Morning and afternoon examination of Mark Harris, sales agent for Harley Facades. Testimony covers his commission-based role securing contracts, pre-contractual involvement in Grenfell, relationship with Rydon, and understanding of facade specifications and ACM materials.
00:33:15 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing our next witness mr mark harris will be giving evidence by video link from his home although the risk of contracting kovid
00:33:28 although the risk of contracting kovid 19
00:33:29 19 as a result of attending this building is small
00:33:33 is small i'm satisfied that in his case it would not be reasonable to require him to come here to give his evidence steps have been taken to ensure that he gives his evidence without any risk
00:33:44 gives his evidence without any risk of intervention by others so i'm going to begin by checking that mr harris can see
00:33:50 see and hear me clearly good morning mr harris
00:33:55 harris yeah i can see and hear you clearly good thank you very much can i ask you then to make the affirmation which you've got i think either on the screen or on a card in front of you i have in front of me yes oh if you get
00:34:08 i have in front of me yes oh if you get them please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth good thank you
00:34:19 and nothing but the truth good thank you very much
00:34:20 very much now can i just run through a couple of things with you before i invite mr millet to
00:34:25 millet to start asking some questions can you confirm that you're alone in the room from which you're giving evidence thank you uh can you also confirm that you
00:34:36 you only have with you the documents that the inquiries provided to you i do would you like to see them sir or no no we'll take your word for it but you don't have any other materials with you
00:34:48 materials with you i don't know right thank you can you also confirm please ah no i've lost you can you still see me i can see you i can see your document on the screen as well
00:34:59 the screen as well oh no it's just you now right good thank you
00:35:03 you um can you also please confirm for me that your mobile phone is in another room and that you don't have any other electronic device in the room with you which could receive
00:35:14 in the room with you which could receive messages
00:35:16 messages correct all right thank you now you should know that your counsel mr renters is here
00:35:22 is here sitting with us listening to your evidence and watching you give it and if anything crops up that he feels he needs to bring to my attention he's here to do that all right okay yes um i'd hope we shan't
00:35:35 all right okay yes um i'd hope we shan't have any problems with sound or vision if we have any problems with sound please could you attract your attention by raising your hand or some other gestures to
00:35:46 hand or some other gestures to make it clear that you can't hear any longer and then we'll take steps to sort it out um last thing we'll have a break in any event during the morning roughly halfway through the morning
00:35:57 morning but if you feel you need a break at any other time please just say so and we can do that all right okay yes anything you need to clarify before you
00:36:08 anything you need to clarify before you start answering questions no i think i'm fine thank you thank you very much mr millet mr chairman thank you very much good morning good morning mr harris can i just start by thanking you very
00:36:20 can i just start by thanking you very much for attending today even remotely to give evidence we very much appreciate it if you have any difficulty understanding my questions uh then i'm happy to repeat the question
00:36:32 uh then i'm happy to repeat the question or put the question in a different way um the other thing is can you see me clearly when i'm asking you questions i can say yes and you can hear me well enough can you
00:36:43 and you can hear me well enough can you okay yeah very good can i ask you to try to keep your voice up so that the transcribers who are sitting in this room with us can hear you and also don't nod or shake your head
00:36:54 your head um say yes or no if that's appropriate accordingly all right um now you've made two witness statements um i want to show them to you first of all you have them in hard copy but they'll also appear on the screen in
00:37:06 they'll also appear on the screen in front of you the first is the metropolitan police statement of the 30th of november 2017 at
00:37:15 met3012823 can you please be shown that
00:37:31 can you see that on the screen uh yes i can yeah right uh it was a little slow we'll try and speed that up as we go um if you look at the top of page one is
00:37:42 if you look at the top of page one is that your electronic signature at the top
00:37:45 top it is yeah and uh have you read this this statement recently can you confirm that his contents are true yes
00:37:55 true yes the second statement is the inquiry statement that you made on the 8th of november 2018. can i please have that that's
00:38:03 zero har-30101 five nine
00:38:09 uh is that the first page of your inquiry statement can you confirm i'll confirm yeah it is thank you and can you confirm you've read this statement recently and if you look at page 16 which is on
00:38:20 and if you look at page 16 which is on the screen in front of you is that your signature
00:38:23 signature it is yeah and can you confirm that the contents of that statement are true yes thank you i want to start with some general questions about your background um would you agree with me that you
00:38:34 um would you agree with me that you don't have any formal qualifications in respect of facade engineering or the like
00:38:40 like yes can i just say i think the document can be taken down um for the moment we can have mr harris back on the screen um you've been involved i think in the
00:38:51 um you've been involved i think in the facade industry for about 30 years haven't you yeah i think it's about 32 now because obviously at the time
00:39:02 pause for a second um we need to have mr harris full screen unless we have a document up so can we have him back full screen please
00:39:16 thank you yes yes
00:39:20 and during your 32 years now is it fair to say
00:39:23 to say that you have amassed a wealth of knowledge in the facade industry generally uh yeah i think that knowledge is um i think it'll be a true thing to say
00:39:34 think it'll be a true thing to say is general knowledge in terms of um the role i've had in other words the business development side of the industry now paragraph 34 of your statement page eight i don't think there's any
00:39:45 page eight i don't think there's any need to put it up i'll just read you what you say you say in response to a question regarding the building regulations i'm unable to to answer questions relating to building regulations compliance
00:39:56 compliance i'm not qualified in this regard and this matter would be dealt with by a suitably qualified person or persons within the client team ryden studio e and harley i've read that
00:40:07 ryden studio e and harley i've read that out to you does it follow from that that you wouldn't ordinarily advise on for example whether an overall design or structure would comply with the building regulations
00:40:19 the building regulations as part of your role at harley would you be qualified to advise on compliance of specific products
00:40:30 or specific design elements
00:40:35 and it's right i think to say that you don't have any design expertise that's correct during your relationship with harley do you know what formal or internal
00:40:46 do you know what formal or internal competency training harley provided to staff or contractors such as yourself to keep up to date with industry accepted codes of practice
00:40:57 accepted codes of practice i'm not totally i i do know that they had
00:41:00 had members of the team that had uh msc and facade engineering for example um so i know that they had individuals that had gone through that training
00:41:12 that had gone through that training did you personally keep up to date with developments in the cladding industry generally
00:41:19 it depends what you mean by up to date um i mean i'm i'm not keeping up to date with um technical things and because that's not my remit in life
00:41:30 my remit in life but i would be keeping up to date with general things so it really depends what you mean
00:41:33 you mean by that well let me give you one or two examples did you keep up to date with the technical bulletins that came from industry bodies such as the bca the building control alliance or
00:41:46 cwct uh now your specialism was in what i think you describe as the front end of the facade business by that do you mean that you were focused on the client side of the facade
00:41:58 on the client side of the facade industry
00:42:00 industry um it's it's really um the front end is what i would call seeking out opportunities to tender excuse me um the
00:42:12 excuse me um the there's quite often an ultimate client that we won't have any connection with our client tends to be a main contractor or principal contractor such as ryden for example so i would be pursuing companies such as those
00:42:24 pursuing companies such as those um as well as sometimes early doors things like with architects um yeah so is it fair to say that your focus would be on obtaining new work and developing relationships with
00:42:36 and developing relationships with clients who might then provide work in the future to in order to promote harley absolutely correct yeah and to do that you would liaise with companies that sat both above and below harley in the supply chain
00:42:48 harley in the supply chain is that right correct yeah now from about 2011 is it right that you worked exclusively full time for harley i think that was probably about right yeah
00:43:00 think that was probably about right yeah i can't remember exactly it was somewhere around that time yeah was there a formal contract under which you were retained to work for harley
00:43:10 how were you remunerated um there was a small retainer and then everything else was commission based which was based on a value on the contract value
00:43:22 contract value um the order value as it were as at 2013 what uh was that commission what were the commission arrangements well i think it changes i think
00:43:33 well i think it changes i think originally because um for the first i don't know 15 years or so of self-employment i worked for multiple companies not just harley
00:43:43 harley and so in the early days of harley they were doing much smaller jobs so there was a sliding scale i can't remember the exact detail because bray and i go back a long way that's ray bailey and
00:43:55 go back a long way that's ray bailey and so it was very much a handshake um but i from memory believe it was somewhere between one percent to two and a half percent of the contract value and depending on what that value was and i honestly can't
00:44:06 what that value was and i honestly can't remember those values later on that changed because harley's job size became larger there was an agreement that he just came straight forward once what commission did you earn i think it was i'm sorry go ahead i'm
00:44:18 i think it was i'm sorry go ahead i'm sorry i interrupted you please please continue
00:44:28 if margin was particularly tight or something like that but yeah on grenfell to answer your question it was
00:44:35 it was one percent one percent of the total contract value to harley that's a one percent of the approximate 2.6 million pounds so been 26 000 pounds right so is it fair
00:44:47 been 26 000 pounds right so is it fair to say that you generally had a strong incentive to find and bring in potential subcontracts for harley
00:44:56 well i think i've had the same incentive whether it was commission based or salary based because i i'm still in the industry now um on a salary and i have the same incentive so that's never changed
00:45:09 incentive so that's never changed um i'd like to turn to the contract um which you describe in paragraph 12 of your statement can you please be shown that
00:45:19 har3010159 page 3 please
00:45:26 and paragraph 12
00:45:30 at the bottom of the page there you say as i've indicated above my involvement in the grenfell tower project was focused on the pre-contractual stage of harley's
00:45:42 pre-contractual stage of harley's involvement which lasted around 18 months
00:45:45 months i've had a number of emails shown to me which show that i was involved in the project between april 2013 and around april 2016. however my main role was in securing
00:45:56 however my main role was in securing harley's involvement in that project in the months leading up to the issuing of a letter of intent by ryden limited right and
00:46:01 right and once this had been done i handed over responsibility as the main point of contact
00:46:05 contact at harley to daniel ankita jones and robert maxwell
00:46:11 is it fair to say that your role was focused on obtaining and negotiating a subcontract with whoever got the main contractor role for the cladding work
00:46:22 cladding work on grenfell tower
00:46:26 that's correct sorry just a minute give us pause and say can we have mr harris back
00:46:34 can i just ask the technical people that as a rule
00:46:38 as a rule we want mr harris on the screen all the time unless he's actually being asked to look at a particular section of the document yes i think mr chairman the document that i'm asking him to look
00:46:49 the document that i'm asking him to look at he will need to speak to and may need to have on the screen in front of him and and us while he's giving his evidence so it may not be possible to remove the document
00:47:01 possible to remove the document immediately i've shown it i just want to check one thing before we go on mr harris you i think we'll have in front of you a written copy of your statement is that right
00:47:11 right that's correct yeah okay so just for mr millet's benefit uh he knows that you can read the relevant passage even if it's not on the screen
00:47:26 and i think it's important that we see you
00:47:29 you that's that's correct yeah i think it's important that we see you when you're actually
00:47:35 actually speaking to us and to the room at large and to those who are watching on other remote platforms now i don't know whether that affects the way you ask your question no it doesn't mr chairman
00:47:47 your question no it doesn't mr chairman so far his statement is concerned but when it comes to documents which aren't in front of him in paper forms we'll deal with those as we can very shortly i think um can i ask you to look at paragraph 10 of your statement
00:47:59 of your statement page three okay i'll have to put my glasses on to do that
00:48:18 there in the second line one route was to contact contractors and asked to be placed on their databases was harley on ryden's database yes
00:48:31 was harley on ryden's database yes do you remember when harley got on to ryden's database i don't but it must have been prior to the chalcott estate project um so at a guess
00:48:43 estate project um so at a guess i don't know if the early 2000s i could be specific um on an actual date now it's right to say that harley never received a final formal written contract from ryden for
00:48:55 formal written contract from ryden for their work in relation to the grenfell tower project isn't it that's correct yeah can i show you paragraph 27 of your statement at page six
00:49:10 now you say there and i'll again just wait so that can come up on the
00:49:20 screen for the public to see it
00:49:28 on the 25th of july 2014 i received an email from zach maynard of ryden which had a draft letter of intent loi attached to it for the instruction of harley
00:49:37 harley as the cladding subcontractors on the grenfell tower project that loi authorized 30 000 pounds of work in order to enable harley to commence the design phase now is it right that the loi you're
00:49:48 now is it right that the loi you're referring to is the draft undated letter of intent
00:49:52 of intent between ryden and harley which you received on the 25th of july 2014 i believe that's correct i'll show you the document it's har50120
00:50:16 is that the document uh yes it appears to be yeah thank you um can we then look at
00:50:26 ryd3013524 page one please one three five two four
00:50:34 this is an email
00:50:39 to you of the 25th of july 2014 you can see from zach maynard at ryden copy to simon lawrence and simon o'connor which attached the letter of intent and
00:50:50 intent and a series of appendices
00:50:56 that's when it came to you do you accept that
00:51:00 that yes yeah um now if i can show you paragraph 28 of your statement page seven
00:51:14 uh you say there on the
00:51:19 16th of september 2014 zack maynard sent harley a further email in which he effectively extended the loi to authorize the full scope of works quoted by harley in the end harley never received a
00:51:31 in the end harley never received a formal subcontract but proceeded to complete the work on the basis of the term set out in the loi
00:51:37 loi and is is is this the email uh at uh let me show it to you har401069
00:51:49 is that the email you're referring to uh yes it looks to be yeah i think it is yeah yes now you say that harley proceeded to complete the work on the basis of the term set out in
00:52:00 work on the basis of the term set out in the loi
00:52:01 the loi in your statement which i've just shown you is it fair to say therefore that in the absence of a written contract you understood the letter of intent
00:52:12 effectively to define harley's contractual responsibilities in relation to this subcontract yes can we look then at the letter of intent
00:52:22 intent and ask you to go back please to
00:52:30 har50120 uh if you go to page three first of all and then over to page four
00:52:43 at the bottom of page three you'll see that
00:52:47 that ryden say we would be grateful if you could acknowledge your acceptance of the terms set out in this contract by signing and returning the enclosed duplicate by return and you'll see that ryden sign it under
00:52:59 and you'll see that ryden sign it under the hand of simon lawrence there now we can't find any signed version of this document do you know whether this loi was in fact ever signed by
00:53:12 this loi was in fact ever signed by harley don't know it's the honest answer it wouldn't have been signed by me anyway um so it would have been signed by
00:53:22 signed by the managing director so i i honestly don't know it would have been signed by the managing director so is that ray bailey
00:53:36 i'm sorry was there an answer to that yes that's correct yes can you explain why there was never any
00:53:43 any any signed version no
00:53:48 now you say it paragraph 28 of your statement and i don't need to take you back to it that harley never received a formal subcontract but it looks from this document that harley did in fact receive a formal
00:54:00 harley did in fact receive a formal document
00:54:02 document signed by ryden but never signed it and sent it back is to to the best of your recollection is that correct well this i don't think the um the full contract ever arrived um
00:54:16 the full contract ever arrived um this was a letter of intent um and then obviously the email that followed um extending the value of the letter intent to the full contract value but the actual contract itself
00:54:28 actual contract itself and to my knowledge never arrived i would have to say that at that stage for harley having carried out two previous projects
00:54:39 having carried out two previous projects with ryden um there was an established relationship so we weren't too concerned at the time um because um under the letter of intent
00:54:50 um because um under the letter of intent work had started and um ryden were paying so i i think there was not a concern at that stage of having no contract in place or weird that we did chase
00:55:01 that we did chase chase them up for the contract and but they they never got it across to us so yeah we operated on a letter of intent which is not not the first time that happened that's that's happened lots of times right in
00:55:12 that's happened lots of times right in your last answer you said something which i'm afraid was inaudible in this room to all of us which you said you'd carried out two previous projects with ryden and there was a
00:55:21 was a something relationship can you just tell us what you said i think i said established established relationship thank you yes now
00:55:33 let's just trace through briefly what happened
00:55:37 happened in these negotiations um and i'll just pop some documents in front of you we'll we'll run through them first ryd3013679
00:55:48 first ryd3013679 one three six seven nine please uh this was an email uh under which you acknowledged receipt of the 25th of july letter of intent and you say here you'd read through everything and send a
00:55:59 read through everything and send a formal acknowledgement in due course and then if you go to ryd 30's 14231 please
00:56:11 this is an email of the 31st of july 2014 in which you send zach maynard at ryden
00:56:17 ryden uh a series of queries as you can see there so just looking at that um it looks like you did read through the documents and and understand them and come back to
00:56:29 and and understand them and come back to him um
00:56:30 him um i think the upshot at the end of that was that you were prepared to commit harley to starting the design phase without a formal contract being in place because of what you call the long-term or established trading relationship is
00:56:43 or established trading relationship is that correct yes now let's go to ryd3016422 16422
00:56:52 16422 this is an email exchange between you and zach maynard between the 22nd of the 27th of august it's a chain uh which starts at the bottom with the 31st of
00:57:03 bottom with the 31st of july email we've just looked at runs up through the 22nd of august comments below from zach maynard and then at the top of the next one up you ask him when the contracts will be
00:57:15 you ask him when the contracts will be documents will be ready uh and then zach maynard 22nd of august comments and then 27th of august all looks okay i've confirmed the same below in blue for the record when do you
00:57:26 record when do you think the contract docs will be ready for issue you see that uh and if you go to ryd3016429
00:57:38 16429 zack maynard comes back to you on the same day and says mark thanks we received our contract
00:57:49 we received our contract capital c yesterday and mr maynard told us that that was the main contract between ryden and the tmo so the letter of intent can be extended to your full order value i will get official documentation out to
00:58:01 i will get official documentation out to you shortly it appears you remain registered to self-billing on our system
00:58:06 etc is it right that as a result of that harley's design work thereafter proceeded yes i think it's right to say and you you've
00:58:17 i think it's right to say and you you've told us earlier this morning that you didn't in fact get the formal documentation that zach maynard promised um and therefore you sent a further email as we can see
00:58:27 can see uh on uh the 16th of september 2014
00:58:34 har401069
00:58:39 16th september from zach from you to zach maynard second email down you see that
00:58:48 see that uh and you say there um in order to maintain program we need to place special dyes and bar length material on order by the end of the week as we stand we only have authority for thirty thousand pounds of design
00:59:00 thousand pounds of design we will either need an increase in the value of the loi or the subcontract in place as soon as possible please the approximate value of metal and dies is 325 000 pounds and zach maynard replies saying
00:59:12 pounds and zach maynard replies saying please treat this email as official confirmation that the letter of intent has been increased to the full value of your appendix a ascertainment of lump sum price
00:59:20 price 2.6 odd million pounds um despite mr maynard's promise i think it's right and we've established that there was
00:59:27 there was no formal letter sent by ryden uh to be signed by harley and returned was there that's correct and i think there were discussions about this draft which we'll come back to but you never
00:59:38 which we'll come back to but you never actually signed any final formal contract
00:59:40 contract that's that's right
00:59:44 that's correct did harley routinely to your knowledge at the time routinely enter into three million pound odd or 2.6 million or pound contracts without signing a formal final written
00:59:55 without signing a formal final written contract
00:59:57 contract um no that was a rule i think there are jobs that
01:00:01 jobs that um have started under a letter of intent um there's an awful lot of industry press about letters of intent and are they actually worth the paper they're written on because the letter of intent
01:00:12 intent could in theory reflect the main contract terms and letters of intent over the years which are one-liners um and it really depends who you're dealing with and whether you have an
01:00:24 dealing with and whether you have an established relationship as to how far you go on trust um in the case of brighton
01:00:30 brighton we were comfortable because of the established relationship that i touched on earlier and we didn't see this as a concern is that why you didn't chase up a formal
01:00:41 that why you didn't chase up a formal signed contract executed by both ryden and harley well i think i think i had done and what this won't record obviously is these phone calls that have happened as well i i can't answer
01:00:53 have happened as well i i can't answer why ryden
01:00:54 why ryden didn't send it through maybe they were too busy i really don't know um but uh yeah i can't explain it right
01:01:05 just to push the point you never chased up a formal fight signed contract from ryden did you but other than the emails that exist and and um phone calls that you know i have no way so so far as
01:01:18 that you know i have no way so so far as harley was concerned as far as you were concerned were you happy to proceed on the basis that the terms of the loi as agreed in july and august between you and mr maynard represented the final form of
01:01:30 maynard represented the final form of contract on which on the basis of which harley was to provide its services yes um now let's just turn to the letter of intent itself
01:01:41 of intent itself ryd3013524
01:01:44 this was the scope of this was the letter of intent as amended later yeah uh and if we just go to that um there's the email it's clear
01:01:57 that um there's the email it's clear that there were some appendices as we've seen now the incorporation of those appendices wasn't changed by the amendments we later saw was it
01:02:08 i don't believe so and it looks as if no harley director or senior executive was involved in the negotiations it was left really to you and zach maynard isn't it
01:02:20 maynard isn't it yeah did you get harley board authority or ray bailey's authority even informally to conclude the loi on these terms i would have done yeah i mean harley as
01:02:32 i would have done yeah i mean harley as a business was not a large company so we were all in
01:02:38 in one office um so there were lots of um it's very easy to have verbal conversations um from desk to desk as it were um and i certainly would not have been um
01:02:51 i certainly would not have been um doing that without authority whose authority did you get just to sign off on the loi so far as you did
01:02:57 you did i would have been ray bailey right do you remember having a conversation with him about it or are you just assuming that that's the case doing the best you can yeah let's assume it did the best i can
01:03:08 yeah let's assume it did the best i can because you know there were conversations of that kind all the time
01:03:26 uh now can i ask you to look at har four zero five eight nine nine please
01:03:34 this is an email sent from you i think to simon
01:03:37 to simon lawrence at ryden on the 28th of july 2014.
01:03:43 uh which is the monday after the july letter of intent was sent in other words the orig the first version of that before the
01:03:54 version of that before the discussion about the amendments to it and you say we are starting to receive emails direct from bruce regarding detail
01:04:00 detail detailing and product selection etc i want to check with you to ensure that we operate correctly with regards to contractual etiquette whether this information should in fact be coming through ryden
01:04:11 be coming through ryden then you go on in the next paragraph but one and say obviously we have only just received the formal design order so until we hold an internal handover there is no harley designer officially appointed to the job hence we
01:04:22 officially appointed to the job hence we are in that in between stage for a couple of days we're we are intending holding a handover this week probably wednesday but i'll write and let you know he'll be leading the design side immediately following handover
01:04:34 side immediately following handover would it be normal for no harley designer
01:04:36 designer to have been appointed up until the contract was concluded yeah i mean there would be a design involvement
01:04:47 involvement you know often early stages but no designer officially appointed to the project um because we would not have been under instruction um so you know through the process
01:05:01 um so you know through the process of um the months before when there would have been
01:05:05 have been design things looked at it could have been any number of different designers are hardly looking at uh things that end given time but up to the point that you then you know become officially under contract
01:05:17 know become officially under contract at that point there will be a team officially appointed to the job and when were you do you think officially under contract um i think for me it would be that we
01:05:29 um i think for me it would be that we would start mobilizing from the point of view of getting the original letter of intent i see so so 25th july onwards
01:05:40 i see so so are you saying that from the 25th of july onwards uh design was effectively starting yes and that would mean that you need to
01:05:52 yes and that would mean that you need to have a designer involved yes who was the designer who was involved
01:05:58 involved from the 25th of july
01:06:03 i i think it was probably daniel but i can't remember specifically uh you could have been mark it could have been daniel probably one of those two i would think i see
01:06:13 i see do you remember whether there was a delay in getting a designer onto the job following the receipt of the first draft of the letter of intent on the 25th of july
01:06:29 can i ask you to go to i'm sorry your answer was got done as inaudible and i'm not sure i heard it but i i think i heard i'm not sure but i can't recall whether there was a deal you can't recall okay
01:06:41 you can't recall okay and can i ask you to look at ryd3013922 please
01:06:47 please we can see mr lawrence's response to this query and he says hi mark
01:06:54 this is the 28th of july uh hi mark as we've now done the deal we can get going i've told bruce that it's now okay to contact you direct about design
01:07:05 about design but i'm to be copied in i expect you to flag any design changes that i have sorry that have time and cost implications so we don't over design anything did you understand from this
01:07:16 anything did you understand from this email that you are able to discuss mata's design matters in particular with studio e
01:07:22 studio e provided you were keeping simon lawrence copied in
01:07:26 copied in yeah that's fairly standard protocol i think we always check those things out that we get the authority from the main contractor at the end of the day we are in contact with brighton and we
01:07:37 we are in contact with brighton and we would need their authority um there's a protocol with these things so prior to entering into dialogue with studio we were just
01:07:48 dialogue with studio we were just getting ryden's authority to do that and in light of what you told us this morning did the words that mr lawrence used as we've now done the deal indicate to you that so far as you and he were concerned
01:08:00 he were concerned harley were now under subcontractor ryden
01:08:03 ryden yes even though there were still amendments to be to be thrashed out yes yes um did you pass mr lawrence's instruction
01:08:14 instruction on to anybody else at harley namely they were all copied in
01:08:22 right uh well we can see uh that daniel that was copied in i assume that that's daniel anchoratel jones
01:08:35 daniel anchoratel jones at this stage of course kevin lam hadn't been appointed had he
01:08:40 it looks that yeah i think yeah i don't don't know when kevin came on board but yeah by the looks of that he wasn't involved at that stage do you remember whether daniel whether kevin lam
01:08:51 kevin lam was told that he had to keep simon lawrence copied in on any matters which he was discussing with studio e
01:08:59 studio e i wouldn't have been involved in that right um
01:09:03 right um when mr lawrence asks you to flag up any design changes that have time and cost implications did you understand that the reverse was also true in other words that you didn't need to
01:09:15 in other words that you didn't need to flag up any design changes that didn't have an implication in respect of time and cost
01:09:22 i'm sure i quite understand the question there
01:09:26 there well let me try it a different way and you're told by mr lawrence that to flag up any design changes that have time and cost implications did you understand from that that you
01:09:38 did you understand from that that you you only had to flag design changes that had time and cost implications as opposed to all design changes
01:09:46 yes now we can see uh that on the 31st of july you sent an email to simon lawrence at har405406
01:09:58 at har405406 please 5406.
01:10:06 and you can see there that um you say hi simon lead designer will be down anchored jones with brother sam coordinating in the drawing office we are yet to appoint a project manager
01:10:17 we are yet to appoint a project manager but rob will advise on this in due course
01:10:19 course now that we are officially underway i suggest that emails regarding the design phase are sent to dan but copied to rob and sam
01:10:26 and sam i will deal with commercial items with zach
01:10:29 zach uh so is it fair to say that the only thing
01:10:32 thing that were outstanding effectively were what you called the commercial items
01:10:39 yeah i mean commercial items that that i would deal with are typically um with my contractors over the years would typically be payment terms uh retentions um
01:10:51 payment terms uh retentions um liquidated damages um insurance details those sort of things that i would deal with
01:10:59 with yes and
01:11:03 yes and you say lead designer will be anchored down ankle jones was there or had there at that point been a meeting or discussion with dan and jones under which he was actually
01:11:12 actually appointed there must have been an internal meeting yeah were you present at it
01:11:19 at it i can't remember were you told about it um can i just show you what mr anchoral
01:11:30 um can i just show you what mr anchoral jones
01:11:30 jones says about that in his statement
01:11:36 har3010149 at page two please i want to show you paragraph 10
01:11:44 he says in respect of the grenfell project
01:11:47 project i was temporarily made lead highly contact for ryden the main contractor uh the main contractor at the end of
01:11:59 uh the main contractor at the end of july straight beginning of august 2014 this was because no one else was available ryden was told i was the project designer however this was only intended to reassure them whilst the project team
01:12:10 reassure them whilst the project team was pulled together my primary role is to appoint an external designer is i did not have the capacity
01:12:16 capacity to take on we can go over the page the project
01:12:20 project it was not unusual for harley to bring in external designers to work on projects
01:12:24 projects when there was not enough internal design resource and this happened on a number of projects
01:12:31 um is what mr daniel ankartal jones is saying there in his statement correct so far as your recollection is concerned i think that's basically correct yeah i think um
01:12:42 think um i'll get the answer short but in the industry in which we work um workload is always uncertain um we can never be sure of what we're
01:12:53 um we can never be sure of what we're going to
01:12:54 going to cure and that's the world we live in and because of that you can't just have designers
01:12:59 designers sat there um doing nothing so you have to use resource on where you have to use it
01:13:04 it and sometimes you know resource levels are not sufficient internally so in that in the case of grenfell kevin was brought on board but in terms
01:13:15 kevin was brought on board but in terms of
01:13:16 of how that was done who was doing it and that will all have been matters for other people um i wasn't involved in the design office
01:13:24 office um so i would have been involved in those decisions but yeah i think what daniel says is relatively correct uh
01:13:32 uh why didn't you tell simon lawrence that danny lanketle james was simply a stop gap
01:13:36 gap while you found an external designer i probably wasn't told that right
01:13:45 is it fair to say that the reason that you hadn't yet appointed a project manager
01:13:49 manager uh was that harley was still looking at how to resource the project appropriately yeah i'm sure that's correct yeah i mean again it wouldn't be to appoint anybody to the job at that
01:14:01 to appoint anybody to the job at that stage there was a contracts manager and that would have been for him to assess resource availability um so that would have been that situation there right then do you know what discussions
01:14:14 do you know what discussions regarding product specification uh were had between ryden and daniel anchored jones during this temporary period that he describes specifically no
01:14:29 that he describes specifically no is it fair to say that prior to the designer being appointed any discussions regarding product specifications were held by ryden with you and ray bailey rather
01:14:40 by ryden with you and ray bailey rather than
01:14:41 than with a harley person with design qualifications uh it would have been yeah it would have been the south ray uh the estimator at that stage
01:14:53 ray uh the estimator at that stage but if there were things that needed checking
01:14:56 checking um it would not have been unusual for the technical manager to also have an involvement um so yeah it would have been it would have been and of course the supply chain as well so it's it's
01:15:08 so it's it's multiple people involved in that process now i want to turn to a slightly different topic which is your initial involvement in the grand call tower project which goes back to
01:15:20 tower project which goes back to early in 2013. so some 18 months in time before what we've just been looking at mr harris can i take you first to paragraph 11 of
01:15:31 can i take you first to paragraph 11 of your witness statement please page three
01:15:46 and you say there in the second sentence the second or third line to the best of my recollection harley first became aware of the grenfell tower project when a fabricator called cgl systems limited
01:15:59 a fabricator called cgl systems limited cgl
01:16:00 cgl provided me with information about the project and about the possibility of being involved in the facade aspect of the project cgl had been a supplier to harley on previous projects therefore there was already an established relationship
01:16:12 established relationship and just just to be clear cgl i i think mr bailey told us uh during his evidence was a fabricator is that right that's correct and they
01:16:23 is that right that's correct and they fabricated rain screen uh materials or products for use on harley subcontracts they did i think i think originally cgl was composite gutters limited so i think
01:16:34 was composite gutters limited so i think originally that's where they started life but then developed their range of services over the years which then incorporated cladding products right so they weren't a manufacturer of sheet material as it were but they were
01:16:47 sheet material as it were but they were a fabricator and harley i can't remember the jobs but harley had certainly worked with cgl now can i look at that the emails which you're referring it's har four
01:16:58 you're referring it's har four zeros five three five two
01:17:09 uh this is an email from jason tisbury at cgl
01:17:12 at cgl of the 25th of april 2013 to undisclosed recipients this was at a very early stage in the grenfell tower project wasn't it yes um was this the
01:17:25 yes um was this the first time you had heard of the grenfell tower
01:17:29 tower believe that's correct yeah right um did cgl give you any further information beyond what we can see in this email i don't think so i mean it's it's quite
01:17:41 i don't think so i mean it's it's quite commonplace for um manufacturers or fabricators will be out in the marketplace themselves trying to create opportunity um so getting this sort of email is is
01:17:53 getting this sort of email is is is you know quite typical of what i um during any given week and it the manufacturer or fabricator
01:18:04 and it the manufacturer or fabricator will have done a little bit of work but then they're keen to pass it on to other people such as harley and for us to see whether we can develop it
01:18:14 so i think the answer is no cgl didn't give you any further information beyond what's in this email all right um can you please go to
01:18:24 sea407603
01:18:31 this is an email you sent to bruce sones of studio e later the same day 25th of april 2013. dear bruce following up on the contact from jason at cgl this is a quick email to confirm our interest in
01:18:43 a quick email to confirm our interest in the proposed overcladding scheme for grenfell tower overcladding tower blocks is very much what we do and specifically in london hence our keen interest in grenfell i've attached a small selection of tower
01:18:54 i've attached a small selection of tower block project info sheets and would welcome the opportunity of meeting up with you to talk through your requirements i look forward to hearing from you would it be normal in your experience for you to reach out to an architect in
01:19:06 for you to reach out to an architect in this way
01:19:08 this way yes and is it fair to say that you were drawing
01:19:12 drawing attention to harley's specialization as a cladding subcontractor on this project yes i don't think you've got a response to this email from mr sones until september
01:19:24 this email from mr sones until september 2013 did you i can't recall right um now we can see from this that you've attached a number of tower block project information sheets
01:19:34 sheets um those included a range of projects including the channel cuts estate can we just quickly turn up that it's sea 407605 please
01:19:56 uh do you recall that this was one of the one of the photographs or in pieces of information that you send yes um why did you include these images
01:20:07 yes um why did you include these images of or this image of previous projects uh to show examples of other tower block projects
01:20:14 projects that had been overplayed uh and i think you also included information sheets for clement's court hanslow
01:20:22 hanslow and castle main tower in wandsworth correct it's right i think that all three of those projects used acm rain screen panels didn't they
01:20:34 screen panels didn't they certainly did and certainly clemens corp did
01:20:38 did i have to hesitate on
01:20:43 the other project it was probably acm but
01:20:47 but i can't actually remember right and is that because harley had only done residential high rise over cladding projects using acm as rain screen material and not for example rip zinc or rock panel
01:21:00 for example rip zinc or rock panel uh harley predominantly used pcm there were four blocks done in croydon in a solid three millim solid three millimeter aluminium
01:21:11 millimeter aluminium cassette system and that's not acm um but i think all the others predominantly were acn
01:21:17 were acn right so not zinc not rock panel now we had used sync not on a tail block project
01:21:23 project but never used rock panel thank you can i ask you to go please to cep3049719
01:21:35 this is an email from deborah french let's see
01:21:39 let's see i'll wait a second until it comes up on the screen this is an email from deborah french of the 13th of may 2013 to neil wilson
01:21:50 to neil wilson jeff blades and roy fuster at cep forwarding a bbc report referring to acm in the uae and she attached a picture
01:22:03 in the uae and she attached a picture um i'll i'll show this to you she says as you may be aware there may sorry there had been some reports via bbc concerning a fire on a building in uae regarding acm
01:22:15 regarding acm as a business we are aware of this report and our technical team are following the details but in the meantime i wanted to add some thoughts that may help if you get questions from your customers clients etc regarding the supply of
01:22:28 clients etc regarding the supply of renault bond in the uk as you know we supply both pe and fr core
01:22:34 core and can control and understand what core is being used in all projects due to the controlled supply route we have by only supplying raynaud to a very small group of approved fabricators and working very closely
01:22:46 fabricators and working very closely with them
01:22:47 with them on all projects we are able to follow what type of project is being designed and developed and then offer the right renabon specification including the core at this stage we will
01:22:58 including the core at this stage we will continue to offer both pe and fr core and continue the close working relationship we have with our approved fabricators to make sure the right technical support raynor bond specification and materials are being used and
01:23:10 and materials are being used and installed on renamon projects many thanks for making me aware of the reports and for your continued support
01:23:18 support were you aware yourself at the time of high-rise fires in the uae involving acm no
01:23:29 involving acm no were you made aware of this email or the contents
01:23:32 contents of this email in any of your discussions with jeff blades or indeed anybody else at cep
01:23:38 at cep [Applause]
01:23:43 i'm sorry could you repeat that we didn't hear that absolutely not were you aware that the fire performance of acm
01:23:52 of acm would or might differ depending considerably depending on whether a pe or an fr core was used no were you aware that rayna bond acm could
01:24:05 were you aware that rayna bond acm could be supplied with either a pe or an fr core no no right i'll come back to that later on but you weren't
01:24:16 but you weren't aware did you ever become a did during the time of the project did you ever become aware that um rayno bond acm panels were available in either pe or fr yeah
01:24:33 it would follow from that i suppose that you would never or did never have any discussions with jeff blades of cep or deborah french at reyno bond about whether
01:24:42 whether a pe or fr core should be used on grenfell tower is that right that's correct
01:24:50 moving on in time in fact moving back in time can i show you zeros one har301s one six zero please
01:25:07 this is uh a document called the sales stroke tender progress report
01:25:19 and i think it's generated or was generated by you mr harris is that right correct uh date initiated 1st of march 2013 project name grenfell tower notting hill
01:25:33 project name grenfell tower notting hill london borough kensington and chelsea
01:25:37 uh and you put the architect's name in there as well studio e and can you describe the general purpose of this document
01:25:48 general purpose of this document yeah it's an internal uh document that i created
01:25:53 created for any project that we were pursuing so saved onto the harley server you would find i don't know two three four hundred of these um
01:26:04 two three four hundred of these um only a small amount end up being projects that you secure but there would be one of these for every project that we pursued whether one lost or otherwise and it's
01:26:16 whether one lost or otherwise and it's available to everybody to view and it's for one of a better word a diary of events um through they the sales pre-contract stage and just
01:26:27 the sales pre-contract stage and just my own notes for example it's an aid memoir in many ways so that if you've spoken
01:26:33 spoken with somebody and then a month later you're having another conversation i might just knock down some notes to remind me of what i said though it's very much a diary
01:26:41 diary a diary um so to summarize it does it represent a contemporaneous account of the discussions you were having as you had them yeah i mean i wouldn't say it's every
01:26:53 yeah i mean i wouldn't say it's every single conversation um i i was recording salient points so you know there may have may have been you know 100 other phone calls
01:27:04 you know 100 other phone calls um which would just quit the phone calls between myself and bryden supply chain which may not have been recorded um but the salient points would have been now we
01:27:15 salient points would have been now we can see that the date of creation or initiation was the first of march 2013 and if we go to page two we can see
01:27:25 the first entry on that date abi report found tower block refurb scheme very suitable for harley drawings have been downloaded from planning portal abi states the name of
01:27:37 planning portal abi states the name of the preferred contractor as leadbitter m-a-h that's you
01:27:42 you uh intro email sent to colin chiles project director at leadbitter so is it fair to say that in fact you became aware of this project
01:27:53 became aware of this project even prior even before being contacted by
01:27:56 by cgl in april as we saw that's correct so your evidence earlier that the first you heard of the project was when you got jason tisbury's email on the 25th of april
01:28:07 on the 25th of april 2013 is not correct is it
01:28:11 right so we have to correct that so the can we take it then that actually the first you heard of this project uh was um on the first of march um it says abi report found were you
01:28:24 um it says abi report found were you looking for this project at that date had you had you heard of it before then or or
01:28:31 or or all right if we go back to page i'm so sorry
01:28:36 sorry i would have been looking for projects generally um api is um it's project data um that you can buy any contractor
01:28:48 um that you can buy any contractor can buy project data um of projects that are
01:28:52 are um typically found in the planning offices all over the country and i would have been looking for typically tower block type schemes and then grenfell would have appeared i
01:29:03 and then grenfell would have appeared i see but how soon before the first of march would grenfell have appeared on your radar as it were or was it on the 1st of march on my radar it probably would have been the 1st of march that's my first note
01:29:16 the 1st of march that's my first note okay can you go back to page 1 and look at your initial assessment um towards the bottom of that page you say this is a firm harley lead what was it that gave you the impression
01:29:28 what was it that gave you the impression that this project even at that stage was a firm harley lead
01:29:34 lead because we'd found it if in fact i was incorrect earlier um with jason tisbury um which if he would have introduced it to us would have been a lead introduced to
01:29:45 us would have been a lead introduced to us
01:29:46 us by cgl but in this case clearly i'd found it myself so it was a harley lead rather than an external lead i see what you mean but you say firm
01:29:58 i see what you mean but you say firm harley lead what does that mean well it's just a word isn't it i mean you could remove that it's a harley lee i see so you found it rather than anybody else is that what you mean
01:30:08 you mean yes i see
01:30:15 you then go we can move on i think in the document to the 23rd of august 2013 page two please
01:30:31 uh and it says there after a gap of some four months uh oju notice appeared on abi update
01:30:42 uh oju notice appeared on abi update this project appears to be live again and has been advertised for tender mah email sent to jonathan roland's at ryden to ask if they are applying
01:30:53 what prompted you to ask ryden if they were applying because we'd worked with them on other town block projects they were very active in that market
01:31:04 active in that market and so i wanted to see whether they were interested in this um project as well and i guessed or assumed at the time that they would also be tracking it so does this tell
01:31:15 does this tell i see did you um send any messages to any other
01:31:20 any other uh potential main contractors to ask if they were applying don't recall doing that right so is that because ryden were
01:31:32 because ryden were a main contractor with whom you worked particularly closely historically yes
01:31:40 we then see shortly afterwards an entry date of the 12th of september
01:31:48 you see that mah email received from bruce sones at studio e architects in response to mah email back in april he advised that the scheme is due out to tendrid during november and he would appreciate assistance with
01:32:00 and he would appreciate assistance with material options costs and technical details this is integral to de-risking the project and i think we can see the email there it's sea
01:32:10 it's sea four zeros three seven 8375 please
01:32:18 it's in fact dated the 11th of november 2013. the day before you made your note of the tender report and he he tells you dear mark the
01:32:30 and he he tells you dear mark the grenfell project is moving again and i would like to arrange a meeting with you or someone from harley to discuss options costs and technical details this is integral to us de-risking the project which will be tended sometime in
01:32:42 project which will be tended sometime in november we're not the easiest place to get to so i'm happy to travel um there's a slight difference between the email and your note um he says options and your note says
01:32:54 um he says options and your note says material options um is that how you read his email that when he said options he meant options in respect of materials yes what did you understand mr sainz to mean
01:33:06 what did you understand mr sainz to mean by de-risking the project
01:33:10 i'm not sure
01:33:14 what information or assistance did you understand you would be required by mr sainz to give him in respect of options costs and technical details um these sort of meetings um are
01:33:26 um these sort of meetings um are quite typical um in fact i've had one pretty much identical in the last two days so these sort of things go on all the time where um because at this stage it hasn't gone out to tender
01:33:37 stage it hasn't gone out to tender there's no main contract involved um at this stage studio e would have been working for the client and the client will have presumably a cost planner somewhere and they're trying to
01:33:49 planner somewhere and they're trying to get to a situation where they want to work out what the options are what can be done um and they're after some guides really so contractors such as harley and
01:34:00 really so contractors such as harley and lots of others provide high level information is what i would call it at this stage budgetary advice
01:34:06 advice um and that typically is based on other things you've done historically because that's where it would come from yeah and your motive was it was to assist to try to put harley in as good a position as it could be for being
01:34:17 position as it could be for being appointed the cladding subcontractor by the main contractor when the tender came about yeah it's a foot in the door
01:34:27 and did you understand the studio he was seeking hardy's harley's specialist expertise and advice on these matters and would rely on harley's input
01:34:36 yeah i i didn't think for a second it would only be harley you know they would talk to other people but yeah we felt that was part of the process yeah now moving forward in time can we go to
01:34:47 now moving forward in time can we go to paragraph 14 of your statement please page four
01:34:55 and you say there power 14 page four having having been initially told about the grenfell tower project by cgl i think we have to correct that um our
01:35:08 i think we have to correct that um our first meeting with anyone formally involved in the project was in september 2013 when ray bailey and i met bruce soames and thomas wreck
01:35:16 wreck of studio e architects limited this was a fairly informal initial meeting at a restaurant in hayes galleria in london this was very early on in the planning and design process the project had not
01:35:27 and design process the project had not yet been put out to tender and planning approval had not been yet been obtained for studio e's designs although i believe that planning approval was obtained shortly thereafter did you discuss the strategy that you
01:35:41 did you discuss the strategy that you were going to adopt with ray bailey at the meet at the meeting with him beforehand i think so i think it was just one of many meetings we'd have attended
01:35:52 many meetings we'd have attended of that nature and at that stage it could have been
01:36:03 can we look at sca408692 please
01:36:16 this is an email from thomas wreck of studio e to you on the 25th of september 2013 forwarding a number of preliminary drawings in advance of the
01:36:28 preliminary drawings in advance of the meeting which took place two days later on the 27th of september do you remember what you did on receipt of these documents i don't but i imagine i would have
01:36:41 i don't but i imagine i would have circulated them internally and because it would be me assessing that type of information and so that could have been ray could have been uh the technical manager
01:36:52 manager probably the estimator so yeah i would have shared that information internally and the technical manager was who was that mark stapley no that would have been dan and katel jones oh i see daniel you say you think
01:37:03 jones oh i see daniel you say you think dan ankel jones would have seen these and the estimator that's that's mike albuston isn't it is that right it is that's correct yeah i can't swear that they sort of saw them
01:37:14 i can't swear that they sort of saw them but
01:37:15 but that's typically all right
01:37:18 do you remember therefore that everybody at harley
01:37:25 who was discussing or involved in this project at this time would have been aware that grenfell tower was a building over 18 meters in height yes
01:37:36 i want to turn then to the subject of the
01:37:39 the cladding particularly acm a paragraph 15 of your statement page four you
01:37:47 four you describe the hayes galleria meeting i just want to show you what you say there paragraph 15 page four you say the designs at that
01:37:59 page four you say the designs at that stage
01:37:59 stage were based on cladding grenfell tower in zinc and i believe studio e had already spoken
01:38:04 spoken to a number of suppliers of zinc cladding products however i believe that we had some discussion at that stage about choice of materials harley had worked on a number of other projects
01:38:15 projects where we had used other types of cladding materials including acm cladding
01:38:20 cladding acm is lightweight available in an extensive range of colors and can achieve an aesthetic finish often preferred by architects and clients
01:38:27 clients because it achieves a flat appearance when viewed from any angle i believe we showed bruce and thomas a harley brochure which contained examples of other projects harley had worked on many of which featured acm cladding i
01:38:39 many of which featured acm cladding i know both from the work harley had undertaken and from my general experience in the industry that acm was widely used and it had never been suggested that there were any safety issues in relation to using
01:38:49 to using acm products now who at the meeting initially introduced the idea of acm cladding as an option for granville tower
01:38:59 tower i honestly can't remember but we had with us a harley brochure and we were flicking through the pages and i my recollection is as we came
01:39:11 and i my recollection is as we came across different projects such as very appoint and so on um the question would then ask what did you clad those in though acm came up as part of the conversation
01:39:22 i see as part of that conversation did you discuss the the two different systems face fixed or cassette i can't remember whether we did but
01:39:34 i can't remember whether we did but quite possibly quite possibly now can i ask you to look at a art401487
01:39:43 this is an email of the 27th of september very shortly after that meeting
01:39:48 meeting from bruce zones to phil booth of artelia
01:39:52 artelia art 401
01:39:56 and others at the tmo
01:40:01 and he says we met with harley curtin wall this morning to discuss the project they are very keen and have been tracking the project for some time
01:40:13 tracking the project for some time they are specialists in this type of project they pointed to ferry a point as being very similar to grenfell although it's triple glazed and super insulated we've forwarded them sample details and the elevation measures
01:40:24 details and the elevation measures beforehand
01:40:30 and then at paragraphs one on two one he talks about your back of a packet budget based on the areas is around three million pounds
01:40:41 do you remember that discussion yes
01:40:48 and at paragraph two he says their recurring experience is the budgets forced clients to adopt the cheapest cladding option aluminium composite material acm face fixed
01:40:59 fixed we have offered to forward a more detailed takeoff so that they can provide a more accurate budget a zinc composite panel is also available which is cheaper to install than a cassette just just on what i've
01:41:10 than a cassette just just on what i've shown you so far does this email accord with your recollection of what was discussed at the meeting yeah i think i think so generally speaking
01:41:23 obviously we wouldn't know details of their budget having said that i mean he's referencing their stage d budget we wouldn't have had access to that information no i don't understand that uh was it your
01:41:36 i don't understand that uh was it your understanding well let me ask this what impression was given to you at the meeting in respect of the flexibility about the material choices at this stage
01:41:47 choices at this stage um i think we felt it it was as flexible as it ever is i mean when people are looking at options i mean we going through the harley
01:41:55 harley brochure and we we would have made it clear that as an envelope contractor um we we have installed many different things and
01:42:06 things and i think would have been in there terracotta solid aluminium all sorts of different things but more predominantly acm um but yeah as an envelope
01:42:17 acm um but yeah as an envelope contractor um we are there to provide a service and when we're asked a question what have you used we would have gone through all of those options as part of that discussion but
01:42:28 options as part of that discussion but equally
01:42:28 equally um we had used zinc in the past and if um
01:42:32 um they wanted us to use zinc on this job we would have used it did you express or did mr bailey express any preference for any type of product or any finish at this meeting
01:42:45 i think what we would have said is that we used acm on more tower blocks than anything else i think that's probably what we would have said
01:42:54 right mr sainz records you as saying as i've shown you their recurring experience is that budgets force clients to adopt the cheapest cladding option
01:43:05 cheapest cladding option aluminium composite material acm face fixed was that in fact your experience yes it still is now in 32 years of doing this job
01:43:15 this job i can't think of a job where budget is always an issue i just can't remember it's only two years but budget hasn't been
01:43:26 years but budget hasn't been an issue so when you say i can't think of a job where budget is always an issue i think you mean is never an issue yes you can't think of it yes you can't think of a job where budget is never an
01:43:38 think of a job where budget is never an issue
01:43:39 issue i understand um did you understand that studio e would have been relying on harley to present material options options for
01:43:50 to present material options options for materials
01:43:52 materials that were suitable for use on grenfell tower and only to do so and not to present you with options not to present them with options that were unsuitable for you so grenfell
01:44:03 unsuitable for you so grenfell yes being able to follow
01:44:09 at the time that acm was raised as an alternative option to zinc do you know what assessment had been done
01:44:17 done by you or by anyone else at harley to determine whether acm was a material choice for grenfell tower which complied with statutory requirements and industry guidance i think that would
01:44:29 and industry guidance i think that would have been based on an assumption really that because harley had worked on multiple other
01:44:37 other uh tower rock projects with acm cladding which would have been through a process of uh being assessed for suitable for those projects by all
01:44:48 for suitable for those projects by all stakeholders why would it be any different on grenfell tower so does it follow from that that there were no specific discussions between you and studio e at this meeting about
01:44:59 about whether acm cladding was suitable for a building of the height of grenfell tower
01:45:12 would you agree with me with with this proposition that of all the professionals working on the overcladding of grenfell tower harley were in the best position as a
01:45:23 harley were in the best position as a specialist cladding subcontractor to make an assessment of whether any of the materials used in the cladding system at grenfell were compliant with statutory requirements and industry guidance
01:45:35 requirements and industry guidance well i don't know the harley best place i think harley were one of a number of organizations that would have made that assessment not the manufacturer of the material
01:45:46 not the manufacturer of the material we're not the fabricator of the material not the designer of the facade so no that wouldn't just fall to harley but harley were well placed to do so nonetheless weren't they
01:45:58 nonetheless weren't they i think harley were well placed to give um advice based on past experience yes
01:46:06 based on based only on past experience or based on technical expertise i think on past experience and technical expertise
01:46:15 expertise learn from those past jobs do you remember whether there was any discussion at this hayes galleria meeting in respect
01:46:23 respect or about the material for the insulation
01:46:29 i don't recall it
01:46:32 can i just show you what mr sones says about that first of all sea 3014273
01:46:44 sea 3014273 paragraph 271 of mr same's inquiry witness statement
01:47:00 it's a page one one four and he says there
01:47:11 when i met harley
01:47:15 i had i believe i had a lingering uncertainty about pir because this was a high-rise and i had not been involved in a high rise before i believe but i cannot say for sure that i asked ray bailey a question about the
01:47:26 i asked ray bailey a question about the acceptability of using rigid foam insulation on a high-rise building probably at the end of the meeting if i did i don't recall he provided a definitive response
01:47:37 definitive response do you recall mr sones raising this query at this meeting
01:47:44 now mr sainz was asked about this in his examination by miss grange qc uh on day 20. i just want to show you
01:47:56 uh on day 20. i just want to show you the transcript of that that's day 20 page 47 please
01:48:34 yes thank you and on page 47
01:48:42 i think we're on page 27 we need page 47 that's it lines 3 to 15 we can see the question and the answer
01:48:55 and mr sones said i believed i asked him about the acceptability of using a rigid foam and i might not have mentioned it with cellotex we did discuss
01:49:06 cellotex we did discuss insulation in the round because we discussed the assembly of the facade the sequence
01:49:11 sequence how it would all be supported so in a general sense we did discuss insulation on reflection i believe one of the reasons i might have been prompted to ask
01:49:18 ask not just any kind of lingering uncertainty but i think we were shown several pictures of the very eight point tower
01:49:23 tower under construction of those in progress construction you could quite clearly see where the insulation was mineral wool and then he says at line 17 that's in
01:49:34 and then he says at line 17 that's in hindsight
01:49:36 hindsight now do you recall mr sands asking about the acceptability of using a rigid foam insulation on high-rise buildings
01:49:48 did you show mr saint's pictures of the ferrier point tower under construction i may have done it wouldn't have been unusual for me to have done something like that
01:49:57 like that do you remember what mr sanes was told about the ferrier point project at that
01:50:08 meeting can i ask you to look at sea403497
01:50:20 three four nine seven sea four zeros three four nine seven
01:50:32 do you remember whether you showed mr reckon mr sands this picture at that meeting i don't recall showing it to them but as i said
01:50:43 it to them but as i said it wouldn't have been unusual for me to have done something like that so i may well have done but i can't specifically remember would you agree with me that it's clear from that that these images show there's
01:50:54 from that that these images show there's mineral
01:50:54 mineral wool insulation being applied to the building
01:50:57 building it appears to be yeah yes it's clear from that isn't it you think i think so yeah yeah that doesn't prompt any recollection that you had a discussion about whether the insulation to be used
01:51:08 the insulation to be used should be mineral wool or rigid foam no sir no it doesn't right
01:51:23 mr chairman i think that's probably an appropriate moment to take the morning break
01:51:27 break yes very well thank you um well as i said mr harris we're going to have a break
01:51:33 break during the morning we'll take it now i think we'll take just over 15 minutes so i'm going to ask you to be ready to resume at 20 to 12 please and it's very important that
01:51:46 please and it's very important that i say this to you that you should not discuss your evidence or any aspect of the matters which you're being questioned about while we're in the course of the break is that right
01:51:58 all right so we'll look forward to seeing you again at 20 to 12. okay good thank you very much
02:11:36 uh all right hello again mr harris hello sir yes you're ready to carry on yes good thank you very much thank you yes yes mr chairman thank you mr mr
02:11:48 yes yes mr chairman thank you mr mr harris can i get back to an answer you gave earlier this morning which is at page 45 of the transcript where i asked you whether
02:12:01 where i asked you whether of all the professionals working on the over-cladding of the grenfell of grenfell tower harley were in the best position
02:12:07 position as a specialist cladding subcontractor to make an assessment of whether the materials used in the cladding system were compliant and you said
02:12:15 said in your answer that harley were not the manufacturer of the material well not the fabricator of the material and we're not the designer of the facade now when you say you were not the
02:12:26 now when you say you were not the designer of the facade that's not right is it harley was the designer of the facade that was one of the
02:12:32 the uh um services that it was providing within its scope of work provided under the loi
02:12:37 the loi wasn't it yeah ali's design works are limited
02:12:42 limited to um once a decision has been made on a material that's specified any facade contractor their responsibility is to make those components fit the building so they're not
02:12:55 fit the building so they're not designing
02:12:57 designing of the visual look of the building and it's a matter of making those um components um fit the building but do you ask do you i'm so sorry i
02:13:09 but do you ask do you i'm so sorry i interrupted you no that was it really right but do you accept uh
02:13:14 accept uh that as part of its contractual obligations in providing its services harley
02:13:21 harley was contracted in to design the facade that was part of its contract
02:13:28 it was part of the contract but but yes but it that that sounds like a blanket statement
02:13:33 statement um it's specifically designing um it's limited um taking the specified materials
02:13:44 taking the specified materials getting them to fit on the building because obviously at that stage there's a building sat there that needs cladding and you have to clad it with materials that have been selected
02:13:56 have been selected so there has to be um the associated design to make that fit make it work and that's that would be the hardest part can you and i agree perhaps this far
02:14:08 can you and i agree perhaps this far that when we when one needs to understand what the scope
02:14:12 scope of harley's design obligations was we we can tell that by looking at the letter of intent and the related documents yes
02:14:24 and the related documents yes yes yes um now can i go back then to the email we were looking at earlier
02:14:34 earlier har405992 page one
02:14:47 i know uh
02:14:52 this is an email sent by bruce saynes that we saw earlier after the 27th of september meeting
02:15:02 and he says to you dear mark ray thank you very much for the conversation this morning it was very useful and i'm especially grateful you could come into london we will follow up early
02:15:14 come into london we will follow up early next week with a quantity take-off from our model
02:15:17 our model i've communicated your quotes back of a packet quotes figure to the q s and it is over budget which is to be expected but some firmer budgets will help focus everyone's minds just pausing there in the email what did
02:15:28 just pausing there in the email what did you understand him to mean by focus everyone's minds
02:15:34 i assume he means focus everyone's mind on the budget yes were you concerned at that stage that your estimated costs appear to be too high
02:15:45 too high no because it was high level budget when you gave the quote of approximately three million pounds as we saw in the earlier email
02:15:56 earlier email did that include the estimated costs of designing procuring and installing the whole facade yes does that in parliaments equate to an on-the-wall
02:16:09 in parliaments equate to an on-the-wall price
02:16:10 price yes right now he goes on to say we're looking seriously at ned zink's composite panel the small sample we have in the office looks like a leuco bond
02:16:21 looks like a leuco bond but is apparently zinc
02:16:24 is it fair to say that initially the architect's preference was for a zinc cladding product yes did you express any concerns to mr sims that it would be challenging to provide
02:16:35 provide zinc within the budget that he was indicating probably not at that stage right now after that meeting uh on the 4th of october 2013 we can see
02:16:47 uh on the 4th of october 2013 we can see that studio e requested information and costings from for from a ned zinc product can we look at
02:16:54 at har four zeros five four six one please
02:16:59 five four six one and he comes to you and says
02:17:03 and says uh mark the takeoff from revit has proven less than straight forward um and then in the third paragraph the client's response to your budget was what about aluminium we haven't had
02:17:14 what about aluminium we haven't had samples or cost back from nedzing but this could be ideal if it eliminates the need for fabricated trays and is true zinc and then he gives you the ned zinc uh link we are looking at ali planks trays
02:17:27 link we are looking at ali planks trays to the lower four floors to achieve the color gradation would it be possible to come back with the budget cut with budget costs or would the material cost uplift what would the material cost uplift be
02:17:38 what would the material cost uplift be for a nova composite versus a metallic fosink rainer bond panel now i want to focus on the nedsync request what efforts did you go to to obtain pricing for the ned zinc product that mr sainz
02:17:51 for the ned zinc product that mr sainz had asked for i believe we emailed or spoke and emailed
02:17:57 emailed the manufacturer to try and obtain uh prices for the product can you go to har405997
02:18:11 can you go to har405997 this is an email from you to bruce sones dated the 18th of october 2018. copy to ray bailey you attach a
02:18:22 copy to ray bailey you attach a budget the 18th of october harley budget costs submitted external cladding pdf no we'll come back to that high bruce apologies for the delayed response
02:18:35 apologies for the delayed response we've put a budget spreadsheet together which is based on using the rayno bond natural zinc product fabricated into cassettes as a starting point
02:18:44 see that we've included and are you going to say we've included three other options on bottom of the attached spreadsheet showing the effect on the overall budget if we were to consider face fixed
02:18:55 if we were to consider face fixed natural zinc and then going to a standard aluminium acm in both cassette and face fixed
02:19:03 and then you go on to say the most expensive option is obviously the natural zinc cassettes if standard acn was to be considered in a zinc color face fix the saving could potentially be over 500 000 pounds now the
02:19:15 500 000 pounds now the the budget included i think four options for savings didn't it yes you didn't include pricing for the ned zinc nova composite product that the
02:19:26 zinc nova composite product that the architects had requested did you no i think my recollection is that we were struggling to get prices um at the time um i know eventually we did because our
02:19:38 um i know eventually we did because our tender was a eventually based on that product right but
02:19:42 but they were a bit slow in the early stages i see
02:19:46 i see um you say you were struggling to get prices
02:19:49 prices you go on to say as i've shown you the most expensive option is zinc and then in the last paragraph you go on to say as said when we met we have a number of examples of high-rise residential blocks in london
02:20:00 high-rise residential blocks in london where standard aluminium face fixed acm was used we can forward some photo images or arrange site visit as and when required
02:20:07 required why did you volunteer these savings um before being invited to provide them as part of an overall budget that's a fairly standard thing to do
02:20:18 that's a fairly standard thing to do this is when people are just looking at all possible options we want to be helpful why did you highlight the fact that the standard acm panel face fix provided a potential saving of over 500 thousand pounds
02:20:31 saving of over 500 thousand pounds just just doing the job at the time just just saying what the options were and you as you can see also highlighted the fact that harley had a number of high-rise residential
02:20:42 had a number of high-rise residential buildings in london which had used acm and offered to provide photographs and site visits looking at this email in the round mr harris is it fair to say that you are actually pushing
02:20:53 actually pushing reyno bond acm or at least acm pretty hard
02:20:58 hard yeah i think we were as you have to remember this is pre fire um at grenfell so at that stage from harley's point of view having
02:21:09 from harley's point of view having successfully completed multiple projects with this same product as far as we were concerned it was a good product for that application as of course hundreds of others did all
02:21:21 as of course hundreds of others did all over the uk and throughout the world so we weren't sitting there thinking anything but this is a really good product for this application and it may prove a good solution for grantal tower
02:21:32 solution for grantal tower is the answer to my question yes that you were pushing reyno bond acm or at least acm
02:21:37 least acm pretty hard no i think we were advising of acm as an option all right now let's look at the budget you attach to the email it's sca402275
02:21:52 2275
02:22:00 was it you who drew this up it was more likely to have been the estimator i believe what mike albiston yes that's correct okay um
02:22:15 it's more likely to have been him so i couldn't absolutely categorically say it wasn't me but looking at that document that's more likely to have been here okay did you have any discussions with
02:22:26 okay did you have any discussions with mike albiston or any input into its creation
02:22:30 i'm sure there were discussions yeah did you see this document before it went to bruce sayings uh i'm sure i would have done
02:22:43 you can see that although it refers to insulation in in i think three places here this document doesn't specify what
02:22:55 this document doesn't specify what product is to be used but you've got prices for them
02:23:01 yeah i think in terms of insulation sorry
02:23:05 sorry can i just ask the question what was the insulation product on which you based those prices that would have probably have been a generic um cost because a lot of insulations are
02:23:17 um cost because a lot of insulations are very similar in terms of cost and at that stage it was we are we were a high level budget stage and so it didn't need to be any more specific than that
02:23:28 specific than that can you help me when you look at the third item down rayna bond zinc rain screen spandrel cladding and insulation with a total net cost of 573 or thousand
02:23:39 with a total net cost of 573 or thousand pounds
02:23:39 pounds how much of that would have been the insulation at that stage i would say insulation was probably
02:23:48 probably anywhere between about i don't know 15 20 pounds a square meter something like that so it was a minor component
02:23:55 component i see so so you do i take from that answer that you you added a ballpark generic figure based not on a particular product but just on your experience of uh insulation products generally correct
02:24:08 uh insulation products generally correct yeah i i am in by generic were you including or excluding pir products wasn't including anything it was just a generic cost right
02:24:20 generic cost right um on the final page last page of the document page three please we can see that there are three alternative options for cladding
02:24:32 three alternative options for cladding planning meaning rain screen there i think
02:24:35 think and the savings that you would set out
02:24:40 uh it it's right isn't it that as we can see each
02:24:44 see each of those is rayno bond yes why were you only proposing raino bond rain screen products rather than any other acm cladding brands
02:24:55 other acm cladding brands it it could have been equally other acn brands in there um i think uh from a harley point of view
02:25:02 view we'd had a stronger and more established relationship with the guys on the renault bond side so we based it on renault bond but it could have been something else what what
02:25:13 could have been something else what what else could it have been it could also be a luca bond they were the main
02:25:18 the main two historically it's really been those two
02:25:22 two nowadays there are many more bonds on the market but historically with the the strong brands were a little bonded renault bond why did you not put
02:25:32 not put a luco bond prices in as well so that mr sands could see the full choice probably would have been much different in cost well that would have been a matter for him to decide wouldn't it
02:25:44 matter for him to decide wouldn't it maybe maybe so why didn't you put a luca bond options there as well as rene bond
02:25:52 rene bond no good reason yes there's some options are on the table it's up to the client to come back and ask us if they want something outside of that
02:26:01 that we table something and then it's for them to consider it and say whether they like what we've tabled or they want more options because otherwise we could have 50 options was it your aim
02:26:14 50 options was it your aim to get reyno bond acm included in the nbs specification for this project
02:26:22 project as one of the rain screen options no that wasn't for us that wasn't for air it wasn't a decision for us
02:26:34 air it wasn't a decision for us does it follow from what you're saying at least this much that your strong preference for this project was reno bond
02:26:42 bond acm cladding which is why it appears as the only
02:26:45 the only option as an alternative to zinc in this budget
02:26:50 budget no i think harley had proved over the years that it had used multiple products inc products including a luca bond so this was as it says at the top option
02:27:02 so this was as it says at the top option and if another option had been chosen then that would be fine also
02:27:09 you were the one providing the options to studio e if you weren't pushing reyno bond acm why not put aluco bond in there and get them to choose
02:27:21 them to choose well we could have done but we didn't and i'm suggesting to you that the reason you didn't was because your strong preference was for rayner bond to the exclusion of any other product don't agree with that because this is a
02:27:32 don't agree with that because this is a budget stage and we were just offering some options at budget stage and this develops from that where people then
02:27:41 then come back and ask different questions as they did
02:27:45 they did throughout this process can you explain how you arrived at these prices or these savings on these three rayna bond products i believe that was based on historic
02:27:59 i believe that was based on historic cost data because the company had used renault bond on multiple projects it had cost data available so it was we didn't need to go and talk necessarily do
02:28:11 necessarily do external sources to be able to put these early budget figures together did you in fact talk to alcoa who make reyno bond or made reyno bond to get these specific prices
02:28:23 to get these specific prices yeah there was dialogue with alcoa through this process because the architect
02:28:28 architect started looking at different his focus um through this whole process was appearance and color and so on and so forth which is why we ended up with a um
02:28:42 did you in fact get these specific prices from alcoa at the time or were you were you relying on your historic knowledge of these prices
02:28:52 prices i can't honestly remember it was probably could have been summoned some um but typically we would rely on
02:28:59 rely on uh historic data unless we didn't have that data then we would have more for guidance let's move on with the story we can see mr jones's response
02:29:10 story we can see mr jones's response to this document at har40607 please 6007.
02:29:22 please 6007. and uh he comes back to you same day second email down if we can just look at that
02:29:32 mark thank you for the spreadsheet very useful indeed and he then says the render on natural zinc is vm zinc quartz which we discussed i don't think it's an option
02:29:44 think it's an option could you give an indication the premium we would have to pay for the nedsync data sheet attached versus a standard acm i'm worried your standard is white and entirely unfeasible
02:29:57 is white and entirely unfeasible receive we received the following guidance from paul cousins at sig zinc and copper and then he cuts and pastes
02:30:03 pastes that into the email and you can see the prices for proteus ned zinc ned zinc nova composite and nedzig interlocking the face fix solution would be acceptable so i hope we will be at the
02:30:14 acceptable so i hope we will be at the low end
02:30:15 low end 90 pounds per square meter
02:30:20 don't need the rest of that email
02:30:26 we can see your response later the same day at the top of the page please
02:30:35 uh hi bruce i've spoken to paul and the reason he's applied such a wide price band is because he doesn't know panels sizes configurations or joint sizes i believe he is meeting
02:30:48 or joint sizes i believe he is meeting next week etc and then halfway down the email you say if i was to take worst's case scenario and feed 150 pounds per square meter panel cost into
02:31:01 pounds per square meter panel cost into our spreadsheet the overall on the wall rate for ned sync would certainly be higher than the rain upon natural zinc however i would prefer to get more accurate rates from paul before committing ourselves
02:31:13 uh from [Music]
02:31:16 [Music] to actual budget costs we can hopefully do that next week assuming paul provides the information is it fair to say that you are again promoting rayner bond products as more appropriate than others
02:31:27 appropriate than others this time by reference to budget no
02:31:36 you don't accept that yeah well can i ask you then to look at har h.a.r.405996 please
02:31:52 this is an email to to from you to ray bailey
02:31:58 at the top of the page fyi 25th of october
02:32:02 october 2013. and you say there it looks like our old mates studio we are now referring all manufacturers to arsenal and grenfell can't be bad might need to get rebecca
02:32:14 can't be bad might need to get rebecca to knock up a sketchup model before too long
02:32:18 long is it fair to say that in forwarding inquiries from cladding manufacturers directly to harley studio e where we're letting you take the lead on the selection of materials on this project
02:32:29 project they were happy for us to assist them yes because at that stage it's free advice
02:32:35 advice so happy for you to assist them uh is a bit of an understatement you were essentially taking the lead in assisting them or advising them on
02:32:46 in assisting them or advising them on what
02:32:46 what products were suitable for the project we were responding to requests
02:32:55 now you i think as we've seen were tasked with obtaining quotes from a range of cladding manufacturers one of which was kme that's right isn't
02:33:06 one of which was kme that's right isn't it
02:33:07 it correct and they kme were the manufacturers of the zinc proteus panel that's right that's right isn't it
02:33:14 isn't it can i ask you to look at sig 50233 please
02:33:24 this is an email of the 25th of october 2013 from sig or sig to studio e uh and uh it's to thomas wreck from simon
02:33:37 uh it's to thomas wreck from simon walker
02:33:38 walker uh where we can see uh that as he says thomas matthew irving of km eas has made contact with mark and will provide budgets to harley next week
02:33:49 week um i think you're the mark in that email aren't you uh it looks that looks correct yeah yes uh and then if
02:34:00 uh and then if if we
02:34:09 uh yes and uh
02:34:13 yeah the question is what what efforts did you go to to price um the proteus panel
02:34:21 um i can't remember at that stage but obviously eventually we that was the basis of our uh first tender to all the main contractors so there
02:34:30 there is one amount of dialogue with these people
02:34:34 people if you go to sca409658 please
02:34:42 this is an email from you nine six five eight s i g three four zeros
02:34:49 zeros sorry s e i'm so sorry sea four zeros nine six five eight we can see uh in this email chain uh let's just go to the bottom of it
02:35:02 and work our way up from the bottom we can see that uh
02:35:13 can see that uh on the 1st of november mark you you mark harris send an email to studio e if we can look at
02:35:24 studio e if we can look at the the bottom of that email chain the whole chain
02:35:29 so i think in fact extends to page three
02:35:39 right actually we need to go further back in time and i'm sorry about that um so so we can see how this this this rolls through um that's page five we go up the email change page four
02:35:54 change page four uh studio
02:35:58 uh studio yeah studio e it seems you're in touch with
02:36:02 with simon walker at sig about zinc
02:36:06 and then if you go up to the next email up
02:36:16 uh he says to simon walker afternoon simon
02:36:19 simon with regards to the new rain screen cladding we are liaising with mark harris from harley your envelope installers you can find his details below and you're copied in on that and then
02:36:30 and you're copied in on that and then the next one up you go back to him 25th of october many thanks for keeping me in the loop and then thomas wreck on the 29th of october sends you an
02:36:42 on the 29th of october sends you an email about zinc cladding you see that i don't think i need the detail of that but and he asks at the end btw have you heard from sig about the prices you see that
02:36:55 about the prices you see that yes and then moving moving uh on in time if we move up to page two
02:37:03 uh we can see an email from you to thomas record the first of november please see an extract below the email received from cgl regardless we don't need that and then you then there's a
02:37:14 need that and then you then there's a different type you say we've recently supplied zinc wall plank to tesco in woolwich at ground level uh and successfully gained the robustness needed zinc is a soft material it will
02:37:27 needed zinc is a soft material it will always suffer if vandalism occurs however due to its natural patternation properties scuffs etcetera will generally fade over time dense however would mean replacement of panels and then thomas wreck comes back to you
02:37:39 and then thomas wreck comes back to you first of november and says hi mark thank you for this yes please ask them about aluminium panels rather than zinc i spoke to simon walker of sig he will speak to matt irving did you catch up with matt
02:37:50 with matt and that's at 11 32 and then you the next email up
02:37:57 you say to him thomas i sent matt an email 30 minutes ago chasing up progress i'll keep you posted you see that yes
02:38:09 you see that yes and if we just move up the chain please
02:38:16 uh we've got the chain please um he this is now the fourth of november
02:38:25 uh where thomas wreck comes to you and says morning mark any luck with contacting matt irving thanks regards thomas and you go back to him
02:38:33 him same day in the evening 1716. hi thomas no joy on the kme front i've called the head office number his mobile and emailed him all with zero success kme clearly don't want the business
02:38:46 and then thomas rector bruce says bruce as you said see below you don't need that i've shown you that email chain we can see from it that you um told thomas wreck
02:38:57 thomas wreck on the 4th of november that you chased kme on the 1st of november and the 4th of november and you say you called his office mobile and emailed him with no success and then made a conclusion that kme clearly don't
02:39:08 made a conclusion that kme clearly don't want the business
02:39:12 and let me just show you in an interim a a document at sig
02:39:22 50246 this shows that you had chased matt the email you said you'd sent on the 1st of november it's the second
02:39:34 on the 1st of november it's the second email
02:39:34 email down on that page at 1101 on that day hi matt any news on the budget price for grenfell tower and then on the 7th of november matt
02:39:45 and then on the 7th of november matt irvin responds to your chaser email of the 1st of november providing budgets for proteus mark budgets below for proteus hr composite honeycomb panels only
02:39:56 composite honeycomb panels only only attaches the preliminary guidance notes and gives a price of 115 pounds per square meter x works panels only you see that
02:40:06 and he says i will call you today to run through the general details
02:40:17 can we then turn on to har3010172 please at page three
02:40:28 this is an email from you to thomas wreck
02:40:31 wreck of the 7th of november same day i'm sorry an email to bruce sowns
02:40:40 sowns the 7th of november
02:40:46 and you um say a response has good morning thomas uh it's actually addressed to both of them clearly and a response has been received
02:40:57 clearly and a response has been received at last from kme although i'm not sure it tells us a great deal all that's been provided is a base square meter rate for paneling the exworks that must have taken all of 10
02:41:08 exworks that must have taken all of 10 minutes to think about so quite why it's taken them two weeks to provide it as a mystery to me you're just pausing there would it be usual for the manufacturers of a panel to include a quote for more than the
02:41:20 to include a quote for more than the panels themselves
02:41:23 now i think what i'm referring to there is that they've obviously just taken a taken a rate that they could have
02:41:30 have probably provided in half an hour um if they would have taken two weeks you would have kind of suspected a bit more detail
02:41:37 detail um they obviously have provided that detail
02:41:41 detail i can't sorry i'm what else other than a pricex works would you expect a manufacturer to provide
02:41:50 provide well i wouldn't expect vx works for a staff because we would we would never be um going up there to pick the materials up you'd want them delivered
02:41:58 delivered and if it would have provided or they would have had details of um elevation drawings so you'd have expected a bit more thought because any panel manufacturer would be looking at and
02:42:10 looking at and typically wasted is one of the big things is they'll have sheet material out which have to produce panels so there'd be a wastage factor and they obviously hadn't considered any of those things or certainly that's how it
02:42:21 it it appeared why were you surprised to receive a price which was uh x works given that that is the price even though
02:42:32 given that that is the price even though it may include the matters you you're referring to that was being quoted i don't think i've ever seen a pricex works um
02:42:41 works um he's got to get to site somehow we would never be picking it up so i don't know why
02:42:45 why anyone would quote x words
02:42:51 in fact isn't it fair to say that kme actually provided rather more information than simply a price for the proteus panel
02:42:58 panel um they'd included fairly detailed information in the attachment and it offered to follow up with a call hadn't they
02:43:05 they yeah i think they had yeah now we don't see you forwarding on the email from mr irving matt irving itself to studio e that's right isn't it
02:43:19 itself to studio e that's right isn't it if that's what it is that's what it is yeah why didn't you do that [Applause] you you didn't tell studio e what the rate provided by kme actually was for
02:43:30 rate provided by kme actually was for this product did you well i wouldn't tell them the rate from kme because they wouldn't be paying that rate
02:43:37 rate that would be hardly paying that rate onto which there will be a cost build up of lots of other elements you give an on-the-wall price though it's pointless giving somebody a price just for material and you didn't
02:43:50 a price just for material and you didn't provide studio e with the attachments to the email either did you
02:43:55 did you no idea if that's what it is that's what it is yeah
02:44:00 you go on to explain in your email all i've been able to do with this extremely limited information is to take a best guess at wastage transport and support rail costs in
02:44:11 transport and support rail costs in addition to design and installation and input into our spreadsheet to give an end figure on the wall and the result was proteus hr composite and we can see the price 282 pounds per square meter
02:44:26 282 pounds per square meter now we've already seen that the price for the proteus panel x works that mr irving was quoting you was 115 pounds per square meter
02:44:37 but here we see you providing an on-the-wall price in other words an all in all inclusive price to mr wreck studio e of 282 pounds per square meter that's more than
02:44:48 pounds per square meter that's more than double the rate that kme had given you isn't it well how did you reach that price well on top of his price for panels there
02:44:59 on top of his price for panels there would have to be the sub structure behind it um insulation installation um project management and overhead and profit but there'd be a
02:45:11 and overhead and profit but there'd be a whole cost buildup to go behind that or after that rather and is it fair to say that you didn't provide studio aoe with those calculations and assumptions in reaching that gross price absolutely not and just help us why that
02:45:25 absolutely not and just help us why that is
02:45:27 is that's our business not this
02:45:35 so you you put a build up on an ex works price of 115 pounds per square meter and get to 282 pounds per square meter as it says
02:45:47 282 pounds per square meter as it says more than double
02:45:51 yes presumably is this right that you would apply the same factor if that's the right word or multiplier to any exworks
02:46:03 to any exworks price for a panel that you were quoted by a manufacturer generally speaking that's correct yeah right
02:46:12 is it fair to say that the price per square meter that you were providing compared
02:46:17 compared unfavorably with the renault bond product or renault bond quote yes
02:46:26 was that deliberate
02:46:30 on whose part well let me ask a different way why oh how in what respect did the price per square meter compare unfavorably with the renault pond
02:46:41 unfavorably with the renault pond product
02:46:43 product well the renault material is uh much less than the kme material but on what you told us you would still expect it at the on the wall price to be more
02:46:54 it at the on the wall price to be more than double the quoted price by rayna bond wouldn't you
02:47:01 then you go on in the email
02:47:05 if we're still if it's still on the screen i have to say from a highly selfish point of view our preference would be to use acm it's tried and tested on many harley projects and we are confident in the cost
02:47:16 cost base that said we are of course an envelope contractor and would be happy to clad the building in the material of choice is it fair to say that you were trying to put studio e off kme
02:47:28 to put studio e off kme and the proteus hr option not at all we would have been delighted to have used proteus hr because it was a much higher value there was no interest to harley
02:47:39 was no interest to harley in pushing the cost down that was driven by the client's budget not harley i comments on the end but
02:47:48 but perhaps a poor choice of words saying a highly
02:47:52 highly selfish point of view but i was alluding to the fact there that harley had great experience using acn and liked using the product so just help us
02:48:03 us from a highly selfish point of view you say your preference would be to use acm what what drove that preference
02:48:12 previous jobs where we you go through an awful lot of these exercises and end up at the same place because
02:48:19 because um clients never have the budget and acm always proved to be um a good product a good price and solved a
02:48:30 a good price and solved a whole raft of issues for these types of jobs
02:48:33 jobs um so it was just you know um from a point of view of harley and it it had used that product on multiple projects and been through this exercise so yeah
02:48:44 and been through this exercise so yeah from that point of view it was very very suitable yes and you go on to say it's tried and tested on many harley projects but you go on also to say
02:48:51 say and we are confident in the cost base were you more confident in the cost base for acm than the cost base for proteus hr composite yes why
02:49:04 yes why because we'd used ac and many times we'd never used proteus hr composite and so we were going we had no past experience of saying whether that cost
02:49:14 cost was right where in acm we could when you say cost base you don't mean i assume the x works price quoted to you by kme do you do you mean the extra costs
02:49:26 do you do you mean the extra costs or on costs added by harley in order to produce an on-the-wall product i'm really really talking about the the ex works price because manufacturers are quite crafty and they
02:49:38 manufacturers are quite crafty and they will quite often not want to commit themselves and they'll give you uh a rate and if you compare that if you do the job in their product and compare that to what you eventually end up paying
02:49:49 what you eventually end up paying um they can sometimes not shall we say they're not aligned you end up paying a lot more so we we had that experience with acm we didn't have it with proteus so that's what i'm referring to
02:50:01 proteus so that's what i'm referring to so we are confident in the cost space because we had that historic data because we'd use the products on long-term projects so in a nutshell does it come to this that you trusted alcoa's rainer bond quotes for
02:50:13 trusted alcoa's rainer bond quotes for acm
02:50:14 acm but didn't trust the 282 pounds of square meter for the proteus hr quoted by kme
02:50:19 by kme we trusted the brenna bond uh quotes but we had no way of knowing whether the other one was correct we had to take it at face value
02:50:30 we had to take it at face value can we scroll up in the email chain to mr sainz's reply 7th of november 2013 at 21.04
02:50:50 7th of november 2013 at 21.04 um which is at the bottom of page one and i think we're going to need page two as well
02:50:55 as well uh thank you for the response you see that yeah uh
02:51:06 yes
02:51:13 and we can see in the second bullet point
02:51:17 point there he says i think i explained when we met that the vm quartz product is an unfortunate dark tone it may not be accepted the ned zinc option is much better is the rate you've
02:51:28 option is much better is the rate you've given us for the kme nedzing cheaper overall my calculation below and in the third bullet point we see that mr sanes also asks for rates for acm
02:51:38 acm and says the client is going to want to include options in the tender for acm the standard finish is unfortunate plastic croiden planner we have some matte satin and high gloss samples in the office please could you
02:51:49 samples in the office please could you indicate appropriate rates for your spreadsheet for different finishes rayna bond i'm assuming duragloss 5000 uh and then also a luca bond spectra sakura
02:52:04 in this context what did you understand the tender to mean
02:52:13 to mean um we're referring to
02:52:17 is that the possible place now
02:52:24 it's the third bullet point i i i'm focusing on mr harris the client is going to want to include options in the tender
02:52:30 tender for acms
02:52:33 i would take from that that the the client has decided that he wants to see price options for acn which is in fact um i believe from memory that was in the
02:52:44 memory that was in the specification right as so i think we i think i understand that answer so you understood that the client the tmo would want acm to be included alongside
02:52:56 want acm to be included alongside alongside other products in in harley's pricing for the works well not just harley's pricing but everybody at tender stage so
02:53:07 everybody at tender stage so only at that stage was one of many people
02:53:10 people pricing so in other words in the nbs specification itself correct yeah yeah now let's look uh on at your response to that which is higher up in the email chain 21st of november page one
02:53:27 we can see you say apologies for the delayed response only just received a response from rayner bond they were holding out on us because they were originally talking to another company we'll come back to the question about
02:53:39 we'll come back to the question about the delay in a minute you provide rates for acm current standard face fixed and cassette and at the bottom you say
02:53:48 say the face fixed on the wall is 187 pounds 50 p per square meter plus 7 pound 50 per square meter for special finishes
02:53:56 finishes and the standard rate for cassette on the wall is 232 pounds 50p per square meter plus 7 pound 50 per square meter for
02:54:08 plus 7 pound 50 per square meter for special finishes where have you obtained those prices from
02:54:13 from i think they were historic ones so not as a result of a specific discussion with rayna bond is that right yeah that that would that would follow
02:54:24 yeah that that would that would follow again and when you say standard in quotes what is that a reference to acm manufacturers have um standard range of flat colors so um a
02:54:37 standard range of flat colors so um a standard red standard white standard yellow
02:54:39 yellow and so that there's a color chart with the base range of colors on it and then if you want to go above that into their special colors special finishes
02:54:49 finishes and then they would become non-standard for
02:54:53 for want of a better word right so nothing to do with pe as opposed to fr no absolutely not you didn't i think in this email provide
02:55:04 you didn't i think in this email provide any response to mr sainz's query in the second bullet point of his email of the 7th of november i showed you about the overall pricing for nedsync we
02:55:15 about the overall pricing for nedsync we can see that you don't do that why is that i'm not sure is it because you didn't like ned zinc or didn't want mr sainz to use it
02:55:26 use it not at all as i said earlier we based our original tender on that that nedsync product had no issue with them at all well from a highly selfish point of view as you explained earlier your strong
02:55:37 as you explained earlier your strong preference was for uh reina bond acm wasn't it yeah as i think i said earlier on that was probably a poor choice of words at the time and what i was really
02:55:48 at the time and what i was really alluding to excuse me is i hardly had much more experience and much more certainty with acn now
02:55:59 with acn now alco do you know this alcoa at the time also produced a zinc composite material did you know that
02:56:06 that i can't remember whether i knew that or not
02:56:09 not miss deborah french of reyno bond has said in a statement that she gave the police in september 2017 that at the time uh
02:56:20 that at the time uh reyno bond's zinc composite panel or zcm was produced and indeed produced with an fr
02:56:27 fr core did you know that
02:56:32 but my experience of acn um was that it was
02:56:36 was acm i did i didn't know there were different grades of material did deborah french never tell you that as well as acm there was something called a zcm a zinc composite panel
02:56:47 panel no i've in fact only learnt about the other
02:56:51 other grades of basic materials after the fire i did not know that before
02:57:10 can we then turn to your sales progress report
02:57:16 and look at that har3010160. and i'd like to look at page two with you mr harris if we can and your entry for the 12th of september
02:57:27 and your entry for the 12th of september 2013.
02:57:33 we've looked at this before and that's why i'm just taking you back to it just to set it in concept set a context for some questions that i'm going to ask you next but you'll remember that you entered on the 12th of
02:57:44 the 12th of september 2013 the reference to the email that you got the day before about wanting assistance on material options costs and technical details you
02:57:55 options costs and technical details you see that
02:57:57 see that now can we go to a an email of the 8th of november 2013. sea 4-0 is 9793 please
02:58:10 this is an email from thomas wreck at studio e of the 8th of november 2013 to you as we can see copy to bruce sowns
02:58:21 to you as we can see copy to bruce sowns and it relates to the cladding on the lower floors and he says uh what panel structure would you recommend for the larger panels at walkway
02:58:29 walkway and walkway plus one levels wall planks with some sort of backing or rainer bond type composite material or would you recommend splitting them into say 260 millimeter wide planks but with minimal gap in between to keep the highlight on the 30
02:58:41 to keep the highlight on the 30 millimeter gap um now that that that's as we can see would you agree with me pretty
02:58:49 pretty specific advice or request for pretty specific advice yes was it your understanding at the time that at this
02:59:00 understanding at the time that at this early stage of the project pretty tender studio e were reliant on your expertise in answering questions like this
02:59:09 like this as to which cladding products might be suitable at particular locations on the building
02:59:15 building i think we were one of a number of people they were seeking advice from do you know who else they were seeking advice of this nature from no already but obviously we knew they'd
02:59:27 no already but obviously we knew they'd been speaking to um manufacturers and fabricators in fact a year before we were even involved
02:59:35 involved we knew through this process that they'd had conversations with sig kme so they'd obviously spoke to an awful lot of people and i have to say that's quite normal that's that's not unusual activity for an architect so yeah at
02:59:48 activity for an architect so yeah at this stage we could never know everybody else they were talking to but we would not have assumed that it was only us
02:59:59 were to your knowledge were they speaking to any potential specialist cladding subcontractor i have no idea
03:00:11 i have no idea so far as you were concerned at the time were you the only potential specialist subcontractor in the frame for this job we would never assume that we could never assume that
03:00:27 is it fair to say that you were expected by studio e to be familiar with the technical specifications of the products you were proposing in order to be able to give the advice that mr wreck was asking you for
03:00:39 that mr wreck was asking you for i think that's reasonable
03:00:43 would you accept also that at this stage pre-contract harley was assisting studio he was developing four tenderers to price
03:00:54 yeah bearing in mind harley would be one of those tenderers so it was it was high level advice um yes yes do you accept also that you are helping
03:01:04 helping studio e to identify and stipulate alternative materials in the tender
03:01:13 we were giving them advice we were responding to requests what they did with it after that was for their for them that wasn't our business we were just providing advice and responding to requests from
03:01:25 advice and responding to requests from them
03:01:27 them you were aware though i would suggest to you that that the purpose of that advice was so is to be able to enable them to include those alternative materials in the
03:01:38 those alternative materials in the tender documentation if they wish to do so that would be for that's a call for them yes and in making that call did you understand that they would be
03:01:49 did you understand that they would be relying at least to some extent on what you were telling them as a potential specialist subcontractor potentially yes now um can i ask you to go to ryd403972 please
03:02:03 go to ryd403972 please this is an email in april 2014 so this is post
03:02:07 is post tender after ryden had won the tender but before they formally contracted with the tmo
03:02:14 the tmo and it's an email
03:02:18 uh from you to simon lawrence 24th of april simon received a call from bruce at studio e they are working out some cladding details and we'll email
03:02:30 some cladding details and we'll email them across to us tomorrow for comment i've agreed that we will review and make any necessary comments to guide them in the right direction
03:02:39 i'll show you that and then another document the next day it's sca3010779
03:02:48 this is an email from kai fabianka at studio e to you
03:02:55 sea 30107
03:03:01 email from kai fabianka to you of the 25th of april 2014 copied to simon lawrence and uh he
03:03:12 and uh he says as discussed earlier please find attached a couple of 3d images showing the detail we would like to achieve on the acm rain screen cladding panels see that and then four paragraphs down
03:03:25 see that and then four paragraphs down he says could you please let us know if this could be done using the secret fixing system or if it has to be face fixed rivets would both face fixing systems be within the budget again is it fair to say that studio e
03:03:37 again is it fair to say that studio e were looking at both of these emails i've shown you reliant on harley's specialist expertise for the initial cladding design
03:03:47 yeah i think they were asking us a number of questions i think what i should add at this point is that emails are coming of that nature as you would have seen in the previous email i was copying in other people at ali because i wouldn't
03:03:59 other people at ali because i wouldn't be assessing the detail of this email i was the recipient of it because i was at pre-contract stage the main point of contact so the conduit who was
03:04:10 of contact so the conduit who was through which most information flowed but in terms of assessing um their questions there would have been others within harley that would have had to have dealt with that even if the response went back from me
03:04:23 even if the response went back from me you know i wouldn't be assessing uh technical questions of this nature yes
03:04:28 yes do you accept as the recipient of the email at least that that studio you were reliant on harley's specialist expertise for the initial cladding design even if not yours specifically or yours
03:04:40 even if not yours specifically or yours personally well i don't know that they were relying on it i think it was part of the process that they were looking at and we were helping with that you were helping
03:04:50 helping all right can i then turn to a different topic which is harley's relationship with alcoa or arconic as it was later named can i ask you first to go to your
03:05:01 your witness statement to page five and i'd like to look at paragraph 18 please with you
03:05:11 and you say there paragraph 18
03:05:16 as well as studio e and ryden harley was also liaising with manufacturers suppliers and fabricators in relation to a number of products that could potentially be used for the cladding of grenfell tower
03:05:27 grenfell tower again i was the main point of contact for
03:05:30 for for this my main point of contact at alcoa who supplied the reynaband acm that was eventually used on grenfell tower was deborah french um just just pausing there in your
03:05:42 um just just pausing there in your statement
03:05:43 statement can we then look at the email chain that we looked at earlier i think uh har3010172
03:05:55 this is an email we looked at earlier this morning mr harris from you to mr sones
03:06:00 sones at studio e on the 21st of november 2013 and you say as i've shown you apologies for the delayed response only just received a response from rayner bond
03:06:11 received a response from rayner bond they were holding out on us because they were
03:06:12 were originally talking with another company and were concerned about maintaining loyalty on the basis that the other company introduced them to the project once i pointed out how much business we do with reynobond
03:06:23 do with reynobond it focused their attention double exclamation mark is it fair to say that you were drawing attention in this email to the strength of the relationship between alcoa
03:06:34 between alcoa who made reiner bond and harley yes how much business did you what did harley
03:06:42 harley do with alcoa at that stage
03:06:47 i don't know in terms of value but obviously
03:06:50 obviously if you look at the number of blocks that have been overclad with their product it was quite a substantial amount so but i can't
03:06:58 i can't accomplish that into a value is it fair to say though that the relationship with alcoa was a strong one
03:07:05 one in the sense that alcoa were the biggest supplier of rain screen panels to harley for its use on on cladding projects
03:07:15 projects yeah i mean harley didn't buy materials direct from our cover um because harley did fabricate so harley would buy through a fabricate sorry through a fabricator
03:07:27 fabricator which was cep in this instance though um cep would buy the material from alcoa and then we would buy it from cep but we still had a relationship with our
03:07:40 yes and that relationship was i'm just seeking to get to the bottom of although they were the manufacturers and would supply an intermediary fabricator
03:07:51 would supply an intermediary fabricator um you'll really you had a relationship with alcoa and is that because of the products or materials
03:08:02 of the products or materials that were supplied for overclouding projects it was alcoa who supplied most to harley yes can we look at cep
03:08:13 yes can we look at cep 50325
03:08:16 50325 this is an email from simon lawrence to you
03:08:28 cep 50325
03:08:37 yes this is an email from ce um
03:08:43 i'm so sorry can we go to page two of that
03:08:50 and it's an email from simon lawrence to you on page two of the sixth of june 2014 mr bruce as well isn't it uh indeed to bruce
03:09:02 as well isn't it uh indeed to bruce sainz and to you copy to ray bailey and he says uh just to clarify conversations between us all i put some action points
03:09:13 between us all i put some action points below
03:09:15 below and then the penultimate bullet point says mark to contact raynaud about time scales to get materials for mock-up natural brushed natural aluminium brushed h9103s
03:09:27 brushed h9103s and champagne metallic e1101s now scrolling up the page if we can to the next document we see that the
03:09:39 to the next document we see that the same day 6th of june 2014
03:09:47 uh you write to deborah french a copy to jeff blades and you uh say deb jeff to keep you in the loop
03:09:59 uh say deb jeff to keep you in the loop this will be no problem for cep they have very little on at the moment haha and the next email ups on the following monday 9th of june 2014
03:10:12 on the following monday 9th of june 2014 to you copy to jeff blades mark you're cruel
03:10:16 cruel i will bring the smelling salts round jeff
03:10:19 jeff there's a little smiley face and exclamation marks and then jeff blades responds to that copy to you he says nothing's too much
03:10:31 copy to you he says nothing's too much for us at the moment we just keep fabricating rain screen and glazing and then sending it out with whichever project was last spoke about lol mark all i can say is you'll be taken out for a very nice meal
03:10:44 you'll be taken out for a very nice meal somewhere
03:10:45 somewhere very soon somewhere very nice
03:10:50 is it fair to say looking at this email exchange that at this time at least you had a close relationship with cep as well as alcoa yes now your role as you told us earlier
03:11:03 yes now your role as you told us earlier would be pursuing project leads for harley to get involved in looking at this would it be fair to say that that exact role extended to maintaining links with suppliers product suppliers and fabricators yes
03:11:18 is it also fair to say that you weren't actually liaising with any other companies who manufactured acm products such as a luca bond or 3a composites well
03:11:30 3a composites well i'd like to go not only maybe not on this project but i certainly certainly uh had a relationship with three a conversation and with the chat that was there at the time he's no longer there but
03:11:42 time he's no longer there but um yeah i had a relationship with them as well so it wasn't and and non-atm uh supply chain partners as well
03:11:50 as well um it's it's it's all part of the uh part of the role yes but doing a comparison exercise is it fair to say that you had a stronger professional relationship with deborah french at alcoa
03:12:01 alcoa than with her contemporaries at other or equal numbers opposite numbers of other manufacturers yeah debbie had been really good um proactive
03:12:11 proactive in providing information examples and things like such as that and we did a project called weyland house and
03:12:20 house and there was uh acm on that building and there was a requirement for a particular finish and she did an awful lot of running around for us so you build up that relationship with somebody and you start
03:12:32 relationship with somebody and you start to trust them so yeah she's been very good for us yes
03:12:38 uh were any incentives provided for you to use alcoa and their rainer bond product over any other product made by other manufacturers
03:12:51 now the rates that you gave mr sones in the email we looked at earlier if we could just go back to that it's har3010172
03:13:06 it's har3010172 were on the wall rates weren't they yes
03:13:11 and you told us earlier what on the wall means face fixed as we can see 187 pounds 50 per square meter and cassette 232
03:13:22 per square meter and cassette 232 pounds 50p per square meter
03:13:26 can we go just keeping those figures in mind 187
03:13:31 mind 187 for standard face fixed and 232 for standard cassette can we look at har four zeros five five one two please
03:13:51 this is an email from deborah french to you of the 21st of november 2013.
03:13:59 so the same day as your email to bruce sowns
03:14:03 sowns we've just looked at in which we in which you gave him the on-the-wall prices of 187 and two three two odd [Applause] and in fact it's 40 minutes earlier than
03:14:15 and in fact it's 40 minutes earlier than the one you sent to mr sones and we can see that she offers you here uh rates uh of 32 to 35 pounds per square meter
03:14:28 to 35 pounds per square meter doesn't she well she's not offering it to us
03:14:31 to us she's offering it to an approved fabricator uh all right i i see that uh that's not an on-the-wall rate is it
03:14:42 that's not an on-the-wall rate is it oh that's excuse me that's the sheet material
03:14:45 material unfabricated so x works if you like
03:14:50 well yeah x works well it may even be a delivered rate to somebody like see i don't know but it's for
03:14:59 it's for sheet material typically say eight or four sheets of the product that's what she's referring to there delivered to a fabricator yes how did you get
03:15:12 in the 30 in the 40 minutes uh from 32 pounds to 35 pounds as the rate offered to the fabricators to 187 pound 50 and 232 pound 50
03:15:26 to 187 pound 50 and 232 pound 50 for uh face fixed and cassette respectively i think i explained earlier on there were historic rates have been used on other projects
03:15:40 can you break it up let's take 32 to 35 how do you get from 32 to 35 to 187 what are the composite elements of that
03:15:51 what are the composite elements of that of the on costs that you add to the 32 to 35 to get to 187 pound 50p i don't have a breakdown in front of me and i wasn't the estimator
03:16:02 and i wasn't the estimator however you would have in there for example
03:16:06 example insulation you would have uh the thick you'd have the support rail the substructure that's behind the cladding on which the cladding panel is hung um you would have a design
03:16:19 is hung um you would have a design that's related to that installation on site
03:16:23 site wastage as well and then over and above that
03:16:26 that overheads and profit and what about the fabricators costs yeah they would be added to that
03:16:37 they would be sorry they would be added to what
03:16:40 to what it would be in our great top four so that that 32 pounds would be the price that um alcoa would sell to cep the eep would then cut it up
03:16:52 cep the eep would then cut it up fabricated panels and sell it to us for a higher price than that and exactly what part of the 187 would would represent the fabricators cost per square meter
03:17:03 square meter i can't remember from from that far back on
03:17:06 on but the 180 750 would include the fabricators costs is that right yeah correct did you calculate this these figures yourself one eight seven and two three two or did
03:17:18 one eight seven and two three two or did you
03:17:19 you you didn't foreign
03:17:25 i'm sorry we spoke across each other let me try the question in a slightly different way during the 40 minutes between you're receiving
03:17:32 receiving these prices from miss french and you passing on the on the wall rates to mr sones on the 21st of november during that 40 minute period what did you do
03:17:44 you do to arrive at these uh on-the-wall figures you were giving to mr sones i probably would have checked in with the estimator very quickly and we would have looked at other historic projects because don't
03:17:56 other historic projects because don't forget it's not just a case of the projects that were secured by harley it would have dozens of projects that it didn't secure or never went ahead and it would have
03:18:07 or never went ahead and it would have probably
03:18:08 probably had lots of cost data for lots of very similar projects so it would not have been very difficult to have looked one of those up and use that same cost data for something that was very similar
03:18:21 something that was very similar comparing the x works price and the quoted price for kme the difference between those which was more than double as we saw earlier
03:18:30 earlier uh with the x works price for rayna bond acm and the on-the-wall price
03:18:39 price gross price um the margins uh available on acm were vastly higher weren't they than the margins available on the proteus sink
03:18:51 margins available on the proteus sink because you're not comparing apples with apples what you have there is a sheet price what you had with the zinc price was a fabricated panel
03:19:02 price but you're not the but this email that's in front of us isn't a fabricated panel it's a price being offered to fabricators isn't it correct and the same is true as you told
03:19:14 correct and the same is true as you told us earlier in relation of to the zinc the protease sink
03:19:19 sink panel quoted by kme no they are the fabricator all of those markups and costs for fabrication and their markups are built into that
03:19:30 into that i follow
03:19:33 i follow even at the marked up rates you offered for raynaud they were still vastly cheaper than the kme products certainly the proteus hr that was created
03:19:43 created yes can we look at cep50
03:19:52 this is an email can we start at the bottom of page one from jeff blades to deborah french on the 7th of january 2014
03:20:05 on the 7th of january 2014 in which he asks her for panel prices can you see that hi debs please see the attached range screen spec read the above can you please advise rates with rayner bond accordingly
03:20:17 rates with rayner bond accordingly now you wouldn't you weren't copied on that and
03:20:21 that and she responds if you look up the page she quotes him rates of 28 pounds per square meter you see that
03:20:33 and she says they're exceptionally good rates
03:20:37 and this is cheaper isn't it than her quote to you of 32 to 35 pounds yes it would seem so do i take it that you weren't aware of what deborah french was quoting to
03:20:51 of what deborah french was quoting to cep no and i wouldn't have expected to be that's a matter for them well you see in the email we saw earlier she was telling you uh that she was offering fabricators a
03:21:03 uh that she was offering fabricators a rate of 32 to 35 pounds that's what she said in the email of the 21st of november
03:21:07 november but here in fact she's offering cep a fabricator a cheaper rate 28 pounds my question is well you were made
03:21:14 made aware of the fact that although she told you she was offering fabricators 32 to 35 pounds in fact she was offering cep a much cheaper rate or she calls it
03:21:25 cep a much cheaper rate or she calls it exceptionally good rates of 28 pounds no not aware of that that's a question for her
03:21:34 are you surprised that she was telling you
03:21:38 you um that uh about a rate which was higher than the rate in fact that she was offering to fabricators not especially uh she also says
03:21:49 not especially uh she also says uh underneath that hope this is okay to start the bidding with harley's i'm sure you or neil will be back on the phone if you need any other details or reductions and then there's a whatever the opposite of a smiley face
03:22:00 whatever the opposite of a smiley face is um
03:22:03 did were you told that there was potential
03:22:07 potential to get the reyna bond for less no if you'd been told that would it have allowed you to revise your on the wall estimates downwards
03:22:18 yes
03:22:23 in your email asking for prices we don't need to go back to it but it's a
03:22:29 hir405512 if we do you didn't specify whether you wanted pe
03:22:34 wanted pe or fr core is that because you didn't aware weren't aware at the time that there was a difference correct or wasn't aware at the time that fr corey even existed all right
03:22:47 can i ask you to go to cep3051297 please
03:23:02 can i ask you to go to cep3051297 please this is an email uh from you
03:23:09 uh of the 24th of april 2014 to jeff blades cep copy to ray bailey and mike albertson morning jeff just to place a note on record regarding the conversations between debbie french
03:23:20 the conversations between debbie french and myself with respect to grenfell tower
03:23:25 and and you then go on about the rates from alcoa offer a maximum saving against original zinc
03:23:38 just in general terms is it fair to say that you had had by this stage relatively extensive conversations with miss french regarding the grenfell tower refurbishment i think there had been a
03:23:50 refurbishment i think there had been a number of exchanges yeah to your understanding was deborah french aware that grenfell tower was a tall building which exceeded 18 meters in height
03:24:01 in height yes do you know how she discovered that fact
03:24:06 not offhand but obviously she um and jeff had been in seeing udoe a year before we were involved so i assume it goes back to then
03:24:18 assume it goes back to then can we look at cep 50277 this is an email which you sent deborah french on the 9th of april 2014
03:24:38 cep cep50277 and again copy to jeff blades at cep hi deb having now spoken with ryden after you left harley house
03:24:50 after you left harley house i am pleased to confirm that they have been officially confirmed as preferred contractor for grenfell tower this is good news for all sorts of reasons exclamation mark do you know why deborah french had been at harley house
03:25:03 she could have been talking about multiple projects quite honestly at that period um
03:25:08 period um it was not unusual because harley would have been tendering even through this period multiple projects and grenfell would have been one of those um so she could have been in speaking
03:25:20 um so she could have been in speaking about a number of different projects did she often visit holly house no so right do you know who was present at that meeting
03:25:32 at that meeting no i don't know
03:25:35 were you i would imagine so do you remember whether you talked about grenfell
03:25:42 grenfell i i don't wouldn't surprise me when you say after you say that they've been officially confirmed preferred contractor for grenfell tower
03:25:53 grenfell tower this is good news for all sorts of reasons what were the reasons you were referring to because we'd work with ryden's on other tower projects and yeah this one this was another one
03:26:05 and yeah this one this was another one so
03:26:06 so uh we felt that was a good situation do you know why you chose to copy jeff blades of cep into this email
03:26:16 specifically can you look at an email at hir three zeros
03:26:25 sorry let me just ask this question before i go to it were there any arrangements informal arrangements or understandings in place
03:26:32 in place between you deborah french and jeff blades to promote the use or adoption of raynaud products
03:26:44 no it looks from what we've been seeing so far that the relationship between the three of you was pretty cozy to use a colloquialism would you accept that
03:26:54 that no i'd say it was professional and we knew each other professionally and that was all so just a business relationship all right we dealt with quite a bit
03:27:06 all right we dealt with quite a bit can i ask you to go to har3010218 uh this is
03:27:17 uh this is at the bottom of page one we an email from deborah french to you of the 16th of may 2014 reyno bond projects grenfell towers is the subject
03:27:29 towers is the subject and it's timed at 11 35. uh she says following our telephone call i have attached them in which is images of projects that may be of help in terms of face fixed and rivets
03:27:41 of face fixed and rivets just to confirm the color already proposed for grenfell towers is our natural aluminium brushed b4536s we have a project in london called south kilburn which is a cassette project
03:27:52 kilburn which is a cassette project using rb natural aluminium brushed and she gives the speg this is not the same as the above it's more silver in color do you have any recollection of the
03:28:03 do you have any recollection of the conversation that she's referring to there
03:28:07 there vaguely i i recall there was a project that she referred to um i have a feeling udlee went and visited that site i can't be specific about that
03:28:19 i can't be specific about that she says that she's attached some images of projects that may be of help help with what do you remember yeah i think it was just the visual appearance i mean that through this
03:28:32 appearance i mean that through this dominated this process was appearance um even from studio that say she was all about color and appearance though debbie was just providing another
03:28:43 though debbie was just providing another project
03:28:44 project that particular handle on it that they could go and see um rather than just seeing a really small sample on a desk you can actually see a building with it on you get a much
03:28:55 building with it on you get a much better idea of what it looks like can i ask you to look at your tender report at har3010160 at page seven please
03:29:08 and i'd like to look with you at the entry date of the eighth of may at the bottom of that page file note do you see that and it says steve blake called just
03:29:19 and it says steve blake called just before his meeting with the planet to say that the architect had a pattern of sample with him and wanted to know what the extra cost would be for this mah text message returned to steve stating that the passenger product is
03:29:31 stating that the passenger product is not currently available as per debi french email but that aside the extra cost would be uh circa 40 000 pounds to the cladding package based on 10 pounds per square meter times 3
03:29:44 10 pounds per square meter times 3 600 square meters rounded up to the nearest 10 000 pounds mah suggested to steve that this product was not shown to the architect we await post meeting feedback mah to chase next week
03:29:55 chase next week do you recall that conversation i don't actually
03:29:59 actually obviously i can see the detail
03:30:05 do you remember what i would follow i suppose you don't remember what mr blake's response to that was i don't know um you refer to an mah text message
03:30:14 message do you still have records of those text messages
03:30:18 messages i don't unfortunately do you know why not
03:30:23 well i'm no longer with harley i left harley
03:30:26 harley some time ago right this was on a harley phone was it i can't remember to be honest with you all right did you suggest to mr blake that you shouldn't
03:30:37 suggest to mr blake that you shouldn't show the pattern the product studio e because it was 40 000 pounds more expensive
03:30:43 don't know why i said that can't remember
03:30:46 remember was the reason for suggesting it wasn't shown to the architect that they didn't choose it
03:30:55 i don't know
03:31:00 but you accept that in deciding or assisting in this in the architect in deciding
03:31:08 deciding what samples i'm sorry let me pose the question again a different way would you agree that when deciding what samples the architects and the planners should
03:31:19 architects and the planners should see you're exert you are exerting some influence
03:31:23 influence on what product was ultimately chosen no i've made a comment and it's for steve
03:31:29 steve to decide what he does with that information
03:31:35 in general terms would you accept that harley were influential in getting reyno bond into the nbs spec at the end of 2013 and then in
03:31:46 at the end of 2013 and then in in 2014 helping to get it chosen out of all the available options no i think we were part of the process um with um responding to requests for
03:32:00 with um responding to requests for information on cost on a number of different products and a number of different samples and harley's point of view if the specification for the zinc had held
03:32:11 specification for the zinc had held then the contract value would have been much higher and thus no interest to harley in having a much lesser contract value it was client budget
03:32:22 it was client budget that drove it away from that so we were just being helpful yes thank you mr chairman that's a convenient moment for the lunch break if it's good to you good thank you very much well mr harris
03:32:33 much well mr harris sir just after one o'clock so it's time to have a break for lunch we'll resume at two o'clock please and um
03:32:42 um please don't talk to anyone at all about your evidence or anything to do with it during the break all right okay thank you very much and we'll meet again at two o'clock
03:32:53 and we'll meet again at two o'clock thank you thank you
03:33:54 you