there's no my last name references plans
00:47:05 there's no my last name references plans are required for MDT yep so if I've approved it my name should appear between Dean Ricketts and Phil Jobson at the very top I see and it isn't there it's not there okay can you explain therefore how your name came to be and
00:47:18 therefore how your name came to be and put it in the top right box in the top right hand corner I can't now if we can look at page one and we can look at the
00:47:29 look at page one and we can look at the ng for the date of the 28th of April well sorry the 20th of April 20 team over top can you help us with data
00:47:44 team over top can you help us with data quality checks completed what that might involve so that's as I described earlier that the different stages of quality assurance
00:47:51 assurance so that would describe Dean Ricketts initial visit it would give a brief description of his update that he's done on the Ord and then that beta quality
00:48:04 on the Ord and then that beta quality checks completed by Phil Jobson Phil is a colleague he used to work in the PDA department so he would be that as I said that final checks and balance at the end of the process final elements this yeah
00:48:17 of the process final elements this yeah and obviously there should be an entry or section with my name on that that would say I've proved that or quality checks completed okay if Danny can bring that down and then if we can look at the
00:48:30 that down and then if we can look at the previous visit comments yeah which is above the earlier visit comments box that's amplified yeah this is there are no comments applied for this visit Davidson either to you yeah 28th of April 2017 so eight days
00:48:43 yeah 28th of April 2017 so eight days after the earlier entry are you able to help us with wide no comments are applied for whatever visit that entry relates to so I can't actually give you
00:48:56 relates to so I can't actually give you a definitive explanation on that we had some I would describe as gremlins or issues with the IT systems relating to the Ord with a general or specific to North cand general down the whole system so the
00:49:08 general down the whole system so the easiest way to describe it the the work queue that you would have as a station manager would open up a different screen for the Ord than a watch manager in effect I've different permissions so I'm
00:49:19 effect I've different permissions so I'm allowed to do certain things that they aren't however you would on occasion open up your station diary to find duplicates so instead of say five or six hour deeds to be as quality short you'd
00:49:31 hour deeds to be as quality short you'd have double and they interface as an example you may have to for Grenville one would be the station managers work queue one and then you would also have some reason a watch managers one on the
00:49:42 some reason a watch managers one on the system when I first had this issue I spoke to PD angel said on this issue with IT systems seems to be getting duplicates they set up you just
00:49:53 getting duplicates they set up you just have to go through it and in essence approve it don't open it just get rid of it and it comes off your work you because it doesn't otherwise it will clog up the system I did double-check that the initial ones
00:50:05 I did double-check that the initial ones that it didn't make any impact on the physic that's what I didn't will do was to do that and then have a detriment or a remove data or remove information from the OID it just didn't seem to make any
00:50:17 the OID it just didn't seem to make any effect it was just a blip on the system for some reason okay if we can D amplifier that box and and if we look down your entry under earlier visit
00:50:29 down your entry under earlier visit comments where it says plans are required for M DT Davis ni 10th of May 2016 so there we go plans are required for the MDT yeah do
00:50:42 plans are required for the MDT yeah do you remember inputting that comment I can't specifically remember as I said 187 to DS between the two stations however looking at the system it would
00:50:54 however looking at the system it would have jumped out to me that there were no plans on the nd T so I've done my Quality Assurance checks and I've returned that atom there to upload as the comment says I probably would have
00:51:05 the comment says I probably would have followed it up with a conversation I've checked my emails there's no reference to me emailing him specifically but either he would have called me or I would have spoken to him over that was there anything stopping you following on
00:51:17 there anything stopping you following on from the Chairman's questioning was there anything stopping you phoning up the TMO saying can we have plans initially it would be workload if I want to sort just haven't got the capacity to do that detail that's the watch managers
00:51:28 do that detail that's the watch managers if as we discuss that watch officer came to me and said governor I'm having real problems getting plans there for whatever reason I can't get them then I would obviously take that bar but I
00:51:39 would obviously take that bar but I wouldn't initially having received that or quality sure to take that myself okay given the importance you've attached to plans and getting it some their emission you've identified as a deficiency
00:51:53 could you have done more to have chased down those plans at the time given their importance of the tactical plan and other matters points I yeah I think if I
00:52:07 other matters points I yeah I think if I was being brutal the context that the work life for two stations is quite phenomenal bear in mind our new Greenfield because I visited it myself on within my first month of attending so I was aware of
00:52:19 month of attending so I was aware of Grenfell I just didn't have capacity other if I put two and two together then I probably would have would have requested that unfortunately I've just
00:52:32 requested that unfortunately I've just didn't could I ask Danny to D amplify that box and go to page three of the Ord
00:52:42 and you'll see mr. Davis below the map as the legend hazards yeah an inspection notes and it says high-rise premises of
00:52:53 notes and it says high-rise premises of 20 floors now would you agree that that's inaccurate yeah when would that inaccuracy when would you've expected that inaccuracy to being picked up so
00:53:07 that inaccuracy to being picked up so it's not for me as my role as a station manager I know it was it's glaringly obvious now where we stand that that is inaccurate but in my role was the station where to put it to you sure it's
00:53:18 station where to put it to you sure it's not for me to go around and count the floors the expectation is that professional officers would would update that information actually hasn't when it changed so the evidence we've heard is
00:53:31 changed so the evidence we've heard is that focus the section 7 2 D visit 7th of March 2017 was particular gifts item yeah
00:53:40 yeah now given that each section 7 to Devers it seems to have a particular focus yeah when when do they have the opportunity to identify basic information such as
00:53:51 to identify basic information such as the number of floors is inaccurate so in hindsight again if that had appeared back on my work you having the works being completed I think that would being a prompt for me
00:54:02 I think that would being a prompt for me I hope to say actually let's do a review as you suggested earlier at a time that the works have been completed let's do a belt and braces from start to finish review make
00:54:13 braces from start to finish review make sure all the informations accurate fruit I didn't pick that up so that's I can only assume that's why it wasn't done could I ask Danny to pull that down and
00:54:25 could I ask Danny to pull that down and turn to page four of the Ord now here we go to the Danny don't amplify anything for the moment at the top of the page
00:54:36 for the moment at the top of the page you have tactical plan yeah then operational contingency plan what from the lay perspective what appears to be missing is the tactical plan is that al
00:54:49 missing is the tactical plan is that al a mistake or can you explain it where the tactical plan ought to be found yeah so I think this might help with the context of the format that you're viewing the document in so within the
00:55:00 viewing the document in so within the MDT you will you have the option to print off under certain types so the tab for the tactical plan if you were to slick that and print that tactical plan off if you would that would have all
00:55:13 off if you would that would have all that information that's below there so the next area that has a highlighted text right so if you were to scan through the document you'll come to an area that has another its high title that's highlighted if Danny could turn
00:55:24 that's highlighted if Danny could turn to page five and again
00:55:32 page six so in essence that is the entire taxable plan that you've just viewed there so when you say the entirety of it do you mean those boxes
00:55:44 entirety of it do you mean those boxes there or yet that's they're all forms part of a tactical plan for an instant commander I would not to probably put context I wouldn't expect on the Ord to have step-by-step instructions for an
00:55:56 have step-by-step instructions for an incident commander to fight a fire in Greenville town every fire is different and we can see obvious consequences of where we went from however a professional officer would want
00:56:08 professional officer would want information that would formulate his tactical plan and that's part in that part of the ORD my understanding that's where that information it's not to give a incident commander a step-by-step
00:56:20 a incident commander a step-by-step guide to putting a fire out because every four is different it would be dangerous for an incident command to affect put a fire out by reading a book that's not what incident commanders do
00:56:32 that's not what incident commanders do they're trained they're professional officers however information may be on there that would formulate their tactical plan like that you looking at this page in particular and looking at
00:56:43 this page in particular and looking at the operational contingency plan box you'll see there we don't need to amplify yeah date effective from and date document of the 30th of October 2009 that we were discussing this with mr. Ricketts and I think you indicated
00:56:54 mr. Ricketts and I think you indicated earlier on you'd like to this is when the entry was first created for people so that in essence was the date um I'm assuming I wasn't there at the time so that's how I would read that document
00:57:06 that's how I would read that document that the plan was first created on that day we wouldn't necessarily look to update that box every time an update was done it it's the same plan so you'd
00:57:17 done it it's the same plan so you'd update the information but not necessarily changed the version yeah as an example if in error it had been deleted
00:57:24 deleted you know mer and a new plan had to be created then there could be a discussion for actually that's plan number two because the first one was deleted staying with page for further down the
00:57:37 staying with page for further down the page you've got communications the third box up from the bottom of the page there's handheld radio good comms in sub-basement channel warned given it's a high-rise residential building would you
00:57:50 high-rise residential building would you have expected an adequate Ord to include information regarding adequacy of communications further up the tower so in my experience a high-rise generally
00:58:01 in my experience a high-rise generally has poor communications that's my general experience it would that be the general assumption that your crews would have had attending a fire and a high-rise I would expect so yeah
00:58:19 what would you have expected Danny you can D amplify that now would you've expected an ood to emphasise there was a single staircase as the means of access
00:58:31 single staircase as the means of access and evacuation it would be important information it wouldn't be as we described earlier it wouldn't be an unexpected single staircase I would my
00:58:42 unexpected single staircase I would my when I visited Grenfell that was in fact I would have been surprised if there was a second staircase in my experience that because of the age of the building the age of the building the size you could tell by the architecture of the estate
00:58:55 tell by the architecture of the estate that it was of that era and there was there was no expectation in fact I said I would be surprised if there was a second staircase with in Greenville before we leave Paige for looking at the
00:59:06 before we leave Paige for looking at the last box on that page the premises information box PIB yeah and says is there a PIB at this address false what
00:59:17 there a PIB at this address false what what do you think false means there that there isn't one so I think this is a good example that if you were to print off the Ord it doesn't read as false it right is not there when you were
00:59:30 right is not there when you were reviewing the contents of the Ord would you have expected a PIB to be at Grenville given it was undergoing a very significant renovation so my recollection is similar to things
00:59:42 recollection is similar to things earlier when he said that we had a conversation around the premise information box so my understanding and I would have to check my emails about this is I had a conversation with Dean
00:59:53 this is I had a conversation with Dean that a premise information box would be suitable and I spoke to Janice ray at the TMO and I remember giving her the details of what information should be contained within the premise information
01:00:04 contained within the premise information box and can you recall whether you ever received confirmation from Janice ray or anyone else at the TMO that a PIB had
01:00:15 anyone else at the TMO that a PIB had been installed or if it hadn't the reasons why they hadn't installed it I can't remember she acknowledging that she received that information I don't recall being told that one of the installed you don't do you recall
01:00:27 installed you don't do you recall pursuing the point any further with her
01:00:32 could I go back to page 1 of the OIG and it's the entry for the 30th of April 2016 again in the middle of the page there I just let you read that mr. Davis
01:00:46 there I just let you read that mr. Davis just
01:00:58 miss Davis looking at that information do you think it gave enough detail to allow crews to operate the negative pressure ventilation system I wouldn't expect the crews to operate that negative ventilation system who
01:01:11 that negative ventilation system who would it's an automatic system but if they needed to oh sorry a senior fire safety officer is my understanding as a incident commander
01:01:22 incident commander especially if I'm told it's an automatic system I or any more crews I would not ask them to in effect operate that system without some expert knowledge
01:01:33 system without some expert knowledge about the system or some specific training that senior fire safety officer has and I think in context that I've got no understanding of what impact that might have on residents or crews I could
01:01:45 might have on residents or crews I could think I'm doing the right thing but could make the situation worse could I know deal with a separate matter and site visit to ground fault out in July
01:01:57 site visit to ground fault out in July 2016 what now do you recall Janice rare the TMO contacting you to arrange a site visit for the crews at North can to visit a tower on the 26th of July 2016
01:02:09 visit a tower on the 26th of July 2016 with the contractor Dryden but if there was an email that might choke my memory because there's a lot of correspondence with Janice right on fret don't worry lfb quadruple zero double
01:02:20 don't worry lfb quadruple zero double one three zero I'll let you read that
01:02:34 it may well be meat might need to have it highlighted yeah there'll be an email from Janice to me before that are you able to scroll to page 2 and if you see
01:02:50 able to scroll to page 2 and if you see at the bottom email 20th of July yeah so does that help
01:03:05 okay yeah did you attend do you recall whether the visit went ahead on the 26th of July 2016 or not I would have to check my diary so I did attend twice to Greenville from my bar I
01:03:18 attend twice to Greenville from my bar I can't remember the exact dates one was very soon when I started and one was later on okay could I ask Danny to put down that document and then put up lfb quadruple
01:03:29 document and then put up lfb quadruple zero double one three five
01:03:46 now at the bottom half of that page is an email from mister darden yep which appears to be confirming the visit on
01:04:02 appears to be confirming the visit on the 26th of July do you recall mr. davon attending on the 26th each light so that would suggest to the emails that I forwarded it to Mike to attend as I said
01:04:14 forwarded it to Mike to attend as I said all the watches did attend at different points throughout the refurbishment works without checking my diary to see if I attended and but that would assume that Mike Darren did attend on that date
01:04:27 that Mike Darren did attend on that date would you have expected following the visit in July 2016 given the state of the refurbishment would you have expected a significant updating of the Ord following a site visit without
01:04:40 Ord following a site visit without knowing what or any changes had been at that point and in relation to the other visits on the Ord I can tell you okay if we go back if we put that down and go
01:04:52 we go back if we put that down and go back to the OID which is lfb quadruple zero three double one six and look it and look at the first look at the
01:05:05 and look at the first look at the entries there so if we turn over the page actually maybe the best one not so
01:05:18 page actually maybe the best one not so now if we can go back to page one so that was 21st of July thank you from on memory 26th of July 2016 2016 an apology I thought there was something on the
01:05:29 I thought there was something on the other page but if you look that doesn't appear to be any entry following the visit of July 2016 would you agree yes okay are you able to explain why the Rd
01:05:44 okay are you able to explain why the Rd wasn't updated following that visit so evident not speaking for Mike but I would imagine that the visit by Adam foster where he's listed some works that were done when when Mike visited in his
01:05:57 were done when when Mike visited in his opinion there was no updates for the OID to be done but I'm assuming I can't console Mike don't speculate if you don't know you don't know looking at page one looking under the Box earlier
01:06:09 page one looking under the Box earlier visit comments the second entry from the top is in name mr. Ricketts dated the 15th of February of 2017 now he said in evidence he thinks actually in reality
01:06:20 evidence he thinks actually in reality of the date of the visit was the 27th of March 2017 are you able to confirm one way or another as a watch manager in my previous role Dean's explanation of how
01:06:32 previous role Dean's explanation of how that possibly might have happened I think is quite an accurate one that sometimes you he may have had an incident coming when the original visit was booked the obviously they do these visits rolls they're on the run and operationally ready so sometimes things
01:06:45 operationally ready so sometimes things come in he may have just left it on the original date and actually the date he did to visit he completed it incorrectly a date wise if that makes nicely and we were you aware of the purpose of the
01:06:57 were you aware of the purpose of the visit
01:06:57 visit whether it was in February or March 2017 no
01:07:04 did you follow up once mr. Ricketts was back at the station did you follow up with him what he'd encountered during the course of his visit
01:07:11 visit so I recall that me and Dean having a conversation about the premise information box as he said earlier I remember forward in having conversations with Janice right and giving her details
01:07:23 with Janice right and giving her details specific to the premise information box and I remember giving her a generic list but what I will say is it context with the in relation to so similar to the
01:07:34 the in relation to so similar to the 70-day list it it's it's a comprehensive list however it might be that they don't have to put everything in the box that that's on that list it's what's suitable and what's required for the building and
01:07:45 and what's required for the building and the risks around them following his attendance he obviously inputted the box he's written they're all building works now complete when you were looking at
01:07:57 now complete when you were looking at did you can you a call first of all looking and reviewing that particular entry no no is that so you can't remember it or you didn't I can't remember of Unix I think I would have picked up well I would have that the
01:08:08 picked up well I would have that the planes weren't on it and can you give us a reason as to why you wouldn't have given the quality assurance function of the station manager as it indicate there it wasn't in my work you it doesn't appear to have come through to my work
01:08:20 appear to have come through to my work queue to process do you remember whether mr. Rickett sir raised with you the question why the building had a dry riser as opposed to a wet riser yeah yeah and I remember hat what he said to you
01:08:33 and I remember hat what he said to you it was something that I noticed when I first went to grenfell as well the the wet risers generally first 60 meters and
01:08:44 wet risers generally first 60 meters and over and I'm doing the rough calculations three meters you could you could make a calculated guess how they've got away with a dry riser and the timings of it I did have a
01:08:56 the timings of it I did have a conversation and I can't remember who with about why it was none of remember speaking to regular fire safety in passing not as a formal about why would that be the case under in Ferguson would
01:09:07 that be the case under in Ferguson would they not have to refurb and change that and the answer I got is that would have been down to building rigs for that time they would have done a risk assessment they would have followed
01:09:18 assessment they would have followed their process I remember specifically speaking to the contractor about it and I did receive some emails that in essence showed the process that they had gone through and I can't remember whether but they had been submitted as
01:09:30 whether but they had been submitted as evidence but you contacted right and did you say yes and you were satisfied it would appear with the responses you got back from writing it confirmed what the regulatory fire safety people had
01:09:42 the regulatory fire safety people had taught that they divided I'm not an expert so I suppose I couldn't quality assure their information no given me so I didn't understand the building regulations
01:09:58 could I looking at the news gives me the information on the earlier visit comments box from your perspectives the station manager carrying out the Quality Assurance role do you consider you a
01:10:11 Assurance role do you consider you a crew would have adequate information as to how to get into the building from what set out there so my local cruisers North Kensington in essence might be
01:10:23 North Kensington in essence might be taking us they wouldn't reference this the local crews would be suitably familiar with the building that they wouldn't know need and speaking to the red watts on the night of the incident they didn't reference this they didn't need to though familiar with the
01:10:34 need to though familiar with the building
01:10:34 building I think that's sufficient information in fact that there's certain parts that you're sensitive cool things say may be too detailed in parts I remember being asked as a watch
01:10:47 I remember being asked as a watch officer always been too much detail on there however the relative information about the the drop access key is contained within the ORD the fact that there's an AFA panel and the fact that
01:10:59 there's an AFA panel and the fact that there's a ultimate ventilation system i think the big concern for me is there's no map there's no floor plan on it and as that that's the bigger mission from your perspective when you look when
01:11:10 your perspective when you look when you're carrying out i should have asked you this earlier if when you're carrying out the quality assurance function do you put yourself in the shoes of the incident commander basically what information with the information commander need and then use that as the
01:11:21 commander need and then use that as the benchmark against which you test the information within that yo ID absolutely yeah so they would qualify there's two stages of instant commander so to give you the initial instant commander
01:11:33 you the initial instant commander yeah so that will be the what's manager or crew manager on the appliance who actually physically cannot access that whilst the appliances enroute but he may request or they may request to have a
01:11:45 request or they may request to have a copy prints it off for them to reference as it progresses however as an incident does progress my Grenfell did then a senior officer may you then nail down
01:11:57 senior officer may you then nail down into more detail within the ORD if that makes sense Danny if you wouldn't mind pulling that down and then putting up page five off the
01:12:05 the Ardi now if you're looking at from the bottom of that page I think third box on the bottom emergency contacts now
01:12:26 the bottom emergency contacts now ordinarily who would you expect to see there as the emergency contact so it would depend on the premise so if it was a residential looking at high-rise residential high-rise residential so in
01:12:39 residential high-rise residential so in my experience they now attend we don't have a 24-hour contacts if I'm honest some do some may have a concierge service
01:12:46 service I know Casey's in Chelsea have an on-call facility so that would be triggered with the automatic firearm being actuated so that would trigger their attendance at this incident so a
01:12:58 their attendance at this incident so a high-rise if you would have a
01:13:02 responsible person contact so it would be someone as is their resident liaison officer that could be numerous titles to them but it would be a person that you
01:13:13 them but it would be a person that you could contact initially to arrange your visit and you'd expect them to be employees of the responsible person as opposed for example to the contractors carrying out it could be either or both
01:13:25 carrying out it could be either or both I think as we've got here we've got the contractor on there as well hmm to me that's that's a sensible move that that's actually gone above what I would expect it shows someone conscientious as
01:13:36 expect it shows someone conscientious as a lead actually because that might be a really important bit of information if an incident patrut develops given as you said high-rise residential don't tend to have 24 concierge or contact details
01:13:48 have 24 concierge or contact details what do you do when you're you you need to attend a particular residential building outside work hours so you would initially the information that you
01:14:00 initially the information that you require would ideally be in a previous information box or be available to you you would request you would become aware hopefully if it was a local station
01:14:11 hopefully if it was a local station attending may tend to know the local authority housing so if that was a case you would request via the mainstream radio for a representative from Kensington Chelsea to attend this incident
01:14:23 to attend this incident sometimes total delay lo which we sometimes use from the local authority for rehousing and that would also be a point of contact into the council if we required further services from them okay
01:14:35 required further services from them okay earlier on mr. Davis I really interrupted you while you were discussing the question of hydrants and the alec audacity to turn to page four off the hour mr. Killian again forgive
01:14:47 off the hour mr. Killian again forgive me for interrupting you but I've got one eye on the clock because bears and others of course of now to go but it's quite stuff in here and might be quite
01:15:00 quite stuff in here and might be quite inappropriate so you would like yeah we'll all have a break ten minutes I think thanks enough right well a 10-minute break please don't talk to
01:15:12 10-minute break please don't talk to anyone about your evidence when the rafters run and we'll be back at 25 past three and you something there in the action good thanks so much
01:15:29 right 25-pot string
01:24:03 can I ask mr. Daley's to come back in
01:24:09 thank you
01:24:27 the Rope must is except to carry on the hearth wine I think it's good thank you yes miss Davis thank you very much for coming back could I just if Danny could put up the the Ord again please and looking at the emergency
01:24:39 please and looking at the emergency contact box I think it's at page four or five h5m
01:24:50 and looking at those emergency contacts and we aware that both identified contacts there were no longer involved in any way with Graham filter by 2017
01:25:04 which highlights would you agree one of the difficulties about putting in a project manager of a contractor in as an emergency contact great mr. Davis
01:25:18 emergency contact great mr. Davis apology before the break I said that we could go back and look at hydrants paid for off the OID Nick Danny could bring up page four for us and you'll see
01:25:32 up page four for us and you'll see insight details mr. Davis in the first box under water supply I think there's a point you wanted to make and I cut you off
01:25:41 off apologies yeah no that's fine so that that initial information about a water supplies is one of the just the key bits of information and incident commander would like especially on route to an
01:25:52 would like especially on route to an incident within the MDT's we've got a in essence a map which would in essence for green flow would have the outline of grenfell in a geographical map and
01:26:04 grenfell in a geographical map and within that database is the hydrants so that we our symbol for a hydrant so there will be a visual indication without the incident commander having to interrogate the ORD sir locate the
01:26:16 interrogate the ORD sir locate the nearest hydrant
01:26:22 now you are listening to mr. Rickett seized evidence earlier on and we were having discussions about how long it would take to test the lift and whether
01:26:34 would take to test the lift and whether it could be the firefighters could take control of it and he thought that test would take between five and ten minutes does that sound about right to you yeah that would sound about right now
01:26:46 yeah that would sound about right now given the importance of a lift in relation to firefighting would you agree that it was necessary to have carried out some form of tests of the lift
01:26:58 out some form of tests of the lift during the course of that visit in March 2017 the specifics of that back visit if Dean had specifically only gone to look
01:27:09 Dean had specifically only gone to look at one specific issue at that time they he has a time slot of an hour and a half and I think he alluded that to the fact he had other bookings other appointments
01:27:21 he had other bookings other appointments to go to so he physically may have made that decision that he didn't have time to do it he might he may have initially wanted to do it in hindsight from what we know now with the lift it may have
01:27:34 we know now with the lift it may have identified an issue with lift but that test of the lift is only accurate for when you test it so it could have been they tested it on a Monday and a fault may have been found on the Tuesday do
01:27:46 may have been found on the Tuesday do you know whether there was any follow-up from north ken with the TMO regarding testing of the lift
01:27:58 now could I now turn to the aborted for pump exercise do to be carried out an eighth of June of last year first of all were you aware of that exercise gift saw was can you briefly
01:28:12 exercise gift saw was can you briefly summarize for us what the purpose of the exercise was so it was a full pump exercise that gets allocated to the watches by the central program part of
01:28:24 watches by the central program part of and it that goes direct to the watch officer in this instance was Dean I'm aware of when the full pump exercises our friend for my station with the dates
01:28:35 our friend for my station with the dates and the watches corresponding I remember specifically about Grenfell in the sense of the building works being done it was an ideal opportunity to do an exercise there Dean has to go for a procedure for
01:28:49 there Dean has to go for a procedure for the exercises a form we call a 5 5 3 2 which is a risk assessment that has to go through myself so that shows that Dean had researched looked at the hazards around the exercise and suitably
01:29:01 hazards around the exercise and suitably resourced the exercise so I was aware of it having smoked today yes ok and if I could ask Danny to bring up lfb document quadruple 0 3 5 8 & 0
01:29:24 there we go I think this is you know first of all do you recognize this document again and this summarizes the purpose of the exercise and if we look
01:29:36 purpose of the exercise and if we look at box for training aims and objectives it says to test crews ability and then all says initial appliance attendance
01:29:47 all says initial appliance attendance information gathering will be examined as well as will access to the operational risk database through the mobile data terminal can you help us what was what is that element of the
01:30:01 what was what is that element of the exercise getting out there what were they trying to instill into the crew so as the supervising station manager for a full pump exercise my my job in essence was to supervise the training exercise
01:30:13 was to supervise the training exercise and we would have a range of aims and objectives for that exercise to be completed so initially initial appliance attendance information gathering so that
01:30:25 attendance information gathering so that would be you'd be looking at premise information box you'd be looking at as it says the MDT that would give the my experience as a station manager having performed that role at an exercise
01:30:36 performed that role at an exercise similar you would get a firefighter to print off the ORD for that premise and it's that that would in essence you're looking at the crews ability to gather
01:30:47 looking at the crews ability to gather information whether it be through the building itself or through the MDT as it said there thank you and if Danny could D amplify that box and if we just look at the top of this document the
01:30:58 at the top of this document the addressees section you are the intermediary yeah for the documents can be converted group management cabinet and would you have reviewed this risk assessment before dispatching it to the
01:31:09 assessment before dispatching it to the group manager yeah and we would you indicate that you approve it get an initial list and a face
01:31:19 but can you remember whether there was a plan of Grenville tower submitted with the risk assessment form itself not to my knowledge that wasn't know I took
01:31:30 my knowledge that wasn't know I took care of I wouldn't expect a plan to be submitted with this document would you've gone back to the the Ord to see if anything was missing in order to incorporate an objective for the
01:31:41 incorporate an objective for the exercise itself no so for example having identified the plans were needed you wouldn't have gone back to their ID to say listen we need to include plans up
01:31:53 say listen we need to include plans up state plans is this exercise if I became aware before the exercise then I would endeavor I would point that out to Dean that we need any plans for the exercise to be on the MDT but obviously I was in the way okay
01:32:16 can I ask you some questions about the aov mechanism yeah now do you know can you confirm the station manager Andy Walton attended the witnessing of the building management
01:32:28 witnessing of the building management systems that grant will tear on your behalf
01:32:31 behalf yeah I think I actually asked him to attend a fond memories will quit and what feedback did you have received from him following that visit so my recollection was a verbal feedback I
01:32:43 recollection was a verbal feedback I don't believe I've got an email feedback from him and I remember the information coming to me there was an automated system I remember the detail being that
01:32:54 system I remember the detail being that it actuated on each floor rather than throughout the building there were the two key pieces of information that I felt were relevant that needed to go on
01:33:05 felt were relevant that needed to go on the OIG actually yeah that the it was an automated system the fact that it X rated on a floor rather than throughout the whole building was an important piece of information to go on the Ord
01:33:16 piece of information to go on the Ord and do you remember any other information he provided to you following so only from his evidence he prompted me that we had discussed the plans around the ventilation system I can't recall if
01:33:30 the ventilation system I can't recall if I spoke to Janice around there or he did I'm afraid I just can't recall ever I do when the his evidence was given it he talked to memory but I can't remember the detail around it did you have any discussion with mr. Walton about
01:33:42 discussion with mr. Walton about instructions for using the system would you simply assumed you needed a fire safety officer there no if he had said he wanted instructions to use it I would have corrected him and said that the
01:33:53 have corrected him and said that the instructions should be in the box but we wouldn't want the instructions to proves to use as I said earlier because we would require a senior fire safety officer that's what price it could I
01:34:04 officer that's what price it could I retrace my steps lightly in terms of plans if you won't get any plans from the responsible person yeah have crews in the past drawn their own
01:34:15 have crews in the past drawn their own plans of floor layout yep absolutely so you've got the that you've got lots different versions so you could throw a plan on a bit of paper we haven't got any scanners at fire
01:34:26 we haven't got any scanners at fire stations so we can't scan that document to the system we have to post it into the PDA section who would scan and upload the system crews we're not
01:34:38 upload the system crews we're not allowed our mobile phones on the appliances as crews on the fire the prices senior officers do I have heard of crews in the past taking photographs on their phone so then they can email
01:34:49 on their phone so then they can email them to themselves to try and get around the systems get the planes so we're not taking photograph I would suggest either an IFA panel diagram that's generally where you would find a suitable plane
01:35:00 where you would find a suitable plane next to the IFA panel and what they would do is they would physically take a photograph from their personal phone and then email it into their email account and try to upload it on the system that
01:35:11 and try to upload it on the system that way what would be your preference in the hierarchy line drawings from the responsible person handwritten or hand-drawn plans from crews following a
01:35:23 hand-drawn plans from crews following a section 7 2d visit for me the important thing is whatever works best for the MDT terminal so what I mean by that is part of the QA process that I would ask is for the plans to be printed off so you
01:35:36 for the plans to be printed off so you visually might as a station manager look a set of plans on your pc screen and you think they're fantastic but you actually print them off on the MDT and they're
01:35:47 print them off on the MDT and they're illegible you can't use them so it would it's it's depends on what gives you the best result you would go with could I now ask you a question about communications and in relation to the
01:35:59 communications and in relation to the ORD we can go back to if you need but it obviously had a reference to communications in the basement basement being good now for the purposes of a section 72 d visit should there be
01:36:11 section 72 d visit should there be testing of communications using the three available modes of communication up and down the tower and I'll go through each one of the putative available means of communication first
01:36:22 available means of communication first of all handheld radios should you test their efforts up and down the turf to be from the base to the highest floor for my experience
01:36:33 to the highest floor for my experience if you were new to a premise or as a new building that would be done from speaking to the crews at North Kensington they're all fully aware of the shortfalls with the radios within the tower and I think it goes back to
01:36:45 the tower and I think it goes back to that reference I made earlier about a comment about good comms in the basement actually I wouldn't expect there to be good comes in the basement so that's the relevant bit of information that was good for the our day around that youth
01:36:56 good for the our day around that youth severe waves would you expect an air wave radio its efficacy effectiveness have been tested from the basement to the top of a tower we're not allowed to our airwaves emitter stay in the clock so as the senior officer we're not meant
01:37:08 so as the senior officer we're not meant to have higher waves on a person on the foreground with the same answer applied to a question relation to the use of mobile phones a senior officer I believe
01:37:19 mobile phones a senior officer I believe we were allowed to keep our mobile phones on the fire ground I've never come across a document or a policy that says otherwise now for the moment could I ask you some further questions just in
01:37:31 I ask you some further questions just in relation to discussions with the TMO and first of all is it right that you attended by monthly meetings of the TFS correctly do you recall any confirmation
01:37:44 correctly do you recall any confirmation by the lfb to the TMO that the PIB wasn't necessary provided instruction for the AV and smoke control panels were
01:37:55 for the AV and smoke control panels were available q member any communication along those lines from the NFB yeah I can't recall if there was but my experience would tell me that the
01:38:07 experience would tell me that the premise information box isn't essential if that informations contain somewhere else that's relevant then they don't necessary have to have a premise information box but so long as that information is available somewhere in
01:38:19 information is available somewhere in the beyond sight yeah so those are all the questions I've got for now however I'd be grateful for a five minutes just a review yes well as you probably know
01:38:31 a review yes well as you probably know and time to tighten council thinks of further questions of the author the vast so we'll have a five-minute break now same as before please don't talk to anyone about for evidence and back a
01:38:42 anyone about for evidence and back a quarter for well something needs to be explained to me so one usual time it takes I if I couldn't afford right kind
01:38:55 takes I if I couldn't afford right kind of live in peace okay
01:39:09 or I tend to fall in please Thanks it
01:39:25 you
01:50:12 you
01:50:22 yes a few persons I imagine mr. Kinnett you imagine correctly sir think he else
01:50:42 I think there are a few more whistles miss Davis thank you very much um first of all if I can ask you questions about the premises risk assessment in relation to Grenville yeah first of all whose job was it to update
01:50:54 first of all whose job was it to update the PRA so that is the watch officers job who completes the 70d visit and then that comes to me in a work queue that I in essence make a decision on whether
01:51:06 in essence make a decision on whether the premise stays on the OID and the frequency of visits for that visit and do you go anything beyond those two roles and not in relation to the PRP all
01:51:17 roles and not in relation to the PRP all right now okay could I test my luck and ask some questions respect to the PRA yeah if Danny you could bring it up it's lfb Quinn tuple zero one four four now
01:51:32 lfb Quinn tuple zero one four four now looking at page one halfway down left hand side has a number of floors total 25 would you've picked up that in
01:51:46 25 would you've picked up that in accuracy when you were I'm not familiar with this document you're not not still is it format or context sorry that the
01:51:58 is it format or context sorry that the the title at the top of that document it would inform me that that's a fire safety regulation document and as an operational station manager ignore pensions and I would not be you've never
01:52:09 pensions and I would not be you've never seen I've never seen that book okay that short-circuits matters thank you can I now talk to you about meetings with the TMO and you confirmed earlier on that
01:52:22 TMO and you confirmed earlier on that your bimonthly meetings you had bimonthly meetings rather that the TMO and during the course of those meetings what specific issues would you expect be
01:52:34 what specific issues would you expect be kept updated on by the team Oh
01:52:38 okay so the context so I would attend that meeting with a member of the regulatory fire safety team so in a sense we'd have to like lfb
01:52:49 sense we'd have to like lfb representatives at the meeting one two of the main issues were a reduction in automatic fire alarms and a reduction in shutting lift calls so what that is is a
01:53:01 shutting lift calls so what that is is a paying London requirement part of our safety plans to reduce the amount of times we attend these incidents I would run reports that I would forward to Janice who was the CMO liaison who we
01:53:14 Janice who was the CMO liaison who we would lead meet with and we will identify any premise that had to come on our radar for attending they would start despite with our eternity so that could be result of a fault on the system it
01:53:26 be result of a fault on the system it could be a faulty lift that maintenance needed require and it was a forum where we would discuss options to address those concerns around them and there was further stand-in items around the
01:53:38 further stand-in items around the meeting and grenfell was one of them regarding refurbishment was now in respect of that standing item of the refurbishment works would the TMO be updating you regarding
01:53:49 would the TMO be updating you regarding building materials and in particular cladding been apprised exterior No so I remember specifically speaking to the fire safety Rebecca
01:54:00 the fire safety Rebecca Burton who was the lead who would attend with me from our area operati and one of my first questions is do I need to worry about the regulations is every and as
01:54:11 about the regulations is every and as far as I was told that they are within their regulations as far as she knew it and her being the red Natori fire safety expert I will take her guidance on that did you take it further and not us them particularly about the risks are rising
01:54:23 particularly about the risks are rising from cladding when they're involved in fire no not from Rebecca no no did you pursue that with anyone from the team oh not from the team oh no no writing no I
01:54:36 not from the team oh no no writing no I believe all had a discussion in relation to the Shepherd's caught fire so although I didn't attend that fire and I was August 2016 that's correct yeah so I
01:54:47 was August 2016 that's correct yeah so I was aware that members of my station had attended and the senior officers in discussion there was no formal training around it I receipt but in discussion to improve my awareness of that I was
01:55:00 improve my awareness of that I was informed that the the main issue was uPVC windows around that and so it wasn't necessarily a cladding specific risk however the main risk associated with that fire was in relation to the
01:55:13 with that fire was in relation to the uPVC cladding are you able to give us Rebecca's full name and position that you referred to earlier on Rebecca
01:55:24 you referred to earlier on Rebecca Burton Burton Burton the UART CIA not believe and she's on a lot of email correspondence that I've submitted and at the time she was the Kensington and
01:55:35 at the time she was the Kensington and Chelsea team leader for registry for safety with the council note with lfp with LFA yeah final questions now mr.
01:55:46 with LFA yeah final questions now mr. Davis first of all can you explain what the LSB is described as virtual plates what are they so second virtual plates first of all are you familiar with that phrase no not specific
01:55:59 phrase no not specific okay if you're not familiar I'm not going to ask you any questions on them so that is a neat conclusion to the questioning I have for mr. Davis it just
01:56:11 questioning I have for mr. Davis it just leaves me to say thank you very much for attending inquiry state yes I'd add my thanks to that mr. Davis it's really important to us to understand some of these procedures have to be undertaken
01:56:23 these procedures have to be undertaken and it's been very helpful to have your evidence about them so I think thank you very much indeed for coming thank you sir and you're free to go
01:56:33 thank you very much
01:56:45 yes it's clear so that concludes the business but today you have witnesses tomorrow but they will not be firefighter witnesses and like you will have mr. millet and mr. Rawat with you
01:56:58 have mr. millet and mr. Rawat with you tomorrow well thank you for looking after the reason today makes it and will now break until ten o'clock tomorrow morning
01:57:05 morning thanks it 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you
01:57:55 you