Evidence from Gerpal Verdi, managing partner of John Rowan and Partners (clerk of works firm), and Mark Osborne of Osborne Berry (cladding installers). Key focus on roles, responsibilities, and understanding of building regulations compliance.
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00:26:34 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to begin with another witness from the firm which carried out site inspections so would you ask mr very to come in
00:26:50 please
00:26:56 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr early sit down make yourself comfortable
00:27:20 make yourself comfortable all right yes ms greg can you please give the inquiry your full name you got power sing verdi thank you very much for coming to give evidence today and to assist the inquiry
00:27:31 evidence today and to assist the inquiry with its investigations i'll be asking you the questions today and if you have difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please do ask me to repeat the question or to put it in a different way sure please also keep your voice up so
00:27:44 sure please also keep your voice up so that the transcribers can hear you um you've made one witness statement for the inquiry which is in a folder on your desk
00:27:52 desk do you have it there yep i do can i please take you to the first page which is
00:27:58 is jrp50333 so that we can see it sure um and then the last page page 15
00:28:07 that's dated 4th of september 2019. do you see that there yep is that your signature at the bottom that is can you confirm that the contents are true
00:28:19 contents are true yes you've also made a statement for the metropolitan police if we could bring that up on the screen that's met three zeros four zero zero five six
00:28:33 and that stated 24th of august 2017. can you confirm that statement is true yes and have you read both of your statements recently have you discussed your evidence with
00:28:44 have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no
00:28:48 i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your qualifications and experience uh you're currently the managing partner of john ryan partners i am yes and you've held this rule for
00:28:59 i am yes and you've held this rule for three years since august 2016. before now yeah sorry maths before that you were the head of building surveying i was what did that rule entail um it was a
00:29:12 what did that rule entail um it was a case of managing a team of building surveyors clarke works for the business so i had overall responsibility for that element of the business how long did you hold that rule good
00:29:23 how long did you hold that rule good question
00:29:24 question uh 2008
00:29:28 uh 2008 ish
00:29:32 and what about before that were you still at john ryan partners i was yes and what role did you hold so before then i would have been an associate partner in the same team have you ever worked as a clerk of
00:29:43 team have you ever worked as a clerk of works yourself no
00:29:50 if we go back to your inquiry statement at jrp
00:29:54 at jrp 50333 page two and we see paragraph seven there you refer to john ryan partners as a construction company dealing with construction projects in
00:30:05 dealing with construction projects in both the private and public sector in your police statement you give a little more detail we don't need to have it up but you describe john ryan partners as a multi-disciplinary property and construction consultancy
00:30:17 property and construction consultancy offering project management quantity surveying building surveying health safety and planning the services offered by john ryan partners included what you describe as site monitoring and
00:30:28 what you describe as site monitoring and supervision services it is yes but also providing clerk of works services for building projects yes well i'm sure we're going to go into that in a bit more detail uh you were not john white's line
00:30:39 uh you were not john white's line manager that was louis zarrow it was yes did louisa report to you he did can you just explain your role within that department so what it was
00:30:50 within that department so what it was that you did specifically again i i would have overall responsibility for the team um and then i would line manage some of our associates who would then that would
00:31:01 our associates who would then that would cascade down to different parts of our team so we'd have building surveyors uh clerk worksite inspectors at that time so that was a
00:31:12 inspectors at that time so that was a managerial role it was yeah and what qualified you to have that role experience i'd been at the firm since 2004
00:31:23 2004 worked my way up i managed people along the way
00:31:27 the way i was responsible for putting bids together
00:31:31 and just general management do you have any technical background or qualifications yes i'm a chartered building surveyor
00:31:41 prior to 2014 what experience did john rowan partners have of working on projects with rain screen cladding systems
00:31:50 systems so in my 16 years of being there we
00:31:56 have two teams we have two teams one one sorry one we work in the public sector and the private sector but we also work in new build housing and refurbishment so in both those elements so on the new
00:32:08 so in both those elements so on the new board housing side we had experience in working with cladding
00:32:13 cladding on high-rise buildings and i think two of them at that time were acm or rain main screen cladding
00:32:23 do you know around what time that would have been so what year it would have been
00:32:30 it could have been any time between 2008 onwards and was that within the clerk of work
00:32:40 work site supervision team or was that a different area of the business that was working on this so that would have been on the new build which would have been the employer's agent side and we would have
00:32:51 agent side and we would have worked as a site inspector on some of those
00:32:55 those and on others there would have been other site inspectors
00:33:00 and again prior to 2014 uh did john ryan partners have any direct experience of working on high-rise residential recladding projects yes so that's the same ones that you're talking about
00:33:13 were you aware of the requirements of schedule 1 part b fire safety of the building regulations i would have been aware of the building regulations but not specific
00:33:24 regulations but not specific uh were you aware of part b three internal fire spread same same answer okay so the same would go for part b4 yeah what about the guidance in approved document b
00:33:36 document b again yeah so i would have had an awareness of it so aware that it existed aware that it had existed
00:33:43 existed uh in my in my training i would have been on courses on legislation cpds and and things like that would you have known what approved document be advised
00:33:55 known what approved document be advised with regard to the external surface of the building um at that time not specifically no
00:34:04 and you referred to your training as giving you a background in the legislation um when you were in your managerial roles
00:34:13 roles from 2008 onwards were you attending cpd or courses on um approved document b or the building regulations i would have because i'm a chartered surveyor i would have had to have done
00:34:24 surveyor i would have had to have done my cpd
00:34:25 my cpd so as part of that i would have been keeping up to date with changes in legislation and anything that that was coming through at that time
00:34:38 uh would you have expected those that you were
00:34:41 you were contracting out for a clark of works or site supervision work to be familiar with approved document b
00:34:51 i i would have expected them to be familiar with more than just approved document b but the rest of the the approved documents that were there as a general clerk works or build or site inspector
00:35:05 and that would be familiar with what it actually says rather than just having a general knowledge that it would be an awareness again it would be an awareness
00:35:15 and and it's probably worth the reason why because clark works in site inspectors whichever way you want to call them and the terminology will talk a bit about of that in my experience
00:35:27 about of that in my experience 95 of the clarker works general building clerk works have come through the trades they're ex-laborers they're plasterers they're electricians so their awareness
00:35:39 they're electricians so their awareness would be
00:35:40 would be general building
00:35:43 that gives a bit of background
00:35:47 i'm now going to ask you about your role on the grenfell project before i go on to ask you some detailed questions about the contract with
00:35:56 with at kctmo i just would like to clarify your role
00:35:59 your role um you were the manager within john ryan partners responsible for the contract with kctmo is that right the bid came through through to me yeah did you go to site yourself at any point
00:36:10 did you go to site yourself at any point no
00:36:12 no did john white or tony batty ever discuss what they observed on site or their site reports with you no
00:36:22 if we could go to jrp 60
00:36:31 this is an email from you to claire williams dated 16th of july 2014. we'll come back to it under a separate topic but you'll see there in the third paragraph
00:36:42 paragraph you refer to louis zeroa and say he will manage the clerk of works from our side internally and will also be your main point of contact from a management point of view and then you go on was that you
00:36:54 and then you go on was that you effectively handing the job over to louis zeroa yeah at that time he would have been managing the clerk work site inspectors and would have had the day-to-day
00:37:05 and would have had the day-to-day responsibility for those members in that team were you involved at all in the contract after that i would have had tbms which are task-based management meetings with luis
00:37:17 task-based management meetings with luis one-to-one so to speak further down the line
00:37:21 line just to have a feel and understanding of what was going on in these projects so at those meetings you would have asked him about what was happening on the grenfell yeah just a general update and how things are progressing what's
00:37:32 and how things are progressing what's going on are there any issues did any particular issues come up in those meetings
00:37:40 no only only what insofar has happened after
00:37:44 after this email that we were asked to meet with
00:37:47 with clear in september and then the feedback i got that they haven't asked for us to return until a later period
00:37:55 period and that was as far as we got at that point
00:37:59 point so when tony bassey and john white were actually on site carrying out inspections you weren't aware of any issues or
00:38:05 issues or again it would have been general updates from luis and i can't recall there being any
00:38:10 any issues or challenges no um if we could go to jrp 50295 please page 17.
00:38:25 we'll come back to this document again but this is your bid submission to the tmo in response to their invitation to tender if we just look at the second paragraph from the bottom
00:38:38 so scrolling down thanks it says gerpal who heads up our clerk of works team will also conduct quarterly meetings with your development directors obtaining updates on current projects and your future objectives to improve
00:38:50 and your future objectives to improve efficiencies understand challenges and add value at all levels we know that john ryan partners was working with the tmo on other projects were these quarterly meetings supposed
00:39:01 were these quarterly meetings supposed to cover all john ryan partners projects or was were they specific to grenfell good question um we had two teams
00:39:12 good question um we had two teams from our business working with kc tmo so psr which is public sector regeneration had won
00:39:19 had won um the framework for multi-disciplinary services on the kitchen and bathrooms program so the crm there would have been in earlier the client relationship manager would have been earlier in
00:39:30 have been earlier in with kctmo maybe a year before this so there were meetings quarterly meetings i think i wouldn't have the dates or whether they were
00:39:42 have the dates or whether they were quarterly it just depends on when the client would be available when you can get dates in the diary but they would look at the overall picture i didn't personally have that because if there's a crm already attending that meeting
00:39:53 a crm already attending that meeting then
00:39:55 then one person game would cover it um so when it says gerpal will also conduct quarterly meetings that didn't actually i didn't know and so you wouldn't have been aware if grenfell came up at any of
00:40:06 been aware if grenfell came up at any of those meetings we would have had whoever would have gone to that meeting the crm would have put back notes if there were if there was anything and
00:40:17 if there were if there was anything and was there anything
00:40:21 so we'll move on now to ask you some questions about the contract with kctmo um you were the individual who dealt with the tender yes
00:40:32 and was it you who actually put the bid together yourself i would have worked with the marketing team
00:40:39 team how did you find out that the tmo was seeking bidders for this project
00:40:44 i believe an email came through from procurement to the crm and then it was passed on to us as the clerk or worksite inspectors to prepare the bid
00:40:56 inspectors to prepare the bid or look at the bid first of course did anyone at the tmo ever tell you why they were seeking to engage a clerk of works only what i can read in the bid that was was presented
00:41:08 was presented can we go now to the invitation to tender which is at jrp 6011
00:41:15 [Music] [Applause] so page one that's titled site monitoring and supervision services improvements and enhancements to grenfell tower do you see that
00:41:26 grenfell tower do you see that yep and moving on then to page four
00:41:32 it states under the heading requirements that the tmo requires an organization to provide two clerks of works
00:41:40 works to assist in the supervision and monitoring of the works one clerk of work should have experience in mechanical and electrical installations and the other with building works and then in brackets ideally with experience of the installation of external cladding
00:41:54 of the installation of external cladding did you note at the time that the tmo was looking for a building clerk of works
00:41:57 works with experience of the installation of cladding
00:42:01 cladding i think with this document you have to look at it in its entirety so and i'm i'm hoping we can go back and look at the first page of this um but yes as i read that ideally with
00:42:13 um but yes as i read that ideally with ex
00:42:13 ex general building clark works yes so the skill set of a clerk or works is required to carry out supervision and monitoring of the works is the first thing that would register in my mind
00:42:25 thing that would register in my mind then reading that on in brackets ideally with experience of installation of external cladding now cladding comes in many different forms tile glass you name it so in terms of
00:42:37 glass you name it so in terms of experience we had that within our resources so reading that at that point of looking at this document
00:42:47 document fine i understand that um you then see experience another clerk works should have experience in mechanical and electrical installations okay
00:42:58 electrical installations okay that that's fine but i think you need to look at the page before this to get the full context of how i would have looked at the document well we can do that now if we go back a page then to page three
00:43:13 page then to page three and there it sets out under background to the procurement requirement it gives some background to the grenfell tower refurbishment yeah so second paragraph it says a project has been approved to undertake
00:43:25 project has been approved to undertake the following works new external cladding and double glazed windows to all flats
00:43:30 all flats yeah so so in in terms of reading this i mean i would have read this document three or four times before before i'd start considering it fully just to make sure i fully understand it now you read that new external cladding
00:43:43 now you read that new external cladding and double glazed windows to all flats i understand that that's part of the project then then there's more detail on you've got a communal heating system going in you've got the installation of individual hius surface run central
00:43:56 individual hius surface run central heating with each flat there's 120 flats hot cold water services new seven new flats
00:44:05 flats reprovision of a nursery and a boxing club and something that resonates with me at this time of reading that document all flats will remain occupied during construction works that's massive that that it's a live site so
00:44:18 that that it's a live site so when i read that i look at that thinking okay there's external cladding going on i understand yes when you read all flats will
00:44:26 will remain occupied during the construction works that's from our experience and our site inspectors and clerk works have worked in that area when you're dealing with that
00:44:35 that amount of work and the amount of disruption it causes for residents that's you need some experience of understanding how you'd work in that that building so they're the the things
00:44:46 that building so they're the the things that i would have considered then you look at the second paragraph and and it's a design and build contract
00:44:55 and then it goes on to say um contract administrator cdm coordinator is atelier the max fordham has been appointed as a technical advisor to provide the kctml with technical support
00:45:07 provide the kctml with technical support relating to m e now to me reading that document there's a lot of stuff going on internally and the tmo have appointed
00:45:19 and the tmo have appointed someone specialist to look at the mechanical element so to me that's an extra layer that's been put in which they at that at the time of reading this this this is an important part for them
00:45:30 this is an important part for them that causes them concern so then when i look at the next page and then you read that in the context of a clarker works to provide site inspection and the building clerk works so general
00:45:42 and the building clerk works so general building clerk works ideally to have experience it doesn't
00:45:47 doesn't if if it said there i need an expert facade engineer to check
00:45:54 check the external cladding that would raise the red flag in my mind it would raise a red plug in my mind because i would have asked the question internally do we have that resource if we if we
00:46:05 do we have that resource if we if we haven't got it i'd have to bring that in but what we had to do with the mechanical electrical we had to bring that resource in to deliver that aspect so
00:46:16 to deliver that aspect so max fordham you knew uh would have been more on the m e side as a specialist advisor
00:46:22 advisor yeah and if i understand what you're saying that means that you thought you needed to get a specialist at the clock of work i didn't say we needed to get a specialist clocker works what it says there is
00:46:33 clocker works what it says there is ideally have experience in external cladding which we did at that point we didn't know what type of cladding it was just going through your answer in stages
00:46:45 just going through your answer in stages um you did subcontract out um the m e work to tony bassey yes um and was that because from this document
00:46:54 document you form the impression that the m e works were going to be complicated and also important to the tmo that was a request they asked for a mechanical electrical uh clarke works
00:47:05 mechanical electrical uh clarke works we do not have that in-house therefore we subcontracted that out and focusing on the cladding did anything in this bid give you any indication that um it was
00:47:16 give you any indication that um it was rain screen cladding that was going to be installed no
00:47:21 did you form an impression from this bid that the general clerk of works was to have
00:47:26 have a more limited role than the m e clerk of works
00:47:32 could you just repeat that again please so from at the time from reading this document
00:47:37 document did you form any impressions about whether
00:47:40 whether the general building clock of works was to have a more limited role than the m e clock of works i'd say that they were both limited
00:47:53 they were both limited why do you say that
00:47:57 you've got to fundamentally look at what the role was so site inspection and monitoring services
00:48:04 services and you look at the contract it's a design and build contract where where the client has transferred the responsibility for com ultimately
00:48:17 the responsibility for com ultimately they've transferred the responsibility for
00:48:21 for for a product to be designed fully compliant
00:48:27 and the best quality they can build it now when i when i see that i know contractually
00:48:36 that a clerk works isn't necessary for this job because there isn't that requirement so i know instantly my role is is is limited if i was a full-time clerk who works in a
00:48:47 full-time clerk who works in a traditional contract the risk is more with the client and the architect in terms of compliance and
00:48:58 and and the extent by the architect by extension employs a clerk of works to be his eyes and ears and and in traditionally you would be full time on site so you have maximum
00:49:09 full time on site so you have maximum exposure to a site you'll understand what's going on in meetings subcontractor meetings if anyone's turning up to the site any issues which perhaps
00:49:22 any issues which perhaps someone would want to keep to themselves your ear would be to the wall so you'll know so for me that's already
00:49:29 already a major shift and then when you when you get to
00:49:34 get to looking at the site inspection role that breaks already there does that make sense so i'm only and
00:49:47 i'm only and it's subject to what the client wants you to do um under this this contract because this is a client-led appointment and it's limited to
00:49:58 appointment and it's limited to a site based inspection i'm only involved in that element so once they're on site i'm inspecting site
00:50:08 so where there is a design and build contract
00:50:11 contract and where you have formed the view that a full-time clerk of works isn't necessary or isn't what's being asked for
00:50:19 asked for why wouldn't the client want a more limited
00:50:23 limited role to be their eyes and ears on site even if it's just a day a week could you say that again sorry i missed the first part
00:50:31 part so where you have a design and build contract which is what we have here um and where you know you're not going to be on site every day why wouldn't the client want the clerk
00:50:42 why wouldn't the client want the clerk of works on those days to be their eyes and ears
00:50:45 and ears on the days that they're not there no the days that they are why would they want them to be why wouldn't they why wouldn't they sorry you've confused me there my sorry my my understanding of your
00:50:57 my my understanding of your answer was that a clerk of works that's on site every day is the client's eyes and ears yeah is that different for a clerk of works who's only on site one day a week um yeah yeah i i i understand what you
00:51:10 um yeah yeah i i i understand what you mean now
00:51:11 mean now um yes they would still be their eyes and ears
00:51:15 and ears but the difference is in the amount of information they'll be able to glean on that one day compared to being there five days a week um if we could
00:51:28 go now to page four uh of this document back to the section headed requirements and at the second half of the page if we zoom in on that
00:51:40 half of the page if we zoom in on that um does it go down there it says there that the duties of the clerk of work shall comprise but not be limited too and i'll
00:51:52 comprise but not be limited too and i'll just pick out a few
00:51:56 second bullet point down have access to the drawings and specification and be familiar with the same using them as a reference when inspecting the work and then a few more bullet points down taking measurements and samples on site
00:52:08 taking measurements and samples on site to make sure that the work and the materials meet the specifications and quality standards and then third bullet from the bottom being familiar with the legal requirements and checking that the work complies with them
00:52:19 complies with them would you say that description accords with the tasks a clerk of works normally undertakes yeah this is a standard standard generic lift from
00:52:29 lift from the institute of clarker works and they term it clark works stroke site inspector so yes so this is a generic
00:52:40 but that is what the tmo was asking your company to do on site do you agree i agree that was part of it there was further instructions that were provided
00:52:50 provided later on specific instructions we'll come to those a little bit later in relation to have access to the drawings and specification and be familiar with the same what did
00:53:03 and be familiar with the same what did you understand that to mean at the time so under site inspection
00:53:10 i would expect that we'd have a general understanding of what's being built i if you're a site inspector and you're
00:53:21 i if you're a site inspector and you're you're working on site and you're joining
00:53:24 joining a project when it's on site you've got to get yourself familiar with what the work is so you can plan manage and and work your way around the site now you can
00:53:34 you can be a site inspector on a 175 million pound project or a 10 million pound project
00:53:41 project now i wouldn't expect on either that you would
00:53:46 would review thousands of drawings because you're asked to to visit on site and if you could scroll sorry up and there's a little clue
00:53:59 you know mobilization period intermittent involvement until work start on site proper now they they've even indicated
00:54:11 they they've even indicated two to three days there to for pre-start meetings and familiarizing yourselves with with specs and planning requirements now that gives you a gauge of
00:54:22 that gives you a gauge of of how they anticipate it and how we would would see it now therefore you'd have a general understanding of
00:54:33 you'd have a general understanding of the building works that are taking place and then when you're on site you'll have a better understanding of how that all starts to work but you would expect a a clerk of works under this contract to
00:54:45 a clerk of works under this contract to at least be familiar with what had been specified on site yes i would expect them to have read the document
00:54:52 document and then looked at it and familiarize themselves on site when they're there if necessary and that would include the specification for the cladding it would be just getting a general favor for the whole
00:55:04 general favor for the whole project that that's one element of it yes
00:55:07 yes yes so look looking at the specification and seeing what materials were being used
00:55:11 used as part of the external facade
00:55:16 sorry oh sorry yeah yeah yes um if it is yes so the transcribers can hear you um in practice if one of your teams spotted on site that works did not match the specification
00:55:28 works did not match the specification would you expect them to raise this so if they were walking around on site and they spotted that something wasn't in accordance with
00:55:39 that something wasn't in accordance with the drawings then you would expect them to pick it up if they saw it
00:55:44 so if they had familiarized themselves with the specification and they saw a material that wasn't in the specification being installed on site that's something they should be raising if they if they
00:55:55 they should be raising if they if they saw it yes
00:55:59 surely that's the sort of thing they should be checking for though
00:56:08 well in terms of his walk around on site they would be looking around and if they saw something that wasn't right they would raise it and put it in their report so that's the extent then of what you'd
00:56:20 so that's the extent then of what you'd expect someone to do under this contract is walk around and if there was an obvious problem that they saw
00:56:27 they saw they could raise it but they wouldn't go and ask
00:56:31 and ask who was working on site what are you installing i think the the key here is it's it's a design and build program so it's fluid
00:56:42 fluid yeah so in a traditional sense a contract
00:56:45 contract if it was a traditional project the the the tender drawings would have pro probably have been full plans approved building reg drawings for example so from the outset of a project you'll know what's being built
00:56:57 project you'll know what's being built so slightly easier on a design and build it's more fluid so think things can change so it's very important in this one day
00:57:05 one day that you're on site that you have that general walk around and you ask the questions where you can and you check whether built because they're working close the contractor is working closely with building control and that's important
00:57:18 building control and that's important here
00:57:19 here and we would ask the questions from what they have seen and what's being built is that in accordance and is it approved so if building control
00:57:31 is it approved so if building control had been there and said there was an issue with what they are seeing then i would expect um john or whichever site inspector to pick up that
00:57:42 whichever site inspector to pick up that issue
00:57:43 issue and raise it
00:57:46 we'll come on to the topic of building control in a moment um the clerk of works were intended to be on site one day a week each during the construction period and that's what it says in this document
00:57:58 and that's what it says in this document um
00:58:00 um that's a regular attendance on site isn't it
00:58:03 isn't it one day a week it depends what's regular i mean some clients might turn around and say well once a month might be regular for them but it's not
00:58:14 might be regular for them but it's not the case that the clerk of works was coming
00:58:16 coming walking around seeing what was happening and then not coming back for weeks on end they would have been regularly up to date on what was happening we we were asked to visit site once a week um and so they should
00:58:28 site once a week um and so they should know then what changes were happening on site on a weekly basis shouldn't they well it depends what they're doing on that day um and then you this is where i think you've got to look at the specific
00:58:39 you've got to look at the specific requirements what the client had asked us to do
00:58:42 us to do um and we can do that at some point so their job would be to walk around and understand what's going on on that job and that's limited to talking to ryden's
00:58:55 and that's limited to talking to ryden's who are the the principal contractor in charge of understanding what they do on site
00:59:01 on site so i would expect us to walk around get a general feel for what the client has asked us to do and prepare in our report
00:59:12 to do and prepare in our report during the construction period if the design changed that's something that the clerk of works would have been informed about he if well you've got to remember on this the
00:59:24 well you've got to remember on this the client didn't instruct us to attend any design team meetings and for the first six months from when we did start we still weren't involved in any site progress meetings so in terms of picking up that knowledge
00:59:38 so in terms of picking up that knowledge john would have had to pick that up from his
00:59:41 his site inspections how is it that you can expect
00:59:46 expect a clerk of works to do their job um if as you are saying they may not be aware of design changes or what's happening on site you'd hope from that that
00:59:56 that that inspection that he picks up that information by asking the question
01:00:04 moving on um if we could go back to the bottom half of that page again
01:00:12 and just to ask you about the requirement to be familiar with the legal requirements and checking that the work
01:00:17 work complies with them
01:00:21 did you note that requirement at the time you're preparing the tender sure yes and i think you said in the industry
01:00:27 industry that's a standard term for a clock of works appointment yes what did you understand the legal requirements to be
01:00:39 i think you need to be more specific in compliance can be many things so in your terms
01:00:47 terms well it's written there be familiar with the legal requirements knowing what you knew of this job from the tender what were those legal requirements um so legal requirements in in my mind
01:01:02 there's there's too many different parts of this so let me try and break it down into what i think in terms of building compliance
01:01:17 i would in this instance say that we would be checking that the works were compliant by asking the question of building control and the principal contractor and i i backed
01:01:30 the principal contractor and i i backed that by saying something i said earlier that the general building clerk works you have to understand where their their background is they they could be a laborer there could
01:01:42 they they could be a laborer there could be a plasterer it could be an electrician so if
01:01:48 and so if they're looking at that element
01:01:52 element they can only do it within their sphere of expertise so if they're being asked to check whether something is compliant as the
01:02:03 whether something is compliant as the design
01:02:05 design i would expect them to ask the expert who's responsible for that element because they wouldn't they wouldn't be an expert
01:02:14 in every single facet of every approved document
01:02:17 document and the general building so on this job you knew that cladding formed part of it sure um you selected john white for the role um you knew he had
01:02:29 the role um you knew he had some experience of cladding and we heard on thursday that he had done one rain screen cladding project before so on the basis of your answer would you have expected
01:02:40 of your answer would you have expected him to know of the building regulations requirements with cladding systems i would have expected him to have an awareness of the building regulations and ask the question to those who are responsible for
01:03:00 compliance
01:03:04 uh if we could go to paragraph 34 of your statement to the inquiry which is jrp 5033 page 8.
01:03:17 page 8. and it's paragraph 34 at the bottom you say it's my understanding that all considerations relevant to the building regulations should have been dealt with by the principal contractor and those
01:03:28 by the principal contractor and those professional bodies dealing with design planning and specifications and then on to the next page
01:03:37 paragraph 36 you're asked the question did anyone at jrp form a view as to whether the design of the refurbishment of the tower complied with the relevant building regulations
01:03:49 and you answered that there no because it was not part of jrp's remit
01:03:55 having looked at the clause in the invitation to tender with me do you agree now that it was intended that john ryan's partner's role was to check for compliance with the building regulations
01:04:10 no but that's what it says in the tender it asks us to if we could go back so you've got to go back go back if you go back to the previous paragraph
01:04:21 back to the previous paragraph the one that you well we'll go back to the um
01:04:24 the um invitation to tender there so you can see the words again which is jrp i just lost my reference there jrp 6011 page four
01:04:39 jrp 6011 page four okay it says there very clearly in the third bullet point from the bottom that the clock of works duties shall be being familiar with the legal requirements and checking that the works comply with
01:04:50 and checking that the works comply with them it doesn't say check that those responsible are checking does it it it doesn't either so let's go back to what the design and
01:05:01 let's go back to what the design and build contract was the responsibility under design and build contract is for the principal contractor to
01:05:11 provide the client with a product which is fully compliant designed to to a top quality now they have been paid a fee
01:05:23 now they have been paid a fee to design
01:05:26 uh and ensure the compliance of that we haven't
01:05:30 haven't what i'm trying to say there is we haven't been part of that process we're coming in on site and those discussions and those issues are being addressed
01:05:41 and those issues are being addressed by others of which we're not involved so the best we can do is by asking the question
01:05:49 question have you guys
01:05:53 check that it's compliant and have building control approved it but your client here is asking you to check
01:05:59 check why is the terms of the design and build contract relevant at all
01:06:06 now what i'm trying to show you there is the distinction of where that lies now if if you're asking me to actually what would be good is if you can what do you think it means
01:06:18 can what do you think it means it's probably going to help me answer the question better what in your mind i'm a bit unclear as to what you're asking me to answer well i'm interested in your evidence and
01:06:29 well i'm interested in your evidence and your answers to these questions so i'm asking you the questions and all i'm asking you is given that it just says checking that the work complies with
01:06:40 checking that the work complies with them why it is that you formed the view that that was limited to checking that building control we're checking
01:06:46 checking okay um are you asking that we should have or are you implying that we should have checked each design and validated it for
01:07:00 checked each design and validated it for compliance i'm trying to understand what your understanding of the rule was and i think we have to see if i can help what i think is being put to you for your
01:07:11 being put to you for your comment agreement or disagreement is that this line in the duties requires your building inspector to be aware of all
01:07:22 building inspector to be aware of all the legal requirements applicable to the work and to ensure that
01:07:29 that they are all complied with is that a fair way of putting it yes now what what do you say about that i i don't think it's to ensure i think it's to check and by checking is asking
01:07:41 it's to check and by checking is asking the question of those who are responsible for compliance to confirm that it complies or not
01:07:48 or not and the reason is because if if you're if you're asking us to confirm that it all complies i would probably need 15 different experts for every single approved
01:08:01 experts for every single approved document
01:08:02 document to confirm that it complies which is not what
01:08:06 what the client is intending they've already procured a design and build contract for the principal contractor to take that responsibility
01:08:19 all right thank you
01:08:23 what value was john ryan partners adding to the client if all it was doing was checking that building control was checking
01:08:33 i think we were asked by the client and there's there's a specific email of what they
01:08:44 there's a specific email of what they requested us to do and it was to inspect cite and report on i think five or six different aspects of the project
01:08:55 different aspects of the project and identify any issues that we would find
01:09:00 find and and the reports to be fair do pick up issues and areas that needed to be addressed so there is value in that part of that also was and one of the requirements from the tmo
01:09:12 requirements from the tmo was to engage with the residents in terms of dealing with their issues and there were there were issues
01:09:19 issues and it's a disruptive and it's a disruptive program of works and the client had asked
01:09:27 asked for john to either attend meetings with residents
01:09:33 who may have had issues with works and what's going on so they were there
01:09:41 to help the process so i think that the value is there the value is there but details of the building control visits to site were included in the ride-in progress reports
01:09:52 included in the ride-in progress reports so if it was just a matter of the clock of works looking at those reports and reporting that back to the client what additional value is there
01:10:07 well it wasn't just
01:10:11 picking out from the minutes it was also asking the question of writings when they were there and getting just as a general feel so that that's what again that's one aspect of it
01:10:20 of it you know there's five other elements that were being reported on
01:10:26 but if you're going to hone in on on building control that is one aspect but there's five other elements which were just as important
01:10:39 should the clerk of works not check for himself precisely what building control was checking by talking to them directly
01:10:49 well we didn't have a contractual relationship with them number one and then the practicality of it is is your attending site once once a week if they're there on site
01:11:01 once a week if they're there on site you may see them you you may not
01:11:05 and generally what tends to happen is the contractual relationship is between the principal contractor and and building control and they're dealing with it we're almost like a fly on the wall
01:11:16 like a fly on the wall so we'll we'll pick up that information from logs so it really does does depend on on when you visit site because there isn't an obligation
01:11:29 for our site inspector for building control to engage with us because we have no link with them so it's just a matter of chance then as to
01:11:40 chance then as to whether if you if you meet them yes if it could be a matter of chance yes so that's why you look at the log in practice if one of your teams spotted on site that works did not comply with the building
01:11:51 the building regulations you would expect them to raise this wouldn't you as per the design yeah what about obvious breaches uh for example an absence of cavity barriers around the windows if it was an issue of if that's what it
01:12:04 if it was an issue of if that's what it said in the design and it wasn't fitted then yes
01:12:08 then yes not compliance with the design but non-compliance with approved document b so would prove document b is clear that you require cavity barriers around the windows
01:12:18 windows isn't that something a clock of work should have noticed well the design the design had already been
01:12:26 prepared and
01:12:33 and a significant amount i remember i remember from looking at one of the reports
01:12:38 reports that building control had approved
01:12:42 the top three floors for compliance so therefore john would have picked that up
01:12:51 up and that's what the model was that followed all the way down but if the clerk of works knew that the guidance under adb said cavity barriers around the windows and he saw on site there weren't any
01:13:02 and he saw on site there weren't any there would you expect him to at least query this with the designer as to why they weren't there
01:13:12 well well it would depend on what number one the design had already been approved
01:13:21 approved yeah there are instances where um you may spot something but ultimately it's a responsibility we could we could say we don't like the color of that wall
01:13:34 color of that wall or that doesn't look quite right it's for the principle that can be raised and it's all the principle that's right for the principal contractor
01:13:45 contractor address or not or ignore what we say because if the design complies that's the overwriting overriding position
01:13:57 so in this instance the design complied did it ever occur to you that both building control and the clerk of works could be responsible for checking compliance
01:14:08 compliance with the building regulations in which way
01:14:18 well did it ever occur to you that it could be both building control and the clock of work so just because building control are doing it doesn't mean that there's no separate obligation under the contract with the tmo on the clerk of works to do it
01:14:31 tmo on the clerk of works to do it see i i think there's two different things at play there i think one is
01:14:39 you'd be looking for workmanship quality of workmanship as a as a site inspector and if you'd spotted something which didn't wasn't in accordance with the designs and it was obvious you would pick it up
01:14:50 and it was obvious you would pick it up and you'd put it in your report um did you have any contact with kctmo about this project after you hand it
01:15:03 about this project after you hand it over to louis arua
01:15:08 did i have any contact with kctmo yes so we looked at the email where you handled in relation to this project yes in relation to this project no i don't think i did
01:15:22 so were you aware of whether the kctml ever said
01:15:25 ever said to um those who did have contacts so louis zero john white tony batty that jrp's role was in fact not to check for compliance with legal
01:15:36 not to check for compliance with legal requirements they would check compliance by checking that building control are happy with what they did but were you aware of any conversation with the tmo where that was made clear
01:15:47 tmo where that was made clear i'm aware that there was a meeting with the client where she set out her specific requirements
01:15:59 were you aware of any difference between what you thought jrp's role was and what the tmo thought jrp's role was
01:16:10 say that again sorry were you aware of any difference between what the tmo thought you might be doing and what you had interpreted the clerk of works rule to be no and and the reason being is that at that
01:16:24 and and the reason being is that at that time
01:16:24 time when i was contacted by claire williams she had said she would be looking at the terms of our appointment and we'll meet later on so in my mind i
01:16:35 and we'll meet later on so in my mind i do remember that vividly that i said to all three actually luis john and and tony make sure you understand
01:16:47 and tony make sure you understand exactly what the brief is from the client what they want exactly and precisely what they want us to do could we go to uh tmo20840364
01:17:54 [Music] so that is claire williams one of claire williams statements to the inquiry if we could go to page 7 at paragraph 34 please
01:18:06 so this is how claire williams describes jrp's role which is tmo also engaged john ryan and partners as clark of works to inspect various works on site this included inspection of workmanship
01:18:17 this included inspection of workmanship and quality to ensure works were carried out as designed and to challenge ryden when necessary if there were shortcomings they also had a rule to report on health and safety issues this was an additional tier of
01:18:28 issues this was an additional tier of inspection to ensure works were completed to a good standard and to ensure
01:18:31 ensure the landlord's future maintenance risk was limited do you agree with that description of your role
01:18:39 the yes um and i'll explain why i think parts of it do the inspection of workmanship and quality if you're inspecting on a weekly basis
01:18:50 if you're inspecting on a weekly basis part of the report was to have a look at the quality of workmanship and if you spot any issues raise that in your report
01:19:01 as far as i'm aware the the works were completed as designed
01:19:07 in terms of health and safety issues it would have been general site safety issues which would have been picked up in the report and then we were asked
01:19:18 to check the finishes of snag the finished
01:19:23 finished finish so to speak that makes sense you say as far as you know um the works were carried out as designed how do you know that
01:19:35 again by asking the question and checking whether building control had any issues moving on you say at paragraph 11 of your statement that
01:19:46 at paragraph 11 of your statement that john ryan partners appointment was for site monitoring and supervision services we don't need to pull that up um
01:19:53 um and at paragraph 17 of your statement you say that the services were not clerk of works in a typical sentence john white has used similar terminology in his statement and evidence to the inquiry is this something you've
01:20:04 inquiry is this something you've discussed with him before coming here today i've been discussing this with clients and our team for 16 years um site inspection
01:20:17 i mean i i i see
01:20:21 confusion for those who are not involved in doing
01:20:24 in doing this type of work clarke works in his traditional sense and i think john's already spoken about how how
01:20:32 how how how that works but clark when you read clark works as it is there it feels like it's a fuller role than what a site than than what it is if you're a site inspector
01:20:43 you're a site inspector mr verdi i think it would help me and perhaps others if you were just to give us a brief description of what you understand due to the role of a clerk of works in the full sense
01:20:54 the full sense and compare it with what you understand to be the role of a site inspector yeah yeah in in the traditional sense it's worth understanding that the client
01:21:05 it's worth understanding that the client if it's a traditional contract the client is ultimately responsible for the compliance all the risk pretty much sits with them and then they appoint an architect who is the lead designer
01:21:16 architect who is the lead designer and obviously that that contractual obligation passes on to them to make sure that the design is compliant um and you would probably engage
01:21:27 um and you would probably engage um a clarker works at that point i might add again it would be someone who's a general clerk of work so it could have been a laborer plasterer
01:21:36 plasterer i keep saying that and they would get an understanding of what the job is from from the start so they've got a good feel for it now the tender package and what would go out to contractor to price
01:21:47 out to contractor to price would probably be on the basis of an approved
01:21:51 approved set of drawings which have been through building control so you've got no ambiguity in what the design is
01:21:59 design is so very very clear what it is that will go out to tender
01:22:05 and then obviously once it's on site you wouldn't expect the lead architect to be on site full-time because that'd be a fairly expensive way of running a running a project and the clarker works would
01:22:18 and the clarker works would be the person on site full time have his own site office have those drawings to hand and and work the site ultimately the clarker works will have probably a far
01:22:29 clarker works will have probably a far greater understanding of that project than anyone else it it it'd be on-site and he would act have access to all all the contractor meetings
01:22:40 meetings so if there's issues being raised between contractor and subcontractor or challenges with how they're to do the work he'd have a good understanding of it and he could feed that back up the chain um if
01:22:51 feed that back up the chain um if building control we're inspecting they may not they may not be because it's an approved
01:22:56 approved set of drawings therefore building control may not have ever attended site so so for me
01:23:07 so for me the clerk of works has huge exposure to the site and what's going on at any given time throughout that project
01:23:16 project and it sounds to me as though you're describing a person who is acting as the representative of the architect
01:23:24 architect who is himself responsible for the design
01:23:28 design and oversight of the construction work by a contractor who is simply there to build build yes all right thank you yes and now what about a site inspector so a site
01:23:39 about a site inspector so a site site inspector as we've said is i i've only my experience in in dealing with site inspection is only with design and build contracts
01:23:50 with design and build contracts so i've never dealt with it i know others within the business have worked and and we've got clerker works have worked as the traditional clerk work so they're the best place
01:24:01 clerk work so they're the best place we're not as we said earlier the designer build contract the client has passed all that responsibility over to the principal contractor for a set price i want xyz and you design it
01:24:16 i want xyz and you design it you get the experts in who need to design it
01:24:21 design it and you obtain that approval and you build it
01:24:25 build it and you give me that top quality product at the end with fully compliant and set
01:24:34 now the site inspector hasn't been involved i mean you can use this probably a great example of it started in 2012 we didn't get on the site until 2015. so there's a hell of a lot of work that's been done
01:24:46 hell of a lot of work that's been done before then and we're not involved in we don't have that information we do not understand what's going on we've been asked to enter the project at a specific time
01:24:58 to enter the project at a specific time to have a look at what's going on site and you don't have that exposure because you're there the client could have said come in once a month
01:25:07 you'd only pick up what you would see on that that one day and there's probably a lot of things that you need to to pick up in that one day does that does that help yeah that's very helpful
01:25:18 does that help yeah that's very helpful ms grogan
01:25:19 ms grogan and sorry i interrupted your questioning but i thought it'd be helpful certainly for me and as others just to understand these labels that are being attached by people to different roles well yes mr chairman that was in
01:25:31 roles well yes mr chairman that was in fact going to be my next question but i'll skip over it um can you account for why it is that the duties set out in the invitation to tender for this project are more
01:25:43 to tender for this project are more extensive than the site supervisor rule that you've in fact described just now
01:25:49 say that again sorry can you explain why it is so we we looked at the invitation to tender and the list of duties of a clock of works
01:25:56 works and your evidence was that's a pretty standard description of a clerk of works or site inspector yeah or a site inspector you've described a more limited role of a site inspector to the chairman um and my sister found
01:26:08 to the chairman um and my sister found just now
01:26:10 just now can you explain why it is that what john ryan partners actually did on site seems to be more limited than those duties set out in the it you can only pick up
01:26:24 in the it you can only pick up based on the requirement of what of what your role is that makes sense if you want to do you want to pull up the
01:26:34 the the scope again so that's um jrp 6011 page four
01:26:53 [Music]
01:26:57 and we've been looking at the second half of the page there under the head under the sentence the duties of the clerk of workshop comprise but not be limited to
01:27:07 so can you repeat the question again now please um
01:27:12 can you explain why the role of site inspector that you've described and what we know john white was actually doing on site seems to be less extensive than
01:27:25 seems to be less extensive than this list of duties here
01:27:30 see i i think it's it's the same in in terms of it's a limited role so you apply the
01:27:38 you know look at the first one it says by daily signing in and out of sight he's not there daily for a start so you've got to apply the limit this is a generic
01:27:49 apply the limit this is a generic generic document have access to the drawings and specification
01:27:54 we've got we've got access to the drawings and specification and we use them
01:27:58 them to walk around you may not carry 300 drawings
01:28:02 drawings with you as you walk around site so if you have a general understanding of what the works are and then if you spot an issue you you raise it
01:28:10 raise it so when you when you start looking looking at that and you understand what the site inspector is there to do
01:28:20 then it makes sense
01:28:24 if we could go now to met three zeros two three six nine nine one
01:28:33 and just before we look at this document as it's loading um can i ask you did you ever make it clear to the tmo what limitations you thought applied to this rule
01:28:47 no i i think they know what the limitations are because of how they've set
01:28:50 set their their brief for example for example
01:28:58 you look at that first part of the table where it says two to three days to assess
01:29:02 assess the drawings and specs for an eight and a half million pound job you know uh two to three days and and it includes pre-start meetings so if
01:29:13 includes pre-start meetings so if john tony and luis had been to a pre-start meeting in september that's one and a half days taken out of that which leaves another day and a half so
01:29:25 i think it's a question for the tmo ultimately as to what they thought but when you look at that document and what they
01:29:32 they have put down there a familiarization of the drawings is the general one for a site inspector to hit the ground running
01:29:43 this is tony batty's witness statement and given to the police you see at the very bottom of the page he starts explaining what his role is so he says
01:29:54 he says my role is clerk of works and what that means is that when a job comes up i'll check the drawings and onto page two make sure that bit has been installed as per the drawings even if we have designed the mechanical and
01:30:06 if we have designed the mechanical and electrical installation ourselves if there is a fault with the drawings i will identify it highlighting what the fault is
01:30:12 fault is i will check the whole thing for quality all the way through right down to when they do the commissioning and make sure that it's working right i do that on loads of different projects such as health residential schools um having conducted the inspections of
01:30:25 um having conducted the inspections of mechanical and electrical design and installation i would report back my findings to the client can you account for why tony batty seems to have thought his role involved checking the installation against the
01:30:36 checking the installation against the drawings
01:30:37 drawings and for faults with the drawings well let's go back to the brief they've asked for a
01:30:45 for a mechanical electrical clerk works and if you look at the brief they also appointed max fordham as a technical advisor
01:30:53 advisor so that or and we've got a general building clerk work so that's a specific skill set
01:31:01 skill set where they he's looking at things in that manner and i think the package there was quite it was not as onerous
01:31:12 as the overall building package now can you start again with your question i think i've just answered a bit of it and i've lost train of thought on the second part well i i was just asking you
01:31:24 part well i i was just asking you why it appears that tony batty thought his role was different the role you've described john white is undertaking i think you have answered that okay did you ever have a discussion with
01:31:38 okay did you ever have a discussion with tony batty about um what he was required to do on the project or did you leave that up to him to work it out no they they all went to the same same meeting i wanted them all there
01:31:50 same meeting i wanted them all there to understand exactly what the brief is from the client if we go now to your bid to the tmo which is
01:32:01 which is jrp 50295
01:32:08 and we go to page three
01:32:14 um you refer to both john white and anthony batty there at the bottom as clark of works if they weren't performing the clerk of
01:32:26 if they weren't performing the clerk of works rule why did you describe them in that way in the tender because a document asked for a clarkerworks skill set to deliver site inspection and monitoring services
01:32:40 monitoring services on page 12 of this document
01:32:46 um you give case studies of projects in response to question three of the invitation to tender question three is there at the top and says please provide details of three contracts or projects which you consider
01:32:57 contracts or projects which you consider demonstrate comparable requirements to those of this contract
01:33:02 example one
01:33:05 under the heading details of what clerk of work services provided you say we provided dedicated site-based experience clerk of works who established benchmarking live quality samples robust inspection
01:33:17 live quality samples robust inspection snagging regime i've reported on progress and supported hfa sean
01:33:22 hfa sean hfh on resident liaison um that was a sight-based clerk of works rule wasn't it yes so that was someone on site every day
01:33:34 day case study two is that right everybody yes sorry
01:33:38 yes sorry you do need to say yes or no um case study two the second list of bullet points there again it says we provided a multi-disciplinary service single point
01:33:49 multi-disciplinary service single point responsibility for the following clock of works contract administration project management and the list goes on was that also a site-based clerk of works role
01:34:03 i can't remember now uh and if we go on to page 13 as case study 3 um again that appears to be
01:34:15 um again that appears to be a clerk of works rule rather than the site
01:34:18 site inspector rule do you agree
01:34:23 let me just read the project again
01:34:30 no this is slightly slightly different this is where a project um not not one of us where they um had i think over 4 000
01:34:43 where they um had i think over 4 000 defects and i think it may have been a it was a jct formal contract and we were asked to go in says the independent certifier so if you can scroll down a bit
01:34:58 and this this was two phase the first phase was to identify what the defects were
01:35:03 were and the second phase was to recall the contractor to rectify their issues and they were to provide the design and to ensure its
01:35:15 to provide the design and to ensure its compliance we were monitoring that the work was completed and i think we were on site full time because they had to do the work and then close up
01:35:26 close up so we had to monitor that it was done the sign-off and compliance of the specific products were by the contractor so we were monitoring that it was being completed
01:35:37 monitoring that it was being completed that makes sense so the first two case studies at least were for that more traditional clerk of works rule that you've described um as you had interpreted this contract
01:35:49 um as you had interpreted this contract as being for the more limited site supervisor role why did you give those examples if you go back to one and two and something i said at the start it was working on live sites properties are an occupation
01:36:03 live sites properties are an occupation and that covered the bandwidth because the clerk of works would have had the experience of working in those environments
01:36:13 the bid itself doesn't make any distinction between the traditional clerk of works rule and the site supervisor monitoring role why did you not explain that in the bid
01:36:25 why did you not explain that in the bid well i think it it does if you if you look at the brief again a traditional clerk works in my mind would have would have been on site 24 or you say five days a week and here
01:36:38 24 or you say five days a week and here we've been specif we've been specifically requested to attend on a on a one day a week basis to
01:36:48 to provide a report as per the requirements the client's request could we go to tm01306200 and page two please
01:37:00 i'm sorry if we could go back to page one um
01:37:03 one um so this is the uh tmo's letter dated 12th of june 2014 confirming john ryan partners appointment and it's addressed to you there
01:37:14 it informs you that your tender has been successful and refers to jrp providing um a general building clock of works when you saw that letter did you think to clarify that it was not
01:37:27 did you think to clarify that it was not a traditional clerk of works rule or did you think that was understood sorry i haven't seen this for six years so it's page two where it
01:37:38 six years so it's page two where it refers to clerk of works
01:37:50 yeah yeah if you if you go back again you look at it if you go back to page one sorry
01:38:00 the type the the reference is site monitoring and supervision services so again i would read that as clarke works providing site monitoring supervision services
01:38:11 supervision services this is a this is a debate which rages on with clients site inspectors clark works and has been going on for since i've been involved in in this type
01:38:22 since i've been involved in in this type of work
01:38:23 of work it comes up probably every couple of weeks
01:38:28 weeks as to whether you should say site inspector clark works and after about 10 years you get a bit fed up of trying to point out what the issue what the you know the title the job title is every
01:38:39 every every time so when i when i read that and i read the brief i'm clear in my mind and certainly those who have prepared the bid should be clear in mind in their mind
01:38:51 should be clear in mind in their mind that they've asked for a clerk of work to provide site monitoring and supervision services why did you not make it crystal clear to the tmo
01:39:01 the tmo in writing that that is what you thought that this project would entail i read this and it's crystal clear
01:39:12 this and it's crystal clear do you agree that by referring to john white and tony batty's clerk's works in correspondence and by them issuing reports entitled clerk of works reports
01:39:21 reports that others may have understood their role to be a more traditional clerk of works rule
01:39:30 not i couldn't answer for them really
01:39:42 um you've said i think in your evidence that a meeting took place between claire williams
01:39:46 williams john white tony batty and louis zoroa how was the what happened at that meeting reported back to you
01:39:56 i i think i'd seen that email probably a week or
01:40:00 week or two later at the time i definitely would have
01:40:03 have read it because i would have asked luis what what are the specific terms of our engagement here what has what has kctml asked us to do so we're clear and we've we've been
01:40:14 so we're clear and we've we've been through that email with um john white i don't think we need to go back to it i mean from my perspective if if that was wrong what we were asked to do
01:40:26 that was wrong what we were asked to do then i'm sure casey tmo would have fed back to us said sorry that's not what you asked you to do
01:40:37 to do mr chairman i'm about to move on to a new topic
01:40:41 new topic um i have only a few more pages to go um so i'm in your hands as to whether we break now for a short time or whether i continue for another 10 minutes say do you think you can
01:40:52 you think you can finish in 10 minutes
01:40:57 i think it's probably a little bit longer than that actually um we're going to need a break at the end of your questions anyway we will yes um mr eddie we have a break during the middle of the morning and normally we would take it about now
01:41:09 would take it about now but um when council's finished asking the questions that uh she thinks she needs to put you we always have a a break at that point to enable her to
01:41:20 a break at that point to enable her to take stock and maybe field questions from other people who aren't in the room and it might be more sensible if we were to try and finish council's questioning and then take both breaks at the same
01:41:32 and then take both breaks at the same time if you see what i mean when would that be all right and i think that's what we'll do um but probably a quarter now i might do it
01:41:41 it yes i think close eye on the time take your end time yes don't feel russian yes if i feel like it's not going to be done i'll let you know well in 15 minutes yes all right um
01:41:52 well in 15 minutes yes all right um so moving now on to the topic of building control uh you've said in your statement
01:41:57 statement and the reference to the transcript is um jrp
01:42:02 um jrp 50333 page 10 that jrp had no contact with building control grp's employee john white may have had some limited contact but not in a formal
01:42:13 some limited contact but not in a formal capacity
01:42:14 capacity what do you mean not in a formal capacity
01:42:18 i think he informally saw him on site and had a conversation with him who told you that
01:42:29 told you that that was by my investigations i was asked a set of questions by the inquiry to answer some questions so i made some inquiries and that's what i found out so it's not something you're aware of at
01:42:40 so it's not something you're aware of at the time it's something you found out later
01:42:42 later yeah and in your view is that sufficient um to check that building control we're checking just to come across them informally on site say
01:42:55 come across them informally on site say that again sorry so in your view is the contact that jo that john white had with building control sufficient to check that building control were
01:43:06 to check that building control were checking for compliance yeah from from my experience on the site inspection role and certainly over the last 16 16 years uh you in this
01:43:19 16 16 years uh you in this in in this particular form of contract you would check the logs
01:43:26 logs of building control rather than have direct
01:43:29 direct conversations with them because that link isn't isn't there between the two of us
01:43:34 of us that link is between the principal contractor and building control and so the the quality of information that you would have depends entirely on the quality of record keeping
01:43:46 the quality of record keeping of the main contractor yeah on what's on site yes at paragraph 27 of your statement
01:43:54 statement um you said to the best of my knowledge we that's jrp were never supplied with any drawings and had very limited specifications i certainly was not provided with these personally um as a manager would you expect to be
01:44:08 um as a manager would you expect to be provided with those documents personally on a job i'm yet to work on a project where
01:44:13 where they have successfully managed to have a full set of drawings on any online cloud-based storage facility you tend to find that
01:44:24 you tend to find that and this is from experience i'm talking in the generic you you may have some of the drawings on there you may not have everything i i think also the fact that you're
01:44:36 i i think also the fact that you're working on a dnb contract some of the drawings can be fluid
01:44:41 fluid they might not be there they might be still being worked on your best best chance of getting the mo and it's also worth pointing out it's only as good as those who are uploading the information on the on on the cloud so if they haven't got
01:44:54 on on the cloud so if they haven't got that on there then you have to rely on what's on site could you answer my question though which is
01:45:00 which is as the manager um you wouldn't be expected to be provided with those drugs personally would you you would hope to be expected that they they would be provided yes to you personally not to me
01:45:11 provided yes to you personally not to me no
01:45:12 no no so what you've said in your statement there i certainly was not provided with these personally that doesn't really matter does it no um how do you know that on this project john ryan partners
01:45:23 that on this project john ryan partners were not provided with drawings
01:45:26 how do i know i don't know you put it in your statement who told you that
01:45:34 if you go to your question what was the question my question i think your question would have prompted me to to find out so it's as a result of checking john ryan partners records
01:45:45 checking john ryan partners records yeah yeah um so were you aware at the time that there was any issue with drawings or specifications not being provided
01:45:53 provided i wasn't aware of it being an issue at the time and nor would i as i've just said earlier it's a challenge on pretty much every job that you work on so in his statement to the
01:46:04 work on so in his statement to the inquiry and in oral evidence um mr white has said that he was able to view drawings on in the site office um and he told us on thursday there was never an occasion
01:46:15 thursday there was never an occasion when he asked to see a drawing and was not provided with it um do you agree then that what you said in your statements not quite accurate no sorry can you explain what you mean by not
01:46:26 can you explain what you mean by not accurate well you say jrp were never supplied with drawings and had very limited specifications mr white says he was able to see everything he needed to see on site yeah yeah what i'm saying there is
01:46:38 yeah yeah what i'm saying there is that i wasn't sent any drawings
01:46:43 they would have been on site so i'm agreeing i think i'm a group no no i'm not green they would have been on site and that's where you would have looked at them what i'm saying is if a link had been sent
01:46:54 sent and didn't work i wouldn't be concerned about that because the drawings that you'd really need to get hold of would be on site well this passage of your witness statement gives the impression that
01:47:05 statement gives the impression that that was a problem that you never had drawings or access to the specifications yes we'll pull it up it's yeah um jrp five zeros 330 page seven paragraph 27
01:47:23 paragraph 27 to the best of my knowledge
01:47:32 so the question asked by the inquiry is what access did you have after this time i wouldn't have had any access as i wouldn't have seen
01:47:44 but you've answered the question on behalf of john ryan partners we were never supplied with any drawings and based on john white's evidence i'm asking you whether you wish to correct that now
01:48:05 that now i'm trying to just have a bit of difficulty trying to understand what you're
01:48:08 you're you're asking so are you are you saying that the drawings were on site and they had access to the drawings
01:48:19 drawings that is what mr white said that he had access to everything he needed on site he had access to drawings on site if he needed to refer to so that would make sense
01:48:33 i think we've got the picture we do um you didn't get a set advice i didn't person no one sent a set of drawings either in physical copy or by a link to you or
01:48:44 you or i think mr white but when he wanted to see a drawing on site he was able to get it yeah okay that makes sense
01:48:53 moving on to a new topic which is um the price for the works if we go back to your bid jrp 50295 page 25.
01:49:08 and now you were asked to bid for and you have in fact bid here for 70 days per clock of works on site do you see that in the books there
01:49:23 yes so 70 days each um and you've given a rate there that's a total of 140 days isn't it
01:49:29 isn't it it is yeah and if we could now go to jrp
01:49:35 50332 page 2. now this is the email um that you think you saw
01:49:45 you saw a little later dated the 18th of september from claire williams to louis zarrowa
01:49:51 where she summarizes um the meeting and her instructions and in that first paragraph
01:50:00 paragraph um about halfway down she says i said that i would like to skew the number day the number of days potentially for each clerk of works which was originally
01:50:12 clerk of works which was originally proposed as 40 days each and even fat bid for many more days than that
01:50:18 that um were you aware at the time that the requirement from the client had been reduced i i that would have come up in the tbms i had
01:50:29 had task-based management reviews one-to-ones i would have had with luis on a resourcing side of things as to who's doing what do you know why the time was reduced
01:50:42 i can only assume
01:50:46 and what do you assume
01:50:50 my understanding of that would be so if it's skewed for m e and less for building work is that the m e
01:50:57 the m e took precedence at that time i mean the overall time so it's reducing the reduced to 40. 140 to 40.
01:51:04 to 40. 140 to 80. 140 to 80. um well again it comes down to what we said at the start i i could have read that to be come in
01:51:15 i i could have read that to be come in one day a month at that time because it's ultimately up to the client how they wish to use that resource
01:51:23 resource so in my mind at that time i thought okay if it's gone from 70 to 40
01:51:29 maybe they don't maybe they're comfortable with what they're getting from the principal contractor or it might be a budgetary issue did you think that 40 hours each
01:51:40 issue did you think that 40 hours each 40 days four sorry 40 days each um was sufficient to carry out um the duties required of the two clocks of works in terms of what they were asked to do
01:51:52 in terms of their their reports and what they were asked to do that's not uncommon
01:52:00 moving on now to my final topic um if we could go please to met three zeros four five two six seven
01:52:59 that not coming up um
01:53:03 can we try um
01:53:08 four five six two seven
01:53:15 yes that's the one that's right
01:53:19 so this is an email from you dated the 14th of june 2017 at 9 39 to jrp all staff and you say dear all you may have seen the news of the tragic fire at grenfell
01:53:31 the news of the tragic fire at grenfell tower and i trust that the emergency services are doing all they can to save as many residents as possible it may be worth noting that we did have some involvement on the refurbishment works that took place at the tower albeit a site inspectors
01:53:43 albeit a site inspectors with design and project management responsibilities resting with others um and then you go on um to say you've spoken with the team and then the next paragraph from having
01:53:54 and then the next paragraph from having seen the footage it appears that the external cladding slash insulation has accelerated the spread of flame which has then made its way back into the building i suspect that once all the investigations have taken place we may
01:54:05 investigations have taken place we may see a change in building regulations and how buildings are over clad um had you been told anything by john white prior to this about what materials were used in the cladding
01:54:20 no having observed the rapid spread of flame up the tower did you draw any conclusions about what materials may have been used
01:54:29 no did you have given that so far as you knew building control had checked the cladding and pasta is compliant with the building regulations were you surprised to see the cladding
01:54:41 were you surprised to see the cladding behave that way in the fire yes what was it about the building regulations that you thought would need to change
01:54:52 i mean when you i remember seeing the footage and i felt that there would be an issue with building regs and how
01:55:03 how projects would be run going forward because there would all obviously be an investigation into such things
01:55:11 things so my my feeling at the time was that we'll see something coming out of this
01:55:19 this so did you draw the conclusion that it was likely to be a failure of regulation rather than a failure of design
01:55:26 i mean i can only talk about what i know more of now and i i think there's a lot of confusing things out there in the market and it needs to be
01:55:37 needs to be cleared up the the the more simple things do not have to be complicated they can be very simple if there's simple instructions for
01:55:48 there's simple instructions for everybody to follow and that's i think everything has got a little bit complicated as to how things work
01:55:54 work from procurement to responsibility to regulations the whole the holes off if we could go now to
01:56:03 now to met three zeros four five six three four
01:56:16 and if we go to the email from sean tobin at the bottom 15th of june 2017 at 807 a.m
01:56:23 807 a.m um he's emailing john white but you're also on the address list he says john peter madison um property services director at kctmo contacted me very late last night 11 p.m and has requested jrp's
01:56:35 11 p.m and has requested jrp's assistance and support in gathering as much intelligence on the refurbishment project at grenfell tower a couple of years back where we were si slash cow on the project
01:56:46 si slash cow on the project he then goes on to list um the information sort by kctmo and if we go down to the next page of the email chain at the end he says if you would like an internal meeting between all of us on
01:56:57 internal meeting between all of us on this email please let us know and then we have to scroll back up again back to page one to see the reply
01:57:10 one to see the reply and there's a reply there from andrew crocher
01:57:14 crocher um he says that john is very busy and suggests that an admin person should collate the information and then a review should take place uh
01:57:25 and then a review should take place uh did that internal review take place sorry i
01:57:29 sorry i haven't seen this for
01:57:32 you so it's the last paragraph of that email
01:57:36 email then we can have a review maybe withdrawn assisting and providing additional background i've cc luis who needs to be aware of this as john line manager and also may have some additional knowledge input
01:57:47 additional knowledge input and did you conduct an internal review
01:57:55 i can't actually remember we would have sat down to discuss
01:58:06 to discuss i i think first and foremost i think i remember john was was in a bad way um and then we we sat down with luis to to talk about the
01:58:17 sat down with luis to to talk about the project
01:58:19 project and i think the files would have been would have been there so i don't i don't know whether a full review would have been carried out
01:58:27 i can't remember to be honest i can't recall do you recall shortly after the fire discussing what grp's role was on the project
01:58:39 i remember looking back at the brief yes and when you looked at the brief uh was that consistent with your understanding of what had actually been
01:58:50 understanding of what had actually been done on site yeah um if we look at the email just from the top um of this chain we'll see john white's response
01:58:58 response he says for further info um the that should be windows were replaced in upvc as part of the contract um did you understand from this that john white had concerns about the use of
01:59:10 john white had concerns about the use of upvc
01:59:13 no i think he was just saying that the windows i think you maybe someone may have asked the question and he's just giving us some further information did the use of upvc in the windows cause
01:59:24 did the use of upvc in the windows cause you any concern when you became aware of it
01:59:29 no thank you mr chairman those are all of my questions right well that would be a good time to have a break then wouldn't it mr valley we're going to have that break
01:59:40 mr valley we're going to have that break now um
01:59:42 now um we'll come back at five to twelve please okay
01:59:45 okay and i don't think you're going to have much chance to talk to anyone about your evidence
01:59:49 evidence while you're out of the room but if it does occur please don't take it all right thank you we'll see you in a minute you'd like to give the usher please thank you i think that she'll give you enough time
02:00:01 i think that she'll give you enough time to deal with anything that might have come from elsewhere yes all right thank you very much five to twelve please
02:03:46 [Music]
02:06:55 [Music]
02:11:46 [Applause]
02:16:58 yes would you ask mr you to come back in please
02:17:09 all right well now we'll see if there any more questions ms grogan did you find some questions i did just two short questions mr chairman uh first of all mr verdi uh what
02:17:20 first of all mr verdi uh what systems were in place um to supervise john white and ensure he carried out his job
02:17:25 job adequately so he would have had task-based management one-to-ones with luis
02:17:34 luis so whereby they would talk about all the projects that he's working on identifying the issues challenges and that would also include any challenges from his own workload
02:17:48 any challenges from his own workload perspective but also any challenges that he's having on site and then we would take it from there did you ever including after the fire come to be aware of any concerns about
02:18:00 come to be aware of any concerns about how john white performed on the grenfell project
02:18:04 project no never after nor during thank you very much thank you that's one of my questions good well mr vader those are all the questions we have for you
02:18:15 questions we have for you it just remains me to thank you very much for coming here to give your evidence this morning thank you very helpful to hear from you and now you're free to go thank you thank you very much
02:18:38 now we'll need to rise for a few minutes before the next witness comes in so that the
02:18:42 the usual cleaning arrangements can be undertaken yes that's right we've checked uh and we need ten minutes and then it will be mr mark osborne well what i can suggest is come and tell us as soon as you're ready
02:18:54 come and tell us as soon as you're ready that's the best thing yes thank you very much
02:23:13 [Music]
02:24:57 [Music]
02:25:14 [Applause]
02:28:19 [Music]
02:29:38 yes it's great good morning next our next witness is mr mark osborne please thank you all right would you ask mr osborne to come in please
02:30:00 i do solemnly sincerely and truthfully declare i affirm that the evidence shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr oswald would you
02:30:11 thank you very much mr oswald would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable please
02:30:28 right yes it's strange yes thank you thank you mr osborne thank you very much for coming and giving evidence today it's very much appreciated um i'm going to be asking you the questions today if you have any
02:30:39 questions today if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please either ask me to repeat the question
02:30:44 question or put the point in a different way and also
02:30:47 also can you please try and keep your voice up because the lady on your right is transcribing a transcript of everything we're saying and she needs to be able to hear you clearly so if you can keep your voice up
02:30:58 clearly so if you can keep your voice up that would be great now you've made two witness statements for the inquiry those appear in a folder in front of you and they're also going to appear on the screen in a moment if we can go to the
02:31:09 screen in a moment if we can go to the first
02:31:10 first this is osb 6087
02:31:15 so we can see there there's a date on it 27th
02:31:19 27th of september 2018 and if we also go to the final page there we have the the date again and is that your signature that is my signature have you read that statement
02:31:31 signature have you read that statement recently
02:31:32 recently i have and are the contents true they are thank you and then if we can bring up your second witness statement to the inquiry this is osb six zeros 90
02:31:44 and if we turn on to page 13 we can see that this second statement is dated the 27th of june 2019 and is that your signature there that is
02:31:55 and is that your signature there that is my signature great and have you read that statement recently i have and can you confirm that the contents are true the contents are true now osborne berry also provided a position statement to
02:32:06 also provided a position statement to the inquiry which you have referred to and expressly adopted in your second witness statement can we just bring that up that's at osb 7084
02:32:18 is that the position statement you're referring to it is thank you did you assist in the preparation of that position statement i did thank you and again are the
02:32:29 i did thank you and again are the contents of it true they are thank you and have you discussed your evidence before with anyone before coming here today no i haven't thank you so i just want to start with some
02:32:40 so i just want to start with some questions about your professional background and your training um and if we look at paragraph three of your first witness statement so that's osb six zeros 87
02:33:06 so um i think that's on page five actually of this statement and page yes under question three there you
02:33:17 yes under question three there you explained to us that prior to the incorporation of osborne berry you'd worked as a fitter carrying out work for harley for about 20 years
02:33:25 20 years do you see that there i do now did your work as a fitter involved the installation of building envelopes it did were you fitting anything else or was it always
02:33:36 anything else or was it always external features external only external only thank you and would that include
02:33:43 include items such as curtain walling rain screen cladding facades windows doors and structural glazing it would thank you now we know that osborne berry was incorporated in 2002 that's right isn't
02:33:55 incorporated in 2002 that's right isn't it
02:33:56 it that's correct yeah and so at the time of osborne berry's instruction by harley in 2014 on the grenfell tower refurbishment is it right that you had some 32 years experience
02:34:07 some 32 years experience in the installation of building envelopes i did thank you have you ever undertaken any formal training or qualifications in relation to installing building envelopes i haven't
02:34:22 so does that mean that effectively you learned on the job does that happen yes how it happened and did you start off as an apprentice somewhere and move up or i was an apprentice back in 73 for a company called wins windshields
02:34:35 73 for a company called wins windshields of worcester yeah and then i worked my way up i did a full apprenticeship worked my way up then to a fitter and then basically moved from company to company yeah until i got and set my own company up
02:34:46 company up great thank you have you undertaken any formal training or qualifications in relation to the installation of rain screen cladding facade specifically not at all no and what about any formal
02:34:59 not at all no and what about any formal training in respect of fire safety in terms of installation and fitting work only what i've been shown as i've gone along in the trade basically okay now
02:35:12 okay now if we look at page two of your first witness statement um and we look towards the bottom of the page
02:35:19 page you say that osborne berry have installed the same cladding in other buildings in london hounslow and little venice and you you make clear right at the very bottom you're asked
02:35:30 right at the very bottom you're asked these particular cladding panels and you give the the answer yes um and and just staying with this theme of other similar projects if we look at page one of your second
02:35:41 if we look at page one of your second witness statement that's osb 6090 you say at paragraph one a
02:35:51 you're asked about projects in which ozone very were engaged by harley facades
02:35:56 facades and you say this you say osborne berry was sub-contracted to work on five tower blocks in little venice one tower block in hounslow and a tower block and lower riser buildings in commercial road
02:36:09 lower riser buildings in commercial road um so you say that there were these buildings so we've got five tower blocks in little venice one in hounslow and and one in commercial road were they
02:36:21 and and one in commercial road were they residential non-residential or mixed-use buildings um
02:36:26 um i believe the commercial road was mixed yes but as for little venice that's five domestic tower blocks right yeah residence space so slowly residential
02:36:38 residence space so slowly residential yeah and where any of those buildings over 18 meters tall were they large high-rise buildings little then it's definitely 20 floors yeah and the other two what about
02:36:51 yeah and the other two what about um hanslow i only actually went up there to do the setting out details yeah on heights and grids i'm off the top of my memory i think it was
02:37:02 my memory i think it was 10 or 11 floors but i wouldn't guarantee that one okay but commercial road that
02:37:09 road that was probably 15 floors the tower block right yeah and is it correct that osborne berry installed acm aluminium composite material panels with a pe polyethylene
02:37:22 material panels with a pe polyethylene core
02:37:22 core at the south in sites in hounslow and little venice that's correct yeah so you did as a firm have previous
02:37:35 so you did as a firm have previous experience of installing acm um to a building over 18 meters in height prior to the grenfell project we did the only difference being is that the panels at these other two jobs were riveted on
02:37:47 at these other two jobs were riveted on panels
02:37:49 panels yes so there were rivets and not cassettes as we have we known or come to know them is that correct that's correct thank you was
02:38:00 thank you was osborne berry a member of any trade associations at the time it worked on the grenfell project no no thank you it helps if you say an answer rather than just nod or shake
02:38:11 answer rather than just nod or shake your head so we've got something on the transcript thank you and on the grenfell project yourself
02:38:16 yourself on the grenfell project did you carry out any installation work yourself or did you always leave that to fitters who were employed by osborne berry no i worked on it myself as well
02:38:28 no i worked on it myself as well so you weren't just supervising the installation of others you actually fitted it physically yourself yeah now um just a few questions about the preparation of your witness statements
02:38:40 preparation of your witness statements to the inquiry if we go and look at page five
02:38:44 five of your first witness statement that's osb6087
02:38:51 osb6087 and at paragraph one you explain there that osborne berry in the second line is a small company and you
02:38:59 you give a little bit more information about the company consists of two directors yourself
02:39:04 yourself and mr graham berry a secretary mr berry's wife and one employee employee who is employed as a fitter we've got that information there and you also explain that on occasions
02:39:16 and you also explain that on occasions the company subcontracts work and uses self-employed fitters to assist with its work that's right isn't it that is correct and is it correct that when you were working on site
02:39:28 working on site mr berry was known as bez and you were known as taf is that correct that is correct yeah now if we can look side by side at
02:39:39 now if we can look side by side at this part of your statement we might need to pan out so we can see paragraphs one
02:39:42 one three two three on this page five and we put that side by side with mr berry's first witness statement page 5 that's osb 6086
02:39:54 page 5 that's osb 6086 page 5.
02:40:00 now what we see here is very similar answers that are given to these first three questions um and in fact so the wording of
02:40:11 um and in fact so the wording of paragraphs one two and three are they're not totally identical but they're almost identical
02:40:17 identical um and looking at paragraph three of your own statement there on the left we can see in that first paragraph you say prior to the incorporation of osborne
02:40:28 prior to the incorporation of osborne berry i had worked as a fitter carrying out work for harley for about 20 years mr osborne was also working as a self-employed fitter for harley do you see that there i do so you've
02:40:39 do you see that there i do so you've referred to yourself in the third person in that part of your statement do you see that yes and if you look at paragraph one in fact on that same page in the
02:40:51 one in fact on that same page in the second substantive paragraph down you've said osborne berry undertakes work for private individuals companies and local authorities and then you say it provides the labor and fitters
02:41:02 and fitters and then in the brackets you say this includes mr osborne and myself do you see that there i do so again you've
02:41:09 you've talked about yourself in the third person
02:41:13 person and if we go to page one of your first witness statement now osb6087
02:41:25 and if we look in that very first paragraph underneath the date you say there i wish to adopt the comments made in osborne berry's position statement which details the extent of my involvement and that of my
02:41:36 extent of my involvement and that of my business partner director mr mark osborne so again you've referred to yourself in the third person there do you see that i do now
02:41:45 i do now would you agree with me that it looks like possibly some of this text might have been prepared for mr berry's statement and has gone into your statement do you see that i do see that but do you agree that in
02:41:59 i do see that but do you agree that in in large measure the two statements you've provided to the inquiry are very similar
02:42:04 similar i do agree with that can you help us as to how that came about and did you sit down and prepare your statements at the same time no we didn't prepare our statements at
02:42:15 no we didn't prepare our statements at the same time but we had talked about right different things did you discuss with each other what you were going to put in
02:42:23 put in the stage i don't recall in discussing with each other that now and did you check your own witness statement carefully before it was finalized did you did you have some input into the words that were used in it probably not
02:42:36 that were used in it probably not i'm not very good at paperwork i see so you've signed this witness statement and i think you confirmed at the beginning of your evidence you have read it and checked that it's
02:42:47 it and checked that it's true yeah but is it possible that at the time you first signed it you perhaps hadn't checked it as carefully as you should have done i would think that is probably very true okay thank you
02:43:00 when you had when you were preparing your statement or in the run-up to preparing it did you have any documentation with you to help you
02:43:08 you and remind you about what had happened on the project not at all does osborne very generally keep records of
02:43:16 of past projects in terms of documentation that
02:43:19 that you or the fitters would have been provided with no no i i would keep a diary whilst the job was in progress but those diaries wouldn't be kept after the job was finished basically
02:43:30 finished basically okay and what's done with those diaries do you destroy them they were destroyed yeah okay now in terms of how osborne berry came to be engaged
02:43:41 engaged on the on the refurbishment project is it your understanding that in about august 2014 mr ben bailey of harley contacted your company about whether it was interested in working on the project
02:43:54 was interested in working on the project i don't recall it being ben i think it was
02:43:58 was ray bailey ah okay for his father is it right sorry and he made a telephone conversation i believe yes to my business partner mr berry is that right yes so that was
02:44:09 mr berry is that right yes so that was my next question is it right that it was actually mr berry that took that first call that's correct with the inquiry for the project that's correct and mr berry you say in your statement that paragraph 2a we don't need to pull
02:44:21 that paragraph 2a we don't need to pull it up that mr berry told you that harley had asked osborne berry to fit windows and cladding to grenfell tower
02:44:28 tower did mr berry say anything to you at that stage about whether materials had been discussed for the project and what materials would be used we just knew it was a an ongoing job we didn't know exactly what was going to be
02:44:39 didn't know exactly what was going to be used now yeah
02:44:44 and then if we can turn up page five of your first witness statement um osb six series 87 page five and you say this is under paragraph three
02:44:57 and the last line of that first paragraph you say this osborne berry was one of the three preferred teams harley instructed osborne berry submitted a competitive
02:45:08 osborne berry submitted a competitive tender which was accepted by harley do you see that there i do now do you mean that there was a competitive tender for the grenfell project
02:45:18 project or are you talking about a tender more generally
02:45:21 generally to harley to be one of its preferred installation companies are you presume we would we put a tender in and harley would choose which one was the
02:45:33 would choose which one was the most viable one to use but i know other people tended for that job yeah and that's a tender specific to the grenfell tower project to the grenfell tower yeah and when you
02:45:44 to the grenfell tower yeah and when you say you know other people tended for that job how do you know that only from here right from talking to other contractors at the time correct yeah now
02:45:56 correct yeah now if we can turn up osb 7061
02:46:07 this is an email if we zoom in at the top the top email
02:46:13 this is an email from rob maxwell of harley
02:46:17 harley to osborne berry and it's dated the 24th of september 2014 and it says bears use this to price the project
02:46:28 bears use this to price the project kind regards rob maxwell do you see that there i do did you see that email at the time can you i didn't you didn't so was it mr berry dealing with this at this point mr barry
02:46:39 with this at this point mr barry was dealing with this at this stage does he always deal with the the initial he deals with the contract scope and the price he deals with the paperwork side of it because that's not my best
02:46:50 because that's not my best quality i'm afraid okay that's helpful um and what we see is at the very bottom of page three what was attached to this email in the
02:47:01 what was attached to this email in the very first bullet point there this e 3317 cost summary was a grenfell tower schedule of quantities now i'll show you in a minute but can
02:47:12 now i'll show you in a minute but can you recall whether you saw that documentation yes yeah you saw that now between um the first inquiry
02:47:24 now between um the first inquiry about the project in august 2014 and mr berry's receipt of this email on the 24th of september 2014 can you recall whether you had any other conversations around this time with harley
02:47:35 with harley about the proposed work at grenfell tower i can't remember any no yeah so let's just
02:47:47 turn up the cost summary
02:47:55 so it's osb 5-1 sorry
02:48:00 osb seven zeros five one
02:48:04 sorry yes so is this the what you were just referring to is the bill of quant the bill of quantities that's the billik ones yes yeah
02:48:17 ones yes yeah and i think what we see in this document is they've broken down the elements of the work and the particular products that would be installed
02:48:26 installed on the on the rain screen system and given you just the quantities involved is that correct that's correct and is that how you would normally end up pricing for a job by seeing a document like this
02:48:38 for a job by seeing a document like this exactly because somebody's already bought
02:48:42 bought this to this stage for us to actually go back through the drawings and work all this out ourselves would take so long yeah the job would be delayed yeah considerably
02:48:53 considerably yeah so this shortcuts that and just tells you the quantities correct and is this therefore what you understood that you would be installing
02:49:04 that is yes yeah yes and then just following this story through if we go to osb 7046
02:49:22 this is then an email from bears that's mr berry to mr maxwell of harley of the 29th of september 2014
02:49:34 harley of the 29th of september 2014 and it says we can see at the top there price for job 2052 252 465 pounds do you see that there i do
02:49:45 there i do and then he says any problems give me a ring and let me know asap if price is okay to carry on working thanks bears do you see that there i do so we can see
02:49:58 do you see that there i do so we can see here that mr berry is providing a lump sum
02:50:01 sum for the job do you know how that price was calculated on square meterage right per item on that
02:50:10 that i see so you look at the material and you know
02:50:13 you know you have an understanding of the complexity of installing that material do you
02:50:17 do you yes and then so you have a standard price per meter squared yes i see that you apply to that were you involved in assisting with the calculation of the
02:50:28 assisting with the calculation of the price for the job oh yes definitely yeah so what would your involvement basically sit down and talk to graham how long we thought
02:50:39 how long we thought it would take how much work would be involved
02:50:42 involved go through the meters prices and then just put the prices down on the quantities basically yeah and you've said that how long we thought it would take so does that mean that you would be
02:50:55 so does that mean that you would be proposing back to the to harley how long the jog would take as opposed to harley saying to you how long we would think it would take to do that particular item then we would know how much labor we
02:51:07 then we would know how much labor we would need to actually complete that item
02:51:10 item or the items i see and would you have been told by this time this the length of time the project was due to last i really cannot remember that right yeah
02:51:22 i really cannot remember that right yeah i would probably say yes but i wouldn't give you a guarantee yeah
02:51:29 and this prize for the job here that we see is that um what you've described in your statement as the submission of a competitive tender for the work that is correct yeah was there any other
02:51:42 that is correct yeah was there any other document which formed part of osborne berry's tender for example a method statement or other description of how you would go about the works not at the time we wouldn't receive
02:51:55 not at the time we wouldn't receive method statements till we actually got onto site and got the job basically right yeah and they would be site specific to various tasks which are on the actual building yeah
02:52:06 yeah i see so you wouldn't have supplied hardly with any other information for example about who might be carrying out the works the qualifications of those carrying it out nothing like that just the price just
02:52:18 nothing like that just the price just the price okay
02:52:23 so i now just want to ask you some questions about the information that was provided to osborne berry prior to commencing the installation works
02:52:34 so and if we can turn up page five of your second witness statement that's osb 6090 page five
02:52:45 and at paragraph seven c
02:52:49 so that's the second item down on that page
02:52:53 page you ask the question did the measurements taken by osborne berry correspond to the dimensions given on the plan's drawings given to osborne buried by harley and you say this osborne berry did not receive any
02:53:05 osborne berry did not receive any initial plans we were simply tasked to obtain measurements do you see that there yes can you just help us where you say osbornberry did not receive any initial plans
02:53:17 plans what do you mean by that what kind of initial plans might you have expected to receive
02:53:22 receive um
02:53:27 i don't really know what plans i would have expected to see all i remember seeing was actually pictures of the tower block on all elevations
02:53:38 elevations yeah positions where we were asked to measure from and to yes to give dimensions back to harley so they could manufacture the cladding and the windows to those positions i see so those when you say pictures
02:53:50 i see so those when you say pictures were those elevation drawings or elevation drawings yeah so they weren't photographs they were drawing no they were drawings yes but they didn't they didn't say what was going on the drawing it was just an elevation drawing of the building yeah
02:54:02 elevation drawing of the building yeah and harley pinpointed you where you
02:54:12 did you ask for any specific documentation drawings plans specifications relevant to the project before osborne berry started on site i would have thought so yes
02:54:23 would have thought so yes yeah i would have thought so but you can't help us as to whether in fact such documentation was received on this project i can't okay and i'm sorry
02:54:37 yes and and you talked for a moment there about being tasked to obtain measurements and i think you're referring there to a process you describe in your second statement this is paragraph seven
02:54:48 second statement this is paragraph seven page four we don't need to turn it up where
02:54:50 where early on you measured the gaps between windows the width and height in comparison with the concrete structure and also the center lines of the columns is that right that is correct
02:55:00 correct so you did that measurement exercise and discovered that some of the columns weren't plumb is that right that is correct yeah and then you pass that information back to harley so they had exact measurements on the tower is that right
02:55:11 the tower is that right that is correct yeah and you say that that
02:55:15 that job of measuring took two days can you recall roughly when you carried out that work we know you were first approached in august 2014 in relation to this project can you
02:55:26 in relation to this project can you recall how long after that you would have done that measurement work i don't okay to be truthful
02:55:35 now sticking with the topic of drawings and information provided to you um if we can look at osb 7027
02:55:48 this is a register of drawings don't worry i'm going to go to a better version of this in a moment but i just want to establish that this is a register of drawings it's a harley register of drawings and it's been
02:55:59 register of drawings and it's been disclosed to the inquiry by osborne berry um now the quality of this is quite poor so what we're going to do is take you to another better quality of it from ryden's disclosure so if we can
02:56:13 from ryden's disclosure so if we can bring up
02:56:15 ryd3056
02:56:24 56337
02:56:29 great thank you so this we believe is the
02:56:32 the an identical document um to the one from osborne berry's disclosure um did you see this harley drawing register
02:56:42 register during the time you worked on the project i cannot remember seeing it no would you normally expect to see a drawing register like this on such a project no i would leave that to the likes of
02:56:54 to the likes of rob maxwell to deal with and ben bailey the actual drawing register to make sure they all came and they then would hand them over to us i see and how would they hand them over to you
02:57:05 and how would they hand them over to you what was the process for that as the drawings were updated revision a revision b revision c yeah they would tell you to remove revision a yes revision b has taken over
02:57:17 revision a yes revision b has taken over and where would you actually be removing these from and replacing these did you have them in hard copy or electronically in hard copy in hard copy and where were they physically they were stored in our
02:57:28 physically they were stored in our container where we kept all our materials and all our tools so what you had a site cabin on the side we had a
02:57:35 we had a container on site yet yeah yes and you would keep copies of the drawings in that container is that right correct for all your operatives to see or just you and mr berry whoever needed to look at it was able to
02:57:46 whoever needed to look at it was able to look at it i see and so you expected that if there was a revision to a drawing that what you would be brought the replacement would be the replacement the old one would be destroyed
02:57:57 old one would be destroyed yeah and were you yourself actually involved in that process on the grenfell project i did i destroyed quite a lot of drawings yes yeah yes
02:58:11 and would you have looked at any of those drawings before you got to site or would you
02:58:15 would you look at them basically on the first day on site on the first day on site
02:58:26 and then if we just pick up on the same theme
02:58:30 theme looking at mr berry's witness statement to the police that he's provided this is
02:58:37 met3019985
02:58:43 this is a statement of mr berry to the met police it's dated we can see there in that box at the top it's dated the 21st of august 2017
02:58:54 21st of august 2017 and i just want to pick it up at the bottom of this page one and on to page two so this is where he's describing that measurement process that we were just discussing a moment ago
02:59:07 discussing a moment ago and he says four lines up the measurements were done by tape measure mark and rob stayed doing this for around a week is that you mark that's correct and rob
02:59:19 is that you mark that's correct and rob maxwell is that that would be rob thomas that's another one of our lead fitters thank you and then all the measurements were passed back to harley and then you say this around september sorry mr berry says this
02:59:30 berry says this around september october 2014 mark and chris beta attended the tower to drill preparatory holes in the building using handheld drills
02:59:40 drills and then if we go over to the top of the next page
02:59:43 next page it says this is this was for the windows and cladding to be fitted the entire height of the tower these were based on the plans that had been delivered to the site and were not done by ourselves do you
02:59:54 and were not done by ourselves do you see that there i do so when he's describing the plans that have been delivered to the site do you
03:00:04 is it your evidence that what he's describing there is what we were just referring to off that drawing register yes yep so it's the drawing register and it's held in the unit that osborne berry have at site yes yes
03:00:23 and was osborne berry given sufficient opportunity to review setting out drawings
03:00:28 drawings before commencing any of its preparatory work on site
03:00:34 when i leveled the building up i left marks on the building so that we could always refer back to those marks knowing full well what they meant yeah and we just followed those marks
03:00:46 yeah and we just followed those marks back to the drawings that have been prepared by harley and work back off those
03:00:50 those i see yeah
03:00:55 did osborne berry ever have any input into the preparation or finalization of any of the harley drawings including the detailed drawings for for example the fixings on the project
03:01:08 for example the fixings on the project none whatsoever none whatsoever
03:01:13 and did osborne berry ever produce any drawings or plans itself no during the course of its work so you were always working off the heart i'm always working on harley drawings thank you
03:01:26 now if we can turn to ryd3088923
03:01:38 these are minutes minutes of a meeting it's a subcontractor progress meeting and we can see there in the top left it's dated the 28th of april
03:01:49 28th of april 2015. and we can see that you're present at the meeting do you see the list of attendees present we've got simon o'connor from ryden other ryden operatives
03:02:01 other ryden operatives ben bailey of harley and then you for osborne berry and if we look on page two of these minutes
03:02:09 minutes at item 6.02
03:02:21 yes there we've got it says um bb so i think that's ben bailey to provide elevation drawings showing progress on a weekly basis tdo and we think that must be
03:02:33 think that must be daniel osgood of ryden i would assume so and then the item below that is 6.03 it says bb
03:02:43 says bb so ben bailey to issue elevations showing positions of all fire break on all elevations 2do that's daniel osgood
03:02:53 osgood now we're going to come back to to discuss in detail fire breaks and cavity barriers um but just
03:03:01 just in terms of the information you were provided with do you know whether mr bailey or mr osgood ever showed you elevation drawings of the tower showing the positioning of the fire
03:03:13 showing the positioning of the fire breaks
03:03:15 breaks i had a drawing of the tower yeah where the fire breaks were marked in red pen
03:03:22 to confirm where they had to go yeah to make sure the carpet mentalizing of the building was complete basically yes and you say you had a drawing and
03:03:34 yes and you say you had a drawing and it was in red pen showing where the identifying where they what areas they're going to be put in so had somebody with a pen physically annotated yes
03:03:45 with a pen physically annotated yes on that drawing yes so the red pen was for fire breaks yeah and the red pen was not there originally on the drawing it was something that somebody put on the drawing afterwards as far as i can
03:03:56 the drawing afterwards as far as i can remember yes yes and do you know who put that red pen on the drawing i do not you don't no i was just provided with the drawing so does that mean that you didn't
03:04:07 so does that mean that you didn't actually ever see elevation drawings with the cavity barriers shown on the elevation in in
03:04:15 in in drawing form i probably did to be honest most definitely but is your evidence that what you were working off on a day-to-day basis that you were working off the one with the red pen
03:04:26 off the one with the red pen working off the one with the red pen and then
03:04:29 then before that we did it because of um
03:04:34 we had a problem where the fire break went in respect to we had to put an epdm to seal the angle brackets yes to stop water leaking down and into the flats yes you couldn't penetrate the epdm
03:04:48 yes you couldn't penetrate the epdm yes with the fire break or the insulation so the epdm was put on and then the fire break was moved upwards to allow fitting of the fire break and fitting of the insulation
03:05:03 and when you say that firebreak was moved upwards to allow the fitting of the fire break and fitting of the insulation do you mean
03:05:12 mean is this on the columns we're talking about this is this is on the horizontal yeah so we did a sample panel for everybody to come and look at yeah and then they agreed that that was they were happy with that
03:05:23 they were happy with that and that's where we proceeded from there that's where the fire breaks were set up from basically does that mean that the positioning of the horizontal cavity barriers on the tower was slightly
03:05:34 barriers on the tower was slightly higher rose up yes from the position that had originally been shown in the harley drawings yes that's really helpful because i was going to take you and i'll still take it to it to a photograph where we think we
03:05:45 to it to a photograph where we think we see
03:05:46 see cavity barriers higher than in the drawings
03:05:50 drawings and you're confirming that that was a specific change that was agreed on sites and who did you have those discussions with about raising up the cavity barrier
03:06:02 it was either kevin lam or daniel atkin jones
03:06:09 and can you recall roughly when i mean how far through the very early on in the project
03:06:16 then a sample panel was completed i believe
03:06:21 believe i was on the mass climber at the time graham was on the mass climber and several other people probably eight or ten people all came up to have a look at what we had done and then that was
03:06:33 at what we had done and then that was agreed that that's where it would be and that's where we work from basically yeah and can you help me with this
03:06:39 this can you recall roughly by how much you raise that cavity barrier
03:06:47 not a great deal measurement wise i can tell you but it wasn't a great deal it was just enough to get a fixing in so that we could hold the insulation in place on the wall without perforating the barrier below it could
03:06:59 perforating the barrier below it could it have gone up by as much of it as a foot
03:07:01 foot i wouldn't have thought so i would thought more like a hundred mil a hundred mil yeah so ten centimeters yeah
03:07:14 and in approximately how far from the head of the window was that cavity barrier then roughly i really can't remember okay
03:07:27 roughly i really can't remember okay i'm going to come to some photographs which might help us with this in a little bit um now looking at page six of your second witness statement if we can go to that osb six zeros 90 at
03:07:40 if we can go to that osb six zeros 90 at page six
03:07:41 page six paragraph nine a in the top half of the page
03:07:49 so the enquiries asked there whether harley provided osborne berry with a method statement for the in installation work who provided it when was it provided
03:08:00 was it provided et cetera and you've said that um you cannot remember does that remain your evidence that you can't remember whether there was a method statement i had various method statements for various parts of the work
03:08:11 parts of the work yeah basically i can't remember if it was just for insulation or cladding or but there was method statements going around yeah well let's try and help provide
03:08:20 provide ben provided those that that's ben bailey of high daily of harley thank you yeah let's try and help with that let's look at um har3010913
03:08:42 so this is a method statement it's a harley method statement and the activity it's dealing with is specified at the top there it says installation of cladding system
03:08:53 installation of cladding system and we can see at the very bottom of page one that this appears to have been issued on the 5th of january 2015 can you see the date there
03:09:07 and you're listed at the top of that page is the site foreman we see that there mark osborne yes and
03:09:13 yes and ben bailey is there as the site supervisor now does this help as to whether you saw method statements like this on the project i don't remember that particular method statement no
03:09:25 particular method statement no okay but i did see method statements telling me how things should be fitted okay
03:09:31 okay if we could go on page two there's a section headed sequence at the bottom half of that page or bottom third of that page can you see there there's a a small
03:09:45 can you see there there's a a small subheading underline sequence i do and what we get is a number of stages that are numbered in this method statement
03:09:55 statement that seem to be the the step-by-step stages to be followed in terms of installing the cladding um from putting in supporting timber
03:10:06 um from putting in supporting timber frame brackets to setting out the drilling of holes item two timbers installed on the center lines etc item three and then if we keep going
03:10:18 etc item three and then if we keep going over the page
03:10:22 to page three and we look at the top of that
03:10:29 yeah then we've got five the different color panels then lifted and by a scaffold by two operatives and held in place
03:10:36 in place now just looking at that that sequence can you help us as to whether the actual method of fixing the cladding did comply with that sequence not at all
03:10:47 did comply with that sequence not at all for one there's no timber runners on the building yeah and for two the panels were fitted way way down the line compared to when the insulation and fire break
03:10:58 the insulation and fire break was fitted do you mean that there was a big time gap between when the most definitely when the insulation was fitted in the and the cavity barriers were fitted and then a break
03:11:10 a break to then when the cladding panels were fitted correct yeah
03:11:17 let's turn to another of these method statements um this is ryd3044095
03:11:35 and if we look at this method it's another harley method statement and the activity here is said to be installing column cladding as opposed to the activity previously
03:11:48 was
03:11:52 let me just uh remind myself
03:12:01 yes previously the activity was installation of cladding system this one seems to be more specific it says installing column cladding can you help us as to whether you saw
03:12:14 can you help us as to whether you saw this method statement just to help it's actually dated a bit later it's the 22nd of june 2015. we see that on the bottom left of this if we can just check check
03:12:26 left of this if we can just check check the date
03:12:27 the date the bottom left of this method i've got that yeah
03:12:32 that yeah and i think you just said you do recall seeing this one is that right i do
03:12:38 again you were listed as the site foreman um there and if we turn to page two
03:12:45 under the heading sequence at the bottom of that page
03:12:52 we get a different numbered list it's a numbered list that's much longer it goes on onto the next page i can show you that in a moment and we can see again stage by stage what
03:13:03 and we can see again stage by stage what should happen in terms of the sequence of the
03:13:05 of the column cladding loading the mass climber with the rails and brackets raising the mass climber to working level inserting bolts and then lowering the mass climate three
03:13:17 and then lowering the mass climate three using the setting out
03:13:21 and raising the lower cladding channel to correct level number five installing two pairs of brackets onto the pre-installed fixing stud six repeating this process up the
03:13:32 six repeating this process up the building until the top floor is reached and then if we go over the page
03:13:41 once the rails have been installed this is item seven operatives travel down the building and install the intermediate brackets
03:13:48 brackets then eight operatives will then remove the bottom m10 dead fixing and then nine when all the brackets have been installed on the cladding rails
03:14:00 been installed on the cladding rails operatives will install the vertical fire brakes in the same position as the internal party walls making sure that the joints are butted tightly together in the joints tape with adhesive backed foil
03:14:11 adhesive backed foil naught tape and then at 10 after that operatives will then fit the 100 millimeter thick insulation around the brackets
03:14:23 around the brackets and firebreaks taping joints with a class naught adhesive foil tape where necessary
03:14:28 necessary and then when the cladding channels fire breaks and insulation have been fitted operatives will install the hook on panels and secure with a hidden self-drilling screw that is correct
03:14:41 self-drilling screw that is correct you see that there now i've taken you through that that slowly because we just want to check is was that the method that you actually followed on site for installing the the column cladding
03:14:53 cladding the column cladding yes but there were pieces left out of it for the tie legs of the mouse climbers yeah
03:15:00 yeah because ryden's in their infancy decided to put the mass kind of legs onto the columns not onto the flat panels right so that one or two of these would
03:15:11 right so that one or two of these would have been left out going up the building wherever a mass climber leg attached to the building so you had gaps that you had to then go back and refill that and were you going back to fill those gaps
03:15:22 to fill those gaps when all the rest of it had got to the final stage correct right and the mass climbers were being struck to come down the building basically so the mass climbers would be loose when you were actually fitting those panels i
03:15:33 you were actually fitting those panels i see so for those areas you did it all in one go did it exactly yeah thank you that's helpful um and can you recall you say you think
03:15:44 um and can you recall you say you think you saw this method statement would you have been provided that in hard copy or electronically i would presume no immediate would be in hard copy yeah and again with that i do remember this one this is one of ben's definitely
03:15:55 one this is one of ben's definitely yeah and would that be kept in your site cabinet cabin yeah
03:16:04 was any part of the installation process left to osborne berry to determine in practice
03:16:11 practice no no no not at all it was all strictly regulated by harley instructions was it yes and
03:16:20 yes and was any part of it in fact undertaken based on past experience of other sites did you have experience of fitting these panels or fire breaks or the insulation
03:16:33 panels or fire breaks or the insulation on other sites and did any of that knowledge that you'd acquired on other projects directly carry through to how you did it on this project i would think it did yes yeah but can you think of any specific
03:16:45 yeah but can you think of any specific examples of where you might have done something different to what perhaps harley instructed you to do because you'd had previous experience of fitting something not off the top of my head no okay
03:16:58 not off the top of my head no okay now in your first witness statement this is a page 3 paragraph 4k we don't need to turn it up you say that osborne berry simply installed the materials as directed and you say something similar
03:17:11 directed and you say something similar in your second statement at page six paragraph nine b you say that the sequence of work was dictated by harley
03:17:19 by harley um can you just help us when you're using the word directed and dictated precisely what you mean by that we were told what part of the building needed to be done at what particular
03:17:31 needed to be done at what particular time
03:17:32 time i would say probably harley got that information from ryden's the main contractor because they didn't want you on this elevation today because they were doing something else and we were moved around the
03:17:44 else and we were moved around the elevations in that respect basically yeah so in practice it was always up to harley where you were working and how you were working correct yeah were you ever provided with any
03:17:58 yeah were you ever provided with any additional instructions on site for how the cladding was fitted beyond those contained in the drawings and the method statements no i think you might have just referred to perhaps one example of that which is
03:18:10 to perhaps one example of that which is raising the cavity barriers the horizontal cavity barriers would you agree that that wasn't something that was instructed in the drawing no that's yeah sorry that's my fault yes yeah yes
03:18:21 yeah sorry that's my fault yes yeah yes so that wasn't in a drawing or a method statement it was agreed on site was it that's correct that's correct are there any other examples you can think of like that
03:18:29 that of in practice when you got to try and fit the padding something needed to change from what was shown in the drawings fixing the cladding rails back to the top bracket it was meant to
03:18:41 back to the top bracket it was meant to be fixed with a 10 mil deadbolt but it would have been impossible to get at the deadbolt because the deadbolt would have been buried behind the insulation right so it was brought up that it could be fixed with
03:18:52 be fixed with tech screws which are self-drilling self-threading screws and that was brought up and passed back to daniel atkins jones for approval basically and that came
03:19:03 for approval basically and that came back has
03:19:04 back has been approved yeah and when you say sorry to interrupt no go go get you there was probably various other little things but remembering them yeah it's uh very difficult down the
03:19:15 yeah it's uh very difficult down the line
03:19:16 line and when you say that was passed back to daniel anchor jones would you actually speak to daniel lancaster jones about something like that or was it done by email i would have spoke to him about that you would have spoke to him yeah
03:19:27 that you would have spoke to him yeah and just picked up the phone and gave him a call just give him a ring yeah and again when the when the cavity barriers were slightly raised
03:19:36 raised i think you said before that that was would have been discussed with either kevin lam or daniel anchor jones that would be neither of those if if kevin was on site i would have discussed it with him when he was on site
03:19:47 it with him when he was on site yeah he wasn't i would have discussed it over the phone with uh daniel yeah okay that's helpful mr chairman i'm about to move to a different topic so i think that might be a good point for the lunch break yes
03:19:59 be a good point for the lunch break yes okay
03:20:00 okay mr osborne we're going to have a break now so we can all get some lunch we'll resume at two o'clock please that's fine and uh while you're out of the room i have to ask you please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
03:20:11 don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it that's fine great thank you i'd like to give the usher then please
03:20:30 all right two o'clock then please
03:20:59 you