Harley Curtain Wall Design Manager Daniel Anketell-Jones testimony examining his qualifications, training, understanding of building regulations, and role in the Grenfell Tower cladding project design.
00:00:07 yes we're strange good afternoon mr chairman who's the next witness yes it's mr daniel ancatel jones
00:00:14 jones good thank you
00:00:28 please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth good thank you very much mr strength sit
00:00:39 good thank you very much mr strength sit down make yourself comfortable
00:00:46 now we shall have a break roughly halfway during through the afternoon but if at any stage you feel you need to have a an additional break will you just tell me all right thank you yes mr screech yes thank you
00:00:59 thank you yes mr screech yes thank you thank you mr angel jones thank you very much for attending today to give evidence it's very much appreciated if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you in the course of your evidence
00:01:10 your evidence please ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way and if you feel you need a break at any point please let us know and can you please try and keep your voice up so that the transcriber lady there to your right
00:01:23 transcriber lady there to your right can take down a good note of what you're saying
00:01:27 saying um now you've made two statements to the inquiry
00:01:30 inquiry i want to take you to them they're in a folder on your desk in front of you and they'll appear on the screen the first is dated the 8th of november 2018 and it's to be found at har3010149
00:01:45 and it's to be found at har3010149 and if we can look on at page 18 of that statement
00:01:51 statement is that your signature there at the bottom
00:01:54 bottom yes it is thank you and have you read that statement recently yes and can you confirm that the contents are true yes and now the second statement to the inquiry was made
00:02:05 inquiry was made on the 19th of march if we pull that up that's
00:02:09 that's har 3010513 and if you can go to page two of that again is that your signature at the bottom of that statement
00:02:20 bottom of that statement yes and have you read that recently no
00:02:25 can you confirm the contents are true
00:02:29 that's the short statement that you deal with the deletion of certain items from your laptop computer yes it's true thank you and you also made a statement to the
00:02:40 and you also made a statement to the metropolitan police service dated the 9th of december 2019 if we can pull that up that's at met
00:02:48 3064867 that's a very short statement just two pages
00:02:53 pages and that's in the final tab on your desk can you confirm the contents of that statement are true yes thank you and have you discussed your statements or evidence with anybody before coming here today
00:03:05 before coming here today thank you now i wanted to start by considering your background and your qualifications if we look at
00:03:13 look at paragraph four of your first your main statement
00:03:17 statement this is har3010149 and if we zoom in on paragraph four you tell us there in the first sentence that you graduated from the university of
00:03:28 you graduated from the university of sussex
00:03:29 sussex in 2003 with a b end in a electrical and mechanical engineering robotics and automated manufacturer do you see that there yes and you go on
00:03:40 do you see that there yes and you go on within that paragraph to explain that after finishing that degree you initially worked with a company called bespoke design services is that correct yes what kind of work did that company
00:03:51 yes what kind of work did that company do
00:03:53 do cutting wool design curtain wall design and and cladding design or just curtain wall
00:03:59 wall cutting all the windows from memory right
00:04:04 right and and how big was that company initially there was two people um and i think its largest point it was probably five yeah and is it right that the founder of
00:04:17 yeah and is it right that the founder of that company and your boss at the time was mr kevin lamb is that correct yes that's correct did you know him before you worked at bespoke design services no
00:04:28 bespoke design services no and what was your initial role title when you worked for that company
00:04:34 i think it was project designer as it says yeah
00:04:39 and can you help us as to what that involved in practice so you would take the design by the architect and turn take the system details
00:04:51 turn take the system details and put them together into a way that could be then manufactured so it was mainly to do with producing fabrication drawings for the factory and just because that was for windows and curtain walling is
00:05:02 was for windows and curtain walling is that correct that's correct yeah so did your role involve designing facades no it was designing fabricated components
00:05:16 and you say at paragraph four of your witness statement that you were quickly promoted to the position of project designer
00:05:23 designer roughly how long before you were promoted can you recall no i can't i think it's when the company grew in size a bit yeah and was it mr kevin lam who promoted you yes and did you undertake any formal
00:05:37 yes and did you undertake any formal design
00:05:38 design training or qualifications in under in order to undertake your role as project designer for that company i think i went to uh one of the current wall companies for a few training courses
00:05:49 courses which was shuko
00:05:55 and about roughly how much time did you spend
00:06:00 spend on those training courses can you remember i think it equated to a couple of days
00:06:09 and what type of projects did you work on what was there a theme in terms of the type of projects that you no it was a design it was sort of a design house outsourcing company so it was just
00:06:21 outsourcing company so it was just different
00:06:22 different facade companies would come to them to you know drop their sort of fabrication drawings yeah and in that role as project designer were you required to consider the fire performance of materials
00:06:35 now um looking again at paragraph four of use
00:06:39 of use of your statement at the end there you say you then move from bespoke design services to bowsted
00:06:46 bowsted international heaters limited was that in around 2006 yeah i would have thought so yeah um and what did your role in that organization entail that was as working
00:06:59 organization entail that was as working as a project engineer for um basically they they did oil heaters for the oil refinery so the role involved working to
00:07:13 so the role involved working to sort of put together the fabrication components to get them sent out to where they were going to be installed so am i right that that was nothing to do with the design of
00:07:25 nothing to do with the design of cladding or curtain walling or any external facades no it wasn't
00:07:31 and you explain in paragraphs four and five of your statement that you've been working there for about six months before moving to harley curtin wall in november 2006 is that correct that's correct
00:07:44 that's correct now what role were you initially employed in for harley i think it was project engineer
00:07:55 and what was your what were your general duties as project engineer same thing as when i was working at bespoke design it was taking the architects drawings and put
00:08:06 taking the architects drawings and put putting them into system drawings that could then be fabricated were you designing facades for harley at any stage
00:08:16 any stage no i was designing fabricated components i see so you're drawing that distinction between being the designer of the facade and being the the person who's designing the fabricated components is that
00:08:27 the fabricated components is that correct
00:08:28 correct yes that's correct did you receive any formal training from harley in respect of that role
00:08:37 very towards the end of my time with harley i started an msc we've started engineering with them
00:08:46 yes i'm going to come to that in a moment so had you obtained any qualifications when you initially started working for harley to assist you in your design of fabrication designs no
00:08:58 design of fabrication designs no the only the other thing i did was an msc in structural engineering because there was this structural engineering that time was subbed out to a structural
00:09:09 was subbed out to a structural engineering firm there were issues with communicating what you needed from them so they decided how instructional engineering house would make that part easier yeah when were you
00:09:22 make that part easier yeah when were you promoted to the role of design manager in harley i can't remember it would probably be on my
00:09:31 my cv was it before the grenfell project or do you think during it before that a long time before or i can't remember you can't remember so
00:09:42 i can't remember you can't remember so as you've just mentioned in paragraph seven of your statement if we go to that on page two of this document you you say that whilst working for harley you obtained the msc in
00:09:53 harley you obtained the msc in structural engineering from the university of surrey and you started an msc in facade engineering from the university of bass between 2014 and 2017 is that correct
00:10:04 between 2014 and 2017 is that correct that's correct
00:10:07 now what did your msc and facade engineering involve it involved attending the university bath for a week at a time and studying
00:10:18 bath for a week at a time and studying particular topics yeah did it include looking at the design of facades
00:10:26 yes did it include any teaching about the fire performance of facades yes but not until i'd left harley
00:10:38 is it right that the mfc includes one optional module on acoustics and fire that's correct yeah and did you take that module yeah i'd take that after i'd left harley question
00:10:51 and was there any other teaching on the course about fire performance or the testing and classification of facade materials more generally not that i can remember so is it right
00:11:03 not that i can remember so is it right that
00:11:03 that until you did that module of that course you hadn't had any academic uh training in terms of fire performance
00:11:15 and did the course include anything on the requirements under the building regulations 2010 there were different parts of the course that covered different parts of the building regulations yeah so parts and did so for example
00:11:28 yeah so parts and did so for example there was a thermal course that would have covered part l yeah and for the fire course it would have covered part b i see so it wasn't until you did the fire module on acoustics and fire that you would have looked at part b
00:11:40 you would have looked at part b yeah i'm sorry mr tell james it's very natural to nod or shake your head but unfortunately it doesn't go on the transcript too well so if you could please try and remember
00:11:52 so if you could please try and remember to say yes or no as well yes yes thank you yes so i think you just confirmed that it wasn't until you did the fire module on acoustics and fire
00:12:01 fire that you would have looked at part b of the building regulations is that correct yes that's correct thank you now mr ray bailey last week in his evidence said that you were about three quarters of the way through the
00:12:12 the way through the this msc in facade engineering at the time of your work on the grenfell project
00:12:17 project is that correct no it's incorrect i didn't start until the end of 2014. so if you were to estimate how far
00:12:28 so if you were to estimate how far through you were um that course during the time you worked on the grenfell project what would you say
00:12:37 probably done one module so probably i think the last module counts as two so probably about a twelfth of the way through
00:12:52 now where you aware when you undertook that course that the department of architecture and civil engineering at bath university works closely with the center of window cladding and technology the cwct
00:13:04 cladding and technology the cwct to provide an industry relevant course on facade engineering yes i was when did you first become aware of the cwct as an industry organization um i think
00:13:15 as an industry organization um i think when
00:13:16 when we started discussing taking the msc on so probably earlier that year yeah so does that mean earlier in 2014 yeah yeah
00:13:33 at the time you worked on the grenfell project would you have said that you were well placed within harley to advise on whether particular materials complied with the building regulations only of a structural nature so only
00:13:46 only of a structural nature so only you were only able to advise on whether the structural performance of those materials was adequate under the building regulations is that correct that's correct
00:13:56 and what about the guidance in approved document b how familiar were you with that at the time of the grenfell project not very at all
00:14:10 did harley provide you with any training or ongoing continual professional development to assist you in your role as design manager the role as design manager was to
00:14:23 the role as design manager was to manage the program of others so there wasn't much training that could be given for that but for the structural part so is the answer to my question no that you weren't provided with ongoing
00:14:34 you weren't provided with ongoing professional development by harley
00:14:39 now i just want to look briefly now an email that we're going to come back to later and look at in much more detail but i want to go to it now this is at cel6019
00:14:50 this is at cel6019 and i want to look at page two
00:14:56 so going down that page i want to look at the email you send there that's it on the 16th of january 2015 at 11 27 can you just
00:15:08 27 can you just quickly familiarize yourself with that email
00:15:11 email in terms of what you say there this is an email from you to jonathan room at
00:15:24 celetex yeah so you're saying there in the second line we're being asked by one of our clients to see the test results and certificates for the rs 5000 insulation
00:15:35 certificates for the rs 5000 insulation and then you're asking various questions about the bs 8414 part 2 2005 testing in the next paragraph and then you're also asking about the bs
00:15:47 you're also asking about the bs 476 part 7 testing in the next paragraph now as i say i'm going to come back and ask you a lot more detailed questions later
00:15:54 later about this but i just want to ask you do you agree that it's evident from this that you are familiar with bs 8414 testing
00:16:03 testing including the results of that testing no because this would have been that i had been asked for something specific by one of the clients which is basically passing
00:16:14 passing passing it through requesting the same information to send it back i see so is what you're saying that you have received a request from a client and the information you're asking for here and the detail you've got in this
00:16:25 here and the detail you've got in this email
00:16:26 email is just you simply passing that on to seletex
00:16:30 seletex yeah just passing on their specific request
00:16:34 request so um the same question about the bs 476 part seven testing that you deal with in the third paragraph there um were you familiar with that kind of
00:16:45 um were you familiar with that kind of testing at the time you wrote that email no i wasn't did you know at the time you wrote it what bs 476 part 7 testing was relevant to when it comes to the classification of
00:16:57 it comes to the classification of materials
00:16:58 materials i knew it was relevant to fire testing that was all that was it was it you didn't know anything more about it do you know what classification you might have achieved if you'd successfully undertaken that test and
00:17:11 successfully undertaken that test and other tests not at that stage now were you familiar with a document called br135 five fire performance of
00:17:22 called br135 five fire performance of external
00:17:23 external thermal insulation for walls of multi-storey buildings produced by the british research establishment were you familiar with that
00:17:32 that publication i'd heard it mentioned and people had talked about it in support of using certain facades but it was always something i passed through to
00:17:43 always something i passed through to to the clients so had you read that publication at the time of the grenfell project
00:17:48 project no
00:17:53 so you hadn't received any formal training or indeed informal training about
00:17:58 about the testing and classification regimes in the uk at this time
00:18:05 did harley provide you with any formal or informal training to keep you up to date with the building regulations no or what about something called approved document b on fire safety
00:18:16 approved document b on fire safety no
00:18:20 had you read a pre-document b at the time of the grenfell project my role was as a structural engineer and a design manager so i didn't have any requirement
00:18:33 were you or harley at the time of the grenfell project a member of any industry bodies relevant to facade design
00:18:40 design no i harley may have been i think yeah highly remember of the cwct were you aware of that at the time of the grenfell project that harley were a member of the cwct
00:18:51 member of the cwct i can't remember you can't remember
00:18:59 and what about you personally were you ever personally a member of the cwct no do you recall attending cwct members meetings
00:19:11 members meetings i remember going to
00:19:15 the talk in london or something like that but i can't remember what it was if it was cwcd or not okay what about any other
00:19:24 any other industry or trade associations to do with facades or external walls no you don't remember harley or yourself being a member of any no
00:19:37 at the time did you think it was necessary for a specialist cladding contractor to engage with trade associations to keep up to date with relevant knowledge and industry developments
00:19:51 it wasn't something that i thought of it was something for them senior management to make those decisions yeah and they never suggested that you should keep up with those type of industry
00:20:02 keep up with those type of industry bodies or publications no i kept up to date with
00:20:06 date with my structural cpd yeah that was where my feeling of responsibility for my cpt stopped was that something you did off your own back on your own or
00:20:18 your own back on your own or was that something you were encouraged to do by senior leaders at harley it was something i did on my own out of the feeling of needing to progress and keep up with current legislation yeah
00:20:32 now in terms of your role on the grenfell project um if we go back to your statement on page two
00:20:39 two that's har3010149 at page two and we look at paragraph
00:20:46 nine
00:20:50 so you say there in the first sentence that you were involved in the refurbishment project for grenfell tower over a period of about a year in the capacity of design management manager do you see that there
00:21:01 manager do you see that there yes and i think you told us earlier that you were promoted to the role of design manager before you worked on the grenfell project is that right yes so you had acted as design manager for other
00:21:11 for other major projects for harley yes in as evidenced last week mr ray bailey indicated that at the time of the grenfell project you were the technical manager and that your job was
00:21:24 technical manager and that your job was to assess the technical compliance of products
00:21:28 products um that was at day 32 page 17 line 21. and do you agree with that were you the technical manager no i don't i don't think i was made a
00:21:39 no i don't i don't think i was made a technical manager until
00:21:42 i don't know end end of 2015 beginning of 2016 perhaps because i hadn't had any training in that area yet
00:21:53 so there was a distinction was there within harley between the role of design manager which you say you did perform and the role of technical manager which you say you didn't perform until later is that correct that's correct as design
00:22:06 that's correct as design manager was your job or part of your job to assess the technical compliance of products no
00:22:17 whose role was that within harley to your under your understanding
00:22:25 prior to um the technical the previous technical manager leaving it would have been him after he left i'm not sure who that fell on
00:22:35 on and who was that when you're talking about him leaving that would have been graham hackley graham hackley
00:22:44 and when a technical manager was appointed after his departure who was that
00:22:49 that there wasn't one appointed until i'd done enough of the degree to sort of start moving into that role i see so that was the that was the factor was it that meant
00:23:00 factor was it that meant you ended up as technical manager having done enough of that facade engineering degree back then the the commercial manager was um struggling
00:23:13 the commercial manager was um struggling to win work because there wasn't enough technical support so he was keen for me to move over to that role and help at the front end of the business
00:23:23 business and when you were the technical manager at harley did you understand it to be part of your job to assess the technical compliance of products
00:23:32 products not at that point because i wasn't qualified yet so at what point did you think you were would have been when i would have qualified to have been able to you know
00:23:43 to have been able to you know cast opinions across the full range of performance requirements and did you ever get to that stage while you work for harley no no
00:23:57 now at paragraph six of your witness statement
00:24:00 statement on page two you say there in the first line what was involved in the role of design manager depended on a particular project
00:24:08 project and who else was on the team and then you say
00:24:12 you say but on the whole it included being the designer on individual projects as well as ensuring that other projects had sufficient design resource a designer and that they kept to the building works program
00:24:24 kept to the building works program do you see that there yes so can you just describe for us in a little bit more detail what your role as a design manager generally used to entail
00:24:35 generally used to entail usually i'd have a couple of projects myself that i'd actually be working on and drawing the fabrication drawings for and then there would be a couple of
00:24:46 and then there would be a couple of designers in the office and it would be my responsibility to make sure that they were keeping up with their
00:24:53 their demands of work making sure they were keeping the project managers happy on site
00:24:59 site and um you know maybe moving design resource around if a particular project was running behind yeah now you also say in that last
00:25:12 yeah now you also say in that last sentence of paragraph uh six this sometimes involved appointing external subcontractors designers as was the case with grenfell do you see that there yeah and it's an example of that the
00:25:23 yeah and it's an example of that the appointment of kevin lam as the external subcontract designer for the grenfell tower project yes that's correct now we'll come back to his specific role later but can you explain in general who was
00:25:35 but can you explain in general who was at harley that would determine whether an external subcontractor would be required i think it was just knowing that there wasn't enough design resource
00:25:46 wasn't enough design resource and i think because do you mean in general or specifically for grenfell who would take that decision
00:25:55 decision on a project who would be the person to say we need an external subcontract designer on this project would that be you
00:26:01 you or would that be someone else in heart i think i'd probably feedback that there wasn't enough resource yeah and then they could either make the decision to bring in someone external
00:26:11 external or to employ more people yeah and what process would harley normally go through to appoint an external subcontract designer can you help us on that i think in the
00:26:24 can you help us on that i think in the past
00:26:25 past before kevin we'd used a couple of companies
00:26:28 companies and usually it was you know word of mouth of
00:26:32 mouth of other companies stating whether they were good or not would harley take any steps to ensure that these external subcontract designers were competent to
00:26:43 subcontract designers were competent to undertake the role not that i'm aware of so you're not aware of any steps no just be the you'd probably seek um other people's feedback
00:26:56 so would references be taken from um professionals involved in other projects about their competence yeah but it would be not an official
00:27:07 yeah but it would be not an official not in an official way it'd be that you'd call up people that they'd work with
00:27:11 with and get feedback that way
00:27:15 and we'll come back to kevin lam later but can you recall that happening with kevin lam's appointment i think that
00:27:24 harley had worked with kevin before and i don't think anyone raised any issues with working with him again yeah now if we can go to paragraph 14 of your
00:27:36 now if we can go to paragraph 14 of your witness statement this is at the bottom of page three and on to page four you say that as the design manager for the grenfell project my involvement included managing the project designers work
00:27:48 the project designers work managing the flow of information between the relevant project contractors or individuals and helping to ensure that we were keeping to the building works program and dealing with any issues that arose
00:27:59 and dealing with any issues that arose because of my involvement in other projects i would often be dipping in and out of the grenfell project do you see that there yes now you you say that one of your roles was to manage the project
00:28:11 roles was to manage the project designers work who was that on the grenfell project maybe kevin lam
00:28:19 and given what you say there in that paragraph does that mean that you were not
00:28:23 not involved yourself in carrying out the day-to-day design of the facade on the grenfell project as far as i can remember that's correct all i did from a design point of view
00:28:36 all i did from a design point of view was the structural design right yeah
00:28:41 and and who was it that was doing the facade design then in terms of again other aspects not just structural again it's um kevin would be taking the
00:28:52 again it's um kevin would be taking the architects drawings and turning them into fabrication drawings
00:29:05 can you explain what your role involved in terms of managing the project designers work what would that involve so at the beginning there wasn't a
00:29:16 so at the beginning there wasn't a project manager or contracts manager involved
00:29:20 involved so it was to try and get the design program to meet the project program and try and scope out what period he'd need for design what period would be needed for approvals from the
00:29:32 approvals from the client's team and then any revisions that he needed to do so that it could meet the fabrication requirements
00:29:41 so scoping out periods he would need for design is that periods of time that you would need yeah it'd be basically trying to program the works yeah so you i mean for example you'd
00:29:53 yeah so you i mean for example you'd kind of look at the building work out how many drawings you thought you'd need and then try and roughly work out how long that would take yeah to do yeah and make sure that he
00:30:04 yeah to do yeah and make sure that he was keeping to that
00:30:07 yeah did your role involve actually supervising the design work that was being done by the project designer on the project
00:30:18 designer on the project supervising in the sense of the program yes
00:30:22 yes but just limited to that was it only the program
00:30:25 program so you weren't looking at the adequacy of the project designers work in any other way no i'd i'd pass those on to
00:30:33 on to people in the company who well from a structural point of view i would but from the other other any other point of view i'd pass them on to other people in the company so who would you have been passing um
00:30:44 so who would you have been passing um other aspects of the design onto within the company people with more experience like mark stapley or ray bailey
00:30:57 i see so in terms of supervising the extent to which the design was compliant with the building regulations and associated guidance did you see that as part of your role no
00:31:10 and was that made expressly clear to you when you worked at harley was that something that you just assumed i think with the amount of work i had on other projects
00:31:22 amount of work i had on other projects i i couldn't look at the designer's work i can't remember having a contract that said
00:31:29 that said that it was or wasn't involved and in terms of the supervision of the extent to which the design was compliant with the building regulations who else within harley did you think was
00:31:40 else within harley did you think was responsible for that just thought mark staple in ray bailey and does that mean mark stapley and ray
00:31:51 and does that mean mark stapley and ray bailey were frequently sent the work of kevin lam to check it for compliance i think so you think so yeah i can remember passing drawings on that
00:32:04 can remember passing drawings on that kevin had sent in to see if they were what they wanted i see now
00:32:13 i see now you say at paragraph nine of your witness statement that you were involved in the grenfell project for a period about a year in that capacity as design manager this was between june 2014 and may 2015 is that correct
00:32:27 june 2014 and may 2015 is that correct yeah roughly i think because i'd started to help out a lot with the estimating at that point i was probably moving away from it quite a lot from early 2015.
00:32:43 what about before june 2014 did you have any involvement in the project prior to that
00:32:49 that i can't remember but i don't believe i did yeah
00:32:54 and you go on to say at paragraph nine this is in the fifth line at the same time as being involved with the grenfell project i was also working as designer on two other harley projects
00:33:05 as designer on two other harley projects trinity square between february 13 and october 15 and compass house between october 15 and march 16
00:33:13 march 16 as well as managing the design resource on other projects and then you say from my recollection most of my time was taken up designing these two other projects
00:33:24 these two other projects do you see that there yes
00:33:28 now just pausing there that last sentence most of the time was taken up designing these two other projects what do you mean by designing do you mean just structural design or do you mean drawing order design
00:33:41 or do you mean drawing order design order design drawing fabricated components to be ordered sorry i said broader design um i think you then said order design did you thought yeah drawing the fabricated
00:33:52 thought yeah drawing the fabricated components for ordering i see so that's what you were doing on those two other projects ordering fabricated components drawing fabricated components so they could be
00:34:03 fabricated components so they could be ordered
00:34:03 ordered i see
00:34:07 i see um and you've said that there that most of your time was taken up on these two other projects and you say something similar at paragraph 14 last sentence on page four you say
00:34:18 last sentence on page four you say because of my involvement in other projects i would often be dipping in and out of the grenfell project we looked at that earlier so is it right that your time was divided between the design work on several different projects
00:34:30 several different projects uh during your time at harley yes it was split between doing actual work on those two other projects and
00:34:41 work on those two other projects and then ensuring that kevin was keeping to the program on the third project i see yeah were you working on any other projects at this time other than those other two you've mentioned i would have been doing
00:34:53 mentioned i would have been doing structural calculations on all the projects going through at that time yeah
00:34:58 time yeah what proportion of your time would you estimate you were spending on the grenfell project during that time so you said between june 14 and may 15 [Applause]
00:35:11 5 perhaps so very little of your time yes were you very stretched at the time in terms of the work you were having to do for harley
00:35:22 do for harley i think i was for the majority of this i was
00:35:25 was almost entirely focused on trinity square because it was a project that had a lot of problems and we'd had a lot a high staff turnover um i'd even
00:35:40 staff turnover um i'd even for a while being solely based on that site without being in the office at all would it be fair to say that your time was limited when you were monitoring and supervising
00:35:52 when you were monitoring and supervising the progress of the grenfell refurbishment project yeah i had i was focused on trinity square
00:35:58 square yeah now just a few questions about the deleted emails um you've dealt with this topic in your second witness statement can we just turn to this this is har three zeros
00:36:11 turn to this this is har three zeros 105 1 3 and at paragraph three on the first page in the first two sentences
00:36:19 sentences you explain there that you left the employment of harley facades limited in march 2016 and prior to leaving it was agreed with the managing director ray bailey that i
00:36:30 the managing director ray bailey that i could keep my work laptop do you see that there yeah and you go on to say to ensure i did not retain any harley information it was agreed that i would delete it all from the laptop this included for
00:36:42 from the laptop this included for example
00:36:43 example access to the server all hardly emails documents and design drawings do you see that there and then you go on to say accordingly on my last day of employment at the end of march 2016
00:36:55 employment at the end of march 2016 i deleted any and all harley information do you see that there yes as a professional were you aware that it might be important to retain records of your work yeah that's why
00:37:09 records of your work yeah that's why i believe everything would be kept on the company server because all the laptops just attached into the server i see all the emails were retained on there
00:37:19 there so it was on that basis that you thought the information would be preserved in case it was required in the future is that correct that's correct
00:37:29 now you say at the end of the paragraph three you say you believed at the time that whilst harley's information would be wiped from the laptop it would be retained on the company's server you see that there
00:37:41 company's server you see that there yes and you've just mentioned that in your evidence did you yourself check that before deleting the information or was that an assumption you made yeah it was an assumption i'd made from
00:37:53 yeah it was an assumption i'd made from the system that had been set up can we just have a look at mr ray bailey's witness statement at this point this is har3010184
00:38:04 this is har3010184 at page 21 and i want to look at paragraph 83. now in the very bottom three lines of that page
00:38:17 actually let's look pick it up at the fourth from bottom line it says as for daniel anchor jones he left harley some months before the fire by that stage he had both deleted all of
00:38:28 by that stage he had both deleted all of his highly related emails from his laptop
00:38:31 laptop and had arranged with our service provider to remove his email file from our systems do you see that there yes and i just want to ask you what was meant
00:38:42 meant or what you think he might have meant by that last part had a range with our service provider to remove his email file from our systems
00:38:53 systems can you help us as to what he's referring to there i i never contacted the service provider to remove the email from the systems so i don't know what he means by that right i see
00:39:05 right i see because my question was going to be if you had arranged to remove your files from harley systems how could you have assumed that that information would remain on the server you know you want
00:39:16 the server you know you want you understand the point yes understand the point
00:39:20 the point but you didn't arrange i didn't arrange for that to happen i don't think i would have had the authority or the security to do that so as far as you were concerned the
00:39:31 so as far as you were concerned the information would have stayed on hardly server
00:39:34 server and any emails drawings or documents which you sent or received in relation to the project would have been recovered that way is that correct yes because in the past where i'd had a
00:39:45 yes because in the past where i'd had a laptop break or replace the laptop it was just a simple case of
00:39:50 case of connecting it back up to the server and you had all of your emails instantly once again i see are you aware of any information simply having been lost
00:39:59 lost is there any information that you can recall but you haven't seen in any harley emails since not that stands out it was a long time ago okay
00:40:11 stands out it was a long time ago okay yeah okay i now want to just look at some of the previous projects you were involved in and turn to your cv first now this is a cv which was provided by
00:40:22 provided by ryden as part of their tender for the grenfell tower project and if we can pull this up at art402087 at page 44
00:40:35 and we can see here this is a page that relates to you cv details daniel anchored jones and then there's a profile under this um can you recall ever seeing this cv
00:40:47 um can you recall ever seeing this cv before it was submitted by ryden no i've never seen this document before
00:40:54 now if we look at the main paragraph under profile it says this daniel originally trained as a draftsman daniel has worked on a number of similar projects to grenfell tower whilst with harley
00:41:05 harley daniel has been selected for this project due to his experience with tower block refurbishment schemes do you see that there yes now it says there that you originally changed
00:41:16 originally changed trained as a draftsman is that correct yes
00:41:19 yes when was that when did you train as a draftsman by train i think is a loose term that basically i've worked with kevin lam at his company
00:41:30 his company you know drawing up details you know when i first joined it was drawing up the details as he told me to draw them would you ever put in your own cv that you trained as a
00:41:41 in your own cv that you trained as a draftsman
00:41:46 um i don't think there's any reason why not to
00:41:51 not to i haven't but you don't think it's inaccurate no no okay
00:41:58 and then it says in the last line that you were selected due to your experience with tower block refurbishment schemes do you see that there yes
00:42:07 there yes and then on the right under the heading benefits to the project it says here daniel will provide the following specialist skill set
00:42:20 following specialist skill set and we've got spec analysis engineering design
00:42:23 design detailing budgetary control design liaison do you see that there yes are they all accurate no which ones do you not agree with um
00:42:34 which ones do you not agree with um spec analysis budgetary and budgetary control
00:42:39 control can you help us as to how those items might have appeared in this cv that was put forward by ryden i can't this was produced without my knowledge or consent yeah
00:42:51 and then we can see four previous projects that are referred to under relevant project experience we've got the chalcott's estate project in camden
00:43:01 in camden the ferry a point in newham uh the weights living space in little venice and the buxton group castle main tower of wandsworth do you see that there yes
00:43:13 there yes were you involved in all of those projects for harley no which ones were you not involved in i wasn't
00:43:19 wasn't involved in the chelsea chalcottis state job that was being worked on when i first
00:43:26 first joined the company and it was the little venice was the first job i worked on um and then i wasn't involved with the castle main tower i don't believe
00:43:38 castle main tower i don't believe i can't even remember that one very appoint were you involved in that one i was involved yeah i see so you weren't involved in the chalcots estate project
00:43:50 did you work as design manager on the ferrier point project i um i was responsible for detailing
00:44:01 i um i was responsible for detailing the fabrication details for that project i can't remember what my title was at that point
00:44:11 okay now we can see ferry a point it involved the window replacement and overcladding 23 stories that's what's said here
00:44:22 said here um and you've just told us you were detailing the fabrication drawings is that right yes who at harley had design responsibility for the design of the facade
00:44:33 facade in relation to those works would have been the people overseeing that which again would have been my line manager mark stapley and ray bailey
00:44:47 and who from ryden did you work with on that project do you remember any particular individuals that you worked with no
00:44:58 um so that i was going to ask you about the chalcott's estate project but just to be clear you didn't have any role on that project is that right i didn't have any wrong on that project
00:45:10 [Applause] did you know what the materials were that were used on the chalcott's project for the facade i i couldn't recount them
00:45:24 for the facade i i couldn't recount them i know that they'd had some issues with delaminated panels
00:45:28 panels that came from one spot and they had to replace them with panels from another supplier but that was all i knew so did you know what manufacturers had had been involved in terms of the cladding the rain screen cladding and
00:45:39 cladding the rain screen cladding and the insulation on that project no did you know that it was a rock wool insulation that was used no
00:45:50 a rock wool insulation that was used no and you didn't know that it was rainer bond panels no
00:45:55 were you aware that a fire had occurred in a flat uh on the 17th floor of taplow house on the night of the 16th of january 2012.
00:46:06 i can't discern whether i knew that then or whether i know it now i'm afraid okay so you can't remember knowing that at the time no
00:46:20 if we turn can we look at harley's inspection report this is at har har4010169
00:46:32 we can see that this was written just very shortly after the fire it says the date of the incident was on sunday the 16th of monday the 17th of january
00:46:43 the 16th of monday the 17th of january 2012. and the date of this report is the 17th of january 2012. do you see that towards the top yes and then we've got various names here
00:46:53 here we can see it's written by tim lovell we see that one line up from the bottom of that section yes and we can see that you are also part of the distribution
00:47:04 part of the distribution for this report do you see your name there at
00:47:08 there at the bottom of that list under distribution yes can you recall um receiving this report about the fire at taplow house no i can't
00:47:21 do you think you were sent it and just have
00:47:25 have not remembered because i wasn't involved with the project i may have been sent it and not looked at it because i wasn't involved so you have no memory of ever reading the report this report into the file not
00:47:36 the report this report into the file not until i've seen it recently if we turn to page four of this document
00:47:45 the author in the middle of this page i want to look at the the paragraph below this photograph it says there it was evident that despite the fire and the amount of
00:47:56 despite the fire and the amount of flammable items in the flats such as paper etc
00:48:00 paper etc the fire breaks were still intact and prevented the fire spreading between flats
00:48:04 flats the highly designed fire break system is visible now the surrounding fabric has melted under the extensive heat do you see that there yes do you recall ever reading that or anything similar
00:48:15 anything similar about this fire were you aware that the highly designed fire brake system was still intact and
00:48:26 fire brake system was still intact and had prevented the fire spreading between flats
00:48:29 flats i can remember people saying about how the fire hadn't spread but i wasn't aware of why it hadn't spread
00:48:37 spread i see so you were never told anything about the configuration of either fire stopping or cavity barriers in that facade that was relevant to that fire no
00:48:56 now this report referred to the fact that a further survey would be carried out and we have that further survey report it was done by absale if we can turn to that this is at
00:49:08 cep50323
00:49:14 so this is a further report that was recommended after that initial inspection do you recall seeing this report at the time you worked for harley no i don't believe i did
00:49:27 don't believe i did now we can see on page two of this
00:49:32 that it is dated we see the date of report five lines down it's 23rd of january 2012. do you see that there yes and again you're there on the distribution list
00:49:43 you're there on the distribution list you're the last name on that distribution together with mark stapley
00:49:47 stapley and graeme hackley of harley do you see that there yes
00:49:52 and i want to look at what's said at the bottom of page two um if we can look at the paragraph at the bottom of that page
00:50:03 the bottom of that page in the second sentence if we pick it up it says the severity of the fire completely destroyed the living room window however the fire was contained from spreading to to over floors by the
00:50:15 spreading to to over floors by the extensive fire breaks located at the head and sill of each window do you see that there yes now do you remember ever reading that or anything similar while you were at harley no i think as
00:50:27 while you were at harley no i think as before because i wasn't involved in the project
00:50:29 project either i didn't receive it or didn't read it
00:50:34 read it so you don't recall being aware that fire breaks at both the head of the window and the sill of the window had played a role in terms of preventing fast spread
00:50:48 do you recall anybody discussing the importance of cavity barriers or fire stopping around windows after this fire within harley no
00:51:00 after this fire within harley no do you recall anyone discussing the maintenance of compartmentation after this fire and what was necessary to mainta maintain compartmentation in flats
00:51:16 [Applause] so is it right that from your point of view when harley was designing the facade
00:51:23 facade at grenfell tower um is it right that no consideration was given to the taplow house fire and what had been learnt from that fire
00:51:34 yeah i didn't know about it so i didn't feed it through i don't think anyone else fed it through and kev would kevin lam have been aware of this
00:51:43 of this as far as you were aware not as far as i was away now yeah well we can ask him later this week
00:51:53 were you aware that ryden had sorry harley had used um acm cladding on high-rise buildings prior to the grenfell tower fire yes granville tower project so you were
00:52:05 granville tower project so you were aware that they'd used acm yes and were you aware of that from your work on the ferrier point and the little awareness project yeah
00:52:17 and the little awareness project yeah did you make any assumptions about how safe the rainer bond cladding was because it had been used on previous projects
00:52:28 i i don't think i made any assumptions you didn't make any assumptions at all about fire performance no i was a my role was as a structural engineer so
00:52:40 engineer so it wasn't within my room
00:52:45 were you aware that harley had used rock wool
00:52:48 wool as an insulation project on a product on previous high-rise projects yes
00:52:58 and did you ever apply your mind to the fire performance uh of rockwool insulation prior to the grenfell
00:53:06 grenfell tower project no generally if it was i think the only time that i would ever consider the fire performance was be if it was a
00:53:17 it was a performance specification and we'd been given a u-value rather than the product then if the product that we came up with to hit the u-value then those questions would be asked and
00:53:28 then those questions would be asked and it would be sent off to the projects fire consultant to consider whether that was usable but it was always something that i put back up the
00:53:40 always something that i put back up the chain
00:53:41 chain because i didn't know about fire at that point in my career i see so so just to summarize are you saying that the only performance aspect you were ever looking at in terms of these projects was the thermal
00:53:52 these projects was the thermal performance no if it was a if there's prescriptive specifications yeah where all the products are specified yeah you know the exact product specif thickness and then there's performance
00:54:05 thickness and then there's performance specifications where they will say that they want it to be a certain new value a certain fire rating and you have to then go out into the market and find products that hit that yeah when you find a product
00:54:17 hit that yeah when you find a product you then put it back to the team to be approved i see so if it was prescriptive you'd follow what they had already set because it would have gone through the design process of being checked by
00:54:29 design process of being checked by all the consultants and if it was a fire performance that you had to hit are you saying it wasn't any part of your role to check that a particular product didn't meet that far performance
00:54:40 product didn't meet that far performance if there was if the specification had a out of five performance written in it then we would try and find that fire performance yeah but would you always seek external
00:54:51 yeah but would you always seek external advice on that yes i see okay
00:55:01 mr verla for arconic has given evidence that he
00:55:06 that he had certain conversations with representatives of ryden during the chalcott's estate project
00:55:15 project um do you recall ever meeting mr verla of
00:55:19 of iconic i've never heard of mr verla no and were you ever on site during the chalcots project i think you've told us you weren't involved is that correct no i wasn't involved i drove past it
00:55:31 no i wasn't involved i drove past it once with tim lovell who pointed at it and said
00:55:34 and said that was the project but that was it did you ever
00:55:38 you ever hear anybody else within harley discussing meeting a representative of uh arconic on the chalcott's project no
00:55:52 now i want to consider in a little bit more detail your understanding of the regulatory requirements at the time of the grenfell project um were you familiar yourself with the
00:56:03 um were you familiar yourself with the requirements of the building regulations 2010 when you were working on the grenfell project no i would have been mainly focused on the euro codes for structural engineering the euro
00:56:15 for structural engineering the euro codes for structural engineering yeah um
00:56:20 yeah um were you aware that there was a thing called the building regulations that had to be complied with you were aware of that
00:56:27 that were you aware that the building regulations contained functional requirements that had to be met
00:56:35 met as far as structural engineering i would have been aware of it because the euro codes are designed to satisfy
00:56:42 satisfy those were you aware that there were functional requirements in terms of fire performance i would have been able to logically
00:56:53 i would have been able to logically deduce it but that were functional requirements for all part of the building
00:56:58 building would you were you aware that there was a part b in schedule one of the building regulations that was relating to fire safety
00:57:05 safety yes i was aware of it and were you aware that part b divided down into parts b1 through to b5 no it wasn't so had you heard of the b4 functional requirement in terms of
00:57:17 functional requirement in terms of a wall adequately resisting the spread of fire not that timeless can we just look at approved document b
00:57:28 can we just look at approved document b this is at
00:57:31 clg50224 this is the 2013 edition of approved document b on fire safety
00:57:42 now i think before you said you weren't familiar with approved document b at the time of the grenfell project is that right yeah not like i am now had you had you looked at it at all at the time of the grenfell project i
00:57:53 at the time of the grenfell project i think had probably been sent parts of it by consultants and manufacturers but generally just to pass on had you ever read it sat down and read any bits
00:58:05 ever read it sat down and read any bits of it yourself not that i remember no did you know what the purpose was of this kind of practical guidance not at that time in my career now
00:58:19 i mean now i can look back on it and say that it is the same as eurocodes it's a way of satisfying the building regulations but at the time i was my
00:58:31 at the time i was my focus was structural engineering so i wouldn't have known that that was doing the same thing as the euro codes yeah can we turn onto page 93 where we see
00:58:41 see b4 functional requirement b4 of schedule one of the building regulations do you see that there yes before one the external walls of the building shall adequately resist the
00:58:53 building shall adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls and from one building to another having regard to the height use and position of the building i just summarized that for you earlier and asked you if you're familiar with it i think you said no is that correct
00:59:04 think you said no is that correct yes that's correct
00:59:07 and then if we turn on page 95 of this at paragraph 12.5 there's a section beginning external wall construction at the bottom of that page
00:59:18 the bottom of that page we can just zoom in on that yep so here there's a a warning it says this the external envelope of a building should not provide a medium for far spread if it is likely to be a risk to
00:59:30 spread if it is likely to be a risk to health or safety the use of combustible materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings do you see that there yes now were you aware of that warning
00:59:41 yes now were you aware of that warning at the time of the grenfell project no
00:59:46 no were you aware in general terms that the use of combustible materials and extensive cladding extensive cavities
00:59:54 cavities may present a risk in tall buildings i was aware that it was something that people were cautious of and needed to be run by the consultants to make sure that
01:00:06 run by the consultants to make sure that whatever was being used complied i see
01:00:12 and the next paragraph under 12.5 it says this
01:00:15 says this external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraphs 12.6 to 12.9
01:00:21 12.9 or meet the performance criteria given in the bre report fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls br 135 for cladding systems using full-scale
01:00:33 for cladding systems using full-scale test data from bs 8414 do you see that there
01:00:36 there yes were you aware at the time that there was guidance suggesting that external walls should either meet the guidance
01:00:44 guidance given in this document or meet the performance criteria in br135 with test data from
01:00:51 data from 8414 testing i was aware that there was performance criteria that the fire consultants worked to but i wouldn't have been able to say what it was
01:01:03 and you weren't aware of the difference between following this guidance and having had a test carried out on a cladding system no i wasn't
01:01:17 [Applause] so is it right that you can't tell us that when harley was doing its design work on the facade you can't tell us
01:01:27 us um whether anyone was following the guidance in 12.6 to 12.9 or meeting the performance criteria in br135
01:01:37 br135 i would have thought that we'd be
01:01:41 trying to follow something um and then passing it back to see if it complied
01:01:48 complied because i don't know i i certainly didn't know whether it complied or not yeah when you say i'd have thought we were following something or trying to follow something can you
01:01:59 can you give us any indication of what harley might have been trying to follow in its design work from past projects we'd always followed what we'd been
01:02:12 what we'd been what had been put in the prescriptive design and then that had been signed off by the fire consultants so we probably would have been following that same approach
01:02:23 that same approach of taking the initial design following it and then expecting it to be signed off by a fire consultant okay were you aware that in this
01:02:34 okay were you aware that in this guidance document there was special guidance
01:02:37 guidance around buildings above 18 meters
01:02:43 i knew that there was something special about buildings above 18 meters there was a different criteria that had to be met but i wouldn't have been able to say what that criteria was
01:02:55 what that criteria was can we look at paragraph 12.6 it's at the bottom of that page there it's we've got a
01:02:59 got a heading external surfaces do you see that there yeah and it says there 12.6 the external surfaces of wool should meet the provisions in diagram 40.
01:03:09 40. do you see that there yes and if we can look at diagram 40 which is on page 97
01:03:22 was that a diagram that you had ever seen at the time you were working on the grenfell project yes i think suppliers had sent it to us before
01:03:30 before but did you know yourself how to interpret that in terms of the guidance it was giving
01:03:42 no you know that for grenfell it would be the bottom right hand um sketch there e any building which would be applicable
01:03:55 i can't remember but logically it looks like the right one now diagram 40 required something called national class naught or european class b s3
01:04:08 naught or european class b s3 d2 or better um we'll cut we'll come back to national class not later but the the class b s3 d2 did you understand that at the time of the grenfell project
01:04:20 time of the grenfell project no until i did the um degree with um bath i wasn't aware of the european classifications at all
01:04:31 classifications at all yeah and so you and you wouldn't have known what the s3 d2 meant either no at that point no now if we go on page 96 and we look at paragraph 12.7
01:04:44 96 and we look at paragraph 12.7 it states that in a building with a story
01:04:47 story 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation project filler material not including gasket sealants and similar etcetera used in the external wall construction should be
01:04:58 the external wall construction should be of limited combustibility do you see that there yes now were you aware of that guidance more generally at the time you were working on the grenfell project no had you ever heard of the phrase
01:05:10 no had you ever heard of the phrase limited combustibility yes i had i thought i thought it was just
01:05:17 just the same as like class naught or one so it meant it didn't burn very much
01:05:25 so did you appreciate that within this guidance document there was a specific definition of limited combustibility and what tests had to be undergone
01:05:36 had to be undergone to meet that phrase no i didn't
01:05:46 so does it follow that you weren't aware that this guidance required the insulation product to be of limited combustibility
01:05:56 no not at that point because i was just was
01:06:00 was responsible for the structural design wasn't educated in this
01:06:12 [Applause] okay
01:06:15 okay [Applause] now in terms of specialist other specialist um guidance documents industry guidance at the time had you heard of the building control alliance the bca
01:06:31 i think that yeah i'd heard of it i as the bca
01:06:35 the bca i didn't know it stood for building control alliance were you aware at the time of the grenfell project that the bca issued guidance documents for the construction industry
01:06:47 construction industry um looking back on it now i can remember people talking about technical notes but i didn't know who they were issued by now i can connect the two together
01:07:01 now i can connect the two together if we can just look at this is um a piece of bca guidance cep3057294
01:07:12 and this is technical guidance note 18 use of combustible clouding materials on residential buildings dated june 2014. do you see that there yes
01:07:24 now at the time of the grenfell project were you familiar with this document
01:07:31 looking back on it i can remember people telling me that they'd had desktop studies done for things and on other projects we sent desktop studies off to the fire
01:07:42 desktop studies off to the fire consultants to be cross-checked um and approved or rejected um but it's only looking back on it now that i know that that came from
01:07:54 that came from this document did you read this document do you think at the time of the grenfell project i don't believe so
01:08:07 now we can see that you were sent this version of the bca gardens on the 8th of april 2015 by jonathan room at celetex if we could just pull that up this is at
01:08:22 cel403628 and again i'll come back to this email later when we're talking about celetex in more detail but what i want to note here is that
01:08:33 to note here is that um if you look at the third paragraph of this
01:08:37 this email to you on the 8th of april 2015 he says
01:08:41 says i've attached the building control guidance notes for insulation products above 18 meters which seem to be doing the rounds at the moment do you see that there
01:08:49 there yes and there was an attachment to this email which was the guidance note i was just showing you can you remember what you did with that guidance when it was sent to you by mr room
01:09:01 room no i can't do you recall whether you passed it on to any other harley employees no i can't or kevin lam no
01:09:13 or kevin lam no or to studio e no or ryden no just to be clear you weren't familiar with it before this point is that right
01:09:25 with it before this point is that right no i wasn't familiar with it i can remember
01:09:28 remember just that people used to talk about the desktop studies as way of getting something approved and that we send them on yeah can we go back to that technical note 18
01:09:42 cep3057294 it tells us in the first paragraph under purpose that the technical guidance notes are for the benefit of its members in the construction industry
01:09:54 its members in the construction industry to provide information promote good practice and encourage consistency of interpretation for the benefit of our clients do you see that there yes they are advisory in nature and in all cases the responsibility for
01:10:06 all cases the responsibility for determining compliance with the building regulations rep remains with the building control body concerned do you see that there yes now if we then go down in this document under introduction
01:10:18 in this document under introduction it says there section 12 of approved document b 2 gives guidance on the acceptable use of combustible materials within the external cladding system and it says
01:10:29 the external cladding system and it says where a building exceeds 18 meters in height adb 2 recommends for the entire wall area below both below and above 80 meters
01:10:38 meters either the use of materials of limited combustibility for all key components or to submit evidence that the complete proposed external cladding system
01:10:49 proposed external cladding system has been assessed according to the acceptance criteria in br135 do you see that there yes now again were you aware
01:10:59 you aware that there was guidance from the building control
01:11:04 body this building control body the building control alliance along those lines about using materials of limited combustibility for all key components or submitting evidence that the proposed
01:11:17 or submitting evidence that the proposed external system has been assessed according to bl-135 were you aware of that at the time
01:11:24 no so did you ever give any consideration to what
01:11:30 to what materials of limited combustibility for all key components meant no i'd never read this i didn't so even though you're sent it by
01:11:41 didn't so even though you're sent it by a representative of celtics you wouldn't have thought to read this i think we were getting a lot of pressure from celtx and a lot of sales material at that time
01:11:53 i can't remember reading it
01:11:56 now um under key issues immediately below that this guidance says if we read from the first bit fire spread via the external wall medium is
01:12:07 spread via the external wall medium is exacerbated by the use of combustible materials and extensive cavities do you see that there yes and that mirrors what we saw before in 12.5 do you remember of adb
01:12:18 you remember of adb where it was highlighting the same risks do you recall that just a minute ago um and the guidance goes on
01:12:29 um and the guidance goes on the speed by which a flame rises vertically up the external face of a building leads to potentially rapid fire spread from lower floors to higher ones within the confines of a cavity the flame will also elongate
01:12:40 flame will also elongate up to 10 times its length as it searches for oxygen do you see that there yes now were those risks that you were generally aware of at the time of the grenfell project
01:12:52 time of the grenfell project i don't think to this extent i think at the time my understanding was just that you could get unseen spread of flame so not that it would spread so high
01:13:04 so not that it would spread so high or so quickly yeah um and then that's why you had to put in cavity barriers yeah to stop the unseen spread of fire
01:13:13 of fire yeah so it goes on hence the need for robust cavity barriers restricted combustibility of key components and the use of materials with a low spread of flame rating is necessary
01:13:25 spread of flame rating is necessary and then particularly given the delamination and spooling nature of some of the components when heated do you see that there yes again were you aware of all of that in general terms at the time of the grenfell project not
01:13:36 at the time of the grenfell project not of the
01:13:37 of the um not of the delamination spooling no and
01:13:45 yeah the the combustibility part i would have thought would have been assessed before you know being sent out on a particular project yeah so when we received the materials to be used on a project i
01:13:58 the materials to be used on a project i would have assumed that this work had been checked previously yeah
01:14:05 now a little further down if we pick up in the third paragraph there under key issues it says that a surface spread of flame classification does not refer infer any resistance to combustibility
01:14:18 infer any resistance to combustibility it is solely a measure of the spread of flame across the surface do you see that yes again did you understand that at the time you were working on the grenfell project no that wasn't something that was
01:14:30 no that wasn't something that was as far as i'm aware i wasn't made aware of that until i went to university
01:14:36 did you understand that surface spread of flame classifications might be referring to class naught or national class naught i just understood that class naught
01:14:47 i just understood that class naught meant that it wouldn't catch fire okay and then there's some bullet points under that paragraph and it says this
01:14:58 paragraph and it says this thermo-setting insulins rigid polyurethane foam boards do not meet the limited combustibility requirements of adb table a7 and so should not be accepted as
01:15:09 a7 and so should not be accepted as meeting adb to paragraph 12.7 do you see that there yeah
01:15:13 yeah again were you aware at the time of the project
01:15:17 project that thermo-setting insolence didn't meet the limited combustibility requirements and so should not be accepted as meeting um parts of the adb guidance no
01:15:28 um parts of the adb guidance no i'm just wasn't looking at this kind of thing i was focused on fabrication and structural design were you aware that thermosetting
01:15:40 were you aware that thermosetting insulins
01:15:41 insulins such as pir poly isocyanurate foam or phenolic foam were not of limited combustibility and therefore were only compliant if included as part of a cladding system
01:15:52 if included as part of a cladding system tested to br one three five and eight four one four no it wasn't for the same reasons mentioned before
01:16:01 did you ever apply your mind to whether the insulation at grenfell tower was of limited combustibility no did you ever seek any assurances that the insulation was of limited
01:16:12 the insulation was of limited combustibility no did you ever apply your mind to whether the installation at grenfell tower had been tested to bl-135 and bs-8414
01:16:23 bs-8414 i don't remember no
01:16:32 were you aware that any such testing referred to the complete assembly and it referred to system testing as opposed to the testing of one component no
01:16:46 um and finally under this um same section um there's a bullet point there right at the very bottom it says the br135 bs8414 test
01:16:57 bottom it says the br135 bs8414 test deals solely with the spread of fire once it has entered the cavity hence the requirements for cavity barriers in accordance with section 9 of adb2 are required in all cases including
01:17:08 are required in all cases including around
01:17:09 around openings in the facade do you see that there yes
01:17:13 there yes were you aware that there was industry guidance at this time which specifically drew attention to the importance of including cavity barriers around
01:17:24 of including cavity barriers around openings in the facade no it wasn't i was aware that you needed cavity barriers and on other projects we've been involved with we drew elevations that showed where we were
01:17:36 elevations that showed where we were intending to put the cavity barriers and they'd be sent off to the consultant for them to approve or add additional ones where they thought they were necessary okay thank you mr chairman i think that
01:17:48 okay thank you mr chairman i think that would be an appropriate moment for a break
01:17:50 break yep all right thank you thank you wellness thank you james we'll have a break now
01:17:55 break now um we'll take a quarter now we'll come back at 25 to 4. while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it
01:18:06 evidence or anything to do with it all right you'd like to go with the usher she'll look after you thank you thank you very much
01:18:14 [Applause]
01:18:23 all right 25 to 40.
01:36:18 yes would you ask the witness to come back in please thank you
01:36:26 [Applause]
01:36:38 right ready to carry on yes sir that's right thank you yes that's great yes thank you mr anchor jones so we were looking before we broke at the
01:36:46 at the building control alliance guidance um from june 2014 that you were sent in april 2015 by mr room yes and i want to go back to that and
01:36:57 yes and i want to go back to that and look at page two of it so there's a cep three zeros five seven two nine four and look at page and we can see here that
01:37:07 that what it does is set out different options
01:37:11 options um three routes to compliance with paragraph 12.7 of adb and we have option one option two and then at the bottom of the page option three
01:37:21 three do you see that there yes were you aware at the time of the grenfell project that there were in general terms these different
01:37:29 different options for complying with the guidance to the building regulations
01:37:36 i think the only one that was aware of was the desktop studies by the fact that we submitted others on other projects to the fire consultants for approval
01:37:48 to the fire consultants for approval and were you aware of what that desktop study report was showing what was that trying to demonstrate it was
01:37:57 was demonstrating that it was compliant by using fire engineering rather than testing i see so option one was to use materials of limited combustibility for all elements of the
01:38:09 combustibility for all elements of the cladding system above and below 80 meters you see that there
01:38:14 there yes um option two was an acceptable alternative approach is to submit evidence that the complete proposed external cladding system
01:38:25 proposed external cladding system has been assessed according to the br135 criteria
01:38:31 criteria by 8414 testing do you see that there yes
01:38:35 yes and then option three is the desktop study report from a suitably independent ucas accredited body stating whether in their opinion the bl-135 criteria would be met
01:38:46 criteria would be met with the proposed system do you see that there yes
01:38:49 there yes in general terms were you aware of the distinction between system testing and the other route which was about
01:38:58 was about individual products being for example of limited combustibility were you aware of that distinction now
01:39:11 were you aware of that distinction now in respect of option two did you ever make any investigations as to whether a specific bs 8414 test had been done using the system specified for grenfell
01:39:23 for grenfell no because i wasn't involved in that part i was involved in the structural design
01:39:34 in respect of option three did you or anyone else make any investigations as to whether a desktop study had been undertaken on the system that had been specified for grenfell
01:39:46 that had been specified for grenfell not as far as i'm aware
01:39:51 so you're not aware of any desktop study being commissioned in respect of the grenfell tower project no
01:40:00 do you recall taking any steps yourself to ensure that the system at grenfell tower satisfied one of these three options for demonstrating compliance
01:40:12 demonstrating compliance no because my responsibility was to do the structural design whose responsibility was it within harley
01:40:20 harley to ensure that the sys the the cladding system
01:40:23 system satisfied one of these options for compliance
01:40:29 at that time as we had no technical manager
01:40:33 manager it would have fallen to the senior designer
01:40:36 designer to the senior management so who would that have been at the time in harley would have been the directors which would have been um mark stapley and ray bailey
01:40:47 um mark stapley and ray bailey and mark harris do you have a recollection of them actually considering the compliance of the grenfell tower system with
01:40:59 of the grenfell tower system with relevant
01:41:00 relevant guidance at the time do you remember them doing that no
01:41:07 did you ever raise the question of what route to compliance you were adopting with anyone at harley no because i was just looking at structural design or anyone else on the
01:41:18 structural design or anyone else on the project studio e or ryden no
01:41:23 can we look at your first main witness statement um at paragraph 33 this is har three zeros 10149 page eight
01:41:34 three zeros 10149 page eight apparently yeah paragraph 33 you say there the version of building control alliance's bca technical guidance note 18 available at the time
01:41:43 the time june 2014 version was also misleading and offered a way of circumnavigating the requirement of paragraph 12.7 of approved document b through option three this third option
01:41:56 through option three this third option allowed a desktop study to be carried out do you see that there yes can you just explain to us in what way
01:42:02 way this technical guidance note 18 was misleading in your view
01:42:10 i just from my knowledge now i see it as
01:42:17 open to interpretation you'd get different
01:42:20 different fire consultants comparing results from other tests and making different different um conclusions
01:42:31 conclusions from that and to me that um isn't clear enough if
01:42:35 enough if two fire consultants can come up with different opinions it's not clear it must be misleading you've you started the answer by saying from my knowledge now
01:42:46 from my knowledge now does that mean that at the time of the grenfell project you didn't consider this guidance misleading no i didn't
01:42:54 didn't know about this guidance at that point
01:43:01 and you talk about um it offered a way of circumnavigating the requirement of paragraph 12.7 of approved document b do you see that there yes were you aware at the time of the grenfell project
01:43:13 at the time of the grenfell project of a culture of professionals circumnavigating some of the guidance in the approved documents
01:43:22 no so what direct experience do you have of that
01:43:29 that you say offered a way of circumnavigating the requirement of paragraph 12.7 do you say that you do have direct experience of that since since leaving harley i've got experience of
01:43:42 of different manufacturers trying to put forward products that they say they have desktop studies for but they've quite often not been carried out by a ucas body
01:43:53 carried out by a ucas body and when they have been put forward to the fire consultants have been rejected i see but just to be clear that wasn't something you were aware of at the time of the grenfell project
01:44:04 of the grenfell project no
01:44:14 um so this was the we were just looking at the june 2014 version of the bca guidance i'd just now like to take you to a later edition of that same guidance
01:44:26 a later edition of that same guidance from june 2015. this is at cel402347 now do you have any recollection of
01:44:37 now do you have any recollection of reading this further version of the guidance at the time you were involved in the grenfell project no
01:44:47 now on page one what we can see under key issues if we go down that page and look at the bottom half of that page in the third paragraph
01:45:01 of that page in the third paragraph under key
01:45:01 under key issues we see the same sentence about a surface spread of claim classification not referring any resistance to combustibility and then in the first bullet point
01:45:12 bullet point it talks about thermo-setting insolence not usually meeting the limited combustibility requirements but it gives more examples in the in the part in
01:45:21 part in in parenthesis in in brackets in that first
01:45:25 first line do you see there it says eg rigid polyurethane poly isocyanurate polystyrene foam boards do you see that there yes and i want to ask you i know you
01:45:37 yes and i want to ask you i know you said you didn't read this guidance but were you aware at the time of the grenfell project that insulin such as polyisocyanurate pir
01:45:48 pir didn't meet certain requirements of adb no it wasn't and were you aware that uh they should only be accepted
01:46:00 they should only be accepted um as meeting paragraph 12.7 of adb if they were included as part of a cladding system
01:46:06 system tested to br 135 and bs8414 no it wasn't
01:46:17 were you aware of poly isocyanuit foam boards
01:46:21 boards at the time of the ent of the grenfell project no so if you've been asked to name some manufacturers of pir boards at the time you wouldn't have been able to tell us
01:46:34 you wouldn't have been able to tell us i don't believe so now
01:46:44 now i now want to look at the cwct um we talked about them briefly and i think you confirmed that harley was a member of the cwct at the time of the grenfell project
01:46:56 the time of the grenfell project that's right isn't it yeah i believe so it was um
01:47:02 i think the membership was dealt with by mark stapley and graham actually yeah now can we look at a document um this is
01:47:15 cel409876 and we'll need the offline version to be able to see it clearly
01:47:24 now um we're going to come back to this in the context of looking more carefully at the insulation but for now this is an entry from the celatex sales force database
01:47:36 sales force database and it relates it's not very easy to read but on the in the top right it relates to something called merit house and if you look on the right hand side at the top we can see related to merit house and
01:47:48 we can see related to merit house and then underneath it says name daniel anchored jones can you see that yeah
01:47:55 and under the comments yes that's better thank you
01:47:59 thank you and um under the comments you can see there
01:48:02 there it says met dan at the cwct members meeting do you see that there yes
01:48:11 and this appears to be an entry from [Music]
01:48:14 [Music] around october 2014 well it says last modified by mark willowby
01:48:22 willowby in on the 13th of october 2014 i think in the bottom right hand corner do you remember attending a cwct members meeting in october 2014.
01:48:35 meeting in october 2014. i don't remember do you ever remember meeting a representative of celetex at a cwct members meeting no i don't remember
01:48:50 can you help us as to what occurred at the members meetings um we used to go to talks i can't remember if they were cwct or
01:49:01 or by other um either product suppliers or just sort of general talks but i wouldn't
01:49:11 wouldn't know what this one was about were you aware at the time of the grenfell project that's that harley had access to the benefits of cwct membership including
01:49:22 membership including updates on technical training publications and certification work i think until i sort of was asked to consider training into the technical
01:49:36 consider training into the technical role
01:49:38 role i was primarily concerned with structural issues so i don't remember much about the cwct at that point i see but you wouldn't
01:49:49 at that point i see but you wouldn't have been talking to representatives of celetex about structural issues would you no no do you have any recollection of speaking to representatives of celetex at cwct members meetings no i don't
01:50:03 were you personally aware at this time that there were guidance notes produced by the cwct i i can't
01:50:13 i i can't honestly remember at what point i became aware of them
01:50:19 let's have a look at a document this is cwct
01:50:23 cwct 19.
01:50:34 so this is a document that we know was produced in march 2011 and it's entitled technical note 73 fire performance of curtain walls and rain screens do you
01:50:45 curtain walls and rain screens do you see that there yes now is this familiar to you had you seen this
01:50:50 seen this by the time you worked on the grenfell project it's familiar to me now um i can't remember when it would have become familiar to me i think that because i was primarily
01:51:02 i think that because i was primarily focused on structural stuff before becoming you know being put forward for doing the msc
01:51:10 msc i think it wouldn't have been until sort of the end of 2015 or something before i started
01:51:17 started appreciating these documents existed right
01:51:22 now if we look at the top of the um sorry no if we look at the bottom of page one and over to page two
01:51:35 this guidance begins to draw attention to
01:51:39 to different class descriptions and classifications of materials under the building regulations if we can go right down to the bottom of this page
01:52:05 can we do that it's the tech i can see it peeping out at the bottom it's text beginning in england and wales and northern ireland on the bottom right hand side of this page that's the bid i want to look at
01:52:16 want to look at there we go so it begins here in england wales and northern ireland the materials may be described as non-combustible and then if we go over the page
01:52:28 to the top of the next page page two
01:52:33 so materials may be described as non-combustible of limited combustibility or class naught
01:52:40 naught using definitions given in adb do you see that
01:52:43 see that there yes and then it says materials may also be classified as class one two three or four in accordance with bs476 parts six and seven and then it says equivalent european
01:52:55 and then it says equivalent european classifications are also used and did you have any understanding at the time of the grenfell project of the difference between non-combustible limited combustibility
01:53:07 non-combustible limited combustibility and class naught materials no i didn't were you aware of a distinction between class naught and limited combustibility
01:53:24 no now can we look at paragraph 27 of your witness statement at this point this is har3010149 at page six
01:53:44 so you say this at the time of the refurbishment the main source of guidance was and still is approved document b which is a document produced by the government the requirement under
01:53:55 government the requirement under approved document b is that the external surfaces of materials used on a building over and then if we go over the page 18
01:54:08 over and then if we go over the page 18 meters
01:54:09 meters are class naught and therefore the relevant british standard would be bs 476 also any insulation product used in the external wall construction should be of
01:54:21 external wall construction should be of limited combustibility now do you see that there yes so that's the evidence you're giving us in your witness term can we just go back
01:54:29 back a page and see what question you're answering there
01:54:35 so we're asking you was the exterior compliant with relevant building regulations fire regulations etc do we take it from that that what you're telling us is what you know now and not what you knew at the time of the
01:54:47 and not what you knew at the time of the project yeah this was from learning it on the fire and acoustics course that you mentioned before
01:54:53 before and also having actually used that knowledge
01:54:57 knowledge since in practice and do you agree with me that you don't tell us in your witness statement that you didn't know that at the time no
01:55:10 can we look at paragraph 28 which follows this paragraph of your witness statement so over on to page seven
01:55:20 so you say that in terms of industry practice at the time it was generally considered that as long as all of the components in particular the cladding and insulation were described as class
01:55:31 insulation were described as class naught in manufacturers literature and third-party certifications then this met the requirements of approved document b and was therefore compliant
01:55:40 compliant there are many buildings across the uk that have been clouding exactly the same way as the government's own figures do you see that there yes now you're saying that that that was industry practice
01:55:52 that was industry practice at the time you said that in the first line
01:55:55 line was that your understanding at the time of the grenfell project no it wasn't my understanding at the time i i was focused on structural design
01:56:06 i i was focused on structural design and fabrication detailing this is my take on it having spoken to other people in the industry and seen what has been put on buildings
01:56:19 what has been put on buildings you know in the last 10 years i thought you told us earlier today that you were aware of class naught at the time yeah i was aware of class naught it was just not in this arrangement
01:56:32 not in this arrangement so because here i'm saying that
01:56:37 of what the industry practice was but it's
01:56:41 it's looking backwards yeah but was it your understanding at the time that as long as all of the components were described as class naught in manufacturers literature and third-party
01:56:52 manufacturers literature and third-party certifications then this met the requirement of approved document b and was compliant was that your understanding at the time i don't think i had an understanding at the time i think
01:57:03 the time i think because i was focused on structural design and fabrication design i always deferred to the fire consultant for advice are you saying that you never
01:57:14 for advice are you saying that you never applied your mind at all through the grenfell project to what the classification was of for example the insulation no because i wasn't looking at the insulation i was looking
01:57:26 looking at the insulation i was looking at the structural design of the bracketry and the systems that held it on so you never thought about that at all no okay
01:57:42 so when you talk about industry practice at the time who exactly are you referring to there are you talking about cladding subcontractors architects fire engineers building control can you help us
01:57:53 control can you help us as to what you mean by that i'm talking about the whole building industry
01:58:03 does that mean it incorporates all of the bodies i was just mentioning yes so cladding subcontractors thought that at the time yes architects thought that at the time yeah
01:58:15 architects thought that at the time yeah i'm not saying all of them but a lot of them
01:58:20 [Applause]
01:58:24 and did you or anyone else at harley ever challenge that industry practice do you remember anyone saying
01:58:31 saying well actually class naught's not enough for the components we need to look deeper than that i'm not aware of anyone at harley doing that no
01:58:46 now um if we return to that cwct technical note on page two so this is cwct five zeros 19 at page two
01:58:57 five zeros 19 at page two it goes on on that left-hand column if we look at the bottom of the page please
01:59:04 please under definitions it gives definitions of a fire stop there a seal provided to close an imperfection of fit or design tolerance between
01:59:15 of fit or design tolerance between elements or components to restrict the passage of fire and smoke do you see that there yes and then it talks about the difference between integrity and insulation and then at the top of the next column
01:59:29 we can bring the top of the page up on the right
01:59:34 then we get the definition of a cavity barrier a construction to close a concealed space against the penetration or spread of smoke or flame do you see that there yes now were you aware at the time of
01:59:48 yes now were you aware at the time of working on the grenfell project that there was a distinction drawn in industry guidance and other practical guidance between fire stopping and cavity barriers
01:59:59 fire stopping and cavity barriers i think at that time i was just aware of fire breaks which encompassed both of them
02:00:05 them and that you'd need to put different ones
02:00:09 ones on depending on what you were told by the fire consultant so if i'd asked you at the time do you know what the difference is between a fire stop and a cavity barrier what would you have said i wouldn't have
02:00:22 what would you have said i wouldn't have known the difference between the two now moving on to page four of this guidance
02:00:31 guidance under the heading cavity barriers in rain screen construction which is in the bottom right hand column there we go so there there's a a paragraph that
02:00:42 so there there's a a paragraph that reads fire and smoke spread in rain screen cavities is particularly dangerous
02:00:46 dangerous as it may be more rapid than on the outside face of the cladding due to the creation of a flu and it may be undetected by building users or firefighters it is therefore often necessary to
02:00:57 it is therefore often necessary to incorporate cavity barriers in rain screen cavities to limit the spread of fire and smoke do you see that there yes were you aware at the time that fire and smoke spread
02:01:09 at the time that fire and smoke spread in rain screen cavities is particularly dangerous
02:01:13 dangerous i was aware that it could spread behind this
02:01:16 this rain screen and i was i thought that it just needed to be stopped so that the firefighters could tackle the actual fire what was your
02:01:28 tackle the actual fire what was your understanding as to the role of cavity barriers within a rain screen cavity
02:01:35 to stop that spread of fire where it could go without the firemen being able to see where it would go and was that within the cavity itself and the outside wall or or were you also aware cavity barriers
02:01:47 or were you also aware cavity barriers were required to stop the fire breaking out and into the rain screen cavity i was aware that they were required i think from other projects um we'd base
02:01:59 other projects um we'd base like i said before we created elevations showing where they were going to go and the fire consultant would usually draw on where you needed additional ones
02:02:10 additional ones yeah i didn't understand where they were required
02:02:17 yeah now this note goes on to say under regulations that there we have at the bottom of page four for rain screen walls adb requires that cavity barriers are provided and then if we go over to page
02:02:29 provided and then if we go over to page five
02:02:31 five we see there a bullet point at the top that says to close the edges of cavities including around window openings do you see that there yes were you aware at the time that there was specific industry guidance that
02:02:43 was specific industry guidance that emphasized the importance of closing the edges of cavity barriers including the edges of cavities including around window openings no
02:02:57 did you know in general terms that window openings had to be protected in terms of the spread of fire on your projects
02:03:04 projects no
02:03:08 and then we can see at page six
02:03:13 if we go to page six and look under the heading use of combustible material on that left-hand column we see in the second paragraph it says to satisfy the recommendations in adb
02:03:24 to satisfy the recommendations in adb insulation and filler materials in walls of a building with a floor more than 18 meters above ground level are required to be of limited combustibility do you see that there yes and just to be clear
02:03:36 yes and just to be clear you weren't aware of that guidance at the time of the grenfell project is that right
02:03:41 right because i was focused on structural design and these things i would always pass on to for the fire consultant because i wasn't trained in it
02:03:52 because i wasn't trained in it right and the guidance further down that um column if we look at the bottom of that page
02:04:04 yeah so if we look at the paragraph that's just above the heading alternative approaches it says that the only commonly used insulation material that will satisfy the definition of limited combustibility
02:04:16 the definition of limited combustibility is mineral wool do you see that there yes
02:04:19 yes again were you aware at the time of the grenfell project that the only commonly used insulation which satisfied the definition of limited combustibility was mineral wool no were you aware in general terms that
02:04:32 no were you aware in general terms that mineral wool was the safest type of insulation to use in terms of fire performance
02:04:40 i can remember at the time there was lots of
02:04:43 lots of talk about um other installations but i didn't know where wasn't aware that and that they weren't approved for over 18 meters
02:04:54 weren't approved for over 18 meters but i didn't realize that mineral wall was the only one that was
02:05:00 so you remember at the time there was lots of talk about other installations and that they weren't approved for eight over 18 meters can you remember what kind of installations you're talking about there
02:05:12 installations you're talking about there no just remember that it was always something that you needed to get signed off by the fire consultant
02:05:21 i see now can i ask you to look again at paragraphs at page six of this guidance and at the bottom is the heading alternative
02:05:32 at the bottom is the heading alternative approaches and then at the top of the right hand column if we go back to the top
02:05:36 top of the page so it's under that heading it says this where testing is carried out in accordance with bs8414 the test applies to the complete cladding system including insulation
02:05:48 cladding system including insulation rain screen flashings and cavity barriers changing any of these components may affect the ability of the wall to resist the spread of fire now is that something that you were generally aware of at the time
02:06:01 generally aware of at the time no i wasn't aware that you had to do a
02:06:06 yeah i wasn't aware of that so you weren't aware that the test would apply only to the complete system including all those details that were tested and that changing any of that system
02:06:18 system might affect the ability of the wall to resist the spread of fire you were not aware of that i don't think i was even aware there was a test
02:06:26 a test on other projects i'd always just submit the drawings and the material data sheets to the file consultant for approval but we looked earlier
02:06:37 for approval but we looked earlier and we'll come back to it again at the email you sent to mr room in 2015 where you're asking about the bs 8414 test when you say i wasn't aware there was even a test
02:06:49 there was even a test can you explain that it it was just something so outside of what i did in structural engineering that if it was requested by a client or
02:07:00 that if it was requested by a client or fire consultant you pretty much copy and pasted what they're asking for because they knew what they're asking for so you weren't aware even in general terms it was something that was a system test
02:07:14 that was a system test for fire
02:07:18 it's hard to separate out what i know now having done the degree and practiced it between what i knew then
02:07:36 can we look at paragraph 30 of your witness
02:07:39 witness statement this is har3010149 at page seven
02:07:44 seven thank you and you state there so so you're asked the question to the extent that it was compliant with such regulations legislation british standards guidance etc any of those inadequate and if so in
02:07:56 any of those inadequate and if so in what respects so far as relevant to the nature and immediate causes of the fire and it's spread
02:08:01 spread and then you say this with hindsight i believe that the guidance and the legislation is absol absolutely not adequate as far as i'm aware there was no
02:08:12 as far as i'm aware there was no guidance from any official bodies such as the
02:08:14 as the center for window and cladding technology cwct and the society of facade engineers that these materials should be avoided it is still impossible for either the cwct or the sfe to offer any guidance as
02:08:27 cwct or the sfe to offer any guidance as the government has still not made the necessary changes now focusing on that first part you say as far as i'm aware there was no guidance from any official
02:08:38 guidance from any official bodies such as the cwct but do you agree given what we've just looked at that guidance was available from the cwct regarding the risks associated with
02:08:49 regarding the risks associated with combustible materials including pir poly isocyanurate insulation yeah what i mean is that they just shouldn't not be allowed
02:09:00 they just shouldn't not be allowed anything
02:09:02 anything you know with a b rating or worse and just should not be allowed over 18 meters
02:09:08 meters they should have been banned is that what you're saying yeah but would you agree with me that there was guidance warning about the risks associated with combustible material
02:09:20 combustible material including pir insulation
02:09:25 i just don't think it was looking back on it now
02:09:28 on it now i don't believe it was strong enough i think the guidance you know allowed for a way to
02:09:37 you know for it to be signed off or approved
02:09:42 approved and i just don't look at it now with the experience that i have and the education i have
02:09:47 i have i don't think that it should be put on buildings but just to be clear i think you've said you didn't read the cwct guidance from march 2011. is that correct
02:09:58 correct back then i hadn't read and you didn't read the building control alliance guidance in june 14 or june 15. no
02:10:09 can you help us as to why you weren't aware of that cwct guidance when harley was a member of the cwct
02:10:18 for me i was looking at structural design and not facade design so i wouldn't have been sent these sort of things they weren't
02:10:29 sent these sort of things they weren't they weren't circulated as far as i'm aware they would have come into graham clear or mark stapley
02:10:40 we'll see later and i'll take you through in detail that you had a lot of dealings with celetex during the project um why were you having those dealings with celetex if
02:10:51 with celetex if none of this was part of your remit and it was all mark stapley and graham hackley's remit because in the
02:11:02 remit because in the celtex his rep's previous role he'd been dealing with me on structural issues with the company that he'd worked with before we formed a relationship so he used to
02:11:13 we formed a relationship so he used to come in
02:11:13 come in and sit down and talk about things but generally i didn't have the background or the training to talk about fire related matters or anything else to
02:11:25 fire related matters or anything else to do with side engineering apart from the structural side at that point so as with the other things i'd pass anything that i didn't know about through to you know relevant consultants who did
02:11:38 you know relevant consultants who did graeme
02:11:39 graeme hackley had left harley by the time of the grenfell project hadn't he yeah so in terms of mark stapley we aren't aware of any communications where you say to mark stapley
02:11:50 you say to mark stapley i don't have this experience i don't have this expertise on fire please can you help me we don't see that do we in your email communications
02:12:01 communications do you recall ever sending such emails to mr stapley no but they were fully aware of what my area of expertise were i think
02:12:13 now i want to ask you briefly about harley's contractual duties on the grenfell tower project just briefly did you yourself read the letter of intent and appendices
02:12:25 the letter of intent and appendices that were sent to harley by ryden and which formed part of the relationship between the two
02:12:32 companies
02:12:36 as design manager was it important for you to understand the nature of your contractual responsibilities to ensure that harley's work complied with them
02:12:52 my responsibilities as design manager were to make sure that the designers were working to program and so the parts that would have been relevant would have been the program
02:13:03 would have been the program i wouldn't have read the contract did you understand that harley was responsible for ensuring that the design of the facade was compliant with the relevant compliances
02:13:15 relevant compliances and statutory requirements which would include the building regulations no i didn't does that mean you positively thought it was somebody else's responsibility not harley's
02:13:28 else's responsibility not harley's to be ensuring compliance of the facade design with the building regulations i think my understanding at the time on all projects was that it wasn't harley's responsibility so
02:13:39 responsibility so you put forward your designs to the design team and building control who would check it and confirm whether it was
02:13:49 it was compliant or not did you ever check that assumption with anybody did you ever say can i just check are we responsible for making sure this complies with the building regulations
02:14:00 complies with the building regulations never checked that but i did on other projects that i worked on i would check that it had been approved
02:14:10 were you aware that some of the subcontract conditions that were imposed in the contract with ryden required harley to notify ryden if there were any
02:14:22 harley to notify ryden if there were any discrepancies between the design of the work shown in the employer's requirements and the statutory requirements including in the building regulations no i wasn't aware of that
02:14:37 were you aware that as the specialist subcontractor you ought to warn either the main contractor or the lead designer studio e
02:14:45 studio e if there was a deficiency in the design in terms of compliance with the building regulations no i wasn't aware of that
02:14:56 were you aware that it was part of harley's role to check whether the products that had been proposed in the employer's requirements including the nbs specification were compliant with the building regulations and
02:15:07 with the building regulations and associated guidance no i wasn't aware of that
02:15:13 were you ever made aware of any concerns at the time being raised about whether the design was compliant with the relevant regulatory requirements including the building regulations
02:15:26 did you understand that the conditions that were imposed by ryden on harley included a liability for design work to the standard of an architect or other appropriate professional
02:15:37 or other appropriate professional designer holding themselves out as competent to do the work sorry i don't understand yes sorry it's a long question did you understand that the conditions that were imposed by
02:15:48 the conditions that were imposed by ryden on harley included a liability for design work to the standard of an architect or other appropriate professional designer holding themselves out as competent to do the work
02:16:00 competent to do the work sorry can you summarize that in a way that i literally were you were aware that
02:16:05 that harley's work had to meet the standard of an
02:16:08 of an architect's work in terms of the facade design
02:16:14 design or had to meet the standard of another appropriate professional designer holding themselves out as competent to do the facade design
02:16:26 did you understand the provisions of the main contract between the tmo and ryden were incorporated into harley's subcontractor subcontract in so far as they related to
02:16:37 subcontract in so far as they related to the design of the facade
02:16:42 did you understand that the intention of the subcontract was that harley should take on the design responsibilities in relation to the external cladding works that ryden had undertaken to the tmo under the design
02:16:54 undertaken to the tmo under the design and build contract sorry that's another long one yeah sorry did you understand that the intention of the subcontract was that harley would take on the design
02:17:05 would take on the design responsibilities in relation to the external cladding work that ryden had undertaken to the tmo so in effect did you understand that he was sitting in ryden's shoes
02:17:16 sitting in ryden's shoes so far as it concerned the design of the the cladding and the external wall no
02:17:25 did you ever take the opportunity to inspect the main ride and building contract
02:17:31 now we know that this was a jct design and build contract that was the ryden's contract was design and build how familiar were you with design and build projects
02:17:43 build projects from a contract's point of view or projects point of view how many of the projects you've been involved in i think we're design and build for my part i've
02:17:53 part i've never had any dealings with contracts at all and so probably at that point in my career wouldn't have been aware of what contracts work design and build or work design and build
02:18:04 design and build you wouldn't have been aware of what was meant by design and build i don't think so no
02:18:13 did you understand at the time you were working for harley on the project that the architect and other design consultants were not retained by the tmo through to completion of the construction and handover of the building
02:18:27 did you understand that ryden had taken on responsibility for the entire design and construction of the works
02:18:36 did you understand that because ryden would not have itself expertise to design and construct every element of the works it would appoint specialist subcontractors for particular elements
02:18:50 and that those subcontractors would be liable for the design and construction of that particular element of the works did you understand that
02:19:00 were you aware whether ryden had in place
02:19:03 place a process to supervise the quality of the work that harley was doing on the project the quality of the install the quality of the design on every quality of the
02:19:14 the design on every quality of the design
02:19:14 design really is what i'm thinking of my understanding at that point would have been that they would pass the information that we sent them through to their design team to approve and that would have been how
02:19:26 to approve and that would have been how they maintained the quality i see so you weren't ever made aware of ryden independently checking or looking at the design
02:19:42 was it your understanding that harley's contract
02:19:45 contract required it or subcontract with ryden required it to consider the nbs specification which had been part of the employer's requirements i wouldn't have known that that was in the contract but i knew that it was
02:19:58 the contract but i knew that it was on every job we're given the specification i knew that on this job it was an mbs specification we'll come and look at the nbs specification later but um were you aware in general terms that there was something called the nbs specification
02:20:10 something called the nbs specification on the heart on this project the grenfell project yeah
02:20:15 yeah were you aware that harley's work had to comply
02:20:18 comply with a specification produced by curtin's consulting which was tight entitled structural performance specification for the design supply and application of overclouding
02:20:30 supply and application of overclouding systems to grenfell tower no i thought the only one we had to comply with was the nds specification can we just look at that curtains consulting document this is a rt50914
02:20:49 so does this help in any way you didn't think you'd seen the specification now you can see this front page does that trigger any recollection of seeing this at the time no i can't remember
02:21:01 time no i can't remember seeing this before
02:21:06 i just want to have a look at a couple of items in here if we go to section six on page
02:21:11 on page nine
02:21:17 we can see that the contractor is expressly required to consider and then just at the bottom of that page can you see three items up it says the need for effective fire barriers do you see that
02:21:28 effective fire barriers do you see that there
02:21:29 there yes were you aware that that was part of harley's responsibility to to consider the need for effective fire barriers we would have um known that we needed to
02:21:43 we would have um known that we needed to put fire barriers in we just wouldn't have known necessarily where they needed to go we've relied on the fire consultant to tell us as with other projects i'd
02:21:54 tell us as with other projects i'd worked on
02:21:55 worked on and then if we look on at page 11 of this specification item 7.1.13
02:22:05 we see there it says this the system should comply fully with the recommendations of the bre document fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-story buildings
02:22:16 buildings second edition 2003. do you see that there yes
02:22:21 and also it says in the paragraph below that
02:22:24 that 7114 the system shall not be a fire risk at any stage of installation nor shall it constitute a fire hazard after completion if for any reason the insulin becomes exposed
02:22:36 becomes exposed do you see that there yes now looking back at 7113 in that bre document
02:22:44 document were you familiar at the time with that bre publication br135 no
02:22:56 let's just turn to that this is a
02:23:02 bre-405554
02:23:13 if we go to page two we see the front page of it this is the second edition of that document it was dated 2003
02:23:26 and again just by looking at that can you recollect whether you ever saw that at the time of the grenfell project no i only became aware of this document when i went to bath for the msc
02:23:39 so you wouldn't have been aware of any of the guidance in this document about the risks posed by external thermal insulation in walls and
02:23:50 external thermal insulation in walls and multi-story buildings no i wasn't taught it until i'd left the company
02:24:08 can we just look at a couple of bits of this guidance mr tamara i quite like just to finish this topic if that's okay i can do that within the next five minutes well if you can do it in five minutes of course
02:24:19 minutes of course thank you so on page seven there's reference to and a picture from the garnet court fire in irvine
02:24:25 in irvine which is a fire in a multi-storey building you can see there's a discussion of that there and then there's a picture below that do you ever remember seeing
02:24:37 that do you ever remember seeing anything about the garnet caught fire in irving
02:24:40 irving at the time of the grenfell project no i don't
02:24:51 can i look at pages 17 and 18.
02:24:58 under the heading at the bottom of 17 external panel non-combustible materials and materials of limited combustibility do you see that there yes and if we go over to the top of page
02:25:11 yes and if we go over to the top of page 18
02:25:17 so if we pick up three lines down so this is talking about metal panels it says they may also generate large pieces of falling debris if the integrity of the fixings to the railing system is lost during the fire
02:25:29 railing system is lost during the fire metal panels such as aluminium may fall from the system if the strength of the fixings is affected by the local fire source they may also melt generating molten
02:25:40 they may also melt generating molten metal debris if exposed directly to the sustained flame envelope do you see that there yes now were you aware you say you didn't
02:25:48 didn't see this guidance you weren't aware of it where you in general terms of those kind of phenomena in terms of metal panels such as aluminium
02:26:01 were you aware of this melting generating molten metal debris if exposed directly to the sustained flame umbrella were you aware of that in general terms yeah from doing the structural degree i
02:26:12 yeah from doing the structural degree i was aware that aluminium has a much lower melting temperature than steel and with the temperatures creating the fire
02:26:23 fire aluminum will melt
02:26:27 now the version of this document that was um
02:26:31 was um closest in time to the grenfell fire is the 2013 the third edition of br135 if we can pull this up at
02:26:46 cel403364 again that so there's the front page it's the
02:26:58 that so there's the front page it's the third edition it was dated 2013. and it was by sarah colwell and tony baker does that front page help in terms of whether you saw this version the third edition at the time of
02:27:09 version the third edition at the time of the grenfell project i i recognize it now but i don't believe i saw it then
02:27:18 can we look i want to have a look at page 22
02:27:21 page 22 just one piece of this at the moment paragraph 6.4.1 page 22.
02:27:29 page 22. the last paragraph
02:27:37 yes so it's on the right hand side there and it's the paragraph beginning combustible panels are typically and it's immediately before 6.4.2 and i just want to read that it says
02:27:49 and i just want to read that it says combustible panels are typically based on vinyl or glass reinforced plastic although various new products are being developed in this area some of which also contain insulation
02:28:00 some of which also contain insulation materials
02:28:02 materials these products generally have good surface spread of flame characteristics to prevent rapid fire spread across the surface of the system but once the panels become involved in the fire they have the potential to
02:28:13 the fire they have the potential to generate falling debris add to the overall fire load and provide a route for fire to propagate up the outside of the building do you see that there yes now again i know you say you didn't
02:28:25 yes now again i know you say you didn't see this at the time but were you aware in general terms that there were various new combustible panel products being developed at this time some of
02:28:37 being developed at this time some of which contain insulation materials that could have those characteristics in terms of generating falling debris adding to the fire load and providing a route for fire spread at the outside of
02:28:48 route for fire spread at the outside of the building were you aware of that no the only thing i was aware of is that they would melt
02:28:56 would you agree with me now looking at that that this paragraph appears to be warning about precisely the kind of products like acm that are combustible
02:29:07 combustible that might generate falling debris add to the overall fire load and lead to the propagation of fire up the external envelope of the building yes mr term and that's a good moment
02:29:20 yes mr term and that's a good moment well it's very good timing well done thank you from the strength to tell james
02:29:24 james that's enough one day i think we'll break there i'm gonna have excuse me i'm gonna have to ask you to come back with some more questions tomorrow please so
02:29:34 so we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow and please remember what i said to you earlier very important that you don't discuss your evidence or anything related to it while we're out of the room while you're out of the
02:29:46 out of the room while you're out of the room
02:29:47 room all right yes sir so we'd like to give the usher with you 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you
02:29:51 thank you thank you
02:30:02 good thank you 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:30:49 you