Home Office & Fire Sector Federation Evidence - Thursday 10th March 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:27 good morning everyone and welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin today by hearing further evidence from sir ken knight so i shall ask the ken to come back into the room please

00:00:48 good mornings again good morning you all ready to carry on i am sir thank you thank you very much yes mr kelly thanks sir morning sir ken good morning can we turn to a fresh topic this morning which is the generic letter sent

00:01:01 morning which is the generic letter sent by terry alifat on the 22nd of december 2009.

00:01:05 2009. now your letter to ron dobson referred to clg housing policy colleagues issuing a generic statement and a letter to housing authorities we find that letter

00:01:16 housing authorities we find that letter at lfb

00:01:17 at lfb treble zero four one two one five

00:01:25 now this generic letter 22 december 2009 the same date as your response to ron dobson's letter you'll recall and it was addressed to the chief executives of local housing authorities

00:01:37 executives of local housing authorities in england and the letter was entitled fire safety in high-rise social rented housing blocks now was this meant to convey the very broad message that anthony bird had

00:01:50 broad message that anthony bird had recommended to everyone yes it was did you contribute to the preparation of this letter no i didn't contribute to the preparation except in

00:02:01 preparation except in the fact that it was following the strategic oversight group that i referred to a few days before this date and would you have had sight of it before it was sent um i suspect i did

00:02:12 before it was sent um i suspect i did but i don't recall but i suspect i did on circulation now as we see on the first page under the heading building regulations and building control the letter says this one point of interest coming to our

00:02:23 one point of interest coming to our attention has been concerns raised regarding the specification of window and cladding systems used on high-rise blocks

00:02:30 blocks guidance on the appropriate specification of external walls and cladding systems to satisfy the fire safety aspects of building regulations is given an approved document b

00:02:41 is given an approved document b fire safety section 12. whilst the specification of window frames would not normally be affected by this guidance infills spandrels and overcladding could be

00:02:52 be where any work which is subject to the building regulations is carried out then this should be checked by a building control body b c b in accordance with those regulations

00:03:03 in accordance with those regulations if there is any doubt over the applications of or compliance with these regulations then advice should be sought from the relevant bcb now is it right that that letter put the

00:03:15 now is it right that that letter put the onus on housing authorities to take action if

00:03:20 action if they had any doubts or concerns about the compliance of external walls on high-rise buildings yes so

00:03:27 yes so can i just go back to the top of the let's see who i was sent to

00:03:34 to the chief executives of local housing authorities right so so yes so it was going to all housing authorities in in all of the sectors for them to be satisfied in accordance with the housing

00:03:45 satisfied in accordance with the housing act that they met the requirements and indeed of the relevant requirements for the building one of the um obvious points that arises about the way the letter has been framed

00:03:56 about the way the letter has been framed is that there could have been any number of housing authorities registered social landlords who didn't have any doubts about compliance because they didn't know enough about their external walls

00:04:07 know enough about their external walls or the relevant regulation would you accept that as being an omission in this letter i accept i do accept that but i would have expected uh

00:04:18 accept that but i would have expected uh each of those local housing authorities to make their checks based on this letter from the director of housing but the emphasis in this letter very much is that they should take action if they have doubts it's contingent upon

00:04:30 if they have doubts it's contingent upon them having those doubts isn't it it is yes and if they didn't have enough to have those doubts then they may take the view that it didn't apply to them is that a risk it's a risk but i hope that's not the

00:04:41 it's a risk but i hope that's not the case by the professionals working in local housing authorities that if they didn't know they should make arrangements to check and that problem or omission in the letter could have been easily cured uh by actively

00:04:53 been easily cured uh by actively encouraging or directing housing authorities to check their external walls and the compliance of those walls with the relevant regulation would you accept that i do now we saw from mr bird's email that the

00:05:05 now we saw from mr bird's email that the intention behind this letter was to use his phrase to avoid setting hairs running was it not the case that the hair was already running and because the letter does in fact inform the reader of concerns regarding

00:05:17 inform the reader of concerns regarding for example specification of window and cladding systems well i think if you look at the second paragraph and and i've only recalled this from re-reading it today for which i'm grateful there's particular

00:05:28 i'm grateful there's particular reference to infill span rules and of course that was exactly the circumstances at lake in our house rather than a cladding system so it was drawing their attention to those particular aspects those panels below

00:05:40 particular aspects those panels below windows that are part of the window frame so i think it probably did draw their specific attention to the issues that had arisen uh without citing like in our house

00:05:51 in our house now one of the points that arises from all of this is this question is why did your unit or clg more broadly never take action suggested by ron dobson and that is to say to ask housing

00:06:04 dobson and that is to say to ask housing providers across the country actively to check compliance of their high-rise external walls with relevant regulations well i i think this was the intention of

00:06:15 well i i think this was the intention of this letter from the director of housing as you rightly say it wasn't from me but i recognized the inferences that you've raised that it didn't

00:06:26 you've raised that it didn't specifically say to check it said in doubt to check and actually to ensure that the aim of the letter was met would you accept the better way to

00:06:37 met would you accept the better way to phrase this letter would have encouraged housing authorities actively to check the walls for compliance with the relevant regulations yes i do thank you and if nothing was done

00:06:48 and if nothing was done then it certainly raised the risk of of another fire like lachnal or substantially similar to latino happening would you accept that uh yes it could thank you could i turn to a separate topic now

00:06:59 could i turn to a separate topic now which is the atherton on i think it's stower you pronounce it fire and i think i'm right in saying that fire took place on the 2nd of november 2007 so about 18 months or so before

00:07:10 2007 so about 18 months or so before lach nor is that right that's correct now you set out very helpful in your first statement we don't need to go to it um the background facts to the atherston fire which took place in a

00:07:21 atherston fire which took place in a warehouse which was constructed with sandwich panels and sadly four firefighters lost their lives fighting the fire in broad terms is that an accurate summary yes that's correct

00:07:33 accurate summary yes that's correct now an investigation into the fire was held and the findings of that investigation were condensed into a document entitled frs safety critical issues

00:07:44 safety critical issues you helpfully exhibit that as kk2 and we can find that at home zero two three one double two

00:07:58 now we can see there it's heading fire safety critical issues it's date the 12th of january 2009 we'll come on to see it but i think i'm

00:08:09 we'll come on to see it but i think i'm right in saying that this document was addressed to you is that right that's correct

00:08:14 correct can you remember now who drafted it um

00:08:21 if i can give the context to this it may help me

00:08:25 help me recall and describe that this is not dissimilar to the root of lacking our house is that there was an independent oversight group chaired by the police in the hse and an independent investigation of the

00:08:39 and an independent investigation of the fire rescue services practices to ensure there was no perception of conflict by warwickshire fire and rescue service and the hsc employed an ex-hmi

00:08:51 employed an ex-hmi gordon russell to conduct that work to bring to our attention the shortcomings found from his investigation and therefore the hscs so i'm not sure

00:09:03 and therefore the hscs so i'm not sure how much of this was drafted by gordon russell or how much came in to be drafted within my team thank you now we can see that it opens under the heading safety critical issues and below that the

00:09:15 critical issues and below that the subheading national issues emboldened and it says this the joint investigation under the work related death protocol did agree to alert you sir ken to any

00:09:27 did agree to alert you sir ken to any frs safety critical issues that we found during the course of our investigation into the warwickshire firefighter fatalities which may have wider implications for the frs

00:09:38 implications for the frs nationally and we see two paragraphs below that opening a section headed breathing apparatus

00:09:45 apparatus and if we turn over leaf to page two and if we look at the bottom or towards the foot of page 2 we see

00:09:54 we see the heading fire behavior and below that knowledge of building construction now the text under the latter paragraph that says this and apologies for having to listen to me read out stuff again

00:10:07 to listen to me read out stuff again in january 2008 you as chief fire and rescue advisor reminded fire and rescue services

00:10:14 services of the need to ensure that operational risk information was available to firefighters in relation to high-risk buildings within their areas in particular the danger when fighting fires in internal thermo-clad panel open

00:10:28 fires in internal thermo-clad panel open brackets sandwich panel closed brackets buildings was highlighted dear chief officer letters dcol 3 96

00:10:39 3 96 15

00:10:40 15 99

00:10:41 99 and 4

00:10:42 and 4 2001

00:10:44 2001 in conjunction with the frdg report just stopping there i think frdg stands for fire research and development group is that right that's correct

00:10:55 that right that's correct report firefighting options for fires involving sandwich panels describe the hazards and actions required to ensure firefighter safety when fighting fires in sandwich panel buildings

00:11:07 in sandwich panel buildings we feel it is important that fire and rescue services are reminded that firefighters and in particular oic's officers in command presumably officers in charge so they um they would probably

00:11:20 in charge so they um they would probably call them instant commanders now thank you but they were called oics then oics will only be able to make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks at operational incidents if they are able

00:11:31 operational incidents if they are able to recognize building construction types and the impact that these buildings have on fire behavior when attending fires in high risk buildings attending firefighters will only be alerted to critical safety

00:11:42 only be alerted to critical safety issues by knowledge of the building construction risks inherent in these and other types of buildings this should also have an impact on the wider national initial and continuation training requirements for firefighters

00:11:54 training requirements for firefighters and their managers now we'll see in a moment you did go and publish a circular on these topics in due course but would it be fair to assume that you agreed

00:12:05 it be fair to assume that you agreed with the sentiment that incident commanders needed to be familiar with building construction types and the risks arising from the various different types of construction yes i did and do

00:12:16 construction yes i did and do did you also agree with the suggestion that this should have had or should have an impact on initial and continuation training requirements for firefighters

00:12:27 training requirements for firefighters and their managers certainly were you aware of other fires in this country

00:12:33 country involving modern methods of construction and or paneling these referred to here the inquiries heard before were what were described as sandwich

00:12:44 were what were described as sandwich panels these are internal wall panels that are often found in in

00:12:49 in food production plant in this case it was a vegetable packing plant often movable within the building itself but are easy to a light and easy to clean and so on and there had previously been

00:13:01 and so on and there had previously been a sandwich panel fire in hereford and worcester for which these early warnings came from in some of those early deer chief officer letters so this was not external cladding of course but it was sandwich panels that would often used in

00:13:14 sandwich panels that would often used in fruit fruit packing and food production premises so the answer is yes there was previous knowledge of sandwich panel fires thank you now you issued a circular

00:13:26 now you issued a circular 18-2009 um which we can find at h-o-m zero two three two one three

00:13:38 as we can see top right it's dated the 23rd of march 2009 as the issue date and in the top left we see the circular number as i said 18 2009

00:13:49 number as i said 18 2009 can we go to page four in the circular

00:13:54 and we see section four on the bottom a quarter of that page and it's headed knowledge of building construction and the first paragraph 4.1 is very similar and echoes the safety

00:14:06 is very similar and echoes the safety criticals report we've just considered together

00:14:09 together and references various previous communications made by you on the topic of sandwich panels if we can turn over the page to page 5

00:14:19 we can see at the very top paragraph 4.2 reads thus fire and rescue services are reminded that firefighters and in particular instant commanders will only be able to

00:14:31 instant commanders will only be able to make a suitable and sufficient assessment of the risks at operational incidents including being alerted to critical safety issues if they are able to recognize building construction types

00:14:42 construction types and the impact that these buildings have on fire behavior fras says that fire risk assessors no it's far risk fire rescue authorities fire rescue authorities yes are

00:14:53 fire rescue authorities yes are therefore reminded of their responsibility to ensure that safety critical information is available to incident commanders and all personnel in respect of risks within their areas arrangements should be in place to

00:15:05 arrangements should be in place to ensure personnel can recognize types of building construction now very mindful the context of sandwich panels here as you know fairly emphasized the advice though

00:15:16 know fairly emphasized the advice though is not limited to sandwich panels and is instead concerned with the risk from a number of different building construction types is that a fair reading of the circular yes it is does it follow that you considered it

00:15:29 does it follow that you considered it obviously important at the time to flag up the fact of different construction types and the different types of risks that may flow from those different construction types it does and i might just add if i may it

00:15:42 it does and i might just add if i may it was deliberately addressed of course the fire rescue authorities because they are the statutory bodies responsible for health and safety and indeed the application and statutory responsibility

00:15:53 application and statutory responsibility to the fire rescue service act 2004 and all you've heard through this inquiry it's in picking up on that point that the addresses were fire and rescue authorities who had responsible for health and safety and in particular

00:16:05 health and safety and in particular training

00:16:06 training the one point that's noticeable about this circular is that it's silent on the training requirements that need to be put in place which is in contrast to the

00:16:17 place which is in contrast to the emphasis put on training and safety critical issues first of all do you accept that the circular didn't deal with training if so can you explain why it didn't deal with training

00:16:28 didn't deal with training um

00:16:29 um it doesn't it doesn't specifically say training but of course the fire rescue authority has an equally equal responsibility for that as well to make firefighters safe in the under the fire

00:16:41 firefighters safe in the under the fire services act of fire rescue services act and indeed by implication to ensure that knowledge is there uh both and at first entrance stage and continuing assessment

00:16:52 entrance stage and continuing assessment throughout the career to incident commanders does require training by definition so you accept that training's not mentioned there did you apply your mind at the time of

00:17:03 did you apply your mind at the time of drafting of this circular as to whether training should be expressly addressed in this circular given that it was expressly addressed and raised in the safety critical issues report that you

00:17:14 safety critical issues report that you received no i i regret that now if it's if it wasn't clear i'm now reading it but but i as i said i had hope being able to make suitable and sufficient assessment would it itself uh require

00:17:25 assessment would it itself uh require training although uh not specifically saying therefore this needs trading i accept that point and again there's no reason why training could not have been expressly emphasized in this circuit no

00:17:37 expressly emphasized in this circuit no thank you

00:17:41 what steps could you practically take in your position to ensure that the recommendations and advice you'd given in this circular were practically implemented by fire and rescue

00:17:52 implemented by fire and rescue authorities in england um

00:17:56 very or none i'm afraid because this was the hiatus between the hmi the demise of the emergency inspector some two or three years before this course

00:18:08 this course and the formation of a chief fire rescue advisory unit which had no uh responsibility for assessment or

00:18:17 or public reporting that was available and now is again available through the hmi uh and therefore it's true to say this was passing this to the statuary responsibility who had

00:18:30 to the statuary responsibility who had the responsibility but not government thank you and presumably you'd emphasize the point that such enforcement role as you had was confined to the very narrow area of crown premises and the application the

00:18:42 crown premises and the application the 2005 order yes a very a very restricted area now we heard in module 5 that both the bre and warwickshire fire and rescue service produced reports on the atherton

00:18:53 service produced reports on the atherton fire in 2012 and 2014 respectively do you remember the fact of those reports again

00:19:01 again sorry could you just repeat the question again yes

00:19:04 again yes the bre and warwickshire fire and rescue service each produced reports on the atherston fire the bre produced theirs in 2012 warwickshire produced theirs in 2014. do you remember those reports i

00:19:15 2014. do you remember those reports i don't remember those reports now can we um go to an email sent by you on the 29th of august 2012 to chris bolton and we find that at home quadruple 0-5817

00:19:34 and we see halfway down the page you say this

00:19:37 this chris

00:19:39 chris in preparation for our meeting with c fur that's the chief fire officers association in the light of our meeting yesterday we will need to consider the attached information in particular if the matters are already

00:19:52 in particular if the matters are already covered in national guidance now the attached information we find at hom quadruple zero five eight one eight

00:20:13 now the attached information that ken was a suite of operational bulletins issued by warwickshire fire and rescue services we can see there now looking at the first page we see a

00:20:24 now looking at the first page we see a bulletin published in march 2012 we can see from the top right and it's entitled insulating properties of non-combustible sandwich panels and if i could ask you

00:20:36 sandwich panels and if i could ask you to look at the first paragraph which is the introduction that says this this bulletin is the first of several which will be released as a result of recent experimental work carried out for

00:20:47 recent experimental work carried out for the service by bre global whilst the primary purpose of this work was to inform computer modelling the initial indications are considered to be safety critical and significant enough

00:20:59 safety critical and significant enough to warrant immediate communication now if we can move to the third paragraph on that page the bulletin said this whilst the existing national guidance repeated briefly over leaf

00:21:12 repeated briefly over leaf covers some hazards it does not reflect all of the hazards to firefighters that may be posed by panels with non-combustible or limited combustibility cores

00:21:23 combustibility cores and then the bulletin then proceeds as we see further down the page to set out hazards associated with insulated sandwich panels and we don't need to go through those but over the page

00:21:36 through those but over the page the bulletin sets out under another heading

00:21:39 heading previously known hazards from sandwich panels

00:21:43 panels and the text below that heading says this the following hazard should already be known to firefighters but should now be considered alongside the new information issued above

00:21:54 information issued above and the second paragraph below that says this the risks associated with combustible cause sorry the risk associated with panels with combustible cores we're said to include and we can see there hidden fire spread

00:22:06 and we can see there hidden fire spread within the panels production of black toxic smoke and pertinently rapid fire spread leaving to flashover and then finally below that we see an emboldened heading

00:22:18 below that we see an emboldened heading risk information and the text below that says this

00:22:22 says this when gathering and reviewing premises risk information or conducting joint 017 rro inspections can you help us 017 what would that be well i think that this is a warwickshire

00:22:34 well i think that this is a warwickshire fire rescue service document so i ro would have what i now call the fire safety or the fso um

00:22:41 um the 017 i suspect was 72d in the format they were being used in warwickshire but i'm second guessing what i'm reading i'd assume that was the case but you can't

00:22:52 assume that was the case but you can't think of a country i can't assumption no um crews should be mindful of these potential hazards and should consider the construction of the building along with its function crews should already be noting the

00:23:03 crews should already be noting the presence of sandwich panels on o17 forms and this should now act as a prompt to gather any information available on the type of panels involved combustible or fire resistant and how extensively they

00:23:16 fire resistant and how extensively they are used within the building now we saw a few moments ago your email to chris bolton that consideration would need to be given to whether this information was in national guidance

00:23:28 was in national guidance now following that direction of yours to chris bolton what conclusion did you or your unit reach on that point i

00:23:38 i i believe we reconcluded that these issues were covered in the gra that had previously been issued regarding um

00:23:50 regarding um regarding cladding panels uh that's my recollection um what

00:23:56 um what practical steps did you take if any to ensure that national guidance fully and emphatically reflected the the no the hazards set out in this warwickshire bulletin

00:24:07 warwickshire bulletin um

00:24:08 um that was the purpose of my note chris bolton who you may recall from yesterday was chairing the project board for the national operational guidance program to check that against the work flowing

00:24:20 to check that against the work flowing through that work now are you saying that the hazards were addressed in gra 3.2 or were those hazards specifically addressed in another generic risk assessment

00:24:33 another generic risk assessment i

00:24:34 i i can't recall precisely but my understanding at the time was that they were already covered in ura 3.2 but they may have been covered

00:24:45 ura 3.2 but they may have been covered in the instant command ura as well but when you say it was your understanding at the time did you go back and read the relevant gra's yourself or did you rely upon the

00:24:56 gra's yourself or did you rely upon the advice and briefing provided by chris bolton or someone else in your unit no i i relied on others to do that i had every confidence in the team that i had who were all professional fire officers and obviously common but you didn't

00:25:09 and obviously common but you didn't undertake the straightforward task of reading the relevant gra's yourself i didn't

00:25:16 when you were considering the role of panels at latino house and commissioner dobson suggested that housing authorities be asked to check the specification of panels on high-rise buildings did you have atherton in mind

00:25:28 buildings did you have atherton in mind and particular the lessons of atherton regarding hazards posed by particular types of panels um

00:25:35 um no i i didn't and that that last sentence in risk information which is warwick's sentence not mine how extensive they use within the building is still specifically talking about

00:25:46 is still specifically talking about those internal sandwich panels rather than the external construction now in june 2012 you received an email which we can find at home quadruple zero

00:25:58 which we can find at home quadruple zero five seven eight four uh from dr james uh glock ling i think he went by the name of jim

00:26:06 who is technical director of the fire protection association and we can see he said this as promised interesting video footage of a fire on a very modern building

00:26:17 a fire on a very modern building climbing up flammable external cladding very rapid development and he provided two links with information about the ruby

00:26:25 ruby cladding fire in may 2012. can you remember now what had prompted dr glockling to send you information about the ruby fire

00:26:37 about the ruby fire jim glockling was and is a member of the fire protection association as you can see from the email heading uh and we referred to the fpa yesterday in the operational guidance if you remember who

00:26:49 operational guidance if you remember who jointly wrote with the chief forest association about sector-led guidance and so he was very engaged in uh what was happening elsewhere about cladding fires and this

00:27:02 elsewhere about cladding fires and this would have been one of those emails that he he sent me i had a number of conversations with jim glocklin uh dr glockling gave you the instruction to polish up your french um no disrespects

00:27:13 polish up your french um no disrespects again was your friend up to understanding um what uh message was being conveyed in those various videos no i'm afraid my school boy french didn't allow me to read this technical document and and uh understand the

00:27:24 document and and uh understand the detail of it but you've got a video there the first link exactly daily motion did the video speak louder than words for these purposes

00:27:32 purposes yes it did it did and what was your reaction upon seeing the video of what dr glockling had described as very rapid development presumably of an external fire uh

00:27:43 uh exactly what he described there that was a very modern building construction and though by then that was 2012 of course yes and the external flooding was rapid

00:27:54 rapid and did uh the scene of the ruby fire mindful of your concern that there'll be a knowledge of different risks arising out of different

00:28:05 different risks arising out of different construction techniques did that prompt you to reconsider your earlier response to ron dobson's recommendation of a more direct encouragement to housing authorities to

00:28:16 encouragement to housing authorities to check the compliance of our external walls no i regret it didn't if you wait for me to finish the question to check compliance with relevant regulations uh i regret it didn't because

00:28:28 uh i regret it didn't because even at this point the and and beyond the lacking our house fire was not considered to be an external cladding fire there was external fire spreads but i returned to the point yesterday so

00:28:40 i returned to the point yesterday so there was not a connection being made between external cladding systems and

00:28:46 and the type of file we're talking about here or indeed at grenfell but isn't the point you're slightly ducking the point with respect for ken there isn't the issue here that the video of

00:28:57 isn't the issue here that the video of the ruby fire it showed as you and dr glocklin agreed very rapid external fire development mindful of your concern that knowledge of various risks are communicated

00:29:08 of various risks are communicated building rising out of building construction techniques are communicated to fire and rescue authorities didn't it prompt you think well maybe ron dobson was on to something that there does need to be

00:29:19 there does need to be a more active positive encouragement to registered social landlords and others to check compliance of external walls with the relevant regulations it doesn't have to be latin or specific does it can

00:29:30 have to be latin or specific does it can that's no no no it doesn't it it it could have been i would only uh yes you're right it could have been i would argue of course that although ron dobson asked me to rise right to housing

00:29:41 asked me to rise right to housing authorities as you've seen in the responses it wasn't me to write to rousey housing authorities and it was via the director of housing which that happened but i if

00:29:52 of housing which that happened but i if if you're referring me back to the letter from terry alifat i confirm that was a that was an option that could have been taken as i've referred as i confirmed at the time and you could have prompted the director of

00:30:04 you could have prompted the director of housing to do something about it can you you could have said listen i've seen this far at ruby i think we need to look at what communications we give to housing providers social housing providers in high-rise buildings in this country yes i could and i didn't

00:30:19 and can you remember the reason why you didn't at the time i i think it was entirely because of that connectivity between what we'd seen elsewhere in uh external fast spread which was not

00:30:30 external fast spread which was not considered exceptional and that they didn't want to refer back to like and how i will again turn to la canal with an external cladding file which is what was shown in the french

00:30:41 which is what was shown in the french video

00:30:42 video now you're six months off retirement here if i'm sorry to put it so bluntly um

00:30:49 um given the developing knowledge ruby you had a very rapid external fire looking back now do you agree that whole building fires brought about by complex

00:31:00 building fires brought about by complex modern construction techniques including cladding systems was something that government and your unit and clg more broadly could have done more to prepare fire and rescue services for

00:31:12 prepare fire and rescue services for um

00:31:15 yes through as i said yesterday through the lens of the knowledge i now have i think you're right there is uh more information that could have been available at that time uh throughout

00:31:26 uh throughout the

00:31:27 the throughout the fire sector and

00:31:31 and if we can sort of look at what knowledge there was at the time i'd like to discuss with you concerns raised by the all-party parliamentary group now

00:31:42 now um

00:31:43 um am i right in understanding that the all party parliamentary group on fire safety had as one of its members of mr ronnie king

00:31:52 king that's correct now if we go to clg one travel zero four double five three we see an email chain dated the 8th of december 2010

00:32:05 december 2010 and we can see from the second email dan that brian nash is giving a wide group within dclg including you a report of the pre-inquest hearing at lachnal inquest can you help us who was

00:32:17 lachnal inquest can you help us who was brian nash and what position did he hold he was an official in the department dclg a policy official i don't recall exactly what his reference was

00:32:29 exactly what his reference was but he was probably a grade six officer i suspect now if we look at the penultimate bullet point on page one we can see that uh brian nash reported that ronnie king

00:32:40 brian nash reported that ronnie king had raised a question with the coroner about whether certain sprinkler evidence could be induced in the inquests which i think the coroner thought was premature at that stage and if we go to the top of page two

00:32:53 and if we go to the top of page two sorry the top of this pet sorry top page one

00:32:56 one that's my fault um

00:32:58 um you wrote the brian martin copying in a more limited number of addresses than the original email included and you said this i spoke to ronnie king

00:33:11 i spoke to ronnie king alias knight at the inquest despite your letter he feels that part b is still far from clear which new buildings are required to have sprinklers could you publish it in colouring book style with crayons

00:33:24 colouring book style with crayons now first of all why did you include the words

00:33:28 words alias knight after ronnie king's name ronnie king and i have known each other for many years he's an ex chief fire officer a colleague i've worked with for many years and i probably still know well

00:33:40 well so it was no no more than an internal conversation by email i was having with brian and

00:33:48 and both of those quips about coloring style four core indeed alias alias knight are probably self-evident in the fashion that i wrote it and i regret it being exposed in this way but

00:34:01 regret it being exposed in this way but it was no more than that well the clear impression from that final sentence is that you didn't take mr king or pertinently his concerns by adb seriously um

00:34:12 adb seriously um why was that because i didn't feel there was there was a significant um uh

00:34:20 um uh spring to sprinkler lead lobby not not

00:34:25 not not not just fire suppression but specifically sprinklers uh that was happening at that time in the and you referred to one of the trials in just just now and i didn't think it was unclear

00:34:38 and i didn't think it was unclear which which new buildings required to have fast suppression systems and were you also aware that the appg had raised concerns about the use of combustible materials and the lack of

00:34:50 combustible materials and the lack of adequate guidance on external fire spread i wasn't aware of that although i've become aware of it through this inquiry so you weren't aware of it during your time as the chief iron rescue advisor no i was aware of the sprinklers aspects

00:35:03 no i was aware of the sprinklers aspects not the external wall aspects taking the step back um the impression from the more limited distribution list of your email to brian martin

00:35:14 martin is that

00:35:15 is that clg was of a like mind with you that you didn't take ronnie king or his concerns seriously is that a fair assessment to the position um

00:35:25 um probably because of the trials that were conducted in the lobby that was emerging on behalf of the sprinkler industry to influence those these aspects

00:35:39 to influence those these aspects now can i move to a separate topic which is they really apply more to fire risk assessment and particularly the question of fire risk assessor competency

00:35:50 assessor competency under the 2005 order now before you were appointed the chief fire and rescue adviser in 2007 presumably you had little of any practical experience of undertaking fire

00:36:01 practical experience of undertaking fire risk assessments under the order i i had no personal experience under the order i was a fire safety officer much earlier than that in the previous legislation um

00:36:13 than that in the previous legislation um mindful of that mindful of your senior executive experience and various uh fire and rescue services in england and by 2007 had you yourself reached any view on the competency of the providers of

00:36:26 on the competency of the providers of commercial fire risk assessment in the industry um

00:36:33 no i hadn't but i understood the rationale

00:36:37 rationale that the not in the case of my own area of responsibility for enforcement and crown premises but the fire safety order was so broad in so many premises

00:36:48 in so many premises it was difficult to require competency of a significant level in all of those premises

00:36:56 premises and

00:36:57 and you'd recognize the rationale from what you say there you recognize at the time that there may well be issues or problems

00:37:05 problems uh being more direct with ensuring that there was a requisite level of competency on the part of fire risk assessors in the industry in the early days of the order's life particularly yes particularly for the

00:37:17 particularly yes particularly for the more complex buildings and was that a concern which you raised with people at the time as something weighing on your mind um i i didn't because we need to separate

00:37:29 i i didn't because we need to separate the role i had was an enforcing authority not the regulator the regulator was clearly the department and i was just one of a number of enforcing authorities happy for crown

00:37:41 enforcing authorities happy for crown premises just as a fire rescue authority would be an enforcing authority and the regulator was the person responsible for the order itself

00:37:52 the order itself cram premises there's quite a lot of them in england you had a substantial obligation uh in terms of enforcing compliance with the order and respect of those premises what had been your practical experience

00:38:04 what had been your practical experience of the competence of fire risk assessors in the early days of the life of the order

00:38:10 order well the predominant fire risking crown premises was remains prisons and that was the reason having consistency across the country with a single enforcing

00:38:21 the country with a single enforcing authority

00:38:22 authority um and so i had no difficulty about the competency of those fire risk assessors they were very well uh trained and and prepared as part of um

00:38:33 trained and and prepared as part of um her majesty's prison service and gave that service as competent risk assessors so i i didn't have that whole mixed picture of risk assessors that

00:38:42 that others might have had as enforcing authorities and so were your concerns about competency if i can put it like this analytical i.e you thinking through the implication of the order as opposed

00:38:53 the implication of the order as opposed to

00:38:54 to hearing concerns complaints on the ground or find your experience as the enforcer for crown premises yes i didn't i didn't hear those as the enforcer of crown promises thank you can we go back now to your report on the

00:39:06 can we go back now to your report on the latino house fire date of the 30th of july 2009 and we can find it at home quadruple zero one zero nine two forward slash one

00:39:18 now just to ensure um complete clarity as to what version this is the version that went to the coroner and if we go to page seven in this version

00:39:31 we can see

00:39:34 in the box entitled areas for consideration the text says this considerations should be given to undertaking a review of information available for available nationally for

00:39:45 available for available nationally for occupants of high-rise residential premises to ensure that there is a consistency of guidance in terms of what actions should be taken when a fire occurs within their building any review should be undertaken with

00:39:57 any review should be undertaken with uh key

00:39:59 uh key so we're just looking at yes with key the involvement of stakeholders um involving including the fire and rescue service housing associations landlords and tenants representatives

00:40:10 representatives now is it correct your recommendation instigated the work that culminated in the publication of the lga guide on purpose-built blocks of flats which was i think first published in july 2011.

00:40:22 i think first published in july 2011. yes it was thank you did you contribute in any way to the drafting of that lga guide no i i didn't but the team that was involved in in scrutinizing it included a member of

00:40:34 in scrutinizing it included a member of my team thank you now could we stay in this document but go to page 35.

00:40:45 now we can see at the bottom of this page the

00:40:51 the your report considered the 2005 order and you provided a useful overview of the legislation there and if we can turn over the page to page 36 and the foot of

00:41:02 over the page to page 36 and the foot of that page

00:41:05 that page uh you'd included a section entitled emerging issues and then and you said this there is a requirement under the fire safety order to appoint one or more competent persons to assist the

00:41:16 competent persons to assist the responsible person in undertaking the preventable and protective fire safety measures within premises however there is no similar requirement for a competent person to be appointed to

00:41:28 competent person to be appointed to assist in making a suitable and sufficient risk assessment it is important that assurance be given to both the responsible person for the premises and the enforcing authority

00:41:39 premises and the enforcing authority that a risk assessment has been undertaken by a competent person particularly in relation to high risk premises and if we go over the page to page 37

00:41:50 page 37 we can see at the head of page 37 you made this recommendation considerations should be given to conducting a review as to how the responsible person under the regulatory

00:42:02 responsible person under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 can be assured that their assessment of risk is suitable and sufficient particularly where the premises is of a higher risk this assurance is particularly important

00:42:15 this assurance is particularly important the responsible person may be relying on using someone else to undertake the risk assessment where appropriate the current fire safety order guidance should be amended accordingly

00:42:26 accordingly now

00:42:28 now asking the direct questions first why did you consider this particular point to be in an emerging issue arising out of latino

00:42:37 it it was apparent even in that short report that the uh the regulatory fire safety order applied the fso applied but the the fire risk assessment uh was inadequate

00:42:50 fire risk assessment uh was inadequate because it clearly hadn't recognized what was the major failing black and how and that was the failure in compartmentation and i consider that to be

00:43:00 be a high-risk premises a high-rise premises

00:43:03 premises where you would want the best competence to understand that risk assessment in that kind of premises now the answer may well be pregnant in the question but why was it particularly important for there to be assurance that

00:43:14 important for there to be assurance that a fire risk assessment had been undertaken by a competent person when it came to high-risk premises

00:43:23 i don't recall specifically talking

00:43:27 talking to the f well i didn't talk to the fire risk assessor or

00:43:31 or recall looking at the fire risk assessment but it was pretty apparent to me that it was inadequate by not recognizing the failures of the building and was it readily apparent to others in the sector

00:43:46 in the fire rescue service yes yes i think so i certainly was apparent for example by the investigation that london fire brigade took that that fire risk assessment

00:43:58 that that fire risk assessment would not have been appropriate to be show that building was safe in the circumstances could we go to a separate email chain

00:44:09 could we go to a separate email chain which can be found at home zero double one six double one

00:44:21 now this is an email from peter wise to you and peter wise was i think a fire safety engineer in your unit is that right that's correct and he sent this email to you as we can see on the 28th of july 2013 and 1829

00:44:34 of july 2013 and 1829 so a couple of days before the publication of your report

00:44:41 now in the first time mr wise wrote this sir i had a very full discussion with louise presumably louise upton that's correct about fso for our safety order

00:44:52 correct about fso for our safety order recommendation she made the following points

00:44:55 points now when he stated he had discussed the fso recommendation with her i'm assuming that is the recommendation which we've just been discussing that would be my assumption as well

00:45:08 peter wise then explained that miss upton had made the following points and it's really in the second line of this email

00:45:15 email she is uncomfortable that any recommendations about legislation be made at such an early stage i pointed out that these are emerging issues will be necessarily heavily

00:45:26 issues will be necessarily heavily caveated and that your report is independent now pausing there did you intend to make any recommendation concerning the order itself

00:45:36 itself no my my report was findings for others to take forward and this conversation would have been with louise upton in her role on behalf as i've

00:45:47 role on behalf as i've described earlier as the regulator rather than me as an enforcer but as a result of my findings and it was a prompt for others to consider that's correct

00:45:57 correct now mr wise continued in the next line down her view is that any review of the legislation would be unwelcome to review the fso and change the whole basis so that the responsible person has

00:46:09 basis so that the responsible person has to employ a competent person to carry out a risk assessment would question the whole we think rationale of the fso self-compliance regime

00:46:20 of the fso self-compliance regime even if it was only high-risk premises

00:46:27 now was that

00:46:31 a reservation with which you had any sympathy um

00:46:38 um no i i

00:46:39 no i i i don't recall i did and uh and i don't and put bluntly did you have in mind that article 9 of the order ought to be amended so that

00:46:51 amended so that it was expressly a duty on responsible persons to use a competent person to carry out the risk assessment i did

00:47:00 and was that did you have in mind that that obligation would be imposed in relation to all premises or just high-risk premises just high-risk premises whilst recognizing the complexity of

00:47:12 recognizing the complexity of that definition and getting to that point of understanding what that meant i suppose one of the consequences of that view is did you consider whether the regulation

00:47:25 did you consider whether the regulation of high risk premises ought to be different or treated differently in the order compared to other premises only in this respect

00:47:36 only in this respect of the competency of the person undertaking the fire risk assessment can you see what the competing advantages and disadvantages would be

00:47:47 advantages and disadvantages would be of treating high risk premises differently in the order um

00:47:54 um because of the spread of the order the very breadth of the order that is any premises there's more two or more occupancies the order is

00:48:06 the order is broad in the very smallest cottage that does bed and breakfast in one room to the most the highest risk and the sort of high-rise building we saw so it was difficult to

00:48:17 building we saw so it was difficult to get a

00:48:18 get a fits one-size-fits-all but for that reason i felt that it was important to try to separate the high-risk premises from the very potentially low-risk premises

00:48:29 potentially low-risk premises on the basis of risk just help me so kendall it

00:48:35 it strikes me that competence in the sense is all related to the nature of the building you're assessing isn't it

00:48:42 isn't it you could be competent to do the cottage that does bed and breakfast a small simple building that's assumed and not to be competent to tackle a high-rise residential blog

00:48:53 high-rise residential blog but in either case you would need to be competent for the job you're doing wouldn't you you're of course correct sir so this wasn't suggest you would need to be incompetent to do those other work but

00:49:04 incompetent to do those other work but there was a level of expertise and competency different for a high-rise building for example where you need might need to do an invasive fire risk assessment of what was going

00:49:15 fire risk assessment of what was going above the seat the full ceilings in the building or the amendments we made to the building would be very different to the the simple fire risk assessment that i talked about so again looking at the fourth paragraph

00:49:26 so again looking at the fourth paragraph mr wise wrote this policy have already proposed i can say get together with stakeholders to try and define what a third-party accreditation scheme would look like for

00:49:37 accreditation scheme would look like for risk assessors this would tidy up this area in that it would fit with the government-led agenda to industry-led assurance

00:49:44 assurance now did you read that to be mr wise's own observation or simply a report of miss upton's uh views or intentions come on can i just read that paragraph again was that the

00:49:56 read that paragraph again was that the fourth power yes the one which starts policy i've already proposed

00:50:08 that that by inference some implication is that policy meaning in this case louise upton but the regulator by definition

00:50:20 regulator by definition but did you take it to be mr wise's suggestion or miss upton's

00:50:27 it reads as if it's mr wise yes it does it does it does read as though it's uh peter wise's and uh

00:50:37 although that that that getting together with stakeholders would have been aimed at the policy group meeting with stakeholders rather than

00:50:48 rather than peter wise or myself as chief advisor of course now if we look at the next paragraph mr wise said this if the recommendation is to review the fsa

00:50:57 fsa we need to be aware of policy concerns if we are concerned about competence then policies present proposals may suffice which could be captured in the following recommendation a review should

00:51:09 following recommendation a review should be undertaken on how the responsible person under the fsa can satisfy themselves that the suitability and sufficiency of their risk assessments is adequate

00:51:20 their risk assessments is adequate particularly where the premises is of higher risk and falls outside the scope of the clg guidance documents aimed at low risk premises this is particularly important where they may rely on somewhat employing

00:51:32 they may rely on somewhat employing someone else to undertake risk assessment now did you read that passage of a record of what miss upton had said or is a unilateral proposal by mr wise i think

00:51:43 a unilateral proposal by mr wise i think that's the unilateral proposal by peter wise

00:51:46 wise would you agree that the mr wise's proposal is effectively identical in substance to the recommendation you'd made in your final report on latino i do

00:52:04 before you signed off your report did you discuss

00:52:09 discuss this subject with louise upton at all

00:52:14 i don't recall but i suspect i would have done as a as a policy colleague working in the same building in the same department would you say it was likely probable likely

00:52:26 likely did you discuss the topic with ministers at all before you finalized your own report no i didn't and would that be the normal course it would in this case because it was an

00:52:37 it would in this case because it was an independent report by me and i said right at the start i'd never felt better to give my advice a professional advice to either policy colleagues or ministers so this i felt

00:52:50 colleagues or ministers so this i felt was a technical matter that i could reasonably make a recommendation is it fair to say that you did not persist with your recommendation that the order should be reviewed and to the extent you recommended revised um

00:53:04 the extent you recommended revised um no i didn't persist because my review was completed for others to take forward the findings i suspect and that was solely my role in undertaking the review and

00:53:16 role in undertaking the review and you'll see the date of this email of course was right on the publication of the review

00:53:23 now

00:53:25 you obviously have a role as a chief fire and rescue advisor put bluntly you have achieving and lobbying function that if you feel something needs to be done then you can you have a direct access both to senior

00:53:37 you have a direct access both to senior officials and also to ministers now why did you not persist with the recommendation that article 9 be revised when it's clear that both you and mr

00:53:48 when it's clear that both you and mr wise

00:53:49 wise had

00:53:50 had concerns about the competence of fire risk assessors in the industry i think because i believe that i had done what was asked of me to produce that very early and short report but

00:54:03 that very early and short report but there was some quite meaty recommendations or findings in it and this was one of them and that was sufficient for others to take forward rather than for me in that role

00:54:15 rather than for me in that role so once it was off your desk it was job done from your perspective then no i've never i've always been passionate about fire safety and the safety of the public for the last 55 years so that was never

00:54:27 for the last 55 years so that was never been my motorcycle brandei and i had a continuing and do have a continued interest in public safety from fire

00:54:35 fire how did you practically implement that passion to ensure that officials and ministers were aware of your view that article 9 of the order

00:54:46 of your view that article 9 of the order ought to be amended i wasn't party to this paragraph discussions going on between what was then the regulator and senior officials or ministers so i i

00:54:58 and senior officials or ministers so i i wasn't par i wasn't part of those discussions so i don't know where or how that landed as not happening as a result of that recommendation you've used the phrase regulator

00:55:09 you've used the phrase regulator frequently here i'd understood you to be referring to the department is that right i am yes

00:55:19 wasn't there though i'm mindful of what you say but wasn't there a continuing obligation on you as the chief fire rescue adviser to make sure that this issue of competency remained at the forefront of

00:55:32 competency remained at the forefront of official and ministerial deliberation and in particular your view shared by mr wise that article 9 ought to be amended along the lines you suggested yes i i accept that and uh and with

00:55:44 accept that and uh and with with hindsight i think that more might have been done after the report to

00:55:51 report to chase through its um its findings and recommendations including this one and i regret now not doing that but i didn't see that as the role at the time were you put off by the fact that miss upton

00:56:02 you put off by the fact that miss upton was clearly not minded and i put that at its politest

00:56:07 politest not minded to entertain your review of the

00:56:10 the order and that you were having seen that you were put off pursuing the point any further i don't know i was put off but i was very

00:56:18 was very respectful of the policy roles of other colleagues with quite different roles to mine

00:56:24 mine and they would have considered the policy implications of making a change to the order which i may not have considered and the implications of for example defining what's high risk and what's other so it

00:56:35 what's high risk and what's other so it was more in recognition that uh others will be taking this forward in a policy role rather than my independent findings role

00:56:43 role now if we can look at a further email exchange hom trouble zero double one six one two

00:56:56 thank you and the first email at the bottom of the page is from you to peter wise uh mr bolton copied in and it's also dated the 28th of july 2013 in the

00:57:07 also dated the 28th of july 2013 in the center 1841 which i think is two minutes or so after the one we've just been looking at

00:57:14 um now it appears to be a response to peter's email peter wise's email is that right yes

00:57:21 yes and you say this peter i have reflected on louise's view that if a risk assessment is not suitable sufficient the regulator will say so now you'd had two minutes um

00:57:33 say so now you'd had two minutes um you couldn't possibly have reflected too hard on that or is it a point that she'd raised

00:57:38 raised far earlier

00:57:43 i think it was a conversation that we may have had earlier because i wouldn't have reflected in two minutes as you said so i expected a conversation that i had earlier i think i should say it's 2009 that the

00:57:55 i think i should say it's 2009 that the year of the i should say keep on saying 2013 so it's 2000. yes um and you go on to say um in the email however supposing the competent person believes they have

00:58:06 the competent person believes they have a suitable and sufficient risk assessment but it isn't in that event unless the fra visit and tell them why would they know in the meantime it could be people are potentially at risk there is an argument

00:58:19 potentially at risk there is an argument that the example is camberwell i presume you had in mind lacking all that correct where there is some evidence that a risk assessment was done by an environmental health officer this seems to support the argument

00:58:31 this seems to support the argument for

00:58:32 for assurance

00:58:33 assurance can

00:58:35 can what did you mean when you said there was an argument for assurance it refers to that third party accreditation for assurance that's uh referred to in in

00:58:46 assurance that's uh referred to in in that that email and so that for fire-risk assessors to have a third-party competence assurance by a independent body

00:58:57 independent body or bodies uh to give some comfort the to the responsible person that they were employing a competent assessor now at this stage did you still um hold

00:59:08 now at this stage did you still um hold the view presumably you did that the order and article nine required amendment

00:59:15 amendment yes i hadn't changed my view on my my recommendations how how that was achieved as i said was a matter for policy to decide how best to achieve that recommendation or the outcome of

00:59:26 that recommendation or the outcome of the recommendation can we look at the peter wise's response where he said this i agree if there's third party accredited i think he's trying to say their scheme

00:59:38 think he's trying to say their scheme which is well-versed based on agreed principles and backed by clg sifoa etc i believe we could achieve this even if we changed the fso to include competent risk assessors we would still be left

00:59:50 risk assessors we would still be left with the question of what is competent the present definition is only any use to lawyers either we try and go the whole hog and tightly defined competence in law code of practice etc or we go to the

01:00:02 of practice etc or we go to the accreditation route this would require a significant effort but one which it appears stakeholders are very interested in taking

01:00:09 in taking do you know what prof everton thinks upon this

01:00:13 upon this i believe that the corgi scheme started as such now first of all who was professor everton professor uh rosemary everton it was a

01:00:24 professor uh rosemary everton it was a is it was a particularly renowned expert in the fire safety order from its exception through was the person to go to for

01:00:34 to for advice and clarification in the widest fire industry and did you take up mr wise's advice and ask her guidance i don't recall i took this particular point but i frequently spoke

01:00:45 particular point but i frequently spoke to rosemary everton as a very professional and trusted individual who give very straight advice did you look at how the corgi scheme operated and whether that could be

01:00:57 operated and whether that could be translated in whole or in part to the world of far risk assessment no no i didn't of course i was aware of what was then the corgi scheme which changed after that but the i was aware of the corgi scheme and and the principles of

01:01:09 corgi scheme and and the principles of assuring someone how they could get that assurance it was based around that package of third-party accreditation uh that the person doing the work whether it was in the case of corgi for a gas

01:01:20 it was in the case of corgi for a gas spoiler or whether it was a fire risk i said it had some kind of third party assurance that it seemed to have some some merit to it and so did you consider the benefits of

01:01:31 and so did you consider the benefits of an accreditation scheme more broadly yes

01:01:35 yes and what did that consideration involved did you hold meetings devoted to the subject or was it a matter which was uh for your consideration only that you contemplated no no no there were

01:01:46 contemplated no no no there were discussions there were probably informal meetings but there were discussions that resulted in third-party accreditation such as the fire risk assessors competence scheme the frac scheme

01:01:57 the frac scheme and other schemes giving third party accreditation or fire risk assessors um could we turn to the next document please which is at clg quadruple 0-2720

01:02:17 and we can see in the hand column on the first page that this is a submission from you

01:02:23 from you to the then secretary of state mr denham and further down the right hand column the date is the 29th of july 2009 so the day before your report was published

01:02:35 day before your report was published you were due to meet the secretary of state the following day so on the 30th of july to discuss the contents of your report is that right i'm sure it is i don't recall that or

01:02:47 i'm sure it is i don't recall that or the meeting but i'm i'm sure it took place if it was supposed to take place i'm assuming that this uh submission was sent with your report to the secretary of state is that a fair assumption to make yes that's correct and copied to

01:02:59 make yes that's correct and copied to other ministers and

01:03:02 and did the report you provided to the secretary of state contain the same recommendations that we've been considering i to consider uh competency i'm confident it didn't did but but i

01:03:14 did but but i haven't i can't recall if it was it was the same but i see no reason why it should have been the same now turning to the top of page two of that document

01:03:24 uh your submission said this but also note that due to time constraints this report has not yet been reviewed by policy colleagues and they will wish to

01:03:35 colleagues and they will wish to consider its implications and make comment um who were the policy colleagues you had in mind here well some some of those colleagues would have been those in in in housing uh others would have been in

01:03:47 in housing uh others would have been in fire safety order policies such as uh louise

01:03:51 louise because this was an independent report that was time constrained by the secretary of state for him to have a report back this was not a long report that would reach all those policy considerations uh and so this was into

01:04:04 considerations uh and so this was into the department of all those aspects that needed to consider their outcomes and findings was it right that none of that team so the policy team had previously seen a draft of your report

01:04:17 we might have had no i don't recall that we may have had discussions on the general direction of the findings but not the outcome of the report as far as i can remember would they have seen drafts or extracts of the drafts of your

01:04:28 drafts or extracts of the drafts of your report

01:04:29 report i don't recall i doubt it

01:04:40 it would be or would it be fair to say that policy officials had through these various discussions had some form of uh contribution or to use that hideous phrase input into

01:04:52 phrase input into your report yes certainly and i would expect them to have done rather than just land on them from the secretary of state as to what uh my recommendations meant for policy

01:05:03 uh my recommendations meant for policy did you tell the secretary of state the extent to which your advice had been informed or shaped or influenced by at least the preliminary views of officials

01:05:13 officials no and i don't think it was over influenced or influenced to the extent that it changed my independent view

01:05:21 view now when you were writing your final report into the latino fire were you aware of a clg report that had been published a few months earlier in march 2009 called initial evaluation of

01:05:33 march 2009 called initial evaluation of the effectiveness of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005. um

01:05:39 um i don't recall that but if if if you wanted to remind me of it i might remember but i don't recall that now well if we can go to its hom

01:05:50 well if we can go to its hom quadruple zero zero three zero two

01:06:04 does that ring any bells yes yes it does yes i i think this was a routine uh update of the

01:06:12 the fire safety order having been in place for

01:06:15 for however many years since it's um inception in 2006 have been three years correct entry into fours now can you remember did you or your unit contribute to the contents of that

01:06:27 unit contribute to the contents of that no evaluation thank you no

01:06:30 no now if we can go to page 43 in this document

01:06:39 we can see there section 3.9 is entitled fra views of third-party safety consultants and fra fire rescue authority and if we go to the bottom of this page the final

01:06:50 the bottom of this page the final paragraph says this some fras described concerns they felt over the work of third party consultants or other commercial fire safety organizations the central problem they raised was the

01:07:03 the central problem they raised was the variability in the perceived level of competence among these consultants now what were those concerns something about which you were aware in or about march 2009

01:07:15 march 2009 uh no i wasn't and uh in my enforcement area i didn't have that that same concern or problem if we can go to page 46

01:07:29 and if we look at the second paragraph it reads this while the fire rescue authorities recognize and welcome the existence and development of registers of quality assured fire safety services

01:07:41 assured fire safety services several said that a national scheme of accreditation or licensing would be helpful and preferable were you aware of that view

01:07:52 yes i was aware of the general view that view certainly yes had you been made aware separately therefore that there was support amongst fire and rescue authorities for uh this national

01:08:03 rescue authorities for uh this national accreditation scheme or licensing uh

01:08:08 uh i don't recall con discussing a national national accreditation scheme in that way but the underlying principles of having some assurance about

01:08:20 having some assurance about competency is where this is from i do now if we can go to the bottom of page 46 and under paragraph 3.10 which is headed areas for further support or improvement

01:08:31 support or improvement the final bullet point on this page says this

01:08:35 this the desire for better regulation or accreditation of third-party fire safety companies and if we go over the page to the top of 47

01:08:45 we see the chapter heading responsible persons experience and perceptions

01:08:52 and that goes on to deal with those various matters um presumably you read the initial evaluation yes in light of what you'd learned there

01:09:03 in light of what you'd learned there did you see fit to advise any ministers about the development of a national accreditation scheme bearing in mind the concerns that have been reported in this document

01:09:14 document no i didn't did it cross your mind to do so no it didn't uh partly because that wasn't a remit in my remittan role which was uh outward facing to the fire rescue

01:09:27 was uh outward facing to the fire rescue services

01:09:29 services had the concerns that you'd read in this report of march 2009 informed or in any way shaped the views that we've just been considering in your final report on

01:09:40 considering in your final report on lachnal

01:09:41 lachnal about the need to amend the fire safety order and in particular article 9. i don't recall that link but i suspect it was a link in my mind to uh build on

01:09:53 it was a link in my mind to uh build on what this overview of three years into the fire safety order was finding but i don't recall that link in this way had i done so i would have made that link in the lech now house

01:10:04 made that link in the lech now house report myself can you help us as to why the contents of this initial evaluation of the order had not uh weighed more heavily in your

01:10:17 had not uh weighed more heavily in your mind to encourage you to persevere with your recommendation that article 9 ought to be revised no i i don't and i don't recall what the outcome of this this review was in terms

01:10:29 outcome of this this review was in terms of the policy changes that were being considered

01:10:41 just going back a step and look at going back to your final report where you recommended that consideration be given to conducting review

01:10:51 review as to how a responsible person can be assured that the risk assessment is suitable and sufficient who did you have in mind carrying out that review would it be policy officials in the department or someone from

01:11:02 in the department or someone from outside the department i i didn't have any any one personal body in mind either it would have been quite natural for either the

01:11:13 have been quite natural for either the policy to lead on it the policy colleagues or indeed and outsource that review on that specific subject if they wish to do so thank you

01:11:23 thank you um sir it is 11 minutes past 11 probably four minutes of normal however given where we've got to in the plan it's probably best to take the break now than for me to sail on for four minutes and then break halfway

01:11:34 then break halfway right well we can take a break at that point

01:11:37 point are you getting on just for our information um i have about 15 more pages of the plan to go so i would have thought about 90 minutes right

01:11:48 right well

01:11:49 well again we're going to have a break at this point i'm going to say we'll come back at 25 past 11. um

01:11:56 um when council says he's got 90 minutes um i sometimes add a little bit for overruns so we'll see how we get on but it looks as though you might hope to be through by lunch anyway we'll see would you give the

01:12:07 anyway we'll see would you give the usher please remember not to talk to your to anyone about your evidence

01:12:18 thank you 25 faster thanks

01:26:54 would you ask again to come back in please

01:27:06 thank you so much all right so ken ready to carry on i am thank you good thank you yes mrs kennedy thank you um so ken just following up on the matters we've been discussing earlier on this morning number of instances you've said that you

01:27:18 number of instances you've said that you completed your report into latino and then handed it over to policy colleagues and

01:27:23 and that was that it raises the question as to what you perceived the role of the chief fire and rescue adviser to be because if the role is not

01:27:36 because if the role is not for want of a better phrase to keep policy officials feet to the fire on things that you consider to be important what is the point of the role um

01:27:46 um i certainly don't think it was the role of a very new role of course for the chief fire and risk advisor to keep policy officials feet to the fire who each one of them had an expertise in their own area and were

01:27:58 their own area and were equivalent in civil service uh rank uh but it was to create the uh liaison point between the government department responsible for fire policy

01:28:10 responsible for fire policy and the

01:28:12 and the and the uh and the department itself so it was that point in between i think it was a murder in a merging role uh i think it was a role that needed to be

01:28:23 think it was a role that needed to be revisited which was revisited because i think the inspector was needed has moved to that localized localism approach and sector-led approach on peer review

01:28:34 and sector-led approach on peer review so i don't think it fulfilled all of those

01:28:37 those aspirations you suggest even though i would argue it probably should have it was a new role as you say and you were the

01:28:45 were the uh

01:28:46 uh the first post holder and you could have made of it what you wanted to in many respects

01:28:52 respects looking back now do you feel you could and should have taken a more positive active role in ensuring that policy officials

01:29:01 officials were fully aware of and mindful of things like your recommendation that article 9 should be amended to ensure competent fire risk successes for high-risk buildings yes i do

01:29:12 yes i do i don't think i was shy in coming forward however and having some

01:29:16 some very open and robust conversations with policy officials but in the light of this uh evidence and inquiry i think your role you're correct

01:29:27 inquiry i think your role you're correct in the role could have been more robust in that aspect in a number of answers in evidence this morning you described the department as regulator

01:29:38 regulator now one of the themes that emerges out of the evidence is the the policy objective of withdrawing the department from maybe an active regulatory role

01:29:49 maybe an active regulatory role when you describe the department as a regulator what did you understand its functions to be at the time you were held the cfra post yes i i understood it to be a regulator

01:30:02 yes i i understood it to be a regulator in terms of the order and indeed the housing act as the responsible department holding the responsibility for the the act itself and the order itself

01:30:15 act itself and the order itself amendments and guidance statutory guidance that could be issued under that order could only be made by the department which was quite a separation from the enforcing authorities who are

01:30:26 from the enforcing authorities who are enforcing not regulating so you saw them more as custodians of the relevant legislation rather than the traditional regulator which has the enforcement element has been one of its defining

01:30:37 element has been one of its defining constituent roles that's a good clarification and absolutely yes not a regulator but the the the holder of the of the legislation and the advice to enforcement

01:30:48 and the advice to enforcement authorities now if we can look at the work that was done following your report into lagnal and if we can go to h o m uh quadruple zero zero six one two

01:31:02 we can see that after the report was published louise upton drafted advice in september 2009 to sandy bishop who is the deputy director of fire policy in 2009 and shona dunn

01:31:15 of fire policy in 2009 and shona dunn who's the director of the fire safety policy team also at the time

01:31:20 the time and the subject matter was this is set out there competency of fire risk assessors and we can see that you are copied in you're the first list identified on the list

01:31:31 identified on the list now

01:31:32 now if we can go to page two

01:31:36 and you see at the the bottom of that page there's a heading consideration and ms upton wrote this to date ministers have confirmed the government has no plans to establish an accredited

01:31:48 has no plans to establish an accredited quality assurance scheme for those involved in the provision of fire risk assessments and other fire safety services

01:31:55 services a number of professional qualifications exist in this area and we and ministers have taken the view that the development of a nationally recognized scheme is best

01:32:04 best considered and delivered by the fire safety industry itself government has neither the expertise nor the resources available to implement and manage such a scheme

01:32:15 manage such a scheme however as the level of concern over this issue became apparent ministers indicated that they would be willing for officials to discuss with interested parties the concept of a nationally recognised accreditation scheme for fire

01:32:27 recognised accreditation scheme for fire risk assessors this led to some informal discussions with industry players which indicated that there may be an appropriate leadership role for government in facilitating an exploratory discussion

01:32:38 facilitating an exploratory discussion with the interested parties around expectations for any such scheme our stated aim has been to get a number of interested organizations around the table before the end of 2009

01:32:49 table before the end of 2009 now were you involved in advising ministers on whether there should be a nationally recognized scheme whether by overseen by government or the industry only via my report to the to the

01:33:02 only via my report to the to the secretary of state and you profit no advice thereafter no are you aware that on the 14th of december 2009 the fire risk assessor competency council was set up i am

01:33:14 competency council was set up i am were you involved in advising those who sat on the fire risk assessor no i wasn't

01:33:20 wasn't were you otherwise involved in discussions um about setting up a nationally recognized scheme whether those discussions were formal or otherwise no i wasn't involved in those discussions

01:33:31 discussions did you seek to involve yourself in those discussions at any stage no i was aware that it was taking place and the policy colleagues were leading on the work for the department

01:33:44 would it be fair therefore to say that you took a passive role in this that if someone sought your advice you'd give it but they didn't so you didn't um

01:33:53 um i was certainly an interested party but i wouldn't actually describe it as passive but i wasn't actively involved in the work taking place with the company council certainly so you were somewhere between passive and not active

01:34:04 somewhere between passive and not active that's fine yes now if we can look at the summary of the meeting that was held on the 14th december 2009 that can be found at hom quadruple zero three eight one seven

01:34:21 and if we can look at the foot of page one we can see that an email was sent by louise upton to jane boyce that's j-a-y-n-e boys who is clg's in-house

01:34:32 j-a-y-n-e boys who is clg's in-house policy consultant leading the review and it was entitled qa so quality assurance for risk assessors note of meeting of the 14th of december

01:34:43 the 14th of december now if we look at the top of page 1

01:34:49 we can see that peter wise forwarded this email to you amongst others and he said this for your information

01:35:00 for your information so far this has been a well-run and productive process i think you mean to say jane boyes is the consultant pulling this together i feel that this is a good start to satisfying the emergency the merging

01:35:12 satisfying the emergency the merging issue

01:35:13 issue from the latino house report on the quality of risk assessors do you know why he would have forwarded you this note

01:35:23 um why peter would have yes well is he keeping you in the loop he's keeping me in the loop and and i suspect he was involved in that group and all of those uh all of those seats copied into this and

01:35:35 all of those seats copied into this and twos

01:35:36 twos are the entirety of my team and

01:35:40 and would you have read the email says to keep a weather eye on developments yes do you recall being given any update or report or courtesy briefing about the progress of your

01:35:52 briefing about the progress of your recommendation in respect of quality assuring fire risk assessors um in in the

01:35:59 the many um most of informal conversations with peter wise who as i said was the fire engineer uh looking after those matters and indeed led on my lack of house review now if we can go back to the bottom of

01:36:11 now if we can go back to the bottom of this page

01:36:15 um we see there the second bullet point that says this government had no plans to require responsible persons to use third-party risk assessors the work was in response to business aspirations to

01:36:27 in response to business aspirations to know where if necessary to go for appropriate help with their responsibilities under the fso neither did we have plans to require all risk assessors to be quality assured experience suggested much could be

01:36:39 experience suggested much could be achieved with a voluntary approach did you agree with that statement

01:36:46 if the sector could step up to that approach as a sector-led approach i would i i would hope and i do agree it would meet the objectives

01:36:58 meet the objectives is the key word in that answer if yes

01:37:03 yes what

01:37:04 what assurance for one of the better phrase did you have that the industry would or was likely to step up i i didn't have any assurance but the groups that were listed in the

01:37:16 groups that were listed in the second paragraph were exactly the groups that i would expect that jane boyes would have consulted with who could deliver that sick sex-led approach

01:37:27 could deliver that sick sex-led approach were you

01:37:28 were you i don't want to put words on you in your mouth but in the spectrum of pessimism and optimism where did you lie on that spectrum about the prospect i was optimistic actually that the sector would want to take it forward for the benefit of the professional industry of

01:37:41 benefit of the professional industry of far risk assessors because it would endure the benefit of all

01:37:45 all yes

01:37:46 yes can we stay in this document go to page three

01:37:52 and if we can look halfway down the page we can see the agreed points which are in bold

01:37:59 in bold were as follows the meeting agreed to work together two one consider an overarching set of criteria against which to assess competency of risk assessors under which

01:38:10 competency of risk assessors under which all existing schemes could sit two

01:38:13 two ucas that's ukas accreditation would be the basis of the scheme

01:38:19 scheme whilst the emphasis would need to be on individual professional skills the professional must not exclude company schemes slash interests four buy-in across the industry was

01:38:30 four buy-in across the industry was essential

01:38:32 essential five the needs of responsible persons at the heart of the scheme easy to access six to maintain the momentum what was your assessment about the

01:38:43 what was your assessment about the merits of that proposal

01:38:46 i don't recall the detail of this but in the

01:38:50 the benefit of reading it now it seems that that's

01:38:53 that's a reasonable objective did you have any particular view on the benefits or disadvantages of ucas accreditation being the basis of

01:39:04 of ucas accreditation being the basis of the scheme um

01:39:06 um i think it had significant benefit at that time as an independent third party oversight of an accreditation scheme as with other models of accreditation

01:39:17 models of accreditation we know that the work resulted in the competency criteria for fire risk assessors being produced and published on the 21st of december 2011. um were you involved in that work

01:39:29 2011. um were you involved in that work in any way no i wasn't was anyone from your unit that you can remember

01:39:34 remember if they were it would have been peter wise who led throughout on this issue but you can't be certain of that i can't be certain thank you um can we now move on in time to events in 2010

01:39:46 to events in 2010 now if we can go to h o m quadruple zero three double eight three

01:39:58 we can see here that you gave a speech at a westminster briefing which was entitled prevention over cure improving fire safety in local communities

01:40:09 communities can you remember now who attended this speech of yours

01:40:16 i don't actually obviously know the speakers i don't remember the

01:40:23 the the attendees i have to say don't worry can we go and look at the details of the speech and particularly look at page nine and the second paragraph down

01:40:34 and you see there this

01:40:36 this i am pleased to report that clg has since the autumn been working with the fire safety trade organizations and fire safety professionals to explore the scope for

01:40:47 professionals to explore the scope for the fire safety industry itself to develop a nationally recognized quality assurance scheme for commercial fire risk assessors what were you referring to when you said that the nationally recognized quality

01:40:59 that the nationally recognized quality assurance scheme for commercial fire risk assessors that was the work that was referred to in the earlier correspondence of the groups that were meeting to uh

01:41:10 groups that were meeting to uh to to produce such a scheme which was sector led now the rest of this paragraph says this i understand that there has been a high level of commitment to this project by the industry and professionals and

01:41:21 the industry and professionals and despite the inherent challenges that exist the development of a draft competency standard for consultation with the full range of interested parties has progressed well are you referring there to the

01:41:33 are you referring there to the competency criteria or was the intention at the time to implement a full-blown quality assurance scheme the competitive criteria can we next go to hom quadruple zero

01:41:48 can we next go to hom quadruple zero zero double eight four

01:41:54 this is another submission two ministers prepared by louise upton sent to bob mcneil who was then the fire minister

01:42:04 minister and it's dated as you can see july 2010 if we can go to page three of this document

01:42:15 we can see that you're copied in your fourth one down

01:42:20 now if we go back to page one

01:42:24 paragraph two of the summary says this the submission seeks confirmation that you i the minister are content with our current approach of encouraging the sector itself to address

01:42:35 encouraging the sector itself to address business concerns that some form of quality assurance for commercial risk assessors would be helpful and that the sector itself is best placed to affect business confidence and improved fire

01:42:46 business confidence and improved fire safety outcomes now did you agree at the time that quality assurance for commercial risk assessors would be helpful and pertinently that the sector was best placed to provide that assurance

01:43:00 placed to provide that assurance yes i did

01:43:04 submission continues businesses are unlikely to welcome the burden of further regulation in this area and any requirement in this area would undermine the fundamental principle of the regulatory reform fire

01:43:15 principle of the regulatory reform fire safety order which is to allow those best place to understand the risks to manage them down to an appropriate level as they see fit did you agree with that statement

01:43:26 statement yes because it was the nature of the fire safety order itself that was built on the principles of the health and safety of work act

01:43:36 is it fair to say though that the fire safe the fire sector i should say had itself been calling for some time before this submission for more substantial regulation

01:43:48 more substantial regulation that it perhaps may not be wholly accurate to say that businesses are unlikely to welcome the burden of further regulation

01:44:00 i think there's two businesses that you refer to here i think the fire sector that we're looking for greater assurance for from far about forest assessors the burden being referred to

01:44:12 assessors the burden being referred to here i suspect and suggest but didn't draft this would have been the general burden imposed on business that was required to have fire risk assessments undertaken

01:44:25 which they'd have to do anyway under the order of course can we turn to a separate topic which is the tall and timber framed buildings report which i don't know whether you remember which was published in december

01:44:37 remember which was published in december 2010

01:44:39 2010 now that report was published by the london assembly's planning and housing committee

01:44:46 and if we can go to it it's inq trouble zero one four seven double one

01:44:57 do you remember this report at all ken

01:45:00 i don't remember it i i remember the topic uh reasonably well but i don't remember this this actual report we don't need to go to it but you're copied into a briefing note from louise

01:45:11 copied into a briefing note from louise upton on which was dated the 29th of march 2011 about the report and the government's response now

01:45:20 now staying with the report can we go to page

01:45:26 to page 34.

01:45:33 so i just want to check something

01:45:45 sorry it's my mistake can we go to page 35 just over the page we see recommendation 7 just below the midway point and it said this by 2012 dclg in association with

01:45:58 by 2012 dclg in association with relevant bodies such as the local authorities coordinators of regulatory services lake halls and chief fire officers association should draw up national guidance to

01:46:09 should draw up national guidance to ensure mandatory minimum standards of competence for training and accrediting fire risk assessors now do you remember that particular recommendation um

01:46:20 um no i don't of course it was a recommendation made by the london well it was about the london assembly presumably the recommendation so but i don't remember that recommendation being made to government i assume

01:46:33 being made to government i assume but it

01:46:34 but it fairly clear that it's um another call to introduce mandatory minimum standards of competence and far risk assessors isn't it it is

01:46:43 do you remember providing any advice on the merits or disadvantages of that particular recommendation either to officials or to ministers no that wouldn't wouldn't have come into the my

01:46:54 wouldn't wouldn't have come into the my arena i'm fairly certain it would have been addressed directly in those dealing with this policy area so even though it echoed

01:47:05 so even though it echoed your concerns that were set out in your report of the 30th of july 2009 nonetheless the subject matter would have been outside your area um

01:47:16 have been outside your area um because this would have been addressed into the policy area of dclg that was responsible for this policy yes

01:47:26 did you agree or was it your view at the time

01:47:30 time and this was put before you in march 2011 so a few months after it's first published that dclg should draw up national guidance to ensure mandatory national minimum standards of competence for training and accrediting fire risk

01:47:42 for training and accrediting fire risk assessors well i i can't recall where we were by that point with the sector-led approach which i i felt was moving well from the reports i had from my colleague peter wise and would have

01:47:55 my colleague peter wise and would have been the way to um over to reach the um intentions in my earlier reviews so i don't i don't recall where the sector-led approach fell between this

01:48:08 sector-led approach fell between this and the other report you mentioned let's see if i can help you on that and before we go to the government's response to the um

01:48:16 the um this report can we go to another ministerial submission that was lodged by louise upton with bob neal

01:48:24 bob neal which can be found at hom quadruple zero one double zero three

01:48:35 there we go 7th of february 2011 update on the work of the fire risk assessment competency council and if we can turn to page four

01:48:46 and if we can turn to page four and we can see at the top three lines down you copied into the submission if we go back to page one

01:48:55 we see its title if we go to page two and paragraph eight under the heading consideration uh miss upton said this at present there are a number of

01:49:07 at present there are a number of professional fire safety certification registration schemes all working to different standards and procedures as a result both we and responsible persons are uncertain about who holds an appropriate level of

01:49:19 who holds an appropriate level of competence in this field if in the light of findings of the fsa evaluation and sir ken knight's report into issues arising from the latter house fire we were to consider whether dclg could

01:49:31 we were to consider whether dclg could support responsible persons to access one or more schemes over any others that may exist

01:49:37 may exist we would need an understanding of both the standard of competency being achieved and evidence that it was being met

01:49:44 met the united kingdom accreditation service ucas is the uk body authorized by government through a memorandum of understanding with beers bis to credit certification

01:49:56 beers bis to credit certification registration bodies and is an obvious vehicle through which the government could evidence-base any future decisions it wished to make on this did you agree with that particular advice

01:50:07 advice yes

01:50:09 yes were your views sought by ministers or officials on that particular point no but it reflected my views from the earlier reports now staying on this page but moving to

01:50:20 now staying on this page but moving to paragraph 10 the submission said this however the next hurdle for the fra cc so that's the competency council may be to reach agreement among all the

01:50:31 may be to reach agreement among all the certification registration schemes that ucas accreditation should be the basis by which they demonstrate that their schemes are properly managed and run business representative organizations eg

01:50:43 business representative organizations eg the federation of small business and the cbi

01:50:46 cbi encourage those who want to appoint competent third parties in any field to use those who have been registered certified by scheme which has been accredited by ucas it offers confidence to those who choose

01:50:58 it offers confidence to those who choose to employ a ucas credited certified registered service that a

01:51:03 that a an appropriate standard of competence has been reached and b that the scheme offering such an assessment has been properly run now at the time

01:51:14 now at the time did you agree that it was necessary for the schemes to have ucas accreditation to give the necessary confidence about competence of far risk assessors that was certainly

01:51:26 that was certainly my preferred route because that was the body to go to to meet those outstanding expectations of competence and assurance to the end user

01:51:37 to the end user was a factor in that view that if there were going to be no mandatory national minimum standards it was the next best thing i don't think it was the next best thing

01:51:48 i don't think it was the next best thing but it was equivalent to to give confidence that you could have um quality assured far-risk assessors so it's an alternative rather than a second best

01:51:59 best the submission then goes on at paragraph 11 we propose to offer continued support and potential barrier busting resource to the sector to effectively resolve any concerns that the existing certification

01:52:12 concerns that the existing certification bodies including the professional institutions may have over apply for ucas accreditation and develop consensus as the future basis of any scheme or schemes

01:52:23 schemes and then paragraph 12 without our continued engagement there is a risk that the sector which remains relatively fragile would stall on its own work to develop one or more national registers of competent risk assessors

01:52:36 registers of competent risk assessors this would perpetuate the difficulty responsible persons already face in identifying with any degree of confidence the competency of those offering risk assessor services and may

01:52:47 offering risk assessor services and may lead to accusations from the business sector that the government has not done enough to ensure that responsible persons are readily able to identify suitable support to deliver a sufficient

01:52:58 suitable support to deliver a sufficient level of fire safety on their premises in addition having initially facilitated bringing the sector together to lead this work

01:53:06 this work the fraccc may perceive any scaling back of dclg engagement as withdrawal of support to the sector in professionalising the risk assessor market

01:53:19 assessor market did you agree at the time that the sector needed government support to prevent its stalling on work to develop a national register i wasn't aware that it did but that

01:53:30 i wasn't aware that it did but that would have been concerned because that would also limit the capacity that was available of fire risk assessors to undertake the work required now if we can now turn to the reply that

01:53:41 now if we can now turn to the reply that the government gave to the tall and timber frame buildings report um it was sent in the name of sandy bishop who we discussed earlier in early 2011.

01:53:52 in early 2011. now we can find that at hom [Music]

01:53:55 [Music] trouble zero one eight one six seven

01:54:01 do you remember seeing that document either before or after it was sent

01:54:07 no i don't um

01:54:09 um no i don't i don't know who it's addressed to either let's if we can go briefly to hom trouble zero four six zero two nine

01:54:24 now we can see that this is a briefing note i touched on it earlier dated the 29th of march 2011.

01:54:34 and if we go to page three

01:54:38 we can see you're the first on the list of uh

01:54:43 uh persons to whom it was circulated so it seems that you would have been provided with also the briefing and the response do you remember it at all i don't remember it but i'm sure i was and

01:54:54 don't remember it but i'm sure i was and if i was if i was um provided with this i would have read it and that was your normal

01:55:00 normal sorry that was your normal course it was yes absolutely so if we go to page two

01:55:06 if we look at the second paragraph

01:55:17 is the recommendation so i just want to double check something so we can get page uh so we can go to hom double zero treble zero one eight

01:55:28 hom double zero treble zero one eight one six seven

01:55:32 if we look at page two and we look at the second paragraph we see in italics is the recommendation from the tall and timber frame buildings report and responses below that

01:55:44 report and responses below that now the words in italics are the recommendation which said the fire risk assessment process must be improved by ensuring the people conducting them are properly qualified for the task we call on the clg

01:55:57 for the task we call on the clg to draw up mandatory minimum standards of competence for training and accrediting all assessors and the response is in text below and said this

01:56:08 text below and said this we have no plans to introduce a mandatory minimum standard of competence for training and the to sing fire risk assessors but we very much welcome the fire sector's decision to lead the work to develop and agree

01:56:20 to lead the work to develop and agree criteria against which to assess the competency of those offering risk assessment services we will continue to support the work of the fire risk assessment competency council and expect the outcome of his

01:56:31 council and expect the outcome of his work to be one or more registers of competent risk assessors whose certification process has been independently quality assured this will offer those with responsibilities under the regulatory

01:56:42 responsibilities under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 greater confidence in identifying those with an appropriate level of competency to help them comply with the legislation did you advise

01:56:54 did you advise ministers on the substance of that response no i didn't

01:57:00 are you able to help us as to why the industry's called to introduce mandatory minimum standards of competence were rejected

01:57:08 rejected can you add anything i can't nothing more to whatever no i can't

01:57:17 would you agree that it was clear that by introducing a non-mandatory set of standards

01:57:23 standards the continuing problem of inadequate virus assessments would persist

01:57:32 no i don't i think had a satisfactory scheme worth have saturated game in place it needn't be mandatory if the sector itself were able to produce such

01:57:44 sector itself were able to produce such a scheme

01:57:45 a scheme and then those that will be self-defining by by those new competent fire risk assessor that had a greater need for competency thank you now can we turn to the latino

01:57:56 thank you now can we turn to the latino housing quest themselves and by the time they started um you'd stood down yes in january 2013 and peter holland had succeeded you in post that's

01:58:07 holland had succeeded you in post that's correct

01:58:08 correct uh but nonetheless you all you continue to be involved in the inquest is that right

01:58:13 right um

01:58:16 um to a very limited degree because very shortly after my leaving my role i'd been appointed to undertake a review of the efficiencies and effectiveness of the fire rescue

01:58:27 effectiveness of the fire rescue services in england did you have formal interested party status or not no were you aware of the rule 43 letters that had been sent by the coroner to

01:58:38 that had been sent by the coroner to some of the interested parties at the end of the inquests uh i'm aware of them now i wasn't aware of them at the time could we look at the letter that was sent by the coroner to the fire

01:58:49 sent by the coroner to the fire sector

01:58:50 sector federation and that letter was dated the third of march 2013. we can find that at hom quadruple zero four three five six

01:59:04 i take it from your previous answer that you did not see this at the time no did you only see it when you came to prepare

01:59:10 prepare for giving evidence the inquiry

01:59:13 uh yes i think i've read that in the in the bundle of papers and it's it's certainly dated well into the point where i was uh into and almost beyond my next review

01:59:25 uh into and almost beyond my next review now did you agree that the federation could assist in shaping national policy about the scope of fire risk assessments and offer guidance on how assessment should be carried out

01:59:36 should be carried out yes they're a broadly based body consisting of a range of other professional bodies and had a good deal of expertise within that federation flowing from that did you think the

01:59:47 flowing from that did you think the federation was in a position to provide further guidance on the training of fire risk assessors um

01:59:58 i i i'm not sure whether that was in there i'm coming i'm not asking for your views on what's in the letter i was asking you um did you think that the fsf was in a position to provide further guidance on the training of fire risk

02:00:09 guidance on the training of fire risk assessors through its individual membership it could of those bodies but any one of those bodies might have done that for example the institution of our engineers who were who were members of the faucet federation you had no reservations no no

02:00:22 reservations no no now we know that after the inquests uh the federation formed the competency and accreditation work stream under the leadership of dennis davis to develop matters related to the competency of fire risk assessors now as part of that

02:00:35 fire risk assessors now as part of that work uh workstream members met on the 12th of april 2013 and dennis davis produced a report which i'd

02:00:45 i'd like you to look at that report can be found at home quadruple zero one three five one and forward slash five

02:00:59 just for people concerned this the substance the report starts on page five somewhat unusually do you remember seeing this report at the time no i wouldn't have done because

02:01:10 the time no i wouldn't have done because i'd left in the january preceding this this is april and so it wasn't in general circulation amongst those with an interest now if we can turn to page seven

02:01:22 uh we can see that under the heading competency and assessment it says this the fsf was not to be seen as a third-party competency council but

02:01:33 as a third-party competency council but did have as the coroner put it national influence stopping there is that something with which you'd agree yes i would and as such should act as the guardian of the gold standard

02:01:45 of the gold standard therefore the objective should be to create a quality assurance board charged with ensuring the parties such as those who are signatory to the competency competency council's competency criteria for fire risk

02:01:57 competency criteria for fire risk assessors

02:01:58 assessors abide by their commitment and introduce processes that enable their risk assessors to clearly demonstrate competency there will be a need to ensure this role fits into the fsf profile to avoid

02:02:11 fits into the fsf profile to avoid conflicts with other existing similar bodies already within fsf membership then there are a number of actions which the federation propose to undertake and if you just read them to yourself first

02:02:23 if you just read them to yourself first of all please and then i'll look particularly at recommendations two and three and if you can indicate when you finish reading them

02:02:38 yes i've read them

02:02:41 now number two says the fsf should recommend to each certification scheme owner in the cc

02:02:48 the cc ccfra

02:02:50 ccfra that their scheme offers specific recognition against each of the existing nine areas in the cccfra that the individual assessor is judge competent and this would be known as a

02:03:01 competent and this would be known as a passport

02:03:03 passport three that each passport scheme should also offer a graded level of competency in each area from one to three

02:03:11 three where three is highest and each level reflecting skills and understanding do you recall reading or hearing about this proposed passport scheme no i don't

02:03:25 and if we can turn over the page to page eight

02:03:31 now we see there are a number of i just want to say fully appraised see there are a number of actions um that the federation proposed to take were you aware of those either through hearsay or discussions in

02:03:44 either through hearsay or discussions in the industry generally i i wasn't but i might just add i'm not surprised because this was the fire sector federation setting out its stall to be the sector led body to do this work

02:03:55 led body to do this work you're not when you say you're not well i'm not i'm not surprised to see them want to set out and take the lead on this work and they were very able to do so as a body of bodies now if we can look at an email chain which

02:04:08 look at an email chain which concerned this document which is at clg quadruple zero zero five two six forward slash two

02:04:20 thank you we can see at the bottom of page two that on the 29th of april 2013 ronnie king who we discussed earlier sent a copy of dennis davis's report to you amongst others

02:04:31 you amongst others um

02:04:32 um do you know why mr king sent you a copy no i don't as you as you rightly referred you can see the date on this email which was and i left in the january

02:04:42 january and had retired by then

02:04:47 and then just above that you'll see that you emailed louise upton

02:04:54 louise i would welcome a short meeting on this

02:04:58 on this um what did you want to have a meeting about in particular i wanted to ensure that

02:05:04 that i suspect it was a miss addition to a list of cc's uh by uh ronnie king i just wanted to ensure that uh someone else was picking this up and the

02:05:15 this up and the even though peter holland's name is on here who was my successor and that there was no one expecting me to suddenly get involved in this string of emails because my job had

02:05:26 this string of emails because my job had finished by then by some months why did you contact louise upton rather than peter holland

02:05:33 i may have tried to contact peter holland as well i don't don't recall but it would be natural that i knew that louise was already leading all this before i left to just refer back to her to make sure

02:05:46 to just refer back to her to make sure that uh that that i was not being copied and expected to do anything thank you if we can turn to the foot of page one in this chain we should find that louise up and

02:05:57 we should find that louise up and emailed you and brian martin and copying in others and she said this thanks for sight of this and happy to discuss there are lots of positives in here and it seems the fsf are very keen to grasp

02:06:10 it seems the fsf are very keen to grasp the opportunity to own and develop the risk assessor standard it looks like we could usefully facilitate coordination between the fsf and the lga the latter are planning to undertake a short feedback exercise from

02:06:23 undertake a short feedback exercise from the housing sector on whether the pwbf guidance

02:06:27 guidance continues to meet the needs of those with fire safety responsibilities in these buildings in the light of the lh lachnal house findings our view shared by c s todd associates

02:06:38 our view shared by c s todd associates is that

02:06:39 is that the all issues that were raised by the rule 43s are all covered in detail in that guidance and the outcome of latino house is an opportunity to raise its profile again

02:06:50 opportunity to raise its profile again with the housing sector as part of that there's a major opportunity to drive awareness of the availability of competent fire risk assessors hopefully

02:07:00 hopefully that is what the lga will also include once they have feedback from housing providers now just for the ensure clarity

02:07:11 ensure clarity guidance is another way of referring to the lga guide uh yes purpose built blocks of flex guidance now if we look at the email above that brian martin replied in the following

02:07:23 brian martin replied in the following terms

02:07:24 terms looks to me like the fsf is in danger of trying to do more than is necessary desirable or within its ability but i'm always having these negative thoughts so maybe i'll just let them get on with it

02:07:37 maybe i'll just let them get on with it and if we go to the top of this page you're bri you reply succinctly i agree exclamation mark why did you agree bearing mind the

02:07:48 why did you agree bearing mind the evidence you've just given that the fsf was in danger of trying to do more than is necessary desirable or within its ability

02:07:56 ability well i'm i don't i don't recall but um i think you'll see that what's happened is that i've copied it originally where we started this train i copied it to louise because i was copied in error

02:08:08 because i was copied in error for some reason i'm still being picked up on the email addresses including from bran martin and my successor wasn't by some months in which which i now see as

02:08:19 some months in which which i now see as as odd

02:08:20 as odd and i think i was i was probably just replying to brian and

02:08:26 and recognizing i was really trying to get out this email trail that i was no longer involved in this area of work at all or

02:08:33 all or employed to do so that's all interesting but it's not what you say there what you say there is more succinct brian martin had expressed reservations that the fsf is in danger of trying to

02:08:44 that the fsf is in danger of trying to do more than is necessary desirable within its ability you simply replied i agree can we just bring brian's email up to uh louise and myself again it's on the screen if they just scroll down yes

02:08:56 the screen if they just scroll down yes i think

02:09:05 i i don't think i meant it was negative about the fire sector federation but it was about not over engineering this my thoughts would have been over engineering what would be a process for

02:09:17 engineering what would be a process for a necessary approach to be led by the sector and the faucet filtration of of of

02:09:23 of of being able to do so so that doing more than necessary was my interpretation of over engineering what was needed and had come out of those early reports

02:09:34 early reports well the panel will make of that what they will can we look at another email chain which is linked to this one which is also sent on the 29th of april 2013 and can be found at clg

02:09:45 and can be found at clg quadruple zero zero five two seven

02:09:52 and if we look at the bottom of page one

02:09:57 and just for your information brian martin's email is at the top of page two if you just want to see that

02:10:08 just so you can orientate yourself

02:10:12 and which one do you want me to look at you just wait i'm asking for you can see at the very bottom of page one there's an email from brian martin and the document manager is going to flick over to page two so you can see that

02:10:35 there you go just so you can orientate yourself you can see at the top with brian martin's email yeah we go back to the bottom of page one

02:10:50 you send a further reply to brian martin so nothing to do with you being at the loop or the email sent you an error or anything along those lines what you say is this

02:10:58 is this just to add you'll see that the fsf proposed writing to lga from amendments to the pbf to recognize the fsf role chem

02:11:10 chem were you concerned that the fsf were asking for amendments or you just reporting back what you had heard about their intentions i think i was reporting back on on what

02:11:22 i think i was reporting back on on what i i'd heard in conversation about the intentions well if we can go to the top of page one it reads up and responds in the following way oh lordy

02:11:35 following way oh lordy let's have a meeting sooner rather than later to see what we can do to steer the fsf away from its worst excesses in respect to control freakery i.e the development of a passport scheme

02:11:47 development of a passport scheme it seems that intervention is not without risk and we need to think about how we can best manage it ken and marie will you set something up please now

02:11:59 now the clear impression from that email sir ken is that you were still very much within the department and involved in their deliberations would you agree with that it it does seem that way and i'm

02:12:10 that it it does seem that way and i'm disappointed that i hadn't managed to escape by then and do the work that i was employed to do which i was doing so i'm i suspect it was just the reply

02:12:21 so i'm i suspect it was just the reply to the email that i i'd replied to um but it is a very restricted email which i'm disappointed with and you're asked although it's slightly more directional to set up the meeting did

02:12:32 directional to set up the meeting did that meeting with louise upton and brian martin i don't recall that i i don't recall that and uh i certainly was well engaged if not well through my other review by then did you

02:12:43 through my other review by then did you agree that the fsf needed to be steered away from its worst excesses yes i think it was important to have a proportionate approach to those points in the brian robinson

02:12:55 to those points in the brian robinson letter

02:12:57 letter and as he pointed out in that letter there wasn't a conflict of interest between the interested parties and so there was a welcome steer that the sector was taking a lead

02:13:08 the sector was taking a lead but it didn't need a control mechanism of that kind that was perhaps implied by some of those ten points but the thrust of the sector take of the lead i fully

02:13:19 of the sector take of the lead i fully supported of course

02:13:23 but you have no recollection of the meeting

02:13:25 meeting no i don't i don't i i suspect i was replying to emails because i was still on the government email and list for other reasons in the communities dot gsi uh rather

02:13:37 in the communities dot gsi uh rather than physically involved in those meetings

02:13:41 meetings nasa ken that brings me um to one final question

02:13:46 question and that's this that finally in bearing in mind what we've been discussing over the past day or so and everything that has emerged since the 14th of june 2017 what would you have done differently or

02:13:58 what would you have done differently or not at all um

02:14:03 well i i've of course answered a number of

02:14:07 of questions recognizing that i could have done things differently and might have done you've covered some of those points

02:14:14 points extremely

02:14:16 extremely helpfully

02:14:18 helpfully and i i must say that i'm grateful to have had the opportunity to give evidence of this inquiry sir there is one area that you didn't touch on and and i i do regret that we didn't take further when i was chief advisor

02:14:31 take further when i was chief advisor uh it was a and you will find it of course in the records it was an area of commissioning of work which i called fire findings which is bringing together other incidents other reports rule 43

02:14:44 other incidents other reports rule 43 letters to give better advice to fire rescue services in a single place in order to take the actions they needed to having already made arrangements to publish rule 43s

02:14:56 made arrangements to publish rule 43s from around england will fire rescue service

02:14:59 service but it was dovetailed with the intention to have an opportunity for

02:15:05 for independence of assessment of a fire rescue services intervention not the fire safety or the forensics of a of the cause of fire

02:15:18 of the cause of fire and

02:15:19 and it was a kin in my mind to that independence that is sometimes required to record that transparency and openness alongside the far findings report which i commissioned

02:15:31 far findings report which i commissioned um

02:15:32 um it it was in my mind akin to what we now the police have a scheme of course you'll know they can either refer themselves or someone else is referred to certain matters and i had in mind at that time that it

02:15:43 and i had in mind at that time that it would be

02:15:44 would be for

02:15:45 for public multiple fatalities already firefighter fatalities i regret now that i didn't pursue that approach in a in a constructive way and it needed

02:15:56 in a constructive way and it needed mechanisms and culture change to do it it wasn't widely accepted truthfully by the sector because we were moving to a sector-led approach but having listened to the evidence of

02:16:08 but having listened to the evidence of this inquiry i think it may have had an opportunity to learn some of the lessons from other fires and other experiences that we've heard of during this inquiry today

02:16:20 this inquiry today so ken thank you i have no further questions but thank you for attending to give evidence inquiry no we're going to have to have a little break at this point aren't we mr connect we are

02:16:30 we are and i'd ask for just uh until well half was 12 probably yes so can you probably know that when council gets to the end of his question we have to have a bit of a pause

02:16:41 we have to have a bit of a pause uh partly to enable him to check he's not overlooked anything so i think that's unlikely and partly to enable other people to submit questions that perhaps we should put to you

02:16:52 put to you so we'll

02:16:53 so we'll stop at that point we'll resume please at half past 12 and then at that stage we'll see if there any more questions we need to ask you okay thank you so would you like to give the usher thank you thank you

02:17:09 thanks sir thank you how fast 12 thank you

02:31:50 would you also ken to come back in please

02:32:01 right so kevin we'll see if any more questions thank you yes mr cleveland thank you um in evidence this morning we were discussing the government's approach in response to whole building fires that

02:32:12 response to whole building fires that have been brought about by modern construction techniques and what if anything or what more government could do to assist fire and rescue services respond to that phenomenon do you think or what was your experience

02:32:24 do you think or what was your experience that the government the government's approach to that was hampered due to diminishing technical expertise within government um

02:32:36 partly but it was in relation to the fast

02:32:40 fast moving pace of modern methods of construction so that that that resource that you imply uh needed

02:32:49 uh needed to be matched by the new method of construction and and that's where i think the gap occurred do you think there was enough effective discussion between the various relevant

02:33:02 discussion between the various relevant departments within clg so fire policy building regulations housing about the risks posed by modern construction techniques and particular external cladding and how best to

02:33:14 external cladding and how best to respond to that and the advice given to not only the fire sector but the housing sector

02:33:19 sector um

02:33:21 um with hindsight no i don't think uh collectively the department picked up early enough those inherent risks uh that was cross-cutting in all of those

02:33:33 that was cross-cutting in all of those groups you talked about and

02:33:37 and should have been so at the time and that may well have been competing priorities or resources but the answer is i agree with you

02:33:46 with you ultimately whose role would it or should it would it have been or should it have been

02:33:51 been to bring the various departments within clg together to ensure that effective advice was being given to the fire sector to the housing sector and those who needed to be aware of the

02:34:02 those who needed to be aware of the risks flowing from modern construction techniques i don't think they were as disparate as you suggest because they were close

02:34:12 close working colleagues whether it was in building control housing local authorities and indeed uh fire safety order and fire risk but they were all very clear policy

02:34:23 risk but they were all very clear policy areas

02:34:24 areas but i think uh i i don't think it was as desperately suggest

02:34:30 suggest but i know that your your your questioning has has exposed those sometimes lack of connectivity between those sections which could be and should

02:34:41 those sections which could be and should be improved and just following on from that whose job was it to ensure there was connectivity to use your phrase um

02:34:52 well as an advisor into dclg more generally i was clearly in an advising advisory rather than a policy role and so it would be someone above those

02:35:03 so it would be someone above those policy directors i i try not to second guess who that would be in uh in responsibility as it were line management roles but somewhere in clg or

02:35:15 management roles but somewhere in clg or the department more generally rather than individual directors thank you sir ken thank you very much for attending to give evidence today it's been very much appreciated thank you yes again well i'd like to thank you

02:35:27 you yes again well i'd like to thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel for coming here to give your evidence i think we found it very interesting and very helpful and so we're very grateful to you for doing that thank you sir thank you very much and you're free to go

02:35:46 yes mr kenya now you have another witness i do but before we for you call that witness we need to have a short break just for the usual housekeeping reasons is that right we do

02:35:58 housekeeping reasons is that right we do and if we could start up again um at um if i can say quarter two one and then we can make it might even be before then might

02:36:06 might i

02:36:07 i what i'm going to say is that we will rise now and we will be on hand waiting to be called when the usher tells us you're ready thank you sir thank you very much

02:43:04 yes sir man i called dennis davis thank you very much

02:43:17 good morning mr davis i understand you're going to swear the oath yes i am the testament should be there for you taking your right hand please and repeat the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall

02:43:28 almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now would you like to sit down make yourself comfortable

02:43:40 right good thank you yes mr clear thank you would you please confirm your name for the record dennis tyron davies thank you good afternoon mr davis thank you for attending to give evidence today

02:43:52 for attending to give evidence today my intention is to ask short and clear questions sometimes that doesn't play out if my questions are long and unclear please say so and i'll correct the position

02:44:03 position secondly if at any time during your evidence you require a break please say so that's not a problem at all and thirdly and perhaps most importantly would you please keep your voice up the

02:44:14 would you please keep your voice up the microphones in front of you simply record what you say they don't amplify uh your voice so if you could speak clearly then the transcriber can catch everything you say thank you

02:44:26 everything you say thank you now

02:44:27 now you provided two statements to this inquiry and the first statement is at f s f

02:44:33 s f quadruple 0 0 3 6.

02:44:39 is that it yes and if we turn to page 28 that is your signature yes and it's dated the 19th of november 2020 is that right yes

02:44:51 right yes your second statement is at f s f quadruple zero zero double five two and is that it yes and if we can turn to page five

02:45:04 and if we can turn to page five is that your signature yes and it's dated the 29th of june of 2021 is that right correct have you read both your statements recently yes i have and are their

02:45:15 recently yes i have and are their contents true yes are you happy for those statements to be taken as your evidence this inquiry yes now both those statements exhibit a certain number of documents have you

02:45:27 certain number of documents have you read those documents recently yes thank you

02:45:30 you and finally have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today the legal team and i did speak to the two previous chairman brian

02:45:40 brian fuller who unfortunately died last year very suddenly and before him uh sorry paul for that and before him uh ryan robinson who was our previous chairman thank you now the first topic

02:45:52 chairman thank you now the first topic i'd like to discuss with you is your professional background now

02:45:56 now you've been invited to give evidence today in your capacity as the executive officer of the fire sector federation now before we discuss that organization um i'd like to briefly ask you about

02:46:08 um i'd like to briefly ask you about your career and your background now am i right that you began your career in the fire service in 1965 as a firefighter in the county borough of wall saw fire brigade yes i did and in 1971 you

02:46:21 brigade yes i did and in 1971 you transferred to cheshire yes and thereafter you were promoted and between 1981 and 1999 you held principal office officer responsibilities

02:46:32 office officer responsibilities part of which included command at a number of major incidents in cheshire involving fires and explosions at petrochemical sites pollution in the river mersey and the 1993 warrington

02:46:43 river mersey and the 1993 warrington terrorism attacks is that right that is correct

02:46:46 correct and in june 1999 you're appointed her majesty's chief inspector of fire services for scotland and you held that post until march 2004 correct and then since march 2004 you've

02:46:58 and then since march 2004 you've remained active in the fire sector as an independent fire advisor working both in this country and abroad on numerous projects with various clients correct now in the course of your role as an

02:47:10 now in the course of your role as an independent fire advisor to what extent has

02:47:13 has your role or your retainers required you to advise on the requirements of the regulatory reform fire safety order very few i think i may have made one or two lectures

02:47:25 made one or two lectures for some parties early days but nothing particular have you ever been asked to advise upon the substance or adequacy of individual fire risk assessments no

02:47:37 no i should point out for the inquiry i'm not a practicing fire risk assessor thank you and we don't need to go to it but at paragraph eight of your first witness statement you said that you are and i quote the

02:47:49 you said that you are and i quote the managing director and sole employee of independent fire advisors limited ifal which you established in 2004 is that right that's right can you help us what services does ifal

02:48:03 can you help us what services does ifal provide and to whom it's provided various over the period some have been strategic leadership and investigations for overseas governments some have been

02:48:14 some have been to assist legal counsel uh inquiring into incidents and coroners assisting fire and rescue authorities so quite a wide range now you've held also a number of prominent fire sector roles and these

02:48:27 prominent fire sector roles and these include but not solely these the president and chairman of the institution of fire engineers or the ife is that right that's right the president of the uk chief and assistant chief fire officers

02:48:39 assistant chief fire officers association is that right yes and chairman of the federation of british fire organizations which is also known as the fobfo yes vodka

02:48:49 yes vodka now in broad terms what is the object of fobfo

02:48:53 fobfo fabfo was because it effectively ceased after 50 years an organization a national organization that affiliated itself to an international fire and

02:49:04 itself to an international fire and rescue organization called ctif but internally within the uk it was a networking arrangement to allow people to exchange ideas thoughts concerns

02:49:16 ideas thoughts concerns and am i right that in may 2012 um fob fo

02:49:20 fo merged with the fire sector partnership to form the fire sector federation or the fsf as it is now known that's correct thank you now the second topic i'd like to discuss

02:49:31 now the second topic i'd like to discuss with you is the purpose of the fsf which i'll describe as that or the federation interchangeably now

02:49:39 now in short and please shout if this is an unfair or inaccurate summary the federation is a not-for-profit non-government organization established on the 20th of july 2012 to act as a

02:49:51 on the 20th of july 2012 to act as a forum for the discussion of fire related issues of interest to its membership and to evolve as a central source of information on all aspects relating to fire is that right that's right that's

02:50:02 fire is that right that's right that's right

02:50:05 which organizations are members of the federation not to recall them all but um if you can give the panel yes the field is there'd be institutions institution of fire engineers

02:50:16 institution of fire engineers institutions and fire safety managers there'd be trade unions such as the fire brigade union that we trade bodies principally through organizations like the fire industry association

02:50:27 the fire industry association and there'd be a number of also organizations that would carry out testing

02:50:35 testing and so on so a very broad church um would uh the department for communities and local government in its various guises down the years um also be represented or be a member of the federation it's not a member but in the

02:50:47 federation it's not a member but in the early days particularly 2012 onwards it was represented strongly there was a liaison officer anthony who was a petite moored who was

02:50:59 who was a petite moored who was particularly involved in if you like providing a direct link to dclg as was because that was the foundation of the link

02:51:08 link because the fact the federation itself had been born from smaller government the initiative to drive the sectors to do more for themselves the localism agenda and so on

02:51:19 agenda and so on so the the formation of the federation came really from that review process and if i can stop you again does is the department no longer represented uh as part of the

02:51:31 represented uh as part of the federation's deliberations no it doesn't send a regular uh member to the federation meetings now but it's it's maintained a link in the sense that we uh email it we send information to it

02:51:43 uh email it we send information to it and so on but is it and it was there you could argue as an observer messenger liaison status rather than as i say a member of the the organization thank you

02:51:55 the organization thank you now at paragraph 32 on page eight of your first statement and we don't need to go to it you say that members meet regularly sharing sector knowledge experience and skills with the intent of maximizing

02:52:06 skills with the intent of maximizing effective use of their expertise firstly on behalf of the unified sector and secondly for the overall benefit of uk communities between 2012 and june 2017

02:52:17 between 2012 and june 2017 how often would members meet or would that depend upon the various committees that the federation had set up well there were both there was a forum was its main meeting

02:52:28 there was a forum was its main meeting point and those would be about quarterly so four times a year some of those uh quarterly meetings would for take the form of say a seminar so a particular issue might be discussed

02:52:39 issue might be discussed and then on top of that would be the work stream groups they would be meeting separately pulling their strands together and reporting to the forum so effectively you you had a

02:52:50 the forum so effectively you you had a fairly simple collegiate arrangement where all these bodies came together and we were the umbrella organization and then they would meet collectively at the forum

02:53:01 at the forum and have a discussion and that was the decision body as well so if you wanted to change constitutional matters or drive a particular policy point you would take it to the forum for the forum

02:53:12 would take it to the forum for the forum to to signify agreement and you know support before you moved on thank you mr davis if i can ask you um maybe to answer this question briefly how would the agenda for meetings be

02:53:23 how would the agenda for meetings be decided

02:53:24 decided usually from work stream ideas or for current issues thank you all because the chairman particularly had an issue um i think i think the point to make is

02:53:36 i think i think the point to make is it's a voluntary organization so the people were participating as they wanted to and because it's an umbrella church you're dealing with conflict sometimes i mean some of these

02:53:47 conflict sometimes i mean some of these trade bodies for example will be commercial and they they therefore have different biases as to what they wanted to hear and it was the purpose of the forum in a way was to bring all that together because the

02:53:58 together because the the thing that they were all signed up for the aim was to improve fire safety in the uk that was that was the uh the mother of why we gathered now looking at the

02:54:11 of why we gathered now looking at the background of the federation um it was born of what's called a joint sector working first of all is that right yes yes and first of all to the to the uninitiated um can you give us a brief definition of

02:54:23 um can you give us a brief definition of what joint sector working meant to the federation well for example you you would have groups

02:54:30 groups fire protection association and then you'd have a another group uh maybe the association of building specialists or you you'd have as i say a trade union so you're trying to bring different

02:54:41 you're trying to bring different different parts of the sector together which is quite difficult because it's very diverse and very fragmented now you say in your first witness statement and we don't need to go to it

02:54:52 statement and we don't need to go to it but it's a paragraph 18 that joint sector working had emerged from a government fire futures review launched in july 2010 by the then fire minister bob neal is that right yes

02:55:03 bob neal is that right yes now was joint sector working government policy

02:55:07 policy and or an initiative of the federal of the fire sector i think he came via government really um the idea the idea is as i was saying was smaller government

02:55:18 as i was saying was smaller government therefore that meant the sector had to start

02:55:21 start taking more ownership that in turn meant the sub-sectors needed to come together government gave the prod to the sector yes i mean that there was the futures workshop and

02:55:32 that there was the futures workshop and i think in one of the documents was a paper that illustrated just one part of that and those strands started uh around 29 10 that sort of period and and

02:55:43 around 29 10 that sort of period and and it became evident from that working um that

02:55:47 that being in one place together would pro acting collectively would be a more effective way of achieving the aim that i gave you the national

02:55:58 i gave you the national if we can go to the fire futures report which was published in december 2010 um we can find this at f s f quadruple zero double zero three seven

02:56:16 now presumably you're familiar with that report is that right yes yes and if we can go to page 10

02:56:25 and if we could look at the beginning of the second paragraph in the left hand column

02:56:30 column it says this the built environment continues to become more complex and the threat of fire more difficult to counter we have found that there is significant evidence that fire safety is currently

02:56:41 evidence that fire safety is currently lagging behind these changes and needs to catch up otherwise there is a major risk that fire safety problems are simply inadvertently created and locked up in the built environment to cause problems

02:56:53 the built environment to cause problems of fire safety in the future in short did you agree with that statement in december 2010 yes staying in that left-hand column could we go to the beginning of the fourth paragraph which says this

02:57:05 paragraph which says this there is currently a perceived low level of competency within the sector in relation to fire safety and built environment not helped by the fact there is no common qualifications framework

02:57:16 is no common qualifications framework that covers building and fire safety competencies first of all did you understand the phrase fire safety competencies to include fire risk assessors yes i would i would in 2010 was there a

02:57:29 yes i would i would in 2010 was there a perceived low level of competency in relation to fire safety and the built environment yes there was i i should explain i mean the the the competency here is across the piece so

02:57:41 the piece so one of the concerns in the sector was that people who were designing specifying uh working with buildings in the built environment were not particularly well educated themselves in fire safety in

02:57:53 educated themselves in fire safety in fire

02:57:54 fire and

02:57:55 and one of the big issues for us was that it all starts particularly in the new build in that position you know the the design and specification process and if the building design the

02:58:06 and if the building design the strategies and so on aren't correct then it's very difficult once you move along the line to actually interject into that process and if i could ask you a particular question did in 2010 yes did

02:58:18 particular question did in 2010 yes did you agree that there was an identifiably low level of competency in the particular field of fire risk assessment i think we were aware of concerns in that area yes and can you help us on what basis had you formed

02:58:30 what basis had you formed that view of concerns about low levels of competency i was in fobfo at the time i had had not moved into and as i explained fodfo was more of a

02:58:41 and as i explained fodfo was more of a national international networking organisation but there was certainly noise around and there was some evidence around from anecdotal evidence i'm talking about where people were concerned that fire

02:58:53 where people were concerned that fire risk assessment which had been borne out of the fire safety order and had been specifically organized a self regulation

02:59:04 self regulation with words like this must not become a consultant's charter i'd therefore spawned a range of people who were offering

02:59:15 a range of people who were offering fire risk assessments to

02:59:18 to the market and some of them would not necessarily have gone through any formalized training thank you sir we're just before one o'clock the next section of questions can't be done

02:59:30 next section of questions can't be done in a minute um but uh we should make progress this afternoon right thank you very much um mr davis you've hardly got into your stride but uh it's nearly one o'clock and

02:59:43 but uh it's nearly one o'clock and everyone here including i'm sure you would like to get some lunch so we're going to break at that point and we'll resume please at two o'clock and i was asking you please now you started giving your evidence not to

02:59:54 started giving your evidence not to discuss your evidence or anything relating to it with anyone while you're out of the room of course right thank you very much if you'd like to give the archer shoe look after you thank you

03:00:12 thank you very much two o'clock

03:00:39 you