Harley Evidence - Tuesday 15th September 2020 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:19 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing from mr ankertel jones so would you ask the witness to come back into the room

00:00:42 please

00:00:46 good morning mr uncle jones good morning sir are you ready to carry on yes good thank you very much it's great yes thank you good morning mr anchor jones

00:00:56 jones um first what i want to do is just follow up on a number of the answers that you gave to my questions yesterday and you were asked about membership of the cwct

00:01:07 the cwct and whether you had attended a cwct members meeting in october 2014. do you remember that yesterday yes and you said

00:01:16 you said i can't remember what it was on or whether it was cwct or not that's what you said yesterday yes now in fact

00:01:25 in fact what we can see from the documents we think is that you did attend a cwct agm and members meeting on the 7th of october 2014 at which mr jonathan room of celetex was

00:01:37 at which mr jonathan room of celetex was also present i want to just pull up a document this is cel401037

00:02:06 cel401037

00:02:13 is it coming up on the screen well we've got it on the screen ah it's not on my screen sorry um my screen is blank right perhaps we need perhaps we should get that sorted out

00:02:26 have you got it sorry can you see you've got energy

00:02:33 oh really

00:02:38 well don't get don't get worried about that

00:02:43 there it is

00:02:54 do you want to take a break are you still playing yeah the screen is blank uh my screen so i can't see the documentation no you can't ask questions it's a slight hindrance my memory is good but not that good sorry about this from strength tell

00:03:05 sorry about this from strength tell jonesy we get these occasional very occasional

00:03:16 blips

00:03:43 thank you very much indeed sorry about that thank you no no i go gather you've got it now we've got it now thank you right thank you so we can see from this document that uh it says cwct adm and members meeting

00:03:55 uh it says cwct adm and members meeting on tuesday the 7th of october 2014. do you see that there at the top yes and i just want to identify where you are first under the members list on the left hand side if we go down

00:04:07 list on the left hand side if we go down to the bottom of the page we can see if you look the seventh line up from the bottom i think with there is

00:04:18 up from the bottom i think with there is your name daniel anchor jones harley curtin wall limited do you see that there

00:04:22 there yes and you're also there with mr mark stapley

00:04:25 stapley underneath do you see that there of harley as well yes and then if we go back to the uh sorry staying with this bottom page uh bottom part of the page can you see there on the right it says

00:04:37 see there on the right it says non-member jonathan room celetex limited do you see that there yes so this we think is the meeting at which you met a member of celetex and that would appear to be mr room

00:04:48 appear to be mr room um does that sound right to you yeah yeah and if we look at the top back at the top of this document for the meeting

00:04:59 document for the meeting we can see that the speakers include second

00:05:02 second person down on the left sarah colwell of the bre do you see that there yes now her talk was entitled fire testing experiences and appeared to

00:05:14 fire testing experiences and appeared to go into considerable detail on fire testing for facades including bs 8414 and br135

00:05:21 and br135 we have the slides for that talk and i want to show them to you if we can bring up cel401038

00:05:34 so if we could zoom in to start with on the top half of that page

00:05:40 so we can see there that top left slide the talk was called fire testing experiences at the cwct technical meeting

00:05:51 at the cwct technical meeting and this seems to be dated the 10th of october

00:05:54 october 2014 dr sarah colwell do you see that there

00:05:58 there yes and then underneath we can see the objectives of the talk incidents mechanisms of external fire spread

00:06:06 spread fire testing for facades interpreting data and summary and questions now looking at this now can you remember seeing that presentation at that cwct

00:06:17 seeing that presentation at that cwct meeting

00:06:19 meeting no i can't remember seeing it this is not jogging any kind of memory in terms of

00:06:24 of no being present i think because i was focused on structural design at that point that's where the focus of my cpd

00:06:35 that's where the focus of my cpd and continued learning was focused so without having this the basis for a lot of these sorts of

00:06:46 the basis for a lot of these sorts of subjects

00:06:47 subjects it probably didn't mean as much as the other things so i can't remember seeing it you can't remember seeing it do you think you might have been present at the

00:06:58 think you might have been present at the the talk and just not not concentrating on it because it wasn't your remit or are you saying you weren't present at all i can't remember i think i might have been there and not

00:07:10 i might have been there and not concentrating because it wasn't what i was trained in and not part of my remit

00:07:15 remit just picking you up on that as a structural engineer wouldn't you have to have

00:07:19 have some knowledge of fire risks and of fire performance to perform your role as a structural engineer

00:07:28 engineer yeah of the structural components and what they were required to do in a fire

00:07:34 fire for the for the facade it wasn't required to not melt and that's basically where a structural

00:07:46 structural um and what an infrastructure engineer will look at is if there are any fire requirements from that point of view as if there's you know sometimes we design

00:07:56 design facades that are to stop fire from passing from one side of the facade to the other side like a fire rated curtain wall in that instance the bracketry and

00:08:07 in that instance the bracketry and things i'd be designing would have to have

00:08:10 have a fire resistance and you might have to specify a steel bracketry to make that work but for a facade like the one that was on grenfell there aren't those requirements

00:08:22 there aren't those requirements wouldn't as a structural engineer you'd be interested in whether the facade materials might promote the spread of fire across the walls so what i was doing it was to

00:08:32 was to make sure that it could stay on the building for the time that was required and resist the loads that was required so you'd be looking at how much the panels weighed i see can we just look on within this

00:08:45 i see can we just look on within this presentation um section two is about what is a facade if we just go down further down this page there's a list there about what is a

00:08:57 there's a list there about what is a facade and then the third topic appears to be examples of external fire spread and if we go to the next page of the presentation we can see there's a number of um

00:09:09 we can see there's a number of um fire spreading building envelopes examples that are provided there's noseley heights which is in liverpool in 1991 beijing stoke in 1992 and then if we go

00:09:22 beijing stoke in 1992 and then if we go one further down at the bottom of this page

00:09:25 page yeah we also then in the bottom left have the irving the garnet caught fire which i asked you about yesterday so that that fire was referred to in this presentation i mean again these

00:09:36 in this presentation i mean again these are fairly um they're striking images aren't they these pictures of facade fires can you explain why you don't remember those from this cwct

00:09:48 conference i can't explain why i don't remember

00:09:52 remember either i was

00:09:55 sitting somewhere else or not sitting in the room or i don't know they're not bringing back any recollection for you of having attended this um

00:10:07 attended this um and then if we look at the top of the next page page three

00:10:13 we can also see that there's reference to other cladding files internationally there's reference to a fire in dijon france in 2010 and then a whole list of recent high-rise external cladding fires

00:10:26 high-rise external cladding fires including towers in dubai the murmats ruby

00:10:30 ruby in france in may 2012 other dubai cladding fires a russian one istanbul turkey again um just in general terms

00:10:42 turkey again um just in general terms were you aware that there had been instances of cladding fires internationally at this time

00:10:51 i don't believe so no you don't believe so well i'm trying to cast my mind back you know seven years i can't i can't remember knowing about them at

00:11:03 i can't remember knowing about them at that point can you remember when you did become aware of international cladding fires um probably when i went to the msc in bath where they in the

00:11:15 the msc in bath where they in the fire course they covered a lot of these subjects there and when would that have been exactly i know it was after you left harley um

00:11:28 know it was after you left harley um um i think middle of 2016 right yeah and then if we look at the bottom

00:11:39 yeah and then if we look at the bottom of this page we've got a section on mechanisms of far spread including vertical fire spread and we can see there in fact these are some extracts from the diagrams you get in br 135 about

00:11:50 diagrams you get in br 135 about the mechanisms of fire spread externally and if you see on that bottom right hand slide

00:11:57 slide there's reference there to flames extending five to ten times the original length so flame elongation now yesterday you said you weren't aware of that phenomenon prior when you were working on the

00:12:08 prior when you were working on the grenfell fire again does this help as to whether or not you might have known about that at this time in 2014 no as i said yesterday my knowledge of that time was that you were always trying to stop

00:12:21 that you were always trying to stop unseen fire spread so the fire brigade could focus on the fire where it was originating it from but the the concept of flame elongation was you were positive that's not something

00:12:32 you were positive that's not something you were aware of is that right no it was just that the fire could spread behind the panels and they wouldn't be able to see it yeah and then topic six if we go to the next

00:12:44 next slide is about fire testing and in particular sarah colwell has focused on full-scale system tests in this presentation including

00:12:56 tests in this presentation including 8414 tests and we get a number of images which give a demonstration of that type of testing if we can look down again at the next set of slides

00:13:09 set of slides there you can see there's reference to the test duration how long it runs for what the system is do you see that there yes and again is

00:13:21 do you see that there yes and again is this bringing back any memories in terms of

00:13:23 of whether you were aware of these system tests i think yesterday you said you were barely aware that there was an 8414 test

00:13:30 8414 test yeah does this help as to whether or not you had more knowledge than that in 2014 i don't believe i did as i said before is focusing on

00:13:41 as i said before is focusing on the structural design and on other projects that i worked on would always send this information off to the fire consultant because i haven't had any training in it okay we'll come back to the fire

00:13:52 okay we'll come back to the fire consultant later um just saying with this presentation if we can keep going um down this slide we get more information about the bs 8414 test and the testing method

00:14:05 8414 test and the testing method um there's a full-scale video clip of an external cladding fire test that appears to have been shown as part of the presentation we see that in the bottom right hand corner and then if we carry on

00:14:18 and then if we carry on there's information about the what information is recorded as part of these tests the output from them

00:14:27 them and then again if we can keep going

00:14:32 we get a summary of the classifications of performance and there's reference there to br 135 in the bottom left hand side do you see that there yes and we see the front page of the

00:14:44 and we see the front page of the of the publication that was the 2013 third edition of br135 that's in that bottom slide so again does this help us to whether you were aware of br135 at this time in october 14 i was

00:14:58 at this time in october 14 i was people mentioned it for you know saying that

00:15:02 that certain things have passed the br 135 test on other projects but because i wasn't trained in it i would always send it off to people who are

00:15:15 right were you aware that bl-135 was relating to a system test like this a

00:15:22 a a mock-up on a wall as per these photographs no i don't think i was

00:15:30 and then if we look at the very bottom of that page six um there's reference to the the failure criteria

00:15:40 criteria [Music]

00:15:41 [Music] sorry we get the failure criteria actually in that top right box external fire spread internal fire spread it explains what the failure criteria are and then there's a discussion of mechanical performance in the bottom

00:15:53 mechanical performance in the bottom left-hand side and it indicates that details of any system

00:15:59 system burn through collapse spalling delamination or falling debris should be included in the test report do you see that sentence there yes now again yesterday when i asked you you said you weren't aware of spalling

00:16:12 you said you weren't aware of spalling and delamination as a a feature of rain screen performance in fire

00:16:19 fire and does this help you as to whether or not in fact you may have been aware of those concepts the only concept i was aware of at that point that was that aluminium melted at quite a low

00:16:31 aluminium melted at quite a low temperature compared to steel and so that in a fire you know there's a good chance that the facade could melt and fall off yeah now

00:16:44 yeah now we've got some information about what mr room's

00:16:47 room's kind of takeaway points were following this day

00:16:51 this day and the day generally and i just want to look at an email an internal celetex email this is cel401255

00:17:06 now if we can blow up the

00:17:10 top half of that yes so um this is not an email you would have seen at the time this was an email from jonathan room to a large number of his colleagues within celetex

00:17:20 celetex dated the 21st of october 2014 and he's reporting back and saying hi team as some of you may know i recently attended the cwct members meeting up in london

00:17:32 london and then he explains what the cwct is

00:17:37 and then he explains what the reason for attending was in the next paragraph and he says i met a number of people during the day and i have attached a list of attendees who

00:17:48 have attached a list of attendees who you may want to follow up so that was the list that we looked at at the beginning this morning and then he says this in the next paragraph the day was a mix of opinion and fact

00:17:57 and fact and a lot of the opinion was pretty one-sided the use of non-combustible materials

00:18:02 materials only and he's put those in capitals a lot of people that i spoke to afterwards disagreed with a lot of what was said do you see that there yeah so we can see that his

00:18:13 that his takeaway point or one of his key takeaway points that he's reporting back to colleagues on is that there should be non-combustible materials

00:18:22 materials only in such facades do you see that yes now can you recall whether that was a point you came away with following that conference

00:18:35 with following that conference that material should be non-combustible only

00:18:38 only i i can't remember anything in relation to that conference do you remember any discussions about whether people agreed with whether non-combustible materials

00:18:50 with whether non-combustible materials only should be used remember discussions during the conference about compliance no okay were you involved in any such discussions for example with mr room

00:19:01 discussions for example with mr room no i i wouldn't have i can't remember being there to be honest but if i was i i wouldn't have had the knowledge to be able to

00:19:13 be able to cast any opinions on it after attending an event like this what would you do say with the the pack that you get at convert the slides what was your practice in terms of reporting back to colleagues at harley

00:19:25 reporting back to colleagues at harley was that something you routinely did now when i go to them and the slides are usually sent out by email and i usually pass them on to my

00:19:37 and i usually pass them on to my colleagues back then i think because it was

00:19:43 not directly connected with them and more focused on structural design i would leave that to mark who to send them out

00:19:54 mark who to send them out did you ever check with him that he sent out that material i i can't remember this conference so would you agree looking at it now that that was pretty important material for

00:20:05 that was pretty important material for cladding subcontractors cladding designers to be aware of yes if as you say your remit was so narrow and limited to structural considerations can you explain why you

00:20:17 considerations can you explain why you were attending a cwct event of this nature including such wide-ranging topics no i can't

00:20:29 now um just picking up on some other points about your role from yesterday were you ever provided with a written job description while you were at harley

00:20:41 job description while you were at harley i think probably when i very first started with the in my first role i would have there would have been a job description that i was applying for but not to my

00:20:52 that i was applying for but not to my knowledge after that so when you were promoted to the role of design manager do you recall getting a revised job description when when that happened we had some more designers in the office

00:21:04 designers in the office um and mark stapley was my line manager when there became more designers

00:21:15 more designers needed have a way of trying to keep a track on

00:21:18 track on their program and making sure that they were keeping to their programs so it was my responsibility to do that but it was never any more formally discussed than that i

00:21:30 any more formally discussed than that i see

00:21:32 see now um mr bailey's evidence was that graham hackley left harley at the end of 2012 and beginning of 2013. and you said yesterday that you weren't

00:21:43 and you said yesterday that you weren't made technical manager until the end of 2015

00:21:47 2015 beginning of 2016. can you help us as to who fulfilled the role of technical manager at harley for the period between 2013 and 2015. there wasn't one

00:22:00 who at harley had responsibility during that period for ensuring that the designs of cladding systems complied with the building regulations

00:22:13 building regulations for the projects that i worked on i would always pass it back to the client and the design team working under the client for them to

00:22:25 working under the client for them to confirm

00:22:26 confirm so i'd send them the drawings to check on the responsibility to make sure that happened in the business as a whole i think would fall

00:22:37 business as a whole i think would fall to the directors so on the grenfell project can you help us as to who that was who were you passing it back to who was the design team that you were asking to check for compliance

00:22:48 asking to check for compliance i wasn't passing it back to anyone because i wasn't producing any of the design

00:22:53 design for this structural design i would pass it back to um i can't remember who was in ryden at the time and asked that it was verified by their structural engineer so

00:23:05 verified by their structural engineer so who was producing the designs for grenfell

00:23:08 grenfell and who was that being passed back to so kevin was producing the designs and he would have been passing that back to ryden and their design team i think

00:23:23 ryden and their design team i think now i want to look at a passage from the transcript yesterday

00:23:28 when you say passing it back to ryden and their design team who did you understand to be ryden's design team

00:23:35 i think at the time my involvement was so limited that it's only from looking back on it now but i always understood that there was an architect a fire consultant building control

00:23:47 a fire consultant building control it would have been the client's design team

00:23:51 team why do you say building control was part of the design team was that building control's role i think quite often building control inputs into

00:24:02 quite often building control inputs into design and checks design they don't report to ryden but you know even in the past you know sort of three years building

00:24:13 you know sort of three years building control usually are shown a lot of the design in the process

00:24:18 process for them to comment on and to confirm that it complies

00:24:23 and that was your understanding at the time was it that building control was part of the design team i my understanding at the time would have been the same as all the projects that i had worked on

00:24:35 projects that i had worked on was that the our client would be passing that information on to building control to check but yeah building control

00:24:47 to check but yeah building control wouldn't be reporting to the client

00:24:52 they wouldn't be reporting to the client did you just say okay

00:24:58 just going to something else from the transcript yesterday if we can pull this up so this was day 35 page 202 line 10.

00:25:13 so i was asking you there were you aware that it was part of harley's responsibility to consider the need for effective fire barriers and this is where i was asking you about the curtains consulting specification

00:25:26 the curtains consulting specification that had been included in harley's subcontract and you say this we would have known that we needed to put fire barriers in we just wouldn't have known necessarily where they needed to go

00:25:37 where they needed to go we've relied on the fire consultant to tell us as with other projects i had worked

00:25:42 worked on now i want to ask you what steps did you or harley have in place to that you were aware of to ensure that you got full advice

00:25:53 you got full advice from the fire engineer on the grenfell project

00:25:56 project on the grenfell project i couldn't tell you

00:25:59 you um on other projects i would always make sure that i had sent the fire break elevations to them and i'd always had confirmation

00:26:10 to them and i'd always had confirmation back from

00:26:12 back from the fire consultant that he was happy with what was shown and why couldn't you tell us who whether that happened on the grenfell project if you were the design manager for the

00:26:23 if you were the design manager for the project because i was just making sure that

00:26:25 that kevin was keeping to program and occasionally he'd send me things i'd pass through to ray to check as well but i think that was only at the very early stages

00:26:37 very early stages later once i was you know back folk well just having to keep my workload on other projects i think kevin just went directly to ray kevin went directly to ryden right so

00:26:50 kevin went directly to ryden right so ray oh i see was kevin ever told um you need to make sure you've got proper fire engineering input

00:26:57 input for your designs this is who you go to did you ever have that discussion with kevin no

00:27:04 kevin no but you were line managing at the time is that correct i think that at the beginning i was for a couple of months and then

00:27:15 for a couple of months and then i was told to focus on other projects so i had to

00:27:18 i had to keep up with the likes of the trinity square project and once there was a project manager appointed he would have been reporting to him i see well i'm going to come back a little bit later and just have a look at the extent

00:27:30 later and just have a look at the extent to which you were inputting into supervising kevin lam so we'll we'll park that for now um just on the cdm regulations now

00:27:40 what did you understand your duties under the construction design and management regulations to be during the grenfell project at that point

00:27:50 point i i wouldn't have had any understanding were you aware that as a designer you would owe duties to your client and duties when preparing or modifying a

00:28:01 and duties when preparing or modifying a design

00:28:02 design under the cdm regulations

00:28:06 not under the cdm regulations i would have

00:28:09 have realized that there was a duty to keep them informed and get things approved

00:28:17 approved but that was mainly to do with other projects

00:28:21 projects did you ever have an awareness on the grenfell project that you would be categorized as a designer under the cdm regulations not on the grenfell project no

00:28:32 were you ever involved in any design risk analysis or design risk assessments as part of a cdn process

00:28:40 process in on the grenfell project not only grandpa project now

00:28:45 at the time of the grenfell project did you have an understanding about the health and safety file under the cdm regs and what was required in relation to that

00:28:52 to that not on the grenfell project no did you understand that harley would have to make significant contributions to that health and safety file under the cdm regulations not on the

00:29:03 under the cdm regulations not on the grenfell project no when you say not on the grenfell project have you become aware at a later stage of your obligations under the cdn regulations yes yeah was that when the new regulations

00:29:16 yeah was that when the new regulations came in

00:29:17 came in in 2015 or was that um after that no that was in training that i've had after leaving harley i see did you have any training

00:29:28 i see did you have any training with harley about the cdn regulations no okay

00:29:34 now the next topic i just want to explore is um to consider briefly what involvement you and harley had in the design process prior to being formally appointed on the

00:29:45 prior to being formally appointed on the project yes um and i want to turn to start with a document

00:29:50 document art 401487

00:29:59 and what this is just to be clear you're not copied in here but this is an email from mr soon of studio e on the 27th of september 2013

00:30:08 2013 to a number of individuals at the tmo max fordham etc about the grenfell project reporting back on a meeting with harley curtin wall this morning do

00:30:19 with harley curtin wall this morning do you see that in the first in the first line so as we met with harley curtimore this morning to discuss the project they are very keen i've been tracking the project for some time they are specialists

00:30:30 are specialists in this type of project they pointed to ferrier point as being very similar to grenfell

00:30:36 grenfell and then mr sims has recorded a number of

00:30:39 of um key points arising from that meeting um do you recall were you present at any point during that meeting

00:30:48 no now it would appear that potential costings were discussed at that meeting you can see from point two um and and indeed point one

00:31:01 um and and indeed point one um do you remember ever being involved in discussions about costings prior to the appointment no can we now turn to a document later in

00:31:12 can we now turn to a document later in time november 2013. this is

00:31:16 har406011

00:31:23 now this is an email if we blow it up from mark harris on the 7th of november 2013 to thomas wreck at studio e but copying in ray bailey and mike alveston and others bruce soon

00:31:36 and mike alveston and others bruce soon mark harris at harley you're not copied in here

00:31:42 and in the bottom paragraph of that email mr harris um says this in the second sentence of that last main paragraph i have to

00:31:55 of that last main paragraph i have to say

00:31:56 say from a highly selfish point of view our preference would be to use acm it's tried and tested on many harley projects and we are confident in the cost base

00:32:05 cost base and that said we are of course an envelope contractor would be happy to clad the build and the material of choice do you see that there yes did you at the time share that preference for acm would that have been your preference

00:32:19 acm would that have been your preference as one of harley's designers i i would always go with what had been specified by the architect i didn't have any

00:32:28 any preference at all did you know that your colleagues at harley were expressing this preference at the time no you weren't aware of that at all

00:32:41 were you aware that harley was closely involved in the selection of the rayna bond cladding panels no from my point of view it was in the specification and

00:32:54 specification and it had been specified by the architect can we turn now to an email again later in time we're jumping forward to april 2014 now this is har four zeros five seven one one

00:33:13 and this is an email of the 25th of april

00:33:16 april 2014. so if we start actually with the um email at the bottom of that page from kai

00:33:28 at the bottom of that page from kai fabian k of studio e to mark harris do you see that there yeah and

00:33:35 yeah and in that email we can see what he's doing is attaching some initial drawings of how he would like the cladding to look so he says hi mark as discussed earlier please found a couple of

00:33:46 please found a couple of 3d images showing the detail we would like to achieve on the acm range screen panels

00:33:51 panels and then he goes into some detail about the column casings and then the spandrel panels

00:33:59 and then

00:34:03 if you look at the second and third last paragraphs on page one

00:34:10 page one here he asks sorry three paragraphs up there from the bottom could you please let us know if this could be done using the secret fixing system or if it has to be face fixed rivets would both fixing systems be within

00:34:22 would both fixing systems be within budget

00:34:23 budget and then he asked if face fixed what would the vertical centers of the t-rails and horizontal centers of c channels need to be if secret fix what would the vertical centers of the supports need to be do you see that

00:34:34 supports need to be do you see that yes and then scrolling up to the top email

00:34:43 and this is an email that you are copied into so this is back from mark harris to mike alveston copying you in so this is an internal harley email

00:34:57 in so this is an internal harley email saying um on the 25th of april 14 mike can you save to the file our dan will be taking a look at these on monday

00:35:06 on monday do you see that there yes now is that that's going to refer to you isn't it i'll down

00:35:10 i'll down there because you're copied in to the email is that correct yes so

00:35:16 yes so at this stage were you the person within harley with the design knowledge to provide answers to the sorts of queries that we saw in that email from a structural point of view yes and from a fabrication point of view

00:35:32 i see but again do we ever see you saying i'm only looking at this from a structural point of view did you ever say that back internally to your colleagues within harley at that point in my career it was the

00:35:45 at that point in my career it was the only

00:35:45 only training that i'd had if i had no other training in other areas that were that would make me be able to make any comment on it so you think it was implicit that you wouldn't be able to advise any abroad

00:35:56 wouldn't be able to advise any abroad more broadly than that yes you know this would have been looking at how this would work structurally and whether it could actually be fabricated into those shapes that they were asking for yeah

00:36:09 shapes that they were asking for yeah did you give any consideration to whether acm was a viable option that could be used instead of zinc for the cladding

00:36:17 cladding as far as i was aware it was only acn that is what i've never thought any differently so you were never aware that zinc was being considered for this project

00:36:29 considered for this project not like remember no

00:36:35 had you or harley ever done any assessment to determine whether the acm was a compliant material choice for grenfell tower

00:36:45 tower i wouldn't have been responsible for looking at that who do you think might have been within harley

00:36:51 harley at that point i would have thought everyone would have assumed it had been done by the consultants um and it would have been done

00:37:03 um and it would have been done you know as part of the tendering process i

00:37:06 process i i don't know really at the point at which harley became involved in the project and received the employers requirements including the nbs and drawings from studio e did you or

00:37:18 and drawings from studio e did you or anyone else at harley take any steps to investigate the work that studio e had done no did you simply adopt the work that

00:37:29 no did you simply adopt the work that studio had done and start detailed design or did you interrogate the work that studio had done in order to check it for compliance

00:37:40 we would have adopted it on you know on the basis that they had done all the checks beforehand yeah now moving forward again in the

00:37:52 yeah now moving forward again in the chronology this is may 2014. if we can go to har 405786

00:38:03 so if you can blow up that top email

00:38:07 so this is mark harris 29th of may 2014 to deborah french copying and others and you are copied into this email mark harris says hi deb we'll need your

00:38:18 mark harris says hi deb we'll need your assistance when you get back from hulls see attached and there's a mock-up draft in in the attachments and then they say we had a very positive meeting on site yesterday with the ryden team

00:38:29 on site yesterday with the ryden team and the architect ryden are coming to us on monday the 9th of june to talk about the contract is it possible for you to provide a response do you see that there yeah were you present at that meeting on

00:38:40 yeah were you present at that meeting on site so if it was yesterday per the email it would have been on the 28th of may 2014 with ryden and the architect you recall whether you were present at that point i was

00:38:53 at that point i was not ever involved in any estimating or work winning i wasn't until 2016 i started to make that move across

00:39:04 2016 i started to make that move across so no i don't believe i was you don't have any recollection of going to site in may 2014 no and um as we just noted that mr harris

00:39:16 and um as we just noted that mr harris attracts as a mock-up to that email and were you ever provided with that mock-up sorry you were you copied into it did you ever look at that mock-up sorry

00:39:28 you ever look at that mock-up sorry no

00:39:32 now if we go to har5 zeros 9768

00:39:39 9768 again moving forward in time this is now the 6th of june 2014.

00:39:46 sorry har 5 0's

00:39:54 978

00:39:58 yeah so this is an email from mark harris at the top of the page to mike alveston cc'ing you

00:40:09 to mike alveston cc'ing you on the 6th of june 2014 and we can see that what mark harris has done is forward an email from simon lawrence

00:40:16 lawrence sent on that same day which is below do you see that there yes and what simon's

00:40:23 simon's lawrence has done in that email is to clarify conversations between us all and put some action points into that email and i want to look at the third bullet

00:40:34 and i want to look at the third bullet of this

00:40:35 of this he says bruce to send highly drawing autocad file of the mock-up draft so highly designed team can turn into working drawing this is then to be approved by bruce do

00:40:46 this is then to be approved by bruce do you see that there yes now is mr harris forwarding you that email at the top because you were part of the harley design team at this time

00:40:57 i was part of the highly designed team i don't know why he's affording it though you were part of the design team but you

00:41:08 you were part of the design team but you don't know why he's forwarding it yeah why why are you puzzled as to why he was forwarding that email if you were part of the design team

00:41:20 if you were part of the design team sorry the question was was he forwarding it to you because he was part of the design because you were part of the design team i was part of the design team but i don't know why he was sending it to the design team

00:41:33 design team i don't understand what why why don't you know why he was sending it to the design team

00:41:41 so hard times he turned into working drawing

00:41:45 drawing okay so bruce is to send the highly drawing autocad file of the mock-up so the harley design team can turn into a working drawing so he's recording a number of actions and this

00:41:56 recording a number of actions and this one is an action for studio e to send the harley autocad file of the mock-up to harley yes and then mark harris is making if you could look at the top of the page

00:42:09 to the email it's just forwarding it

00:42:14 sorry we've just lost that if we go yeah if we can look at the top of this page what's happened is mark harris has sent it to

00:42:25 it to mike alveston and they cc'd you

00:42:33 and so my question is i think you've answered you were part of the harley design team at this time yes um but just one more time why did you not understand why this was

00:42:44 why did you not understand why this was being forwarded to you i i think i just was not reading it correctly okay

00:42:55 do you know whether the harley design team considered the combination of the exterior components of the external facade at this point in terms of their compliance don't

00:43:12 in terms of their compliance don't believe so no and and why would that have been why not because it wasn't a a one job yet i don't think that we were probably

00:43:24 i don't think that we were probably getting requests from mark harris to look at this or look at that you know look at the structural design look at the

00:43:32 the um look at producing a mock-up um you know we were just responding to his requirements

00:43:42 i see we weren't having an overall look at it yet

00:43:46 at it yet did the harley design team consider fire performance and compliance with fire safety standards at this point no let's turn on then later in time to august 2014

00:43:59 later in time to august 2014 um if we can go sea three zeros one one six

00:44:02 six eight one

00:44:06 this is an email dated the 27th of august 2014 from neil crawford to kevin lamb and simon lawrence and you're copied in together with bruce soon do you see that there at the top

00:44:21 and although you're only copied in can you see that the it's addressed to kevin and daniel in that first line so it appears to be addressed to you do you agree

00:44:32 addressed to you do you agree yes and we can see that he's proposing a call

00:44:37 call with the two of you so kevin daniel following my initial observations i've expanded the comments slightly and marked up the drawings attached as i think this will be easier to discuss over the phone with the comments in front we'll call tomorrow

00:44:50 front we'll call tomorrow morning to discuss as agreed regards neil and we can see that the subject is grenfell tower preliminary cladding drawings for comment

00:44:58 comment and attached to that our preliminary drawing set comments do you see that there

00:45:03 there yes now can you remember did that call go ahead with mr crawford the following uh following this email sorry he says he's going to call tomorrow morning to discuss do you

00:45:14 discuss do you remember that no i don't i don't remember

00:45:19 remember really speaking to neil at all so i don't know if he liaised directly with kevin

00:45:24 kevin so you don't recall ever speaking to mr crawford during the the grenfell project i don't recall now did you ever meet with him face to face

00:45:35 did you ever meet with him face to face i think

00:45:36 i think at the towards the end of 2014 i went to [Music]

00:45:45 [Music]

00:45:45 one or two design meetings he may have been present there

00:45:51 as the design manager were you providing design input in order to progress the project at this stage so this is 27th of august 2014. no i wasn't providing any design input

00:46:03 no i wasn't providing any design input it was

00:46:04 it was basically making sure that kevin was keeping to program and making sure that probably make sure that ray was happy with what he was producing

00:46:17 with what he was producing did you ever have a discussion with mr crawford or anyone else at studio e about whether studio e considered it their responsibility to check the drawings of the facade for compliance with the building regulations

00:46:29 with the building regulations no did mr crawford or anyone else at studio e ever say to you we're only checking your drawings for architectural intent

00:46:37 intent i were not checking for compliance no did you ever tell anyone at studio e that you or anyone else at harley including kevin lam were take were

00:46:49 including kevin lam were take were taking responsibility for checking that the drawings were compliant no and what was your understanding at the time of whose responsibility that was on the project

00:47:01 as with the other projects i would have assumed that was the responsibility of the architect to make sure that the design was compliant and

00:47:09 and the building control to check that design to sign it off

00:47:16 what about ryden did you understand that ryden were checking the designs that harley produced no i didn't you didn't understand they were doing that no so did you have a positive awareness

00:47:29 no so did you have a positive awareness that they were not checking them

00:47:34 i didn't have an awareness that they were or weren't it just would have been normal for the architect to be checking them and building control to be signing them off

00:47:48 now if we turn to paragraph 12 of your witness statement this is har3010149 at page 3.

00:47:58 there what you do in that paragraph is you explain what the different riba stages of work were you were explaining it by reference to the new riba

00:48:09 to the new riba stages which are numbered as opposed to the old ones which were letters a b c d if you remember and i just want to look at what you say at the very bottom of that paragraph in the last

00:48:20 of that paragraph in the last three lines you say therefore the harley project designer would have nothing to do with concept design material selection or positioning of the components

00:48:31 components do you see that there yes but would you accept based on the exchanges i've just shown you that this is not correct and that in fact on the grenfell project hardly did have a significant input into the concept

00:48:43 a significant input into the concept design and material selection including prior to its appointment

00:48:51 can we go back to those documents

00:48:57 well it's where i was showing you about harley expressing a preference for acm material which is one of the alternatives in the nbs specification do you accept that

00:49:08 nbs specification do you accept that harley played a significant role in terms of the choice of that material i think at the time i wasn't aware of that

00:49:16 that i see so i can say that

00:49:22 they were having any effect on the concept design

00:49:29 can i ask you to look um at kevin lam's witness statement at paragraph 63 this is har3010419 at page 16.

00:49:45 page 16. if we can blow that up

00:49:50 so in this paragraph 63 sorry if we just could look at the top of the page yeah thank you in this paragraph he's explaining about how the infill panels the window infill panels

00:50:01 infill panels came to be selected do you know what i mean by that when we talk about infill panels they were the the white panels in between the windows or the panel which housed the extractor fan

00:50:10 fan in the kitchens okay do you recall that not really but okay understand your explanation um and he says this in the very end of that paragraph the use of the kingspan tp10

00:50:22 paragraph the use of the kingspan tp10 for p2 was my decision as i have used this product over many years without issue now the p2 panel was the one that has the kitchen extract fan

00:50:33 the kitchen extract fan for the kitchen windows

00:50:38 you see him saying that there yes the use of the kingspan tp10 was my decision as i've used this product over many years without issues now before i ask you any questions about that i just want to show you another

00:50:49 that i just want to show you another document this is a copy of the harley specification if we go

00:50:55 har403866

00:51:02 so this this this was the harley specification notes for the external wall and what we can see is we've got some text and then

00:51:13 text and then we can see someone's put some red annotations on it do you see that there yes and if we focus on the left hand side we can see that for the glazing p1

00:51:24 side we can see that for the glazing p1 panels they're the main window infill panels

00:51:27 panels the original author has put the core 24 millimeters of kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you see that there yes and somebody has then annotated in red

00:51:38 red 25 millimeter styrofoam next to that do you see that there yeah and also for the p2 panel there's a comment as above do you see that there yes now um

00:51:50 do you see that there yes now um are you aware that the red handwriting was mark stapley's handwriting i wouldn't be able to say whose handwriting it was [Applause]

00:52:02 [Applause] so our understanding is that mr stapley made these annotations in red for the styrofoam panel um

00:52:12 now just looking at that and looking assume i'm right on that and that this is mr sapley's writing and bearing in mind kevin lam's evidence that he specified the the tp10

00:52:24 the the tp10 do you agree with me that some decisions as to what materials to use in the facade were being made by harley during the project if if that is by mark stapley then yes

00:52:35 if if that is by mark stapley then yes i'd agree with you

00:52:38 and the kevin lam the choice of the tp10 insulation originally do you agree that was kevin's decision to use that product i wouldn't know whose decision it was

00:52:51 i wouldn't know whose decision it was but um

00:52:51 but um [Music]

00:52:56 i would have thought all the materials were should have been selected from the mbs specification but do you agree that that's an assumption that you're making and that we actually need to look

00:53:07 and that we actually need to look closely at the documents to tell us in fact who was selecting the materials

00:53:16 yeah the statement from kevin is saying that some materials were being selected by

00:53:28 some materials were being selected by members of harley we're by him yeah yeah and he was the project designer wasn't he yes

00:53:35 he yes now i want to ask you some questions now about the appointment of kevin lam

00:53:40 now if we can go um to paragraph 10 of your statement first this is har three zeros 10149 page two

00:53:53 and there you say this you say in respect of the grenfell project i was temporarily made lead harley contact for ryden the main contractor at the end of july beginning of august 2014

00:54:05 of august 2014 this was because no one else was available ryden was told i was the project designer however this was only intended to reassure them whilst a project team was pulled together

00:54:16 pulled together my primary role was to appoint an external designer as i did not have the capacity

00:54:21 capacity to take on the project and then you say it was not unusual for harley to bring in external designers to work on projects

00:54:29 projects where there was not enough internal design resource and this happened on a number of projects do you see that there yes now just going back and looking again at that paragraph at the bottom of

00:54:40 again at that paragraph at the bottom of the previous page and i just want to ask you about the phrase you've used there this was in only intended to reassure them i ride in whilst a project team was pulled together can you explain exactly what

00:54:53 together can you explain exactly what you mean by that

00:54:55 i think they wanted to make sure there was somebody in harley who was available to work on the project ryden did

00:55:04 ryden did yeah yeah do you remember who was it at ryden that wanted to know that no i don't this was i mean mark harris was

00:55:12 was dealing with ryden fully um and just needed to put a name against the project and so far as you were aware did it in fact have the effect of reassuring

00:55:23 fact have the effect of reassuring ryden

00:55:27 did ryden appear to you to be comforted by the fact that you were being named as the project designer i had very little to do with them at

00:55:34 them at that point so i don't know now if we can then look at an email from mr harris dated the 31st of july 2014

00:55:45 mr harris dated the 31st of july 2014 to simon lawrence at ryden this is

00:55:50 har405916

00:55:56 so if we can blow up the top of that page

00:56:00 page so this is mark harris to simon lawrence copying in a number of individuals harley and ryden and you are copied in here we can see that

00:56:11 copied in here we can see that and um he says hi simon lead designer will be dan ankertel jones with brother sam coordinating in the drawing office we

00:56:22 coordinating in the drawing office we are yet to appoint a project manager but rob will advise on this in due course

00:56:28 now that we are officially underway could i suggest that emails regarding the design phase are sent to dan but copy to rob and sam and then i will deal with the commercial items with zach do you see that there yes so do you agree that this told ryden

00:56:41 yes so do you agree that this told ryden that

00:56:42 that you and sam would be involved with the design of the facade yes and you would be the lead designer yes was that your understanding at the time that that would be your

00:56:53 time that that would be your role no i was under the understanding that it was literally just a temporary stop

00:56:57 stop gap because i was far too busy on another project and was that because harley didn't have the adequate design resource at the time to cover the grenfell project

00:57:08 grenfell project yeah which why we brought in external resource

00:57:11 resource yeah can you remember how long it was before you appointed kevin lam he said in his statement he was appointed in july stroke august 14. that's a paragraph 11 of his

00:57:23 august 14. that's a paragraph 11 of his statement do you can you help when he came on board i think it was almost straight away because i didn't have the time to look at it or work on the project so

00:57:36 look at it or work on the project so he had to be brought in you know immediately

00:57:42 so was there a project designer before kevin lam was appointed i don't believe anyone did any actual design work before kevin started right

00:57:55 kevin started right now if we go to another email um a little bit earlier than this just to see the back the backstory to this this is har406153

00:58:15 and if we go um this is an email chain from the 19th of june 2014 but i want to start with the email at the bottom of page one

00:58:25 so mark harrison would pick that up at the bottom thursday night thanks to g mark harris to rob maxwell copying in ray bailey and then if we go over the page to the top of page two

00:58:38 we can see that he's saying rob to keep you in the loop contract stuff is starting to hit us now on the grenfell tower front some of the items below and attached are for estimating see that there in the first paragraph

00:58:50 first paragraph yes and then he says so he says however there are many items which need looking out by our proposed grenfell house construction team and therein lies the problem we don't

00:59:01 and therein lies the problem we don't bleep

00:59:02 bleep have one do you see that there yes so he's he's saying he doesn't have a proposed grenfell house construction team

00:59:11 team and then he says in the next sentence to say i'm concerned about this is an understatement do you see that there yes and then the substantive paragraph just before

00:59:22 the substantive paragraph just before the bottom the last thing i want to do is walk away from the job not least because it would severely damage our relationship with ryden and worse still potentially leave the door open for tim lovell and co however unless we

00:59:33 for tim lovell and co however unless we can

00:59:33 can gear up and service it we are doomed to fail

00:59:37 fail did you see that there yes now were you made aware of mark harris's concerns at the time you're not copied into this email but were you aware how concerned he was about resourcing the grenfell project

00:59:49 the grenfell project i don't think so

00:59:53 you don't think so

00:59:57 just describe the office at harley is it an open plan office or is it were you were you separated out at that point it was um there was sort of like two

01:00:08 um there was sort of like two two offices so they would it was all on one floor but there were sort of a corridor down the middle right and

01:00:20 mainly the design team were in the in one office and everyone else was in another office and then ray had his own office i see so you wouldn't necessarily be aware of what

01:00:32 wouldn't necessarily be aware of what some of the commercial team was saying no

01:00:35 no then if we look at mr maxwell's reply at the top of page one of this string um we can see that he says mark to mark

01:00:46 um we can see that he says mark to mark harris

01:00:47 harris copying ray bailey we need to get an external design team on this now do you see that there yes i can pull a project site manager within a couple of weeks and we could use neil or ben to attend a meeting

01:00:59 attend a meeting um so he's talking there about an external

01:01:03 external uh design team and is this concern regarding resources what prompted you eventually to approach kevin lam as the designer

01:01:14 i don't know if it was in response to this i just was told that we needed to get somebody in to design grenfell um i imagine that the

01:01:27 imagine that the senior management decided that it was better to get in someone external on a contract rather than employ someone new

01:01:34 new yeah um so i was just asked whether i knew anybody um we'd had a lot of problems with external design before but um harley had worked with

01:01:47 before but um harley had worked with kevin

01:01:48 kevin i'd worked for kevin he's both confident that he could produce the work that was required is it right that the only external person engaged by harley subsequently to

01:01:59 engaged by harley subsequently to service the grenfell tower project was mr lam

01:02:04 yes now based on the references in in this email string we saw in the string below this that there was reference to a needing a construction team and in this

01:02:15 needing a construction team and in this email

01:02:16 email he talks about need to get an external design team would you agree that the implication in these emails is that a team of people are more than one person would be engaged and that a single additional recruit

01:02:28 and that a single additional recruit wouldn't be sufficient to deal with harley's capacity problems usually one designer can do the detailing work

01:02:39 detailing work and another designer can do the fabrication work with depending on the program you can make it work with one um

01:02:52 you can make it work with one um i think we decided that you know just with kevin he could keep that to the program requirements does that mean that if resources hadn't been an issue you would have expected to

01:03:06 been an issue you would have expected to have had

01:03:06 have had two designers from harley working on the grenfell project no i think it was more to do with the program i

01:03:15 program i think that um if you had enough time one person could could cope with their workload were you satisfied at the time you appointed kevin lam that it was sufficient to just have one

01:03:25 have one designer on the project yes you were

01:03:33 even though you've just said usually one designer can do the detailing work and another designer can do the fabrication work

01:03:39 work you were satisfied that mr lam could do all of that i i can't remember but it's the the only reason you have somebody doing design and someone else doing the fabrication

01:03:51 fabrication is because you're really pushed the time on a program

01:03:56 can it would appear to me looking back that we must have thought that one person could meet the program requirement yeah did you think that this issue of

01:04:08 yeah did you think that this issue of design resource was being raised quite late in the project

01:04:14 i think that it's

01:04:19 i think it's quite normal to not know until the very last minute whether you're going to get an order or not and you're not never given any warning

01:04:30 and you're not never given any warning you know that an order is necessarily going to be coming or at least i wasn't so that you would you'd literally have to find resource when an order came in

01:04:41 find resource when an order came in yeah okay

01:04:44 now so sticking with the theme of kevin lam's appointment and looking at paragraph 11 of your witness statement if we can bring that up h a r 3 0's zeros 10149 at page three

01:04:58 you say there i was involved in the appointment of the project designer for the grenfell project kevin lam i had worked for him previously in his company bespoke design services i contacted him about the job he was

01:05:09 i contacted him about the job he was interviewed by others and contracted to work for harley as the project designer in around july or august

01:05:15 august 14. do you see that there yeah and you've explained already that kevin had previously worked on projects for harley that's correct isn't it yes um what was the nature of any projects he had been involved in

01:05:27 projects he had been involved in and in particular had he done any residential high-rise projects for harley before

01:05:33 my understanding was that he'd helped with the chalcott's escape that this estate project early on um with harley helped in what way can

01:05:45 um with harley helped in what way can you be more specific it helped with the design yeah they're early stages i see can you recall what process you went through to ensure that kevin lam was a suitable designer to take on the

01:05:57 was a suitable designer to take on the grenfell project

01:06:01 for myself he was more competent than i was

01:06:06 was he'd been working in the industry for a lot longer than i was

01:06:14 and then also he was known by the company

01:06:19 company so he was he understood how to do detailing and he understood how to do fabrication

01:06:26 i see now you say there as well that he was interviewed by others can we just look at mr lam's statement this is har three zeros 10419 at page three paragraph 13.

01:06:44 he says there that he attended a meeting with ray bailey the director of harley and you

01:06:49 and you on the 12th of august and then in advance he was sent some details about grenfell

01:06:57 grenfell um and he goes on and explains that um at the end of paragraph 14 that they discussed attendance at a design team meeting on site at grenfell the next day so it appears that there was a meeting

01:07:08 so it appears that there was a meeting with him to discuss the project and then he was there the next day on the project is it possible that you were mistaken in your statement about whether you actually interviewed him do

01:07:19 whether you actually interviewed him do you recall now interviewing him on the 12th of august 2014.

01:07:25 2014. i i would have contacted him before by phone we would have we'd sort of loosely kept in contact since i'd

01:07:36 since i'd left working for him so i would have probably called him about the job and discussed it what was involved what the program was and then you know would have wanted him

01:07:49 and then you know would have wanted him to have come in and meet ray so i would have seen that as

01:07:55 rather than being i knew him i didn't have a requirement to interview him so i see i'm sorry the interview has been buried right did it feel like an interview that ray did with him

01:08:07 did with him i i can't remember this meeting to be honest

01:08:10 honest do you remember whether any information was sought either by you on the telephone in advance of the meeting or at this meeting about any relevant qualifications that mr lam held

01:08:25 relevant qualifications that mr lam held no i don't you don't have a recollection of that

01:08:29 of that no do you think it's likely that someone would have asked about his qualifications

01:08:36 knowing how myself i always understood that he was um he had a degree in civil engineering um and that he'd worked in the industry for a long time it worked for

01:08:48 for a long time it worked for some of the large facade off our supplier companies and he'd had his own business for a long time right did you ever discuss with him

01:08:59 right did you ever discuss with him whether he would be comfortable working on a large-scale facade project without direct supervision

01:09:08 no

01:09:13 did you take into account that harley would have responsibility for the detailed design of the facade and therefore it was of importance that kevin lam had the knowledge and experience to undertake this task

01:09:27 the parts that i was

01:09:31 believed that we were ultimately responsible for belief that he was capable of providing did you think that the task he would be engaged in would require a knowledge of

01:09:42 engaged in would require a knowledge of the building regulations and associated guidance

01:09:46 guidance no because i thought that that would be covered by the architect and checked off by building control so does it follow that you didn't assess

01:09:57 so does it follow that you didn't assess his capability in terms of understanding of the building regulations and associated guidance around external facades no because that would be put back to the people who did have that training

01:10:14 now if we can just look at mr lam's quotation and scope of works this is a

01:10:20 har3010415

01:10:28 so this was the quotation that mr lam came up with to harley uh it's for the attention of you we see that

01:10:35 that on the left-hand side underneath the address of harley and it's dated the 12th of august and he says dan

01:10:42 says dan further to your email of 7th of august 14 and our meeting this morning please find below our quotation for design services to the aforementioned project do you see that there yes and then if we can look at page six

01:10:53 yes and then if we can look at page six and the terms and conditions that were proposed under liabilities

01:11:02 we can see point four the last point under liabilities it says all information as supplied by bespoke design and good faith should be checked for errors and general conformity do you see that there yes can you help us as to what quality

01:11:15 yes can you help us as to what quality control

01:11:16 control procedures harley had in place to ensure that kevin lam's designs were checked for errors in general conformity think from harley's point of view he was

01:11:28 from harley's point of view he was working as a harley designer so

01:11:35 the company would have been working on the

01:11:39 the presents that he was responsible for it wouldn't have done that does that mean there weren't any quality control processes in place to check kevin lam's

01:11:51 processes in place to check kevin lam's design work no no there weren't no they weren't

01:12:01 now um if we can look at another email around this time sca30115 this is an email of the 15th of august

01:12:12 this is an email of the 15th of august 2014

01:12:16 so if we can blow this up

01:12:21 uh sorry actually the one i want is at the bottom of page one and over from page two it's from you to mr lawrence on the 15th of august 2014 at 1604. do you see it beginning

01:12:32 you see it beginning at the very bottom of that page and then if we can go over to the top of page two and it's got it's cc'ing in kevin lam and rob maxwell um good afternoon simon following on

01:12:44 um good afternoon simon following on from our meeting on wednesday i would just like to confirm that kevin will be the main designer working on grenfell tower do you see that there yes and then you say we are keen to get on with the design as quickly as possible

01:12:55 design as quickly as possible and therefore we'll proceed with the champagne cassettes as discussed we are going to focus on the details around the windows which will allow us to finalize the extrusion design as quickly as possible

01:13:06 quickly as possible if you could send over the drawing submitted planning this would be a great help

01:13:10 help we want to be sure all the right specs are on the drawings to start with and get as much signed off and agreed as we can and then you've signed off on that do you see that there yes now do you agree that you haven't stated

01:13:22 now do you agree that you haven't stated in this email that you would be leaving the project or only involved from time to time no i think by stating that kevin was going to be the main designer

01:13:35 going to be the main designer it would have been clear the way the email is worded you then say we are keen to get on with the design as quickly as possible

01:13:43 possible we are going to focus on the details around the windows um wouldn't that have conveyed or weren't you just looking to convey that there was a design team and you were

01:13:54 there was a design team and you were part of that design team at this time i think it was just trying to speak as highly not as the design team

01:14:05 did you intend to give the impression that you would remain fully involved with the project no

01:14:13 did you ever explain to ryden that you would only have minimal involvement in the project going forward

01:14:23 no why was that not explained it was explained to me at the beginning by

01:14:32 by mark that it was just a stop gap and i think that

01:14:41 i thought that he would have told that to the client as well

01:14:47 i see so you're saying you assumed that ryden was told that your involvement would would diminish is that right yes if i didn't see it as my place to

01:14:59 yes if i didn't see it as my place to tell them that it would have been up to either

01:15:02 either ray or the project manager

01:15:09 did you consider that you would be able to carry out your supervisory responsibilities for kevin lam um given that you've said in your statement you would often be dipping in and out of the grenfell project

01:15:22 and out of the grenfell project yeah because my responsibilities were to make sure he was sticking to program um and if if he wasn't to try and get some help for him was it ever

01:15:35 get some help for him was it ever explained to you that your supervisory responsibility for kevin lam was limited to just the program it was what i did with all of the

01:15:46 it was what i did with all of the designers was limited to that there were designers who were more experienced than me

01:15:53 me it was never it was never stated that i needed to be checking any more than their

01:16:00 their their program requirements and that the resource was covered did you ever become concerned on the project that mr lam might be undertaking design work without adequate supervision

01:16:11 design work without adequate supervision no

01:16:16 did you consider that you had adequate and sufficient time to properly supervise the design work on the grenfell project i wasn't supervised in the design work so nobody was supervising kevin lam he

01:16:29 so nobody was supervising kevin lam he would have been reporting to the project manager he would have been in

01:16:34 in contact with managing director and the contracts manager but was anyone actually supervising the design work he was doing as the project designer

01:16:45 was doing as the project designer he he was liaising with managing director so i think he would have been

01:16:52 have been seeing his design from that point of view obviously ray bailey looked over his designs yeah yeah okay mr chairman i think that's an appropriate moment for a break that convenient yes all right well we'll have a short

01:17:05 yes all right well we'll have a short break now mr jones uh we'll come back at 25 to 12. um and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out

01:17:16 anything to do with it while you're out of the room listen thank you we'd like to give the usher

01:17:28 please [Applause] right 25 to 12 thank you

01:35:12 yes would you ask the witness to come back in

01:35:30 right strength john james we're ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes ms green

01:35:34 green yes thank you i'm going to ask you some questions now about the nbs specification on the project and then i'm going to turn to the topic of insulation which will probably take the rest of this morning um just in

01:35:46 the rest of this morning um just in terms of where we're going so on the nbs specification can we turn that up this is sca50169

01:35:54 this is the mbs specification for the grenfell project which formed part of the

01:35:59 the employer's requirements in ryden's main contract

01:36:02 contract do you see that there yes is that a document that you're familiar with i'm familiar with it now at the time i think i was only familiar with it in a very brief

01:36:13 only familiar with it in a very brief sort of passing i see let's look at um page 63 on within this document this is section 892 which begins the rain screen cladding

01:36:24 which begins the rain screen cladding section

01:36:25 section do you see that there yes and then if we go on to page 64 we can see the introductory parts um of that h92

01:36:36 um of that h92 section now is this a section that you would have read in your capacity as design manager on the grenfell project because i was only looking to

01:36:49 because i was only looking to manage kevin's time make sure he's keeping to program i would have only probably looked at this very briefly would you not have been interested to see what products have been specified

01:37:02 see what products have been specified what standards have been specified in here by the architect because i was had my own other project that i was working on would have been only a very brief

01:37:11 brief look at it now we can see in that top section which begins to be read with preliminaries general conditions the second bullet down

01:37:22 second bullet down says the manufacturers noted within this specification are indicative and may be substituted with similar or equal alternatives do you see that there yes were you aware in in general terms

01:37:33 yes were you aware in in general terms of that on the the grenfell project that the nbs

01:37:37 the nbs uh had said certainly for the cladding that the specification was indicative and that there could be substitution with similar or equal alternatives i think i wasn't aware of this on this

01:37:49 i think i wasn't aware of this on this one

01:37:50 one um the only times i would have been aware of this is if on another project that it was a performance specification rather than a prescriptive one

01:38:04 sorry the only times you would have been aware of this would be on another project that it was a performance specification rather than a prescriptive one that's what you just said yes yes so what type of specification did you think

01:38:16 what type of specification did you think the grenfell project was a prescriptive one can we look at the bottom of this uh page section 11 there it says information to be provided with tender

01:38:27 information to be provided with tender in addition to the cladding specified in the below clauses submit comparative supply and install costs for the following alternative materials and we've got rayna bond jira gloss and some finishes

01:38:40 rayna bond jira gloss and some finishes given there a luca bond spectra zinc quartz zinc panels by vm zinc do you see that there yes were you aware that the nbs specification had a main zinc panel specified but then had put in

01:38:53 zinc panel specified but then had put in these alternatives no it wasn't you weren't aware of that no

01:38:58 no do we go back to your answer that you gave previously that the only product you were aware of for the cladding was the rayna bond is that correct

01:39:07 yes

01:39:10 would you agree looking at that that um whilst it may be prescriptive in the sense that you've got some products specified there and you've got to do similar or equal alternatives

01:39:22 similar or equal alternatives it's not wholly prescriptive isn't is it it's not saying you must use this one product

01:39:27 product um as this is at the beginning i would have thought there was another section later on that said what the product should be but as this was to be provided with the

01:39:38 as this was to be provided with the tender

01:39:40 tender would have thought that this had all been done during the estimating stage i see did you analyze the design that was provided for in the nbs specification and in studio e's drawings that were

01:39:52 and in studio e's drawings that were provided as employers requirements for compliance with relevant regulatory requirements including the building regulations and associated guidance no because i was only responsible for

01:40:04 no because i was only responsible for looking after kevin's time making sure is keeping the program

01:40:09 program were you aware whether kevin lam did this as the main project designer no i wasn't would you have expected kevin lam to have done that

01:40:19 that i would have expected him to be familiar with everything in here but would have expected the compliance of the products with the building regulations to have been done by

01:40:31 ryden's design team and building control so is it right that you didn't expect that anybody within harley would have gone through the process of checking the mbs specification and

01:40:42 checking the mbs specification and studio ease drawings for compliance with the relevant regulator requirements

01:40:48 on other projects i was working on it would always be that those checks had been done by the architect and that building control had signed it off and

01:40:59 off and on those projects i would check that that had been done but on the grenfell project is it right that you weren't expecting that anybody within harley would have gone through the process of

01:41:10 would have gone through the process of checking the nbs specification and the drawings for compliance no can we just look at mr bailey's evidence from last week if we can pull up the transcript this is day

01:41:21 can pull up the transcript this is day 32 page 51 lines 4 to 13.

01:41:35 so i want to pick it up at the fourth line

01:41:38 line so this is mr millet saying to mr ray bailey um

01:41:41 bailey um just take the nbs specification okay did anybody at harley analyze the materials and products contained in the mbs specification so far as concerned the cladding to check whether it complied

01:41:52 cladding to check whether it complied with the relevant statutory requirements the answer yes question they did answer yes question who was that and the answer it would have been daniel

01:42:04 and the answer it would have been daniel do you see that there yes now can you explain why mr bailey was saying that it was your job to check that he understood you had

01:42:17 to check that he understood you had checked

01:42:17 checked the mbs specification for compliance i think that the time blinds or time frames

01:42:24 frames might be confused because at this point i wasn't

01:42:28 i wasn't educated in anything to do with these things so i wouldn't have been able to check i think it might be confusing that maybe it was after i'd attended more of the msc and

01:42:41 after i'd attended more of the msc and had

01:42:41 had studied some of these things i see so you think he's mistaken yes and you're clear are you that you never

01:42:49 never analyzed the nvs specification for compliance yes and you weren't aware of kevin lam ever doing that

01:42:58 no i wasn't aware i remember doing that no

01:43:01 no can we look at another passage from mr bailey's um evidence stay with day 32 if we go up to page pages 25 and 26

01:43:16 and i just want to pick it up [Music]

01:43:22 so um if we pick it up there maybe line 11 on day

01:43:27 11 on day page 25 how many of those employees would have been required as part of their job to consider the fire performance of specified materials in relation to any particular project

01:43:38 any particular project and the answer is in terms of what the design office generally do is if the project products have a certificate that says their class naught they rely on that so it's anybody working at the design office will look at

01:43:50 office will look at once the certificate's been looked at and the products accepted they will use it

01:43:54 it we don't look at every product every time once it's been used and been signed off we would use it on another project without

01:44:00 without and then there's a right you refer to a design office who was the design office or who comprised the design office as at 2013 to 2014

01:44:10 to 2014 and then the answer 2013 2014 it was dan was in the design office mark stapley was in the design office and there were another four designers in our in-house design office at that stage

01:44:21 design office at that stage do you see that answer yes so that line of questioning began with the question

01:44:28 question how many of those employees would have been required as part of their job to consider the far performance of specified materials in relation to any particular project

01:44:39 and it ends up with it being said that you and mark stapley as part of the design office would have been required to consider that do you agree that that was part of

01:44:52 that do you agree that that was part of your remit in the harley design office at this time to consider the far performance of specified materials in relation to any particular project so on the projects that i would be working

01:45:03 on the projects that i would be working on

01:45:03 on i would always send off the technical information from the materials to get it approved by that particular projects design team

01:45:14 by that particular projects design team and building control so you would consider it from that point of view but you weren't educated and to be able to assess it yourself i see and did you do that on the grenfell project

01:45:25 grenfell project no because i wasn't the main designer i did that on the project so i was the main designer so who would you have expected within harley for the grenfell project would have considered the fire

01:45:36 would have considered the fire performance in the limited way you've just explained i would have expected it to have been the designer to have checked the products that were going on to the building had been checked

01:45:48 building had been checked by the architect and building control and the designer there are you referring to kevin lam yes

01:45:57 do you ever recall having a conversation with mr lam that it was part of his job to be checking that the products were compliant by making sure the architect and building

01:46:08 making sure the architect and building control had checked that no how would mr lam know that that was part of his job

01:46:16 from working with him previously and having done that with him previously i would have expected him to have known that

01:46:24 that okay now if we can go back to the mbs specification if we look on page 68 at item 220. so it's sca

01:46:35 at item 220. so it's sca 50169 at page 68. and if we look there so this is still within the h92 rain screen cladding section and this

01:46:47 rain screen cladding section and this item 220

01:46:49 item 220 is headed specification and it says compliance standards the center for window and clouding technology cwct and um it then says in the second bullet

01:47:01 and um it then says in the second bullet reference information for the duration of the contract keep available at the design office workshop and on-site copies of the center for window and cladding technology cwct

01:47:12 technology cwct standard for systemized building envelopes do you see that there yes and that standard is actually referred to in several places within this mbs specification it's also referred

01:47:23 referred later in clause 310. um can i ask you just to

01:47:27 just to turn that up or can we turn that up now that cwct5046

01:47:39 this is it we know it's dated march 2008 i think um were you aware that the mbs specification on the grenfell project

01:47:50 specification on the grenfell project required compliance with this cwct standard

01:47:54 standard no so that wasn't something you picked up from reading the nbs specification yeah and it wasn't something you discussed with kevin lamb no sorry it's actually dated september

01:48:06 no sorry it's actually dated september 2008 not march 2008 that was my error and had you ever come across this document at the time of the grenfell

01:48:16 project i can't remember i became very familiar with it

01:48:22 with it during the time of doing the msc at bath i can't remember knowing much about it before then do you recall consulting this document at the time of the grenfell project

01:48:33 at the time of the grenfell project no

01:48:38 okay i want to look now at the topic of insulation and explore that in a little more detail in the process of selecting the insulation which was used on the tower

01:48:50 if we can go start with paragraph 21 of your witness statement this is [Music]

01:48:55 [Music] har3010149 at page five so paragraph 21 you say i have no specific memory of the designers my

01:49:06 specific memory of the designers my involvement in the grenfell project was rather limited most of my time was taken up with working on other projects and then four lines down you say from my reading of media reports and review of

01:49:18 reading of media reports and review of studio ian harley drawings brought to my attention i can see that it was a traditional rail system with hook on cladding panels for the rain screen and a phenolic insulation used for the

01:49:29 and a phenolic insulation used for the thermal performance do you see that there yes so does it remain your evidence that you have no recollection from the time about the products that were used and

01:49:40 about the products that were used and that you only became aware of the products being used from media reports prior to having these conversations and looking at the stuff in the media i couldn't remember i

01:49:53 stuff in the media i couldn't remember i wouldn't have been able to recall what was on the building and did that apply to the insulation that you couldn't recall what was on the building in terms of

01:50:04 was on the building in terms of insulation yes

01:50:08 now um you talk there about the the phenolic insulation being used for thermal performance in the the third line from the bottom and the

01:50:20 the third line from the bottom and the second line from the bottom there um did you realize at the time that the celetex

01:50:25 celetex product that was used as the main insulation rs 5000 was a pir insulation not a phenolic insulation so it was a polyisocyanurate insulation

01:50:36 so it was a polyisocyanurate insulation no you weren't aware of that at the time

01:50:41 and then at paragraph 22 in the next paragraph of your statement you say this in the first lines as far as the manufacture of the cladding and insulation is concerned i have no specific memory

01:50:52 specific memory of this having read media reports and material related to this is this case i understand that celetex was used for the insulation and rayna bond aluminium composite material for the cladding

01:51:03 cladding and then you also understand that ciderized products were used

01:51:10 now if we can turn back to the nbs specification at sca 50's 169 page 73 and look at item 776 at the top of the

01:51:23 and look at item 776 at the top of the page

01:51:28 sorry sca 50169

01:51:36 that's it thank you so this is the again within the h92 section of the nvs specification yes and here we can see item 776 is the thermal insulation and

01:51:49 is the thermal insulation and we can see if we keep reading down that that after the second bullet point there's a

01:51:54 there's a little indented line and then it says product reference fr5000 do you see that there yes and above that was manufacturer celatex limited do you see that there yes do you

01:52:07 do you see that there yes do you remember noticing in the nbs specification that the insulation that had been specified for grenfell tower was the celetex fr 5000 product not looking back on it i can't remember

01:52:19 not looking back on it i can't remember no

01:52:21 no and does it remain your evidence that you have no specific memory of the manufacturer of the insta insulation up until i was you know until it came

01:52:33 up until i was you know until it came out in the media i wouldn't have been able to tell you before that happened now we know that the product that was in fact used on the tower was rs 5000 a celatex product

01:52:46 rs 5000 a celatex product um do you agree that there was therefore a change in the specification from fr 5000 that we see here to rs 5000

01:52:56 yes do you have a memory of that occurring on the project there being a change in the specification between fr and rs 5000 no

01:53:09 were you aware of anyone at harley considering the suitability of the fr 5000 product for the grenfell refurbishment no

01:53:21 would you thought that was part of kevin lam's responsibility as project designer to consider the suitability of fr 5000 i would have thought it was the responsibility of the architect

01:53:32 responsibility of the architect and building control

01:53:36 does that mean that they could say put anything on the building and harley would just build it i mean how far does that go

01:53:45 generally it goes that if they put something in the specification we obtain the data sheets and submit them back

01:53:56 them back for approval and if they approve them then we believe that they're right to be used

01:54:03 used because in things like fire there wasn't anyone working at harley who was trained in that at that time wouldn't you even so if it was something structural that i understand stood more about i

01:54:15 that i understand stood more about i would challenge them on it and argue it if i believed that it was wrong but when

01:54:22 but when when it's something that you're not trained in you have to rely on the expertise of the people who are trained in it does that mean that there wouldn't even have been a cursory examination

01:54:33 even have been a cursory examination within harley of the fire performance of the material

01:54:40 not that it was required i would do it on other projects that i'd try and read it and see if it was my understanding of being compliant but i'd always refer it back

01:54:54 compliant but i'd always refer it back so did anyone do that on the grenfell project did everyone anyone do a cursory examination of the material specified for the insulation to check that it was had basic compliance

01:55:07 that it was had basic compliance i think prior to i think at the point that harley was at when this was going on this was always done early on because we had a technical manager who

01:55:20 because we had a technical manager who worked part of the estimating department who was trained in these things and i think at this point there wasn't anybody in the business who could do that

01:55:29 that so we did it individually by um satisfying ourselves as well as we could by

01:55:39 could by passing it back i don't think there was a particular company policy that you had to follow so does that mean as far as you're aware no cursory

01:55:50 as far as you're aware no cursory examination of the fire performance of these materials was done by harley not as far as i'm aware now can i just help

01:55:57 help help me with this when you say passing it back can you just explain exactly what you mean for example in relation to insulation um so you would it would be a prescriptive specification

01:56:09 prescriptive specification and you would then go and obtain the data sheets from the supplier and then you would send that to the client's design team and building control for approval

01:56:20 control for approval and the client's design team in this case being would be the architect structural engineer fire consultant and did you do that i i wasn't the design manager on it

01:56:32 i i wasn't the design manager on it oh sorry i wasn't the designer on it do you know if anyone else did that no you don't know or you know they didn't i don't know if they did or didn't

01:56:41 didn't thank you sorry did you ever tell kevin lam that it was part of his responsibilities to be doing that i think because i'd worked with him before and that was what we'd done before was under the

01:56:52 what we'd done before was under the expectation that he knew that was what was required i see let's look at a document now relevant to the insulation this is cel401237

01:57:09 so this is an email from jonathan room of celetex to ben sharman at harley curtin wall on the 6th of august 2014.

01:57:20 on the 6th of august 2014. so this is before kevin lam's appointment yes when you are holding the fort is that right on the project

01:57:27 project you're holding the fort at this point aren't you on the design work on the grenfell project august 2014

01:57:36 july uh yeah i'm not sure when kevin when we were talking to you yes but yeah i was holding the thought as you put it so

01:57:46 put it so um in the email we can see that jonathan room

01:57:49 room says to ben sharman hi ben good to speak to you again i have the pleasure informing you as of yesterday we have now launched the first pir board to successfully meet the performance criteria in vr135 for insulated

01:58:02 criteria in vr135 for insulated rain screen cladding systems therefore acceptable for use in buildings above 18 meters in height i would like to come into the office when everyone is around to present formally the new product in the meantime if you would like me to

01:58:14 in the meantime if you would like me to run any uval calculations please let me know

01:58:16 know kind regards jonathan do you see that there yes now were you um aware before this time that the rs 5000 product was going to be launched

01:58:26 launched do you have any aware awareness of that no did jonathan room come in and formally present the new product to harley

01:58:39 i can remember that he used to come into the

01:58:42 the office quite a bit

01:58:46 i can remember that he used to come in and check

01:58:50 and check that grenfell was still using um the celtx product um i can't remember him specifically doing

01:59:01 i can't remember him specifically doing a presentation

01:59:04 so you can't remember when any such presentation might have happened no i mean i was working a lot at trinity square and wasn't always in the office i was based in london quite a lot

01:59:15 in london quite a lot do you have a recollection of actually being present when mr roon came in to present the new product

01:59:21 product i i don't remember any presentation though

01:59:26 we can see at paragraph 23 of your witness statement if we pull this up this is

01:59:31 this is har3010149 page six

01:59:36 paragraph 23 you say in relation to the use of celetex i do remember a representative of celetex visiting harley's offices a number of times to discuss the celetex product

01:59:46 product i cannot remember exactly what he said but i do remember that part of the celetex sales pitch was that celetex could be used on buildings over 18 metres tall i also remember the bright pink celetex

01:59:57 i also remember the bright pink celetex brochures which were handed out do you see that there yeah now um can you remember which celetex representative it was who visited the harley offices a number of times

02:00:08 harley offices a number of times it was jonathan room yeah and um approximately how many times do you think he might have come in to discuss the celetex product with harley

02:00:24 he used to come in every couple of weeks so

02:00:29 so you know over you know a year it would be you know maybe sort of 30 times or something okay so quite frequently

02:00:41 okay so quite frequently yeah i mean he did before as i said before before working with celetex he worked for a different company that was more

02:00:48 more aligned with what i did as a structural engineer

02:00:52 engineer and you know i can't actually remember the

02:00:55 the point at which he changed companies but we used to you see him quite a bit so approximately how long had you known him for as a 2014 can you

02:01:07 as a 2014 can you remember you say you knew him at a different company hilty that he was at before yes it was and is that the company you knew him at yes and can you remember how long

02:01:19 yes and can you remember how long before you'd known him for a number of years because in my role you know carrying out the structural design had to specify the structural fixings and

02:01:31 more often than not specify hildy yeah and had you had a close professional working relationship with him on on previous projects yes you knew him

02:01:42 on previous projects yes you knew him well

02:01:42 well yes

02:01:46 were you aware when you were working on the grenfell project that celetex fr 5000 and rs 5000 were marketed as different products but were in fact comprised of the same

02:01:59 but were in fact comprised of the same materials

02:02:02 i don't think until i don't think i was overly aware that

02:02:08 i wouldn't be able to look back and say that it was called rs 5000 so i had no knowledge that there was two different ones so does it follow that um you never

02:02:20 so does it follow that um you never asked anyone at celetex if there were differences between the fr and the rs 5000 products yeah i didn't know that the fr existed didn't know the really what

02:02:31 fr existed didn't know the really what the rs

02:02:31 the rs was

02:02:35 [Applause]

02:02:39 going back to the meetings with celetex about this launch of this new product which you say you were aware of you remember bright pink brochures that were handed out

02:02:50 brochures that were handed out were you aware that this was being presented as a product for dedicated use on rain screen cladding product projects no it was just i can just remember that

02:03:01 no it was just i can just remember that it was something they said could be used over 18 meters did they ever qualify that you talk about it as a sales pitch that could be used on buildings over 18

02:03:12 that could be used on buildings over 18 meters did celotex ever qualify that sales pitch in any way when discussing the project with you not that i can remember now sorry when discussing the product with you no

02:03:24 do you remember celetex ever saying that fr 5000 was not safe to use on buildings over 18 meters in height

02:03:35 what steps did you take to test and verify

02:03:39 verify the sales pitch for the rs 5000 to check that it could be used on buildings above 18 meters

02:03:48 i can't remember using it on any of the projects that i was the designer on so i didn't take any steps so you're not aware that any steps were taken on the grenfell project

02:04:01 taken on the grenfell project to verify the sales pitch for the rs 5000 as suitable for above 80 meters no you have expected kevin lamb to have checked

02:04:14 to have checked the sales pitch that it could be used on buildings above 18 meters i would expect that he would have

02:04:25 i would expect that he would have told the architect what product was going on there so that they could get that checked and that ryden would have been told what product was going on there so they could check with building control

02:04:37 as far as you were concerned did you just take celetex word for it that celetex rs 5000 could be used on buildings above 18 meters

02:04:48 buildings above 18 meters at the time i wasn't using it on any of the projects i was working on so i didn't

02:04:56 didn't i didn't question it but you're the design manager for the grenfell project why would it not have occurred to you to have made sure that someone checked that that product was suitable for above

02:05:07 that that product was suitable for above 18 meters because i was responsible for making sure that kevin was keeping the program i wasn't educated in how to check fire compliance we'll see later that you

02:05:20 fire compliance we'll see later that you do actually send an email in september 2014

02:05:23 2014 um about the installation attaching the data sheet for it and making comments on its file performance so if your role was solely about

02:05:33 about uh program and structural matters why would you have been doing that in september 14

02:05:41 i can't remember but i don't think it would have been in relation to grenfell okay well we'll come and look at that in two course um when celetex came in

02:05:52 um when celetex came in to harley do you remember ever showing their representatives drawings of grenfell tower

02:05:59 not as far as i remember now do you think anyone else at harley showed celetex drawings of grenfell tower

02:06:08 they may have done i mean

02:06:12 to have got a price to have put in the budget i would have thought that the estimating team would have discussed quantities and the building in that way

02:06:23 and the building in that way well at the at the time when the budget was prepared this rs 5000 product wasn't launched so but if it had been in the specification they must have had something to price

02:06:35 they must have had something to price again

02:06:35 again i see can you recall any discussions that harley had with celetex about the specific cladding system that was proposed to be used as gram

02:06:45 gram grenfell

02:06:49 i don't no i don't recall

02:06:53 now can we turn to an email chain from may 2014

02:06:57 may 2014 so earlier in 2014 if we look at this cel403119

02:07:07 and i want to start at the bottom of page three an email dated the 14th of may from a colleague of yours tim bennett

02:07:18 from a colleague of yours tim bennett um this is the kings band's general email address in march 2014 at 1320

02:07:29 in march 2014 at 1320 and it's about the water resistance of the k15

02:07:32 the k15 product and then if we go the next email up in this little chain and look at that we can see tim bennett from harley then

02:07:43 we can see tim bennett from harley then emails on the 14th of may 2014 emails jonathan room

02:07:49 see seeing you in relation to do you see that there yes and he says morning john please see the below email on our waylands house project we have a k15 specified

02:08:01 project we have a k15 specified insulation to be installed behind the acm rain screen as per my email below i've asked whether the k-15 is suitable to an area which may be sat in water and kingspan have confirmed

02:08:12 kingspan have confirmed that the k-15 is not suitable do you have an alternative product we can put forward

02:08:18 forward do you see that there yes so that's copied to you in may 2014 you're asking jonathan room about an alternative um product and then if we go

02:08:30 um product and then if we go to the top of page two an email of the 14th of may at 10 38

02:08:38 we see there mr jeremy

02:08:44 suttle the technical services office officer at celetex to tim bennett you're not copied in to this bit of the string

02:08:54 string um cc in jonathan room and and saying good morning tim can you please confirm the height of the building that the insulation will be used in do you see that there yes and then if we look at the middle of

02:09:05 yes and then if we look at the middle of page one there's an email

02:09:12 sorry i think below that details about the height of the building are provided yes sorry you see at the bottom of that tim bennett goes back and says the building is 20 stories and 60 meters plus in total height

02:09:25 and 60 meters plus in total height and then what we see immediately above that is jeremy suttle coming back and saying thank you for confirmation unfortunately in this case we would not be able to provide a solution

02:09:34 solution as celetex is only tested up to 18 meters in height do you see that there yes so this is before the launch of rs 5000 in august 14 a query from harley about whether or not

02:09:46 a query from harley about whether or not celetex have a suitable insulation product to in replacement of the k-15

02:09:53 the k-15 and celatex are coming back and saying no because it's not tested up to 18 meters in height do you see that there yeah now did mr bennett at harley make you aware

02:10:03 you aware of this email string and the fact that celetex

02:10:07 celetex insulation was not suitable for use above 18 meters no were you aware of that from any other uh

02:10:15 uh informational sources at the time no so you weren't aware as at may 2014 that celetex did not have a product

02:10:26 that celetex did not have a product suitable for over 18 meters

02:10:30 no i wasn't aware

02:10:35 now um if we then pick up the story again back in august and look at an email cel3011960

02:10:52 this is an email from jonathan room to you on the 27th of august 2014. so this is after kevin lam's appointment which was around the 12th of august 2014.

02:11:05 2014. and he says hi dan good to speak to you again as

02:11:08 again as always for now here is all the info that i have on the rs 5000 rain screen product for use over 18 meters when you have a moment please can you send me across some drawings and an idea

02:11:19 send me across some drawings and an idea of who you would look to use for the supply chain speak again in a couple of weeks and then ps has the waylands house ship sailed

02:11:29 sailed kind regards jonathan and if we note or i should have noted in the subject at the top that at the subject is grenfell tower and also hammersmith rs 5000 data

02:11:40 also hammersmith rs 5000 data do you see that there yes and we also see that a rain screen zip file is attached by mr room to you at that point do you see that there yes

02:11:51 do you see that there yes now we can see that this obviously followed a conversation between you and mr room

02:11:55 mr room good it says good to speak to you again as always

02:11:58 as always can you remember what the purpose of that call was or anything about it i think generally he was always calling to make sure that they were still in

02:12:09 make sure that they were still in specifications and that the specifications hadn't been changed by the architect it's the general sort of way the conversations went and whether we what projects we had

02:12:21 and whether we what projects we had coming up

02:12:22 coming up if he was ringing to discuss the specifications on the grenfell tower project can you remember what you said to him about that probably would have said that it's still down as

02:12:33 down as the celtex product i imagine i thought you said you sorry i can't remember i'm i'm i'm assuming to be honest

02:12:44 i'm i'm assuming to be honest i thought you said earlier that you weren't aware that it was the celetex fr 5000 product that had been specified yeah if you'd asked me

02:12:53 asked me before any of this happened i wouldn't have been able to look back and remember what the product was looking at this now do you think it's likely that you discussed with mr roon

02:13:05 likely that you discussed with mr roon what the specification for the insulation at grenfell tower was yeah looking at this yeah now we know that the um we have the attachments in the zip file and that

02:13:17 attachments in the zip file and that included a pack of documents relevant to the rs 5000 product and i'm going to take you through a number of those documents it included a celetex

02:13:31 documents it included a celetex product comparison sheet an labc certificate for the product a bre global test report a rain scheme cladding compliance guide and a rain screen cladding specification

02:13:42 and a rain screen cladding specification guide so a pack of documents is being sent to you by mr room in that zip file can you recall reading any of those documents at this time

02:13:55 i've i've looked at these from the other evidence and i can't remember having ever seen them at the time

02:14:01 time i think to be honest those kinds of things

02:14:05 things i wasn't educated in and so i tended to pass them on on you know on other projects would always pass them on to people who were educated in that way

02:14:16 you said in your witness statement and we looked at it earlier that you remember the pink brochures yes you remember the cover of the pink brochures does that mean you think you read those pink brochures

02:14:27 read those pink brochures again not in not in detail the the most i knew about at that point was probably you values i understood what your values were and what

02:14:38 what your values were and what what your values needed to be achieved um

02:14:42 um but for anything else it would have passed it on were you aware that this was quite a significant development in in terms of cladding insulation that the development of a celetex

02:14:54 the development of a celetex product it could be used on buildings above 18 meters do you remember being struck that that was a an important development at the time i remember at the time that um jonathan used to

02:15:07 um jonathan used to say that it was a very important development but from my understanding in the industry i didn't

02:15:14 didn't i didn't know it was an important development but i took his word on it so you didn't know it was an important development you didn't know that prior to that k15

02:15:25 you didn't know that prior to that k15 had been

02:15:27 had been the the only insulation product that had been

02:15:30 been regularly used on buildings above 80 meters

02:15:33 meters that was of a phenolic or you know similar nature did you not know that that k-15 had often been specified in that way

02:15:42 that way prior to this all i can remember from the time is jonathan saying that this was the first product to be specified for use for over 18 meters so i i thought that

02:15:55 i i thought that i thought that it was the only one i didn't know that k15 could be i see you hadn't really thought about k15 before this no no okay did you pass these documents on

02:16:06 no okay did you pass these documents on to anyone else within harley after you they were sent to you

02:16:11 i i don't have any memory of it i'm afraid

02:16:15 afraid or to studio e or ryden if i'd been the designer on a project that would have been my normal course of action

02:16:24 action i can't remember doing it on this one i see

02:16:27 see let's turn to the labc registered details certificate to start with this is at cel709

02:16:42 were you aware at this time of who the labc

02:16:46 labc were local authority building control were you aware of that organization no that didn't mean anything to you no now we can see

02:16:58 at the top that it says um second line down in the table rs 5000 pir insulation board do you see that there

02:17:09 pir do you see the reference to pir at the top yes were you aware what pir meant no so you didn't know it meant

02:17:26 polyisocyanute did you give any thought to what type of insulation this was when this pack of material came through

02:17:43 when this pack of material came through i think that i just thought that it was a more highly performing insulation um

02:17:52 and yeah i think that was about it okay under limitations of use further down you see that title on the

02:18:03 further down you see that title on the left hand side four four boxes down it says for use in rain screen wall construction including above 18 meters height the required thickness of board for a particular construction must be established with the use of the celatex

02:18:14 established with the use of the celatex online calculator do you remember noting that no that first line there it says for use in rain screen wall construction including above 18 meters high did you

02:18:27 above 18 meters high did you notice that at the time that they were saying it could be used in buildings above 18 meters yes did not on this document did you consider that this meant that

02:18:38 did you consider that this meant that the product could be used on any building over 18 meters regardless of the

02:18:41 the other components in the external wall

02:18:50 yes now can i ask you to read the paragraph below

02:18:58 in under advice notes it says celetex rs 5000 can be used with a variety of cladding systems including masonry or rain screen systems and can be fixed back to a structural steel frame with a sheathing bolt or

02:19:10 steel frame with a sheathing bolt or direct to masonry do you see that there yes

02:19:16 and then if we keep going in that section it says celatex rs 5000 has successfully tested to bs 84142 2005 meets the criteria set out in br135

02:19:27 2005 meets the criteria set out in br135 and therefore is acceptable for use in buildings with stories above 18 meters in height do you see that there yes did you note that at the time that it had

02:19:37 it had been successfully tested to that test standard

02:19:42 all i can remember is what was what was being told by their sales rep and what was on there the outside of their pink brochure it was used

02:19:53 was used you know acceptable for use in buildings about 18 meters is that all you recall about being told by their sales rep and that it was the first one that was

02:20:05 and that it was the first one that was you know the first of that kind of high performance insulation that could be used in buildings over 18 meters yeah um

02:20:15 yeah um it ends there by talking about alternative compliance to adb do you see that there in that paragraph we were just reading did that

02:20:23 did that mean anything to you at the time

02:20:28 alternative compliance wouldn't have meant anything to me at the time but looking back on it i imagine that was you know was the desktop studies that people would sometimes mention and

02:20:40 that people would sometimes mention and you'd send it off to the design team to be checked okay it then says the product has been tested and achieves and and achieves a class naught spread

02:20:52 and and achieves a class naught spread of flame do you see that there yes do you remember noticing that at the time

02:21:05 i can't remember can you help us as to what you considered the relevance to be of the fact that the insulation had achieved class naught

02:21:18 at the time to me class not meant that it couldn't catch fire so did you read the information about class naught in this pack of information

02:21:30 this pack of information and conclude something from that

02:21:34 i can't remember i don't think so again we'll look at it in due course but in september 14 you send an email saying that the insulation is class

02:21:46 saying that the insulation is class naught

02:21:47 naught so can you remember knowing at the time that piece of information if if i sent an email i must have looked at something to tell me that yes

02:21:58 looked at something to tell me that yes okay

02:22:01 do you think that the insulation being class naught affected the decision to use it on the grenfell project looking back on that period of time i

02:22:12 looking back on that period of time i think that

02:22:15 the classifications were misleading i don't think that anybody fully understood what class i meant you know from the very highest

02:22:27 meant you know from the very highest most qualified architects through to people like me you know doing detailed design and structural engineering let me put the question in a different way were you aware within

02:22:38 way were you aware within harley that the fact that the insulation was class

02:22:41 was class naught made a difference to it being selected for use on the grenfell project no because well as far as i was aware it

02:22:52 no because well as far as i was aware it was

02:22:52 was prescriptive specifications so harley wouldn't have wouldn't have looked at it as classo and chosen it they would have seen that it had been chosen

02:23:04 seen that it had been chosen and probably looked to see if they believed it met the requirements or not okay

02:23:11 okay let's look at another of the documents sent to you by mr room on the 27th of august the celetex rain screen cladding specification guide this is cel6013

02:23:32 specification guide this is cel6013 so um here we've got the pink um cover to this specification guide which you say in your witness statement you do remember seeing is that right i remember the pink of it i couldn't say that it was

02:23:43 pink of it i couldn't say that it was definitely this one do you think you read this document at the time you were sent it by mr room i i don't think i would have i think i would have probably

02:23:54 would have probably he probably would have shown it to me and pointed out what he believed the key aspects were um but it wasn't my area of expertise

02:24:05 but it wasn't my area of expertise whose job it was it on the grenfell project to read this celetex specification guide for the rs 5000 insulation

02:24:27 within harley i don't know you don't know

02:24:30 know no so you didn't think that kevin lam read this

02:24:37 if kevin had satisfied himself that the product had been checked by the architect and building control even i don't believe he

02:24:48 building control even i don't believe he would need to read it okay now if we go on within this document at page five

02:24:55 we can see if we look at the top of the page we've got a section for fire performance it says their fire performance rain screen insulation celotex rs5000 is class naught fire rated as described by

02:25:07 class naught fire rated as described by the national building regulations and it talks about two tests that it's passed there do you see that there yes or one it's passed and the other one it's got a classification for it just to be

02:25:18 be accurate um

02:25:22 so did you notice the reference to class naught in this um specification guide at the time as you said by your email that you've mentioned i must have noticed it at some

02:25:34 mentioned i must have noticed it at some point yeah i have no memory of it okay and then for building above 18 meters further down that column it says celatex rs 5000 has been successfully tested to bs 8414

02:25:46 tested to bs 8414 um and then it explains what that test method is

02:25:49 method is meets the criteria set out in br135 and is therefore acceptable for use in buildings above 18 meters in height do you see that there yes again can you recall reading that in

02:26:00 yes again can you recall reading that in this guide no i can't recall reading the guides i recall being told it and having it pointed out to me but i had no knowledge of what

02:26:12 had no knowledge of what bs8414 was oh bl-135 um and if if i'd been showing this on another project i would have sent it off yeah to others to check

02:26:26 so does it follow that you didn't form a view about whether this meant that the rs 5000 could be used on grenfell tower no i wouldn't have formed a view on it because

02:26:39 now this guide set out the nature of the system that had been tested if we go immediately below and look at the bottom of that page

02:26:51 sorry i think we've gone too far down i'm sorry immediately yes there you see it

02:26:55 it you say the system tested to bs 84142 2005 was as follows do you see that there yes and we can see that it they've told you

02:27:04 told you what the system was and it begins with 12 millimeter fiber cement panels do you remember noticing in either this specification guide or indeed any of the other literature about

02:27:16 other literature about rs 5000 that um it had been tested on a specific system cladding system do you remember noticing that no

02:27:25 that no you weren't aware of that at the time so you weren't aware that it had been tested with fibre cement panels as the rain screen panel in those tests

02:27:37 so you didn't notice that that was different to the rain screen system at grenfell

02:27:41 grenfell which had aluminium composite material panels

02:27:45 panels you didn't notice that no [Applause] now you talked just a moment ago about what you'd been told by the celetex representative did the

02:27:56 by the celetex representative did the celetex represented representative ever tell you anything about the specific system that had been tested did they he go into those details

02:28:13 go into those details um and then if we look at the column on the right

02:28:16 the right um we could go back up to the top of the page

02:28:21 page um we in the third paragraph down on the right we get this it says the fire performance and classification report for celetex rs 5000 only relates to the components detailed above any

02:28:33 to the components detailed above any changes

02:28:34 changes to the components listed will need to be considered by the building designer do you see that there yes do you remember reading that statement or any similar statement in any of this celetex

02:28:45 any of this celetex rs 5000 literature had you read that who would you have

02:28:56 had you read that who would you have thought needed to consider it so it talks about the building designer the building designer to me would be the

02:29:06 architect

02:29:11 [Applause] let's turn to another of the documents this is the rain screen cladding compliance guide

02:29:21 [Applause] and this is cel6012 and it was another document you were provided with by mr room on the 27th of august 2014. again this has got the pink cover

02:29:33 again this has got the pink cover does it do your answers kind of follow over that you don't recall reading this in

02:29:37 in any detail at the time no because it wasn't what i was trained in

02:29:46 if we can go to page three in the far right hand column

02:29:55 we get more information about the performance criteria here there's a discussion about br135 and again we get the

02:30:03 the statement in that final paragraph the classification applies only to the system as tested and detailed in the classification report it can only cover the details of the system as

02:30:13 system as tested it cannot state what is not covered

02:30:16 covered when specifying or checking a system it is important to check that the classification documents cover the end use application do you see that there yes

02:30:26 and again is it your evidence that you don't recall ever being aware of that caveat in this pack of information no i don't recall that and if you go to

02:30:38 no i don't recall that and if you go to page

02:30:39 page four in the middle of the page we can see

02:30:43 see at the top of the page that the system tested is again listed but this time we've also got a diagram of the system below that

02:30:55 a diagram of the system below that if we can pull up that diagram exactly so there we can see the system that was tested and you can see on the second label down 12 millimeter marley eternet natura panel do you see that there

02:31:06 panel do you see that there yes would that have been um something you were familiar with at the time and marley attorney natura panel it's not a product that i've used before

02:31:19 it's not a product that i've used before so it wasn't a product that used on a rain screen system before no and is it your evidence that you didn't notice at the time that the system that was tested was with

02:31:30 tested was with that product that you didn't recognize no i didn't notice that

02:31:39 and then if we go back up the page again

02:31:45 sorry we've already seen the warning sorry um

02:31:50 did you ever discuss anything about the malia turn eternity natural panel with uh mr room i don't believe so no you don't remember

02:32:03 i don't believe so no you don't remember him mentioning that that was the panel that had been used in the test did you ever have any doubts in your mind about whether the system ought to

02:32:15 mind about whether the system ought to be used at grenfell or was that simply something that you just didn't apply your mind to yeah because it was relating to

02:32:27 because it was relating to fire performance and thermal performance that i wasn't trained in you know i applied my mind to the structural performance on grenfell

02:32:38 performance on grenfell um can we also turn now to the bre global test report that mr room sent over this is cel6011 it's dated the 11th of august 2014.

02:32:54 can you see that that's the um the bre the cover for this uh test report

02:33:01 report and it's a classification report in accordance with br135 do you remember ever reading this document at the time no if we go to page two at item 2.1 it sets out

02:33:15 at item 2.1 it sets out the full details of the system that's tested

02:33:18 tested there do you see that there yes again does that bring back any memory of looking at that no and if we go to page 4 paragraph 5.3

02:33:29 and if we go to page 4 paragraph 5.3 under the heading field of application do you see it says there this classification is valid only for the system as installed and detailed in section two of this classification report

02:33:39 report and the associated details found in the related test reports do you see that there

02:33:43 there yes and again is it your evidence that you didn't notice that at the time you didn't read that no

02:33:52 did you at any time query with celetex or anyone else whether there was a desktop study to support the use of rs 5000 for the system at grenfell

02:34:05 system at grenfell on grenfell no i know that i sent other desktop studies off for other jobs but i can't remember what products they were for did you ever

02:34:16 what products they were for did you ever did you ever check on grenfell whether anyone else was um asking for a desktop study or other assessment to support the system at grenfell

02:34:28 at grenfell no whose responsibility did you think that was

02:34:33 that was if the product had been specified by the architect which i believed it had been then i believe it would have been their responsibility to ensure that desktop study had been carried out but mr ankle jones we've seen that the

02:34:45 mr ankle jones we've seen that the product that was specified was the fr 5000 product and we've seen celetex saying in may 2014 that that product wasn't suitable for use above 18 meters is it your evidence that you simply

02:34:57 is it your evidence that you simply weren't aware that this was a different product

02:35:00 product yeah i wasn't aware of that there was a difference in the products

02:35:07 products and looking back on it i thought we were just following the specification and in which case i would have thought that it had been checked fully by the architect but how

02:35:19 checked fully by the architect but how could you have thought that when you said you knew this was a new product that was being launched the first product to be used above 18 meters

02:35:27 meters i had no concept that it hadn't already been checked through with

02:35:33 with desktop studies at that point and didn't realize that the timelines worked that way i thought that you'd already been signed off

02:35:47 [Applause]

02:35:52 okay

02:35:58 can i ask you to turn to mr ray bailey's witness statement this is har3010184 page 42.

02:36:09 [Applause]

02:36:13 and look at paragraph 170

02:36:20 do you see that there so he's asked the question did harley rely on any advice from third parties about the compliance of the design and he says as described previously we relied upon took into consideration

02:36:31 relied upon took into consideration advice from studio e in respect to the position of the cavity barriers side arise in respect to the confirmation of the specification of the cavity barriers and from manufacturers in relation to the suitability of the rayner bond acm

02:36:42 the suitability of the rayner bond acm and celetex rs 5000 do you see that there

02:36:45 there yes now did you ever take any specific advice from celetex about the use of rs 5000 on the on the grenfell building

02:36:57 no not that i remember

02:37:06 now if we look at paragraph 42 of your witness statement this is har3010149 page 10.

02:37:19 page 10. you say there this type of phenolic insulation was used very frequently at the time

02:37:23 the time the main ones were kingspan and celatex at the time celatex described it as class naught and claimed that it was suitable for use on buildings over 18 meters

02:37:33 meters and we're pushing it heavily as i have described in answer to question 4b but they were not drawing people's attention to the exact configuration that allowed it to be used on buildings

02:37:44 that allowed it to be used on buildings over 18 meters do you see that there yes now can you explain why you're saying there that they were not drawing people's attention to the exact configuration given the documents that we've just looked at because

02:37:56 looked at because when i look back on it now having read those documents i have no recollection of them drawing our attention to that

02:38:07 our attention to that are you saying that it you personally didn't have the exact configuration drawn to your attention is that why you're saying that yes

02:38:17 are you saying that you personally were confused by the celetex marketing literature as to what compliance standards the product had actually achieved

02:38:30 i think at the time i i didn't have enough knowledge on it to even probably be confused i would take what they were saying

02:38:41 i would take what they were saying and then i would pass it on to people who understood it yeah if you didn't actually read any of the documents i just took you to and i think that was your evidence how could you have become confused

02:38:52 you have become confused that's my point i don't think i understood enough about it to even be confused i think with other things that you're educated on you can become confused about it and not understand what people

02:39:03 about it and not understand what people are going at but on something where you literally have no training you you literally just take you take what you're given you may not

02:39:14 you take what you're given you may not necessarily believe it or you know um approve it yourself but you take what you're given you say okay i hear what you're saying you pass it on

02:39:25 i hear what you're saying you pass it on to the people who do understand that for them to approve

02:39:31 and on grenfell who are you passing it on to the people who do understand it for them to approve if i had been the designer i would have been passing on to the architect and building control

02:39:44 so does that mean you expected kevin lam to be passing on this kind of information to the architect and building control i would i'd expect kevin to have satisfied himself that if

02:39:57 that it had been signed off by the architect and building control right can we look at another document now from

02:40:05 now from august so the day after you were sent this pack of documents from celetex that was on the 27th of august 14. it appears that you had a discussion with them about appropriate u values can we

02:40:16 them about appropriate u values can we go

02:40:17 go to cel4014

02:40:22 and this is an extract again from the celetex salesforce entry and we'll need the offline version

02:40:32 sorry so i want to look at the entry that first one on that page there that we can see it's dated the 28th of august 2014 and it's about

02:40:45 august 2014 and it's about grenfell tower can you see it says related to yeah do you see that and it's assigned someone called mark willoughby i think within celetex and then comments

02:40:56 i think within celetex and then comments it says refurb of grenfell tower 0.15 u value and then it says this dan has calculated using fr but stated that he needs to use

02:41:07 that he needs to use rs 5000 150 millimeter due on site in october we'll recalculate using our software instead of bulldesk to make sure

02:41:19 of bulldesk to make sure everything is in order do you see that there yeah it's built so focusing in on on that do you remember who you might

02:41:30 on that do you remember who you might have had a discussion with at celetex at this time i don't recall it i recall that we used to have a piece of software in the office called build desk

02:41:41 in the office called build desk and you could put in the products that you were using um to calculate a u-value um i would have thought maybe i could

02:41:53 um i would have thought maybe i could celetex to get them to check it or something but you can't recall who you spoke to at celetex no can you help us with the comment

02:42:04 no can you help us with the comment dan has calculated using fr but stated that he needs to use rs 5000 do you see that there yes what's your understanding of what fr

02:42:15 what's your understanding of what fr means there

02:42:18 my understanding now is it was

02:42:22 a different brand name for the same product

02:42:26 product so could it mean dana's calculated using fr 5000

02:42:31 fr 5000 but stated that he needs to use rs 5000 do you see that there yeah the the software came with a set number of products on it

02:42:42 set number of products on it so it may not have had the rs5000 in it it just works off a a figure so each product has a new value performance or a

02:42:54 performance or a thermal resistance and so you just select one that has a similar thermal resistance to the one you want to

02:43:02 to roughly calculate the thickness looking at this now does that mean that as at this point august

02:43:09 august 2014 you you must have been aware that it was fr 5000 that had been specified uh as the product originally by the architects i don't

02:43:21 originally by the architects i don't know i

02:43:23 know i either the product wasn't available in the software or i just had a quick look at the nbs specification and put in what what was stated there

02:43:35 what what was stated there can you help us is it at this point that it was decided that the specification should change from fr

02:43:42 from fr to rs 5000 you you're you're recorded as stating there stated that he needs to use rs 5000 was that a decision that you had

02:43:53 rs 5000 was that a decision that you had taken

02:43:54 taken no i have no recollection of changing it or that it was even different

02:44:03 so do you think this is inaccurate um or can you explain why it says stated that he needs to use rs 5000

02:44:13 i can't remember i'd be guessing do you know who made the decision to use the rs 5000 product on the grenfell project no i

02:44:25 product on the grenfell project no i can't

02:44:28 can you help us as to in what circumstances the rs 5000 came to be used on the grenfell project

02:44:41 only by guessing well we don't want you to guess but um did you ever check with ryden or studio e

02:44:50 e that they were happy with the rs 5000 product no

02:44:58 whose job within harley would it have been to have checked with ryden and studio e

02:45:03 studio e that they were happy with the rs 5000 product

02:45:07 product project manager or project designer

02:45:11 so who was that in harley then it would have been

02:45:15 have been ben or kevin ben or kevin do you remember having a discussion with kevin lam

02:45:23 kevin lam at which you talked about the rs 5000 celetex product the new cellotex product with kevin lam no

02:45:33 so how would kevin have been aware of that product

02:45:38 i don't know

02:45:44 now um if we can look forward in the chronology now if we go to another document cel

02:45:54 6014 and if we look at the bottom of page one cell 6014

02:46:03 cell 6014 so at the very bottom of that page we can see on the 18th of september 2014 so this is

02:46:08 this is uh later in time so kind of three weeks or so later we can see that he says morning dan please can you let me know your availability to discuss grenfell tower and the other projects in your pipeline

02:46:19 and the other projects in your pipeline kind regards jonathan do you see that there yes and we can see from the top email of on page one that he followed up with a further request on the 17th of november 2014.

02:46:33 request on the 17th of november 2014. hi dan would you be around on thursday friday to catch up regarding your current future projects kind regards jonathan do you see that there yes now do you think it's likely that you spoke to mr room in between those two emails between

02:46:45 in between those two emails between september and november i think you said earlier that he was coming in on a kind of fortnightly basis is it likely that you had discussions with him prior to november

02:46:59 it's likely i can't remember okay um

02:47:06 okay um and we can see from the emails that a meeting did take place on the 24th of november 2014 because that evening mr rheem sent you an email if we look at that this is it

02:47:18 cel6018

02:47:23 [Applause]

02:47:27 so this is um if we look if we could just blow up the top half of that email thank you

02:47:32 thank you this is from jonathan room to you

02:47:38 and just note that no one else is copied into that email so there's no mark stapley no one else at harley just you celetex project review and he says hi

02:47:49 celetex project review and he says hi dan i spoke with mark and the team regarding a few projects now would that be mark stapley that he'd spoken to

02:47:57 spoken to i i don't know and then sorry it could have been either of them yeah

02:48:05 yeah so mark harris or mark stapley yes um and then we've got grenfell tower when we last looked at this we came to a conclusion of using three thousand meters squared of 150

02:48:18 three thousand meters squared of 150 millimeter rs 5000 is this still so mark's drawings were showing a mix of 100 millimeters and 160 millimeters do you see that there yeah so this email would you agree

02:48:30 yeah so this email would you agree suggests that you have previously looked at the quantity and thickness of rs 5000 that you would need to use

02:48:41 of rs 5000 that you would need to use for the grenfell project do you agree yes you've sat down with mr room and you've talked about that yes

02:48:50 now given what you've said about the limitations of your role can you explain why you were having those discussions with mr

02:48:56 with mr room i think because of our relationship from the previous his previous role that it was just a useful way of him to be able to find out what work was coming up

02:49:09 able to find out what work was coming up and what he could sort of start putting into his sales figures were predicted

02:49:19 because this is about the insulation isn't it so it can't have had anything to do with the structural performance no but it

02:49:26 but it based on our previous relationship we had a relationship where he could come in and talk to me and it was a way of him being able to predict what was coming up in his sales

02:49:38 predict what was coming up in his sales forecasts does that mean on the grenfell project because of the relationship you had with jonathan room celetex that you did get involved in helping select the rs 5000

02:49:50 in helping select the rs 5000 installation for the project no just helped him in anticipating what sort of projects were coming up and what sort of quantities those products might have

02:50:02 quantities those products might have on them if their insulation was to be used

02:50:06 used but it's much more specific than that isn't it you're actually looking at very specific quantities and thicknesses of a specific celetex product product for the grenfell tower project

02:50:17 for the grenfell tower project isn't that exactly what we see here yeah but that's the kind of information he would be looking for to understand what sort of work was potentially coming up

02:50:31 so is what you're saying that you anticipated he would have further discussions with somebody else at harley

02:50:37 at harley about whether to choose rs 5000 on the grenfell project as far as i understood the the rs 5000 was

02:50:46 was always chosen even looking back on it now

02:50:53 i come to the same conclusion that the difference between the two products there wasn't one and at some point someone must have said you can't

02:51:03 you can't use that one but the rs 5000 is the equivalent

02:51:10 i see but that does suggest you were aware that you were changing products honestly i was not aware that was changing products okay

02:51:23 do you remember which drawings you had discussed and looked at with mr room he says when we last looked at this we came to the conclusion of using

02:51:34 came to the conclusion of using is this still so so mark's drawings were showing a mix of can you recall what drawings were reviewed by celetex no no mark must have shown him some when i was

02:51:45 mark must have shown him some when i was working in london so you can't help as to whether they showed the entire wall build-up of the system at grenfell no

02:51:56 we know that the harley drawings did not themselves identify the rayna bond acm pro product do you know whether jonathan roon was ever shown the harley specification

02:52:08 ever shown the harley specification which did show that product or was otherwise told that it was going to be rainer bond acm no i don't

02:52:19 did you or anyone else at harley ever tell jonathan room specifically that the rain screen you were proposing to use on grenfell was a rainer bond acm not that i'm aware of no

02:52:34 did you have discussions with mr room about whether rs 5000 should be used on grenfell tower

02:52:46 as i wasn't the designer on the project i don't believe i would have discussed it with him in direct relation to grenfell would have discussed it in more general sense that it was appropriate for use over 18

02:52:58 that it was appropriate for use over 18 meters

02:52:59 meters but for any of the projects i was working on and that he was putting it forward i would have sent it off to that design team so you don't accept that this email suggests you did have a specific

02:53:10 suggests you did have a specific discussion about the use of rs 5000 for the grenfell project

02:53:16 project it it does discuss that it was going to be used on grenfell and he would have been aware it was going to be used on grenfell sorry i'm not what was the question

02:53:27 sorry i'm not what was the question specifically so you're not accepting that this email suggests you did have a specific discussion about the use of rs 5000

02:53:36 rs 5000 for the grenfell project no he he would have been where it was being used on grenfell

02:53:46 did mr room ever expressly provide you with an assurance that the rs 5000 product

02:53:52 product was suitable for use in the specific system

02:53:55 system proposed for use at grenfell tower i never discussed the

02:54:03 specific suitability of rs 5000 with him

02:54:11 did to your knowledge mr room ever conduct any assessment of the cladding system at grenfell as a whole and confirm that rs 5000 was safe to use

02:54:19 to use in that application not that i'm aware of

02:54:23 of did they provide you with any detailed analysis to explain why they came to the conclusion that it was an acceptable use of the product not no more in mr bailey's evidence last

02:54:35 not no more in mr bailey's evidence last week he indicated that he thought there had been an assessment by celetex that it was a suitable product for use at grenfell

02:54:45 it is your evidence that you weren't aware of any such assessment

02:54:51 if i'd been i wasn't aware of it for this project on all other projects i would have always been checking that it had been

02:55:02 always been checking that it had been done by the architect and building control

02:55:08 were you ever involved in promoting rs 5000 for use on harley projects

02:55:19 i don't believe i ever tried to promote it on any project what about specifically for grenfell tower do you remember ever supporting within harley the use of rs 5000 on

02:55:31 5000 on the grenfell project no it was a prescriptive performance from my point of view it was already specified

02:55:39 specified [Applause] now in your witness statement you said that you attended two design team meetings in august 2014 and october 2014. um

02:55:54 2014. um the minutes of the design team meeting for august 2014 do show you there the minutes for the october 2014 meeting did not show you there but you are at the september

02:56:05 are at the september 2014 design team meeting is it possible that you've simply got confused about that it was a long time ago yeah

02:56:12 ago yeah let's look at the minutes of that september 2014 design team meeting uh it's ryd three zeros one seven one two eight at page four

02:56:29 so we probably ought to look at the front of those meeting minutes just to check that you were there yes so you can see it's held on site on the 2nd of september 2014 at 10

02:56:40 the 2nd of september 2014 at 10 a.m and you are there in the present list on the left hand side do you see that

02:56:44 that yes together with kevin lam can you see that yes

02:56:48 that yes and if we go to page 4 item 3.62 we can see u values being discussed do you see that there yes and it says u values were discussed

02:57:01 yes and it says u values were discussed with

02:57:01 with s l i think that must be simon lawrence is that right i presume so yeah with simon lawrence asking how the figures in the spec were arrived at and whether they need to be

02:57:13 arrived at and whether they need to be rechecked from an m e and insulation point of view is the insulation thickness show on architect drawings correct and then we see this it says d.a.j

02:57:25 and then we see this it says d.a.j that would be you wouldn't it daniel anger jones yes confirmed that he had checked them but with the assumption that ride and maintenance limited were fitting further insulation

02:57:36 fitting further insulation internally and then simon lodge didn't believe this was part of the spec all parties agreed to check their documents do you see that there yes does this mean that you had checked

02:57:47 yes does this mean that you had checked the u-values for the insulation so that would have been with that build desk software that we looked at earlier

02:57:56 earlier so you were it was part of your role was it to

02:57:59 it to check you values and thermal performance of the insulation i don't think it was specifically part of my role it was just trying to double check

02:58:11 trying to double check on this particular project to help them out

02:58:16 did this checking process of the u-values prompt any consideration of whether the product was suitable from other perspectives such as a fire safety perspective no it would have been just checking

02:58:29 no it would have been just checking whether the u-value that they were trying to achieve could be achieved with the thickness of insulation they were specifying did you ever consider whether another insulation product such as a mineral

02:58:41 insulation product such as a mineral insulation product might have been more appropriate for the grenfell project no because it had been

02:58:47 had been specified by the architect it was a prescriptive specification we weren't trying to put forward other products in my mind and then just

02:58:58 other products in my mind and then just finally on this um set of minutes and then i think we can break um the post meeting note that pmn you see at the bottom of that page

02:59:09 bottom of that page it says their um max fordham tender u-value document was shared to team via email

02:59:15 email external wall construction was checked against all tender information and all information shared do you see that there now were you involved in that checking process for the external wall

02:59:26 checking process for the external wall construction

02:59:29 not that i remember so you don't recall checking that construction against the tender information no do you know whether anyone else that harley did as recorded in the minutes

02:59:41 harley did as recorded in the minutes no i mean reading this it looks more like a

02:59:45 like a check that was carried out on with the design team okay mr german i think that would be a good point thank you wellness it's transl we had a break for lunch

02:59:57 it's transl we had a break for lunch we'll stop now we'll start again at two o'clock please so please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it over the

03:00:06 the break and uh we'll see you back here at two o'clock please thank you

03:00:24 thank you good two o'clock please thank you

03:00:42 you