Testimony from Harley Facades project manager Ben Bailey about fire safety weaknesses in the cladding design, cavity barrier installations, and supervision failures.
00:00:00 Would
00:00:17 you ask Mr. Bailey to come back, please? Okay.
00:00:35 Right, Mr. Bailey, you ready to carry on?
00:00:36 on? I am.
00:00:37 I am. Good. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bailey, I just want to revisit one little thing we were talking about before the break. Um, and that's the Chris Mort week link for
00:00:48 and that's the Chris Mort week link for fire. Can I ask you please to be shown Chris Mort's witness statement? That's at SIL50298.
00:01:00 And I'd like you to go please to page seven of that. This is his statement to the inquiry which we've got from him. And at paragraph 31, he says, "I emailed
00:01:12 And at paragraph 31, he says, "I emailed Mr. Bailey, that's that's you, Ben Bailey, on 30th of March 2015 with a sketch proposal and a marked up AA where I had highlighted a weak link, so to speak, in terms of fire. And he attaches
00:01:24 speak, in terms of fire. And he attaches the drawings to the statement. And then he says, I comment as follows. Uh, and then at the next page eight, page eight, he says at C, my email also refers to
00:01:35 he says at C, my email also refers to the marked up AAA where I identified a weak link for fire. By this I was highlighting that there was nothing to stop fire in an internal compartment moving to an external cavity. The window
00:01:46 moving to an external cavity. The window head interface with the structure shows that there is a gap. It needed some form of protection. There should have been a design to protect this. As a supplier of a product, Ciderizer was not obliged to
00:01:57 a product, Ciderizer was not obliged to provide any general advice about fire safety and compliance with the building regulations and associated guidance. However, in this instance, I did highlight the weak link I identified despite it not relating directly to
00:02:09 despite it not relating directly to cavity barriers. It was a clear error, and I felt I should highlight it. In my opinion, Harley and/or building control should have picked it up already. It was their issue to deal with. I would have expected Harley to raise this issue with
00:02:21 expected Harley to raise this issue with the main contractor by way of a request for further information. A design should then have been designed and detailed to put in place and put in place by the main contractor and or Harley. Now, I just want to ask you um about um what he
00:02:34 just want to ask you um about um what he says at the bottom of that paragraph there, because we know what you did and didn't do. Do you expect do you accept that Harley should have raised the issue with the main contractor by way of a request for further information?
00:02:55 I mean, at the time, um,
00:03:02 well,
00:03:05 we weren't, um,
00:03:10 detailing the internal um, finishes. So I think as I said before my recollection of it being a singular
00:03:21 recollection of it being a singular issue to do with externals um I don't think Chris had made it clear that he intended it he meant it to be an internal
00:03:33 it he meant it to be an internal um
00:03:35 um issue.
00:03:37 issue. Um
00:03:38 Um well you're drawing a distinction between internal and external and the weakling for fire is at the interface and he says he would have expected Harley to raise the issue because it had
00:03:50 Harley to raise the issue because it had been pointed out to Harley to you with the main contractor by way of a request for further information. And my question, I'll ask it one more time, is do you accept that Harley should have
00:04:01 do you accept that Harley should have raised the issue with Ryden as the main contractor by way of an RFI, a request for further information
00:04:10 in the way that um Chris explains it here as as an internal issue. If I had read any other way as a it not
00:04:23 I had read any other way as a it not being a singular issue to a to our fire stop then yes we we could have um issued an RFI.
00:04:32 Right. And do you accept that a design should have been designed and detailed and put in place by Ryden or Harley? I feel that um the it's he's talking
00:04:44 I feel that um the it's he's talking about internal finishes. So I feel that's a issue for Ryden andor the architect.
00:04:52 Well, he says andor Harley. Do you don't do you agree or disagree with his view there about what should have in my
00:05:02 in my experience on
00:05:06 on jobs where they have internal external finishes. Um it's the architect who coordinate and the bank contractor who coordinates that interface. Well, on on your experience on jobs, you say, what
00:05:18 your experience on jobs, you say, what experience did you have as of March 2015 of any jobs where there was external internal finishes where the architect would coordinate? My previous job,
00:05:29 My previous job, what Merit House? Correct.
00:05:30 Correct. Was there an issue about that there? Not this specifically, but in terms of just general interfaces with between the external system and the internal finishes.
00:05:40 finishes. Was there a fire related issue about the interfaces between external and internal finishes on that? Not the project. No.
00:05:46 No. Can we then turn to a little bit later in the year um SIL5085
00:05:56 because we pick up again in the June of 2015 more contact between you and side. And here we see an email. Um, if we go to page uh two first of all um to the
00:06:08 to page uh two first of all um to the bottom email, an email from you of the 17th of June to Ricky K at Ciderrise at at 1757 and you say if we can just get down to that
00:06:24 uh uh it straddles the page, but I can I can show you just the top of that page. I'm after some technical advice. We're putting vertical fire brakes up the building where there are party walls. I've marked whether where these are on
00:06:35 I've marked whether where these are on the attached drawing. Will we have to install the verticals anywhere else like on the corners of the building so we don't fall foul of some regulation etc? What do you mean by some regulation etc.
00:06:48 What do you mean by some regulation etc. There Mr. Bailey. Um
00:06:54 I I I expect um I'm probably referring to um ADB, right? Did did you make any attempt
00:07:05 right? Did did you make any attempt yourself to educate yourself as to the appropriate uh location for cavity barriers or were you simply reliant on cider eyes giving you advice on an ad hoc basis? I think
00:07:17 you advice on an ad hoc basis? I think my
00:07:20 knowledge at the time was um
00:07:28 well I think I've been told at that time that it was every you had to be broken up every 20 mters and on corners of um the building. Um I think that's what I've referenced
00:07:39 Um I think that's what I've referenced in this email as well. That's not an answer to my question really. Um let me try it a different way. Given that by the June of 2015 you had had at least two and in fact there are more um but at least two um
00:07:53 are more um but at least two um discussions with side arise about regulatory requirements. Did it not occur to you at that moment to educate yourself about what the cavity barrier requirements were in the regulations? Sit down with them and study them.
00:08:09 I I don't know if I did it at that time. Um, as I I think I said yesterday, um, I had
00:08:16 had read parts of ADP and I did find them confusing
00:08:20 confusing and I think that's why I'm seeking other advice cuz it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
00:08:28 me. Do you know why you were seeking technical advice, as you put it, of this nature after the drawings had been prepared, demonstrating where the cavity barriers ought to have been located?
00:08:42 Um I I don't have a recollection of where the drawings were at that time. Would it not have been a better approach rather than worrying about whether you
00:08:53 rather than worrying about whether you would fall foul of some regulation as you put it? It might have improved fire safety to try to comply with the regulations. That was my intention to comply. Now let's scroll up to page one then
00:09:04 Now let's scroll up to page one then please. Uh on the 22nd of June, we can see that uh uh uh you write to uh um
00:09:15 see that uh uh uh you write to uh um Chris Mort. We can just see that we go up to page one. You write to Chris Mort and Ricky Kay and Barnaby Carrick as well on the
00:09:26 Kay and Barnaby Carrick as well on the 22nd of June and you say, "Chris, to confirm my understanding from our conversation, we need vertical firerekes on the columns." And then you show the grid references as well as the party walls. question mark. Now, this email obviously followed a conversation where
00:09:38 obviously followed a conversation where you discussed the relevant locations for vertical fire brakes. Do you remember what was discussed in that conversation? Um, no.
00:09:46 Um, no. Are you able to explain how come Harley as the specialist's cladding subcontractor and you indeed as the project manager overseeing the installation so lacked any expertise in the placement of cavity barriers that
00:09:58 the placement of cavity barriers that you were forced to seek advice from the manufacturer?
00:10:04 from my part um I'm not in a technical role. I don't think project managers are usually employed in a technical such as that. Um and I think
00:10:16 that. Um and I think from drawings of the um bays I have in my head. um they do show vertical and horizontal cavity powers in them and some of them are not um noted on not on
00:10:27 some of them are not um noted on not on these grids and I think with this um progressive information I'm just double checking that
00:10:39 right I see so you were confirming what you'd understood from the conversation about the position of local of vertical fire brakes
00:10:50 But to answer my question again, you've seen two sets of questions now. Just at this point about vertical fire brakes, are you able to explain how Harley as a specialist subcontractor
00:11:02 specialist subcontractor so lacked expertise in where these cavity barriers should be put that you've had to seek advice from the manufacturer? That was my question. Okay. No. No. Was there anybody else in Harley who could have assisted you with this?
00:11:20 It may have been Dan. Did you ask him? I don't remember. What about Mr. Lamb? I mean, after all, Harley was paying Mr. Lamb for his his specialist design advice. Did you not think of going to Mr. Lamb? I I think
00:11:34 think of going to Mr. Lamb? I I think um the drawings we had of the individual bays where they showed marked up cavity barrier locations said there were there are I think there are notes on some of
00:11:45 are I think there are notes on some of them um noting not on certain columns. So I think um
00:11:51 um if I asked Kevin I'd get the same answer. This I think this is a right. What about studio E? Did you think of going to studio E and asking them this question?
00:12:04 I I don't remember if I um asked them at this point. Um their response to the original query we made was to refer to um others. So
00:12:19 right uh let's move on then to a slightly slightly different topic um or which is um your discussions with Gary Martin. Um
00:12:30 um your discussions with Gary Martin. Um do you remember meeting Gary Martin on site while you were working on the Granville Tower project? He was an employee of Ryden. Yes.
00:12:39 Yes. Do you remember him? Yes,
00:12:41 Yes, you do. Do you remember meeting him on site?
00:12:42 site? Yes.
00:12:44 Yes. Uh now he gave us some evidence to the inquiry and I just want to show you the transcript for day 30 please page 19. Day 30, page 19. And I want to show you
00:12:55 Day 30, page 19. And I want to show you a passage which starts at line three.
00:13:01 And he was asked by Miss Graange at line three, were you aware that cavity barriers had to be provided to close the edges of cavities including around openings? Yes, but if you're talking
00:13:12 openings? Yes, but if you're talking answer yes, but if you're talking about windows specifically, there was a barrier, a foil and tape barrier placed around the whole window opening. And when I thought about it should be a fire barrier or shouldn't be a fire barrier, I checked with the drawings and asked
00:13:24 I checked with the drawings and asked and I can't remember who I asked. And then he says this, but the comment back was that there was vertical and horizontal fire barriers continuing the compartment out through to the exterior
00:13:35 compartment out through to the exterior cladding.
00:13:37 cladding. Question I see. Answer. So, they weren't required around the window. Question: Were you specifically told that they weren't required? Answer: Yes. Around the window. Yeah. You see that at lines
00:13:50 the window. Yeah. You see that at lines 17 to 21?
00:13:52 17 to 21? Yes.
00:13:52 Yes. And then he then he's asked at 22 by Miss Graange, can you recall who might have told you that? Answer, I don't recall, but it prompted me to look at the drawings, and there was nothing on the drawings to suggest they should be.
00:14:03 the drawings to suggest they should be. Do you think it was someone within Ryden that you would have spoken to? I honest answer I honestly can't remember. Is it possible that you spoke to someone outside writing about that question? And he says this, it would have been three people. Probably Taff from Harley's. It
00:14:16 people. Probably Taff from Harley's. It would have been probably Dave Hughes. It could have been Jason North. Or it would have been the Clark of Works. It would have been one of those people. Okay. Thank you. Now, did you ever tell Mr.
00:14:27 Thank you. Now, did you ever tell Mr. Martin that cavity barriers were not required around the windows because there were vertical and horizontal fire barriers continuing the compartment out through to the exterior cladding.
00:14:39 out through to the exterior cladding. I don't remember. You don't remember? But sitting here, you're not able to you're not able to say no categorically. It wasn't you, are you?
00:14:53 As Gary says, they don't appear on the drawings. And I don't remember having that conversation with him. Right. To your knowledge, do you know whether anybody else at Harley had that conversation with him or anyone at
00:15:04 conversation with him or anyone at Osborne Berry? I don't know.
00:15:10 Can I turn to a different topic altogether, which is Harley's supervision of Osborne Berry? Can we start with Ryd 29683, please?
00:15:23 This is an email from Simon Lawrence to Rob Maxwell on the 2nd of February 2015 and you are copied in. Now obviously we know that you took over as project
00:15:34 know that you took over as project manager from Rob Maxwell in February 2015 as you've told us. Um it looks from this is that it was from the very beginning of February. Would that be about right? Which would explain why
00:15:45 about right? Which would explain why you're copied in on this email? Yeah, that fits the the um All right. Okay. Now, let's look at the um uh the email itself. He says, "I've asked Simon
00:15:57 email itself. He says, "I've asked Simon to arrange meetings on site this week with yourselves to go through the program, deliveries, etc. Unfortunately, you seem a hard man to get in contact with. As far uh this means we are getting information from your subcontractors on site. This is not
00:16:09 subcontractors on site. This is not ideal. As far as I'm concerned, we need Harley supervision permanently on site as promised from now on to ensure the program is achieved and that we have clear contactable lines of communication. Also, we have major
00:16:20 communication. Also, we have major concerns about your current labor levels. All mass climbers should be running full till from now on, but they aren't. Please call Simon urgently to remedy the situation before it gets out of hand. Now, we've got no record that
00:16:31 of hand. Now, we've got no record that you responded disagreeing with Simon Lawrence. Do you think you did? that I disagreed with Simon Lawrence. Yes. Did you disagree with him?
00:16:42 Yes. Did you disagree with him? Um,
00:16:44 Um, by which I mean, did you contact him and reply to this email saying you're wrong? I think Rob replied to it. Right. Is it right that Harley didn't have anyone on site permanently at the time?
00:17:00 I think that's my understanding now. Yes.
00:17:03 Yes. Yes. I mean, some questions were asked of Ray Bailey about this and he he explained that there was very little room on the site for permanent site presence of Harley. Is that does that accord with your recollection? Correct.
00:17:14 Correct. Yes. Um after this email, did Harley do anything to implement further site presence or supervision? I think well that's when I became involved and I spending
00:17:25 involved and I spending two or three days or visiting two or three times a week. Right. That's not permanent on-site supervision though. That's two or three times a week. It's not. No. Yeah. Um, if we look at Mr. Maxwell's response, we see that at RYD3029689.
00:17:42 Uh, this is Rob Maxwell's response to the email uh, and copy to you. So, you receive it same day, 2nd of February 15. And he says in the third line, in regards to supervision, Taff is more than capable to manage the current labor
00:17:54 than capable to manage the current labor level. I'm bringing over our project manager, Ben Bailey, on Friday to introduce him to your site team. So, we get the dates about your involvement there. Just in uh relation to um Taff's
00:18:05 there. Just in uh relation to um Taff's capabilities, do you know what investigations Harley had taken to ensure that Taff, that's Mr. Osborne of Osborne Berry, actually had the right number of workmen on site?
00:18:21 Um I think the the answer is I don't know. No, but the right number of men on site is a subjective answer.
00:18:32 subjective answer. Yeah. Um, now in your statement of paragraph 7, and I don't think there's a need to go to it, you say you believe you first attended on site in February or March 2015 and thereafter two or
00:18:44 or March 2015 and thereafter two or three times a week as required. Harley did not have a site office, you say? And when on site, I would use the Ryden main contractor office facilities. I've just read that out to you. Yes.
00:18:55 I've just read that out to you. Yes. rather than taking you to it. Did did that situation persist through the life of the project so far as you were involved in it? Namely that um when on site you had to use the ride and office
00:19:06 site you had to use the ride and office facilities. Um
00:19:09 Um yes. And the extent of the riding office facilities was sit on the end of someone else's desk. I see. So you were hot desking within the Ryden porter cabin.
00:19:22 the Ryden porter cabin. Um they didn't have a porter cabin. had um an area of the um ground floor that turned into a small office. I see. Okay. Uh the impression I'd had was that it was a porter cab. It doesn't matter. Does the um does does that mean
00:19:35 matter. Does the um does does that mean that there was no period during when you were full-time on site, in other words, every day, and you had your own office space? No.
00:19:45 No. Right.
00:19:46 Right. Does that mean that there were some days when um Osborne Berry Tap and Bez were just left to get on with the installation unsupervised by anyone from Harley
00:19:57 Harley um as a um a company? Yes. But there was the expectation of um Mars and Gran Berry that they were supervising their um employees.
00:20:10 their um employees. Yes. That that that that's that's Osborne and Bry supervising their employees. What I'm asking you about is whether there were some days when
00:20:21 whether there were some days when Osborne Bry were left to get on with what their job unsupervised by Harley. Yes.
00:20:27 Yes. Right. Now, can we go to paragraph 32 of your statement, please? Page 10.
00:20:41 Um you uh say there I have been shown a number of photographs which I understand are contained within the first expert report of professor Barbara Lane in particular. I've been shown photographs
00:20:52 particular. I've been shown photographs and then you set out the ones you've been shown and I was very shocked when I saw these photographs through observations on site or when I conducted my checks. I never saw workmanship like this. If I had I would have immediately
00:21:04 this. If I had I would have immediately raised it with Taff and or bears of Osborne Berry to rectify. Now, I'll come back to this paragraph a little bit later on this afternoon, but do you accept that had you or another Harley person had permanent on-site
00:21:15 Harley person had permanent on-site presence supervising the installation of the cladding work done by Osborne Berry, these issues would have come to light and been rectified at the time? Um,
00:21:29 I don't think I particularly agree with that. Um it's a lot of that is to do with access to the elevations and the mask climbers as well.
00:21:40 mask climbers as well. But they would have you would have had the same access to the mask climbers that they would have had. No.
00:21:50 Yes. Um yes. Yes. And if you've been on site all the time, perhaps with your own office, you could have been watching them day by day to make sure that what they were doing was right. would not have resulted in you being shocked by photographs of their
00:22:01 shocked by photographs of their workmanship.
00:22:06 I think that there's an issue or a difference between mask climbers and scaffolding in terms of how often um
00:22:15 um and the extent to which things can be looked at. So whilst working in a mass climber, if they're doing a sequence of work, obviously it's impractical to bring that down to collect someone to go
00:22:27 bring that down to collect someone to go back up again. um regularly. So
00:22:32 So I see is is what you're saying that even if you had been on site seven seven days a week, five days a week with your own office, um you still wouldn't have been able to see everything they did. You'd have to have a supervisor in in
00:22:44 You'd have to have a supervisor in in each individual mask climber all the time. I think I see
00:22:46 I see to achieve what you're suggesting. Very well. Can we then turn to Ryd 3038501?
00:22:56 This is an email from Simon Connor O' Conor to you of the 9th of April 2015. As we can see, copy to Ray Bailey and at Harley and others at Ryden. Complaints.
00:23:07 Harley and others at Ryden. Complaints. It says, "I have concerns over a certain member of your staff on site following a number of complaints. These comprise of knocking on windows asking for tea,
00:23:19 knocking on windows asking for tea, ingest or not, is not acceptable. banging on people's windows to scare animals inside flats. I've witnessed this on one occasion. Feeding the wrong information to residents, saying that it's all been put out in the wrong way
00:23:30 it's all been put out in the wrong way round because of Ryden, and hopefully it won't leak. A complete lack of respect for health and safety, climbing across climbers, dropping material on public footpaths to mention a few. As you are aware, we are tackling a difficult
00:23:41 aware, we are tackling a difficult situation with residents as it is, and these sorts of comments and behaviors only adds fuel to the fire. If I have one more incident on site with this
00:23:52 one more incident on site with this individual, then I will have no option but to remove him from site permanently. What did you do in rel in response to this email, Mr. Bailey? Do you remember?
00:24:06 Um I know I noted the names blacked out. Yeah.
00:24:11 Yeah. So
00:24:13 So Well, don't mention the name. That's that was my question. Um I So what did you do in relation to the email?
00:24:19 email? I think
00:24:21 I think um I remember this and I think I've forwarded it to the person concerned um
00:24:31 maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt at the time but making it clear that it's this um these allegations are unacceptable.
00:24:42 Did the person to whom you forwarded in have any response to them? Did he say they were completely wrong or did he accept that that is what had happened? Um I so I think his response I I don't I don't know if
00:24:55 his response I I don't I don't know if it was an email or not but I think in his opinion this is my memory that some of the things said here were inflated. Um but again we left him in um no doubt as to
00:25:08 again we left him in um no doubt as to right
00:25:09 right it's not detectable. It is not acceptable. Did Simon Okconor's message to you not cause you to question Osborne Berry's competency or their ability to supervise their own
00:25:22 ability to supervise their own operators?
00:25:26 Um, if it's if the person I'm thinking this email refers about is correct, then I think they're well known to the company and um I don't
00:25:40 well known to the company and um I don't think it
00:25:43 think it gave me any doubt. No. Did you wonder why it was uh that Osborne Berry had such a person working on a site such as this? Why do
00:25:55 working on a site such as this? Why do they allow that to happen?
00:26:09 Um
00:26:13 I I don't know. Were you not concerned?
00:26:19 Um,
00:26:25 it's it's not um ideal to
00:26:30 ideal to I don't receive, you know, message such as this. Um, you know, Simon's trying to manage the situation, I think, is his job on one of
00:26:41 situation, I think, is his job on one of his jobs on site. Um, I think
00:26:46 I think the fact that this person I don't think was removed from site afterwards, um, I think meant that the message got through loud and clear to them. Right. The transcript got you down as
00:26:59 Right. The transcript got you down as saying this person I don't think was removed from site afterwards. Is that right? Or were they removed from site? I don't think they were. Don't think they were. But if it's the person I'm thinking of,
00:27:11 person I'm thinking of, right, did it not concern you that notwithstanding what on the face of it are quite serious and unpleasant actions by an operator
00:27:22 and unpleasant actions by an operator involved in the installation, that person was still working on site after this?
00:27:29 this? Well, they they got they got a warning. This didn't Well, it's quite serious, isn't it? It's not just banging on people's windows, etc. And it's also a complete lack of
00:27:40 etc. And it's also a complete lack of respect for health and safety and dropping material on public footpaths. I mean, these are dangerous activities. Did it not concern you that you had a subcontractor responsible for installation who within their midst had
00:27:52 installation who within their midst had an operator who was conducting themselves in this fashion?
00:28:04 I think we asked them about this. Um we had discussed it and as I said I think their opinion was some of some of these claims were um inflated. I don't
00:28:17 claims were um inflated. I don't remember exact conversations on it other than the sort of gist I've given you. And I think any concerns I did have were um
00:28:26 um um subdued after this.
00:28:32 Uh let's move on to Ryd 30's 40227 please. This is an email from Simon O' Conor
00:28:42 to you and to others including Simon Lawrence attaching minutes from a meeting that took place on the 28th of April. Do you see that? Yes.
00:28:51 Yes. And if we look at the minutes themselves, those are at Har50414 please.
00:29:02 Uh, and you can see the date of the meeting and you can see who was present. It includes you. You see that? Yes.
00:29:08 Yes. And at item 202, just near the bottom of the page, it says, "Mask climbers are still not being operated correctly. Climber drive unit being wedged up to operate. Harley's advised that this is not acceptable. And
00:29:20 advised that this is not acceptable. And if found doing this again, a red card will be issued." Now, Osborne Berry were operating the mask climbers, weren't they?
00:29:26 they? Yes. Did this make you question their abilities to do their job properly?
00:29:36 Sorry, I was reading the um the page um which updated your question. I'm so sorry, I may have gone too fast. Um let's look at it's 202 under health and safety.
00:29:47 and safety. Mast climbers. Do you see that? Yeah.
00:29:49 Yeah. M climbers are still not being operated correctly. Climber drive unit being wedged up to operate. Harley's advised that this is not acceptable and if found doing this again, a red card will be issued. Now, the red card would be
00:30:01 issued. Now, the red card would be issued to to Osborne Bry. Yes.
00:30:03 Yes. Yes. And did this event that's recorded here, the end of April 2015, not make you question their abilities to do their job properly?
00:30:13 Um, no.
00:30:16 no. Why is that? So, what they're referring to there is um
00:30:24 there's a there's a lever um on the mask on a drive control that you have to hold up by hand to um move the unit up and down and they take 10 15 minutes to to
00:30:37 down and they take 10 15 minutes to to move up and down the building. And I'm not saying that who Simon I think is right that it's not acceptable to do that. Um but it's
00:30:48 acceptable to do that. Um but it's hard to police um again you stop them doing it every time you see them doing it. But well did you do anything as a result of
00:30:59 well did you do anything as a result of this?
00:31:00 this? Well there is every time you make it clear to them not to do it right. Did you go to uh Osborne Berry and say, "Do not wedge the climate drive
00:31:13 and say, "Do not wedge the climate drive unit upwards, please. If you do that again, you'll get a red card, whatever that means." Uh,
00:31:18 Uh, did you do that? I believe so. Yes. What does red card mean? Uh, red card is removal from sight, I believe.
00:31:24 believe. Right. And who was it at Osborne Berry who was responsible for this uh conduct? I don't know. Well, you must know. I mean, you you went to them and told them not to do it again. Who was it? Oh, no. I would have told um Tav bears
00:31:38 Oh, no. I would have told um Tav bears right as a as a general um um as a general point. Um but the these kind of issues are also covered in the when you induct someone to use these mask climbers. It's covered in that as
00:31:50 mask climbers. It's covered in that as well.
00:31:51 well. Right. And while we're on this document and and I'm sorry to go back to the topic of of fire brakes again, but while we've got the document here, I can ask you about it. Can you look at item 603,
00:32:03 you about it. Can you look at item 603, please? That's on page three. Um, you can see there that under 603, this is under the heading design changes information and drawings K at the top of
00:32:17 information and drawings K at the top of the page 602. You can see that there's BB to provide elevation drawing showing progress on a weekly basis to do DO. See that?
00:32:28 weekly basis to do DO. See that? Yes.
00:32:28 Yes. And then it that's the background. And then design changes 603 BB to issue elevations showing positions of fire break on all elevations to do
00:32:39 break on all elevations to do and do is is Daniel Osgood, isn't it? I believe so. And BB is you. Yes. Yes.
00:32:46 Yes. Did you ever do that? In other words, issue a set of elevations showing the position of fire brakes. Um
00:32:55 I don't remember but I should say that our drawings which show the bays of windows formed together to provide
00:33:06 windows formed together to provide produce an elevation. I don't know if that
00:33:09 that specific elevation was made up. I may have marked it in pen on a A3 drawing. I don't remember. Well, the minute says that it was BB to issue elevations. My
00:33:21 that it was BB to issue elevations. My question is, whoever had originated those drawings, did you issue them? I don't remember. Don't remember. Right. Let's go to item 901 then. A little bit lower down the
00:33:32 901 then. A little bit lower down the page under the heading review of progress to date. 901 says windows and fire brakes being fitted to the north, east, and west elevations. So does that tell us that cavity
00:33:43 So does that tell us that cavity barriers were being fitted to the building at these elevations at that time?
00:33:49 time? Yes.
00:33:51 Yes. Can you explain why cavity barriers were being fitted before Harley that's you BB had issued elevation drawings indicating where the firereak should be that is
00:34:04 where the firereak should be that is cavity barriers should be. Yes they were shown on our our bay drawings.
00:34:11 drawings. I'm not sure I understand. Um it it it says that BB to issue elevations showing positions of fire brakes and it goes on to say windows and fire brakes being fitted.
00:34:23 fitted. It it looks like that's happening be before the elevation elevation drawings were being issued by you. Can you explain why cavity barriers, if that's what fire brakes refer to, were being fitted before
00:34:37 refer to, were being fitted before Harley, that's you, had sent elevation drawings indicating where to install them.
00:34:41 them. So the the positions of where to install them were indicated on the um drawings that we had showing the bays of windows. So what was the purpose then of you issuing elevations showing position of
00:34:53 issuing elevations showing position of fire brakes on all elevations to Daniel Osgood? I think my instinct for that is it makes it easier for Daniel to visualize where they go.
00:35:06 for Daniel to visualize where they go. So these are these pre-existing drawings that Daniel Osgood didn't have but wanted you to give him. I I think it might might be for clarity for his clarity. Did he explain why he wanted them?
00:35:19 Did he explain why he wanted them? As I say, I I think it would be for his clarity. I I don't know.
00:35:26 This this um meeting was in April 2015. Yes.
00:35:31 Yes. End of April 2015. I believe our the positions for the gravity powers were indicated on our not elevation drawings, they're bay drawings of the wind around the windows.
00:35:42 of the wind around the windows. Yes. And that's why I'm asking you what was the what was the reason why you agreed as we as we can see from 603 to issue elevations showing positions of fire brakes. I think it's for clarity for Daniel.
00:35:55 But but he could have got that clarity either from studio E or from someone else in Ryden, couldn't he? Rather than coming to you. Um I don't I don't remember a existing elevation drawing that shows positions
00:36:07 elevation drawing that shows positions on it.
00:36:10 Now can we go to Osborne Berry's inquiry position statement? That's OSB 684.
00:36:19 I'd like to go to page two, please. OSB6084
00:36:25 and we can look at paragraph 8 in this document sub at sub paragraph Roman nine.
00:36:32 nine. Uh and
00:36:34 Uh and what's happening here is that Osborne Berry in this position statement and I should just be clear with you. It's not a witness statement. This is a a formal submission or position to the inquiry
00:36:45 submission or position to the inquiry that Osborne Bry have done some time ago. And what they are listing here is what they did. And at nine you can see they say uh that vertical and horizontal
00:36:56 they say uh that vertical and horizontal fire brakes were installed as per elevation drawing. Now if Osborne Berry in this document when using the word fire brakes meant cavity barriers and that's a question
00:37:08 cavity barriers and that's a question we'll have to ask them. But if they mean that, would you accept that Osborne Berry did install the cavity barriers as per elevation drawing?
00:37:23 I I I don't remember a Harley elevation drawing. So, um, whilst I'd agree with you that they installed them to a Harley drawing,
00:37:36 installed them to a Harley drawing, again, we we didn't have a Harley elevation drawing. Oh, I think possibly what they're referring to there is the bay drawings that show the individual window types with the cladding and cavity bars around them. What
00:37:48 cavity bars around them. What instructions did you give do you remember to Osborne Berry in relation to the installation of cavity barriers and the other components of the raincreen system?
00:37:58 system? Um
00:38:01 Um I think the methodology was covered in the um method statements. Right. So, method statements. Let me just see if I can get a picture of what you gave them before they started their job. Did what did you what did you give
00:38:12 job. Did what did you what did you give them
00:38:14 them in terms of documents so that they would know exactly what to do? Um, method statement, risk assessment.
00:38:25 Yes. Anything else? Um, sets of drawings. Right. Which sets of drawings did you give them, do you think? Um,
00:38:35 Um, it would have been the the full set that was available to me at the time. Do you know which that was? Um, I think or what the rather what the date of the
00:38:46 or what the rather what the date of the drawings was? Oh, no.
00:38:47 Oh, no. Right. Did you provide Osborne Berry with any copies of Ciderized product literature? For example, its guides um ciderize RH and RV cavity barriers
00:38:59 um ciderize RH and RV cavity barriers for use in external envelope or fabric of building. Um I I don't remember. Right.
00:39:11 Right. What about it's cavity barriers for raincreen cladding guides? Again, I don't remember. Is there any reason why he wouldn't have done that? I given what they were fitting with ciderized cavity barriers. Can you think
00:39:23 ciderized cavity barriers. Can you think of any reason why he wouldn't have given them those documents? No.
00:39:31 Let's now look at Mr. Osbborne's witness statement. This is OSB uh 687, please. And I'd like to turn to page seven, and we can look together at um his answer to
00:39:45 we can look together at um his answer to question 11 on that page. which I'm afraid it's unparagraphed but we have got the questions and the question he's asked at paragraph 11 is what training did Osborne Berry give to those installing the facade and windows in
00:39:57 installing the facade and windows in particular with regard to fitting cavity barriers and his answer is on-site training was provided to those who were employed to assist Osborne Berry in the installation process Osborne Berry had
00:40:08 installation process Osborne Berry had no involvement in relation to the fitting of cavity barriers do you agree with that no you surprised to read it there. Yes.
00:40:17 Yes. Did you supervise the on-site training that was provided to those who are employed to assist Osborne Berry in the installation process? Um,
00:40:29 I I don't think so. Do you know what the on-site training that Mr. Osborne's referring to there referred uh included or comprised? Um,
00:40:42 Um, I'd be
00:40:45 I'd be um
00:40:47 um I would I'd imagine it was um Taff and Bears training their own guys. Did you see that happen? Um
00:40:56 Um possibly on a passing basis, right? Not fully witnessed. Right. You didn't take any steps to discuss with Taff or Bears what it was they were doing to train their operatives to do the installation tasks.
00:41:09 operatives to do the installation tasks. My recollection is that they were well or they had told me that they were um doing so.
00:41:20 Was it not part of your role to make sure that Osborne Berry were were prop were making sure that their operators were carrying out um their installation tasks properly as Harley's sub
00:41:32 tasks properly as Harley's sub subcontractor
00:41:36 um
00:41:45 to the to the best of my recollection um I believe that they for um training their installers. Um
00:42:01 yeah. Uh yes, that to the best of your recollection, you believe they were, but did you take any steps yourself to find out exactly what they were doing by way of training as opposed simply to
00:42:13 of training as opposed simply to operating on the assumption that they were training them? Um
00:42:25 I I I don't recall um what I did further to that. I mean is the truth that that you Osborne Barry were contracted in to do the installation and they were left just to get on with it
00:42:38 just to get on with it without any supervision from you as the on-site project manager about the qualifications of those that they
00:42:48 they employed to carry out the job. I think I think there was an element of of um supervision over them. Um again I was um doing my snag checks
00:43:01 again I was um doing my snag checks after their um fitting of stuff and um you know so the element of supervision was was simply snag checks or was there something else you were doing
00:43:12 something else you were doing um well this the general stuff I um I can't remember if I covered that earlier on but it's the um monitoring of where we are in the in the program with their
00:43:23 we are in the in the program with their works their labor levels Um as I said every time I went to site I would have a discussion with them about their works supervision of their own employees. Um
00:43:36 did you ever give anybody from Osborne Berry any instructions relating to compartmentation?
00:43:48 Um I think
00:43:52 I think I don't recall specific conversations about comp com compartmentation.
00:43:59 All right. Yeah.
00:44:00 Yeah. Um but I think they were aware of the of that concept or requirement. Is that an assumption that you're making
00:44:11 Is that an assumption that you're making or did you actually do you actually know from discussions with them in the past that they they knew at least about what it meant and involved? Um I I think that's um
00:44:27 I think it's more than an assumption. I think it's it's a expectation that they know. Um well an expectation is an assumption unless you've actually done some homework to find out precisely what they
00:44:39 homework to find out precisely what they do know. Did you do any homework to find out precisely what the extent of their expertise was in the maintaining of compartmentmentation on high-rise residential buildings such as Grrenfell Tower?
00:44:49 Tower? I think the reading of the of the drawings and the positioning of them is made clear to them that they are on party walls for departmentalization purposes. Um
00:45:01 purposes. Um and I'm
00:45:03 and I'm Yeah.
00:45:05 Yeah. Did you ever give them any instructions about materials or fire safety
00:45:13 specific? Yes. Let me be more specific. Did you give any instructions or guidance to Har to um Osborne Berry about the materials to be used in the uh in the cladding
00:45:26 to be used in the uh in the cladding system
00:45:28 system or or fire safety in general? in relation to the building as opposed to site safety. Um
00:45:37 Um other than the character pairs being an important part of that I don't recall um
00:45:48 I don't recall um any specific conversations about um topics to that. Had you had any training that would allow you to inspect
00:45:59 training that would allow you to inspect Osborne Berry's installation to make sure that
00:46:04 sure that uh the installation complied with the manufacturer's advice, directions, or guidance? No.
00:46:15 Had Ryden ever asked you any questions to find out whether you were competent to supervise Osborne Berry's installation?
00:46:25 Um, I don't think so. Had Ryden ever asked you whether you were sufficiently up to speed with the building regulations and approved document B to be able to supervise the
00:46:37 document B to be able to supervise the installation on site? No.
00:46:43 Are you able to tell us how you could supervise or how you were in a position to supervise the work of your subcontractors if you didn't know whether or not what they put on the building was compliant with the building
00:46:54 building was compliant with the building regulations?
00:46:58 Um, I think
00:47:04 early on we had a a a bay or bays of the building that were due to be completed and they were um
00:47:15 due to be completed and they were um checked off as um being at the standard. So I think that's what everyone was sort of replicating around the building. That's our yard stick.
00:47:34 Do you you uh recall giving instructions about the cutting of insulation and the need
00:47:47 the cutting of insulation and the need to cover joints, for example, in adhesive foil tape?
00:47:54 I think that forms part of a method statement. Yes. Uh well, let's be a little bit more specific. If you can go to paragraph 26 of your statement. It's a page eight.
00:48:17 Sorry. Can I just go back to an answer before last you gave on on the transcript? I just noticed it. Um, you you say in response to my supervision question, you said we had early on we
00:48:28 question, you said we had early on we had a bail or bays of the building that were deemed to be completed and they were checked off as being the standard. Who checked off the bay or bays of the
00:48:39 Who checked off the bay or bays of the building as standard? Um I believe that would have been um a group of um people from Ryden, myself,
00:48:51 group of um people from Ryden, myself, Mark or sorry Taff or Bezos
00:48:57 possibly others. Right. Do you know when that check or checks were made?
00:49:11 I'm unsure of an exact time, but it would have been at a point in time where all the
00:49:16 all the All right, let's look at paragraph 26 of your statement. You say there Osborne Berry fixed the ins insulation to all outward facing walls of the building using insulation fixing anchors designed for this purpose. I believe that these
00:49:28 for this purpose. I believe that these were cut to size in places and to the best of my recollection, joints and fixing locations were covered in adhesive foil tape. So, is it fair to say that part of the insulation method was to cover joints
00:49:40 insulation method was to cover joints with foil tape? I believe so. Yeah. Do you know who carried out the cutting?
00:49:48 The cutting of the insulation? Um that would have been um Osborne Berry.
00:49:53 Berry. Osborne Berry. On whose instructions were the were the um Berry working when doing that cutting?
00:50:03 um where it's a necessity to make it fit the building. So on an on on site as and when basis
00:50:15 So on an on on site as and when basis I think all the insulation had to be cut to fit.
00:50:17 to fit. Right.
00:50:19 Right. How did you ensure that that the cutting they did didn't leave any gaps within the cladding system.
00:50:31 When you say gaps
00:50:35 gaps um
00:50:37 um well um
00:50:39 well um gaps I mean holes spaces let me ask the question again did you take any steps to ensure that the cutting to size on site to fit
00:50:51 to fit didn't leave any gaps within the cladding system holes spaces for air to move through it's it's an expectation that that it's cut
00:51:03 cut square or to um suit the building.
00:51:09 Yes, it's an expectation. Does that mean that you expected it to be cut um square or to suit the building but didn't actually take any steps yourself to ensure that it had been
00:51:22 well from what I saw it it was right. Were there any records kept of the way in which the insulation had been cut in each location where it was cut to fit?
00:51:32 fit? Uh, not detailed records. No, any records at all. Um,
00:51:38 Um, there were handover sheets created, but that was later on in the job. Right. Um, did you consider why it was that joints might need to be taped? Um, my understanding from my previous
00:51:52 Um, my understanding from my previous job was that's more to do with cold bridging. Um and it's a thermal performance
00:52:03 right. Uh now you um have said in paragraph 26 of your statement as we can see um that joints
00:52:16 statement as we can see um that joints had to be covered in adhesive foil tape. Can I then show you paragraph 32 of your statement uh on page 10 that's two pages on
00:52:25 on you say in paragraph 32
00:52:29 uh halfway down I was not aware of a requirement to cover the edges of the insulation boards with foil tape nor that the horizontal cavity barriers should be installed with the green printed side up as stated in Dr. Lane's
00:52:41 printed side up as stated in Dr. Lane's report just focusing on the foil tape for the moment. Um given that you knew that um joints had to be covered in adhesive
00:52:52 joints had to be covered in adhesive foil tape, didn't you did you consider that if foil tape was required at the joints, it might also be required where the insulation had been cut? I did not.
00:53:03 I did not. Why is that? As I said before, I thought the taping of joints was more of a thermal performance. um issue rather than um
00:53:15 performance. um issue rather than um anything else.
00:53:23 So So it didn't cross your mind that foil needed to be put on the edges as well as the joints? No, I I um I don't think I'd ever heard that before.
00:53:39 What was the purpose of taping the joints?
00:53:46 My understanding was that it's a for a thermal
00:53:50 thermal performance point of view. Right.
00:54:02 I'm going to turn to a different topic now which is the installation of the windows. Can you please go to C 407020?
00:54:17 Now, this is an email from you to um Steve Roberts at C dated the 25th of March, 2015. And you say, "Hi, Steve. We're running
00:54:28 And you say, "Hi, Steve. We're running short on type 10B windows at Grenfell. Can you run off a few of these? Can you run a few of these off for the next delivery, please? Is there a factory schedule you're working to that I could look over? We are having to install the
00:54:41 look over? We are having to install the frames in an odd way, so it may be worth tweaking certain parts of the schedule." What was odd about the way you were having to install the frames?
00:54:53 So, my recollection of this in the way that they're odd and it's to do with the scheduling um is that
00:55:06 I don't think all areas of the um building were accessible at that time. um
00:55:19 in terms of usually how you'd install a whole batch of frames would be in a very sort of methodical um way. So I see across the building and up at the same time and I think what we're doing
00:55:31 time and I think what we're doing I don't remember the exact reasons but we haven't putting them in in right so just to be clear your reference to odd meant in an odd order sorry I can make that clear in an odd order. I follow rather than in an odd
00:55:42 order. I follow rather than in an odd way as a matter of design and installation. Yes, in an odd order. I follow. Now, um if we can go to paragraph 13 of your statement on page four,
00:55:56 you say there um four lines down. I remember that I made
00:56:06 uh uh I'm sorry, not four lines down at the beginning actually is what I want to show you. In terms of the work done by the installers, I remember that I made ad hoc informal checks to the window shelf angles and whether ceiling details
00:56:18 shelf angles and whether ceiling details before the frames were fitted as a large part of this work had taken place before I had full involvement in the project. I remember that before panels were installed, I went up the mask climber and conducted a visual check of the
00:56:29 and conducted a visual check of the windows, the insulation, the cavity barriers, and the cladding rails in most areas over each level of the existing flats in the building levels 1 to 20 in the original floor numbering convention. He say, I recall doing this on the
00:56:41 He say, I recall doing this on the north, east, and west elevations, not the south, over the main entrance before building control inspection visits at the request of Ryden to check the work was ready to be inspected. There was not
00:56:52 was ready to be inspected. There was not a checklist or specification to inspect the areas against at this time, but I would generally check the following and then you'd give a list.
00:57:03 First of all, who was undertaking inspections of the work carried out by Osborne Berry before your involvement in the project from early February 2015?
00:57:14 Um, if anyone that would have been Rob Maxwell,
00:57:18 Maxwell, right?
00:57:20 right? How frequently did you go up the mask climber to perform these ad hoc inspections?
00:57:29 That's um it's difficult to answer it. Um
00:57:38 you know some weeks it could have been every day other weeks it could have been less frequent. I it's a difficult question to answer that. I can't. But it' be fair to say that to prevent delays to the program, access to the
00:57:49 delays to the program, access to the mask climbers was relatively infrequent and mainly to inspect completed areas.
00:58:02 I mean, there would be times throughout the day where they weren't being used anyway, such as at lunchtimes. So um you know it wouldn't be a long period of time you could use them but um
00:58:14 how comprehensive was this ad hoc uh informal inspection uh regime that you described? It was mostly um visual
00:58:27 It was mostly um visual visual.
00:58:30 visual. Was there an equivalent of the handover sheet for this inspection to the one that you sent to Ryden that you referred to before for the inspections carried out after the cladding panels were installed? Um,
00:58:45 not no. Did you use any other tracking system or checklist system for these ad hoc inspections? I think
00:58:55 with with the notes I kept, I think anything I found that needed any attention afterwards um would have been noted down. Um I believe these these
00:59:07 noted down. Um I believe these these were probably referenced at the hand when we when we created the handover sheets.
00:59:11 sheets. Well, how are you able to ensure that you'd inspected all the elements without uh a tracking system or checklist system?
00:59:19 system? Um by virtue of how
00:59:23 the mask climbers um are set out and run. So it' be a quick note of where you'd been. So the buildings ended with sort of a grid system. So you have two mask clims on each elevation and um so
00:59:35 mask clims on each elevation and um so you've got position one, position two, and then levels and then a bay um which we labeled alphabetically. So it would you can make a note of where you've got
00:59:46 you can make a note of where you've got up to.
00:59:47 up to. Where did you make a note? um in my in my um notebook. Right. So you used your notebook as the sole method. Is this right for for my reference? Yes.
00:59:59 for my reference? Yes. Right.
01:00:02 Is it fair to say that these ad hoc informal checks that you detail here were not part of any formal snagging inspection?
01:00:14 I I think the check I did um before building control visit was a was a snag. Right.
01:00:22 Right. And that was undertaken prior to the installation of the cladding panels. Was it
01:00:26 it correct?
01:00:26 correct? Yes. And so you'd be able to see the installation of the cavity barriers and the insulation and the windows. Yes. Yes.
01:00:35 Yes. And did you undertake that visual check over every level on at least the three sides of the building that you've referred to? the um north, east, and the west.
01:00:44 west. Um yeah, my recollection is um yeah, levels 1 to 20 um on each elevation. Yes.
01:00:50 Yes. Right. What about the south? When when was that done? Um I I don't recall. Was it ever done? The south um by you did you ever inspect even ad hoc
01:01:01 by you did you ever inspect even ad hoc the south elevation?
01:01:08 I don't recall. Um I can't find any. Um, so there's there weren't any handover sheets for that area, but it's a blur. It's a blur.
01:01:19 It's a blur. They all the base look the same. Right. I mean, you've made it very clear in this statement that you recall doing ad hoc informal checks on a list of things here on the north, east, and west
01:01:31 things here on the north, east, and west elevations, but not the south. Does that tell us that you yourself at least never made any even ad hoc informal inspections on the south elevation?
01:01:44 I don't recall the south. Why was it emitted? I don't recall. Did anybody else other than you to your knowledge conduct even an ad hoc informal inspection of these elements on
01:01:56 informal inspection of these elements on the south elevation? Um
01:02:01 Um certainly um Osman Berry I think members of Ryden would have done so as well.
01:02:10 Well, Osborne Berry are the installers. They're not going to be checking their own work, are they? We could be checking the work of their employees. Right. Okay. I'm talking about Harley,
01:02:22 Right. Okay. I'm talking about Harley, though. Did Did Harley ever, to your knowledge, carry out any even ad hoc informal inspections to the South Elevation?
01:02:44 As I said, it it's possible, but I I I don't remember the handover sheets give me a good memory or reference point back in time
01:02:57 memory or reference point back in time to what I did, where I've been, but they don't exist for the South. So, I can't certainly say I did or did not. Well, if who else would have been within
01:03:08 Well, if who else would have been within Harley to conduct inspections of the south elevation if not you um
01:03:21 I don't know if anyone else would have done.
01:03:22 done. No.
01:03:24 No. So if you didn't do it, then can we assume that nobody in Harley ever conducted even any ad hoc informal inspection of the south elevation?
01:03:39 Uh yes. Did anybody such as Ryden or the Clark of Works ever ask you whether you had done an inspection of the South Elevation? And if you hadn't, why you
01:03:52 Elevation? And if you hadn't, why you hadn't?
01:03:54 hadn't? Um
01:04:01 I I I don't remember. I um
01:04:07 um yeah, as I said, I don't have a definite memory of doing so. When you undertook your inspections of the northeast, and west elevations,
01:04:18 did you take the drawings with you?
01:04:25 Um,
01:04:30 I had an iPad with the drawings on. I see. Did you check whether the insulation, the windows, and the cavity barriers that you could see on those inspections had been installed in
01:04:42 inspections had been installed in accordance with the architect's intent?
01:04:47 Um,
01:04:51 I think my reference when we were checking these areas goes back to um the earlier bays that we'd
01:05:04 um the earlier bays that we'd um seen or agreed on. So, um I think at the time checking back to the um I was more checking back to how
01:05:15 I was more checking back to how everything else was. It all been repeated.
01:05:25 Did you compare the installation you were inspecting with what was shown on the drawings you had on your iPad?
01:05:34 Well, not everybody. No. Um, it becomes learned after a while, I think.
01:05:41 think. Right.
01:05:43 Right. During the informal inspections that you described, did you notice any poor workmanship?
01:05:50 Um,
01:05:57 nothing specific. Um, my memory is that at the end of before the panels went on, anything that was picked up was dealt with. Um,
01:06:09 with. Um, you referred to to handover sheets. Did Ryden ever ask you for the handover sheets in relation to the south elevation? Um, I don't think so.
01:06:21 Let's just go back to the statement, your statement we looked at before, paragraph 32, please, page 10, where you refer to being shown the photographs in Dr. Lane's first report and saying you
01:06:34 Dr. Lane's first report and saying you were very shocked when you saw these photographs, but we put it up on the screen. I'm not going to read it again to you.
01:06:42 to you. What was it about the workmanship that shocked you that you can see from those photographs? So, my recollection of um those photos is where the mask climber tie insulation
01:06:54 is where the mask climber tie insulation is being um filled in or sorry, the area around where the mask climber ties appear to have been the way they've been filled in.
01:07:11 Anything else? Um
01:07:19 I don't have a as sitting here I don't have a recollection of all those numbers represent but right c can can can you explain how it comes about that
01:07:30 explain how it comes about that notwithstanding your ad hoc informal inspections that you've described there nonetheless existed elements of the workmanship that when revealed by photographs after the fire shocked you.
01:07:41 photographs after the fire shocked you. Can you explain that? I so I think in reference to the where I think the mask climber's eyes were um when a mask climber is struck
01:07:52 when a mask climber is struck that element of the machine is unsupported and I think it's very much accepted practice with mask climbers is that um you spend as little time as well sorry not as time as possible as few
01:08:05 sorry not as time as possible as few repeat visits as possible because they're unsupported. It's um a
01:08:13 um not a dangerous situation. It's a situation I spent too much time in. So, we're not going back up to check where a tie's been removed and the material replaced at that end of the job where,
01:08:25 replaced at that end of the job where, you know, it's an expectation that the guys doing it are going to do it properly.
01:08:29 properly. So, are you saying that the parts or those photographs of the workmanship that shocked you were those that you did not inspect? I couldn't have done. You couldn't have done.
01:08:45 Now, Ciderize published two pieces of project literature. Ciderize RH and RV cavity barriers for use in external envelope or fabric of building and also cavity barriers for
01:08:56 building and also cavity barriers for raincreen cladding. Um, did you refer yourself to the installation instructions contained in them during your inspections?
01:09:07 them during your inspections? Um,
01:09:12 um, possibly. I can't I can't picture the document in my head right now. Right. Did you consult the project literature at any time during your involvement on the Grenell Tower project?
01:09:21 project? Um, probably. Right. Well, let's look at the first of those. SIL50230, please.
01:09:30 Page two. I look at page one to be fair to you, which is the introductory page. Solderize RH and RV cavity barriers for use in the external envelope or fabric
01:09:41 use in the external envelope or fabric of buildings. Just looking at the first page, is this familiar to you? It triggers a recollection. So, you looked at this at the time, did you? Um, it triggers recollection now. Yes. That you looked at it at the time. Yes.
01:09:53 That you looked at it at the time. Yes. Um, as as I I've said before, um, it's hard to remember what I've seen before and since. Right. So, you can't you you recognize the document, but you don't know whether
01:10:04 the document, but you don't know whether you looked at it at the time or not? Yeah, it's possible I have done. Yes. I don't I want to use it as a trigger for a contemporaneous recollection. Looking at it now, do you remember whether you looked at it during your
01:10:15 whether you looked at it during your involvement on the project?
01:10:24 It's likely. Okay.
01:10:28 Okay. Can we then look at page two, please? Where we can see cider eyes RH open state horizontal cavities. You see that? Yes.
01:10:39 Yes. And you've got some photographs there. Uh and
01:10:43 Uh and on the right hand side and at the bottom of the page it says for product identification purposes the top edges of the film used on the RH25 and RH50
01:10:54 the film used on the RH25 and RH50 systems are colorcoded green and red respectively. Did you read that at the time do you think?
01:10:59 think? Um I wasn't aware of that. No. Right. Is there any reason why if you did read this document at the time you wouldn't have read that? Um, I don't I don't think so.
01:11:13 Um, I don't I don't think so. Right. If if you had read it, that would have enabled you to identify that the cavity barriers should have been installed green side up. Yes. Um,
01:11:26 Um, as to what it says here, yes, but I I disagree that there's a there's a top and bottom to these cavity barriers.
01:11:41 Is it fair to say that if you'd done a proper inspection, you you would have picked up the fact that in in some cases the the uh RH
01:11:52 RH horizontal cavity barriers had been installed the wrong way up.
01:12:00 The green stripe on top was not something I was aware of at the time. Um, as I understand it on this particular product, the intermission strip on the front is a is
01:12:11 intermission strip on the front is a is a full depth intermittent strip. So in as such, there is no correct there is no top and bottom. The there's other products from side I've seen which have a um thinner intermission strip for
01:12:25 a um thinner intermission strip for costsaving purposes. Um and that is located near a a face of the board and I think that is the reference there of where the top
01:12:36 is the reference there of where the top is and where the bottom is. Right.
01:12:37 Right. Because the interesting strip will be lower down. Yes. Can I then turn to a different topic
01:12:43 topic uh which is Whan's house. Mr. Chairman, I think I can do this reasonably quickly and then we can take an afternoon the afternoon. Very well. Thank you. If that's if that's all right. Um, can I
01:12:55 If that's if that's all right. Um, can I ask you first then to turn to SIL uh 50 321 please?
01:13:06 Now this is an I I should tell you the context of this. It relates to a refurbishment that Harley were undertaking in December 2014 at Whan's house. I don't think you were involved
01:13:17 house. I don't think you were involved in Wayan's house, were you? No.
01:13:19 No. Do you remember that Harley was involved in it though? I was aware of that. Yes. Yes. And now it was the same time as we could see from the date of this um
01:13:30 from the date of this um I'm going to show you uh as the Grenville Tower project in December 2014. Does that does that ring a bell with you?
01:13:40 Sorry, could you say that again? Well, Whan's House was a project happening at the same time as Grrenfell. I think so. Yes. Yes. Uh
01:13:52 could you go to um page two of this document?
01:13:57 document? This is an email from Ricky Kay uh to
01:14:06 uh to um to Terry Nicholls at Harley relating to Waylands and the subject is firereak lamothm and in the first bullet point he says
01:14:18 and in the first bullet point he says areas where the lamtherm has clearly been installed with the fibers in a horizontal orientation need to be replaced with pieces cut and installed in the correct way. There is a clear label that runs down the center of each
01:14:29 label that runs down the center of each slab indicating which way the material needs to be cut and subsequently installed. See image 0441 as an example.
01:14:40 installed. See image 0441 as an example. Um do you remember yourself any discussion within Harley about how to install the lamathm? Um no.
01:14:55 And then he goes on in par in in the third bullet point to say there were many areas do you see areas where the lamoth has not been installed under sufficient compression
01:15:06 installed under sufficient compression need to be packed out with offcuts of lamthermal fire rated rock fiber to the full 90 mm width of the 60-minute fire barrier. And then he says there were many areas where gaps had been left or
01:15:18 many areas where gaps had been left or the fire barriers were loose in the cavity. The the barriers must be cut to the cavity width plus 20 mm and then installed under compression. The compression can only be achieved if the material is cut and installed the
01:15:30 the material is cut and installed the correct way round. See attached image.
01:15:35 And at the top of the next page, I'll just finish this off. He says, if we just turn to the top of the next page, the vertical fire barriers that are sitting between the vertical cladding rails have been cut too small. there is
01:15:46 rails have been cut too small. there is a clear air gap between the face of the fire barrier and back of the rail where the panel will sit. And then at the end of the email, he recommended an a reinspection once the
01:15:57 recommended an a reinspection once the remedial works had been carried out. Um, just in general terms, Mr. Bailey, were you aware of this discussion within Harley at the time? No.
01:16:05 No. Right.
01:16:07 Right. Were Osborne Berry involved in the installation of the fire stopping or cavity barriers at Wayland House? No,
01:16:14 No, they weren't.
01:16:18 Do you know from your knowledge whether anyone anyone else at Harley, for example, Terry Nichols uh or Ray Bailey uh communicated to Osborne Berry the
01:16:31 uh communicated to Osborne Berry the issues uh that Harley had faced with these products at Wayland House so that lessons could be learned from that project?
01:16:39 project? I'm unaware. Right.
01:16:46 Mr. Chairman, that might be a convenient moment for the break. Yes.
01:16:49 Yes. Yes.
01:16:49 Yes. And how are you getting on generally? Um, well,
01:16:53 Um, well, good.
01:16:53 good. I won't augment it, but well enough. Right. Thank you. Well, we're going to take a break now, Mr. Bailey. Um, we'll come back at 25 to 4, please.
01:17:04 come back at 25 to 4, please. Thank you. And while you're out of the room, no talking about your evidence or anything in relation to it. All right. Okay. Thank you. Good. Thank you very much. Would you like to give the usher please?
01:17:25 Thank you. 25 to 4, please. Thank you.
01:36:10 Yes. Would you ask Mr. Bailey to come back in, please? Thank you.
01:36:25 All right, Mr. Bailey, ready to carry on?
01:36:27 on? I am.
01:36:28 I am. Yes. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Yes. M Mr. Bailey, and I I apologize for taking you back over um ground that is very so ever so slightly old. Can you go back to paragraph 32 of your witness
01:36:39 back to paragraph 32 of your witness statement, please, at page 10, I want to just revisit the photographs which shocked you when you saw them. And you told us earlier that it was
01:36:50 And you told us earlier that it was really the um the results of the striking of the mask climbers which had shocked you. The first question I have is uh did you ask Osborne Berry to take
01:37:01 is uh did you ask Osborne Berry to take any photographs or other visual record of the areas where the mass climber had been attached to the building and then had had to be made good as opposed simply to relying on them getting it right.
01:37:13 right. Um, I don't remember if I asked them or not. And I haven't seen any photos. No, but you could have done, couldn't you? You could have said, "I I'd like
01:37:24 you? You could have said, "I I'd like some photographs, please, of exactly where you strike the mask climbers so I can check the workmanship in that location." Yes.
01:37:30 Yes. Yes. Now, looking at paragraph 32 of your statement, uh, you can see that you list some photographs, um, some eight in which caused you shock.
01:37:41 shock. Uh, and um, I just want to show you one of those if I may. Can I ask you to go to uh, the photograph at 8 52,
01:37:55 but I'm not sure that's one of those that does cause you a shock, but never mind. Let me show it to you anyway. And this is a BLS BL
01:38:04 68
01:38:11 at page 48 please.
01:38:20 Now um we can see here that this is a photograph of ciderize RH25 uh which has a green edge. See? So, it's a horizontal
01:38:32 a horizontal uh cavity barrier installed in the vertical orientation. You see that? Yes.
01:38:38 Yes. And we can also see that it's been installed with the inumescent strip facing into the building. Yes.
01:38:44 Yes. Yes.
01:38:45 Yes. Clearly incorrect.
01:38:48 It's clearly incorrect on two points, on two counts. First of all, a horizontal cavity barrier has been installed in a vertical position. Do you accept that that's a mistake? It's not his intended orientation.
01:39:01 It's not his intended orientation. It Yes, it isn't. And do you accept that that's a mistake?
01:39:10 Yeah, it's uh I think it's sloppy. Yes, sloppy is your word. I I'm grateful. Uh and secondly, uh you can see that the intent strip has been installed facing into the building. Do
01:39:21 installed facing into the building. Do you also accept that that's sloppy?
01:39:25 Uh
01:39:28 Yes, I I don't think um his performance is um
01:39:39 negatively affected um on those um
01:39:46 by virtue of its orientation. Well, maybe maybe you don't. I'm putting to you that by taking a horizontal cavity barrier with an intumecent strip
01:39:58 cavity barrier with an intumecent strip and then sticking it up in a vertical position and what is more with the intent strip on the wrong side is evidence of sloppy workmanship to use your word. Do you accept that?
01:40:09 Do you accept that? Uh yes.
01:40:10 Uh yes. Yes. And can you explain why you never noticed workmanship like that on site? Um
01:40:20 Um I think
01:40:23 I think partly could um could be down to the could have been insulation around that point at the wall at the time covered the intermissive strip up from from
01:40:36 the intermissive strip up from from view.
01:40:38 view. Right. Does that tell us that your inspections, your ad hoc informal inspections uh were not thorough enough to be a that so that you inspected the buildup of the elements of the cladding
01:40:51 buildup of the elements of the cladding system at each element so that you could see the cavity barriers going in. I think the um insulation would have been applied at the same time as the
01:41:02 been applied at the same time as the um cavity barrier. I I don't I don't think this is representative of Well, why didn't your inspections pick this error up? Do you know? I don't know. Other than what I've said,
01:41:13 I don't know. Other than what I've said, it could have been covered up. Well, it could have been covered up, but but if it was covered up, do you accept that that's because you weren't inspecting regularly enough? Equally, it's possible that um
01:41:25 Equally, it's possible that um it was done at the same time. The insulation was appi was installed directly after the cavity barrier.
01:41:35 And that would mean that you weren't able to inspect the installation of the cavity barriers, wouldn't it? Uh,
01:41:46 in this Yeah. In this instance at least. Yes. Now, I I think I misled you by saying this wasn't one of the photographs that that you were shown, which shocked you. In fact, what's happened is that in
01:41:58 you. In fact, what's happened is that in her supplemental statement, Dr. Lane has changed her figure numbers. uh to to a different number. But I think this was can you confirm this was one of the photographs that you were shown which
01:42:09 photographs that you were shown which caused you such dismay. Um
01:42:14 if if the original number is in my witness statement then yes but I I don't remember the exact photos I saw when I wrote
01:42:22 wrote right
01:42:24 right now. You go on at paragraph 32 of your statement to give us a theory uh as to why you didn't spot these issues. Can we just go back to that in fairness to you? At the bottom of the page, you say,
01:42:36 At the bottom of the page, you say, "I've tried to reflect on why I did not see the issues identified, and it occurs to me that the insulation boards would have covered the interface between existing concrete walls and the back of all the cavity barriers, making
01:42:47 all the cavity barriers, making identifying issues described in Dr. Lane's report impossible without dismantling and damaging the finished works." Now, this is something I think you mentioned a moment ago as well. Is it fair to say that you ought to have been conducting inspections at each
01:42:58 been conducting inspections at each stage of the installation? In other words, after the cavity barriers were installed, but before the installation of the insulation and then again after the insulation, but before the rain
01:43:09 the insulation, but before the rain screen
01:43:18 in hindsight, in reflection, um you know, given the some of the issues pointed out, that may well have been a um a better way of doing it. Yes. And would
01:43:31 a better way of doing it. Yes. And would you agree that if you were unable to spot these instances of sloppy workmanship with your inspection regime because the insulation obscured them as you say might have been the reason then
01:43:42 you say might have been the reason then that would also apply for Ryden, the Clark of Works and Building Control in their inspections.
01:43:52 Um maybe not Ryden who are there a lot more often than uh building control officer and clerk of works, but it's a possibility for the
01:44:03 works, but it's a possibility for the other two as well. Yes. But Ryden wouldn't be inspecting the work of your subcontractors. That was you. No,
01:44:13 you. No, I was performing snagging checks. You You don't You weren't expecting Ryden to perform stepby-step, layer by layer inspections of your own installers, or were you?
01:44:26 installers, or were you? I I think there was um some discussion of of them doing that when um Daniel Oskood was on site. I think
01:44:50 well Daniel Osgood says in his statement that he didn't have any direct involvement with the installation. That was done by Harley and he only checked it in in the way he's described.
01:45:07 which isn't a more thorough check than you are doing if I can summarize it that way. Is that right? Um if that's what um Daniel says.
01:45:20 Um if that's what um Daniel says. Well, he does. So why are you suggesting that Daniel Osgood for Ryden was carrying out more regular or more thorough inspections of the cladding system elements than you were?
01:45:35 That's that's a recollection that comes to mind. Right.
01:45:51 Do you know why no proper vertical cavity barriers were actually installed on site anywhere?
01:46:02 When you say no proper vertical cavity barriers.
01:46:05 barriers. Yes.
01:46:08 Yes. Yes.
01:46:10 Yes. I I don't know what you mean.
01:46:28 Do you want to look at the photograph again?
01:46:29 again? I know the Yeah. Okay. You can see there's a horizontal cavity barrier there. Do you know why a vertical a proper vertical cavity barrier was not installed
01:46:38 installed in that location? In that location? I don't know. Right.
01:46:45 Would
01:46:48 you agree that ultimately the responsibility fell to Harley to ensure that its facade installation was undertaken to a professional standard?
01:47:00 I I think it's a a collective responsibility falling on Harley Ryden um Kirker Works CDM coordinator
01:47:11 um Kirker Works CDM coordinator and as the project manager and the only employee regular on regularly on site would you agree that you had the primary responsibility of making sure that the installation was carried out to a professional standard
01:47:24 professional standard as my previous answer part of the procedure but not the procedure teacher,
01:47:31 right?
01:47:36 And how did Harley ensure that the works were snagged to the correct standard before inspection by the cler of works?
01:47:45 I think so. We we do a snag um and that snag is in a way verified by the snag that the clever work does. Um you know if they
01:47:57 clever work does. Um you know if they They on occasion have picked up extra issues but generally speaking most of the issues were dealt with before their inspection. Right. They say now
01:48:08 Right. They say now [Applause]
01:48:15 right can I then turn to a different topic which is uh the O andM manual and asbuilt drawings. Can we first go to H4255
01:48:26 H4255 please?
01:48:30 Now, this is an email from you to Steve Roberts at C and we saw this earlier today and it's got Reo bond. It says, "Could you please provide copies of the
01:48:41 "Could you please provide copies of the warranties for the following items for inclusion in the M&M manual and one of the things you identify there is the Reo bond plus any other technical information heading?" You see that as the fourth bullet point down. Um,
01:48:54 the fourth bullet point down. Um, [Applause] is it fair to say in general that you were involved in developing elements of the O andM manual for the refurbishment? I think I've collected some of the information. Yes. Right. Did that involve collecting
01:49:05 Right. Did that involve collecting various information about each element of the facade that you'd installed? Um, yeah, I suppose it would have done. Can we go to Ryd 3074295?
01:49:26 Now, this uh is an email from you on the 13th of April, 2016 to Steve Butler at somebody called All Group Holdings copied to Dave Hughes. uh and um it's in
01:49:38 copied to Dave Hughes. uh and um it's in response
01:49:40 response uh or at least it follows in an email chain as we can see from the second email down from an email from David Hughes to Ray Bailey and to you and others at Harley uh
01:49:52 others at Harley uh on the 6th of April 2016 which says hi Ben Ray and Kevin we have to present our draft O&M stroke HNS file to the client on Tuesday 19th of April to help compile
01:50:03 on Tuesday 19th of April to help compile the files we've contracted all group holdings and This process is being managed by Steve Butler. I've copied him into this email. Could you please amend them where necessary and reissue the drawings as construction issue by Friday
01:50:15 drawings as construction issue by Friday 15th of April and then you send the email to Steve Butler. You've been given uh his um email address because it's on the copy.
01:50:26 email address because it's on the copy. Steve, as discussed, please follow the Dropbox link to the main bulk of our O andM information. Some items need to be added which I will try to get done before Tuesday. I'm awaiting the issue of the construction issued drawing
01:50:37 of the construction issued drawing package.
01:50:39 package. Now, do you remember what was contained in that Dropbox folder? Um,
01:50:52 a a blowby-blow um list of information. No, but generally I know information would have um as you said it um information about
01:51:03 um as you said it um information about all the major components. Right.
01:51:06 Right. Okay.
01:51:09 Okay. Uh
01:51:11 Uh were you familiar with regulation 38 of the building regulations 2010? Do you think?
01:51:17 think? No.
01:51:17 No. Right. Well, I'll just tell you what it it says. Um it says the person carrying out the work shall give fire safety information to the responsible person not later than the date of the completion of the work or the date of
01:51:29 completion of the work or the date of the occupation of the building or extension whichever is the earlier. Is that something you've ever heard before? No.
01:51:35 No. I see. Um,
01:51:41 when you read the email from David Hughes and saw that Ryden had to present the draft O andM stroke HNS file to the client, what did
01:51:52 stroke HNS file to the client, what did you think that was?
01:51:58 Um, theM file, right?
01:52:04 right? Did you
01:52:06 Did you know that that had to be provided pursuant to the regulation? No.
01:52:13 No. Right. Did Did nobody tell you anything about regulation 38? I don't believe so. Did anybody tell you that fire safety information had to be provided
01:52:25 information had to be provided to the TMO? I I don't remember. when you were uh well let me ask you this question.
01:52:36 uh well let me ask you this question. You could see the email from David Hughes to Ray Bailey and to you and we could see your response on the 13th of April between the 6th of April which is Dave Hughes's email and Ben and your email to Steve Butler. Did you have
01:52:49 your email to Steve Butler. Did you have any discussion with David Hughes or indeed anybody at Ryden or indeed anybody within Harley about what should go into the O andM stroke health and
01:53:00 go into the O andM stroke health and safety file that had to be presented uh to the TMO on the 19th of April? I I don't remember. What made you ask well what made you put
01:53:11 What made you ask well what made you put together the contents of the Dropbox link?
01:53:16 link? How did you decide what to put into it?
01:53:23 I don't remember if they gave us sorry criteria of things they wanted or if I used the um specification notes. Did anybody tell you to send this information to Steve Butler?
01:53:34 information to Steve Butler? Um
01:53:37 well that would have been Dave or um someone at Harley, right? Did they tell you why it was needed? I think just in my memory O and
01:53:49 needed? I think just in my memory O and M's information is always requested at the end of the job. I see. Now um when you provided the O and M materials did you consider any guidance at all about what that should be?
01:54:02 about what that should be? I wasn't aware. Okay. Now, as Harley had designed the facade and supervised its installation, do you accept that Harley were well placed to provide in the information to
01:54:14 placed to provide in the information to Ryden on the components that made up the facade for the purposes of the O andM file?
01:54:20 file? Uh, yes.
01:54:23 Uh, yes. Were you aware that the O andM file, if properly completed, was a way of complying with regulation 38? As I said, I hadn't heard regulations yet.
01:54:35 yet. How specific did you consider that the documentation for the L&M stroke H and S file had to be
01:54:44 um
01:54:48 I wasn't aware of how specific it had to be.
01:54:51 be. Right.
01:54:54 Right. Did you realize at the time that if somebody wanted to uh use the O andM manual in order to understand the facade's fire performance, it would be important that the manual contained
01:55:06 important that the manual contained clear information on each and every component of the facade. Did you realize that?
01:55:18 Other than issuing our drawing package, I don't think it occurred to me. Right. Well, can we now look then at the Harley O andM manual? It's at
01:55:30 Harley O andM manual? It's at RBK3027339,
01:55:33 please.
01:55:40 And it's dated November 2015.
01:55:45 Do you? And this is the first page. Do you recognize this document? Uh yes.
01:55:50 Uh yes. This is 2015 Rev A. Can we go to page nine please? First
01:55:58 this is a table called finishes schedule and it sets out um a group or list of materials used at various locations on the building. Yes. Yes. And you can see there's a
01:56:10 Yes. And you can see there's a description material internal finish external finish and uh if you go down to the second row you can see column cladding level one and above renorn aluminium composite panel and then
01:56:21 aluminium composite panel and then external finish smoke silver metallic dur gloss 5000 satin and then the fourth uh entry down solid spandrel raincreen panels level
01:56:33 solid spandrel raincreen panels level four and above rainond aluminium composite panel and then the external finish is smoke silver metallic Durogs 5000 satin. Now, we can see that it details the
01:56:45 Now, we can see that it details the finishes there, external finish. But would you agree with me that from that information, you wouldn't be able to tell uh what the material making up the core of the ACM
01:56:56 material making up the core of the ACM panels was, could you?
01:57:02 Um, no.
01:57:05 no. So you wouldn't know whether it was PE or FR assuming you knew there was a difference at all? Yeah. From what I said yesterday, I wasn't aware there was a difference. So
01:57:17 wasn't aware there was a difference. So no, but but um the reader of this information, let's assume for the moment that that person did know that there was a difference between PR, PE and FR, wouldn't be able to tell from this
01:57:28 wouldn't be able to tell from this document what the call was, whether it was PE or or FR, would they? No.
01:57:34 No. Nor would they be able to know the thickness of the panels, would they? Uh, no.
01:57:39 Uh, no. Nor would they know how the panels were fixed to the building? No.
01:57:44 No. Nor would they know the fire performance of the panels? No.
01:57:50 No. So they wouldn't know an awful lot, would they, about the um propensity to combustion uh or or the fire performance of the external surface of this building
01:58:01 of the external surface of this building from your O andM entry.
01:58:06 This from the finishes schedule. No, now let's look at the fifth row down. This is the detail for the intermediate glazedin sandwich panel level four and above. The material is PPC aluminium
01:58:19 above. The material is PPC aluminium sandwich panel. Internal finish and external finish are the same. RL 910 30% gloss.
01:58:28 gloss. That's the infill panel, isn't it? I believe so. And from this we can see as you can as you can see it's PPC aluminium, but you can't tell from this what the core of the panels is, can you?
01:58:39 the panels is, can you? No.
01:58:39 No. So you wouldn't be able to tell looking at this whether it was styrofoam or kingspan TP10 or anything? No.
01:58:46 No. No. So therefore, you wouldn't know what or be able to tell what the fire performance of those panels was, could you?
01:58:53 you? No.
01:58:56 No. This this is to finish the schedule. Right.
01:59:04 Let's look at page 179.
01:59:11 This is the information sheet relating to the Celtex RS5000.
01:59:19 Do you remember putting that into the O andM manual yourself? I don't recall right now. You you will recall, I think, that Kingspan K15 was also used in the
01:59:30 that Kingspan K15 was also used in the facade. We discussed that yesterday. Do you know why you didn't include a similar information sheet for Kingspan product?
01:59:37 product? K15 in this case. I don't know. Because it's not in there. We can't find it. Can you explain that? I don't remember. Do you accept that that
01:59:50 Do you accept that that if if the information about K15 was not there then the reader of this document would not get a complete picture of the products used on the building would they?
01:59:58 they? Um
02:00:01 Um no
02:00:04 no and that goes also for um Kingsband TP10 and styrofoam which we saw on the Harley specification as the materials comprising the core of the infill panels. the reader similarly of this of
02:00:15 panels. the reader similarly of this of this manual wouldn't know uh whether those were used unless there had been information set out in it. Um
02:00:25 Um I don't know if the manual included the um specification note drawing that um was part of the um drawing package. Um
02:00:36 was part of the um drawing package. Um well you you don't know if the ONM manual included it. It may not have included the specification note. My my point isn't about the specification note, the Harley January 2015 note. We
02:00:49 note, the Harley January 2015 note. We know about that. My my point is there was no um data sheet or or product literature included in the O andM manual for the Kingspan TP10 and styrofoam that
02:01:00 for the Kingspan TP10 and styrofoam that we know uh form the core of the infill panels. That being so, uh, the O andM manual would not tell the reader what the fire performance was of
02:01:11 reader what the fire performance was of the infill panels, would it? No.
02:01:15 No. No. Do you know why you didn't provide the information in relation to either of those insulation products or materials? I don't remember other than it's a
02:01:26 I don't remember other than it's a unfortunate mission. Let's turn to uh page 182, please. This is P. This is the clad. This is the information. I'm sorry, page 182. Yes,
02:01:38 information. I'm sorry, page 182. Yes, this is the information sheet we looked at earlier in your evidence. Uh I think this morning uh for the Reno bond raincreen panels. Now looking at that,
02:01:49 raincreen panels. Now looking at that, we can see together there are I think three
02:01:53 three different products on this information sheet, aren't there? There's the
02:02:03 uh Reno bond architecture certifications for cassette and also for rivets. You see that?
02:02:14 see that? Yes.
02:02:14 Yes. And there's also fire certificates for Raino Lux. See that?
02:02:21 See that? Yes.
02:02:23 Yes. Would
02:02:24 Would you accept from this page that it's not clear which product was used on Grenfell Tower?
02:02:33 Um,
02:02:37 yes. Yes.
02:02:40 Yes. Can we look at page 192, please?
02:02:46 We can see here that you included in the O andM manual the page that we looked at together side RH and RV cavity barriers for use in the external envelope or fabric of the buildings. You you said
02:02:58 fabric of the buildings. You you said you recalled it but not precisely when you recalled it. This is the generic information sheet about cyber cavity barriers. And if you go on to page 195
02:03:12 And if you go on to page 195 of this document,
02:03:17 uh you can see that there are
02:03:22 uh two tables,
02:03:27 uh each with four different products. So a total of eight products for horizontal cavity barriers. Would you agree that it's not possible to see from this which cavity barriers had actually been
02:03:39 cavity barriers had actually been installed in the facade? Which horizontal cavity barriers had actually been installed in the facade?
02:03:52 As I said before, I mean if if the specification notes drawing is included in the M manual, then tell the reader. from this product data sheet unmarked. Yes.
02:04:11 Did you consider that it would be helpful to include test results for these products in the O andM manual for these products if you had them? As I said before, my knowledge of what
02:04:22 As I said before, my knowledge of what to include in an O andM manual is limited.
02:04:27 limited. Right. Did anybody give you any instruction or guidance as to what the O andM manual should contain?
02:04:35 No. Did anybody check the draft O&M manual that you put together or you helped uh all group put together afterwards to make sure that given your limited
02:04:47 make sure that given your limited experience uh you had collected all the right material and ensure that all group holdings had it? Um
02:04:57 Um I don't think so.
02:05:03 We see or rather we don't see um in the O andM manual the BBA certificates uh for any of the products that we've looked at together in the course of your evidence. It's not they're not there.
02:05:14 evidence. It's not they're not there. Can you explain why they're not there? I don't know.
02:05:20 We only be the only BBC let me qualify that that the only BBA certificate which was supplied was for the rainabond panels
02:05:27 panels um the BBA certificate from 2008 but no other certificates you can you explain why there were no other certificates for any of the other products I don't know
02:05:38 I don't know is it also fair to say that as part of the Harley&M manual you were involved in supplying the asbuilt drawings of the refurbishment in respect of the facade elements
02:05:49 elements I would have forwarded them on. Yes. What was your understanding of the role that asbuilt drawings would play in the O andM stroke health and safety file
02:06:01 O andM stroke health and safety file that was to go to the client?
02:06:05 Um
02:06:08 I think well part of it is um if in in the future anything that was damaged needs to be replaced um
02:06:18 um to give the reader of that a you know an understanding of how everything works together fits together but it's not it's an operation and
02:06:29 it's not it's an operation and maintenance manual. Would would you expect that the asbuilt drawings would show exactly what was built and with what materials?
02:06:40 what materials? I'd say that's a a fair um thing to say.
02:06:49 Yes. How carefully did you check the asbuilt drawings to make sure that they reflected the actual installation of the elements of the facade?
02:07:00 Um,
02:07:04 I don't remember. Right. Do you accept that Harley had a responsibility to ensure that the asbuilt drawings did accurately reflect the components of the facade as installed?
02:07:20 Yeah. As best effort as possible. Yes.
02:07:27 Did you know that some drawings did not accur really accurately reflect the installation of the facade components? I don't remember being aware. No.
02:07:38 I don't remember being aware. No. Can I show you Kevin Lamb's witness statement? That's H30419.
02:07:44 And let's go to page eight, please.
02:07:52 This is paragraph 31. And there's a long paragraph,
02:08:00 but he says uh um
02:08:05 um about halfway down, the wind window vent profile was also changed, but I cannot remember why. I added in the detail of the adhesive foam and removed the local fixing straps to reflect things as they had been built. I did not mark these
02:08:18 had been built. I did not mark these changes up as a further revision as this drawing was not submitted to Ryden or Studio E, which is why there are two versions of revisions D of C 1059302.
02:08:29 versions of revisions D of C 1059302. This drawing was not submitted for further approval as I was concentrating on the fabrication drawings. Were you aware yourself of these kinds of revisions being made by Kevin Lamb,
02:08:40 of revisions being made by Kevin Lamb, but they're not submitted to Ryden or Studio E?
02:08:51 as a general thing. I don't remember it being a common um thing to do. No. Right.
02:09:03 Right. Maybe not common, but were you aware that there were occasions at least when changes made by Mr. lamb were not marked up as further revisions.
02:09:17 I don't recall.
02:09:26 Do you accept that given the way the changes were made by Mr. lamb and then not marked up on further as further revisions as drawings were not submitted to Ryden or Studio E that that would
02:09:37 to Ryden or Studio E that that would have affected the accuracy of the information supplied to Studio E and Ryden as regards the asbuilt state of the building.
02:10:00 So, sorry Kevin's talking about updating the drawings to the asbuilts as builts and not increasing the revision.
02:10:12 Well, did you check the studio e drawings that were provided as the as as the asbuilt drawings?
02:10:19 The studio e asbuilt drawings? Yes.
02:10:21 Yes. I don't remember seeing them. You don't remember seeing them? The studio has built drawings. If you didn't check the asbuilt drawings produced by studio E, how could you
02:10:33 produced by studio E, how could you discharge your responsibility of checking and making sure that the drawings that went into the O andM file were as built? We would have put our own use your own
02:10:44 use your own asbuilt drawings into the O andM file. I believe are part of the O andM file. Right.
02:10:52 Well, let's just try an example or two. SEA 40's 3436.
02:11:11 Um, this this is these are the studio e asbuilt drawings. And I you you may have to turn this um around into landscape or at least enlarge the
02:11:24 at least enlarge the um the bottom, but they they're dated September 2013. But these are the asbuilt drawings. And if you uh look on the left hand side at
02:11:35 if you uh look on the left hand side at H92, I'm afraid you'll have to blow it up.
02:11:39 up. uh
02:11:47 at age 92
02:11:51 uh which is about halfway down just below the man. Well, actually there's another example of it just above the lowest
02:12:02 lowest the the sill of the lowest window. Do you see it? H92. It says thermal insulation.
02:12:10 It doesn't specify the product information. Can you see that? Just says thermal insulation. Doesn't say Cletex RS5000, right?
02:12:19 right? Which is what an asbuilt drawing should say. Yes.
02:12:26 Um
02:12:34 Could
02:12:52 you ask the question again, please? Yes, you can see. It's probably my fault for not picking it out clearly enough for you, but um it if you look at the left hand side and you can see on the ground floor um there is a woman or an
02:13:05 floor um there is a woman or an identification drawing of a woman and then above her there's a window and there's a window sill and just by the window sill there's an arrow which goes out on the left hand side to H92 in a
02:13:17 out on the left hand side to H92 in a bubble thermal insulation. Can you see that?
02:13:20 that? Yes,
02:13:20 Yes, you can. Now, an asbuilt drawing wouldn't simply say thermal insulation. It would specify the product, wouldn't it? Normally, if it's an asbuilt drawing,
02:13:30 drawing, um I I I don't know. Um you don't know. Why? Well, why why is that not why is what I'm putting to you not what you would expect?
02:13:42 would expect? Um
02:13:43 Um the insulation wasn't listed on any of our drawings either. So I thought the insulation was a could be listed somewhere else. Well, that was rather my next point. The insulation was never identified on any
02:13:55 insulation was never identified on any drawings whether in the O andM package or at all. So So how can you explain that the asbuilt drawings in the O andM package didn't even identify the insulation used in the refurbishment?
02:14:08 insulation used in the refurbishment? I don't know. Right. I have the same question in relation to zinc to rain the raincreen panel. Let's just try a docu a drawing. Sea 40 3436 please.
02:14:24 Um it's which I think is the same picture actually. Um I've got it on a different reference but it if you look at this it also records uh at the very top
02:14:36 uh at the very top above the man standing or leaning against the putitive window. You can see above him on the very left hand side H92 zinc composite raincreen panel. Do you
02:14:49 zinc composite raincreen panel. Do you see that
02:14:50 see that very top entry? Yes. Yes.
02:14:53 Yes. Yes. And again, did you notice that in any any drawing that you saw? Um, no. I'm I'm not familiar with these drawings. Can can you explain how it
02:15:05 drawings. Can can you explain how it came about? Uh that there is no drawing whether in the O andM file or at all on the asbuilt drawings which shows reo bond
02:15:18 bond 5,000 dur gloss smoke silver as the product used for the rain screen. I don't know.
02:15:27 You don't know. Um, can I then turn to the CDM regulations very briefly? Uh, as at and after February 2015, were you
02:15:39 as at and after February 2015, were you aware of the existence of at that stage the CDM regulations 2007? Um,
02:15:48 Um, broadly speaking, but not in detail. Right. You say broadly speaking, but not in detail. Were you aware of the obligations of a designer uh under those those regulations?
02:15:59 those regulations? again um not in any detail. Were you aware that the regulations were going to change during the course of 2015?
02:16:08 2015? No.
02:16:13 Did you know that as a designer and a contractor, Harley was responsible for complying with the CDM regulations?
02:16:22 as a as a general um concept. Yes. But not not in any detail. Right.
02:16:31 Right. Well, let me ask you a specific question. Were you aware that as a designer and a contractor, Harley was duty bound to liaz with the appointed CDM coordinator who in this case was
02:16:42 CDM coordinator who in this case was Artilia
02:16:44 Artilia to make sure that the design and the construction risk assessments were compiled, reviewed and revised and updated as appropriate. if there were any design changes at any time. I was not aware.
02:16:55 I was not aware. You weren't aware of that? No.
02:16:58 No. Was there any discussion in the office to your knowledge ever of those obligations that I've just described to you?
02:17:05 you? Not that I'm aware of. Where are you ever asked apart from the email we've seen which says O andM/HNS file the 6th of April
02:17:16 file the 6th of April 2016 David Hughes email were you actually asked to contribute information for the health and safety file as opposed to the O andM? I I don't recall. Do you know whether anybody else at
02:17:28 Do you know whether anybody else at Harley was asked to contribute to the health and safety file? I don't recall. Right,
02:17:35 Right, Mr. Chairman, I've come to the end of my questions. There are one or two which I'm conscious that I may need to go back and ask myself, not ask myself, but ask the witness. Yes.
02:17:45 Yes. But myself ask to find out. Um there may be one or two things which may take a little bit of time. There are also questions I think which have come in from court participants which I just need to examine carefully.
02:17:57 which I just need to examine carefully. Of course. Yes. Well, um, if half past 4 would give enough time, would it? Or if it doesn't, do you want to can if we were to say 25 to 5, would that be would that be unreasonably inconvenient?
02:18:09 inconvenient? Not unreasonably. Um, Mr. Bailey, as you heard, Mr. Mill got to the end of his questions, at least those he's prepared, but he needs time just to check that there's nothing
02:18:21 time just to check that there's nothing he has overlooked, and it may be that questions will come in from others who are not present in the room. So, we're going to have a break now until 25 to 5 and then we'll see whether there are
02:18:33 and then we'll see whether there are more questions that you need to deal with. All right. Okay.
02:18:37 Okay. So, um no talking to anyone about your evidence still. Please, if you go with the usher, we'll continue at 25 to 5. Thank you. Thank you very much.
02:18:48 [Music]
02:18:56 Right. 25
02:41:18 Would you ask Mr. Bailey to come back in, please?
02:41:32 Right, Mr. Bailey, I think there may be one or two more questions, but not very many, I Okay. All right, Mr. Millet. Mr. Chairman, yes, Mr. Bailey, um, were you ever given any instruction or shown
02:41:43 you ever given any instruction or shown any drawings which would show exactly how far above the windows the horizontal cavity barrier should be?
02:41:54 cavity barrier should be? Um, that would have been shown on one of our section drawings. Section drawings. Did you ever measure the position of the cavity barriers as installed so far as you did inspect them
02:42:07 installed so far as you did inspect them against the drawings to make sure that the as installed distances above the windows complied with the drawings? Um
02:42:21 I'm unsure of a specific time that they all measured.
02:42:34 I'm not sure I understand that answer. I'm unsure of a specific time that they were measured. Can Let me ask the question again. During any of your inspections of the work or workmanship
02:42:45 inspections of the work or workmanship o of the installation of the facade, did you ever measure the position of the horizontal cavity barriers above the windows as installed by Osborne Berry
02:42:57 windows as installed by Osborne Berry against the drawings that you had? I don't recall. Right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, um, Mr. Bailey, it only remains for me to thank you very much for coming here and giving your evidence. I have no
02:43:08 here and giving your evidence. I have no further questions for you. So, thank you very much, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Millet. Well, Mr. Bailey, those are all the questions we have for you. Thank you very much for coming to give your evidence. I know it's taken rather a lot of time, but um it's been
02:43:20 rather a lot of time, but um it's been very helpful to hear from you, and so you're now free to go. Thank you very much.
02:43:24 much. Thank you very much. All right.
02:43:40 Thank you very much, Mr. M. Now, that's it for the day and we will sit again 10:00 tomorrow when there'll be another witness.
02:43:46 witness. There will be another witness. Yes. Mr. Jeff Blades of C. Yes.
02:43:51 Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. 10 o'clock tomorrow, please.