Graham Berry (Osborne Berry fitter) and Mark Dixon (SD Plastering director) give evidence on cladding installation, cavity barriers, window reveals, and fire safety awareness during the Grenfell refurbishment.
00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:27 hearing today we're going to hear further evidence from one of the fitters osborne berry yes can we have mr graham berry please thank you
00:00:45 graham berry please thank you please can i ask you to read up the witness affirmation text that appears on your screen i do some of these sincerely and truly declare the affirmant that the evidence i
00:00:53 i shall give will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr berry would you like to sit down and make yourself comfortable there please
00:01:18 yes it's strange yes thank you um thank you very much mr berry for coming to give evidence today it's very much appreciated i will be asking you questions today if you have any difficulty understanding
00:01:29 if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way also please try and keep your voice up because the lady sitting to your right is transcribing
00:01:40 is transcribing everything we say and trying to get a clear note of your evidence now you've made two witness statements for the inquiry these are in a folder on the desk in front of you and they will also appear
00:01:51 front of you and they will also appear in the screen if we can go to the first at osb 6086 we can see there there's a date on it 24th of september 2018
00:02:03 24th of september 2018 and if we can look at the final page page 7
00:02:06 page 7 there we see the date again and is that your signature it is yes and have you read that statement recently um fairly recently yeah yeah and are the contents true
00:02:17 contents true yes and then if we can bring up your second witness statement to the inquiry this is
00:02:21 this is osb 6091
00:02:26 and if we look at page 14 of that statement
00:02:31 statement there we can see it's dated the 27th of june 2019 and again is that your signature
00:02:37 signature yes and have you read that second statement recently yeah yeah and can you confirm that the contents are true yes and then you also gave a statement
00:02:48 yes and then you also gave a statement to the metropolitan police service if we can bring that up it's met 3019985 it's dated the 21st of august
00:03:00 it's dated the 21st of august 2017. we can see that in the little date box between the two lines um
00:03:10 have you read that statement recently not recently no but no at the time yeah yeah can you confirm that the contents are true yes thank you and osborne berry also
00:03:21 thank you and osborne berry also provided a position statement to the inquiry which i think you rely on as part of your evidence yeah um if we can bring that up that's osb 7084
00:03:33 if we can bring that up that's osb 7084 there we go that's the osborne berry position statement did you assist in the preparation of that position statement yes and again are the contents true to the best of your knowledge yes and have you discussed your evidence
00:03:45 yes and have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no no okay so i first want to ask you some questions about your professional background and training um and you say paragraph three of your
00:03:57 um and you say paragraph three of your first witness statement that prior to the incorporation of osborne berry you'd worked as a fitter carrying out work for harley for about 20 years is that right that's correct yep
00:04:09 yep and did your work as a fitter involved the installation of building envelopes yes yeah were you fitting anything else or was it really external facades that you were dealing with it was a variance of different things
00:04:20 it was a variance of different things sometimes it was windows other times it was facades it was just depending on the projects and such yeah and would that work have included
00:04:27 included installing curtain walling rain screen cladding facades windows doors and structural glazing yes and we know that osborne berry was incorporated in 2002 so is it right that by the time
00:04:41 2002 so is it right that by the time that
00:04:41 that you were instructed by harley and the grenfell tower project you'd had around 32 years of experience in the installation of building envelopes
00:04:49 envelopes yeah have you undertaken any formal training or qualifications in relation to the installation of building envelopes i went to a training course in liverpool
00:05:01 i went to a training course in liverpool through his company called cornea yeah that was due with curtin ward installations and windows installation up there
00:05:07 up there that was a three-day course yep and when did you
00:05:11 did you do that course in liverpool i can't honestly remember the dates but it was around 2000 something but i can't be exactly yeah yeah
00:05:21 yeah yeah can you try and keep your voice up a little because you're a little bit faint if you can try and speak as clearly as you can
00:05:28 you can um have you undertaken any formal training or qualifications in relation to the installation of rain screen cladding facades no and what about any formal training in
00:05:39 no and what about any formal training in relation to fire safety in terms of installation and fitting work no and originally when you became a fitter had you served as an apprentice before you did that
00:05:51 before you did that i used to work in a factory actually manufacturing the windows yeah so from there it was a progress from there on to then the fitting side of things
00:06:00 of things i see yeah
00:06:04 and just on the grenfell project and i just want to establish this now did you yourself
00:06:08 yourself ever install any of the the cladding the installation the cavity barriers or were you just supervising others doing the install no i've done it myself as well yeah okay great
00:06:20 as well yeah okay great now i just want to ask you some questions about your witness statement to the inquiry if we can go to page five of your first witness statement that's osb 6086 yeah
00:06:31 osb 6086 yeah page five paragraph one you described there that osborne barry's got two directors small company yourself mr osborne um i think your wife is the company
00:06:43 um i think your wife is the company secretary is that right yep um and one employee fitter that's correct
00:06:48 correct yeah and on the grenfell project is it right that you were known as bears yes yeah and um i think we looked at this yesterday with mr osborne but mr osborne's witness
00:07:01 with mr osborne but mr osborne's witness statement paragraphs one two and three are very similar almost identical to this
00:07:06 this um did you prepare your statements at the same time as far as i can recall we did yeah did you
00:07:12 you check your statement before you signed it i checked mine yeah you did looking at um this page five paragraph one you say in the second substantive paragraph
00:07:24 the second substantive paragraph osbornberry undertakes work for private individuals companies and local authorities berry provides the labour and fitters this includes mr berry and myself do you see that there that is a mistake
00:07:35 do you see that there that is a mistake yeah yeah so you've referred to yourself as the third person yeah i did yeah obviously yeah is it possible that that had been taken over from
00:07:43 from mr osborne's statement i don't possibly i don't know you don't know you can't help us okay
00:07:51 now in terms of your engagement on the grenfell tower project um i want to ask you some questions about how osborne berry came to be instructed on it um and is it right that in august 2014
00:08:04 um and is it right that in august 2014 you took a telephone call from mr ray bailey of harley about whether osborne berry was interested in working on the project that's correct yeah
00:08:14 and if we look at page two of your second witness statement that's osb 6091 page two and we look at paragraph two
00:08:25 page two and we look at paragraph two you say there in 2a when you're asked what did mr bailey communicate um you say mr bailey simply explained that harley had been asked to refurbish grenfell tower
00:08:36 grenfell tower and would osborne bury like to bid for subcontracted work did mr berry say anything else to you sorry mr bailey say anything else to you at that stage about the proposed refurbishment works
00:08:48 about the proposed refurbishment works including what the materials would be that you would be fitting no that was just a brief phone call and then later on we had a meeting at his office to
00:08:55 office to go through more details right what was going to be used okay can you recall when that meeting took place i can't recall the exact date but it would have been some period of
00:09:07 would have been some period of a couple of weeks to a month after the initial phone call yeah yeah
00:09:14 and then [Music]
00:09:18 [Music] mr osborne has said in his evidence that osborne berry submitted a competitive tender and that he was aware that other companies were also tendering for the project was that your understanding
00:09:29 project was that your understanding yes yes again how did you come to find out about that it's hardly used various different subcontractors and there's obviously different teams who work on different projects at a time so
00:09:41 work on different projects at a time so it's probably just a known thing that other people are tending for the job not just to one company as such yeah
00:09:49 now if we then turn to a document this is osb
00:09:53 is osb 7061
00:09:58 and we look at the top of this page this is an email from rob maxwell it is to you we can see that um when we look further down and it's dated
00:10:09 down and it's dated the 24th of september 2014 and it says bez
00:10:13 bez used this to price the project kind regards rob maxwell and then
00:10:22 if we scroll down to the bottom on page three
00:10:25 three we can see that attached is an excel document
00:10:29 document grenfell tower schedule of quantities e3317 do you see that there yes now let's just turn that up so that's it osb7051
00:10:47 up so that's it osb7051 so here we can see it's for grenfell tower and
00:10:51 tower and what this does is break down the materials to be installed in different parts of the of the tower and it gives the meter squared
00:11:00 squared the materials that are required did you look at this document at the time when it was sent to you i did yeah
00:11:11 and was it on the basis of this document that you priced the works that's correct yeah and was it expected that osborne berry would insert its own figures into this
00:11:22 would insert its own figures into this document
00:11:23 document and then send it back to harley no it was more for us to work out square meters
00:11:28 meters price for ourselves just to compile an overall figure for the job rather than filling out and sending it back that way yeah and is it right that you were the key person within osborne berry that was responsible for looking at the price
00:11:40 responsible for looking at the price and the terms on which osborne berry was engaged yeah
00:11:46 [Applause]
00:11:51 and is it correct that you understood these to be the materials you would actually be installing on the project yes yeah now then if we turn on to osb 7046
00:12:06 this is an email from you to mr maxwell on so two days later no five days later on the 29th of september
00:12:17 five days later on the 29th of september and you just say you say price for job 252 465
00:12:24 252 465 any problems give me a ring and let me know asap is price okay to carry on working thanks bears so we can see that you provided a lump sum figure
00:12:35 lump sum figure for your work on the project can you help us as to how that price was calculated purely from the bill of quants yeah so you go through you work out each individually where the windows were would be an x amount of
00:12:46 windows were would be an x amount of meat which for fixing that which comes to x amount of figures and then accumulated all the way down to the bottom and then got the prices we see now yeah
00:13:00 and this is the submission of your competitive tender is that correct that's correct yeah was there any other document at any stage that formed part of osborne berry's tender for the work was there any other
00:13:13 tender for the work was there any other um
00:13:13 um information that you provided to harley in
00:13:17 in other than just the price for the job that was it that was it yeah and
00:13:24 yeah and there's reference there to um give me a ring let me know asap if price is okay to carry on working
00:13:30 working what work was carrying on at that time i'm sure it was just purely just surveying work on the building itself yeah not actual physical any anything else pardon that
00:13:44 and it's right isn't it that osborne barry subsequently received a call from harley confirming that you've been awarded the job is that right that's correct yeah was it mr ray bailey that called
00:13:55 was it mr ray bailey that called i think it was yeah yeah and was it you that took that call yes and was anything else discussed about the job at that stage not i'm aware of no
00:14:07 now if we look at page three of osborne berry's position statement this is osb 7084 page three
00:14:19 there we go we can see at paragraph 12 it says there there was no formal contract between osborne berry and harley facades due to their established relationship at the time
00:14:32 and so just to be clear on this is it your evidence that there was no other
00:14:39 other contract documents that form part of the agreement between you and harley there was another formal contract tool now so nothing else which set out the terms upon which arsenal and berry was engaged to carry out the work the
00:14:50 was engaged to carry out the work the standard by which those works would be carried out the programme none of those things were covered
00:14:56 covered no were they ever discussed verbally with mr bailey did you have those kind of discussions orally with him possibly about programming on the job but nothing else apart from that no
00:15:08 but nothing else apart from that no so no discussions about the quality or the standard of work obviously because before this the grenfell we've done other projects in london
00:15:15 london little vents were six tower blocks overall and we've done um a towel blocking houndslow the same thing so obviously because of our obviously previous works everything was okay they
00:15:27 previous works everything was okay they just expect it to be the same as we carry on
00:15:29 carry on just any other company workforce sort of thing yeah
00:15:37 now um if we go to page 10 of your second witness statement osb 6091 at page 10 and i want to look at paragraph 16b
00:15:49 um you asked the question what caused osborne berry to be of the view that making good the inner seals and reveals this is to the windows was not within the scope of its work and you say
00:16:00 you say this work would have been within osborne berry's capacity however it was not specified work within our agreed package with harley um so you're clear that it was never
00:16:11 um so you're clear that it was never part of osborne berry's scope of works to do any works to the in inner window reveals
00:16:18 reveals no none at all but you say that would have been within osborne berry's ability and experience to do that is that right that is correct yeah was it ever explained to you on the grenfell project
00:16:29 project why osborne berry weren't being asked to tender for that work as well i think harley possibly tended for it but maybe they didn't get it i don't know but we were never sort of consulted
00:16:40 know but we were never sort of consulted about
00:16:41 about why we didn't get it or whatever and stuff like that so yeah i see
00:16:48 had you ever had any standard terms in the past
00:16:51 the past that formed the basis of your contracts with harley had you ever had any formal contractual documents either from harley or
00:16:59 harley or going between you back up to harley which set out the terms on which you were contracting none whatsoever no
00:17:09 and in terms of the standard of workmanship that osborne berry was engaged to provide um is your answer the same as the one you gave a moment ago that it was just to provide the same standard you'd done on other projects
00:17:21 on other projects was there ever any specific discussion about that no just as as as before that was it yeah
00:17:33 [Applause]
00:17:38 now is it right that it was part of osborne berry's work to remove the old window panes which can since consisted of a single pane of glass that's correct yeah
00:17:54 well presumably you removed the complete window
00:17:59 window arrangement did you no because the new windows were put on the outside of the building on a shelf angle so it's further out from the building we only had to remove the inside single bit of glass so we could
00:18:11 inside single bit of glass so we could carry out our work to put the glass on the inside of the building afterwards yeah and then the existing frame was done by another contractor yes exactly so the wind the old window
00:18:23 yes exactly so the wind the old window frame
00:18:23 frame remained in place at the end of your works and that was left for somebody else
00:18:27 else to deal with yeah originally they were the frames were supposed to come to sight pre-glazed so everything was inside the frame in one piece but due to weight of them we couldn't move them around the buildings they decided to
00:18:39 around the buildings they decided to then
00:18:40 then supply the frames on site with no glass in the tool yeah then we go into the resonance
00:18:44 resonance flats at a time then remove the old single bit of glass uh install the double glaze units seal them all up and then obviously and leave it to another contractor to finish off them making it on the inside
00:18:55 finish off them making it on the inside yeah now you say that that work was left to another contractor were you ever made aware during your time on the project which contractor was carrying that out i saw the guys on site but i didn't know
00:19:06 saw the guys on site but i didn't know which contractor it was as such no did you ever think to speak to them about the interface between your work and their work to make sure that the the window reveals
00:19:18 window reveals were you know of the right quality done properly and were compatible with the work you were doing on the new windows i know ryden's took the guys who were doing the job
00:19:29 doing the job they went out there done a sample like we've done air samples on our staff and then as far as we know that that was part of ryden's package so they dealt with that side of things rather than us yeah were you ever told what the
00:19:41 yeah were you ever told what the materials were that were being used in the
00:19:45 the inner window reveals i saw the materials they were using because on some flats they had the materials outside the flats in the hallways but i didn't pay too much attention i saw it was a plastic
00:19:57 was a plastic did you see that they were using upvc outer surround with combustible insulation board all the way around the outsides of the windows i saw the plastic line on the on
00:20:10 windows i saw the plastic line on the on the hallways prior to them going in the apartments that day but i didn't see anything else whilst i was doing my our parts of the work night i see and when you're referring to the plastic lying in the hallway do you mean
00:20:21 plastic lying in the hallway do you mean the upvc
00:20:22 the upvc yes the white upvc that's correct yeah i see
00:20:29 and did you ever consider from a fire safety perspective the interface between that work to the inner window reveals and your work putting in the new windows putting in
00:20:40 putting in the new windows putting in the edpm membrane and sealing it from a waterproofing point of view i didn't look at it on that side i think i was more concerned obviously there the seating on the outside of the epidemic is to make sure the building was airtight and watertight but i didn't
00:20:52 was airtight and watertight but i didn't look at too much about the stuff on the inside so that's nice mr berry i think the transcribers find it quite hard to keep up with you so um i'm going to have to ask you to
00:21:03 so um i'm going to have to ask you to try and speak a little bit more slowly and try and keep your voice a bit up a bit okay
00:21:08 bit okay if you could please yeah
00:21:14 now if we can go um i want to ask you just a few questions about payment um since you were the one at osborne berry that dealt with that um if we can go to osborne berry's position statement this is osb
00:21:27 position statement this is osb 7084 and look at paragraph five
00:21:35 so there you say osbornberry initially placed a bid for the refurbishment of grenfell tower in the sum of 270 000 pounds this figure rose due to extra work required to approximately
00:21:47 required to approximately 325 000 pounds now um can you help us as to how that approximate figure was calculated when you put that
00:21:58 when you put that in the position statement the uh the first figure the later figure the later one the 325 000. you say there it's approximately can you help us as to how that figure
00:22:10 can you help us as to how that figure was arrived at it's just approximate figure i can't remember unless i had all the invoices in front of me to know exactly what the whole figure was but yeah
00:22:17 yeah just that was just a working out of a rough sort of gauge a prop again approximate figure sort of thing i see so is this right that you didn't actually go back and just double check the invoices you did that what from from memory just
00:22:29 you did that what from from memory just roughly from memory yeah we've had a look at the invoices and um sorry first question it would have that have been net of vat those figures you're giving there or
00:22:41 those figures you're giving there or would that be on top of that sorry would that be included in that or not included in that probably not included right yeah so there's net figures yeah we've had a look at the invoices
00:22:54 yeah we've had a look at the invoices submitted to harley between november 14 and march 17 and taken away any work that's obviously not on the grenfell project and it seems to amount to a little bit higher 367
00:23:06 to amount to a little bit higher 367 thousand
00:23:07 thousand do you think that perhaps that's perhaps more like the amount of work you did if that's the figures on the invoices then yes it would be right yeah yeah now
00:23:17 yeah now if we can now turn to osb seven zeros 50
00:23:29 this is we think an email from you to ben bailey on the 28th of august 2015
00:23:38 and you say hi ben this is the email i sent to rob for grenfell tower on top of this price is extras which i discussed with your dad in a meeting at
00:23:49 discussed with your dad in a meeting at the office i have a breakdown of this and can send it to you if you want thanks bears do you see that there yeah and what you've done is you have cut into this email and pasted
00:24:01 you have cut into this email and pasted below
00:24:02 below the email that we saw previously of the 29th of september 2014 so this email you're sending is almost a year later yeah um now can you help us as to what
00:24:14 yeah um now can you help us as to what were the extras referred to in this email that you say you discussed with ray bailey in a meeting it was more to the windows when they come they were
00:24:25 to the windows when they come they were supposed to come pre-glazed but they didn't so it was another visit inside the building to put the glass in so it was next drove on the original price there was some epdm work which wasn't showing on the villa quant or
00:24:36 wasn't showing on the villa quant or even i think on the original drawings we had
00:24:38 had which was x amount of meters around the buildings that added up an extra on the cost as well and i think some of it was to do with some
00:24:46 some uh met set work which is like a steel frame
00:24:50 frame building which makes a structure in between the concrete and that was some other extra work we weren't aware of so i just went in and saw ray bay and just discussed and sat down with some notes i had on a notepad of the
00:25:02 some notes i had on a notepad of the extra stuff i was asking for yeah and that's all it come to yeah yeah you talked there about extra edpm work um was the position that um when you
00:25:14 um was the position that um when you tended and did your original price that no edpm had been included and then when you got to site you realized it did need to have an edp and membrane or was it extra edpm work no is it
00:25:26 or was it extra edpm work no is it epdm work to go around the the frames itself
00:25:30 itself because once they were in the building because they were so far out from the building
00:25:33 building there was obviously a gap away round which needed to be waterproof and air tested as well so the ebdm work was included onto that afterwards after so all of the edmp edpm work came as an extra later that's
00:25:45 edpm work came as an extra later that's correct yeah yeah and can you help us who was it who identified the fact that the gaps were so big
00:25:51 so big they would need this edpm seal around the outside i think it was when uh mark done the original
00:25:57 original sample window on the 15th or 16th floor i can't remember which through it was yeah
00:26:03 yeah install the sample window so the client ridings and other people come and see it yeah and obviously there was a interface between the two was there was a gap there as such so they decided they're going to be
00:26:15 so they decided they're going to be downright just to make sure it's weather tight and
00:26:17 tight and airtight as well yeah now we heard about that um mock-up of the
00:26:24 the the windows um on the 15th and 16th floor we heard about that from mr osborne yesterday can you help us as to when approximately that
00:26:33 that was done how far into the project i mean were you on site already when you did that or did you go in to do that before you got to site i think it was done
00:26:44 think it was done prior to me going there i can't be 100 sure
00:26:48 sure and can you help us whether that was 2014 2015 i would have said 2015 myself yeah okay
00:26:57 and you've said that ryden were there for that mock-up and presumably people from harley is that right i would have thought so yeah can you be more specific as to precisely who was there for that mock-up exercise
00:27:09 who was there for that mock-up exercise i can't remember because i can't remember if i was there on site at the time or not yeah i do remember when once i got into sight seeing obviously one had been fitted but i can't remember it was prior to me being on top or not i
00:27:20 it was prior to me being on top or not i can't remember yeah and you're clear that one of the things that came out of that mock-up exercise was a need to put an edpm membrane around the outside of the gaps in the windows
00:27:31 the gaps in the windows that's correct yeah
00:27:40 now if we can turn now to osb eight zeros seven this is um one of the invoices um
00:27:53 this is um one of the invoices um from osborne berry to harley facades this one stated the october 2015. and i just want to ask you a few things about what's in this invoice if we look in the
00:28:05 what's in this invoice if we look in the third line from the bottom can you say can you see it says bez and taft no
00:28:10 taft no work for one day 360 pounds do you see that there i do yeah can you help us as to what that item is referring to i can't remember what it refers to as
00:28:22 i can't remember what it refers to as such but obviously there was a day we were on site with nothing to do so we had to charge them for physically being there for the day yes i see did that happen frequently on the project that you were there but had no work to do
00:28:33 no work to do not frequently i would have said no no but occasionally maybe occasionally yeah yeah and then the final line there reads eight men no
00:28:44 eight men no work for one day machines up in air to look like
00:28:47 look like working can you help us as to what that's referring to i think that was a time where we had no materials on site for that particular day or so
00:28:56 day or so and um lions had a client meeting with potential clients from another building so they hardly asked us to be up in the air to look like we're working so it's like a normal building site rather than people just
00:29:08 building site rather than people just sat downstairs doing nothing i see so when you talk about the client do you mean the tmo client visited and ridens were anxious to make sure they could see building work progressing
00:29:19 they could see building work progressing it was ryden's but i don't know who the client was as such i see and did you do that did you go up on the mass climbers and make it look like you were working
00:29:30 look like you were working yes and how long did you do that for just for the day for the whole day by lunch break obviously
00:29:42 and was that just a one-off occasion where that occurred or did that ever happen
00:29:46 happen again on the project as far as i know it was just a one-off occasion yeah
00:29:53 now um some questions about choice of materials now um if we can go to page two of your first witness statement that's osb 6086 page two
00:30:08 6086 page two and if we look at paragraph four d
00:30:14 you're asked the question was the exterior of the building compliant with relevant building regulations fire regulations etc and your answer is i do not know the answer to this question i worked on the
00:30:25 answer to this question i worked on the basis that all materials supplied to us for installation by harley were compliant
00:30:31 compliant now i just want to ask did you ever have any discussions with anybody at any time during the project about the compliance of the materials you were fitting with the
00:30:42 the materials you were fitting with the building regulations or any other relevant legal requirements no i'm aware of no
00:30:48 of no no you never had those discussions with anybody no
00:30:55 did you ever have any discussions with anyone on the project um about the fire performance of the materials that you were installing did that topic ever come up no
00:31:09 did you ever discuss the fire performance of what you were installing with mr osborne or anyone else internally with within osborne berry no or with harley
00:31:20 no or with harley no
00:31:23 did you ever have any reason to consider yourself the performance of the products you were asked to install in terms of their reaction to fire or their combustibility during your time on the project
00:31:34 project no because we use similar products and other buildings the same material as such so if you don't on previous building we just assume that it'll be the same on
00:31:45 we just assume that it'll be the same on this one there won't be any problems yeah now when you say we use similar um products on other buildings we heard a little bit about that from mr osborne yesterday and he referred for example to
00:31:56 yesterday and he referred for example to little venice in the hounslow project i think one on commercial road as well is that right commercial road was one as well yeah and when you say there were similar products was it just the outer panels that were
00:32:09 was it just the outer panels that were similar
00:32:09 similar the acm panels or was for example the insulation and the cavity barrier is similar the insulation was similar on commercial road yeah um
00:32:24 and then the actual panels themselves were similar to it was a different company but one was renamed and one was commonly known skin with a yeah was used on little venice
00:32:37 yeah was used on little venice yeah and when you say the insulation was similar on commercial road do you know what type of insulation you were installing on commercial road it was a either kingspan or celatex i
00:32:49 it was a either kingspan or celatex i can't remember which one it was but it was one of them two so it's a solid board insulation that's great yeah did you know what type of product it was for example whether it was a
00:33:01 whether it was a pir poly isocyanurate or a phenolic foam insulation did you know that no no and commercial road was how tall can you help us
00:33:12 help us um about
00:33:15 um about 20 floors something approximately something like that yeah so a tall building yeah and what about the cavity barriers on those projects
00:33:27 those projects were you using ciderized cavity barriers we're using the carriage barrier but i can't remember what manufacturing it come from yeah okay had you ever heard of the term class
00:33:38 had you ever heard of the term class naught or national class naught in relation to the fire performance of materials
00:33:42 materials no no
00:33:51 now in your witness statement you say this is page two of your met statement um you say that you didn't have any concerns about the materials because you'd use them before
00:34:04 does that summarize your in essence your view about whether they were acceptable for use that simply because you've used them before and other projects you just assumed they could be used on this project as well yeah because it's the same um
00:34:18 because it's the same um height of building uh similar sort of products as well so yeah yeah can we turn now just to look at the outer panels um on the cladding panels themselves and if we can bring up bba
00:34:32 i think five zeros 47.
00:34:36 sorry six zeros 47. yeah so this is the bba certificate for the rayna bond um acm panels that were being installed
00:34:47 um acm panels that were being installed the aluminium composite panels it was issued in january 2008 we could get that towards the bottom of this page in the pale blue box and have you ever seen this document
00:34:59 and have you ever seen this document before no
00:35:04 and so it must follow therefore you didn't see it on the grenfell project not i'm aware tonight if we turn in on this um certificate to page three
00:35:16 on this um certificate to page three at the top there's a general section if we could focus in on that in the third paragraph it says it is important for designers planners contractors and or installers to ensure
00:35:27 contractors and or installers to ensure that the installation of the cladding is in accordance with the certificate holders instructions and the information given in this certificate were you aware at any stage on the grenfell project
00:35:38 grenfell project of being provided with instructions from the manufacturer that would have been alcoa or iconic no
00:35:49 so again does it follow that you didn't check any manufacturer's instructions before you installed the acm cladding that's correct yep
00:36:01 in terms of that that installation how did you know how to install it were you simply following harley drawings or were you drawing on past experience of installing panels
00:36:12 panels mainly harley drawings and this system was different to the ones we've done before because it was a hook on system yes so you there's only one way you could install the panel onto the building anyway with the rails and the hook on system anyway
00:36:23 the rails and the hook on system anyway so yeah
00:36:23 so yeah yeah had you ever worked with a hook on or cassette system before in installing these types of panels not this type of panel but a similar panel it was an aluminium panel with a hook on
00:36:34 it was an aluminium panel with a hook on system at um i think it was neuram hospital in london yeah
00:36:40 yeah okay and then if we go to page six of this certificate and look at section 10
00:36:50 it says in section um paragraph 10.2 there it says installers must be trained and approved by the certificate holder who can provide technical assistance at
00:37:01 who can provide technical assistance at the design stage and at the start of the installation do you see that there yeah um did osborne berry ever receive any training from the manufacturer by alcoa or iconic
00:37:12 from the manufacturer by alcoa or iconic no do you know whether osborne berry was approved as an installer by alcoa or iconic i don't know
00:37:23 alcoa or iconic i don't know were you aware at the time you were installing the panels that the way they were being fixed on the grenfell project differed from the standard archonic detail
00:37:33 detail for the cassette system the system we've used before was a riveted system yeah and obviously the grain field was a hook-on system so that's any difference right off yeah so you weren't aware that
00:37:45 right off yeah so you weren't aware that there might have been differences between how iconic would as a standard recommend the cassettes to be installed and how you were installing them for example the
00:37:56 you were installing them for example the types of bolts that they were hung on to no no
00:38:02 what did you think at the time you were working on the project what did you think was inside the core of the panels it was a black material of some sort we've used it before
00:38:13 we've used it before on different projects as well it could be a plastic it could have been plastic i don't know but it you can definitely see the black uh material inside the core itself yeah so um you said it might have been a
00:38:25 yeah so um you said it might have been a plastic
00:38:25 plastic did you actually know at the time you were installing it what the call was no and did you know it was a plastic maybe when we we had to cut some on the
00:38:37 maybe when we we had to cut some on the um main roof area we cut some panels down up there but when you're cutting through aluminium and possibly a plastic core as well yeah but
00:38:46 but not it wasn't totally aware of it as such
00:38:49 such yeah so you didn't know that the core was made of something called polyethylene or pe not at the time though had you ever heard of
00:38:58 heard of a polyethylene or pe in relation to those panels no did you ever have any discussions about the fire performance of the panels or the core with anybody
00:39:11 of the panels or the core with anybody on site
00:39:12 on site no
00:39:19 and were you aware i think when you were installing the panels on on the main part of the building that the core of the panel was exposed all around the perimeter of the panel
00:39:30 around the perimeter of the panel yeah i knew that yeah yeah
00:39:35 just on the mock-up um you've helpfully referred to the mock-up that was done on the 16th 17th floor um
00:39:45 floor um can you recall whether you already had drawings by that point um presumably you must have had something those drawings on site at that point before we've done the mock-up yeah
00:39:56 point before we've done the mock-up yeah yeah
00:39:58 yeah mr osborne talked yesterday about a drawing
00:40:01 drawing where some red pen had been applied to the drawing in hand with handwriting to show where the cavity barriers were do you recall that drawing
00:40:12 drawing can you record i can't recall it but it possibly would have happened yeah but i can't
00:40:16 can't honestly remember because it was a long time ago yeah okay
00:40:21 just a few questions about the insulation now were you aware of what the different types of insulation were that were being used in the tower between levels 4 and 23 on the spandaus and the columns
00:40:33 and the columns i knew it was a solid kingspan celetex material so that was it yeah
00:40:41 yeah yeah so you knew they were either kingspan or celetex did you know anything about the specific product that they were no so you didn't know that the celetex was rs 5000. no
00:40:52 rs 5000. no or the kingspan was k15
00:40:57 was some of the celatex unbranded like plain in the foil on the outside can you remember that i can't honestly remember that might have been yeah it was when we had deliveries on site it
00:41:10 it was when we had deliveries on site it was a
00:41:11 was a forklift that brought them in pallets at a time we just stacked them up in the compound we had and then obviously distributed around the building and such but i didn't pay too much attention what was if it was brand and not branded yeah can
00:41:23 if it was brand and not branded yeah can we look at a photo at this point this is
00:41:32 ryd3051704 now we looked at this photo yesterday with mr osborne if we could focus in on the bit
00:41:39 the bit above the mass climber on the left-hand side
00:41:43 side i think mr osborne confirmed that if you look
00:41:46 look three levels up from the mass climber right on the far left you can see some insulation so either side of the branded rayna bond panels you see some insulation which appears to
00:41:57 you see some insulation which appears to have the kingspan marking on can you see that yeah and is it right that kingspan was installed on the spandrels and some of the columns as
00:42:08 the spandrels and some of the columns as far as i'm aware yeah yeah and can you help us as to which face of the building this is we if we pan out again now
00:42:17 um we showed this to mr osborne yesterday
00:42:21 yesterday and he thought it might be i think he thought it might be the east face can you help us i think that's the west elevation as far as i'm aware yeah and why do you think it's the west
00:42:32 yeah and why do you think it's the west just purely because on the east elevation there's some big trees and other stuff in the way i don't think you better get an angler on the camera to take a clearer picture like you have on that one yeah that's all yeah we know it's either the east or
00:42:43 yeah we know it's either the east or west face because it's only got two inner columns that's correct yeah
00:42:49 can you remember when you were first asked to install or when you were started installing the kingspan k15 product as opposed to the celatex product do you have a memory of the kings band suddenly
00:43:01 have a memory of the kings band suddenly being there as well i wouldn't say it suddenly appeared there but there was a difference in delivery um sorry different company that supplied the material as such yeah
00:43:13 the material as such yeah one was a company called sig i think it was delivered the first lot and then the second lot i can't remember the company's name or but it was a different colored lorry with a different stuff on on the back of it such from kingspan yeah yeah
00:43:25 back of it such from kingspan yeah yeah so does that mean you have a clear memory of two separate deliveries of kingspan to the site yeah yeah i can't remember the dates but there was you know there were different deliveries yeah yeah and were you told anything about
00:43:37 yeah and were you told anything about why the kingspan was being used in substitution for the celetex no
00:43:48 and can you help us where would the kingspan have been used we can see it was used there on the west face if you if you're right that that's the west face yeah
00:43:55 face yeah um would it have just been distributed to everybody on site that day and therefore potentially gone all around the building or would it have only gone to certain faces that you were working on at the time it would have been depend on how far
00:44:07 it would have been depend on how far each side of the building who was working on which side of the building if it was the west or the north or not the south as far as i know and it would have been distributed around different
00:44:15 different floors as the building was going up because every every elevation was progressed at different times because one was started first compared to the other one so yeah this one could have been the 13th floor and the one on the side there could have been the 15th floor i don't know
00:44:27 been the 15th floor i don't know definitely but there were user difference times different heights of the building yeah thank you that's helpful so i now want to ask you some questions some more detailed questions about cavity barriers
00:44:40 questions about cavity barriers um so can we just look first at page seven of your first witness statement this is osb 6086 at page seven
00:44:51 6086 at page seven and if we look at paragraph 11
00:44:56 you're asked there about training that osborne gary berry gave to those installing the facade and windows and in the second sentence you say osbornberry had no involvement in
00:45:07 osbornberry had no involvement in relation to the fitting of cavity barriers
00:45:10 barriers do you see that there yeah i do yeah is that right does that remain your evidence that you didn't have any involvement in the fitting of the cavalry at the time we
00:45:19 we we class them as fire breaks but obviously in hindsight now with everyone's eff it is a cavity barrier science yeah yeah i see
00:45:27 i see so the reason you've answered that way is because you remember or you thought what you were installing was a fire break not something that was categorized as a cavity barrier exactly yeah
00:45:35 yeah i see but you accept that you did install cavity barriers uh horizontal ones vertical ones on the exterior of the building we did yeah yeah
00:45:50 now
00:45:54 we we know that
00:45:58 sorry just before we get to that yes no yeah if we look at the schedule of quantities that was provided that the bill of quantities again this is osb
00:46:09 seven zeros 51. and if we look at page two of this we can see under zinc rain screen to
00:46:20 we can see under zinc rain screen to columns at the top of that page
00:46:25 we can see that vertical fire stops are listed as the second to last item in that list
00:46:30 that list can you see that there 362 meters there of that and then a little further down the page
00:46:37 the page under zinc rain screen to walls we've got um horizontal fire stops
00:46:46 2152 meters so we can see that a lot more horizontal fire stops are going to be required than vertical that's right isn't it that's great yeah
00:46:58 and was it your understanding when you were pricing up the job and looking at this
00:47:03 this that those two items the vertical fire stops and the horizontal fire stops were two different products at price and no not until we actually
00:47:14 at price and no not until we actually got onto the side we found out there were two different one was a
00:47:20 one was a intermittent strip on the front which on the horizontal and the vertical ones wasn't it was just a plain um fire stop itself yeah a full field fire stop that's correct yeah yeah
00:47:31 yeah yeah so just to be clear at the time you were looking at this bill of quantities early in your involvement is it your evidence that you didn't understand that vertical cavity barriers
00:47:42 understand that vertical cavity barriers were in general generally different from horizontal ones in terms of that distinction one's got an intumescent strip and one's a fulfilled block it all depends what was agreed with
00:47:53 it all depends what was agreed with obviously the architects and the clients at the time yeah previous products we've used different products but not with an intermission strip as such we've used one at um hounslow is more of a
00:48:07 used one at um hounslow is more of a foiled very thin piece of material that was fixed the same sort of way but different design aspect from another company as such yeah so um again does it follow from your
00:48:20 so um again does it follow from your answers that you didn't have any experience of installing these kind of cavity barriers on a building prior to the grenfell project we've used them on other ones yeah but not um with the um
00:48:35 um with the um intermission strip as far as i remember right
00:48:38 right had you ever used the side arise cavity barriers before how do you ever use cavity barriers by that manufacturer not i'm aware of we might have done but i can't remember yeah
00:48:51 if we could just pull up briefly this is
00:48:55 har408991
00:49:01 this is these are the harley specification notes for the project which we now know that kevin lamb put together
00:49:08 together do you remember ever seeing these on the project
00:49:12 i can't remember seeing them as such no would you normally expect to see a specification like that or would you normally expect only to see drawings
00:49:22 drawings on a drawing you'll see a specification in the right hand side of what on that particular one you're doing if it's a window it'll give you the specification that the style of the glass is going to be on there or um
00:49:33 there or um if you're showing one with insulation on it there'll be a again on the right hand side there'll be a column saying what each product on that on that drawing itself i see the harley drawings that we've looked at and we've had for the project
00:49:46 looked at and we've had for the project didn't have for example the main insulation product specified so it didn't have the celatex or the kingspan specified on it but do you have a memory of having drawings that did have that insulation
00:49:59 drawings that did have that insulation specified on it maybe not the manufacturer's name of the thing but maybe um when i was on it it might have said on the side there two lots of 80 ml insulation as such but not maybe the
00:50:10 maybe the the name of the company as such yeah i see so you knew you were installing two thicknesses of 80 mil insulation and then what you would when you got to site you would then be provided with those boards that's correct yeah and you would
00:50:22 boards that's correct yeah and you would install them yeah so you wouldn't necessarily know until the moment of your install exactly what the product was no and would the same apply to the cavity barriers that you wouldn't
00:50:33 barriers that you wouldn't know until you literally started installing those barriers what the product was they might have said that we're getting delivery of the county bears next week and the name of the company was
00:50:44 and the name of the company was supplying them but that wouldn't be yeah yeah now on these specification notes on the right hand side around halfway down the page it says fire breaks refurb zones
00:50:57 fire breaks refurb zones and we can see there that the distinctions being drawn between two different products the horizontal and the vertical with the horizontal being ventilated brakes and the vertical being full fill
00:51:09 and the vertical being full fill non-ventilated brakes do you see that there
00:51:12 there yeah so can you help us when did you first understand on the grenfell project that there were these two types of cavity barriers
00:51:21 when the first delivery turned up which would have been the horizontal one with the black strip on it we saw that yeah and then it wasn't until we're doing the verticals further down the line that the different product coming in for that i think
00:51:38 if we can turn now to sil 50230
00:51:52 this is some of the cider eyes marketing material
00:51:55 material for the two types of cavity barriers um can you help us did you ever see this kind of marketing material when you were installing the barriers i don't remember no
00:52:09 and if we go to sil50227 this is more siderise marketing material
00:52:21 this is more siderise marketing material which also contains some installation guidance within it for those installing the barriers and we can see at the bottom of that page
00:52:31 page you've got the horizontal application barriers and then the vertical ones the horizontal ones there have got green tape on the outer face is it right that on the grenfeld project they had just a
00:52:42 on the grenfeld project they had just a strip of green tape on the top of the barrier the pictures i've seen yeah yeah and what about the vertical cavity barriers do you remember them having any particular markings
00:52:54 having any particular markings not particularly now so in practice when you were on site how were you distinguishing between a
00:53:07 how were you distinguishing between a horizontal cavity barrier and a vertical cavity barrier because the horizontal ones had the black strip on the front edge of them right i see
00:53:17 and just to be clear did you read any guide that looked like this at the time you worked on the project no i'm aware of now
00:53:29 i'm aware of now can you help us as to what guidance would have been given to the fitters that you had instructed to work on on the project about the installation of the cavity barriers how would the fitters know what to do with them
00:53:41 fitters know what to do with them we done their first mock-up and after that we took them up there showed them that the initial mock-up and then took them on to other master arms and explained to them how we wanted done showed them how we wanted it fitted on the building and
00:53:53 the building and then after that they were working either beside us on another machine or on their machine as well so we're watching how they were fitting it and making sure we were happy with their quality of work and stuff like that yeah and when you were training the
00:54:06 yeah and when you were training the fitters did you draw a clear distinction between
00:54:08 between what a horizontal cavity barrier looked like in a vertical one at the time on site there was only the horizontal ones there on site anyway because the verticals will be done later on
00:54:17 on i see and we did explain to them that when the
00:54:20 when the vertical ones turned out they were completely different horizontal once yeah so what was the time gap between the installation of the horizontal barriers and the installation of the
00:54:31 barriers and the installation of the vertical ones can you help us i'd say a good two months or more right yeah so the horizontal all go on and the insulation goes on top
00:54:43 insulation goes on top yes that's correct yeah and then the vertical ones go on the um because everything was done with the initial with the shelf angles and the windows were still in the building
00:54:54 the windows were still in the building then obviously in between that we filled in the horizontal fire brakes and the horizontal installation on that structure such the vertical structures the um [Music]
00:55:05 [Music] the brackets had to be made and that there was a different type of um rail system that was being used they had to be manufactured as well so yeah more concentrate on the horizontal aspects first getting that part they're building down and then
00:55:16 that part they're building down and then going on to vertical ones afterwards yes okay thanks that's helpful
00:55:23 if you didn't have any guidance from the manufacturer as to how to install the cavity barriers how could you be sure that they were being installed correctly because the mock-up we done the original sample we've done was inspected by
00:55:35 was inspected by harley ryden's building inspector building control people like that come and inspect it to make sure they're happy with what the sample looked like and then for us to progress on after that yeah so is it right that you
00:55:48 after that yeah so is it right that you would be relying on harley and ryden at as part of that mock-up exercise to flag up if there were any problems with the
00:55:55 the cavity barrier installation yeah but i think you said that when did you actually have any vertical cavity barriers to put as part of that mock-up
00:56:04 mock-up not on the horizontal one no no it was purely just a horizontal one to start off with
00:56:08 off with and then i'm sure later on there was a vertical one done as well for them to come and check that as well yeah now you also just said that building inspectors and building control would have looked at that mock-up
00:56:19 would have looked at that mock-up do you have a clear recollection of somebody from rbkc building control being there looking at the mock-up exercise i don't remember the i remember them coming to site because
00:56:30 coming to site because mark explained they'll come to site to inspect it right and after they've inspected it they come back and said okay that's fine and then for us to proceed after that we didn't do anything until it was checked and everyone was happy with it
00:56:41 and everyone was happy with it i see so you had a clear understanding did you from what you were told by mark that building control had seen the mock-up and were happy with it correct yeah but they couldn't have seen
00:56:52 correct yeah but they couldn't have seen the vertical cavity barriers at that stage could they because they weren't installed no so how far can you help us how extensive was the mock-up was it just
00:57:00 just one window and what was above and below it
00:57:04 it i mean how how far out from the window did the mock-up actually extend it it done the whole width of the the frame itself yeah so literally from column to column it was filled in completely as it would be on the rest of the
00:57:15 as it would be on the rest of the building yeah but you hadn't put anything on the columns itself is that right i'm aware so it stops short of the columns yes
00:57:29 sorry just one more point on the side arise literature did you ever look in practice at the siderise website on site or any siderise videos as to how to install these barriers no
00:57:45 if we look at page six of this siderise guidance we can see there's some installation recommendations there
00:57:57 and if we look at the it's discussing the vertical cavity barrier uh in the first paragraph it says siderise cavity barriers for rain screen clouding vertical is installed within
00:58:08 clouding vertical is installed within the cavity form between the rain screen facade and the inner structural wall using appropriate siderise support brackets
00:58:17 brackets just pausing there were you aware that you were using siderise support brackets when you're on site i wasn't aware what what manufacturer was from but we were using a bracket yeah and then it says this this cavity
00:58:29 yeah and then it says this this cavity barrier is fitted vertically under compression completely filling the void
00:58:35 void the product is installed with the plain mineral fibre edge positioned against the structural wall do you see that there
00:58:41 there i do yeah now can you help us um was there any sense in which the vertical cavity barriers were installed under compression when they were put onto the grenfell building because they were coming oversized then
00:58:53 because they were coming oversized then they were trimmed on site to suit and fit tight against the panel as far as others were yeah right in practice did the panel provide any form of compression it would have deemed with the shape of
00:59:04 it would have deemed with the shape of it yeah i think because it wasn't a straight flat panel on an angle so as you fitted it and then moved it around to the side rail that would give you the compression side of things on that right
00:59:15 of things on that right and where your fit is told that they had to compress the panel in when it was fitted sorry the barrier in when it was fitted yeah yeah and i think mr osborne explained to
00:59:26 yeah and i think mr osborne explained to us yesterday that the reason these barriers had to be trimmed on site is because the columns as you went up the building so that the the gap that you were putting the cavity barriers in
00:59:38 barriers in changed in terms of its dimensions it did yeah because the concrete itself was never
00:59:42 never straight and true and flat so there was obviously a demon some measurements from say the bottom of the building to the top of the building anyway yeah so there would have been a large one ordered and then trimmed on side to side yeah
00:59:52 yeah and do you yourself have a memory of actually physically installing vertical cavity barriers and trimming those down on site i did yeah yeah and how many
01:00:04 i did yeah yeah and how many columns would you have installed vertical barriers on compared with the other fitters for example possibly about the same and and how many would you do each can you help
01:00:15 how many would you do each can you help us um
01:00:17 us um practice i suppose because they've done to what more towards the last part of the job
01:00:23 the job if i was working on one elevation i'd probably do two two columns as such and they'll be on the machine beside me doing the same principle again so
01:00:34 doing the same principle again so we do fairly the same amount as such yeah
01:00:38 yeah and how did it work in practice did you do a section of the vertical building um first and and then work downwards or upwards
01:00:46 upwards we'd go upwards you go upwards and would you always install a barrier from bottom to top in one go or would that work be interrupted depending on where the mass climbers
01:00:57 depending on where the mass climbers were
01:00:57 were only if there was a mass climate on the way you'd have to leave a gap out now that'll be it but apart from that would be from bomb to top right okay
01:01:07 at the time of the grenfell project did you generally understand that the purpose of cavity barriers within rain screen systems was to inhibit the passage of fire from window openings
01:01:18 window openings into the cavities and also to inhibit the spread of fire within the external cavities
01:01:24 cavities did you understand that yes stop the fire
01:01:27 fire moving yeah did you understand how the cavity barriers were intended to operate in in the event of a fire they were meant to they were formed between floor
01:01:38 meant to they were formed between floor to floor and flat to flat horizontal virtually yeah yeah and what was your understanding of how the horizontal cavity barrier would work in the event of a fire with the intermittent strip that when a
01:01:49 with the intermittent strip that when a fire broke out that would expand out and fill out the gap between the panel and the um the intermission strip itself yeah did you understand what the consequences might be of poorly fitting cavity
01:02:01 might be of poorly fitting cavity barriers for example if there were gaps in the horizontal barriers did you understand that that might mean then once they activated in the event of a fire there would still be gaps
01:02:12 fire there would still be gaps at the time i didn't think there was gaps as such and not until we've seen the evidence recently that there was gaps there yeah i see so your evidence is that you weren't aware that there was any gaps around the cavity barriers no
01:02:28 what steps did you take to ensure that all osborne berries fitters working on the project understood that cavity barriers needed to be tightly fitted with no gaps we did it tell them various parts of
01:02:41 we did it tell them various parts of doing the job that that is what they were required to do yeah
01:02:46 and did you ever have to remind them i mean how did it work in practice did you ever become concerned in practice that they weren't tightly fitted and so you had to go back and remind particular
01:02:57 you had to go back and remind particular fitters to do it i don't remember particularly reminding anyone in particular but at different stages of the buildings we'd go up ourselves and look at different elevations and check things ourselves anyway and we were happy with what we
01:03:08 anyway and we were happy with what we saw
01:03:09 saw yeah now mr ben bailey when he was giving evidence to us was asked whether he ever gave any instructions or guidance to osborne berry about materials to be used in the
01:03:20 about materials to be used in the cladding system and he said this he said other than the cavity barriers being an important part of that
01:03:26 of that i don't recall any specific conversations about topics further to that
01:03:30 that that was at day 40 page one three eight line seven um so he's he's singling out the the this he's saying that there seemed to have been some conversations
01:03:41 seemed to have been some conversations about cavity barriers being an important part of the system do you recall having conversation with harley to that effect i can't remember a conversation but possibly there was there was talk of it when they'd done the sample in the first
01:03:52 when they'd done the sample in the first place
01:03:53 place of how it was to be fitted and what important part it was yeah did mr ben bailey or anyone else at harley ever give you or anyone else within osborne berry any
01:04:04 or anyone else within osborne berry any specific guidance in respect of how the cavity barriers were to be fitted no so is it is the position this that there was the mock-up
01:04:15 mock-up which had horizontal barriers in everyone was happy with that yeah the fitters were shown that and then they were asked to replicate it exactly yeah so no further instructions
01:04:26 exactly yeah so no further instructions were given about the cavity barriers other than just seeing that mock-up
01:04:40 um now mr osborne um explained to us yesterday that when the mock-up was done um it was realized that the horizontal cavity barriers needed to be raised to
01:04:52 cavity barriers needed to be raised to make sure that they didn't penetrate the edpm membrane do you have a recollection of that i do remember marx explains me that that's the position he he got them in
01:05:03 he got them in was to raise him up to rather than penetrate the epdm yeah but i'm sure he discussed it with some of them hard to say that had to be raised up and that was the reason why yeah does that mean that it wasn't you having those discussions those
01:05:15 having those discussions those discussions were mark osborne yeah i remember mark done the mock-up and then i was working another part of the building then when it was complete went and checked to see what he'd done and he explained to me that he raised
01:05:26 and he explained to me that he raised out because that and obviously spoke to highly about it as well yeah they agreed with the same scenario that had to be raised as well yeah yeah so you were hearing from mr osborne about the raising up you didn't ever discuss that directly yourself with
01:05:37 discuss that directly yourself with anyone at harley no
01:05:41 and in practice um how did you measure where the cavity barriers should go i mean how did you know how high up to
01:05:52 i mean how did you know how high up to be installing from the original sample we'd done there was a set measurement off that and that's how it worked off the rest of the building
01:05:59 building i see so does that mean that as part of the mock-up exercise they would have raised or your understanding was they raised up the cavity barrier on the original mock-up yourself yeah
01:06:11 on the original mock-up yourself yeah so once they've raised it up we're happy with the mock-up measurements are then taken and then distributed to the rest of you is that correct that's great yeah yeah thank you
01:06:23 have you yourself had a chance to consider
01:06:26 consider the parts of dr lane's report which highlight poor workmanship in the installation of the cavity barriers for example horizontal cavity barriers installed in the vertical position
01:06:37 installed in the vertical position poorly fitting and cut cavity bearers with rough edges and gaps or cavity barriers cut around cladding rails creating gaps have you seen this i have seen dutch language report yeah
01:06:48 report yeah do you agree that those photographs appear to show that there was poor workmanship in the installation of the cavity barriers on site from the pictures i've seen yeah i've seen them particular ones
01:06:59 seen yeah i've seen them particular ones here
01:07:00 here did you ever notice that on site i didn't know it's on site until now can you help us as to how it might have come about that we now have photographic evidence
01:07:12 that we now have photographic evidence of poorly fitting cavity barriers or cavity barriers in the wrong orientation and that wasn't picked up on site can you help us as to how that situation might have arisen i can't see how it's arisen because of the other checks that
01:07:23 arisen because of the other checks that people come in after we've installed the stuff ourselves there was checks after we've installed all their stuff on the building anyway the insulation the fire breaks as such yeah i can't see
01:07:34 i can't see how that got missed to be fair and just can you help us who is it you understood would have checked the cavity barriers in the insulation before the panels were
01:07:45 before the panels were being installed as far as i'm aware it was ben bailey right mr osborne explained yesterday that would would often be only a small time
01:07:57 would often be only a small time gap between installing the cavity barrier and then putting in the insulation boards around it do you agree with that yeah but there would have been times where
01:08:08 would have been times where lunch times or at the end of the day there would have been areas open that weren't
01:08:13 weren't completed as such which someone could inspect at that time there was never ever a time where someone would have been up the building every area was completely finished yeah so yeah so is it your evidence that
01:08:24 so yeah so is it your evidence that in your view there would have been plenty of opportunities in practice for anyone inspecting that work to have seen
01:08:32 seen the quality of the cavity barrier installation before the insulation was put on
01:08:37 put on on as well yeah yeah
01:08:44 ben bailey said he found the pictures in dr lane's report shocking would you agree with that i would agree that yeah now i'm not going to take you to all the pictures uh in dr lane's report because
01:08:56 pictures uh in dr lane's report because just given the answers you've given but what i do want to ask you about a little bit more is this point about horizontal cavity barriers installed in the vertical position
01:09:06 position if we can just look at a photograph of that in dr lane's report this is blas 608 page 48. if we can just blow this up
01:09:21 608 page 48. if we can just blow this up this is figure 8.52 of dr lane's first report in phase one and what we can see here is she's highlighted an rh a horizontal cavity barrier
01:09:33 an rh a horizontal cavity barrier installed in the vertical position and we can also see that it's been installed with the intumescent strip facing into the building do you see that yeah did you ever see
01:09:44 do you see that yeah did you ever see any um
01:09:45 any um examples of that while you were on site i didn't know
01:09:52 had you seen that installed in that way what would you have done replaced it taking it off and replaced it with the the correct one [Applause]
01:10:04 [Applause] if we can just look at another photograph this is from the bre report that they did for the met police i didn't look at this photograph yesterday but i want to today it's met met3039807
01:10:18 met met3039807 and i want to look at page 52.
01:10:24 so this is a report that the bre did for the met it's dated i think it's february 2019 and it's once the bre had finished its site inspection work after the fire
01:10:37 site inspection work after the fire and here we've got figure 34 and they've got under the in the caption under the bottom open state cavity bearer being used as a closed state barrier in store with intumescent strip
01:10:49 barrier in store with intumescent strip facing concrete do you see that there yeah
01:10:52 yeah and if we look at the paragraph below
01:10:56 this the bre say this vertical cavity berries were installed on columns which coincided with compartment walls and on corner columns these appeared to be re to have been
01:11:07 these appeared to be re to have been intended as conventional closed state cavity barriers wherein the mineral wool construction of the cavity barrier ought to be compressed between the surfaces of the cavity
01:11:17 cavity the vertical cavity barriers removed were cydia eyes lamithum rh 25 i.e the same barriers used at horizontal locations as mentioned above these barriers
01:11:28 as mentioned above these barriers designed as open state barriers but here being
01:11:31 being improperly used as closed date barriers comprise a foil face and intumescent strip sealing the leading edge do you see that there i do yeah so dr lane's investigation that she did
01:11:43 lane's investigation that she did after the fire and the bre's investigations both indicated that they were finding vertical cavity barriers which were horizontal
01:11:55 horizontal and not true full um fulfill vertical cavity barriers can you help us as to how that situation might have come about i can't explain it to be fair
01:12:06 can't explain it to be fair because they were two different products installed in two different areas on the on the site itself
01:12:16 is it possible that some of the fitters some of the installers working for osborne berry were left to their own devices when they were fitting these barriers and installed
01:12:27 these barriers and installed horizontal in the vertical position without there being any checks of that most the time we were always on site looking at what people are doing on various master times around the building
01:12:38 various master times around the building so
01:12:39 so i can't see how it has happened but i can't see how it would have happened as such yeah
01:12:46 such yeah was there any specific instruction or training given to the installers when the vertical cavity barriers arrived you say that that was later
01:12:54 later you didn't have those to start with do you recall actually talking to them saying right these are different these are different they were completely different palettes stored in the different location on site yeah and you could see
01:13:06 location on site yeah and you could see the complete difference once i say one had the black strip on the front the other one didn't at all so we did say these are the vertical ones these are horizontal ones yeah and the same thing again we've done trained on done a mock-up we showed him how the
01:13:17 done a mock-up we showed him how the mock-up was done and then explained that that was
01:13:19 that was a repetitive thing really burned again from there yeah
01:13:24 and can you help us about this if if as we see
01:13:28 we see some horizontal barriers have been installed in the vertical position wouldn't that mean that at some point you might have run out of horizontal barriers no because they would have been fitted first
01:13:40 would have been fitted first before the vertical ones i see because they're just a little bit puzzled as to how you would have enough horizontal barriers to have installed them
01:13:50 them horizontally and then to have had some left to be installing vertically as some appear to have been because done in that way like i said before the horizontal ones were always fitted first on the whole building prior to the
01:14:01 on the whole building prior to the vertical ones anyway
01:14:05 well then i'm slightly surprised you had enough horizontal ones left over to use them as verticals i can't explain why there was more left over maybe when
01:14:16 why there was more left over maybe when you buy a x amount of that you get a pallet full of it or something i don't know
01:14:20 know i can't remember right okay
01:14:25 do you agree that the works we've seen in these photographs and then the works you've said you've already looked at dr lane's photographs do you agree that those works were unacceptable and not carried out with reasonable skill
01:14:37 not carried out with reasonable skill and care they were unacceptable yeah
01:14:41 cavity barriers around windows perhaps if i can just do this short topic and then we could break that'll be a convenient moment um at the time you were working on the grenfell project were you aware that
01:14:53 grenfell project were you aware that there was extensive industry guidance including in something called a approved document b which indicated that cavity barriers had to be installed around window openings in order to comply with the building
01:15:04 in order to comply with the building regulations no
01:15:08 how do you ever in any other previous projects
01:15:12 projects installed cavity barriers around windows no had you ever installed mineral wool or rockwool compressed around
01:15:23 compressed around window openings no
01:15:28 had you ever heard at the time of a pre-document be on fire safety no or looked at any of the diagrams in it no
01:15:38 it no did you notice at the time that there were no
01:15:42 were no cavity barriers around the windows at grenfell tower i didn't know because we followed the drawings we were supplied and we fitted it to that them drawings were you surprised that there was no
01:15:53 were you surprised that there was no mechanism around the sides of the windows
01:15:57 windows for inhibiting the passage of fire around the edges or the head or the sill of the windows were you surprised about that no because it's similar sort of
01:16:06 of design work we've done previous products before right did you ever have any discussions with anybody on site about the fact there weren't any cavity
01:16:17 about the fact there weren't any cavity barriers or other form of fire stopping around the windows no
01:16:25 mr chairman i think that would be a good name yeah we're doing well but i think it would be a sensible to break now yeah and then hopefully i can finish my correct remaining questions fairly speedily and then we'll have the final break
01:16:36 break right thank you well um mr berry we're going to have a short break now um we'll come back at 25 to 12 please and while you're out of the room
01:16:47 please and while you're out of the room i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it okay all right thank you very much now if you go to the usher
01:16:55 usher uh who's down there
01:17:08 right 25 thank you
01:35:38 yes would you ask mr berry to come back in please
01:35:52 right ready to carry on mr berry yes good thank you yes great yes thank you just a couple of questions arising from your evidence this morning you told us that the horizontal cavity
01:36:03 you told us that the horizontal cavity barriers were installed sometime before the cavity barriers on the vertical columns yeah can i just clarify one thing about that does that mean that you left there were horizontal barriers going
01:36:14 there were horizontal barriers going round the columns weren't there as well as vertical ones yes well those horizontal ones on the columns also left till later they were yeah yeah so you basically get the spandrels done
01:36:25 basically get the spandrels done first then later you come back to the columns is that right horizontally and vertical at the same time yeah yeah horizontal and vertical at the same time on the column as you're going up the building from bottom to top yeah on the columns yes
01:36:37 bottom to top yeah on the columns yes yes
01:36:38 yes i see and then i think you also referred to the fact that there was a a second mock-up in which the vertical cavity barriers were shown is that correct yes it's fallen
01:36:49 correct yes it's fallen um did you yourself see that second mock-up yes yeah and and what steps were taken to ensure that installers saw it and were given
01:37:01 installers saw it and were given instruction about say the difference between the horizontal and the vertical barriers and how the vertical barriers should be fitted the same as we've done with the original horizontal one we
01:37:11 one we took them all over there explains how we how we're doing things and then took them onto the mast climbers on the other side of the buildings and done our own sample and showed them as we went up how to do it on the same mass climber
01:37:21 climber yeah and then they were then moved to the master plan for size and worked alongside as we went out the buildings i see and would you be keeping a close eye on them when you were on an adjacent mass climber yeah yeah great
01:37:34 climber yeah yeah great so now just a few more questions on that same topic really about supervision and training
01:37:39 training um if we look at osborne berry's position statement this is osb 7084 at paragraph seven
01:37:53 so there um you say you began work around the end of august 14 and completed it around june 16 and in the second sentence osbornberry did not subcontract the work however they used normally 8
01:38:06 however they used normally 8 up to 14 self-employed fitters throughout the installation process you see that there yeah and on what terms were the self-employed fitters engaged by osborne
01:38:17 self-employed fitters engaged by osborne berry
01:38:17 berry they on a day work basis only right
01:38:23 and is it correct that the company usually recruited its fitters by way of an agency
01:38:29 an agency sometimes we have reasons in the past and on grenfell we did as well yeah yeah what steps would you take to satisfy yourself or what step did you take on the grenfell project to satisfy
01:38:40 take on the grenfell project to satisfy yourself
01:38:41 yourself of the installers competence and suitability for the work prior to them beginning any install is this the guys from the agencies or the other guys well if it's different tell
01:38:52 other guys well if it's different tell us about both there's no difference of such as whoever comes to psi we didn't put them with either me or mark or someone who's been on there a while who's confident enough to do the job and then
01:39:03 confident enough to do the job and then they'd take them on under their wing and show them what to do as well is that with the agency staff agency would've been the same as well yeah exactly the same yeah i see
01:39:14 did you have a means of recording who was working on the project at any particular time
01:39:20 we didn't we had a site diary just putting names down where they were working on some elevations and stuff but there was a um from riders themselves they would have had a excuse me uh every time you went for the
01:39:33 excuse me uh every time you went for the site you had a fingerprint scanner so that would have been recorded on nest as well how many people on site and who was on site as well i see now if we can look at an email at this point this is osb 7080
01:39:52 this is an email much later in time in fact it's after the grenfell tower of fire
01:39:57 fire it's headed training it's from ray bailey to you on the 8th of august 2017 and he says hi bears as part of our qa system is that quality assurance system
01:40:09 system is that quality assurance system is that how you would understand that we need cscs and train course details for all of your operatives and has enclosed a chart that we use on a previous project to give you a start
01:40:21 a start where he's referring there to cscs is that construction skills certification scheme that's correct yeah details yep um now
01:40:34 did you ever get a request for similar information on the grenfell project we can see here that in august 2017 you're being asked by ray bailey to provide those details
01:40:46 provide those details but did you have to provide them on the grenfell project no when did the change come about it's the first time i've received something from ray about this situation as such
01:40:57 ray about this situation as such right and what project was this for can you help us i can't remember the project or such or what it was involved with as such but um
01:41:08 involved with as such but um i mean reading the email now i can obviously it got sent to me but i can't remember it 100 but yeah yeah
01:41:16 if you had received such a request during the grenfell project would you have been able to provide cscs and train
01:41:23 and train course details for all of your operatives yeah because you can't go on site without a css card yeah to work on a site as such anyway so you know
01:41:32 you know css guys go on site to work yeah and what about i think he means training course details does he there would train course details could possibly be on the training as such yeah yeah
01:41:43 yeah but most of the time it was on each particular job we've done the training on site because every job is just slightly different but training courses can be either ice path tickets um plasma tickets which
01:41:55 ice path tickets um plasma tickets which is down to um tower scaffolds or the ipaf tickets for mast uh not master climate scissor lifts or cherry pickers and such yeah um
01:42:08 so is it right then if you'd been asked to provide training course details for all your operatives on the grenfell project you wouldn't have been able to do that because they were trained on site yeah but plus we had trained on site
01:42:19 yeah but plus we had trained on site from
01:42:21 from harley themselves for asbestos awareness course
01:42:24 course and we had one on there for a harness course as well for a harness course okay that was on the grenfell one itself yeah if we can now turn to another email thread this is osb
01:42:36 thread this is osb 7053 at page two and i want to pick it up at the bottom of page three and on to page four so this is an email
01:42:50 so this is an email thread which is in relation to the grenfell
01:42:53 grenfell project um it's from you i think to jason maher um and is it right that he was from total site is that what it's called yeah yeah about
01:43:04 is that what it's called yeah yeah about labor on the grenfell project yes yeah and if we look so we can see on the 20th of august 2015 you sent the email and if
01:43:13 and if we look at the next top of the next page for what you said you say um on the rates can we negotiate at
01:43:21 at little i was hoping to pay 15 pound for a fitter and 13 pound for a fitter's mate do you see that there yeah i do yeah can you just explain to us the distinction between a fitter and a
01:43:32 distinction between a fitter and a fitter's mate a fitter is a person who can fit the stuff in the building and a fitter's mate is literally helping him lift stuff on and hold things while he fix it yeah that's what it's just a
01:43:43 fix it yeah that's what it's just a term in the traders that's a fitter's mate i see and you'd have both employed on the grenfell project would you yes yeah
01:43:53 yes yeah then at page two if we follow this email chain through a little bit at page two at the bottom of the page mr maher
01:44:02 maher writes to you on the 21st of august at 1419 and it's about labor requirements and then i'm afraid we have to go to the top of the next page to see what he said
01:44:13 what he said he says both fixes are sorted but struggling with the mates do you just want me to keep looking do you see that there yeah and then if we can move up page two
01:44:24 yeah and then if we can move up page two to your reply to that it's at 16 37 yep so on the 21st of august do you say this back to him i don't mind if they're not fitters mate
01:44:36 fitters mate the only thing is if i don't have four extra people on site monday i'm in real trouble with the md of the company i'm working for at the moment you can always change them over any time let me know how you get on thanks graeme
01:44:49 let me know how you get on thanks graeme now i just want to ask you a few things about that when you say in the first line i don't mind if they're not fitters mate do you mean you don't mind if they're not fitters mates
01:45:00 not fitters mates mates yeah yeah you're not saying i don't mind if they're not fitters and then calling him casually mate i didn't mind if they're not fitters mates yeah they were if there was four fitters turned up on sight yeah it wouldn't matter you were happy because it says
01:45:11 matter you were happy because it says like one that you can swap them over anyway
01:45:14 anyway yeah and when you say you can always change
01:45:19 change them over any time what do you mean change them over any time are you going from a fitter to a fitted mate
01:45:26 mate i see so you still keep a fitter on site but
01:45:29 but instead of paying for four fitters you'd have a fitters maintenance fitters working side by side with each other so were you saying that you would change a fitter down to a fitter's mate on site or the other way around if you had four fitters turn up on side
01:45:41 if you had four fitters turn up on side yeah then you swap them back to the two fitters and then two fitters mates that's really the first size okay
01:45:51 did you ever engage labor on the project who you didn't think had the right skills required to do the job were you ever forced into that position in reality i'm aware of now
01:46:03 in reality i'm aware of now if we complete this email chain and we go to the top of page one towards the bottom of page one on the 26th of august yep 2015 at 13 50.
01:46:15 2015 at 13 50. he replied he replies i have replaced all four
01:46:18 all four guys regards and then at the top of play do you thank him what does he mean by i've replaced all
01:46:29 what does he mean by i've replaced all all four guys there don't don't recall to be fair you don't know no
01:46:36 no so you can't recall whether some individuals were replaced for others i can't recall to be fair and some of it was done by email and other times it was done by a phone only as well so we might have had a conversation and he
01:46:48 we might have had a conversation and he just replies an email later on just to fight it so yeah yeah did you ever have cause
01:46:54 cause to say that you didn't want any particular fitters or fitters mates to return back to site because you were concerned about the quality of their work
01:47:01 work i can't recall anything like that no if we um could turn up this is har3010913
01:47:14 [Applause] this is harley's method statement for the installation of the cladding system did you ever see a document like this on the grenfell project
01:47:25 project i can't remember seeing it but it might have been on site as such yeah i see um this one is dated the 5th of january 2015 we get that from the bottom left corner on that page
01:47:38 bottom left corner on that page and if we turn to page two at the top of the document
01:47:44 and it's got persons involved in that you see in the table at the top the second line down in the gray is persons involved
01:47:52 involved and it's got rob maxwell um contracts manager and then the line below is osborne berry installations and it says they're experienced trained operatives
01:48:04 operatives yeah do you see that there now did you always engage experienced and trained operatives on the grenfell project yes
01:48:16 were you ever short of fitters or fitters mates such that you did end up having people on site that perhaps it wasn't ideal to have there but you just had to because
01:48:27 but you just had to because circumstances forced that no if you can now turn to tmo one triple zero nine nine six two
01:48:43 this is a site inspection report that's been put together by john rowan and partners can you see that yeah and it we can see that the person that's actually written this is john
01:48:54 that's actually written this is john white we can see his name is under inspector there did you know john white during the time you worked on the project i don't recall his name as such no
01:49:05 i don't recall his name as such no were you ever aware of being introduced to a clerk of works or someone who might have i think i got into a clerk of works but i can't remember his name as such i see did you ever have an understanding of
01:49:17 did you ever have an understanding of what that person's role was on the project
01:49:20 project obviously just to maybe to check the quality of work and what was being done on the job itself
01:49:26 did did that person check the quality of your work as far as you understood it i don't recall i said i can't remember the guy
01:49:34 the guy this john white's name being brought up before in compensation on the site but maybe he did i don't know but you don't have a recollection of him checking your work some i
01:49:45 checking your work some i people have been up and checked our work from it was either um the council or the building inspector or whatever yeah times have been people go out there and expect network but again name-wise i'm
01:49:56 expect network but again name-wise i'm not sure
01:49:56 not sure yeah did you ever receive any site inspection reports like this during your time on the project not one like that no
01:50:06 now we can see in the comments if we look about halfway down this page in the last paragraph under comments we need to pan out yes there in the very last
01:50:19 yes there in the very last couple of lines there under the comments section it says the external cladding is still
01:50:23 still very behind instead of an increase in labor a decrease has happened with only two men on site further delays will occur do you see that there yeah now we're sorry we should have noted
01:50:34 now we're sorry we should have noted that this is a report dated the 11th of september 2015. um can you help us as to whether it's right that there are only two men on site fitting the cladding at this
01:50:45 on site fitting the cladding at this point
01:50:46 point i wouldn't have thought there'd only be two men on site ever to be fair no you don't accept that no do you ever recall recruiting extra fitters to try and catch up because
01:50:58 fitters to try and catch up because osborne berry was behind program not behind as such but the email to um the agency was to get extra labour on site just to because i think it was more to do the
01:51:08 to do the release of the mass climbs themselves yeah because they've done the north and the west first the naval east to east and eventually they released the mass club on the south elevation so once they released that you need the extra
01:51:19 they released that you need the extra men just to cover all their specs and all the mass climbs and such i see so there was an increasing demand for fitters as the project went on is that right start off low and then gradually built up over time
01:51:34 up over time [Music]
01:51:37 now in your second with the statement if we can just look at this on the topic of inspections if we look at page eight this is osb 6091 at page eight
01:51:49 6091 at page eight we can see there paragraph d at the bottom of the page you're asked in relation to the inspections how were those conducted how frequent were they and you say osborne berry were not
01:52:00 and you say osborne berry were not present when inspections by ryden and building control were carried and were not provided with any documents do you see that there i do yeah does that remain your evidence that you weren't present
01:52:11 your evidence that you weren't present when inspections by riding and building control were carried out i wasn't i wasn't no no
01:52:24 do you remember ever being provided with a defects list for grenfell tower by ryden that were defects that osborne berry had to rectify we had some from harley but i'm not too
01:52:35 we had some from harley but i'm not too sure if we had any evidence from ryden's and such no okay
01:52:42 and then just to be clear on on building control
01:52:46 control you refer at various points in your witness statement to the results of inspections by building control and the fact there were no issues reported to you just to be absolutely clear were you
01:52:57 just to be absolutely clear were you ever present during any inspections by rbkc building control offices
01:53:02 offices no so how did you get feedback in practice about what rbkc building control was saying in terms of their inspections it would have been for a training command that would be the
01:53:14 for a training command that would be the building inspector then speak to ryden's right and then speak to harley harley would speak to us yeah there's always a ladder system that sucks in place yeah if we can look at another site inspection report
01:53:26 inspection report if we go to ryd3082733
01:53:39 this is an inspection report this time dated the 16th of june 2015 again by john white and if we can look on
01:53:47 on page two towards the bottom of this page um the second entry from the bottom under review site inspection log building control
01:53:59 and in the very first line under the note part it says last building control site visit was the same as before friday 15th may 2015. the only observation was that further details of
01:54:11 observation was that further details of the cladding fire breaks were required riding to confirm if they have done this now were you ever made aware during your work that
01:54:20 work that building control were wanting further details of the cladding fire breaks no no
01:54:30 [Applause] and just to be clear on building control you're quite clear are you that you never had any discussions with anybody who might have been from building control to the effect that
01:54:41 that the cladding system was compliant with the building regulations and had been fitted to many other buildings throughout england and wales
01:54:52 just my last topic now complaints i want to turn to an email this is ryd3038501
01:55:06 this is an email from simon o'connor ryden to ben bailey at harley you're not copied in here and simon
01:55:17 you're not copied in here and simon o'connor says afternoon ben i have concerns over a certain member of your staff on site brackets bez taft's partner following a number of complaints these comprise of knocking on windows
01:55:28 these comprise of knocking on windows asking for tea banging on people's windows to scare animals feeding the wrong information to residents saying it's all been put in the wrong way round because of ryden and hopefully it won't leak
01:55:39 and hopefully it won't leak a complete lack of respect for health and safety climbing across climbers dropping material on public footpaths to mention a few as you are aware we are tackling a difficult situation with residents as it
01:55:50 difficult situation with residents as it is
01:55:51 is and these sorts of comments and behaviours only adds fuel to the fire if i have one more incident on site with this individual then i will have no option but to remove him from site permanently and then regard simon o'connor now i
01:56:03 and then regard simon o'connor now i want to give you the chance to respond to this email we can see now that it appears to be about you yeah and your conduct on site and did you ever have these
01:56:16 and did you ever have these concerns communicated directly to you no so nobody from harley ever spoke to you about this i had an email from ray bailey about this email yeah that was it
01:56:27 that was it i replied to ray saying that i don't believe what the guy is saying and it wouldn't it's not in my nature to do this sort of stuff anyway i see did you ever speak to ben bailey sorry
01:56:36 sorry did you ever speak to ray bailey about this no i just sent him an email that night when he replied one to me and that was it when ben bailey was asked about this he said he spoke to the individual
01:56:47 said he spoke to the individual and said that the behavior was unacceptable do you agree with that he never spoke to me about this no
01:56:55 did you ever tell residents it's all been put in the wrong way around because of ryden and hopefully it won't leak no or anything similar to that not nothing till i know
01:57:08 on the part about a complete lack of respect for health and safety did you ever climb across climbers unfortunately i'm not stupid enough to climb across the climb when it's 10 or 12 or 15 floors happening i wouldn't be
01:57:19 12 or 15 floors happening i wouldn't be that
01:57:20 that stupid or naive to do that to be fair no do you know where they got that from where ryden got that from the only time we ever got over mars climber was when we worked in the roof area
01:57:29 area yeah where we took the marsh climbing to the very top of the roof had a harness on and we climbed over onto the main part of the roof with the harness clipped on and that was any part of
01:57:38 of it wasn't jumping it was more climbing out going back on doing our work and that was it what about dropping material on public footpaths
01:57:48 i don't recall anything like that happening at all but people are human beings there could be an instance where someone's dropped a screw or not but not me personally or anything like that and there was never anything major recorded on
01:57:59 recorded on stuff like anyway so can you can you explain how they might have thought
01:58:06 thought that you were involved in such activities i can't no no
01:58:14 were you ever reprimanded or spoken to at any stage about showing a disregard for health and safety on site no if you did you'd get a warning and a yellow card first and then
01:58:26 yellow card first and then eventually if you were carrying on this this manner that he's talking about you'd be
01:58:31 you'd be showing a red card and removed from site anyway
01:58:35 anyway i think we might have the email that you were just referring to if we could go to har30s 13714
01:58:53 um and i think we can see that this email does appear to have been forwarded to you
01:58:58 to you and there's your reply at the bottom of the page
01:59:03 the page um sorry at the bottom of the page it's ray bailey to you yeah and he's saying bears i don't believe that this is true but we need to be squeaky clean and ultra professional we've got the job under control and we don't want to give residents any
01:59:14 don't want to give residents any opportunity to complain ryden are our biggest customer ray and then your reply at the top is we've not been any of these things at all
01:59:24 all i don't understand any of this stuff we've been accused of if there is a problem ryden's always come and speak to us
01:59:30 us we're always polite and professional to all people thanks beth so is that the email that you were just referring to yeah
01:59:39 just one more question going back to the mock-ups that we were talking about can you help us as to whether it was your understanding that building control had seen
01:59:50 control had seen both of the mock-ups the one with just the horizontal cavity barriers and then the one with vertical cavity barriers installed as well sure they did both them yeah
02:00:02 them yeah and when you say i'm sure they did both of them yeah is that because you were told that they'd seen and inspected both of those i can't recall the exact conversation but it would have been
02:00:13 but it would have been both would have been inspected at different stages and they've proved it oh yeah and you think inspected by building control do you yeah okay mr chairman i've come to the
02:00:24 yeah okay mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions right um so if we could have a maybe a 10 minute break yes right to sweep up thank you well mr very misgranges as you heard think she's asked all the questions that she needed
02:00:36 asked all the questions that she needed to ask you but she needs an opportunity just to check and sometimes we have questions sent in by other people who are watching the proceedings so we'll have a 10-minute break we'll
02:00:47 have a 10-minute break we'll come back at 10 past 12 and see if there's any more questions we need to put you then okay all right if you'd like to give the usher and i don't think you'll have much of a chance to talk to anyone else but please
02:00:58 chance to talk to anyone else but please don't take it if you do okay thank you thank you
02:01:11 um i'll say ten past two thank you yeah if you find that you need more time then we'll say thank you
02:11:10 yes would you ask mr berry to come back please
02:11:23 all right mr berry we'll see if miss grange has found any more questions for you ms grange just one question um can you help us when the mock-up was first done on the exterior that you
02:11:34 was first done on the exterior that you talked about um of the of the panels on the spandrels do you know whether the interior of the flat was also being mocked up at the same time can you help
02:11:45 mocked up at the same time can you help us on that i think because we were on the exterior of the building we didn't see anything when the
02:11:51 when the the mock-up was first on the inside to be fair yeah it was more our side of things was a mock-up in the outside of the weed done yeah and the inside was a you know different department to us what we were yeah thank you we're just
02:12:02 we were yeah thank you we're just trying to pin down the time when that mock-up might have happened
02:12:08 that's it thank you very much well mr berry those are all the questions we have for you um it just remains to me to thank you very much for coming to give your evidence
02:12:16 evidence it's been very helpful to hear from you so we're very grateful and now you're free to go lovely thank you thank you very much you'd like to go with the usher she'll look after you
02:12:38 my name is granger we have another witness i think yes mr mark dixon and we just need ten minutes or so to two minutes to do some cleaning the housekeeping yes well we'll rise you send someone to
02:12:49 well we'll rise you send someone to confections when you're ready thank you thank you very much
02:25:44 yes we're strange now we haven't yet mr mark dixon please yes please
02:26:07 yes i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
02:26:10 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr dixon sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
02:26:26 yes for strange yes thank you mr dixon thank you very much for coming to give evidence today we really appreciate it if you've got any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you
02:26:38 understanding anything i'm asking you please ask me to repeat the question or put the point in a different way and can you please try and keep your voice up nice and clear so that the lady sitting to your right can take a clear note of your evidence
02:26:52 can take a clear note of your evidence now you've made one witness statement for the inquiry if i can take you to that that's a sdp
02:27:00 50196 it's dated the 26th of september 2019 and if we go on to page 11 of it
02:27:09 we can see there the date and is that your signature correct and have you read that statement recently yes and can you confirm that the contents are true correct thank you now you've also
02:27:20 correct thank you now you've also provided three statements to the met police i'm going to bring each of those up and then just ask you about those um so the first is met three zeros five six six nine six
02:27:38 it's dated the 18th of december 2017. can you see that there i can and i think in this
02:27:47 in this statement you provide certain um exhibits to the met police then if we can pull up that's just one short statement on one page if we can pull out the
02:27:58 on one page if we can pull out the second met statement that's met3056694
02:28:07 this statement is dated the 20th of december 2018 and again it's a very short one-page statement where you exhibit certain folders um
02:28:18 exhibit certain folders um for the met police and then if we can turn up to the third statement that's met305
02:28:29 that's dated the 19th of march 2018 and it's a longer statement now have you read those statements those met police statements recently certainly i believe the longer one i have shorter ones possibly not yeah fine
02:28:42 have shorter ones possibly not yeah fine can you confirm that their contents are true
02:28:45 true okay yeah um the statements are all in a folder sorry i should have said on your desk in front of you if ever you want to refer to them um have you discussed your evidence with
02:28:56 um have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no okay so i want to start with some questions first about your background and experience um it's right isn't it that you've worked in the construction industry
02:29:07 worked in the construction industry since 1986. yes i have and before becoming a director and shareholder of sd plastering is it right that you worked for ryden
02:29:16 for ryden for nine years i did yes and is it right that at ryden you worked in various managerial roles including project manager
02:29:23 manager and contracts manager i did and is it right that there you oversaw major refurbishment schemes including replacing windows yes i did
02:29:34 including replacing windows yes i did you tell us in paragraph 12 of your statement that you joined sd plastering in 2005
02:29:40 in 2005 and there you've overseen dry lining and refurbishment projects for them since that time is that right i have yes and is it right the sd plastering is a construction company that
02:29:51 is a construction company that undertakes among other things dry lining plastering and general building works we're predominantly a dry lining yeah director and then what we do is we take on refurbishment works and another works
02:30:03 on refurbishment works and another works are kind of put in front of us but that the main core that the uh the company is certainly dry lining
02:30:08 lining great thank you now is it right that at the time that sd plastering was engaged by ryden to conduct
02:30:17 conduct works at grenfell tower you were also a director and shareholder of sdp training solutions limited is that correct
02:30:26 correct can we just look at what you say about that paragraph nine of your statement this is an sdp 50196 page 2.
02:30:37 so there we see in the first few lines you explained that you were a director and shareholder of this training solutions company and then you say the training company provided
02:30:48 say the training company provided 10 to 16 week training courses for individuals that wanted to work in the construction industry ryden construction limited had obtained funding to enroll a number of individuals on one of the training
02:30:59 individuals on one of the training companies courses some of the participants enrolled on the training courses provided by the training company will have been involved in carrying out dry lining and plastering works to the lower floors at grenfell tower we see
02:31:11 lower floors at grenfell tower we see that there yes now just on that were you an instructor on those courses uh
02:31:18 uh no so who was providing the instruction for that training that would have been rod shepard who'd been one of the other directors right did you yourself ever attend that training so you knew what the training
02:31:29 training so you knew what the training was that was being given yeah i did i certainly had a very good understanding of what was going to be carried out did that training involve any training on fire safety in construction and design for example
02:31:42 in construction and design for example around issues of complementation fire spread combustible materials it may have briefly touched on it but it certainly wasn't part of the criteria to particularly do that this was more to do with general building work giving them a
02:31:54 with general building work giving them a scope of what we did overall and really just trying to encourage individuals to come into our industry yeah i see did such courses ever cover the legal requirements around say fire
02:32:06 the legal requirements around say fire safety and construction would it have covered anything to do with that no there was no there was nothing specific that said this is you you need to be totally aware of this no this was an introductory course so
02:32:18 no this was an introductory course so although it may have touched on or rod may have said something that was going on uh at that time and said well you just need to sometimes look at this and look at that
02:32:27 that they wouldn't have been in enough depth to be able to say to them you've got to have a total understanding at this point because they weren't really taking a direct one direct line into construction it was
02:32:39 one direct line into construction it was about an overview yes i understand do you think that the cause would have um mentioned the building regulations and and in broad terms what those requirements if it had done it would have been fleeting yeah okay
02:32:53 fleeting yeah okay do you know which ryden personnel who worked on the grenfell tower refurbishment actually attended the courses
02:33:01 uh i don't have a list so i can i can confirm that no okay fine and then prior to sd plastering's involvement on the refurbishment did you yourself know mr lawrence at
02:33:13 did you yourself know mr lawrence at ryden yes
02:33:14 ryden yes yep what about mr simon o'connor yes and mr osgood daniel osgood yes i know daniel as well and did you know them well i mean as a former colleague were you yeah i
02:33:25 former colleague were you yeah i mentored two of them you mented i i meant to both um simon and simon o'connor simon o'connor and simon lawrence right when i was when i was still at ryan's and and the purpose of that
02:33:36 ryan's and and the purpose of that mentoring what kind of mentoring were you providing to them well the fact that they fell under my my management so i would have guided them as they were coming through so like everybody anybody that worked under
02:33:47 like everybody anybody that worked under one of my teams i would have given them some sort of encouragement i've directed them fulfilling the role that i had at that time whether it be projects manager or contracts manager yep and mr david hughes of ryden has
02:33:58 yep and mr david hughes of ryden has also said in his witness statement that he's known you since your time as a site manager and contracts manager at ryden is that right yeah i think david's probably one of the people i've known longest yeah
02:34:09 yeah now can you help us does sd plastering have any relationship with a company called sd
02:34:14 called sd carpentry limited no no so they're completely separate entities yeah so i'm now going to ask you some questions about when sd plastering was first approached by ryden
02:34:25 by ryden regarding work to the window surrounds it's that aspect of your works i'm going to focus on we know that sdp also did some works on the lower floors at grenfell tower but we're not going to
02:34:36 at grenfell tower but we're not going to be interested in those today now if we can turn to page 3 of your witness statement to the inquiry sdp 50196 and look at paragraph
02:34:48 sdp 50196 and look at paragraph 13 you say there that in all around april 2015 you asked by an employee of ryden whose identity i can't recall with certainty if sdp would provide a
02:35:00 certainty if sdp would provide a quotation
02:35:01 quotation for undertaking cosmetic works in finishing off the surrounds to newly installed windows in each residential unit at the grenfell tower i believe that this request would have been made
02:35:12 this request would have been made verbally during a conversation that took place on site sdpl having already secured a contract to undertake dry lining and plastering works
02:35:21 works um between myself and one or more of the following individuals so you list some individuals that you may have spoken to at that time is that right yeah and it may have been a combination of those people that i talked to as well that made me aware of that element of
02:35:32 that made me aware of that element of works
02:35:33 works and just to be clear is it right that sdp were already doing some works at the tower on the lower floors at this point yeah we were initially were engaged to carry out works to the remodeling section of the lower floors
02:35:46 how sure are you that this was in april 2015. how sure are you of the date there um not not not exactly but i certainly through the other documents i've read now
02:35:58 i've read now um that this was all taking place between april and may right i believe so there was a so originally when i did this it was around about april i think i may have had an initial conversation yeah but reading all the other documents and the
02:36:09 all the other documents and the correspondence have now been given to me it's clear that it was more towards may and the end of may i think right yes can i look at a ride an email at this point this is an internal write
02:36:20 at this point this is an internal write an email
02:36:24 ryd3032519
02:36:31 now this is not an email that you would have seen at the time but if we look at the top it's an email from simon lawrence to adam marriott who was also from ryden
02:36:42 to adam marriott who was also from ryden is that correct did you know mr marriott yes yes
02:36:45 yes yes and it's copying in zach maynard and simon o'connor also at ryden and the subject is grenfell internal window trimming and boxing works do you see that there i do and if we look at the second
02:36:58 i do and if we look at the second bullet down
02:37:02 on this page what he says is this he says mark dixon has been to sight to look at the works but hasn't provided a price yet i've spoken to him this morning he has a few ideas on design and how to improve
02:37:14 few ideas on design and how to improve things
02:37:15 things i've told him to price on the installation as per the show flat with us
02:37:19 us providing materials just so you can get a comparison against others if he is in the mix then we can look look him providing materials design etc for him to price he needs a proper
02:37:31 for him to price he needs a proper inquiry to be sent by yourself so he knows exactly what is required so do you see that there yeah so it would appear that
02:37:42 yeah so it would appear that you've been to site to look at the works but haven't provided a price yet can you help us do you think this would have been for the interior windows surrounds
02:37:51 surrounds in february 2015. yeah again i've like you say i've never seen this email before and i'm not quite sure the context i certainly don't remember going back as far as this but then even
02:38:02 going back as far as this but then even when i was trying to pin the day down of april
02:38:05 april that was a little bit guesswork there are no diaries to tell us where it was and it may well been that in one of my visits someone has said can you just favor just have a quick look at this
02:38:12 this yeah and see what you do obviously my background being that it is with ryden's and i have worked in kind of different parts of reverb is that i can normally give some sort of guidance or shed some light on perhaps
02:38:24 guidance or shed some light on perhaps an idea
02:38:25 an idea that might make life easier yeah i see and where he's referring there to um i've spoken to him this morning he's got a few ideas on design and how to improve things
02:38:36 things told enterprise on the installation as per the show flat do you think that that was the show flat flat 145 where they'd done a mock-up i'm pretty sure that was the only show flower i see there was only one show
02:38:47 flower i see there was only one show flat
02:38:47 flat i'm fairly confident it was one show for them yeah that's helpful now we'll come in a bit more detail to
02:38:58 now we'll come in a bit more detail to what you saw at the show flat in a moment
02:39:01 moment um if we can now turn up um
02:39:08 ryd3035207
02:39:14 this is a site progress report um that ryden prepared and it's dated march 2015 and again i'm not suggesting you would have necessarily seen this
02:39:25 you would have necessarily seen this document but i want to ask you something about
02:39:28 about um what's in it in the middle of the first page paragraph one if we can look down the page
02:39:36 page can you see there are some numbered paragraphs in the middle after the first lot of boxes it says this
02:39:43 this so this is march 2015 it says it is proving difficult to source window trimming subcontractor harley's an sd carpentry are too expensive
02:39:53 expensive and sd plastering are not interested and then everglades and fairview are being approached order now critical to avoid delay for program now looking at that
02:40:05 now looking at that is it right that at this point sd plastering so you had said that you weren't interested in those works no i think i think what the comment there i think what it actually means is
02:40:16 there i think what it actually means is when someone says to me can you do this the first thing i look at is resource yeah and if i don't have the resource i'm not going to say yeah give it to me and then i'll i'll make your life a misery i would have probably said i'm going to struggle
02:40:27 have probably said i'm going to struggle to resource this at this point in time so i've still got all these other works to complete i'll leave that with somebody else see and that's probably why the lack of interest
02:40:36 interest and do you think that you expressed that lack of interest after you'd seen the show flat or before you'd gone into the show flat probably on a few occasions it wouldn't have been on one occasion it would have
02:40:47 have been on one occasion it would have probably been just me constantly reassessing it and said if i've gone there on a day and i was running about and everybody caught me said i need you to come and look at this i said i probably haven't got time to do that so but it is just assessing where we sit
02:40:59 so but it is just assessing where we sit as far as delivery that's what kind of the main factor so do you recall being asked on multiple occasions whether you would be happy to take on this work no i don't really recall but i know through process that i would have
02:41:10 through process that i would have probably been asked several times
02:41:14 and can you help us as to what changed such that you did subsequently put in a quotation for that work for the exact reason that they kind of said there that they were they were struggling to get someone to do it
02:41:25 struggling to get someone to do it they needed the confidence whoever could deliver it could deliver it correctly in the right time scale and i think probably when they come back to me the circumstances on site would have changed slightly and i said okay
02:41:36 changed slightly and i said okay then i'll try and help out yeah now i said i'd come on to it the meeting at the pilot flat flat 145 and if we can turn up at this
02:41:47 flat 145 and if we can turn up at this point paragraph 17 of your inquiry statement that's sdp 50196 page four
02:41:57 so here i think what you're describing at this point is when you looked at the example windows surround with and you go on to talk about members of the management team
02:42:09 of the management team so you say the example window surround consisted of a number of pieces of plastic soffit and fascia board that had been attached to the window reveal cylinder header one of the management team explained that they were not happy
02:42:21 team explained that they were not happy with the standard of finish that had been achieved because amongst other things the plastic soffit and fascia boards were prone to boeing do you see that there yes and can i clear
02:42:32 i clear you're then describing your visit to the show flat are you the pilot flat here yeah i i'm pretty sure that's where i got the recollection is i remember those conversations i can't remember if they came before or
02:42:44 i can't remember if they came before or after or during that visit yeah and where are you referring and you refer to a number of times in your statement to the plastic soffit and fascia board is that what we know of as the the upvc
02:42:58 is that what we know of as the the upvc yes the windows the cover sections yes yeah
02:43:01 yeah and and that are they two different things the plastic soffit and face your board or are they it was pretty much the same product on every elevation
02:43:09 elevation yeah thank you
02:43:12 and here you're describing um
02:43:17 meeting the management team we'll come on to that in a moment is it right though that mr cole of sd plastering also attended this meeting with you i believe he would have done yes yeah and is it right that mr cole is an
02:43:29 and is it right that mr cole is an employee of sd plastering and he was sd plastering site manager for the grenfell tower refurbishment project for part of that project
02:43:36 project yes which part did he site manage how you would have managed exactly this part yeah and so you talk about meeting the management team is that various
02:43:47 management team is that various personnel at ryden that you met yeah again
02:43:50 again i think probably on the occasion of this it would have been simon o'connor it may have been two or three other different people in there as well and certainly while it was going on we may have seen more than one manager in there but i think it was i
02:44:03 in there but i think it was i think it was simon o'connor that would attended the first meeting but again it's quite a few years ago now and i can't quite remember which manager was with us
02:44:11 with us okay that's helpful does that mean you don't think it would have been simon lawrence at that stage um i'm gonna say no because i don't i can't imagine simon would have got involved in
02:44:22 imagine simon would have got involved in that meeting at that time yeah now we saw that you say there that one of the management team explained they were not happy with the standard of finish that had been achieved
02:44:33 finish that had been achieved um so you're actually inspecting an installation at this point aren't you i'm looking at what the aesthetics are i'm looking at what it looks like in the window and the most obvious thing is there's too many components in it
02:44:44 there's too many components in it but just to be just take it one step at a time they they had done a mock-up had they ryden's done a mock-up uh ryan's and whoever they'd asked to do that had done a mock-up yes and were you ever told of who'd put that
02:44:55 and were you ever told of who'd put that mock-up together no but since then again reading documentation afterwards i've seen i can't remember the company exactly that was put in but i have seen their name mentioned since then i see okay so it wasn't you it wasn't
02:45:07 i see okay so it wasn't you it wasn't sdp it certainly wasn't sdp
02:45:13 and you were being asked to comment on the quality of that example windows surround at that meeting were you no i don't think i was asked to comment on the quality i think what what their main frustration was that they'd already made their minds up the
02:45:24 made their minds up the the product itself was it was a bit there was too many elements to it so it was trying to simplify what it looked like so there was a lot of joins in it and then when you added pressure to some of
02:45:35 then when you added pressure to some of the sections you could clearly see that it
02:45:37 it wasn't supported at the back which means that you was getting these bowing in the seals
02:45:43 seals now just breaking that down you say there were a lot of joins in it do you mean a lot of joins in the ub vb bbc trimming around the edge there were lots of joins in that part yeah
02:45:54 yeah and you said that there wasn't support at the back what do you mean by that well meaning that the width of it so the cavity at the rear so when you fix these in place if it's supported underneath then there's
02:46:05 supported underneath then there's likelihood of a burrowing is not going to happen as long as you use the right fixing there but at the rear of it where obviously it butted the window where the cap was if you put pressure on it and what they were afraid of is the longevity of it
02:46:16 were afraid of is the longevity of it if you put pressure on it you could then move it which will just result eventually becoming dislodged so it was bowing at the back of the sill is that right i believe it was they were more concerned with the rear of the seal
02:46:31 with the rear of the sill what about the um the jams down the side and the head did was anyone concerned about the bowing there um the principles would have been the same but i think you need to remember that vertically you're putting less pressure
02:46:43 vertically you're putting less pressure on it than you are horizontally seals are traditionally used to put books and weights and and everything else on and to put your hands on whereas the vertical sides and certainly the head you're never going to touch the head
02:46:54 you're never going to touch the head yeah now looking at paragraph 8 18 there on that page and reading on in your statement you say andrew cole proceeded to dismantle the example windows surround to assess
02:47:06 the example windows surround to assess the manner in which it had been installed
02:47:08 installed we noted that the boeing occurred where the plastic soffit and fascia board spanned the gap as nothing had been used to bridge the gap in order to provide the necessary support
02:47:19 support to the plastic soffit and fascia board an edpm
02:47:22 an edpm gasket had been installed around the new window to create a weatherproof seal which meant it was not possible to see the interface between the new window unit
02:47:32 unit and the surrounding walls so we've got a good description there and the bowing that you're describing there is what you were just talking about just now is it yes
02:47:43 and is it right then that where there was the gap around the edges of the windows once you've gone beyond the old window frame
02:47:54 frame that on the mock-up that you saw at that point there was nothing at all underneath the upvc yeah that's my recollection of it but reading again an email further on simon lawrence
02:48:06 an email further on simon lawrence mentions actually when they did the mock-up they'd use some celetex to support
02:48:10 support um and to close that gap now that may have been on one of the other sample windows and the one that we exposed at that time
02:48:16 that time yeah and have it in so and hence why the bone was there i see yeah now if we can just look at mr cole's witness statement at this point if we go to that this is sdp 50220 at
02:48:29 if we go to that this is sdp 50220 at page 3.
02:48:37 and i want to look at paragraph 14 on that page
02:48:41 that page and what he says he says i recall that discussions took place between those individuals present at the meeting including the ryden employee about how the boeing could be resolved whilst i cannot remember who originally
02:48:52 whilst i cannot remember who originally came up with the idea it was suggested that the old aluminium window frame should be removed and that insulation board could be used to bridge the gap between the new window
02:49:03 to bridge the gap between the new window and the timber window surrounds to provide the support for the plastic soffit and fascia board i cannot recall anything being discussed about the type of insulation that would be used so do you see that
02:49:15 that would be used so do you see that there yes
02:49:18 do you agree with mr cole that it was at that meeting that somebody suggested that insulation could board could be used to bridge the gap and try and overcome the boeing issue
02:49:29 and try and overcome the boeing issue yeah i'd imagine there was half a dozen different scenarios that were discussed but that that was the one that was actually implemented do you think that it may have been you who made that suggestion
02:49:41 who made that suggestion uh it could have been but i can't remember okay in his oral evidence to the inquiry mr lawrence
02:49:48 lawrence suggested that this was a decision taken jointly by ryden and s d plastering would you agree with that it was certainly been discussed no one person takes a decision on their own it would have been between everybody but
02:50:00 would have been between everybody but again
02:50:00 again what we would have done was we would perhaps put an idea forward to be signed off by everybody else he agreed with the suggestion that the solution for remedying this issue was a
02:50:11 solution for remedying this issue was a bit of trial and error he said that on day 25 page 40 line 23 day for day 25 page 58 line four would you agree
02:50:23 page 58 line four would you agree that remedying that issue did involve a bit of trial and error possibly but some of that trial and error have already occurred by doing the actual first sample of it so it ever carried out the first one they may have
02:50:34 carried out the first one they may have carried out two or three different scenarios
02:50:35 scenarios as well yeah so that trial and error refers to it might not just be to us it may be to whoever code out the original sample yeah as far as you were concerned was there then a bit of a process of trial
02:50:46 there then a bit of a process of trial and error after this point in terms of doing another mock-up i don't i don't recall that it was i think pretty much it was uh i think the first time that
02:50:57 it was uh i think the first time that they tried this out by supporting the silverback by putting the insulation board in there under compression it was given the result that they wanted i see and when was that carried out uh
02:51:09 i see and when was that carried out uh that i'm unsure about but it is listed somewhere because i think there's also an email from daniel osgood talking about the show flat trying to get it ready and
02:51:17 ready and falling behind so it would have been a period between it before that but i couldn't give you the exact date yeah i think we might be coming on to to that okay um
02:51:29 in his evidence to the inquiry mr lawrence said that the choice of a solid insulation board was discussed at this point do you remember that i don't but possibly
02:51:42 was there any discussion or consideration at that meeting about how filling the gaps between the new windows and the old timber windows surrounds
02:51:50 surrounds in that manner might affect the compartmentation of the flat in terms of fire safety no was fire safety discussed at all no were you told anything at this point
02:52:03 no were you told anything at this point about
02:52:04 about what might be around the windows already as installed by harley no there was no discussion over the strategy
02:52:15 strategy and i think you said in your statement that um or we saw that you couldn't see beyond the edpm membrane because that had been put around does that mean that you didn't know what was beyond that membrane
02:52:26 was beyond that membrane in terms of the windows around no we wouldn't have tried to look at the the facades on the outside and trying to piece it all together we were dealing with a bit that we've been allocated which was to provide an ascetic finish
02:52:37 which was to provide an ascetic finish to those reveals yeah now we we looked at um mr o'connor's email about mark dixon
02:52:49 mr o'connor's email about mark dixon going to site in february 2015. do you think it's possible that this meeting at the pilot flat we've just discussed actually did happen in around february 2015. it could have done but it may have also
02:53:01 it could have done but it may have also been that i hadn't gone there specifically to deal with that it may well be
02:53:04 well be i've gone there to do with all the other things i dealt with on a daily basis and then i was asked to just go and expect it and give my thoughts on it in that email mr lawrence said that you discussed
02:53:14 discussed um ideas on design and how to improve things that that was a discussion had with you would you agree that you were discussing with the ryden
02:53:22 ryden people ideas on design and how to improve things well i can't recollect it but i'm certainly accused many times of imposing my opinion on people yeah
02:53:34 i think
02:53:40 if we can then turn to paragraph 19 of your witness statement that's on page four
02:53:50 so then following the story through you say one of the management team instructed sdpl to produce an alternative configuration for finishing off the windows surrounds that one was more aesthetically pleasing
02:54:03 that one was more aesthetically pleasing than the example windows surround two was easier to install than the example windows surround and three would remedy the boeing in the example windows surround and you described that as the works yes
02:54:16 and you described that as the works yes and and when you're referring there to the management team do you mean ryden asked sdp to produce the alternative configuration yes and can you help us as to what
02:54:27 yes and can you help us as to what exactly
02:54:27 exactly ryden asked you to do in practice they they that was the criteria they put in front of me and they actually gave those three criteria but it would be verbally yeah we've been
02:54:38 but it would be verbally yeah we've been learnt from what we'd already seen in the show flat that it was difficult to install
02:54:42 install it was it was it was not a uh a quick process it needed to affect the residents as less as possible but leave them with something that was pleasing to the eye and wasn't
02:54:53 that was pleasing to the eye and wasn't going to give them a load of stress but keep staring out every day after that point yeah and when you say it would have been done verbally can you recall who you had that conversation with no
02:55:05 did you get the impression at this time that ryden was leaving it to sdp to come up with a design solution for the windows surrounds no i think it was certainly a collaboration between the two of us um
02:55:17 collaboration between the two of us um i think with all of these things is that any management team such as ryden or every main contractor will call on the skills and input from other people around them to try and get together as many ideas as
02:55:28 try and get together as many ideas as possible
02:55:30 possible did you get any specific guidance from ryden about how they wanted the design to end up
02:55:35 to end up uh no more than what's what's written on the screen yeah were you ever provided with any information by ryden when doing this alternative configuration for example
02:55:47 alternative configuration for example were you ever given any specification for materials that should be used with it no
02:55:56 now looking back at paragraph 16 of your statement at this point on page four
02:56:04 you say this you say as the new windows were installed beyond the original building line a gap was created between the newly installed windows and the old window
02:56:14 window old timber windows surrounds which may remained in situ following the removal of the old aluminum framed windows the width of the gap was approximately 60 millimeters to 100 millimeters that
02:56:25 60 millimeters to 100 millimeters that depth
02:56:25 depth varying slightly between the units do you see that there yes
02:56:32 did that fact that the windows were installed
02:56:35 installed significantly beyond the building line leaving that gap ever give you any cause for concern about the design of the windows surrounds
02:56:44 surrounds no it hadn't i hadn't looked at it and gone well that that's going to be a problem apart from bridging it because the criteria that we've gained we've been given was literally to make this an aesthetic finish bridge that gap make sure it stays in place
02:56:55 that gap make sure it stays in place yeah did you ever think about whether that gap
02:57:00 that gap might create a vulnerability for fire around the windows um not the time had you ever worked on any similar
02:57:12 had you ever worked on any similar refurbishment project for windows where windows have been installed beyond the building line and you've got to try and bridge a gap no so this was a unique problem was it that you came up against
02:57:24 you came up against it was unique for us but it wasn't necessarily unique for ryden had you ever previously been involved in any window refurbishment work in a high-rise residential building
02:57:37 in a high-rise residential building uh i can't recollect one i think the only one i've done with ryden's was for lakercolt which was one of the early ones was an assistant site manager or actually i was a senior site manager at that point but i think we refurbed those
02:57:49 that point but i think we refurbed those windows though i don't believe oh they might have been replaced yet but they stayed on the same building line so it wouldn't become apparent and that building laker court was that a high-rise building uh i want
02:58:01 was that a high-rise building uh i want to say 11 stories 11 stories okay were you or mr cole ever provided with any design drawings showing how the windows should be configured in these internal window
02:58:13 configured in these internal window reveals
02:58:15 reveals no and again if we had been then that's what would have been replicated on site you describe in in in your statement these works to be cosmetic
02:58:27 these works to be cosmetic you say that at paragraph 13 of your statement and then at paragraph 20 you say that the works were purely decorative nature was that your view when you were being asked to
02:58:38 asked to tender for these works that this work to the interior of the windows was purely cosmetic and decorative it was to create the finish line on the inside of the new window install
02:58:52 and then perhaps before we break if we can just look at um an email this is
02:58:58 ryd3040428
02:59:06 this is an email from adam marriott at the top of the page to you dated the first of may 2015 cc'ing in simon o'connor and he says
02:59:18 cc'ing in simon o'connor and he says morning mark further to your telephone conversation with steve yesterday please can we look to agree a cost for the windows surround package today i believe your carpenter is on site this morning to agree with simon o'connor an
02:59:29 morning to agree with simon o'connor an easier method of installation once installed please call to discuss further do you see that there yes now it begins with further to your conversation with steve yesterday was
02:59:41 conversation with steve yesterday was that a conversation with steve blake correct and can you recall what was said in that conversation no i i think it would have been no more than steve just saying can you try and help us out here can you
02:59:52 can you try and help us out here can you try and make this work for us yeah and then there's reference to your carpenter being on site to agree with simon o'connor an easier method of installation who was that carpenter
03:00:03 carpenter uh i can't recollect that so it wouldn't have been mr cole no it wouldn't have been andy mr chairman i think that's a good moment for everybody yes it is
03:00:14 for everybody yes it is good all right thank you very much from mr dixon we're going to have a break now so we can all get some lunch we'll come back at two o'clock please yep and while you're out of the room i have to ask you please don't talk to
03:00:25 have to ask you please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it excellent all right thank you would you like to go to the usher then please
03:00:45 thank you thank you thank you
03:01:19 you