Harley Evidence - Monday 21st September 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:12 yes would you ask mr bailey to come back in please

00:00:28 right mr bailey are you ready to carry on i am good thank you very much yes mr millet mr chairman mr bailey before we turn to the topic i was going to come to with you can i just go back to the question of the origins of the

00:00:41 to the question of the origins of the discount

00:00:42 discount on the celetex rs 5000 can you please be shown

00:00:49 cel3011457

00:00:54 now this is an email from you sorry from mr room to you on monday the 16th of march 2015.

00:01:07 on monday the 16th of march 2015. hi ben as this would be a special order do you need exactly 1900 square meters or would you need to be more do you need more to be safe mindful that we would have to produce in one complete

00:01:18 we would have to produce in one complete run

00:01:19 run please let me know and i will speak to our factory about lead times please can you also let me know who you would be buying this through and i will arrange a list price for the distributors involved so you can get the best

00:01:30 best competitive price now that's the day before we see the the sig quote giving you the 47.5 discount it looks from this as if mr room is telling you

00:01:41 room is telling you that he's arranging for you to have the best discount is that right

00:01:48 i i don't agree what did you understand mr room to mean that he would arrange a list price for the distributors involved so you can get the best competitive

00:01:59 so you can get the best competitive price what did you understand by by that i think my understanding is what i said earlier on that they were demonstrating that they were um not

00:02:12 they were um not taking advantage of knowing they had the job

00:02:16 job sorry then knowing that the order and by giving a fair price i mean on the face of the documents it looks as if mr roon was telling you uh that he would sort out a discount through the distributors so that you

00:02:27 through the distributors so that you would end up with the best price and my question is isn't that the source of the of the discount of 47.5 on this product he says competitive price

00:02:38 price and no that's my understanding of it and in the end just looking at that again um

00:02:45 again um isn't it right or is it right that price had a part to play in the selection of rs 5000 for this product for this project

00:02:53 project as opposed to for example k-15 i don't believe that was the case all right can we then turn then to kingspan k15 and i want to ask you some questions

00:03:04 k15 and i want to ask you some questions about that product could you look please at har40 is 9643

00:03:15 now this is an email from you to mark stapley

00:03:19 stapley on at harley on the 9th of march 2015 with the subject alternative kingspan insulation what were you proposing this as an alternative to remember i don't recall do you know why or do you

00:03:32 i don't recall do you know why or do you remember why you were sending this alternative insulation product to mr stapley i don't recall was this insulation being considered

00:03:43 considered for grenfell at the time

00:03:52 i don't think so i'm trying to remember what what that kingspan product is if it's what i think it is it wouldn't have been considered

00:04:03 it is it wouldn't have been considered right well we could see that you attached a technical brochure called optimal rainscreen system first issue july 13. why did you attach that and send it to

00:04:14 why did you attach that and send it to mark stapley i don't know can we look at it it's at har

00:04:19 har four zeros nine six four four and it's dated as you can see from the

00:04:31 and it's dated as you can see from the top right hand corner july 2013 had you read this uh brochure before you sent it to mark stapley

00:04:41 i believe so it looks familiar can we look at page seven please under the heading five performance it says kingsman optima range screen can be

00:04:53 says kingsman optima range screen can be used in multi-story buildings up to 18 meters in height for buildings over 18 meters in height kingspan

00:04:59 kingspan cool thumb k15 rain screen board can be used

00:05:04 used now it would appear that the optima product wasn't suitable for grenfell tower

00:05:11 tower um would you agree with that i don't think it was ever considered right

00:05:18 yeah when you did look at this document did you understand from what i've just shown you there that that kingspan were saying that k15

00:05:30 kingspan were saying that k15 as opposed to the optima product was able to be used in buildings over 18 meters

00:05:37 meters um well that was an understanding i already had um and as you confirmed i think earlier in your evidence you had that understanding from your involvement on the merit house project is that right yes

00:05:48 yes was it your understanding from that that k-15 could be used in buildings over 18 meters in any circumstances in other words with any rain screen yes

00:06:04 now we can see that five days before your email here under which you send mark stapley this brochure and that's the 9th of march mark stapley

00:06:15 and that's the 9th of march mark stapley had sought quotes for k15 do you remember that i'll show you a document but do you remember that um i don't remember at the time but okay let's look at har301030

00:06:30 now this is mark stapley to jill walker at

00:06:33 at sig hi jill thank you for your quotation for the celetex rs 5000 however please could you provide us with a comparison quote using 160 millimeter 280 millimeter kingspan

00:06:44 280 millimeter kingspan k15 instead many thanks mark stapley now we know from the quote that ms walker of sig did provide um this quotation in relation to

00:06:56 um this quotation in relation to grenfell tower we don't need to go to it but it for our purposes and for the transcript it's har409718 we don't need to have that up my question is do you know from your

00:07:08 up my question is do you know from your own recollection why mark stapley was requesting alternative quotes for the insulation on grenfell at this point early march 2015.

00:07:19 at this point early march 2015. i don't know why mark was seeking a separate quotation did he discuss that with you

00:07:28 he may have done later but at the time i don't remember right do you know why mark stapley wanted a comparison price as he says in the email we've got up here

00:07:39 um

00:07:43 you'd have to ask mark i think well i'm asking

00:07:46 asking you because mark stapley was the operations director you were the project manager

00:07:50 manager by this time and as the project manager wouldn't you be involved in in discussions about pricing comparative pricing of products

00:08:02 possibly but i was able to ask that question myself

00:08:09 yes and that that's why i'm asking you about your involvement in this discussion were you involved do you remember having a discussion with mark stapley about the subject of seeking an alternative or

00:08:22 the subject of seeking an alternative or comparison quote to compare it with the quotation for celetex rs5000 no i don't remember you know actively seeking that comparison

00:08:35 seeking that comparison were you involved in the discussions about it

00:08:38 about it can you explain why you weren't involved if you didn't think you were um

00:08:51 i don't remember the conversation with mark

00:08:55 mark that generated that quote however i think he did send that quote to me at a later date

00:09:03 do you recall in general terms at least even if not the specific conversations with mark stapley that on this project harley were looking for

00:09:14 for competitive pricing for the insulation for the building i think in general terms it's

00:09:27 it would be

00:09:30 um normal to seek like for like quotes right now we know that ms walker did provide an alternative quote

00:09:43 for k15 on the 4th of march let's just look at that that's h a r

00:09:59 we can see that she actually does provide a quote second email down can you see that

00:10:09 see that um and it's for the attention of mark it's an email from jill walker at sig

00:10:15 at sig addressed to mark further to your recent inquiry please find attach the requested quotation and the quotation itself is that

00:10:30 har409722

00:10:34 let's just look at that and we can see there that it's a quotation sent to mark on the 4th of march 2015 re

00:10:46 on the 4th of march 2015 re 10 k15 grenfell tower and they quoted for the cool theme k15 in the dimensions we see there and the price there is 19 pounds 42p

00:10:59 and the price there is 19 pounds 42p and you can see that the discount is 26 do you see that yes so the discount that you were getting or being offered by sig on the coolform k15 was just a little over

00:11:13 was just a little over half as good as the discount that you were being given on the uh celetex rs 5000. do you remember that

00:11:24 at the time um i remember seeing the um quotes at the time when mark had sent them to me but it's yes that specific discounts not

00:11:37 it's yes that specific discounts not jumped out to me right do you remember asking did you did it occur to you why it was that mark stapley was looking

00:11:46 looking for a product for use on grenfell tower that was not stipulated in the nbs specification

00:11:55 i don't know i mean you you do realize or did realize at the time did you that k-15 was not mentioned in the nbs specification um yes that would have been around the time

00:12:06 yes that would have been around the time that i'd read the nbs i think yes it did not occur to you to ask him well why are you looking for quotes on an alternative product that isn't specified even as an alternative product in the nbs spec

00:12:21 i don't remember if i questioned him it could be an assumption that he's as i said before looking for a price comparison did mark stapley to your knowledge to your knowledge think that k15 was an equivalent product

00:12:35 think that k15 was an equivalent product to celetex um i think that was a common um thought right did you know

00:12:46 um thought right did you know what marx what mark stapley had done by a way of investigation of k-15s fire performance at that time i don't know

00:12:55 know right was it mark stapley who suggested k-15's use on grenfell tower or its suitability for use on grenfell tower

00:13:04 possibly would it be fair to say looking at the emails we've been through both those from celetex and from k and from uh sig in relation to the k-15 that

00:13:15 from uh sig in relation to the k-15 that k-15

00:13:16 k-15 was being considered as an alternative insulation for grenfell tower as well as early as march 2015

00:13:24 it may well have been but

00:13:28 and would you agree that it appears that it was being considered from a price or budget perspective and not in relation to lead times

00:13:44 having not been involved with at that particular time i don't know was harley shopping around for the best price on insulation regardless of whether or not it was stipulated in the nbs spec

00:13:55 nbs spec i don't think so how else can you explain why it was that mark stapley was looking for a quotation for k-15 which was not in the nbs spec other than on price grounds

00:14:08 i think as i said before it was it's to see where um the comparative prices are the different products were you under the impression that these products celetex rs 5000 and

00:14:21 that these products celetex rs 5000 and kingspan

00:14:22 kingspan k15 cool therm k-15 were simply interchangeable

00:14:28 my perception at the time was that they were equivalent products equivalent in what way um

00:14:40 equivalent in what way um their use above 18 meters and their insulation value

00:14:51 and how do you form that impression do you think

00:14:55 you think um my previous experience of k-15 um and the um what i've been told by john's in the room

00:15:06 room and just my probably basic understanding use of those insulations over 18 meters

00:15:16 can we look at your witness statement at page 8 please paragraph 26

00:15:23 this is where you deal with the question of k15

00:15:28 and you say it paragraph 26 there

00:15:34 halfway or just a little below halfway down that paragraph five lines up from the bottom of page eight you say there was a small amount of kingspan k15 supplied by sig plc

00:15:45 of kingspan k15 supplied by sig plc which was used on grenfell tower the reason for this was that we were informed by sig plc that they had mistakenly sold an order of celetex rs 5000 intended for grenfell tower elsewhere

00:15:56 tower elsewhere sig plc offered the kingspan insulation as a substitute product i was told by sig plc that it was an equivalent product to the celetex and i had no reason to doubt this

00:16:08 reason to doubt this as a result an order of kingspan was used to avoid causing what appeared to be an unnecessary delay to the work program

00:16:15 program now you say there that you were told by sig plc

00:16:19 sig plc that the kingspan product was an equivalent product do you remember who at sig said that

00:16:28 i think my recollection is that initial conversation was a phone call and my point of contact at sig was jill walker right

00:16:40 sig was jill walker right so is your answer to my question that was

00:16:43 was jill walker at sig who told you that k-15 was equivalent to rs 5000 in yes in this scenario okay can we look at uh a document

00:16:58 uh it's sig five i'm sorry sorry six zeros one three sig six zero is one three please and this is an email chain

00:17:09 three please and this is an email chain between you and jill walker at sig on the 26th of may 2015. so this is a bit

00:17:16 is a bit a bit later in the year just in general terms is it fair to say that sig were the suppliers of the insulation product for grenfell um at this point in time they were yes

00:17:29 um at this point in time they were yes they sat between celotex or king's ban and harley in the supply chain is that right um said that again they would sit between

00:17:40 said that again they would sit between celetex

00:17:41 celetex or kingspan and harley in the supply chain

00:17:46 chain uh yeah yes i think i know what you're saying yeah now let's look at the bottom email on page two if we can

00:17:52 we can see that uh at the very bottom there on

00:17:56 there on the 26th of major walker emails you and it says hi ben the delivery we arrange for the third will now go on to the 10th celetex

00:18:03 celetex have pushed out the lead time on this product double exclamation mark and we can see your reply above that you say are you joking is k15 held in stock at the same thickness is the delivery for this week

00:18:14 thickness is the delivery for this week still on

00:18:16 still on what was the reason that you inquired about k-15

00:18:22 my recollection of this

00:18:27 delay i think i was notified originally with a phone call um and it you know the sort of purpose of the phone call was to give me a heads up a quick heads up that there

00:18:39 a heads up a quick heads up that there may be a problem with our supply of pre-ordered cell attacks and i think in that phone call we discussed the um as a remedy for sig

00:18:53 not being able to deliver on time is would we take k15 as an alternative and i think my reply at the time was we'll find out what the delay is going to be first we'll park that issue

00:19:04 to be first we'll park that issue and until we can you can tell me um give me a better idea of what the actual delay is going to be which i think is where jill kicks off with this email to me well this phone call that

00:19:17 email to me well this phone call that you're

00:19:17 you're talking about um did that happen before jill walker sent the email to you at 1353 on the 26th of may 2015. yeah it would have done

00:19:29 may 2015. yeah it would have done yes and then we could see your response about k-15 yes and my my question was why did you think um why did you ask her about k15 as an

00:19:40 why did you ask her about k15 as an alternative i think we discussed it as an alternative on the phone i see so before the email of the 26th how soon before the 26th did you have that phone call do you think

00:19:52 call do you think um it would possibly be in that day

00:20:02 right if you'd had a phone call with jill

00:20:07 jill walker that day about k15 why did you need to ask her whether it's still held in stock at the same thickness as you do in your responsive email

00:20:18 um if i think can you just scroll down to the yes of course the um you have jill walder i think we're on the bottom of page two i don't think there's any earlier email

00:20:29 there's any earlier email yeah so yeah the bottom email is the one to you at 1353 when she tells you that the

00:20:34 the delivery we arrange for the third will now go out on the 10th yes

00:20:39 yes sorry i forgot yours so my question is really if you'd had a discussion with her about k-15 uh as an alternative prior to her sending you this email why did you respond to her by

00:20:50 this email why did you respond to her by asking her whether k-15 was still held in stock

00:20:53 in stock or held in stock at the same thickness it was a lead time issue well i have to say mr bailey looking at your

00:21:02 your message which begins with the words are you joking that strikes me as an immediate reaction not one which follows a telephone call in which you've already been told that do you think he

00:21:13 already been told that do you think he might be wrong about that so

00:21:18 it was so we'd arranged the delivery um previously on a schedule and she's notifying me

00:21:29 notifying me that

00:21:35 it's delayed essentially so this is the notification that so i'm okay

00:21:46 that so i'm okay we'd arranged that delivery for cellotex on the third and that was going to be delayed already and that's now pushed back to the 10th so that's the context of the phone

00:21:57 so that's the context of the phone call that the delivery is going to be on the third

00:22:01 the third all things being well with the celotex but if it was going to be a problem it was the k15 we discussed could be used as a

00:22:10 um so there's a solution which is why i'm saying

00:22:15 saying you know that's longer than we were expecting as a delay that's that's my are you joking email

00:22:23 are you confident that you discussed k-15 as an alternative with jill walker before she sent her email

00:22:33 to you to which you're responding that's my recollection right you see we've seen from the emails in march that you'd already had well harley had already had discussions

00:22:44 well harley had already had discussions about the availability of of k-15 as an as an equivalent to celetex

00:22:50 celetex uh and i just want to ask you whether in fact it's possible that actually what happened was that you discussed lead times with her but not the suitability of k15 and then when she tells you that

00:23:01 of k15 and then when she tells you that the delivery for rs 5000 is going to be delayed you then ask her about k15 because you think it's an equivalent product and wanted to know whether it could be substituted is that not how it happened

00:23:14 i i had a previous recollect a previous

00:23:19 thought in my head anyway that k15 and rs 5000 were equivalent products and i think the conversations i had with sig yeah

00:23:31 conversations i had with sig yeah didn't we didn't conflict with that no we don't see anything in jill walker's email to you as she suggests the use of k15 as an alternative

00:23:43 alternative and is it fair that had she discussed that with you as an alternative on the previous phone call prior to this email she would have suggested it in the email itself

00:23:51 itself rather than leaving it to you to ask

00:23:57 that's possible yes now we asked simon lawrence of ryden about k-15 and why it was substituted

00:24:08 about k-15 and why it was substituted and he said and i'll just put the transcript reference into this transcript day 24 page 150 lines 13 to 19. he said i think it's

00:24:19 lines 13 to 19. he said i think it's relating to their credit limit and harley's ceasing to trade one company and starting with another but it was not something i knew at the time was mr lawrence correct about that that the substitute for

00:24:30 the substitute for of k-15 for celotex something to do with harley's solvency at the time um no i think the only time it was substituted was when there was a problem with supply

00:24:44 right

00:24:54 and can we go to the very top of the email chain please we've still got here which

00:24:59 which should be page one

00:25:02 and we can see that at the very top you send miss

00:25:05 send miss walker uh uh the same day um a purchase order uh in response to her email almost

00:25:17 uh in response to her email almost immediately back to you telling you that delivery for this week for k15 was okay you see what she says there and then she and you go back to say as discussed please see purchase order attached with the k-15 order

00:25:29 the k-15 order this quantity should be taken off the total po on the celtex or celotex order in uh issued on the 25th of march 2015. you see that yes um was this may

00:25:42 you see that yes um was this may 2015 order the first time that you had ordered kingsman k-15 for use at grenfell

00:25:52 um i believe so yes now you can see that miss walker's initial email to you as we saw at the bottom of this email chain was timed at 1353

00:26:03 chain was timed at 1353 the one that starts the email chain off and your order as we can see from the top of the email chain is placed at 1402 nine minutes later do you

00:26:14 1402 nine minutes later do you think that that was enough time fully to investigate the fire safety of k15 and whether it was a suitable product for use on the building that time something correct

00:26:27 the time stamp is incorrect on the email which time stamp are you talking 14

00:26:36 sorry which time stamp at the top of the email

00:26:39 email 1402. that's cause i've checked this you've checked it have you what have you found the purchase order was um generated about an hour after the initial email

00:26:50 initial email uh this is the first i think i've heard of it but what what what is the correct time for that email i believe it was 1457. can you explain how it came about then that the email says

00:27:02 it came about then that the email says 1402.

00:27:04 1402. i would agree with you that it it says 14a uh her response to you is 1407. and yours is 1402.

00:27:11 1402. yeah stamps on the previous emails don't i have head up right even allowing for the hour that elapsed well let me ask you did you

00:27:22 elapsed well let me ask you did you undertake any investigation as to the fire safety of kingspan k15 in that hour um my recollection is that um i did inquire with the design office

00:27:34 um i did inquire with the design office where dan and mark stapley were to double check the u-values or the the thermal performance of the

00:27:45 or the the thermal performance of the k-15 versus the rs-5000 and i also noticed on the bba certificate that we had at the time that it also stated it was class a performance are you saying that

00:27:57 performance are you saying that in that hour between board between being told by jill walker that delivery for this week was okay for kingspan k15 and the timing of the purchase order going out you say an hour

00:28:09 purchase order going out you say an hour later you

00:28:10 later you checked the bba certificate for kingspan k15

00:28:14 k15 i inquired in the office yes you inquired in the office let's just take this in the office at the time yes you inquired in the office you say you

00:28:25 you inquired in the office you say you inquired in the office where dan and mark stapley were did you ask dan ankurtal jones about whether k-15 was suitable for use

00:28:36 whether k-15 was suitable for use at grenfell tower

00:28:42 i don't know if it was specifically dan or mark

00:28:45 or mark right what question did you ask them can we substitute this

00:28:53 what did they say i think it was it was a

00:28:57 a quick check of the comparison story of the two

00:29:02 the two documents which two documents the two um there are

00:29:05 there are bba documents or the [Music]

00:29:09 [Music] brochures of them confirm that this i think was mainly the um insulation value

00:29:17 value but also confirmed that they basically

00:29:22 did did they tell you they one or other of them had checked the bba certificate for kingspan k15

00:29:31 and i think i was there with them you were there with them did you see them check it

00:29:37 check it or check it yourself i think we i think we did it together right

00:29:58 can we

00:30:09 can we look please at that certificate it's bba 5036.

00:30:17 5036. now i just need to be very clear about what we're looking at this is the bba certificate for kingspan k15

00:30:29 for kingspan k15 now this is dated the 17th of december 2013 is this the certificate that you

00:30:38 that you and daniel angel jones and mark stapley looked at in that hour on the 26th of may

00:30:46 may 2015 before ordering it from sig i believe we had an earlier issue certificate than that

00:30:57 what was the data that earlier issued and

00:31:00 and i think it was i think it was the first issue the one i've seen that we had on file at the time was in 2008

00:31:07 right did you know at the time there had been a second issue um i did not okay well let's see

00:31:18 um i did not okay well let's see with on this document because this is the up-to-date one or the current one as at the date of your involvement with this project

00:31:25 why would you be looking at an out-of-date certificate in order to check whether it was compliant or even to check the u-values and didn't have an up-to-date certificate to look at

00:31:35 at um

00:31:40 i wasn't aware of being updated you may not have been but can you explain why why neither daniel anchored james nor mark stapley

00:31:52 daniel anchored james nor mark stapley we're aware that it has been updated i don't know all right but let's look at page one

00:31:58 page one and it says then and tell me if there's anything that's different in this certificate from the version you looked at on the

00:32:04 at on the on the day but i'm going to proceed uh mr bailey

00:32:07 mr bailey on the basis that there's no difference but i may be wrong about that if you can look at page one it uh describes the product as cooltheme k15 range screen insulation board

00:32:18 range screen insulation board and it says that it relates to uh that product a rigid phenolic board with foiled composite facings for use

00:32:26 use as external thermal insulation on new and existing steel frame or masonry walls and then a little bit lower down it tells you the thermal performance so it gives you the thermal conductivity

00:32:38 so it gives you the thermal conductivity and then underneath that the condensation risk and then this behavior in relation to fire the product will not contribute to the development stages of a fire or present a smoke

00:32:48 a smoke or toxic hazard c-section eight did you look at that on the afternoon of the 26th of may it's a familiar statement to me

00:32:59 and if we look at section 8 it's page 5 please

00:33:08 it says under the heading behavior in relation to fire the product 8.1 the product is classified as class naught or low risk as defined in the documents supporting the national building regulations

00:33:19 building regulations just pausing there what did you understand this to mean in the context of an insulation product um so my understanding the time was

00:33:30 um so my understanding the time was classo was um

00:33:36 appropriate for use over 18 meters

00:33:42 what does it mean though what did class o or class naught mean or signify i think well i had i think i had a misconception of what glass i meant at the time well what

00:33:53 what glass i meant at the time well what did you think it meant at the time i think

00:33:55 think what it what i thought it meant at the time is what i think the phrase limited combustibility describes that's what i had in my head at the time

00:34:08 right

00:34:13 did you know or do you recall that under approved document b insulation had to be of limited combustibility to be used on

00:34:24 of limited combustibility to be used on buildings

00:34:24 buildings over 18 meters in height unless it had been through a bsa414 test um i wasn't familiar with the phrase limited combustibility as it appears in

00:34:35 limited combustibility as it appears in um

00:34:35 um the building regulations at that time so i think that's why i had a misconception right does that make sense well you it may do you said you thought class

00:34:47 you it may do you said you thought class naught at the time meant limited combustibility

00:34:53 what the words limited combustibility described as i said i wasn't aware of the phrase limited investability at the time i think my understanding of class oh could be described as what the words of

00:35:05 could be described as what the words of limited combustibility mean and what does that mean hard to ignite

00:35:11 ignite and hot and hard to sustain a flame right

00:35:20 in fact there's nothing in this certificate we can look at the rest of it

00:35:24 it but do you remember there's nothing actually in the certificate that says that the product was of limited combustibility yes i can see that now yeah now looking at page

00:35:33 at page six please let's look at 8.2 what it actually says is when tested to bs 8414

00:35:42 bs 8414 of 2002 the following specific cladding construction met the criteria as stated in bre report 13 br 135

00:35:51 13 br 135 and then we can see what the construction elements are you've got insulation board you've got six millimeter cement particle boards

00:36:02 particle boards attached to an aluminium railing system on the substrate you've then got 40 millimeter deep ventilated cavity provided between the boards and the cement particle board fire stopping as described and then the

00:36:14 fire stopping as described and then the temperature measured during the stated time test

00:36:16 time test you see that and then the certificate goes on to say

00:36:25 underneath it slightly smaller letters

00:36:30 and it's a footnote one and you can see the footnote one goes back to the words when tested at the top of the page do you see that footnote one says the test results relates only to this specific

00:36:41 relates only to this specific construction and a separate test would be required to establish the performance of any other combination of materials

00:36:50 and then a paragraph 8.3 it continues the product incorporated in the construction defined in section eight two

00:36:58 two can eight eight two can be used in buildings with a floor more than eighteen meters above ground level fire breaks should be used at every floor level after the first floor

00:37:09 every floor level after the first floor would you agree with me that the bba certificate made it clear that the k-15 product could be used only

00:37:17 used only in the construction defined in section 82 in other words in the specific system with the elements set out there and no other system

00:37:31 in when in this updated certificate um yeah it gives it gives a scenario where it has been tested

00:37:48 um yeah it mentions separate tests yes was that in the pro was that in the certificate that you read on the afternoon of the 26th of may i don't recall you don't recall

00:38:02 if you did look at this certificate and and if the certificate you looked at contained what i've just shown you there under 8.2

00:38:08 under 8.2 and the note at 8.3

00:38:12 why was it not clear to you that k-15 could not be used at grenfell tower because the rain screen construction did not

00:38:20 not contain elements that were precisely the same as those with in the system which had been tested under bsa414

00:38:30 um i suppose i'd have to my comfort with k15 came

00:38:35 k15 came came from my previous job and that again was acm and a block work war do you accept that

00:38:46 and a block work war do you accept that had you looked at this certificate at the time

00:38:48 the time which was the uh and this being the current certificate at the time you would have realized the k15 was a highly inappropriate insulation to be used on grenfell tower because the rain screen being proposed

00:39:00 because the rain screen being proposed was not

00:39:00 was not cement particle boards

00:39:05 um

00:39:12 as i said at the time it was a product i felt comfortable with and i think everyone else were comfortable with um based on prefix experience

00:39:24 um based on prefix experience knowledge of other buildings where that products used because like

00:39:32 even now we're looking at um where i know it's been using other buildings it doesn't comply to that you explain why you as a project manager

00:39:44 you explain why you as a project manager did not

00:39:45 did not pause and take a step back and ask yours to to look at the up-to-date bba certificate and make absolutely sure that you were satisfied that k-15

00:39:57 satisfied that k-15 could be used on grenfell tower

00:40:02 um well as i said everyone regards the updated certificate i wasn't aware there'd been an updated certificate and in respect of reading the whole bba certificate um

00:40:17 not in a technical role um my role as project managers procurement planning programme

00:40:29 procurement planning programme and ordering materials

00:40:37 can you explain why harley had an outdated certificate as opposed to the up-to-date certificate in its possession

00:40:46 i can't give a reason for that

00:40:50 can we look at the labc certificate for this product

00:40:58 this is a k i n 3 0 1 6 7 3 3 please

00:41:05 and this is dated the 30th of march 2015 so this is after only a week or two after

00:41:13 after the first investigation by mark stapley of sig

00:41:18 of sig about using k15 as an alternative to rs 5000 at grenfell tower but it predates your ordering of k15 by about two months

00:41:32 uh just under two months um did you read this certificate at the time no

00:41:40 have you ever seen this document before i don't believe so [Applause] right

00:41:55 would you agree with me that if you were really interested in making sure you fully understood k-15 is a new product you would have checked this document and looked at it

00:42:06 i wasn't aware of the abc at the time you weren't aware of the labc what was the body no i see

00:42:27 now when you made the order on the afternoon of the 26th of may 2015 after as you say having had

00:42:38 may 2015 after as you say having had this discussion at harley with bet er with daniel agrital jones and mark stapley about its suitability did you have consciously in mind the

00:42:49 did you have consciously in mind the technical brochure for the optima product

00:42:51 product that we saw earlier no you didn't because that product had said in terms that for buildings over 18 meters kingspan k15 can can be used but i just want to make

00:43:02 can can be used but i just want to make sure that that was well when make sure how much if at all that was part of your thinking at the time

00:43:07 time um well i obtained wouldn't have been in my um

00:43:10 my um mine for this project because that insulation panel can't be cut it's i think i found it an interesting product at the time because it can offer good thermal values but it does it by

00:43:22 good thermal values but it does it by being a vacuum um i believe that this is my recollection anyway it does it might be a vacuum

00:43:29 a vacuum packed panel so it can't be cut it'll break the vacuum so optimism not by myself no optima isn't i'm not suggesting that it was what i'm putting to you is that in the technical

00:43:40 putting to you is that in the technical brochure we looked at before it said that for buildings over 18 meters kingspan k15 can be used do you remember i showed you that you did my question is really did that play

00:43:51 did my question is really did that play any part in your thinking on the 26th of may 2015

00:43:54 may 2015 in the afternoon of that day when you ordered the product from sick my camera of that specific data sheet would have done so right

00:44:06 did you ever investigate whether the system tested for k-15 which would result in it getting a

00:44:17 which would result in it getting a a classification under 8414 was the same system as grenfell tower no did you ever investigate whether the product had test evidence which met the definition of limiting combustibility

00:44:29 definition of limiting combustibility as i said before limited possibility wasn't a

00:44:33 wasn't a phrase i was familiar with but no

00:44:42 did you investigate whether there was a desktop study available in relation to k-15 do you know what i mean by a desktop study i didn't at the time say no

00:44:55 did you investigate whether rs 5000 was available in a shorter period or lead time from any other supplier

00:45:06 um at that point in time i don't think so

00:45:10 so why is that um i don't remember specifically but i could probably offer some insight in

00:45:22 could probably offer some insight in that i think sig were a international player that we had a credit account with and a relationship with

00:45:32 with you know it makes if you have a credit account with someone it's quite difficult to order it without going through a lengthy process of setting those kind of things up do i take it from that answer that

00:45:45 do i take it from that answer that if you had not stuck with sig or sega but had gone to a different supplier you would there would have had to be credit checks

00:45:55 uh yeah

00:45:58 and given harley's financial difficulties at the time would those have been difficult for harley to satisfy

00:46:10 my memory is that we had a good credit rating at the time and we wouldn't have had any problems opening up a new account it's more to do with the time it takes

00:46:21 it's more to do with the time it takes in fact we see later on in the record that

00:46:24 that you ordered k15 and uh rs 5000 from ccf didn't you correct so why didn't you approach them at the time uh

00:46:35 time uh that the cellotex rs 5000 lead time was pushed out in may 2015 and stick with sig um other than what i've just told you i don't i don't know

00:46:47 don't i don't know did you

00:46:52 discuss the substitution with studio e or x over or ryden or what it's worth building control i think i notified ryden or spoke about it with ryden right

00:47:04 or spoke about it with ryden right did you discuss the question of compliance with regulations with ryan um only insofar as that the insulation values

00:47:17 the insulation values were very similar and it was a class a product

00:47:21 product do you remember who it was at ryden that you had that discussion with i believe it was simon lawrence or simon o'connor

00:47:36 we looked at the contracts earlier on today

00:47:41 today um did was there any discussion within harley about the need to get ryden's express consent for the substitution i don't think so

00:47:55 can we look at the purchase order which is attached to the email to ms walker that we've been looking at it's sig 6014 please this order as we've seen is placed on

00:48:06 this order as we've seen is placed on the same day 26th of may you can see there from the top right hand corner 26th of may 2015 and you can see the order

00:48:20 and you can see the order and the price or at least the total amount

00:48:25 amount um

00:48:28 what was the one week delay the rs 5000 was had been subject to at this point in time

00:48:36 time late may 2015 so critical to the project program that you had to change insulation products altogether

00:48:51 at the time um

00:48:54 yeah i think it was

00:48:59 we've yeah we felt that we're under pressure on the program yes you see we you'd seen that it was a one-week delay for rs 5000 and here we have the purchase order for

00:49:11 and here we have the purchase order for delivery on the 4th of june 2015. that would make up something like between two and four days wouldn't it of time

00:49:22 um

00:49:25 so i can't work out the time of the days in my head um well delivery was the rs 5000 was going to be going out on the 10th of june yes and and here we have a new an order which will be delivered on the

00:49:36 which will be delivered on the on the 4th of june instead and if you ignore week os because if you include the weekends that's six days and if you exclude the weekend i suppose that's four days

00:49:48 was the delay so critical by this stage that you had to change insulation products as opposed simply to catering for a few days delay

00:50:04 from my sort of experience of trying to get materials to site and trying to fit to a program at a time

00:50:16 and trying to fit to a program at a time i appreciate what you're saying is less than a week when you've got limited materials for trying to keep to a program that one week delay can be quite significant

00:50:27 week delay can be quite significant because you could have um you know teams of fixes not being able to do anything because there's not enough of other materials for them to go and do something else does that make sense um coupled with

00:50:39 does that make sense um coupled with ryden

00:50:40 ryden um you know always putting pressure on subcontractors to stick to programmes

00:50:47 um you know i can remember feeling that um you know we are under a time

00:50:56 time pressure and this is critical i can understand why projects are under time pressure that's a fact of life but what was it at this point that was so

00:51:07 what was it at this point that was so critical

00:51:09 critical that it was better to change products altogether rather than just deal with a few days delay that the difference would have made

00:51:18 i don't remember you know a particular driver to this other than the the general industry that i've

00:51:29 the general industry that i've with the general industry practice that i've

00:51:33 i've already said did the time pressure that we've been looking at contribute to the lack of investigations that you made regarding k-15's suitability for use on grenfell tower

00:51:47 i don't think so as i said it was a product

00:51:50 product we all felt comfortable with do you know even roughly where on the building the k-15 went that was ordered from this purchase order i think it's in the west elevation

00:52:01 order i think it's in the west elevation the west are there any records which would show where this order went on the building i think there's some photos of the building photos right but no

00:52:13 of the building photos right but no no written records or delivery records or

00:52:16 or records from the installers um it does the delivery records we have i think we've got the delivery notes for it

00:52:24 it um but in terms of you know exactly where it's fitted no right you mentioned photographs let's just see if we can look at a couple um first ryd3055130

00:52:36 look at a couple um first ryd3055130 please

00:52:39 now we think i'll just wait for the picture to come up we think this photograph is dated that november the 5th of 2015 and if you look about halfway up

00:52:56 on the spandrel panels next to the two left-hand columns we can see kingspan branded insulation may need to be blown up a little bit but um

00:53:06 um would that be right am i right in what i'm asking you that we can see kingspan

00:53:20 i can't see at the moment i see yeah um let's look at a different picture ryd3051704

00:53:36 this is another photograph showing a different face of the building

00:53:41 looks like the east face but

00:53:46 uh you you tell me um and again can you see kingspan insulation there

00:54:00 i don't know if you can see it anymore but

00:54:03 but yes yes

00:54:08 do you remember whether k-15 or celotex ever arrived at site in an unbranded form

00:54:15 um so did you say k-15 or celotex yes either yeah celotex sort of text right so whether where there's a branding on it that's k-15 is it yes yes

00:54:28 looking at this progress of the installation at this stage can you help us with when the photo might have been taken

00:54:34 taken we think it was about september 2015 but can you help us whether that's right i you know i couldn't give you a date

00:54:41 date right if we zoom in on the left-hand side of the image about three floors above the mast climber just to be absolutely clear i think we can see very clearly some

00:54:52 can see very clearly some more kingspan branded insulation yes you see that

00:54:56 see that yes okay now there's also insulation there that's not branded that's celetex i think you're saying i believe so yes i see so and again on the right hand column if

00:55:08 so and again on the right hand column if we just move across the page we can see the right hand column there there's again quite a large quantity of kingspan branded insulation there too isn't there yes both sides of the right-hand column on both sides

00:55:20 on both sides no it would appear then if we're right about september 2015 then a significant amount of kingspan has already been installed on the building by that stage would that be about right to the best of your recollection

00:55:32 um yes now

00:55:38 yes now can i just ask you to look at mr hughes's witness statement david hughes of writing he's given evidence already to the inquiry this is ryd3094213 94213 and i'd like us to go together to

00:55:51 94213 and i'd like us to go together to page 10 and look at paragraph 55.

00:55:58 he says there in december 2015 or january 2016 i discussed with ben bailey and agreed the use of kingspan as harley's had difficulty obtaining celotex from their supplier

00:56:09 celotex from their supplier as far as i was concerned kingspan and selatex are similar products with similar insulation properties as far as ben and i were concerned it was a likeful like swap of insulating material

00:56:21 swap of insulating material and he goes on i told steve blake and the clerk of works john white of this use of kingspan insulation material do you recall discussing the use of kingsman k-15 with david hughes

00:56:32 use of kingsman k-15 with david hughes in december 2015 or january 2016.

00:56:37 um

00:56:42 i don't have a clear recollection of it but i'm i'm not gonna argue with dave if that's what he says right now mr hughes when he gave evidence to the inquiry in july told us that you gave him a data sheet

00:56:55 told us that you gave him a data sheet for kingspan cool for cool thumb k-15 is that right i don't remember i don't remember do you remember mr hughes asking for a data sheet

00:57:05 sheet i don't remember right did you and he discuss any aspects of k-15 or properties of k-15 whether related to fire performance or

00:57:16 related to fire performance or insulation i don't remember

00:57:21 you remember any discussion at all with david hughes about the use of kingspan

00:57:31 um

00:57:37 not that i can remember today no

00:57:51 do you are you able to tell us why as he says you sought to agree with him the use of kingspan in december 2015 or

00:58:03 december 2015 or january 2016 when as we've seen from the previous

00:58:07 previous evidence today you had already ordered kingspan in may 2015 and quite a lot of it had already been installed on the building by the end of 2015.

00:58:19 um well i think

00:58:23 there'd been a change inside management so the the people that had been around in may i don't think were there at the time when um dave was running the job

00:58:35 dave was running the job so you would imagine it would be to make him aware and as he says that we agreed to the use of it i think it would be from my perspective

00:58:48 a good idea to notify the site management at whatever time of ahead of ordering anything that's different to the specification um because you wouldn't want to order you know large values of material for it

00:59:02 you know large values of material for it to turn up on site and be turned away you say you think there had been a change in something management did you say site management i'll tell you that was site management it'd been a change in site management by the end of 2015.

00:59:13 the end of 2015. i see did it did it strike you estranged that david hughes was asking you about the suitability of the use of kingsman k-15 in circumstances where a lot of it was already on the building

00:59:32 a lot of it was already on the building i don't know if dave asked me about it i think we discussed he said we discussed it and we agreed it

00:59:45 did it did it not strike he was odd that it was something that needed to be agreed with ryden given as i say that significant quantities of k-15 were already on the building by that time

00:59:58 building by that time i think my take on it is um again as i said there was a change of time management between when the original order was placed and the subsequent order was placed and it is to let the newsline manager know if he wasn't already aware of that

01:00:11 if he wasn't already aware of that as i explained you don't order these things and turned away

01:00:21 can we look at cef sorry ccf six zeros one nine please

01:00:31 this is a cash invoice from ccf to harley

01:00:44 date of the 10th of september 2015 in relation

01:00:48 relation to a quantity of kingspan cool firm k-15 for grenfell tower you can see that's the delivery address and the price is about two and a half

01:01:01 and the price is about two and a half thousand pounds plus that um

01:01:06 it would appear from this that harley placed an order for k-15 in in may 2015 with sig but then a further order in september 2015 with ccf i think we

01:01:17 september 2015 with ccf i think we discussed that a little bit earlier is that correct it appears to be yes and now this is a cash invoice from ccf croydon branch as we can see from the top left hand corner of the document is that because harley didn't have a

01:01:29 is that because harley didn't have a credit account with ccf at that time yeah it would appear so we're hardly forced to purchase this from ccf because because of their financial difficulties

01:01:41 because of their financial difficulties um yes probably right is that because they were unable to make any more orders or take any more orders from c

01:01:48 from c from sigma yeah that could happen yeah right

01:01:58 is there any discussion with ryden about this order

01:02:04 i don't recall was there any discussion with ryden about the first order back in may 2015 that you made with sick i believe that was yes do you know who that was a discussion with i think i said earlier on simon lawrence

01:02:16 i think i said earlier on simon lawrence or simon um o'connor did you have that discussion with him

01:02:21 with him um i would have done yeah you would have done do you remember it um i have a recollection of making ryden aware of it before before we ordered it then before

01:02:33 before before we ordered it then before it arrived on site again for the same reason as i explained we we don't i think see an email on that but can you tell us in what form that discussion that all notification took

01:02:44 discussion that all notification took place it probably would have been a phone call right

01:02:50 did ccf croydon stock rs 5000. so the tax rs 5000 did you know yes they did why didn't you order that

01:03:00 i mean i i don't remember this particular um order or you know the time around the the administration is a bit of a blur

01:03:11 is a bit of a blur um but it could be program related

01:03:18 leak templated no but you'd find a supplier who was prepared to supply you with insulation on a cash basis my question we could see ordering k-15 my question is why didn't you ask them whether they

01:03:29 why didn't you ask them whether they would supply you with rs 5000

01:03:33 oh i may well have done they may have not been able to

01:03:38 deliver it in the time when we needed it

01:03:43 do you remember that or are you speculating um i don't remember i don't remember it

01:04:03 now mr hughes is referred to a discussion with him in december or january december 15 january 16. but is it possible he's wrong about

01:04:15 but is it possible he's wrong about dates that you would have had or could have had a conversation with him earlier in 2015

01:04:20 in 2015 it's been i think it's possible right do you remember whether you talked to mr hughes and obtained his permission to order k15 before you made this order on the 10th of

01:04:31 on the 10th of shortly before the 10th of september 2015.

01:04:36 2015. i i don't remember the exact dates when dave

01:04:40 dave um became involved in the job so after you'd ordered kingspan cool film k15 for what we now see here as the second

01:04:48 second time this is september 15. did you go back to ordering celetex rs 5000 or did you use kingspan k15 to finish the job you remember i believe we went back to

01:04:59 you remember i believe we went back to rs5000

01:05:02 i see

01:05:06 now can we go back to your witness statement please paragraph nine

01:05:12 on page three

01:05:17 you say in that statement four lines up from the bottom in the main the materials i ordered were contained within the specification notes i had no role in the decision

01:05:30 notes i had no role in the decision making about the materials specified this would have occurred before my involvement

01:05:39 in the light of what we've been looking at together mr bailey about the ordering of k-15 would you like to correct that statement

01:05:52 i think in that statement i'm referring to

01:05:58 the materials in the mbs i know i accept that i had a role in the king's mass substitution but i think um

01:06:09 i think what i'm getting out of my statement is

01:06:13 the other you know the materials are specified

01:06:17 specified not you know except that the kingspan was not specified

01:06:23 thank you can we then turn to a different

01:06:27 different slightly different subtopic rockwool we looked at rockwell earlier on in the context of eco funding did you at any stage consider whether any other insulation product

01:06:38 any other insulation product might be more suitable for use on grenfell tower than either rs 5000 or k15 um i don't think so no do you recall from your time at harley

01:06:51 recall from your time at harley before your involvement on the grenfell tower project the rockwool duo slab which is a mineral wool insulation product had been used on previous harley projects such as ferrier

01:07:02 previous harley projects such as ferrier point

01:07:03 point uh and and chalcott's estate

01:07:12 um think yeah i think i'd i'd visited some of those sites at points in my um uh part-time roles

01:07:23 uh part-time roles and i don't think i'm i was aware of um

01:07:31 the properties of rockwool versus four-phase rigid foam insulation boards at the time right when you were working on the merit house project in collindale

01:07:42 collindale from your time there what insulation product was used there do you remember

01:07:48 remember that was kingsman k15 that was k15 did you told us that earlier was there any consideration on that project of using mineral wool i don't think so do you know why that

01:07:59 i don't think so do you know why that was

01:08:01 was i again i think that insulation was an architect um specification right

01:08:13 i think i might answer my next question which is on the merit house project who was it who decided the k-15 should be used

01:08:20 used to the best of my recollection that would have been the architect i see

01:08:27 did you ever consider what difference it might make using a pir product rather than a mineral wool insulation product in terms of fire safety

01:08:39 safety um no

01:08:44 now we've got paragraph nine of your statement. uh up on the screen you've referred there to the specification notes there

01:08:55 let's just look at those before i turn to those i'll just repeat what you say there you say you had no role in the decision making about the materials specified for the rain screen cladding

01:09:06 specified for the rain screen cladding and you refer to the specification notes that you say were prepared before your involvement can we look at those they are

01:09:14 are har30s one double zero six zero

01:09:23 let's just be clear about the document we're looking at

01:09:36 uh if you go to

01:09:42 um you've got your statement there that's the easy way of doing this is to show you

01:09:46 show you paragraph nine you've got paragraph seven

01:09:50 seven i'll go to the harley spec in a second i should show you paragraph seven of your statement uh where you say um i first became aware that harley might be involved in the grenfell tower refurbishment project at some point in 2014

01:10:03 point in 2014 i've been shown a number of harley emails and can see that i began to be copied into emails relating to grenfell tower from around september 2014 i became more actively involved in around february 2015.

01:10:14 around february 2015. i'm just reminding you of that now can we look at the harley specification for the project that's at ryd3046822

01:10:28 you can see from the bottom right hand corner that is dated the 15th of january 2015 and it was first created by kevin lam and then this version is the one uh which is revision d of the 15th of

01:10:42 uh which is revision d of the 15th of july 2015

01:10:44 july 2015 which has been stamped a by the architect neil crawford on the 17th of july 2015. um but looking at it's looking at this document

01:10:55 document are you familiar with it yes you are um were you involved in any way in compiling it when it was first produced in the january of 2015 no now you can see that although

01:11:07 no now you can see that although there are a number of specifications set out for example for windows and for glazing and for cladding we see no mention in there of the

01:11:19 we see no mention in there of the insulation product abused on the building

01:11:22 building that's right isn't it yes do you know why that is

01:11:29 at the time i never noticed it right now given that you were in on emails

01:11:36 emails as you say on this project from september 2014 would you have been in a position to consider all race questions in relation to the materials specified prior to the composition of

01:11:49 specified prior to the composition of this document the specification notes being finalized in january 2015.

01:11:56 um i don't

01:12:00 no you you don't when you say you don't no you mean you don't know or is the answer right now we know as we've seen earlier

01:12:11 right now we know as we've seen earlier this morning that you were involved in liaising

01:12:13 liaising with mr room at celetex specifically about rs 5000 and it seems specifically for grenfell back in the summer of 2014

01:12:26 given that discussion that you'd had at that time do you know why rs 5000 was omitted from this specification notes when it was produced in january 2015

01:12:37 produced in january 2015 a number of months later

01:12:41 i don't as i said i've i never noticed it wasn't on there no when did you first see this document in the process i don't remember why was it sent to you

01:12:54 i don't remember why was it sent to you do you remember um

01:13:03 i think i i don't i don't remember specifically receiving it i'm familiar with it but i was familiar with it throughout the job would it be usual to leave out the insulation specification when designing

01:13:16 insulation specification when designing a facade system my understanding of this drawing is that it's a is a key drawing to help decipher the um

01:13:29 detailed drawings or the fabrication drawings you know in the rest of the drawing pack um it seems to be an omission from this page

01:13:42 an omission from this page i can't offer any reasons as to why it's not there

01:13:46 not there and it's not in the drawings either if we scroll down the next page we can see some drawings yeah i think you'll accept from me that there is no mention of any specification uh whether rs 5000 or even fr 5000

01:14:00 uh whether rs 5000 or even fr 5000 in these documents and and my question is would that be usual would it be usual to omit the the specification for insulation when designing a facade system

01:14:12 when designing a facade system i don't think it'd be intentional you say you didn't spot it can you explain why you didn't spot it um

01:14:25 i can't explain it no mr chairman is that a convenient moment for a is it after break it does we're about to change to a different topic yes well that probably would be a good point then

01:14:37 would be a good point then mr bailey we'll have another short break now um we will come back with 25 to 4 please of course and uh remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence of course or anything to do with it when you're out of the room okay all right

01:14:49 you're out of the room okay all right thank you

01:14:49 thank you thank you very much you'll go to the usher please

01:15:03 all right 25-40

01:32:15 all right do you like to ask mr bailey to come back in please thank you

01:32:32 right ready to carry on mr bailey i am good thank you yes mr bailey before the break we were talking

01:32:39 talking about kingspan k15 and the occasion on the 26th of may 2015 when you tell us that you examined the bba certificate at harley's offices with daniel lancaster jones and mark stapley

01:32:50 lancaster jones and mark stapley and i put to you the the 2013 second issue of that document you said you didn't look at that but you looked at the first issue we've now um extracted that from the

01:33:01 we've now um extracted that from the record it's and i'd like to look at that with you briefly it's bba 6038 please vba six zero thirty eight

01:33:12 uh and we can see that it's the same product and this is the data first issue 27th of october 2008 if we have the bottom up bottom of the of the screen up on the up

01:33:25 bottom of the of the screen up on the up on the screen there um and just looking at the document is that the document that you looked at together with mr anchoral jones and mr stapley on the afternoon i believe so yeah 26th of may 2015.

01:33:37 i believe so yeah 26th of may 2015. right and it says behavior in relation to fire the boards will not contribute to the development stages of affair or present a smoke or toxic hazard c-section seven let's look at that page five please

01:33:48 let's look at that page five please first of all

01:33:53 and behavior in relation to fire and you can see that it says the following fire tests have been undertaken to bs 8414 and you can see there that it sets out

01:34:05 and you can see there that it sets out what the test comprised and then at 7 2 the product is classified as class naught or low risk and therefore could be used in accordance with the

01:34:16 be used in accordance with the provisions of over the top of page six it says approved document b paragraph 8.4 and paragraphs 12.5 and 12.6

01:34:27 12.6 see also diagram 40 and then at 7.3 it says in buildings with a floor more than 18 meters above ground level advice should be sought from the

01:34:38 advice should be sought from the certificate holder

01:34:42 when you examined this certificate did you

01:34:45 you read paragraph 7.3 um i did not it did not can you explain why not

01:34:53 why not um i'm not there in a technical capacity um

01:35:00 um and i was there with mark and dan looking at it with them but not

01:35:07 not um

01:35:12 specifically looking at these clauses i saw the class o and that's what stood out to me right uh despite the fact that it says class naught do we take it that because you

01:35:24 naught do we take it that because you at harley you plural did not read floor 7.3

01:35:29 7.3 you did not seek advice from the certificate holder namely kingspan uh yes right now you also said before the break that

01:35:41 now you also said before the break that you had had discussions with either or both of simon lawrence or simon o'connor about the substitution of k-15 for rs 5000

01:35:52 5000 and you said it would have taken place on the phone

01:35:59 can we first of all see what mr lawrence says about

01:36:04 the substitution of k15 day 24 please page one two four

01:36:18 and i'd like you to go to line four

01:36:31 and this is in the context i should say of of k-15 and the question given that it was ryden's contractual responsibility to ensure that the insulation was compliant with the building regulations

01:36:42 with the building regulations who did you consider was responsible for making sure that that obligation was complied with answer i would expect harley's to do the design i would expect studio e to check that design to the best of their knowledge

01:36:50 knowledge and i would then expect then studio to take that to building control and have a conversation with building control and then if you look at page 149 sorry yes page 149.

01:37:08 uh and uh

01:37:15 uh this is again in the in the conversation of in the context of uh of k-15 line two were you aware of any discussions either on site or between

01:37:26 discussions either on site or between the people on site and the architectural team

01:37:29 team as you call them about the substitution of rs 5000 with cool thumb k15 and then he says no no i didn't know k15 was involved at all until the evidence

01:37:40 was involved at all until the evidence has come up

01:37:44 is he right about that i have a different recollection you have a different recollection can we look at simon o'connor day 26

01:37:57 uh please day 26 i'd like to go to page 98.

01:38:10 now at page 98 can we start at line eight a question to him was were you aware that kingspan cool them k15 insulation was used on

01:38:22 cool them k15 insulation was used on grenfell tower as well as celetex rs 5000 as an insulation product answer i wasn't then no question you weren't now were you aware that kingspan well you wouldn't have

01:38:33 that kingspan well you wouldn't have been aware i think the kingsman cool firm

01:38:35 firm k-15 was ordered in may 2015 and delivered in june 2015 to site i wouldn't have been aware of that no right

01:38:44 right is he right about that

01:38:48 um is he referring to when he left the project when he in june 2015. well we know when he left the project

01:38:59 well we know when he left the project i'm showing you his evidence and i'm asking you whether his recollection of calls with your recollection about whether you actually ever had a conversation with mr o'connor about the substitution of cool them k-15

01:39:10 about the substitution of cool them k-15 for 5000.

01:39:14 um i think from what i said earlier on my conversation with would have been with either simon and i was unclear on that i think seeing that it would make me say it was

01:39:26 seeing that it would make me say it was someone lawrence i had the conversation with

01:39:28 with right and can you be more precise about when

01:39:32 when you had a conversational conversations with simon lawrence about the substitution of k15 for rs 5000.

01:39:41 5000. i i couldn't give you an exact date but it would

01:39:45 it would most likely be between the time the supply she came up and then before it arrived on site because as i said earlier on the last thing you want is

01:39:55 want is to have it all turned away having you know what did simon lawrence say to you in response to your telling him um do you recall i think he saw the

01:40:06 um do you recall i think he saw the reasoning behind it in terms of program keeping everyone working

01:40:14 and agree to a belief agree to it straight away

01:40:25 um yeah believe so

01:40:30 right so were you aware then that when he was agreeing to it he had not gone back to studio e and asked them for their opinion about the suitability of k-15 he may have

01:40:43 of k-15 he may have done after the fact at that time he wouldn't be able to do it so you were prepared to take it to him at his word even though you weren't told that he would need to check it first with the architect

01:40:55 check it first with the architect is that right i wasn't aware at the time of the steps that

01:41:08 of the steps that um could have been taken and i think it was a mistake to not put this substitution in writing

01:41:17 did you seek any written confirmation from simon lawrence that the substitution was acceptable i did not

01:41:25 did not and that was why is that i didn't think two at the time would it not have been sensible to do that given that this was a substitution of of

01:41:36 a substitution of of a a an insulation product i think in hindsight yes and as i said before it's a mistake to not do that

01:41:48 my question on top of that is why were you prepared to go along with simon lawrence's consent to using the product in circumstances where you

01:41:59 circumstances where you knew that he hadn't already checked it first with studio e

01:42:06 in yeah in my mind it was a light for like replacement and with the rs5000 right let's look at infill panels

01:42:18 right let's look at infill panels different topic now these are the panels that sat between the windows and above the cladding spandrel panels so just to be clear you know what i'm talking about when i say windows all right can we first go to har 301779

01:42:32 all right can we first go to har 301779 sorry 17738 please har3017738 now we can see that this is the third of

01:42:43 now we can see that this is the third of march and it's an email from kevin lam to simon lawrence uh copied to a number of people uh including daniel anchored jones and you uh and there are attached with a

01:42:54 you uh and there are attached with a number of drawings um did you review those drawings when you received this email

01:43:02 um i don't know about one receipt of the email but

01:43:07 email but it's um

01:43:11 it's um i probably would have looked at the drawings at some point yes

01:43:15 uh right why did you think you were being copied in on this email well there i think it's a are they

01:43:28 well there i think it's a are they revised drawings right let's turn to one of them uh which is har403953

01:43:44 and this is revision d

01:43:49 which was produced on the 3rd of march 2015

01:43:53 2015 do you see in the revisions box where it says fire breaks added you see that yes

01:44:00 and we can see that it's authored by kevin lam

01:44:05 kevin lam and if we pan back out again it says approved for construction and if we look at it more closely we can see that there are two panels in hatch the p1 panel and the p2 panel you see

01:44:18 the p1 panel and the p2 panel you see that

01:44:19 that p1 panel is the one that sits between the windows of the kitchen and the bedroom and p2 is the one within the window itself which has the kitchen extract fan so p1 is the big one and p2 is the small

01:44:30 so p1 is the big one and p2 is the small one

01:44:31 one yes yes yeah um did you yourself and you received

01:44:36 received this pack of drawings make any investigation as to which materials comprise p1 and p2 respectively uh i don't think so now you were provided with the specification notes

01:44:48 provided with the specification notes or specification which uh kevin lam had done

01:44:52 done uh on the same day if we look at an email har3017746 please we'll see it

01:45:11 see that there's the email and uh the specification is is attached as one of the documents do you think you reviewed it

01:45:26 i couldn't tell you either way right at that time well let's let's let's turn to to it and take take it from there it's har3017762

01:45:44 take it from there it's har3017762 this is the document we looked at just before the break this afternoon mr bailey uh it's originally dated the 15th of january 2015. this one is revision b third of march

01:45:57 this one is revision b third of march 2015

01:46:01 and we can see that the design of the infield panel at p1 just halfway down the column on the left hand side

01:46:10 hand side was to be formed of a 1.5 millimeter aluminium skin enclosing 25 millimeters of styrofoam you see that yes now styrofoam am i right is a trading name for extruded

01:46:22 right is a trading name for extruded polystyrene insulation material otherwise known as xps um i'm not aware of that but i'm not doubting you okay you don't know

01:46:33 i'm not doubting you okay you don't know that

01:46:34 that do you do you know who it was who specified

01:46:37 specified xps uh

01:46:40 xps uh extruded polystyrene for use on grenfell tower

01:46:47 i think i think from other evidence i've seen there's some handwriting on this drawing and that's been identified as mark stapley hasn't it well you're commenting on the evidence

01:46:59 well you're commenting on the evidence do you know from your recollection at the time

01:47:01 the time who it was who specified xps for use from grenfell tower i wasn't aware of that at the time now okay

01:47:09 okay kevin lam was asked this question uh and i'll show you what he says it's transcript for day 38

01:47:18 at page 167 and i'd just like to show you line 21 and following

01:47:25 he says at line 21 rather he's asked by ms grange

01:47:29 ms grange at line 21 do you recall who told you that you were using products from panel systems

01:47:36 systems answer ben question ben query you clearly remember that do you answer without a doubt yes and then if we turn to page 168 how come you're so clear on that when in relation to other discussions you can't be sure who it was that told you

01:47:50 be sure who it was that told you answer because he that's you he was doing purchasing and at the time what they would do is products would have to come from suppliers that they used so as they can get

01:48:02 that they used so as they can get credits and and what have you so i remember asking ben where are we getting these panels from he said go to panel systems there's no one else in the company at that point that or maybe mark stapley but i know i didn't talk to mark

01:48:15 but i know i didn't talk to mark you'd know you didn't talk to mark question answer didn't talk to mark stapley no on your understanding was it ben who specified these panels for use answer he said we would go to panel

01:48:27 answer he said we would go to panel systems

01:48:28 systems not question right and all they offered were single color panels with a styrofoam core

01:48:37 and i want to ask you head on mr bailey was it you who specified these panels for use at grenfell tower no who was it

01:48:48 no who was it mark tapley you see mr lam is crystal clear in his recollection that it wasn't mark stapley but it was you can you account for that

01:49:02 but it was you can you account for that um mark ordered the panels

01:49:08 in in january i think right do you know why he said go to panel systems

01:49:26 yeah but that wasn't me you weren't there

01:49:29 there in early january mid-january we know that but you had taken over as project manager by the third of march hadn't you

01:49:40 third of march hadn't you oh yeah i believe so yes and we can see from the 3rd of march email that you received this document

01:49:49 when you did did you investigate how it came about that

01:49:58 xps had been stipulated as part of the spec

01:50:05 um i didn't i think they'd already been ordered at that point

01:50:16 now you say you didn't order from panel systems my question was why would mark stapley have told kevin lam to go to panel systems or use

01:50:28 kevin lam to go to panel systems or use a product

01:50:29 a product made by panel systems as opposed to anybody else i don't know now neither a neither panel systems nor xps

01:50:38 xps as a material were were contained in the nbs specification or in the january

01:50:45 january 2014 harley quotation that's right isn't it

01:50:50 um

01:50:55 if yeah if that's what you're telling me i don't know any differently well when you reviewed the h92 part of the nbs spec and all the other parts that were to do with harley's work package did you see

01:51:07 harley's work package did you see panel systems referred to uh i i don't remember seeing panel systems did you see extruded polystyrene whether it's styrofoam or any other brand name referred to i don't believe

01:51:21 brand name referred to i don't believe so

01:51:22 so do you know why it was that a specific product

01:51:30 such as panel systems or xps wasn't in the nbs specification but is on the harley spec that mr lam created

01:51:40 um i i don't know coming back to mr mr lam's evidence where he says he's crystal clear that he didn't talk to mark stapley it was you who said go to panel systems

01:51:54 it was you who said go to panel systems are you saying he's wrong about that in his recollection um i've got a different recollection i don't think i even knew of panel systems at the time

01:52:12 now we if we can go back to the spec itself har 3017762 please

01:52:23 spec itself har 3017762 please we can see uh p1 we looked at it before it's just panels with an outer cor an outer skin aluminium uh

01:52:34 cor an outer skin aluminium uh on both sides and a an inner core of 25 millimeters of styrofoam can you explain why there's no specific product referred to there

01:52:46 product referred to there it just says panels

01:52:49 i can't explain that now what specific pro

01:52:53 pro when you saw this document what specific product did you think that was referring to

01:52:58 to p1 panels

01:53:02 um

01:53:07 in terms of a specific product um i don't i don't know but i could deduce from that makeup it's a

01:53:17 a insulated sandwich panel but it does have specific products right would you accept that given that there's no specification of a specific product here

01:53:29 product here it would make it that much harder to investigate that product's properties or performance for example in relation to fire performance

01:53:39 um

01:53:43 i mean i i don't know if there is a specific um brand name for those panels well let's look at the

01:53:54 look at the order process can you go please to har four zero is nine six nine five please nine six nine five this is

01:54:05 this is an email from mark stapley to you on the 12th of march 2015. so about a week and a half after the email which sends you the revision b of the harley speck

01:54:18 revision b of the harley speck which we just looked at and it simply attaches something a pdf uh and we can see from that document that that is a

01:54:29 is a panel dispatch systems dispatch note perhaps we just have a look at it it's har

01:54:34 har four six please

01:54:44 and it's a dispatch note or an invoice to harley curtin wall to be delivered to cep you see that and the product is alley glazed panels

01:54:55 and the product is alley glazed panels 20 ml

01:54:56 20 ml eight millimeters thick specification aloe glaze and there you have the the composition external face one and a half millimeters

01:55:08 external face one and a half millimeters aluminium

01:55:09 aluminium core material 25 millimeters styrofoam internal face one and a half millimeters aluminium

01:55:21 and we can see that the product is identified as aluglaze is that the p1 material specified on the harley spec

01:55:33 harley spec um it appears to be yeah do you do you honest do you know why the alu glaze as a product wasn't spelt out on the harley spec by kevin

01:55:44 spelt out on the harley spec by kevin lam

01:55:45 lam i don't know

01:55:49 do you remember whether it was you who placed the order with panel systems that led to this dispatch note or whether it was mark stafford i believe it was mark stapley it's i'm so sorry it's stapley is it not stabbing

01:56:01 so sorry it's stapley is it not stabbing yeah it's stapley um

01:56:07 were you aware that alu glaze

01:56:11 as a product also came in a fire resistant a1 rated version with a mineral fibre core um i don't think so was mark stapley aware

01:56:23 i don't think so was mark stapley aware of that do you know i don't i don't know was there any other discussion or any consideration for use of an alu glaze a1 rated panel with a fibre core mineral fibre core for use

01:56:34 a fibre core mineral fibre core for use at grenfell tower i don't know

01:56:41 did you have any involvement at all in specifying this material or this product for use in this location on the building i don't think so what was the purpose of mark stapley

01:56:52 mark stapley sending you the order note or the dispatch

01:56:56 dispatch note that he does as we see on the 12th of march 2015. um well i can see it's going to cep who are the manufacturers of the

01:57:08 cep who are the manufacturers of the windows

01:57:08 windows these were going into because they were glazing the factory um so

01:57:15 um so i would

01:57:18 gather from that is to let me know that you know they're on the way cb can expect them when you saw this document

01:57:28 and saw that the core material was styrofoam

01:57:32 styrofoam did you have any thoughts about whether styrofoam was an appropriate material for use on a high-rise building above 18 meters

01:57:42 um i i don't remember my thoughts on this at the time

01:57:50 would you agree with me that such material was required to be of limited combustibility in order to be compliant with the building regulations

01:58:02 my knowledge then and my knowledge now well your knowledge then um i didn't have any um

01:58:13 i'd have a view on it did anybody at harley seek any information from panel systems as to the fire performance of this product this alley glaze panel i don't know did you review any sales

01:58:25 i don't know did you review any sales documentation about the properties of value glaze

01:58:32 no

01:58:37 do you accept that given that styrofoam is not of limited combustibility it should not have been specified for the p1 panel

01:58:44 p1 panel because it was going to be used above 18 meters

01:58:49 meters um so he said could you repeat the question please let me take it let me break it down for you do you accept that the p1 panel as we've seen was part of the external surface of the building

01:59:04 no you don't accept that also it did not pass the external wall i don't think you don't i see you say that the p1 panel is not part of the external

01:59:12 external wall why do you say that so my current understanding of um adb

01:59:21 of um adb my current reading of it is that windows and their inserts are not deemed part of the wall that's your understanding now but what was your understanding at the time did you think at the time that the p1 p1 panel was part of the external wall i

01:59:33 p1 panel was part of the external wall i didn't have an understanding of that at the time

01:59:51 were you aware of the guidance at the time and i'm sorry to push this point because i think i know what your your answer will be but i feel i should ask you anyway were you aware of the guidance at the time contained an appendix f of approved

02:00:03 contained an appendix f of approved document b about insulating core panels whether where they are used for external cladding no

02:00:17 can we talk about the p2 panel now can we go back to the harley specification at har30

02:00:30 we can see now that just below halfway down the glazing p2 panels were same outer core one and a half millimeters aluminium skin but this time the core is 25

02:00:44 skin but this time the core is 25 millimeters of kingspan tp10 rigid insulation do you know who specified the kingsman tp10 for use on grenfell tower

02:00:55 tp10 for use on grenfell tower um i believe that was um kevin yes now it wasn't on the nba specification or indeed

02:01:02 or indeed in the january 2014 harley quotation either was it no no do you know why a specific product was not specified at that point in the

02:01:13 was not specified at that point in the design process

02:01:19 i don't know and again do you accept that this was an insulating product for use on the external

02:01:26 external in the external wall of the building or do you say the same thing as the p1 yeah right now kevin lam told us when he gave evidence last week that the reason why tp10 was specified for the p2 panel

02:01:39 why tp10 was specified for the p2 panel at grenfell tower was because the was because panel systems didn't manufacture their

02:01:45 their their styrofoam panels in the correct color

02:01:49 color was that your understanding um

02:01:54 that's not something i've heard before right

02:01:58 right no um but just for the reference that's day 38 page 176 line 22. you say that's something you hadn't heard before did did we take it from that but you didn't have a conversation with kevin lam about

02:02:09 conversation with kevin lam about about using kingspan tp10 as the inner core

02:02:17 yeah i i don't recall these conversations if we go to har 40247 we can see that you placed an order

02:02:30 we can see that you placed an order with panel systems on the 11th of september 2015. this is an email from you on that day to panel systems

02:02:41 uh and it's addressed to someone called neil

02:02:45 neil please see purchase order attached to replace the one placed under harley curtain wall limited now administration and the purchase order itself is at hir

02:02:58 50445

02:03:02 do you recognize that document

02:03:08 um yeah i recognize it as a first

02:03:16 it was you who placed the order with panel systems and then i think um you wrote to them with an amended order after harley kirkenwald had gone into administration okay yes

02:03:28 administration okay yes now let's look at page six of that document we can see that you attach a schedule

02:03:36 and it's panel schedule three curtain wall

02:03:40 wall and we've got panel spec p2 p3 p4 and p5 you see that yes uh and they are all as you can see there formed with

02:03:51 all as you can see there formed with aluminium skin on the outside external and internal and a 25 millimeter kingspan tp10 in p2p3 and p4 and

02:04:03 in p2p3 and p4 and in p5 um a combination of wp ply and kingsman tp10 um do you know where that schedule came from

02:04:14 from who compiled it um that'd be me you compiled that to do yes right

02:04:21 it is what we see set out on that schedule what actually got delivered to site

02:04:29 um i i don't know from seeing those kind of panels that i don't know if there's a way of identifying that

02:04:41 now the inquiries experts found from their site inspections after the fire that the panels used at p2 did not have so far as they could see a kingspan tp10 core but rather a styrofoam core

02:04:55 if they're correct about that can you explain that

02:05:00 um as you can see from that i ordered tp10 as i'm sure it says on the

02:05:09 the specification notes so i can't answer why

02:05:13 why well let me show you let me show you a little bit more specifically can we please have up blast six zeros eight and i'd like to go to page 62

02:05:25 eight and i'd like to go to page 62 please

02:05:30 and on page 62 and over onto 63

02:05:39 we can see at the bottom of 62 paragraph 8.10.41

02:05:52 at the bottom of 62 paragraph 8.10.41 and and there's the diagram the window insert p2

02:05:57 and dr lane says the core material of the specification does not consistent with my observations from sight as shown in figure 8.73 although the drawings and specifications

02:06:08 drawings and specifications can go over the page indicate the material specified as kingspan tp10pir the foam insulation observed on site was light blue which is consistent with the styrofoam extruded polystyrene material

02:06:20 styrofoam extruded polystyrene material as specified for the main infill panels alu glaze and then if we go a little bit further down page 63 we'll look at figure 8.73 please

02:06:32 we'll look at figure 8.73 please um you can see uh

02:06:37 that there that's it 8.73 you can see the 25 millimeter layer of styrofoam in the light blue core of the panel there and the description under the figure window

02:06:48 description under the figure window insert insulating core panel removed from glazing system flat 10 kitchen however this window insert was present for every flat as per the harley specification can you account for how it comes about

02:07:00 can you account for how it comes about that the p2 panel contained a 25 millimeter layer of styrofoam as opposed to the tp10 kingspan as um stipulated or specified

02:07:17 i don't have any having conversations with panel systems about them changing it so beyond that um i'd be guessing that they

02:07:28 um i'd be guessing that they have changed themselves

02:07:32 when it arrived on site did did nobody check to make sure that what you had ordered was consistent with what was being delivered

02:07:45 so i think with the with the panels with the um delivery we looked at earlier on they were going to cep so they were

02:07:52 they were glazed into the majority of the window frames already that were fitted to the bulk of the tower there were some smaller ones

02:08:02 ordered i think later on in the draw they were delivered like that to site in terms of why that was not identified i don't know i've also never

02:08:13 i've also never seen kingsman tp10 so um

02:08:19 i don't know if i'd known what color it was

02:08:24 did you ever do the exercise of comparing what was delivered on site by way of the p2 panels with what was specified in the purchase

02:08:35 with what was specified in the purchase order

02:08:36 order we've seen

02:08:39 um

02:08:46 i'm i'm thinking about how you'd um do that um

02:08:55 i didn't check but i don't know how you would check

02:09:03 so you say you don't know how you wouldn't know how to go about a project a check of a product between what's delivered

02:09:10 delivered and what's specified visually inspecting it um internally the color of the insulation i think would be

02:09:21 would be a giveaway to someone who knew what color styrofoam was versus tb10 this is what i'm saying um and you know i didn't know the difference to look for

02:09:36 does that mean that you are entirely reliant

02:09:39 reliant on the manufacturer and supplier to deliver to site what was in the purchase order i think it's an expectation

02:09:51 an expectation that they'd do so

02:09:54 would that be normal in your admittedly limited experience as a project manager

02:10:03 sorry what would be reliance on a manufacturer to deliver to site what was the subject of the order would that would it be normal to rely on a manufacturer without conducting any checks yourself

02:10:16 um

02:10:20 i think broadly speaking yes i mean to my limited experience with styrofoam panels um

02:10:32 styrofoam panels um i couldn't see a way to check the difference i don't

02:10:46 so does that explain why you didn't make a check you couldn't see a way to do it

02:10:53 i was i also wasn't looking out for um

02:11:01 to be deceived mr billy is it part of your point that it could have been checked because i think the witness said earlier once these panels are glazed into the windows

02:11:12 these panels are glazed into the windows assembly you can't very easily see what the core is well i think my point's really more addressed mr chairman to the ones that arrive later separately

02:11:24 the ones that arrive later separately so let me let's just focus on that

02:11:31 um but before i get there in relation to the ones that are glazed into the window panel yes they are what you see from the purchase orders

02:11:42 orders isn't uh a a set of windows which includes composite elements including the p1 or p2 panel you're actually ordering the p2 panels as a separate product

02:11:54 product uh and we've seen that from the purchase orders

02:11:59 so i'm just trying to get to the bottom of how it comes about that since you're ordering them as a separate panel and indeed they're specified on the harley spec as a separate product how come they're delivered

02:12:10 how come they're delivered in a way that means you can't check what it is you've ordered well the the as i understand it the p1 and the

02:12:18 and the p2 panels were installed into the frames into the helens at the cep factory that's what they'll deliver to and the order you've shown me um that i placed just now is for the current

02:12:29 placed just now is for the current curtain wall system on the lower floor so um with your reference to p1 and p2 panels uh

02:12:40 you also said that there were some smaller ones ordered later on in the job delivered to a site was there a way that you could check those which weren't glazed into the window system and look at the edges

02:12:51 and look at the edges and and compare the the color and feel of the material with tp10 the subject of the specification

02:13:06 i think yes i think you as long as the edges aren't taped and i don't know if there were tapes or not um you could physically as you said feel the texture and the

02:13:19 as you said feel the texture and the color

02:13:20 color but as i said try to say we tried to make the point earlier on that rely on knowing the difference between the two products

02:13:26 products and i didn't know the difference between the visual difference between the two products right

02:13:39 can i ask you to turn to the witness statement of mr michael roach he's panel systems and this is pan5029 i'm sorry six zero it's 29 pan6029

02:13:55 and he's asked a question

02:14:02 at question 12 so this is on page three

02:14:11 uh and he says the only conversation i had i should tell you what the question is the question is did was did you discuss the suitability of an insulated panel with the core

02:14:22 an insulated panel with the core material of kingsplan tp10 with any of your colleagues at psl if not why not if so please provide details of those discussions and his answer is the only conversation i had was to advise that tp10 is not suitable

02:14:34 was to advise that tp10 is not suitable as a core in a composite panel due to the manufacturing tolerance and uneven surface of the tp-10 i recall discussing an alternative pir insulation that was more suitable as a panel core

02:14:46 panel core so to your knowledge was tp10 ever actually supplied at all as the core of panels

02:14:50 panels by panel system or do they all have a styrofoam core um

02:14:59 i think well i think from what we've seen i think the reality is that they were

02:15:05 were supplied as a styrofoam core as dr lane has suggested

02:15:12 yes and he says and the only conversation i had was that conversation with you

02:15:17 with you do you think i don't think so you don't recall a conversation with michael roach of panel systems

02:15:24 um no

02:15:33 were you ever told that tp10 was not going to be used despite it being what was specified on the highly specification not that i recall did you ever communicate the change in product to anyone else within harley

02:15:49 nor that i recall what about writing not oracle what about studio e so far as you had contact with them not that recall is there a reason why

02:16:01 not that recall is there a reason why that change was never communicated even to anyone else in harley or

02:16:06 harley or let alone riding all studio e as it changed on the drawing of change changing the change in the in what was put on the building from what was ordered i don't know

02:16:20 do i take it that you never uh sought or looked at the bba certificate for these panels or even whether there was one i don't know if there was one no

02:16:33 no do you accept that you ought to have investigated whether this was an appropriate product say i say this the pt the p2 panels as delivered

02:16:42 delivered for use on grenfell tower as a building over 18 meters in height

02:16:48 i mean

02:16:58 at the time the first panels were ordered

02:17:02 i didn't order them it it didn't occur to me at that time um and with the subsequent orders subsequent order that i've had placed for the curtin wall and the lower floor

02:17:13 for the curtin wall and the lower floor windows

02:17:18 again it's not a thought that came to my mind

02:17:22 do you accept that somebody at harley should have checked whether or not the panels were suitable for use on a building in over 80 meters in height

02:17:36 on my current understanding of adb

02:17:41 i'd probably say no on the on the basis that

02:17:46 that the windows are excluded from the external wall and that in the configuration that we had where it's a fully bonded thermoplastic core you take the surface

02:17:58 thermoplastic core you take the surface where you can take the surface properties of the product as the performance of the product that's my understanding now so to answer your point for use above 18 meters

02:18:09 meters on that take on it no right

02:18:17 no right did you ever look at the bba certificate for tp10

02:18:21 for tp10 i did not you didn't did you know that it was a warm roof insulation product i did not

02:18:38 insulation product i did not can i ask you to look at har3020436

02:18:50 please

02:18:57 this is an email from you to panel systems

02:19:00 systems 2nd of september 2015. you say hi mike as discussed on the phone i'm looking into ways

02:19:07 into ways of mounting an anti-arson letterbox on a glazed in panel in a curtain wall screen as the letterbox is fireproof do you offer a non-combustible brackets class naught

02:19:20 non-combustible brackets class naught brackets composite panel in a 28 millimeter thickness painted on both sides in a standard ral color that i could fix the letterbox too

02:19:29 now first of all do you have any recollection of the telephone conversation which you're referring to here

02:19:35 here um not the telephone call now no was this in the context of the grenfell tower um

02:19:42 tower um project at that time or possibly another project

02:19:45 project early september 2015. this is grandfather tower yes it was grenfell tower

02:19:50 tower now you say do you offer a non-combustible brackets class naught brackets composite panel would it be fair to say looking at that at the time but you thought class naught meant that a product was non-combustible

02:20:03 a product was non-combustible um yeah as i said earlier one about my misconception of class o and um limiting possibility yes right so you accept that was a misconception because is that because

02:20:14 misconception because is that because you now know that class naught and non non-combustible are not equivalent terms yes yes can you now be shown har402853

02:20:30 now be shown har402853 this is a quotation from panel systems for a

02:20:34 for a class naught composite panel sent to you uh dated the 4th of september 2015. you can see the date in the top right hand corner mr bailey

02:20:46 hand corner mr bailey and you see in big letters underneath your your address class naught composite panel and there is a quotation which follows below that uh uh external face and then core

02:20:59 uh uh external face and then core material two times twelve millimeters versafire and then the internal face external

02:21:04 external internal faces being aluminium in both cases now versafire did you know versafire is an a1 rated non-combustible board did you know that

02:21:15 non-combustible board did you know that yeah i know it is as a cement sheathing board

02:21:19 board you know it is also did you know that at the time that it was a cement sheathing board

02:21:25 board that was my understanding yes right so does that tell us that you were aware that panel systems could provide a fire resistant panel using a versafire core

02:21:38 um

02:21:43 i'm getting him uh this is prompting a memory now um and i know i said i didn't remember a phone call with michael but um it's prompting memory now that

02:21:54 but um it's prompting memory now that when we there was a discus some discussion about it being not something that was usually asked for

02:22:03 asked for um and it was a it was a head scratcher for them

02:22:09 for them and now you showed me this i remember getting this quotation back

02:22:17 the fact that they've referred to as a class a composite panel not an a1 composite panel i think

02:22:28 suggest this is a sort of a custom solution

02:22:33 and as a custom solution was there any discussion within harley about whether this um solution should be used instead of the p1 or p2 panels no because this was um an

02:22:46 no because this was um an inquiry we made specifically because of the

02:22:50 the um anti-arson letterbox when we were asked the price for that was told by i think claire williams from the council that um

02:23:00 that um it is a risk that they consider with letterboxes on their on their properties um that they are subject to arsenal attacks and we were

02:23:08 we were specifically asked to um provide something

02:23:12 something like that um and i think we took a little

02:23:15 little a step further forward

02:23:20 in terms of the provision for the letterbox

02:23:25 i think what followed on from this was the discussion from where i now know about the um

02:23:34 the thinking behind the internet sandwich panels when they're glazed into a system and taking the service rating of those products did this quotation

02:23:47 did this quotation class naught composite panel not caused you to reconsider whether the window infill panels with their styrofoam or tp10 cores were appropriate or should be replaced

02:23:58 were appropriate or should be replaced with

02:23:59 with this kind of composite panel not at all why is that it didn't bring any alarm bells right you didn't put two and two together and think gosh actually perhaps

02:24:10 together and think gosh actually perhaps we should be using that instead of these infill panels no i've got i wasn't aware there was a problem with other panels do you now accept that this is something you should have reconsidered having been alerted to the existence of

02:24:21 having been alerted to the existence of this custom product by panel systems

02:24:26 um i mean in hindsight

02:24:33 possibly mr chairman it's half past four yeah and i've come to the end of a number of sub-topics and a big topic and about to

02:24:43 about to start a different topic altogether probably better to start i think it would

02:24:47 would we have lost a little bit of time because of the technical difficulties and

02:24:50 and mr renters problems this morning but we i hope we can make those up during the course of the day but if not we will revisit it tomorrow if i may yes all right thank you very much well we'll we'll

02:25:01 we'll we'll we'll stop there for the day uh mr bailey um

02:25:06 bailey um i'm going to have to ask you to come back and answer some more questions tomorrow please of course um but and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning and please bear in mind and the

02:25:18 and please bear in mind and the temptation may be very strong when you're going home because you'll see your

02:25:21 your father and others but please don't talk about your evidence or anything to do with

02:25:26 with the subject matter of it over the break all right

02:25:29 all right of course thank you very much so um if you go with the usher now we'll see you tomorrow thank you thank you very much

02:25:46 thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you

02:26:05 you