Ben Bailey, Harley project manager, gives evidence about his role in the Grenfell cladding installation, including fire safety responsibilities, product selection, and interactions with Celotex regarding RS5000 insulation.
00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing i'm sorry that the start of the proceedings has been delayed a little bit it's because the lawyer representing the next witness has not been well and we've had to make
00:00:37 has not been well and we've had to make arrangements to enable him to attend remotely he also asked for a couple of minutes to speak to his client to explain what was going on uh which seemed to be a very reasonable request
00:00:48 seemed to be a very reasonable request so uh we starting ten minutes later for that reason yes mr millet mr chairman good morning i now call mr ben bailey good thank you would you ask mr bailey
00:00:59 good thank you would you ask mr bailey to come in please
00:01:15 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give to be the hot truth the whole truth nothing but the truth thank you very much mr bailey good morning
00:01:24 morning sit down make yourself comfortable good morning
00:01:30 all right yes mr millet yes mr chairman thank you
00:01:33 thank you mr bailey good morning good morning first of all can i say thank you to you for coming here today and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding
00:01:45 if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions i'm happy to repeat the question or put the question in a different way can i also ask you please to keep your voice up because you have a transcriber sitting to your right and she needs to get down
00:01:57 right and she needs to get down your words clearly and it also helps if for yes and no you say yes or no rather than
00:02:03 than nod or shake your head because those don't go down all the transcript okay we're going to take regular breaks uh during the day but if you need a break at any other time let us know and we can take a short break yes now you've made a statement
00:02:16 break yes now you've made a statement for the inquiry can i take you to it please it's in a folder in front of you on the desk there and it'll also appear as all the documents we're going to look at together
00:02:24 together on the screen in front of you this statement is dated the 9th of november 2018 and it's at
00:02:34 har301060 can i take you first to page 22 of that statement
00:02:41 statement there's a signature there underneath the statement of truth is that your signature
00:02:45 signature that is have you read this statement recently
00:02:48 recently yes and can you confirm for us that its contents are true yes have you discussed your statement today or the evidence that you're going to give with anybody before coming here today
00:02:57 today no right now i'm going to start with some questions about your background now ray bailey who was your father and we'll call ray for present purposes told us that you were you are now 31 is that right
00:03:09 were you are now 31 is that right i'm 30. you're 30. okay now um you'd worked i think on previous projects with ray prior to your foundation degree in 2009 is that right yes and what about between
00:03:21 is that right yes and what about between 2009 and 2013
00:03:25 again i think i'd worked for the company on and off in the sort of the university and school holidays
00:03:34 i think between up to that point and did you gain some experience as an office manager at harley yes and what about as a project coordinator yes when did you gain experience as a
00:03:45 yes when did you gain experience as a project coordinator at harley can you give me some idea of the dates that would probably have been um you know towards 20 2013
00:03:57 you know towards 20 2013 so if you take the time here 2009 to 2013 it would have been you know maybe the second half of that period yes i see and i think you graduated in 2013.
00:04:08 and i think you graduated in 2013. yes presumably in the summer of that year uh yes yes and your uh degree from which you graduated in that year was it business and management it was
00:04:19 was and the foundation degree you did that was in engineering i think you said uh statement yeah yes it started off i was going to do multiple engineering
00:04:30 multiple engineering and that's what the foundation degree was for but then i moved on to business and management right instead i see can we go to paragraph five of your statement on page one at the bottom
00:04:41 statement on page one at the bottom there
00:04:42 there and you detail there the courses that you
00:04:46 you uh covered um did any of those courses cover fire safety in high-rise buildings
00:04:52 buildings they did not no and you say that um over the top of page two uh and you you list all the uh courses there looking at the first one
00:05:03 looking at the first one health safety and environment test for managers and professionals presumably that didn't cover fire safety no
00:05:10 no well um it may have covered general fires fire safety on a site but not specifically you know in buildings yes were you
00:05:21 you know in buildings yes were you ever given any training or do you have any qualifications in relation to fire safety in the construction of buildings no i'm going to turn to your role generally on the grenfell tower
00:05:32 generally on the grenfell tower refurbishment now your role on that was a as project manager wasn't it correct and that started am i right in february 2015 yeah it was around that period i became
00:05:44 yeah it was around that period i became involved now between paragraphs 9 and 20 of your witness statement we can see that you summarize your responsibilities as the harley project manager and without going into all of the detail
00:05:56 and without going into all of the detail there would you be able to agree that in short as project manager you were responsible for overseeing and managing all aspects of harley's work on the grenfell tower project at least
00:06:08 on the grenfell tower project at least on site
00:06:11 i'd say my responsibilities were logistics and planning um right now if we look at paragraph six
00:06:24 right now if we look at paragraph six uh you say there um in the first line as a result prior to graduating i spent some time on harley project sites i also gained experience
00:06:35 sites i also gained experience working as an office manager and project coordinator at harley and then you say after i graduated that's 2013 as you've told us i worked full time as a site manager for
00:06:47 i worked full time as a site manager for harley on a large refurbishment project at merit house which involved the replacement of windows and installation of a curtain walling system so your role there was as a site manager
00:07:00 so your role there was as a site manager so that's what you say is that correct that is correct i think by the end of it i
00:07:05 i was undertaking um part of the project manager's role as well well the reason i ask is because ray bailey said that you are a project manager on merit house
00:07:16 manager on merit house and the reference to that for our purposes is day 33 at page 133 line 8 and following is he right about that
00:07:26 i think yeah um
00:07:32 through the job i think my role morphed into that yes right so let's just see if i can get this a bit more clear in my mind you started as a site manager at the merit house project is
00:07:44 manager at the merit house project is that right yes and at some stage you say your role morphed into project manager were you formally promoted to project manager i don't remember or and is the sense that you gradually
00:07:56 or and is the sense that you gradually took on
00:07:57 took on some tasks that a project manager would normally take on yes it's it's that is it yes well could you give us an idea of the sorts of tasks program management
00:08:08 management engaging with the client um more valuation type activities was any of those tasks related to the design
00:08:19 design no was any of those tasks related to the selection
00:08:23 selection of products products or materials no mr millet i'm sorry to interrupt you but my scrolling transcript is intermittently resetting i say intermittently about every two or
00:08:34 i say intermittently about every two or three seconds yes can i just ask whether other people in the room seem to have the same problem um i think it's going to make it very difficult for people who are following it
00:08:45 following it elsewhere if we can't sort this out um well i'm sorry to say mr chairman that says mine and i've only just noticed
00:08:59 yeah do you you'd probably be better if we
00:09:03 we stopped for a minute or two and let you sort it out would it yeah i think we're going to do that we've had this problem before and it didn't take it it's very um tiresome for those who are trying to make use of it so it is mr bailey i'm sorry we've got a
00:09:15 it is mr bailey i'm sorry we've got a bit of a hitch with our rolling transcript so we're going to stop for a few minutes just to try and get it sorted out i'm going to ask you to go back to the witness room with the usher while we do
00:09:27 witness room with the usher while we do that
00:09:27 that this is the first time you'll have left the room having started to give your evidence
00:09:32 evidence so i need to ask you i should remind you about this every time you go out but i must ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room all right okay would you like to go with
00:09:44 all right okay would you like to go with the usher please and we'll get you back as soon as we can thank you
00:09:58 all right well we'll stop for as long as we need to and perhaps someone could send us a word as soon as it's fixed very good good thank you very
00:10:16 much
00:26:02 i think we're back online and working mr millet yeah we'll get mr bailey back in yes would you ask mr bailey to come back please
00:26:23 well i'm sorry about that breaking your evidence mr bailey but i think we're ready now to carry on all right thank you yes mr miller mr chairman thank you very much mr bailey how long were you involved in
00:26:35 mr bailey how long were you involved in the merit house project for can you give us an idea of dates
00:26:42 i think i started on site on that job in the beginning beginning of 2014 i think
00:26:49 think and when did you come off site when did you come out of that project rather i think it's july 2015. july 2015 so your role on the merit house project
00:27:03 so your role on the merit house project overlapped did it with your role on the grenfell tower project yeah so my my involvement with merit house in that time period was um reducing weekly because we were finishing off on that job
00:27:14 finishing off on that job so it's the you know it's the feeling bits at the end that i was involved with so beginning of 2014 to july 2015 so 18 or 19 months or so during that
00:27:25 so 18 or 19 months or so during that period
00:27:26 period when did you start to take on the project manager aspects or tasks i i don't remember clearly
00:27:38 i i don't remember clearly um but it could have been a third of the way through half the way through right okay so you can can we summarize it this way that by the time you started on
00:27:50 that by the time you started on the grenfell tower project in earnest in february 2015 you had been working on the merit house project
00:28:02 project since early 2014. so about a year
00:28:07 yes yes so that would mean that a third of the way into that you would have started doing project manager-like tasks a third or halfway through that period so that would be what around about
00:28:18 so that would be what around about september october to or maybe august september 2014. in the summer yeah i don't want to put memory into your mind you tell us what you remember that sounds reasonable
00:28:31 you remember that sounds reasonable all right so if you took on project manager like tasks in august or so let's say 2014 you'd had only a few months
00:28:43 2014 you'd had only a few months of carrying out such tasks by the time you started on the grenfell tower project in in earnest in february 2015.
00:28:53 yes yes am i right that the role of harley project manager when you took it on involved the coordination of all of the elements of
00:29:05 coordination of all of the elements of the project which involved harley so far as grenfell tower is concerned um when you say all of the coordination of all of the elements of what harley
00:29:16 of all of the elements of what harley was supposed to do
00:29:19 well i'd say my role was it's the
00:29:23 managing of the program managing of suppliers and when i say program i think that
00:29:31 that that would involve directing the design in terms of what we need next to fulfill the programme i don't think it's an overarching role
00:29:42 i don't think it's an overarching role right did your did any part of that role include ensuring that the works for which you were responsible were being completed on time yes and to a high standard yes
00:29:57 yes and to a high standard yes and is it right that you would be or were the most senior harley person regularly on the grenfell tower site
00:30:05 well we had we would have visits from contracts managers and above regularly as well
00:30:14 as well yes but you would be the most senior harley person on site well weekly basis yes yes and on site am i right that much of your
00:30:28 and on site am i right that much of your role was devoted to ensuring that the facade works were progressing as planned yes yes and that meant did that mean that you would inspect the works carried
00:30:39 that you would inspect the works carried out by harley's installers osborne and berry i snagged in the works at various points right and as i said in my statement i was at the request of
00:30:51 my statement i was at the request of ryden
00:30:52 ryden so your inspection is this right your inspection responsibility was limited to snagging
00:30:57 snagging or did it go further than snagging it was snagging right so you never checked the works as they were progressing to ensure compliance with standards or program
00:31:10 i think there's a difference between checking the works and snagging it so when i open my statement i refer to checking
00:31:17 checking it that is to see where we are in the program right then a snag is at the
00:31:25 the at a point where that area is ready to be inspected yes can you give us a rough eye we'll come to the details later in your evidence but just in general terms can you give us an idea of how much
00:31:38 can you give us an idea of how much checking inspection you did as opposed to snagging inspection
00:31:48 it's hard to say now you know years later how how often that happened
00:31:54 happened but um
00:31:59 it would have to have been a weekly bi-weekly
00:32:03 bi-weekly because you know you're trying to stick to a program which has weak chunks at a time
00:32:09 time so it's a general overview of where we are that week or that two-week period right now we've looked at uh your attendance on site um
00:32:19 site um and you say weekly and i think you've just said bi-weekly whether it's weekly or bi-weekly for the moment doesn't matter but am i right in thinking that you are the only harley employee who regularly attended site
00:32:32 employee who regularly attended site well as i said on a weekly basis yes yes but the only harley there was nobody else from harley attending as regularly as you no no now can we look at paragraph 31 of your
00:32:43 now can we look at paragraph 31 of your statement please it's a page 10.
00:32:50 and you say there that and this is an answer to a question 4d was the exterior of the building including the cladding insulation fixings and windows compliant with
00:33:02 fixings and windows compliant with relevant building regulations fire regulations other legislation british standards including testing requirements guidance and industry practice so that's the question that you're being asked to answer and you say i was not involved
00:33:13 to answer and you say i was not involved in any compliance issues or decisions in relation to the project
00:33:17 project until the fire i had no reason to question either the design or the materials being used uh i show you that can i then also show you before i ask a question
00:33:29 before i ask a question page 13 and i want to show you paragraph 43 on page 13 uh which is in answer to the question what decisions about the exterior
00:33:41 what decisions about the exterior of the building i.e cladding insulation fixing and windows were made by whom and when and you say as explained above i was not directly involved
00:33:52 involved in the decision making about the cladding insulation or windows now i've shown you those two extracts from your statement and were you at all involved
00:34:04 and were you at all involved with any aspect of whether the design or the products complied with the building regulations not i remember what about industry standards
00:34:16 standards such as for example the cwct standard no no
00:34:21 no were you responsible in your role as project manager for making sure that those who are answerable to you made sure that the designs and products
00:34:32 made sure that the designs and products complied with the building regulations or industry standards no no
00:34:41 do you accept that if you had become aware
00:34:44 aware of a potential non-compliance with the build with the building regulations or associated guidance then in your role as a project manager you would be duty-bound to ensure that those issues were adequately considered
00:34:55 those issues were adequately considered by
00:34:56 by those people within harley who had appropriate expertise i hope so yeah yes and if there was nobody within harley with appropriate expertise then specifically to raise it with those
00:35:08 specifically to raise it with those elsewhere
00:35:09 elsewhere in the contract group yeah i think we did
00:35:13 did we did you say all right we'll come to that
00:35:17 that [Music]
00:35:20 [Music] do i take it from what you're telling us is that you didn't think you personally needed to understand the regulatory framework so building regulations approved document b
00:35:31 document b and relevant industry guidance in order to carry out your role properly as project manager no
00:35:40 you say no i mean i think you're agreeing with me that you didn't think it was necessary just to be clear all right
00:35:51 do you agree that you as project manager couldn't
00:35:54 couldn't properly inspect the installation of cavity barriers by harley or holly subcontractors without knowing the requirements of
00:36:05 without knowing the requirements of approved document b to the building regulations specifically paragraph nine my role as a project manager as i understood it wasn't to
00:36:14 wasn't to wasn't to be inspecting such things you say wasn't to inspect such things do you mean not to inspect cavity barriers or not to inspect anything for
00:36:25 or not to inspect anything for compliance
00:36:28 yeah correct which is it of those two an inspection in my mind would be carried out by an independent third party
00:36:37 party as i explained to you i did snagging which i see is a separate process to inspection were you familiar with part nine or section nine of approved document b to the building regulations
00:36:50 um i'm i'm not sure of the parts i was familiar with but i had seen parts of document b yes okay did you ever have any training prior to
00:37:01 did you ever have any training prior to your involvement with the grenfell tower project
00:37:04 project uh which would help you understand approved document b or the building regulations or the industry guidance no
00:37:13 did harley ever provide you with any formal or internal competency training to keep you up to date with industry codes of practice for the design and
00:37:24 codes of practice for the design and installation of cladding and windows not that time though not at that time when it sounds as if you're telling us that it did but later
00:37:35 that it did but later is that right no no that's not correct it's not right so even today harley doesn't provide its employees
00:37:42 employees with such training and competency awareness is that right well i think our awareness now is lot greater yes but even now is there any training
00:37:54 yes but even now is there any training um yeah i'd say it was in-house right
00:38:03 i i want to turn to ask you some questions about the role of assessing compliance with the building regulations and approved document b within harley the first was there to
00:38:15 within harley the first was there to your
00:38:15 your knowledge and recollection anybody within harley whose area of expertise and responsibility on this project grenfell was to assess products and designs to make sure they
00:38:27 products and designs to make sure they did comply with the building regulations and associated guidance the design and technical manager and who was that
00:38:35 was that uh daniel anchor jones right
00:38:42 and in relation to the grenfell tower project
00:38:47 project did you ever think that it was your role to be considering far performance of the materials and design of the facade for grenfell
00:38:58 no whose role did you think that was uh again the designer technical manager and again is that daniel angel jones
00:39:09 and again is that daniel angel jones yes
00:39:12 can i show you some of his evidence can i ask you to be shown please day 37 of page 57
00:39:24 i'd like to look with you together at line
00:39:27 line four and we're going to look down to line 14. at line four miss grange who was examining
00:39:39 four miss grange who was examining mr ankertal james last week asked him this question whose job was it within harley at the time of the grenfell project to think about fire answer there was nobody assigned across
00:39:51 answer there was nobody assigned across the whole company to do that role question so just nobody was assigned to do it no
00:39:56 do it no each individual person would look after the responsibility on their project right so does that mean it felt to kevin lam to be thinking about fire on the grenfell project answer it
00:40:07 fire on the grenfell project answer it would fall on kevin and ben question kevin and ben okay and then she changes to a different topic now i just want to ask you about the answer at line 13 it would
00:40:19 about the answer at line 13 it would fall on kevin and ben do you agree or do you disagree with mr ankertal james's assessment that thinking about fire on the grenfell tower project would fall on your shoulders
00:40:34 i disagree on the basis of thinking about it in terms of compliance obviously everyone's aware of um it has an issue but in terms of the
00:40:45 um it has an issue but in terms of the compliance it's hard to disagree
00:40:49 right when you say everyone's aware of it as an issue can you be a little bit more specific how was it your role at the time to think about fire in any respect
00:41:06 in any respect i i don't know what else means by that right and narrowing it down then thinking about compliance with any aspect of the facade design or products
00:41:17 aspect of the facade design or products with the regulatory regime relating to fire
00:41:22 fire do you agree or do you disagree with mr angel james that that fell on your shoulders i disagree right are you are you able to explain why daniel andrew jones
00:41:33 daniel andrew jones thought that you might have responsibility for thinking about fire in that sense no
00:41:41 did you consider yourself part of the design team on the grenfell tower project
00:41:47 project no
00:41:52 do you agree or do you disagree with mr angel james's evidence that there was nobody assigned across the whole company harley
00:41:59 harley to do that role perform that role i disagree i disagree again are you able to explain how um mr ankertle jones was able to say
00:42:10 how um mr ankertle jones was able to say what he said in that respect his job title was designing technical manager
00:42:18 i don't know what did you understand by his job title what did you understand he was supposed to do
00:42:26 to do um well design manager um he would oversee the designers working on individual products and then technical would you know help them with the the
00:42:39 you know help them with the the regulatory issues around such designs right
00:42:46 you say design and technical manager what was do you remember what his formal job title was i believe that was it right and to your knowledge and your understanding at the time did the
00:42:58 understanding at the time did the job with that title extend to the to assessing compliance of the proposed products
00:43:04 products and materials for the grenfell tower project
00:43:08 project with applicable standards and industry guidance
00:43:14 i think by the time it gets to a sub-contract such as us there is an expectation that compliance has already been considered and uh dan's role is just to further
00:43:25 and uh dan's role is just to further check that
00:43:32 yes can i then in the light of that answer ask you to look at the evidence of ray bailey which is day
00:43:40 is day 32 please day 32 page 17.
00:43:54 page 17. and i'd like to go to line 21 if we can
00:44:01 and at line 21 uh i put to ray bailey uh in harley was it the job of the technical manager
00:44:12 was it the job of the technical manager to assess technical compliance of the products
00:44:15 products answer yes now just pausing there do you agree with ray bailey's answer there
00:44:25 yes uh and the next question i see and at the time of the grenfell of grenfell tower that was down anchored jones was it answer yes
00:44:36 jones was it answer yes if it's just over the page we see the answer at line one
00:44:41 at page 18. it was he says question yes i see
00:44:47 do you agree with ray bailey's answer there yes
00:44:51 there yes can i now ask you to look please at what mr ankle jones said when he was asked about this last week can i please ask for the transcript for day 35 of page 125 to be shown to the witness
00:45:06 day thirty five page one two five
00:45:12 and i'd like to look together with you mr bailey at line fifteen and following at line 15 you can see it ms grange asked mr uncle
00:45:24 you can see it ms grange asked mr uncle jones this question in his evidence last week mr ray bailey indicated that at the time of the grenfell project you were the technical manager and that your job was to assess the technical
00:45:35 your job was to assess the technical compliance of products that was a day 32 1721 do you agree with that were you the technical manager answer no i don't i don't think i was
00:45:46 answer no i don't i don't think i was made a technical manager until i don't know end of 2015 beginning of 2016. perhaps because i hadn't had any training in that area yet question so there was a distinction was
00:45:59 question so there was a distinction was there within harley and if we can go over the page between the role of design manager which you say you did perform and the role of technical manager which you say you didn't perform until later is that correct answer that's correct
00:46:14 is that correct answer that's correct as design manager was your job or part of your job to assess the technical compliance of products answer no now mr bailey can i ask you at the time
00:46:26 now mr bailey can i ask you at the time of the grenfell tower project do you recall whether mr anchor jones had been promoted to technical manager yet when you were involved
00:46:36 i i don't recall to your understanding was it right that as a design manager he would he would be required or he wouldn't be required to assess technical compliance of the
00:46:47 to assess technical compliance of the products
00:46:53 i think that's something you could expect
00:46:56 expect as well what did you expect him to be to do in that respect well yeah to assess the compliance right
00:47:09 so in a nutshell you uh agree with ray bailey's evidence and disagree with daniel nakato james's evidence correct thank you
00:47:27 can i then ask you to look at mr albuston's evidence he gave evidence uh on day 35 and can the witness please be shown the transcript for day 35 at page 32
00:47:45 and at page 32 line 1 i asked mr alberton this question if mark harris or ray bailey told you to price a particular product did you understand
00:47:56 particular product did you understand that
00:47:57 that it had been checked in order to make sure that it was suitable answer yes i would have done yes who did you think
00:48:05 you think would do that checking answer either ray bailey or daniel ankartal jones question i see so was it your expectation that anything in the nbs specification would be checked by ray bailey or daniel
00:48:17 would be checked by ray bailey or daniel ankartal jones for its suitability for application on this project that's right yes
00:48:26 and just just ending the line of questioning there would it to the best of your recollection have been the role of ray bailey to
00:48:33 bailey to undertake a check for compliance
00:48:39 i think in practice that was
00:48:43 given to dan today
00:48:47 was there in harley at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower project a
00:48:51 project a formal checking process whereby compliance with the building regulations and associated guidance would be undertaken
00:49:02 would be undertaken uh i don't know and i think i'll just say that
00:49:07 say that i would at that point hadn't been involved in um a job at that sort of early stage
00:49:19 uh which time are you talking about specifically in that answer so when he comes in for a tender
00:49:26 tender that's why wherever he's you know i see you became involved as project manager on grenfell from february 2015
00:49:37 manager on grenfell from february 2015 from that time onwards let me ask the question
00:49:41 question was there within harley that during that time
00:49:45 time a formal process for ensuring compliance with the building regulations and associated guidance so in my view um by that time i've become involved in the project
00:49:56 the project um and i'm talking about not maybe not the calendar date that you're talking about i'm talking about the life span of the project when we received it when we finished it when i get involved in that point i'm not aware of any um checklist but
00:50:08 i'm not aware of any um checklist but thank you
00:50:09 thank you let's say it wasn't done before thank you now can i ask you about the role of kevin lam
00:50:15 kevin lam at any time during your involvement to the best of your recollection did you or ray bailey tell kevin lam to take the architect's drawings as read
00:50:29 i i didn't you didn't do you know whether whether ray bailey did i don't do you remember whether either you or ray bailey
00:50:40 ray bailey told kevin lam words to the effect of that he didn't need to check the architect's drawings to make sure they complied
00:50:49 complied with the statutory guidance or industry standards
00:50:54 standards i don't remember
00:51:00 did you or ray bailey ever tell him to assume
00:51:05 assume that the architect had considered all questions of compliance
00:51:11 i i certainly didn't no
00:51:16 and do you know anything from the best of your recollection about whether you're far whether ray bailey did i don't right
00:51:26 if you had a question
00:51:29 about compliance
00:51:32 who would you have raised that with within harley
00:51:39 dan i expect what about outside harley uh the architect and building control
00:51:54 and then when i say the arduino bonus that means through ryden as well right if you saw the architect's drawings
00:52:06 saw the architect's drawings were you sufficiently qualified or educated to use a word previously used to know whether a drawing was compliant
00:52:18 to know whether a drawing was compliant with the building regulations and guidance
00:52:20 guidance or non-compliant i'd say not
00:52:31 if you had seen something on the drawings which didn't look right to use a collective expression or didn't fit with what you'd heard who would you raise that with
00:52:43 on which drawing sorry well if you had any drawings if you'd received any drawings and you saw something that didn't look quite right or didn't fit with what you'd heard about products or design or anything
00:52:54 about products or design or anything like that
00:52:55 like that who would you raise that with
00:52:58 um
00:53:02 you know i'd imagine kevin to be in with dan right
00:53:11 [Applause] internally to be a little bit more specific and i think i know the answer but i feel like to ask it anyway where either you or ray bailey qualified to make a decision as to
00:53:24 qualified to make a decision as to whether there should or shouldn't be cavity barriers around the windows on grenfell
00:53:31 i i don't think i would have been able to make a
00:53:35 to make a a judgment based on my knowledge at the time
00:53:40 time and what about ray bailey would he have been
00:53:43 been qualified to make or able to make such a judgment do you think
00:53:51 i don't know all right can i then turn to your experience on previous projects and specifically the merit house project
00:54:03 specifically the merit house project married house was in collindale wasn't it yes
00:54:05 it yes in north london um was that a building over 18 meters in height it was do you know how
00:54:12 know how how high it was
00:54:15 best my recollection it was 10 11 12 stories right and did that project entail or involve a rain screen cladding refurbishment
00:54:27 a rain screen cladding refurbishment it was predominantly a curtain wall installation but it did have a smaller areas of range being cladding
00:54:36 yes and were those small areas of rain screen cladding above 18 meters or below eight solely below 18 meters um they had elements above 80 meters yes
00:54:48 they had elements above 80 meters yes above
00:54:51 do you know what the rain screen cladding material product was on that project it was a luca bond it was a leuco bond yeah acm a leukobond
00:55:04 it was a leuco bond yeah acm a leukobond yeah yes do you know whether the aluka bond
00:55:08 bond on that project was pe core or did it have a fr core i believe it was pe although at the time i'd never heard it referred i've never
00:55:20 i'd never heard it referred i've never heard of the call referred to as anything right um it's time when i say i believe it was pe that's what i know now i see so does that tell us at the time
00:55:31 i see so does that tell us at the time of your involvement on the merit house project
00:55:33 project there was simply no discussion or thought given to the nature of the corps i believe so yes okay
00:55:43 do you know or do you remember whether any considerations were given by you or anybody else at harley to the fire safety of the cladding
00:55:54 fire safety of the cladding on the merit house project i don't remember
00:56:00 prior to the grenfell tower project what was your experience of facade refurbishments using acm was it limited to the merit house project
00:56:10 project um on the basis i was involved with it was merit house yes
00:56:19 i see and do you remember whether on merit house the acm was in a fixed panel form rivets or was it cassette it was face fixed it was face fixed
00:56:30 was face fixed and do you remember what the insulation was that was kingsman k15 kingsman k15
00:56:43 kingsman k15 just want to ask you one or two questions about previous cladding fires do you agree that as a project manager uh on a
00:56:54 project manager uh on a project for harley being a specialist subcontractor you had a responsibility to keep up to date with developments in the cladding industry generally
00:57:09 i think in terms of my role in terms of the management side of it the health and safety side of it for the guys on site yeah and i i did
00:57:20 yeah and i i did keep up to date with you know those kind of matters yes were you or did you keep up to date with any previous fires that had been linked to the use of acm as a rain screen
00:57:31 to the use of acm as a rain screen cladding material or product at that time i wasn't aware of any um fires
00:57:38 fires linked to the rain screen right so i think i can take this quite shortly is you wouldn't have been aware of the historic fires in the uk such as noseley heights
00:57:49 heights noslee leslie heights in 1991 or garnet caught in
00:57:53 caught in irvine in 1999 no what about the fire at lachnal house in southwark in london it was not
00:57:59 was not you weren't right what about the spate of fires
00:58:03 of fires in the high-rise buildings in the uae in 2012 and 2013. i was not no and um what about the the fires at the address downtown hotel
00:58:14 the fires at the address downtown hotel or the torch residential building in dubai in 2015.
00:58:19 so eddie have you ever heard of any acm fires
00:58:24 um the only far is aware of um that you could say had an asian product on the building was tampo house but that was
00:58:36 house but that was my only awareness but i didn't wasn't aware of that as a cladding fire right and you'd how do you become
00:58:43 become aware of the tappler house fire
00:58:49 does my involvement with the company um in my time when i worked there during the holidays i think right i see did you read the uh abseil
00:59:00 right i see did you read the uh abseil report or the other report relating to the fire
00:59:02 the fire not the time though not at the time not at the time of your involvement with grenfell
00:59:06 grenfell no either right i see let's turn then to look at some of your an early involvement in grenfell um can i ask you to look at paragraph seven of your statement please
00:59:20 it's on page two
00:59:24 and you say there that you first began to be copied into emails this is in the third line relating to grenfell tower from around september 2014
00:59:35 from around september 2014 and then you became more in fact actively involved in around february 2015.
00:59:41 2015. um can we look at some detail on that can we look first please at har40
00:59:54 now this is an email from rob maxwell to kevin lam copy to you on the 21st of january 2015 and he writes uh at the bottom
01:00:07 and he writes uh at the bottom please copy in ben on all correspondence from now on as he is able to spend a lot more time on the project now
01:00:16 and the subject of that email just to give you some context is drawings do you remember what happened in december 2014 january 2015 which enabled you to become
01:00:28 january 2015 which enabled you to become more involved in the grenfell tower project
01:00:36 i think that must be in reference to
01:00:40 the progress we had at merit house i see so merit house was coming to an end or your role in it was coming to an end and you were able to spend more time yeah i remember certainly
01:00:51 certainly um our site cabins our site presence was removed from merit house in january 2015 so
01:00:59 so things were starting to wind down there right who
01:01:03 right who well was there a harley project manager on the grenfell tower project before you took on that role um i believe robert was performing that role
01:01:14 role rob rob maxwell is that yeah yes and when did he start acting as project manager for harley on the grenfell tower project do you remember
01:01:26 not from any first-hand knowledge but from what i've seen it was from early days right when you came into the project did you take any steps to familiarize yourself
01:01:37 take any steps to familiarize yourself with the work done so far and the plans for it um i think at some point we may have had a a meeting
01:01:48 a meeting where you know i've been walked through some of the early stage drawings and the you know the general um
01:01:58 idea of what we were being asked to do and who would that meeting have been with do you remember i don't remember an exact meeting right remember when it was
01:02:10 not without guessing
01:02:14 did you actually have a formal handover from rob maxwell not that i remember did you review the nbs specification when you came into the project as
01:02:25 when you came into the project as project manager it's hard to save me now if i reviewed that at the time because i have i did read parts of the nba spec that was sort of relating to our package of
01:02:37 was sort of relating to our package of works
01:02:38 works throughout the job so i have a memory of parts of it but i don't remember you know it's hard to remember
01:02:44 remember at which point sometime that happened
01:02:50 did you did anybody provide you with a written job specification for project manager at grenfell no
01:03:01 for project manager at grenfell no did anybody explain to you in detail what exactly you were supposed to do in that role um i think they must have done because i had
01:03:12 had the role in my head was planning logistics
01:03:16 logistics uh dealing with suppliers things of that nature
01:03:19 nature did anybody spell that out to you you say it was in your head but how did it come into your head so again i don't have a
01:03:30 so again i don't have a crystal clear memory of a sit down and that being explicitly said to me but it's
01:03:36 it's that that's the role in my head right so it may have happened who actually appointed you to the role of project manager um
01:03:47 it may have been rob actually right rob maxwell as the contracts manager let me ask the question slightly differently who actually made the ultimate decision
01:03:58 actually made the ultimate decision within harley that it would be you who would take over from rob maxwell as the project manager i mean i don't know who definitely made the decision
01:04:09 the decision but i'm
01:04:14 it's best my recollection it was rob who told me
01:04:18 told me you know this is your next job right so i think and and what what did he do in thereafter of his involvement with the project
01:04:29 the project um i think he
01:04:33 took more of a back seat and from what you've said earlier do we take it that he never said to you and this is what you're going to do on the project and it's spelled out to you precisely what tasks you have as i said i don't have a clear recollection of
01:04:45 i don't have a clear recollection of that
01:04:48 [Applause] when you came into the project you told us about the nbs spec did you read harley's tender document dated the 29th of january 2014
01:05:02 um i believe i would have done because i think i picked out some stuff later in the job from the budget sheet and pricing from it did you read harley's unsigned letter of
01:05:14 did you read harley's unsigned letter of intent
01:05:15 intent and the appendices to it dated the 25th of july 2014. um i don't remember reading the letter of intent
01:05:24 of intent um with the appendices there was lots of different appendices on it so to say i didn't really depend it sees
01:05:32 it sees all of the appendices would be wrong but i did read some of them okay but we'll look at that in a moment um just in general terms did you have any discussions do you remember with any of your colleagues at harley about the general contractual obligations that
01:05:43 the general contractual obligations that harley owed um i don't think so
01:05:49 what did you understand harley's scope of works to be when you came into the project
01:05:57 well broadly speaking is to productionize the architects intent for the range screen
01:06:08 and carry that through to an installed product
01:06:11 product i mean you know including the insulation and curtain all areas building right um when you say productionize the architect's intent for the rain screen
01:06:24 architect's intent for the rain screen can you perhaps explain in a little bit more detail what productionizing the architect's inte intent meant or involved so the architect
01:06:35 or involved so the architect in my view would design the overall facade of what they wanted and you know as a as a design and as a something that's aesthetically pleasing
01:06:47 that's aesthetically pleasing what they don't do is you know break that down into parts that can be
01:06:53 can be fabricated and manufactured and that's really what i think arnold comes into is take that in you know design an intent
01:07:02 intent into something that can be built and the transformation from intent to productionization to use your word
01:07:10 your word would involve further design would it i think it i'm not sure if it would
01:07:17 involve developing the design i think when you say further design it's you know down to the components of it right
01:07:34 in order to do your job as project manager on the harley on the harley involvement in the grenfell grandfather project properly you say you didn't read the letter of intent would it not have assisted you
01:07:46 intent would it not have assisted you to have familiarized yourself with the letter of intent in order to know more precisely what harley was supposed to do
01:07:57 harley was supposed to do um i actually think i derived a lot of my
01:08:03 information as we said from our you asked about the attended documents earlier on what also we had for from bryden was a very detailed valuation sheet and in that valuation she detailed
01:08:14 she detailed quite um clearly the uh the areas that we were expected to do so from my view what i was doing i was using that a lot as a reference
01:08:26 that a lot as a reference i see in terms of what we were expected to do when you say a valuation sheet is there is that was that part of the request for the tender
01:08:39 request for the tender or was that part of the tender document that you saw i don't recall i see well let's look at the letter of intent to go and see how far we go with what you know don't know what knew and didn't know
01:08:51 can we look at it it's har five zeros one two zero
01:08:59 now this is not actually dated the 25th of july 2014 but it came from zach maynard of ryden to harley on the 25th of july 2014
01:09:12 the 25th of july 2014 to mark harris have you seen this document before today yes yes do you remember looking at
01:09:23 today yes yes do you remember looking at it
01:09:24 it during your role as project manager at grenfell
01:09:29 again i i've seen it recently and it's hard to say whether i'd seen it before that now
01:09:35 that now right so that we're clear do we take it that when you came into the project you didn't
01:09:41 didn't actually make a specific effort to look at this document and understand exactly what it was that harley was telling or what the ryden was telling harley what it wanted
01:09:54 i don't recall but okay
01:09:58 now let's just look at it page one it sets out the authorized works under compliance uh in fact i'm sorry just above compliance design of facade works
01:10:10 design of facade works the authorized works and then underneath that it says compliance the authorized works must comply with the following then we can see a number of appendices referred to you've got appendix f and appendix b c d
01:10:23 you've got appendix f and appendix b c d g e down the page um can we look first at appendix d because you said earlier that you you you did look at some of the appendices
01:10:34 you did look at some of the appendices appendix d is at har50391 please
01:10:43 and can i ask you to look first of all at page one and is that something familiar to you appendix d pre-contract interview um it's not no no let's look at page two
01:10:56 um it's not no no let's look at page two see how far we go on page two look at clause
01:11:00 clause four drawings and under 4.2 subcontractor drawings and you see that n a and then at the bottom there's a note all drawings and specifications received
01:11:12 all drawings and specifications received by
01:11:12 by us that's ryden will be commented upon and approved in principle only and then it says this the subcontractor remains fully responsible for the design including relevant compliance's design
01:11:24 including relevant compliance's design and dimensional integration did you read or note that at the time i don't think so did anybody tell you that that harley's responsibility to
01:11:38 that that harley's responsibility to ryden
01:11:39 ryden was that harley would remain fully responsible for the design including relevant compliances design and dimensional integration
01:11:49 not so not familiar with right do you accept that it was your job as project manager to manage the project so as to ensure
01:12:00 to manage the project so as to ensure that the design of the facade was compliant with what it says here the relevant compliances design and dimensional integration
01:12:13 i don't think it was you don't think it was
01:12:17 was do you think that or did you think that it was anybody's job in harley to ensure that the design of the facade was compliant with the relevant compliances design and dimensional
01:12:28 compliances design and dimensional integration no i my opinion it was always the architect that performed that role
01:12:40 are you aware of any occasion when harley told ryden that despite what was written in this note harley would not remain either fully or
01:12:51 harley would not remain either fully or at all responsible for the design including relevant compliances design and dimensional integration
01:12:59 could you say that again please yes are you aware from your own experience and recollection of any occasion when harley told ryden that despite what's written in the
01:13:10 ryden that despite what's written in the note here
01:13:12 note here harley wouldn't remain responsible either fully or at all uh for the design including relevant compliances design and dimensional integration
01:13:24 design and dimensional integration i don't know right let's look at uh
01:13:30 har-3039
01:13:35 this is the schedule of information described as appendix f and we can see at the top of the page it's described as envelope package schedule of information and then there's
01:13:46 schedule of information and then there's a list
01:13:47 a list of specifications and then a longer list of drawings just looking at it on its on the screen there mr bailey are you familiar with this document
01:13:58 um
01:14:02 i've seen the list of architects drawings before or whether it came from this document i'm unsure do you remember seeing this schedule at the time
01:14:11 the time or appendix the arctic drawings no the appendix f i remember seeing appendix f at the time
01:14:18 i don't remember no all right um as we can see um it incorporates a list of documents do you think you'd been provided with those documents
01:14:33 um
01:14:40 the kc to me kctmo code of conduct um is something i remember
01:14:50 being aware of or reading that's the only one i have a memory of well um let's go to page three
01:15:07 on there you can see that the appendix at the top of the page penultimate entry just above asbestos surveys refers to something called
01:15:18 surveys refers to something called lo1212 spec double01 now that was a specification produced by curtin's consulting and i'll show it to you it's a art
01:15:30 and i'll show it to you it's a art 50914 please and you can see that it's it's produced
01:15:41 and you can see that it's it's produced by curtin's consulting on the first of march 2013 we can see in the middle of the page the designation la1212 spec double zero one and the title of this document is
01:15:53 and the title of this document is specification structural performance specification for the design supply and application of overclouding systems to grenfell tower for studio e just looking at that first page there mr
01:16:04 just looking at that first page there mr bailey do you remember whether you looked at this document at the time no do you know why or whether there's any reason why you didn't or wouldn't have looked at this document at the time
01:16:16 document at the time i'm not aware of any specific reason right
01:16:19 right do you accept that this is an important document because it sets out the specification for the design of the cladding system
01:16:26 it appears to be here now if we go to um page three of this document we can look at section one
01:16:38 and again let's see how far we go with this if you weren't familiar with it at the time
01:16:43 the time at the top of the page it says in the second sentence all works shall be designed supplied and constructed by the contractor were you aware at the time that in the
01:16:55 were you aware at the time that in the case of grenfell harley was the subcontractor engaged to design the building envelope
01:17:05 uh yeah but with
01:17:09 what i said before about products and productionization yes i understand i understand the qualification and in general terms would it be fair to say that you knew that ryden would be reliant on
01:17:21 you knew that ryden would be reliant on harley's specialist knowledge as the specialist cladding subcontractor in respect to the design and installation of the facade
01:17:32 yes as well as the architect
01:17:37 now let's look at page four
01:17:43 and look at section four um
01:17:59 and look at section four um perhaps we can actually go ahead to page nine
01:18:08 first of all um on page nine it says uh at section six design and if you look at the third entry from
01:18:19 and if you look at the third entry from the end
01:18:20 the end you can see that the contractor is expressly required to consider the need for effective fire barriers did you know that at the time did you know at the time that the cladding subcontractor was
01:18:33 that the cladding subcontractor was going to be responsible for the need for effective fire barriers or to take that into account yes yes you did
01:18:43 can we look at page 11 and section seven
01:18:53 over cladding and there are two subsections there this says subsection seven
01:18:58 seven one thirteen and seven one fourteen seven one thirteen refers to compliance with the recommendations of br the br document fire performance of external thermal insulation for walls of multi-story building second edition 2003
01:19:11 multi-story building second edition 2003 or in shorthand bre-135 were you aware yourself of the existence or contents of br135 referred to there i wasn't aware of that document at the time were you aware that compliance
01:19:23 time were you aware that compliance of the system which harley was responsible for had to comply as a matter of this contractual document with the terms of br135
01:19:34 so as you said in terms of this contractual document i wasn't aware of right that looking at seven one
01:19:42 seven one seven one fourteen the system shall not be a fire risk at any stage of the ins of installation nor shall it constitute a fire hazard after completion if for any reason the insulin becomes exposed again
01:19:53 exposed again were you aware that that was part of harley's contractual obligation that it had assumed to ryden
01:20:05 that it had assumed to ryden i mean i was aware of the overall um you know
01:20:08 know concept of that but again as not as a specific clause in this contract right can we go
01:20:17 can we go to section four of the specification uh which which is on page eight just go back
01:20:28 uh the uh yeah um we'll look at section four compliance with general standards were you aware that harley had to comply
01:20:40 were you aware that harley had to comply with
01:20:41 with and look at the first entry all statutory instruments and then a little bit lower down the building regulations 2000 and subsequent amendments and then three up from the bottom bre digests and information papers were you
01:20:52 digests and information papers were you aware
01:20:53 aware in your role as project manager that harley had to comply with
01:20:58 those
01:21:03 maybe not you know as specifically as they're written but in terms of following the building regulations i think yeah everyone knows right
01:21:15 think yeah everyone knows right and if you turn the page to section five specific standards of compliance you can see the very bottom there uh the specific standards of compliance
01:21:26 the specific standards of compliance included at the end of a long list center for walling and cladding technology that should be c wct standards for walls with vertical rain screens 1998 were you familiar with that standard um
01:21:39 standard um at the time i was aware of the cwct but i don't think i'd read
01:21:47 i'd read that document and presumably you therefore were not aware that harley owed a duty to rhyme to make sure that
01:21:59 owed a duty to rhyme to make sure that those standards or guidance was complied with
01:22:07 as i said before i mean it's implied everywhere that the building regulations had to be followed but in terms as i said in terms of specific cause in here i wasn't aware of it
01:22:19 in here i wasn't aware of it at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower project had you heard of something called dom 2 articles of agreement and subcontract conditions not no no that's a no is it right
01:22:31 not no no that's a no is it right would it follow from that answer that you were not aware that harley's contract with ryden incorporated the conditions of dom ii articles of agreement and subcontract conditions
01:22:43 conditions no right
01:22:48 were you aware of a general obligation on harley
01:22:53 on harley not to substitute materials or use substitute materials or products that were different from those that were included in the specification without the specific consent
01:23:03 consent of ryden was i aware of the clause were you aware of it in general never mind whether it's in a clause or not were you aware in general that harley wasn't allowed to substitute materials or products that
01:23:15 to substitute materials or products that were different from those that were included in the specification
01:23:24 at the time obviously i wasn't aware of the clause as such no
01:23:32 no um you may not have been aware of the clause
01:23:36 clause but in general were you aware of a general obligation let me put it differently to you were you
01:23:43 you aware
01:23:47 that harley had had promised right and that there would be no change to materials that were set out in the specification unless ryden consented to such a change
01:24:04 um
01:24:08 in terms of explicit awareness no
01:24:14 were you aware that harley had to tell ryden if there were any discrepancies that it's spotted between the design and the statutory requirements and the
01:24:25 and the statutory requirements and the requirements of guidance it whose design
01:24:34 in our design hall any design um i'd say to any design design whether or not done by studio e i think yeah if we i think if anyone had
01:24:45 i think yeah if we i think if anyone had seen a problem it would be pointed out
01:24:53 did you know that the terms of ryden's contract with the tmo the design and build jct form contract were also incorporated into the contract
01:25:05 were also incorporated into the contract between ryden and harley so that it was basically a back-to-back contract
01:25:11 contract um i was not aware of that right [Music]
01:25:21 mr chairman i'm going to turn to a completely different topic now well that would probably be a good moment i think it would be couldn't it yes yes thank you we'll have a break now mr bailey um we're going to
01:25:32 we're going to come back at 10 to 12 please okay and let me remind you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it
01:25:38 with it while you're out of the room of course all right thank you thank you very much would you give the usher please
01:25:53 would you give the usher please 10 to 12 please
01:42:33 yes would you ask mr bailey to come back in please okay
01:42:51 all right mr bailey ready to carry on i am good thank you yes mr mr chairman thank you mr bailey i'd like to explore the topic of insulation at grenfell with you now if i can can i ask you to go please first to
01:43:03 can i ask you to go please first to paragraph 26 of your witness statement on page now you say there
01:43:15 four lines down from the top of the paragraph the insulation was celatex rs 5000 which was a rigid board
01:43:24 board type of insulation its appearance was of a yellow
01:43:27 a yellow rigid foam with unbranded silver foil faces on the front and back but not around the edges now first having shown you that can we look at
01:43:37 look at a contemporaneous document cel409874 please
01:43:51 now you may not have seen this document before or certainly not at the time i'll tell you what it is it's a cellotex salesforce database entry date of the 10th of june
01:44:02 database entry date of the 10th of june 2014 and we we need to blow it up a bit um but it it it if you look uh at um the document it relates to
01:44:14 uh at um the document it relates to merit house as you can see from the right hand side and underneath merit house it says ben bailey do you see that yes yes
01:44:25 ben bailey do you see that yes yes and this particular task was assigned to someone called mark willoughby at celetex was mark willoughby somebody familiar to you do you remember it's not a name that i remember right
01:44:38 it's not a name that i remember right and the tar the celetex task type if you look at the left hand column incoming call activity type technical assistance task topic call due date 10th of june
01:44:50 task topic call due date 10th of june 2014
01:44:52 2014 and just pausing there that was at a time i think when you were working on the merit house from what you told us earlier is that right would it be yes yes and underneath it says
01:45:03 says comments ben called to ask if we had an alternative to kingspan k15
01:45:12 project is over 18 meters so could not help at this time needed product on-site in two weeks let me know
01:45:20 me know that they have just been awarded two new overcloud projects in london in autumn once we have 18 meter fire test inform
01:45:28 inform ben and team so that we can win spec um
01:45:35 spec um do you remember telling mr willoughby or anyone else at celetex at that time that harley had just been awarded two new everclad projects in london in the autumn
01:45:48 projects in london in the autumn um as i say mark willoughby's not a name i'm familiar with the only person i can remember speaking to at celetex is jonathan room right
01:46:01 celetex is jonathan room right and i can give you some more context this may be jonathan was a fairly regular visitor to the office asking these kind of questions about
01:46:13 asking these kind of questions about um what jobs were tendering for what jobs where you know we've got um obviously with a view to
01:46:22 in general do you remember ringing celetex in about june 2014 and telling them
01:46:30 them that you had won two new overcloud projects in london i don't know now we can see from a later document
01:46:37 document that one of those projects was grenfell tower and the other was a project in telford
01:46:42 telford remember the project in telford um telford's completely new to me right um do you remember whether celetex told you as we can see here
01:46:54 as we can see here from this contemporaneous document that they would soon have a product that was available for use on buildings over 18 meters
01:47:00 meters yes
01:47:03 you do remember that well i don't remember if it was at that time right it's
01:47:11 did uh mr willoughby or the person you spoke to at celetex so far as you can remember uh mentioned fr 5000
01:47:22 uh mentioned fr 5000 at all no did you know in june 2014 about celetex fr 5000 no
01:47:32 did you understand that celetex had no products that could be for insulation that could be used above 18 meters at that point in time
01:47:43 above 18 meters at that point in time yes
01:47:43 yes you did okay does that mean that at this point
01:47:50 point turning away for a moment from the document and looking at june 2014 you were aware that there were restrictions on insulation products being used on buildings above 18 meters in height
01:48:02 on buildings above 18 meters in height yes you did know that
01:48:07 now you're asking according to this document
01:48:11 document if there's an alternative to kingspan k15
01:48:15 k15 did you think that k15 was a product that could be used on buildings in excess of 18 meters in height yes
01:48:27 we'll come back to k-15 later and explore that answer that you've given us in a bit more detail but for the moment can we stick with celetex can we look please at another celetex salesforce entry
01:48:40 salesforce entry cel409875 please
01:48:45 and if we could just have that expanded a little bit more we can see again this relates to merit house if we look at the right hand side and again your name is referred to there do you see that
01:48:59 on the right hand side merit house name ben bailey and again it's a sign to mark willoughby and this time the celetex task type is a report activity type rain screen contractor
01:49:11 contractor task topic 18 meter fire test date due date 18th of july 2014 and the comments say
01:49:23 and the comments say met ben on the merit house project to discuss current demands on site and future
01:49:28 future products projects i'm just pausing there do you remember meeting mark willoughby on the merit house site or at all to discuss
01:49:41 or at all to discuss what will it be is not a name i'm familiar with right as i said of my memories my only dealings with someone that sell attacks especially meeting someone is right well do you remember having a
01:49:53 right well do you remember having a meeting with anyone from celetex on the merit house project to discuss current demands on site and future projects
01:50:00 projects at this time so 18th or around the 18th of july 2014.
01:50:07 before you've shown me this document i had a memory of meeting jonathan broome on site at mario house you do yes right
01:50:20 so you think it was jonathan room and not mark willoughby as i said before mark williams i'm not familiar with trying to very certainly am now it goes on to say have had to use kingspan k15
01:50:33 on to say have had to use kingspan k15 as
01:50:33 as we at celetex do not currently have a product
01:50:38 product just pausing there was it fair to say that you were using k15 on merit house because celotex did not have a product for use suitable over 18 meters
01:50:51 um
01:50:54 yeah i mean i think the king's band was um specified on that job um and i said jonathan was fairly
01:51:05 um and i said jonathan was fairly regular
01:51:06 regular around and he was telling us that celetex were looking to come out with a competing product so his site visit he was keeping me up to date with you know where they were in if they got
01:51:17 you know where they were in if they got the certificate or not so i think that's why when he said they've had to use kingsman k15 because their product wasn't on the market yet right
01:51:29 were you having these discussions with mr roon because you wanted to use celetex products or was there a problem on the merit house site with using the k15 product
01:51:41 i don't recall it could be a supply issue it could be a
01:51:47 you know a response from asked to jonathan telling us about the product and you know doing his doing a sales pitch right but i don't remember
01:51:55 remember right this particular scenario
01:52:00 you don't remember okay now who it looks from this
01:52:03 from this if we go on uh that you said that you had new
01:52:07 had new projects it says uh have to or have two i think it is although it's misspelt have two new projects
01:52:16 projects that they are on the verge of winning to start later this year grenfell tower white city telford office do you remember telling jonathan room that you did have
01:52:28 jonathan room that you did have or were about to win those two projects to start later that year um it's certainly possible um i told him about granville tower but telford office is not
01:52:40 telford office is not some a job that i remember being familiar with and it's not a job
01:52:46 um so you can't explain that it goes on to say they all have also taken on two more designers in the office do you remember telling mr room that um no
01:53:32 i'm sorry i didn't hear your answer i thought you were pausing it turns out that it's
01:53:35 that it's me who is pausing um just at this point just talking about choices of products um
01:53:44 um do you remember a discussion inside harley about whether you should go for the grenfell tower project uh and let a project called karma go um i
01:53:57 go um i wouldn't have been involved in those kind of discussions so i don't remember do you know anything about the karma project
01:54:05 project [Music]
01:54:06 [Music] um
01:54:09 um i know it's in wembley right and i know you've got the job eventually but i don't know specifics about it all right um now going back to this do you remember what else was discussed at the meeting with jonathan room apart
01:54:20 at the meeting with jonathan room apart from what's written on this page here i don't know right i don't remember can we then look at another document this is cel409877
01:54:36 this is cel409877 now this is another celetex sales force entry uh and again it relates to merit house and again we see your name ben bailey there on the right hand side and
01:54:47 bailey there on the right hand side and again it's been assigned to mark will it be
01:54:49 be seletech's task advice phone advice and again a
01:54:53 again a task topic 18 meters fire test and this time the due date is 31st of august 2014. you see that and the comments
01:55:02 comments are update harley cw on 18 meter fire test to close two overcloud projects raised by ben bailey on last call um again do you remember whether
01:55:15 call um again do you remember whether you rang celetex or celetex rang you do you remember
01:55:21 i think it's likely said attacks around me right
01:55:24 me right and did you get the um well what do you remember what you were told by mr room about
01:55:29 about testing i'm sorry celetex told you about testing
01:55:34 testing um
01:55:37 i mean as i was saying before
01:55:41 um jonathan was saying that we're getting closer to the certificate being issued
01:55:47 issued and that i think that's why he's referencing the next jobs because that's when they're anticipating it to be ready just to be clear did you ever speak to anybody at celetex other than jonathan roon do you think not that i have a recollection of i'm
01:55:59 not that i have a recollection of i'm alright as i said before jonathan rooney was
01:56:05 our point of contact right
01:56:11 as a result of those discussions is it fair to say that you were aware from about this point on that celetex now had a solution for use above 18 meters
01:56:21 meters either available then or very shortly to be available that's what was being told yes right did you expect them to be in touch as soon as it was available um
01:56:33 as soon as it was available um i don't know whether i expect it to be but
01:56:38 i think jonathan was very keen very keen i see can i then just go back a little bit in time to earlier in the month
01:56:47 month august 2014 and let's look together at
01:56:54 cel401237 this is an email from jonathan roon to
01:56:58 roon to uh ben sharman at harley subject celetex rs 5000 in uh in green screen insulation launch
01:57:11 in uh in green screen insulation launch and it says hi ben uh good to speak to you again that's ben sharman just pausing there do you know what ben
01:57:22 you know what ben sharman's role within harley was he was a designer he was a designer yeah uh i was here designer specifically on the grenfell tower project or just generally um i i'd worked for him previously on
01:57:34 um i i'd worked for him previously on merit house and i don't remember the job he was working on at that time but i don't think it was grem phil do you know why jonathan rum
01:57:46 do you know why jonathan rum would have sent this email to him
01:57:50 specifically i i don't know
01:57:56 did ben sharman work as a designer on the grenfell house project at all
01:58:04 um
01:58:09 well i think ben was with us until probably
01:58:12 probably the same point in time but in 2015 he may well have done some early detail on it at the early days but i'm not sure right
01:58:24 right it goes on good to speak to you i have the pleasure of informing you as of yesterday we have now launched the first pir
01:58:30 pir board to successfully meet the performance criteria in br 135 for insulated rain screen cladding systems therefore acceptable for use in buildings above 18 meters in height
01:58:42 buildings above 18 meters in height all capitalized initially i would like to come into the office when everyone is around to present formally the new product do you
01:58:53 product do you recall any talk in the office or being told by ben sharman
01:59:00 sharman that celetex had now launched a new pir product to be able to be used above 18 meters in height
01:59:14 i don't remember um you know like a round table meeting as i said before jonathan was in regularly
01:59:23 regularly so he may well have introduced it to different people at different times right do you remember when you first became aware that celetex had launched a new pir product
01:59:34 product suitable for use on buildings above 18 meters in height
01:59:40 i don't remember when i became aware that the that it passed its tests because i was i was aware of it before that point in time so obviously i don't remember at what point in time that i was made aware that
01:59:51 point in time that i was made aware that it had passed its test you know they would say it was acceptable for use right do you remember whether uh jonathan roon came into the harley
02:00:02 jonathan roon came into the harley office to make a presentation of this product this new product well as i said i don't remember
02:00:11 right can we look at the nbs specification for grenfell tower it's sea 50169 please
02:00:22 the version that's going to go up on the screen as you can see is actually dated the 30th of january 2014 but it's very similar to the edition that was sent out to
02:00:35 to the edition that was sent out to tenderers on the 29th of november 2013 it is looking at its first page
02:00:41 page do you remember do you think you read this when you first became involved we discussed this earlier but just looking at it now did you read this when you first became involved
02:00:52 the whole of the nba specification well any part of it um i've read the um the bits that were applicable to us i think it was h92
02:01:04 applicable to us i think it was h92 um i think oh is it l10 um h4t there's bits that stick out to me but it was basically the range recording windows and doors grc curtain wall right
02:01:16 windows and doors grc curtain wall right because obviously the mbs was switched right which is very long now at this point in time and we're still talking about august 2014 did you uh look at
02:01:28 did you uh look at those parts of the nbs specification that applied to harley so far as concerns the grenfell tower project in august 2014 yes no you didn't all right
02:01:39 right when do you think you did first look at the end
02:01:43 the end those parts of the nba spot specification which were relevant to harley's work um again i don't have a i couldn't give you a date
02:01:53 a date but it you know it would be around like the time of my first involvement i would imagine
02:02:01 around your first sorry i'll clarify that in the february march sort of time frame i see okay thank you yes now can we look at page 73
02:02:11 page 73 and let's look at clause 7 7 6 together this is thermal insulation and we can see here at the top of the page there under that heading material zero
02:02:24 under that heading material zero odp rigid poly isocyanurate insulation board
02:02:28 board bre green guide rating a plus manufacturer celetex and then you can see just a little under that product reference fr 5000 aluminium foil face both sides
02:02:42 5000 aluminium foil face both sides uh do you see that i do not when you first saw this were you aware based on your previous interactions with celetex that celetex did not at the time of this nbs
02:02:56 celetex did not at the time of this nbs specification actually have a product that was suitable for use on buildings above 18 meters
02:03:04 um i i don't remember being aware of particularly when the nps was written
02:03:16 so i do think that's something that i thought of at the time
02:03:24 when you first saw the nbs specification did it occur to you did you ask yourself what that specification or what that product
02:03:34 product was and how it could be specified for use above 18 meters given that celetex did not have such a product
02:03:43 product prior to august 2014.
02:03:48 that's not something that occurred to me did you realize when you did first see the parts of the nbs specification which applied to harley that that specification was not written
02:03:59 that that specification was not written as recently as a time after august 2014. as i said before i didn't appreciate when the
02:04:08 when the mbs was written did you not look at this document
02:04:12 document carefully product by product to make sure that as as project manager you knew what products were going on to the building i think i
02:04:23 were going on to the building i think i had read
02:04:24 had read this part because i did query the fr 5000 part with the architect because i'd been led to believe up to that point rs-5000 was to be used you you queried the fr-5000 part with
02:04:36 you you queried the fr-5000 part with the architect when did you do that um as i say i don't have a specific um date for you and i i can't find an email
02:04:48 date for you and i i can't find an email where that was where it was written down but i have a recollection of informing the architect of that and it would have been around the time that i first read this spec because as i said
02:04:59 first read this spec because as i said before i was under the impression the rs 5000 was to be used and so when i saw fr 5000 i queried it do you remember who you queried it with i said the architect so
02:05:11 i said the architect so i think i'm mean neil crawford
02:05:16 do you remember what he said well let me ask it this way do you remember what you asked him
02:05:22 i mean as i say it's a conversation i had
02:05:28 five years ago but i think it would be along the lines of um i'm expecting to see rs 5000 here it doesn't say that you know what
02:05:40 it doesn't say that you know what what do we do and you know i think the response was yeah is rs 5000 and i took that as um you know as he said it should be rs
02:05:53 um you know as he said it should be rs 5000
02:05:56 you say you can't remember an email did you send him an email or was this conversation done face-to-face all over the telephone my recollection is a phone call
02:06:10 my recollection is a phone call what would have prompted the phone call do you remember seeing that in the specification and my expectation of seeing rs 5000
02:06:26 i see
02:06:34 did it occur to you that our uh that fr 5000 was not
02:06:45 that fr 5000 was not an insulation product suitable for use on a building over 18 meters
02:06:51 did it occur to me at the time yes um i can't say i've read too much into it i have to say did it occur to you that
02:07:03 i have to say did it occur to you that even though to your understanding rs 5000 which had by the time you came into the project been specified or rather been
02:07:11 been adopted might be suitable for you say for 18 meters fr 5000 wasn't
02:07:24 um as i said i i don't remember that you know triggering that sort of that sort of thought let me try and put the question
02:07:37 thought let me try and put the question slightly differently perhaps the same question when you saw fr 5000 in the nba specification did an alarm bell go off
02:07:45 off which said not for use above 18 meters
02:07:50 no it was not a product i was
02:07:56 familiar with um
02:08:00 probably thought at the time it was a typo so
02:08:03 typo so just to be really clear about your investigation of this with neil crawford as you say were you asking him
02:08:10 him simply about the change in the name of the product or did you ask him questions about its suitability it was about the name of the product i see
02:08:28 was there any discussion at all between you and mr crawford to the best of your recollection about the suitability of fr 5000 for use above 18 meters no was there any discussion to the best
02:08:40 no was there any discussion to the best of your recollection with him about the suitability of rs 5000
02:08:45 5000 above 18 meters
02:08:49 um no it was my belief that rs 5000 was
02:08:56 suitable now
02:09:00 can you remember specifically what it was that led you to think that rs 5000
02:09:08 rs 5000 had been adopted for grenfell
02:09:14 um it was my when i became involved in the job it was what i was told um the u-value calculations i had seen
02:09:25 um the u-value calculations i had seen that were produced
02:09:29 prior to my involvement all said rs 5000 on them
02:09:34 on them um and the calculations that celetex had done and the conversations i've had with jonathan room were all about rs 5000. fr 5000 was never mentioned tv and you
02:09:46 fr 5000 was never mentioned tv and you say it was what i was told do you remember who told you that um so in terms of something i can definitely remember it was the you've annotated glaciers performed by dan
02:09:57 annotated glaciers performed by dan that said ios 5000 on them
02:10:02 i see so you took rs 5000 to something from the documents you read rather than conversations that you you had as it's something i can point to um
02:10:11 um it's no physical piece of evidence yes yes now do you know who it was who ultimately made the decision
02:10:20 decision to have rs 5000 on grenfell tower
02:10:26 um
02:10:29 i believe it was the architect um you know notwithstanding my belief that
02:10:37 that the fr-5000 listed there is a is a you know mistake it should be rs 5000. now you said a little earlier on i think that neil crawford told you that rs 5000
02:10:51 that neil crawford told you that rs 5000 tell me if this is me misunderstanding your evidence but neil crawford told you that rs 5000 was the same as fr 5000 if i got that right i don't did i say i don't think i said
02:11:03 don't did i say i don't think i said that i think i think they said they intended to be rs 5000 right well let me ask it differently did you did you understand that rs 5000 was a different product to fr 5000 um
02:11:17 to fr 5000 um i can't remember what i knew then but i'm aware now that it's this it's the same product but the rs-5000
02:11:28 it's the same product but the rs-5000 had the certification right and was it your understanding that dan ankartal jones had adopted rs 5000 when doing the u value calculations
02:11:39 value calculations as opposed to fr 5 000
02:11:46 i don't know if dan had adopted it in in those terms i think he was working on the same understanding it was the product was always thought to be rs 5000. do you know how
02:11:58 thought to be rs 5000. do you know how he came to the understanding that it should be rs 5000
02:12:04 i don't know how you got kevin's understanding right so what we're really trying to get to the bottom of mr bailey is who was it within harley who actually made the decision
02:12:13 decision that rs 5000 should be used can you help me
02:12:17 me that should be used i don't know
02:12:24 did you yourself make any investigation as to how the change from fr 5000 to rs 5000 came about you told us about your discussion with mr crawford did you make any other investigation
02:12:39 i may have spoken to celebration room celetex
02:12:43 celetex um but that's not something i have a clear recollection of right did you make any investigations as to why the change had occurred from fr 5000 to rs 5000
02:13:01 in terms of investigation other than my conversation i'd had with neil um i don't remember did you in investigate given that
02:13:13 did you in investigate given that rs 5000 was a change of product from the product stipulated in the nbs specifications we've seen did you investigate whether the new
02:13:24 did you investigate whether the new product
02:13:25 product rs 5000 had been checked for compliance by anybody
02:13:35 i didn't personally check that he'd been checked for compliance i haven't you know
02:13:39 know have an expert expectation that that's the role of the architects um performing
02:13:49 did you yourself i think the answer i think you've given me the answer but just to be clear when you came into the your role as project manager in early 2015
02:13:58 2015 you did you take any steps yourself to make sure that rs 5000 had been selected
02:14:08 uh had been selected after checks had been made for compliance with the building regulations and approved document b um
02:14:18 yeah i think that was part of flagging up to neil that you know what i'm expecting to see on it i would have expected to have been um assessed
02:14:33 um assessed um is actually what they mean by that does that make sense given that he was an architect and you were not yes i think we know did you say to him do you ask him well this is a new product
02:14:44 this is a new product and does it comply with the building regulations um i don't think i'd said that explicit i would say that explicitly
02:14:56 did he say anything to you to lead you to believe that he was satisfied that rs 5000 was compliant with the building regulations um i think he was quite laid back when i
02:15:07 um i think he was quite laid back when i um
02:15:09 um pointed this out to him i think he um so to say when i say he's let you he sounded quite laid-back about it as in yes that's a type i would give me the belief or the
02:15:22 a type i would give me the belief or the expectation that um in their minds they think it should be rs 5002 and then it would have each other compliance you say yes that's a typo did he say that
02:15:34 that he may have done typo on what document the nvs but the mbs specification as we've seen has dated the uh 30th of january 2014 yeah eight
02:15:47 uh 30th of january 2014 yeah eight months before rs 5000 was even launched so how could how could that be right how could it be a typo misremember the conversation then right can you remember exactly what
02:15:58 can you remember exactly what or even generally what mr crawford did say
02:16:02 say when he raised the difference in specification with him
02:16:07 i think generally generally that it you know i was right in my expectation that i should be seeing rs 5000 on that right anything else not i recall
02:16:30 right
02:16:35 did you take any steps to correct the nbs specification
02:16:45 um i did not did you take any steps to correct or change the harley specification
02:16:58 i just want to examine jonathan room's visits to harley with you can we look at paragraph 113 of your statement this is on page 28.
02:17:22 um you say there
02:17:30 paragraph 113 page 28. this is my statement this is this is i'm so sorry this is mr this is mr ray bailey's statement i'll give you the reference again it's har har3010184
02:17:53 and he says there
02:18:07 that uh we go to the beginning of the paragraph he says that rs 5000 was relatively new type of product
02:18:20 and then if you go over the page to page 29
02:18:24 29 still within paragraph 113 he says there
02:18:31 seven lines up from the bottom of that paragraph in addition a representative of celetex jonathan room also attended harley's offices to talk with harley staff about the benefits of rs the rs 5000 product
02:18:43 rs the rs 5000 product specifically for the grenfell project you see that yes um do you remember any visits by jonathan roon about the
02:18:54 any visits by jonathan roon about the benefits of rs 5000 specifically for the grenfell tower project
02:19:01 i don't recall do you remember whether celetex visited harley house in order formally to launch the rs 5000 product
02:19:10 product as the email from jonathan room to ben sharp ben sharman showed might happen um
02:19:19 if if there was a visit i don't remember it i
02:19:22 it i may not have been there because i was more site based at that period of time do you remember in general terms why such meetings took place
02:19:33 with celetex specifically or with celestex
02:19:36 celestex um
02:19:41 i think you know generally speaking i think jonathan will come in
02:19:48 come in he's a salesman um it would be to find out current jobs jobs we're tendering for um he's there for information from our side i think
02:20:00 side i think do you remember whether anybody ever took any notes of those meetings either from harley or from celetex i'm unaware right
02:20:09 right do you recall whether harley were any were ever given any assurances by celetex as to the suitability of use of rs 5000 on buildings above 18
02:20:21 of use of rs 5000 on buildings above 18 meters
02:20:24 um i'm
02:20:28 unsure
02:20:32 do you know why jonathan room was attending
02:20:37 attending harley's offices as opposed to studio e's offices or ryden's offices to discuss the rs 5000 product
02:20:49 as i possibly alluded to earlier on it's a sales is it
02:20:56 he's there for information yes
02:21:01 it's a sales visit he's there for information i understand that but my question is why is he making a sales visit and giving information to harley as opposed to studio e
02:21:14 to harley as opposed to studio e or to ryden
02:21:20 i think what i'm saying is i don't possibly think his motivation is to give us knowledge of rs 5000 it's a it's a reason for a visit but
02:21:33 it's a it's a reason for a visit but the benefit he's getting from it is sales information i think that's the point trying to make um that why you'll be coming to ask rather than an architect isn't the reason that he's coming to
02:21:46 isn't the reason that he's coming to harley
02:21:49 as a sales visit because harley had at least a role to play if not the most influential role to play in the selection of rs 5000 as an
02:22:01 in the selection of rs 5000 as an insulation product on this project
02:22:06 no no can you explain why else he didn't go to studio e or ryden but chose to come to
02:22:20 harley
02:22:33 i think that other than what i've already said they're aware the rs 5000 have been specified on renfrew tower um so he's
02:22:45 renfrew tower um so he's coming to the office to make us aware of that fact
02:22:52 i can't offer much more than that i don't i i'm not sure i understand that you say they were aware that rs 5000 had been specified on grenfell tower but we know that it
02:23:04 on grenfell tower but we know that it hadn't been specified on grenfell tower we've seen the nbs specification which says fr 5000 so how could he be coming to the office to tell you that rs 5000 had been specified if in
02:23:17 that rs 5000 had been specified if in fact it hadn't but we may have had conversations with the architect separately to us
02:23:25 so really what i'm getting at is what would be the point of celetex coming to harley if harley had at least
02:23:32 at least well if harley had no control at all over the selection of the product
02:23:40 yeah aside from what i've already said about it being an opportunity for sales is it
02:23:45 is it it would be to um
02:23:51 offer their services as well because they did some new value calculations for us too you know so the people in the office are generally aware about the product and things like that but
02:24:08 do you remember seeing any pink celetex brochures being handed out at any of these meetings that you attended
02:24:18 as i said i don't remember attending any meetings with celetex but i know i know the brochures that you know you
02:24:27 know you do you remember seeing in seeing pink celestex brochures for rs 5000 in the harley office yes you do did you read those brochures at the time i'm unsure
02:24:41 do you remember looking at the brochures and reading what they said about fire performance
02:24:48 um my memory from that is that it had classo five performance throughout
02:24:57 your memory is that it said had class naught fire performance throughout is there a specific document you can put your finger on which said that
02:25:08 your finger on which said that um not right now no no did you review the bba certificate which related to rs 5000 i'm unsure
02:25:18 did you show jonathan room or indeed anybody else at celetex any drawings in relation to the build-up of the um cladding system at grenfell tower
02:25:29 the um cladding system at grenfell tower um
02:25:32 at the point in time in terms of a site as in terms of a meeting in the office i don't think so i'm aware we did send them some build up drawings later on
02:25:43 did anybody from seller text to your knowledge ever expressly confirm or approve
02:25:48 approve the use of rs 5000 together in combination with a rainer bond acm panel rain screen
02:25:58 not to me explicitly to anybody i had the impression that um dan had had assurances how did you get that impression um
02:26:11 how did you get that impression um from dan can you remember what he told
02:26:18 you
02:26:22 i think he said you know these things have
02:26:25 have you know these um it's been checked so this this is this product's okay
02:26:33 can you remember what he told you about the assurances he'd been given did he say what those assurances were
02:26:46 well not you know specific assurances in terms of like um parts of the specific parts of the building regulations but um in terms of this is this is okay to
02:26:58 um in terms of this is this is okay to be used here this sort of things he was saying to me do you remember whether celetex ever produced an assessment of the cladding system that
02:27:09 system that you were proposing to use at grenfell tower which would confirm that the insulation was safe to use with an acm green screen the only ones i saw are you very calculations from celtics right
02:27:23 calculations from celtics right can we look at cel3011960 please is an email dated the 27th of august 2014 from jonathan room to daniel
02:27:35 2014 from jonathan room to daniel anchored jones now you're not copied in on it so you may not have seen it at the time
02:27:39 time but we can see there that there's an attachment rain screen zip and in the second line of the email mr room says for all for now here is all of the info that i have on the rs 5000 rain
02:27:50 the info that i have on the rs 5000 rain screen product for use over 18 meters uh and now let's look at the zip file um it included a number of things
02:28:01 um it included a number of things let's see if any of them are familiar to you before i show you these were you aware of this email or at least in general terms at this time um i don't think so let's look at the
02:28:12 um i don't think so let's look at the celetex product comparison sheet see if this rings a bell with you it's
02:28:24 cel707 product comparison and there's a list of of proposed benefits down the right-hand side best-in-class pir solutions with
02:28:35 side best-in-class pir solutions with celetex
02:28:35 celetex fr 5000 etc does this document something you saw at the time do you think no no uh let's look at another one um
02:28:49 cel6012
02:28:52 please is the rain screen cladding compliance guide when specifying celetex rs 5000 in buildings above 18 meters is something that is this something that you think you saw at the time
02:29:04 you saw at the time uh i'm unsure okay you're unsure if we turn the page to the next page just to see if this prompts a recollection does that look familiar to you
02:29:14 you the two um types of construction methods set out there
02:29:20 um those kind of um sections through the insulation are pretty i'm sorry pretty common through other brochures i've seen right
02:29:31 other brochures i've seen right does it doesn't stand out to me or something that right um looking at the bottom of the page do you remember seeing what's under the heading there approved document b2 buildings
02:29:45 approved document b2 buildings with a story height greater than 18 meters have additional requirements under the national building regulations and then it uh refers to section 12.5 external wall construction and sets out what actually quotes from adb do you
02:29:57 what actually quotes from adb do you remember seeing a seller text document which does that it's like this um no no let's try one more document cel 6013
02:30:08 let's try one more document cel 6013 please this is the rain screen clouding specification guide does that look familiar to you from your recollection at the time no no okay well i
02:30:22 no no okay well i don't think i need to show you the contents of that um can we um
02:30:32 can we um look back then at the document i've just shown you
02:30:36 shown you which is the compliance guide cel 6012. uh and i'd like you to go to please to
02:30:48 uh and i'd like you to go to please to um
02:30:52 page one again page sorry we're on page one page two and we saw that a moment ago and the quotation
02:31:01 quotation from section 12.5 can we look at the next page please
02:31:07 that's entitled br 135 and there are some performance criteria set out there do you remember seeing something like that at the time
02:31:18 um well you're saying something i've seen since
02:31:23 at the time i don't think so do you remember seeing a document which told you that the classification uh only applied to the system as tested
02:31:35 uh only applied to the system as tested and detailed in the classification report
02:31:38 report as it says on the right hand side in the second paragraph there that's not something i was aware of right not something you were aware of
02:31:47 were you aware in general terms that rs 5000 would only comply with approved document b to the building regulations where
02:31:55 where where it was used above 18 meters if it was used as part of a cladding system that was exactly the same as the one the subject of the test
02:32:06 no can we then turn to your taking over in respect of rs 5000
02:32:16 5000 and some specific involvement in february 2015 cel 6024 please this is an email run on the 11th of
02:32:27 this is an email run on the 11th of february 2015 and i'd like to start at page 3 please
02:32:34 on page 3
02:32:37 at the bottom of page um two actually we go
02:32:41 go uh to an email of the 11th of february from jonathan room to you
02:32:49 hi ben looking back through my records it seems that dan had performed an initial calc using his build desk software
02:32:55 software u-value he was going to send me the drawings once finished with trinity back in november let me have the final construction drawing showing the different build ups and i will get these modeled for you now this was relatively near the start
02:33:06 now this was relatively near the start of your full involvement with the with the project wasn't it grenfell tower yes yes
02:33:11 yes um is it fair to say just looking at this and we can look at the response as well but but you were taking over from daniel anchor to jones in liaising with celetex in respect of rs 5000 from about this time yes why were you
02:33:23 from about this time yes why were you taking over from him in that liaison do you remember
02:33:33 i think it was one of the
02:33:36 first um things that rob asked me to sort of pick up and start running with i think part of that is um getting back in touch
02:33:49 part of that is um getting back in touch with
02:33:51 with celetex i think um and you know getting the ball rolling i think
02:33:59 think right now if we go to page one look at the second email down on that page please
02:34:04 please that says it's from you it's uh and it's the jonathan room same day 11th of february hi jonathan you say the drawings are in a dropbox does this link work for you um so
02:34:17 um so is it right that when you sent mr room the drawings that was expressly for him to check the u-value calculations
02:34:24 um so could you go back to the previous page yes of course if you go back to page two please
02:34:37 it doesn't say explicitly but it's probably implied yeah yeah so you didn't ask him to review the drawings and consider whether the entire system that was proposed for grenfell was safe from a fire perspective
02:34:50 was safe from a fire perspective it doesn't say that to your knowledge did mr room ever conduct any assessment of the cladding system at grenfell tower as a whole and confirmed to you that rs 5000 was safe to use in that application
02:35:03 um i think from the reply we got to this wasn't with that in mind
02:35:14 no and if we go to the top of the uh well actually we can look at cel 6025 i think we could see the response from mr room shortly after this
02:35:28 this is on the same day 11th of february and he says i've had our technical team look at the numbers for grenfell tower and then he talks about dimensions and u values there we don't
02:35:40 dimensions and u values there we don't need the details of that is it fair to say that at this stage 11th of february 2015 the specific width of the celotex product was still under consideration in order to work out the appropriate u
02:35:52 in order to work out the appropriate u values
02:35:59 um yes yes did the drawings you sent mr room show what other elements of the proposed cladding system were comprised of
02:36:06 of do you remember that um
02:36:11 as i said it's a dropbox link um we kept the work isn't we kept the current drawings for the job in a dropbox so i may be sending him a link
02:36:22 dropbox so i may be sending him a link to that rather than attaching however many
02:36:25 many attachments to an email but i don't specifically remember what is in that link right now shortly after this in march 2015 i think you began talking to jill walker at sig
02:36:36 jill walker at sig to obtain a quotation for the supply of rs 5000. do you remember that what was the date again sorry it's in march yes yes can i look at a document with you um
02:36:47 can i look at a document with you um cel6031 please
02:36:53 this is an email from jonathan room to you
02:36:57 you we look at page one second email down on the 16th of march 2015 and he says in the second paragraph which says in the first paragraph 18 mil
02:37:08 which says in the first paragraph 18 mil the eight mid i'm sorry the 80 millimeters are a standard size so it should be easy enough to get hold of
02:37:15 of and then he writes do you know which sig branch that you're using and who you speak to will then be easier for me to make sure that the pricing and supply chain is looked after for you would it be fair to say looking at that
02:37:26 would it be fair to say looking at that mr bailey that celetex were going to organize a discount or a deal on the pricing to make sure the harley were as he puts it looked after
02:37:35 after no had mr roon promised you a discount on the
02:37:38 on the on the celetex rs 5000 no now the quotation from sig was provided on the 17th of march 2015 the next day by jill walker
02:37:49 2015 the next day by jill walker and um we can go to that
02:37:58 the email is at cel6032 we don't need that i just want to show you the quotation itself cl6035 please
02:38:12 there's the quotation and this is to you or to harley uh and it's for your attention can you see that
02:38:21 see that dated the 17th of march 2015 and you can see that there's a supply and delivery only of rs 5000 specials 660 each in quantity
02:38:33 of rs 5000 specials 660 each in quantity the price is 132 pounds 19p per each and then there's a discount of minus 47.50 17 47.5 percent and the total price of
02:38:45 17 47.5 percent and the total price of 45
02:38:46 45 803 pounds odd
02:38:49 now that's a hefty discount isn't it it's almost half price i mean it would i can see why it would appear to be a large discount
02:39:03 it would appear to be a large discount well it's almost half price isn't it i don't think it's an unusual discount though all right um was this discount agreed between you and mr rooney does it agree between you and and sig
02:39:16 does it agree between you and and sig can you explain how the discount was arrived at
02:39:20 i don't have any first acknowledge of the discussion that sig and solitex would have had between them because
02:39:30 between themselves
02:39:34 but in terms of how to how do we arrive at a discount such as that i think the answer is you order a lot of it and it's it's not unusual in my experience of ordering stuff not
02:39:46 in my experience of ordering stuff not just from sig from other suppliers that large orders get a discount without even asking
02:39:57 get a discount without even asking so you weren't surprised to see a discount of this magnitude there's we had another quotation from sig for
02:40:04 sig for kingsman k15 and that whilst the discount
02:40:07 discount wasn't um the discount was less there was
02:40:11 was it's still a discount for it that wasn't asked for
02:40:16 asked for did the discount originate with celetex or with sig do you know
02:40:24 i think sig are the people giving the discount
02:40:27 discount um i think jonathan alludes in an email that i've seen to well sorry the previous email he he says sort out um supply
02:40:38 he says sort out um supply so i think it's a few things to come back from this sort out supply because in this
02:40:41 in this in this quotation they're actually quoting for a thickness that they're going to make specially for us because the 160 ml thickness wasn't a stock size so i think that's the supply part
02:40:53 so i think that's the supply part and then the um to use his term look after us on pricing and it's an unfortunate phrase um we have a
02:41:06 um we have a separate email from srg for the kingsman as i said and i think what they're trying to demonstrate is that knowing that their product is
02:41:17 is that knowing that their product is going to be used on the job that they are not taking advantage of that fact and
02:41:27 financially taking advantage by having a higher price that's my interpretation
02:41:35 let's see if i can explore that a little bit more closely can we look at cel 6034 please this is an email from jill walker same
02:41:48 this is an email from jill walker same day
02:41:49 day 17th of march 2015 to jonathan room
02:41:55 and below that an email that says as promised
02:41:59 promised also the same day and if if you scroll
02:42:06 down you can see what she's doing is forwarding to jonathan room the quotation that she had sent to you
02:42:17 the quotation that she had sent to you offering the discount
02:42:21 do you know why she did that or might have done that
02:42:29 i don't know it looks on the face of this document that jill walker at sig was offering the discount and then telling celetex that she'd done that would that would that um
02:42:42 would that would that um correspond with your recollection about the way things were done
02:42:48 as i said i have no knowledge of their discussions that didn't involve us what did it involve me sorry
02:43:00 was the fact that you could get discounts at this order of magnitude something that influenced the choice of rs 5000 as the insulation product for grenfell tower no can i ask you to look at cel six five
02:43:11 can i ask you to look at cel six five zeroes four six seven please
02:43:17 this is a celetex record of a meeting i'm afraid it's in very small print and we will have to do our best and i'd like you to look at two parts of this document
02:43:26 document first of all the entry on the very far left hand side at the top which gives the date it's the eighth of april uh 2015.
02:43:40 it's the eighth of april uh 2015. uh and i'm i i'm not sure we can do better than this but um it looks as if there was a a meeting between
02:43:47 between you and uh someone at celetex and the owner of this entry appears to be somebody called kirsty crossley does that name ring a bell with you no
02:43:59 does that name ring a bell with you no right uh
02:44:04 right uh and then the meet the note in the middle oh that's much better thank you the nate in the middle under comments met ben in the office to discuss progress on
02:44:17 ben in the office to discuss progress on grenfell tower riders of the mc and although they have started to take rs they have not actually started installing discussed the potential to use as a case study and ben is happy
02:44:30 use as a case study and ben is happy thinks that ryden's will get on board also arranged to visit site the next time in area
02:44:39 now kirsty crossley created this entry and is said to be the account number
02:44:45 number but you've never heard of her assuming that in fact this relates to jonathan room as the only person according to your recollection you ever met
02:44:56 recollection you ever met from celetex do you remember meeting mr room
02:44:59 room at this time 8th of april 2015 to discuss the grenfell tower project as the comments identify
02:45:14 as the comments identify i mean i don't remember that meeting or that being discussed particularly but if we're assuming this jonathan if that's what he says then
02:45:26 do you remember one or other of you saying
02:45:30 saying or discussing the potential to use as a case study and ben is happy did mr roon say to you that they wanted to use
02:45:37 to use grenfell tower as a case study for rs-5000
02:45:42 rs-5000 i'm not i don't recall that specific discussion at that time
02:45:55 do you remember anything about this discussion
02:46:00 this particular discussion no it's not i don't recall this in general terms do you have any recollection of any discussions with celetex the gist of which was that
02:46:12 celetex the gist of which was that grenfell tower would be a case study for rs 5000
02:46:17 rs 5000 yes you do remember yes and and would april 2015 be around about the time that you remember you had those discussions no and what does case study mean in that
02:46:29 no and what does case study mean in that context
02:46:31 context um what do i mean by what case study no um what did you understand that grenfell tower being a case study
02:46:42 that grenfell tower being a case study for rs 5000 would involve and what did it mean
02:46:50 i suppose being an insulation supplier they might be interested in what um u-value was achieved with their product
02:46:58 product on a building did you get the impression that grenfell tower was as it were a guinea pig for rs 5000.
02:47:08 that's not a thought that crossed my mind so
02:47:11 mind so you say kate you agree that there was a discussion about it being used as a case study
02:47:16 study there's there's correspondence further later in the year whilst it's not directly from celetex about a case study yes okay do you recall whether grenfell tower was the first
02:47:28 tower was the first high-rise project to your knowledge on which rs 5000 had been used um whether or not i knew it was the first or not i was aware it was
02:47:39 or not i was aware it was one of the one of the sorry one of the um right so yeah rephrase that it hadn't been used widely before right
02:47:50 before right do you know whether it had been used at all before i'm unsure do you know why mr roon was interested in having celetex um case studied at grand film
02:48:01 um case studied at grand film i i don't know why he was interested in that in particular no all right can we look at a another document
02:48:09 document um it's cel6039
02:48:14 please
02:48:26 this is an appointment note dated the 17th of april 2015 for mr room showing a diarized meeting with you on the 7th of may 2015 to as he says review installation of rs
02:48:39 to as he says review installation of rs on grenfell tower potential case study do you remember that meeting
02:48:47 um as i said before specifically no um so jonathan was about the office quite a lot yeah would the meeting have been on site or at harley's offices or at celetex do you remember um
02:49:03 i don't know actually i i note the location here says granville tower but i don't remember meeting johnson on site ever
02:49:11 ever and would it be normal for a manufacturer such as seller text to visit a site installation
02:49:24 um
02:49:28 all i can say for that is king's king spam rep didn't visit me on site at their house and we used the kingspan product on the previous job
02:49:37 didn't did not so so far as your experience was concerned this this was a first in the sense that it was in my experience of one yes in your experience of one
02:49:51 one yes in your experience of one yes understand and do you remember what was discussed at that meeting
02:49:59 no i don't remember this meeting as i said i don't remember meeting jonathan do you remember what stage of the installation the project had reached at that point so mid april 15
02:50:14 um
02:50:19 there would certainly be insulation on the wall um right wasn't had any rain screen gone up yet
02:50:28 when you say rain screen i mean i mean channels acn panels yes i think it's unlikely i don't think we've had them on site at that time did mr room see anything at site
02:50:39 did mr room see anything at site which when he visited that would have told him that acm cladding was being used
02:50:44 used on the grenfell tower project along with celetex rs5000 um if it was that date it's unlikely
02:50:56 it looks as if the projected date for the meeting was the 7th of may 2015. so as of the 7th of may 2015 as opposed to the 17th of april
02:51:07 to the 17th of april you think it's unlikely that there would have been any any acm on site that's my memory yes as it is was there any discussion at all between you about how rs 5000 would interact with acm
02:51:19 how rs 5000 would interact with acm not i recall right mr chairman we're going to turn to a different topic in a moment i've just got one more document to show the witness it might be more convenient to do that now before we switch to it
02:51:31 to do that now before we switch to it yes very well thank you cel 50467 please
02:51:40 now this is a again another celetex sales force entry document and again it's i'm afraid very small and if we could have it blown up again
02:51:51 this is the second entry down this time
02:51:58 and it's a 20th of may 2015 date point and i'm going to wait until it becomes clearer if we can just bring that into focus
02:52:12 thank you uh
02:52:19 and it says um kirsty crossley again site visit and again it's grenfell and it says products starting to be
02:52:30 and it says products starting to be installed
02:52:34 mark wanted to know if we could offer any letter detailing that harley are an approved installer of celetex products reason being is that he has been asked by the emcee rydens who in turn have been asked by kensington and chelsea council as they
02:52:46 kensington and chelsea council as they wish to apply for drawing down money from an eco fund um my question is were you involved in any discussions as to whether the refurbishment could obtain eco or grant funding of any kind
02:53:00 no discussions about eco funding or grants no
02:53:03 grants no did you yourself consider alter your knowledge anybody else would hardly consider at this stage whether another insulation product should be or could be used which would attract
02:53:13 attract grant funding not that i was aware of at the time though were you aware at the time of any discussions involving the potential use of
02:53:21 of rockwool i wasn't aware of that at the time
02:53:24 time right mr chairman that may be a convenient moment it's a good point yes very well thank you well we're gonna have a break now mr bailey said we can all get some lunch we'll resume at five past two please
02:53:35 we'll resume at five past two please okay and
02:53:36 okay and uh no talking to anyone also about your evidence or anything to do with it when they're out of the room please okay all right thank you very much
02:53:57 thank you five plus two please
02:54:24 you