Mark Harris of Harley Facades continues giving evidence about their role in the Reynobond ACM panel selection, their relationship with Rydon, communications with CEP and Arconic, and the tender process for the Grenfell Tower refurbishment.
00:28:27 well hello again mr bailey sorry mr harris on the day i'm a day out hello mr harris are you ready to carry on
00:28:36 on good i am sorry good thank you very much yes mr miller mr chairman mr harris can we look at cep 50304 please
00:28:53 this is an email from you to deborah french 16th of may 2014 hi deb uh further to our telephone conversation this morning i look forward to receiving information
00:29:04 to receiving information and photographs on both the kilburn and birmingham projects this might help in overcoming the planners concerns following their visit to both ferrier point and camden earlier this week what were the planners concerns there
00:29:16 what were the planners concerns there that you were referring to i believe it was this was down to appearance on camden and on ferrier point um they had um i mean camden they were just
00:29:31 they had um i mean camden they were just sort of beige like beige colored panels and ontario point i think that was silver and blue and i think they wanted something a bit more fancy for wanting a better word and so the concerns were a visual
00:29:43 and so the concerns were a visual appearance were you concerned at this stage that there was a risk that rainer bond acm panels might not be approved by the planners no no did harley have any association
00:29:56 no no did harley have any association with either the kilburn or birmingham project that you've referred to no
00:30:06 can you go to paragraph 22 of your statement please at page six
00:30:14 uh you say there your statement page six
00:30:26 your statement page six i don't know what this is it's with the reference to your statement is har3010159 i think we've got an email which has nothing to do with anything
00:30:39 or at least not this page 22 please yes um paragraph 22 page six in the months that followed and this is in context january 2014 i was still
00:30:50 in context january 2014 i was still liaising with studio e and ryden about the material to be used for the cladding however most of these discussions continue to focus on the color and physical appearance of various materials rather than their safety
00:31:01 rather than their safety or suitability
00:31:06 you say most of these discussions is it fair to say that the sole focus of studio e
00:31:11 studio e ryden and harley and indeed the planners was on the aesthetic properties of the cladding rather than their fire performance yes do you recall any discussions of the
00:31:24 yes do you recall any discussions of the fire performance of the cladding taking place between any of studio e ryden and harley or the players
00:31:31 players yeah not with me whether others did i can't answer that but certainly i had no discussions with any of those organizations and whether other people from harley did
00:31:42 and whether other people from harley did or whether those organizations did between themselves i don't know do you recall any discussions about the the core of the panels and what the core
00:31:53 the core of the panels and what the core of the panels was to be made of absolutely not now you uh you received an email from simon lawrence
00:32:04 lawrence regarding samples for the mock-up and i think we see that at sea three zeros one zero nine nine four please
00:32:18 and this is an email dated the 22nd of may 2014 hi mark having spoken with bruce you see that and my client this afternoon it feels that the first
00:32:30 this afternoon it feels that the first choice is definitely natural brushed aluminium
00:32:33 aluminium and then he goes on in the next paragraph
00:32:36 paragraph about the supply and he says in the third line i'm sure rayner bond will happily supply the sample material when it comes to it we haven't engaged with any of their competitors when
00:32:47 with any of their competitors when looking at the samples so far and we don't intend to providing they give us the service i'm not sure if a luca bond trespa or whoever will be more than happy to help
00:32:58 whoever will be more than happy to help i'm sorry i've misread that if not i'm sure aluca bon trespas or whoever would be more than happy to help is it fair to say looking at that as that as at late may 2014
00:33:09 as that as at late may 2014 reyna bond acm was the only product that was genuinely being investigated
00:33:16 i think it was probably preferred at that stage yes
00:33:22 well to put my question another way in light of that answer is it right that as a
00:33:26 a late may 2014 there were no serious investigations of any other product other than rayner bond acm i think it'll be a reasonably fair
00:33:38 be a reasonably fair comment at that stage um because they were looking at the kind of the architect wanted a mock-up built which was quite a substantial mock-up on the side of the building
00:33:49 mock-up on the side of the building so that meant a lot of people doing a lot of work so you couldn't do that with multiple companies
00:33:57 companies we can see that on the 25th of july you were told by studio e that reynaborn champagne cassettes have been selected do you remember that yeah
00:34:10 do you remember that yeah but let's just look at a document
00:34:18 cep4050427 this is an email
00:34:25 from you to others within harley see that yep
00:34:38 the architect for grenfell tower just called us up to keep us in the loop with respect to material choice the rainer bond color choice for the whole job is champagne in a cassette format we cannot take this as formal
00:34:49 format we cannot take this as formal instruction but i'm told this is unlikely to change we await formal notification and i think you um notified jeff blades of cep and deborah french at
00:35:00 jeff blades of cep and deborah french at alcoa didn't you uh would seem so yes as you can see from that
00:35:07 that you say jeff deb for your interest i can hear you swearing from here deb and the response to that from mr blades is that cep 5048 if we just look at that
00:35:25 he says to you highmark good news and debs will be swearing with joy see you wednesday
00:35:32 do we take it from this exchange that the
00:35:36 the months of hard work put in by you to secure reyno bond acm on grenfell and to see off the threat of zinc as it were had paid off well in terms of your relationships with
00:35:48 relationships with cep and with debbie french well i don't know that it can be all attributed to me there's a whole team of people are highly involved in this process and obviously cep are involved
00:36:00 process and obviously cep are involved and debbie's involved and the architects involved
00:36:03 involved and writers are involved so it's a combination of everybody's efforts together um yeah it's not just one person
00:36:11 person and i think the thrust of the point you need to understand mr harris is that you had been successful in seeing off to use mr millet's expression other
00:36:22 to use mr millet's expression other potential choices don't think that's the correct way of putting it sir i don't think seeing off is the correct expression i think we we we had um
00:36:33 expression i think we we we had um spoken to renabon more than anybody else because they were providing very good service
00:36:38 service and that could easily have been another product um but it wasn't it was renault bond and in in any event um nobody had been seen off at that stage because
00:36:49 off at that stage because the tender that we produced was still based on the original zinc material which could have been selected right thank you but by this stage it had not been selected
00:37:00 not been selected or had rather been deselected because we can see that rayna bond champagne uh in a cassette format had subject to the formal instruction been selected hadn't it and
00:37:12 hadn't it and you were delighted about it well that's been said
00:37:15 been said of course but that's been selected by other people not by us all right can i look at cep 504 then please
00:37:26 this is an email a few days later from deborah french to you first of august 2014
00:37:34 and at the bottom of that page you can see
00:37:38 see that simon lawrence
00:37:41 comes in with an email to you third line the bottom line is that the client has just confirmed to planning that they are looking to proceed with the rayner bond champagne color
00:37:53 champagne color as shown on the mock-up for the main body of the building and cladding will be the cassette fixing version and you send that on to jeff blades and deborah french uh
00:38:05 jeff blades and deborah french uh uh within the hour of receiving it on the 31st of july you see that jeff deb copy for your interest and then the uh the next day the first
00:38:16 and then the uh the next day the first of august 2014 deborah french responds to you and jeff blades saying hi mark it's getting exciting
00:38:24 exciting thank you for your hard work and perseverance in putting rayner bond forward i think iuu and jeff either lunch or dinner at some point now putting that together with the
00:38:37 now putting that together with the emails we've just been looking at it it's right isn't it that the reality is that at this stage you cep and deborah french were very happy indeed that reyna bond acm had won
00:38:51 the three companies that we worked for were happy we were three individuals they're having to work for those companies all right the three companies were happy that rayna bond had won
00:39:04 that rayna bond had won correct yeah and do you agree with deborah french's impression that harley were instrumental in putting rayner bond forward as she puts it
00:39:16 puts it harley as i said earlier on uh responded to requests from people after it was proved that the job was over budget the request for alternative materials harley
00:39:27 harley was very helpful in providing that information well she says to you personally mr mr harris thank you for your hard work
00:39:39 mr harris thank you for your hard work and perseverance in putting reynabond forward
00:39:42 forward that was her impression was she just being polite or did she did you think she meant it i think she was being polite i mean she's she's addressing it to me at harley
00:39:54 she's addressing it to me at harley so this is not a personal email this is a an email from deborah french in her capacity
00:39:59 capacity as uk sales manager from uh for renovond emailing to me in my capacity harley
00:40:07 i understand that well if it was rewritten to say thank you and everyone at harley for all of your hard work and perseverance in putting rayner bond forward would you agree that harley as i'd asked you was instrumental
00:40:20 harley as i'd asked you was instrumental in
00:40:20 in quotes putting rayner bond forward close quotes
00:40:24 quotes and other organizations were involved in that process yes
00:40:37 is it fair to say looking at this email that at least by this point mr debra french knew that the panels that were to be used were the cassette method
00:40:49 i believe so if reino bond that is alcoa and miss french had any
00:41:00 that is alcoa and miss french had any concerns at the time regarding the safety of the use of cassette panels on grenfell tower would you have expected
00:41:09 expected her to raise them with you yes did she ever no
00:41:18 i could only speak for myself here of course so
00:41:21 course so i won't answer whether she raised it with anybody else
00:41:27 can i then turn to a slightly different subject which is uh your relationship or harley's relationship if you like with ryden can i take you to paragraph 16 of your statement to page four
00:41:40 you say there at page four paragraph 16
00:41:51 you say there at page four paragraph 16 as well as studio e i was also liaising with ryden around at around this time as they were interested in tendering for the main contractor work on the project my main point of contact at ryden at that early stage was jonathan roland
00:42:03 that early stage was jonathan roland harley had worked with ryden on a number of other projects so we were keen to stay in touch with them throughout the tendering process now you remember from this morning we looked together at the way in which you first became aware of the grenfell tower
00:42:14 first became aware of the grenfell tower project in early 2013. and we i think looked at an email in august to bruce saynes can we look at
00:42:28 ryd401228 this is an email from you to jonathan roland at ryden
00:42:40 dated 24th of august 2013 so a few months later and i think we saw this earlier this morning are you guys tracking a project called grenfell we've been tracking this one for quite a while
00:42:51 one for quite a while it's typical of the type of work we were jointly involved with
00:42:57 a chocolates and ferrier uh this one has it said it says this one has our name written all over it now uh when you say ah were you referring to ryden
00:43:08 referring to ryden and harley working as a team together or to harley
00:43:11 to harley there no ryden and harley ryden ann harley i see so you were liaising with ryden at a very early stage
00:43:19 stage with a view to forming a as it were informally a joint about venture or joint
00:43:26 joint working relationship on this project uh no that was too early at that stage i was just hoping riders were on the tender list or we were there harley were hoping for on there
00:43:37 hoping for on there um but obviously we can't influence a pqq process and they may or may not have been on the eventual tender list if they hadn't been we would have gone after it to tender it anyway um but yeah that was very early
00:43:50 anyway um but yeah that was very early doors and we were hoping that riders would be pursuing it would be on the manga track tender list how many projects had harley previously worked on with ryden before this too so chelsea's inferior
00:44:04 before this too so chelsea's inferior yes but we had tendered other tower block projects
00:44:16 roughly how many do you remember
00:44:20 crikey two to three i think from memory all right did you send an email like this to any other potential main contractor no
00:44:31 main contractor no can we look at ryd401398 please
00:44:42 and i think we saw
00:44:49 this earlier this is the email you sent to
00:44:52 to uh steve blake on the 27th of september 2013 after the hayes galleria meeting
00:45:03 hayes galleria meeting and you say to him how are things progressing with pqq on grenfell tower as you might recall we made contact with the architect about the cladding back in april
00:45:12 april he called up a few days ago and asked for a meeting ray and myself met with bruce stones and thomas wreck of studio e architects this morning we had a good session talking about several aspects including available products interface details program
00:45:23 products interface details program access design and budget costs we spoke extensively about ferrier point being that there are a number of strong similarities between ferrier and grenfell
00:45:31 grenfell i think they may they might well pay visit to newham in the near future and neuro is where ferry appointments isn't it i think that's correct yeah um now this was
00:45:43 that's correct yeah um now this was long before even the invitation to tender went out wasn't it uh yes uh can you tell us why you informed ryden about this specific
00:45:55 informed ryden about this specific meeting
00:45:56 meeting and what had been discussed at that meeting at this stage yeah i think we're keeping them in the loop i mean at this stage my job in terms of business development
00:46:07 my job in terms of business development is to
00:46:09 is to expose the name harley to as many people as possible and that's part of that process um and obviously wanted ryden to know that we were getting ourselves involved wanted to know where they were
00:46:21 involved wanted to know where they were with it and didn't know who else was involved so i couldn't have approached any other main contractors so i wouldn't have known at that stage um and obviously we were hoping as i said earlier that ryden would make
00:46:33 said earlier that ryden would make the tender list so this was just an ongoing
00:46:37 ongoing exchange of information did you send a similar email to any other potential main contractor but not at that stage as i wouldn't have known who they were
00:46:48 i think we did find out obviously because we ended up tendering all four in the end how did you know that ryden were in the frame at this stage
00:46:58 stage well he didn't that's why i'm asking how they progressing with their pqq that's a a pre-qualification process that they have to go through to
00:47:09 process that they have to go through to get on the tender list i didn't know whether they were even on it at that stage did you send a similar email for example to weights or durkhen or malali
00:47:20 durkhen or malali i don't think there was a similar email i definitely had email exchanges with all of them at some stage because they were all tendering it yeah but this that's right but at this stage
00:47:30 stage at this early stage did you send a similar email to any other potential main contractor such as weights durkhen or mulally no i wouldn't have known
00:47:41 known who else was going after it
00:47:49 but how did you know that ryden was going after it i didn't i i had to if you look at the earlier email trails i'm asking them the question is it on their radar are
00:48:00 the question is it on their radar are they intending to pursue it and it wasn't they very dumb and they started pursuing it once they'd started consuming it i kept in touch now you asked ryden how their pqq pre-qualification
00:48:12 their pqq pre-qualification questionnaire was progressing why did you need to know that well i didn't really i was just interested right so you were interested in harley but it appears at this stage not any other potential contractor
00:48:24 potential contractor is that correct i'm not at all been been happy to have spoken to other contractors and did eventually when i found out
00:48:31 found out who they were yeah well i think i think you've got the i think we've got the answer to my question
00:48:38 uh if we look at your sales progress report at har3010160 we can see that uh ryden
00:48:50 started keeping harley updated can we go to page three please um you can see that on the fifth of december there towards the bottom of the page mr harris
00:49:02 towards the bottom of the page mr harris um 5th of december there it is filemaker call received from simon lawrence at ryden to advise that they attended the main contractor project intro meeting with the client and architect yesterday and
00:49:13 architect yesterday and others in attendance included keep durkin and weights when the architect gave a slideshow presentation of the scheme harley's name was included on the slide and verbal reference was made to the assistants that we provided
00:49:25 assistants that we provided is it fair to say that although the tender process was at this stage preliminary harley were firmly associated with the project
00:49:34 um well i never saw that presentation because i was i don't actually know what was what was used but the architect had obviously um used something um but we don't know
00:49:45 um used something um but we don't know what that is so yeah we had an association with it but we could not take that for granted do you remember what else was discussed on this phone call with mr lawrence
00:49:56 no moving forward in time h.a.r.50911 please
00:50:06 this is an email of the 6th of february 2014 that
00:50:09 2014 that you sent to simon lawrence at ryden just to
00:50:13 to remind you of the chronology 6th of february 2014 is after the invitation to tender and the tender documents had gone out but before the
00:50:24 but before the tender responses had come back and if you let's look at the bottom email first if we can uh on page one it's youtube simon lauren sixth of february simon
00:50:36 simon lauren sixth of february simon just to keep you in the loop we've been asked by a couple of other of the other mcs about program see below the response we've sent out we have opted to keep it basic and not issue a detailed program but we'd be
00:50:47 issue a detailed program but we'd be pleased
00:50:47 pleased to do so for your good self do we take it from this email that you were telling ryden what you had told other bidders about the program yeah we were trying to be fair and open
00:50:59 yeah we were trying to be fair and open with all of them and give them all the same program
00:51:06 well it looks from this just help me that you'd been asked by a couple of the other main contractors about the program uh had sent responses out to them but
00:51:17 uh had sent responses out to them but but wanted to make sure ryden were kept in the loop is that yes yes
00:51:29 and you say we opted to keep it basic and not issue a detailed program but would be pleased to do so for your good self is that to be read as saying that although you told you'd give you've given other main potential main contractors
00:51:41 other main potential main contractors basic information you would you'd be pleased to give ryden a detailed program yeah we were obviously would have given them a bit more information i mean we
00:51:53 them a bit more information i mean we would have been reproducing it would have been somebody in the contracts team but it would have been the same
00:51:58 the same durations but just and with a bit more detail
00:52:02 detail why were you proposing to provide more detailed
00:52:05 detailed program information to ryden over the other main contractors oh that's just based on the relationship that we have with bride right is it fair to say that you were
00:52:16 right is it fair to say that you were doing everything you could to see that ryden was awarded the project over other potential competitors no i i can't bring any influence to bear on that that's the client's decision
00:52:28 on that that's the client's decision all right is it fair to say that you were doing everything you could to help ryden win the contract i was doing everything i could to be helpful to ryden
00:52:38 ryden to help ryden win the contract mr harris i helped ryden and if they went forward and won the contract then then great but you know i was doing my job sir
00:52:48 job sir at the time to help ride yes to help ryden but you were offering to help give them more help than the potential competitors for this contract weren't you as we can see yes
00:53:00 weren't you as we can see yes yes and that was because i would suggest uh you were helping them win the contract
00:53:09 we can't help them win the contract their their tender with the client is between them and the client and we we can't
00:53:15 can't we can't help that process and what we're trying to be is helpful to ryden so that whatever they put forward that may be helpful to them but what they propose in their tenure is
00:53:26 what they propose in their tenure is absolutely between them and the client let's look at mr lawrence's reply to you of the same day top of the page please mark thanks for letting me know i hope you were as vague with your price for them whilst inflating it also double exclamation
00:53:39 inflating it also double exclamation mark
00:53:39 mark what did you understand mr lawrence reply to mean there don't know what he meant by that but uh um i can assure you that we didn't do any of that
00:53:51 was it usual the time for you to collaborate with a potential main contractor to this extent when preparing your own bid
00:54:00 bid yeah i think over the years there's been um we've had similar close relationships with the likes of weights on particular projects um on the little venice project we're very close to
00:54:11 venice project we're very close to weights for example um it does come a point in the process where a main contractor will favor or identify a preferred subcontractor and
00:54:23 identify a preferred subcontractor and to give you an example of that we with ryden
00:54:27 ryden and we went after the bid for guys hospital refurbishment um and in that particular instance the main contractor had to declare to the client their preferred choice of
00:54:38 to the client their preferred choice of cladding contractor during the tender phase
00:54:40 phase and that was us with ryden so it's not unusual
00:54:44 unusual for that process to happen well we know that weights you knew that weights were tendering for grenfell
00:54:51 grenfell you've given that them as an example in in the little venice project why did you prefer to work why did you uh
00:54:59 uh assist ryden to win the contract and not give weights the same assistance well we'd have been delighted to have weights but they withdrew from tendering well let's see um at uh har50913
00:55:17 uh this is an email of the 7th of february 2014 and you i think tell simon lawrence here
00:55:29 uh about uh about the progress and you say just another quick update on what we know so far
00:55:38 far according to keep moat they declined in the end due to tender time scales as did weights
00:55:44 weights i believe this this leaves you guys durkin and mullally i spoke with mulally yesterday and the chat there said he'd been busy on another tender i won't get around to looking at it until early next week durkheim are the only ones who've shown
00:55:55 durkheim are the only ones who've shown any interest but at all but to be honest they've
00:55:57 they've no pedigree with this type of work hopefully
00:56:01 hopefully all this means that ryden will be in a strong position it's all down to you now simon
00:56:05 simon no pressure now
00:56:13 can we take it from this email that you were at this stage to put it colloquially ryden's self-appointed spy to report back to ryden what you knew about the bidding position of the other
00:56:24 about the bidding position of the other bidders on the project
00:56:27 i wouldn't cast myself as a self-appointed spy at all um i think you find in the world of contracting main contractors subcontractors um they'll all be telling each other all
00:56:39 um they'll all be telling each other all sorts of things all the time this goes on all the time and where there'll be bits of industry or market intel that people share with each other this is absolutely the way the industry
00:56:52 this is absolutely the way the industry works
00:56:53 works well we haven't seen any uh emails between you and people at dirk can or mulally or keep moat
00:57:01 keep moat or weights telling each of them what the other bidders were doing is that because you weren't telling keep boat dirk and mulally what each of the other bidders were doing respectively
00:57:13 doing respectively no we weren't because we our relationship we had the historic relationship with brighton yes
00:57:19 yes and in fact mr harris isn't that entirely encapsulated by the last sentence of this email and your word hopefully you wanted ryden to win this contract
00:57:30 to win this contract and were giving them inside information about the other bidders and what you knew about them in order to help them we hope the bryden would win it yes and we're giving them information that you
00:57:41 we're giving them information that you knew
00:57:42 knew about from the other bidders in order to help them
00:57:45 help them well i'm not sure how much help that was i mean they won't know what the other bidders did and we played it very fair and square we bid
00:57:55 bid everybody on the same basis with the original specification we didn't show favoritism because we can't do that that's not tender protocol and also um for all we knew
00:58:06 for all we knew durka normally or somebody else could win the job and we would want to pursue it with them yeah you didn't provide any of these other potential main contractors with the detail and
00:58:18 main contractors with the detail and quantity of the information that you were providing to write them did you no or all the information about what the other potential main contractors were doing
00:58:31 can we turn to ryden's tender please this is a rt402087
00:58:50 please this is a rt402087 this is the first page of the tender submission and just for your assistance it's dated the 13th of february 2014.
00:59:02 uh if we go to page well general question i should ask first did you provide any assistance to ryden with information about harley or the cladding
00:59:13 cladding um subcontract when uh when ryden put this
00:59:17 this document together no i've never seen this document either oh you've never seen it okay well then i could take this very quickly i think can you look at page 44
00:59:32 i think can you look at page 44 and this is uh part of the document which describes harley curtin wall limited and it says supply chain
00:59:43 supply chain partner to ride in construction is that correct that at this stage 13th of february 2014 harley curtin wall were in one way or
00:59:55 harley curtin wall were in one way or another a supply chain partner to ride in construction well i think these documents are from the guys tower contender
01:00:04 contender i think they've used them from there
01:00:08 that's the supposition you've made just looking at the document now is it is because on that particular issue as i explained earlier um on that particular tender with guys tower
01:00:20 with guys tower um ryden and harley were
01:00:24 partnered up because that's that was the nature of the tender the tenderest had to
01:00:29 to disclose to the client who their preferred
01:00:32 preferred size contractor was for that project so they had to insert this type of information and i recognize that and i'm pretty sure that was from that tender submission i see so
01:00:43 see so i think perhaps my next question which was how can you explain how mr ankertle james's cv details as we see on this page here came to be in this document if they hadn't been provided by harley for this
01:00:54 hadn't been provided by harley for this purpose
01:00:56 purpose well to say i'm pretty sure that they were from another project on which we were the supply chain partner because that was the nature of that particular tender did you know mr harris that ryden were going
01:01:08 you know mr harris that ryden were going to be
01:01:09 to be using the information from the guys tower
01:01:12 tower tender document and simply insert it into the grenfell tower tender
01:01:22 document
01:01:26 [Applause] now
01:01:29 now [Applause]
01:01:36 just going back if i can to the other tenderers
01:01:40 tenderers can i ask you to look at tmo zero zero eight five zero three five eight
01:01:52 eight five zero three five eight and this is an email mr harris you will not have seen or certainly not at the time from jenny jackson
01:02:00 jackson of the tmo to claire williams and david gibson of the 15th of january 2014. so it's about a month before the ride and tender document we've just seen
01:02:12 and tender document we've just seen and so during the tender process and she says here there were a number of reasons that keepmate withdrew from the tender process i'm grateful that they shared these with us
01:02:23 these with us i think these were they were mentioned to me in confidence and therefore we need to be careful how stroke if they are circulated concerns included
01:02:32 included noise implications from the drilling with residents in occupation concerns from the mechanical contractor read the interface of the old and new systems
01:02:40 systems restricted space for the mechanical works lack of time for the cladding specialist to undertake all the investigations needed specification of a new type of panel congested egress and the normal risks
01:02:52 congested egress and the normal risks gaining access to residential properties not a key reason overall this is viewed as a
01:02:57 as a high risk in quotation marks job and keep mode already has a strong order book for the next 12 months trust this is helpful
01:03:06 were concerns similar to this expressed to you
01:03:10 to you by anybody at keep moat [Applause] no can you help me with what lack of time for the cladding
01:03:21 with what lack of time for the cladding specialist to undertake all the investigations needed might mean and i know you didn't see this email at the time but this was clearly
01:03:31 clearly a problem which keepmote saw did you see that there was a problem in lack of time for harley to undertake all the investigations you needed
01:03:43 i actually don't know what they mean by investigation so i i can't really answer it because i don't understand what they mean did you were you talking to keep mode as the potential cladding
01:03:54 potential cladding specialist subcontractor on this job we must have done at some point we must have done yeah but i certainly didn't get involved in
01:04:06 certainly didn't get involved in conversations like that because i couldn't have answered that anyway but i don't actually know what they mean by investigations right so do i take it from that that you never said to keep moat we haven't got enough time to undertake
01:04:17 we haven't got enough time to undertake our investigations not personally no and do we take it from that they'll keep keep note never expressed to you that they were concerned that you didn't have enough time to undertake investigations
01:04:30 enough time to undertake investigations i don't recall that happening what about specification of a new panel did you ever have any discussions with keep mode about concerns arising from the specification of a new type of
01:04:41 from the specification of a new type of panel
01:04:43 panel i don't recall anything obviously several years ago so i am struggling on some of these things but i don't remember it but yeah it's it's several years
01:04:55 yeah it's it's several years ago now so um
01:04:59 she says that they had said that they'd you know overall they had viewed it as a high-risk
01:05:04 high-risk job were you aware of grenfell tower being viewed as a high-risk job by other potential main contractors such as keep mode i don't call that being um you know that
01:05:16 i don't call that being um you know that that term being used by anybody do you did you or anyone else at harley to your knowledge share any concern that the grenfell tower subcontract was a high risk job
01:05:27 high risk job i don't think we viewed it as a high risk job i mean all jobs have risk and it depends how you determine um what is high risk i mean everything is high risk because you're working on high rise so there's
01:05:38 you're working on high rise so there's obvious dangers involved with high-rise buildings but in terms of
01:05:42 terms of um grenfell being any more higher risk than any other tower block i would say not
01:05:50 not in my question i use the word subcontract i meant main contract but but i i i take it from your answer that
01:05:57 that the answer would be the same yeah it is it was no more from a harley point view it wasn't viewed as any more high risk than any of the other taobao projects
01:06:08 than any of the other taobao projects that have been undertaken can i then turn to a slightly different topic which is cost savings can i ask you to go to h a r
01:06:19 can i ask you to go to h a r 3010160 your sales progress form and look at page four
01:06:30 and i'd like to look at february the 3rd of february 2014 and the entry there
01:06:37 third of february 2014 on page four mah call you see that received from scott mcdonald at durkheim [Music]
01:06:49 [Music] and then underneath that file note ma email sent to katie at ryden with cost savings for alternative solutions for the internal reveal liners
01:07:02 m.a is that mike albiston
01:07:18 sorry there's a pause let me try and get do this this way let's look at ryd402720
01:07:54 ryd46020
01:07:59 this should be an email from mike albiston
01:08:05 right mike alderstein third of february to katie bashalia at ryden copper to simon lawrence and you and here you can see some detailed uh cost information based on your
01:08:16 uh cost information based on your quotation
01:08:17 quotation you see that and here are some prices for indo reveals and you describe these in your note as cost savings
01:08:28 cost savings so as we've just seen and my question is did you or mike albiston offer these cost savings to the other potential main
01:08:37 oh contractors don't know i can't remember
01:08:40 remember we've seen no uh evidence of it would would it surprise you that you you didn't offer these cost savings to any of the other main contractors um not if they hadn't
01:08:51 main contractors um not if they hadn't have asked for them if this is something that ryden has thought about themselves and nobody else have requested it then i wouldn't be surprised no can we then turn to an email at har500
01:09:09 page one
01:09:19 this is an email of the 17th of april 2014
01:09:23 2014 uh from simon lawrence to you copy to mike alberston mark thanks for this and this is um in relation to some ferrier point cladding details
01:09:34 ferrier point cladding details i've spoken to bruce studio e architects this afternoon i've confirmed that i'm happy for him to contact yourselves but to ensure i'm copied in so we keep some sort of protocol guidelines from the start
01:09:45 the start and then you talk about the dropbox files and then he says one thing i would ask which i'm sure you'll do anyway is that anything financial
01:09:55 financial stays between ourselves
01:09:59 [Applause] and we can see your reply at ryd5403891
01:10:14 ryd403891
01:10:20 and you say to him simon duly noted and understood what did you understand mr lawrence to mean by his comment that anything financial stays between
01:10:31 that anything financial stays between you and him well that's fairly standard to be honest with the main contractor um it's it's it's between us and them that's the business of harley
01:10:42 and them that's the business of harley ryden or
01:10:43 ryden or harley and any other main contractor um and it's it's it's up to ryden who they share that information with it's not for us to do that um at this point um so yeah i think
01:10:55 um at this point um so yeah i think that's fairly standard protocol any main contractor would have been asking the same thing why would mr lawrence be so concerned to ensure that financial arrangements were not disclosed to bruce zones
01:11:07 not disclosed to bruce zones because they were confidential between our our respective companies
01:11:18 and is that because you didn't want them to see the true financial position as between you
01:11:29 can i ask you to look at ryd-404204
01:11:50 this is an email which you weren't sent sent by from zach maynard to steve blake uh but both at ryden 8th of may 2014. we can see here that
01:12:01 8th of may 2014. we can see here that zach maynard sets out a range of proposed
01:12:03 proposed savings with a harley figure in brackets and we've been through this evidence with both mr blake and mr maynard mr harris
01:12:14 harris mr blake confirmed in his evidence that ryden were intending on passing only some of the savings on to the tmo
01:12:22 the tmo that you harley had offered them in respect of these cladding options and intended to retain the difference the first question is did you know that at the time
01:12:34 at the time no
01:12:40 i see then the second question doesn't arise
01:12:43 arise can i then ask you about the nbs specification and the preparation of the bid and i'm going to start by taking you to your statement
01:12:52 statement paragraph 19 page 5 please
01:13:06 [Applause]
01:13:10 uh and here you say i believe that the tender package for the grenfell tower refurbishment was released around the end of december 2013 january 2014 and 14. i don't
01:13:21 2013 january 2014 and 14. i don't remember
01:13:21 remember the exact contents of that tender package but typically such packages would include drawings of elevations section and floor plans and the nbs specification the mbs specification would contain details of proposed materials
01:13:34 details of proposed materials now that specification was sent to harley in around january 2014
01:13:41 do do you recall seeing it at the time do you think i would have been aware of the receipt of the tender package um and tender packages typically go into
01:13:53 um and tender packages typically go into the estimating department with the estimator to pull it apart see what had been received what may happen after that is that rfis which is request for information may be
01:14:06 which is request for information may be sent out
01:14:07 sent out if we require clarity on anything it's highly likely that the estimator would have referred to the technical department in harley uh if he was unsure about
01:14:19 harley uh if he was unsure about anything technically and then he would start the process of pulling the tender together i could take this shortly then did you know that
01:14:28 know that the nba specification required pricing for a zinc proteus panel supplied by kme architectural solutions yes did you know that the
01:14:40 yes did you know that the the nba specification also required bidders to include alternative quotes on the basis of um the following products or manufacturers in place of zinc proteus namely alcoa
01:14:52 in place of zinc proteus namely alcoa architectural products renault bond a luca bond spectra and vm zinc for court zinc did you know this you did did you know also that harley then art started asking
01:15:04 also that harley then art started asking for prices to provide its tender to main contractors yes which organizations did you approach in order to get those prices apart from renault bond that we've seen
01:15:16 i can't because up because i would not have sent those out um right mike was remember that better but
01:15:22 but cep would certainly be amongst that but other than that i i don't know okay let's see how far we go
01:15:30 go um could you go please to cep50267 cep50267 this is an email
01:15:41 cep50267 this is an email of the 20th of december 2013.
01:15:47 so this is before the final mbs specification came out but i think after the one of the earlier editions in november it's an email from jeff blades to mike albiston
01:15:58 albiston and copy to you
01:16:04 uh i'm sorry i think i'm looking in fact for page three first of all
01:16:11 this is jeff blades to mike albuston not copied to you that this one is not copied to you um but yeah i think you get to see it later in the chain and uh he says morning mike following my
01:16:23 and uh he says morning mike following my telephone conversation with mark harris yesterday
01:16:26 yesterday could you please forward your window and curtain wall schedule with regards to the rain screen over cladding we are to offer our system based on a cassette tray and face fixed acm
01:16:36 acm i.e rayna bond to this could you please forward
01:16:39 forward elevation drawings and any other information you feel is relevant
01:16:44 now it looks as if you'd had a telephone conversation with jeff blades on the 19th of december 2013. do you remember that conversation at all
01:16:56 did you in fact instruct mr blades to offer a system based on a cassette tray and face fixed acm i.e raynor bond i don't remember doing that i would have thought that the
01:17:08 doing that i would have thought that the um he would have been pricing in accordance with the specification did you ask mr blaze to offer uh where the cassette trail face fixed acm
01:17:20 where the cassette trail face fixed acm aluco bond
01:17:23 i don't remember doing that what about vm zinc now i don't remember the detail of the conversation to be honest
01:17:40 did you only ask mr blades to offer a system
01:17:44 system based on raynor bond and no other product
01:17:47 product well it would have been the estimator that would have dealt with the inquiry so i don't know who else you went out to i wouldn't have been determining that
01:17:56 right
01:18:00 do you can you explain why jeff blades thought that he was to offer his system based on rayner bond but no other product as it appears from this email at least
01:18:11 least i don't know can you explain why you as in harley uh asked for cassette tray as well as face fixed
01:18:23 i don't know i can't remember whether they were the options requested i don't know
01:18:31 mr mr bailey ray bailey told us yesterday that harley had never actually used a cassette fix acm cladding or fix system on any project
01:18:42 cladding or fix system on any project prior to grenfell that's is that right it sounds correct because i know uh perrier point and child cops were both but he's fixed um as was clements called
01:18:53 but he's fixed um as was clements called so
01:18:54 so i think that that sounds correct to me but you can't explain why cassette tray was asked for as well as face fixed
01:19:08 face fixed can we then scroll up and look at pages two and three side by side
01:19:17 if we can on the screen i'm not sure we can do that with what you've got but um we could see that on the 6th of january mike albuston sent the nbs specification for the rain
01:19:28 sent the nbs specification for the rain screen to jeff blades along with the elevation drawings you can see that i think from the email which starts at the bottom of page two and runs over to page three can you can you see that
01:19:39 you can you see that mr harris i can yeah yes uh and then we get the quote in response at cep
01:20:03 and here it is this is cep's quotation to harley for your attention as well as mike albiston's 21st of january 2014.
01:20:15 mike albiston's 21st of january 2014. dear sirs grant ref grenfell tower thank you for your inquiry ref the above project and we have pleasure in confirming our quotation for the design fabrication and supply only of aluminium windows and range
01:20:26 only of aluminium windows and range screen over cladding is laid out below and then he refers to the aluminium windows and explains those in the first paragraph and then halfway down the page rain screen over
01:20:38 halfway down the page rain screen over cladding panels are to be manufactured using utilizing four millimeter rayno bond acm
01:20:47 bond acm and we you can look over to the next page
01:20:57 and there are prices there or for the rain screen or a price for the rain screen range screen in the summer 525 394 pounds net
01:21:08 394 pounds net we've allowed a sum of 25 000 pounds within the above rain screen value for materials up to the crown upon receipt of further details further information this value can be firmed up this excludes any steel work that may be
01:21:20 this excludes any steel work that may be required
01:21:22 required and and uh looking down the rest of that to the end of the document you can't see any reference to any other product my question is do you know why mr blades only provided a quotation for
01:21:35 mr blades only provided a quotation for the reyno bond acm when he had been sent the full specification by mr albuston well i don't think cep fabricated the other products
01:21:46 what about a leuko bond
01:21:50 don't know about a loop bond i don't don't recall them ever fabricating a local bomb that they they may have done but i couldn't be sure on that but certainly the zinc product they would have
01:22:01 the zinc product they would have fabricated
01:22:05 no i understand the zinc product you made that clear earlier on but in relation to other acm candidates and we've seen we've seen those in the nbs but i would just really want to know why mr blades only provided a quote for rayno bond
01:22:18 only provided a quote for rayno bond that's really a question for jeff blades to be honest well my suggestion to you is that well let me ask you did you tell him to
01:22:23 him to did you tell him only to quote foreign bond well i would have told him that anyway because i'm not the estimator but to your knowledge did mike alberston tell him only to quote for rayner bond
01:22:34 only to quote for rayner bond i don't know
01:22:43 can we go to cep3050865 please mm-hmm
01:23:05 can we go to cep3050865 please mm-hmm this is his email with under which mr blade sends what we've just looked at to you and
01:23:13 you and mike albiston mike mark please find attached our quotation for the above i'll follow this with a separate window quote based on wikona it looks from this as if this was all
01:23:24 it looks from this as if this was all you were going to get from mr blades in relation to quotations for uh windscreen green screen there was going to be a separate window quote for
01:23:35 going to be a separate window quote for wikona
01:23:37 wikona so on that basis it looks as if there was only one quotation for fabrication and that was only ever based on rayna bond is that right it would seem that way yes and did you
01:23:48 it would seem that way yes and did you ever or did mike albuster never go to any other
01:23:51 any other fabricator and ask them for quotations for the other alternative rain screen cladding products specified in the nbs specification we must have done because our quotes
01:24:02 we must have done because our quotes included those so we must have done you said you must have done yeah
01:24:18 who which other let's try and get some detail here which other fabricators did you approach well i didn't think this is the problem i i i didn't do it mike did so
01:24:29 do it mike did so i'm struggling to answer because i didn't do the job i understand that right so when you say you must have done why do you say that if you don't know i'm assuming you didn't put it that way
01:24:43 i'm assuming you didn't put it that way mark's right he was based on the zinc cladding
01:24:46 cladding with options for acm so they must have come from somewhere so the the
01:24:52 the the the summit would be they must have obtained those costs from other people but just as we can see
01:25:02 can see i'm so sorry i i i spoke across you do you want to finish that
01:25:07 all right no i think i was there i think it was done all right just as we can see that you were copied into the discussions between mike albiston and cep would it not follow that you would also have been copied in
01:25:19 also have been copied in to discussions between mike albiston and any other fabricator
01:25:25 possibly um i i can't answer that i mean quite quite possibly did you have any discussions with mike albuston about conversations
01:25:36 with mike albuston about conversations with or requests for quotations from any other fabricator other than cep i'm sure we did yeah i mean nothing i explained harley was a small office and we were all on one
01:25:47 small office and we were all on one level um
01:25:48 level um all within you know a shot of each other so
01:25:51 so um we were speaking about lots of things all the time every day so we were all speaking and yeah all in one room together so it was it was
01:26:02 it was um we didn't have to write to each other or phone each other we were all in earshot
01:26:07 earshot of each other so lots of conversations would have gone on maybe they would have done i think at the very beginning of your answer the transcriber has got down inaudible but i heard you say i think we would have done as i think we
01:26:18 i think we would have done as i think we explained let me just ask the question again
01:26:21 again did you or do you recall having any discussions with mike alberston specifically about conversations with or requests for quotations from any fabricator other than cep
01:26:35 any fabricator other than cep i can't remember specific conversations i would have just those conversations did happen but i can't specifically remember them
01:26:52 can you go to cep50273 please
01:27:04 can you go to cep50273 please this is an email uh from you to jeff blade 29th of january 2014 in which you say hi jeff just to let you know the main contractor tender return date has been
01:27:16 contractor tender return date has been further extended by another week 14th of february so glad we pulled out all the stops to get a price back does that tell us that you and cep were working against a relatively tight time scale
01:27:27 scale to get the tender ready for submission
01:27:31 yeah tender periods can sometimes be rather short and as i said there you pull out all the stops so you work very hard to hit a particular date um and then once
01:27:42 hit a particular date um and then once you've got your tender together you suddenly hear that there's been an extension of time which is a bit frustrating because you you probably burnt the midnight oil to get the tender put together
01:27:53 get the tender put together when you perhaps didn't need to because there was an extension but obviously at the time
01:27:57 the time we wouldn't have known about that extension no did the pressure of time that this email indicates existed impact on the extent to which you sought quotations from other fabricators
01:28:10 quotations from other fabricators no we we're always used to working to into time scales that's the nature of uh estimating right can i ask you then to go to the tender document
01:28:21 ryd3094244 this is a slightly different question or different topic but while i'm on the subject of tender i should ask it this is ryden's tender submission and i want to get to page 15
01:28:32 submission and i want to get to page 15 please
01:28:36 page 15.
01:28:40 and here we can see ryden putting forward
01:28:43 forward uh sorry yes ryden putting forward
01:28:47 as part of his contract some analysis costs for alternative design solutions refer to drawing specification and room data sheets for the full scope of works and under cladding we can see
01:28:58 of works and under cladding we can see mr harris that there is a red in other words a discount figure or minus figure for new aluminium cladding including necessary support insulation etcetera to facilitate of
01:29:10 facilitate of 243 067 pounds do you know how that number was arrived at
01:29:19 at absolutely no idea do you know who would know how that number was arrived at i can only assume that would be um the ryden estimating department
01:29:30 ryden estimating department maybe the commercial department but
01:29:34 i'm estimating i would assume well zach maynard didn't appear to know so i'm asking you well this is this is this this is now work so um we
01:29:45 this is this this is now work so um we didn't do this so um did this zach was commercial manager so i would imagine the this was done by um
01:29:55 um ryden estimating but that's a guess i don't know would uh would ryden not have got the reduction in the price of the new aluminium cladding from you harley yes
01:30:09 from you harley yes and therefore the figure of 243 067 pounds
01:30:12 pounds would have come originally would it not from harley i don't know whether that figure came from us but any figures relating to cladding
01:30:20 cladding would have come from us but what ryden did with them after that is a matter for them no i understand that but all i'm really seeking to get from you is whether you know where that figure of 243 old thousand
01:30:32 where that figure of 243 old thousand comes from
01:30:37 can we then talk about value engineering for a moment can i ask you to go to paragraph 23 of your statement to page six
01:30:47 you say there
01:30:55 so by march 2014 it was becoming apparent that ryden was the preferred main contractor of the grenfell tower project
01:31:02 project i was also informed by simon lawrence of ryden that at that stage the project was around a million pounds over budget as such there was a real focus among amongst the various potential stakeholders on value engineering
01:31:13 stakeholders on value engineering the subject of value engineering is always driven by the client and main contractor
01:31:21 were you ever given any training on value engineering no
01:31:29 did you know that when doing value engineering you are not supposed to sacrifice functionality or safety
01:31:41 um well i think i think these days we have to call it dynamic purchasing i don't think we're allowed to call it value engineering anymore um because
01:31:52 anybody in the industry will know exactly what it's supposed to mean and what it does mean in reality and what it means to a subcontractor when somebody talks to you about value engineering means they want a reduction in price yes
01:32:08 and if you go to paragraph 46 of your statement on page 10 four pages on please
01:32:14 you say there costs undoubtedly played a significant part in determining decisions about the exterior of grenfell tower
01:32:22 tower as in many as in any other similar projects
01:32:26 projects clients continually place contractors under pressure to reduce cost this is always the primary driver from the client side as i've stated above particularly at the time that ryden looked to set to win the tender for the project there was an
01:32:38 tender for the project there was an emphasis placed on value engineering because at that stage the project was around 1 million pounds over budget um is it fair to say mr harris that cost motivated the change in rain screen
01:32:49 motivated the change in rain screen product
01:32:49 product from zinc to acm yes and i think you've told us earlier that there was no at no stage any discussion about
01:32:59 about the impact of that change into in in respect of fire safety
01:33:11 and when considering alternative products as part of the value engineering exercise so far as you are concerned
01:33:17 concerned fire safety was not considered correct uh and to your knowledge that it wasn't considered by anybody else at harley either
01:33:26 either is that right i i can't answer for other people but i don't believe it was
01:33:40 can i then go back to your sales progress report in fact i'm sorry i'm going to skip over that uh
01:33:52 i'm sorry i'm going to skip over that uh i think we've probably covered that um
01:33:58 can i ask you to look at paragraph 59 of your statement
01:34:03 at page 13.
01:34:12 you say there
01:34:16 harley was invited to tender for the window replacement and overclouding of grenfell tower by four potential main contractors one of which was ryden who were eventually appointed as the main contractor harley was in competitive tender against other
01:34:27 competitive tender against other cladding subcontractors for this work which other cladding subcontractors was hardly competing with i can't remember and i can't remember whether we knew at the time or not sometimes
01:34:38 sometimes you find this information out through um through the supply chain somebody might tell you something um somebody else their pricing i honestly can't remember whether we knew
01:34:50 honestly can't remember whether we knew or not but we knew there would be others tendering
01:34:53 tendering you say you knew they would be others did
01:34:57 did did you know that there actually were or were you just assuming that i might be i can't i would have to assume it but uh it would be um it'll be the first time that's happened if there was nobody
01:35:08 time that's happened if there was nobody else
01:35:09 else um because every job i've ever known is you're competing against other people
01:35:25 if you go back to the sales report
01:35:30 har3010160 page five please
01:35:41 har3010160 page five please um you can see that on the 12th of march 2014
01:35:45 2014 i'm sorry i'll wait for the document to come up
01:36:00 12th of march 2014
01:36:09 uh you can see that mah call you see that
01:36:12 that mah call received from simon at ryden they have received news off the record that ryden are in pole position they now await formal notification and then again next day
01:36:24 and then again next day 13th of march 2013 m-a-h-r-g-r-j-b call received from steve blake at ryden he advised that ryden have been told off the record that they are in pole position
01:36:33 position however the job is over budget ryden are attending a meeting on monday and require
01:36:37 require us to confirm available ve for them to table agree to provide this by tomorrow were you concerned or surprised that ryden had been given an informal tip-off as it were that they
01:36:49 informal tip-off as it were that they were the front-runners before the procurement process had been formally concluded not especially was that because that was normal in your experience
01:37:00 normal in your experience yeah i've heard of that many times right do you remember any further details of these discussions that you had with steve blake on the 13th of march no i don't know now in your statement of
01:37:14 no i don't know now in your statement of paragraph 23 as we've as we've seen i think already you said that simon lawrence had told you in march 2014 that the project was over budget by a million pounds and if we looked at um the
01:37:28 and if we looked at um the uh entry for the 13th of march 2014 on page five of your log your sales progress report you can see that on the 13th of march you've been told by steve blake that the job is over
01:37:39 told by steve blake that the job is over budget
01:37:40 budget was it on that occasion on the 13th of march that you were told that the job was over budget
01:37:55 that would appear so with what i've written there yes well let before before you as it were give a final answer on that let me look at let me show you page six and an entry for the 19th of march
01:38:17 and an entry for the 19th of march see if we can get clarification on this you can see that on the 19th of march uh you get a call from simon lawrence in which you're told that ryden had been confirmed officially as
01:38:28 ryden had been confirmed officially as the preferred contractor and four lines down
01:38:30 down uh it records the project is one million pounds over budget therefore ve is the key
01:38:35 key topic is that well might that have been the occasion when simon lawrence told you that the project was a million pounds over budget 19th of the age right i think so appear
01:38:46 19th of the age right i think so appear that steve telling me that it was over budget and then it appears that same followed up by simon
01:38:52 simon telling me how much it was over budget right so it seemed there was a bit more detail than simon what was your understanding of the client's budget at that stage
01:39:04 client's budget at that stage well i didn't know the sum of money just that it was a million pounds over but over what i don't know did that strike you was a lot
01:39:14 no not after 32 years i'm afraid no it didn't
01:39:18 didn't did you feel under pressure to provide significant savings on the tender price
01:39:25 when this type of call comes in um you can't immediately say what you can save but it's it happens on every single job so to the extent
01:39:36 every single job so to the extent i would say that if somebody run up and said you've got your quote here thanks very much we want to place an order i think you would panic because it just doesn't happen you expect the call coming
01:39:48 expect the call coming you're too expensive you need to find some money that just happens on all tenders it's standard though those sort of calls coming in are just that they just happen on every job
01:39:59 that they just happen on every job and then it's a matter of how much is it over budget and then it's a matter of well let's see what we can do because you know when you look at it logically
01:40:08 logically it tells you that you're not going to find a million pounds but let's see what we can do and obviously it's not just planning there are other packages on that project so they weren't just looking at cladding being a million pounds they
01:40:20 cladding being a million pounds they were trying to find a million pounds overall
01:40:22 overall so ryden's no doubt i don't know but i would imagine they had that same conversation with other contractors and said the same thing to all of us can we go to ryd403315 please
01:40:46 ryd four zero is three three one five
01:40:56 this is an email from you to steve blake
01:41:01 dated the 14th of march 2014 and 14 but to which you attach a document called
01:41:08 called proposed ve cost savings steve please find the first round of ve options attached to grenfell tower is being presented to show the value of
01:41:19 is being presented to show the value of the compliant package with ve cost options below the cladding is shown with four options for the main zinc areas at the risk of stating the obvious the claddings the cladding savings are not cumulative only one of the four options can be
01:41:31 only one of the four options can be selected
01:41:34 uh you can read the rest of the email but i just want to ask you about the set of value engineering savings
01:41:41 savings first of all um well let's look at the document um if we can and then i'll come back to the email
01:41:49 email the document is ryd four zeros three three one five i'm sorry four zeros three three one six can we just look at that
01:42:09 did you compile this document
01:42:13 i i would imagine the estimator did it um
01:42:17 um i don't remember doing it personally i think it was probably the estimator say mike albiston yes yes yeah and did you
01:42:24 you did you discuss it with him or see it before it went out oh yes yes right so you were happy with it did you understand how he'd uh prepared it yes you did so you understood the basis of the numbers did
01:42:36 understood the basis of the numbers did you
01:42:37 you i did
01:42:40 do you know what prompted harley to prepare this document uh what brightons were asking is to um do you know who asked you to
01:42:51 do you know who asked you to that would have started life with simon
01:42:54 lawrence now going back to the email if we can at ryd
01:43:01 ryd 403315 we'll come back to this budget in a moment
01:43:04 a moment um you say in the second main paragraph there
01:43:09 there with regard you say with regards to the planners and what they will accept having never met the plan as it's difficult for us to comment however when we met the architect it has to be said that they were somewhat precious
01:43:20 precious about retaining the spec for the zinc cladding but no doubt budget will be the driver here is that a reference to the hayes galleria meeting on the 27th of september 2013.
01:43:32 um
01:43:37 i don't know that it was a specific reference about that to be honest uh i see so when we met the architect could could refer is this right to any number of meetings between september
01:43:48 any number of meetings between september 2013
01:43:50 2013 and march 2014. absolutely it could have been yeah
01:43:54 been yeah it might be is there a particular occasion is there a particular occasion when you
01:43:58 when you you formed the view that uh studio e was were being in your words somewhat precious about retaining the spec for zinc well i think any architect and we do respect this but if any
01:44:11 and we do respect this but if any architect that's come up with a concept design they do become precious about it and i can understand that because if there were no budget and they were left with a free hand to design what they want
01:44:22 they want and they would go to town and because that's what they do that's an architect and then along comes a client
01:44:29 client and a contractor and starts telling them it can't be afforded so they do get precious about their schemes but my question is my question i'm sorry to cut you off my question was whether there was a particular occasion when you
01:44:40 there was a particular occasion when you formed
01:44:40 formed the view that studio you were being precious if it wasn't the third if it wasn't the september hayes galleria meeting was it a specific occasion later i can't recall age
01:44:51 occasion later i can't recall age specific occasion to be honest in your experience was budget normally the driver for decisions as to which cladding product to use
01:45:00 yes
01:45:05 and then you go on to say i'd be surprised
01:45:09 surprised this is the last cent last paragraph in the second line i'd be surprised if they would accept rayno bond with a standard paint finish however we've included it as one of the options on the basis that a significant cost saving can be made
01:45:20 a significant cost saving can be made although the attached state standard silver finish any of the standard acm colors
01:45:24 colors would be available at the same rate
01:45:28 given that you knew that studio is to use your words precious preference was for zinc why did you include acn materials
01:45:36 materials here in this in this value engineering exercise does the client had a million pound problem right and the way to solve it was acm
01:45:48 right and the way to solve it was acm and not zinc is that the blunt answer right well that's it's part of the solution yes can we can we then get back to the value engineering sheet that you attached
01:46:00 engineering sheet that you attached three three one six ryd403316
01:46:07 now this is march 2014. and you can see there under proposed ve cost savings the third item fourth item fifth and
01:46:18 the third item fourth item fifth and sixth
01:46:18 sixth down the last four under that um are all reno bond products aren't they yes why were all of those um revised prices or
01:46:29 prices or um value engineering figures based only on rainer bond products
01:46:36 um i don't i think we we've done an awful lot of work with uh renovond up to that point and um they've been very very helpful indeed so
01:46:47 they've been very very helpful indeed so and we continue with them does that tell us that when looking at preparing
01:46:52 preparing value engineering as you would call it or one might call it options in respect of the rain screen you didn't look at any other products
01:47:03 you didn't look at any other products such as aluco bond or vm
01:47:07 well vm is is not an acm anyway but i think i think in terms of other acms what we could have done there in hindsight looking at it now we could have said acm natural sync
01:47:18 we could have said acm natural sync acm standard silver because um that that makes it more generic but we've used renault bond as a name um in hindsight we could have used um as
01:47:29 um in hindsight we could have used um as i say
01:47:29 i say acm as a generic term which would have meant we could have spoken to others but we chose in this particular instance to to name renabond did you make any investigations as to whether a cheaper alternative could be
01:47:40 whether a cheaper alternative could be found with any other manufacturer of acm panels
01:47:43 panels i'm sure we would have done yeah i'm sure we would have talked to you sure you would have done do you remember actually doing so i don't but those sort of conversations go on on every job
01:47:55 go on on every job so it was very unlikely that we would not have spoken to other people
01:48:05 uh can we go back to your tender stroke sales progress report har3010160 page six please
01:48:34 uh you can see that here on the 19th of march
01:48:40 at the top of the page we just looked at this um you took the call from simon lawrence
01:48:46 lawrence and he refers in the first line to a meeting which took place yesterday with the client do you see that yes do you have any knowledge yourself of what took place at the meeting he was
01:48:57 of what took place at the meeting he was referring to there named the meeting on the 18th of march
01:49:06 turning to an email then of the of the 19th of march
01:49:12 har406044
01:49:26 this is an email from you to ray bailey copy to others within harley ray update from ryden's following their meeting yesterday
01:49:35 yesterday so this is the reference to the 18th of march meeting which mr lawrence had been referring to ryden have now
01:49:42 have now been told officially that they are in pole position as preferred contractor this will be signed off on the 28th after which ryden will be issued with some sort of design order to allow appointment to the architect studio e will be innovated across
01:49:53 studio e will be innovated across under a dmb contract and then you say as predicted the main bid is over budget and they are looking at the ve options which include cladding i believe the overall product is circa
01:50:04 i believe the overall product is circa 10 million pounds and they are one million pounds over budget riding the key to push this job down the face fixed acm route with the standard color finish i've asked deb french to organize a
01:50:15 i've asked deb french to organize a range of samples which can create a zinc appearance but whilst based on standard prices
01:50:19 prices this will be our starting point
01:50:24 just looking at the 10 million pound figure around 10 million pounds how did you come to that belief i don't know i must have got a steer from somebody but i don't remember right
01:50:36 i don't remember right what was your understanding of why ryden wanted to push for face fixed acm at this stage uh they had obviously we did um check our state which was five towers
01:50:48 our state which was five towers and a ferry a point we've done six blocks we played fixed acn so that that that would have been driving their desire to go down that route right did you ask
01:50:59 you ask deborah french only to provide samples sorry sorry i'll ask that question again um was deborah french the only person you approached to provide you with acm samples
01:51:10 samples i can't remember
01:51:14 mr chairman we're slightly mid-topic here but i'm looking at the clock yes it's about time we had a break i was thinking
01:51:22 thinking well if it's not going to end conveniently too much no mr chairman it's
01:51:26 it's nice well uh mr harris it's time we had a bit of a break i think so we'll do that now we'll come back at 20 to
01:51:33 20 to 4 please give you time for a cup of tea i hope
01:51:38 i hope and please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything related to it all right good thank you very much to four then please
02:08:25 good mr harris there you are are you ready to go on yes can can you see me yes yes we can we have you in we have you in the corner of our
02:08:36 of our screen because we can then see you giving your evidence well we've also got the document up okay all right yes no problem right okay can you see mr millett he's
02:08:48 right okay can you see mr millett he's about to ask you a question you can good thank you very much when we go there yes thank you very much mr chairman mr harris welcome back can i just then
02:08:56 just then take you i was mid flow on a honest topic but i could finish this off i think quite shortly can you please look at h.a.r.50931
02:09:07 can you please look at h.a.r.50931 please this is an email that you sent to simon lawrence on the 22nd of april
02:09:16 2014. and just to set this in context uh you are asked by him on that day for some thoughts particularly around
02:09:28 for some thoughts particularly around cost i think you'll probably need to go to the next part of page one just for the context of this email and in fact even on to the bottom of onto page two
02:09:39 onto page two where bruce sohn sent simon lawrence an email on that day asking him about metallics do you see that that's the context and
02:09:50 do you see that that's the context and then simon lawrence pings this on to you asking for your help particularly around cos if we just go back to page one
02:10:04 and he says thoughts please particularly around cost now your response to him is you say simon by far the easiest way for us to respond is for me to afford a copy of bruce's email to deb french at
02:10:15 copy of bruce's email to deb french at alcoa
02:10:16 alcoa the rainer bond lady for comment regarding cost i'll do that straight away
02:10:19 away we've probably got some of the metallic examples already in our collection at harley house i'll take a look and let you know
02:10:25 you know and then you talk about brushed look and then in the third paragraph you say i would prefer to to try and stick with rayner bond if poss nothing wrong with the luca bond of course
02:10:35 course but i'm not sure we can manage the cost so well if we go that route is that why you wanted to stick with rayna bond because you weren't sure that you could manage the cost so well
02:10:47 the cost so well i think that's what the company wanted to stick with it wasn't a personal preference it was a company all right well whether it's you or harley i'm not sure makes a difference to my question but is the answer to my question yes
02:10:59 question yes that that you that harley wanted to try to stick with rayner bond if possible because it wouldn't be able to cos manage the cost so well otherwise correct yeah
02:11:12 had you actually made any investigations into
02:11:16 into the costs management of the aluko bond product
02:11:21 don't recall doing that myself that if that would have been the estimator if anybody had done that what were your concerns regarding the management of costs if a luco bond had been chosen
02:11:32 costs if a luco bond had been chosen instead of rayna bond well i think you're so cost sensitive this job as we've already seen it was so vastly over budget um that we just had
02:11:43 vastly over budget um that we just had to be very careful and that because we had um you know a portfolio of projects um that have been done mainly using a renabond
02:11:52 renabond product and they were proving themselves to be very keen in terms of price and were very keen on the job so we just felt that that would be the best route to get the best price
02:12:04 route to get the best price you felt that it would be the best route to get the best price but does that tell us that you didn't actually investigate that by doing an actual comparison exercise by asking a luca bond whether they could match or better
02:12:15 they could match or better what you were being offered by rayna bond i can't remember whether we did or not to be honest and we we may have done we may not not done i honestly can't remember right
02:12:26 done i honestly can't remember right okay
02:12:27 okay [Applause] can i then turn to a different uh topic um can i ask you to go to cep50280
02:12:55 this is an email from you to deborah french at alcoa of the 23rd of feb of april 2014. copy to jeff blades hi deb another item for grenfell tower
02:13:07 hi deb another item for grenfell tower can you send me the following please one copy of reyna bond bba certificate and then there are two other items there is a meeting with the planners a week on friday to try and get samples etc signed
02:13:18 friday to try and get samples etc signed off
02:13:19 off what prompted you to ask deborah french for the bba certificate for rayner bond um i must have been asked for it by either
02:13:30 i must have been asked for it by either ryden's um or bdoe or possibly studio e through ryden's so we must have been requested that information does that tell us that you wouldn't have
02:13:41 does that tell us that you wouldn't have asked for this ordinarily even without being prompted well we may have done it at some point i'm sure we did at some point in you know
02:13:52 the company's involvement with those sort of products um we probably would have all the technical guys would have looked at those sort of bits of information um but it was probably just a very quick means to an end
02:14:04 a very quick means to an end um if it's been requested for me to just ask debbie for it because she would have it immediately at hand
02:14:11 hand so that was just a you know a means to an end does that explain why you who have no technical qualifications were the one requesting the certificate rather than for example daniel ankital jones
02:14:22 jones correct now you describe it as the uh
02:14:31 well you just you say copy of rayna bond bba certificate now at this stage you were discussing a number of different colors and finishes was it your understanding that there was only one certificate that covered all
02:14:43 only one certificate that covered all panels or did you think that there was a particular certificate that covered the particular different colors of panels you were after or were discussing sorry i wouldn't have known to be honest
02:14:54 sorry i wouldn't have known to be honest um
02:14:55 um i i haven't i only ever knew that there was apart from different colors um as far as i was concerned there was one type of um brenda bond acn so i believed i was
02:15:07 um brenda bond acn so i believed i was asking for that certificate right now you included mike albuston in this email why was that budget being the estimator just just keep the game copied in
02:15:18 keep the game copied in and we could see that you included jeff blades in this email as a copy why did you do that again a matter of courtesy because he got fairly involved with the job so is it just
02:15:29 just why did why did jeff blades did you think
02:15:32 think need to see the bba certificate um i'm not sure i did particularly it was just a courtesy right we can then turn to mrs french's reply
02:15:44 we can then turn to mrs french's reply cep50281
02:15:49 and we can see from that that
02:15:54 just wait for it to come up on the screen she replies the same day to you and copy to mike alberson and jeff blades in the same way that you had uh copied them in
02:16:06 that you had uh copied them in and she attacked me she attaches the bba certificate as you can see as well as the warranty and some color charts
02:16:15 charts and she says hi mark as per your couple of emails i've attached copies of our rainer bond bba specimen warranty we will supply the original warranty once we've produced and shipped material etc
02:16:30 when that came to you did you open the attachment and look at the certificate itself
02:16:38 um i can't remember quite possibly let's see if it jogs your memory har50 3 please
02:17:01 3 please that's certainly a document i've seen before um
02:17:04 before um whether it is on that day with that email or not i don't know that i have seen that before right do you think you'd seen it before april 2014 i don't know honestly don't know doing
02:17:15 i don't know honestly don't know doing the best you can and i know it's difficult
02:17:17 difficult when do you think you might first have seen this document i honestly can't remember it may have been without email right um but yeah whether it was or not
02:17:28 right um but yeah whether it was or not obviously uh yeah i i i can't remember do you recall a time whether this occasion or any other that you read it through
02:17:39 no i wouldn't i wouldn't have read it through because that would only ever be a technical person that would do that i could read it but i wouldn't be able to technically assess it um so i can read it but that's all i could do
02:17:51 all i could do right could you go to page three
02:17:59 please
02:18:05 you can see from paragraph 1.1 under description the that the panels comprise two half millimeter thick aluminium alloy sheets bonded to either side of a core of low
02:18:16 bonded to either side of a core of low density polyethylene the panels are available either plain edge riveted system or flange cassette system
02:18:22 system to suit architectural requirements a duragloss or pvdf coating available of various colors protects the exposed face a polyester primer protects the unexposed face
02:18:33 primer protects the unexposed face the products are also available in a fire retardant grade now you told us earlier this morning that you weren't aware of the availability of these panels in a fire retardant grade or form
02:18:47 but you did get this document um did you ever see from this document that in fact these products are or were available in a fire retardant grade
02:18:57 grade yeah does that tell us that you didn't read
02:19:01 read at least page three of this document i probably didn't read it i probably just glanced at it because it it wouldn't be a type of document that i would read right it's not part of my remit
02:19:15 right it's not part of my remit and even if i hadn't read it then you know i'm not a qualified person so it would be within my remit to look at documents of this nature yes i see so [Applause]
02:19:27 [Applause] does this does that tell us that the descriptions of the fire performance of this panel on this certificate were not anything that you
02:19:37 that you um noticed or addressed your mind to at any time
02:19:46 before i leave it i suppose i just ought to put the point to you can you go back to page one please
02:19:54 um three quarters of the way down that page on the key factors assessed you'll see there's the third item down behavior in relation to fire in relation to the building's regulation building regulations for reaction to
02:20:05 building regulations for reaction to fire the panels may be regarded as having a class naught surface in england and wales is that something you saw in the certificate when you got it i may have done i don't
02:20:16 when you got it i may have done i don't know
02:20:17 know if you did did it mean anything to you i'd i'd heard of the the term classo in connection with spread of flame um
02:20:28 in connection with spread of flame um but i
02:20:28 but i you know i'm not not being uh technical in nature um i couldn't have explained it necessarily but i did know you know i didn't know of the
02:20:39 did know you know i didn't know of the term classo for what it's worth what did it mean to you
02:20:45 um not not a great deal to be honest because
02:20:50 because i would never have been involved in that level of
02:20:54 level of information this was not part of my remit
02:20:59 and i'd like to ask you some questions now about
02:21:03 now about insulation um can we turn first to cel409973
02:21:32 this is uh celetex salesforce entry and if we look at page two of that please uh we can see that your name is mentioned in relation to a meeting on the 24th of november
02:21:46 uh with celotex and i'll help you find that um it's uh about halfway just below halfway down
02:21:57 about halfway just below halfway down the page
02:21:58 the page if in fact that could be scrolled down you can see on the very right-hand side a number of date entries 24th of november 2014 and if you read from the right hand column
02:22:09 if you read from the right hand column where the dates are across there's the first entry uh mark harris you see
02:22:14 you see to do with the premiere in terminal 4 heathrow you see that yeah do you remember a meeting with celetex on the 24th of november 2014.
02:22:25 celetex on the 24th of november 2014. i really don't do you remember meeting a man called jonathan room at harley house on that date i really don't i mean i've met jonathan before because he was with
02:22:36 before because he was with another company prior to celetech so i know the individual um i can't even remember what the project is premiere in t4 to be honest um so
02:22:47 premiere in t4 to be honest um so i mean it's possible but i don't remember it can we look at ceo6018 please
02:23:05 can we look at ceo6018 please this is an email from jonathan room to daniel ankita jones
02:23:12 uh dated the same date uh 24th of november 2014 recording the meeting at harley house and he says hi dan i spoke with mark and the team regarding a few projects
02:23:23 the team regarding a few projects grenfell tower premier house chartwell south end and premier in terminal four heath rowe um do you remember meeting mark
02:23:35 do you remember meeting mark at meeting jonathan room and discussing any of these uh projects i think that's more likely to be mark stapley than me all right let's then move on to
02:23:48 than me all right let's then move on to the next page page two of this
02:23:54 um this is the day before 23rd of november 2014 from jonathan room uh to daniel anchored jones i've just thought it would be better to catch up with mark
02:24:05 better to catch up with mark and mark in the office or would you be able to meet in london after 2pm was one of the marks you yeah it would have been yeah
02:24:17 and if we go then to the top email if we can go to the top email on that on cel 18 top of page one
02:24:33 where he says hi dan i spoke with mark and the team
02:24:40 was that you do you think
02:24:44 i i can't remember but it wouldn't be even if a manufacturer was to come in to the office to see um let's say they were seeing the drawing office or the technical guys
02:24:56 technical guys and they would often poke their head in to see me
02:24:59 to see me and just say what are you guys tendering at the moment anything we can help you with
02:25:03 with so i may have been in the building i don't remember attending that meeting because it sounds like and that's specific to something the designers were looking at but i may well have been in the building and he may have may have well
02:25:15 and he may have may have well spoken to me for five minutes while he was there do you remember mr room whether on this occasion or any other occasion giving you any assurances about celetex rs 5000 suitability for
02:25:28 about celetex rs 5000 suitability for use on high-rise buildings well he would have done that to me i'd have been the wrong man to talk to about that to be honest so no did you ever did you ever meet mr room while he was at celetex
02:25:41 i don't remember specifically meeting him because harley was a small office he may well have turned up or probably did turn up disgusted with other people so i would have been in the room might have been in the building as it were
02:25:53 have been in the building as it were but uh i don't believe i attended any meetings
02:25:57 meetings specifically with that job in the last answer but one you said well he would have done that to me i would have been the wrong man to talk to
02:26:08 talk to do you mean he he wouldn't have spoken to you
02:26:11 to you about the or given you assurances about the suitability of rs 5000 on high-rise buildings
02:26:18 buildings i've been highly unlikely because i wouldn't have been asking him um technically related questions yes i just wanted to clarify that for the transcript so thank you
02:26:34 the transcript so thank you can i then turn to some questions about rockwool
02:26:37 rockwool can i start by taking you to ryd409096
02:26:49 can i start by taking you to ryd409096 this is an email sent on the 18th of june 2014
02:26:56 as you can see
02:27:00 uh uh from simon lawrence to you hi mark following our discussion about green deal installers i've had a conversation with tom elliott of rockwell c bottom email and given him
02:27:12 of rockwell c bottom email and given him your details to discuss products and how it will fit within the grant funding he seems very helpful as you'd expect when trying to sell a product but also knows about grant funding we may need to get a relationship with him and rein a bond
02:27:23 bond if any grant funding is to be achieved he could also be a very good contact for all of us in the future as he only deals with the occupied tower tower block work so we'll know probably before any of us who is getting work
02:27:34 before any of us who is getting work done
02:27:37 done and what he does does mr lawrence is to forward you an approach that claire williams at the tmo had had from tom elliott
02:27:42 elliott at rockwool as we look down and if we look at page two of this email chain
02:27:55 tom elliott is writing to claire williams at the tmo and in the third paragraph he says all stone
02:28:03 stone wool insulation comes with a euro-class fire rating of a1 and therefore our systems are particularly suited to high-rise refurbishment in accordance with br135 i was hoping to inquire whether any specification had yet been set for the
02:28:15 specification had yet been set for the insulated
02:28:16 insulated range screen being installed on the grenfell tower refurbishment now when you got this email via simon lawrence as i've just shown you did you scroll down and read it all i probably
02:28:29 scroll down and read it all i probably would have glanced at it because i know that um
02:28:34 that um pink involved with very appoint um there was eco funding granted on that project and so rydens have been through this process once because it's the main contraction that tends to drive this so i wasn't totally shocked
02:28:47 this so i wasn't totally shocked to see an email coming through raising the subject of potential grant funding for the client but i
02:28:54 but i probably wouldn't got into the detail of it right
02:28:58 it right on ferry a point you were using uh mineral wool weren't you yeah uh and acm made by rayner bond uh it was either bond or a luca bond i
02:29:11 uh it was either bond or a luca bond i can't remember okay do you remember out of interest
02:29:20 whether the grant funding was given one of the terms of the grant funding was that you should use uh rock panel instead of acm
02:29:32 uh rock panel instead of acm i i don't know i never saw the application but wanted grant funding i believe i've never saw proof of this but my understanding is that grant funding was
02:29:43 understanding is that grant funding was given to um ferry appointment or given to the client which which bryden organized for them for that building and the grant funding was to cover
02:29:54 and the grant funding was to cover an increase in the thickness of the insulation and an upgrade from double glazing to triple glazing
02:30:03 did you when you received this email string from simon lawrence uh look at the paragraph in tom eliot's email to clare williams about the stone
02:30:14 clare williams about the stone insulation coming with a euro classifier rating of a1 and therefore being particularly suited to high-rise refurbishments in accordance with br135 did you note that no does that tell us that you had
02:30:28 no does that tell us that you had on receiving this email no calls to query whether rs 5000 which is a pir product had a euro classifier rating
02:30:40 or or even to ask yourself what rs 5000 euro class rating was no because it wouldn't be me assessing these products can we look at ryd409167
02:30:58 please
02:31:04 this is an email from zach maynard on the same day 18th of june 2014 some to you
02:31:16 are setting out a 26 point set of queries
02:31:21 queries or confirmations a little bit of both i think
02:31:25 think and if you look at item 12 12. you can see
02:31:28 see he says and he's confirming rockwool duo slab information insulation to be used to ensure eco funding secured on the project
02:31:37 project to your recollection was this the first time ryden was suggesting using rockwool as the insulation
02:31:50 i honestly can't remember
02:31:54 i think you you confirmed earlier so i'm so sorry do you want to finish your answer
02:31:58 answer i think quite possibly but but i can't remember all right um you told us earlier that harley had used rock wall at ferry a point and i think also
02:32:05 also the same is true at childcare isn't it i believe so yeah did holly usually use rockwool duo slab information uh insulation
02:32:15 oh crikey um
02:32:19 i would think probably more than perhaps other products but i i wouldn't have been involved in that level of detail so
02:32:27 detail so i i couldn't quote to you exactly what was used and where um obviously i know um the two tower block projects that we mentioned because they've been spoken about
02:32:38 because they've been spoken about recently so i know that but as for other jobs i wouldn't know did you know at this stage that the insulation
02:32:49 insulation to be used uh was srs 5000 or as originally stipulated fr 5000 made by celetex
02:33:00 5000 made by celetex no you didn't so does that tell us that you didn't have any reason to investigate why it was that duo's lab is being proposed in place of celetex
02:33:12 place of celetex right can i ask you to go to har405818 please
02:33:22 this is an email but from you to mike albuston
02:33:28 albuston of the same day and it follows on from simon lawrence's email to you of that day which we've just looked at and he says uh and is also a copy to
02:33:40 and he says uh and is also a copy to mark stapleton and daniel axel jones at harley and you say mike please place a copy on file we are being driven to use rockwell insulation in order for the client to obtain grant funding
02:33:51 obtain grant funding my only concern is that if rock will think it's a done deal they might put a price premium on their product we can sound this one out when the chat from rockwell contacts us before handing over to our construction
02:34:02 before handing over to our construction team
02:34:04 team when you said my only concern is that if rock will think it's a done deal they might put a price premium on their product what did you mean by that comment
02:34:15 comment well if rockwell felt that um they sold the product to the end client they were definitely going to get the order and they may not be um of a mind to be
02:34:26 and they may not be um of a mind to be particularly competitive and the project was already under um pressure
02:34:32 pressure and with budget as we know i see
02:34:38 how would rockwool get to think it was a done deal in your words well i don't know that's that's that's just me guessing that could happen i'm not saying it would happen i'm just
02:34:49 not saying it would happen i'm just saying that you know if because the word if is in there if rock will think i'm not saying they do i'm just guessing
02:34:58 guessing these sort of situations do happen so i'm just just sort of preempting that something could happen like that
02:35:05 like that can you go to ryd409380 please
02:35:14 this is tom elliott's email to simon lawrence of the 20th of june 2014 uh not copy to you hi simon hope you're well sorry for the delay coming back to you i've just tried
02:35:25 delay coming back to you i've just tried to call
02:35:26 to call i have spoken to mark from harley and explained the situation regarding the 25 years guarantee required in order to attract eco funding i've checked with our technical department and we won't be able to incorporate the rayner bond cladding
02:35:38 incorporate the rayner bond cladding with our insulation board and still attract a 25-year guarantee the only option would be utilize a rock panel board in summary the reason for this is that we rock panel can't cannot guarantee the
02:35:49 panel can't cannot guarantee the additional rayner bond components as they are an external company but rock panel are a rockwool group company and therefore we are able stroke willing to take on the risk if we can get rock panel to match the zinc
02:36:00 can get rock panel to match the zinc effect of the proposed panels and come to some sort of commercial agreement on price do you think there would be an interest from yourselves and the client to alter the specification we would obviously keep any price variation to a minimum and the
02:36:11 any price variation to a minimum and the additional eco funding might help to keep the costs in line with the client's budgets
02:36:19 was it you do you think or was it mark stapley to whom mr elliott spoke when he says in the second paragraph there i have spoken to mark probably me to your knowledge was any
02:36:32 probably me to your knowledge was any consideration given to using rock panel in other words a rockwool cladding product in place of the acm
02:36:40 well i don't know don't think so but i don't know why is that do you know i think it was probably too far down the line i mean breeding that and that's a marketing
02:36:52 breeding that and that's a marketing pitch by
02:36:53 pitch by um rockwool to sell um you know the insulation and the panel and i don't blame them for that that's that's a that's a great approach but at the end of the day we've gone so far down the road now if
02:37:05 far down the road now if yeah because i think there was an email for me to write saying you know where do we go with this i seem to recall i mean and if somebody had come back to us and said look there's more time now the client's
02:37:16 there's more time now the client's giving us more time we're happy for you to investigate this now put a price together we would have done that
02:37:23 done that so we had an issue with that did you make any inquiries with rockwell about the cost of using their complete system rock rock wool with rock panel uh no
02:37:34 rock rock wool with rock panel uh no because i think i was waiting for ryden to
02:37:35 to really tell us what to do to your knowledge was mr elliott's proposal given any consideration by either ryden or
02:37:44 or harley um
02:37:47 harley um it would have been for ryden's to have instructed us at this point to tell us what to do and so we wouldn't have done that without writing the same right guys we now want you to investigate this
02:37:59 investigate this we wouldn't have done that without being told to do it
02:38:03 well did you have a discussion with mr lawrence about doing that i can't recall was a cost comparison ever undertaken as between a rock wool and rock panel
02:38:15 as between a rock wool and rock panel system on the one hand and a rainy bond celetex system on the other not to my knowledge why is that well as i said just now that would've
02:38:27 well as i said just now that would've been for ryden's to have told us to do that
02:38:29 that from harley's perspective was it because harley's were keen to stick with rainey bond and therefore didn't want to investigate uh the use of rock panel or indeed said d
02:38:40 d rockwell in place of celetex we really are comfortable with with with i mean rockport was a product had been used before we had no apps to grind as it were with these with these things
02:38:51 these things um but uh it would have been for ryden's at that stage and or the architect or a combination of both
02:38:59 both um because obviously the arctic would have to have been involved in this as with the planners because we've been changing everything and if everybody in that within all the other stakeholders who
02:39:10 other stakeholders who felt it was a good idea and then told us to go forward and start obtaining prices we would have done because it would have been pointless
02:39:18 pointless obtained obtaining prices if all the other stakeholders had not bought into it
02:39:23 it did you ever attempt to analyze whether any cost increase as a result of using the rockwool rock panel system could be offset by eco grant funding
02:39:34 and why is that that wouldn't have been our job we've been down to ryden did you ever seek to have any discussions with ryden uh about undertaking such an exercise
02:39:46 uh about undertaking such an exercise no that's a matter for them would it not also have been a matter for you as the subcontractor given your role in pr and assisting them in choosing right rayno bond acm panel uh panels
02:39:58 right rayno bond acm panel uh panels uh given that role you know we've been happy to have assisted if they did ask they did ask on ferry a point
02:40:07 comparing your proactive approach on the acm
02:40:10 acm with your non-proactive approach on rock panel can you explain why it is that you didn't take the same proactive approach with looking at rock panel
02:40:24 approach with looking at rock panel uh that you'd as you did with the acm well i don't think he wasn't proactive i'd clearly spoken to them it was proactive we don't see any evidence anywhere at least here and
02:40:36 evidence anywhere at least here and indeed anywhere else of you saying to ryden
02:40:39 ryden we should investigate the use of a system incorporating rock wool and rock panel together in an attempt to to obtain eco funding and do a price comparison exercise now we've not seen
02:40:51 comparison exercise now we've not seen that
02:40:52 that and my question really is well why is that well that's a matter for other stakeholders it's not a matter for us there's the client there's the architect there's ryden there's planners if all of those stakeholders
02:41:03 planners if all of those stakeholders wish that situation we would have been delighted to to assist as we did with everything else yes and that's why i say you were not proactive in pushing that exercise were you
02:41:14 you perhaps if we didn't know that's what they wanted if we knew that's what they wanted
02:41:18 wanted we would have them been proactive and just as you had obtained quotes from cep and alcoa
02:41:23 and alcoa it would have been easy for you would it not to have obtained quotes from a supplier and fabricator for the rockwool rock panel combination is that not right i imagine so yeah
02:41:37 and i think you're telling us the reason you didn't is simply that you weren't asked
02:41:41 asked to is that right correct yeah correct if this is obviously um addressed to simon it's it's not addressed to me um so if ryden said to us um
02:41:54 so if ryden said to us um we've now spoken to the client the architects other stakeholders now they wish to pursue this fair enough we would have pursued it and been proactive
02:42:03 proactive but we can't go off on tangents all over the place
02:42:07 the place pursuing things it will we look at ryd40 is 9673 please
02:42:17 we where we see your response
02:42:24 to an email from
02:42:30 simon lawrence
02:42:33 can we please go to page two of that which i think we're on
02:42:38 uh
02:42:47 yes that's what i want page under the this is actually part of a an email from zach maynard and i'm sorry
02:42:58 an email from zach maynard and i'm sorry it's popped up in rather an unattractive form um can we start
02:43:03 start we can scroll up a little bit please to see the beginning of this email
02:43:10 right it's an email from you ah sorry could you go to the next one up next email up and then we'll go down again yes there's an email from you
02:43:21 an email from you on the 24th of june to zach maynard saying zach i'm pleased to advise that the majority of the items below are acceptable notes added in red i would however draw your attention
02:43:32 i would however draw your attention specifically to items 10 and 12. and then if we go into the email itself scrolling down into the email from zac main on to you which is the 26
02:43:43 you which is the 26 item list of queries and confirmations go to item 12 a little bit lower down that page we can see where he had said rockwool duo slab
02:43:54 where he had said rockwool duo slab insulation to be used to ensure eco funding secured on the project this is where you respond and you say we have been contacted by rockwell in this regard
02:44:02 regard they advise that unless they supply the cladding panels rails and insulation as a complete system eco funding would not be available to the client on this project whilst we are happy to use rockwell as an insulation product
02:44:14 an insulation product our bid is based on using rayno bond panels and aluminium rails from a supplier
02:44:18 supplier yet to be confirmed i'm not sure where we go with this yeah by saying our bid was based on reyno bond were you suggesting uh to uh mr maynard
02:44:30 were you suggesting uh to uh mr maynard that the cost would increase if you use rockwool or the rockwool system i i didn't know but but i believe the rock panel system
02:44:41 rock panel system is thick so it would be more money that's absolutely for sure um but as you can see as i explained just now i'm asking ryden's
02:44:52 now i'm asking ryden's where do we go with this so i'm i'm asking them to tell me and if the response had been um yet please
02:44:59 please pursue that then that's what we would have done
02:45:03 yes and and
02:45:06 by saying our bid was based on reyno bond it looks as if uh your your concern was departing from the system using
02:45:17 was departing from the system using raynor bond and using a rock panel system because you couldn't control the costs no because the original bit of course was based what i probably should have
02:45:29 was based what i probably should have said there the original bid was based on zinc
02:45:31 zinc um the value-engineered version was then obviously
02:45:36 obviously uh renault bond so we'd got to that point so to change it again would have been another change which would not have been an issue to us if that was what we were instructed to do
02:45:48 but the cost would definitely have gone up
02:45:51 up and the project was already under pressure from a budget point of view we don't control the budget the kind of said here's another half a million pounds
02:46:00 pounds you're going to do it in rock panel absolutely no issue at all now we've seen earlier evidence where harley had expressed a preference for working with alcoa and getting reyno
02:46:11 for working with alcoa and getting reyno bond
02:46:12 bond from the highly selfish point of view did did that preference contribute to a lack of interest in the rockwool proposal mr harris
02:46:21 i think they're connected right you don't think they're connected you also say here that uh eco funding will not be available to the client
02:46:33 the client um you say unless they supply the cladding panels rails and insulation as a complete system eco funding would not be available to the client on this project is that a a fair summation of what you'd
02:46:44 is that a a fair summation of what you'd been told by tom elliott yes looking back at it it seems that tom elliott had told you uh that in order to attract eco funding
02:46:56 uh that in order to attract eco funding he needed a 25-year guarantee and in fact it was it was the problem with the guarantee that would mean that there'd be difficulty attracting eco funding
02:47:11 i see
02:47:16 now we can't identify any response from ryden whether zach maynard or anybody else in response to what you say at paragraph 12 in red there which is still up on the screen did you
02:47:29 which is still up on the screen did you investigate in the end whether any eco funding would in fact offset costs no that wouldn't have been a matter for us did you ever chase ryden up to give
02:47:40 us did you ever chase ryden up to give you a response in what they wanted no that was between them and the client so you let it lapse but it wasn't for us to do anything with
02:47:51 but it wasn't for us to do anything with i see
02:47:54 mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions yes thank you in the usual way i will need to take the usual check to see whether there's anything i need to ask or whether there are
02:48:03 are others who have questions do you think 10 minutes is long enough i think 10 minutes will probably be long enough well just so you understand what's going on mr harris council has finished the end of his
02:48:14 of his reached the end of his questions but he needs uh time just to check that there's nothing he's ever looked or that anyone else would like him to ask so we're going to have a short break now just for 10 minutes until half past four
02:48:26 minutes until half past four and then at off past four we'll see whether there are a few more questions uh that he'd like to put to you is that all right
02:48:35 all right good thank you and and again as i've told you before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence during the break all right thank you very much i'll fast forward please
03:04:38 well mr harris i'm sorry we kept you waiting i'm afraid there were one or two things that had to be organized before we could
03:04:44 we could resume um but uh mr millet do you have some further questions mr harris i don't have any further questions for you so it remains for me to thank you very
03:04:55 so it remains for me to thank you very much
03:04:55 much for coming remotely to the inquiry to give evidence it's been very helpful and uh i'm very grateful thank you yes well i certainly echo that mr harris it's uh
03:05:05 it's uh very good of you to make yourself available to give evidence to us it's been very helpful to hear what you have to say
03:05:11 to say so thank you very much and uh excuse me excuse me your council now wants to
03:05:19 wants to say something
03:05:30 um no right um well mr harris that is the end of the questioning thank you again for making yourself available we are grateful to you
03:05:42 available we are grateful to you and uh that's the end of it so there's no point telling my telling you you can go home now because you're already there but you can go and have another cup of tea anyway thank you very much indeed
03:05:55 mr milit thank you very much uh that's it for this week it is and we shall resume uh 10 o'clock on monday
03:06:02 on monday with another witness with another harley witness yes mr chairman thank you very much thank you very much 10 o'clock on monday thank you
03:06:48 you