Robin Kalan Evidence - Thursday 15th July 2021 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:31 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:34 hearing today we're going to hear further evidence from people involved with the lifts at grenfell tower yes respect can we call mr jenkner please thank you

00:00:51 thank you good morning mr jacob good morning i understand you're going to make the affirmation and the words are there on the screen for you to read out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly

00:01:03 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare

00:01:03 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much we'd like to sit down please make yourself comfortable

00:01:17 all right yes thank you good thank you yes bye when you're ready can you please give the inquiry your full name warren jenkner thank you very much for coming to give evidence today

00:01:28 to give evidence today and to assist the inquiry with its investigations i will be asking you questions today if you have difficulty understanding anything i am asking you please ask me to repeat the question or i will put it in another way

00:01:41 i will put it in another way if you feel you need a break at any point just let us know and finally please can you keep your voice up so the transcribers can hear you

00:01:48 you i should try you have made two witness statements for the inquiry they are in a folder on your desk and will also appear on the screen i'll take it sorry have you got the

00:01:59 i'll take it sorry have you got the folder you may not have one no no we we use the screen most of the time so we'll we'll do that thank you i'll take you to the first one it's um at apx408774

00:02:13 is that your statement it is and can we go to the last page please page 19 and we can see there the date of the 29th of october 2019 and is that your signature it is and we

00:02:26 and is that your signature it is and we don't need to go to it but you've also provided a number of exhibits one to 14 and for the transcript there is an index of those at seven apx408775 five

00:02:37 at seven apx408775 five your second statement if we can go to that at apx408783 and again is that your second statement it is and if we can go to the last page

00:02:48 it is and if we can go to the last page five and we can see there that it's dated the 10th of december 2020 and is that your signature it is and have you read your statements recently i have and can you confirm that the

00:02:59 i have and can you confirm that the contents of both are true they are and have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today

00:03:04 today no thank you i'd like to now now ask you a few questions about your employment background um now this is primarily set out in paragraphs 3 to 14

00:03:15 paragraphs 3 to 14 of your first witness statement which we don't need to go to but for the transcript it's at apx40874 forward slash one through to page three

00:03:26 forward slash one through to page three um now in summary you enrolled at woolwich college in 1982 on a four-year apprenticeship for lift engineering that's right and you joined apex the family business at the same time

00:03:37 family business at the same time it is yeah and you then finished your apprenticeship in 1985 and started as a repair and construction fitter that's right and you then worked your way up through various positions to become managing director in 1996.

00:03:49 become managing director in 1996. that's right yes uh and you also sit on the board for the lift and escalator industry association which is known as leah i do and is it right that you were president in 2008 to nine and also in

00:04:01 president in 2008 to nine and also in 2017.

00:04:02 2017. that's right and in terms of your qualifications you've completed the j5 and j26 modules and these are lift engineer qualifications that's right yes and you've also done

00:04:15 that's right yes and you've also done distance learning courses from the national

00:04:17 national association of lift makers l1 l2 l3 and l4 is that correct no i haven't done distance learning okay um have you done any courses from the national association of lift makers

00:04:30 national association of lift makers um and moving on to your relevant training

00:04:34 training in your role as managing director would you be expected to have knowledge of the principles and requirements of the relevant british and european standards which relate to lifts i have the knowledge yes and in relation

00:04:47 i have the knowledge yes and in relation to firefighting lifts did you undergo any training on the design requirements of a firefighting lift no formal training although i sat in seminars

00:04:56 seminars regarding it and can you just give a bit more detail about the seminars that you attended in relation to firefighting lifts

00:05:03 lifts the seminars at the time were given by lia

00:05:06 lia our trade association so there would be a one-day seminar covering lots of topics

00:05:12 topics so they'd cover lots of different topics and one of those would be firefighting english it would yes and included in that training or any other training did you undergo any training on the

00:05:23 did you undergo any training on the types of buildings in which a firefighting lift would be required yes we covered that and uh did that training include training on the purposes

00:05:33 purposes and functions of a firefighting lift yes and is it right that through your position on leah you're able to keep abreast of changes in the lift industry as well

00:05:42 as well yes yes now i'd like to move on to a couple of questions about apex the company

00:05:47 company uh is it correct that it was set up in 1970 that's right and can you explain briefly what apex does exactly we manufacture install maintain lifts

00:05:58 we manufacture install maintain lifts and escalators and how do you ensure staff are keeping up to date with the latest developments in lifts including british standards we supply the standards

00:06:09 standards we supply the standards and they go to seminars again given by leah

00:06:13 leah and that's the only place that we know where the training can be given moving on now to your previous high-rise experience um we don't need to go to it but at

00:06:25 um we don't need to go to it but at paragraphs 10 to 12 of your first statement that's at apx87743 it's clear that apex has undertaken a wide range of work is that correct that's right and prior to the grenfell

00:06:38 that's right and prior to the grenfell tower project what experience did you have of lift projects in high-rise residential buildings

00:06:44 buildings we installed this in southwark lambert most london boroughs and did any of those projects involved an upgrade of a lift to the firefighting lift standards no

00:06:56 to the firefighting lift standards no never

00:06:58 never um now in your first witness statement if we can go to it it's apx40874 forward slash 13. and it's the answer to

00:07:09 forward slash 13. and it's the answer to question

00:07:09 question 10 d so it's the towards the bottom and it's the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph and it says i cannot recall any instance where a request has been made

00:07:21 where a request has been made or specification provided which requires the replacement of existing lifts and singlifs

00:07:26 singlifs in existing local authority buildings and my question is have you action is have you ever done a project in any type of building where there has been the replacement of an existing lift with a firefighting lift

00:07:38 with a firefighting lift no not changing a fireman's lift to a firefighting lift no although we've installed firefighting lifts and and is that an existing building

00:07:48 building not changing the lift if it was already a firefighting lift then we put a firefighting lift back so just to be clear that would be a building that already had a firefighting lift and you would do a like-for-like

00:07:59 lift and you would do a like-for-like replacement and keep it as a firefighting lift with new parts

00:08:03 new parts that's correct mr gender i get the impression from what you said here that local authorities don't as a rule want to upgrade lifts from

00:08:14 as a rule want to upgrade lifts from fireman's lift to fire fighting lifts is that the case that's correct and is there a particular reason for that i don't think most buildings would accommodate a full

00:08:26 accommodate a full firefighting lift so it would be too difficult because the electrical mains and serving all the floors lots of changes would

00:08:37 all the floors lots of changes would need to

00:08:38 need to be invoked into that list yeah thank you if i can now move on to your previous relationship um with rb casey the tmo and butler and young

00:08:50 young prior to the grenfell tower project had you carried out any previous projects for the royal borough of kensington and chelsea

00:08:55 chelsea for kensington chelsea yes um and were any of those projects in high-rise residential buildings no i don't believe so um and can i take

00:09:06 no i don't believe so um and can i take it from your previous answer that none of those included the upgrading of existing lifts to the firefighting lift standard

00:09:11 standard no none of them would uh and had you worked with the tmo prior to the grenfell tower project i don't believe so um and through your work on the grenfell tower project

00:09:22 tower project and in your experience did the staff at the tmo have professional lifts knowledge or not

00:09:29 um i only knew one of the staff robin kalan and i knew robin collum prior to this job he's been a lift engineer for many years

00:09:41 he's been a lift engineer for many years so i'd expect him to have knowledge and from your experience with robin kaland was your experience that he did have knowledge of the relevant lift standards i

00:09:53 standards i i don't know i never asked and finally had you worked with butler and young prior to the grenfell tower project

00:10:00 project yes and were any of those projects in high-rise residential buildings um yes possibly the barbican and again can i take it from your previous answer that it didn't include

00:10:12 previous answer that it didn't include the upgrade of existing lifts to the firefighting lift on lift standards i'd now like to move on to a different topic um and that's uh the relevant standards relating to

00:10:23 standards relating to firefighting lifts um now if we can go to your

00:10:26 to your second statement um and that's at eight seven apx4087 three forward slash three

00:10:35 three and i'd like to look at a question the answer to question five at the bottom of the page um and you state um in that answer that the lifts at grenfell tower were not new lists that

00:10:47 grenfell tower were not new lists that they were

00:10:47 they were modernized lift lifts and i'd just like to ask you to explain the basis of your view that they were modernized lifts and not new lifts it would have been industry practice at

00:10:58 it would have been industry practice at that time that the lifts would be modernized and we kept two items of the existing lift and can which were the two items that you kept

00:11:09 the two items that you kept it was the bet boxes and the guides and so is it a fair summary of your view that because you kept those two items therefore they were modernized lifts yes absolutely you state um

00:11:23 yes absolutely you state um also on page three um it's an answer to question four so it's just up the page a little bit um you note there in answer in the second paragraph of your answer that en 81

00:11:35 that en 81 won applied to the list um is that a reference to en 81 1 1998 it is and is it correct that en 81 1

00:11:46 and is it correct that en 81 1 1998 applies to new lifts only it does that's reference to the products installed on the lift so although the lift was installed to 5655

00:11:59 lift was installed to 5655 the products on that lift were ce marked and conformed to en 81.1 so just to clarify um and tell me if this

00:12:10 just to clarify um and tell me if this is an incorrect summary of your answer uh you agree that en 81 1 1998 as a standard applies to new lifts but what you're saying is that there were individual parts that were installed

00:12:21 individual parts that were installed in the lift which complied with that standard because they were new parts and that's

00:12:25 that's what the reference there means yes it was an upgrade to 5655

00:12:31 i'd now like to ask you um to consider the view of the inquiries expert it's mr halkins and it's set out at paragraph 244 of his report and that's at rho seven zeros

00:12:44 and that's at rho seven zeros forward slash one one seven if we can go to that

00:12:58 and at paragraph 244 mr halkin states that in his view the lifts installed as part of project one were new lifts and that's because of the extent of replacement of parts he says of

00:13:09 replacement of parts he says of particular importance is the fact that one set of car guide rails were relocated

00:13:13 relocated one set of car guide rail fixings were replaced and the counterweight frame and supporting brackets and associated fixings were new and can i just ask if you agree with mr halkin's view and if not can you

00:13:24 mr halkin's view and if not can you explain why i don't agree it was a new lift i agree with what he's saying that the these parts were replaced or moved

00:13:35 these parts were replaced or moved but just to be clear um your view is that because some of the parts were retained on that basis it wasn't a new lift is that correct that's correct i'd now like to move on just to briefly discuss the requirements

00:13:47 just to briefly discuss the requirements of a firefighting lift in terms of what exactly was i'm sorry but before we i'm sorry before we move on to the next topic um i generally you've had a chance to read the whole of paragraph

00:13:59 read the whole of paragraph 244

00:14:03 perhaps you should have a chance to do that

00:14:14 um yes i think what mr howkins is saying is the basis for his view is that uh there are references in bs 5655 in

00:14:27 in bs 5655 in part 11 which treat a new lift as being installed where only the guide rails are retained

00:14:38 retained yes and um you would not agree with that is that right i wouldn't agree with it at the time that we

00:14:46 that we were installing the lift because it slightly changed in 2005. [Music]

00:14:57 [Music] the industry standard was a new lifting a new building or a new lift and a new building was a new lift yeah and if you kept the guides then it was accepted that it was an existing

00:15:09 it was accepted that it was an existing lift

00:15:10 lift right and that's the industry standard that that was the prevailing view within the industry it was yes

00:15:16 was yes all right thank you thank you very much yes i'm sorry to interrupt you for spying

00:15:19 spying so uh mr jenkins if i can just uh further clarify that is it your evidence that bs 565511 2005 in saying that retaining the guide rails

00:15:30 in saying that retaining the guide rails but replacing all the other parts in saying that that was a new lift is your evidence that that was a change in the industry standards from what was previously the case it was yes yeah

00:15:41 it was yes yeah and so just to be clear is it your evidence that had for example the project

00:15:45 project started in 2005 or 2006 that they would have been new lifts because only the guide rails were retained i don't think they would have been

00:15:55 been the industry didn't do that so just keeping the guides until now is still considered a refurbishment

00:16:06 refurbishment and can i just ask how you reconcile that with the definition of bs 565511 2005.

00:16:11 2005. we can go to it if that would help i can't i can't

00:16:18 if we can then move to the requirements of a firefighting lift if we can go to your first statement at

00:16:26 apx40874 forward slash 12 and look at the bottom half of that page

00:16:33 and there you have listed um on the bottom half of that page moving on to the next page a number of requirements of a firefighting list i won't uh go through

00:16:44 firefighting list i won't uh go through all of them um but would you agree that those requirements come from the following standards bs55085 1991 bsen

00:16:56 1991 bsen 8172 2003 and bs55085 2004 i would yes

00:17:08 and would you accept that these standards require a new building over 18 meters to have a firefighting lift installation i would and would you agree that the reasons for installing a firefighting

00:17:20 reasons for installing a firefighting lift

00:17:20 lift in a new building would equally apply to an existing building no and can you can you explain the basis of that view um an existing building

00:17:33 um an existing building wasn't designed to take a firefighting lift so there's lots of differences between the new building and an existing building because it's a whole part of the standard so the building is covered

00:17:46 standard so the building is covered with stairwells and ventilation um and auxiliary supplies if i can put to just uh for one moment just one side the practicalities of installing a

00:17:58 the practicalities of installing a firefighting lift in an existing building so if we can put that to one side for a moment but in terms of the reasons why a firefighting lift is important in a building over 18 meters that's new would you agree that those reasons would

00:18:09 would you agree that those reasons would also apply to a building over 18 meters that is existing yes yeah so even though the standards don't directly say whether lifts installed in existing tool

00:18:21 whether lifts installed in existing tool buildings should be upgraded to the standard of a firefighting lift there would have been good safety related reasons to upgrade the lifts to the full firefighting standard insofar as it was reasonably practicable

00:18:33 insofar as it was reasonably practicable only if it was the whole of the standard so that's outside of our remit really so you're talking about ventilation on the landings new mains new substations so that would be out of

00:18:47 new substations so that would be out of our design capabilities and with these lists they didn't serve every floor so you couldn't do it at grenfell and just to be clear when you say outside of your remix

00:18:58 your remix is that do you mean that there were other aspects of bs55085 which weren't to do with lifts which you say had to be present for there to be a full firefighting lift upgrade

00:19:09 firefighting lift upgrade yes these standards say building design standard not necessarily a lift standard and finally would you accept that if the lifts had been new lifts as opposed to modernized lifts

00:19:20 modernized lifts in an existing building should they have been firefighting lifts so could you repeat that question um so sticking with the situation in which you have an existing building

00:19:32 have an existing building that you have new lifts which are installed would you accept that in that situation they should have been firefighting lifts no and can you just explain the reason for that

00:19:42 for that um because the standard was for new buildings

00:19:51 it would be prudent to look at it but the standard was actually for new buildings

00:19:56 buildings and when you say it would be prudent to look at it can you just elaborate on that please i think the designers should take it into consideration

00:20:07 into consideration when installing a new lift whether it's at all possible to have a full firefighting lift so it's something that the designers would consider in your view and it depends on whether it's

00:20:18 and it depends on whether it's reasonably practicable or not it is and grenfell it wasn't reasonably practical

00:20:24 practical and on what basis do you say it wasn't reasonably practicable at grenfell um the biggest reason is the lift didn't serve every floor and in in on the basis of your

00:20:37 and in in on the basis of your understanding of the standards was it necessary for the lift to serve every every floor regardless of whether it was residential or not so should the lift only only serve residential floors or did it have to serve every floor

00:20:48 serve every floor it says it shall serve every floor um i don't know what what they mean by that really but it shall serve every floor and there's um

00:20:59 floor and there's um the reason for that is that the lift became stuck in the shaft the distance between the floors because it didn't serve every floor was be too far to be able to rescue anyone

00:21:10 be too far to be able to rescue anyone from the lift you wouldn't be able to get anyone out of the lift because the travels too far

00:21:26 now just moving on to uh the question uh to another aspect of mr halkin's report if we can go to rho seven zeros three

00:21:39 rho seven zeros three forward slash one three six

00:21:43 and it's paragraphs uh 303 to 304 um and the question uh for you mr jenkner is do you agree with mr hawkins that it would have been

00:21:54 mr hawkins that it would have been reasonably practicable to install at least some of the features of a firefighting lift so in that particular paragraph mr halkins refers to a trap door but there may have been other features of a firefighting lift

00:22:06 other features of a firefighting lift that could have been installed no no it must be a whole firefighting lift it can't be part of a firefighting lift

00:22:16 lift um so i think the question you're being asked to consider mr jenkner is would it have been possible as a matter of

00:22:27 of uh engineering if you like to include a trapdoor in the roof of the new lift cars yes it's possible

00:22:38 new lift cars yes it's possible yeah yes i think that's really all being outside okay i understand your i think your position is you either do the whole job or you don't do any of it that's right and particularly with the trap door you know you wouldn't put that

00:22:49 trap door you know you wouldn't put that in the local authority building no because the whole reason for having vandal resistant lifts is to stop people getting

00:22:56 getting on top of the lift yes but it could have been done

00:22:59 been done though no one would have wanted to do it no yes i see thank you

00:23:06 and just to confirm um you would therefore disagree with the view of mr hawkins which is set out at uh page 110 of his report um if we can just go to that it's

00:23:18 um if we can just go to that it's paragraph 213-215

00:23:24 and in that part of his report and i'll summarize

00:23:28 summarize he sets out the view that although there was no standard which clearly answered the question whether existing fireman's lifts

00:23:34 lifts in tall buildings should be modernized to the full firefighting standard in the context of a large project which provided the opportunity to upgrade the lifts to the firefighting standard it would have been good

00:23:45 standard it would have been good industry practice to have considered upgrading at least some of the firefighting features of the lifts um so just to confirm would you disagree with that view and can you just

00:23:54 just clarify as to why i disagree with that um because it gives the fire brigade or anyone rescuing anyone a full sense of security

00:24:04 security if there was a trap door if there was drainage

00:24:08 drainage they would think it was a full fire fighting lift so you'd agree that the proper approach is either

00:24:14 is either a full fireman's lift as to the previous standard or a full fire fighting lift and there's no uh it's either as an all or nothing approach as it were that's right it's an industry recognized

00:24:26 that's right it's an industry recognized approach

00:24:30 and if we can now move on to a different topic which is um your role in the project at grenfell tower

00:24:37 tower if we can go to apx405619 and uh this is exhibit number two to

00:24:49 and uh this is exhibit number two to your statement and it's headed contract uh documentation um can you just explain um who drafted this document and exactly who the contract was between uh in

00:25:01 who the contract was between uh in relation to the project the i believe butler and young drafted the contract only because it says so and it's between

00:25:12 only because it says so and it's between the royal barrow kings and chelsea tennis tenant management organization and apex so just to be clear the contract was between yourselves and uh rbkc it was did you have a contract

00:25:25 uh rbkc it was did you have a contract with butler and young as well or not no no no and was that ordinary practice in the industry at the time yes yes and can you just briefly explain the division

00:25:36 the division of roles and responsibilities between butler and young and apex on this project

00:25:43 project butler and young were the specifiers of the lift so designers and would manage the site and apex were the installation company

00:25:55 now just moving on to discuss um the specification uh in your first statement we don't need to go to it uh but it's at apx four zeros eight seven seven four forward slash five uh you note that

00:26:08 four forward slash five uh you note that the specification was extremely detailed which was

00:26:11 which was usual for butler and young is that correct and at the time did you review the specification personally no and can you just explain what why you wouldn't have reviewed the

00:26:22 what why you wouldn't have reviewed the specification personally we employ a sales team and a construction director i wouldn't review

00:26:35 and in your second statement if we can go to that at apx408783 forward slash two and it's the third paragraph

00:26:48 third paragraph and that states that once awarded the contract

00:26:51 contract site meetings would be held prior to the project starting and any issues could have been raised with butler and young at this time but given the passage of time and lack of documentation you can't assist in advising whether any concerns were

00:27:03 advising whether any concerns were raised

00:27:04 raised and if they were the nature of your of those concerns um and if we can go to the next page as well and at the first paragraph um

00:27:16 as well and at the first paragraph um and you say again that if apex had concerns they could have been raised with butler and young and as a result any concerns could have been aired with all those attending the pre-start

00:27:26 pre-start meetings um and so my question really is if apex had taken the view that firefighting lifts were required would it have been possible for them to have raised the issue with butler and

00:27:37 have raised the issue with butler and young

00:27:38 young during the project yes yes and in general if apex had had any safety concerns of any kind it would have been possible for them to have

00:27:49 have been possible for them to have raised that issue with butler and young it would have been yes and in your experience have you or other apex colleagues ever had cause to do that in a project

00:28:02 to do that in a project when you say safety you're saying the design

00:28:05 design as a safety no

00:28:11 the inquiry had evidence from ian morehouse

00:28:14 morehouse to the effect that the tmo provided a specific instruction to butler and young not to consider the feasibility of installing firefighting lifts at grenfell tower were you aware of this instruction from

00:28:25 were you aware of this instruction from the tmo to butler and young no so in in light of the fact that you hadn't been told about this instruction uh do you agree or disagree that apex as

00:28:36 uh do you agree or disagree that apex as the lift contractor ought to have at least

00:28:38 least raised the issue of whether the lifts should have been firefighting lifts or not or at least have some of the features of firefighting lift i don't believe you can put a lift in with some of the features

00:28:50 with some of the features and we wouldn't erase or couldn't raise due to the specification that the lift required to be a firefighting lift and when you say couldn't raise do you

00:29:01 and when you say couldn't raise do you mean that the that it was the wrong time of the project to raise it or that the specification had already been done and therefore it was too late um both it's the wrong time but

00:29:12 um both it's the wrong time but we wouldn't consider the lift needed to be firefighting so we wouldn't raise it though

00:29:17 though the specification was already written and we were working to that specification it's pre-start we've already signed a contract

00:29:29 if we can then move to um project one itself and and how the project went uh can you describe what if any involvement you had in the remainder of project one no just an overview if there was

00:29:42 no just an overview if there was problems they would come to me and were there any problems during the course of project one i think we were late in completing the works

00:29:53 works is it possible can you just elaborate um a bit on on what why you were late in finishing the works

00:30:00 works um

00:30:03 i believe it was um we hadn't allowed enough time for scaffolding and such like

00:30:09 like and we were working through the butler and young's program that wasn't our program so i believe the program was too short

00:30:21 thank you mr jenkler um i've come to the end of my prepared questions so you'd like a bit of time just to yes yes well mr gentler when we when council

00:30:33 yes well mr gentler when we when council gets the end of her prepared questions we always have a short break partly to enable her to check she hasn't overlooked anything and partly to enable those who are following the proceedings but not in the room

00:30:45 but not in the room to suggest other questions that perhaps we ought to ask you so we're gonna have a break now we'll

00:30:52 we'll um we'll come back at quarter to eleven and at that point we'll see whether there are any more questions we need to put to you okay well thank you i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your

00:31:03 please not to talk to anyone about your evidence

00:31:04 evidence during the break okay and then if you go with the usher she'll look after you we'll see you in a few minutes thank you thank you very much

00:31:20 good thank you very much

00:44:59 i think we have mr juncker back in please if he's there

00:45:13 right mr jungkook well we'll see if there's any more questions for you okay no further questions mr chairman right thank you very much well um mr jinkner i think at this stage

00:45:24 well um mr jinkner i think at this stage it's right that i should thank you very much for coming here to give your evidence we haven't detained you very long for which no doubt you're profoundly grateful but it has been very helpful to us to

00:45:35 but it has been very helpful to us to hear what you have to tell us and very useful so thank you very much indeed and uh you are now free to go thank you very much

00:45:56 well thank you very much inspire now we do have another witness but we'll have to have a short break shall we so that the arrangements are made for changeover yes good all right well then i think that what we'll say is we'll

00:46:08 i think that what we'll say is we'll we'll

00:46:08 we'll we'll take a break and you can ask the usher to come and get us when you're ready for the next witness all right thank you very much

00:57:34 yes mr kenya now we have another witness we do

00:57:37 we do so mayor called robin kalan yes before you do can i just say we've the morning's been a bit fragmented for perfectly understandable reasons i don't think we want to have another break at quarter past 11 do we we don't

00:57:49 break at quarter past 11 do we we don't um but we i don't think mr kalhan wants to go for

00:57:54 to go for two hours unbroken so perhaps we could look for a suitable time perhaps nearer 12 o'clock and depending on i had noon in mind sir sounds very central yes all right thank you very

00:58:05 central yes all right thank you very much

00:58:06 much yes now you're going to call robin kalan yes thank you very much

00:58:17 good thank you good morning mister come on good morning come on yes yes silent mage good thank you very much now i understand you're going to make the oath so there should be a testament

00:58:29 the oath so there should be a testament on the desk there could you take it in the right hand and repeat the words on the screen please i swear by almighty god that the evidence i should give should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth

00:58:40 nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make yourself thank you come forward

00:58:46 [Music] yes mr cannot uh can you when you're ready thanks sir um would you please confirm your name for the record robin carl mr clan thank you very much for attending today

00:58:57 for attending today um before we start uh your evidence today i should make clear three points first of all if at any stage you require a break please say so that's not a problem secondly if any stage my questions are

00:59:09 secondly if any stage my questions are unclear or too long please say so and i'll try and rectify matters thirdly if you could keep your voice up whilst giving evidence that allows the shorthand writer to catch everything and to catch everything you say

00:59:20 and to catch everything you say accurately and also one final word of advice is

00:59:23 advice is don't nod uh as a subject just say yes okay as the case may be well you cannot if you want to but you have to say yes as well yes with the nod thank you very much

00:59:36 yes with the nod thank you very much now mr klein you provided two statements to this inquiry uh the first one can be found at

00:59:44 tm0086023 and it's dated the 7th of january 2020 is that yours yes second statement is dated the 8th of october 2020 and can be found at tm00879767

01:00:00 and can be found at tm00879767 is that your second statement yes have you read those statements recently i have

01:00:04 have and all that content's true they are thank you now if we could first turn to uh background matters uh relating to your employment now in summary is it right that you

01:00:15 now in summary is it right that you began training as a left engineer for lift express in 1969 express lifts yes and after leaving express lifts you joined the london borough of wandsworth as a lift inspector for three years yes and you then joined rbkc in or about

01:00:29 yes and you then joined rbkc in or about 1990 as a lift engineer yes uh when did your employment uh transfer to the tma

01:00:37 i can't remember the actual date it wasn't the ceremony of any sort it just happened

01:00:42 happened but during your time there you were promoted to senior left lift engineer is that right at the end i gained the title but just gained the title it wasn't didn't make any difference to my job at all thank you and during your time at the

01:00:54 thank you and during your time at the tmo will you generally line managed by david steppel all the time yes and after he left you were line managed by keith field the senior electrical engineer followed by ricky sams is that

01:01:05 engineer followed by ricky sams is that right

01:01:05 right yes and is it right that you left the tmo

01:01:08 tmo in about august 2013.

01:01:12 i left when i was 65 december 2012 december 12th thank you now if we could go um to your job description which can be found at

01:01:23 description which can be found at [Music]

01:01:25 [Music] tm0086024

01:01:29 now you say in your statement your first statement paragraph 10 that this job description was provided from later in your employment at the tmo is that right yes

01:01:40 that right yes and just to confirm an answer you gave earlier on there was no substantive difference between what your job entailed before this job description was provided and after that's correct

01:01:52 and after that's correct now if we could go to tm0086026

01:01:59 as you can see this is a handwritten document showing the division of responsibilities between yourself which i think is summarized from page three onwards

01:02:11 as lift engineer and mr steppel whose role can be seen from page one and two so if we go back first of all is that a correct summary

01:02:22 correct summary they are my handwritten summaries and they are yes and why did you uh write down those hand i must have been asked at some point to give

01:02:34 to give give that summary i don't know we were going through lots of different consultants were coming along to the tmo and uh looking at our job descriptions and so on what we actually did

01:02:46 and so on what we actually did with regard to pruning back on staff actually

01:02:50 actually which is why i was made redundant i believe at the end of the process and can you remember the date of this document no idea is it would it provide an accurate summary of your

01:03:01 accurate summary of your responsibilities and roles in 2003 2004 for example

01:03:17 for example broadly yes

01:03:20 i wouldn't be developing policies and procedures i do do that along with dave steppel my line manager now can i turn to a separate but related topic of training

01:03:31 topic of training and knowledge of requisite standards um what qualifications do you have in relation to lift engineering none focusing on your time at rbkc tmo how often would you attend training or

01:03:43 how often would you attend training or education courses that were concerned with

01:03:46 with the relevant standards that applied to lifts none whatsoever

01:03:51 did you receive any training outside work on the requirements of british or european standards no now if we can go to tmo double zero eight double six

01:04:03 to tmo double zero eight double six zero two four forward slash three

01:04:09 and again this is your job description the typed

01:04:13 the typed version of it and if we look at the third entry from the bottom of the page it says this generally keep abreast of all developments in lift design and operation

01:04:21 operation british standard code of practice legislation relating to lifts and hoists now if you were given no training uh by your employers how did you generally keep abreast of those

01:04:32 generally keep abreast of those developments we received notifications from the lift contractors independent lift services and noted slips

01:04:40 slips and uh we had a magazine a monthly magazine

01:04:44 magazine called elevation which kept us up to scratch with uh different occurrences that were going on with the lift industry

01:04:53 industry we had a very substantial library of british standards that we could refer to at any time so is it fair to say that for example whilst you may have received no training on the principles and requirements of bs5508

01:05:05 requirements of bs5508 591 you nonetheless familiar with its requirements no i wouldn't be no were you aware of the existence of that standard no i wasn't

01:05:19 would you have had documents such as that in your library of documents that related to lifts the library was pretty substantial it was kept up to date i can remember myself going to

01:05:33 the company that issued the documents at the end of chizik high road to go along and get different

01:05:42 bridge standards on more than one occasion we had an account with them the bsi

01:05:47 bsi in chisikai road yes and so you would have on occasion reason to consult the substance of british standards but my job purely was service and maintenance and i was

01:05:58 maintenance and i was quite well up on that bs five six five five through my time in the lift industry for 25 years yes

01:06:05 yes so again just going back um you said there that i was quite well up on bs 565. i asked you earlier whether you were nonetheless familiar whether its requirements

01:06:18 requirements what is the correct position yes so i was familiar with its requirements now um were you aware of next bs en 8172 from 2003

01:06:29 en 8172 from 2003 which is entitled safety rules for the construction installation of lifts particular applications for passenger and goods passenger lifts firefighter lifts

01:06:37 lifts i've heard of it and it was there for me to look up if i needed but

01:06:44 i didn't particularly have good knowledge of it no can you tell me this um you obviously had a pretty large library of things you could go and consult

01:06:52 consult but what would lead you to go and consult the library if i was asked a specific question or if it came up at a meeting that sort of thing but really i didn't

01:07:04 that sort of thing but really i didn't have to go to it that often to be honest with you

01:07:07 with you thank you very much were you aware of the

01:07:11 the change um to bs58 591 that was brought in in november 2004. no did you have any reason to consult

01:07:22 no did you have any reason to consult the substance of the revised no requirements no

01:07:27 is it fair to say therefore that you weren't familiar with the substance of those revisions it's sure to say that yes um are you aware of a document called approved document b no have you ever heard anyone in the

01:07:39 no have you ever heard anyone in the lifts context that you had to deal with during your time at the tmo refer to approved document b no

01:07:49 just to clarify matters on one particular detail we'll come on to later on

01:07:54 on in relation to firefighting lifts uh were you aware of what was required in order to properly classify a lift as a firefighting lift at the time i have very little knowledge

01:08:05 at the time i have very little knowledge of it so no is the answer subsequently i've gained more information especially in the last two weeks would you have deferred to others including david stepalis the precise requirements

01:08:17 david stepalis the precise requirements of the relevant standards would i have to refer to would you defer to him yes david steppel handled all the lift refurbishments

01:08:28 handled all the lift refurbishments he was the next installation engineer i was a service and maintenance engineer now can i turn to a separate topic which is your experience of high-rise residential buildings and lifts serving such buildings

01:08:39 such buildings and before the grenfell tower project in 2003

01:08:42 2003 what experience did you have of lift projects in high-rise residential buildings

01:08:47 buildings we had several lifts in fact maybe 20 or 30 lifts refurbished throughout the borough in the time i was there

01:08:58 there the world's end of state chelsea they were high rise silty store estate they were high rise quite a lot of high-rise refurbishments did any of those projects involve

01:09:09 those projects involve upgrading lifts in an existing building to fire fighting lifts no none of them none of them can you help us out of the tmo stock how

01:09:20 can you help us out of the tmo stock how many high-rise residential buildings were fitted with firefighting lifts in 2003 for none when you left in 2012 was the position the same yes

01:09:34 was the position the same yes now before this project had you worked with butler and young before

01:09:43 not off the top of my head as i say i i was purely there for the maintenance and

01:09:49 and um servicing so butler and young were the consultants used in refurbishments now had you worked with apex mindful of the answer you've just given had you worked with apex before

01:10:00 worked with apex before you started work on the grenfell project for once

01:10:03 for once at ones of council yes and did any of those projects involve high-rise buildings

01:10:08 buildings no oh yes sorry i thought you were sorry i just just won was it there would have been more high-rise buildings i thought you were asking the question about

01:10:20 question about firefighting sorry i jumped the gun didn't listen um can we turn on to firefighting lift standards and if we could just see what the standards required and see how far we go now you indicated in your first

01:10:33 we go now you indicated in your first witness statement that we don't need to go to it but it's a paragraph four and the reference is tmo

01:10:39 tmo double zero eight double six zero two three forward slash one that it's been some seven years since you had anything to do with lifts or lift regulations now can i assume that you haven't

01:10:51 assume that you haven't had any uh need to consult any lift standards since you retired that's correct now mindful of that can we just go to some documents and see

01:11:02 documents and see what your knowledge was it may be that you haven't seen the documents before but once you understand your knowledge of the underlying requirements could we go to approve document b the 2000 version which can be found at bre quadruple zero

01:11:15 which can be found at bre quadruple zero five

01:11:16 five three nine one forward slash double one zero

01:11:23 and we see there on the right hand side towards the bottom section 18.11 and i'll just let you briefly read that mr kalan

01:11:36 now that states that firefighting shelf should be designed constructed and installed in accordance with the recommendations of bs55085 1991 and first of all were you familiar

01:11:47 1991 and first of all were you familiar with that statement of principle no

01:11:53 that kind now turned to a separate standard which is bs55085 1991 itself which can be found at bsi quadruple zero one seven two one

01:12:11 now there we go that's the front page now this is the version published in august

01:12:16 august 1991 it's the one you said you had some i put it

01:12:19 i put it familiarity and working knowledge of if we can go to page 10 within this document said um five six five five five eight five five apologize but first of all you familiar with this

01:12:30 but first of all you familiar with this standard no no no can we go to page ten mindful of that and

01:12:35 and in particular part 3.6 which is at the bottom

01:12:39 bottom right hand corner and it says that the criteria for the provision the number of firefighting shafts and many building types

01:12:46 types are given either in building regulations or in the relevant part of bs double five double eight however where no such guidance is available the provision and number of firefighting shafts should be based on the following

01:12:59 shafts should be based on the following one sorry a buildings or parts of buildings where one the height of the surface of the floor of the topmost story excluding any story consisting exclusively of plant rooms exceeds 15

01:13:10 exclusively of plant rooms exceeds 15 meters were you aware of that provision at the time though looking at it would you agree with me that at least according to this

01:13:22 that at least according to this if a new building is built the advice is that it should have a firefighting shaft which would include a firefighting layer

01:13:30 yes

01:13:35 could we go to next bs en 8172 2003 which concerns safety rules for the construction and installation of lifts particular applications for passenger

01:13:46 particular applications for passenger and goods passenger lifts that can be found at bsi quadruple zero one

01:13:51 one seven two five

01:13:55 now as you can see this was published in let's see from page two so this was published in july 2003 if we can go to page seven within this document

01:14:06 we can see in the top its definition of scope

01:14:10 scope and clause 1.2 sets out those circumstances in which the standard is not applicable and what it says there is that it does not apply to lifts

01:14:21 not apply to lifts at the second dash point lifts installed in existing buildings or to important modifications to existing lifts installed before the publication of this standard but there's a caveat at

01:14:33 of this standard but there's a caveat at the end which says this however this standard may usefully be used as a basis um first of all were you aware of that provision

01:14:42 provision i wasn't there were at the time

01:14:45 and when you say you weren't aware of the time is that during the course of your employment by the tma the document was there i've seen the document the the document before yes i have i couldn't read it out by heart but yes

01:14:57 couldn't read it out by heart but yes i've seen that document before looking at what it says in 1.2 in particular the last sentence would you agree that this standard could provide a basis for the design requirements of a

01:15:08 for the design requirements of a firefighting lift if required to an existing building i wouldn't have any view on that it's not something that i would have dealt with in the past that would be misunderstood now we were discussing this slightly

01:15:22 now we were discussing this slightly earlier on but could we go to bs5508-5 2004 five precautions in the design construction of use of buildings access and facilities for firefighting and that can be found at bsi

01:15:34 and that can be found at bsi quadruple zero one seven two three now this was published and we can see from page two but we need to go to don't need to go to it this was published in november 2004

01:15:46 published in november 2004 by which time the lift project grenfell had started and if we can go to page 18 1-8 in this document

01:15:53 document and the bottom of the page there at clause 7 and you'll see under the heading firefighting facilities there's the sub-heading firefighting shafts and then the sub-sub-heading which is provision of firefighting

01:16:05 which is provision of firefighting shafts and it says this firefighting shafts should be provided in tall buildings buildings with deep basements and buildings with large floor areas and if we can go over the page to table

01:16:16 and if we can go over the page to table four

01:16:18 four and we see the top left-hand row it says there's buildings or parts of buildings where the height of the surface of the floor the topmost story excluding any story consisting entirely of plant rooms

01:16:29 entirely of plant rooms exceeds 18 meters should be provided with fire fighting stare fire fighting lobbies provided with a fire main firefighting lift and installation now looking at what is set

01:16:41 installation now looking at what is set out there in clause 7 and in table 4 would you agree that it's clear at least from this standard that new tall buildings i.e buildings over 18 meters should have a firefighting list new building yes

01:16:56 and that would you accept that the rationale for having firefighting lifts is to facilitate firefighting efforts in the event of a fire

01:17:11 yes and that would be the reason for having

01:17:14 having such lifts and firefighting shafts in new buildings yes and the safety rationale for having firefighting lifts in new buildings at least in principle applies equally to

01:17:25 at least in principle applies equally to existing buildings would you accept that proposition i wouldn't the new buildings would be structurally made for the uh firefighting lifts to be installed within it

01:17:36 installed within it it may not fit into the old buildings for all sorts of reasons and in that regard you'd look at structural constraints yes um and what would structural

01:17:47 yes um and what would structural constraints involve uh evacuation areas uh a reason for the way of the water ingress leaving the lift shaft

01:17:59 ingress leaving the lift shaft the secondary power supply that's about it really now just following on from those answers if we can look at what

01:18:11 if we can look at what features a firefighting lift would have and then

01:18:14 and then um we can discuss in further detail um whether they were considered at grenfell

01:18:21 grenfell now standards require would you agree with me a lift car that has certain dimensions material of limited combustibility and must run its course in one minute

01:18:32 and must run its course in one minute i don't understand the question no you won't see the answer there okay if you just listen to the question in order to be classified as a firefighting lift

01:18:41 lift a lift has to have a number of features do you agree with that yes now if we can start off with the first one which concerns the lift car and would you accept that the lift car has to have certain dimensions material of limited combustibility

01:18:53 of limited combustibility and complete its run its course in under one minute i'm not aware of that are you aware of the requirement for it to have a lift car

01:19:00 car trap door i am aware of that uh water protection are you aware of that right i'm aware of that one and that protect the insulation from water which might enter during firefighting i'm aware of that yes and that you're

01:19:12 i'm aware of that yes and that you're aware of the requirement for it to have a fire control switch an associated system to bring the lift under firefighters control yes are you aware of the requirement for it to have a fire service communication system yes

01:19:24 communication system yes and finally a secondary power supply yes now at paragraph 36 of your first statement

01:19:30 statement and we don't need to go to it but the reference is tmo zero two 008.6023 forward slash four you state that the concept of a firefighting lift did not come into force until 2015.

01:19:43 lift did not come into force until 2015. now do you accept that the conf at least the concept of a firefighting lift was dealt with in standards certainly from at least 1991. when i was asked to make the statement i

01:19:55 when i was asked to make the statement i haven't been to work for nearly nine years

01:19:57 years and instead of just putting putting no to every single thing in the statement i thought i would openly try to help the inquiry and i looked it up on the

01:20:08 the inquiry and i looked it up on the internet and the only time i can see it was 2015 i wasn't aware of any of that and it was a

01:20:16 a an overstatement i didn't know you were going to employ a lift expert or someone uh to come along so i was really trying to help the enquiries we're grateful for that but

01:20:27 enquiries we're grateful for that but the question was would you accept i've taken you to um bs55085

01:20:32 bs55085 1991 you said you had some familiarity with it

01:20:36 with it um that obviously deals with firefighting lifts would you accept at least the concept of a firefighting lift was dealt with in standards from 1991 in retrospect yes thank you now in the

01:20:48 in retrospect yes thank you now in the view of the inquiries expert mr hawkins um he summarized his view at paragraph 248 of his report and if we can go to

01:20:56 can go to rho quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash one one eight

01:21:07 now um he says then you'll see in the first line this regardless of whether the lifts were considered new or modernized good practice would have been to consider if the lifts could be fully

01:21:18 consider if the lifts could be fully upgraded to the firefighting standard so far as was reasonably practicable are you able to agree or disagree with that statement

01:21:27 statement i have no comment i i i'm sure mr halkins must be right but i had no involvement in that that wasn't my uh part of the contract just for servicing the maintenance

01:21:38 servicing the maintenance and i wouldn't be aware of what was required well mindful of that if we can just go to paragraph 22 of one of your statements which can be found at tm0086023

01:21:51 be found at tm0086023 forward slash three

01:21:54 if we go to paragraph 22 in the second line

01:21:58 line you say this at the time the industry view

01:22:02 view was that a fireman's lift was a perfectly appropriate lift for a building which should have compartmentation to the best of my knowledge the specification was always to require lifts

01:22:10 lifts to comply with british standard 5655 now was that view based on your experience or was it based on a reading of the

01:22:21 or was it based on a reading of the relevant standards my experience

01:22:30 now can i ask you specifically about questions about the fire control switch and if we go to bsi quadruple zero one seven two eight and this hopefully should be another

01:22:41 and this hopefully should be another british standard which concerns engineering and safety features to be incorporated when modernizing electric lifts and if we can go to page six

01:22:54 and we see at the top this is concerned with modernization by altering of existing installations what this paragraph says at the very top left hand

01:23:06 left hand corner it says this where the controller of a fireman's lift is changed the control system should comply with bs5508 part 5. now

01:23:19 part 5. now to the lay eye that looks as if the new fire control system should comply with double five double eight five would you agree with that

01:23:28 it looks like it yes and that applies regardless of whether the works for a modernization for an installation of a new lift from that

01:23:37 that what it says there yes i agree

01:23:40 now can i turn on to a separate topic now and that's the tmo's own lift standards could have applied and if i could ask you first of all to go to

01:23:51 go to mr ian morehouse's second statement which can be found at but quadruple zero double zero five four forward slash five

01:24:05 and we get paragraph 12 at the bottom of that page

01:24:12 and he says three lines up from the bottom this i was aware from other projects that david that's david steppel had developed the kctmos lift strategy such as determining which lifts were

01:24:23 such as determining which lifts were most in need of modernization and that he had developed the kc tmo's own lift standards although i never saw them now first of all did kctimo have its own

01:24:35 first of all did kctimo have its own lift standards no

01:24:42 bearing in mind that answer do you have any

01:24:46 any educated uh assessment of what mr morehouse might have been thinking when he referred to casey timo's own lift standards there we had a ongoing 25

01:24:57 ongoing 25 year refurbishment policy uh depending on the age of the lift and the usage of the lift and those lifts were renewed going through

01:25:10 so your understanding was there was a enough strategy done specifically yes but you weren't annoyed about any specific

01:25:17 specific standards that applied to the type of classification of lifts to be installed in tmo buildings yes

01:25:25 now justice will bottom out at this point and just to have the benefit of your view on it could i ask us to go to paragraph 19 in this statement which is at page seven

01:25:41 at page seven and if we look really at the second sentence which starts on the second line mr morehouse says in relation to a particular element of the brief

01:25:53 element of the brief the section also stated that firefighting evacuation lift requirements shall be addressed section 10 has headed new installation general requirements it was my understanding so this is mr moorhouse that this section 10 reflected

01:26:04 moorhouse that this section 10 reflected kc timo's lift standards at that time and there's no reference at all to firefighting lifts in this section 10. now having regard to what mr morehouse says there uh are you able to assist again as to

01:26:16 uh are you able to assist again as to whether there were any particular standards applied by mr steppel no

01:26:24 now can i turn to the project itself and first of all the drafting of the project brief and could i go to first of all tm00853783

01:26:39 and particular page two

01:26:44 there we go we have the front page which is the project brief for consultants for the project one um first of all do you recognize that document no um can you help us as

01:26:57 that document no um can you help us as to who drafted the project brief for project one that will be mr steppel did you have any involvement in that process no

01:27:06 do you know if anyone else had any involvement in the drafting of the project brief i don't know

01:27:13 now could we go to page five in this document

01:27:22 and you will see in paragraph 1.5 the first entry is other council personnel under rules and responsibilities and it's called

01:27:33 responsibilities and it's called technical services tmo contact robin colan senior lift engineer first of all were you aware that you were in fact a tmo contact for a project or at least one of them

01:27:45 i was aware relative to the service in the maintenances i've already stated now in we don't need to go to them but in paragraphs 15 and 18

01:27:56 paragraphs 15 and 18 of your first statement and the reference can be found at tmo double zero

01:28:01 zero eight double six zero two three forward slash

01:28:04 slash two uh you refer to you yourself being aware quotes of the first project

01:28:11 project now given that you're identified as a contact here that tends to suggest that your involvement was more substantive than mere awareness would you accept

01:28:22 than mere awareness would you accept that

01:28:23 that yes i'd accept that yes now if we can look at the requirements of the brief itself and if we could go to page 12 within this document

01:28:36 and then we have clause 1.1 under the heading client requirements and we've looked at this with a number of the other lift witnesses both this weekend last week and it says

01:28:47 both this weekend last week and it says this the tenant management organization tmo and the lancaster west estate management board emb require a condition and feasibility report on the two traction passenger

01:28:58 report on the two traction passenger lifts serving grenfell tower and the single hydraulic passenger lift serving the adjacent offices now the next sentence of the first paragraph says this the report

01:29:09 first paragraph says this the report shall address the client's concerns in respect to the immediate and medium-term maintenance viability of the existing installations given the current level of failures availability of replacement parts

01:29:21 availability of replacement parts compliance to latest british standards and energy conservation now looking at that last part of

01:29:27 part of that sentence which refers to addressing compliance with british standards was the tmo's expectation that the feasibility report would address compliance of the new

01:29:38 would address compliance of the new lifts with british standards

01:29:43 that's what he says i wasn't i wasn't particularly aware of that as i said i was involved with the lifts breaking down the failures and the unavailability of parts i should have asked this perhaps in fairness to you but do you remember

01:29:55 fairness to you but do you remember being provided with a copy of the project brief back in 2000 would you have been provided with this type of document before work started on lift projects no

01:30:08 before work started on lift projects no in those circumstances um how would you know

01:30:11 know what works were to be carried out mr stepper would tell me when the works were carried out yeah so you wouldn't see the specification either

01:30:21 either i did see the specification for grenfell tower

01:30:24 tower to give comments relative to maintenance and servicing yes and confined to that limited issue of service and maintenance i would have seen the specification but i wouldn't have commented on that that wasn't my expertise

01:30:42 now could i go to page 17 in this document

01:30:51 and it's the section 10 that we were just looking at previously which mr morehouse understood to reflect what he understood to be tmo internal standards

01:31:02 standards and you'll see if we can go to 10.23 on this page

01:31:13 there needs to be a fireman switch at the ground floor and if we drop down to 1026 it says that landing doors and firemen switch to be operated by express anti-vandal drop keys

01:31:25 express anti-vandal drop keys now both of those were specified as part of this project brief um were you aware of those requirements at all before it looks like

01:31:36 at all before it looks like the things that we would have done in the life refurbishment to our lift cars i don't remember the exact document but i would imagine that would have gone along with the brief to say

01:31:47 along with the brief to say what was required yes now if we can put the project brief to one side and consider something different but related

01:31:56 related and that's an instruction from david steppel

01:31:59 steppel that the apex witnesses referred to last week in the butler and young rather witnesses referred to last week now both mr ellis and mr morehouse said that david steppel specifically

01:32:11 said that david steppel specifically instructed them not to consider the issue of firefighting lifts in the feasibility study

01:32:16 study do you remember such an instruction being referred to by mr steppel no were you aware of any such instructions no

01:32:26 do you recall any discussion with mr steffel about firefighting lifts and whether it would be a good idea to have that knockout yeah that's my next question

01:32:41 do you know or are you aware of any reasons that might have led mr steppel to have given such an instruction no would you have been consulted on such

01:32:52 no would you have been consulted on such matters by mr steppel no do you remember him discussing any concerns about costs in relation to what type of lift was to be installed at grenfell

01:33:04 grenfell no do you remember mr steffel raising any concerns about structural uh environmental or other practical issues which may uh limit or define the type of lift that

01:33:16 limit or define the type of lift that could be installed at grenfell

01:33:20 no were you involved in consideration of the risks of not installing a firefighting lift put down

01:33:32 now a slightly related issue in your first statement you stated that paragraph 40 which can be found at

01:33:41 tm0086023 forward slash five we don't need to go to it uh that you estimated uh the cost of upgrading the lifts to firefighting lifts to be around 10 000 pounds per lift can you help us how

01:33:54 000 pounds per lift can you help us how you reach that figure i'll have a go yeah i did write it down yesterday but i wasn't allowed to bring papers with me that was following the conversation i believe with janice ray

01:34:05 believe with janice ray and uh the guy who was doing the fire risk assessment and i said it will be 10 000 pounds per lift

01:34:15 lift or more i

01:34:18 or more i thought that the secondary supply will be 2000

01:34:23 be 2000 the roof trap will be 500 pounds the covering within the lift shaft taking into consideration that the landing

01:34:35 into consideration that the landing locks are covered the top of the lift car equipment is already covered i allowed another thousand for that i allow for a pit pump and i allow

01:34:46 i allow for a pit pump and i allow for the landing intercom system which i made about 9 000 pounds but i was never asked to carry out full feasibility

01:34:57 feasibility if i did i think it may have been nearer to 15

01:35:00 to 15 16 000 relative to the secondary supply and if we needed to take the water away from the left pit then there will be building works involved

01:35:11 involved taken out to the outside of the building so in retrospect i was a little bit low there but that was just the ballpark figure

01:35:17 figure mr ellis referred to a figure of between seventy and a hundred thousand pounds for both lifts what would what would be your response to that estimate i think mr rose is the lift consultant

01:35:29 i think mr rose is the lift consultant and he may well have done this before and would be more likely to be right than i was so you defer to him in that respect but i would have gone to him to carry out the feasibility report in the end and he would have come back and

01:35:41 the end and he would have come back and said look your figure's too low but that is the figure that i reached and i reached that by what i thought was around those ballpark figures at that time but it wasn't a full visibility report

01:35:53 but it wasn't a full visibility report and it was around 10 thousand per lift so we're saying

01:35:57 saying twenty-five thousand whereas he says seventy yes thank you okay now um can we look at what the project the first project involved and can we look at uh sort of the detail

01:36:08 and can we look at uh sort of the detail and see whether we agree on what it involved

01:36:13 involved first of all it involved an increase in lift capacity from eight to 12 people is that right yes and an increase of lift speed yes and it required the replacement of the following components and if i go

01:36:24 the following components and if i go through them and you say yes or no as your memory suggests first of all a complete new lift car yes

01:36:33 sorry replacement of a complete lift car i should say yes replacement of the counterweight yes replacement of the castling and platform with the counterweight

01:36:44 with the counterweight i'm now 100 certain on that but i have listened to the previous guys have given i i thought they may have reused parts of the counterweight but i'm most likely wrong on that and that's

01:36:55 i'm most likely wrong on that and that's just me guessing so i'd say yes the council subjects that caveat you've given yes um the castling and platform yes uh safety gear yes door operator yes

01:37:06 uh safety gear yes door operator yes car doors yes landing doors yes landing control system yes landing pit buffers

01:37:14 buffers yes electrical wiring yes lift controller yes and the lift motor gearbox yes thank you now if we go to the specification uh which is at but

01:37:25 specification uh which is at but quadruple zero double zero double four forward slash 12. and clause 1.3.1 at the top

01:37:37 and clause 1.3.1 at the top now this summarizes what was intended to be retained in the two electrical uh passenger lifts first of all the guides and single rise of the cargo guide brackets and secondly the landing

01:37:48 guide brackets and secondly the landing back boxes does that reflect your recollection of what was actually retained yes

01:37:57 now the evidence from last week was that whilst the car guides were retained they were in fact relocated does that accord with your memory as well yes

01:38:08 now in your statement to paragraph seven this is your first first statement of paragraph 27 i should say and we don't need to go to it but the reference is at tm00866023

01:38:20 the reference is at tm00866023 forward slash three you stated that the crown

01:38:23 crown bar and car frame were retained now on fuller reflection am i having taking you through these matters is that still your

01:38:34 these matters is that still your evidence or not the answer is no but as i previously said when i answered that it was to help the inquiry and that was a general that generally

01:38:45 and that was a general that generally the crown bar or the guides are kept thank you and what i said there so the answer is no they weren't kept but it was just a generalization in the in an attempt to help with

01:38:58 in the in an attempt to help with the fact that you i didn't think you were a lift engineer thank you now um can i turn to a separate topic which is apex's involvement and what they're required to do

01:39:09 they're required to do now they were the lift contractors for project one is that right yes now did apex ever raise any concerns with you or indeed to the best of your knowledge with anyone else at the tmo

01:39:20 at the tmo about whether the specification should provide explicitly for firefighting lifts

01:39:24 lifts no

01:39:27 no did you have cause have any conversations with anyone from apex regarding the type of lift to be installed no

01:39:36 do you remember in any conversation with anyone from apex then referring to an instruction from mr steppel that firefighting lifts would not be considered no

01:39:51 if butler and young for example had raised any concerns safety related concerns regarding the lifts to be installed would you have considered discussing making changes to the specification at

01:40:03 making changes to the specification at that stage or was that not for you and for mr steppel it was completely misunderstood they wouldn't they wouldn't have come to me

01:40:12 now can i turn uh to a separate topic which is the fire control switch at project one um now we've looked at the um the specification or roger the project brief at paragraph

01:40:23 or roger the project brief at paragraph 10.26

01:40:24 10.26 which required landing doors in the fireman's switch to be operated by an express

01:40:30 express anti-vandal drop key did you or did mr steppel include that requirement in the project brief it would have been mr steppel but i would have advised him of that

01:40:43 would have advised him of that or i would have agreed with him on that because that's what we use worldwide they were supplied by lift components limited

01:40:51 limited they were an anti-vandal key whereas the euro key

01:40:55 euro key i understand uh around that time you could

01:40:59 could obtain them anywhere from ebay or anywhere so we wanted the anti-vandal key

01:41:04 key as we have with the other 170 lives across the borough now in his uh statement stephen ellis said in its paragraph capital a little f and the references found at but

01:41:16 references found at but quadruple zero double zero four zero forward slash eight but we don't need to go to it he said that it was considered that triangular euro key was too available and therefore vulnerable to abuse by unauthorized persons does that reflect

01:41:28 unauthorized persons does that reflect the view at the time that was taken by i was just saying yes i agree

01:41:40 were you aware of any concerns that copy express dropkeys will also widely available

01:41:46 available no i wasn't aware of that they were supplied by lcl lift components who were part of the express lift company who designed them and that was the only place i thought you could obtain them from

01:41:57 you could obtain them from and you don't remember doctrine young or apex expressing any concerns that express drop keys were available yeah now can i turn to another topic which is testing of a fire control switch

01:42:09 testing of a fire control switch can you help us how often do the lift contractors test the fire control switch it will be part of the service in uh which they carry out on a monthly

01:42:22 uh which they carry out on a monthly basis i'm not sure possibly to bi-monthly possibly buy monthly

01:42:28 monthly now um it seems if we can go to possibly a planned service visit report from ils now first of all who were ils independent lift services thank you if we go to tmo double zero

01:42:39 thank you if we go to tmo double zero eight seven one two eight seven forward slash one

01:42:46 this probably gives you something practical to look at yeah now this uh looks like a planned service visit report uh dated the 10th of january

01:42:58 uh dated the 10th of january 2011 we see that in the top right box first of all am i reading that right yeah and that the inspection dates noted on the report appear to be the 11th of

01:43:10 on the report appear to be the 11th of november 2010 7th of december 2010 and the 10th of january 2011. again am i reading that right that's right now we see on the first page in the

01:43:21 now we see on the first page in the right hand column under the heading landings and three points down the report lists fire control and the letter s so s for sierra appears to the left-hand

01:43:34 so s for sierra appears to the left-hand side

01:43:35 side now if we de-amplify and look at the bottom

01:43:39 bottom left-hand corner we see a key which has headed codes and the s for sierra denotes or connotes serviceable is that right that's right

01:43:50 serviceable is that right that's right would you have seen or first of all would you have seen this type of report routinely yes now the report there as we've just

01:44:01 now the report there as we've just discussed refers to fire control do you know if this is a reference the manual fire control switch operated with an express key or is it a reference to the automatic fire recall system

01:44:12 system at that time it was the manual control switch yes thank you now can i turn on to a separate topic which is testing by tmo staff now was more frequent testing carried out by tmo staff

01:44:25 carried out by tmo staff on the fire control switch each building had its own fire evacuation procedure and the caretakers were given their own

01:44:38 work scheduled by each office i actually instructed them in how to release people from this for instance but that would be for the area manager

01:44:49 but that would be for the area manager to

01:44:49 to instruct their staff when to carry that out obviously you couldn't keep using it you'd

01:44:54 you'd cause problems with the tenants if they didn't have any lifts so that would have to be done at a specific time when agreed with the caretakers as part of their daily or monthly routine thank you my question was

01:45:06 routine thank you my question was was more frequent testing so was testing carried out by tm staff more frequently than by the independent lift contractors i don't know

01:45:17 contractors i don't know in answer the question who carried out this testing is the answer caretakers later known as esa's yes

01:45:24 now bs55085 section 5 subsection 17.2 recommends weekly testing of the fire control switch

01:45:34 switch and first of all were you aware of that requirement no

01:45:43 um there was a separate standard which is relevant here which is bs em 8172 uh 2015 which is an update of the 2003 standards and that says and the reference we don't

01:45:55 and that says and the reference we don't need to go to it is a bsi quadruple zero zero eight two four of that two states the fire control switch should typically be checked weekly were you aware of uh the previous

01:46:06 were you aware of uh the previous version of that standard having that recommendation

01:46:11 did you ever consider testing the control switch on a weekly basis no did anyone suggest to you that it ought to have been no now you say in your statement of

01:46:23 no now you say in your statement of paragraph 28 which is at tm0086023 forward slash 3 that you try and visit each lift every six months is that right

01:46:34 six months is that right can you repeat that yes of course you say in your statement paragraph 28 and the reference is tmo double zero eight double six zero two three forward slash three that might well be if we can put that on the

01:46:45 might well be if we can put that on the screen

01:46:48 paragraph twenty eight at the very

01:46:52 bottom maybe i just let you refresh your memory

01:47:02 you say in the second sentence on the second line i try to visit each of the 160 lifts in the tmo portfolio every six months is that right i did try to but that didn't always

01:47:13 i did try to but that didn't always happen but especially towards the last couple of years when i was the engineer with the tmo when i was involved in other projects and it tended to be problem run if we had problems on lifts

01:47:26 problem run if we had problems on lifts then i'd go along to them and it ended up in the end that i was the only lift engineer so my job became more difficult to keep to that schedule

01:47:37 to that schedule just for the sake of completeness mr steadman who's in the esa at grenfell tower i suspect you knew um estimated you would visit once a month

01:47:45 month um generous or jealous um whilst the refurbishment was going on we only have one lift going obviously the other lift was being renewed

01:47:56 the other lift was being renewed so that one lift was doing twice as much work

01:48:00 work and also it been breaking down previously which was the reason we were renewing them so if i was in the area i would keep an eye just to see how things were going that lift was running because i didn't want to leave the

01:48:11 because i didn't want to leave the building without any lifts now i'm doing these if i call them six monthly visits um what checks would you carry out to the left just standard visual checks

01:48:25 to the left just standard visual checks and what do you mean by looking within the motor room to see if they've been maintained checking the log card looking on top of the lift looking within the lift pit sometimes i'd go down the lift shaft to

01:48:36 sometimes i'd go down the lift shaft to check the landing door equipment what would a visual inspection tell you about the quality or regularity of maintenance it would tell me if the maintenance is being carried out can you explain to the

01:48:47 being carried out can you explain to the panel

01:48:48 panel how and why lift grime would accumulate within the lift shaft and the lift pit the log card wouldn't be completed with the correct date because the engineer had to sign every visit and just the general

01:49:01 every visit and just the general the lift door operation or or uh push buttons not lighting up there were certain items within the lift which would point out to me

01:49:12 me in my 40 years experience that the lift wasn't being serviced um would you um check the fire control switch itself no i wouldn't and why wouldn't you do that it wasn't

01:49:23 and why wouldn't you do that it wasn't something that i felt i needed to do because i know the estate staff were dealing with it and you had no reason to doubt that they weren't doing it is that that's right yes

01:49:35 now can we go to tmo double zero eight four nine

01:49:38 four nine double three zero

01:49:46 which should be the lifts the tmos lift safety breakdown and trap in policy and procedure this date of june 2012 as you can see from the top first

01:49:57 2012 as you can see from the top first of all

01:49:58 of all have you seen this before no

01:50:03 now could we go to page 30 that's 3-0 uh we see the checks by staff to the lifts two

01:50:14 checks by staff to the lifts two sections caretakers and the tmo senior lift engineer now looking at the latter it says this periodic checks are to be by the tmo lift engineer to cover safety

01:50:26 the tmo lift engineer to cover safety gear emergency alarms emergency car lighting lift machine room and emergency lighting etc in accordance with statutory regulations the above to include the little firemen switches where fitted

01:50:38 the little firemen switches where fitted operate correctly monthly ensure that hand winding wheel and brake release are in correct place monthly

01:50:48 now from what you're saying you did not carry out monthly checking i haven't seen that and i i wouldn't have done that though

01:50:57 did you ever have any conversation with mr stepper where he said uh the fire control switch ought to be checked monthly

01:51:03 monthly mr steppel never said that though do you say anything along did he ask ever ask you to

01:51:08 you to no if you let me complete the question sorry did he ever ask you whether you were checking the fire control switch monthly or indeed on any other

01:51:16 any other uh regulations

01:51:29 um for the sake of completeness can i ask us to go to mr howkins report which is a rho

01:51:34 is a rho quadruple zero treble zero three forward slash one eight one and paragraph

01:51:41 paragraph four six three

01:51:53 now mr howkins here makes the following summary of his opinion bs55085 1991 section 5 subsection 17.2 point e

01:52:04 subsection 17.2 point e states that operational testing of the firefighting lift controls is described as section c1 ought to be carried out annually the procedure described in c1 is comprehensive

01:52:15 comprehensive i've reviewed the witness statements of david smelly and mark wallace particularly paragraphs 25-28 and 22-24 respectively in my view the testing described in their statements

01:52:26 testing described in their statements matches up to parts of the procedure in c1 but it is not as comprehensive as the procedure described in c1 i've seen no other evidence suggest that on an

01:52:34 an annual basis the full tests described in c1 were carried out in my view tmo should have arranged for the testing described in c1 to happen on an annual basis and they fail to do so

01:52:45 fail to do so um first of all were you aware of section c1 no and so presumably you were unaware of its requirements that's correct and so you're unaware therefore of whether and if so to what

01:52:57 therefore of whether and if so to what extent

01:52:58 extent the tmo were complying with its requirements that's correct yes david smelly and mark wallace i don't know those names i think they have been uh later after i'd left i

01:53:09 they have been uh later after i'd left i would guess

01:53:15 i would imagine that maybe pedes thank you so it's just coming up to five to twelve

01:53:22 to twelve the next topic will take more than five minutes might this be an appropriate juncture to have uh the break yeah so perhaps we should we probably could limit it to ten minutes at the stage could we i'd be

01:53:33 minutes at the stage could we i'd be grateful thank you yes um let's take a long we have a break during each session and now it seems like a good time to take it i think we can probably get away with ten minutes unless you think you need any longer no fine yeah so we'll come back at five

01:53:46 fine yeah so we'll come back at five past twelve and uh the only thing to say to you is please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room thank you all right thank you very much i'd like to give the usher

01:54:05 uh thank you 5 12. thank you

02:06:15 yes would you ask me to come on to come back in please

02:06:29 it's right mr kalan all ready to carry on yes i'm fine thank you very much yes mr kenneth thanks sir um can we discuss briefly the automatic fire recall

02:06:37 recall system um can you remember why was it disconnected i had nothing to do with any fire record systems i believe that was the electrical department the tmo electrical guides

02:06:49 tmo electrical guides can you remember when it was done after the completion of the contract i think but i had no involvement with that whatsoever thank you now can we turn to um some

02:07:01 thank you now can we turn to um some correspondence that pass between you and others at the tmo after the completion of project one and could i go in particular to an email the 28th of february 2011. which can be

02:07:12 the 28th of february 2011. which can be found at cst quadruple 0-1781

02:07:24 now there's an email dated the 28th of february we see their center 11 25 which is at the bottom of the page the email is sent by you to janice ray

02:07:35 the email is sent by you to janice ray under the

02:07:36 under the heading firefighting evacuation lifts and it says this and i quote as recently discussed standards on firefighting evacuation lifts which are not retrospect have become a

02:07:47 which are not retrospect have become a lot clearer over the last year none of the tmo lifts a firefighting or evacuation lifts the termo stock do have some of the requirements but the cost to meet the

02:07:58 requirements but the cost to meet the recommended recommended standards would prevent us upgrading our lifts now first of all do you recall this conversation i don't but it's clearly my email

02:08:09 i don't but it's clearly my email now one thing that you've consistently emphasized in your evidence is that you were concerned with servicing and maintenance correct now looking at the contents of this very

02:08:21 looking at the contents of this very brief email first of all it would indicate that you had thought about the issue of whether lifts and the tmo stock could or

02:08:29 or should be upgraded to firefighting lifts first of all is that a fair summary i thought about it in that around that time

02:08:41 time the lifts were in kensington town hall they'd taken a decision to add a secondary

02:08:48 secondary backup and i asked them why and they said it was part of the fire fighting lifts and also thamesbrook home for the elderly in the kings road

02:09:00 kings road they'd asked me about it and i met a member from the fire brigade from the kings road fire brigade and after discussions about the firefighting lifts he said the

02:09:11 the firefighting lifts he said the building wasn't high enough and it wasn't appropriate to be fitted in thames brook old people's home so those were the occasions after the grenfell tower installation

02:09:23 installation where i did know a little bit about this before i left a year later but looking at the first line of this email you say standards on firefighting evacuation lifts which are not retrospect have become a

02:09:35 which are not retrospect have become a lot clearer over the last year that 10 suggests that you'd considered the applicable standards in some detail is that right or wrong no i hadn't

02:09:44 i hadn't looked at them in any detail though and so

02:09:47 so when you say in the next paragraph that the cost to meet the recommended recommended standards would prevent us upgrading our lifts that view was not based on a considered

02:09:58 that view was not based on a considered or deep reading first of all of the standards themselves that's correct and so you couldn't have formed

02:10:06 formed an informed view of the costs that were necessary

02:10:10 necessary to enhance it would have been from looking at themselves the amount of requirements that they were looking at there where i would have given myself some sort of idea of the cost relevant

02:10:21 some sort of idea of the cost relevant to

02:10:21 to 160 lifts throughout the borough and there just wasn't that sort of finances available to do that at the time so you reached that view on the basis of one distinct building

02:10:33 one distinct building that was really extrapolated to all 160 buildings in the tmo stock is that right

02:10:40 yes had you sought any uh expert or external advice

02:10:45 advice regarding uh the extent of the work that would be required to enhance the tmo stock of list i hadn't if i was asked to carry out a feasibility report i would have but you never were i never was

02:11:01 did you discuss the issue of weather and if so to what extent to upgrade the lifts in the tmo stock with anyone at the tma such as janice ray no

02:11:15 was there ever a specific recommendation from anyone in your department that lifts in the tmo stock should be enhanced to firefighting lift status no

02:11:29 now if we uh can de-amplify that email and stay on this page but look at car stokes's response from the 28th of february

02:11:42 and it's addressed to janice ray and he says hygienist as far as i know the requirements for a firefighting lift evacuation left did not change in the

02:11:53 evacuation left did not change in the march 2010 edition of building rags next time i am in the hub could we sit down with robin as he might have different information than me does he have copies of the information he is

02:12:04 information he is talking about he could forward to me carl now first of all did you ever have a conversation with mr stokes as to the applicable standards

02:12:14 standards that were required for firefighting lifts no

02:12:18 lifts no did you ever provide mr stokes with any further information regarding the applicable standards not that i can remember no when you referred in your earlier email to

02:12:29 to standards on firefighting evacuation lists having become a lot clearer what had prompted that increased clarity over their requirements

02:12:40 over their requirements it wasn't clarity as such i became more aware of it because of the two previous sites that i've already mentioned to you

02:12:54 can we look at paragraph 36 of your statement which is a tmo double zero eight double six zero two three forward slash 4

02:13:02 slash 4 and paragraph 36

02:13:10 i'll just let you refresh your memory

02:13:26 did you ever tell mr stokes that the lifts at grenfell tower were firemen's lifts

02:13:30 lifts no now in his evidence on the 26th of may of this year mr stokes stated in the reference we don't need to go to but the reference is day 137

02:13:41 day 137 page 159 line 17. he said that he met you

02:13:45 you following this email at the end of february

02:13:48 february and he was asked at that meeting did he give that's you did he give you any reassurance that the lifts didn't in fact meet the requirements and he responded

02:13:59 responded yes and that was in the context of firefighting lifts do you recall that conversation with me

02:14:07 carl stokes stated that you advised him that the lifts had quotes dedicated power supplies close quotes he stated that and i quote it was everything apart from virtually the lift hatch

02:14:18 the lift hatch close quotes he also said and i quote i think we accepted that they were met the standard of the previous document which is dedicated power supply do you remember that discussion she

02:14:29 do you remember that discussion she didn't say that and that's not correct

02:14:33 are you denying that that conversation never took place as far as i can remember yes and was there a separate dedicated power supply there wasn't no

02:14:44 did you ever provide any reassurance to carl stokes that the lifts at grenfell were firefighting left not that i remember no did you ever say to him that there were firefighting

02:14:55 to him that there were firefighting lifts

02:14:56 lifts according to the standards at the time of installation that's say 2005-2006 no or according to the standards at the time of your conversation or the alleged conversation in 2011.

02:15:08 conversation in 2011. no

02:15:13 did you ever have any discussion with mr stokes about upgrading the lifts at grenfell

02:15:17 grenfell to firefighting lyft status no i don't remember hardly any conversations with mr stokes he was around the office occasionally but i never had any meetings or any sort of meetings where i would make

02:15:29 sort of meetings where i would make statements like that can i now turn to the topic of maintenance um the maintenance regime of lyfts stay much the same

02:15:41 much the same following 2005 up until the time you retired at the end of 2012 yes um how frequent were maintenance visits

02:15:52 visits at greenville tower monthly

02:15:57 and who were the lift contractors that were retained by the tmo between say 2005 and when you left in december 2000 there was a year's free warranty period so apex for the

02:16:09 free warranty period so apex for the first year and then we had a bulk maintenance contract independent lift services took over

02:16:15 over til when i left my last project with the cmo

02:16:18 cmo was to try and get a new lift specification together which i spent quite a lot of time on in that last year in 2012. i understand that was never completed

02:16:29 i understand that was never completed can you remember how the services of ils were procured by tender right

02:16:38 do you remember any problems with maintenance contractors failing to first of all attend the regular maintenance visit when i first joined the otis lists were absolutely awful

02:16:50 absolutely awful but they didn't attend and we took them off the contract but dealing with the period 2005 to 2012. did you have problems no no problems whatsoever

02:17:04 what tests were the maintenance contractors expected to perform when they attended they had a schedule of items to be checked

02:17:13 checked and they carried out pm7s which became lg ones

02:17:17 lg ones gear inspections safety gear checks and governor checks on a five-year and 10-year basis were there any recurring or common problems reported in relation to the lifts of

02:17:28 reported in relation to the lifts of grenfell

02:17:29 grenfell off the top of my head no but as i've already said there was only lift one lift working which was due for refurbishment because it wasn't reliable and that was doing twice as much work so

02:17:41 and that was doing twice as much work so i would imagine there would have been problems yeah in the end we had to uh acquire a standby engineer to be available within one hour to fix that lift which was an extra cost

02:17:52 that lift which was an extra cost so to keep it going yes um was maintenance carried out by anyone other than ils

02:17:58 than ils and for the relevant yearly period apex not once that was there

02:18:07 would it be fair to say then that at least in your view apex for the relevant year after installation and thereafter ils performed their duties satisfactorily yes

02:18:20 how would you monitor the performance of the lift maintenance contractors we had monthly meetings and uh we at those meetings we would have breakdown logs

02:18:31 breakdown logs which we acquired from our our system of orders

02:18:35 orders with breakdowns i'd also get reports back from sight uh keith stevenson was very good he'd liaise with me and i'd make my visits whenever i was in the area

02:18:47 visits whenever i was in the area were problems ever reported uh in relation to the fire control switch no and you're adamant about that yes what what i can remember thank you can i

02:18:59 what what i can remember thank you can i now turn to the question of the tmo's fire safety policy um do you remember ever seeing the tmos fire safety policy no did you ever have any cause to ask

02:19:10 no did you ever have any cause to ask to see it no

02:19:14 were you ever consulted about the drafting or substance of the fire safety strategy

02:19:19 strategy no

02:19:24 will you ever sought for information by janice ray or others who are responsible for drafting no can we go to tm01 treble zero one five eight seven

02:19:44 i'll just let you briefly refresh them or

02:19:47 or read it i should say

02:19:54 can you remember ever seeing that document before i've never seen that

02:20:00 before

02:20:04 now if we can go to page 10

02:20:10 and we see at the top there's the heading fire safety and tmo lifts and it says this in part of the first paragraph

02:20:18 paragraph as much of the housing stock is medium and high rise the tmo have a large number of residential blocks which are served by one or more lifts not all of the criteria which define the

02:20:29 not all of the criteria which define the fire fighting lift are appropriate to our lifts specifically for example the requirement to have a trap door in the roof the lift cart etc could be detrimental to the safety of our lifts

02:20:41 our lifts if you didn't draft that are you able to assist the panel as to who might have drafted that no idea no but you don't remember your advice or guidance have been sought on these matters

02:20:53 what can you help us first of all do you agree that uh the requirement to have a trap door on the roof

02:21:02 roof the lift car could be detrimental to the safety of lift i agree with that would you like to see the library yes please when i joined the lift industry in 1967 and from 67 through to the 70s there

02:21:15 and from 67 through to the 70s there were more incidents of youths surfing within the lift shaft getting into the lift shaft and carrying up and down on the trailing flexes gaining access to the top of the lift

02:21:28 gaining access to the top of the lift through the hatch and subsequently it was the lcc in those days or pushing the hatch up and stopping the lift which the postman used to do so no one would come and steal

02:21:39 one would come and steal it from him so in the end they shut all of those hashes down throughout the lcc area and put lots of them

02:21:46 them you couldn't climb through the hatch anyway it was normally too small depending on the size of the lift and it was purely there to to look down the hatch and say okay guys the fire brigade are on their

02:21:57 okay guys the fire brigade are on their way so it was not really something that anyone thought was beneficiary well i'm surprised that it's now come back into the uh into everyone's within this system yeah

02:22:09 into everyone's within this system yeah thank you if we can go back to the safety strategy and the paragraph we were reading just before those questions and it's really the last few lines which start with the words however tmo left serving

02:22:21 with the words however tmo left serving blocks

02:22:22 blocks of a height greater than 18 meters do meet a significant number of these fire fighting lift criteria and these are set out below and then five

02:22:31 five particular items are set out minimum car size dedicated power supply two-way communication fireman's control switch

02:22:39 switch and lift car and landing doors are composed of stainless steel and over two hours

02:22:44 hours of fire resistance now strategy goes on to list the criteria of firefighting lift which was said to have been met now

02:22:55 which was said to have been met now first of all having read this and having me take you through it is your evidence still that you were not consulted i wasn't there

02:23:06 there in relation to that we had smaller lifts than eight person capacity lifts as a matter of fact is the statement that the tmo lifts serving blocks of a height greater than

02:23:17 serving blocks of a height greater than 18 meters do meet a significant number as a matter of fact would you accept that was correct or not yes

02:23:27 would it be your position that to be properly classified as a firefighting lift

02:23:32 lift a lift a lift would have to have all the features of a firefighting lift and not just some yes i agree that it should have all the features yes and on what basis do you hold that view

02:23:45 hold that view at this moment in time listening to the professionals who have been given uh well i think at the time was that of you held at the time i.e between 2005 and 2012 because that's

02:23:56 between 2005 and 2012 because that's what we were doing throughout the borough it wasn't something that i went into

02:24:00 into and that was given to by the consultants and dave stepple so i went along with yes i agreed with what they were saying i didn't have any reason to disagree

02:24:13 would the tier mode describe its lifts as firefighting lifts even though those lifts did not have all the features of a firefighting lift no and you're adamant about that yes and

02:24:24 and you're adamant about that yes and there would be no exception to that no

02:24:32 now

02:24:36 would you

02:24:39 read this fire safety strategy as uh indicating that there was a tendency to use the phrase firefighting lift

02:24:48 lift even where all lifts did not possess the qualities of a firefighting lift i agree with that yes do you remember where there was any or actually what term would be used

02:25:02 or actually what term would be used internally at the tmo when discussing lifts to describe the types of lifts that were installed would the phrase firefighting lift be used normally or not at all i wouldn't i would call it a fireman's lift but this looks like it's something

02:25:14 lift but this looks like it's something that

02:25:16 that drummed up when they were getting procedures together for the tmo because it was around 2010 so i'm guessing that well this is 2012. i was oh that i'd gone by then so i wouldn't be aware

02:25:29 wouldn't be aware in your conversations with janice ray did she ever use a specific description of the lifts that were in the high-rise buildings

02:25:36 buildings no do you recall her using the phrase firefighting lyft no did mr steppel ever use the phrase firefighting

02:25:49 could i ask you to turn to paragraph 36 of your first statement which is at tmo double zero eight double six

02:25:56 six zero two three forward slash four

02:26:01 i'll just let you refresh your memory of your statement there

02:26:33 now that flows on from the evidence you've just given that you weren't aware that the tmo had its own definition of a firefighting lift and you did not understand the reference now if we could

02:26:44 understand the reference now if we could go back

02:26:45 go back to the fire safety strategy so tmo one treble zero one five eight seven forward slash ten

02:27:05 thank you and if we could look at the very bottom of that page

02:27:11 it says their attached appendix 7 is a comprehensive lift list of all tmo lifts firefighting lifts as described above are indicated by bold type now that tends to suggest

02:27:25 type now that tends to suggest that the tmo had its own definition of firefighting lifts would you accept that

02:27:33 i can't really guess can i i i i would agree with you on that but i don't know yes but

02:27:41 yes but i don't want to it would suggest that they have their own but in practice and mindful of your obligations uh is it right to summarize your evidence that first of all you're aware

02:27:52 evidence that first of all you're aware that none of the lifts on the termo stock were firefighting left i agree with that would it be equally right to say uh that um uh you never used that phrase firefighting

02:28:04 you never used that phrase firefighting lift to describe any of the discussions with others at the tmo no i wouldn't

02:28:09 wouldn't was there at any time between 2005 and 2012 any confusion as to the classification of the lifts that you were sought to that you had to clarify and resolve i

02:28:21 that you had to clarify and resolve i didn't have to know

02:28:28 could we go to tm0120157

02:28:37 now this appears to be another iteration of the fire safety strategy and we think it's dated or is dated october 2012. and if we can go to page 10

02:28:51 it says there you see roughly below halfway 18.2 heading firefighting lifts the paragraph immediately under that subheading says this

02:29:01 this as much of the housing stock is made up of medium rise and high rise blocks a large number of these are set by one or more lifts where appropriate fire fighting lifts are provided within tmo residential blocks

02:29:12 blocks this is to satisfy the requirements of the building regulations because of the height of the building 18 meters etc when the lifts are installed they are compliant with the relevant standards current

02:29:23 current at that time similarly when replacement lifts are installed these are compliant with the standards current at the time of replacement the criteria for tmo firefighting lifts is set out

02:29:34 is set out below now

02:29:39 in october 2012 as i understand your evidence there were no firefighting lifts properly

02:29:46 have you seen this document before no can you remember in the run-up to october 2012 being consulted by anyone at the tmo as the particular type of lifts that were

02:29:57 the particular type of lifts that were in the tmo stock no

02:30:03 at this stage was mr steppel still retained by the tma her employees believe he left in 2010 other than yourself was there anyone else at the tmo who could have been uh sensibly consulted as the type of

02:30:15 uh sensibly consulted as the type of lifts that were on the tmo stock

02:30:20 no they'd have to go to an outside source a lift consultant or a lift maintenance contractor i believe janice did speak to have the switch that you were talking about earlier direct with apex so

02:30:31 about earlier direct with apex so she did speak to the lift company she may have spoke to lift consultants but you don't know if there was any conversation no attention to this no you can't assist on that point

02:30:42 can't assist on that point okay she weren't involved i wasn't

02:30:50 now this version of the strategy acknowledges that firefighting lifts

02:30:56 lifts should be provided in buildings over 18 meters would you agree that that's a fair reading of what's set out in that paragraph

02:31:03 paragraph yes was that your understanding at the time when you were employed by the tmo as a lift engineer i wouldn't have no i wouldn't have been involved in anything like that no um when

02:31:16 anything like that no um when the paragraph says this when replacement lifts are installed these are compliant with standards current at the time of replacement that indicates that the tmo's understanding was that when lifts were replaced

02:31:27 replaced those replacements had to comply with current standards again would you accept that's a fair reading of that paragraph that was written in 2012

02:31:37 yes 10 years after the lifts are installed yes i'm just asking you about this document that that document is right yes that's correct

02:31:46 correct now following on from that answer is the summary of principle set out here was that the tier most practice at the time of project one ie in 2003 2004.

02:32:00 were you ever consulted upon a change in the tmos policy in practice between 2003 2004 and the date of this document october 2012. no

02:32:20 can i go to eight tm0084 nine double three zero

02:32:27 and this is the document we considered earlier which is the tmos lift safety breakdown and trap in policy procedure which you said you hadn't seen before and if we go to page 10 of this document

02:32:39 and if we go to page 10 of this document in section 17

02:32:43 we see that 17.2 it says this building regulations all lifts

02:32:49 lifts lift machine rooms and shafts are to be constructed in accordance with the latest regulations in relation to fire now that also suggests that lyft should meet the contemporaneous standards for fire

02:33:00 contemporaneous standards for fire safety

02:33:00 safety at least at the time of their construction was that your understanding of the policy that tiemoue applied at least in june 2012 we didn't build any new lift shafts or

02:33:12 any new lift shafts or new lift motorists in the period of time i was there there were no new builds whatsoever and so you in practical experience you had no need to refer to that particular provision or be aware of it that's

02:33:23 provision or be aware of it that's correct

02:33:26 now can i ask you um finally about the walkway switch at grenfell tower now it appears that a second fire control switch was installed on the walkway floor of the tower um do you know first of all

02:33:40 of the tower um do you know first of all why i don't know what's i don't know when

02:33:43 when whether that was fitted i'm not aware of that no

02:33:46 that no um were you aware that it had been disconnected no

02:33:53 and finally just a point of clarification um you left december 2012 so before the second lift project started yes and you had no involvement in that project

02:34:04 in that project thank you so i've come to the end of my prepared questions um i'd be grateful for uh 10 minutes to review whether i've missed out anything and to see whether anyone has any other relevant questions to be asked

02:34:16 relevant questions to be asked right well mr kalan if you've been watching our proceedings you'll know that at this point when council thinks he's finished his questions we have a short break okay to give him chance just

02:34:27 short break okay to give him chance just to check that there's nothing he's overlooked and to give other people who aren't here the chance to suggest questions that perhaps we should ask you so we'll we'll break now until cough to one

02:34:38 break now until cough to one and then when you come back of course to one we'll see if there are any more questions for you thank you all right thank you very much

02:34:53 i think 10 minutes will probably be enough but if you need more time just i should know thanks to one thank you

02:48:42 would you ask mr colan to come back here please

02:48:53 [Music]

02:48:56 all right mr killon well we'll see if there's any more questions for you yes mr kim a few questions sir right um can i ask us to go to s a l quadruple zero double zero

02:49:07 s a l quadruple zero double zero four two

02:49:45 thank you now as you see these are minutes of a meeting on the 23rd of february 2010 to consider fire risk assessments and high-risk blocks we can see that you attended you're the

02:49:56 attended you're the last of the attendees identified there um do you remember this meeting no if we look at paragraph 2.1 it says this

02:50:05 this robin collin tmo lift engineer attended for this item that item being requirements of firefighting lifts etc janus advised that a number of fra action plans would raise specific

02:50:17 action plans would raise specific queries in relation to lifts and these had been referred to robin who was seeking confirmation from salvas that his interpretation of what constitutes a firefighting lift is the same as air as theirs now first

02:50:28 is the same as air as theirs now first of all what queries can you remember were referred to you i've i've never heard of salvos i don't remember the meeting at all if we go further down we see a box immediately below paragraph 2.1

02:50:40 immediately below paragraph 2.1 and it says there at point one it is recommended that tmo confirms if any of the lifts installed of the building or either firefighter or evacuation lifts as required by building regulations

02:50:51 regulations as the building is over 18 meters high had you been asked to confirm if any of the lifts installed were fire fighter or evacuation list

02:51:02 no uh the minutes of the meeting indicate that you discuss the differences between different types of lift can you remember now whether that had in fact been discussed

02:51:12 discussed i don't recall that there is no reference here to consideration by you of the precise requirements of a

02:51:25 by you of the precise requirements of a firefighting lift before this meeting can you recall whether you consulted the relevant standards

02:51:32 standards all right i didn't no i'm not aware of the meeting i'm not aware of salvas and i can't remember that at all well you would have been aware of the meeting you just can't remember it is that your evidence because you attended the meeting

02:51:43 meeting i can't remember it uh is your evidence that you neither you nor the

02:51:50 nor the to the best of your knowledge the tmo received any advice from salvus regarding lifts that's correct now in the third line of the paragraph immediately below the box

02:52:02 immediately below the box uh the minutes record that you concluded that most the borough's lifts meet the majority

02:52:07 majority but not all of the criteria which defined a firefighting lift had you carried out an audit or examined your records in order to come to that conclusion no so on what basis did you reach that

02:52:19 no so on what basis did you reach that conclusion i did i don't remember reaching that conclusion

02:52:24 there is no record of you correcting these minutes so i don't recollect them in itself

02:52:36 do we know what date that was sorry can you go back to the 23rd of february 2010 no i was about then but i don't remember that no and we see in the action rc so you and jw

02:52:48 we see in the action rc so you and jw janice ray to document the criteria that the tmo's firefighting lifts meet and advise salvas so this can be included in future action plans um first of all your previous evidence was that

02:53:00 previous evidence was that uh no lifts were firefighting lifts and they were fireman's lifts if so can you help us to why the phrase firefighting lifts is used here no i can't it tends to speak to a

02:53:12 no i can't it tends to speak to a fundamental confusion as the type of lifts are in the tirmo stock doesn't it yes even though it said there that that you and janet were able to advise salva so this can be included in

02:53:23 advise salva so this can be included in future action plans is your evidence still that you have no knowledge of salvas no is that a no that's a no sorry could we go to cst

02:53:34 sorry could we go to cst quadruple zero one two six nine which is an email chain from the 3rd of march 2010

02:53:40 2010 so 10 days or so after this meeting and it's an email correspondence between janice ray and andrew finesse and you together with adrian bowman russell thompson and

02:53:51 adrian bowman russell thompson and lornette pemberton are copied in now the first email in the chain is at the bottom of page one and it's from janice ray i should say it starts at the bottom of page one

02:54:03 starts at the bottom of page one and it says they're further to the discussion at the recent progress meeting robin and i have put together the following information which relates to tmo lifts serving blocks over 18 meters in height

02:54:18 now we see at the bottom then if we go over the page that janice ray set sent information regarding which firefighting lift criteria that the tmo lifts satisfied if we go over the page

02:54:33 lifts satisfied if we go over the page we de-amplify so we see the entire page

02:54:38 do you remember helping her complete that information no i was just looking on the previous it spoke about robin's colleague did you go back so it may have been my

02:54:50 did you go back so it may have been my colleague i don't know who my colleague was at that time well come come on to the next page hang on before we leave sorry i don't remember okay having anything to do with this opening paragraph of this email further

02:55:02 opening paragraph of this email further discussion at the recent progress meeting robin and i have put together the following information next page

02:55:12 andy robin's colleague is currently going through the asset register to identify the location of the lifts so it wouldn't have been me or whoever in relation to that point

02:55:26 mr kalani this is this i don't think this is that complex can we go back over to the page okay look at the bottom of the email

02:55:34 janice ray quite clearly says that you and she had put together the following information and set out there is i think nine specific items do you remember providing or contributing to the provision of the

02:55:45 contributing to the provision of the information i don't know

02:55:52 can you help us as to why under the heading firefighting lifts you never corrected janice ray to say these are fireman's lifts not firefighting lifts no i don't

02:56:04 firefighting lifts no i don't remember the email i don't know why i don't remember in there why didn't you i don't remember you sure about that i can't remember why

02:56:16 you sure about that i can't remember why i

02:56:17 i didn't correct it yes so even though on your evidence all the lifts in the turbo stock were fireman's lifts

02:56:25 lifts you never sought to correct janice ray on an important point of classification of the relevant left i don't recollect that specific either well it may be that what janice ray had

02:56:36 well it may be that what janice ray had said she would produce would be a list of the uh characteristics of firefighting diffs which were to be found

02:56:46 found in the tma's lifts and if you look through her list there we just move on to the next page we've got car size on first page and

02:56:58 we've got car size on first page and then

02:56:59 then power supply communication control switch

02:57:04 switch landing doors but not i uh escape hatch in the roof of the car now do you remember having any discussion with janice ray about

02:57:16 janice ray about the characteristics of the list in the tmo stock

02:57:20 tmo stock i don't but what i was flagging up the top line

02:57:23 top line it says andy robin's colleague is currently going through the asset register

02:57:28 register yeah but that's only to identify the locations i think you'll find i thought she says anyway no i don't remember that all right thank you so

02:57:39 all right thank you so those are all the questions that i have um mr client just leaves me to thank you for attending to give evidence today yes well mr clark thank you very much for coming along to give us your

02:57:50 for coming along to give us your assistance we've really benefited from hearing your evidence uh thanks so thank you very much indeed and um

02:57:56 and um that's it you're now free to go thank you i hope i've been of assistance yes you certainly have thank you very much thank you

02:58:14 thank you mr kenya uh now do you have any other witnesses today no sir that concludes the evidence for today

02:58:21 for today um we had uh made preliminary investigation to see whether tomorrow's timetable could be brought forward unfortunately for logistical and other practical reasons that was not possible right um so um tomorrow we will start

02:58:35 right um so um tomorrow we will start with mr howkins who is the expert retained by the inquiry yes good thank you very much well in that case we'll break there for today and we'll resume tomorrow at 10 o'clock

02:58:44 o'clock thanks good thank you very much and until tomorrow