KCTMO & FRA Expert Evidence - Monday 26th July 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:20 [Music]

00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin today by hearing evidence from a witness who is directly involved in the program to replace the front doors

00:00:36 the program to replace the front doors of flats in grenfell tower yes mr kenner morning sir may i call abigail acosta thank you

00:00:51 good morning mr costa morning good morning i gather you're going to make the affirmation i am yes yes well it's on the screen in front of you would you read it out please thank you i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and

00:01:03 solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much would you like to sit down and

00:01:12 and make yourself comfortable there's water there if you'd like some thank you

00:01:24 thank you all right good yes mr canoe when you're ready thanks sir um would you please confirm your name for the record abigail lacoste thank you good morning mr cossack thank you very much for attending today um before we start

00:01:35 for attending today um before we start your evidence three things i should say to you first of all if any stage you need a break during the course of evidence please don't hesitate to say so that's not a problem secondly would you please keep your

00:01:46 secondly would you please keep your voice up whilst giving evidence that's to enable the shorthand writer to capture everything you say and to capture it accurately and please don't nod in answer to a question

00:01:57 question please say yes or no as the case may be and finally my questions are intended to be short and comprehensible if they're long and incomprehensible please say so and i'll try and correct the position is

00:02:09 and i'll try and correct the position is that okay it is thank you now you've made one statement for the inquiry um which is dated the 19th of december 2019 which can be found at tm00862539

00:02:22 is that your statement it is yes and have you read it recently yes and its contents are true yes thank you

00:02:31 you now

00:02:32 now the first thing i'd like to discuss with you today is your background your position you held at the tmo and your qualifications generally when did you start working for the tmo

00:02:44 when did you start working for the tmo i started working for the tmo in 2009 and what was your job when you first started i was a contract administrator now is it right that you were a project manager for the cattle programmes team

00:02:55 manager for the cattle programmes team from september 2009 onwards yes can you remember know who appointed you valerie sharples what particular qualifications did you have for the job of project manager

00:03:07 have for the job of project manager at the time association project management accreditation which

00:03:14 which was prior to prince2

00:03:18 what is can you help us what's prince2 prince2 it's um it's an accreditation in project management i.e the stages of project management and how

00:03:29 the stages of project management and how a project manager works with a project team in projects and in september 2009 what was your experience of project managing um previously i had worked with notting

00:03:40 previously i had worked with notting hill housing group for 10 years and i worked my way up from administrator to project manager so a new build and refurbishment so i had

00:03:51 a new build and refurbishment so i had had various projects and experience with regards to project managing and contract management program

00:03:58 program thank you in your witness statement we don't need to go to it at paragraph two which is at tmo double zero eight six two five three nine forward slash one you say that you had no specific

00:04:09 you say that you had no specific training in fire safety did you have any general training in fire safety no did you have any general training in health and safety yes and what state what training were you provided

00:04:22 what training were you provided

00:04:22 by the tma just refreshers so as part of our induction

00:04:29 induction and had you had any fire safety training before you joined the tma no can i take it from that that you were unfamiliar with the requirements of the regulatory reform fire safety order of 2005. yes

00:04:42 2005. yes and equally you'd be unfamiliar with fire safety guidance published by the government such as the sleeping guide and the lga guide yes

00:04:56 before you started work on the flat door replacement program did you think you required any uh additional training in the regulatory requirements that governed

00:05:05 governed flat entrance doors yes and i did make that

00:05:09 that clear to my line manager at the time that i was not technically qualified to manage it from a technical aspect only from an administrative aspect who was your line manager at the

00:05:21 aspect who was your line manager at the valerie sharples and simon was the interim head of service that's simon throp is that right that's t-h-r-o-p correct and you made it clear to both of them

00:05:32 them that you had no technical expertise in relation to doors is that a fair summary correct did you ask for any training in relation to the regulatory requirements that

00:05:44 to the regulatory requirements that governed flat entrance doors well i was only meant i was told that i was only managing the contract ie the programme

00:05:54 programme and payments etc i wasn't managing the technical side of it i was only there to support our health and safety team so therefore i wouldn't have asked for specific

00:06:06 i wouldn't have asked for specific training because it wasn't my duty i wasn't

00:06:11 wasn't it wasn't the role we'll come on to this later but can you help us at this stage who was meant to be governing or supervising the technical aspects it was

00:06:21 it was simon um then moving forward mike halliman who was then took over valerie and our health and safety team thank you we'll come on to that in due course

00:06:32 that in due course before we go any further mr costa it's incredibly tempting to answer the question before it's completed um it's probably best if you let me complete the question then give your answer that's just to avoid the

00:06:44 just to avoid the shorthand writer having to make good the the transcript now um when you were managing the flat entrance door refurbishment program were you managing any other contracts at the

00:06:55 you managing any other contracts at the time yes um what were you managing at the time and how many from what i recall little chelsea house which was internal decorations and roof

00:07:06 which was internal decorations and roof works

00:07:08 works um we had cyclical decorations as well there was a lift program as well can you help us now um and of course it varies over time but

00:07:20 and of course it varies over time but what percentage of your time was devoted to the flat engine store program can you remember now i'd say probably 30 to 40 percent

00:07:30 percent now we touched on this in recent answers but could we come on to the management structure um that you were subject to um as you've indicated there simon is it throp or thorpe struck throp was assistant director of

00:07:43 struck throp was assistant director of investment and engineering is that right yes that's correct and what was his role in relation to the flat entrance doors replacement program well he was the technical side in the sense that he had

00:07:55 technical side in the sense that he had done a previous contract before he came to the tmo so he had the information the specifications etc and he had the authority to sign

00:08:06 etc and he had the authority to sign everything off now in early 2011 mark anderson became the part-time interim and later the director of assets investment in engineering is that right and he left in january

00:08:18 is that right and he left in january 2013 is that right i'm not sure because i left beforehand i left in february 2012 due to illness but i got made redundant in april 2012. while you were still there was he the

00:08:30 while you were still there was he the director with responsibility for the flat program

00:08:35 and as you've indicated before valerie sharples was your immediate line manager in relation to the flat entrance door program is that right correct and then changed to mike halliman um

00:08:46 um what was the uh what was the specific role that valerie sharples performed in relation to the flat entrance door program

00:08:53 program initially the contract was to be managed by her

00:08:57 by her but

00:08:58 but due to

00:09:00 due to health issues it got handed over to myself

00:09:03 myself because valerie couldn't attend sight as much as other team members um looking at how responsibility was divided between yourself and valerie

00:09:16 divided between yourself and valerie sharples who was responsible for the early contact with the london housing consortium was that you or was it valerie sharples myself who was responsible for establishing which doors were to be included in the

00:09:28 which doors were to be included in the program that would have been simon valerie and myself um who was responsible for devising the contract specification for the doors simon and health and safety team

00:09:43 and as you've indicated previously you saw yourself as responsible for the administrative side of the contract whereas simon and others were responsible for the technical aspects is that right that is correct

00:09:54 that right that is correct can you help us what was janice ray's involvement in the programme well she was pleading on health and safety so

00:10:02 safety so she worked very closely with the london fire brigade and from the information collated with the meetings with the london fire brigade and fire risk assessments

00:10:13 assessments she would then provide us with the addresses and to create a program for for the actual contract now you indicated an earlier answer that valerie sharples was later succeeded by

00:10:24 valerie sharples was later succeeded by mike hallimund correct and that happened in july 2011 is that about right that's about correct and thereafter you responded you reported directly to mike halemon is that right correct

00:10:36 halemon is that right correct and what was his level of involvement in the program well mike had quite an extensive technical

00:10:43 technical experience so he had previous experience on

00:10:47 on fire doors and other high technical programs and he was my direct line manager so everything went through mike he also seems to have handled complaints from

00:10:58 seems to have handled complaints from residents is that right yes if they escalated usually complaints were managed by resident liaison officer lorna cunningham but if it escalated to a stage two or

00:11:09 but if it escalated to a stage two or three then mike would also get involved thank you

00:11:13 thank you now can we turn to the flat door replacement program itself um first of all what prompted the program um there was a need of funding and pressure from the london

00:11:25 of funding and pressure from the london fire brigade and i think central government for works to be done under decent homes so there was a great push for local authorities

00:11:36 authorities to do the program and i know london fire brigade also was pushing for these programs to be done who ultimately made the decision to proceed with the program

00:11:47 i don't know in janus ray's witness statement and we don't need to go to it but the reference is paragraph six which can be found at tmo double zero eight four seven three

00:11:58 tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five forward slash two she says this and i quote the fire door replacement project was overseen uh by the tmos asset investment and engineering team

00:12:09 engineering team the project manager was abigail acosta while the health and safety team did not oversee the project i was involved to the extent that i acted as a liaison between the project team and carl stokes

00:12:20 between the project team and carl stokes the tmos fire risk assessor is that a fair summary of janice ray's involvement in the program well i think she was a bit more involved so she she was devising the programmes

00:12:32 so she she was devising the programmes and providing us the information of priorities so which buildings had to be done before and which ones didn't so she had more involvement than than that i think so she ordered the

00:12:45 than that i think so she ordered the priority of the fitment program is that right

00:12:48 right yes in theory so the the the priorities would come through the fire risk assessments whatever had been identified and discussions collaboratively with the london fire brigade and then

00:13:00 london fire brigade and then janice's team would devise a program of addresses pending on the priorities highlighted or recommended under those fire risk assessments would janice ray attend monthly progress meetings in

00:13:12 attend monthly progress meetings in relation to the program yes and if those meetings that she didn't attend she was always ceced into all the minutes uh if uh outside those meetings did you ever have calls to discuss for example the

00:13:24 have calls to discuss for example the regulatory requirements which govern doors with janish ray i don't recall those discussions but we would have had discussions can you help us what was carl stokes's

00:13:35 can you help us what was carl stokes's role in the flat door replacement program he was helping janice's team with the fire risk assessment program but also took a kind of big role on the technical side

00:13:48 kind of big role on the technical side to assist us to inspect also on the quality and workmanship of man's monster doors

00:13:55 doors we will come on to the advice that mr stokes gave in due course but can we now look at

00:14:02 look at the doors that were included in the flat door replacement program

00:14:07 program do you recall a stop condition survey being carried out by rand associates i i do recall it i wasn't there at the time but yes now if we turn up the document you may

00:14:19 now if we turn up the document you may may jog your memory when you see it timo double zero eight six trouble six five which may have to be downloaded there it is

00:14:29 is now we can see here a summary of the condition of relevant doors in various properties um looking at this now does it ring any bells with you

00:14:41 bells with you no

00:14:42 no now if we can look at column k

00:14:47 you'll see on the top of the page there we go thank you and you see immediately above the capital letter k you'll see a reference plug 30 mins plus

00:14:58 plug 30 mins plus is that a reference to the timber fire door certification scheme i don't know

00:15:07 did rand associates provide you with any analysis of the information they collated or was their role simply to collate the information yes the latter they would calculate the information to put on our systems to

00:15:20 information to put on our systems to enable us to then program works under decent homes were the doors listed in this survey and particularly i'm thinking of those that were missing fire safety elements um were they

00:15:31 fire safety elements um were they presumed by the tmo not to have met the relevant regulatory standards that's correct

00:15:38 correct now um if we can go to an email that you sent to graeme sidaway on the 21st of august 2010 that can be found at tmo double zero eight six treble six two

00:15:51 treble six two forward slash two

00:15:57 if we go to the bottom of the page if possible

00:16:02 [Music] sorry go to the top of page so it's my fault

00:16:08 fault there we see your email 21st of october to graham sidaway can you help us first of all who was graham siddaway he used to have her to collate the program so

00:16:19 to collate the program so the rand information went to him so keystone's kind of team sorry i can't remember the name exactly of the team

00:16:29 here we go an email from you nonetheless um

00:16:32 um and you say graham hi we're due to have a meeting with lhc that's the london housing consortium with regard to procuring a program with them relating to fire doors under the fire risk assessment program valerie has asked me to speak to you to see if you could

00:16:44 to speak to you to see if you could check the attached list in particular the ones highlighted in red with our new stock

00:16:48 stock condition data

00:16:52 when you came when janus ray prioritized the buildings to be fitted with the doors to what extent was cost a consideration when determining which

00:17:03 consideration when determining which buildings which doors should be fitted first

00:17:06 first i don't think it went by cost it went by priority so

00:17:12 if it was priority one that means it was at high risk so we would deal with those properties first if they were under priority two meant they were at high risk but not as high risk and we only

00:17:24 risk but not as high risk and we only under this contract concentrated on priorities one and two and so the iran stock condition survey identified those that presented the highest risk and that

00:17:36 highest risk and that directed the order of fitment i think it was the other way around so they were highlighted through the fire risk assessments and um conversations that janice had with the london fire brigade we would then get those lists and then

00:17:47 we would then get those lists and then it was passed on to graham's team to make sure one that they were on the system and if anything else was highlighted that could have been a high priority before undertaking the works thank you now if we go on to page one

00:17:59 thank you now if we go on to page one and we see mr sidaway's uh answer and if we look at the fifth paragraph down which starts with the words the list you attached

00:18:07 attached and it says this the list you attach goes some way to identifying the priority blocks there's more to do as clearly there are thousands of doors that don't meet the fr now first of all what did he mean what

00:18:19 now first of all what did he mean what did you take him to mean by the fr fire risk assessment fire risk assessment yeah

00:18:29 uh how do you use the word fire resistance rather than viruses yes and that's what you understood and to me fire resistance yes um what's the intention to replace all

00:18:40 um what's the intention to replace all the doors that have been identified by rand

00:18:43 rand and or the fras as non-compliant yes

00:18:52 now can i turn to a separate topic which is the door specification itself um

00:19:00 as project manager um did you have any responsibility for devising the specification yeah that lie entailed entirely with simon thropped it yes

00:19:12 did you have any involvement in the preparation of the specification yes i collated all the information together all the tender documents together and passed them on to valerie at the time and simon and other internal

00:19:24 time and simon and other internal stakeholders before they were obviously

00:19:30 procured so please shout out if this is unfair was your role administrative and essentially secretarial collating the information rather than having any involvement in the substance and the

00:19:41 involvement in the substance and the technical substance that's correct thank you

00:19:47 would it be fair to say that you had no relevant experience or indeed expertise or training in

00:19:53 in compiling the specification for the door program no

00:19:59 do you remember whether mr throcker indeed anyone else sought specialist advice on the substance of the specification for the program i'm not aware

00:20:08 can you help now assist the panel the degree the extent of the involvement of the health and safety team in the preparation of the specification well they worked closely with simon and under um their senior

00:20:21 with simon and under um their senior management team meetings so

00:20:24 so i'm

00:20:25 i'm hoping that those discussions took place but you can't speak directly i cannot because i was nev i never formed part of those discussions or meetings thank you now if we can go to your witness statement which is at tmo double zero

00:20:38 statement which is at tmo double zero eight six two five three nine forward slash three and paragraph four roman i which is uh

00:20:46 uh near the top sorry little eye i should say

00:20:49 say at the top of the page now you list details there of what information was sought as part of the procurement process you say specification of doors design advice and support on the

00:21:00 design advice and support on the interpretation and conformity to regulatory requirements including planning assistance full survey and installation service including programming residence choice exercises and ongoing liaison

00:21:13 exercises and ongoing liaison installation works and management undertaken to the guidance set out in bs 8213-4 and bs-8214 including finishing and making good

00:21:24 including finishing and making good 10-year product and installation guarantee

00:21:27 guarantee who provided the information on the specification of doors simon provided one that he'd initially done previously and also the lhc under their call-off agreement

00:21:40 under their call-off agreement can you remember can you speak directly as to whether janice ray or carl stokes were involved they were involved so they saw the specifications before they went to board so

00:21:50 so yes

00:21:51 yes can you remember whether anyone gave design advice

00:21:56 not that i recall um

00:22:00 um from whom did the tmo uh seek or obtain or receive guidance in relation to interpretation and conformity with regulatory requirements

00:22:12 can we go to tm008673

00:22:20 now as you see from the top these are minutes of a meeting of fire risk assessment works the fire door program held on the 4th of november

00:22:30 november 2010

00:22:32 2010 we can see that you attended as did janice ray and valerie sharples can you help us who's john parsons john parsons he created the information for keystone and he was the one that put

00:22:44 for keystone and he was the one that put the data in the keystone systems so he informed us our data analyst thank you now if we can look at the second paragraph under the heading discussion it says this specification required and preliminary

00:22:56 specification required and preliminary clauses pending on form of contract we decide to take specification to be taken from lhc so that's the london housing consortium website now we are full members of lhc

00:23:09 website now we are full members of lhc can you help us what was meant by the phrase specification to be taken from lhc website so under the call-off agreement lhc had a specification for the fire

00:23:21 lhc had a specification for the fire door programs so we i collated that information and then compared it with what simon had provided and just ensured that everything was factored in that was required but when you say you collated

00:23:33 required but when you say you collated that information is it put bluntly you simply downloaded the bespoke that's correct specification that was on the lhc website that's correct now reading on and the third paragraph

00:23:44 now reading on and the third paragraph says this tender list needs to be put together via lhc this will be discussed further when we meet lhc on the 10th of november who was responsible for uh preparing the tender list

00:23:56 preparing the tender list well the tender list would have been lhc because they would have had the suppliers under that lot under the call-off agreement can you remember now whether you had a meeting with the lhc on the 10th of november i can't recall that

00:24:10 can you ever remember ever discussing with the lhc the scope of the flat door replacement program yes and

00:24:17 and was it you seeking advice from them yes and were you the primary contact with the lhc

00:24:23 the lhc and can remember now um what particular issues you sought their advice in relation to just the technical advice

00:24:33 standards and what you need standards requirements um

00:24:40 um approved document b like what was the minimum doors to meet the standards can you remember seeking there at you seeking their advice in relation to the substance of

00:24:51 advice in relation to the substance of the specification some yes can you remember on what topics now

00:24:56 now on the doors in particular but can you remember any precise issues in relation to the doors

00:25:05 no no no

00:25:06 no no sorry sorry um when you uh when the door specification was drafted um did was carl stokes's confirmation sort

00:25:18 did was carl stokes's confirmation sort as to whether the specification was compatible with the relevant regulatory standards yes he was kept in the loop all the time were you responsible for asking that confirmation of him or was that dealt

00:25:30 confirmation of him or was that dealt with by other people

00:25:33 can i'm not sure what you quite mean did you ask him or did no no i asked him of course if i wasn't sure about a technical matter i would go to

00:25:43 to my team who were there to support for technical purposes now in your witness statement um and we can go to it at tmo double zero eight six two five three nine forward slash

00:25:55 six two five three nine forward slash four

00:25:58 now in response to the question was the contract for the supply and installation of fd30

00:26:05 of fd30 or fd30s doors you say paragraph six a midway down the page this fdm 30

00:26:14 fdm 30 composite doors door set fitted had relevant smoke seals which should prevent any smoke getting through vulnerable areas of the door now was it your understanding that the doors were required to be fd30 with cold

00:26:28 doors were required to be fd30 with cold smoke seals yes that's correct

00:26:32 did you understand that to be the same as an fd30s door

00:26:38 door no no

00:26:44 did you ask carl stokes for example what the difference was between fd30 on the one hand and fd30s on the other we did yes

00:26:54 did you understand self-closing devices to be an essential feature of the door set yes

00:27:02 did you make it clear to the lsc or the lhc that this what the specification was that the tmo required yes

00:27:14 looking back now do you remember what the distinction you understood to be between fd30 on the one hand and fd30s on the other so fd30 composite doors

00:27:25 on the other so fd30 composite doors have the seals inside

00:27:29 inside if it's a fd30s the sign would be outside the door

00:27:37 do you remember know whether the lhc knew that the doors were for protected corridors and so had to be fd30s do you remember no i don't recall that

00:27:49 were you aware following on from the answer you've just given that for the purposes of the proof document b um the suffix s so after fd30 indicated that a door had been tested

00:28:00 that a door had been tested for cold smoke leakage yes yes

00:28:05 you got that information from carl stokes did you yes now can we turn to mas quadruple zero double zero three five forward slash 3 which is a bundle of

00:28:17 forward slash 3 which is a bundle of tender documents

00:28:26 now we see the very top of the page clause 1.1 and it reads thus security 30 min fire door supply and fit in accordance with tmo performance

00:28:37 accordance with tmo performance specification one number grp-30m fire security door set complete with and then it goes on to list various items of door furniture

00:28:50 various items of door furniture as far as i can see that specification does not mention or refer to smoke seals is that right correct

00:29:01 are you able to help us as to why smoke seals were not mentioned in this specification i can't

00:29:11 did you pick up the absence of any reference to smoke seals with simon throp or janice ray or carl stokes or anyone else at the time um i'd everything would have technically

00:29:23 um i'd everything would have technically would have been passed on to mike and simon and valerie as well as mark so you'd have deferred to them yes yes and also health and safety team all

00:29:34 and also health and safety team all internal stakeholders would have been informed

00:29:39 now if we can stay in this document but go to page 90 that's 9-0 and there's a more detailed specification there and if we go to page 90

00:29:51 page 90 actually before we move on to page 93 again

00:29:54 again this more detailed aspect of the specification that would be the doing of others rather than yourself that's correct yes and simon presumably yes that's correct now if we can go to

00:30:06 yes that's correct now if we can go to page

00:30:07 page 93

00:30:10 and we can see at l so roughly halfway down the page it says that the doors are required to meet bs 476 part 22 requirements

00:30:21 meet bs 476 part 22 requirements were you aware at the time that those were fire resistance requirements yes and again did you get that information from car stokes or someone else carl simon and also through the lhc website

00:30:35 simon and also through the lhc website now that section goes on to say uh that and i quote independent test reports must be provided at request were you aware of that particular provision

00:30:46 provision no not at the time when did you become aware of it well after leaving tmo way after after the fire yeah well i wasn't

00:30:57 after the fire yeah well i wasn't employed at the tml when the fire but yes when i started with my new employer um we did a fair ass accreditation so obviously i learned about the fire requirements and regulations far more

00:31:09 requirements and regulations far more thank you now you can take it from me there's no mention of smoke seals in this more detailed specification looking back now would you accept that smoke seals ought

00:31:20 would you accept that smoke seals ought to have been included with this classification yes

00:31:26 and can we take it that the health and safety team including carl stokes would have seen this more detailed specifications yes they did well they

00:31:35 well they actually not only read it but they confirmed that they had no issues with the quality of the manufacturing of doors and installation and works with mance

00:31:45 mance thank you we'll come on to those later matters um can we now turn to tier mode double zero eight six seven double zero two

00:32:00 apologies may have to be downloaded

00:32:24 thank you now as you see this is the second tab and it's called the shore door spec sheet and this is the completed door specification sheet for the flat front

00:32:35 specification sheet for the flat front door replacement program this was sent to you on the first of march 2011. and

00:32:41 and again for the avoidance of doubt would you afford or did you forward that to the health and safety team in coal state yes

00:32:48 and you invited mr stokes to consider it presumably yes

00:32:52 yes now if we look at row 30. that's three zero

00:32:57 zero on the far left hand side immediately next to the words letter plate and then

00:33:03 and then the next column to the right says sleeved fire rated did you understand from that the letter plate was fire rated yes that's correct

00:33:14 plate was fire rated yes that's correct um

00:33:15 um was that an assumption you made or was it a piece of information you sought confirmation from others in relation to others and also mance um provided us with information so additional

00:33:27 with information so additional information on their on their on their products

00:33:30 products did you ask for any fire certification or test results in relation to the letter plate no we didn't were you ever advised to seek such information no

00:33:41 no did you ask whether the door furniture and hardware was fire rated yes

00:33:51 and was that a question you asked of your own volition or was it a result of advice given to you by health and safety team or carl stokes or anyone else just advice given and also asking questions

00:34:03 advice given and also asking questions and advice from whom simon our clerk of works gary

00:34:11 now if we can stay in this document go further down the page to row 36 which concerns door closes and we can see that the specification is said to be and i quote r u k

00:34:24 said to be and i quote r u k surface mounted overhead as standard baromatics that's b-a-r-y-m-a-t-i-c concealed jam closer if overhead cannot be fitted surveyor to confirm

00:34:37 be fitted surveyor to confirm can you recall any discussions now about the specific choice of self-closing device

00:34:45 we did have discussions when post the installations commence not prior

00:34:54 so at this stage there was no debate about competing alternative devices no

00:35:02 no this suggests that the default position was that an overhead closer sorry

00:35:08 sorry looking at that that suggests that the default position was an overhead closer and only when it couldn't be fitted then a baromatic concealed closer would be used is that your understanding was that your understanding at the time

00:35:21 your understanding at the time could you repeat that of course sorry looking at what's set out there it seems to be that the um the surface mounted overhead device is the standard but if that for some reason didn't work

00:35:33 but if that for some reason didn't work then the full back position would be a baromatic concealed jam was that your understanding at the time that's correct but a surveyor of mance would go out before that was confirmed

00:35:44 would go out before that was confirmed to us if it was required can you remember now what a barometic concealed closer was i can't

00:35:52 can't was there much debate about that as the fallback option at the time i don't recall

00:36:02 can you help now as to why the doors at grenfell were fitted with an astra self-closing device and not either of the two options set out here in the specification

00:36:13 specification i can't recall the actual name of the device but it was a self-closing device

00:36:22 now can we go to three tm010037 five zero three which is the sure door grp brochure and first of all do you remember seeing this brochure yes

00:36:36 when were you first given it with lhc it's it's on their website it's called the call of agreement yes so it's before the award of the contract to march master

00:36:51 did you understand the doors supplied by mans master door were as set out or as per the details set out in this brochure yes

00:37:01 yes did you look at this brochure to satisfy yourself that the door specification that's set out here met the tmos requirements as set out in the specification yes and with internal

00:37:13 the specification yes and with internal stakeholders as well

00:37:18 now you can take it from me that this document refers to fd30 and there are no references to fd30s doors was that something you picked up at the

00:37:30 was that something you picked up at the time

00:37:31 time no i can't recall

00:37:35 now as project manager was it your responsibility to ensure that the doors supplied by mans master door met the door specification as prescribed by the tma that would have been health and safety's responsibility so you had no

00:37:47 safety's responsibility so you had no role in that at all no i wasn't a technical person i was just a contract admin

00:37:53 admin as part of the administrative role would it be part of your function to have collected

00:37:58 collected uh the relevant certificates and documentation relevant to the doors to be provided under the contract that would have been covered by bailey garner health and safety advisor under cdm 2007

00:38:09 health and safety advisor under cdm 2007 regs

00:38:11 regs and months master door was that something they did automatically or did they act on instructions from you to do so to collect that information no we would have they would have had to do

00:38:23 we would have they would have had to do that as part of the regulations but would you have notified them as to when yes well they would notify me to let me know when works were completed and then

00:38:33 and then we would get our in-house technical people to go and check everything off ahead of that now it seems that on the 14th of february 2011 you received from months

00:38:44 february 2011 you received from months mostador the chas certificate the fenzer certificate that's fen-sa and the sbd certificate in insurance documentation yes as part of their

00:38:56 documentation yes as part of their tender documents you don't appear to have received the fire test certificate for the doors is that right i don't recall was that

00:39:03 was that an omission which was picked up at the time presumably not no

00:39:08 no who is responsible for checking that relevant documentation had been provided by months mustard or was that you or was it bailey gardner and myself and valerie at the time

00:39:19 and valerie at the time and mike

00:39:21 and mike but he was post so neither you nor valerie sharples nor mike hellermann identified that the fire testifies had not been provided

00:39:33 would you agree that in the absence of such documents the tmo could not be certain that the doors had been tested to the relevant fire resistance standards

00:39:42 standards i can't say that well if

00:39:46 well if you had no fire test yes yes so you accept that so just be make sure the point's clear and i've put the full question to you you accept that absent those fire test

00:39:58 you accept that absent those fire test certificates the tmo could not be certain that the doors had been tested the relevant regulatory standards do you accept that yes thank you

00:40:11 now in his evidence carl stokes indicated that it was your responsibility to look at the technical information in relation to doors do you accept that problem no i don't

00:40:23 assuming that it was your responsibility did you have the technical expertise or knowledge to do so no i didn't and i made that very clear from the beginning

00:40:35 when mance mustador installed a replacement front door did they provide any information to the resident of the relevant property do you know yes um so lorna resident liaison officer worked

00:40:46 lorna resident liaison officer worked very closely with mance masterto resident liaison officer natasha and they built a residence choice list that had all the different choices of the doors and iron mongeries etc colour

00:40:58 doors and iron mongeries etc colour choices which were collated from the residence then this was given to our resident liaison officer lorna which was then fed back to mance

00:41:08 to mance for them to pre-order the doors etc can you remember now whether residents were given information on the importance of self-closing devices

00:41:16 devices i don't recall thank you now can we turn to the tender itself and the completed tender documents which can be found at mas quadruple zero double zero three five

00:41:28 quadruple zero double zero three five forward slash four

00:41:33 now we can see uh the tender documents there signed at the bottom foreign on behalf of mance mastador signed on the i think the dates obviously every 13th of february of january 2011.

00:41:47 of february of january 2011. did you have any role in analyzing or assessing the bids that were received no

00:41:56 as far as we can make out no product literature or information was provided with the tender documents was that something that had been ident that omission had that been identified at the time

00:42:07 at the time because it was a call-off agreement so the actual procurement tender process had been undertaken by lhc already so this was just a further mini competition to ensure that

00:42:20 mini competition to ensure that the pricing and the quality of the product was still as it was when they first tended via the lhc

00:42:28 lhc thank you now if we can go to tm00842274 [Music]

00:42:35 forward slash one

00:42:38 and this is a report entitled flat fired door replacement program it was sent to the operations committee for decision on the 22nd of february 2011. we can see

00:42:51 from the box entitled recommendations that acceptance of the lowest tender which had been made by months mastador was recommended and if we turn over the page to page two

00:43:04 and if we turn over the page to page two you're identified as the author of that report is that right yes what's this the summary that the project team produced following the mini competition evaluations yes that's

00:43:15 competition evaluations yes that's correct

00:43:16 correct can you help us who was involved in the preparation of this report for the operations committee myself valerie or mike at the time i can't recall who was line managing at the time and the head

00:43:28 line managing at the time and the head of services either simon throp or mark anderson was the london housing consortium involved in anyone no because this was an internal approval was it your understanding when this

00:43:39 was it your understanding when this recommendation was made that the doors supplied would meet the relevant regulatory standards yes i did and in due course the operations committee approved the award to manchester yes they did

00:43:51 manchester yes they did now if we can now turn to the advice given by mr stokes and a particular letter he sent on the 7th of march 2011 and if we go to c s t treble 0 1 3 0 7 4

00:44:05 treble 0 1 3 0 7 4 and this is a letter that mr stokes sent to janice ray what i'll do i'll just let you briefly skim read it please shout when you need to be taken over to the second page

00:44:32 huh

00:44:38 i can go to second page thank you

00:44:59 thank you now

00:45:03 there's reference there to various meetings between carl stokes janet's reigns simon throp um is it right that you weren't involved no i didn't did you know about those meetings can you remember no i

00:45:14 those meetings can you remember no i didn't do you remember having seen this letter before that this is the first time you've seen it yes

00:45:25 well can we go back to page one and point one in this letter and you'll see that below the third paragraph is numbered point one

00:45:36 paragraph is numbered point one which says this can it please be confirmed that the doors that are to be fitted under the contract are the fd 30 minute fire doors fd30 version and could the company forward all relevant

00:45:47 the company forward all relevant documentation to confirm this and then if we can turn over the page to top of page two and numbered point two it says can it please be confirmed that the doors will meet all the requirements

00:45:59 the doors will meet all the requirements of the current building regulations and are from under the hm government fire safety risk assessment guide for sleeping accommodation this includes the hinges letter boxes called letter plates and any securing or locking mechanisms

00:46:13 and any securing or locking mechanisms were you asked to confirm either or both of these points with mance mustador no but

00:46:19 no but that information was provided to the health and safety team in various occasions

00:46:27 put differently did you ask for confirmation from mance mustador at any stage that the doors supplied under the contract were fd 30. oh yes

00:46:38 at the time do you know what carl stokes meant by quotes relevant documentation close quotes to confirm the status of doors as fd30 i'm presuming it's the specification and

00:46:53 i'm presuming it's the specification and search to

00:46:55 search to a credit that it's meeting the standards or bs guidance did man's master door ever provide you with that information yes

00:47:06 it's on the lhc website as well were you aware that carl stokes had raised these points

00:47:17 can we now turn to the pilot installation and if we can go to cst trouble zero one two one six three

00:47:27 and if we go to the top of page two

00:47:33 this is the first email in the chain from janice ray to you on the 11th of march 2011 and she said this simon presumably simon throp met with our fire consultant carl

00:47:45 throp met with our fire consultant carl stokes yesterday and discussed this work program

00:47:50 and she goes on to say simon asks carl to be present when the first door is installed so he can confirm that he is happy with the door and also with the workmanship was that your understanding as to why

00:48:01 was that your understanding as to why carl stokes attended for the installation yes he was there to support janice's team on on the technical side as well as ourselves and was it your

00:48:12 as well as ourselves and was it your understanding at the time that simon throck wanted him there to confirm that he was happy that the doors met the specification yes that's correct and all relevant standards and regulations that's correct was it standard practice at the tma to

00:48:24 was it standard practice at the tma to have a pilot installation program for similar capital works yes

00:48:32 and to use that as a means of securing confirmation that the specification had been met and the standard of installation was satisfactory yes and also to see what um

00:48:43 satisfactory yes and also to see what um other issues could erase during installation or um how what the impact would be for residents as well so it was just trying to minimize as much as we could

00:48:54 as much as we could and get get the installation or the product of works correct am i right in thinking that alex fomen f-o-m-i-n from the london housing consortium attended the pilot installation he also attended

00:49:06 the pilot installation he also attended and was he the technical officer who's responsible for carrying site visits for on the lhc behalf yes why was he attending well as as

00:49:18 well as as part of the call-off agreement um they agreed or as part of this service that they would undertake 10 um of inspections post installation so

00:49:29 um of inspections post installation so it carries a sample exercise yes

00:49:32 yes and did you regard did you or indeed anyone else at the tmo regard him as having particular expertise in the standard relevant to flat front entry yes yes

00:49:43 did you ask him about his experience or relevant qualifications no

00:49:48 no you just assumed he had the relevant expertise

00:49:52 now he produced the site visit report which you can find at cst quadruple 0 2758 if we go to that

00:50:04 did you read that report yes we would read the report

00:50:10 and the report if we look at the very bottom right hand corner is that counter-signed by chris powell

00:50:19 it looks like chris powell i can't say was he an employee of the tmo what was his

00:50:24 his involvement i don't even recall who chris powell is i'm afraid sorry

00:50:31 sorry you had no dealings with anyone nice

00:50:38 was your expectation that alex foman would raise any issues of non-compliance yes

00:50:46 and at the time of installation you were relying upon their technical expertise yes

00:50:52 yes now if we could turn over the page and look at page two the second line go to the very top of the page you'll see the second line from the top

00:51:00 the top says this door supplied was of good quality and professionally installed did you rely upon that report as evidence that the lhc were satisfied that the doors installed by mans master

00:51:12 that the doors installed by mans master door met the relevant regulatory standards yes

00:51:17 did you pick up on the point that there's no reference to fire safety or the fire resist particularly the fire resistant qualities of the doors

00:51:27 again as i said i wasn't a technical person so it's not something i would pick up or look into thoroughly did you also rely upon um the reports

00:51:39 did you also rely upon um the reports from

00:51:39 from alex fomen to assure you that the relevant requirements the building regulations have been complied with as well yes not just alex but also the tmo clerk works

00:51:50 just alex but also the tmo clerk works as well gary killick did you um ask alex fomen what particular checks he was carrying out to assure himself for example that they'd met the requirements of the building

00:52:01 met the requirements of the building regulations yes you're you're sure on that not 100

00:52:09 how sure are you 60

00:52:12 60 because we would have had discussions of what type of inspections we would have wanted carried out and the form of the report in were you relying upon anyone else to give you comfort that the

00:52:23 else to give you comfort that the building like regulations have been satisfied who else will you rely on carl and gary killock and also at say the most extreme

00:52:34 say the most extreme presence would be bailey garner as a cdm coordinator advisor at the time

00:52:42 now if we can stay on this page and look at the footer at the very bottom of this page it says this the site visit report is for the purposes of checking compliance

00:52:53 for the purposes of checking compliance with the product specification for the above named lhc framework arrangement inclusive of the delivery of site services it is not intended to be a supervisory inspection report and should

00:53:04 supervisory inspection report and should not be used as such now bearing in mind the answers you've just given bearing in mind of what this says at the bottom of the page did you

00:53:15 says at the bottom of the page did you read that footer at the time so may 2011 i don't recall reading the footer no is it fair to say that you did not understand at the time the report to be limited to

00:53:27 limited to essentially compliance with product specifications say yes

00:53:31 say yes now can we next go to cst quadruple zero three one three nine forward slash one so it's another email correspondence and we can see at the bottom of page one

00:53:43 we can see at the bottom of page one an email from mr stokes on the 17th of may 2011 he said this do you want me to comment on this report because i believe that it is not acceptable the report being the one we just looked at um were

00:53:56 being the one we just looked at um were you surprised by the contents of that email do you remember

00:54:00 remember i don't recall sorry you don't remember the email at all no i remember i no not

00:54:07 so do you remember this email no it's nine years ago no i don't

00:54:13 um do you recall a letter from carl stokes explaining why he believed the report was not acceptable

00:54:20 i don't remember he may have sent it through but i don't remember exactly what was sent because there was lots of literature sent between us during the duration of the program now if we go to

00:54:31 duration of the program now if we go to cst quadruple zero one six five four

00:54:37 now this is a letter 23rd of may 2011. so

00:54:41 so some 12 day or slightly less than that a few days after the report we've just been discussing it's addressed the janice ray

00:54:52 do you remember receiving this letter

00:54:57 i may have been copied in but i don't recall

00:55:00 recall no no the first part of the letter is about the door itself and on the first page he states in the second sentence of the first paragraph this from the information

00:55:14 given to me by the installation team on site and the technical sheets before had from yourselves the door fitted was a fire rated version fd30 of the shore door grp range

00:55:25 door grp range um did you or indeed janice ray to the best of your knowledge take this as stokes's formal confirmation that the door was compliant from reading it yes

00:55:42 did carl stokes ever give to you the information he'd been provided by the installation team

00:55:49 no of that i recall off now if we can go to just the bottom of this page we see there's a run of numbered

00:55:58 numbered points

00:56:00 points and he sets out his comments on the report i'm not going to go through these but

00:56:05 but if we could just look at them and turn over the page too

00:56:16 if you didn't receive this letter do you remember the substance of these concerns being communicated to you by anyone else at the time janice would have if there was major concerns we would have

00:56:29 concerns we would have that information would have come across to our team through the relevant stakeholders so if there was a major concern janice would come to us we would raise it with mance khan would form part of it lhc as well and also the tmos

00:56:41 of it lhc as well and also the tmos clerker works wish janice ray was very good about forwarding matters that raised concerns to you and others involved in the flat door replacement program as far as i recall yes

00:56:52 program as far as i recall yes you never felt out of the loop i did

00:56:55 i did but

00:56:58 but yeah but in relation to concerns that have been raised yes so if she raised a concern then i would obviously seek the technical advice so if it was um something administrative that i knew it would be fed back to have it was

00:57:10 it would be fed back to have it was something that i wasn't aware of then we would ensure to seek the correct information to give back to her can we go to cst quadruple zero one six zero seven

00:57:21 zero seven this is an email from mr mark anderson sent on the 13th of june 2011

00:57:28 and we can see mr anderson's email thank you amplified there and he says in the fourth paragraph of this email this i'm slightly apprehensive about us recommending an fd30s door set that this

00:57:41 recommending an fd30s door set that this may not meet the full requirements of the building regulations despite the stance taken by elfipa and building control he went on to suggest and i quote a review of the applicable building regulations

00:57:53 building regulations on in the next paragraph now as a result of that email you then emailed carl stokes on the 15th of june and if we de-amplify the screen asking can you confirm what mance are meeting the below

00:58:07 what mance are meeting the below and that's set out at the stop now was that the first time you'd asked carl stokes to check if the door specification was acceptable he would have been involved from the tender stages as well or janice's team

00:58:20 tender stages as well or janice's team would have been involved so as a result of that it was because of mark anderson raising concerns yes that we would have sorry if you wait sorry do wait for me to finish the the question

00:58:31 wait for me to finish the the question because of mr anderson's request you then thought it was prudent to raise it directly with mr stokes is that right correct

00:58:39 correct now could we go to cst quadruple zero one three double eight

00:58:48 now this letter is from carl stokes this time addressed to you and dated the 24th of june 2011 so roughly a month after the um first alex fomen site inspection report

00:59:00 first alex fomen site inspection report could ask you just to briefly skim read it so you can remember

00:59:05 remember its contents

00:59:24 would you mind turning over sorry second page thank you

00:59:36 now that appears to be his response to your email request the 15th of june 2011. is that a fair assumption to make yes

00:59:46 yes now if we go back to page one and roughly halfway down that page i'm sorry the type's quite dense but it's the

00:59:55 it's the line that starts the specifications of a fire door have you got that yes he says the specifications of a fire door and the standard required in a particular location is specified by part b of the building regulations in appendix b open

01:00:08 building regulations in appendix b open brackets fire doors close brackets and the performance of fire doors is judged by subjecting them to the standard test procedure specified in bs 476 part 22

01:00:19 procedure specified in bs 476 part 22 1987 or bs en 1634-1 2000.

01:00:26 2000. he goes on to say also incorporated in the door could be fire rated glazed panels in the new fire doors would be cold smoke seals and intumescent seals or strips

01:00:38 do you think you should have had that door specification in writing before awarding the contract that level of detail yes

01:00:48 before that letter was received did mr stokes the best of your recollection ever mentioned the need for a door to meet testing under bs 476 part 31

01:01:00 he he he did in several of our correspondents but that literature was also in manchester as well saying stating that it met those

01:01:13 as well saying stating that it met those requirements now just turning back to page two and really the concluding paragraph um he says there from all the technical information provided by the

01:01:24 information provided by the manufacturers and the inspection sheets provided by lhc the new flat engine stores supplied and fitted by mounts masador meet the requirements of the building regulations

01:01:35 requirements of the building regulations in that the doors are fd30s this includes all the door furniture fitted to or on the doors any glazing fitted in the doors is fire rated according to the information

01:01:47 rated according to the information provide as is any glazing fitted surrounding the doors did that provide you with the reassurance you were seeking in your email of june yes

01:01:59 email of june yes did you know what technical information mr stokes was referring to there in the concluding paragraph of this letter well he was referring to the um standard building regulations so the

01:02:11 standard building regulations so the guidance of building regulations and

01:02:15 and i'm assuming also our roi and fear us you're assuming because you don't know i don't know no do you know whether mr stokes had asked mance master daw

01:02:28 mr stokes had asked mance master daw directly for any information or do you always used you as the channel for communications with mance mastador i don't know if he directly contacted man summers again i'm assuming

01:02:39 contacted man summers again i'm assuming he did because um they were they worked closely when they were on site so i wouldn't see why they wouldn't have those discussions now

01:02:49 now looking at this paragraph the concluding one he refers there to fd30s

01:02:56 we previously looked at his letter of the 7th of march 2011 where he simply referred to fd30 alone at the time did you pick up that difference between what is set out

01:03:08 that difference between what is set out here

01:03:09 here and in his letter of three months earlier

01:03:12 earlier i probably would have but i would have assumed the s is plural so i thought nothing of it no you say you probably did can you

01:03:23 you say you probably did can you remember whether you did i can't say that

01:03:35 now looking back whose

01:03:39 whose responsibility was it at the tmo for ensuring that the doors were essentially fit for purpose carl

01:03:49 carl health and safety team and our clerk works and

01:03:53 works and the last swimmer would be bailey garner ahead of compiling our health and safety files before practical completion now can i turn um to

01:04:06 a separate topic which is leaseholder properties now

01:04:13 now did all the blocks included in the replacement program have doors that did not comply with fire safety regulations yes

01:04:21 yes and so it was important in those in all those blocks for leaseholder residents to replace their front doors yes was that generally understood to be the case within the tmo at the time

01:04:32 case within the tmo at the time yes

01:04:33 yes did you understand that a failure of an individual door to meet fire safety requirements put not just the relevant flat at risk but potentially the fire safety of the block at whole as a whole yes but then

01:04:45 yes but then it negates to what the leaseholders agreement or leasehold agreement states so

01:04:51 so a leasehold agreement states that the leasehold is responsible for the door frame and the door so therefore yes say the tmo as the landlord is

01:05:02 yes say the tmo as the landlord is responsible for the building but if then the leasehold is responsible to ensure that they're installing a you know correct door then it's very hard to gauge where that

01:05:14 it's very hard to gauge where that liability stands well can we turn to a minute of a program progress meeting on the 9th of june 2011 which can be found at tmo 1

01:05:26 1 quadruple 08 1

01:05:34 and there we go you attended and if we can turn to page four and paragraph 5.9

01:05:41 and it says there it was agreed by all parties if leaseholders wish to have same doors via master door they will have to arrange a private arrangement directly with masterdoor nb to keep note

01:05:53 directly with masterdoor nb to keep note if this does happen for our records had that particular arrangement been asked for by leaseholders themselves so leaseholders expressed interest i worked very closely with dan who was the

01:06:06 worked very closely with dan who was the home ownership manager at the time um with regards to the liability of where the lease information stood versus the programme and i know dan seek legal advice at the

01:06:18 and i know dan seek legal advice at the time and dan agreed that um any resident or least any leaseholder that wished to have the doors done could do so at the same price

01:06:29 doors done could do so at the same price as

01:06:30 as we were paying at the time of the programme and then once mance installed the doors we would ensure that it met

01:06:40 it met the same standard ie inspections as normal residents would have dan what was dan's surname i think if i recall correctly daniel wood he was the home ownership manager at the time

01:06:52 ownership manager at the time now could we turn to tm00867251

01:06:58 and if we could turn over the page to page two

01:07:03 we can see just in the bottom half of the page you'd received an email from keith mott who on behalf of the grenfell leaseholders association in respect of flat doors

01:07:16 association in respect of flat doors we don't need to go through the email but mr mott was making the point that if tenant doors at grenfell required upgrading to meet current standards leaseholder doors also needed to be upgraded

01:07:26 upgraded now did that reflect it seems if it does did that reflect the tmo's understanding at the time yes

01:07:35 did you therefore accept mr mott's point as valid yes no response so far as we can see was sent to mr mott's email can you help us as to why not um every email that was

01:07:48 as to why not um every email that was received through residents would come through our customer service team or say if it was a complaint through our complaints team uh mr mart being a leaseholder it would have gone to daniel's team and then daniel would

01:08:01 daniel's team and then daniel would ask us for the information we would provide that information and it would then be responded via the actual service so leasehold team would respond back to keith mart not ourselves directly thank

01:08:12 keith mart not ourselves directly thank you now if we can go to page one of this email chain and it's your email to mark anderson

01:08:19 which is the bottom of page one and you say

01:08:25 you say middle of the third paragraph uh dan has confirmed if they wish to do a private arrangement so i should say second paragraph if you wish to do a private arrangement the master mastered or direct they are happy for them to do so

01:08:36 direct they are happy for them to do so keeps

01:08:37 keeps tmo out of equation again but down there is dan wood yes that's correct why was dan wood keen to keep quotes kctmo out of the equation

01:08:49 to keep quotes kctmo out of the equation close quotes i'm i think because of the legalities of it because it is the under the leasehold agreement it's the leaseholders responsibility so i'm assuming that's

01:09:02 responsibility so i'm assuming that's what he meant by it thank you if we turn to the top of this particular page to see mr anderson's reply which is also sent on the 13th of june

01:09:13 and he states that in the opening paragraph i find it difficult to accept that we would treat leaseholders in a block differently to tenants especially where fire safety is concerned now did you agree 100

01:09:27 now if we can go to further emails and if we can go to cst quadruple 0-1607 now the this is basically further email correspondence following from mr mott's

01:09:38 correspondence following from mr mott's um correspondence and they take this correspondence takes place uh slightly later but on the same day and if we can go to the middle of page one

01:09:49 one and we see a further email there from mr anderson

01:09:53 anderson and it's looking at the third paragraph

01:09:58 of that he email he says this as a responsible landlord we should however alert leaseholders to this and highlight the legislative requirements and then he goes on to say

01:10:10 goes on to say um in the fifth paragraph i think it is i suggest a review of the applicable building regulations and if the approach currently being adopted is acceptable to the organization then we could offer to assist leaseholders by facilitating a

01:10:22 assist leaseholders by facilitating a private arrangement the installation of equivalent door sets with the contractor due to undertake works to the tenanted properties within blocks any such arrangement would be a private

01:10:33 any such arrangement would be a private one between the leaseholder and the manufacturer installer what was your impression at the time that he was referring to all these holders and blocks where months master door were replacing the doors yes

01:10:46 what did you make at the time of mr anderson's suggestion

01:10:52 well i've just kind of did what i did what i was told so i wouldn't have gone against my my head of service do you know whether mr anderson or yourself referred this to janice ray

01:11:05 yourself referred this to janice ray janice would have been informed and would she had been responsible for taking actions as directed by mr anderson or who would be i think janice's team as well as the leasehold team

01:11:17 leasehold team now if we go to the minutes of the fire flat door replacement program on the 10th of august 2011 so just two months after this correspondence that can be found at tmo one

01:11:30 quadruple zero nine double one forward slash five

01:11:36 and if we go to paragraph five point three

01:11:39 three we see there that the minutes record this master door to send a list of leaseholders that have made private arrangements for installation of doors for our records and home ownership and so

01:11:50 and so can we take it from that that by august 2011

01:11:53 2011 mastered or installing doors for leaseholders under a private arrangement with mans master door yes now if we can go to a letter drafted by monster master door 2 leaseholders and

01:12:05 monster master door 2 leaseholders and it's dated september which can be found at tm00868127

01:12:18 and if we look at the second paragraph of that letter it says this and i quote mance mastador have given an undertaking to kensington chelsea tma that we will offer to supply and install new high security front

01:12:30 and install new high security front entrance doors rated to 30 minute fire resistance and to the same specifications approved by kensington chelsea tmo to all leasehold the cost of these doors are in line with the current

01:12:41 these doors are in line with the current contract rate do you recall seeing that letter in draft or in final form no because that's something that our resident liaison officer would work closely with mance's resident liaison officer but dan would have

01:12:54 officer but dan would have seen this letter and would have approved it before going out to leaseholders so it wouldn't necessarily have crossed your desk no do you know whether dan or indeed danwood or indeed anyone else kept records of which leaseholders had had

01:13:05 records of which leaseholders had had their doors replaced under arrangements we i would have sent that information to our leasehold team now just finally under this topic um can we turn to tmo double zero 868

01:13:18 we turn to tmo double zero 868 146.

01:13:22 this appears being email chain about the letter we just looked at

01:13:28 at the top of the page is an email from david ward to you on the 7th of september 2011. and first of all who was david ward

01:13:41 he strayed on the trip officer thank you and we can see that he says i stress again that these are only to be sent to those that have expressed an interest and shouldn't be sent to all

01:13:53 and shouldn't be sent to all leaseholders now that restricted offer seems to be contrary to what mr anderson had in mind is that a fair reading of what mr ward is suggesting that's a fair eden yes

01:14:04 eden yes can you help us as to why a more restricted approach had been taken i i don't know why who would it would it have been dan wood who'd been responsible as as the head of service yes thank you um so i've reached

01:14:17 service yes thank you um so i've reached the end of the present topic bearing in mind time that's probably an appropriate point subject to yes well mr costa we have a break during each session and this seems to be a good time to have the break for this morning

01:14:29 time to have the break for this morning so we'll stop there we'll resume at uh half past well how long are you getting on this morning um just over the halfway point so if we could come back at half past that fast yes

01:14:41 come back at half past that fast yes we'll come back at half past 11 and i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room thanks right would you like to go with the usher then thank you

01:15:00 right thank you very much

01:30:47 yes would you ask mr costa to come back in please

01:31:02 all right mr costa you're ready to carry on yes thank you thank you very much yes mr thanks sir mr costa can we turn to the topic of the clerk of works now first of all is it right that gary

01:31:13 now first of all is it right that gary clinic uh kilik was assigned to the programme

01:31:16 programme yes he was a tmo agency staff member now do you remember that mr killick left in about march 2011. he left and then he came back

01:31:28 he left and then he came back and when did he come back i don't recall exactly when he came back when he came back did he come back to a role as or

01:31:36 as or discharging some of the responsibilities of the clerk of works yes he came back has the same role yes did he come back presumably while she was still employed at the tma yes

01:31:47 was still employed at the tma yes so before february 2012 yes

01:31:53 now um the reason i ask is that it seems certainly seems on the documents that alex fomen was performing the responsibilities of clerk of works for a period of time was that right yes and

01:32:06 period of time was that right yes and during gary killick's absence that's what he was doing was yes

01:32:12 now could i take you to um an email chain which can be found at tm0086

01:32:19 tm0086 728

01:32:21 728 forward slash two

01:32:28 now you see it's an email from valerie sharples first of march 2011 informing everyone that gary keller is leaving

01:32:38 and there's a short term handover if we can go

01:32:42 can go um to your reply at the top of this page

01:32:49 and it's the first sentence the email which is deals with fire door program that you say myself and alex that's alex foman from london housing consortium could cover the clerk of works role

01:33:01 could cover the clerk of works role am i writing alex being alex foman yes

01:33:09 why did you decide that a

01:33:13 a full-time clerk of works replacement wasn't required and that you and mr fomen could do the job

01:33:20 job because the standard process was a 10 on-site inspection post inspection and everything else was done auto text and some of the programs of other

01:33:31 and some of the programs of other projects hadn't commenced so we had the capacity

01:33:37 capacity at the time you've repeatedly said during your evidence that you lacked technical knowledge in relation to stores

01:33:43 stores in relation to offering up yourself what experience or expertise did you have that would allow you to discharge i didn't but if so why did you put

01:33:54 i didn't but if so why did you put yourself forward then i don't know

01:33:59 had you thought before you sent this email as what the division responsibility would be between yourself which is trying to help can you remember whether valerie sharpe was responded to your offer of help i

01:34:10 was responded to your offer of help i don't recall did you end up performing any element of the clock of natural and is it fair to summarize matters that alex fomen stepped into the breach yes

01:34:23 um could we look at tmo double zero eight double six nine six eight forward slash two

01:34:36 now looking at the top of the page it's an email um you sent to alex foam and the starts on the the start of it is on the bottom of page one but we don't need to go to that you say there on the second line could you let me know when

01:34:48 second line could you let me know when we are ready to sign off some doors after setting the standard and if we go back onto page or the bottom of page one

01:34:58 uh we see alex fomen's response which is abby do you want lh lhc to sign them off or do you want me to indicate which ones are ready for handover i'll pop on site

01:35:09 are ready for handover i'll pop on site after lunch today and can discuss plan of action with andy now what did you mean when you use the phrase when we are ready to sign off so when doors were ready to be handed

01:35:21 so when doors were ready to be handed over to us and did you expect alex fomen to sign off on every door that had been fitted no

01:35:30 no what were you expecting him to look at was it a sample yes a 10 sample

01:35:38 now we have the last email in this chain which is at the top of page one

01:35:46 when you say alex high please indicate which ones are ready as i would like to be there for sign off can you help us what was the process of signing off of these doors so when mance

01:35:58 signing off of these doors so when mance was ready ahead of handing over the doors alex would go on site and ensure that the doors were installed correctly he would then inform us of that we would then either myself

01:36:10 us of that we would then either myself or the clerk works of the tmo or carl at times would go on sites to ensure that everything was ready for handover and completed as per the spec and then we

01:36:21 completed as per the spec and then we would issue the practical conclusion why did you want to be there just to make sure that the properties that they said were completed had been completed for payment purposes were you present for all handovers no

01:36:34 were you present for all handovers no right were you just present for the initial ones yes and then did you stop attending thereafter yes

01:36:47 can we go to tmo double zero eight six seven one five eight

01:36:57 and if we go um to the i think it's the top of the page you say in the second line

01:37:05 line or rather yes you do there's an email to natasha brown at marsidor

01:37:10 marsidor uh copying an alex foaming you say this alex please ensure that prior to work's been signed off that residents can use door now again is it right you're using alex fomen here in the clerk of works role

01:37:21 fomen here in the clerk of works role yes

01:37:23 yes checking that work the doors are working satisfactorily yes

01:37:31 did you have any specific discussions with alex foman about him undertaking clark of the works job

01:37:38 no not that i recall and so basically you handled matters via email correspondence yes and phone calls if you just sorry i understand the temptation to answer the

01:37:50 understand the temptation to answer the question

01:37:50 question um

01:37:51 um but actually you deal via phone and via email asking to do tasks that are that seem to be at least the traditional remit of the clerk of works is that right correct

01:38:04 now can i turn to the question of site visit reports and

01:38:08 and these reports seem to be forwarded to carl stokes as a matter of routine is that a fair assumption yes

01:38:15 were you expecting carl stokes to pick up any problems and bring them to your attention yes did you before forwarding uh these reports did you consider them yourself or did you just automatically forward

01:38:27 or did you just automatically forward them to carl stokes myself and also mike at the time as well as um the health and safety team carl and what were you expecting to come back from mr stokes well if there was any

01:38:39 from mr stokes well if there was any issues with the installation when he was also

01:38:43 also his inspections post alex's for him to address them so we could address them on site ahead of practical completion we wouldn't sign off a door with practical completion if

01:38:54 off a door with practical completion if there wasn't a hearing to what they should be doing can we go to lhc quadruple zero double zero zero eight forward slash two

01:39:13 now this uh appears to be a standard site visit report is that right yes and they consisted of summary descriptions of the problems that were identified is that right yes

01:39:25 identified is that right yes and if we can look um see roughly halfway down the page of comments in relation to king charles house

01:39:32 house and if we look at the third comment in relation to door 13 it says the door was inspected externally and appeared to be professionally installed however fixings and operation of door closer were not

01:39:43 and operation of door closer were not checked

01:39:44 checked were most of the inspections external only yes

01:39:48 only yes and why was that i don't know that's just standard practice that tmo had and the

01:39:57 and the corollary would be or the consequence would be that mr feyman was unable to check the fire safety features of the doors such as a self-closing device strips and seals and the rest of it is that right yes

01:40:09 that right yes if residents were in at the time then we would knock on resident stores to ensure that was done

01:40:18 did the fact that the majority of the inspections were external and did not include inspection of the self-closing device strips and seals did that cause you any degree of concern at

01:40:29 that cause you any degree of concern at the time given the importance of those features for ensuring fire safety protection was as assured as it could be no because mance didn't give us concerns

01:40:40 concerns as such of their workmanship so nothing was flagged up to you no can we

01:40:47 can we de-amplify this page and you'll see at the top there are various items in relation to grenfell itself and you'll see the first item there is the door in respect to flat 162 and it says this door frame was out of

01:40:58 and it says this door frame was out of plumb it was not possible to lock the door rlo and fitters have been advised and it was confirmed that a rectification was arranged um were you arranged were you aware of

01:41:10 were you arranged were you aware of similar

01:41:11 similar issues yes those are not day-to-day issues that arise during a contract but they do and whilst on site they are dealt with on site

01:41:22 on site and flowing from that uh answer what arrangements were in place to rectify these deficiencies so if there was a deficiency we would liaise with mance we would instruct them

01:41:34 liaise with mance we would instruct them to rectify it they would come back to us with a verification as to when it was done and then lorna our resident liaison officer would either go to site or contact the resident to ensure that they were happy

01:41:46 resident to ensure that they were happy with now the lorna is that lorna pemberton now lorna cunningham cunningham and and lorna cunningham's role was to she was effectively verifying that the works

01:41:57 was effectively verifying that the works had been the rectification works had been satisfactorily completed with the residents she was the resident liaison officer

01:42:04 officer now can we go to cst quadruple zero one six two zero

01:42:10 and we see here at the bottom of page one alex fomen emailed you on the 14th of june 2011. and he said that he'd inspected 45 doors and that was 28 of the required number

01:42:22 and that was 28 of the required number to be inspected um was that the first time you were made aware that he was only expecting a sample or a proportion of properties were you aware that's what the plan was beforehand yes that was the plan but

01:42:34 beforehand yes that was the plan but usually it's a 10 and did you expressly agree that it would be 10 or was that an unspoken an unspoken assumption

01:42:49 now in total it appears that he inspected some 137 doors including the trial door out of a program of 1197 doors

01:43:00 1197 doors did you think at the time that was an acceptable proportion to be inspected

01:43:08 i well at the time were you satisfied that inspecting 137 out of nearly 1200 was acceptable for your purposes

01:43:19 purposes yes at the time yes

01:43:27 now if we can go to

01:43:31 tm00867384

01:43:36 on the bottom of that page

01:43:41 it's another email chain you emailed alex fomen on the 24th of june sorry 27th of june asking could you ensure the very bottom of the page could

01:43:53 ensure the very bottom of the page could you ensure that the report is reflective of actual works been undertaken for audit purposes what did you mean by audit purposes here and for my projects i always created an audit file with key

01:44:05 i always created an audit file with key information and certificates so if we needed to refer back to it or any other internal stakeholders the information was there and accessible and what was key information for these

01:44:16 what was key information for these purposes

01:44:18 purposes certificates anything that arose doing works that i.e repairs that were important so like the device closes etc

01:44:29 etc um given that alex fomen was only looking at a limited sample was your view that those reports were nonetheless sufficient for your

01:44:40 nonetheless sufficient for your self-created audit purposes yes

01:44:44 yes now if we can go to

01:44:46 to stay on this page and it's the top of page one

01:44:50 page one and alex foman said this it was never intended to inspect all properties in the contract i have inspected only those properties which had doors installed or being installed on that day obviously this one was installed at the later time

01:45:04 this one was installed at the later time now would it be fair to say that was the first

01:45:08 first it looks at first blush that was the first time that alex fomen said he would not be looking at every door installed

01:45:18 when you became aware that alex fomen was not looking at every door did you reconsider at all whether a clerk of works was needed to ensure that the balance

01:45:28 balance would have yes this was raised at one to once with my line manager and so you're saying that in or about june 2011 you raised these matters with valerie sharp or with mike

01:45:40 valerie sharp or with mike yes

01:45:41 yes because he came i think in july 2011. okay well

01:45:46 okay well valerie then at the time yes i always made clear that i didn't have the technical can you help us then what steps you proactively took to ensure that the doors that had not been examined by mr

01:45:59 doors that had not been examined by mr fomen were inspected to ensure that they'd been satisfactorily installed well that's where carl came in

01:46:06 you said that's when carl came in can you help us as to what you as we would have expected health and safety with car support to be also doing a further 10

01:46:18 doing a further 10 maybe not the same ones that alex did and recheck what alex did as well so

01:46:24 so let's look at each element of that when you refer to health and safety are you simply referring to janice ray well and her team not just janice well how many people are in her team from what i recall carl was there a gentleman

01:46:36 what i recall carl was there a gentleman called adrian i'm not sure who else and

01:46:41 and you're expecting carl stokes to carry out his own sampling exercise and an inspection of the works that fomen had inspected is that right yes was that expectation confirmed in any

01:46:53 was that expectation confirmed in any email correspondence or was it again something that had been arranged verbally or was an unspoken assumption verbally

01:47:00 verbally and with whom had you agreed that i'd spoken to my line manager and he said he would raise it with the head at the time so

01:47:10 so would you say he so mike that expectation was

01:47:15 was your expectation was made clear to mr halliman therefore the reference to he so it'd be after july 2011. did he confirm to you that he discussed the matter with janice ray

01:47:27 the matter with janice ray no

01:47:28 no you just assumed that he had made good what you asked of him yes

01:47:36 uh can we go to a witness statement from mr fomen lhc

01:47:43 quadruple zero quadruple zero nine forward slash two

01:47:56 and it's paragraph six a roman four

01:48:03 he says that he had no authority to sign off any installations only advisory role site visit reports were issued to both supplier and member for information in relation to his role in the programme

01:48:16 in relation to his role in the programme were you aware that that was the limits of his remit and responsibility yes

01:48:23 and in particular that he had no authority to sign off installations i wasn't aware of that i don't recall that i don't recall that

01:48:33 would you agree that the reports he provided were only for information yes

01:48:42 which 10 suggests that he didn't have authority to sign off installations would you agree with that yes thank you can we now look at the sign-off process um is it right to say that there were weekly on-site meetings whilst you're a

01:48:54 weekly on-site meetings whilst you're a project manager monthly monthly weekly once we're undertaken by the clerical

01:49:01 clerical clerk works role and carl and what was the purpose of your monthly meetings um it was just to ensure that works were how they were progressing on programme

01:49:13 how they were progressing on programme payments and valuations and if and also resident matters i.e complaints etc or if any

01:49:22 if any riddles were reported as well so any incidents on site accidents say with with operatives

01:49:32 you're referring to r-i-d-o-r yes and the responsibility to report certain accidents involving injuries

01:49:41 authorities that's correct now um you say did you attended these meetings presumably yes and were minutes ever taken yes

01:49:50 taken yes and you were responsible for preparing those minutes now in your witness statement of paragraph 8 we don't need to go to it but the reference is tmo

01:49:59 tmo 00862539

01:50:01 00862539 you say this that works on site were approved and signed off by clerk of works and health and safety coordinator bailey gardner once they signed off on site with mars mustador i would do formal sign off with

01:50:13 mustador i would do formal sign off with them and issue practical completion for that phase of works now was it your expectation that every door installed under the program would be

01:50:22 be independently inspected

01:50:26 sorry when you say independently do you mean by a third party yes no and you are solely reliant upon foaming and stokes yes um

01:50:38 and stokes yes um were bailey gardner ever formally instructed by you or to the best of your knowledge anyone else at the tmo to inspect any doors not formally but under cdm coordinator

01:50:50 not formally but under cdm coordinator they would do an uh

01:50:53 do an uh again a sample inspection to ensure things were done correctly ahead of them compiling our health and safety files but differently did anyone other than alex fomen provide you with reports on

01:51:05 alex fomen provide you with reports on the quality of installation no

01:51:10 now andrew webster in his statement and that can be found at met

01:51:16 at met treble

01:51:19 five 0065153 forward slash four says this

01:51:23 says this we don't need to go to it but at the conclusion of the door replacement project site visits were conducted in the presence of abia costa and alex fomen

01:51:31 fomen the doors were signed off by the kc tmo surveyor and this was at first abby acosta and towards the end various other people as stand-ins what do you think

01:51:42 what do you think how did you put yourself forward as being a casey tumor surveyor no

01:51:47 no no i wasn't a surveyor i'm not qualified to be a surveyor

01:51:54 can you help us how frequently you carried out site inspections when mr webster was present some at the beginning probably about twice a week maybe three times a week but as the program progressed and things

01:52:06 but as the program progressed and things were going on well i only attended site at

01:52:10 at handovers or if there was a real

01:52:15 concern of the matter just following on from that answer what particular event would trigger handover and practical completion handover was when

01:52:26 when doors were inspected um

01:52:29 um practical completion would follow follow that so a few days later all week etcetera once we had all the relevant paperwork then we could issue the practical completion to months and were

01:52:40 practical completion to months and were you alone responsible for issuing practical completion certificates

01:52:46 was practical completion supposed to be done on a block by block basis yes so each block would be signed off when all the flats had had their doors replaced that's correct now if we can go to tm008690111

01:53:09 now will you confirm for us this is a practical completion form yes and was it your signature that was required under the client box yes at the bottom of the

01:53:20 the client box yes at the bottom of the page

01:53:26 absence of signature from either the lh lhc technical officer or you can suggest that neither was present for the handover of doors at grenfell is that a fair reading of this certificate is a fair

01:53:38 reading of this certificate is a fair reading yes

01:53:45 so

01:53:47 when would you sign these certificates and on basis of what information our monthly site meetings would you simply sign a bundle of them as you went through um would you ask because you signed say

01:53:59 um would you ask because you signed say for example flat 11 would you ask whether any issues arising on what basis would you sign it yes so we would ask if we would look at past minutes as well if there was issues

01:54:10 past minutes as well if there was issues to ensure that matters had been closed and addressed as well as with the support of the resident liaison officer and at time post meetings we would then maybe do a walk around the blocks just

01:54:22 maybe do a walk around the blocks just to make sure and doing a visual on each floor to make sure that

01:54:27 sure that everything was okay beforehand over itself were the certificates ever signed by the lhc's technical officer not that i recall now so it'd be solely your sign off yes

01:54:38 so it'd be solely your sign off yes would alex foman be present at these monthly meetings sometimes yes but not always not always no

01:54:46 do you recall any training being offered or provided by master door during the course of the program to the tmos caretakers esa's yes and also the day-to-day repair

01:54:57 day-to-day repair operatives so once that handover the doors had a 10-year warranty which mance would go back and rectify but obviously it was imminent that the operatives were also trained

01:55:08 operatives were also trained to

01:55:09 to enable them to undertake the correct repairs

01:55:12 repairs because if not then it could um obviously affect the kind of integrity of the door if there was a fitted properly or repaired properly as such

01:55:24 repaired properly as such can i

01:55:25 can i now turn to a separate topic which is the strength of the self-closing devices

01:55:33 um if any issue had been identified with a self-closing device during this process was that problem reported to janice ray and or the health and safety team they were indeed and what were the

01:55:44 were indeed and what were the arrangements for making those reports sorry

01:55:49 sorry in relation so when something was identified if there was a problem with thinking particularly about self-closing devices when that problem was identified would janice ray and or her health and

01:56:00 would janice ray and or her health and safety team be immediately notified yes yes what were the arrangements for making those notifications um either via email or a call or we would have a quick internal meeting

01:56:12 internal meeting and discuss the matter on how we would obviously move things forward and would they be kept updated um about the

01:56:22 the any issues cropping up with the installation of doors and everything they were sea sea'd into all the minutes so even if they didn't attend uh monthly site progress meetings that

01:56:33 uh monthly site progress meetings that would also be included as part of the monthly progress meetings if it was identified within that month or now one of the issues that cropped up was the strength of the self-closing

01:56:44 was the strength of the self-closing devices and i think i'm right in saying that um one issue emerged that the devices were too strong for frail residents to allow them to open the door easily is

01:56:56 allow them to open the door easily is that

01:56:57 that an accurate recollection yes now if we can go to the second site visit report which can be found at lhc quadruple 0019

01:57:12 now this uh concerned meetings or rather site visits on the 17th 18th and 19th of may 2011 and we can see

01:57:23 and we can see that four door closers were listed as needing to be adjusted on page two

01:57:32 and those doors were one zero two one zero three one nine one one nine now did it give you cause for concern that a number of the newly installed doors were not classified as okay or

01:57:45 doors were not classified as okay or professionally installed

01:57:48 no why was that because um because i would how could i explain that um

01:57:57 um just because they were the adjustments were hard or stiff it doesn't mean that they installed them incorrectly um generally um i found with the program and it still has with with other

01:58:09 and it still has with with other employers that um vulnerable residents and elderly residents do tend to find the doors quite heavy because they are heavy doors so it wasn't a concern that

01:58:20 heavy doors so it wasn't a concern that the door was not integra as such it was just having to work around to minimise say elderly residents having difficulties in

01:58:31 difficulties in closing their doors so what did you ask mance masterdoor to do as a workaround to use your phrase so easy to ease the doors to allow frail residents to open them so we addressed the issue with them

01:58:43 them so we addressed the issue with them at the time lorna also our residential officer was quite highly involved in this side because obviously she worked close closer with residents

01:58:54 residents mance went back and had a look and they came back with different specifications and different resolutions which was then passed on to mike hallimund he was my line manager again

01:59:06 hallimund he was my line manager again at the time which had more technical expertise and they approved to change the closest to an automatic one only to those residents that had severe issues

01:59:18 those residents that had severe issues and vulnerable issues with with opening and closing their doors and what steps would take did you take to ensure that esa's and caretakers were aware of what needed to

01:59:29 caretakers were aware of what needed to done to adjust or to deal with the issue short of replacement of the self-closing device i know mance spoke to caretakers and some training

01:59:40 spoke to caretakers and some training was taken but i did not form part of that do you remember whether janice ray was involved in discussions about how best to adjust the problems with self-closing devices yes she was because

01:59:51 self-closing devices yes she was because residents yes because she also addressed some

01:59:54 some concerns to us as well because information at times not just came through our customer service team it would have come sometimes directly through our complaints and sometimes through genesis team or other internal

02:00:06 through genesis team or other internal stakeholders now following on from those answers can we turn to um advice you received from carl stokes in a letter on the 4th of august 2011

02:00:17 a letter on the 4th of august 2011 and that can be found at tm00867927

02:00:28 and if we go to page three of this letter

02:00:32 letter and the first paragraph of the section under the heading conclusion and it says this i would advise that self-closing devices where fitted to a flat entrance door located in a

02:00:43 flat entrance door located in a protected staircase or a protected corridor should not be removed this existing situation is being made worse a building regulations term and by removing the self-closing device and you could be placing

02:00:55 could be placing one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in the case of a fire

02:01:00 fire and then a case of a fire and then if we look at the next paragraph he said he proposes a solution in the following terms there are alternative solutions to removing the self-closing device from the flat engine

02:01:11 self-closing device from the flat engine store if you'd like me to attend a meeting with the providers of the doors with yourselves please instruct me do you know whether mr stokes met mance mastador or yourself to discuss is

02:01:22 mastador or yourself to discuss is alternative solutions no

02:01:25 no i don't recall do you remember recall any meeting with costa expect this issue we've we've had we had i do recall having email exchanges but not a meeting i don't recall having a meeting were any alternative solutions identified and

02:01:37 alternative solutions identified and agreed upon yes and did you agree them with mr stokes i didn't agree that mike halliman agreed them and then i fed that information back to internal stakeholders so is the

02:01:48 back to internal stakeholders so is the correspondence between stokes and haliman rather than yourself and stakes and you were told the result of it and then communicated that to relevant people yes and to mance obviously

02:01:59 and to mance obviously is it fair to say that after reading this letter uh you were completely clear that self-closing devices were not to be removed yes

02:02:10 devices were not to be removed yes was that message communicated to caretakers and esa's yes and sheltered accommodation schemes via lorna our resident liaison officer because she was on site more and we did identify some

02:02:22 on site more and we did identify some properties that had taken them out and we had to go back and install them back in so did you expressly instruct lorna cunningham to make sure that the caretaker's essays understood the

02:02:33 caretaker's essays understood the position yeah not instruct but she was copied into the emails

02:02:38 emails so are you assuming therefore that she took those steps or can you speak directly to the panel and say no i'm assuming

02:02:48 what conversations did you have or the best of your knowledge mr halliman had with master daw about the suitability of alternative soft closing devices well i i emailed him all the

02:02:59 devices well i i emailed him all the relevant additional information that mance had sent us with pricing mike took that away and from what i recall he came back to me to say that he was satisfied with the new proposed

02:03:11 was satisfied with the new proposed device that mance was proposing and to go ahead with it because it was an additional funding to it as well so we had to seek authority for it or approval

02:03:26 and would lorna cunningham have been responsible for um checking with frail residents that uh any remedial works has been satisfactorily completed to allow them to open their door that's correct

02:03:37 them to open their door that's correct yes

02:03:38 yes and you won't be able to assist the panel on that no can i now turn to the new topic of a failure of the the self-closer fixings and mechanical faults

02:03:49 faults and if we could go to an email which can be found at m a s quadruple zero zero one eight seven forward slash eight two

02:04:09 now this is an email from master doors uh andy webster to others at mans master door you're not included

02:04:17 included and indicates there that there was a manufacturing issue with the self-closing devices did mr webster or indeed anyone at mont's master door communicate that problem to

02:04:29 master door communicate that problem to you no

02:04:34 could we turn to

02:04:37 double tm00867 eight three four slash three

02:04:49 and we see at the bottom of that page an email it's the first one in the chain dated the 21st of july 2011. col stokes emailed you stating this on tuesday i was at lancaster west and was informed

02:05:01 was at lancaster west and was informed that the self-closing device on three of the new flat entrance doors have come away from the door this is the same problem as in king charles house are you aware of this recurring fault and if we

02:05:12 aware of this recurring fault and if we go to the top of this page i page three we see your response on the 25th of july call stokes

02:05:22 indicates this problem is occurring because the screws holding the closer into the doors are very short at least at king charles house there we go

02:05:32 first of all were you concerned by that news yes and what did you do to remedy it i then emailed mance straight away to to ask as to why it was happening

02:05:44 to to ask as to why it was happening and what response did you get from them from what i recall i think andy had said that the um fixing screws were smaller so

02:05:54 so he was he

02:05:56 he was he ordered bigger wider fixings but it wasn't

02:06:00 wasn't the normal kind of manufacturing there wasn't a normal issue but that they were using the bigger screw fixings for precautionary measures now if we could

02:06:11 precautionary measures now if we could go back to page two in this chain and particularly the top of page two

02:06:19 we have an email from andy webster on the 26th of july is this the response that you were referring to in your earlier answer yes

02:06:27 yes yes

02:06:28 yes did mans master door tell you which properties were affected by this problem yes

02:06:33 yes was it many i don't recall how many sorry what arrangements did you put in place to ensure that the affected doors had been repaired

02:06:44 repaired well once

02:06:47 well once mance mastador would have confirmed that they would have been done then carl

02:06:52 then carl or somebody from the health and safety team would have been notified so they would have hopefully gone on site to make sure it was done am i right in understanding please shout if i'm not

02:07:04 if i'm not that man's master door did not replace screws on all doors they simply changed the screws on the affected doors that's correct

02:07:15 that's correct as far as you were aware did that resolve the problem as far as i was away yes

02:07:22 after this email correspondence with andy webster did you have any further discussions with him or anyone else at mars mastador about this particular issue we would have had an internal discussion maybe verbally i would have

02:07:34 discussion maybe verbally i would have raised it with mike whom i want to once definitely to say that this has occurred but that we found a remedial to it um did you check with mance mastador that all doors at grenfell had been

02:07:45 that all doors at grenfell had been checked and fixings change when necessary

02:07:49 necessary if if fixes were required then yes we would have how did you keep track of how did you first of all know the extent of the problem and how did you keep track of

02:08:01 problem and how did you keep track of the remedial measures designed to deal with it

02:08:05 with it well the remedial measures obviously they would give us a list and say a date of when the remedial works took place and either i would then work with our resident liaison office

02:08:17 work with our resident liaison office circus lorna would be the one ensuring that she would contact the resident to ensure that mance had made that appointment now if we can now turn to um

02:08:29 now if we can now turn to um minutes of a project meet progress meeting in the first november 2011 that can be found at mas quadruple zero zero three two five forward slash four

02:08:40 forward slash four on particular paragraph six point two

02:08:46 and we see that aw presumably andy webster confirmed that hinges are being replaced and manufacturers are looking into fault and supply and replacement that will be fit for purpose um

02:08:58 that will be fit for purpose um is it fair to say that you raised this issue with hinges at that time with andy webster or did webster spontaneously report it to you um no we definitely reported it to them they had the list of

02:09:09 reported it to them they had the list of all especially with via natasha who was their resident liaison officer so she worked quite closely with lorna so any issues raised by residents they would have been aware of straight away

02:09:21 have been aware of straight away now did the issue with hinges relate to all of the self-closing devices that had been fitted no can you give the panel your recollection of the extent of the issue with hinges

02:09:33 of the extent of the issue with hinges how many properties have i think like

02:09:36 like it's shown king king charles house had a few i think a few sheltered accommodation ones as well but i can't really say the percentage of it i'm afraid now you say that it was recorded

02:09:47 afraid now you say that it was recorded there at 6.3 that the client that you uh would like uh london housing consortium to check if you wants from a place to ensure suitable was that done i would have instructed alex that next

02:09:59 i would have instructed alex that next time he's on site to have a look so they would have been informed yes you say would have did you i can't remember

02:10:14 now were you aware of circumstances in which residents or the handyman at grenfell such as shame as dunlee um were proactively removing and not replacing or repairing self-closing devices

02:10:26 devices can you repeat that sorry were you aware that self-closing devices were being removed by residents and indeed sheamus dunley one of the repairmen at grenfell

02:10:39 thank you so i've come to the end of my prepared questions might i ask for 10 minutes to see whether there's anything i've missed which i'll not have done and see where there any other relevant courses

02:10:50 there any other relevant courses well mr costa when council gets the end of his

02:10:53 of his questions we always have a short break to enable him to check he's not left anything out and and to enable others who are following the proceedings but not

02:11:02 but not from the room can suggest further questions that perhaps we ought to ask you so we'll get a stop now we'll come back at 25 past 12 and then we'll find out whether there are any additional questions

02:11:15 are any additional questions right and again while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence okay thank you all right thank you would you like to go to the usher please

02:11:32 all right 25 percent

02:24:21 yes could you ask mr costa to come back in please

02:24:34 all right mr costa well let's see if there are any more questions for you yes we're sticking here miss costa there are no further questions so that simply leaves me to say thank you very much for attending today it's much appreciated you're welcome thank you mr koster i

02:24:45 you're welcome thank you mr koster i should thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel for coming to give your evidence i'm sure it's been inconvenient for you to do that and i'm sorry about that but it's important that we hear from people who were

02:24:56 that we hear from people who were directly involved in various aspects of the matter and so we uh it's very helpful to hear what you have to tell us so thank you very much for coming thank you and i'm glad to say you're now free to go thank you all

02:25:08 you're now free to go thank you all right thank you very much thank you you'd like to go to the usher then thank you

02:25:21 yes we're sticking here now what is the next

02:25:25 next the next one the next witness sir will be mr colin todd yes before mr millet calls him there's one final thing which i need to do and that's for me to read into the record uh further witness statements

02:25:36 record uh further witness statements which are relevant to module three thank you very much um i'll do that by referring to a single document which is a schedule that sets out witness statements company and organized organization details and

02:25:47 and organized organization details and the relevant urn so that those who can want to can examine precisely what those witnesses are saying and set out in their statements the reference to that

02:25:58 statements the reference to that schedule is idx0767

02:26:02 the schedule consists of 10 pages and so by

02:26:06 by formally reading that schedule into the record that is the way of reading all of the witness statements set out there formally into the record and that schedule will be available on the

02:26:17 schedule will be available on the inquiries website thank you course yes so that brings to an end the factual evidence for module three uh there however remains uh expert evidence from mr todd uh miss menzies

02:26:28 evidence from mr todd uh miss menzies and dr lane yes thank you now do you know is mr todd available to start giving his evidence before we break for lunch or um he is as i understand it and so i'd invite you to

02:26:40 understand it and so i'd invite you to rise for the usual housekeeping arrangements to be made yes we'll need a short break anyway shall we and um i suggest that you ask the usher to come and get us when you're ready thank you thank you very much

02:36:20 yes just a minute mr chairman good uh good afternoon i now call mr colin todd please thank you very much yes please

02:36:39 good afternoon mr todd good afternoon chairman i understand you're going to make the affirmation is that right yes that's correct and it's on the screen in front of you please i do solemnly sincerely and truly

02:36:50 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much and do sit down make yourself comfortable

02:37:05 yes mr military chairman thank you mr todd good afternoon good afternoon sir um can i begin by thanking you very much for your coming to the inquiry and assisting us with your opinions

02:37:17 assisting us with your opinions my questions about your opinions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they may not turn out that way if you want me to repeat the question or put it in a different way i'm very happy to do that can i also ask you please to keep your

02:37:29 can i also ask you please to keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your immediate right can get down everything you say a simple yes or no is as good as that uh shaking your head or nodding your head doesn't doesn't

02:37:41 or nodding your head doesn't doesn't work because it doesn't go onto the transcript thank you sir now and if you need a break at any time other than the scheduled breaks we'll take please let us know thank you sir now you've provided two reports to the inquiry for this phase two haven't you

02:37:53 this phase two haven't you uh under supplementary oh sorry for phase two yes yes uh the first one let's look at that it's at 6011

02:38:02 6011 and that's entitled report for the grenfell tower inquiry grenfell tower the fire risk assessments of carl stokes and you can see at the bottom of page one there that it's dated august 2020

02:38:15 one there that it's dated august 2020 first can you confirm formally that that is your report yes it is sir and i'm going to refer that to your main report the signature's on page two we don't need to look at it the second report that you've helpfully provided us with

02:38:27 that you've helpfully provided us with is a supplemental report at cta 6038 please

02:38:34 can you confirm for us that that is your supplementary report yes sir that's correct i'll call it that and again uh can you confirm that it's yours yes sir uh and there's a signature on page two

02:38:45 uh and there's a signature on page two if we need to look at it um are the factual matters the factual matters that you've set out in your reports true to the best of your knowledge and belief they are sir can you confirm that the report set out your

02:38:56 you confirm that the report set out your true and complete professional opinion on the matters that you've addressed within them i can sir yes can you confirm that you've understood your duty to the inquiry as an expert

02:39:07 your duty to the inquiry as an expert and that you've complied with that duty yes sir yes yes to both questions yes yes uh and have you given evidence and the opinions set out in these reports in the same way that you would do to a

02:39:20 the same way that you would do to a court yes i have sir and you've abided by the same principles yes yes sir the cpr yes

02:39:27 cpr yes now it's also right isn't it that you've provided a witness statement to the inquiry for phase two that's at cta uh

02:39:34 uh six zeros 12. if we just have that up please uh and that is dated uh the 11th of may 2021 as we can see at the bottom of that first page there if we go to page 20 can we look at that

02:39:46 if we go to page 20 can we look at that please

02:39:50 we can see that above the date of the 11th of may 2021 is your signature uh have you read this witness statement recently i have sir last night you have last night just confirmed formally for

02:40:01 last night just confirmed formally for me would you if you would that that is your signature yes sir it is yes and can you confirm that the contents of that witness statement are true yes sir thank you

02:40:09 you uh now your reports and this witness statement stand as your evidence to the inquiry

02:40:13 inquiry uh i'm going to focus on those matters which in respect of your reports are truly ones of expert opinion uh and where there have been material developments in the evidence given to

02:40:24 developments in the evidence given to the inquiry provided uh so far

02:40:28 so far um

02:40:29 um do you understand what i'm going to try to do yes sir i do very good now the inquiry understands that you've been involved in developing standards relevant to fire risk assessments after the grenfell tower

02:40:40 assessments after the grenfell tower fire but unless i ask you otherwise my questions are going to be focused on the standards and the practice of the reasonably competent fire risk assessor as they existed before the fire at

02:40:52 as they existed before the fire at grenfell tower on the 14th of june 2017. do you understand that yes that's clear sir thank you thank you can i begin substantively then please with your qualifications and your experience

02:41:04 qualifications and your experience can we go please to cta 6011 page 149 your main report annex e this is where you set out your

02:41:15 this is where you set out your qualifications and you can see on the page there that you've got you've set out your academic qualifications your professional body qualifications uh and your uh expert witness experience

02:41:28 your uh expert witness experience yes uh now at the top of page 149 you can see um that you completed a masters in fire safety engineering in 1975 yes yes sir that's correct uh and you are a

02:41:40 yes sir that's correct uh and you are a chartered engineer a chartered building engineer and a fellow of the institution of fire engineers the ife correct correct

02:41:48 correct when did you become a chartered engineer um

02:41:54 1982 sir and when did you become a fellow of the ife oh gosh um

02:42:02 um that would be

02:42:05 some considerable time after 1992. i want to say probably

02:42:11 probably i'd be guessing so perhaps 10 15 years ago

02:42:14 ago right

02:42:15 right and you said in the last answer after 1992 did you mean 1982 sorry did i yeah after 1982 i became a chartered engineer in 82 through the

02:42:26 through the then institution of electrical engineers which now is now the iet and i'm dual registered as a chartered engineer so i'm registered as a chartered engineer by the iet

02:42:38 chartered engineer by the iet which is what the institution of electrical engineers became but i'm also registered by the institution of fire engineers yes and if we go to page 153 in this

02:42:49 and if we go to page 153 in this document please we can see that you describe your consultancy practice there

02:42:57 there and

02:42:58 and you say

02:42:59 you say in the third paragraph in the

02:43:03 in the third line cs told associates this specialist practice provides consultancy services in all aspects of fire prevention fire protection and fire safety engineering

02:43:14 safety engineering that's that's correct still today is it yes sir that's right and if we go to um to page six in the same document much earlier on page six

02:43:26 we see under paragraph one point thirteen there the first bullet point uh you say i've carried out fras and have been responsible for quality assurance of fras carried out by others in my

02:43:38 of fras carried out by others in my consulting practice since fras first became a legal requirement in december 1997. yes and that you can confirm that today yes sir i can yes and then if you

02:43:49 today yes sir i can yes and then if you continue down to the next bullet point down you say that you're the technical author of all versions all versions of the bsi bsi publication pass 79 publicly

02:44:00 the bsi bsi publication pass 79 publicly available specification 79. is that right yes sir and that provides guidance on far risk assessments doesn't it that's correct so and just to be clear for us can you just confirm the dates of publications of

02:44:12 confirm the dates of publications of each of those editions for which you were responsible were 2005 2007 and 2012. yes the first version was in 2005 and that was under previous legislation

02:44:24 and that was under previous legislation then 2007 was to reflect the fire safety order and then 2012 was simply a revision to bring it absolutely up to date yes and that was august 2012.

02:44:37 date yes and that was august 2012. uh it i can't tell you the month so i'll come back to that because it may it may be important later is it right that you were also involved in some of the drafting and the development of the competency criteria

02:44:50 development of the competency criteria for fire risk assessors first published by the fire risk assessment competency council or frac as i think it's known on the 21st of december 2011. yes sir that's correct

02:45:02 that's correct uh to what extent were you involved in that

02:45:04 that so

02:45:05 so uh on that the the the fire risk assessment competency council was a group of around about 30 stakeholders in the fire sector

02:45:17 in the fire sector who came together because of concerns within the sector about the competence of fire risk assessors and

02:45:25 and i think my i i was either co-opted or i think i represented the fire industry association i think it was the latter uh and in that

02:45:36 i think it was the latter uh and in that role i drafted uh quite a lot of the the standard

02:45:41 standard or the

02:45:43 or the competency criteria on behalf of the the group for their consideration right can you tell us very briefly which parts uh certainly the introduction

02:45:55 uh certainly the introduction uh and the the sort of introductory parts to it uh and then um the

02:46:04 um the competency standard is a series of appendices really that's the the the bulk of the the standard and what it does is it breaks down fire

02:46:15 and what it does is it breaks down fire safety into a number of subject areas uh with a separate appendix for each subject area and i draft i prepared the first draft of

02:46:26 of quite a number of the subject areas probably

02:46:29 probably four or five uh of the subject areas uh now if we go to page so we'll stay on page six and look at the third bullet point you say there that since uh 2003 you've been chairman of the ife

02:46:42 uh 2003 you've been chairman of the ife panel that registers both assessors and auditors are you still the chairman i stepped down just recently because i had been there a long time and i have a high workload so i swapped with the

02:46:56 a high workload so i swapped with the current or the then current vice chairman so he's now become chairman uh and i i'm now vice chairman i see uh and in the fourth bullet point you say and i summarize that since 2008

02:47:09 you say and i summarize that since 2008 you have chaired the fire risk assessment council of the fire industry association the fia which you've referred to just a moment ago uh and you'll remain chairman until october this year is that right that's correct

02:47:20 this year is that right that's correct that's still the case is it yes it is uh in the seventh bullet point second from the bottom of the page if we just scroll down a little please you say uh i've delivered in-house training you say i've lived in-house training

02:47:31 you say i've lived in-house training courses on fire risk assessment for many fire and rescue services these courses have been attended by delegates from around 50 percent of fire and rescue services in the uk and is it right that um mr stokes

02:47:44 and is it right that um mr stokes undertook some of those courses uh he undertook uh a fire risk assessment course i think he also went on a course uh that we delivered on fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats and the

02:47:56 purpose built blocks of flats and the lga guide which no doubt you will return to at some stage but in terms of fire risk assessment we delivered an in-house course to oxfordshire fire and rescue service on

02:48:07 oxfordshire fire and rescue service on behalf of the northern ireland fire safety panel and

02:48:12 and according to our records and mr stokes evidence he was a delegate on that course although i don't specifically remember him right thank you we'll come to the lga guidance in just a moment before i do is there anything

02:48:24 before i do is there anything in addition to paragraph 113 that you see on the page there or anything in nxe that you'd like to add by way of uh reference to your qualifications and experience i don't think so sir no very good now can i ask

02:48:37 think so sir no very good now can i ask you then about the lga guide can we please go

02:48:40 please go to paragraph 42 of your supplemental witness statement which is cta uh

02:48:47 uh six zeros twelve page nine paragraph forty two

02:49:00 uh and you say here even taking the appendices into account the final text for which i was originally responsible amounts to less than 25 of the entire document i'm aware

02:49:11 than 25 of the entire document i'm aware that certain lawyers for cps as well as social media and social certain specialist publications have characterized me as the author of the lga guide in view of the circumstances outlined above i wish to record for the

02:49:22 outlined above i wish to record for the inquiry my dissatisfaction with this characterization which at best is an approximation born of abbreviation or at worst is a misrepresentation of the truth

02:49:32 truth and can we go to inq3014819 please this is your linkedin profiles yes stand it can you confirm that yes that's correct yes if

02:49:43 confirm that yes that's correct yes if we go to page four

02:49:46 uh you say on page four uh in the middle of the page under accomplishments three projects and the second one down is draft guidance on fire safety in purpose-built blocks of flats june 2011. yes sir that's correct yes cs todd and

02:49:58 yes sir that's correct yes cs todd and associates were appointed to draft new national guidance for england and wales on fire safety and purpose-built blocks of flats i was ultimately responsible for the delivery of this guidance and i was one of a team of three within the

02:50:09 was one of a team of three within the practice who drafted the guidance yes sir that's great did you write those words in this profile um i probably did uh or if i didn't i would have authorized them

02:50:20 them right so you're you're content here today to adopt them as yours are you yes sir yeah now can we go to page uh well back to your sec your supplemental sorry back to your witness statement at

02:50:31 sorry back to your witness statement at page 12 cta six zeros 12 and look at the bottom of page nine

02:50:38 uh and look at paragraph 43 there you say notwithstanding the above it is proper for me to note that there was a very close collaboration between stephen malcolm and myself we each checked each other's

02:50:50 and myself we each checked each other's drafts suggesting amendments as appropriate see that yes sir uh and then steve carried out some editing of the drafts prepared by malcolm and myself but i would also recall that ultimately i carried out

02:51:02 recall that ultimately i carried out final edits to consider all technical issues and ensure consistency of language say precluding any obvious joins between sections drafted by different consultants yes sir moreover as managing director of

02:51:13 yes sir moreover as managing director of the practice and the principal point of liaison for the project board and reference board which i refer later i had overall editorial control of the csta work delivered to lgid that was discussed later in this statement not

02:51:24 discussed later in this statement not total control of the technical content of the final publication yes sir do you stand by that statement today yes sir and i think that reflects what the linkedin profile yes was saying it it yes and in light of the

02:51:36 was saying it it yes and in light of the linkedin profile and your statement that i just read to you at paragraph 43 of your witness statement can you just explain why it is a misrepresentation to describe you as an author if not the principal author of the lga guide

02:51:48 principal author of the lga guide um yes sir certainly um the the guide

02:51:53 guide uh was drafted by a team of three uh

02:51:58 uh stephen dawes malcolm and myself because of workload uh

02:52:04 uh steve

02:52:05 steve dawes took the the lead uh in

02:52:09 uh in uh organizing the drafting and i told him just to treat me as an author and use me as he thought fit to draft those parts of the guide that he wished me to

02:52:21 parts of the guide that he wished me to draft

02:52:22 draft so to begin with i i was an author if you like of as i said about 25 of the document and that would include the appendices

02:52:33 the appendices as opposed to the the main sections i think i i quoted sir a different figure for the percentage of the the main text that i drafted but then ultimately

02:52:44 but then ultimately i did an editorial job and ultimately as the managing director of the practice i'm responsible for everything that goes out sir and and so i i did a final check through

02:52:55 and and so i i did a final check through there was a an independent peer review by another member of the practice who wasn't involved that's just part of our our quality assurance process but

02:53:05 but ultimately i would take uh responsibility for what went out it doesn't mean i i i should properly be characterized as as the author uh and in addition to that um we were only acting

02:53:17 addition to that um we were only acting on behalf of uh a group to whom we were responsible so

02:53:22 so although we we drafted it uh the final responsibility for the content rested with lgid after a very major consultation exercise

02:53:33 consultation exercise is there any part of the lga guide that from which you would distance yourself no there's not sir there isn't uh now can we turn to uh a new a new topic mr chairman um it's five to one

02:53:46 topic mr chairman um it's five to one this new topic i will certainly not finish by by one o'clock um well no wouldn't it make better sense to stop

02:53:55 to stop right well mr tom we've only just got you started i'm happy to make a start on the topic i'm happy to make a start at the top

02:54:02 the top otherwise we shall we should be sitting here for a long time so i think actually since we would break for lunch normally at one o'clock i think we'll take advantage of uh the transition from topic to topic and break at that point

02:54:15 topic to topic and break at that point and um we'll come back at two o'clock when we'll get a clean start and no doubt make more progress very good sir thank you yes and i have to ask you as i shall i'll remind you on other occasions when

02:54:26 i'll remind you on other occasions when you leave the room now having made the affirmation it's important that you don't talk to anyone about your evidence of course sir thank you thank you very much right well you go with the usher we'll see you again at two o'clock thank

02:54:38 we'll see you again at two o'clock thank you

02:54:48 thank you mr minute two o'clock please

02:55:06 you