John White (Clerk of Works for John Rowan Partners) gives evidence about his inspections of the Grenfell refurbishment. Admits he had no experience with ACM cladding or PIR insulation before Grenfell, was not specifically aware of ADB requirements on combustibility, and says his role did not include checking compliance with building regulations.
00:00:12 yes ms krogan you're going to call the next witness i understand yes mr chairman it's john white thank you would you ask mr white to come in
00:00:28 please
00:00:35 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:00:39 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr white would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
00:00:54 all right yes thank you can you please give the inquiry your full name my full name is jonathan white thank you very much for coming to give
00:01:05 coming to give evidence today and to assist the inquiry with its investigations i'll be asking you the questions today if you have difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please ask me to repeat the question or to put it a different way and also
00:01:18 or to put it a different way and also please keep your voice up so that the transcribers can hear you now you've made one witness statement for the inquiry um it's in a folder on your desk
00:01:29 um it's in a folder on your desk yes and it will also appear on the screen in front of you can i please take you to the first page which is jrp
00:01:39 five zeros three three zero so that we can see it
00:01:46 and then the last page page nine
00:01:50 uh it's dated there 27th of june 2019. do you see that yes is that your signature at the bottom it is can you confirm that the contents are true
00:02:01 are true yes i can have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today
00:02:07 today only with my lawyer
00:02:10 and when was that um before this this has all started oh some time ago
00:02:17 time ago no um just recently all right i'm going to ask you first about your qualifications and experience [Applause]
00:02:28 [Applause] you've set out your experience in your witness statement uh going back to page one please at paragraphs four to twelve i'll just summarize it
00:02:39 summarize it uh here for you instead of reading it all out
00:02:42 all out after school you attended a civil engineering college yes you then undertook a five-year management program with moelem which is a major construction company and that included a one-year full-time
00:02:54 and that included a one-year full-time city and guilds qualification in concrete and general construction yes you were with mullen for 26 years 25 26 years yes moving on now to page
00:03:06 25 26 years yes moving on now to page two
00:03:07 two of your statement that continues your career history uh you left mueller in 2000 and you say there you undertook various jobs including surveying housing stock uh do
00:03:20 including surveying housing stock uh do we take it you mean their local authority housing yes you joined john ryan partners in 2009
00:03:28 2009 that's at paragraph 10 as a clerk of works to be contracted out is that right and then during your time at john ryan partners you spent five years as a full-time clerk of works at a
00:03:40 years as a full-time clerk of works at a project in haringey correct now we have a copy of your cv which was included in john round partners bid to kctmo if we could turn to that now
00:03:52 to kctmo if we could turn to that now it's
00:03:54 jrp50295
00:03:57 and if we go to page four
00:04:06 have you seen that in that format before yes so on this page at the right hand side
00:04:13 side we can see a list of projects that you have been involved with thank you the fourth pull-up point down brunel university project it refers
00:04:24 brunel university project it refers there to having carried out external works did that include any cladding no it didn't it was mainly re-roofing works and internal
00:04:35 works and internal fitting out painting decorating and were those buildings high-rise buildings no next one down homes for haringey project is that the project where you were a full-time clerk
00:04:47 project where you were a full-time clerk of works
00:04:47 of works for five years it says their works included
00:04:51 included major refurbishment works internal kitchen and bathroom works and complete m e renewal new roofs cladding
00:04:57 cladding windows and decoration yes those work similar in nature and scope to those at grenfell tower
00:05:07 no no no rain screen cladding apart from one job at trulock court where we had a
00:05:18 a rock wall and rendered re-cladding answered my next question was that a high-rise building it was yes
00:05:29 high-rise building it was yes and you said they're rock wool and rendered yeah
00:05:35 on that project did your role include checking for compliance with the building regulations
00:05:43 no we we never had a role of checking compliance but we we checked that the building control officer was checking and there was no issues
00:05:54 just pausing with your cv for a second it says on the left-hand side that you joined jrp in 2006. um your statement says 2009 is that an error in this
00:06:05 error in this version of your cv
00:06:10 yes it probably is i did work for a period of time
00:06:18 for john reiner partners uh not just lots of full-time or working full-time for them so i think i worked for them for about six months before they asked me to go full-time was
00:06:30 before they asked me to go full-time was that as a freelance contractor yeah when i started yes
00:06:36 aside from those projects listed on your cv
00:06:40 cv prior to 2014 did you have any experience of the recladding of residential high-rise buildings
00:06:50 no have you ever been involved in a building project that used acm before aluminium composite material no what about
00:07:01 no what about pir insulation in a rain screen cladding system
00:07:05 system no or phenolic no
00:07:10 was the homes for harrington project uh using the rockwool and render system was that
00:07:15 that the only cladding project you've ever done
00:07:19 well cladding could be classified as anything that's on the outside of the building so yes i've done lots of brickwork some glazing stone work another
00:07:33 some glazing stone work another other sort of cladding but never never arranged screen creating apart from the one at true lock court so grenfell was your second rain screen cladding project yeah your cv also
00:07:44 cladding project yeah your cv also states that you are micw and mciob yeah you see that on the left uh what does micw stand for member of institute of clark works and
00:07:56 member of institute of clark works and what
00:07:56 what an mciob is member of the chartered institute of building is that right yes do either of these memberships require you to carry out cpd yes i've i've actually stopped
00:08:09 yes i've i've actually stopped being a member of mciob but i'm still at micw
00:08:13 micw and yes they do and so does our company our company do training we'll come on yep uh mciob then when did you stop being a member
00:08:25 being a member oh many years ago
00:08:30 how many hours or points does the micw require you to do in terms of cpd
00:08:37 i couldn't tell you offend how many between
00:08:40 between 2014 and 2016 were you compliant with your cpd requirements
00:08:47 i would say the number the training that jrp do is probably normally more than what is required
00:08:57 [Applause]
00:09:01 moving on to a new topic now um which is your awareness and knowledge of the building regulations were you aware of the requirements of schedule 1 part b fire safety of the building
00:09:12 part b fire safety of the building regulations 2010 um in 2014 yes i am aware of them yes were you aware of part b3 internal fire spread
00:09:23 spread i am aware of them yes b4 which is external fire spread i mean all the building regulations i've been in the industry 45 years so i i know i've got a
00:09:36 45 years so i i know i've got a general knowledge of them but i wouldn't say i know everything about them
00:09:42 were you aware that there was a requirement in b41 that the walls uh should adequately resist the spread of fire
00:09:54 not specifically no were you familiar with the guidance in approved document b
00:10:05 with the guidance in approved document b not specifically
00:10:09 when you say not specifically do you mean you knew it existed but you didn't know what it contained yes yes
00:10:24 so would you have been aware at the time that there were different routes to compliance with the building regulations as set out in approved document b sorry could you repeat that question were you aware at the time
00:10:36 were you aware at the time that there were different routes to compliance with the building regulations set out
00:10:41 set out in approved document d not specifically
00:10:47 were you aware that approved document b provided that for buildings of 18 meters or more insulation used in the external construction should be of limited combustibility not
00:10:58 should be of limited combustibility not specifically and again does not specifically mean not at all
00:11:05 at all i knew there were regulations regarding tall buildings but not i wasn't actually specifically i didn't know the exact knowledge did you have an understanding of what
00:11:16 did you have an understanding of what the term limited combustibility meant
00:11:21 i think probably now i do but maybe at the time i didn't
00:11:30 had you heard of the term national class naught
00:11:34 naught i have heard of it yes um were you aware of what that meant at the time no
00:11:45 were you aware at the time of working on grenfell tower what the requirements in relation to cavity barriers in an external war were
00:11:57 external war were i know if they're being specified that they they were then required um perhaps if we go to the text in approved document b at this point it's clg 50224
00:12:09 at this point it's clg 50224 page 82.
00:12:18 so that's the guidance there section 9 on concealed spaces if we scroll down to diagram 33 so that shows up on the screen
00:12:28 have you seen that diagram before yes um would you have been aware at the time of your work on grenfell um where cavity barriers ought to have
00:12:40 um where cavity barriers ought to have been located in accordance with that diagram so we see
00:12:45 see there at compartment floor lines yes yes around the windows yes they may be required or may not be yep when you say may may be required may not
00:12:57 when you say may may be required may not be
00:12:58 be approved document b guidance is that they should be around openings in what circumstances would they not be required when the design says so
00:13:14 and is that all you'd ask you just asked the question does the design say they need to be provided
00:13:24 we don't check on my role as a site inspector i don't check for compliance but i check that the who is the person is doing compliance which is a building control is is inspecting and if they have any
00:13:37 is is inspecting and if they have any issues then follow them up we'll come back to cavity barriers under a separate topic later
00:13:44 have you ever attended any training or cpd on part b of the building regulations no
00:13:57 were you aware of industry guidance that provided commentary on part b4 of the building regulations so for example bca technical guidance note on the 18 date of the 18th of june
00:14:10 note on the 18 date of the 18th of june 2014
00:14:11 2014 and i'll just give a transcript reference here so we don't need to pull it up but for the transcript it's cep three zeros five seven two nine four no uh were you aware of the subsequent
00:14:25 no uh were you aware of the subsequent version of the bca technical guidance note 18th of june 2015 no for the transcript that's cel402347
00:14:36 no for the transcript that's cel402347 uh what about the cwct technical note 73 no and that again for the transcript cwct six zeros
00:14:47 cwct six zeros 19.
00:14:48 19. [Applause]
00:14:54 were you personally aware of any previous fires that had been linked to acm cladding no um were you aware of the fire at lachnal house in southwark
00:15:05 yes i do remember it but i didn't specifically remember it as a cladding fire i thought it was a compartmentation fire uh were you aware of any of the fires
00:15:17 uh were you aware of any of the fires that took place in the in high-rise buildings in the uae in um 2012 2013 no were you aware of the fire at nosley heights in 1991
00:15:29 heights in 1991 no and garnet court in irvine in 1999. no when you say aware you're aware at the time
00:15:37 the time but obviously since since then since the fire
00:15:40 fire it's obviously been well documented
00:15:45 were you familiar with the cdm regulations i was roughly familiar yes in your experience how do the cdm regulations apply
00:15:54 apply if at all to someone carrying out a clock of works or site supervisor site monitoring role
00:16:06 i would say it doesn't it doesn't um clockworks or site inspector wouldn't have any cdm um responsibility
00:16:19 i'm now going to ask you about john rowan and partners as a company you've said in your statement at paragraph 10 you don't need to go to it that at the time you joined jrp there were three clerks of works working in
00:16:30 were three clerks of works working in your department was that the position i was at april 2014
00:16:36 2014 yes and that's three including you yes but that did vary you know month by month
00:16:45 month is that because jrp took in contractors to then hire out so freelancers no we did have staff come and go
00:16:55 you've mentioned john rand partners providing cpd and training to its employees
00:17:00 employees how often was that um it's continual uh they um they have often they have uh sessions during lunchtime
00:17:11 lunchtime in the office and they do have one or two day courses as well which which we're encouraged to to go on was any of that training mandatory
00:17:25 yes there were some mandatory ones like health and safety training would health and safety include fire safety no that would be general site safety did any of the john ryan partners
00:17:37 did any of the john ryan partners training cover the regulatory requirements such as the building regulations no did it ever cover fire safety in terms of the safety of the construction of a building
00:17:48 construction of a building rather than site safety uh no the only aspect they did was fire risk assessment of of sort of existing buildings and that would be to check um fire doors
00:18:00 and that would be to check um fire doors and
00:18:01 and and um smoke detectors etc it'll be on an existing building was fire risk assessment something you ever did as part of your role
00:18:16 aside from formal cpd and training were you expected to keep up with industry knowledge about materials and products that are used on building projects
00:18:28 on building projects i suspect would always expect to and then
00:18:31 then i would read construction news or building magazine to try and try and keep up with any information
00:18:40 did any of the cpd that you undertook um more broadly so not just what john ryan partners
00:18:48 partners provided did that cover part four of the building regulations no and up to 2016 did you ever attend any industry seminars or events
00:18:59 any industry seminars or events where high-rise rain screen cladding was covered
00:19:02 covered no
00:19:04 no [Applause] we go now to john ryan partners bid for kctmo for the grenfell project that's at jrp
00:19:13 jrp 50295 and it's page 16.
00:19:19 while that document's coming up did you see the bid submitted to kctmo at the time no i didn't know
00:19:33 so in the third paragraph of that page it says there furthermore cpd is paramount to our company and all staff are encouraged to obtain professional qualifications we've discussed that
00:19:46 qualifications we've discussed that there's then a bullet point list at the bottom it says during the past six months
00:19:50 months our clients of works have undertaken the following courses and then it lists them there yep advanced domestic and electrical heating uk ata asbestos training fear ass fire
00:20:03 uk ata asbestos training fear ass fire risk assessment training condensation dampen decay ms project health and safety on site had you undertaken any of those courses yes all of them and
00:20:15 any of those courses yes all of them and had you undertaken them before 2014 yes i believe so
00:20:27 i'm now going to ask you some questions about jrp's contract with the tmo for the grenfell refurbishment did you know that john ryan partners was bidding for the grenfell tower job at the time
00:20:39 for the grenfell tower job at the time no you said in your statement that you were not involved in the tender process and you said now that you weren't aware of the bidding i think we can take it from that then
00:20:50 i think we can take it from that then that you had no input at all no did you see the invitation to tender
00:20:56 tender from kctmo did you see it at any point up to the fire so is that a document that you have seen or grenfell tower of fire yes i did
00:21:09 or grenfell tower of fire yes i did get a copy of
00:21:13 the tender document probably in the summer of 2015.
00:21:21 that's the first time i saw it
00:21:25 before the summer of 2015 uh did mr verdi ever explained to you what what it said no um did he explain to you the duties it
00:21:37 um did he explain to you the duties it set out that the clerk of rocks was expected to undertake no i missed the word he would never like he wasn't my objective line boss that would be someone else luis serra did mr zero
00:21:50 luis serra did mr zero ever tell you what was in the invitation to tinder and what it required of a clerk of works no but he just outlined a job really what did he say
00:22:03 that it was a refurbishing job tower block and roughly described what was going on and in order for me to familiarize it
00:22:14 and in order for me to familiarize it with myself and work out what i was going to do was to meet the client claire williams at beginning job and
00:22:21 and determine what we were to do now you've told us that you were then provided with a copy of the invitation to tender in summer 2015. did you read it
00:22:32 yes okay we'll look at some of the specific terms in a second
00:22:38 were you aware that under the design and build contract with ryden the kcmt kctmo did not have an obligation to engage a clerk of works
00:22:49 obligation to engage a clerk of works was i aware of it yes no were you ever told why
00:22:53 told why kctmo decided to appoint a clerk of works no
00:22:58 did you attend an interview with the tmo before
00:23:02 before john ryan partners won the tender no
00:23:07 were you aware that mr batty had i found out later
00:23:15 mr batty is a tony batty who was the other clerk of works employed through as a subcontractor to jrp
00:23:24 jrp um to do m e work that's is that right site spectre yes yeah can we go now then to the invitation to tender which is at jrp 6011 page one
00:23:43 so we see there it's entitled site monitoring and supervision services improvement and enhancements to grenfell tower
00:23:50 tower going on to page four please
00:23:57 at the top under the heading requirements general it states kctmo requires an organization to provide two clerks of works to assist in the supervision and monitoring of the works
00:24:09 monitoring of the works one clock of work should have experience in mechanical and electrical installations and the other with building works brackets ideally with experience of the installation of external cladding and then it goes on to outline what the
00:24:21 and then it goes on to outline what the anticipated time requirement would be were you aware in 2014 that kctmo had specifically asked for someone with experience of cladding
00:24:34 at what time at the beginning of the job yes at the beginning of the journey
00:24:40 and do you know if kctm were ever informed
00:24:43 informed that you'd only been involved in one cladding project one rain screen cladding project before this job
00:24:49 this job yeah i think you need to i mean the cladding as i said before cladding could be anything it could be brickwork it could be glazing stonework so you know i have got lots of experience in cladding
00:25:01 experience in cladding but do you know if kctmo were ever informed that you'd only been involved in one
00:25:05 in one rain screen cladding project i don't know
00:25:12 further down into the box um so further down the page to the next half
00:25:22 we'll see there that the itt sets out the duties and it says the duties of the clerk of works shall comprise but not be limited to
00:25:31 to uh second bullet have access to the drawings and specification and be familiar with the same using them as a reference when inspecting the work do you see that there yes i do sixth
00:25:42 do you see that there yes i do sixth bullet taking measurements and samples on site to make sure that the work and the materials meet the specifications and quality standards and third bullet from the bottom
00:25:52 bottom being familiar with legal requirements and checking that the work complies with them
00:25:55 them do you see that yes i do would you say that description accords with the tasks a clerk of works normally undertakes yes
00:26:06 in relation to being familiar with legal requirements and checking the work complies with them [Applause] is that something you have been told by your line manager
00:26:17 your line manager in 2014 would be required of you so i could say that question again please so in 2014 if you're familiar with legal requirements did mr zarowa tell you that that was
00:26:29 did mr zarowa tell you that that was going to be part of your duties
00:26:35 not specifically but by checking that the legal requirements were fulfilled by other people i would say that that's what i did
00:26:47 so you considered that to be part of your role it didn't need to be said
00:26:54 yeah part of my my my side expects were always always to check whether building control had visited site and whether whether um they had any issues and whether they were resolved
00:27:05 were resolved there's a difference between checking whether building control had checked and checking for yourself is it your evidence that that duty required you to check
00:27:17 that duty required you to check that building control we're checking correct but not that you had to check for yourself that the work complied with legal requirements
00:27:30 what did you understand legal requirements to be
00:27:39 well i think my requirements on site was there's two legal requirements it was the health and safety and the other was the building regulations and so you agree
00:27:50 building regulations and so you agree there would legal requirements would include building regulations yes
00:27:59 in the industry is it a standard requirement for clerk of works to carry out that role being familiar with legal requirements and checking compliance i would say no
00:28:10 and checking compliance i would say no not for actual check of compliance we never check or sign off for compliance
00:28:22 we're going to go into some more detail about the scopes the scope of your role on the grenfell project but at this stage having seen those gts uh would you say they are more
00:28:33 uh would you say they are more consistent with a site supervision role or more consistent with the clerk of works role this is a this looks like a general clicker works specification a role what they do
00:28:48 so in his witness statement to the inquiry tony batty describes his role and if we pull that up that's
00:28:56 up that's sda 50238
00:29:01 sda 50238 at page nine
00:29:11 and he says there at paragraph 36 which is about two-thirds of the way down
00:29:18 down second sentence if there are aspects of the insulation installation which i inspected that appeared not to be in compliance with the building regulations i would note that in my reports
00:29:27 reports but it was the standard of installation rather than the detail sorry rather than design which i was checking
00:29:37 is that what you did too on-site
00:29:52 as i walked around i i i if i saw anything that that like for instance any um fire doors or anything that
00:30:05 um fire doors or anything that i saw that um i felt didn't comply then i'd actually bring it up on my report
00:30:13 report but i never actually checked the details of the compliance that was done i think by building building control and had you familiarized yourself with the requirements of the building regulations
00:30:25 requirements of the building regulations as they would apply to an external rain screen cladding system before no commencing your role no
00:30:35 so in terms of being able to note any obvious non-compliances you wouldn't have been equipped to do that would you
00:30:46 why didn't you familiarize yourself with the requirements of that that wasn't my role
00:30:55 move on now to ask you some questions about the scope of your role if we go back to your statement at paragraph 13 which is on page 2.
00:31:07 you say there it is important in my opinion to explain that there seems to be a misunderstanding in what my role and by association that of my employers jrp was on the grenfell tower project
00:31:20 jrp was on the grenfell tower project whereas i've stated above that i was a full-time clerk of works on the haringey council project this was due to the fact that i was involved in the whole building project each and every day in respect of my role on the grenfell
00:31:31 in respect of my role on the grenfell tower project a more accurate description of my role and function was one of site inspector or site monitor of works
00:31:37 works this was because our role was far more limited in its scope and our overall involvement yes you then go on to explain the difference between a clerk of works and site
00:31:48 between a clerk of works and site inspector
00:31:50 inspector uh monitor in paragraph 14 and 15. if i can summarize you say a clerk of works is based full time on a particular on a particular project for the whole project yeah
00:32:01 project yeah and a site inspector or stroke monitor visits site on an intermittent basis and tends to have a far more limited role
00:32:08 role what do you mean by far more limited role
00:32:13 a site inspector
00:32:18 role is is purely dedicated by or instructed by the client of what what they want in terms of of what we need to expect how long
00:32:30 of what we need to expect how long our visits were if they wanted a what sort of report but generally a site inspector would carry out the snagging at the end of the job or to check all the finishes
00:32:41 job or to check all the finishes so it would be the snagging would be consistent but the the actual duration the type of report what they want to look for varies according to different projects
00:32:53 varies according to different projects with different clients and what would you say is the difference between
00:32:58 between a site inspector and a clerk of works
00:33:04 i would say the clarkerworks is generally a term used as a as a person would be
00:33:11 would be involved with the job from right at the beginning of the job from design going through planning pre-contract meetings to to
00:33:22 pre-contract meetings to to looking after the actual construction and then
00:33:25 and then doing all the snagging and then maybe 12 months after checking the 12 month defects
00:33:31 defects so the role will be completely from right at the beginning of the job to the right at the end and even after the defects can you help me with this
00:33:42 me with this if you um if you were instructed as a classic clerk of the work so to speak would you expect to produce regular as we're descriptive reports on what was
00:33:53 as we're descriptive reports on what was going on
00:33:55 going on no because i'd be there all the time and and i'd be um i'd be there at all the site meetings i would
00:34:02 i would have my own office i'd have all my drawings
00:34:05 drawings so i wouldn't have to report i'd be there all the time so would you be recording
00:34:10 recording what was going on i mean i would have a normally you'd have a diary a daily diary and record everything and you'd be involved in in all the decisions and all the meetings and and and you know a far much fuller role than
00:34:23 and you know a far much fuller role than right on the site inspector and you would then be would you the the eyes and ears of the building owner correct
00:34:31 correct with the client yes right whereas if i've understood you correctly forgive me um if you're a site inspector the degree of your interest shall i say
00:34:42 the degree of your interest shall i say in reporting is is a matter for the client to tell you what he wants you to do
00:34:46 do absolutely yeah that's helpful thank you very much yeah sorry ms grogan thank you that's very helpful um so as far as i've understand your evidence it's in both cases you'd be
00:34:57 evidence it's in both cases you'd be reporting to the as is often described on a construction contract the own the employer
00:35:05 actually originally the clarker works would normally be employed by the architect
00:35:15 but recently it's it's normally the client
00:35:19 client under design and build contracts specifically what's the practice oh it's normally normally a client thank you
00:35:28 so would a site inspector become familiar with the drawings and specifications and use those as a reference for checking the work no not necessarily totally familiar um
00:35:40 no not necessarily totally familiar um you know if there was issues or when i was doing my site inspection if there was areas where i was unsure of things then i would then go back to the office and check the drawings
00:35:50 drawings specification then
00:35:54 would a site inspector take measurements on site to make sure materials and work meet the specification and quality standards
00:36:00 standards not unless as requested and would a site inspector check for compliance with legal requirements only check that the compliance team was checking
00:36:11 checking and they had no issues and if so report them in my report so the answer to the first two is no but the
00:36:18 the third one is yes a site inspector would check that building control had been on site yes
00:36:22 site yes yes having looked at the invitation to tender with me do you agree that it was intended that jrp would do all of those things um
00:36:35 all of those things um i've seen lots of tenders and they promised the earth and they talk about lots of things um but
00:36:42 but you know as a site inspector really um we would be focusing on speaking to the client and see what they wanted what they wanted done and that's what happened at grenfell when you saw the tender then in uh 2015
00:36:56 when you saw the tender then in uh 2015 were you surprised to see those obligations no it's a general clark works site inspection description
00:37:07 but your evidence is that you were carrying out the site inspection rule yes
00:37:11 yes and that a site inspection rule is more limited yes than a clerk of works rule
00:37:17 so why weren't you surprised then to see all of the duties for a clerk of works because that's often often the client puts everything down as a clerk of work so you know the term
00:37:28 a clerk of work so you know the term clocker works is confusing confusing to a site inspector
00:37:34 you go on to say it paragraph 16 uh which is at the bottom of that page that we have up that from experience the role and scope of services of clarks of works and site inspector
00:37:45 inspector varies very much from client to clients and then
00:37:49 and then moving on to the next page the paragraph continues
00:37:53 continues and you've already explained this to us today you say a lot however depends on what the client considers a clerk of works or a site inspector's rule to be and what they require out of the role yes and that can vary from project to
00:38:04 yes and that can vary from project to project uh on the basis of what you've said there and what you've said to the inquiry today would you agree that the written terms of appointment are therefore an important reference point for
00:38:15 an important reference point for defining what the clerk of works rule is to be
00:38:19 to be no not really on the tender no i mean i would say the most important thing would be
00:38:23 be our meeting with the client do you agree that calling someone a clerk of works or a site inspector doesn't on its own tell you what that person has been contracted to do
00:38:35 yes people do mix up the two
00:38:39 would you agree that the terms are often used interchangeably in the industry yes would you agree that it's not the case that a clerk of works has to be on site every day um
00:38:54 on site every day um depending on the job if it's a big job i would say yes definitely um but even if it's a little job i'd expect the clark works to be to be there right at the beginning on
00:39:05 the beginning on on the the conception the design stage and being involved with all the site meetings
00:39:10 meetings and then go all the way through and then do the defects so it's more have being involved throughout the length of the job whereas um for instance grenfell i
00:39:22 job whereas um for instance grenfell i started in my first visit was in february 2015 my first official visit which was some seven eight months after the job was started
00:39:33 in his witness statement to the inquiry and we we don't need to bring it up um but the reference is sda 50238 mr batty doesn't
00:39:45 mr batty doesn't make the distinction that you make between
00:39:48 between the role on grenfell as a site um supervisor and a clerk of works did you ever discuss the scope of your role with him at the outset of the project
00:40:01 not specifically no so you never sat down together and agreed well we're being site inspectors on this job not clerks of works and so that affects what we're going to do i don't think it really made it just we
00:40:13 i don't think it really made it just we discussed um that he would be looking off the m e and i'll be looking after the building works
00:40:20 staying with your witness statement on page three if we go down the page to paragraph
00:40:25 paragraph 20
00:40:30 you say there that we jrp or myself were never provided with a formal brief or description of what my actual role or specific remit was until i attended a meeting on 16th of
00:40:41 until i attended a meeting on 16th of september
00:40:42 september with the client
00:40:47 if you go now um to jrp six zeros ten
00:40:57 and scrolling down the page to the email at the bottom uh this is an email from claire williams to gerpal verdi dated 8th of july 2014. and we've heard
00:41:08 dated 8th of july 2014. and we've heard mr verdi's not your line manager but he was the person leading on the bid to kctm wasn't he yes
00:41:17 she says there i'm writing to introduce myself as the project manager for grenfell tower for which your organization was appointed general building clerk of works on 12th of june 2014.
00:41:28 works on 12th of june 2014. i'm just reviewing the terms of your appointment to make sure that i understand the exact basis of the appointment and we'll be in contact with you probably next week did you see that email at the time no
00:41:39 did you see that email at the time no did mr verdi ever tell you that the terms of appointment were still under review
00:41:44 review no she describes jrp there as a general building clerk of works not as a site inspector if we scroll up on that page to the next
00:41:55 if we scroll up on that page to the next email which is mr verdi's reply
00:42:00 um second line he also refers to you there
00:42:05 there as a general building clerk of works do you see that so our general building clerk works is likely to be john white yes um were you aware that mr verde had described your role to claire williams
00:42:16 described your role to claire williams in that way i wasn't aware no but i can see it now do you except that that may have caused some confusion as to what nature of your role actually was going
00:42:27 nature of your role actually was going to be
00:42:30 to be it's the confusion of the clerk works inside expected i mean um i would always clarify that by by when we had a talk with the client we determined what our role was
00:42:44 determined what our role was and did you clarify that with claire williams on the 16th of september yeah we talked about what she wanted us to do uh and and that's what we did did you ever say
00:42:55 and that's what we did did you ever say to her
00:42:55 to her i am not a clerk of works i'm a site inspector
00:42:59 inspector no did you ever explain to her what the difference in your mind between those two things was no because uh
00:43:06 uh um you know everyone gets confused about the term global works and site inspector so um
00:43:12 so um we were anxious just to carry on and do whatever she wanted us to do
00:43:19 going now to another uh chain of emails which is
00:43:22 which is jrp 50335
00:43:32 and on page 2 please
00:43:37 zooming in at the top we see this is an email from louie is it louis or luis louis louis yeah uh louis zoroa to you and tony
00:43:49 yeah uh louis zoroa to you and tony batty
00:43:49 batty yes containing his notes of a meeting with claire williams on 16th of september
00:43:55 september so that's the meeting we're just talking about was it the three of you who attended for jrp yes um and of course tony batty was employed by a separate company but he was a subcontractor i should just make that
00:44:06 subcontractor i should just make that clear
00:44:08 clear um from what you've said already it's clear you recall that meeting don't you yes um can you recall what claire williams said to you about what she wanted you to do on site
00:44:20 wanted you to do on site i think a lot of the notes are there um she she wanted her us to be her eyes and ears
00:44:29 ears um and specifically she wanted us to include in our reports the kpi
00:44:36 she wanted us to to [Music]
00:44:41 [Music] record any issues to her only to report to her and she was very concerned with the residents and she said you know please you make sure
00:44:54 you know please you make sure the residents are happy the works and and and and keep a good eye on them so on page two sorry we're on page two
00:45:06 so on page two sorry we're on page two um under the heading there clark of works rule just at the bottom it says no instructions but report black to clients um and uh to max fordham does this mean that you were not given
00:45:18 does this mean that you were not given more detail about what your role was to be no that i think that was i mean again if you look at different roles clark a clarke works role uh you would be able
00:45:29 a clarke works role uh you would be able to
00:45:29 to issue instructions but she specifically said we were not to issue any instructions i see so that means
00:45:37 means don't issue instructions not you have no instructions about what we're required to do i see that yes yeah
00:45:44 um did you inform the impression at the time of that meeting that you were not being asked to perform a typical clerk of works role yes and on what basis was that
00:45:58 um one of the the biggest basis was that uh here we were we were meeting in in september and the job had already started in june so um
00:46:09 started in june so um you know if if it was a clerk or works role it would be we'd be already involved with with everything that's going on
00:46:18 um on page three of that email
00:46:27 you'll see there's a number of headings there under [Music]
00:46:31 [Music] items to flag up it says
00:46:35 building fabric cladding windows internal finishes so you were specifically asked to look at the cladding the windows and the internal finishes yes did ms
00:46:46 and the internal finishes yes did ms williams say anything in particular she was asking you to look out for no she that was general
00:46:55 uh items under the heading uh info required from kctmo which is right at the very bottom i think we need to scroll down uh it says spec of works and mi manufacturers instructions
00:47:07 manufacturers instructions um so were you expecting to have a copy of the specification for the project i think in an ideal world
00:47:16 world um that would be nice but in reality it very rarely happens and what happens when we go to site obviously there'll be a copy of specification there and drawings there
00:47:27 specification there and drawings there i mean often the case i had maybe five jobs in a week so i'd one job a week so it would be impossible for me to have
00:47:38 for me to have five lots of drawings and specifications so
00:47:41 so i normally use the information when i go to site and i know it's up to date
00:47:48 so it's easier for you to have all that documentation on site rather than to take it away and read it another time yes what did you mean by specification there
00:48:00 what did you mean by specification there in that at that meeting my specification of the of the job would that be the mbs specification would that also be specifications of subcontractors that were building on the
00:48:12 subcontractors that were building on the nbs um
00:48:17 nbs um no we wouldn't normally normally get a copy of that but we wouldn't normally get a copy of the specification we would we would normally um observe it and look at it when we went
00:48:27 went in the site office why did you ask for it at this meeting then if it was more convenient for you and it's normal practice to just view it on site um
00:48:43 i think certainly regarding lewis um he likes to if possible have have copies of
00:48:51 of uh the specification um but maybe it's more for him than for me i mean i know where the specification is it's on site office so um i know maybe he would like to keep
00:49:04 so um i know maybe he would like to keep a copy of that for each job in the office what was meant by manufacturers instructions i don't know
00:49:20 would you normally expect to see copies of manufacturer's instructions on site on site yes they would have all their relevant information on site
00:49:32 and when you went to the site office would you actually check these documents no not unless there was a reason to check them so it wouldn't be that on your first day on the job you go to the site office and
00:49:43 on the job you go to the site office and review
00:49:44 review the mbs specification no i mean when i first
00:49:48 first got my first day of the job which was in fishwood
00:49:51 fishwood which was in february 2015 you know the whole site was alive with people things going on so um
00:50:02 so i think i really wanted to get out and
00:50:07 and see what was going on so i can take it from that on grenfell then you didn't look at the nbs on day one did you ever look at it occasionally yes
00:50:19 did you ever look at it occasionally yes what sort of things were you checking it for
00:50:24 um if there was you know i'd walk around the site and if there was anything i wasn't sure of um then if i need to check the specification i would i think there was there may have been
00:50:37 i think there was there may have been some examples of that i think i on some of the newly built flats
00:50:42 flats um there was no heat detector in the new kitchens and uh i thought that was a bit odd so i i
00:50:53 i thought that was a bit odd so i i checked the specification
00:50:58 uh we'll come back to the mbs uh later when we talk about the cladding
00:51:05 going now then to um jrp 50332 which is another set of emails
00:51:15 and page two again this is an email from claire williams um to louis zeroa did you see this at the time
00:51:30 yes i think i got a copy of that so in the first full paragraph there about halfway through she says that she'd like to skew the number of days potentially for each
00:51:41 number of days potentially for each clerk of works which was originally proposed as 40 days each so that's 80 days in total um but she says there that she needs more for emine yes is that what actually happened that tony batty was on site more than you
00:51:53 tony batty was on site more than you were
00:51:54 were yes i think um certainly at the beginning she was she
00:52:01 she implied that she didn't want me there
00:52:05 there to start with but as there was lots of m e going on she wanted tony there earlier
00:52:14 and also she she implied that she'd want tony more than me
00:52:22 me so did you get the impression that she was more concerned with m e yes with the general
00:52:26 general stage yes at that stage did that concern continue throughout the project or was there a time when the tmo became more concerned with what you were doing
00:52:44 uh i'm not sure um can you say that question again um so you said at that stage uh claire williams was more concerned with m e than she was
00:52:56 more concerned with m e than she was with general builders did that ever change
00:53:02 i would say it equaled out further on down the line when would that have been so um when we officially started which was
00:53:12 was when i i officially started in in february
00:53:15 february um and that was only actually twice on that month but um maybe in march then then we were both
00:53:22 both visiting regularly then every week
00:53:27 according to her requirements um you've said
00:53:31 said uh sorry we've covered that um [Music]
00:53:37 so under item one there we see um kpi she's asking you to report on quality workmanship health and safety and progress yes did you get the impression that progress in
00:53:48 you get the impression that progress in keeping to program was a priority for the tmo yes one of the priorities yes
00:53:55 moving down the page then to item two which is just on the second half of the page uh you see there the heading specification uh
00:54:05 uh she says the other thing i said i would get to you is specification information which is all online i've got new hard copies and there's a link there and did you ever
00:54:15 ever click on that link did you access it uh yes we did try to but we could never achieve achieve the full
00:54:24 full information and there was lots of emails and
00:54:28 and phone calls about that and eventually what we could obtain was only very limited part of the specification
00:54:39 specification which was uh quite a period after we started but um again as far as tony and i and i was concerned
00:54:47 concerned we um we could check the specification when we needed on the site which part of the specification did you manage to obtain in the end i i
00:55:00 did you manage to obtain in the end i i it was tony actually that actually managed to get in i think there was only very heating and rain water pipes or something like that it was very limited part of the part of the
00:55:09 the specification i think that's all i think is all recorded in emails if you go through all the emails
00:55:18 under item three there aob it says further to some of john's comments i confirm a windows i've asked ryden to send through sill section drawings earliest um
00:55:31 sill section drawings earliest um did that ever happen
00:55:37 no no i never actually got the drawings um i mean my my observation there was um in my experience we've had a lot of problems with pigeons and and to tell her that um
00:55:50 and and to tell her that um maybe she need to think about pigeon protection to the seals so the reason for asking the for the window drawings was about pigeons rather than to familiarize yourself with how they were going to be constructed yeah
00:56:05 and at the meeting did you discuss the legal requirements for the project so the building regulations in particular
00:56:14 were you told by claire williams that you were not to check that the work's compliant with legal requirements no um
00:56:23 did she give you any instructions about um how you were to liaise with building control
00:56:29 control no we never liaised with building troll whatsoever we had no no um official time with them at all we never got invited to any of their meetings um
00:56:41 invited to any of their meetings um never asked to talk to them at all we'll come back to that under a separate topic okay uh in the email claire williams
00:56:52 okay uh in the email claire williams refers to you and to tony betty's clerk of works rather than site inspector uh did you think to correct her at the time that she should call you a site inspector no i think everyone mixes us
00:57:03 inspector no i think everyone mixes us up
00:57:04 up the role so we're quite used to it uh if we go now to jrp 50336
00:57:17 uh if we go now to jrp 50336 page two
00:57:23 um that's an email from tony batty dated first of october and you've referred in your evidence just now to having a back and forth with the tmo about not being able to access
00:57:34 the tmo about not being able to access the link
00:57:35 the link yeah this this email mentions that in the first paragraph and he says he may be better to have everything printed off by tmo and for me to collect it what do you think um so tony batty there seems to want the
00:57:47 um so tony batty there seems to want the hard copy drawings yes um but that's not something you felt you needed no i knew it would be in the office in the site office and do you know if that ever happened if he ever got hard copies
00:57:59 he ever got hard copies provided for him you have to ask him he mentions in that email as well that he had his site induction on the 1st of october
00:58:09 october your induction was the 15th of october wasn't it yes i believe so um and you can find that in paragraph 25 of your
00:58:16 of your witness statement what did what did the induction cover basically general site rules um and uh
00:58:29 safety rules um fire egress um and that was it really and then we got a ryden's um
00:58:41 ryden's um jacket at the end of it so it was more about
00:58:46 rules for being on site rather than the nature of the works yes did you discuss the scope of your role with ryden personnel at that meeting no
00:58:58 did you explain to them that you were just there for site inspection not clark forex no just said we're there as a site inspector and we we're becoming
00:59:09 we we're becoming regularly when the time when we're when we're constructed and did you explain that you were not checking for compliance with building regulations did you discuss the
00:59:20 building regulations did you discuss the cladding at all no
00:59:24 were you showing any drawings no i mean i was there for a limited time you know i was quick in and out job really so um you know it's very quick so i did however do a a mock report as
00:59:38 so i did however do a a mock report as well
00:59:39 well so um so i wasn't there for a long talking to them at all yes we're coming on to your your mock report now yes um we don't need to look at the report itself
00:59:50 at the report itself um but you send it to claire williams and the reference is um jrp 50338 page three
01:00:18 uh and there is an email from you 17th of october hi claire please find and close our first site inspection report
01:00:29 inspection report if we go back a page now to page two in the middle so at the bottom we have an email from claire williams of 20th of october 2014.
01:00:42 of 20th of october 2014. john i have not agreed a start date for you yet and only found out last week that you had had an induction
01:00:49 induction i need to monitor the works and your hours which are not yet agreed and then she asks louie to ring her um she refers to having not agreed a basis
01:01:00 she refers to having not agreed a basis for your service what did you understand that to mean
01:01:06 um i think she was she didn't want us to start yet or me to start yet so it was just a question of start date
01:01:19 did you get the impression from the tmo that cost was a concern only only what she said was was that you know
01:01:28 know she was obviously checking the hours
01:01:32 we've already noted that you and tony batty were to spend 80 days on site split between you yeah having done your job now and knowing what you know
01:01:43 what you know about the project did you consider that to be sufficient i can't remember i mean you'd be able to work it or someone would be able to work
01:01:54 work it or someone would be able to work out how many how many as we did how many uh because we did um at the end of 2015 we did more than one day a week
01:02:06 did more than one day a week but i think initially that was sufficient to what she wanted us to do
01:02:14 but however when so much works was going on at the same time especially when the snagging was going on
01:02:23 going on then i asked her you know we need more time to
01:02:27 time to to uh to do that work uh which we we eventually got at the end of 2015 i think for a small period we had uh we work in there two days a week so
01:02:38 uh we work in there two days a week so to
01:02:38 to sum that up in a nutshell at the time you never felt i don't have enough time to do this job properly no for what not what she wanted yes
01:02:53 were you aware of what others on the project
01:02:56 project thought your rule was no do you think that describing yourself as a clerk of works for example by issuing clerk of works reports as they
01:03:07 issuing clerk of works reports as they were titled that others working on the project may have misunderstood what your rule was yeah maybe yes
01:03:18 if we could go to claire williams witness statement that's tmo 00840364 at page seven
01:03:34 uh and paragraph 34 please
01:03:39 she says there tmo also engaged john rowan and partners as clerk of works to inspect various works on site this included inspection of workmanship and quality to ensure works were carried
01:03:50 and quality to ensure works were carried out as designed and to challenge ryden when necessary if there were shortcomings yes and they also had a rule to report on health and safety issues and it was an additional tier of inspection um
01:04:03 tier of inspection um do you agree with her summary there of what she asked you to do
01:04:11 yes so part of your role was to ensure that works were carried out as designed
01:04:22 yes but not necessarily not necessarily compliance but certainly checking to make sure that what was installed reflected what had been designed
01:04:33 reflected what had been designed which we did in a way that we checked that the people signing off that compliance had signed it off that's a slightly it's a slightly different question i'm
01:04:44 it's a slightly different question i'm asking which is were you checking what was installed on site against the design to see that it matched
01:04:55 to see that it matched not specifically not specifically or not at all
01:05:00 at all well again i would say that by checking that building control were checking the design and they had no
01:05:13 design and they had no issues that we were
01:05:17 so is it your evidence that it's and control who are to check whether what's installed matches the design yes okay
01:05:28 okay um so is all you really did on site to check
01:05:31 check whether building control whether building control were coming and what and if they had any issues and they were inspecting and there was no problems and then in terms of workmanship
01:05:42 terms of workmanship you were just checking to make sure there's no no damage no correct um to materials that were being installed yeah it was anything it was it was it was falling off or it was not it was loose or
01:05:53 or our main role was to check the finished product so we do the finishing snagging i see
01:06:01 you were engaged and we'll go into more detail on this um later but it wasn't just snagging was it it was bef you were on site before the snagging happened yes and you were checking works
01:06:12 happened yes and you were checking works as
01:06:13 as as they went along before snagging yes we were observing everything that went on yeah
01:06:18 on yeah peter madison of the tmo has also described your role um have you heard over met peter madison from the tmo yes um as part of the grenfell
01:06:29 yes um as part of the grenfell as part of your role on grenfell yes okay
01:06:33 okay we don't need to go to the statement the reference is tmo
01:06:39 00847337 page 8 paragraph 37 he says your job was to report independently on the compliance of the construction work as it proceeded
01:06:53 do you agree or disagree with that statement i would disagree that not compliance no well when we talk about compliance compliance with what i had rather assumed it was part of your role to check that
01:07:05 part of your role to check that things were being done broadly in accordance with the
01:07:12 drawings we didn't specifically i didn't specifically check the drawings and what was done on site i was i was observing a moment a snapshot of time one day a week um
01:07:23 a snapshot of time one day a week um what was going on and and if there was any problems i was ensuring that that if there wasn't problems for instance if building control had any issues then i wish it would say were some issues then i would
01:07:35 issues then i would highlight those and and try and make sure those issues were resolved right i think if we're going to ask about compliance we need to know compliance with what it is he's supposed to be checking compliance yes mr chairman i'll
01:07:48 checking compliance yes mr chairman i'll keep a clear distinction between with the building regulations and with the drawing yes yeah and going forward um
01:07:58 mr gibson um also describes your role as checking for compliance but he doesn't say with what yes um were you aware that some of the tmo thought that your role involved
01:08:10 involved compliance type checking so either with building regulations or drawings no okay
01:08:23 did anyone at ryden ever ask you what the scope of your rule was no um the ride and witnesses in their evidence
01:08:31 evidence to this inquiry in their oral evidence have also described your rule mr hughes has said that your role was to check that work was in accordance with specifications and drawings
01:08:42 specifications and drawings um sounds like you wouldn't agree with that no
01:08:46 that no and mr martin said that he understood you would be inspecting in relation to the building regulations and relevant guidance
01:08:52 guidance no um were you aware of either mr hughes or mr martin's views of your role at the time
01:08:58 time no did you ever get the impression that different people at ryden would have different views about the scope of your role
01:09:06 role no what about other professionals on the project such as studio e artelia harley no um so you thought everyone knew what you
01:09:18 um so you thought everyone knew what you were there for and what the limits of your job were uh to be honest you know i mean i was working for kctmo so my concern was what they thought and what what i was doing for them
01:09:34 what what i was doing for them in paragraph 48 of your statement which is on page six um you say that you were not required to check any specific items regarding fire safety
01:09:44 safety [Applause] however if we go forward in your statement to page 8 and paragraph 60
01:09:57 i'll just wait for it to come up
01:10:00 um so paragraph 50 you say 60 if we saw any fire safety issues during our inspections they were highlighted to cw i think that's claire williams
01:10:11 that's claire williams um so you weren't asked to do it but you did in fact report issues if you saw them of course um so would it be fair to say you took the initiative on that
01:10:22 the initiative on that aspect
01:10:25 and i take it those fire safety issues wouldn't include non-compliances with the building regulations no if poor workmanship risked compromising fire safety
01:10:38 risked compromising fire safety do you accept that this would have fallen within your remit as a matter to be reported to the tmo if i saw paul workmanship i would highlight it in my report and notify claire williams
01:10:50 and notify claire williams but i think you've said that using materials different to those specified even if they compromised fire safety would not have fallen within your remit no unless i also unless i spotted it if
01:11:05 no unless i also unless i spotted it if i did spot it but um i don't think i ever did well whatever i spotted i highlighted so if you had spotted something installed that didn't match a
01:11:17 something installed that didn't match a drawing
01:11:18 drawing and it was a fire safety issue that's something you would have reported if i if i
01:11:21 if i if i if i saw it and if i if if if i yeah if i saw it that it wasn't right i would i would i know that would depend on you knowing what was in the drawing yes
01:11:32 what was in the drawing yes i see
01:11:35 if a failure to undertake works that you knew ought to have been carried out risked fire safety um would that have been something you reported
01:11:48 could you ask that again
01:11:51 we'll come back to it with a specific example but if you if you knew that something had to be installed and it hadn't been is that something you'd have raised yes
01:12:12 now moving on to a new topic um which is about access to drawings i think we can take this quite quickly because we've already discussed it um
01:12:20 it um if we just go to your statement on page 7 para51
01:12:25 7 para51 um
01:12:29 so you say there we were never supplied with any drawings and had very limited specifications if there was a need to look at any drawings then ryden provided them on site yes and all the specifications and drawing had been approved before we even
01:12:40 drawing had been approved before we even got to site yes um based on what you've already said um drawings were available for you to check on site is that right yes um you were in fact emailed drawings from
01:12:52 you were in fact emailed drawings from time to time from ryden personnel weren't you no i never got any emails
01:12:58 emails emails drawings at all okay could we look at ryd three zeros five eight eight one two
01:13:16 ah so if we zoom in um this is an email from david hughes on the 24th of november to you subject line revised harley drawing hi john
01:13:26 john please see attach the following revised drawing
01:13:29 drawing this shows how we are actually fitting the uplift trim to the cladding panels um so mr hughes sent you a drawing this i think was a request i asked for i think and he couldn't find it at the
01:13:41 think and he couldn't find it at the time when i was on site go to max405878 page two
01:13:56 and zoom in again david hughes and you are there on the circulation list your email address is there
01:14:06 do you see that yes yes sort of fourth line down
01:14:11 line down um dear all please see following drawings attached as mentioned in design team minutes and that includes the fire strategy
01:14:20 strategy um so again mr hughes is sending you drawings there in that email someday yes yes i mean i didn't get i wasn't a part of a an issue a drawing issue i then he may
01:14:33 an issue a drawing issue i then he may have sent me the odd drawing here and there so from time to time ryden sent you drawings either
01:14:38 either for your information or on request yes okay
01:14:42 okay um was there ever an occasion where you asked to see a drawing and were not provided with it either there and then or later by email not that i can recall now
01:14:56 not that i can recall now do you recall seeing drawings of the cladding
01:15:00 uh i did see some drawings yes do you recall seeing drawings showing the location of cavity barriers within the cladding not specifically no
01:15:11 the cladding not specifically no is that something that you would have been interested in where the cavity barriers were located not specifically no and is that because you didn't see yourself as having a role in design
01:15:22 in design we didn't have any rolling design no do you recall seeing design drawings of the windows no
01:15:33 and did you feel at the time that you had sufficient access to drawings i knew that all the drawings would be in the site office yes
01:15:45 um just checking on specifications you said that
01:15:48 said that you've said to us that you had seen the mbs specification on site yes if i could just take you to a particular part of it it's sea 50169 page 63.
01:16:09 so that's the section rain screen cladding um if we go over the page
01:16:16 uh we see it starts there h92 uh did you look at that at the time no so you didn't think to check what had been specified in respect of the
01:16:27 been specified in respect of the cladding
01:16:28 cladding no
01:16:31 see i was only there one day a week so you know
01:16:35 you know um i had limited time and uh my role was was not to not to check all the drawings or any of the specifications so
01:16:46 the specifications so um no i didn't read all the all the the specifications no um if we go to h a r four zeros nine seven three five
01:17:06 uh that's harley's specification for the cladding did you ever see that
01:17:12 no and did you ever ask to see it no did you know at the time what materials were being used in the facade for the cladding panels above the fourth floor no so you didn't
01:17:25 above the fourth floor no so you didn't know it was acm no um did you know what the insulation was being used in the cladding system no did you know broadly what type it was so not the brand but that it was
01:17:37 so not the brand but that it was pir not specifically no um did you know which cavity barriers were being used no not specifically but i saw them being installed
01:17:49 installed uh and did you know what the white window infill panels were both the large ones
01:17:53 ones and the small ones housing the kitchen extract fans and you never asked no
01:18:03 were you ever provided with manufacturer's instructions for these products
01:18:06 products no and did you ever ask to see those no um so you weren't then or you didn't consider it your role to check whether any of those products
01:18:18 check whether any of those products were installed in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions no i didn't think that might as well know
01:18:28 [Applause] uh if we go uh now back to mr batty's evidence it's a different form of statement it's one that's given to the police it's met
01:18:41 3023699 at page 10.
01:18:48 so the very bottom he starts the last sentence my rule was and then onto page 11
01:18:59 that once they had started the installation to go and check that it was a good standard and good quality
01:19:06 um claire williams asked me what i needed and i asked for the specifications and drawings but she told me to contact max fordham uh
01:19:15 uh so i told her it would be best to have a meeting we went to the local office and he goes on i sat down with duncan campbell
01:19:22 campbell and got given both electrical and mechanical specifications i also got an a3 set of drawings for the whole site i checked that he was okay with me reporting against the drawings and specifications if i saw something that i
01:19:34 specifications if i saw something that i was against and he agreed and you didn't adopt a similar approach to mr batty no why not
01:19:47 because i had all the information on site
01:19:51 site if i wanted it mr batty says there um that he checked that duncan campbell was okay with me reporting against the drawings and specifications if i saw something that i
01:20:02 specifications if i saw something that i was against and he agreed yes that you didn't consider it your role to do that well i i if if i'm if i'm on my site inspections i saw anything that was
01:20:14 inspections i saw anything that was um i was unsure of or need to be resolved then i'll check the drawings and specification on site i see
01:20:28 moving on to a new topic which is insulation um you've already told us that you weren't aware what the insulation was being used in the cladding um
01:20:40 the cladding um did you ever hear anyone mention any brand names on site like celetex or kingspan
01:20:45 kingspan no
01:20:51 if we go to jrp 50171
01:21:03 this is one of your site inspection reports uh dated 24th of april 2015. uh if we could go to page two please
01:21:14 uh if we could go to page two please under the box works in progress which is in the top third it says um in the third line down the cladding
01:21:25 um in the third line down the cladding insulation has fireproofing and cladding rails has started on the west and north elevations only uh what did you mean by the cladding insulation has fireproofing
01:21:36 the cladding insulation has fireproofing it means the the um the fire barriers i see so it's a reference to the cavity barrier yes why did you call that fireproofing
01:21:49 fireproofing just the term use uh did you think that the client claire williams would understand what you meant by that
01:22:06 i i don't know you have to ask her okay who told you that it had um fire proofing or was it just something you observed well i could see the
01:22:18 you observed well i could see the barriers being installed
01:22:21 um in his witness statement to the inquiry mr hughes of ryden um says that he told you what kind of insulation was being installed
01:22:32 insulation was being installed on the tower if we go to that um to see the words he uses ryd
01:22:44 and it's page 10 para55
01:22:51 so he says there in december 2015 or january 2016 i discussed with ben bailey and agreed the use of kingspan as harley's had difficulty obtaining celetex from their supplier
01:23:03 and then the last line is the last sentence he says i told steve blake and the clerk of works john white of this use of kingspan insulation material do you recall that conversation no i
01:23:15 do you recall that conversation no i don't
01:23:15 don't definitely not i would have um definitely put it in my report if that was the case
01:23:27 when you looked at the insulation being installed on the face of the tower um did you note any markings on it not specifically no okay if we could go to
01:23:38 to ryd 3055130
01:23:47 and if we zoom in it's about two-thirds of the way up
01:23:54 uh we can see one two three four sort of four floors up from the bottom of that picture you can see some markings
01:24:05 picture you can see some markings on the insulation it's quite difficult to see but they are there
01:24:11 i can't really see it actually be honest with you no um it is a little bit fuzzy what those markings are we think is um kingspan branding do you recall ever seeing
01:24:21 seeing branding on the insulation no i don't know
01:24:24 know do you recall seeing a protective film over the cladding panels with the name rayna bond on it no the only film i remember seeing was the protection to the
01:24:36 the protection to the the panels themselves that which is protecting the panels yes that's the that's the film i'm talking about the film protecting the panels did you see it had branding on it no not that i recall i just remember
01:24:47 no not that i recall i just remember seeing the film on it
01:25:02 um so did you know that the design of the cladding system did not provide for any cavity barriers around the windows no we were not we're not involved with any design
01:25:15 we're not involved with any design issues at all um we we started as said in in february so a lot of the design had been done and but when you were on site looking at
01:25:26 and but when you were on site looking at the installation did you note that there were no cavity barriers around the windows no i didn't
01:25:34 and is that because you weren't aware that that was advised in the approved document b guidance that there should be
01:25:43 um i would say that if there was something wrong with the installation or lack of cavity barriers then
01:25:51 then building control would have spotted that and and therefore highlighted it highlighted it so i would say if if there was any concerns then that's how i'd pick it up
01:26:02 how i'd pick it up by picking up what building the troll had seen what if there's any issues and then i'd highlight it in my report um
01:26:10 um mr martin of ryden has told the inquiry in his oral evidence that you might have been the person who told him that cavity barriers were not required around the windows would that have been you no uh if we
01:26:23 would that have been you no uh if we could go to art 405636
01:26:29 on page 17 let's go to the first page first sorry
01:26:41 so that's artelia's certificate of practical completion yes um did you see that at the time i think i may have got a copy of it this
01:26:52 i think i may have got a copy of it this was right to the end of the job yes i mean we weren't we were actually finished by then so i think i may have got that in a later email after the job had finished
01:27:03 later email after the job had finished um if we could go to page 17 please
01:27:09 um first email which is at the bottom from andrew malcolm on the 15th of july um we believe that's an email to you and
01:27:20 um we believe that's an email to you and we can tell i think from the reply which we'll go to in a second john further to our discussion can you please write back and confirm that all the items listed below and in the attached are considered de minimis and that the entirety of the
01:27:32 minimis and that the entirety of the works are compliant with the employer's requirements and then scroll up the page to a reply from you
01:27:40 from you hi andrew yes i can confirm all items are just awaiting final d snagging which should take place early next week none of these items should affect pc um he had specifically asked you to
01:27:51 um he had specifically asked you to confirm
01:27:53 confirm that the works complied with the employer's requirements and were you giving that confirmation in this email
01:28:04 um what i was saying i think he was asking me
01:28:08 asking me was uh whether all the snagging and these tagging to be complete which which this is what i was trying to say here
01:28:16 say here well he asked you a second second part of the question which was do all works comply with the employer's requirements you didn't answer that question in in this email no did you because i just
01:28:27 in this email no did you because i just referred to the snagging i mean i i didn't sign off compliance therefore
01:28:32 therefore um yeah i was just concentrating on the snagging
01:28:35 snagging um do you think it's possible that it was taken from your email that you had confirmed that everything complied well i didn't actually say that did i
01:28:44 did i so i would say no um thank you mr chairman that's probably an approval convenient moment yes yeah all right well mr white we're going to have a short break now um
01:28:56 have a short break now um we'll come back uh and resume questions at half past three please okay um i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it okay while you're out of the room if you
01:29:07 okay while you're out of the room if you would please okay um so if you'd like to go to the our show she'll look after you thank you very much thank you very much right half of three
01:29:36 please
01:45:07 yes would you ask mr white to come back in please
01:45:21 all right mr white are you ready to carry on yes i'm yeah thank you very much yes it's great thank you mr white we're moving on to a new topic now which is your inspections of the cladding
01:45:32 of the cladding um mr osgood of ryden has described a process of inspection whereby the cladding was inspected by you two floors at a time is that right no that would be no it would be impractical
01:45:46 that would be no it would be impractical to do that um so could you just describe for me then
01:45:51 then how you went about inspecting the cladding and at what stages yes i um initially um i went on the climbers
01:46:03 um i went on the climbers and i had to rely on obviously them to to come down and and i couldn't drive myself but generally i would um get them to collect me and then i'd go on the
01:46:15 collect me and then i'd go on the climber and i would um just check what they were doing um which i did and where they're actually working i'd be in the area where they
01:46:26 working i'd be in the area where they were working just checking that you know all the everything looked properly fitted there's no loose materials or any damage and that's what i do before
01:46:39 and that's what i do before a few times before the snagging started so
01:46:43 so when the staggering started i was asked to inspect it the areas i was told it was ready for snagging that was complete and all finished
01:46:56 that was complete and all finished and i remember the first time they arranged and i arranged to meet um i went up on the climber mass climber
01:47:07 i went up on the climber mass climber and i think we'd always generally start mass climber was was um there was two mass climbers of elevation and um
01:47:19 and um i'd go up in the top to the top of the one of the elevations on the mask liner and initially we'd start the inspections of the cladding for the snagging
01:47:29 snagging i remember the first inspection i did um there was lots of scratches and and the finished product wasn't very good
01:47:37 good and so i rejected it i said i'm not inspecting it until you you look at it yourself and make ensure that all the it's a presentable um finish
01:47:48 it's a presentable um finish so i i then came back at a later time maybe a week week later i can't remember and that's when i started doing the snagging and i had um i always had normally
01:48:01 i always had normally ben with me the clutter i sometimes had a member of ryden's staff with me but we would start
01:48:11 normally an elevation will be ready for me so i would start on a climber that would be right at the top and i would work my way down the whole width of the cut of the climber which would be
01:48:23 of the climber which would be normally half an elevation so we would go
01:48:27 go from top to bottom all the way down every check in every single floor we wouldn't
01:48:31 wouldn't do two floors that would be impractical we would do every single floor all the way down to the third floor because that's where all a lot of the works
01:48:38 works had been finished three fours fours below
01:48:41 below they were part of the lower floor works and they weren't ready so we go from top to bottom down to third floor and then we'd go across to the next climber go all the way up and start again going all the way down
01:48:53 and start again going all the way down and so i'd be recording with my ipad all the snags and then uh i would make that list as a stagnant list um and then i would
01:49:04 a stagnant list um and then i would issue that to ryden's uh who would issue it to the cladding contractor i see um just a few follow-up questions on that um did you ever inspect the cladding before
01:49:17 did you ever inspect the cladding before the cladding panels had been installed not not specifically i mean i
01:49:23 i mean i in my general inspections i did but i was never
01:49:27 was never um asked to inspect um anything specifically before the cleaning powers went on now so did you ever go up the mast climbers to look at
01:49:37 look at insulation and cavity barriers yes when i when i did my normal site inspections i did yes
01:49:42 i did yes i see um you've said in your statement that um
01:49:45 that um you compiled 35 reports i think yes um of those 35 inspection visits how many times did you
01:49:56 inspection visits how many times did you go up the mass climbers um i would say probably including snagging and de-snagging i can only estimate probably um
01:50:11 i can only estimate probably um uh between 10 and 12 times maybe so before the snagging inspections yeah and at the time you were observing insulation and cavity barriers
01:50:22 observing insulation and cavity barriers what were you looking for generally the the work was neat and tidy it wasn't damaged um that everything seemed to be the same you know it was it
01:50:33 seemed to be the same you know it was it was it was um it was all uh fitted with the same detail there was no damage
01:50:43 damage um and the the insulation was there's no holes in insulation the fixings were were not loose um generally i was just checking that
01:50:54 um generally i was just checking that there was nothing that stood out
01:50:59 um you say there um it was all fitted with the same detail so you were looking for consistency yes not checking against any drawings to see yes if it matched yes i see and what
01:51:11 yes if it matched yes i see and what value do you think you were adding to the client by doing that
01:51:19 um i think if it was a uh a job where it was very untidy or it didn't appear to be fitted properly
01:51:33 it didn't appear to be fitted properly all those problems i would notify that to her and and i think
01:51:38 think because building control were regularly visiting and and they were checking for compliance if they had any issues then i would have looked at the cladding more more i mean
01:51:49 more i mean i think when i started in january i think it was only a couple of months after that that building control i got a notification that building a child had
01:51:59 child had passed three floors of of all the windows snagging sorry windows the cladding the fire breaks and and and approved it all so uh my immediate reaction was that you
01:52:12 so uh my immediate reaction was that you know everything was fine with the with the compliance of the snagging
01:52:17 snagging i see so because you were aware that building control had been and building control you were told had said
01:52:24 said the cladding was compliant yes and you felt you didn't need to focus too much on it yes i mean i basically did what i was
01:52:35 yes i mean i basically did what i was going back to before i i did what was required by the client um at this period point of period also i must say that claire williams wanted me to to really
01:52:46 claire williams wanted me to to really focus on
01:52:47 focus on the residents um you know i remember i had 120
01:52:51 had 120 flats that were being operated on and worked on and and her focus was to make sure that the residents
01:52:59 residents to me she kept on telling me i mean i was close conversation with kay williams you know many days and um she often asked me specifically to go to flat such and such to see that resident so so a lot of my
01:53:12 see that resident so so a lot of my focus
01:53:13 focus was was really and what she wanted me to do and that was to to focus on the resonance did any residents ever raise any concerns with you about the cladding
01:53:24 you about the cladding not with me i think when i first uh i mean remember there's not any of the cladding it's everything else going on there's there's there's i think i counted 18
01:53:35 there's there's i think i counted 18 items of work that went in on each flat so every item 18 items of work plus times 120 you can imagine what was going on
01:53:43 on um but when i first joined uh um in february
01:53:47 february when i first there was a concern not that was highlighted to me by claire williams that there was a rattling going on
01:53:54 on um with some cladding outside what the resident complained of and that was an example of claire williams wanted me to check it which i did
01:54:02 did and what that was there was a a bracket that was fixed that was being fitted and you know it hadn't been fitted tightly enough during the evening and then it was rattling of the night so
01:54:13 then it was rattling of the night so then i went up checked um if we could now go to jrp one four seven
01:54:27 so that's another of your site visit reports this time 12th of november 2015 uh and again page two into the building control box
01:54:38 control box uh now just as a general question when you were filling in this building control box how did you get the information to populate that mostly from asking these
01:54:50 mostly from asking these the um site staff from ryden's so it was ryden's
01:54:54 ryden's uh telling you what building control had said
01:54:57 said and telling you when they'd visited yes mostly but i did get also it was in there was also building control information on um kctmo newsletters
01:55:09 um kctmo newsletters and there was also um building inspection control information on ryden's uh newsletters as well and uh and um site
01:55:21 newsletters as well and uh and um site progress meetings and and reports so there was other lots of information regarding building control but by and large it was second hand yes yes
01:55:32 yes um so in that building control box then on
01:55:35 on page two it refers to building control inspecting two elevations of the cladding
01:55:40 cladding um did you attend that inspection with building control on the 12th of november no i didn't know um but you did carry out an inspection on the 11th of november
01:55:51 on the 11th of november is that right you went up the cladding sorry where does it say that um so we have that from a mr hughes gave evidence to the inquiry
01:56:02 to the inquiry um on day 27 page 95 line 25.
01:56:35 i'm sorry i think sorry that's a that's a reference to what john huben would have seen into his inspection i'll ask my question in a different way in around november 2015 did you ever attend an
01:56:46 attend an inspection and go up the mass climbers with john hopin not that i can remember did you ever carry out an inspection with john hoping there at the same time as you
01:56:57 there at the same time as you no not i can remember um did you ever speak directly to john huben yes i did meet him on site yes um
01:57:06 yes um were you ever a party to any conversations where john hogan where you've heard john hoeben being told that the clanting system had been fitted to many buildings throughout england and
01:57:17 to many buildings throughout england and wales to buildings of a similar heightened construction no um will you ever party to a conversation where john huben was told that cladding would comply with the standards
01:57:27 standards set out in approved document b no and did you hear or were you party to discussions where john hoping was told that cladding panels were class naught or above
01:57:38 or above no i mean i was never i never involved any meetings with building control as i said either there was some meetings on site i wasn't invited to that and i only had a brief discussion with
01:57:50 him i'm now going to move on and ask you some questions about cavity barriers so in your general inspections of the cladding
01:58:02 cladding when you were looking at cavity barriers what
01:58:05 what defects and issues were you looking to pick up
01:58:08 pick up just to make sure they were fitted securely
01:58:12 securely there was no damage they were consistent and and uh really again um make sure that the people that
01:58:23 the people that were signing off compliance which building control that they were happy with it
01:58:27 with it um did you ever pick up on any issues such as that with the cavity barriers no uh could we go to blas
01:58:39 and then it's i think six zeros eight page forty eight and it's figure 8.52 if we could zoom in
01:58:52 and it's figure 8.52 if we could zoom in on that a little bit um now
01:58:57 um now what this shows here is a siderise cavity barrier with the marking rh25 can you see that blown up in a little bit um
01:59:08 in a little bit um would you have been aware at the time that that signals that it's a horizontal cavity barrier no i wouldn't be aware of that um but we
01:59:20 no i wouldn't be aware of that um but we see there
01:59:21 see there it's installed in the vertical position um were you aware that cavity the vertical cavity barriers um
01:59:33 let me put that a different way if we look at the green marking there um there's an intumescent strip on the outside of that
01:59:44 strip on the outside of that which when exposed to heat would normally expand to fill the gap in a rain screen cladding system were you aware of that feature of cavity barriers in rain screen systems no specifically no
01:59:56 no specifically no okay so you wouldn't be aware then that vertical cavity barriers usually don't have that stripping or just a solid block of
02:00:03 block of inert material no
02:00:09 do you recall seeing any instances of that kind of installation so the green green colored strip type cavity barrier in a vertical orientation
02:00:20 orientation no not like i recall
02:00:23 um if we could just go back a page or to page 46 about two pages sorry
02:00:33 um figure 8.50 we see another example of cavity
02:00:37 cavity barrier installation here now dr lane notes that that cavity barrier is poorly fitting
02:00:43 fitting and you can see in the top picture the intumescent strip has come up come away from the material it's attached to if you had seen that at the time is that
02:00:54 if you had seen that at the time is that something you'd have picked up yes if it was obvious i would have um
02:01:01 informed ryden and uh put it on my report
02:01:04 report so you would have picked up poorly fitting
02:01:08 fitting cavity barriers if it didn't look right yes
02:01:13 [Applause]
02:01:18 how would you know that it was poorly fitting or incorrectly installed if you hadn't checked the manufacturer's instructions only by what it looks like so how
02:01:32 what would you expect a cavity barrier to look like if it was properly fitted well to make sure it's secure there was no damage i see
02:01:43 now ben bailey of harley's uh has said in his statement to the inquiry um that when he saw the photographs that dr elaine has identified in her reports
02:01:54 dr elaine has identified in her reports and i've i've not taken you to all of them
02:01:56 them that he was shocked uh and that if he'd seen those issues on site he would have instructed them to be corrected the reference for the transcript for that is har3010060
02:02:10 is har3010060 page 10 paragraph 32. would you have been similarly shocked yes i mean it doesn't look right and i would have
02:02:21 would have i would have taken a photograph and i'd put it in my report but as you said earlier you didn't see any examples such as that i mean i was only there at the moment slap touch of time you know i when i went up there was i
02:02:33 you know i when i went up there was i was only
02:02:33 was only there one day a week so and i didn't go up the class climbers every time so you know i only saw a small amount of the works going up and really
02:02:44 the works going up and really apart from when i was doing the setting
02:02:51 [Applause] what was your overall impression of the quality of the cladding installation
02:02:59 my impression it looked very neat and uh when i first went up mask climbers um i just observed what was going on see if
02:03:10 if they were doing everything safely and i spoke briefly to the men they they they seemed very experienced they done
02:03:22 they seemed very experienced they done previous jobs with um ryden's rain cleans this type of cladding um and they they seemed very experienced and what i noticed what i saw normally
02:03:33 and what i noticed what i saw normally if a job
02:03:35 if a job looks nice and tidy it's normally a good way of thinking whether it's been done properly
02:03:41 properly moving on now to the the window installation we know you inspected flats internally um did this include inspection of the windows before they were sort of covered up
02:03:53 were sort of covered up decorated and finished no um so you wouldn't have seen then what was being installed in any gaps around the windows in terms of
02:04:04 around the windows in terms of insulation no i did i again i inspected all the works when i did the snagging okay [Applause]
02:04:17 so we can take it from that you weren't aware of the kind of insulation that was being installed in that location
02:04:26 uh mr martin of ryden says that uh you would have seen that insulation um installed around the windows do you have any comment on that
02:04:37 have any comment on that um i was with mr martin doing all the snagging
02:04:40 snagging and when i was doing all the snagging all the works were finished so i wouldn't be able to see the insulation
02:04:52 i wouldn't be able to see the insulation we've already discussed building control uh in a little bit as we've gone through your questions this afternoon um my next topic covers that as well so if we go back to your statement um
02:05:05 so if we go back to your statement um on page seven paragraph 53
02:05:11 you say um we understood that as building control we're inspecting and signing off the building that it complied
02:05:16 complied this responsibility lay with them
02:05:20 do you accept that just because building control has an obligation to check for compliance that doesn't necessarily mean others on a project don't have their own obligations to check as well and when i talk about compliance
02:05:32 as well and when i talk about compliance here i mean with the building regulations i mean i would say the the big responsibility laid with ryden's the main contractor and the
02:05:43 ryden's the main contractor and the people fitting it and why would involvement of bills in control mean that jrp didn't have to provide the full service which we've looked at in the
02:05:55 which we've looked at in the itt that it had contractually agreed to provide
02:05:58 provide well the full service was a clarke works role and we weren't there as a clarker works we were there as a site inspector and our role was defined by what was discussed with the meeting with claire williams she never asked us to
02:06:10 williams she never asked us to to check for compliance and on the itt he never said check for compliance we've been through that already and mr white the itt did say familiarize
02:06:22 and mr white the itt did say familiarize yourself with legal requirements but it didn't say actually check for compliance
02:06:28 we can come back to that later if we need to yeah
02:06:33 if we go to uh jrp
02:06:38 one actually um grp 50148
02:06:48 so this is your site inspection report of the
02:06:52 of the number 25 17th of november and again if we go to page two in the building control box
02:07:01 uh it says there
02:07:05 we scroll down i think
02:07:10 yes rbk building control was last on site today looking at the cladding apart from damage paddles bits are making good he was generally happy um was that information
02:07:22 um was that information there obtained from a direct conversation you had with building control
02:07:26 control no it was from from um ryden's see so you wouldn't know then what was meant by
02:07:32 meant by generally happy
02:07:42 if we go to back to your statement page four
02:07:50 and it's paragraph 31 you refer to updates um reporting what building control had said coming from claire williams
02:08:01 and you say you received updates via email from her do you have a record of those emails so what number sorry it's paragraph 31 it says we were also sent
02:08:12 it says we were also sent updates via email by claire williams which would sometimes be the source of information in the reports eg visits from building control yeah i think that was
02:08:20 was in relation to the kctmo newsletter which had information on the building control
02:08:28 control i see so claire williams wouldn't send you specific emails detailing discussions with building control or information about building no but actually obviously she sent me an email with the with the newsletter on
02:08:39 email with the with the newsletter on which
02:08:40 which which mentioned building control
02:08:44 could we now go to jrp 50208
02:08:52 so this is an email chain uh if we start on page two
02:08:59 it's a email there from john allen dated the 24th of march 2016 um and his email says
02:09:11 um and his email says cladding nearly complete ensure thermal insulation completely filled nursery
02:09:21 hang on a second sorry
02:09:26 we might need to come back to that that's not i don't think that's quite the email i wanted to take you to but if we go
02:09:33 we go further up back to page one
02:09:38 we see an email from you which says thanks for this david can we make sure we tick off each item please uh what further checks did you undertake to ensure each item had been checked off
02:09:51 sorry what's this in relation to i can only see a bit of the email sorry i um i probably went a little too fast there if we go back to page two we'll see a list of things from john allen
02:10:09 that's a much better quality than what i'd seen previously the thing i wanted to ask you about was item 2 says ensure thermal insulation completely fills voids do you know what that meant
02:10:24 not specifically but but i had thought that there was some gaps in some of the insulation uh and then the email we looked at on page one is you asking ryden to ensure each item is
02:10:35 asking ryden to ensure each item is ticked off did i get did i get that that you did yes
02:10:41 yes so if you look at 24th of march 2016 i'm aware the
02:10:46 aware the the font is probably not that helpful for reading it says hi john and tony please see comments below from today's visit from building control happy to discuss with both of you when you're next on site all right here and you reply and
02:10:58 on site all right here and you reply and say thanks for this david can we make sure we tick off each item please right did you ever follow that up to check it had been done
02:11:09 check it had been done i i can't recall that that uh email um however i may have may have asked him by phone or by by talking to him but i always
02:11:20 always try to follow up
02:11:23 items regarding building control and and and put it on report so i think if there was anything outstanding i'd put it on the report now mr hoban's evidence is that if he
02:11:34 now mr hoban's evidence is that if he had any concerns after inspection he would raise this with the site manager and the clerk of works so that's you um do you recall him raising any specific issues no he never never as i said to you apart from brief
02:11:47 never as i said to you apart from brief discussion he never raised any issues with me at all um he also says that he would raise matters with the site manager or person who was accompanying him on his visits
02:11:59 accompanying him on his visits and the clerk of works when we did joint visits and that's a reference to paragraph paragraph 58b of his second statement um do you agree that you did joint visits
02:12:10 do you agree that you did joint visits with i can't remember ever doing a joint visit with him as i said but i do remember meeting him once on site just the once yes and speaking to him i did see him
02:12:21 did see him other times but i only actually met and spoke to him once when was that
02:12:29 uh i have no idea now but i did record it
02:12:33 it somewhere in some of my emails in an email you say in some some of my emails yes i did record it i remember recording it yes or it may be in my statement i
02:12:44 yes or it may be in my statement i remember remember um how long through the project was it at the beginning middle end i think it was sort of it may have been
02:12:56 the end part of 2015 i think and what did you discuss in that face-to-face conversation oh in a very brief discussion um
02:13:09 i think i i did say um
02:13:14 what do you think of the cladding and i think he said it was a good tidy install so there was no concerns and he i remember syphilis mentioning
02:13:25 and he i remember syphilis mentioning he was very busy doing lots of basements in kensington
02:13:34 um moving on um to a different topic were you ever asked to check the o m manual for the project uh not specifically no um
02:13:50 i remember the only emmanuel being produced
02:13:54 produced um but not no i didn't i was never asked to specifically look at it or
02:14:01 at it or i can't recall looking at it but i remember it being done uh if we could go to jrp
02:14:10 50155
02:14:15 so this is your site inspection report of 3rd of february 2016 and if we go to page 2
02:14:24 and if we could zoom in
02:14:31 there on hang on one second yes if we zoom in under risk items health and safety etc at the bottom it says ryden's are to submit revised construction h
02:14:42 construction h s plan to clear of the kc tmo as a matter of urgency are you just reporting there what others had said or is that something that was on your list of things to yeah reporting that was something that
02:14:54 yeah reporting that was something that the
02:14:55 the the riders have got to provide to to claire because i think there was they were
02:14:59 were being very slow in doing it did you check that it was done uh it was an ongoing ongoing all the time i mean it was it was being updated every week
02:15:10 it was it was being updated every week so
02:15:10 so um yes i mean i was monitoring it and i knew that claire wanted it
02:15:32 i think that also we discussed that at that time we went to some of the site meetings
02:15:36 meetings so at that time that was discussed a lot at the site meeting
02:15:40 um i'm going to ask you now about your relationship with ryden um if we could go to jrp
02:15:56 this is an email from simon lawrence to claire williams and you are copied into it it's dated 19th of february 2015. um and he says there in the second
02:16:09 um and he says there in the second paragraph one item i'd like to clarify is that reading a report in isolation doesn't always give a fair reflect of the overall works and what the end result will achieve and he's talking there about the clerk of works
02:16:20 there about the clerk of works reports yes um
02:16:27 and he says in this case whilst a report is helpful in identifying areas of concern it's only a snapshot of the works on the day it would be more beneficial for my site team to coordinate with tony jones
02:16:38 team to coordinate with tony jones so that clerk of works inspections follow our own inspections otherwise it'll end up causing concern uh do you recall receiving that email at
02:16:50 uh do you recall receiving that email at the time
02:16:54 yes i do remember this email i do remember the incident i think it was tony betty had uh an m e query regarding the one of the new
02:17:06 query regarding the one of the new petitions
02:17:08 petitions and he put it on his report and later on we found out tony found out that the it was regarding um a detail in a fire petition
02:17:22 um a detail in a fire petition uh and we found out that it wasn't a firewall
02:17:25 firewall so therefore um he reported something that was
02:17:29 that was was was not a problem so we agreed amongst all of us that for future reports if there's anything any problems we had any concerns we would we would check the drawings
02:17:42 we would we would check the drawings before we put it on our reports so um and that's what we did we we um is there any issues we used to go back down to the office and check the drawings
02:17:51 drawings um were you aware that at times ryden um thought that your presence was unhelpful
02:18:05 i think i i think our relationship early doors with ryden's was difficult because we became not at the beginning of a job
02:18:18 we became not at the beginning of a job we weren't part of the main team we we only started very late and
02:18:22 and they they weren't keen for us to be there
02:18:27 there and and they didn't really make us very welcome
02:18:31 welcome however when dave hughes started um he understood that we were there to also help
02:18:38 help and we had a much better relationship so i'd say
02:18:42 i'd say um one
02:18:45 um one one team particularly didn't want us to be there and weren't particularly it weren't particularly helpful where where dave hughes was very helpful and we try to work together
02:18:59 if we could um go now to art 406688 um the documents show that on the 12th of january 2016 you attended
02:19:10 of january 2016 you attended a meeting with mr hughes tony butty andrew malcolm of artelia and matt smith of max fordham
02:19:18 and it was intended to be a clerk of words reports reviewed you recall that happening
02:19:22 happening yes i do yes um and in that meeting you sat down went through all of your reports and noted all the outstanding items is that right yes yes um
02:19:33 items is that right yes yes um so if we go to page five of those uh meeting minutes please
02:19:39 um and we'll see there that's uh it starts on the previous page but that's a list of john white issues so these are issues you had identified do you recognize those
02:19:55 yes yes and for from the bottom it says fireproofing all around site needs to be done as per the fire strategy is that something you had identified
02:20:07 is that something you had identified yourself or is this reporting an issue picked up by somebody else
02:20:13 i think um it's something that i i felt needed to be need to be checked and that um i just ensuring that ryden's were complying and what
02:20:24 ryden's were complying and what fireproofing were you referring to fast strategy that is so i think there was some
02:20:32 can't be specific but there was um some fire strategy discussion with building a troll and
02:20:40 troll and ryden's no party or but i overheard so i thought
02:20:43 thought this may be a fire issue there that this just needs to be resolved so you couldn't tell specifically what it was about i think it was it's certainly internal
02:20:57 i think it was it's certainly internal um i think it was um [Music]
02:21:02 [Music] could have been fire dampers in the boxing boxing club i seem to remember but that it was definitely internal
02:21:13 definitely internal i see um following the fire did you have any discussions with other people from jrp
02:21:18 jrp about jrp's involvement with the grenfell refurbishment
02:21:26 you mean staff of jrp yes um yes just my close colleagues yes when did you have those discussions
02:21:38 um certainly a few weeks after the fire in his statement to the inquiry mr verdi has also said that you were not a clerk of works in the typical sense is that something you discussed with one another
02:21:50 something you discussed with one another after the fire no it's just something we discuss
02:21:54 discuss throughout i mean that was i mean for the last five six years i've been doing site inspection so um you know that's what we were charting inspectors
02:22:06 that's what we were charting inspectors then
02:22:08 then mr chairman i've uh reached the end of my questions right um but i'm aware there may be questions from others so you could take a pause
02:22:17 a pause and then in the usual way all right uh do you think 10 minutes is enough yes i think that's fine mr chairman well mr white um ms grogan got to the end of the question she had prepared but she needs an opportunity
02:22:29 prepared but she needs an opportunity just to check that there aren't any things that she's overlooked and there may be questions from others that okay we may need to ask you so we're gonna stop now and come back at 20 past four okay and then
02:22:41 come back at 20 past four okay and then we'll see if there are any more questions
02:22:43 questions for you at that stage all right okay thank you very much again please don't talk to her about your evidence while you're out of the room right thank you very much you'd like to go to the ocean thank you very much thank you very much
02:23:01 all right 20 past four if you need more time just let us know we'll do
02:35:59 thank you would you ask mr white to come back in please
02:36:12 all right mr white we'll see if there are any more questions for you thank you grogan have you found any questions i have found just the the one and possibly a follow-up um so uh mr white
02:36:23 um so uh mr white earlier this afternoon um i asked you whether the itt uh from casey timo said um that you needed to familiarize yourself with
02:36:34 needed to familiarize yourself with legal requirements and you agreed that it did but you said but it didn't actually say check for compliance if we could go back to
02:36:42 to jrp 6011 page four
02:36:57 you'll see there again in the third point from the bottom it does say being familiar with legal requirements and checking that the work complies with them
02:37:08 yes and i believe i did that by checking that the
02:37:12 that the work was signed off by the compliance person which is building control was there ever an occasion where claire williams said to you in terms you do not need to check for yourself
02:37:24 you do not need to check for yourself that the works comply with the legal requirements no never was there ever an occasion where claire williams said to you in terms you do not need to be familiar with the
02:37:35 you do not need to be familiar with the drawings and check that they reflect what is installed on site well i did not could you say that right um was there ever an occasion when claire williams said to you that you did not need to check that
02:37:49 that you did not need to check that what was installed reflect matched what was on the drawings no nor did you say
02:37:55 say check it either either well can you help me with this did she leave you with the understanding that it wasn't part of what she wanted you to do
02:38:06 wasn't part of what she wanted you to do to check work against drawings or no she never parents she never requested that at all that we do that
02:38:14 do that yes but you see council's asked you whether she said you weren't to do something and you said well she didn't say i was to do it yes but i'm not asking you to help us with okay no she's never standing with you left with
02:38:26 never standing with you left with uh as a result of any particular conversation first no she never asked us not to
02:38:33 i'm not quite sure
02:38:37 did you have a can you remember a particular conversation with claire williams where the scope of your work came up yes can you remember when that was well we discussed uh
02:38:48 discussed uh our role when we we came to site on the uh in september right and we had an interview with her and after you've finished that conversation discussing your role
02:38:59 conversation discussing your role yes how did you understand what did you understand your role to be what did you understand her to be asking you to do to be her eyes and ears and to like like we've recorded on the email do
02:39:12 like like we've recorded on the email do kpis
02:39:14 kpis check quality check health and safety make sure
02:39:17 make sure you look after my residence and that that was her focus yeah all right thank you no do you want to follow that off at all uh no i think i think we have what we need
02:39:28 no i think i think we have what we need thank you mr chairman all right good those are all your questions thank you very much well mr white those are all the questions we have for you thank you very much for coming to give your evidence it's been very useful to
02:39:39 your evidence it's been very useful to hear what you have to tell us and you're now free to go thank you could i could i just say something yes um i'm now i've got two more years to retirement i've been in this industry
02:39:50 to retirement i've been in this industry all my life and i just like to say when i started this industry the all the responsibilities were clear that you had
02:40:01 responsibilities were clear that you had an architect that did the design you had an m e did you design a structural engineer that did did all the calculations the architect was
02:40:12 all the calculations the architect was was the lead designer and um he designed everything and you had a builder to build now it's all mixed up and
02:40:23 now it's all mixed up and a builder is good at building a building builder is not good at designing so i think i wish we could go back to what it was when i started well you may not be alone in that but
02:40:36 well you may not be alone in that but that's as maybe anyway thank you very much for your observation uh thank you for coming to give your evidence thank you and you're now free to go thank you very much
02:40:55 well thank you very much ms grogan that must be it for the day i think it is for the day and then on monday it's me again with mr verdi right well we'll look forward to hearing you again on monday we'll now break until 10 o'clock on
02:41:08 we'll now break until 10 o'clock on monday morning thank you thank you very much
02:41:34 you